PHO vs PHA

[Ripcord22A]

Nope I was asking if you could name a PHO Lodge WITH unbroken lineage to African 459. Second as for the UGLE o believe you mean Premiere GL, and they stated Freemasonry as we know it so they made the rules

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[Bill Lins]

I do not mean Hiram Abiff Grand Lodge of modern and exquisite Freemasonries of the world

Now that's funny right there!

 

[tldubb]

I think of like this if your GL cannot trace there lineage to Grand Lodges of England, Scotland or Ireland...”Houston we have a problem”...


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[tldubb]

The picture below is from 300th Anniversary of freemasonry Grand Masters from around the World with UGLE HRH GrandMaster the Duke of Kent.

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[bupton52]

Greetings, Are you asking me can I name 1 Grand Lodge (PHO) that do not have an lineage back to African Lodge 459. My next question is that you attempt to answer the question yourself by stating that I cannot. My question to you is, have you done extensive research on this subject. I have been doing some research on this subject due to the history that exist amongst The African American Masonic Family as it relates to the organization as a whole. Some people tend to follow without thoroughly researching the topic for themselves. I have family members who are in both groups and I here the history from different perspectives. I also have read several proceedings that detail certain movements within jurisdictions that did not agree with The National Grand Lodge for certain reasons. Some motives was sovereignty, leadership, rebellion, and a few others. Most of the Grand Lodges that came into existence was a result of the National Grand Lodge. At that time there was no distinction in regards to PHA and PHO. It was one body. I recently viewed a masonic discussion on Phoenix Masonry that discussed the lineage of PHO with Alton Roundtree as its guest. He stated that "In 2012 at The Conference of Grand Masters (PHA) stated that the (PHO)National Grand Lodge can trace their lineage back to African Lodge #459. and they had continuity of operations. Now they may not be recognized but regular. I have more proceedings to read as well as producing a work entitled Parallel Proceedings during that time. Now as far as regularity amongst Grand Lodges, I think that we should research the irregularity amongst the start of some Mainstream Grand Lodges and their history. Its not that quite square and exact. This is an ongoing research study that I'm pursuing and if you have any proceedings that you would like to provide or any documentation to bring forth then please produce your work. Even The UGLE has a distorted beginning with its history are you aware of that.

This isn’t remotely true.


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[bupton52]

This isn’t remotely true.


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Roundtree has a flawed view of the continuity of the NGL. At this point, with all of the information that has been presented to him, he’s just selling books.


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[Kenneth Munn]

Roundtree has a flawed view of the continuity of the NGL. At this point, with all of the information that has been presented to him, he’s just selling books.


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Greetings my brother, I would like to know what is not true about Brother Roundtree works and what is not remotely true about the information that I posted. Mr. Roundtree is not my only source, but I mentioned him because he obviously has some facts in regards to the NGL not shutting down. I found that to be very interesting. I've been doing research on this topic off and on for quite sometime and recently decided to put forth more time in finding out information leading up to the dissension that took place with several Grand lodges as well as cross referencing proceedings prior to and after 1888. There are some proceedings that I would like to reference regarding the leave and how some jurisdictions that left the NGL wanted recognition from neighboring jurisdictions to maintain unity within the order. If you could post some of your research on the topic regarding your statements, I think it would be historically helpful.I intend to research the history because that is something I enjoy doing and often times when travelling you just can't take anybody's word on a topic as historical as this one.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Here is the cliff notes version:

The National Grand Lodge (NGL) was meant to be like a COGM to stop clandestine freemasons and spread "negro" freemasonry. Once they started to try to exercise authority over GLs, those GLs started separating themselves (becoming independent like they are today) By the time the convention of 1878 came in Delaware, hardly anybody showed up. There wasn't enough representation to even open the session (quorum) Convention after that, same thing. GL's had pulled away and became independent, thus returning sovereignty to the State GL and not having a GM over state GMs like the NGL is set up. The NGL even started putting replacement GLs in some of the states where the existing regular PHGLs are today! The structure of the NGL/PHO is irregular. The fact that they continued to operate after dying is clandestine. Also the fact the National Grand Master (NGM) put out Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) that include goals to "Establish recognition with Modern Free Masons, Scottish Rite Masons and International Masons." ,which are known clandestine organizations, makes it even less likely that the NGL/PHO will ever be considered a regular organization or recognized by the rest of the masonic community.

It just seems unfair to those members who respectfully practice the craft and exemplify brotherhood. It is 2020 some sort of reconciliation has to come about. Simple out we are stronger together than we are apart. A lesson that in my opinion the black community my community tend to miss.

 

[Bill Lins]

I disagree that it is "unfair". Once a man learns that he has joined a clandestine order, avenues exist for him to rectify his situation. He can either go to PHA or to the other legitimate Grand Lodge of whatever state in which he resides, such as our good Brother Upton has done. Or he can stay put & enjoy the fellowship of the group he is in, but miss out on the benefits of regular & recognized Masonry. It's his call.

 

[Thomas Stright]

It is 2020 some sort of reconciliation has to come about.

Problem I see is that most clandestine PHA lodges are operated for profit...

 

[bupton52]

Problem I see is that most clandestine PHA lodges are operated for profit...

There is no such thing as a clandestine PHA lodge. Those are just clandestine lodges that have predominantly black members.


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[bupton52]

Problem I see is that most clandestine PHA lodges are operated for profit...

But to your point, that’s exactly why most clandestine organizations exist. Someone is trying to make some money.


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[Brother JC]

“Bobs Grand Lodge of Pyramid [Scheme] Masonry, Inc!”

 

[Thomas Stright]

There is no such thing as a clandestine PHA lodge.

Any grand lodge/lodge not recognized by The Grand Lodge of Texas is clandestine to me...

 

[bupton52]

Any grand lodge/lodge not recognized by The Grand Lodge of Texas is clandestine to me...

At least you won’t be able to say that no one ever told you.

Let’s just use this situation. If the UGLE withdraws recognition from the Grand Lodge of TX, is Texas now clandestine?


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[Thomas Stright]

At least you won’t be able to say that no one ever told you.

Let’s just use this situation. If the UGLE withdraws recognition from the Grand Lodge of TX, is Texas now clandestine?

Not to Me, I'm a member of TGLoT, not of UGLE.

 

[bupton52]

Not to Me, I'm a member of TGLoT, not of UGLE.

So then, like I said before, there are no Clandestine Prince Hall Grand Lodges. They are are regular regardless of recognition status.


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[bupton52]

Problem I see is that most clandestine PHA lodges are operated for profit...

For clarification, are you saying that regular Prince Hall Grand Lodges are operating for profit or are you incorrectly assigning the predominantly black spurious organizations the name Prince Hall?


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[Thomas Stright]

For clarification, are you saying that regular Prince Hall Grand Lodges are operating for profit or are you incorrectly assigning the predominantly black spurious organizations the name Prince Hall?

100% of men that I have met that said they were Prince Hall Masons were members of Grand Lodges located here in Texas other than The Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas located in Fort Worth.... Like I said Clandestine.

 

[bupton52]

100% of men that I have met that said they were Prince Hall Masons were members of Grand Lodges located here in Texas other than The Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas located in Fort Worth.... Like I said Clandestine.

Well they lied to you. That’s so strange because normally those guys proudly separate themselves from being Prince Hall masons. Either way, I’m trying to help you understand. While it sounds like you have a bad experience with some clandestine folks, in no way is what you are saying correct.


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