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PHO vs PHA

F

freemasonpha

Registered User
Thank you Brother for responding but I don't believe I was misdirected.

In Canada the A was dropped long ago. I understand PHO is clandestine and PHA in the US is regular, however, in Canada PH is used by the regular Prince Hall Lodge. The Lodge I'm a member of is the only Lodge in Canada to have worked continuously since 1866 and are the last of the Prince Hall Masons in Canada to own our building. More on the subject can we found here: http://tsmr.org/2006-jenkyns-phm.pdf

The post made here ( http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.ca/2008/07/grand-lodge-of-ontario-recognizes-mw.html ) mentions the GL linked below.

We are regular and use PH.

https://www.princehallonj.org/

I was just asking if this was a regular thing in the US and after posting I see it is.

Thank you again.
 
Last edited:
Bro. David F. Hill

Bro. David F. Hill

David F. Hill
Premium Member
A quick lesson, both PHA and PHO are regular because they can trace their lineage back to African Lodge 459. The difference is that PHA is recognized while PHO is not. At one point all Grand Lodges were under the National Compact but then the Grand Lodges split from the Compact because of dissatisfaction with the leadership and a wish to be sovereign (State's Rights). Anything other than these two are clandestine. I find that many people don't know the story about the split nor do they know what groups are clandestine.

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Glen Cook

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Bro. David F. Hill said:
A quick lesson, both PHA and PHO are regular because they can trace their lineage back to African Lodge 459. The difference is that PHA is recognized while PHO is not. At one point all Grand Lodges were under the National Compact but then the Grand Lodges split from the Compact because of dissatisfaction with the leadership and a wish to be sovereign (State's Rights). Anything other than these two are clandestine. I find that many people don't know the story about the split nor do they know what groups are clandestine.

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Click to expand...
I have am somewhat conversant with the National Compact history. PHO is not considered regular by CGMNA and this is the first time I’ve heard a PHA Grand Lodge indicate otherwise.

I don’t wish to disturb the harmony of the list, and so will invite you to discuss the issue at the rather harshly named FB page https://www.facebook.com/groups/267483426933994/
 
aceumus

aceumus

Registered User
Bro. David F. Hill said:
A quick lesson, both PHA and PHO are regular because they can trace their lineage back to African Lodge 459. The difference is that PHA is recognized while PHO is not. At one point all Grand Lodges were under the National Compact but then the Grand Lodges split from the Compact because of dissatisfaction with the leadership and a wish to be sovereign (State's Rights). Anything other than these two are clandestine. I find that many people don't know the story about the split nor do they know what groups are clandestine.

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Click to expand...


This is totally incorrect information. PHO is NOT regular because they do not have the same origins as PHA. PHO began through a a convention and the NGL has never had any legal Masonic authority. It's clandestine which is why they were never provided recognition although they have requested recognition several times throughout it's history. Please afford me more time to go into depth of he NGL history as it relates to Masonic jurisprudence.


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K

Kenneth Munn

Registered User
aceumus said:
This is totally incorrect information. PHO is NOT regular because they do not have the same origins as PHA. PHO began through a a convention and the NGL has never had any legal Masonic authority. It's clandestine which is why they were never provided recognition although they have requested recognition several times throughout it's history. Please afford me more time to go into depth of he NGL history as it relates to Masonic jurisprudence.


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Greetings to the group and Peace and Blessings to you all. PHO is Not regular because they do not have the same origins as PHA. Will you care to elaborate as well as illustrate this point.
 
K

Kenneth Munn

Registered User
Greetings to the group and Peace and Blessings to you all. PHO is not regular because they do not have the same origins as PHA. Will you care to elaborate as well as illustrate this point.
 
Ripcord22A

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
It's quite simple actually can you name one pho Lodge that has an unbroken lineage back to African Lodge 459? You cannot and therefore they are not regular and or recognized. Regardless of what some may think there are zero Grand lodges within the United States that recognize Pho as a legitimate branch of Freemasonry. And by Grand Lodge I mean Grand Lodge of whatever state or most worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of whatever state. I do not mean Hiram Abiff Grand Lodge of modern and exquisite Freemasonries of the world

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K

Kenneth Munn

Registered User
Ripcord22A said:
It's quite simple actually can you name one pho Lodge that has an unbroken lineage back to African Lodge 459? You cannot and therefore they are not regular and or recognized. Regardless of what some may think there are zero Grand lodges within the United States that recognize Pho as a legitimate branch of Freemasonry. And by Grand Lodge I mean Grand Lodge of whatever state or most worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of whatever state. I do not mean Hiram Abiff Grand Lodge of modern and exquisite Freemasonries of the world

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Greetings, Are you asking me can I name 1 Grand Lodge (PHO) that do not have an lineage back to African Lodge 459. My next question is that you attempt to answer the question yourself by stating that I cannot. My question to you is, have you done extensive research on this subject. I have been doing some research on this subject due to the history that exist amongst The African American Masonic Family as it relates to the organization as a whole. Some people tend to follow without thoroughly researching the topic for themselves. I have family members who are in both groups and I here the history from different perspectives. I also have read several proceedings that detail certain movements within jurisdictions that did not agree with The National Grand Lodge for certain reasons. Some motives was sovereignty, leadership, rebellion, and a few others. Most of the Grand Lodges that came into existence was a result of the National Grand Lodge. At that time there was no distinction in regards to PHA and PHO. It was one body. I recently viewed a masonic discussion on Phoenix Masonry that discussed the lineage of PHO with Alton Roundtree as its guest. He stated that "In 2012 at The Conference of Grand Masters (PHA) stated that the (PHO)National Grand Lodge can trace their lineage back to African Lodge #459. and they had continuity of operations. Now they may not be recognized but regular. I have more proceedings to read as well as producing a work entitled Parallel Proceedings during that time. Now as far as regularity amongst Grand Lodges, I think that we should research the irregularity amongst the start of some Mainstream Grand Lodges and their history. Its not that quite square and exact. This is an ongoing research study that I'm pursuing and if you have any proceedings that you would like to provide or any documentation to bring forth then please produce your work. Even The UGLE has a distorted beginning with its history are you aware of that.
 
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