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Bill Lins
Guest
While I have no doubt that my wife shares my feelings about Masonry, neither I nor my children consider the fact that she is of a different gender than am I to be an "inconsequential difference".
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Women Freemasons
- Thread starter Blake Bowden
- Start date
While I have no doubt that my wife shares my feelings about Masonry, neither I nor my children consider the fact that she is of a different gender than am I to be an "inconsequential difference".
jwhoff
Premium Member
Rather, you seem to have chosen a consequential difference. Which, I'm very sure your children agree most heartedly with. After all us guys, for the most part, are short on maternal instincts.
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JohnnyFlotsam
Premium Member
Sadly, these are exactly the kind of disingenuous and "totally missed the point" responses that I expected.
Surely we aren't really arguing that, when it comes to an individual's ability to identify, value and pursue Masonic ideals, gender is of any consequence whatsoever. Right?
Surely we aren't going to lean solely on the landmarks of this or that jurisdiction to define an "us" and a "them" for the purpose of setting the them apart as something lesser. Right.
Surely we aren't really arguing that, when it comes to an individual's ability to identify, value and pursue Masonic ideals, gender is of any consequence whatsoever. Right?
Surely we aren't going to lean solely on the landmarks of this or that jurisdiction to define an "us" and a "them" for the purpose of setting the them apart as something lesser. Right.
Beathard
Premium Member
Yes we are. It is a fraternity. By definition a male organization. I believe that most masons joined a fraternity and not a couples dinner club. I believe women can have the same moral and ethical qualities in their own organization that I will not run out and seek to join.
I find it amazing that with all the talk about woman in masons we have no women on the site complaining. It is only the men that are always complaining about everything that keep bringing it up. If one is desperate for female companionship from a moral and ethical woman, go to church or eastern star.
I find it amazing that with all the talk about woman in masons we have no women on the site complaining. It is only the men that are always complaining about everything that keep bringing it up. If one is desperate for female companionship from a moral and ethical woman, go to church or eastern star.
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Bill Lins
Guest
Not "lesser" but "different". And, no, by definition women cannot be "brothers" nor belong to a fraternity. If they wish to be a part of a group which espouses Masonic principles, they can always join OES.
This has already happened, Women are being taught the principles of masonry in groups that are themselves Freemasons just not the same lineage as our fraternity. If anyone feels the need to place a right or wrong title on one or the other more power to them it does not change my group in the least unless I parade around saying mine is better in some way or another. I have my lodge others will have theirs. Is variety not the spice of life?
Benton
Premium Member
Well, I think most people understand that there are female jurisdictions, and they aren't going to go away if we close our eyes and stick our fingers in our ears.
I think the real question becomes, "Should we allow them in our jurisdiction?", to which I think most would answer with a resounding no. Not trying to speak for everyone, but having females in the lodge would change the dynamic significantly. Not saying it would be in a negative way, but it does change the dynamic. In college, I belonged to both a coed fraternity and a true blue all male fraternity. While I greatly enjoyed both, the experience was certainly different in the coed fraternity.
So, I think everyone acknowledges that there will be female and mixed jurisdictions. They won't go away, and frankly, I don't think anyone is fool enough to 'lead a charge' to get rid of them. What all regular Grand Lodges must decide is whether or not to recognize them, and if so, whether or not to allow visitation. Or I suppose whether or not to become mixed themselves. But if the GLoT ever did that, I'd probably demit. If I wanted to join a mixed organization, there are plenty out there. Not what I signed up for.
I think the real question becomes, "Should we allow them in our jurisdiction?", to which I think most would answer with a resounding no. Not trying to speak for everyone, but having females in the lodge would change the dynamic significantly. Not saying it would be in a negative way, but it does change the dynamic. In college, I belonged to both a coed fraternity and a true blue all male fraternity. While I greatly enjoyed both, the experience was certainly different in the coed fraternity.
So, I think everyone acknowledges that there will be female and mixed jurisdictions. They won't go away, and frankly, I don't think anyone is fool enough to 'lead a charge' to get rid of them. What all regular Grand Lodges must decide is whether or not to recognize them, and if so, whether or not to allow visitation. Or I suppose whether or not to become mixed themselves. But if the GLoT ever did that, I'd probably demit. If I wanted to join a mixed organization, there are plenty out there. Not what I signed up for.
Michael Hatley
Premium Member
I have similar oppositions to women in freemasonry as I do for women in the infantry.
I'm left of center, politically. Solidly so. Carried an ACLU card for a number of years.
But I am a practical man underneath it.
I served in the infantry, and I know the culture. I can see clearly that the tensions from a bunch of different directions would absolutely diminish the fighting effectiveness. Not just sexual relations, but in over protectiveness and the natural divisiveness that will come from courting favor, spoken and unspoken, acted upon and not acted upon, etc. I think we are all smart enough to understand that what I'm talking about isn't exaggerated or imaginary, but very real.
It would be divisive. And the infantry is a place where unity is priority.
Freemasonry is one of those very, very, very rare places, like the infantry - where unity must be the priority over everything else in order to accomplish its stated mission.
And in my view, that central mission is to make better men. In order to accomplish that, we must not have the distraction that will come with integration of the sexes. If we are to be able to lay bare our souls to one another, to be absolutely, 100% honest and on the level with each other, then no.
Now - separate lodges that are all female, with visitation between them? I'd support that, down the road. After the PH division is sorted for well and true.
But co-ed lodges, no. For the reasons I've stated and others. Skin color, religion, and all of those things are insignificant in comparison. Not because I view women as lesser, incapable, or any of that. But because the stated goal must take precedence, and because I believe having the majority of freemasonry made co-ed would reduce its effectiveness in a big way. The mission first.
Just my opinions.
I'm left of center, politically. Solidly so. Carried an ACLU card for a number of years.
But I am a practical man underneath it.
I served in the infantry, and I know the culture. I can see clearly that the tensions from a bunch of different directions would absolutely diminish the fighting effectiveness. Not just sexual relations, but in over protectiveness and the natural divisiveness that will come from courting favor, spoken and unspoken, acted upon and not acted upon, etc. I think we are all smart enough to understand that what I'm talking about isn't exaggerated or imaginary, but very real.
It would be divisive. And the infantry is a place where unity is priority.
Freemasonry is one of those very, very, very rare places, like the infantry - where unity must be the priority over everything else in order to accomplish its stated mission.
And in my view, that central mission is to make better men. In order to accomplish that, we must not have the distraction that will come with integration of the sexes. If we are to be able to lay bare our souls to one another, to be absolutely, 100% honest and on the level with each other, then no.
Now - separate lodges that are all female, with visitation between them? I'd support that, down the road. After the PH division is sorted for well and true.
But co-ed lodges, no. For the reasons I've stated and others. Skin color, religion, and all of those things are insignificant in comparison. Not because I view women as lesser, incapable, or any of that. But because the stated goal must take precedence, and because I believe having the majority of freemasonry made co-ed would reduce its effectiveness in a big way. The mission first.
Just my opinions.
Jacob Johnson
Registered User
I like this. I had never even considered that option.
Mike Cameron
Registered User
Thank You!!! This is a fraternity!! I am amazed sometimes how often we consider totaly turning Masonry into something different in an attempt to gain membership.
Frater Cliff Porter
Premium Member
Well, given that the only thing we can control is ourselves....then, I answered doesn't matter.
I like male only Masonry.
I have no beef with feminine or mixed Masonry.
If you read "Haunted Chambers" it becomes clear that there were woman Masons whether we think there should be or not.
What I don't understand is why we would be so vehemently against the female or mixed orders. They do their own thing and are just people trying to get together to help each other and to grow.
We may not consider it Masonry, but they are welcome to call it what they like and I don't see how it hurts us.
I gave a speech at an untyled event at the Grand Lodge for the Co-Masons here in the United States. I was well received, treated very kindly, and was accompanied by the Deputy Grand Master of my state....a nice night.
I don't want to run out and become a Co-Mason, don't believe I am going to Masonic hell, and didn't see a single person I believed to be the devil with boobs trying to temp good regular Masons from their Craft....just good ol' fashion people trying to be better than they were when they joined.
I like male only Masonry.
I have no beef with feminine or mixed Masonry.
If you read "Haunted Chambers" it becomes clear that there were woman Masons whether we think there should be or not.
What I don't understand is why we would be so vehemently against the female or mixed orders. They do their own thing and are just people trying to get together to help each other and to grow.
We may not consider it Masonry, but they are welcome to call it what they like and I don't see how it hurts us.
I gave a speech at an untyled event at the Grand Lodge for the Co-Masons here in the United States. I was well received, treated very kindly, and was accompanied by the Deputy Grand Master of my state....a nice night.
I don't want to run out and become a Co-Mason, don't believe I am going to Masonic hell, and didn't see a single person I believed to be the devil with boobs trying to temp good regular Masons from their Craft....just good ol' fashion people trying to be better than they were when they joined.
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Mike Cameron
Registered User
Sure it matters. We are the oldest Fraternal organization in the world. I know that there were women in and around Masonry throughout history. However, these were isolated incidents. There is a big difference when we start allowing it for any woman. You don't see sororities opening there doors to men. Come on guys there is rainbow, OES, and other organizations through which the ladies can make a difference. Call me a purist but I think we are losing our identity somewhat. Just my humble opinion.
Txmason
Registered User
Bro. Cameron,
I agree with you. Plus if you join the Shrine your lady can also participate. Just like OES and Rainbow etc., masonry should be kept as a male organization. After all we are a fraternity. Having said that, I am grateful for OES and them helping us as we help them.
I agree with you. Plus if you join the Shrine your lady can also participate. Just like OES and Rainbow etc., masonry should be kept as a male organization. After all we are a fraternity. Having said that, I am grateful for OES and them helping us as we help them.
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Bill Lins
Guest
Ain't gonna happen.
MikeMay
Premium Member
You obviously haven't seen some of the Women Marines I served with... LOL!
choppersteve03
Premium Member
No,nnnnooooooo.