GLofCA - Recognition clean up - Same agreement everywhere

[Warrior1256]

I will say though, having been to a NC Prince Hall Third Degree..you WILL notice some differences...and depending on which lodge you go to some of them may be shocking...I don't feel computable going into much detail since this isn't a Tyled form but anyone who's been to one should know what I'm alluding to

I would love to attend a PHA meeting and rituals but, although PHA and F&AM have mutual recognition, we don't yet have inter-visitation here in Kentucky.

 

[MRichard]

Not exactly. There are Jurisdictions that have MUTUAL RECOGNITION, but no intervisitation.
I believe that both parties would have to participate in the Recognition process, but visitation would be a negotiated component of Mutual Recognition, it can be a part of it or not.

In my estimation, Recognition without intervisitation handicaps the Mutual Recognition.

I would have to disagree. It is easier to get and the PHA jurisdiction gets recognition from the UGLE. First get recognition, then address visitation later. It really depends on the jurisdiction. If it was a simple matter, it would have already happened in the states without recognition or the ones with recognition without visitation. Look at Grand Master Curtis (MWPHGLTX) discussion on getting recognition in Texas. It starts at 26 minute mark:

 

[Warrior1256]

I would have to disagree. It is easier to get and the PHA jurisdiction gets recognition from the UGLE. First get recognition, then address visitation later. It really depends on the jurisdiction. If it was a simple matter, it would have already happened in the states without recognition or the ones with recognition without visitation.

Agreed. Mutual recognition is better than nothing and, hopefully, gets the ball rolling to eventual visitation rights between us.

 

[Bloke]

I would have to disagree. It is easier to get and the PHA jurisdiction gets recognition from the UGLE. First get recognition, then address visitation later. It really depends on the jurisdiction. If it was a simple matter, it would have already happened in the states without recognition or the ones with recognition without visitation. Look at Grand Master Curtis (MWPHGLTX) discussion on getting recognition in Texas. It starts at 26 minute mark:

Thanks, had a brief listen.. the message is its long game but you will get there and that GM sounds like he's navigating the waters..

 

[MasonicAdept]

Let's look at this historically and factually, NOT EMOTIONALLY or getting ourselves trapped in the "politically correct" answer.

1. African Lodge No. 459 had a bona fide charter from the Grand Lodge of England. The same source of the charter that formed the St. John's Provincial GL.

2. St. John's Provincial Grand Lodge were the initiators of the formation of the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts in 1792.

3. John Rowe (Provincial Grand Master of the St. John's Provincial Grand Lodge) issued the permit that indicates that St. John's PGL or at least their Provincial Grand Master RECOGNIZED African Lodge No. 1 (1781-1782).

4. African Lodge No. 459 was not invited to be a participating Lodge in the formation of the GL of Massachusetts, even though they were "recognized" by PERMIT. This was the FIRST DOCUMENTED and NOTABLE Separate but Equal moves even with "recognition" in place.

5. If the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts would have invited African Lodge to take part in her formation, there would be NO SUCH THING AS PRINCE HALL. There would be ONE GL PER STATE.

6. The recognition variable was a means of dealing with the "Negro Masonry" issue without allowing them into the Lodges of predominately white chartered Lodges.

7. While recognition could be a FIRST PHASE TO WHAT SHOULD BE INEVITABLE IN FREEMASONRY, whether the hold up is PHA or Grand Lodge of State, recognition was a means to keep the Grand Lodges separate but equal.

You don't believe me, read the resolutions of every proposition for Recognition, it will state these words:

"...desire to remain sovereign and independent within themselves."

While recognition may set each Grand Lodge as equal, it still remains SEPARATE (irregardless of which Grand Lodge is the hold up).

We cannot act as if recognition brought the Grand Lodges into unity or oneness, I have too much documentation to the contrary...

Jurisdictions differ and the relationships are different...The strategic plan begins with actually UTILIZING MUTUAL RECOGNITION and INTERVISITATION where it exists...Where it has existed, then put DUAL MEMBERSHIP ON THE FLOOR...

This is a start...

 

[MRichard]

We all have to be careful to not let our emotions get the best of us. I understand the history of Prince Hall and the problems in the Southern states especially and WV. You can't just wave a wand and undo what has happened. You also have to understand the dynamics of the remaining states that you are dealing with and doing what is best for your jurisdiction in the short and long term. There are problems on both sides. But we went through this in Texas already and we are still dealing with issues. It is not a simple matter.

Let's look at the states with recognition and visitation. Most PHA' jurisictions don't allow plural or dual memberships (referring to another grand lodge). That is a restrictive policy and if you could be a member of both grand lodges, then do you really still want consolidation? Each grand lodge is sovereign and with different rules & regulations.

I am in favor of plural and dual memberships. I don't see consolidation as a viable option but you never know.

 

[MasonicAdept]

We all have to be careful to not let our emotions get the best of us. I understand the history of Prince Hall and the problems in the Southern states especially and WV. You can't just wave a wand and undo what has happened. You also have to understand the dynamics of the remaining states that you are dealing with and doing what is best for your jurisdiction in the short and long term. There are problems on both sides. But we went through this in Texas already and we are still dealing with issues. It is not a simple matter.

Let's look at the states with recognition and visitation. Most PHA' jurisictions don't allow plural or dual memberships (referring to another grand lodge). That is a restrictive policy and if you could be a member of both grand lodges, then do you really still want consolidation? Each grand lodge is sovereign and with different rules & regulations.

I am in favor of plural and dual memberships. I don't see consolidation as a viable option but you never know.

For some reason, we would rather be politically correct, than really asking the questions that will brings us more accurate answers.

Nobody is saying wave a wand, please stop MISINTERPRETING simple statements. The statement gave a starting place for consolidation, which is the MORALLY RIGHT and FACTUALLY CORRECT MEANS of righting a wrong. We are well aware that it takes time, but we can't just continue to justify the way it is by saying we understand Prince Hall history, which means "why blacks are mistrusting of whites" which translate into the politics we see happening right now.

There is nothing emotional about my post, so I am confused on how you got emotion out of it (kanye shrug).

I think some folk believe it easier to leave things the way they are than actually rolling up their sleeves and initiating some sort of action.

Facts are Facts...

My next book is Separate But Equal, and I have compiled enough interviews to be able to expose much of the misconceptions and myths we pawn off as reasons why we see what we see in American Freemasonry and why we should leave it where it is and call it UNITY...We need to stop the hypocrisy!

 

[Bloke]

For some reason, we would rather be politically correct, than really asking the questions that will brings us more accurate answers.

Nobody is saying wave a wand, please stop MISINTERPRETING simple statements. The statement gave a starting place for consolidation, which is the MORALLY RIGHT and FACTUALLY CORRECT MEANS of righting a wrong. We are well aware that it takes time, but we can't just continue to justify the way it is by saying we understand Prince Hall history, which means "why blacks are mistrusting of whites" which translate into the politics we see happening right now.

There is nothing emotional about my post, so I am confused on how you got emotion out of it (kanye shrug).

I think some folk believe it easier to leave things the way they are than actually rolling up their sleeves and initiating some sort of action.

Facts are Facts...

My next book is Separate But Equal, and I have compiled enough interviews to be able to expose much of the misconceptions and myths we pawn off as reasons why we see what we see in American Freemasonry and why we should leave it where it is and call it UNITY...We need to stop the hypocrisy!

I think the "you" was "we" in "You just can't wave a wand..."... There's one bro here using CAPs *smiles*.... but it good to see positive passion on a topic.

For me. with the ignorance of distance, the issue is you have two sovereign bodies in each state who have members who could be visiting each other if they wished..

For many of us.. the focus is not what happened last century (much less in the 1700's) but the possibility of the current times. The reality is, there is a lot of masons from both traditions who would like to be visiting each other but have trouble doing so. What happened in the 1700's and 1800's while very interestingly historically, it's moot when it comes to visiting. Is that not right ?

 

[Ripcord22A]

irregardless...

Really......regardless....lol (grammar Nazi voice)

then put DUAL MEMBERSHIP ON THE FLOOR...

This is a start...

Every GLoState that I am aware of allows dual and plural membership. I am only aware of one PHA GL that allows it. To my understanding PHA doesn't even allow a brother to be a member of more then one lodge in his district let alone across state lines......

We need to stop the hypocrisy!

Are you saying that its PHAs fault that it is still happening?

 

[MasonicAdept]

The reality is, there is a lot of masons from both traditions who would like to be visiting each other but have trouble doing so. What happened in the 1700's and 1800's while very interestingly historically, it's moot when it comes to visiting. Is that not right ?

It should be, but in some demographics it is an issue, especially in Southern States.
My point was that many jurisdictions share mutual recognition and intervisitation, but NEVER really apply the privilege and right. Thus, the lack of communication creates barriers and misconceptions that could be addressed and dispelled if they just FELLOWSHIPPED.

Are you saying that its PHAs fault that it is still happening?

No, I am saying that it is BOTH sides fault that it is still happening.

 

[MasonicAdept]

Really......regardless....lol (grammar Nazi voice)

@Ripcord22A Out of all that that I posted, that is all you could pull from it?

SMH

 

[Ripcord22A]

@Ripcord22A Out of all that that I posted, that is all you could pull from it?

SMH

no that's not all I pulled from it but that was the only thing I could pull from it to lighten the mood.
Irregardless, Could care less, same difference and other phrases like that are some of my pet pevees even though I am the furthest thing from an English Major.

 

[MasonicAdept]

no that's not all I pulled from it but that was the only thing I could pull from it to lighten the mood.
Irregardless, Could care less, same difference and other phrases like that are some of my pet pevees even though I am the furthest thing from an English Major.

Interesting...

 

[MRichard]

For some reason, we would rather be politically correct, than really asking the questions that will brings us more accurate answers.

Nobody is saying wave a wand, please stop MISINTERPRETING simple statements. The statement gave a starting place for consolidation, which is the MORALLY RIGHT and FACTUALLY CORRECT MEANS of righting a wrong. We are well aware that it takes time, but we can't just continue to justify the way it is by saying we understand Prince Hall history, which means "why blacks are mistrusting of whites" which translate into the politics we see happening right now.

There is nothing emotional about my post, so I am confused on how you got emotion out of it (kanye shrug).

I think some folk believe it easier to leave things the way they are than actually rolling up their sleeves and initiating some sort of action.

Facts are Facts...

My next book is Separate But Equal, and I have compiled enough interviews to be able to expose much of the misconceptions and myths we pawn off as reasons why we see what we see in American Freemasonry and why we should leave it where it is and call it UNITY...We need to stop the hypocrisy!

I mentioned emotion cause you brought it up initially. I think we can agree to disagree with arguing back and forth about it. You do tend to get a tad defensive at times but that is just my opinion. Frankly, I am a fan of your work and will continue to be although we may not always see everything "eye to eye".

 

[Bloke]

.....Frankly, I am a fan of your work and will continue to be although we may not always see everything "eye to eye".

One of the essences of Masonry !!!

 

[Bloke]

no that's not all I pulled from it but that was the only thing I could pull from it to lighten the mood.
Irregardless, Could care less, same difference and other phrases like that are some of my pet pevees even though I am the furthest thing from an English Major.

You know the only reason I am here is a crusade to teach all you Yanks how to spell colour and honour, goal and cheque properly.... of, and say lieutenant correctly ( and for me to spell that word accurately).

 

[MasonicAdept]

I mentioned emotion cause you brought it up initially. I think we can agree to disagree with arguing back and forth about it. You do tend to get a tad defensive at times but that is just my opinion. Frankly, I am a fan of your work and will continue to be although we may not always see everything "eye to eye".

If we disagree, don't take it as me being defensive or arguing back and forth. You made a statement and I addressed it, don't take the disagreement personal.
I don't get EMOTIONAL over social media debates and discussions, so you obviously must have me mixed up with someone else.
I have the right to defend my position, just as you do-Defensive?!
I think not, just voicing my disagreement with you...Don't use "emotional" because I brought it up, use it because it applies...


You're alright with that, right?

Or am I just defensive when we disagree?

 

[Bloke]

If we disagree, don't take it as me being defensive or arguing back and forth. You made a statement and I addressed it, don't take the disagreement personal.
I don't get EMOTIONAL over social media debates and discussions, so you obviously must have me mixed up with someone else.
I have the right to defend my position, just as you do-Defensive?!
I think not, just voicing my disagreement with you...Don't use "emotional" because I brought it up, use it because it applies...


You're alright with that, right?

Or am I just defensive when we disagree?

Do what I did once, ban CAPS in your posts ( unless acronyms or grammatically required) and use italics.... actually makes a big difference on how folk read what u write..

 

[MasonicAdept]

Do what I did once, ban CAPS in your posts ( unless acronyms or grammatically required) and use italics.... actually makes a big difference on how folk read what u write..

I appreciate your offer of advice, but I am not going to stop emphasizing certain words to make someone emotionally comfortable. They should already know the difference between a person using caps to "yell" (if that is possible through social media) and someone emphasizing a particular word to direct attention to it.

 

[Bloke]

I appreciate your offer of advice, but I am not going to stop emphasizing certain words to make someone emotionally comfortable. They should already know the difference between a person using caps to "yell" (if that is possible through social media) and someone emphasizing a particular word to direct attention to it.

Thanks.

Making people emotionally comfortable can be important in communication... esp when introducing concepts the might be uncomfortable with or they're simply new.... esp when you want to specifically make them uncomfotable at some point..

But yep, it's just my opinion and not worth dwelling on.

What is worth dwelling on is following the journey where forced separation ends.. me, I'm always suspicious of GL'S because by their very nature they're controlling entities.... this visiting thing might be a lot less about race and much more about control and the threat of loosing some..