# What is the difference between af&am and f&am?



## KO2134

please include some history and id really love it if towerbuilder7would chime in on this post because he gives great answers


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## jrmysell

Ancient Free and Accepted Masons - "Regular"
Free and Accepted Masons - Prince Hall


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## KO2134

thanks for your input but even i know that prince hall masons arent the only f&am


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## BryanMaloney

jrmysell said:


> Ancient Free and Accepted Masons - "Regular"
> Free and Accepted Masons - Prince Hall


 
I'm afraid that's false. While legitimate Prince Hall masons are all F&AM, there are many Regular lodges in the USA that are not Prince Hall but are F&AM. Louisiana, from which Texas received her first charter, is F&AM, for example.


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## KSigMason

AF&AM and F&AM goes back to Great Schism between the Grand Lodges in England back in the 18th and 19th centuries. During the time when the Antients and the Moderns were split, they were still handing out charters to Lodges in America.  States often chartered a Grand Lodge under one of these two English GL's and even after they United into what today is known as the UGLE, the American Grand Lodges still kept the AF&AM and F&AM attachments even though the rituals are very close, particularly with so many following the rituals set-out by Preston and Webb.


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## Spring TX MM

I always use the OP explanation that Bro. Blake posted. http://www.masonsoftexas.com/education-literature/12080-what-difference-between-f-m-f-m.html This always helps me and I still use this explanation when asked by others.

S&F
Kyle


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## A7V

BryanMaloney said:


> I'm afraid that's false. While legitimate Prince Hall masons are all F&AM, there are many Regular lodges in the USA that are not Prince Hall but are F&AM. Louisiana, from which Texas received her first charter, is F&AM, for example.



You are right I am a member of Hawaiian Lodge and we are F&AM and not PHA

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2


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## scialytic

KO2134 said:


> please include some history and id really love it if towerbuilder7would chime in on this post because he gives great answers


 
Here is a link to a thread regarding the difference for PHA as well as mainstream. It is pretty thorough and very informative regarding the histories of both Prince Hall and mainstream Freemasonry in the United States.

http://www.masonsoftexas.com/general-freemasonry-discussion/15078-who-freemason.html

The Cliff's Notes: Mainstream Lodges can vary depending on their historical lineage to the Ancients, Moderns, Scottish or Irish Grand Lodge granting their charter. Prince Hall Lodges are either F.&A.M. or are clandestine in that there is no (legitimate) direct lineage to the UGLE (or the "moderns" before the merge, where the charter for Africa Lodge was granted to Prince Hall; hence the F.&A.M. without the "Antient").

I am no historian on these matters, but enjoyed the research.


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## towerbuilder7

GOOD EVENING BROTHERS.........I can appreciate each of the offerings bestowed by the Brotherhood, and I read each one submitted prior to mine carefully. Please allow me to be perfectly clear-----one who has correctly researched the lineage of the receipt of the Charter requested by Bro Prince Hall in Sept of 1784, and received by Bro Prince Hall in Sept of 1787 has observed that the Charter was numbered #459, as the Lodge was aptly named *African Lodge #459. *This Lodge was later re-numbered to #370 as late as 1792, which was well before the merge between the Antients and Moderns. The Lodge known as African Lodge #459 was *NEVER *considered clandestine, as it was aptly chartered by a Grand Body from a competent Jurisdiction, empowering it to work. The Lodges known today as *Prince Hall Affiliated F&AM Lodges *here in the United States were formed in the very same manner that many of the Mainstream Lodges across the United States were formed, in that another recognized Grand Lodge issued dispensation and eventually the Charter which empowered that State to work. For those who would like information or further LIGHT on differences between PHA and PHO (National Compact Masons), all one needs to know is that at THIS time,* Prince Hall Affiliated (PHA) Masons are the ONLY REGULAR AND RECOGNIZED body of Freemasonry among the many that exist in the Black Community*----Prince Hall Origin (PHO), International and Free, Free and Accepted Modern, Ancient Free and Accepted, and the list goes ONNNNNNN.................*NEITHER STYLE OF MASONRY IS CONSIDERED TO BE FORMALLY RECOGNIZED, AS NEITHER CAN ESTABLISH A DOCUMENTED LINEAGE TO A CHARTER RECEIVED BY THE UNITED GRAND LODGE OF ENGLAND*........*NUFF SAID*.........

The time period betwen 1840 and 1870 had a lot of conflict involved among Masons of Color in the United States, and those differences were eventually ironed out as the Prince Hall Affiliated Lodges sought, fought for, and eventually established STATE'S RIGHTS AND SOVEREIGNTY over the national governing body known as the National Compact. As recently as 1944, each State agreed to style its Grand Lodge as the "Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of........." TWO States in our Union are PHA, with *different names*, those States being Mississippi (Stringfellow Grand Lodge) and Florida (Union Grand Lodge). These two States ARE Prince Hall Affiliated, and are REGULAR AND RECOGNIZED as are the others styled Prince Hall Affiliated Grand Lodges.

Some Men who were raised as Prince Hall Masons, such as John G. Jones, (33rd Degree) took it upon themselves to bestow Masonic Degrees on Men himself, sometimes for profit, and then form Masonic Lodges styled ANCIENT FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONRY from State to State during this time of conflict and confusion, preying on the unsuspecting Men who simply wanted to become MASONS. Jones styled* HIS BRAND *of Masonry, *ANCIENT FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONRY, SOUTHERN AND WESTERN JURISDICTION*, and established this brand on April 5, 1869, in Washington, DC. There are fundamental problems with this, with THE FIRST being that Jones made the claim that he received his "CHARTER" from the* GRAND LODGE OF ROMANIA *in 1869. We can research this, and find that this Grand Lodge of Romania was not even established until 1880. Even if it *HAD* been issued legitimately, another problem is Jones still committed what is termed as a "Masonic Invasion", by establishing "GRAND LODGES" in Illinois, Washington DC, and several other States in between, by not receiving proper dispensation from either Grand Body of Mainstream or Prince Hall Affiliated Masonry in the States involved. 

Jones was sued several times by the Prince Hall Grand Bodies in these affected States, and was eventually expelled from the Craft in 1895. The BIGGER problem is THIS ANCIENT FREE AND ACCEPTED brand of Masonry still lives today in the Black Community, and STILL breeds miseducation, dissension, and confusion among many Men who seek membership, and even those who are *ALREADY MEMBERS*, who misunderstand the PRIMARY benefit of being made a Mason----being accepted as a REGULAR AND RECOGNIZED member of a Masonic Body with traceable lineage to the UGLE.

Prince Hall Affiliated Lodges have a unique link in their lineage, in that the Charter for African Lodge #459 received by Bro Prince Hall is the* ORIGINAL *Charter issued by the Grand Lodge of England still in possession of a Grand Body here in the United States. It is stored in a Bank Vault In Boston, Massachusetts. There are also 26 States in our Union whose Mainstream Grand Body of Masonry is styled FREE AND ACCEPTED, which alludes to the style of Masonry that was predominant prior to the schism, as the Brother correctly posted a few comments before mine. The Military Lodge where Prince Hall and 15 other Men of Color were initiated on March 6, 1775, was working under the Grand Lodge of Ireland, and was in Boston, obviously, working on a little issue we have come to know as the American Revolution.

When one discusses differences between FREE AND ACCEPTED, AND ANCIENT FREE AND ACCEPTED Masonry here in the U.S., there are some notable differences when moving the discussion from Mainstream to what is known today as Prince Hall Affiliated Masonry. The John G. Jones issue created an entire brand of Clandestine Freemasonry in the Black community, which runs rampant across the country today. The schism between the Antients and Moderns was resolved, and by 1813, Mainstream Masonry was working under one United Grand Lodge of England.    

Prince Hall Masons wrote letters to the UGLE, sent rosters, Death Notices, Charity and Relief payments for several years after the death of Bro Prince Hall in 1807, but letters were never returned with a response. By 1827, Brothers of the African Lodge made a decision which became a historical one indeed----they declared their independence from the United Grand Lodge of England, and formed *African Lodge #1*, with three subordinate Lodges under its wing. 
(Boston, Mass, Providence, R.I., Philadelphia, PA.)

In TODAY'S version of Masonry, this would not be the the appropriate way to form a Lodge or GRAND LODGE, as many clandestine Lodges in Black Community styled as ANCIENT FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONRY (most formed under the lineage of John G. Jones) STILL continue to operate this way---MANUFACTURE GRAND LODGES IN CITIES ACROSS THE NATION WHENEVER THERE IS A SCHISM OR THE SITTING "GRAND MASTER" FEELS LIKE FORMING MORE LODGES" . But, the price paid and consequence suffered for THESE LODGES is their lack of FORMAL RECOGNITION by the two predominant Grand Bodies of REGULAR AND RECOGNIZED Masonry in the US---Mainstream and Prince Hall Affiliation (PHA). The actions taken by our Prince Hall Brethren in 1827 in the establishment of African Grand Lodge #1 have been considered to be of "considerable regularity" by the UGLE, as noted as recently as Dec. 1994. 

The answer to this "epidemic" of *clandestine Masonry*? First, Provide proper and accurate information for Men seeking membership in FREEMasonry, so that the MIS-information can be countered with information that will benefit the potential petitioner.   Second, Ensure that each Mainstream and PHA Grand Body in each State is doing its part to promote a POSITIVE IMAGE for the Men and Bond of Masonry.  WE CAN BE AS GREAT OR AS BAD AS MEN  WE ATTRACT..........Third, Encourage Men who have been identified as potential petitioners to seek LIGHT about Masonry from actual members of Masonic Lodges, to dispel the MISINFORMATION that is sometimes disseminated on the World Wide Web......and LAST, The Internet is a great tool, but there is NO GREATER MOTTO than the one we have seen around for years------"TO BE 1, ASK 1".........................If we strive to be the Men GOD wants us to be, our LIGHT will shine brightly enough for these Men to FIND US and want to affiliate with us in our respective Lodges.............


*HUMBLY AND FRATERNALLY SUBMITTED, BRO. VINCENT C. JONES, SR., BAYOU CITY LODGE #228, PRINCE HALL AFFILIATION, FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONRY, MOST WORSHIPFUL PRINCE HALL GRAND LODGE OF TEXAS *


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## Blaster

well done, Brother Jones! if i may be so bold as to offer a second cliff's notes version, similar to Mr. Graham-

there seems to be no difference today amongst the "mainstream" Brethren. 
amongst Black Masons, AF&AM is clandestine, and F&AM (PHA) is regular.

But criminals are clever, and there may be some who will use F&AM to try to trick people, so always look for "The Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of..." as the GL name format, with the 2 exceptions mentioned by Brother Jones. we often abbreviate it, such as MWPHGLTX.

William Ross, W:.M:. Bayou City Lodge #228, Houston, MWPHGLTX.


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## Spring TX MM

Blaster said:


> there seems to be no difference today amongst the "mainstream" Brethren.
> amongst Black Masons, AF&AM is clandestine, and F&AM (PHA) is regular.



⇧⇧Really? 

Aside from that, very good explanation towerbuilder7.


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## towerbuilder7

It's always good to know your WM reads and enjoys the posts presented, as I always mindful of how my posts represent ME, My Lodge, and MASONRY as a whole.  I am eternally grateful to MY WM, because he is Man who sponsored my very own petition for HEALING, as I myself had been Initiated, Passed, and Raised in one of the MANY Black AF & AM Lodges here in Houston.  He believed enough in me to offer his Token and Good Word so that I could enjoy TRUE RIGHTS, LIGHTS, and BENEFITS.       BRO. JONES


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## towerbuilder7

Well, Brother Spring MM, allow me to clarify what my WM is conveying to the Brotherhood.  What he means is among Mainstream Brethren, if a Man petitions and eventually becomes a member of a Lodge affiliated with the Grand Lodge of Texas, AF&AM, there is NO Doubt that his affiliation will be recognized as proper.   We are not of the impression that the Clandestine Lodge issue is as MUCH an epidemic to Mainstream Masonry as it is to our PHA Masonry. 

The same is true for Brethren who join a PHA Lodge.  A Man can rest assured his affiliation is of proper lineage and recognition when joining. However, in some cities, Clandestine Lodges are deeply entrenched in Black Communities; hence, A Man can be easily misled and Mis-informed AS I WAS, about the Origin and Lineage/Recognition of the Lodge and Grand Lodge where he is raised.  I hope that provided some clarity.  And, I would like to pose the question to my Mainstream Brethren----how prevalent is the Clandestine Lodge issue in Mainstream Masonry?   Thanks, Bro. Jones


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## Spring TX MM

Thank you Brother Jones, for the clarification. I was a bit confused but I probably just misinterpreted what he stated.

S&F,
Kyle


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## Blaster

Hello Brother Kyle, what i meant was, there are both F&AM and AF&AM Grand Lodges here in America for the Mainstream Brethren. as far as I know, there is no difference in legitimacy or recognition based solely on 3 or 4 letter designations for Mainstream. for african-american freemasonry, there IS a difference. a Black AF&AM grand lodge is almost automatically clandestine, a Black F&AM grand lodge is not. all the recognized Prince Hall Grand Lodges are F&AM. i hope i made it a little more clear than before.

Will.


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## KO2134

under what circumstances can there be a black af&am lodge that's regular


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## Blaster

In America, none that I'm aware of. All the PHA grand lodges are established. Perhaps in another country where there are no PHA GLs, a mainstream GL can charter a lodge of African Americans, and if the mainstream GL is 4 letter, then the subordinate lodge would be also. That's the only scenario I can think of at the moment. Will.

Edit: I suppose a mainstream GL in America, Texas for example, could grant a charter to a group of Black men to have a lodge, and then they would fall under their designation. Many 4 letter black masons in texas mistakenly think they're part of the GL of Texas because of the AF&AM.


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## scialytic

Everyday is a learning day! Thank you very much for taking time to post in these forums. It has helped me repeatedly and I for one am very grateful for gentlemen like yourselves. Look forward to more reading...


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## Blaster

You're welcome, glad I could assist. 
Will.


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## Spring TX MM

Blaster said:


> Hello Brother Kyle, what i meant was, there are both F&AM and AF&AM Grand Lodges here in America for the Mainstream Brethren. as far as I know, there is no difference in legitimacy or recognition based solely on 3 or 4 letter designations for Mainstream. for african-american freemasonry, there IS a difference. a Black AF&AM grand lodge is almost automatically clandestine, a Black F&AM grand lodge is not. all the recognized Prince Hall Grand Lodges are F&AM. i hope i made it a little more clear than before.
> 
> Will.




Thank you Worshipful, for explaining it further. A day in which I learn something new is a successful day. I wasn't previously aware of the extent of the clandestine problem but now I will definitely be more on the guard. 

S&F,
Kyle
Spring Lodge #1174


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## Frater Cliff Porter

The letter "A" is the difference.

Arkansas is F&AM
Alabama is F&AM
Alaska is F&AM
Arizona is F&AM
California is F&AM
Florida is F&AM
Georgia is F&AM
Hawaii is F&AM
Kentucky is F&AM
Louisiana, the Grand Lodge that gave birth to Texas is F&AM even though Texas is AF/AM
Mississippi is F&AM
Nevada is F&AM
New Hamshire is F&AM
New Jersey is F&AM
New York is F&AM
Ohio is F&AM
Pennsylvania is F&AM
Rhode Island is F&AM
*South Carolina is AFM *or Ancient Free Masonry and neither F/AM or AF/AM
Vermont is F&AM
Tennessee is F&AM
Utah is F&AM
Washington is F&AM
* Washington D.C. is F.A.A.M. *
Wisconsin is F&AM


There are actually 25 F/AM states beating the 24 AF/AM states.

It has nothing to do with lodges being divided by color at all.

My experience is that you should travel to as many different jurisdictions and within that jurisdiction as you can.  You will be surprised at how much lodge varies.

In Scotland, where the Grand Lodge does not control ritual, you can go to a different MM degree every week and never see the same degree even close twice.


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## Michael Hatley

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> In Scotland, where the Grand Lodge does not control ritual, you can go to a different MM degree every week and never see the same degree even close twice.


 
Do you like that?  I guess I'm used to McMasonry.  

The gist is the same between them I take it?


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## Frater Cliff Porter

Nope.  They can be wildly different.  Scotland is awesome in a way.  They have the proof of the oldest existing speculative Masonry we know of...but they have always been fiercely independent and decided that even after 1717 they didn't need a Grand Lodge to do what they had been doing for a hundred years and was still working.  When they broke down and formed a GL, they gave it little power over the lodges and most of what the GL can do is make suggestions to things...but even then the hackles can go up and their power is tenuous.  

I like the idea of strong individual lodges loosely united under an umbrella...there is something wonderfully democratic about it.


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## SeeKer.mm

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> Nope.  They can be wildly different.  Scotland is awesome in a way.  They have the proof of the oldest existing speculative Masonry we know of...but they have always been fiercely independent and decided that even after 1717 they didn't need a Grand Lodge to do what they had been doing for a hundred years and was still working.  When they broke down and formed a GL, they gave it little power over the lodges and most of what the GL can do is make suggestions to things...but even then the hackles can go up and their power is tenuous.
> 
> I like the idea of strong individual lodges loosely united under an umbrella...there is something wonderfully democratic about it.


 
I am torn with this idea...in a way I do like the democracy and the freedom of the lodges to act individually, however, to me, there is something special about being able to go to Lodge far away from home and still hold a like connection to my Brothers.  I don't know...I think is a good idea for a poll though!  Thanks for sparking such an interesting concept and topic Frater Porter.


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## towerbuilder7

I appreciate the post, Brother.   That gives an answer to Brothers who wanted LIGHT from a worldwide perspective regarding the difference between F&AM and AF&AM Mainstream Lodges, and the post I provided simply alluded to the schism we encounter as Prince Hall Affiliation F&AM Brothers with the Black  AF & AM Lodges and their "Grand Lodges" here in the U.S.   I wish the answer you provided would be ALL that WE had to explain to a Man when he asks PHA Brethren the difference between FREE AND ACCEPTED, and ANCIENT FREE AND ACCEPTED LODGES in the Black Community.      

Bro. Vincent C. Jones, Sr., Bayou City Lodge 228, Prince Hall Affiliation
Free and Accepted Masonry, Houston, Texas
Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas


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## Frater Cliff Porter

With Prince Hall Affiliate lodges I always make sure they are just that when I visit.  PHA.  If the lodge is not a Prince Hall Affiliate, then it is likely considered irregular by PHA in Colorado.  The way our agreement works in Colorado, we consider regular all PHA lodges considered regular by PHA Colorado, Utah and Wyoming (one GL under PHA).


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## PHA TRAVELER

very well said Bro,Jones thanks for all the great information!


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## towerbuilder7

Anytime, Brother..........It's my duty to share the LIGHT I have obtained with the Brotherhood.........If I can enlighten at least ONE Brother with a post i have submitted, then I feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to..................BRO. JONES


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## PHA TRAVELER

Bro Jones is your lodge in Houston?


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## towerbuilder7

yes sir...............Bayou City Lodge #228 was re-opened with permission and dispensation of the Grand Master of MWPHGLoTx, Bro Wilbert Curtis......We received dispensation to re-open in April 2011, and at Grand Session LAST summer, Brothers were issued the Charter..........Our Lodge was originally Chartered in 1919.    There is at least ONE Past Master that is still living, and we are in the process of attempting to make contact with him.   He is obviously one of the Elders in the State by now.       We meet at the True Level #226 Building at 4212 Lyons, In 5th Ward, on 2nd and 4th Mondays.....................Bro Jones


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## PHA TRAVELER

We need to get in touch,i am from Highland Heights #200


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## Blake Bowden

Freemason Connect - Masonic Education & Discussion Forum - What Is The Difference Between A.F. & A.M and F. & A.M. ?


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## bushwickrich

Very good answers Towerbuilder7, very very true.

I was made a Mason in Valor Lodge #271 Three Rivers, Mississippi
Most Worshipful Stringer Grand Lodge 


Bro. Richard 4Â°


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## bushwickrich

PHA


Bro. Richard 4Â°


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## Txmason32

Awesome post brothers I an going to borrow some of the info to add light to others if that's cool 

Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## Bro.Parnell

Are you all saying that all black af&am lodges in tx are clandestine?


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## Blaster

Bro.Parnell said:


> Are you all saying that all black af&am lodges in tx are clandestine?


yes


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## acjohnson53

I try not to explain the difference because we all serve the same purpose , "Making good Men Better">>>


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## Blaster

acjohnson53 said:


> I try not to explain the difference because we all serve the same purpose , "Making good Men Better">>>


i can't really say what purpose a clandestine club serves. it's not the issue at hand though, so i don't have an opinion on  whatever they're doing.


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## Dontrell Stroman

acjohnson53 said:


> I try not to explain the difference because we all serve the same purpose , "Making good Men Better">>>


I disagree. You should enlighten brothers with truth concerning clandestine lodges instead of acting like we are all the same.


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## acjohnson53

*Okay*


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## Glen Cook

acjohnson53 said:


> I try not to explain the difference because we all serve the same purpose , "Making good Men Better">>>


Regrettably, we don't all  share the same purpose. Most  are simply sham operations bilking good men out of money


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## acjohnson53

some is for just recognition, or a reason of belonging


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## Dontrell Stroman

acjohnson53 said:


> some is for just recognition, or a reason of belonging


Their recognition is only recognized amongst themselves. Also, brother cook made a good point, they sham their members. Look at previous treads where brothers have exposed these corrupt organizations.


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## Glen Cook

acjohnson53 said:


> some is for just recognition, or a reason of belonging


But isn't that the other side of the equation, why people join any organization ?  My  issue (admittedly,I have a lot of issues), is the organization's side of it.


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## JohnMcCargo93

I am apart of a PHA AF&AM GL in my state. The MWPHGLofMd F&AM recognize us as we do them i never had an issue or was told my GL was irregular by no man that may have been traveling or local. Is it maybe they don't know how to say we are irregular Or what but I am feeling a little discouraged reading these comments.


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## MRichard

JohnMcCargo93 said:


> I am apart of a PHA AF&AM GL in my state. The MWPHGLofMd F&AM recognize us as we do them i never had an issue or was told my GL was irregular by no man that may have been traveling or local. Is it maybe they don't know how to say we are irregular Or what but I am feeling a little discouraged reading these comments.



Are you sure about that? The only PHA grand lodge that is AF & AM is Liberia unless there have been recent changes. What is your grand lodge?


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## MRichard

JohnMcCargo93 said:


> I am apart of a PHA AF&AM GL in my state. The MWPHGLofMd F&AM recognize us as we do them i never had an issue or was told my GL was irregular by no man that may have been traveling or local. Is it maybe they don't know how to say we are irregular Or what but I am feeling a little discouraged reading these comments.



I seriously doubt that your grand lodge (if it is the one in your profile) is recognized by the PHA grand lodge. Who told you that?


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## JohnMcCargo93

MRichard said:


> I seriously doubt that your grand lodge (if it is the one in your profile) is recognized by the PHA grand lodge. Who told you that?


well my grandparents as well as a few of my cousins are members of the mwphglofMd I also have family that are members of my GL We support them on Saint johns day as well as other events. It was explained to me even before joining that we were charter by the Grand Lodge of masons AF&AM republic of Liberia


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## MRichard

JohnMcCargo93 said:


> well my grandparents as well as a few of my cousins are members of the mwphglofMd I also have family that are members of my GL We support them on Saint johns day as well as other events. It was explained to me even before joining that we were charter by the Grand Lodge of masons AF&AM republic of Liberia



All I can suggest is that you do some research and talk to your family members that are PHA. Another PHA grand lodge would not charter a lodge in your state since there is already a PHA grand lodge there.


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## Brother JC

You keep avoiding actually telling us the name of the GL of the state you're in. And I don't think the PHAGL in Liberia could charter a GL within the US without some discussion.


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## JohnMcCargo93

MRichard said:


> All I can suggest is that you do some research and talk to your family members that are PHA. Another PHA lodge would not charter a lodge in your state since there is already a PHA grand lodge there.


THANK YOU! I knew something was off. But is there a way to get this fix me and my wife have spent a lot of time and money I rather try help rather than run off if it's a situation to be fixed


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## MRichard

Brother JC said:


> You keep avoiding actually telling us the name of the GL of the state you're in. And I don't think the PHAGL in Liberia could charter a GL within the US without some discussion.



It's in his profile. M.W Zerubbabel Grand Lodge A.F&A.M


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## JohnMcCargo93

MRichard said:


> All I can suggest is that you do some research and talk to your family members that are PHA. Another PHA grand lodge would not charter a lodge in your state since there is already a PHA grand lodge there.


Nothing actually matched up but I get told you'll understand later but later never comes


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## MRichard

JohnMcCargo93 said:


> Nothing actually matched up but I get told you'll understand later but later never comes



It never will either unfortunately.


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## Brother JC

MRichard said:


> It's in his profile. M.W Zerubbabel Grand Lodge A.F&A.M


Thanks, the app doesn't show profile info (that I've found).


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## MRichard

JohnMcCargo93 said:


> THANK YOU! I knew something was off. But is there a way to get this fix me and my wife have spent a lot of time and money I rather try help rather than run off if it's a situation to be fixed



If you want to be part of a regular and recognized grand lodge, you can either join the grand lodge of your state or the PHA grand lodge. You would probably have to start over if you went state grand lodge. There may still be a healing process if you went through the PHA grand lodge although I would recommend just starting over cause the work might be different. There are no easy answers.


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## acjohnson53

Where is Spring, Texas???I was born in Big Spring, Texas...


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## Glen Cook

acjohnson53 said:


> Where is Spring, Texas???I was born in Big Spring, Texas...


Houston area.

My great grandparents lived on Greg Street in Big Spring


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## acjohnson53

my family and i drove thru there a couple weeks ago...


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## Bill Lins

Glen Cook said:


> My great grandparents loved on Greg Street in Big Spring


More information than I really needed...


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## Glen Cook

Bill Lins said:


> More information than I really needed...


Dang.

Did I mention great grandma dipped snuff?


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## Bill Lins

Glen Cook said:


> Dang.
> 
> Did I mention great grandma dipped snuff?


During the "loving"?


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## BullDozer Harrell

MRichard said:


> It's in his profile. M.W Zerubbabel Grand Lodge A.F&A.M


http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/bogus_md.php


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## BullDozer Harrell

JohnMcCargo93 said:


> Nothing actually matched up but I get told you'll understand later but later never comes


Are you still affiliated with this organization, sir? I can help you if you desire to resign your membership and be done?

I can explain away the mix-up in any information you've probably been given about their claims to have been authorized by the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Liberia to operate in your State. 

It's absolutely false and we can discuss why, if you like?


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## Ripcord22A

Id like to know

Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## BullDozer Harrell

Ripcord22A said:


> Id like to know
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


Brother Ripcord, you're in the next class. I have just some general Masonic info regarding Regularity, its definition and standards test to discuss with this guy. 

You're aware of this stuff already. 

Maybe later i'll come across some info specifically about his organization in Maryland which he assumed to have had a fraternal relation with the Prince Hall Grand Lodge there.


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## Ripcord22A

BullDozer Harrell said:


> Brother Ripcord, you're in the next class. I have just some general Masonic info regarding Regularity, its definition and standards test to discuss with this guy.
> 
> You're aware of this stuff already.
> 
> Maybe later i'll come across some info specifically about his organization in Maryland which he assumed to have had a fraternal relation with the Prince Hall Grand Lodge there.


Oh i thought u had some info on why that "gl" claims Liberia as its mother "gl"

Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## BullDozer Harrell

JohnMcCargo93 said:


> THANK YOU! I knew something was off. But is there a way to get this fix me and my wife have spent a lot of time and money I rather try help rather than run off if it's a situation to be fixed


Go to the webpage and click the tab that says subordinate lodges.

You probably won't see any lodge by the name of Zerubbabel. 

Also, in fact, you won't see any Grand Lodges operating under the authority of the Grand Lodge of Liberia.

Regular Masonry does not work like that. Never has since the  organization of it in the early 18th century.
http://www.grandlodgeofliberia.org/pages1.php?pgID=37#

Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## ccampbell

Blaster said:


> Hello Brother Kyle, what i meant was, there are both F&AM and AF&AM Grand Lodges here in America for the Mainstream Brethren. as far as I know, there is no difference in legitimacy or recognition based solely on 3 or 4 letter designations for Mainstream. for african-american freemasonry, there IS a difference. a Black AF&AM grand lodge is almost automatically clandestine, a Black F&AM grand lodge is not. all the recognized Prince Hall Grand Lodges are F&AM. i hope i made it a little more clear than before.
> 
> Will.


"Brother" I must ask you where do you get your information? Your statement that a Black AF&AM Grand Lodge is automatically clandestine is spreading false information. To elude that PHA is in some way more legitimate than a Black AF&AM GL is ridiculous. Also to assume that PHA and other GL which have Black members are somehow limited to that makeup is making an assumption that is also false. Why do you assume that there are no white PHA? Why do you assume there are all Black AF&AM GL which are clandestine simply by their makeup of members? Please ,clarify your position based on truth and based on provable information and not something derived from long tainted word of mouth interpretations and racist perspectives.


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## MRichard

ccampbell said:


> "Brother" I must ask you where do you get your information? Your statement that a Black AF&AM Grand Lodge is automatically clandestine is spreading false information. To elude that PHA is in some way more legitimate than a Black AF&AM GL is ridiculous. Also to assume that PHA and other GL which have Black members are somehow limited to that makeup is making an assumption that is also false. Why do you assume that there are no white PHA? Why do you assume there are all Black AF&AM GL which are clandestine simply by their makeup of members? Please ,clarify your position based on truth and based on provable information and not something derived from long tainted word of mouth interpretations and racist perspectives.



Simple question. What Black grand lodge do you know of that is regular? The statement was directed to grand lodges in the US.  There are only 2 regular grand lodges per state in the US unless a grand lodge is in exile like in California. There are not 2 regular grand lodges in every state though.


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## ccampbell

what is a Black Grand Lodge? What is a white Grand Lodge? Since when does Masonry separate like that? A Grand Lodge is legitimate if it has a Charter or dispensation from a grand body or competent jurisdiction empowering it to work. That's all that's required. Are you claiming PHA?


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## MRichard

Are you?


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## ccampbell

I am not. I only ask if you were because you are spouting about Black GL and there is no distinction in a Mason if you are practicing right. We are on the level regardless of lodge affiliation. The only thing that matters is if you are operating with the S&C together with a charter or dispensation from a Grand Body empowering you. To do otherwise is not Masonry


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## MRichard

ccampbell said:


> I am not. I only ask if you were because you are spouting about Black GL and there is no distinction in a Mason if you are practicing right. We are on the level regardless of lodge affiliation. The only thing that matters is if you are operating with the S&C together with a charter or dispensation from a Grand Body empowering you. To do otherwise is not Masonry



Where did you see me spout anything about Black grand lodges other than asking you a simple question that you still have not answered?


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## ccampbell

I answered all your questions and will do so again. I’m reading the thread. To claim a Lodge is not regular because it has black members seems out of line. That’s the reason for my trial. If I am attributing someone else’s comment to you, accept my apologies.


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## MRichard

Please make sure you have a basic understanding of the issues before you accuse someone of being racist.
http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2016/10/addressing-clandestine-freemasonry-why.html?m=1
There are literally thousands of Black clandestine grand lodges. It's a serious issue for Prince Hall (PHA)  grand lodges. They are clandestine.


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## Glen Cook

ccampbell said:


> "Brother" I must ask you where do you get your information? Your statement that a Black AF&AM Grand Lodge is automatically clandestine is spreading false information. To elude that PHA is in some way more legitimate than a Black AF&AM GL is ridiculous. Also to assume that PHA and other GL which have Black members are somehow limited to that makeup is making an assumption that is also false. Why do you assume that there are no white PHA? Why do you assume there are all Black AF&AM GL which are clandestine simply by their makeup of members? Please ,clarify your position based on truth and based on provable information and not something derived from long tainted word of mouth interpretations and racist perspectives.


Sticking my nose in here, may I ask your GL?  
Would you agree that all PHA in the US are F&AM?


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## ccampbell

MRichard said:


> Please make sure you have a basic understanding of the issues before you accuse someone of being racist.
> http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2016/10/addressing-clandestine-freemasonry-why.html?m=1
> There are literally thousands of Black clandestine grand lodges. It's a serious issue for Prince Hall (PHA)  grand lodges. They are clandestine.





MRichard said:


> Please make sure you have a basic understanding of the issues before you accuse someone of being racist.
> http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2016/10/addressing-clandestine-freemasonry-why.html?m=1
> There are literally thousands of Black clandestine grand lodges. It's a serious issue for Prince Hall (PHA)  grand lodges. They are clandestine.



Brother your tone is defensive and aggressive. I’ve already stated if I confused your reply with another’s, I apologize. Beyond that you aren’t accepting me as a Brother and are out of bounds. 

Now, if you wish to further the dialog let me know otherwise I will leave you in peace.


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## ccampbell

Glen Cook said:


> Sticking my nose in here, may I ask your GL?
> Would you agree that all PHA in the US are F&AM?



Yes, Brother. I hail from MW Hiram Abif Grand Lodge for the State of Indiana. AF&AM. Founded 1962
General Grand Masonic Congress Founded August 9, 1899.


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## MRichard

ccampbell said:


> Yes, Brother. I hail from MW Hiram Abif Grand Lodge for the State of Indiana. AF&AM. Founded 1962
> General Grand Masonic Congress Founded August 9, 1899.



@Glen Cook  I will let you handle this one. I knew something was wrong.


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## ccampbell

MRichard said:


> @Glen Cook  I will let you handle this one. I knew something was wrong.



I’m not sure what you mean by that comment but what I am sensing is you have a chip on your shoulder. Your tone is not of brotherhood or love. It’s condesening and rude.  If that’s how they raise you guys down there in Texas on how to greet Brothers then something is missing. Good day


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## MRichard

Perhaps you should  do some research on this organization you belong to. Here's a hint. http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/vol1.php


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## Warrior1256

MRichard said:


> Perhaps you should do some research on this organization you belong to. Here's a hint. http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/vol1.php


Oops! Dosen't sound good.


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## ccampbell

First of all that’s not even our Congress so how can they say we aren’t legitimate?

Secondly who gives this site authorization to say who is and who is not legitimate?

Thirdly it’s a very dangerous thing to go around quoting things like that to GL that you have no authority. It opens you up for lawsuits


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## MRichard

You are a member of a clandestine organization. End of story.


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## ccampbell

Why? Because Prince Hall has a website? I doubt that. You have no jurisdiction or authority over me. If we really want to get technical show me the charter from 1717


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## MRichard

What's your lineage? This should be good.


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## Glen Cook

ccampbell said:


> Yes, Brother. I hail from MW Hiram Abif Grand Lodge for the State of Indiana. AF&AM. Founded 1962
> General Grand Masonic Congress Founded August 9, 1899.


And that is the more precise issue.  This group is not considered regular and is not recognized by PHA, CGMNA, UGLE, GL Scotland, GL Ireland...  

There are two links I would provide, one which indicates the group is not regular (it uses the term bogus, of which I do not approve), and that of UGLE, which fails to show your GL as a recognized GL in Indiana.  

http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/bogus_in.php

http://www.ugle.org.uk/about/foreign-grand-lodges

Now, this isn't to say we don't respect you or to indicate that you aren't welcome here.  Certainly, I don't think anyone on this list would indicate that an historically African American lodge would be _per se_ clandestine, and such a comment would be met with forceful rebuttal.


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## ccampbell

Brothers in the Craft, please be careful about listening to other people tell you are not a    Lodge.  There are requirements which make you a Lodge anyone saying anything different hasn’t read their lessons. 

The attempt to divide Masonry where everyone is supposed to be on the level regardless of profession and stature is not Masonry. It’s separatism and it only further embraces an theology that one is better than the other. 

I will knock on any door and have done so all over the Globe and not Once have I been denied entrance. My charter hanges at the alter during all meetings as proof we are who we say we are. I encourage all Brothers to embrace the tenants of Masonry as well as the rule and guide.


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## Glen Cook

ccampbell said:


> ...  If that’s how they raise you guys down there in Texas...


Well, to be fair, most of us have issues with Texans because, well, Texas.


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## MRichard

Glen Cook said:


> Well, to be fair, most of us have issues with Texans because, well, Texas.



Lol.


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## MRichard

Some of these clandestine freemasons have been brainwashed and don't know any better. You don't seem to fall in that category though.


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## ccampbell

Glen Cook said:


> And that is the more precise issue.  This group is not considered regular and is not recognized by PHA, CGMNA, UGLE, GL Scotland, GL Ireland...
> 
> There are two links I would provide, one which indicates the group is not regular (it uses the term bogus, of which I do not approve), and that of UGLE, which fails to show your GL as a recognized GL in Indiana.
> 
> http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/bogus_in.php
> 
> http://www.ugle.org.uk/about/foreign-grand-lodges
> 
> Now, this isn't to say we don't respect you or to indicate that you aren't welcome here.  Certainly, I don't think anyone on this list would indicate that an historically African American lodge would be _per se_ clandestine, and such a comment would be met with forceful rebuttal.




So if your point is if a Lodge is not recognized by the GLE then a lot is legitimate Lodges would fall into that. The only way that would hold true is if a Lodge was claiming to be under the GLE flag and had not been issued a charter or dispensation. 

However, Brother with much respect, I submit to you if the GLE has no jurisdiction over me, then it can’t tell me nor can it enforce the authority over me by labeling me illegitimate. 

That would be like Russia saying the USA is not a real country because Russsia says so. 

We have to stop this nonsense. If I am a Mason and I am empowered and I have my dues paid and can produce a valid traveling card and I knock on your door, you MUST allow me entrance as much as you MUST come to my aid if needed. That’s Your obligation. Anything else you are not fulfilling your oath. 

I will Be In Dallas in February in business. I would love to meet you both and I would love to introduce myself in a better format, allow myself to be tired and in turn try you. Perhaps then you will come to appreciate a brother more easily. My RIGHT is to travel


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## MRichard

You have the right to visit other clandestine lodges. That's about it.


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## MRichard

I have to engage the ignore button now. Enough of this foolishness!


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## Glen Cook

ccampbell said:


> So if your point is if a Lodge is not recognized by the GLE then a lot is legitimate Lodges would fall into that. The only way that would hold true is if a Lodge was claiming to be under the GLE flag and had not been issued a charter or dispensation.
> 
> However, Brother with much respect, I submit to you if the GLE has no jurisdiction over me, then it can’t tell me nor can it enforce the authority over me by labeling me illegitimate.
> 
> That would be like Russia saying the USA is not a real country because Russsia says so.
> 
> We have to stop this nonsense. If I am a Mason and I am empowered and I have my dues paid and can produce a valid traveling card and I knock on your door, you MUST allow me entrance as much as you MUST come to my aid if needed. That’s Your obligation. Anything else you are not fulfilling your oath.
> 
> I will Be In Dallas in February in business. I would love to meet you both and I would love to introduce myself in a better format, allow myself to be tired and in turn try you. Perhaps then you will come to appreciate a brother more easily. My RIGHT is to travel


I agree, UGLE is only one source of recognition.  However, they only recognize two GL's in Indiana.  Further, you will note that I referenced some 100 GL's in North America which do not recognize your GL and your GL's specific inclusion on a list of unrecognized GL's.  

I also agree that UGLE has no authority over you.  They only have authority over me because I am a member. 

You have been misinformed as to visitation for two reasons: only Masons whose GLS are in amity may visit one another's lodges.  The majority of us have taken a specific obligation regarding conversing on the secrets of Freemasonry with a clandestine Mason ( I note that not all obligations are the same.  It is also parlous to lecture another Mason as to what his obligation entails).  Let me ask: does your obligation mention clandestine masons?

Additionally, my mother jurisdiction of Utah specifically notes in its code that visitation is a privilege, and not a right.  UGLE also allows a Master to bar even a recognized Mason from visiting.  

No, you don't get to try me as a Mason unless I am seeking a Masonic privilege or entry into a lodge.  Further, I have no need to try you, as I am already aware of the status of your GL and because of that, may not converse on the secrets of Freemasonry with you.  

Again, that doesn't mean that you are not a good person.  However, my various obligations, with which I'm fairly familiar, do not allow me to hold a Masonic conversation with you.


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## ccampbell

Glen Cook said:


> I agree, UGLE is only one source of recognition.  However, they only recognize two GL's in Indiana.  Further, you will note that I referenced some 100 GL's in North America which do not recognize your GL and your GL's specific inclusion on a list of unrecognized GL's.
> 
> I also agree that UGLE has no authority over you.  They only have authority over me because I am a member.
> 
> You have been misinformed as to visitation for two reasons: only Masons whose GLS are in amity may visit one another's lodges.  The majority of us have taken a specific obligation regarding conversing on the secrets of Freemasonry with a clandestine Mason ( I note that not all obligations are the same.  It is also parlous to lecture another Mason as to what his obligation entails).  Let me ask: does your obligation mention clandestine masons?
> 
> Additionally, my mother jurisdiction of Utah specifically notes in its code that visitation is a privilege, and not a right.  UGLE also allows a Master to bar even a recognized Mason from visiting.
> 
> No, you don't get to try me as a Mason unless I am seeking a Masonic privilege or entry into a lodge.  Further, I have no need to try you, as I am already aware of the status of your GL and because of that, may not converse on the secrets of Freemasonry with you.
> 
> Again, that doesn't mean that you are not a good person.  However, my various obligations, with which I'm fairly familiar, do not allow me to hold a Masonic conversation with you.


You guys are a riot
Definitely not Masons
It’s funny coming from a group who never had a Grand Body to even begin. But I digress


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## MRichard

Well on second thought, I have to unblock him until I get an answer on his lineage. But considering he never answered my first question, I may be waiting a long time.


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## MRichard

Just saying.


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## Bloke

ccampbell said:


> .......We have to stop this nonsense. If I am a Mason and I am empowered and I have my dues paid and can produce a valid traveling card and I knock on your door, you MUST allow me entrance as much as you MUST come to my aid if needed. That’s Your obligation. Anything else you are not fulfilling your oath.
> 
> I will Be In Dallas in February in business. I would love to meet you both and I would love to introduce myself in a better format, allow myself to be tired and in turn try you. Perhaps then you will come to appreciate a brother more easily. My RIGHT is to travel



(and with further references to earlier posts)

Hi Brother ccampbell.

Today, this has nothing to do with skin colour - only Amity and Regularity. Here, in Australia, it has _only ever_ concerned Amity and Regularity. 

I'm a member of Lodges working under United Grand Lodge Victoria, founded in 1890 when local Freemasons working under the Grand Lodges of Scotland, Ireland and England (the later indeed being UGLE as mentioned in prior posts) formed their own Grand Lodge, and then wrote to those Grand Lodges and was recognised by them as legitimate - and we wrote to them as_ we saw them_ as legitimate, and it this "legitimacy" was mutually agreed - that's the core of regularity... _mutual _recognition as "regular" and the criteria used to do that.

Since that time, our Grand Lodge, and other Grand Lodges, have exchanged letters and agreed to recognise each other as "regular" and hence have become in "amity" which also means mutual visitation. I've received visiting Freemasons from every continent except Antarctica.

Hence MRichard and Glen Cook - as members of GLs recognised by mine, can indeed sit in lodge with me.

As a member of "MW Hiram Abif Grand Lodge for the State of Indiana" I could  not admit you in my lodge _without breaking my obligation i_n relation to sit only in a lodge which was "regular". Grand Lodge England, or any other Grand Lodge does not make that ruling - my own Grand Lodge does... and unless our GLs are in Amity, then, even if UGLE has you on or off a list is irrelevant, what is critical is if, as a Sovereign Grand Lodge, my Grand Lodge has you on its list of GLs it is Amity with. That's occurred because of mutual recognition.

Given the history of your GL, I would imagine, if it has of written to any regular GL requesting recognition, that request would have been declined, or likely perhaps even ignored.

As to whether I decided to help you, well, I would say that's on my own conscience. That is the case for all Freemasons initiated under UGLV because we render assistance "without detriment to ourselves or connections" and only "so far as my fairly be done"....  where that line starts and stops is always a good discussion in a tyled lodge in the context of all obligations and ritual within your own jurisdiction..

I suggest you read the links supplied to further inform yourself of some of the issues on Regularity within the United  States... while this might have been born of racism, the issues have become more complex and subtle. For many Freemasons in Countries like India or Africa - the idea of having Freemasonry divided on any lines other than merit (character, good and bad) , but especially to  divide Freemasons on race or religion, is a foreign and unmasonic concept - but in the Nth American context, happened because of time and place - but the proud traditions and  institutions created have transcended the divide and stand as testament to by long-dead Brothers' will to pursue Freemasonry for themselves and children.

From a completely different angle, I recommend this  short article from an "irregular Freemason" which might help you understand sovereignty http://beacon190.ca/2017/02/11/i-am-regular/


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## Warrior1256

Glen Cook said:


> only Masons whose GLS are in amity may visit one another's lodges. The majority of us have taken a specific obligation regarding conversing on the secrets of Freemasonry with a clandestine Mason





Glen Cook said:


> I have no need to try you, as I am already aware of the status of your GL and because of that, may not converse on the secrets of Freemasonry with you.


What he said.


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## dfreybur

ccampbell said:


> A Grand Lodge is legitimate if it has a Charter or dispensation from a grand body or competent jurisdiction empowering it to work. That's all that's required.



Actually that's not how the lineage requirement for regularity works.

Grand Lodges organize themselves from existing regular lodges operating in a territory that does not already have a Grand Lodge, or in a territory that has a Grand Lodge that allows others to form.  This principle comes from United Grand Lodge of England/Scotland/Ireland operating lodges all over the world with some but not all joining new GLs as they organize.  The founding lodges must themselves be chartered from Grand Lodges with regular lineage.  In every case these GLs must be able to demonstrate lineage back to UGLE, GLofIreland, GLofScotland or the Moderns or Antients before they United.

Grand lodges don't charter other GLs.  Grand lodges charter lodges.  Some of those lodges might organize into their own GLs.  Grand lodge recognize other GLs.

What you have been taught about GLs of course works for your own jurisdiction, as it must.  You are of course sincere and probably every member of your own lodge is sincere.

Clandestine lodges are forces for good in their communities.  Clandestine members are good people.  They generally don't know how regular lineage works and why it's necessary.

Please look up the nearest regular and recognize PHA lodge and apply for "healing".  They will welcome you.  Then you will be able to visit anywhere in the world as you claim to have already done.

The history of why clandestine lodges proliferated varies.  In the US it's a disgraceful history of racism.  Now that's obsolete and it's time for members to consolidate into the regular lineage lodges.  Please come to a home.


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## Warrior1256

dfreybur said:


> Please look up the nearest regular and recognize PHA lodge and apply for "healing". They will welcome you. Then you will be able to visit anywhere in the world as you claim to have already done.


True.


dfreybur said:


> The history of why clandestine lodges proliferated varies. In the US it's a disgraceful history of racism. Now that's obsolete and it's time for members to consolidate into the regular lineage lodges. Please come to a home.


Absolutely.


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## Brother JC

@ccampbell  While I’m sure your lodge does good work you must understand that you will not be able to visit any Grand Lodge of (insert state here), nor any MWPHGL of (insert state here). Just because someone calling themselves a “grand lodge” prints a piece of paper doesn’t mean it is valid. There are several Brothers here who used to be members of irregular grand lodges and have moved to recognized, regular grand lodges. I’m not telling you how to live your life, but if you want to visit the majority of the lodges in the world you will need to change your allegiance.


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## Glen Cook

dfreybur said:


> Actually that's not how the lineage requirement for regularity works.
> 
> Grand Lodges organize themselves from existing regular lodges operating in a territory that does not already have a Grand Lodge, or in a territory that has a Grand Lodge that allows others to form.  This principle comes from United Grand Lodge of England/Scotland/Ireland operating lodges all over the world with some but not all joining new GLs as they organize.  The founding lodges must themselves be chartered from Grand Lodges with regular lineage.  In every case these GLs must be able to demonstrate lineage back to UGLE, GLofIreland, GLofScotland or the Moderns or Antients before they United.
> 
> Grand lodges don't charter other GLs.  Grand lodges charter lodges.  Some of those lodges might organize into their own GLs.  Grand lodge recognize other GLs.
> 
> What you have been taught about GLs of course works for your own jurisdiction, as it must.  You are of course sincere and probably every member of your own lodge is sincere.
> 
> Clandestine lodges are forces for good in their communities.  Clandestine members are good people.  They generally don't know how regular lineage works and why it's necessary.
> 
> Please look up the nearest regular and recognize PHA lodge and apply for "healing".  They will welcome you.  Then you will be able to visit anywhere in the world as you claim to have already done.
> 
> The history of why clandestine lodges proliferated varies.  In the US it's a disgraceful history of racism.  Now that's obsolete and it's time for members to consolidate into the regular lineage lodges.  Please come to a home.



Well, it has been known outside the US for a GL to found another. The GL of Bulgaria was reported to have been founded by the GLdF (which at one time was considered regular) by charter. 

The new GL of Azerbaijan is reported to have been issued a charter by DC, Turkey, and Russia.


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## dfreybur

Glen Cook said:


> Well, it has been known outside the US for a GL to found another. The GL of Bulgaria was reported to have been founded by the GLdF (which at one time was considered regular) by charter.
> 
> The new GL of Azerbaijan is reported to have been issued a charter by DC, Turkey, and Russia.



So never in the US then.  Thanks for the education.


----------

