# Decline in Freemasonry



## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 25, 2018)

Do you think the internet and socail media has played a major part in the decline of our membership ? At anytime a potential candiate can at the press of a finger learn and read anything he wants about freemasonry (not just the ritual, but the problems that we try and fix behind the scenes without exposing to the public but some how always find it's way in a online article leaving a man saying I dont want to be apart of an organization like that ? Although it has opened many doors for education that we didnt once have.... What are your thoughts ?

Sent from my LG-LS997 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## David612 (Jan 25, 2018)

My DGIW is on a big Facebook kick currently, he’s been getting huge results (like 30+ partitions IIRC) but and while there are many people willing to fill in the paperwork the questing of “are they Brother material?” Will take time to find out.
I’m guessing that the core problem remains and that is, what will people find when they are admitted? Will they like what they find?


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## Bloke (Jan 25, 2018)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Do you think the internet and socail media has played a major part in the decline of our membership ? At anytime a potential candiate can at the press of a finger learn and read anything he wants about freemasonry (not just the ritual, but the problems that we try and fix behind the scenes without exposing to the public but some how always find it's way in a online article leaving a man saying I dont want to be apart of an organization like that ? Although it has opened many doors for education that we didnt once have.... What are your thoughts ?
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS997 using My Freemasonry mobile app


I think it supports membership growth - you can read all you want about Freemasonry, the only way to know it is to live it and that starts by joining.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 26, 2018)

David612 said:


> My DGIW is on a big Facebook kick currently, he’s been getting huge results (like 30+ partitions IIRC) but and while there are many people willing to fill in the paperwork the questing of “are they Brother material?” Will take time to find out.
> I’m guessing that the core problem remains and that is, what will people find when they are admitted? Will they like what they find?


Help me out: DGIW = ?


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## Bloke (Jan 26, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Help me out: DGIW = ?


District Grand Inspector of Workings ?


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## MarkR (Jan 26, 2018)

Membership was in a steep decline long before anyone had heard of "social media."  Today, I think it's a mixed bag; people can find out enough to determine if they're interested, and find out how to become a Mason (in years past, many men waited and waited for someone to ask them to join) so that's good.  They can also see Masons bickering, name-calling, and generally acting in a way that is not very inviting, so that's bad.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 26, 2018)

JamestheJust said:


> A wide range of social institutions are in decline - not having much to offer the current generation.


Yep.


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## LK600 (Jan 26, 2018)

Admittedly personal thought here, but I think possibly the Freemasonry process continues to be set up to receive people who are eager to join with little needing to be done by the Craft itself whereas maybe people today are not so automatically attracted and are expecting more up front?  Just a thought.


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## dfreybur (Jan 26, 2018)

History matters.  Our numbers grew out of line in the era of WW1 and WW2.  We are currently right-sizing to our long term fraction of the population that we held before that.

Brothers come to lodge for 50 years and see a trend for that entire time.  They think that trend was always there and will always be there.  Nope, not how history works.  Our numbers move up and down across the centuries always centered around the same percentage of the population.

History matters and 50 years is a blink of the eye.  Perspective needs to be wider.

Also notice that for decades the number of degrees has been increasing.  We tend to be members for decades.  Degrees are the "leading indicator".  Membership count is the "trailing indicator".  Focusing on membership numbers automatically loses the perspective that anything whatsoever might have changed in the last 2oish years.  Guess what, a lot has changed in the last 2oish years.  Some jurisdictions so much they have seen membership increase already.

Okay, that said, plenty of lodges are dying.  Given that plenty of lodges are so busy they can't keep up with their degree calendar I'm okay with lodges dying.  That too is how it always worked before WW1!  History matters.  Perspective.

Still, if you want to lament dropping numbers, my challenge to you is to do something about it.  Go through line and go vote GL.  Vote to drop the nonsense against invitations.  Invite a few of the best men in the neighborhood near each lodge.  Bingo.  There is something real to be done about numbers.  You know it.  I know it.  Everyone knows it.  Break through the encrusted resistance to improving our order through inviting a few of the best and brightest.


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## hanzosbm (Jan 26, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> Okay, that said, plenty of lodges are dying.  Given that plenty of lodges are so busy they can't keep up with their degree calendar I'm okay with lodges dying.  That too is how it always worked before WW1!  History matters.  Perspective.
> 
> Still, if you want to lament dropping numbers, my challenge to you is to do something about it.  Go through line and go vote GL.  Vote to drop the nonsense against invitations.  Invite a few of the best men in the neighborhood near each lodge.  Bingo.  There is something real to be done about numbers.  You know it.  I know it.  Everyone knows it.  Break through the encrusted resistance to improving our order through inviting a few of the best and brightest.



Sorry, but I strongly disagree.  First, in regards to lodges dying.  While I am okay with a decrease in the number of lodges, I'm not okay with what is causing it.  Why do some lodges grow so fast?  Why do some initiate 10 men a week?  Do you really expect me to believe that 10 men a week found it in their heart the desire to improve themselves and already hold not only the intellect but also the germ of sincere morality necessary to become a Mason?  And that those 10 men were dutifully investigated and their _character_ was understood by the brethren making the vote?  Absolutely not.  And if you disagree, I'd then ask, how many 'no' votes did that lodge hand out?
And that brings me to the next point; invitations are a terrible idea.  If you just want to grow numbers, then, sure, it MIGHT accomplish that (although we've seen what happens in terms of retention to those men) but if you want to grow the fraternity, you need quality, not quantity.  Inviting people only brings in people who are not interested enough to come to our door on their own.  I have no desire to become the rotary club.


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## Bloke (Jan 26, 2018)

JamestheJust said:


> A wide range of social institutions are in decline - not having  much to offer the current generation.


Rather than not having much to offer, rather is it perhaps what they offer is no longer valued ?


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## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2018)

hanzosbm said:


> Sorry, but I strongly disagree.



Where's the fun in agreeing.  Even though we're taught to best agree.



> And that brings me to the next point; invitations are a terrible idea.  ... you need quality, not quantity ...



I don't get the leap of illogic here.  The entire point of extending invitations is to invite the best and brightest.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 27, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> I don't get the leap of illogic here. The entire point of extending invitations is to invite the best and brightest.


Sounds good to me!


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## Bloke (Jan 27, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> ...The entire point of extending invitations is to invite the best and brightest.



Exactly, it's the other extreme of the ballot box exactly on that single line of logic. We want the best, nor perfect, but men fit to be Freemasons, and the best Freemasons are the best men, and often good leaders..


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## billyjfootball (Jan 27, 2018)

It's a mixed bag.  The internet is crazy.  Some of the theories are nuts about us.  In a lot of ways, it builds us up to this mythological beast.  My brother was so passionate to learn about us and had an image in his head about what we are.  All these esoteric thoughts banging around in his skull.  He was disillusioned a bit.  He told me, he's done because he attends enough "business meetings" with his job.  It hurt.  But I feel if the internet hadn't built things up so much, he would have been good.  Or maybe it's his Lodge.  I dont know.  On the other hand, Freemasonry is the best thing I've ever done.  It's truly made me a better man


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


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## JJones (Jan 28, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> Vote to drop the nonsense against invitations. Invite a few of the best men in the neighborhood near each lodge.



You had me until right there. I like to think there's a reason for everything, even if it isn't obvious. I like to think the "no invitation" policy encourages us to be more as lodges and individuals so that we attract men to us.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 28, 2018)

billyjfootball said:


> Freemasonry is the best thing I've ever done. It's truly made me a better man


Same here.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 28, 2018)

I think, as Bro. BillyF stated, his friend overanalyzed Masonry via the internet and then was disappointed when he realized he was not joining 'the illuminati' and unfortunately not presented terribly esoterically product as he expected. But a great point would not be that he overanalyzed it or not or that he was over informed (because many candidates nowadays are more informed than some members) but that he was let down by a society that has the potential to be very esoteric and unlike the rest of our day to day lives.  Bottom line, many new members are very disappointed on so many levels. If the newer folks, myself included, want that esoteric society vs. the current Rotary club we have, then our lodges need to be providing that and evolve with the times. The ingredients are there for a gourmet meal but we're presenting T.V. dinners for the most part.


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## coachn (Jan 28, 2018)

billyjfootball said:


> ...Freemasonry is the best thing I've ever done.  It's truly made me a better man...


And how exactly did it do this?  Please, be specific.


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## dfreybur (Jan 28, 2018)

CLewey44 said:


> If the newer folks, myself included, want that esoteric society vs. the current Rotary club we have, then our lodges need to be providing that and evolve with the times.



You petitioned a group run by a generation that wanted to give service.  Guess who's duty it is to cause the evolution you want?  Be the change you want in the world.

I'm interested in the mystical but I knew when I petitioned that not one in a thousand shared my interest.


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## dfreybur (Jan 28, 2018)

JJones said:


> I like to think there's a reason for everything, even if it isn't obvious. I like to think the "no invitation" policy encourages us to be more as lodges and individuals so that we attract men to us.



History matters.  What's the history of when and why we went to invitations?  Be sure your answer takes into account those jurisdictions that never changed away from being by invitation.  Which is to say be sure your answer includes that we were founded as an invitational organization.

The surface history is that operative lodges started inviting eminent men to join them and that's how we became speculative.  Which states that even in the operative days we'd been invitational and the change hadn't been about invitations.

Switching away from invitations is like the switch away from having toasts at our meals.  Not a part of the original design of the order.


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## LK600 (Jan 28, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> I'm interested in the mystical but I knew when I petitioned that not one in a thousand shared my interest.



I wonder if this has or is changing?  It seems from my limited exposure newer members are more inclined to be drawn to the esoteric but refrain from discussing it with older members.  Anyway, I must set aside the speculative side and practice the operative... need to go bust up some rocks and pour some cement.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 28, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> You petitioned a group run by a generation that wanted to give service.  Guess who's duty it is to cause the evolution you want?  Be the change you want in the world.
> 
> I'm interested in the mystical but I knew when I petitioned that not one in a thousand shared my interest.


This is true. I feel pretty comfortable that I am doing what I can at this time to change that.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 28, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> The surface history is that operative lodges started inviting eminent men to join them and that's how we became speculative. Which states that even in the operative days we'd been invitational and the change hadn't been about invitations.
> 
> Switching away from invitations is like the switch away from having toasts at our meals. Not a part of the original design of the order.


Good point!


CLewey44 said:


> I feel pretty comfortable that I am doing what I can at this time to change that.


Great. I'm also trying to attract new, younger members. Hopefully will have a couple of them petitioning soon.


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## dfreybur (Jan 29, 2018)

LK600 said:


> I wonder if this has or is changing?  It seems from my limited exposure newer members are more inclined to be drawn to the esoteric but refrain from discussing it with older members.



It is changing, but as far as the mystical not a lot.  Now maybe one in a hundred.  Lots of young men are coming in looking for values, philosophy, history, life balance and similar topics.  Only a tiny number for the mysticism.  Way more than in previous generations though.

The word esoteric has to be used with care.  In lodge it means the memorized ritual work.  That's a very different meaning than how it's used outside of lodge.

I think in my first decade as a mason I encountered one Brother interested in mysticism, of course a different branch than my interests.  I spent the evening in discussion with him ignoring dinner and visiting Masonic dignitaries.

Now it's some easier but we're still thin on the ground.  I was at a district event and there was a young visitor.  I saw him doodling in a notebook and noticed he was free associating on a mystical topic.  After the meeting I mentioned that the due guards and signs appear to be chakra activations.  He opened his notebook to a color coded chakra chart.  We spent hours sitting on a staircase discussing the topic.


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## LK600 (Jan 29, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> It is changing, but as far as the mystical not a lot.  Now maybe one in a hundred.  Lots of young men are coming in looking for values, philosophy, history, life balance and similar topics.  Only a tiny number for the mysticism.  Way more than in previous generations though.
> 
> The word esoteric has to be used with care.  In lodge it means the memorized ritual work.  That's a very different meaning than how it's used outside of lodge.
> 
> ...



I hope it continues to change.  It is (one of) an area I have high interest in.


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## billyjfootball (Jan 29, 2018)

coachn said:


> And how exactly did it do this?  Please, be specific.



For me it opened my eyes.  We only have so much time on this planet.  I try to stay within myself and not get carried away with things.  It has taught me patience.  It has taught me how I ought to divide my day.  It has taught me to be better to others.  Just being a Mason makes me feel like I ought to be a role model in society.  May sound crazy, it has also made me a better driver.  I have the Square and compasses on my car, so I'm very cautious of all driving laws now.  Don't want anybody to get mad about my driving and think about the Masons in a bad light.  Lastly, It helped me become a leader.


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemason


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## hanzosbm (Jan 29, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> I don't get the leap of illogic here.  The entire point of extending invitations is to invite the best and brightest.


Correction; that's YOUR point of extending invitations.  But there's two problems here. 
First, the lodges that I mentioned in my original post that are slamming through 10 candidates a week are clearly not looking for the best and brightest, they're looking for warm bodies.  Do you think that will somehow change when they can invite people?  Instead of slamming through 10 a week, it'll be 30 per week. 
Second, just because some is 'the best and brightest' doesn't mean that they'll make a good Mason.  And before someone jumps in and says 'well we'd only invite the men who would make good Masons', the point is, if they didn't have any interest in it to begin with, what makes you think they'll be a good Mason?


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## dfreybur (Jan 29, 2018)

hanzosbm said:


> Correction; that's YOUR point of extending invitations.



That's the original intent centuries ago before the switch away from being invitational only.



> Instead of slamming through 10 a week, it'll be 30 per week



You assume that doing invitations would increase petitions from the outside.  Maybe.  Maybe not.

I do see some lodges doing a lot of degrees.  My Shrine gives awards for any Shriner who is the top line signer for 10+ new Shriners or another line signer for 20+ new Shriners or any combination.  Do that type of award with blue lodge degrees and the problem you describe results.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 29, 2018)

I don't know any lodge that does 10 EAs a week, I think too that people could decline any invitations. As a matter of fact, I think it could lessen petitions since the fraternity would have more control on who they even bother with voting on, ent, psg and rsg.


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## Bloke (Jan 29, 2018)

CLewey44 said:


> I don't know any lodge that does 10 EAs a week, I think too that people could decline any invitations. As a matter of fact, I think it could lessen petitions since the fraternity would have more control on who they even bother with voting on, ent, psg and rsg.


My lodges would all decline to do 10 EAs in a year. Once you make them, they need mentoring.. I think the sweet spot (of us meeting monthly) is about 3 candidates per year.


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## Bloke (Jan 29, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> ...The word esoteric has to be used with care.  In lodge it means the memorized ritual work.  That's a very different meaning than how it's used outside of lodge...



I am not sure I agree Bro Doug.  I think "esoteric" always means " _intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest._"... The key is specialized knowledge. We have some esoteric charges, for instance Ecclesiastes - a charge best understood with esoteric knowledge where you understand the analogies. But even "sitting in the East" is esoteric - on the initial level, it means a direction, on a deeper esoteric level, it has something to do with knowledge and understanding - which we esoterically call "light".  Far from being "memorized work" I think in a  lodge "esoteric" is talking about how you, and especially we, interpret and understand that work, and the nomenclature of Freemasonry, especially the collective use of shared interpretations.


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## coachn (Jan 29, 2018)

Bloke said:


> I am not sure I agree Bro Doug.  I think "esoteric" always means " _intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest._"... The key is specialized knowledge. We have some esoteric charges, for instance Ecclesiastes - a charge best understood with esoteric knowledge where you understand the analogies. But even "sitting in the East" is esoteric - on the initial level, it means a direction, on a deeper esoteric level, it has something to do with knowledge and understanding - which we esoterically call "light".  Far from being "memorized work" I think in a  lodge "esoteric" is talking about how you, and especially we, interpret and understand that work, and the nomenclature of Freemasonry, especially the collective use of shared interpretations.


We must have a schism then.  The word has a specific meaning in my jurisdiction and it refers solely to the lettered and masked portion of our ritual.  Which is most likely why we get such weird looks from those who don't define it this way.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 29, 2018)

coachn said:


> We must have a schism then.  The word has a specific meaning in my jurisdiction and it refers solely to the lettered and masked portion of our ritual.  Which is most likely why we get such weird looks from those who don't define it this way.


People give me weird looks even when I don’t use that word.


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## Bloke (Jan 29, 2018)

coachn said:


> We must have a schism then.  The word has a specific meaning in my jurisdiction and it refers solely to the lettered and masked portion of our ritual.  Which is most likely why we get such weird looks from those who don't define it this way.


Inter-rest-ing.

Thanks Coach - I was not aware... is that widespread in the USA ?


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## coachn (Jan 30, 2018)

Bloke said:


> Inter-rest-ing.
> 
> Thanks Coach - I was not aware... is that widespread in the USA ?


It is in my area.


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## Bloke (Jan 30, 2018)

coachn said:


> It is in my area.


LOL


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 30, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> People give me weird looks even when I don’t use that word.


***snicker snicker***


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## dfreybur (Jan 30, 2018)

Bloke said:


> Inter-rest-ing.
> 
> Thanks Coach - I was not aware... is that widespread in the USA ?



All 3 of my jurisdictions have a local definition of the word esoteric to mean that part of the ritual not to be shared except at a degree or with a Brother of that degree.  Plus 1 more jurisdiction where I lived long enough to affiliate but not long enough to pay for a life/endowed membership.  Plus any jurisdictions that I visited enough to learn their local usage.

Exoteric - That part of the ritual that is allowed to be shared with those not of that degree.  Some jurisdictions list the Monitor as exoteric, others don't.

Esoteric - That part of the ritual only to be performed in degrees or as practice with Brothers of that degree.  Typically available in cipher.

These official local definitions definitely confuse the issue of what is and isn't esoteric.  But it does let us discuss the types of secrets that remain secret even if we shout them from the roof tops - We treat each other as family.  There is no method; we just do it.

In fact this local definition of esoteric is why we are allowed to discuss what the ritual means to us as long as we don't quote the words we reference.


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## Bloke (Jan 30, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> All 3 of my jurisdictions have a local definition of the word esoteric to mean that part of the ritual not to be shared except at a degree or with a Brother of that degree.  Plus 1 more jurisdiction where I lived long enough to affiliate but not long enough to pay for a life/endowed membership.  Plus any jurisdictions that I visited enough to learn their local usage.
> 
> Exoteric - That part of the ritual that is allowed to be shared with those not of that degree.  Some jurisdictions list the Monitor as exoteric, others don't.
> 
> ...


Thanks - that's something I did not know; that the word is defined like that. We use in to refer to the deeper meaning of the words and symbols we use..


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## Rifleman1776 (Feb 3, 2018)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Do you think the internet and socail media has played a major part in the decline of our membership ? At anytime a potential candiate can at the press of a finger learn and read anything he wants about freemasonry (not just the ritual, but the problems that we try and fix behind the scenes without exposing to the public but some how always find it's way in a online article leaving a man saying I dont want to be apart of an organization like that ? Although it has opened many doors for education that we didnt once have.... What are your thoughts ?
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS997 using My Freemasonry mobile app



Organizations of all types are having a serious decline in membership, not just Freemasonry.  There was a time when people needed Lodges, Granges, Churches, etc. to gather, socialize and exchange news. Telephones and TV changed all that. Younger people simply are not 'joiners'. I don't have an answer on how to bring it back. My Lodge has put on about a dozen MM degrees in the past couple years. After that we never see them again. I don't understand.


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## coachn (Feb 4, 2018)

JustJames said:
			
		

> >After that we never see them again. I don't understand.
> 
> Last year after an initiation I asked the candidate if he felt any different.  He said he felt bigger.  That was true as he had absorbed significant Light during the ceremony.  He is still attending.


Nah... he really liked the rubber chicken dinner with extra trimmings on the side and continues to come back for more.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 4, 2018)

coachn said:


> Nah... he really liked the rubber chicken dinner with extra trimmings on the side and continues to come back for more.


Lol....you could be right about this coachn.


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## LK600 (Feb 4, 2018)

I wonder what the norm is for Dinner at Lodge.  That might be interesting.  So far for me (though it can change every year) pulled pork would be the norm at my lodge (mostly but not always).


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## Glen Cook (Feb 4, 2018)

My chapter dinner last month was soup, fish, duck (with roast and boiled potatoes and veg), choice of fruit or pudding, and three cheeses. We toast with Drambuie or ginger ale. For another meal, we had grouse as the main.
£105 includes subscription and meals for the three meetings a year.


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## LK600 (Feb 4, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> My chapter dinner last month was soup, fish, duck (with roast and boiled potatoes and veg), choice of fruit or pudding, and three cheeses. We toast with Drambuie or ginger ale. For another meal, we had grouse as the main.
> £105 includes subscription and meals for the three meetings a year.


Sounds really nice.  I'm not sure I could pitch this at my lodge though.  I do think making dinners an event might attract better than a paper plate of food.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 4, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> My chapter dinner last month was soup, fish, duck (with roast and boiled potatoes and veg), choice of fruit or pudding, and three cheeses. We toast with Drambuie or ginger ale. For another meal, we had grouse as the main.
> £105 includes subscription and meals for the three meetings a year.


Wow!


LK600 said:


> Sounds really nice. I'm not sure I could pitch this at my lodge though.


Yeah, it's a little (make that a lot) beyond the means for my lodge.


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## Bloke (Feb 4, 2018)

I'm in a lodge where the average age is < 50. If there is one thing I know, young guys expect a higher quality of meal than some of us who have been around for a long time. Food can be a bit of a make or break thing here if you expect people to stay for dinner.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 4, 2018)

Warrior1256 said:


> Wow!
> 
> Yeah, it's a little (make that a lot) beyond the means for my lodge.


How  much are your annual dues?


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 4, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> How much are your annual dues?


$55.oo per year but we are in really good shape financially so it's really not that. I should have said that it is beyond what I figure that the treasurer and brethren are willing to spend per meal.


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## David612 (Feb 4, 2018)

LK600 said:


> I wonder what the norm is for Dinner at Lodge.  That might be interesting.  So far for me (though it can change every year) pulled pork would be the norm at my lodge (mostly but not always).


Pork would not fly at my lodge.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 4, 2018)

Warrior1256 said:


> $55.oo per year but we are in really good shape financially so it's really not that. I should have said that it is beyond what I figure that the treasurer and brethren are willing to spend per meal.


About $30.00 a meal, catered, including dishes.


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## LK600 (Feb 4, 2018)

David612 said:


> Pork would not fly at my lodge.


Understood.  Our line just changed so the menu most likely will as well.


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## LK600 (Feb 4, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> About $30.00 a meal, catered, including dishes.


I think it would be worth looking into.  Even three a year would be welcome... maybe arranged around something special.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 4, 2018)

LK600 said:


> I think it would be worth looking into.  Even three a year would be welcome... maybe arranged around something special.


Installation and St Johns/ Christmas?


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## LK600 (Feb 4, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Installation and St Johns/ Christmas?


I think that would be great, one for installation, one in June and the other for Christmas or the 27th.  I'll have to research it here before taking it to a meeting.  Thank you Brother Glen.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 4, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> About $30.00 a meal, catered, including dishes.


$30.00 a plate? As I said....that would never fly in my lodges, lol.


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