# Far-right religious group behind outrageous health care lies



## Blake Bowden (Aug 12, 2009)

Daily Kos: State of the Nation


----------



## JBD (Aug 12, 2009)

And the point of this post from one of the most left leaning websites on earth while they hammer a right leaning group?

The information is still correct, and the President confirmed it in his own words on tape

Nevertheless, the purpose in posting this was what exactly?


----------



## Sirius (Aug 12, 2009)

I must say that I am terrified that the government is going to force my grandmother to have an abortion and then not pay for it. 

but seriously, whats so bad about a living will or a 'directive to doctor' in case of an emergency? I damn sure don't want my body kept alive for 15 years because nobody knows what I want. If my brain is dead and my body cant run on its own, let me die. Whats wrong with this? I still don't get it. Many insurance policies cover this type of planning. How is this a 'death panel'?


----------



## Blake Bowden (Aug 12, 2009)

JBD said:


> Nevertheless, the purpose in posting this was what exactly?



Look above..."Off Topic A place for everything else"


----------



## JBD (Aug 12, 2009)

blake said:


> Look above..."Off Topic A place for everything else"



Yes I can read, where is not the answer to why though -


----------



## Blake Bowden (Aug 12, 2009)

You're not going to question every post in the Off Topic area are you?  I often post articles from the left and right as we need to see both sides of the issue. With the unfulfilled promises by the left and the scare tactics from right, we have to navigate through the crap and try to find a glimmer of truth. If our only source of news is Rush Limbaugh or the Huffington Post, we'll be in bad shape.


----------



## Sirius (Aug 12, 2009)

blake said:


> If the only source of news is Rush Limbaugh or the Huffington Post, we'll be in bad shape.



And terrified!


----------



## TCShelton (Aug 12, 2009)

blake said:


> I often post articles from the left and right as we need to see both sides of the issue.



That he does.  I can vouch for that.


----------



## JBD (Aug 12, 2009)

blake said:


> You're not going to question every post in the Off Topic area are you?  .




No as a matter of fact I am not, just everyone that I find necessary to respond to - especially this one.

Tom you can testify to that as well I suspect


----------



## Wingnut (Aug 12, 2009)

Let me ask all here... has ANYONE read the bill yet?  all 1k+ pages?  There is some scary stuff in there!  The fact that most politicians have not and will not read it is really scary!  Obama admits to having not read it as have most congresscritters...


----------



## Sirius (Aug 12, 2009)

Wingnut said:


> Let me ask all here... has ANYONE read the bill yet?  all 1k+ pages?  There is some scary stuff in there!  The fact that most politicians have not and will not read it is really scary!  Obama admits to having not read it as have most congresscritters...



there are 5 bills in the House and 1 in the Senate, to which do you refer? Which did you read?


----------



## Wingnut (Aug 12, 2009)

only 1 has made it out of committee in either


----------



## JTM (Aug 12, 2009)

blake said:


> You're not going to question every post in the Off Topic area are you?



take a side in your original post, or comment about it so that i can reply.

otherwise i'm bound to say, "Daily KOS is liberal hippy crap"

they spend more than half of the article debunking the people, and then half ass their rebuttal.  i'm not impressed in the least.


----------



## Blake Bowden (Aug 12, 2009)

JTM said:


> they spend more than half of the article debunking the people, and then half ass their rebuttal.  i'm not impressed in the least.



Does that make the article illegitimate? Why aren't we discussing the facts they presented?


----------



## JTM (Aug 12, 2009)

blake said:


> Does that make the article illegitimate? Why aren't we discussing the facts they presented?



i'd ask the same of them.  i'm criticizing their article.


----------



## Wingnut (Aug 12, 2009)

Do NOT confuse the issue with the facts!


----------



## owls84 (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm confussed... I really am. What are we debating here? This thread has jumped 3 times and pissed a few people off? I mean really. If we say no to the dang thing do you honestly think it can stop it from going through? I am all for writing and calling a congressman and have on several occasions, but do you think that once they got the letter? They are going by what they get a bigger kick back on. I know I can't compete with a pharmacutical company or a heathcare provider. 

I want each and every one of you to sit and think about your local government and then the state. At what point does it get corrupt? What is a plan of action here? Sure we can complain all we want but the truth is WE ALL just benifitted from something we wanted being tacked on and slid under the door of Congress. HB2555 for the property tax. Why else would do you think that GM did not want us to call our congress members? Plus just as he stated and I heard him there is more to come on this. He is still working the system. 

So I ask why is it ok sometimes and not ok others? There is not one person on this forum that can tell me that the healthcare system in the USA is right and does not need to be fixed. Does it need to be left up to the States? Maybe, but Perry has had his chance to fix it and he hasn't done squat. Now that its an election year and he has to show his face he just now decided to bring up the topic. I'm sorry but I am not sure that the plan on the floor is the best plan but something has to change period. Heathcare companies have too much power over us as a middleclass and it needs to stop. 

Note: I am not for or against this. Actually from everything I have seen I would fall under the same thing as the President or Congress themselves and not be using a sysyem like this since I work at Lockheed and we have our insurance negotiated in our union contracts. The only way I would be effected would be a tax increase and even if it is $10 a week and the way I look at is if a I can help insure more children in America then I don't care about the $520.  JMHO


----------



## Sirius (Aug 13, 2009)

owls84 said:


> At what point does it get corrupt? What is a plan of action here? Sure we can complain all we want but the truth is WE ALL just benifitted from something we wanted being tacked on and slid under the door of Congress.
> 
> So I ask why is it ok sometimes and not ok others? There is not one person on this forum that can tell me that the healthcare system in the USA is right and does not need to be fixed.
> 
> ...



 Very reasonable.


----------



## Wingnut (Aug 13, 2009)

owls84 said:


> I'm confussed... I really am. What are we debating here? This thread has jumped 3 times and pissed a few people off? I mean really. If we say no to the dang thing do you honestly think it can stop it from going through?



I didnt realize people were pissed...



owls84 said:


> I want each and every one of you to sit and think about your local government and then the state. At what point does it get corrupt?



at the local level.  It takes much less money to influence a small town mayor than a congresscritter.  For that matter a city councilman.  witness whats going on in Dallas right now...



owls84 said:


> Sure we can complain all we want but the truth is WE ALL just benifitted from something we wanted being tacked on and slid under the door of Congress. HB2555 for the property tax. Why else would do you think that GM did not want us to call our congress members?



Agreed, I had concerns at the time this came up.  Didnt seem to be on the level as it were



owls84 said:


> So I ask why is it ok sometimes and not ok others?


It shouldnt be.  Its a political reality but it shouldnt be.




owls84 said:


> There is not one person on this forum that can tell me that the healthcare system in the USA is right and does not need to be fixed.



fixing yes, overhauled to the point of the government running it?  no!  Id rather keep what I have, which if you make any change at all, any change to your current policy its out the window and your stuck with the ghubment plan.  If the federal government wants to fix healthcare, lets start with fixing medicare and medicaid!  Its already bankrupting the country and is filled with corruption.  Baby steps would be better fix whats there first, then move to improving it by adding more to it.




owls84 said:


> Heathcare companies have too much power over us as a middleclass and it needs to stop. ?



Healthcare insurance companies have a 3.5% profit margine.  Fertilizer companies have around a 15% profit margine!  Ive seen military health care, the VA, medicare etc.  FAIL!   How well do you think a bureaucracy in DC will manage health care?  Honestly?  There goal will be to minimize direct costs and will have more layers than a 1015 onion.  By direct costs I mean the cost for medical treatment.  With the headcount they will add at every layer the costs to the taxpayer will be HUGE.  

Every country in the world that has government run medicine has a much higher cancer rate, lower cancer survival rate.  One example I saw online was talking about how long it takes to get in to get an MRI done in England... 8 months is about normal.  Here?  I can get in tomorrow or even today.  

One person mentioned that the US has a better medical infrastructure than the other countries do.  I wonder why?  US has something like 1 MRI for every 300 people.  UK its more like 3000.  Why?  Doctors and hospitals bought them.  The government doesnt want to put out the money for them.  With few exceptions, very few new innovations in surgery, medicine and equipment comes from any other country but the US...  I wonder why?  Making money is a huge incentive.  If there is no profit in it most wont spend the money to research it or develop it.  I seriously doubt the government will invest the time and money into and if they do the money has to come from somewhere to pay for it.

In order to fix the problem we need to define the problem.  Honest open discussions.  Not using inflated numbers of how many dont have insurance.  Example,  I asked my congressman if I was included as part of the uninsured.  After all I dont have my companies insurance, I turned down the military retiree insurance so thats 2 reports I show up on as uninsured.  Wait!  Im on my wifes policy at CVS because its a better policy than the government policy via the military or the AT&T policy... the answer was yea Im getting counted twice as uninsured.  Illegal aliens are being counted as part of the uninsured. Opps just ran into the points of a compasses!


----------



## Sirius (Aug 13, 2009)

Wingnut said:


> In order to fix the problem we need to define the problem.  Honest open discussions.  Not using inflated numbers of how many dont have insurance.  Example,  I asked my congressman if I was included as part of the uninsured.  After all I dont have my companies insurance, I turned down the military retiree insurance so thats 2 reports I show up on as uninsured.  Wait!  Im on my wifes policy at CVS because its a better policy than the government policy via the military or the AT&T policy... the answer was yea Im getting counted twice as uninsured.  Illegal aliens are being counted as part of the uninsured. Opps just ran into the points of a compasses!



While I disagree on some points I must say that I always enjoy hearing an informed opinion, even if I disagree.

For rebuttal, the proposal includes things that will bring costs down and reign in waste in medicare/caid. Most importantly the government isn't going to 'take over' health care, just provide an option. That being said, the need for it can be debated. 

Health care costs have doubled in 10 years, if we're really worried about debt, this should be everyone's priority.


----------



## JBD (Aug 13, 2009)

owls84 said:


> I'm confussed... I really am. What are we debating here? This thread has jumped 3 times and pissed a few people off? I mean really. If we say no to the dang thing do you honestly think it can stop it from going through? I am all for writing and calling a congressman and have on several occasions, but do you think that once they got the letter? They are going by what they get a bigger kick back on. I know I can't compete with a pharmacutical company or a heathcare provider.
> 
> I want each and every one of you to sit and think about your local government and then the state. At what point does it get corrupt? What is a plan of action here? Sure we can complain all we want but the truth is WE ALL just benifitted from something we wanted being tacked on and slid under the door of Congress. HB2555 for the property tax. Why else would do you think that GM did not want us to call our congress members? Plus just as he stated and I heard him there is more to come on this. He is still working the system.
> 
> ...



Josh - I have been in healthcare all my adult life.  I have a degree in Healthcare Management.  There are many misstatements in your post and you are not to blame.  By and large the healthcare community - providers especially, do a terrible job of explaining the situation and too much is left to pharma, insurance, major equipment manufacturers, regulators and politicians along with the willing liberal media to tell the story.

In that regard healthcare is not much different than Masonry.  We (both groups) have essentially not provide accurate timely succinct information in anticipation of misinformation or in response thereto.

In response to your specific issues - Keep contacting your elected representatives.  Phone calls work best - they have to answer the phone; they log calls and opinions - emails work, but not as well, faxes next, mail is a no-no since all the security issues they don't handle paper well especially in DC.  The kickback thing is not really as prevalent as you think.  It occurs in some form but most of these guys (and Women) go what they are told by staff and others with access - that is the real deal with the $$ in DC - access.  You can compete, you have an internet, a group of friends, acquaintences and they all have the same - stand and speak up.

The bill you are talking about (HB2555) did not go through Congress it went throug the Legislature.  Our amendment was tacked onto this bill because ours got stuck in a procedural play by another group in Austin who wanted to make a statement.  It happens every year.  The GM DID NOT say to not call because he was trying to do something strange, he did it because he wanted to make sure that nothing rocked the boat this time.  It was a foregone conclusion the bill would pass and all you need are 97.000 people trying to keep the message straight - heck we can't get 50 us to decide on what we want for dinner at a stated meeting.  One voice speaking for us was what he wanted - he said if and when he needed us he would call.   Adding amendments to bills that even remotely are on the same subject happens all the time.  Heck even I have done it - and I am far from sinister.  It is simply the only way somethings get done -they still get voted on just as part of a bill- just not THE bill.

There is one person on this forum the can tell you the healthcare system in the US is right, but no one can say it cannot be improved.  It is a fact that some 95% of all AMERICANS are covered, the 20million illegals are not.

There is not one place in the United States that you can go and not receive care - as long as there is care there - if you need it.  It may not be as convenient, it may not be as efficient, it may not be a luxurious, but it will be life sustaining care.  

You live or work in Texas - hospitals in this state are required by the Feds and state law to provide care or provide for its provision.  In Tarrant County you have JPS (2 hospitals, 6 community clinics, at leat 6 school clinics, three jail clinics); THR Harris Methodist 5 hospitals FE, Azle, HEB, Arlington and SW - it is part of their charitable mission to provide care - I used to work there I can tell you they do it.  Baylor has 3 locations - they are tied to the Baptist Church.  So through County and Faith Based you have 11 hospitals in just one county.  

There are reduced pharmacy programs at Mission Arlington, Cooks Childrens, Wal-Mart and other locations.  In Tarrant County there are only 4 for profit hospitals and they are required to provide life sustaining and stabilizing treatment.

Healthcare, like education, transportation, water sanitation and many other services are not the responsibility of the Feds, the constitution states anything not specifically stated is left to the states.  Until 1965 this country operated with the City, County, State and faith based programs for all the healthcare provided.  There were a few hospitals owned by Doctors and a few attached to academia.

Perry?  What did you want fixed first?  He was dealing with immigration issues, drug wars and a host of other border issues.  Is he perfect - no. Is he the cause of this problem - NO.  Can he fixt is alone - NO.  Healthcare in Texas, in most parts of the state is not as broken as you might think.  Medicaid still has money, it still provides services for the poor, Medicare still works, Mental healthcare is still available both inpatient and out patient, the Shrine and Scottish Rite along with Cooks has the kiddies covered.  

In several other states that I work in the state ran out of money several years ago and continue to be in the red every year.  Those states?  99.99% are heavily taxed, more heavily regulated and are suffering because of it.  Ask people on Medicaid in Mississippi, Illinois, Louisiana and California - ask them how their Medicaid works.  Ask Doctors in Illinois how they liked not having tort reform?  Ever wonder why so many of them are in Texas in the past 5 years?  You guessed it; that evil Perry got tort reform and signed it into law.  Tort reform reduced malpractice insurance by more than 20% and yoiur doctor is still able to practice, pay his premiums AND his staff.


Now you want to hang this on him?  Go read the state constitution.  The governor of Texas has little power - he can call a special session, he can stomp his feet, he cannot set legislative agendas, he cannot foresee what manufactured issued will need to be responded to.  

The plan on the floor is NOT the best plan.  It is a takeover of our healthcare system - which, despite its flaws, is still the best, most efficient, most accessable and safest in the world.  Stop with the middle class gobblty goop.  The INSURANCE companies may have control, but they are no more Healthcare companies than State Farm is an automaker.

Your last paragraph indicates you would fall under the same thing the President or Congress has - guess again.  As long as you are employed there, as long as they continue to provide coverage you would have it - leave there or they no longer provide group coverage - you are in the public bucket with the Indians, the Vets, and the rest of us.  You are dreaming if you think your working at Lockheed is going to do anything to keep you out of socialized care.  Out of BHO's own mouth - it may take a while for us to get there but single payer is where we are going. 

Why do you think the penalty is only 8% if your employer decides not to cover you?  Because most companies will opt to pay the tax, same the money they spend on benefits and reduce HR staff and complaints and let the government provide it.

If you think the government can run anything look at the Post Office, AMTRAK, the Public Health Service, the Indian Health Service, VA hospitals and FQHC - the BOP (Bureau of Prisions) has better healthcare than most of these, why?  They contract most of it out.


I do not intend this to be a lecture, but I am just fed up with the misinformation campaign that is out there - I am one healthcare guy who is proud to be in the industry, proud of what we do in this country, how many people are saved every year and how the average life expectancy has increased just in my lifetime despite our ability to shove 40 extra pounds on us, smoke like chimenies, drink like fish and be too lazy to jump us and change the channel.

We have technology that saves lives, cuts down hospital stays to hours instead of days; circumvents open surgical procedures which reduces time off work from weeks to days for all but the most aggressive surgeries; we have the ability to intervene in disease processes before they kill you and there is a drug for darn near anything.  All of these advances took money to do.  Each prescription drug take a minimum of 10 Million to get to the market and probably only 1 or 2 out of 100 make it.  

Anyway - it is sort of like that bumper sticker you see a Lodge, if you can read this Thank A Teacher - if you can read it in English Thank a Soldier.  I would add - if you do it without an Iron Lung, WheelChair or zipper in your belly or chest thank your healthcare system.

OK, so where did you guys put the "RANT OFF" button???


----------



## Wingnut (Aug 13, 2009)

about to leave work to go to a Summoned meeting... but real fast:

If you think the government run health care will be great... ask one of our Indian brothers living on a reservation what they think of government health care!


----------



## Sirius (Aug 13, 2009)

JBD said:


> OK, so where did you guys put the "RANT OFF" button???



Another well informed opinion. 

I disagree with a few things, 95% of Americans are not insured. Go out to Sabine County in East Texas. Hispanic Pop of less than a percent and 50% of the people there have no health insurance. And they are Americans and they are typical of rural America. 

Why does everyone think that with this option, all other plans will cease to exist. I'm sure Josh has great plan through Lockheed. Why would they dump that plan for the public option. It's part of his compensation package. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office  ,which is pretty good at these things, forecasts only 10 million Americans (2.5% of the population) would potentially sign up for it. Why is it so important to keep health care from these people?


----------



## JBD (Aug 13, 2009)

Sabine County is not a typical county.  However the people of Sabine County are not without medical services, there is a Hospital District there and the physical facility is very good.  The citizens there are not without healthcare services.

If Lockheed could pay 8% for the employees to have the public option and if they are currently paying 12% what do you think will happen?  The threshold for mandated coverage is payroll of 250,000 or more that is not much. 

The CBO said that is the number that owuld sign up for it, that does not take into account those who would be forced into it.

One issue - if it is such a jewel, why does the majority of both parties in congress say they will not access the public option?.


----------



## Blake Bowden (Aug 13, 2009)

Great posts! I'm learning quite a bit. And JBD that is the answer to your original question. I create posts like this to stir debate so we can discuss and learn about the issue we face.  We can't rely on left or right ringers to do it for us. Thank you guys!


----------



## Wingnut (Aug 14, 2009)

Dang it!  You  beat me to the reason why companies will opt out...  ATT claims that a vast majority of their income goes to covering health insurance.  Our union currently has NO deduction, NO copay and I believe a very low copay on meds.  Managments, not so good, not near as good but thats another story.  I have no doubt if they can drop that cost to only 8% it will be done, they are after all trying to make a profit.


----------



## owls84 (Aug 14, 2009)

Ok , so what do we do to fix it? How can we insure all CITIZENS of America? Better yet how can we make good healtcare availible to 100% of Americans? How can the Scottish Rite and the Shrine hospitals be the best in the world and be free? This shows me that it can work.


----------



## JTM (Aug 14, 2009)

give 1.7 tril (how much the US spent on healthcare in 03) to the shriners/scottish rite/charities and i'm sure they can handle it.


----------



## TCShelton (Aug 14, 2009)

JTM said:


> give 1.7 tril (how much the US spent on healthcare in 03) to the shriners/scottish rite/charities and i'm sure they can handle it.



...And still have some money left over to buy some new go-carts too.:beer:


----------



## JTM (Aug 14, 2009)

don't forget the beer.


----------



## Sirius (Aug 14, 2009)

JBD said:


> If Lockheed could pay 8% for the employees to have the public option and if they are currently paying 12% what do you think will happen?  The threshold for mandated coverage is payroll of 250,000 or more that is not much.



OK we're beating Lockheed to death here but, ...

Cheaper insurance than the policy currently in place is already avail, why don't they go ahead and switch? Beacause it part of employee compensation. 

Yes Sabine Parish, err County does have a decent hospital, But what about the folks showing up to the emergency rooms for preventative medicine (or what could have been prevented). We all know how much JPS costs and a huge portion of that is people without insurance. Now I know you'll say its mainly the 'Mexicans', which they are a good portion. But the same is still true with preventative medicine they would not be in our emergency rooms costing us so much. 

Shouldn't we want to bring costs down to save all of us money?


----------



## Sirius (Aug 14, 2009)

Found a great article by Charles Krauthammer about why preventative care doesn't save much $. 

washingtonpost.com

Why cant we have more logical debate like this? He makes a great argument. I don't completely agree, but he does use sound logic. Which is much better than invited death squads that kill Timmy (aka TIMMY!) and Granma.


----------



## Wingnut (Aug 14, 2009)

owls84 said:


> Ok , so what do we do to fix it? How can we insure all CITIZENS of America? Better yet how can we make good healtcare availible to 100% of Americans? How can the Scottish Rite and the Shrine hospitals be the best in the world and be free? This shows me that it can work.



Problem is, its NOT free.  There is no charge to the patients, big difference.  The costs are covered by grants, endowments, investments, fund raisings and gifts.  The docs, orderly, tech, janitors, cooks etc all need to be paid.  The equipment has to be purchased etc etc.


----------



## JBD (Aug 14, 2009)

Sirius said:


> OK we're beating Lockheed to death here but, ...
> 
> Cheaper insurance than the policy currently in place is already avail, why don't they go ahead and switch? Beacause it part of employee compensation.
> 
> ...



That beeping sound you hear is the truck backing up - I never said it was "Mexicans".  I said illegals - they are here from all kinds of places.

Exactly what preventative medicine are you referring to?  Exactly when did it become anyone's responsibility to care for you from the erection to the resurrection?  That aside, there are options out there.  In Fort Worth you have the county health department, the city health department, you have other avenues.  I cannot specifically address all the levels of Sabine County since it has been a while since I have been there.  They do have other county resources.

This concept of "coverage" and "insurance" is a relatively new concept.  Many of you are not old enough to remember anything else so you think it is totally foriegn, new, never tried and risky.  In "the olden days" (like pre 1986 or so) the concept of copays, full first dollar coverage and other strange things was barely a topic of conversation.  Most everyone was covered by an indemnity plan.  It looks like your car insurance.

Just like you do not insure your car for oil changes, flat tires, brake shoes, washing, waxing and you do not have first dollar (no deductible) comp for glass breakage and collision.  This is what lots of major employer coverages are and it is what HMO and PPO arrangements look like.  

People realize that kind of auto coverage is not rational but they want it for their healthcare. They want people to insure their maintenance, insure the minor things that happen to them and insure it from 0, 5, 10, 15 or 25 dollars out of pocket.  

Imagine you had a rock hit your windshield - under normal coverage are you expecting Allstate to provide first dollar coverage?  Did you spend the extra to buy a low deductible or did you say hmmmm that is 10 bucks a month and if the window is $200, all I have to do it make it 21 months and I am in the money - that is a rationale approach to car insurance - even homeowners insurance.  But somehow this is not rational, any longer, to apply to health insurance.

This is not that complicated.  I did not come from a wealthy family.  My Dad was a blue collar guy all his life.  My brother and I were born, made it through school and neither us nor my parents died or did without some form of healthcare.  We never had a "copay" we never had any of that we had a basic 80/20 indemnity plan.  We picked our own doctors, our own drug stores and the like we were involved in controlling the costs of our healthcare.  The deductible worked just like your car insurance and then you paid 20% of the bill and the insurance paid 80%.  After some predetermined dollar amount known as "maximum out of pocket" the insurance paid 100%.  This covered you for big losses.  Just like your car or house insurance does not pay for oil changes or broken windows neither did this.  The incentive to stay healthy, eat right and apply some common sense to situations worked.  It still can and we do not need universal coverages or socialized medicine.  

What we do need is less regulation, less meddling, less HMO, PPO and insurance company crap.  It is funny, the pie never got bigger, there never was more money.  The only thing managed about managed care is they managed to move the money from the provider to the insurance company AND the Medicare program managed to move the money to the government general fund.

We can talk about cost shifting next if you all want to.


----------



## Sirius (Aug 14, 2009)

JBD said:


> This concept of "coverage" and "insurance" is a relatively new concept.  Many of you are not old enough to remember anything else so you think it is totally foriegn, new, never tried and risky.  In "the olden days" (like pre 1986 or so) the concept of copays, full first dollar coverage and other strange things was barely a topic of conversation.  Most everyone was covered by an indemnity plan.  It looks like your car insurance.
> 
> Just like you do not insure your car for oil changes, flat tires, brake shoes, washing, waxing and you do not have first dollar (no deductible) comp for glass breakage and collision.  This is what lots of major employer coverages are and it is what HMO and PPO arrangements look like.
> 
> ...



That's one of the best arguments I've heard so far. Thank you for that. I still don't quite agree. But, you do make many valid points. The city of FW does provide low cost vaccinations and other preventative care. And it does seem a little ridiculous to expect insurance to cover something small. We don't call the insurance company when we buy a bottle of ibuprofen. At least I don't.  

That being said, (as an example) we do have people showing up to the JPS ER with sever pneumonia that is highly expensive to treat. Yet a week earlier it was a cheaply treatable bronchitis. 

I think the end point here is, should health care be a right or a privilege? If it is not a right who decides who gets the privilege?


----------



## TCShelton (Aug 14, 2009)

You guys have been paying for my medical coverage for the last 10 years, so it really doesn't matter to me... :beer:


----------



## JBD (Aug 14, 2009)

TCShelton said:


> You guys have been paying for my medical coverage for the last 10 years, so it really doesn't matter to me... :beer:




Yeah we have and have you looked in the mirror lately??


----------



## TCShelton (Aug 14, 2009)

JBD said:


> Yeah we have and have you looked in the mirror lately??



Yep, I am a walking reason why this isn't a good idea.:beer:


----------

