# Mormonism and Freemasonry



## Blake Bowden (Jan 29, 2014)

Interesting read...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Freemasonry


----------



## Brother_Steve (Jan 29, 2014)

I'm guessing it was the Morgan Affair that happened in 1826 that spurred the anti-masonic feelings with Smith?


----------



## dfreybur (Jan 29, 2014)

Brother_Steve said:


> I'm guessing it was the Morgan Affair that happened in 1826 that spurred the anti-masonic feelings with Smith?



Local fundamentalist clergy incited riots against the new religion.  That has happened with a number of founders of new religions.


----------



## cacarter (Jan 30, 2014)

An old coach of mine was made a mason in North Carolina, but lives in Arizona now. He won't go to lodge because the GL of AZ allows Mormons to be masons. I don't know why he has those feelings about mormons in masonry. Oh well.


----------



## MarkR (Jan 31, 2014)

cacarter said:


> An old coach of mine was made a mason in North Carolina, but lives in Arizona now. He won't go to lodge because the GL of AZ allows Mormons to be masons. I don't know why he has those feelings about mormons in masonry. Oh well.


Does North Carolina NOT allow Mormons to become Masons?  In Minnesota, the only religious qualification is being able to answer yes to "Do you have a sincere belief and trust in God?"  End of discussion.


----------



## cacarter (Jan 31, 2014)

I'm not sure whether it does or not, but I would doubt it.


----------



## BryanMaloney (Jan 31, 2014)

If it doesn't, wouldn't that be in violation of the Ancient Landmarks?


----------



## Companion Joe (Jan 31, 2014)

This is complete speculation, as I do not know the workings of the GL of NC but do know many NC Masons, but while I doubt it's written in stone, I suspect that many individual Lodges would reject a Mormon because of the whole polygamy thing. Yes, the practice is officially outlawed by the Mormon church, but it does pop up from time to time with a few extreme groups. I may be completely off base, but my guess is that's it.

Many Southern jurisdictions have some hard line Bible Belters as members. We have one member who has lived with a woman for years and years. They are a happy couple and "man and wife" in ever since of the word except having a piece of paper issued by the government that says they should pay joint taxes. In casual conversation, it was brought up one night that if certain people had known he wasn't legally married at the time of his ballot, he would have never gotten in. I was on an investigating committee not long ago where one of the other members asked the petitioner if he'd ever been drunk. Sex and drinking are big no-no's!

When I call their attention to the wages of a FC Mason, some old timers will say, "They just call it that. It wasn't alcoholic back then." Uhhhhh, right. :54:


----------



## rfuller (Jan 31, 2014)

Companion Joe said:


> I was on an investigating committee not long ago where one of the other members asked the petitioner if he'd ever been drunk. Sex and drinking are big no-no's!
> 
> When I call their attention to the wages of a FC Mason, some old timers will say, "They just call it that. It wasn't alcoholic back then." Uhhhhh, right. :54:



I would gently point out to that brother that there are too many verses in the old testament about drunkenness for wine to not be alcoholic.  As an abstainer he would also be unlikely to understand the verses following the first miracle.  Bringing out the best wine at the end of party is uncommon because it all starts to taste the same after you've had a few.  And then there are those verses that specifically say "don't get drunk on wine" which would absolutely imply that it was an alcoholic beverage at the time of the first miracle.  *sigh*  

Well, I suppose we take all kinds, right?


----------



## goomba (Jan 31, 2014)

At time Masons are our own worst enemies.  We claim to not be a church or a religion (which is true) but then have issue with non-(insert anything different here) joining my lodge.  I am in a Bible Belt lodge and would have no issue with a member of LDS joining my lodge.


----------



## Companion Joe (Jan 31, 2014)

Don't even get me started on what they think if you play cards!


----------



## dfreybur (Jan 31, 2014)

goomba said:


> We claim to not be a church or a religion (which is true) but then have issue with non-(insert anything different here) joining my lodge.



By the grace of God and two decades of time and effort on my part - I am now able to demit from any lodge I am a member of if I ever see a rejected ballot or a negative recommendation that I believe to be because of religious membership.  On the one hand I've never seen it happen.  On the other hand I'm pretty careful at vetting lodges that I affiliate with.

Before I petitioned it was a hard and fast requirement for me that Masonry actually lives up to its claims of freedom of religion.  My lodges have never let me down on the issue.  Not the 4 I am currently a member of.  Not the 1 I demitted because I relocated out of their region and was not yet a life/endowed member.  Not any that I have visited during a ballot.

I think brothers act more in line with our values than discussions like this suggest.  How much this is because our investigation committees are not supposed to ask beyond "Do you believe in the existence of a supreme being" and thus generally don't know, I can't say.  To me that's the primary value of our landmark against sectarian discussion.  We often don't know and it can be decades before we learn a brother's faith of choice.  By that time he's an old friend and any prejudice we hold falls down goes boom.


----------



## Companion Joe (Jan 31, 2014)

Our petitions from the Grand Lodge ask: Are you a member of a church? _____. Give its name ___________. So, you would have that information when the petition is read in open Lodge. I don't think it would mater, but members would know.

In 20 years as a Mason, I can think of one petition where the guy wasn't Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, or Lutheran. This guy was Catholic. When the petition was read, someone asked if that wasn't a problem on the Catholic church's side. I said if it is, that's the church's problem, not ours.


----------



## jvarnell (Jan 31, 2014)

It is my opion people tie the word religion to the dogma of a group of people.  Freemasonary to me is a way for all of the religions of the world work together.  You can believe the way you want as long as you believe in something.  I believe the god of Christianity is the same as the Gods of all people and everyone wrote down what they saw.  Everyone just did not observe the same thing.  That is how I see it and you don't have to see it my way you just have to beleive in something.


----------



## BryanMaloney (Feb 1, 2014)

Companion Joe said:


> When I call their attention to the wages of a FC Mason, some old timers will say, "They just call it that. It wasn't alcoholic back then." Uhhhhh, right. :54:



That's a very common lie told by stridently anti-alcohol sects. Believing it relies, of course, on a great deal of ignorance. Within a single day, any "grape juice" that is not heavily pasteurized, micro-filtered or refrigerated WILL become alcoholic. "Grape juice" as a commodity did not exist until the 20th century. It just couldn't exist. However, the fact that they can be easily prove to be lying won't stop the sects from continuing to lie.


----------



## BryanMaloney (Feb 1, 2014)

Companion Joe said:


> Our petitions from the Grand Lodge ask: Are you a member of a church? _____. Give its name ___________. So, you would have that information when the petition is read in open Lodge. I don't think it would mater, but members would know.
> 
> In 20 years as a Mason, I can think of one petition where the guy wasn't Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, or Lutheran. This guy was Catholic. When the petition was read, someone asked if that wasn't a problem on the Catholic church's side. I said if it is, that's the church's problem, not ours.



Wow. And they call themselves Freemasons? Let me guess, a Jew or Muslim wouldn't even get a copy of the petition?


----------



## JohnnyFlotsam (Feb 1, 2014)

cacarter said:


> An old coach of mine was made a mason in North Carolina, but lives in Arizona now. He won't go to lodge because the GL of AZ allows Mormons to be masons. I don't know why he has those feelings about mormons in masonry. Oh well.


Uhm..., I don't believe that there is a Grand Lodge in the world that does _not _"allow Mormon's to be Masons". What an utterly absurd thing for someone claiming to be a Mason to object to.


----------



## Companion Joe (Feb 1, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> That's a very common lie told by stridently anti-alcohol sects. Believing it relies, of course, on a great deal of ignorance. Within a single day, any "grape juice" that is not heavily pasteurized, micro-filtered or refrigerated WILL become alcoholic. "Grape juice" as a commodity did not exist until the 20th century. It just couldn't exist. However, the fact that they can be easily prove to be lying won't stop the sects from continuing to lie.



My usual reply is "you're right, it isn't like the wine today, it was probably a whole lot stronger!" Yes, grape juice or any other fruit can ferment. That's why yellow jackets are so mean during the summer time. They get to eating fermented apples and grapes that have fallen on the ground and get liquored up!


----------



## Companion Joe (Feb 1, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> Wow. And they call themselves Freemasons? Let me guess, a Jew or Muslim wouldn't even get a copy of the petition?



Yes, we actually do call ourselves Freemasons and members of our Grand Lodge have been doing so 25 years longer than yours, a little more than 200 years to be exact. My personal lodge members have been calling themselves Masons for 213 years.


----------



## sirius186 (Feb 1, 2014)

Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


----------



## jwhoff (Feb 1, 2014)

Companion Joe said:


> This is complete speculation, as I do not know the workings of the GL of NC but do know many NC Masons, but while I doubt it's written in stone, I suspect that many individual Lodges would reject a Mormon because of the whole polygamy thing. Yes, the practice is officially outlawed by the Mormon church, but it does pop up from time to time with a few extreme groups. I may be completely off base, but my guess is that's it.
> 
> Many Southern jurisdictions have some hard line Bible Belters as members. We have one member who has lived with a woman for years and years. They are a happy couple and "man and wife" in ever since of the word except having a piece of paper issued by the government that says they should pay joint taxes. In casual conversation, it was brought up one night that if certain people had known he wasn't legally married at the time of his ballot, he would have never gotten in. I was on an investigating committee not long ago where one of the other members asked the petitioner if he'd ever been drunk. Sex and drinking are big no-no's!
> 
> When I call their attention to the wages of a FC Mason, some old timers will say, "They just call it that. It wasn't alcoholic back then." Uhhhhh, right. :54:



Fascinating!  That is one excellent display of athletic prowess.

After the second jump into a glass of wine as big as you are ... WOW!  

... and the guy never misses. 

Talk about EXTREME GAMES!

Oh, yes.  Excellent topic as well.


----------



## JohnnyFlotsam (Feb 2, 2014)

Companion Joe said:


> Yes, we actually do call ourselves Freemasons and members of our Grand Lodge have been doing so 25 years longer than yours, a little more than 200 years to be exact. My personal lodge members have been calling themselves Masons for 213 years.


So... you're not going to answer the question about the odds of a non-xtian being accepted into your Lodge?

And FWIW, asking specifics about a man's religion on the petition is inappropriate. We are not supposed to care about the nature of the man's belief, only that he has it. Right?


----------



## Companion Joe (Feb 2, 2014)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> So... you're not going to answer the question about the odds of a non-xtian being accepted into your Lodge?
> 
> And FWIW, asking specifics about a man's religion on the petition is inappropriate. We are not supposed to care about the nature of the man's belief, only that he has it. Right?



I can not answer the question on a statewide basis. I can not speak for 45,000 people. Also, I didn't write the state-approved petitions. I was just adding additional information on the topic at hand. As for Jews or Muslims in my specific town wanting a petition, I have never seen nor heard tell of one. I am sure there are some in the larger cities. Whether or not they have sought admittance, I do not know. That is neither good, bad, nor indifferent commentary. It's just a statement of fact. Personally, if I met someone who I thought would make a good Mason, and he asked for a petition, how he worshiped wouldn't be major concern of mine. 

I will point out that in my jurisdiction, the first of the three Great Lights of Masonry is specific.


----------



## MarkR (Feb 3, 2014)

Companion Joe said:


> I will point out that in my jurisdiction, the first of the three Great Lights of Masonry is specific.


As it is in ours; the Holy Bible must be on the altar when Lodge is open.  However, we can also have other VSLs in addition, and an initiate can specify a VSL other than the Holy Bible to take his obligations if he wishes.


----------



## CuAllaidh (Feb 3, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> Wow. And they call themselves Freemasons? Let me guess, a Jew or Muslim wouldn't even get a copy of the petition?



The petition in my jurisdiction asks these questions as well, although I can tell you from personal experience they are fine with non-christians.


----------



## dfreybur (Feb 3, 2014)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> And FWIW, asking specifics about a man's religion on the petition is inappropriate. We are not supposed to care about the nature of the man's belief, only that he has it. Right?



I noticed that.  Technically, reading the answers on the petition would be introducing sectarian religion into lodge discussion and thus a landmark violation.  It's on the petition form and thus technically allowed.  If I were a member of that jurisdiction I would consider getting signatures for legislation to get that part of the petition changed.  I don't think I would consider it a high enough priority to actually get around to presenting at GL over it, though.  Bigger fish to fry than words on a form until I know someone declined to petition when he read the form.


----------



## JohnnyFlotsam (Feb 4, 2014)

CuAllaidh said:


> The petition in my jurisdiction asks these questions as well, although I can tell you from personal experience they are fine with non-christians.



And for the candidate whose truthful answer is something akin to... "I don't worship in a church", how fine would they be?

It is 2014 and we should all be well aware that there are valid spiritual paths that don't look much like your run-of-the-mill, Sunday go to meeting denominations. So why ask such questions, other than to identify/intimidate someone who is too different for us to be comfortable with?


----------



## CuAllaidh (Feb 4, 2014)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> And for the candidate whose truthful answer is something akin to... "I don't worship in a church", how fine would they be?
> 
> It is 2014 and we should all be well aware that there are valid spiritual paths that don't look much like your run-of-the-mill, Sunday go to meeting denominations. So why ask such questions, other than to identify/intimidate someone who is too different for us to be comfortable with?



Well being as that is exactly the case for me I can tell you it phases them but not significantly. As for the why ask, not sure, I am guessing its been on the form for some time and no one's questioned it.


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 25, 2014)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> Uhm..., I don't believe that there is a Grand Lodge in the world that does _not _"allow Mormon's to be Masons". What an utterly absurd thing for someone claiming to be a Mason to object to.


Correct, but until 1984, for a period of some 60 years, the Grand Lodge of Utah did not.  This was accepted by the other GL's.


----------



## Morris (Aug 26, 2014)

Glen Cook said:


> Correct, but until 1984, for a period of some 60 years, the Grand Lodge of Utah did not.  This was accepted by the other GL's.



Wow!  

Was it hard to change that?


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 26, 2014)

The jurisprudence report is an interesting read. It recognizes the position is contrary to the tenets of Freemasonry, but also queries whether we Latter-day Saints can be good Masons. 
It did pass.  It was some 24 years before the first acknowledged Latter-day Saint would serve as Grand Master (2008).


----------



## Rick Carver (Aug 26, 2014)

Hopefully, the Mormons understanding of their rituals and meaning are better explained to them than many of ours are. Much of the Mormon Church clearly is borrowed from Masonry.


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 26, 2014)

Rick Carver said:


> ...Much of the Mormon Church clearly is borrowed from Masonry.



Ummm, no.  There are clearly outward similarities between the LDS Temple ceremonies and the US Masonic ritual.  That ceremony is only a small portion of LDS theology (including that whole Book of Mormon thang).  Even in that ceremony, the meaning is different, as it is a Creation drama, and the Masonic ceremony is a Hiramic legend.


----------



## BryanMaloney (Aug 27, 2014)

Glen Cook said:


> Ummm, no.  There are clearly outward similarities between the LDS Temple ceremonies and the US Masonic ritual.  That ceremony is only a small portion of LDS theology (including that whole Book of Mormon thang).  Even in that ceremony, the meaning is different, as it is a Creation drama, and the Masonic ceremony is a Hiramic legend.



Ever notice how those who claim that Mormon ceremonies are cribbed from Masonic ritual likely lacks direct experience with one, the other, or both?


----------



## Warrior1256 (Aug 27, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> Ever notice how those who claim that Mormon ceremonies are cribbed from Masonic ritual likely lacks direct experience with one, the other, or both?


Yeah, being a new MM I had heard and read that the Mormons had borrowed liberally from Masonry for their rituals but I had never had discussions with those more about this than me.


----------



## MarkR (Aug 28, 2014)

I once chatted with a Mormon at work about this subject.  We both tiptoed around a lot of subjects so as not to reveal anything that we weren't supposed to, but at least in his day (he was an older gentleman, no longer in the LDS Church) it seems there was a lot of "similarities."  After all, both Brigham Young and Joseph Smith were Masons.


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 28, 2014)

Joseph's participation in the fraternity was rather limited, as shown in History of the Church and his journals. A timeline helps demonstrate this: while the Kirtland Temple was dedicated on March 27, 1836, he was not made a Master Mason until March 16, 1842.  He was martyred in 1844.  

Further, as the LDS Temple ceremony has evolved,there are even fewer similarities.


----------



## cemab4y (Nov 6, 2014)

You can view the endowment ceremony on YouTube. You will notice the similarities, especially the prayer circle.


----------

