# Why the difference time to be raised in Latin countries???



## Akiles (Sep 2, 2015)

Something that actually shock me is the difference between the times that it supposed to be required to be raised to FC (in Latin countries, the rules usually establish a minimum period of 6 months....normally is required at least 18 months....and in USA for example, you only need three weeks) and after that, to be raised to MM (again, in Latin countries rules says at least 6 months.... But usually is required 12 months...while in USA, maybe 6 weeks....), in Latin countries and in English spoken countries....

Do you know why that difference???


----------



## Levelhead (Sep 3, 2015)

I agree with longer wait periods.


Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Sep 3, 2015)

Levelhead said:


> I agree with longer wait periods.


While I do not disagree, I wonder at the purpose.  In my Lodge a candidate learns everything that the Brothers know to teach him in 30 days.  To set a longer waiting period just for appearances would be mean.  Also, you must be a MM to attend Lodge in my jurisdiction.  It took three months to put together enough Masons to put on my third degree.  This means that after receiving my EA and FC degrees I had no Masonic contact for three months while a degree team was put together.  It was not an ideal situation.


----------



## Akiles (Sep 3, 2015)

But what is the reason to the different periods??? Why if I am raised in a Latin Countries it could take me 3 years from EA to MM and if I'm raised in a English Spoken Countries only could take me 3 months???


Saludos.


----------



## Ripcord22A (Sep 3, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> While I do not disagree, I wonder at the purpose.  In my Lodge a candidate learns everything that the Brothers know to teach him in 30 days.  To set a longer waiting period just for appearances would be mean.  Also, you must be a MM to attend Lodge in my jurisdiction.  It took three months to put together enough Masons to put on my third degree.  This means that after receiving my EA and FC degrees I had no Masonic contact for three months while a degree team was put together.  It was not an ideal situation.


So lodges arent allowed to be opened on the ea or fc in ur jurisdiction?  How do u turn in proficiency?


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Sep 3, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> So lodges arent allowed to be opened on the ea or fc in ur jurisdiction?  How do u turn in proficiency?


You wait with the tyler.  They open in the MM degree, change to the required degree, you are brought in and tested, you leave, they go back to the MM degree and vote.


----------



## LAMason (Sep 3, 2015)

Akiles said:


> But what is the reason to the different periods??? Why if I am raised in a Latin Countries it could take me 3 years from EA to MM and if I'm raised in a English Spoken Countries only could take me 3 months???



Because that is what your Grand Lodge says.  There are difference between jurisdictions in the U S as well.  In Louisiana there is no minimum time between degrees.  I took my EA, then 2 weeks later the FC, and 2 weeks after the the MM, 1 month total.  Some jurisdictions have one day classes where a candidate can take the Craft Degrees, in one day.  Each Grand Lodge is Sovereign and decides the requirements.

Personally, I do not think it makes a difference, if someone gets all 3 degrees in one day and wants to put forth the effort to study and learn further they will, if not they will not, the same is true if you make them wait 3 years.


----------



## LAMason (Sep 3, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> So lodges arent allowed to be opened on the ea or fc in ur jurisdiction? How do u turn in proficiency?





pointwithinacircle2 said:


> You wait with the tyler. They open in the MM degree, change to the required degree, you are brought in and tested, you leave, they go back to the MM degree and vote.



In Louisiana business can only be conducted in the MM Degree, but if it is a called meeting to confer an EA or FC it can be opened in the EA or FC, the Degree conferred, and then be closed in the EA or FC.


----------



## dfreybur (Sep 3, 2015)

LAMason said:


> In Louisiana business can only be conducted in the MM Degree...



For a while I tracked how many US jurisdictions had returned to the original world wide standard of business in the EA or in the lowest degree of the brothers attending.  It was well over half the states by the time all of my jurisdictions were back to the worldwide standard and I stopped tracking.

If you haven't been tracking grand lodge proceedings in the last decade it's possible the rules have changed and you didn't notice.  More of a general statement than specific as members of this board tend to be well up to date.  But the obsolete stuff I hear at dinners before meetings tells me a ton of brothers have no idea what has changed in the last decade.


----------



## HumbleTXMason (Sep 3, 2015)

*@Akiles *

I do not know the answer, but I do not see the reason why it has to take so long to go from EA to MM. If I remember correctly, in Texas you _must_ turn in your work within one year of receiving the degree (maybe my Texas brethren can correct me if I'm wrong), but that doesn't mean you have to wait a year to turn it in.

In my case, I don't have the dates in front of me, but I went from EA to MM in like 4-5 months and was appointed Junior Steward at election time. So, I was an officer of my lodge and been a mason for less than one year. I mentioned this to a brother from Peru, who seem to be very upset about that... he had to wait 3 years to become an MM and a few more years to become an officer. I understood his displeasure, but felt no less of a mason as I had learned the work and passed my examinations and was very active at lodge (that's the reason I was asked to become an officer). 

So, not sure how things work in Panama, but I would recommend you go to lodge and participate as often as you can. You get from masonry what you put into it.


----------



## LAMason (Sep 4, 2015)

dfreybur said:


> If you haven't been tracking grand lodge proceedings in the last decade it's possible the rules have changed and you didn't notice. More of a general statement than specific as members of this board tend to be well up to date. But the obsolete stuff I hear at dinners before meetings tells me a ton of brothers have no idea what has changed in the last decade.



You may be privy to information about the Grand Lodge of Louisiana that I do not have but this is the information according to the Louisiana Handbook of Masonic Law as revised through the most recent Grand Lodge Session.

“A Lodge must be opened on the Master Mason Degree to transact business and must give due and timely notice to its members before taking action upon investments, increasing its debts, disposing of property, making any appropriation or transacting business of any unusual nature; provided that a Lodge may be opened on the Entered Apprentice or Fellow Craft Degree at a special meeting called for the purpose of conferring the Entered Apprentice or Fellow Craft Degree, or for conducting a Lodge trial in accordance with Article VI, Section 9 of the General Regulations. Louisiana Handbook of Masonic Law REVISED TO JANUARY 31ST & FEBRUARY l ST, 2015 Digest of Edicts Page 89

Perhaps you should take your own advice and track your Grand Lodge Proceedings.



dfreybur said:


> A year or two before California recognized PHA one of the GLs in Mexico asked permission to charter a Spanish speaking lodge in the state of California near the border. The location has a Spanish speaking majority and the only California lodge authorized to work in Spanish is nowhere near there. They asked permission according to ancient tradition. Generosity prevailed and permission was granted.



According to the website of LOGIA PANAMERICANA NO. 513 Free and Accepted Masons of the State of California  which was chartered in 2005, they are the "first Masonic Lodge in the South of California authorized to work totally in the Spanish language" and since you said it was "near the border" it would obviously be "in the South of California".  They were not chartered by a Mexican Grand Lodge and they were not chartered until 2005.
http://www.calodges.org/no513/English/main page.htm



dfreybur said:


> Now there are 3 jurisdictions that operate at specific locations in the state all with permission of GLofCA.



You are correct that there are now 3 jurisdictions that operate in California, but none of them are Mexican Grand Lodges:

*§409.030. RECOGNITION OF PRINCE HALL GRAND LODGE OF CALIFORNIA.*

Any other provision of this Code to the contrary notwithstanding, this Grand Lodge recognizes
the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge Free and Accepted Masons States of California
and Hawaii, Incorporated as having concurrent jurisdiction with this Grand Lodge within the
State of California.

*§409.035. RECOGNITION OF THE GRAND LODGE OF IRAN (IN EXILE).*

Any other provision of this Code to the contrary notwithstanding, this Grand Lodge recognizes
the Grand Lodge of Iran (In Exile), Ancient, Free and Accepted Masons, as having concurrent
jurisdiction with this Grand Lodge within the State of California.
California Masonic Code Page 64 and 65

I don’t know if you are just misinformed or if you fabricated this tale to support the point you were making.


----------



## LAMason (Sep 4, 2015)

Duplicate post, content removed.  The sever was acting crazy.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Sep 4, 2015)

I once had the privilege of meeting the Grand Master of Iran in Exile.  It was at Grand Lodge many years ago.


----------



## LAMason (Sep 4, 2015)

Duplicate post, content removed.


----------



## LAMason (Sep 4, 2015)

Duplicate post, content removed.


----------



## LAMason (Sep 4, 2015)

Duplicate post, content removed.


----------



## montkun (Oct 1, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> While I do not disagree, I wonder at the purpose.  In my Lodge a candidate learns everything that the Brothers know to teach him in 30 days.  To set a longer waiting period just for appearances would be mean.  Also, you must be a MM to attend Lodge in my jurisdiction.  It took three months to put together enough Masons to put on my third degree.  This means that after receiving my EA and FC degrees I had no Masonic contact for three months while a degree team was put together.  It was not an ideal situation.


My experience was similar to yours, I was initiated to EA and performed my proficiency the following month. Passed to FC in month three, showed proficiency the following month. Was present at three more proficiencies over the following two months, then the lodge went dark for most of August before I was raised to MM. So I ended up reading through most of the third degree nearly a month before my raising because I didn't want to get weak on the information that I previously learned.


----------



## memphisrite (Nov 2, 2015)

In Dominican Republic we take 3 months minimum to go from EA to FC (usually 6+ months) and 5 months from FC to MM (usually  12+ months). Most of the times is not about just waiting, its because besides instruction, in order to pass to next degree, you must do a research job and a presentation about a subject of your degree, that you must present to the members of the lodge. Then you will be called to another meeting for a test on all subjects of your degree.

Afterwards, the lodge takes around a month to prepare the degree and there you go.

On the subject of the meetings, most of them are hold in the first degree for administrative porpouses( EA cannot speak nor vote, FC may speak but not vote). This allows EA and FC to learn how to manage a lodge when their turn arrives.


----------



## SimonM (Apr 4, 2016)

And to give a perspective from Sweden and the Swedish Rite I can tell you that we have recently lowered the time from 1 year as EA and FC respectively to 6 months for each degree if the brother is sufficiently active. Here almost every lodge meet at least once per month, and the big lodges meet every week so every EA and FC can go to lodge and see his own degree several times before he is passed on to the next. I personally believe it was better when you had to wait one year instead of just rushing through at 6 months. For me a few weeks or just a few days is an unbelievable fast progression.

The reason we take time for each degree is that the lessons and intricate symbolism have to be integrated and understood before you go on to the next. At least in the Swedish Rite each degree builds upon the ones before, so if you just speed through the degrees there is a great risk of not understanding the whole picture once you are at the top. By having a minimum time in each degree (and the minimum time gets longer and longer for each degree) the brother will have time to reflect on what he have been taught and also see the ritual several times and study the details before he progresses. Once he is a MM he can directly become an officer, but on our system there is no requirement for that.

Also, the Grand Lodges working with the SweR require that all business are conducted at EA (for the St Johns lodges at least, the system is a bit more complicated than that  )

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't noticed I posted in an old thread. I hope it's alright


----------



## Levelhead (Apr 4, 2016)

Anyone can "learn the work" but to "understand" the work takes months sometimes years.


Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom


----------



## Bloke (Apr 4, 2016)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> ... In my Lodge a candidate learns everything that the Brothers know to teach him in 30 days.



I've been a Freemason for 13 years and have still not learned all I need from the First Degree nor have my brothers taught me all I need to know.

If you value Freemasonry, I dont think you would support a revolving door. We also have not less than 12 week to FC and 52 to MM - but don't have the pressure of wanting to make MMs to let them participate in lodge because we open in the First Degree. The last MM I raised has been entered about two years before... we also do not have maximum amounts of times between degrees which means we have have a EA or FC who pays his dues sit on that degree for years or even decades...


----------



## Akiles (Apr 4, 2016)

SimonM said:


> And to give a perspective from Sweden and the Swedish Rite I can tell you that we have recently lowered the time from 1 year as EA and FC respectively to 6 months for each degree if the brother is sufficiently active. Here almost every lodge meet at least once per month, and the big lodges meet every week so every EA and FC can go to lodge and see his own degree several times before he is passed on to the next. I personally believe it was better when you had to wait one year instead of just rushing through at 6 months. For me a few weeks or just a few days is an unbelievable fast progression.
> 
> The reason we take time for each degree is that the lessons and intricate symbolism have to be integrated and understood before you go on to the next. At least in the Swedish Rite each degree builds upon the ones before, so if you just speed through the degrees there is a great risk of not understanding the whole picture once you are at the top. By having a minimum time in each degree (and the minimum time gets longer and longer for each degree) the brother will have time to reflect on what he have been taught and also see the ritual several times and study the details before he progresses. Once he is a MM he can directly become an officer, but on our system there is no requirement for that.
> 
> ...




It is ok!!!!.

Now I'm a MM, but I agree with you, it is necessary some time to go up.


----------



## Classical (Apr 5, 2016)

From my favorite novel: 
“You have been given questions to which you cannot be given answers. You will have to live them out - perhaps a little at a time.'
And how long is that going to take?'
I don't know. As long as you live, perhaps.'
That could be a long time.'
I will tell you a further mystery,' he said. 'It may take longer.” 
― Wendell Berry, Jayber Crow


----------



## hanzosbm (Apr 6, 2016)

Unfortunately, there is a bit of a self perpetuating cycle at play here.  Brothers who never bothered to really understand the work in the first place, place no value on it, and therefore encourage the next generation to rush through it under the impression that there is nothing worth slowing down for.  In CA, the only proficiency required is the O&O and the grip & word.  THAT'S IT!  Some lodges might require more, but I could learn that proficiency in a single day if I really applied myself.  Yet, here I am, 7 years later, still barely scratching the surface of the EA degree.  I acknowledge that not all men really care for a deeper understanding, but we are robbing the men who do of the opportunity and then forgiving ourselves under the guise of 'they can go back and learn it on their own later if they want'. 
And we wonder why we can't retain members...


----------



## Bloke (Apr 6, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> In CA, the only proficiency required is the O&O



Help me out brother; "O&O" ?


----------



## hanzosbm (Apr 6, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Help me out brother; "O&O" ?


Sorry.  Oath & Obligation.


----------



## Bloke (Apr 6, 2016)

Thanks !


----------



## hiram357 (May 4, 2016)

I think requiring Brothers to wait just for the sake of waiting is probably not the right answer. But, waiting, along with an intensive education program and fellowship can have great benefits. In my German Lodge, it takes about a year between each degree. During that time, the Brothers complete an education program and are required to give presentations on Masonic and other topics to the Lodge. Once they become Fellowcrafts, they are expected to make visits (at least a certain number, of which I am not sure) , where/when they can, to other Lodges. In my opinion, this creates a greater investment in the Craft, and should lead to greater activity once the Brother is raised.


----------



## Ripcord22A (May 4, 2016)

hiram357 said:


> During that time, the Brothers complete an education program and are required to give presentations on Masonic and other topics to the Lodge. Once they become Fellowcrafts, they are expected to make visits (at least a certain number, of which I am not sure) , where/when they can, to other Lodges. In my opinion, this creates a greater investment in the Craft, and should lead to greater activity once the Brother is raised.


 
Do you think or is there evidance of this burning out EAs and FCs?  As for the visiting what if a FC is a working man or military man and doesnt have the time to go to other lodges?  Its hard enough for me to make it to all of my lodges meeting let alone other lodges....

I dont think that these requirements are a bad thing at all, I would have loved to have been made to research things.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (May 4, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I would have loved to have been made to research things.


Very well, I command you to research things!   LOL.   Actually, your statement brings up an excellent point that is eminently worthy of discussion.  What is it about research that infuses it with value?  Is it that the investigator gains knowledge?  Is it the skill and confidence gained by preparing and presenting presentations to the Lodge?  Is it the fellowship and friendship that one develops as a result of shared effort?  Is it the example set by the Lodge members that they find meaning and value in their Masonic pursuits?  Is there some other possibility?


----------



## Ripcord22A (May 4, 2016)

What i meant was that, I was kinda lost after my EA and before my FC and the same untill after my rasing and turning in my MM prof.  It wasnt till after that that I found this site and started to gain outside perspective and looking more in to certain subjects.  If my lodge and required me to make a presentation I would have loved that.  I have since done a couple presentations in Open lodge.  I am working on memorizing ON YONDER BOOK so i can present it at a raising we have coming up later this year.

to answer your questions I would say that it is all of those and more.


----------



## SimonM (May 5, 2016)

In our lodge you are required to make three short presentations for each degree. 

The first one is just a week or two after you got the new degree to tell about the first impression. Since you dont know anything there is no requirement that you have to hade done any reasearch, just you impressions and what you at the time felt most significant for you, 3-5 min. 

The second presentation should be after about half the time in the degree, which for us is after about 6 months as a EA, FC or MM. Then you should make a presentation of one detail of the ritual of your current degree. Whereas the first should focus on emotional side, this should be an intellectual excercise where you delve deep into the symbolism. 

The third presentation at the end of your time in the current degree, so usually 12 months after you recieved it. Then you should be able to do a presentation about the whole degree. Your idea then and there what the degree is really about, and give a psychological, ethical and a religious perspective on the symbolism. 

When you have done all three you are allowed to get the next degree. This is repeated though the craft degrees so you give in total 9 presentations. In my experience this gives a very solid foundation for the new brother to start up his work as a mason.


----------



## memphisrite (Apr 14, 2020)

Levelhead said:


> Anyone can "learn the work" but to "understand" the work takes months sometimes years.
> 
> 
> Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom



 Most mason's never get to understand even the first degree.


----------



## YHWH (Apr 15, 2020)

in Italy it is customary to understand and have the Degrees internalized through a diligent Ritual working, physical work (preparation of the Temple), the study of the Lectures, the attendance of the Brethren, the related cultural initiatives, and this takes time.


----------

