# Freemasonry needs to ditch 1950s attitudes



## Bloke

_*Today’s Universities Scheme conference at Freemasons’ Hall in London saw the end of my eight year tenure as Chairman of the Scheme, and provided an opportunity to reflect on the Craft and its future. In my valedictory address, I set out some thoughts about Freemasonry and the ongoing need for change, to better reflect modern day society. In particular, I focused on the need to move away from the ‘1950s attitudes’ about relationships, gender, and sexuality, that exist in some lodges and to tackle the hidden bullying that sometimes occurs in masonic units. *
Read the rest here_
_https://edwardlord.org/2017/11/04/my-final-thoughts-as-chair-of-universities-scheme-freemasonry-needs-to-ditch-1950s-attitudes/_


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## LK600

It was an enjoyable read even though I do not agree with everything put forth.


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## Warrior1256

LK600 said:


> It was an enjoyable read even though I do not agree with everything put forth.


I feel the same. One of the main reasons that I joined Masonry was that it is a fraternity. The day that regular Masonry recognizes female Masonry, not to even mention admitting female members itself, will be the day I demit and leave never to return.


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## David612

Personally I think the push to remove the fraternity status from freemasonry comes from a place of ignorance in regard to why freemasonry has trouble attracting and retaining new members.
I think there would be a few women very keen to be involved obviously however they would face the same truths about it as any new member does.


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## Bloke

I think it was a very interesting article. It was actually brought to my attention via our GL electronic communications.  I too want to see Freemasonry remain a Fraternity, however, I also acknowledge that Female Freemasonry is valid. I think it is a lot like a Church , just because I belong to a certain one, does not make all the others invalid - much less spend a lot of time putting them down which seems the default position for a lot of regular Freemasons.

I think my and following generations have a lot less respect for status and authority positions. I think understanding this and that the Sargent Major kind of ritualist damage lodges. We should encourage and support, not keep bashing bros for errors of a word or sentence. I think that part of the past needs to be dumped.

Me, I find meeting homophobia in lodge really hard to deal with. I think Freemasonry should be more tolerant than that and should not have its head in the sand, some love citing Oscar Wilde as an example of Masonic Diversity, but feel uncomfortable about gay men in Freemasonry (although, I must admit, I am not keen on introducing couples into a lodge - because that has its own dynamic, but I am not sure you can have one without being willing to have the other). I'm in lodges with gay brethren, but must admit to my knowledge never been in lodge with a gay couple....

I think Freemasonry as a predominately male space, and tyled lodges as a solely male domain has its strong merits, just as I think female birthing circles and gyms have theirs - but that also I would love to see more options for local Female Freemasonry, we only have mixed Lodges and no solely female lodges (and I am talking outside regular OES and Amaranth).

If Freemasonry is intellectual, surely we should be open to discussing these things...  good to see my GL spark conversations around them.


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## David612

Bloke said:


> I think it was a very interesting article. It was actually brought to my attention via our GL electronic communications.  I too want to see Freemasonry remain a Fraternity, however, I also acknowledge that Female Freemasonry is valid. I think it is a lot like a Church , just because I belong to a certain one, does not make all the others invalid - much less spend a lot of time putting them down which seems the default position for a lot of regular Freemasons.
> 
> I think my and following generations have a lot less respect for status and authority positions. I think understanding this and that the Sargent Major kind of ritualist damage lodges. We should encourage and support, not keep bashing bros for errors of a word or sentence. I think that part of the past needs to be dumped.
> 
> Me, I find meeting homophobia in lodge really hard to deal with. I think Freemasonry should be more tolerant than that and should not have its head in the sand, some love citing Oscar Wilde as an example of Masonic Diversity, but feel uncomfortable about gay men in Freemasonry (although, I must admit, I am not keen on introducing couples into a lodge - because that has its own dynamic, but I am not sure you can have one without being willing to have the other). I'm in lodges with gay brethren, but must admit to my knowledge never been in lodge with a gay couple....
> 
> I think Freemasonry as a predominately male space, and tyled lodges as a solely male domain has its strong merits, just as I think female birthing circles and gyms have theirs - but that also I would love to see more options for local Female Freemasonry, we only have mixed Lodges and no solely female lodges (and I am talking outside regular OES and Amaranth).
> 
> If Freemasonry is intellectual, surely we should be open to discussing these things...  good to see my GL spark conversations around them.


I’m totally with you in regards to homophobia and discrimination generally in lodges.


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## goomba

You can watch an episode of  the Masonic Roundtable about the Oddfellows.  The brother (he's a Master Mason and Oddfellow) speaks about how the Oddfellows opened their lodges to allow women and how this did not save it's lodges.  Other than that aspect I believe the article was spot on.

I'm a happily married man of 14 years.  My wife has zero interest, read ZERO, of participating in anything associated with the lodge.  Not that she dislikes it that is just her personality.  At one of my lodges for installation only the incoming Master's wife was present.  A few months later we had a ladies night and around four ladies were present.  He remarked "I just thought more wives would come."  My reply was "Bubba* think back to the installation.  How many wives came to that?  Just yours."

For some lodges and members you just get us.  Having these events for others tells us we are not enough.

*names have been changed to protect the innocent


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## Warrior1256

goomba said:


> The brother (he's a Master Mason and Oddfellow) speaks about how the Oddfellows opened their lodges to allow women and how this did not save it's lodges.


Agreed.


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## Warrior1256

Bloke said:


> If Freemasonry is intellectual, surely we should be open to discussing these things..


Most certainly, that's why I chimed in with my two cents worth.


Bloke said:


> good to see my GL spark conversations around them.


These are the kinds of debates that I enjoy.


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## jrnteach

My Lodge has lots of activities for our wives, sons and daughters. I’m thankful that our brethren have been growing and we’ve had multiple first degrees in the past few months. 


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## Warrior1256

Bloke said:


> I also acknowledge that Female Freemasonry is valid.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, since female Masonry is irregular and / or clandestine I don't bother with thinking about whether it is valid or not.


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## JJones

I left a comment but it's waiting for moderation so it may never appear at all. Here's what I wrote:



> I’m a Millenial Freemason and I’ve been in the fraternity for over a decade. I agree with some of the ideas in this post, namely that bullying has no place within a lodge or our organization as a whole.
> 
> The rest don’t really sound like important issues to me. I live in a rural part of the US and we don’t have many “Ladies nights” here. If we did and I was single then I probably wouldn’t attend but there would still be plenty of other opportunities I could be involved in.
> 
> I also understood that I was joining a fraternity when I became a member. If a man feels strongly about women becoming freemasons there are other organizations he could join instead of our fraternity where he could get the experience that he’s looking for.


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## Warrior1256

Totally agree Brother JJones.


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## Overworked724

Speaking as a candidate only - I petitioned to be in a fraternity of good men. There are some organizations which promote the fellowship of men.  This is for good reason...not to be too blunt but sometimes men need to feel brotherhood.  The opposite is also true. 

If women are allowed in, then I would also take exception to this new allowance in membership. 

Not that the event would be the end of the world...but it would change my motivation to join the brotherhood....simply because it would no longer be a brotherhood in its core.  

This is only my humble opinion. 


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## Brother JC

Warrior1256 said:


> ...since female Masonry is irregular and / or clandestine...


It is no more so than male Masonry is. It is unrecognized, and this is a very important distinction.


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## Warrior1256

Brother JC said:


> It is no more so than male Masonry is.


Have to disagree Brother. In my jurisdiction it is irregular and clandestine.


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## Ripcord22A

Brother JC said:


> It is no more so than male Masonry is. It is unrecognized, and this is a very important distinction.



JC I gotta disagree too.  Unrecognized is PHA and those 7 States.  Irregular and clandestine is not adhearing to our landmarks,  Glen I know not all states recognize the landmarks, however every MM OBLIG I’ve heard (5 jurisdictions) all say something about not allowing women. Or being there when a woman is made ect ect.  So to me, even if they have all the other markings of a regular Freemasonic
Organization,  they are not.  Also almost all of the groups that allow women that I am aware of are also atheistic.....almost all not all.


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## Glen Cook

Statement issued by UGLE – 10th March 1999


There exist in England and Wales at least two Grand Lodges solely for women. Except that these bodies admit women, they are, so far as can be ascertained, otherwise regular in their practice. There is also one which admits both men and women to membership. They are not recognised by this Grand Lodge and intervisitation may not take place. There are, however, discussions from time to time with the women’s Grand Lodges on matters of mutual concern. Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men(even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). Further information about these bodies may be obtained by writing to the Grand Secretary.


The Board is also aware that there exist other bodies not directly imitative of pure antient Masonry, but which by implication introduce Freemasonry, such as the Order of the Eastern Star. Membership of such bodies, attendance at their meetings, or participation in their ceremonies is incompatible with membership of this Grand Lodge.


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## Glen Cook

Ripcord22A said:


> JC I gotta disagree too.  Unrecognized is PHA and those 7 States.  Irregular and clandestine is not adhearing to our landmarks,  Glen I know not all states recognize the landmarks, however every MM OBLIG I’ve heard (5 jurisdictions) all say something about not allowing women. Or being there when a woman is made ect ect.  So to me, even if they have all the other markings of a regular Freemasonic
> Organization,  they are not.  Also almost all of the groups that allow women that I am aware of are also atheistic.....almost all not all.


Which landmarks would those be? Mackey?  Pound?  Whatever list a particular GL makes up?  

As to belief in Deity, I would not confuse feminine Freemasonry and coed Freemasonry


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## David612

Male, female, trans, non binary what ever it’s not really the point, the issue of declining membership isn’t because there are too few good men in the world, declining membership is our own fault and undoing the foundations of the organisation isn’t the answer.


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## Bloke

I think to consider admitting women to address a failing membership is very faulted - one of the great things about is that if offers a rare healthy male space in the modern world and that's extremely valuable. Some confuse that with misogyny, but we know much better and how important women are to Freemasonry. Last night at the Shrine, the secretary's wife was working just as hard as he was to organise food and raffles and general admin matters.



Warrior1256 said:


> .. since female Masonry is irregular and / or clandestine I don't bother with thinking about whether it is valid or not.



Understand. And a great point. I guess I just feel its disrespectful to keep putting female freemasonry down because it does not comply with what our idea of "Freemasonry" is. Not saying you are doing that Brother Warrior, just that I hear it too often. Many once said that about our Prince Hall Brothers but perhaps more simularly, it's like saying your Christian Church is worthless because it is not my Church. I think organisations like the Honourable Order of Women Freemasons deserve our respect, even if we would object to sitting in a tyler lodge with them  (as they would us).



Glen Cook said:


> Which landmarks would those be? Mackey?  Pound?  Whatever list a particular GL makes up?



I wholeheartedly  agree, but is there any traditional "regular" list which does not mention Freemasonry as a Fraternity which admits men only ? Is there any GL which decided to admit women and lost or was unable to obtain recognition from UGLE is which is often seen as the Gold Standard for recognition ?



Glen Cook said:


> ..As to belief in Deity, I would not confuse feminine Freemasonry and coed Freemasonry



An very important point.

Female Freemasonry is clearly irregular, but that does not make it an invalid. Its a strong and proud tradition.

Let's also remember the blog I posted is the thoughts of one Brother and not an official position.

Just as the original writer and Bro Jones says, bullying is bad. Bad for men, bad for lodges and just bad !

None thing's for sure,


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## Warrior1256

Bloke said:


> Not saying you are doing that Brother Warrior, just that I hear it too often.


I totally understand. We simply view this matter differently. We can disagree without being disagreeable, lol.


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## Bloke

Warrior1256 said:


> I totally understand. We simply view this matter differently. We can disagree without being disagreeable, lol.


Indeed my Friend and Brother 

We learn nothing if we're just in an echo chamber hearing back what we already believe.


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## Warrior1256

Bloke said:


> We learn nothing if we're just in an echo chamber hearing back what we already believe.


Exactly!


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## LK600

Personally, I see no need to admit women to a Fraternal organization.  If I wanted that, I have dozen's upon dozen's of other co-ed organizations to go to.  I do not mind (not that it matters if I did) if other's who are NOT our Freemasonry make up their own, as long as they do not portray themselves as us.  There seems to be a small but persistent effort by a small number of people to push this agenda for whatever reason.  I will never agree to it and that's all she wrote on that subject. 

 What's that old saying...  Remember, you are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.


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## Ripcord22A

I don't know what that is. ....

Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## JJones

JamestheJust said:


> >I see no need to admit women to a Fraternal organization
> 
> What then is the function of the FPoF?



I don't  see how the FPOF are relevant?


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## Ripcord22A

Ripcord22A said:


> I don't know what that is. ....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app



Disregard I figured it out and I’m with JJones......don’t see their relevance here


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## Warrior1256

LK600 said:


> There seems to be a small but persistent effort by a small number of people to push this agenda for whatever reason. I will never agree to it and that's all she wrote on that subject.


Spot on! We have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about because we want to remain a men only organization!


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## CLewey44

JamestheJust said:


> >I see no need to admit women to a Fraternal organization
> 
> What then is the function of the FPoF?


You tell us....


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## Ripcord22A

No I can’t.....please tell me.  You always do this James....you come in and comment with some veiled comment and ask us the meaning but never give your thoughts
  You always answer with more veil..... so please finally answer with out the Veil of James


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## CLewey44

JamestheJust said:


> >You tell us....
> 
> There you have an important remanent of the ancient mysteries.  Its inner function is quite different from that of the Triple Grip even though they look very similar.
> 
> Here is one of the earliest depictions - the founders of China with S&C, Sun, Moon and stars and 10 planets!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can deduce the nature of the FPoF from that.



I feel you, I do. But this is likely less about FPoF than it is likely more about the Kaballah and Tree of Life. I see basically no f2f... k2k; maybe.... cst2cst not really at all....mt2e or ck2ck not at all. As for the 10 planets and two individuals, to me this represents more duality/fem or masc/good or evil, geburah/chesed, severity/mercy etc, 10 sephiroths, I also count (questionably, I counted them no less than a dozen times and got something different nearly everytime!) 72 'planets' and this is likely in reference to Jacob's Ladder among other things.

As for females in Masonry, are you saying we should allow them for duality purposes or we should NOT allow them to join because the cst2cst part might be a bit awkward?

EDIT My apologies, hd2bk I don' see either but more sharing of shoulders due to being conjoined...


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## JJones

JamestheJust said:


> You can deduce the nature of the FPoF from that.



*facepalm*

You're doing that thing again, James.



Ripcord22A said:


> You always answer with more veil..... so please finally answer with out the Veil of James



It's more like a rabbit hole.

Are you suggesting that we should allow women into the fraternity because of the duality of nature?


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## CLewey44

JamestheJust said:


> >You always answer with more veil.
> 
> There is a reason that the remaining genuine secrets are veiled.  What might that be?



........love ya James


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## Warrior1256

Ripcord22A said:


> No I can’t.....please tell me. You always do this James....you come in and comment with some veiled comment and ask us the meaning but never give your thoughts
> You always answer with more veil..... so please finally answer with out the Veil of James





JJones said:


> You're doing that thing again, James.


AGREED!!!!!


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## Ripcord22A

JamestheJust said:


> >You always answer with more veil.
> 
> There is a reason that the remaining genuine secrets are veiled.  What might that be?


You are bordering on troll status James. ....remember resam. ....yeah..like him 

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## CLewey44

What does 'Even Clint Lewey compares an artist's impression done perhaps 10 000 years after the event with his local ritual where the genuine secrets have not been seen for 300 years." mean? I'm trying to clarify what you are saying. Some 10, 000 year old ancient Asian art has little or nothing directly to do with BL Masonry.  Does it all connect together in some way shape or form? Perhaps, but it's not that obvious and you'd really have to dig to link it accurately. I am familiar with Astrotheology and how things link together. Believe me, I understand what you mean but this site may not be the best forum to talk down to my Brothers on.  I appreciate your insight sometimes but this may not be the best place for that.


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## Ripcord22A

JamestheJust said:


> When I give data points they are completely ignored.  Even Clint Lewey compares an artist's impression done perhaps 10 000 years after the event with his local ritual where the genuine secrets have not been seen for 300 years.
> 
> Current ritual has been modified by >10 generations of brethren without the genuine secrets.  How good is that?
> 
> Given the parlous state of Masonic knowledge, recovery of the genuine secrets (from the ancient mysteries) must start outside of Masonry with wide reading, meditation and pursuit of the hidden mysteries of nature and science.
> 
> John 6:60



There are NO “genuine” secrets.  The word secret means “not known or seen or not meant to be known or seen by others.”  So if there’s a secret that is outside the fraternity you can’t know it unless it is told to you.  Same as our “secrets”. Which aren’t really secret at all and never have been.  Freemasonry is an organization that someone made up 300ish yrs ago and used stories from many cultures and mashed em together to tell a story.

Spoiler alert: HAB wasn’t the chief architect.  
Moses didn’t part the Red Sea and Mohamed didn’t speak directly to God.


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## CLewey44

JamestheJust said:


> >I'm trying to clarify what you are saying.
> 
> Neither source is accurate but both serve as a starting point for inquiry into some of the genuine secrets.
> 
> >this may not be the best place for that.
> 
> Quite so.  Do you have a better suggestion?



Google


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## Warrior1256

CLewey44 said:


> I understand what you mean but this site may not be the best forum to talk down to my Brothers on. I appreciate your insight sometimes but this may not be the best place for that.


Agreed!


CLewey44 said:


> Google


Great suggestion.


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## pointwithinacircle2

JamestheJust said:


> There is a reason that the remaining genuine secrets are veiled.  What might that be?


It might be that the genuine secrets are true but not real.  Now, that sentence may not make much sense, unless the actual meaning of the words 'real' and 'true' are veiled.  Perhaps what is real is what can be seen around us and what is true is what we can know internally.  Or it could all be bullmanure.  Unless we can learn to separate our internal and external worlds into their component parts, and then recombine them according to our will we are unlikely to ever know.  I have no idea if this is the correct answer but it sure sounds all mystical-ly, don't it.


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## pointwithinacircle2

JamestheJust said:


> >unless the actual meaning of the words 'real' and 'true' are veiled.
> 
> This is an issue that I struggled with until I had some inner experiences.


I too had some inner experiences.  The problem with "inner experiences" is that the individual must interpret them by himself and according to whatever level of understanding they possess.  So we are left with the three part problem of accurate assessment, adequate understanding, and correct interpretation.   


JamestheJust said:


> It was too easy for me to assume which words in the ritual were veiled and which were literal.  It was necessary for me to test my interpretations with direct experiences - for example by using what is veiled by the "working tools" in what is veiled by "a moral sense" to establish what is true to what.


Honestly, it is more likely that I understand what is veiled by the symbol "working tools" than by the symbol "moral sense".  I find that a well grasped tool often does poor work if one does not know for what purpose one is using it.


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## Ripcord22A

JamestheJust said:


> >.  Astrology might also be included.?



The only thing astrology does in the real world is give suburban white girls “super cute” tattoos.....

Don’t tell my wife i said that


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## Warrior1256

Ripcord22A said:


> The only thing astrology does in the real world is give suburban white girls “super cute” tattoos.....
> 
> Don’t tell my wife i said that


Lol....agreed!


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## Overworked724

Darn it...and here I always thought those girly astrology tattoos hid a deeper meaning.  So much for convincing my wife to get one...sigh.


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## LK600

I was sitting here reading this thread and it struck me how different my views are on things than others, including here. 

jamesthejust... I much of the time love your slant on things but sometimes you appear to say something interesting and then stop in mid sentence.  I'm not sure why. 

imo... the argument of whether Freemasonry can trace it's roots back hundreds (thousands?) of years or if it was all made up is distracting.  The knowledge, or maybe "that which was lost" supersedes Freemasonry and absolutely can be traced back thousands of years.    Freemasonry is (one of) the vehicle to... not the end. 

And lastly, since I believe the Bible is literal (though our interpretation may be skewed), I do believe that Moses parted the red sea, that Astrology is more than pretty symbols (not judging), and that hidden knowledge and mysticism are real (though most are charlatans).


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