# Lucifer and Satan



## Blake Bowden (Jan 16, 2010)

Neither the attributes nor personification of Lucifer or Satan play any role in the beliefs or rituals of Freemasonry. The topic is only of interest insofar as anti-masonic attacks have accused Freemasonry of worshiping Lucifer. The confusion stems from such 19th century masonic authors as Albert Pike and Albert G. Mackey who have used the term "luciferian" in its classical or literary sense to refer to a search for knowledge. John Robinson notes "The emphasis here should be on intent. When Albert Pike and other Masonic scholars spoke over a century ago about the "Luciferian path," or the "energies of Lucifer," they were referring to the morning star, the light bearer, the search for light; the very antithesis of dark, satanic evil."

"Lucifer" is the Latin term originally used by the Romans to refer to the planet Venus when that planet was west of the sun and hence rose before the sun in the morning, thereby being the morning star.

The same planet was called Hesperus, Cesperugo, Vesper, Noctifer, or Nocturnus, when it appeared in the heavens after sunset. Although 19th and 20th century occultists would equate other goddesses such as Astarte, Ashtoreth, Lilith, Isis, Cemeramis, Mari, and Ishtar with Venus, links between the cultures and attributes represented are not historically clear. Lucifer as a personification is called a son of Astraeus and Aurora or Eos, of Cephalus and Aurora, or of Atlas. He is called the father of Ceyx, Daedalion, and of the Hesperides. Lucifer is also a surname of several goddesses of light, such as Artemis, Aurora, and Hecate. 1.

The word appears to have entered the religious lexicon when the Hebrew expression in Isaiah 14:12, "HeYLeL BeN-ShaCHaR." (meaning "bright son of the morning/dawn," "bright [and] morning star," "glowing morning star," or "shining one, son of the dawn.")2. was translated to "Phosphorus" (the Greek word for Venus as the morning star) in the Septuagint, and then translated into "Lucifer" in the Vulgate (from the Greek Septuagint). Isaiah 14, taken as a whole, is a parable, or prophecy of denunciation against the Kings of Babylon, specifically Tiglath-pileser III 3 In verse 12, the prophet characterizes the arrogance of Tiglath-pileser III as if the king had thought himself fit to appear in the sky as the morning star, but has fallen to earth, being brought low by the vengeance of the Lord against those who would exalt themselves and persecute the Lordâ€™s people (i.e., the Israelites).

 Origenes Adamantius (185 CE - 254 CE), an important Christian scholar of the early Greek Church, and Augustine of Canterbury (d. May 26 604/605 CE), founder of the Christian Church in southern England, both interpreted the use of the term Lucifer as a reference to the Devil.

Author: Unknown
 The name Lucifer was applied to Satan by St. Jerome and later to the demon of sinful pride by Milton in Paradise Lost. Lucifer is the title and principal character of the epic poem by the Dutch playwright, Vondel (who uses Lucifer in lieu of Satan), and a principal character in the mystery play by Imre Madach, "The Tragedy of Man". Blake pictured Lucifer in his illustrations to Dante. George Meredithâ€™s sonnet Lucifer in Starlight addresses the "fiend" as Prince Lucifer. To Spenser in An Hymne of Heavenly Love, Lucifer is "the brightest angel, even the Child of Light." In Ovidâ€™s Metamorphosis, Lucifer is the morning star and father of Ceyx. He is described as riding a white horse (clarus equo, book XV.189) and his face is characterized by a bright gladness (see XI.270 ff. Lucifero genitore satus patriumque nitorem ore ferens Ceyx). Also see Books II.115 and 723, IV.629,665.

The word "satan" is from a Hebrew word, "sathane", meaning adversary or calumniator; in original Jewish usage (see the book of Job), the satan is the adversary, not of God, but of mankind; i.e., the angel charged by God with the task of proving that mankind is an unworthy creation. Note though, that Balaamâ€™s satan (Numbers 22:23-33) protects him from harm.

Later, as Judaism absorbed such ideas as Zoroastrian dualism and concepts about angels during the Exile, and then as Christianity echoed various concepts from earlier religions, the concept of an evil power ruling an underground domain of punishment for the wicked became fixed in Christian doctrine. In such a doctrine, elements of the Graeco-Roman god Pluto/ Vulcan/ Hephaestus, the Underworld, and various aspects of Nordic/Teutonic mythology may be traced.

 The Latin name of Phosphorus, Venus as the morning star, is the light bringer which heralds the dawn. The name is sometimes applied to the planet as the evening star as well, although Hesperus is properly its name then. By a curious chain of reference, the passage in Luke 10:18 was thought to refer to Isaiah 14:12, in which the star is used metaphorically for the monarch of Babylon. Thus Lucifer became the chief of the fallen angels, the name borned by Satan before his rebellion.

 "From a supposed reference to this passage in our Lordâ€™s words. 'I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven' (Lk 10:18), in connexion with Rev 9:1-11 (the language of 9:1 being in part probably derived from this passage), Lucifer came in the Middle Ages to be a common appellation of Satan. The star of Rev 9:1-11 is a fallen angel who has given to him the key of the abyss, from which he sets loose upon the earth horribly formed locusts with scorpions' tails, who have, however, power to hurt only such men as have not the seal of God on their foreheads. But this angel is not actually identified with Satan by the writer of the Apocalypse. The imagery in Is was no doubt suggested by a meteor, and possibly it was so in Rev also." 

While some authors referred to Lucifer as Satanâ€™s name before his expulsion from Heaven, others referred to Lucifer and Satan as two distinct entities. 10. Both as a literary convention and as Christian teachings or belief, historically there would appear to be little consensus. Regardless, it should be clear that an author may use the terms Lucifer or luciferian and not be referring to Satan.


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## drapetomaniac (Jan 16, 2010)

blake said:


> Later, as Judaism absorbed such ideas as Zoroastrian dualism and concepts about angels during the Exile, and then as Christianity echoed various concepts from earlier religions, the concept of an evil power ruling an underground domain of punishment for the wicked became fixed in Christian doctrine.


 
And while many cultures have been accused of devil worship, the idea of the devil was actually introduced by exposure to Christianity.

Having an adversary  to God is a foreign idea in most systems.


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## MasonicTexan (Dec 17, 2010)

You know I was watching "Decoded" on the History Channel, and the Statue of Liberty is also referred to as Lucifer.
Lucifer being the "bearer of light" aka Venus.
Thus I can understand and have always figured that when people associate Lucifer with Freemasonry, they are confused to the actual meaning of the name and not what it truly is.


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## dhouseholder (Dec 18, 2010)

There is a statue in the Old Hall of the House at the US Capitol, it is Liberty next to a snake. I noticed it when I was there a few months back. Lucifer/Light-Bearer/Serpent/Wisdom symbolism is something that is deeply ingrained in the American subconscious. 

http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/liberty_and_eagle.cfm


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## rhitland (Dec 20, 2010)

dhouseholder said:


> There is a statue in the Old Hall of the House at the US Capitol, it is Liberty next to a snake. I noticed it when I was there a few months back. Lucifer/Light-Bearer/Serpent/Wisdom symbolism is something that is deeply ingrained in the American subconscious.
> 
> http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/liberty_and_eagle.cfm



I like how they just brush over the broken column with the snake.  I wonder if the broken column alludes to anything?!


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## ExTenebrisLux (Oct 8, 2011)

I am personally a Luciferian. Great read OP!


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## BEDickey (Oct 25, 2011)

I can add something to this but not much, most of this has been pretty well covered. The name of the statue of liberty is "Diana Lucifera" or Diana the light bringer. As far as Satan even that word merely means opponent, such as when Jesus tells Peter, "get thee behind me Satan" what he is saying is " hey you, opponent, get behind me. I'm the man in charge here." As was said the meanings have been corrupted threw the years.


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## Benton (Oct 25, 2011)

I read this post a long time ago, but I wanted to comment regarding how much I appreciate it. It's helped dispel some fears from some of my conservative Christian loved ones who can't help but misquote Pike.


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Oct 26, 2011)

> Having an adversary to God is a foreign idea in most systems.



The devil in many ways has been devastating to our culture, not in that we are plagued by a little red dude.  But, in that, with him to blame we have an excuse not to take personal responsibility.

On another note, not sure the above is accurate Brother Rich.  I think that from Sumer, Cush, etc. we can make an argument an entity(ies) of Good and one (or more) of evil in a culture is common.


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## CTx Mason (Nov 27, 2011)

So much has been lost in translation over the millennia, who can say they have THE TRUTH? Good exists just as evil exists. Evil buy nature is destructive, good is constructive. Each of us have the capacity for both, but only mankind has the choice and ability to not be enslaved by his nature or passions and make a choice of action for good or evil. 
Regardless of what name we label something, it is defined by its actions, the fruit that it bears, and each individual ultimately bears the responsibility and rewards/consequences for them. 
Am I my brother's keeper? I believe that we are, especially as Masons.


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## jwhoff (Dec 15, 2011)

I guess we came up with the devil to flame our fears.  The opposite of light is darkness.  Human nature tends to slide back and forth.


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## Griffin (Jan 6, 2012)

Good work, Bro. Blake!  Wikipedia actually has a very good article on "Lucifer," including several citations showing how the term has been used for Christ both Biblically (2 Peter 1:19) and in Catholic chant.


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## BryanMaloney (Jan 21, 2012)

drapetomaniac said:


> Having an adversary  to God is a foreign idea in most systems.



On the contrary, opposition of the benevolent divine by powerful spiritual evil is found in many systems. Hindu religion(s) has a long tradition of opposing the evil Asuras against the benevolent Devas, and this can be dated long before Christianity. The ancient Iranian religion (pre-Christian and pre-Zoroaster) opposed the benevolent Asuras against the evil Devas. Mahayana Buddhism has demons which are no less real than the gods it recognizes. Admittedly, one can make a case that Mahayana is not "pure" buddhism, but it is one of the most popular forms. The Aesir were opposed by the Jotunn. The idea that the world was a loverly, happy place until nasty old Christianity leaped in to make everybody unhappy is another 19th century fantasy.

If anything, sober anthropological study of our many religious traditions reveals that a concept of some overwhelming spiritual evil being or beings acting in direct opposition to the benevolent Divine is remarkably common.


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## BryanMaloney (Jan 21, 2012)

jwhoff said:


> The opposite of light is darkness.



Perhaps, but Dionysius the Areopagite (forgive my spelling), in his Epistle to Dorotheum, made mention of "the Divine darkness" (gnophos). That is, while we say that God is light, we must also say that He is not light, for while he brings us out of ignorance, which we call darkness, He is also ultimately unseeable, unknowable, and inconceivable. Thus, while God is light, He is also the most impenetrable darkness.


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## jwhoff (Jan 22, 2012)

Strong responses brother.  Thoughtful.  I see you spent a little time in the studies of humanities.  

Kinda dark and *alone* out here in the materialistic world isn't it?

To bad you are to far from Houston for our 3rd Monday night of the month SCCR jam sessions. To far indeed.


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## BryanMaloney (Jan 27, 2012)

Thank you for the compliment. I am the product of a liberal arts education. I have a Bachelor of Arts in biology, which makes very many people confused. How can one have a Bachelor of ARTS in biology? Obviously, it must be an inferior education in the sciences!* I have great concern for our nation, which so readily embraces narrow technocratic training but denigrates the old Artes Liberales approach that sculpted the Founders. That being said, the most important thing I learned was how limited my knowledge was vs. how much there is to know. Thus, education is the highest attainment, but education is not mere erudition. Education that does not transform for the better is not education at all.

*My own wife and her daughters concluded the negative about my schooling, even though my alma mater--a small liberal arts college--ranked 35th in the production of people who went on to achieve their PhD's in the sciences in 2011 and her eldest daughter's alma mater--an extremely large and well-beloved state university known for extreme fanaticism among its maroon and white clad alumni--didn't even make it on to the top 50 list.


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## jwhoff (Jan 28, 2012)

I remember a graduate of Tractor Tech in the Carolinas, who told me she knew little about the Viet Nam war.  This was in the late 80s.  Her defense was that she was a small child during the war years.  Forget the fact that we were still discussing the fallout of those years during her college days. 

Were that the technocratic world should be armed with a few tenants of the humanities, we might not be so easily led astray.  Not to mention constantly distracted from conversation by text messaging daily. 

One more tip to the wise.  The Scottish Rite will feel like an old shoe when the time comes.  I choose to see you at Grand Lodge once you've started your trip to Light.


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## Tubal Cain (Jul 8, 2013)

Satan is tied to freemasonry as the idles of the brotherhood are the descendants of him. Hiram Abiff. Tubalcain. Noah. They all are of the bloodline of Cain. The son of Satan and eve. 


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## travelinman76 (Jul 8, 2013)

Great conversation. I had a guy approach me when he heralded I was going to become a mason and he could not help but get on the Internet and find a bunch of Pike quotes and print them off for me.  I did not care why he thought then and don't plan on trying to prove "I'm right" with this info but it makes me smile to think about him thinking I'm the crazy one. 


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## dfreybur (Jul 9, 2013)

BryanMaloney said:


> I am the product of a liberal arts education. I have a Bachelor of Arts in biology, which makes very many people confused. How can one have a Bachelor of ARTS in biology? Obviously, it must be an inferior education in the sciences!* I have great concern for our nation, which so readily embraces narrow technocratic training but denigrates the old Artes Liberales approach that sculpted the Founders. That being said, the most important thing I learned was how limited my knowledge was vs. how much there is to know. Thus, education is the highest attainment, but education is not mere erudition. Education that does not transform for the better is not education at all.



My degree is a Bachelors of Science in Liberal studies so we're opposites of some sort here.  I had switched back and forth between math and computer science majors and ended up finding a degree program that allowed 2 minors instead of 1 major.  So I have minors in both math and computer science instead of a major in either.  Very inefficient path to a degree by the way.  I ended up qualifying for a third minor in English if my degree had the option to list more than 2 minors.

Anyways, early in the career the science part was more valuable because entry level jobs tend to be technical.  The science studies gave me depth at a time when I needed that depth.

But as I've progressed in my career the liberal studies parts of my studies have become more valuable.  The studies in many topics gave me breadth at a time when I need depth.  When I was taking those GE courses I resisted putting time into them because I knew they would be ignored early in my career.  Decades later I'm now glad I was required to take them and glad I actually worked the material and learned from it instead of just jamming to pass the finals.


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## Illuminated (Jul 26, 2013)

What about the Cremation of Care? World elite participating in a mock ritual under a 40 ft Stone Owl? The owl is a Masonic symbol... There is Satanism in Freemasonry... He will give you, give you 666. There's no escaping it!


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## newkid18 (Jul 26, 2013)

I assume your talking about the bohemian grove its not satanic in my opinion its where the worlds top member of elite classes go to party really hard like college frat boys even quotes about say you might see some primie minister dick in one hand beer in the other pardon the luanguage

If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." â€”Benjamin Franklin, American writer, humorist, ambassador, inventor and Freemason


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## Bro Darren (Jul 27, 2013)

The funny thing about that picture is that it's been found to have NOTHING to do with this imaginary elite group. The picture was found to have come out of a B grade movie from the 90's (can't recall the one) but looking at the picture you can see no one in it. 

Oh and the owl is also featured in many things like Harry Potter for example. 

You might want to unplug from INFOWARS and take off your tin foil hat.


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 27, 2013)

Illuminated said:


> What about the Cremation of Care?



What about it? It's not a Masonic ritual, nor is the group who does it a Freemasonic body.


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## Illuminated (Jul 31, 2013)

D4rr3n said:


> The funny thing about that picture is that it's been found to have NOTHING to do with this imaginary elite group. The picture was found to have come out of a B grade movie from the 90's (can't recall the one) but looking at the picture you can see no one in it.
> 
> Oh and the owl is also featured in many things like Harry Potter for example.
> 
> You might want to unplug from INFOWARS and take off your tin foil hat.



So you are telling me that Alex jones didn't go into bohemian grove? He caught it on video... 


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## Bro Darren (Jul 31, 2013)

Alex make a very nice income from his "truth" exposing fear campaigns. 

You believe what you want, but if Alex was true to himself he would have discovered the truth and not made up his own version. 

He milks those that get too involved in conspiracy theories and most of the stuff on his many websites is great for a laugh.


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## BroBook (Jul 1, 2014)

According to my search lucifer (Light bearer) became satan (adversary)!!!


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 1, 2014)

Illuminated said:


> So you are telling me that Alex jones didn't go into bohemian grove? He caught it on video...
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Or he just staged it.


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## BroBook (Jul 1, 2014)

AmigoKZ said:


> IMO, Lucifer is The Boss of one of the Extraterrestrial Civilization.
> And Satan a.k.a Devil, is -- "the thing" existin' only on Earth and influences only human beings.
> After satan dissapears, we'll get Eternity...


Yes that extraterrestrial civilization I call demons, he ( lucifer) " was " perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him, he decided he would put his throne in the north above God's and yes he and his demons do influence people he is also called the prince of the air, in closing I suggest that we as masons ought to go and actually read through our GEAT LIGHT it can't rule or guide if it is not read!!! Oh and yes he is leaving and we that make it to the end will receive the blessing " life forever more !WWEA


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jul 1, 2014)

Eternal life.  There is an interesting moral lesson to be learned from the study of the word Eternal.  Infinite means having no beginning and no end.  The life of God is infinite.  That which is eternal has a beginning, but no ending.  As a man I had a beginning.  The only thing which is required for my life to be eternal is that it has no end.   This seems to indicate that if I have an eternal life - it has already begun.  It is an interesting thought to ponder, is it not?


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## jjjjjggggg (Jul 2, 2014)

My two cents...

As a former Christian I can see why some folks would be up in arms about Pike's use of Lucifer. In my particular flavor of Christianity we were taught that Satan and Lucifer were one in the same. 

Now, I don't fault a Christian brother for believing that both are literal beings in the universe, but my own take is to interpret both as metaphorical arch-types of certain characteristics and recognizing the interplay to all the players involved, and using the lessons to obtain more light.


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## jwhoff (Jul 20, 2014)

Always the case Brother dfreyber.  The liberal arts are quite necessary but too often overlooked.  Liberal Arts and Organic Chemistry here.  Sort of prepares us all to be true Lucifer-_ians_ in the end.  Does it not?


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 22, 2014)

Let us return to the ONLY uses of "lucifer" that actually appear in any Bible. They all come from a single Latin translation, Jerome's Vulgate. Think about that. The original languages of the Bible DID NOT EVEN USE "lucifer" in any shape, way, or form. Therefore, anyone who insists that "lucifer" is the actual name of anyone must be claiming that the Jerome Vulgate is the only true version of the Bible. That makes me chuckle.

What were the three places in which St. Jerome used "lucifer"?

Isaiah 14:12, Job 11:17, & 2 Peter 1:19.

Look those up in your favorite translation. Wonder why the translators decided to only use "lucifer" once. Read each in context. Wonder, again, why they chose to use "lucifer" at all. Realize this whole "lucifer" thing is something that could only fool the ignorant.


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## BroBook (Jul 22, 2014)

CTx Mason said:


> So much has been lost in translation over the millennia, who can say they have THE TRUTH? Good exists just as evil exists. Evil buy nature is destructive, good is constructive. Each of us have the capacity for both, but only mankind has the choice and ability to not be enslaved by his nature or passions and make a choice of action for good or evil.
> Regardless of what name we label something, it is defined by its actions, the fruit that it bears, and each individual ultimately bears the responsibility and rewards/consequences for them.
> Am I my brother's keeper? I believe that we are, especially as Masons.


Yes my brother much has been lost over the years, that is the ideal of our  association we are looking for that which was lost always remember " if we (all mankind) can meet, act and depart there is nothing we can't do"


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## bezobrazan (Jul 30, 2014)

Alex Jones is a con man and a shill. There's tons of proof that he is cointelpro. He's extremely predictable, easily excitable, thinks every act is a false flag and believes self-transforming machine elves are out to destroy the world.  He's the last person I would ever base any body of knowledge on.

In other words, I'm dating a French Model - bonjour.


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## Rick Carver (Jul 31, 2014)

Albert Pike wrote hundreds of books and papers, tens of thousands paragraphs and millions of words. Idiots like Alex Jones try and use one single paragraph he wrote as "proof positive" that all Masons are unknowingly having their spiritual wi-fi hijacked by Satan. The paragraph in question makes reference to Lucifer and Light. It is worded oddly, but if you check closely it is a reference to that in the Bible, before Lucifer was cast from Heaven, he was called the "Angel of Light."

Wooooooooooo—knowledge is really scandalous stuff!


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## Rick Carver (Jul 31, 2014)

They didn’t tell me when I became an Entered Apprentice.

They didn’t tell me when I became a Fellow Craft.

They didn’t tell me when I became a Master Mason.

They didn’t tell me when I became a Royal Arch Mason.

They didn’t tell me at Council, Chapter or Commandary.

They didn’t tell me when I took the Scottish Rite Degrees.

They didn’t tell me when I joined KYCH.

They didn’t tell me when I was awarded the 33°.

They didn’t tell me when I became Worshipful Master of my Lodge.

They didn’t tell me when I served as District Deputy Grand Master.

They didn’t tell me when I became Grand Master.

When the hell do I get in on all the secret plans for Masons to take over the world?

_The Old Tyler


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 31, 2014)

Rick Carver said:


> Albert Pike wrote hundreds of books and papers, tens of thousands paragraphs and millions of words. Idiots like Alex Jones try and use one single paragraph he wrote as "proof positive" that all Masons are unknowingly having their spiritual wi-fi hijacked by Satan. The paragraph in question makes reference to Lucifer and Light. It is worded oddly, but if you check closely it is a reference to that in the Bible, before Lucifer was cast from Heaven, he was called the "Angel of Light."



Where? I want to see it laid out and not subject to "interpretation". Otherwise, even this claim is just opinion about Scripture, not a statement of Scripture.


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## Rick Carver (Jul 31, 2014)

All scripture is interpretation and translation. I am the first one to freely admit that what I posted is the same interpretation from translation.

Were you asking me for the Bible quote of the Pike quote?

* Isaiah 14:12-14King James Version (KJV)*
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, *O Lucifer, son of the morning*! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

The Pike quote they demonize is:

"Lucifer, the _*Light-bearer*_!  Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness!  Lucifer, the *Son of the Morning*!  Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable, blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish souls?  Doubt it not!"  

[Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, p. 321, 19th Degree of Grand Pontiff]​
I am not saying it is an EXACT match. I am not the one claiming Masons somehow worship Lucifer. You would have to ask Alex Jones about that connection.


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## BroBook (Jul 31, 2014)

rhitland said:


> I like how they just brush over the broken column with the snake.  I wonder if the broken column alludes to anything?!


Life c


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 31, 2014)

Rick Carver said:


> All scripture is interpretation and translation. I am the first one to freely admit that what I posted is the same interpretation from translation.
> 
> Were you asking me for the Bible quote of the Pike quote?
> 
> ...



That is not a reference to Satan. It is well known that any connection between that and Satan is nothing but a folk superstition with absolutely no evidence behind it. I notice how you intentionally refused to quote the full context. If you do not blasphemously play paper dolls with Scripture, it is quite plain that it is about the King of Babylon during Isaiah's own lifetime and not a supernatural being at all.

As for the Pike quote, it's irrelevant to me, since I consider Pike to be but one voice among many who are all Masonic scholars.


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## Rick Carver (Aug 1, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> That is not a reference to Satan. It is well known that any connection between that and Satan is nothing but a folk superstition with absolutely no evidence behind it. I notice how you intentionally refused to quote the full context. If you do not blasphemously play paper dolls with Scripture, it is quite plain that it is about the King of Babylon during Isaiah's own lifetime and not a supernatural being at all.
> 
> As for the Pike quote, it's irrelevant to me, since I consider Pike to be but one voice among many who are all Masonic scholars.



This is great! Not only am I chastised for not quoting the entire Book of Isaiah, I also get accused of blasphemy and playing with paper dolls. HOW BROTHERLY of you.  There are ways for Bothers to discuss and to disagree and yet maintain Masonic decorum. This is not it.  Most people come to Masonic forums to learn and not to witness the work of Ruffians.

The statement that Pike is irrelevant to you is irrelevant to me and to this discussion. The world is not only about you. You asked for the quotes and I gave them to you.


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## jjjjjggggg (Aug 1, 2014)

Rick Carver said:


> This is great! Not only am I chastised for not quoting the entire Book of Isaiah, I also get accused of blasphemy and playing with paper dolls. HOW BROTHERLY of you.  There are ways for Bothers to discuss and to disagree and yet maintain Masonic decorum. This is not it.  Most people come to Masonic forums to learn and not to witness the work of Ruffians.
> 
> The statement that Pike is irrelevant to you is irrelevant to me and to this discussion. The world is not only about you. You asked for the quotes and I gave them to you.



Rick, welcome to the club. I think his level is broke.


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## BryanMaloney (Aug 1, 2014)

Remember, if you dare to disagree with the One True Dogma, you are no longer "Brotherly". You must agree that "Lucifer" MUST refer to Satan, particularly in Isaiah, or you are not and cannot be "Brotherly".


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## JJones (Aug 1, 2014)

Differences in opinions are to be expected.  Peace and harmony is also expected.

I can't think of any nicer way to put it, don't allow this thread to degrade any further.


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## Blake Bowden (Aug 1, 2014)

Thread locked.


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