# American (or even Texan) Freemasonry is Christian?



## ctp2nd (Nov 25, 2009)

Howdy All,

This may have been discussed previously, and if so, I ask the Mods to please remove the thread if they so desire. (not that my permission is worth the digital typography its given in)

Being the devout ritualist that I feel that I am, it is impossible to ignore the overtly Judeo-Christian overtones present in, at the very least, the Texas Masonic Ritual (GLoT).  Some have offered the opinion that, due to our observance of the Holy Bible (KJV?) as our primary VSL, our ritual has been necessarily painted with the Christian brush.  Others have suggested that the prominence of Christianity at the birth of our nation as the impetus behind it while others maintain that the Hiramic Legend rooted in the Old Testament requires it.

What do You think?

I appreciate your thoughtful response.

S&F,

-ctp-


----------



## TCShelton (Nov 25, 2009)

Yeah, we've kicked this one around a while back, but it is a good one, and worth bringing back up.

I haven't found anything in our ritual that is Christian.  As it is all based on Old Testament figures, one could say it was based on Judaism, if anything.  The only arguement presented in favor of it being Christian is the "Lion of the Tribe of Judah," which didn't refer only to Christ, and can be found as a reference to others as far back as Genesis.  As the ritual takes place in Old Testament times, logic would suggest that Christ was not a factor.  

The fact that the KJV Bible is on the altar is due to the fact that the men in the lodge are Christian, not the ritual.


----------



## JTM (Nov 25, 2009)

I would also pose another question: Does being Christian enable me to "appreciate" the ritual more than if I were a Muslim?

I'll have to think on that one for a while.


----------



## Hippie19950 (Nov 25, 2009)

Hmmm, I am of Christian Faith, so it is Christian as far as I am concerned. Now, if there is another who wants to come in, I won't stop him, unless he is Atheist.


----------



## Blake Bowden (Nov 26, 2009)

JTM said:


> I would also pose another question: Does being Christian enable me to "appreciate" the ritual more than if I were a Muslim?
> 
> I'll have to think on that one for a while.



As a Christian myself, I felt comfortable during the ceremony because I was familiar with the numerous Biblical references. I'm not sure how I would respond if I were of another faith.


----------



## dhouseholder (Nov 26, 2009)

blake said:


> As a Christian myself, I felt comfortable during the ceremony because I was familiar with the numerous Biblical references. I'm not sure how I would respond if I were of another faith.


Generally as words of infinite divine wisdom being spoken to you by brothers.


----------



## rhitland (Nov 26, 2009)

The thought that this is purely for christians is from the lack of education on the ancient landmarks of the fraternity.
Masonry is to conform to the major faith of the country of which it is in. From GL to Gl the ritual can differ greatly but will all be based on a tale from the Old Testament which most major religions are derived from. 
Masonry is to conform to your believes and strengthen them no matter what. It is not here for someone to beat another over the head with b/c they feel there version of Masonry is right. That is for religions and is why we do not allow religion in lodge.


----------



## Payne (Nov 26, 2009)

JTM said:


> I would also pose another question: Does being Christian enable me to "appreciate" the ritual more than if I were a Muslim?
> 
> I'll have to think on that one for a while.




I don't think that being Christian would enable you or anyone to "appreciate" the ritual more than if you were a Muslim or any other faith that believes in a supreme being.


I believe Freemasonry is non-denominational and just plays off the historical facts in some religious text .


----------



## TCShelton (Nov 26, 2009)

Payne said:


> I don't think that being Christian would enable you or anyone to "appreciate" the ritual more than if you were a Muslim or any other faith that believes in a supreme being.
> 
> 
> I believe Freemasonry is non-denominational and just plays off the historical facts in some religious text .



+1.


----------



## Blake Bowden (Nov 27, 2009)

Payne said:


> I believe Freemasonry is non-denominational



Unfortunately there are Brothers out there who disagree. Prop 9 for example...


----------



## Gerald.Harris (Nov 27, 2009)

blake said:


> Unfortunately there are Brothers out there who disagree. Prop 9 for example...



 I am anxious to see just how far #9 gets at Grand Lodge.


----------



## VirginiaPM (Nov 27, 2009)

There are many quotes and rituals that use biblical references in many fraternities, philosophies and discussions. This doesn't make them Christian. This fraternity evolved in a time and place where a man could be imprisoned, deported or killed because of his faith. As the masonic philosophy and ritual evolved and radical ideas such a mans right to follow his beliefs and faith became wide spread, there was a legitimate concern that the ritual would be exposed and the fraternity attacked. Which it was and still is. Some of these ideas were incorporated into ritual wrapped in biblical quotes and passages. This made it more acceptable to the uninitiated.

As a brother who is not a Christian, the ritual means just as much to me as it does to you as a Christian.

Proper prayers in a lodge do not refer to "Jesus", "Christ" or any other prophet or religious sect. I believe that the Supreme Architect hears all of our prayers and matters of religion are not a concern.

Concerning Prop. 9, that's what church is for, not a lodge.


----------



## Payne (Nov 27, 2009)

> Concerning Prop. 9, that's what church is for, not a lodge.



I could not agree more!


----------



## Blake Bowden (Nov 27, 2009)

VirginiaPM said:


> Concerning Prop. 9, that's what church is for, not a lodge.



And that's why it should go down in burning flames :33:


----------



## LRG (Nov 27, 2009)

As a Brother who is a CHRISTian, our ritual means that much more.
Out of respect, if one does not believe in Jesus Christ, please try not to mention his name as a group of others.
As i would do my best not to talk of another mans beliefs.
To me as a Christian, Jesus Christ is the same as the G. A. o. t. U..
I as well respect another mans belief and truly declare that his book of faith should be his obligation.


----------



## owls84 (Nov 28, 2009)

You know the past few months I have been pretty worried about "Christianity" becoming a part of Masonry (in regards to resolution 9) thus taking the spirituality out of Masonry, but I am now confident that justice will prevail. I feel there are too many Masons that have worked to learn the early teachings, even that read you sit in ante room prepared for your initiation (read it again in the monitor), and even if it does passes. It will be met with opposition and "real" Masonry will still be practiced.


----------



## Sam Whitley (Nov 30, 2009)

I would opine that Masonry BEGAN as a Christian fraternity (evidenced by fact that the prayer given just after reception of a new candidate ended with the words "in Jesus' name we pray." ...[*3 Distinct Knocks* (about 1750), I believe] It may or may not have been so in all lodges of the time, but seems to have been so in the lodge described in this very early "explanation" of Masonry. It was clearly (to me) a conscious act that made Masonry non-sectarian at some point.  That said, there *are* clear indications of Judeo-Christian influences left today.  And Texas ritual certainly contains its share of these.  I will say that by and large, in lodges I have visited over the years, most do an admirable job of offering non-sectarian prayers in all cases.  Obviously they do so in the lodge room.

There are some hang-ons in ritual not fully removed from Judeo-Christian tenets.  For example, in the Lightfoot manual, one of the Masonic funeral services includes the Lord's Prayer.

This is IMO just one of the fascinating things about Masonry.  I have read several places that at least some of the Georgia lodges have  regularly introduced Christianity in their lodges' workings (against their own GL law).


----------



## rhitland (Dec 1, 2009)

Sam Whitley said:


> I would opine that Masonry BEGAN as a Christian fraternity (evidenced by fact that the prayer given just after reception of a new candidate ended with the words "in Jesus' name we pray." ...[*3 Distinct Knocks* (about 1750), I believe] It may or may not have been so in all lodges of the time, but seems to have been so in the lodge described in this very early "explanation" of Masonry.




Hmmm I have never read anything claiming Masonry was derived from Christianity. I have heard prayers end in Jesus Christ but that was an individual Brother giving the prayer, I have never even heard of a Masonic prayer ending that way though. I would be very interested in this read.
As far as the 3 knocks and what they represent, this knowledge is way older than Jesus that goes back to the great Egyptian philosopher Hermes Trismegistus and probably further but that is about as far as history goes.


----------



## Gerald.Harris (Dec 1, 2009)

quote:There are some hang-ons in ritual not fully removed from Judeo-Christian tenets. For example, in the Lightfoot manual, one of the Masonic funeral services includes the Lord's Prayer.

 I am not convinced that the Lords Prayer is referring to Jesus Christ.... God is also referred to as Lord by many people. Besides, we havent used the Lightfoots Manual since 1981. 
 Brother Sam I respect your opinion, but I have to diagree with you on these two points.


----------



## Nate Riley (Dec 1, 2009)

Sam Whitley said:


> I would opine that Masonry BEGAN as a Christian fraternity ...



I don't personally believe that Masonry began a Christian fraternity, but I believe that it started (at least the origins of our rituals) in a country (England, France, Scotland - you pick based on your opinions) where Christianity was the predominant/state religion.  So, in a time when a man's broad knowledge was limited compared to ours today, it is natural that elements Christianity would have been included in the ritual.  

Simply having some of the elements of Christianity does not make it Christian.  I am a big believer that Freemasonry is not religious, even though it has some religious references.  That's important because if the lodge becomes competition for my own religious activities and beliefs, then I have a problem.  One of the big claims of some the "Christian Antis" is that the lodge is a subsitute for the church or some Mason's believe that it is, therefore, members of that church should not be members of the lodge.  I, of course, find this to be inaccurate.



Gerald.Harris said:


> quote:There are some hang-ons in ritual not fully removed from Judeo-Christian tenets. For example, in the Lightfoot manual, one of the Masonic funeral services includes the Lord's Prayer.
> 
> I am not convinced that the Lords Prayer is referring to Jesus Christ.... God is also referred to as Lord by many people. Besides, we havent used the Lightfoots Manual since 1981.
> Brother Sam I respect your opinion, but I have to diagree with you on these two points.



The Lord's prayer is called so, because Jesus said it.


----------



## TCShelton (Dec 1, 2009)

Nate Riley said:


> Simply having some of the elements of Christianity does not make it Christian.



That I agree with, since practically every "Christian" element or concept is older than Chritianity itself and can be found in older, mostly defunct religions.


----------



## Sam Whitley (Dec 1, 2009)

Brothers, I did not perhaps expand on some things I said.  *Three Distinct Knocks* was an early "explanation" or exposee of Masonry written in 1760 (not 1750 as I originally posted).  A copy of this book is available on the Pietre-Stones Review of Freemasonry website  on the internet.  In the scanned version of that book (PDF form) on page 8 (of 40 pages... maybe just Chapter 1 about the EA Degree), are the following words near the end of the introductory prayer for the EA (we have significantly changed and much shortened this prayer) in the last paragraph of the prayer:


"... through our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth for ever and ever.  Amen.

Master:  After you have received this prayer, what was said to you?

Answer:  I was asked who I put my trust in. ..."


To me, that part of the prayer indicates that Christianity was an integral part of the EA Degree in 1760.  Maybe I misread or misinterpreted those words, but I don't believe so.  

The Lord's Prayer was offered in the New Testament by Jesus as the perfect example of "how to pray."  The Lord in this context is thus IMO  "God, the Father."  This, though Christians generally (universally?) believe in the Trinity which obviously includes Jesus.  I don't remember it showing up in the Old Testament anywhere.

I base my belief of the Christian ties to Masonry primarily on this early writing in *Three Distinct Knocks*.  This book could be a hoax, but I do not believe so.  It would explain a lot of things that otherwise defy understanding and logic.


----------



## TCShelton (Dec 1, 2009)

Sam Whitley said:


> Brothers, I did not perhaps expand on some things I said.  *Three Distinct Knocks* was an early "explanation" or exposee of Masonry written in 1760 (not 1750 as I originally posted).



Lol, I thought that was what you said.  Pay attention, Rhit.. !:7:


----------



## owls84 (Dec 1, 2009)

IMHO, I think the Masons make Christianity a part of Masonry. The work in TX Masonry has changed many times through out history. It is the same way you open the Bible in a way and it seems crazy how just where you opened it speaks to your situation you are currently in. I am willing to bet it speaks the same to Muslims, Jewish people, etc. 

As far as the 1760 comments, I thought "Modern" Masonry dates to 1717 and actually before that in some records, making this another spin on it.  As I see it, it could be just like if Resolution #9 passes if someone is raised after this, as they know it the Tradition through antiquity is it is a Christian based organization, but the fact is that Masons changed it to make it that way. The way I see it is the "word" of Masonry could be lost forever. We may never know when that first Lodge met or the book that was on that alter, if any. It does make my mind wonder.


----------



## rhitland (Dec 1, 2009)

It was early when I read that. I will check the book out most def. sounds very interesting. Thanks for the clarification Brother and sorry for the misinterp.


----------



## drapetomaniac (Dec 1, 2009)

The Regius Poem (year 1390) refers to "lord" but it seems more a reference to class and station in context:
MASONIC DOCUMENT - The Regius Poem ( Halliwell MS ) c.1390

It also makes a strong and specific point of drawing on Euclid and Euclid's time in Egypt.  I'm not sure Euclid was considered a  Christian..

Freemasonry might  "have Christian origins" but that's like saying the Mayflower was a Christian ship, or the British Parliament has Christian origins.  Hurricane comes from the name of a Taino god.  I'm sure there are religious ceremonies and celebrations around corn - so we could call it a pagan food.

But those are all de facto.  Other religions were utterly wiped out in Europe, so it was as default a religion as indigenous religions pre-conquest by various groups.

However,  there are organizations that were Christian in origin and intent and mission - and I guarantee you can tell those apart from freemasonry (which cites a pagan greek, and a pagan science ;-).


----------



## C_Cabra (Dec 1, 2009)

In the ritual that we practice today in Texas I see nothing remotely Christian.  The religious elements that are included in our ritual are common to both Christianity, Islam, and Judaism and come from the old testament.

If the question were "American (or even Texan) Freemasonry is Judaic?" I think you might have an arguement.

The only parts of Masonic ritual that mention religion aren't even "Christian" because they predate Christ and are only so associated because Christians study the old testament.

Remove the Bible containing the new testament from the Altar and replace it with the Quran and suddenly there is nothing even remotely Christian in the Lodge Room aside from individual members.

Texas Freemasonry seems "Christian" because of the membership not the ritual.


----------



## cemab4y (Dec 1, 2009)

USA Freemasonry is definetly NOT Christian. Men of many different faith backgrounds and traditions participate in our quiet retreat. I have attended lodge with Jewish men, and with Muslim men. In Washington DC, I once assisted a man in taking his Fellow Craft oath on the Holy Qu'Ran (The sacred text of Islam). I consider this one of the high points of my masonic experience. I wish more Muslims would join Freemasonry.

I attended lodges in Saudi Arabia, where the Holy Bible and the Holy Qu'Ran were side by side on the altar. 

Masonry accepts men who believe in God. The individual belief systems of the individual man are of no concern to Masonry. We are truly a non-denominational, non-sectarian, inter-faith organization. I am proud to participate in a fraternity that welcomes men from such a wide rainbow of faiths.

Here is a portion of a letter written by Brother George Washington, to the Jewish congregation at Truro Synagogue:

The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for giving to Mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens.


----------



## drapetomaniac (Dec 1, 2009)

I was reading The Builders last night.
THE BUILDERS by JOSEPH FORT NEWTON - A masonic book online

The chapter "Drama of Faith" had more relevance to other religions than I had ever expected.  That said, I'm also looking for other versions of the same story to see if they jibe.  If they do, its very directly not Christian.

As a life long Christian, I don't think the principles of working on oneself in the masonic context falls into how most of Christianity is taught (being ignorant of the eastern orthodox to some degree.)  Most of the focus is on faith, belief and obedience to God.  Good works and morality are also taught, but in the end I think the lessons are very different.  I think where working on oneself is taught, it is in the context of fulfilling that belief or obedience.

The reasons for following morality are even laid out to be different than Christianity.

But - if you have a chance, read the chapter on Drama of Faith above.


----------

