# Are Grand Officers paid ?



## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 22, 2016)

I've often wondered if GL officers are being paid. Since I have been a master mason, dues continue to go and so does Grand Lodge tax. What about in your jurisdiction, do you brothers know if they are being paid ?


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## JJones (Jan 22, 2016)

They aren't paid. It's strictly volunteer and it's my understanding that GL officers are responsible for paying for their own travel expenses, meals, and so forth.  Now, in clandy GLs...this is all very possible.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 22, 2016)

If these brothers aren't getting paid, then why does taxes and due continue to go up ? I've heard so many times we don't know what the future holds for freemasonry so we are going to have to raise taxes. They raise taxes so high that members struggle to pay it and new candidates can't afford it. It's no wonder brothers are becoming inactive and new inspiring men aren't petitioning.


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## coachn (Jan 22, 2016)

Yes.  In some Recognized Jurisdictions (not just Clandestine), some GL officers are paid.  Some have expense accounts too.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 22, 2016)

coachn said:


> Yes.  In some Recognized Jurisdictions (not just Clandestine), some GL officers are paid.  Some have expense accounts too.


How do you feel about that ?


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## coachn (Jan 22, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> How do you feel about that ?


If...
1) they are performing a service to the craft,
2) for the benefit of the organization,
3) and for a service that would receive the same amount that an individual who was not a member providing the very same service would receive...
why not?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 22, 2016)

coachn said:


> If...
> 1) they are performing a service to the craft,
> 2) for the benefit of the organization,
> 3) and for a service that would receive the same amount that an individual who was not a member providing the very same service would receive...
> why not?


Agreed. What about raising the taxes so high though ?


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## coachn (Jan 22, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Agreed. What about raising the taxes so high though ?


What about it? Are not expenses going up and membership going down?  What more would you expect?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 22, 2016)

Yes but in my opinion if you lowered expenses maybe the membership would go and in return bring in more revenue.


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## coachn (Jan 22, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Yes but in my opinion if you lowered expenses maybe the membership would go and in return bring in more revenue.


The membership would go where?  Lower what expenses?  Bring in more revenue from where?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 22, 2016)

coachn said:


> What about it? Are not expenses going up and membership going down?  What more would you expect?


Okay you said are not expenses going up ? Then you said, are not membership going down ? Okay if they lowered the taxes in some Grand lodges that they continue to raise them in,  would not more good men be able to afford to join ? I'm not going to say money is being misused, but I dont understand why it has to continue to go up. I've met good guys that would like to join and they claim it is too high. Brother coachn I would venture out to say I'm sure we have a higher GL tax and lodge dues than you probably do. I don't know.


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## coachn (Jan 22, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Okay you said are not expenses going up ? Then you said, are not membership going down ?



Yes, I did indeed write something to that effect.



Travelling Man91 said:


> Okay if they lowered the taxes in some Grand lodges that they continue to raise them in,  would not more good men be able to afford to join ?



Those taxes go to pay something that has been deemed necessary.  How do you propose to lower the expenses that these taxes go to pay?



Travelling Man91 said:


> I'm not going to say money is being misused, ...



Well, you don't have to say this directly, but you can imply it by saying that you're not going to claim it. ;-)



Travelling Man91 said:


> ...but I dont understand why it has to continue to go up.



It's called _inflation_.  If you want to understand, study the forces that create the escalation of prices and expenses. If you simply want to complain about it, without studying what causes it, please continue as you were.



Travelling Man91 said:


> I've met good guys that would like to join and they claim it is too high.



Yup.  Me too.  I also know some lodge dues are under $50 annually.  That tells me these good men may have other challenges that they need to overcome first.



Travelling Man91 said:


> Brother coachn I would venture out to say I'm sure we have a higher GL tax and lodge dues than you probably do. I don't know.



Yep.  The dues were $45 annually when I joined in 2001.  They're up to over $100 now.  Taxes are now over 2x what they were then.  Membership is less than half it was when I joined too.  The numbers don't lie.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 22, 2016)

coachn said:


> Yes, I did indeed write something to that effect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand inflation. Took a little bit of economics. I guess what I'm saying is, if brothers are rising taxes for their own personal gain, then that is wrong.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 22, 2016)

I would like to see which jurisdictions pay their GL officers and which don't. I'm not against paying them, but I don't agree with raising taxes so their pocket can get larger while the subordinate lodges struggle.


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## coachn (Jan 22, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I understand inflation. Took a little bit of economics. I guess what I'm saying is, if brothers are rising taxes for their own personal gain, then that is wrong.


Agreed, but FAIR compensation is in our obligations, is it not?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 22, 2016)

It is, key word "Fair" that is left up for interpretation. Can you enlighten me on something. Who decides the wages they are paid ?


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## coachn (Jan 22, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> It is, key word "Fair" that is left up for interpretation. Can you enlighten me on something. Who decides the wages they are paid ?


Would not that be the Grand Assembly when they vote on approving the budget?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 22, 2016)

That's why I asked you to enlighten me bro. Coachn because I didn't know. To be honest, I'm just now starting to focus on what's going on in Grand.


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## coachn (Jan 22, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> That's why I asked you to enlighten me bro. Coachn because I didn't know. To be honest, I'm just now starting to focus on what's going on in Grand.


Budgets are usually created and put before the General Assembly during Grand Lodge for approval and are voted upon by those empowered to do so by the Digest of Law followed by that Jurisdiction.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 22, 2016)

Okay. I hope to attend GL one day to get a better understanding on how they operate.


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## coachn (Jan 22, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Okay. I hope to attend GL one day to get a better understanding on how they operate.


Good!  It is eye opening for sure.


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## Pscyclepath (Jan 22, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I've often wondered if GL officers are being paid. Since I have been a master mason, dues continue to go and so does Grand Lodge tax. What about in your jurisdiction, do you brothers know if they are being paid ?



It depends on the jurisdiction.  The Grand Lodges do prepare and abide by an annual budget, which is presented and approved at the annual convocations.

Here in Arkansas, the GL has three paid employees, the Grand Secretary, and two assistants.  These fellows run the GL office on a day-to-day basis and take care of business in between annual meetings.  The Grand Line meets at least monthly, and the GM keeps some sort of at least semi-regular office hours, depending on his availability.   The three office workers receive a salary, and the GM has a limited travel budget to enable him to get out and about and be present in the subordinate lodges.  But for the most part, GL officer travel and work is unpaid.

The majority of the GL budget is taken in keeping the GL offices open.  There's utility bills, phone bills, printing and publication costs,  insurance, building upkeep, and all sorts of other ongoing fees.  None of these are getting any cheaper.  Have you ever taken part in developing and keeping a lodge budget for the year?  The same sort of thing goes on at GL, on a larger scale.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 22, 2016)

Pscyclepath said:


> It depends on the jurisdiction.  The Grand Lodges do prepare and abide by an annual budget, which is presented and approved at the annual convocations.
> 
> Here in Arkansas, the GL has three paid employees, the Grand Secretary, and two assistants.  These fellows run the GL office on a day-to-day basis and take care of business in between annual meetings.  The Grand Line meets at least monthly, and the GM keeps some sort of at least semi-regular office hours, depending on his availability.   The three office workers receive a salary, and the GM has a limited travel budget to enable him to get out and about and be present in the subordinate lodges.  But for the most part, GL officer travel and work is unpaid.
> 
> The majority of the GL budget is taken in keeping the GL offices open.  There's utility bills, phone bills, printing and publication costs,  insurance, building upkeep, and all sorts of other ongoing fees.  None of these are getting any cheaper.  Have you ever taken part in developing and keeping a lodge budget for the year?  The same sort of thing goes on at GL, on a larger scale.


Yes, I'm very familiar with the budget in a subordinate lodge. I have had to fill in for our treasurer before.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 22, 2016)

Pscyclepath said:


> It depends on the jurisdiction.  The Grand Lodges do prepare and abide by an annual budget, which is presented and approved at the annual convocations.
> 
> Here in Arkansas, the GL has three paid employees, the Grand Secretary, and two assistants.  These fellows run the GL office on a day-to-day basis and take care of business in between annual meetings.  The Grand Line meets at least monthly, and the GM keeps some sort of at least semi-regular office hours, depending on his availability.   The three office workers receive a salary, and the GM has a limited travel budget to enable him to get out and about and be present in the subordinate lodges.  But for the most part, GL officer travel and work is unpaid.
> 
> The majority of the GL budget is taken in keeping the GL offices open.  There's utility bills, phone bills, printing and publication costs,  insurance, building upkeep, and all sorts of other ongoing fees.  None of these are getting any cheaper.  Have you ever taken part in developing and keeping a lodge budget for the year?  The same sort of thing goes on at GL, on a larger scale.


I know someone has to run the GL office, but I've always wondered who all is getting paid. If more than just the few you named are being paid then I could surly see them raising the taxes....


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 22, 2016)

coachn said:


> If...
> 1) they are performing a service to the craft,
> 2) for the benefit of the organization,
> 3) and for a service that would receive the same amount that an individual who was not a member providing the very same service would receive...
> why not?


Totally agree. At the very least the expenses incurred while doing the business of the GL should be covered.


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## chrmc (Jan 22, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Okay you said are not expenses going up ? Then you said, are not membership going down ? Okay if they lowered the taxes in some Grand lodges that they continue to raise them in,  would not more good men be able to afford to join?



I believe this is a fallacy we often see. There is little evidence to support that if we lowered dues that we'd have more members. Both when you look at jurisdictions where they've tried it, but also in the general lodges that already have very low dues. They aren't booming with members. 

What you however do have ample evidence of is the fact that Masonry to a large extent has failed to keep up with inflation, both in general, but certainly if you compared how much it used to cost out of a man's total income. 
We also have ample evidence that presently many lodges and GL does not have enough income to support their business. Both because of small membership, but certainly because of endowments which were a great idea when returns were 10-20%, but not so good when they are 0-5%

We can start the whole debate (again) on why members aren't joining, but blaming it on dues have little supporting evidence.


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## mrpierce17 (Jan 22, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I've often wondered if GL officers are being paid. Since I have been a master mason, dues continue to go and so does Grand Lodge tax. What about in your jurisdiction, do you brothers know if they are being paid ?


In some jurisdictions GL officers such as the DDGM coming to observe degree work will be given an assessment by the local lodge to help towards his travel expenses not very much and chances are he will still have to come out of pocket


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 22, 2016)

chrmc said:


> We can start the whole debate (again) on why members aren't joining, but blaming it on dues have little supporting evidence.


From what I have seen I have to agree. Membership dues around here are very low and we still have problem attracting / retaining members.


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## dfreybur (Jan 22, 2016)

Grand lodge budgets contain a lot more expenses than paying people.  The educational and charitable programs are the majority of the expense.  You should read the annual proceedings of some grand lodges to see where the money goes.  I've got a bunch on paper and a whole directory full of PDF files of these books gathered over the years.

Both dues and GL per capita have long fallen behind inflation.

In Illinois the Assistant Grand Secretary draws a salary from the GL plus from the Grand YR Chapter plus another appendent body.  Taken together her gets less than half what he'd get working the same job at a typical company, yet he is full time at the GL office.  Same with the Grand Secretary.  The GM only gets mileage reimbursement at a rate that's lower than the actual cost.  Going through the grand line in Illinois typically wears out a car for the years of the early chairs, wears out another car the years in the GDGM and GSW chairs, wears out a car in the two years as GM, wears out a car in the first few years as PM.  It takes buying four cars to do all of the travel and that doesn't even include the gas, repairs, hotel stays and so on.  Guys who go through the grand line in Illinois are typically out of pocket in the range of $50K just for the two years as GM and at least that much for their other years in the grand line.  Travel reimbursements do not approach break even.

In California to even apply to join the grand line you used to have to deposit $50K earnest money to prove you could afford it.  And only candidates who had left that money in the account for multiple years ever got considered.  Grand line officers in California wear out as many cars as in Illinois even though in California the line moves one chair per year not two.  California is huge north to south.

Given the size of Texas, I can't imagine the cars of our grand line officers survive the travel requirements.  Cars only last 300,000 miles each and in Texas that's like 2 round trips west to east.  Like California only tilted over and instead of vertical mountains its wider in area.  ;^)

If GL officers actually did make a profit, I would object too.  But I've talked to brothers who were told that if they had to save up to afford the earnest deposit they could not afford to go into the grand line.


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## Bloke (Jan 22, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> In California to even apply to join the grand line you used to have to deposit $50K earnest money to prove you could afford it.  And only candidates who had left that money in the account for multiple years ever got considered.



Sorry, but can you confirm the above - that GL officers all need to deposit $50K ? Little in Freemasonry surprises me... but that did...


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## Bloke (Jan 22, 2016)

coachn said:


> Budgets are usually created and put before the General Assembly during Grand Lodge for approval and are voted upon by those empowered to do so by the Digest of Law followed by that Jurisdiction.



Not so here. We've delegated our budget to the Board of General Purposes (the working executive committee of GL).... reports of that committee and the Grand Tres are presented at Quarterly Communications and voted on for acceptance. Never seen one not accepted.


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## Bloke (Jan 22, 2016)

Our GL is regular and in amity with UGLE. 

Our Grand Sec is paid and there is a sizable office staff (perhaps around 10-15) for circa 10,000 members. Grand Lodge Capitation is $104 PA (AUD) per member and this gets split between all sorts of things. I'm in two Craft Lodges, one is about $300 and the other $330 PA with a dinning fee of $20 and $35 per meeting and we meet 11 time per year. Those lodge fees ( $300 & $330) do not include the $104 GL annual capitation fee, but you only pay it once per year in our jurisdiction - in the lowest numbered lodge you are a member of...

I don't have a problem with the Grand Sec and others getting paid - but like Coach said, we need to get value for it.

Our GM and other line officers are not paid. All visiting GL officers etc are not paid. All those guys are working as dedicated volunteers.

The only people who often get paid in our jurisdiction in respect to ceremonial work are the tyler (outer guard) and organist. The lodge sets if they will or will not get paid and how much. It is generally $30-$50 per meeting, but its hardly a great earner. They tyler sometimes get paid, but I dont think I've ever seen an organist not get paid.

The only other person likely to "profit" from ceremonial are visitors requested to do a charge; they will generally get fed for free. I traveled 1.25 hours to a lodge recently to deliver a charge they could not cover, then they charged me $20 for dinner. They've done this to me several times and it is starting to grate..... it seems petty to worry about $20 (esp as a Freemason interested in discharging me first degree obligations) but I'm not sure next time I am asked I will travel 1.25 hours then get pay $20 for a meal at the other end.. charging visitors is fair enough.. but charging visitors you have asked for help and who specially travel to your lodge to help seems a bit cheeky.

*Whinge over*


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## JJones (Jan 22, 2016)

Interesting, I assumed no GL officers were paid. GL secretary being paid doesn't surprise me though.

There are a few reasons taxes might go up however. Inflation is most obvious reason.  Also, some jurisdictions have very old and very large GL buildings they wish to keep, which means they require extensive renovations that nobody wants to pay for, like Texas.


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## coachn (Jan 23, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Not so here. We've delegated our budget to the Board of General Purposes (the working executive committee of GL).... reports of that committee and the Grand Tres are presented at Quarterly Communications and voted on for acceptance. Never seen one not accepted.


Interesting twists.  Thanks!  It's not done that way here, but who knows?...  It may go to that someday here too.


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## Companion Joe (Jan 23, 2016)

In Tennessee, the Grand Secretary is a full-time paid position. There are a few others who work in the office, and I'm pretty sure they are full-time employees of the Grand Lodge of Tennessee (although not necessarily Masons - support staff, custodial, etc.). The upper level Grand Officers get a little bit of expense money, but it doesn't scratch the surface of what they spend on a yearly basis. When work needs to be done to the Grand Lodge building, they add a "building assessment" on top of our per capita tax. They did several million dollars worth (5 maybe) a couple of years ago, and we'll be paying for that for some time. 

I am an appointed York Rite Grand Officer this year, and I didn't get a dime. I got some gifts from the GHP and ate for free at the nine district meetings we had across the state. All my lodging, gas, and food along the way came out of my pocket.


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## MBC (Jan 23, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Our GL is regular and in amity with UGLE.
> 
> Our Grand Sec is paid and there is a sizable office staff (perhaps around 10-15) for circa 10,000 members. Grand Lodge Capitation is $104 PA (AUD) per member and this gets split between all sorts of things. I'm in two Craft Lodges, one is about $300 and the other $330 PA with a dinning fee of $20 and $35 per meeting and we meet 11 time per year. Those lodge fees ( $300 & $330) do not include the $104 GL annual capitation fee, but you only pay it once per year in our jurisdiction - in the lowest numbered lodge you are a member of...
> 
> ...


Yes we have similar structure I think. The GSec and his team are paid.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 23, 2016)

Companion Joe said:


> All my lodging, gas, and food along the way came out of my pocket.


Wow, as I said before I'd think that at least expenses would be covered!


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## Companion Joe (Jan 23, 2016)

I have a lifelong friend whom I would never recommend to Masonry because he is a 100 percent capitalist, and charity isn't high on list of priorities. I was talking to him once about being a grand officer:
"Do you get paid to do that?"
"No, in the end it costs you money. The reward is it's an honor to be asked to serve."
"Screw that."


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 23, 2016)

Companion Joe said:


> I have a lifelong friend whom I would never recommend to Masonry because he is a 100 percent capitalist, and charity isn't high on list of priorities. I was talking to him once about being a grand officer:
> "Do you get paid to do that?"
> "No, in the end it costs you money. The reward is it's an honor to be asked to serve."
> "Screw that."


Yeah, I doubt that he would be happy in a lodge or Grand Lodge.


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## Ripcord22A (Jan 23, 2016)

Im pretty sure that in OR the GL officers that must travel get an expense account.  I know that lodges will pay for the hotel costs and a mileage for the officers that attend GL and for the trainings that are put on(wardens college, Secretary training, Blue Lodge trainings ect ect) not sure about NM though


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## Glen Cook (Jan 23, 2016)

In 2008, the  GM of Utah received $1,000.  That covered GM Conference. That was I t. The Grand Lecturer who covers a large state received a similar amount. The Grand Secretary and office staff were paid. I sponsored  legislation giving the DGM and wardens $500 IIRC.

OTOH, the GM of MASS received six figures, as he was running a company.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 23, 2016)

JJones said:


> They aren't paid. It's strictly volunteer and it's my understanding that GL officers are responsible for paying for their own travel expenses, meals, and so forth.  Now, in clandy GLs...this is all very possible.


Under GLoTX, much, if not all, of the GM's and other Grand Line officers' expenses are paid by the Grand Lodge.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 23, 2016)

Companion Joe said:


> I am an appointed York Rite Grand Officer this year, and I didn't get a dime. I got some gifts from the GHP and ate for free at the nine district meetings we had across the state. All my lodging, gas, and food along the way came out of my pocket.


That's not unusual for appointed officers.


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## JJones (Jan 23, 2016)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Under GLoTX, much, if not all, of the GM's and other Grand Line officers' expenses are paid by the Grand Lodge.



I stand corrected!


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## KSigMason (Jan 24, 2016)

A few Grand Lodge officers in Idaho are paid; the Grand Secretary is and some Grand officers have travel expenses covered.


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## dfreybur (Jan 24, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Sorry, but can you confirm the above - that GL officers all need to deposit $50K ? Little in Freemasonry surprises me... but that did...



Some caveats - I moved out of California in 2001 so I suspect they have done an inflation adjustment since then.  The earnest deposit only applies to those applying to run for Senior Grand Deacon as that's the first chair in the progressive grand line for California.  Appointed grand officers not in the progressive line are not required to demonstrate financial means.

I knew Brothers who put down the earnest money to throw their hat into the ring for the progressive grand line and one who applied then learned of the earnest money requirement.  In California the Senior Grand Deacon is appointed by the incoming Grand Master based on the recommendation of the GL's nominating committee of PGM and other long term Masonic activists.

I knew brothers who were appointed to grand chairs who were not required to put down any money.  They also were only expected to travel half the state.  Often Brothers are appointed to grand chairs so the future members of the nominating committee can get to know them better and vet them but every year there are several who are in a chair that will only hold that one grand chair ever.

Masonry at the local level can afford to not consider means testing, but at least in California a man can't be homeless when he petitions so it is considered to some extent.  At the grand lodge level it's not feasible in states where the chairs are not paid.  At the local level we only need to require that a man be self supporting with work.  At the grand level there is no choice but to require that brothers be self supporting without work.


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## AndreAshlar (Jan 24, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Some caveats - I moved out of California in 2001 so I suspect they have done an inflation adjustment since then.  The earnest deposit only applies to those applying to run for Senior Grand Deacon as that's the first chair in the progressive grand line for California.  Appointed grand officers not in the progressive line are not required to demonstrate financial means.
> 
> I knew Brothers who put down the earnest money to through their hat into the ring for the progressive grand line and one who applied then learned of the earnest money requirement.  In California the Senior Grand Deacon is appointed by the incoming Grand Master based on the recommendation of the GL's nominating committee of PGM and other long term Masonic activists.
> 
> ...


Interesting


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 24, 2016)

Anyone know if anyone in The GL in Kentucky is paid or, at least, have their expenses paid?


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## AndreAshlar (Jan 24, 2016)

Most are. And they should be.


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## The Traveling Man (Mar 15, 2016)

AndreAshlar said:


> Most are. And they should be.



I feel the exact same way.  I feel that should get paid a lot more than their current salaries.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 15, 2016)

The Traveling Man said:


> I feel the exact same way.  I feel that should get paid a lot more than their current salaries.


Why ?


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## dfreybur (Mar 15, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Why ?



On the one hand, if the equality we practice at the craft lodge level were also practiced at the grand lodge level, we would have members of the grand progressive line who could not afford the huge not reimbursed out of pocket expense it takes to be a MW GM.

On the other hand at the original 1717 meeting there was a goal to come under the patronage of a member of the royal family.  This may have been at least partially because of that financial reason.

At the blue lodge level we can afford to see the inner attributes of a man.  At the grand lodge level we can not afford that freedom.  Unless we pay a LOT more dues and they go to hired grand line.


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## Glen Cook (Mar 15, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Why ?


Fair question. You don't want to "de-select" a qualified man, even a great leader,  from GL office based on the ability to meet the financial requirements. You are expected to not just travel within your jurisdiction (which in the American West involves driving hundreds of miles) but also neighboring jurisdictions and Grand Masters Conference. 

FWIW, this is also a concern for those in regional and national offices. This June and July, I have meetings in Buffalo, TN, NM , CO and Dallas. Only TN is paid for.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 15, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Fair question. You don't want to "de-select" a qualified man, even a great leader,  from GL office based on the ability to meet the financial requirements. You are expected to not just travel within your jurisdiction (which in the American West involves driving hundreds of miles) but also neighboring jurisdictions and Grand Masters Conference.
> 
> FWIW, this is also a concern for those in regional and national offices. This June and July, I have meetings in Buffalo, TN, NM , CO and Dallas. Only TN is paid for.


Makes sense. I guess my stance is, as long as they are working and not just being paid to be in the position I'm okay with it.


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## Companion Joe (Mar 15, 2016)

I think a better way to put it is grand officers should "have their expenses covered" rather than "paid" (except for the few office type positions that are actually a full time job).


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## The Traveling Man (Mar 15, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Why ?



Because it is a job. It takes a lot of work and dedication to effectively hold an office. I don't know if I would expect Every officer to be paid (simply because I haven't given it much thought), but someone like a Secretary should definitely get paid. They have to be on call to answer questions, both in person, by phone, FAX and email. Many times they head up different committees, converse with other Lodges and Grand Lodges. They are the go-to man for many things. Their attendance is more important than probably any other officer in the Lodge. Then I start thinking "Well is it fair to pay a secretary and not the WM that he works for?" And I'm just speaking at the Lodge level. If you get into the Grand Lodge level there's even more involved and the pay should be increased.

Another post mentioned having expenses paid rather than being paid. But I feel it isn't so much about the expense, but rather the time and effort put into it. Since someone also mentioned traveling I will use that as an example: When someone asks for a ride from someone and the person giving the ride asks for gas money, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for the person to ask for $10 or so. Since they are only driving 10 miles and the average car gets 20 miles to the gallon should the person only ask for $0.90 (half of the price of 1 gallon of gas)? No, that $10 or so isn't for the gas, it's for the inconvenience, the time spent doing something, the wear and tear on the vehicle, etc.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

The Traveling Man said:


> Because it is a job. It takes a lot of work and dedication to effectively hold an office. I don't know if I would expect Every officer to be paid (simply because I haven't given it much thought), but someone like a Secretary should definitely get paid. They have to be on call to answer questions, both in person, by phone, FAX and email. Many times they head up different committees, converse with other Lodges and Grand Lodges. They are the go-to man for many things. Their attendance is more important than probably any other officer in the Lodge. Then I start thinking "Well is it fair to pay a secretary and not the WM that he works for?" And I'm just speaking at the Lodge level. If you get into the Grand Lodge level there's even more involved and the pay should be increased.
> 
> Another post mentioned having expenses paid rather than being paid. But I feel it isn't so much about the expense, but rather the time and effort put into it. Since someone also mentioned traveling I will use that as an example: When someone asks for a ride from someone and the person giving the ride asks for gas money, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for the person to ask for $10 or so. Since they are only driving 10 miles and the average car gets 20 miles to the gallon should the person only ask for $0.90 (half of the price of 1 gallon of gas)? No, that $10 or so isn't for the gas, it's for the inconvenience, the time spent doing something, the wear and tear on the vehicle, etc.


If that's the case everyone should be getting paid for time they put in. Some brothers hold no position, but put more time and work in than the secretary. I understand when it comes to the GL, but to a point. I don't believe they should be paid to the point where they say I'm not being paid enough, time to raise taxes. I see freemasonry as a brotherhood, it's something I  enjoy and something I want to be apart of. Speaking from myself, I wouldn't accept money for what I do in freemasonry. Same goes for my church.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

The Traveling Man said:


> Because it is a job. It takes a lot of work and dedication to effectively hold an office. I don't know if I would expect Every officer to be paid (simply because I haven't given it much thought), but someone like a Secretary should definitely get paid. They have to be on call to answer questions, both in person, by phone, FAX and email. Many times they head up different committees, converse with other Lodges and Grand Lodges. They are the go-to man for many things. Their attendance is more important than probably any other officer in the Lodge. Then I start thinking "Well is it fair to pay a secretary and not the WM that he works for?" And I'm just speaking at the Lodge level. If you get into the Grand Lodge level there's even more involved and the pay should be increased.
> 
> Another post mentioned having expenses paid rather than being paid. But I feel it isn't so much about the expense, but rather the time and effort put into it. Since someone also mentioned traveling I will use that as an example: When someone asks for a ride from someone and the person giving the ride asks for gas money, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for the person to ask for $10 or so. Since they are only driving 10 miles and the average car gets 20 miles to the gallon should the person only ask for $0.90 (half of the price of 1 gallon of gas)? No, that $10 or so isn't for the gas, it's for the inconvenience, the time spent doing something, the wear and tear on the vehicle, etc.


I've never asked for gas money. Again, speaking for myself. I guess that's just the way im wired.


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## Glen Cook (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> If that's the case everyone should be getting paid for time they put in. Some brothers hold no position, but put more time and work in than the secretary. I understand when it comes to the GL, but to a point. I don't believe they should be paid to the point where they say I'm not being paid enough, time to raise taxes. I see freemasonry as a brotherhood, it's something I  enjoy and something I want to be apart of. Speaking from myself, I wouldn't accept money for what I do in freemasonry. Same goes for my church.


Well, except for those such as MASS, which requires you actually leave your work for 2-3 years, I agree as to paying for time.


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## Glen Cook (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I've never asked for gas money. Again, speaking for myself. I guess that's just the way im wired.


So, if the travel expenses are $5,000 a year, do you think that would be out of the reach of some Masons?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> So, if the travel expenses are $5,000 a year, do you think that would be out of the reach of some Masons?


Me personally, I wouldn't take the position unless I had to money to support myself

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## Glen Cook (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Me personally, I wouldn't take the position unless I had to money to support myself
> 
> Sent from my 831C using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Which means that qualified Masons do not help us. Because of costs. Are we valuing the external above the internal?


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## Ripcord22A (Mar 31, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Fair question. You don't want to "de-select" a qualified man, even a great leader,  from GL office based on the ability to meet the financial requirements. You are expected to not just travel within your jurisdiction (which in the American West involves driving hundreds of miles) but also neighboring jurisdictions and Grand Masters Conference.
> 
> FWIW, this is also a concern for those in regional and national offices. This June and July, I have meetings in Buffalo, TN, NM , CO and Dallas. Only TN is paid for.


If your going to be in Albuquerque or Santa fe when you come to NM let me know, id like to buy you lunch

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