# Freemasonry in Italy is very controversial, between criminal investigations and recognition issues



## Taiuti

I'm italian, I am a good man and true, and my wish is to ask a lodge to become a regular freemason.

The problem is, in Italy it's quite unclear what it's regular or not: the most ancient, traditional and vast italian body is Grand Orient of Italy, involved in the birth of italian nation, with historical relationship with US freemasonry, and with 24.000 brothers.
But, GOI lose its regularity on 1993: UGLE shifted the recognition to the brand new Regular Grand Lodge of Italy (around 3.000 brothers today).

Nevertheless GOI it's still the only italian craft recognized by both italian Scottish Rite (official local council of Supreme Council Southern Jurisdiction, USA or "Mother Supreme Council of the World") and by most US Grand lodges (and almost 200 GL in the world).

Regular Grand Lodge of Italy is the only GL recognized in Italy by UGLE, but it's totally ignored by most GL (and there is no signal that this will change in future) probably for the traumatic and, for someone, questionable way RGLI was built.
Some questionability exists about current Grand Master of RGLI too, who has been repeatedly elected by acclamation since 2001 (only 3 years after his _initiation_ in the craft!). He was indicated as well by his predecessor, and they are family related each other.

As I said, it's a bit confusing; in your opinion which Grand Lodge should I choose to be recognized as a regular freemason, in Italy and abroad?
Thank you very much for any help and suggestion.


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## NY.Light.II

Interesting. Will keep an eye on this thread for developments


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## dfreybur

Taiuti said:


> As I said, it's a bit confusing; in your opinion which Grand Lodge should I choose to be recognized as a regular freemason, in Italy and abroad?



Very difficult question and that makes it interesting.

I looked up the recognition for California.  The most recent Proceedings I have is from 2014 as the full PDF versions are released one year back by California probably to encourage lodges to purchase the book on paper.

"*ITALY: *Grand Lodge of Italy (308);"

That refers me to a page number in "2014 List of Lodges Masonic".

http://www.pantagraphprinting.com/ESW/Files/2014IndividOrderFormFinal.pdf

It's probably not worth purchasing a copy of the book just to confirm your statement as to which one it refers to.  Most lodges own a recent copy of the book but usually not a copy from the last couple of years.

If you do not do much world travel the answer can be simple - Pick the one that you have friends in and enjoy your membership.  You don't have to be involved in the Masonic equivalent of matters of diplomacy so in most cases you can ignore the issues you list and be a member.

If you do much world travel - Where you tend to travel to matters.  Do you stay long enough to visit lodges on your travels?


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## Taiuti

Thank you for your kind answer;
"Grand Lodge of Italy" (Gran Loggia d'Italia, Obbedienza di Piazza del Gesù, Palazzo Vitelleschi) is older than a century, with many brothers of very good cultural and esoteric reputation, member of CLIPSAS, but it's a co-freemasonry that accept women so a mutual recognition with California GL sounds strange to me.
Maybe a mistype, and they intended to refer to the  "Grand Orient of Italy".

I agree with you that the best way is to find and follow "elective affinities" with someone in my city lodges (I don't have personal friends in the craft), for example in the local esoteric library where I "study".
I know that I will not be involved in matters of diplomacy for years (or ever) after my initiation, but my concern about the "right choice" of path from start.
Thank you very much for your help and understanding.


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## Warrior1256

NY.Light.II said:


> Interesting. Will keep an eye on this thread for developments


Same here.


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## Taiuti

I would to give a partial response to JamestheJust, that could help brothers interested in topic, to understand more italian freemasonry.
In United States local lodges are very visible and "part of the town"; but In Italy they are hidden, disguised as obscure sociology/story centers, have no public phone numbers, a few have a website and very fewer update it. They become visible only in rare local conferences.
It has been always like that, since Chatolic Pope's ban on 1738 when Italy hosted only few english lodges in Tuscany, and some other very secret lodges of egyptian rite in Naples and Calabria. That was before an italian Grand Lodge exist (1805), or an italian nation at all (1860).
The P2 investigation against Licio Gelli's secret lodge, even if he was more a spy than a freemason, didn't help mainstream popularity of the craft.

Only Grand Lodges (the traditional Grand Orient of Italy, the co-freemasonry Grand Lodge of Italy and the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy recognized by UGLE) have public numbers and emails, but they are very "defensive" after a direct approach.

For this reason, it's impossible in Italy to make an open check like the one JamestheJust suggest, and the only way to figure it out is "sniffing" in libraries and conferences attended by brothers.


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## Brother JC

Taiuti said:


> UGLE's Grand Regular Lodge of Italy


I'm not sure what you mean by this phrase... the Grand Regular Lodge of Italy is recognized by UGLE but does not belong to them.


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## Ripcord22A

Brother JC said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by this phrase... the Grand Regular Lodge of Italy is recognized by UGLE but does not belong to them.


 Thats what I took it to mean.  that it is the GL that is recognized


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## Taiuti

Brother JC said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by this phrase... the Grand Regular Lodge of Italy is recognized by UGLE but does not belong to them.



Sorry, maybe I used too much sinthesis, yes I meant that Regular Grand Lodge of Italy (my typo) is the one recognized by UGLE


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## Brother JC

Thanks. The possessive nature of the statement had me wondering...


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## MarkR

And most American Grand Lodges recognize the Grand Orient of Italy.


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## Taiuti

A little update: yesterday the Grand Lodge of Turkey has re-recognized Grand Orient of Italy, leaving Regular Grand Lodge of Italy.
The weird thing is that RGLI GM:. come to visit Grand Lodge of Turkey only 12 months ago.

At the moment 41 GLs recognize RGLI, but only 13 come from developed countries, there are 12 Prince Hall, no one from Western Europe and no one non-Prince Hall US Grand Lodge. Slightly but constantly, every year some GLs retire recognition from RGLI in favor of GOI; that's odd because most of them are regular GL recognized by UGLE, that usually forbid relations with irregular freemasonry. I suppose that UGLE is not only informed by GL of that mutual recognitions requests, but maybe it's actively but silently promoting the restore of international relationships with GOI.
At the moment GOI has mutual recognition with 194 GLs all over the world.

Obviously the choice for the Grand Lodge to ask to become a freemason (my only concern, sincerely) is NOT a matter of numbers, but can that signals be ignored?


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## Taiuti

So, the alternatives for an humble man are the same as at the start of the thread:

1) Grand Orient of Italy, the only italian Grand Lodge internationally recognized as representative of italian traditional and historical freemasonry with 24.000 brothers;

2) Regular Grand Lodge of Italy, the "official" Grand Lodge recognized by UGLE and by only few others GLs, that is losing international regard year by year.


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## dfreybur

I suggest you go with your heart, carefully checked by your head.  At the start don't worry about international recognition just deal with the local brothers.  Make your own choice and hold your head high at your own level of responsibility.  Leave the international matters to those involved at the grand lodge level.

Or go to Malta and petition the UGLE district GL there ...


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## pipoyviste

Seek and you shall find ...15 years til i become a mm...its not easy but very priceless


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## pipoyviste

Tauiti.... Do u believe in god?


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## Ripcord22A

@pipoyviste why is it gonna take you 15 yrs till you become a MM?

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


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## leomar

Taiuti said:


> I'm italian, I am a good man and true, and my wish is to ask a lodge to become a regular freemason.
> 
> The problem is, in Italy it's quite unclear what it's regular or not: the most ancient, traditional and vast italian body is Grand Orient of Italy, involved in the birth of italian nation, with historical relationship with US freemasonry, and with 24.000 brothers.
> But, GOI lose its regularity on 1993: UGLE shifted the recognition to the brand new Regular Grand Lodge of Italy (around 3.000 brothers today).
> 
> Nevertheless GOI it's still the only italian craft recognized by both italian Scottish Rite (official local council of Supreme Council Southern Jurisdiction, USA or "Mother Supreme Council of the World") and by most US Grand lodges (and almost 200 GL in the world).
> 
> Regular Grand Lodge of Italy is the only GL recognized in Italy by UGLE, but it's totally ignored by most GL (and there is no signal that this will change in future) probably for the traumatic and, for someone, questionable way RGLI was built.
> Some questionability exists about current Grand Master of RGLI too, who has been repeatedly elected by acclamation since 2001 (only 3 years after his _initiation_ in the craft!). He was indicated as well by his predecessor, and they are family related each other.
> 
> As I said, it's a bit confusing; in your opinion which Grand Lodge should I choose to be recognized as a regular freemason, in Italy and abroad?
> Thank you very much for any help and suggestion.


Actually, the Grand Orient of Italy is not deemed "Irregular" by the UGLE, it is simply not recognized. That was demonstrated by the fact that UGLE recognized the Most Serene Grand Lodge of San Marino created by the Grand Orient of Italy. The UGLE stated that while Grand Orient of Italy is not recognized, it is accepted that they work regularly, so there are no hindrances in recognizing a Grand Lodge created by them. Regularity is not given by recognition from the UGLE but by by adherence to the landmarks and by having a pure origin from a Regular Grand Lodge. "...
Report of the Board of General Purposes - 8 June 2011​The Grand Lodge of the Most Serene Republic of San Marino
On 3 April 2003 the Grand Lodge of the Most Serene Republic of San Marino was consecrated by the Grand Orient of Italy from three Lodges meeting there. Although the Grand Orient of Italy is no longer recognised by this Grand Lodge we have publicly stated that we accept that its Lodges are working regularly".




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						Report of the Board of General Purposes - 8 June 2011
					

QUARTERLY COMMUNICATION OF GRAND LODGEREPORT OF THE BOARD OF GENERAL PURPOSESWEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2011The Minutes of the Quarterly Communication of 9 Mar...




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## coachn




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