# National Supreme Council A.A.S.R.



## Shahkem

Greetings Brethren. I was initiated, passed and raised in a Masonic organization known as the National Supreme Council of A.A.S.R headquartered in Detroit. I was initially petitioning for PHA membership, but it seemed like they were dragging their feet. So I came across some Scottish Rite Brothers that were younger and had a much more voracious  appetite than the PHA Brethren so I asked the WM. of the Scottish Rite Lodge to show me their charter to work sand he did, so I thought they were regular. 

This Organization doesn't have a Grand Lodge, they claim affiliation with the Supreme Council from France through a brother named Baron Auguste  hugo debulow. But after some studying I start to question the legit nature of this organization. I'm seriously considering going over to PHA.  Does anybody here known anything about this organization. Is it considered irregular or clandestine 

Thank you in advance!








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## crono782

Yes it is both irregular and clandestine unfortunately. 


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## widows son

^^^ yup.


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## Shahkem

Thank you for your responses. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around all of this irregular/clandestine  business. What makes this body irregular? Is it because they have no connection with the UGLE? I ask that because, when I asked the WM about their charter, he told me that their charter is from a Supreme Council and that France had Supreme Councils not Grand Lodges. 


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## Jericho2013

I'm assuming the PHA is the same in that you cannot join the Scottish Rite until you have been raised a master mason in a regular lodge chartered by the grand lodge in your state.  Best of luck to you!


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## phamason

Bro Shahkem I was apart of that organization at one time PM me and I can tell u all about them but bro Crono is correct they are clandestine

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## JAB

I *just *returned my petition along with the 116$ fee this past week to a lodge under the NSC :52:


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## rnelson357

You should request a refund. Do not take part in that scam. The only body in America that is considered legitimate that uses the title Scottish Rite that is not the AASR nj sj or PHA is the supreme council of Louisiana. 


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## JAB

rnelson357 said:


> You should request a refund. Do not take part in that scam. The only body in America that is considered legitimate that uses the title Scottish Rite that is not the AASR nj sj or PHA is the supreme council of Louisiana.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect HD


That's what I'm going to try to do tomorrow. I'm glad I seen this thread before they called me to be initiated. That would've been another 116$ gone to waste >.< So glad i found this thread when I did.


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## JTM

phamason said:


> Bro Shahkem I was apart of that organization at one time PM me and I can tell u all about them but bro Crono is correct they are clandestine
> 
> Freemason Connect HD


Thank you for helping him.  Please follow up to help him knock on the correct door


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## mm357

Theyre trying to get me to come to them but I been investigating and things don't seem right it's always coming up bogus I messed up and payed them $150 so how can I get my refund


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## Mel Knight

In no order I would contact either prince hall or go to the Grand Lodge of Michigan website and select a lodge.


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## dfreybur

mm357 said:


> I messed up and payed them $150 so how can I get my refund



Legit lodges will return your check or issue a refund on your request.  As they aren't legit I have no idea if they will do that on your request.  Is it worth small claims court?


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## acjohnson53

I highly agree...


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## mm357

Thanks


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## mrpierce17

rnelson357 said:


> You should request a refund. Do not take part in that scam. The only body in America that is considered legitimate that uses the title Scottish Rite that is not the AASR nj sj or PHA is the supreme council of Louisiana.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect HD


Louisiana is no longer recognized by the MWUGLofFL  as of our 146th annual grand communication it was announced by our Most Worshipful Grand Master the weekend before last


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## dfreybur

mrpierce17 said:


> Louisiana is no longer recognized by the MWUGLofFL  as of our 146th annual grand communication it was announced by our Most Worshipful Grand Master the weekend before last



Is that GLofLA (which has had some red lodges since the time they organized), MWPHGLofLA or some other jurisdiction in Louisiana that isn't on the two lists of regular jurisdictions?

If the story is public please post a summary or link to discussion of why the decision was made.


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## mrpierce17

This one http://mwphglla.net/


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## mrpierce17

http://theadvocate.com/news/10189743-123/ralph-slaughter-ruling-reversed-by


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## mrpierce17

http://ladistrict7pha.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/USC-TN-withdrawal-of-Fraternal-recognition.pdf


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## mrpierce17

http://www.nola.com/education/index.ssf/2009/12/former_southern_university_pre.html


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## mrpierce17




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## Bill Lins

So, what happened that caused y'all to withdraw recognition?


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## mrpierce17

Don't want to jump the gun on the why but from my understanding it had to do with a suspension and the formation of a National supreme Council A.A.S.R. headed by mr Slaughter and he is the Grand Master of PHA Mason's in The state of Louisiana


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## mrpierce17

If I am wrong about the circumstances someone pleas correct me but I am definitely sure we did withdraw fraternal relations with the most worshipful prince hall grand lodge of Louisiana and letters where sent out to that grand lodge stating so


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## mrpierce17

Just went on the conference of grand masters website and Louisiana won't even open now


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## BroBook

Yes we did withdraw recognition from the MWPHGL of Louisiana, for territory infringement in the US Virgin Islands 


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## Dontrell Stroman

Who all pulled recognition from GL of LA ?

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## Ripcord22A

So the PHGLoLA pulled recognition from the PH-AASR SC and started their own SC?

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## tldubb

Wow


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## MRichard

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> So the PHGLoLA pulled recognition from the PH-AASR SC and started their own SC?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



Basically Slaughter blew the whistle on some questionable dealings in their USC - Southern Jurisdiction. Around the same time, it was discovered that $1,000,000 was stolen from the USC. http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story...masonic-group-240k-spent-on-grizzlies-tickets   Allegedly, he didn't get the position he wanted when they had elections. There is a open facebook group with a lot of documents. Kinda difficult to sort through all of it. But several PHA states pulled recognition from PHA-LA. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1055095587886098/ . Initially it was six states: OK, TX, AR, AL, MS, TN. Probably more now.


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## mrpierce17

MRichard said:


> Basically Slaughter blew the whistle on some questionable dealings in their USC - Southern Jurisdiction. Around the same time, it was discovered that $1,000,000 was stolen from the USC. http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story...masonic-group-240k-spent-on-grizzlies-tickets   Allegedly, he didn't get the position he wanted when they had elections. There is a open facebook group with a lot of documents. Kinda difficult to sort through all of it. But several PHA states pulled recognition from PHA-LA. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1055095587886098/ . Initially it was six states: OK, TX, AR, AL, MS, TN. Probably more now.


The territorial infringement was the straw that broke the camels back for Florida ...snowball effect


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## Ripcord22A

Has the PHA SC fixed their issues?

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## MRichard

mrpierce17 said:


> The territorial infringement was the straw that broke the camels back for Florida ...snowball effect



I think it it is a lot deeper than that. Slaughter is on an island right now with little support. Look at when the other states pulled recognition and all of those grand masters were allegedly involved in the issues that were going on with the USC- Southern Jurisdiction. People take sides but there are serious problems regardless whose side you take.

He also attempted to create a new USC as has been previously mentioned.


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## Ripcord22A

MRichard said:


> USC- Southern Jurisdiction.


 
You are referring to PHA SC right?


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## MRichard

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> You are referring to PHA SC right?



Yes


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## caution22113

Due to the federal investigation involving members of the USC-SJ in TN, several Orients voted to leave.


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## Sublim357

mrpierce17 said:


> Louisiana is no longer recognized by the MWUGLofFL  as of our 146th annual grand communication it was announced by our Most Worshipful Grand Master the weekend before last


For now Louisiana isn't recognized until the court proceedings are finished then all the ones in SR 33° will more and likely fall. 

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## Ripcord22A

Wait....FL pulled recognition from PHGLoLA because of the actions of the PH AASR?


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## mrpierce17

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Wait....FL pulled recognition from PHGLoLA because of the actions of the PH AASR?


Along with Territory infringement in the USVI


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## Ripcord22A

If a territory doesn't have a GL of its own, how is it infringement?  Isnt that how pretty much every GL in the states was founded?  by multiple GLs founding lodges in a territory then those lodges consolidate and form a GL?  I don't see how either of these things are grounds for recognition to be pulled.  Especially when PH is trying so hard to get recognition from our side of the family tree.  If you guys don't even recognize each other how do you expect us to?

and just for clarification I think every state needs to recognize its PH counterpart.


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## mrpierce17

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> If a territory doesn't have a GL of its own, how is it infringement?  Isnt that how pretty much every GL in the states was founded?  by multiple GLs founding lodges in a territory then those lodges consolidate and form a GL?  I don't see how either of these things are grounds for recognition to be pulled.  Especially when PH is trying so hard to get recognition from our side of the family tree.  If you guys don't even recognize each other how do you expect us to?
> 
> and just for clarification I think every state needs to recognize its PH counterpart.


The USVI falls under FL jurisdiction as well as Belize & Central America and btw lets not start pointing fingers a few of you guys GL' s are pulling recognition from each other because of Men's sexual preference


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## Ripcord22A

mrpierce17 said:


> The USVI falls under FL jurisdiction as well as Belize & Central America and btw lets not start pointing fingers a few of you guys GL' s are pulling recognition from each other because of Men's sexual preference


Not pointing fingers.  I don't agree with the pulling of recognition for that either.  And I don't agree that GA and TN should ban gay men either.  But they are a sovereign entity and can do as they want, as can PHA FL...doesn't mean I have to agree with it. 

I didn't know that PHA FL covers that much ground.  That must be hard on the GM, travel wise.


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## mrpierce17

Oh yes our GM is always at work feel free to take a look at our website it's right there soon as you login in our GL name 

http://www.mwuglflorida.org/


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## JB93

What do you mean by this statement below? Im just trying to understand everything btw..

I didn't know that PHA FL covers that much ground.  That must be hard on the GM, travel wise.[/QUOTE]


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## Ripcord22A

JB93 said:


> What do you mean by this statement below? Im just trying to understand everything btw..
> I didn't know that PHA FL covers that much ground.  That must be hard on the GM, travel wise.



the MWUGLoFL, which is the PHA GL of FL, covers Belize and all the countries of Central America and the USVI the GM must be traveling all the time.  and the GL must haveone hell of an expense account


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## dfreybur

mrpierce17 said:


> The USVI falls under FL jurisdiction as well as Belize & Central America



So the Virgin Islands are a disputed territory that has become even more disputed.  What a mess.  Bureaucrats will love to deal with that paperwork.

Usually jurisdictions ask each other and grant permission and no one worries.  But since neither LA nor FL have recognition within their states that's not an option.  Everyone needs to complete the set on local recognition so this sort of nonsense smooths itself out.  "Hey Brothers across the hall, any objection if we charter a lodge in Outer West Wawhovia?"  "Nah, go for it."  "Cool, we'll send a FAX to make it official."  "What's a FAX?"  "Never mind we'll send paper snail mail."  "Or you could deliver by hand at a Stated meeting next week.  Just saying."

It's very confusing to have it linked to a fraud case.


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## mrpierce17

dfreybur said:


> So the Virgin Islands are a disputed territory that has become even more disputed.  What a mess.  Bureaucrats will love to deal with that paperwork.
> 
> Usually jurisdictions ask each other and grant permission and no one worries.  But since neither LA nor FL have recognition within their states that's not an option.  Everyone needs to complete the set on local recognition so this sort of nonsense smooths itself out.  "Hey Brothers across the hall, any objection if we charter a lodge in Outer West Wawhovia?"  "Nah, go for it."  "Cool, we'll send a FAX to make it official."  "What's a FAX?"  "Never mind we'll send paper snail mail."  "Or you could deliver by hand at a Stated meeting next week.  Just saying."
> 
> It's very confusing to have it linked to a fraud case.


Simple fix who was there first??


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## acjohnson53

wow


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## Bloke

mrpierce17 said:


> Simple fix who was there first??



Hmmmm, isn't that the same solution which saw PH GLs  and Lodges outside the mainstream of Freemasonry for hundreds of years? With hindsight, "who is first" is not always the best solution or clear cut...


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## mrpierce17

Bloke said:


> Hmmmm, isn't that the same solution which saw PH GLs  and Lodges outside the mainstream of Freemasonry for hundreds of years? With hindsight, "who is first" is not always the best solution or clear cut...


Even in that situation wasn't it still the lodge that was recognized and there first for instance if a IF&AMM who aren't recognized outside of there own circle where to move into a Territory in witch there was no GL of state or PHA GL  if either of the two above where to move in would they write that GL notifying them of their plans to establish lodges in that area ,a lodge that isn't recognized doesn't necessarily play by anyone's rules they make up there own as they go


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## Ripcord22A

IF&AAM?  never heard of them.  if they are in irregular group then no they wouldn't.  As for PHA and State GLs UGLE says that PHA is regular, they may not all recognize each other BUT.....Lets look at it like this....
Mars: no lodge there; TN PHA establishes one, Then TN GL establishes one.  Since TN and TN PHA don't recognize each other its no big deal.  No difference then TN PHA establishing a PHA GL in TN even though TN GL already existed- 2 regular but not mutually recognizing entities operating with in each others area.  Now Both of those GLs get 3 or more constituent lodges who join together to form their own GLs.  They can then decide if they will recognize each other.
Where there would be a problem is if after said MARS GL or Mars PHA GL was formed that a GL that recognized them also tried to form their own lodge with our permission.  getting permission to do so is not unheard of.....


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## mrpierce17

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> IF&AAM?  never heard of them.  if they are in irregular group then no they wouldn't.  As for PHA and State GLs UGLE says that PHA is regular, they may not all recognize each other BUT.....Lets look at it like this....
> Mars: no lodge there; TN PHA establishes one, Then TN GL establishes one.  Since TN and TN PHA don't recognize each other its no big deal.  No difference then TN PHA establishing a PHA GL in TN even though TN GL already existed- 2 regular but not mutually recognizing entities operating with in each others area.  Now Both of those GLs get 3 or more constituent lodges who join together to form their own GLs.  They can then decide if they will recognize each other.
> Where there would be a problem is if after said MARS GL or Mars PHA GL was formed that a GL that recognized them also tried to form their own lodge with our permission.  getting permission to do so is not unheard of.....


That's my point exactly and the above was a typo IF&AMM International free and accepted  Modern Mason


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## Dontrell Stroman

Not to mention MF&AM

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## mrpierce17

In regards to two lodges that don't recognized each other it doesn't really matter but when you have two regular lodges that do recognize each other up to that point there's going to be a problem , if the GL of FL decided to start forming lodges in TN or one of their jurisdictions/ territories with out permission and I doubt they would get it being TN was already established there the new lodge should come up under GL of TN because they are already there wouldn't you think


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## Ripcord22A

ok so LAPHA and FLPHA did recognize each other but then LA chartered a lodge in the USVI?


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## mrpierce17

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> ok so LAPHA and FLPHA did recognize each other but then LA chartered a lodge in the USVI?


Yes


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## Ripcord22A

ok.  Did FL then just straight pull recognition or was there correspondence asking them to leave?


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## mrpierce17

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> ok.  Did FL then just straight pull recognition or was there correspondence asking them to leave?


Correspondents where sent out


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## Ripcord22A

Alrighty then.  Pull recognition all day long in that situation.  Im by no means a subject matter expert in masonic jurisprudence but I think it is justified in this case.  Thanks for clearing that up Brother!


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## mrpierce17

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Alrighty then.  Pull recognition all day long in that situation.  Im by no means a subject matter expert in masonic jurisprudence but I think it is justified in this case.  Thanks for clearing that up Brother!


Me either but yea pretty cut and dry there I think we do a ok job playing by the rules here in FL I hope to se both sides unite in the near future


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## Glen Cook

mrpierce17 said:


> Me either but yea pretty cut and dry there I think we do a ok job playing by the rules here in FL I hope to se both sides unite in the near future


I'm told PHA FL is in amity with Grand  Lodge of France.


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## Ripcord22A

And that's the athestic/irregular one right?  Frace confuses me

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## Glen Cook

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> And that's the athestic/irregular one right?  Frace confuses me
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


GLNF is recognized. The others are not. 

GLdF purportedly allows intervisitation with Grand Orient and feminine GLs. It also entered into a concordat recognising the initiation of GLdF. 

Grand Orient does not require a belief in deity.


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## dfreybur

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> France confuses me



French - A shape that chefs cut food to match.
French - A people.
French - A language.
French - A kiss.

Join the club of confused people!


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## mrpierce17

Glen Cook said:


> I'm told PHA FL is in amity with Grand  Lodge of France.


I will have to look in to this it wouldn't surprise me I do know we have a military lodge in Germany and recently made a brother a Honorary PGM who was instrumental in establishing over 15 lodges on European soil he will be spearheading the move to get us recognition with the UGLE I will get his name and report back some may have heard of him


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## mrpierce17

mrpierce17 said:


> I will have to look in to this it wouldn't surprise me I do know we have a military lodge in Germany and recently made a brother a Honorary PGM who was instrumental in establishing over 15 lodges on European soil he will be spearheading the move to get us recognition with the UGLE I will get his name and report back some may have heard of him


I believe his name is  Augustus H. Cox  waiting on confirmation to see if the name is correct


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## mrpierce17

mrpierce17 said:


> I believe his name is  Augustus H. Cox  waiting on confirmation to see if the name is correct


Correction that's the oldest active member of our jurisdiction the correct name will be coming shortly had a miss communication I didn't think he looked that old


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## Glen Cook

mrpierce17 said:


> I will have to look in to this it wouldn't surprise me I do know we have a military lodge in Germany and recently made a brother a Honorary PGM who was instrumental in establishing over 15 lodges on European soil he will be spearheading the move to get us recognition with the UGLE I will get his name and report back some may have heard of him


Is PHA FL in amity with GL FL?


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## mrpierce17

Glen Cook said:


> Is PHA FL in amity with GL FL?


Not yet


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## dfreybur

mrpierce17 said:


> Not yet



There's a race going on.  Who will win?  Our Masonic principles leading to recognition and regular visitation, or the rising sea level that will eventually erase Florida.


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## mrpierce17

dfreybur said:


> There's a race going on.  Who will win?  Our Masonic principles leading to recognition and regular visitation, or the rising sea level that will eventually erase Florida.


 looks like the sea will win jk


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## Glen Cook

mrpierce17 said:


> Not yet


Then I question whether they will gain UGLE recognition or, if they are in amity with GLoF, any CGMNA GL


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## mrpierce17

Glen Cook said:


> Then I question whether they will gain UGLE recognition or, if they are in amity with GLoF, any CGMNA GL


Only time will tell Florida will eventually have to get on board with the rest of the Masonic world this is a new day younger brothers are coming in on both sides it's 2016 not 1916 times are a changing


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## Glen Cook

mrpierce17 said:


> Only time will tell Florida will eventually have to get on board with the rest of the Masonic world this is a new day younger brothers are coming in on both sides it's 2016 not 1916 times are a changing


My point wasn't clear. If a GL is in amity with GLdF, it may be that no one will seek amity with the GL.  MN is the example.


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## mrpierce17

Glen Cook said:


> My point wasn't clear. If a GL is in amity with GLdF, it may be that no one will seek amity with the GL.  MN is the example.


Your point was very clear I know about the connecting of dots in order to gain recognition that's why I made the statement about Florida getting on board with the rest of the Masonic world


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## Glen Cook

mrpierce17 said:


> Your point was very clear I know about the connecting of dots in order to gain recognition that's why I made the statement about Florida getting on board with the rest of the Masonic world


You mean PHA FL?


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## mrpierce17

I mean FL PHA and FL GL of state it will take a compromise on both sides it takes 2 to tango


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## Glen Cook

mrpierce17 said:


> I mean FL PHA and FL GL of state it will take a compromise on both sides it takes 2 to tango


Unfortunately, it will be difficult to dance when PHA has another partner


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## Ripcord22A

I bemieve NM has a blanket recognition with PHA.  We recognize NM PHA and by the blanket recognition we recognize all pha lodges they reconize...so by default we recognize fl pha

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## mrpierce17

Glen Cook said:


> Unfortunately, it will be difficult to dance when PHA has another partner


Please explain what partner you are referring to because now I'm confused??


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## Glen Cook

mrpierce17 said:


> Please explain what partner you are referring to because now I'm confused??


If PHA is in amity with GLdF, it can complicate recognition of PHA by CGMNA GLs, as seen in the MN example


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## Glen Cook

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I bemieve NM has a blanket recognition with PHA.  We recognize NM PHA and by the blanket recognition we recognize all pha lodges they reconize...so by default we recognize fl pha
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


PHA is regular, but may NM Masons attend PHA FL?


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## Ripcord22A

You know ive asked this of our current Grand JW about other PHA Jurisdictions and his answer was the "when in Rome" answer.  If we were just visiting FL then itd probably be ok if they let us pass the tyler.  But if we were relocating probably not.  But if they came to NM we could let them in all day.  

P.s. this is not an official statement from the gl of nm as i hold no office to be able to speak for such...

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## mrpierce17

Glen Cook said:


> If PHA is in amity with GLdF, it can complicate recognition of PHA by CGMNA GLs, as seen in the MN example


Don't really see how that could complicate things seems more like that would only open the door for other GL's to follow suit but I'm by no means an expert on this matter I will have to look into Minnesota so I can see where your coming from if both GL's are in good standing with their other counterparts I don't see what the problem would be if they are not I see a problem


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## Glen Cook

mrpierce17 said:


> Don't really see how that could complicate things seems more like that would only open the door for other GL's to follow suit but I'm by no means an expert on this matter I will have to look into Minnesota so I can see where your coming from if both GL's are in good standing with their other counterparts I don't see what the problem would be if they are not I see a problem


Previously, eight GLs withdrew/suspended recognition of MN when it recognized GLdF. MN then rescinded recognition of GLdF. When GEKT had its dalliance with another clandestine French group, Great Priory of England gave notice they would consider withdrawing recognition. We look at who you play with.


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## Glen Cook

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> You know ive asked this of our current Grand JW about other PHA Jurisdictions and his answer was the "when in Rome" answer.  If we were just visiting FL then itd probably be ok if they let us pass the tyler.  But if we were relocating probably not.  But if they came to NM we could let them in all day.
> 
> P.s. this is not an official statement from the gl of nm as i hold no office to be able to speak for such...
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Many GLs have the When in Rome rule.


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## mrpierce17

Glen Cook said:


> Previously, eight GLs withdrew/suspended recognition of MN when it recognized GLdF. MN then rescinded recognition of GLdF. When GEKT had its dalliance with another clandestine French group, Great Priory of England gave notice they would consider withdrawing recognition. We look at who you play with.


Now I see where you are coming from I thought GLofFL was in amity with the other GL of states well well you learn something new everyday thanks for the lesson Brother Cook


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## mrpierce17

I'm still trying to get a confirmation on weather or not we recognize the GL of France


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## Glen Cook

mrpierce17 said:


> Now I see where you are coming from I thought GLofFL was in amity with the other GL of states well well you learn something new everyday thanks for the lesson Brother Cook


GLoFl is in amity with the other states. It's GLPHA that may have an issue


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## mrpierce17

The MWUGLofFL is also in amity with all other PHA GL's wither the exception of LA and I believe they are no longer a part of the PHA COGM still listed on the website but if you try to click on them it no longer opens that's where I'm trying to figure out where the problem would be pertaining MWGLofFL  and MWUGLofFL other than the dirty little secret that plaques the other southern states that are not in amity with each other


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## Ripcord22A

mrpierce17 said:


> The MWUGLofFL is also in amity with all other PHA GL's wither the exception of LA and I believe they are no longer a part of the PHA COGM still listed on the website but if you try to click on them it no longer opens that's where I'm trying to figure out where the problem would be pertaining MWGLofFL  and MWUGLofFL other than the dirty little secret that plaques the other southern states that are not in amity with each other


The problem would be if PHA FL recognizes GLdF  as GLdF is not recognized by UGLE or the CGMNA GLs


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## mrpierce17

Don't know if we do or not still waiting on confirmation on that I have never heard of that until a brother previously mentioned on this tread that he had heard it I will give my deputy a call and find out for sure


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## dfreybur

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I bemieve NM has a blanket recognition with PHA.  We recognize NM PHA and by the blanket recognition we recognize all pha lodges they reconize...so by default we recognize fl pha



That's not the way blanket recognition normally works.  Normally blanket recognition gives recognition to all states that have local recognition.

http://bessel.org/masrec/phablanket.htm

Does NM really recognize all PHA jurisdictions in the list here?  I would love a reference confirming that!

http://www.conferenceofgrandmasterspha.org/gjlinks.asp


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## Ripcord22A

dfreybur said:


> That's not the way blanket recognition normally works.  Normally blanket recognition gives recognition to all states that have local recognition.
> 
> http://bessel.org/masrec/phablanket.htm
> 
> Does NM really recognize all PHA jurisdictions in the list here?  I would love a reference confirming that!
> 
> http://www.conferenceofgrandmasterspha.org/gjlinks.asp


Im really not sure, I am just going off of what I was told by out JGW a few months back.  The question I asked is that since we recognize NMPHA and NMPHA recognizes all PHAGLs what if we were in lodge at a NMPHA had a PHA brother from say Arkansas PHA was there? Or say a CGMNA GL of Arkansas was at our lodge and our local PHA brothers came,  That's when he said when in Rome....But he also said that we have a compact with the NM PHA GL and that in that compact we agree to recognize all GLs that they recognize and vice versa.

Like I said I am not a GL officer or a line officer in my lodge here.  As when I move from NM I will more then likely Demit and keep my membership in OR as it is my mother lodge and where my wife and I plan to retire so I haven't really bothered myself the traveling rules of NM as I will most likely travel as an OR mason.  I will find out though.


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## mrpierce17

mrpierce17 said:


> Don't know if we do or not still waiting on confirmation on that I have never heard of that until a brother previously mentioned on this tread that he had heard it I will give my deputy a call and find out for sure


Just emailed the Grand CCFC for a list of GL's in which we share mutual recognition with


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## Glen Cook

mrpierce17 said:


> The MWUGLofFL is also in amity with all other PHA GL's wither the exception of LA and I believe they are no longer a part of the PHA COGM still listed on the website but if you try to click on them it no longer opens that's where I'm trying to figure out where the problem would be pertaining MWGLofFL  and MWUGLofFL other than the dirty little secret that plaques the other southern states that are not in amity with each other


If PHA FL is in amity with GLdF, it may complicate recognition with any CGMNA GL, including GLFL.  We don't like GLdF, and we may not let people play with us if those people play with GLdF.  TBMK, there are only three PHA GLs in amity with GLdF, per Ralph McNeal, who is well recognized in the PHA community.

The racism of some GL's is hardly a secret. The problem is that relations w/ an unrecognized GL is a legitimate reason to deny recognition, as seen with MN and GEKT.


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## PM Kris Jackson

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Alrighty then.  Pull recognition all day long in that situation.  Im by no means a subject matter expert in masonic jurisprudence but I think it is justified in this case.  Thanks for clearing that up Brother!



No my brother, it's not actually cleared up. But please allow me to explain. They once were all a band of friends, referring to a particular small groups of GMs. GM Slaughter-LA considered GM Vaughn-TN as a mentor of sorts, he even fondly referred to him as "the dean of GMs". It's important to mention that this "small group" were also the top ranking officers of the USC-SJPHA. Well, a few years ago, as a part of a succession plan, discussion began concerning GM Slaughter taking the seat of SGC after SGC Vaughn stepped down since the brother who was #2 was unable to (the reason I forget). In preparation for this transition GM Slaughter (who is a CPA by trade) after hearing rumors amongst the SC, requested an audit of the books for fear that he might inherit a volatile situation. The audit initially found that $1.2 million was unaccounted for, and further investigation raised the total closer to $3 million. Not only feeling betrayed, but also remaining mindful of his duties as a GM he chose to act not only in the best interest of the USC-SJ PHA and it's membership, but also to protect the brothers of his jurisdiction by not exposing our GL to the intense scrutiny that was being felt by the SC from the IRS and the FBI. After the situation was exposed, elections were held, and the brothers involved still opted to keep SGC Vaughn in leadership, GM Slaughter realized the problem went further than SGC Vaughn and the Tech who stole $100,000+ from the USC paypal account. He then removed recognition from the USC-SJ PHA ONLY, and in conjunction with other jurisdictions who felt the same way, decided to start a new USC-SJ (NOT NATIONAL) in Washington D.C. (NOT DETROIT). Then GM Vaughn and the others involved decided to retaliate by removing recognition from LA on the Blue Lodge level, although this issue has nothing to do with the Blue Lodge. The reason they originally gave was, to sum it up, "he was unmasonic because he told on us and brothers don't tell on each other". Well, masonically I must admit that on SOME levels I agree. But I must also add that 1st, I have a little brother and YES brothers DO tell on each other; 2nd what is actually unmasonic is being entrusted with the highest office in a branch of masonry and dishonoring that position by stealing from the brotherhood. The guy who sticks up for the brotherhood and exposes the theft, even at the risk of being ostracized, he is the hero not the villain. 

As far as the Virgin Islands thing, what happened with that was the brothers of the islands had everything the masonically needed to start their own GL. They went to FL for their blessing and assistance, because that's who they were under, only to be basically held hostage. The only reasons I've been able to get from anyone who would actually know is it was because the GM of FL wasn't quite ready to lose the islands for whatever reasons ($$ in my opinion). After GM Slaughter received a request to help them (VI) and decided to oblige, the GM of FL decided to jump on the "no LA" bandwagon. I hope I didn't leave anything out.


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## Ripcord22A

But starting your own AASR is unmasonic.  Its a clandestine organisation.

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## dfreybur

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> But starting your own AASR is unmasonic.  Its a clandestine organisation.



Starting any new order has that problem.  The order has to stay in business a few years to demonstrate it's viable before they start applying for recognition.

What choices do they have at this point?  In the north they could just request affiliation with AASR-SJ or SR-NMJ valleys.  In the south that's not an option.

Blue lodge and Grand Lodge should never have been brought into it, but embezzlement should have never happened either.  We've seen similar whizzing matches in Arkansas with the Shrine over less important matters.

The Virgin Islands charter situation would bring about delays, but that type of issue comes up surprisingly often.  A new lodge is chartered by a jurisdiction that is willing.  There's a stink.  Other jurisdictions that could have said yes in the first place say yes, stink disappears.


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## Ripcord22A

Ive seen this happen at the orient level but not the SC level.  What happened in the orient was the SGC came with the SGIGs of a couple other orients and moved some stuff(people) around removed leadership ect ect, placed the orient under the comtrol of the SC for awhile and now a valley that was about to go dormant is alive and well and prospering.  I think if there is a recognised issue at the SC level that the SGIGs and Deputies that arent involved and realise there is a problem can come together, with the help possibly with the help of the conference of Grand masters and get it cleared up with out starting a whole new organization

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## caution22113

In the DMV area, a lot of Fraters are federal employees. Rather than risk their clearances/jobs by having their names come up in a federal investigation, they voted to sever ties with the USC-SJ PHA in TN.


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## Ripcord22A

Dmv? Fraters?

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## caution22113

DMV: DC, Maryland, Virginia 
Fraters: Scottish Rite equivalent to Brothers


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## Bloke

caution22113 said:


> DMV: DC, Maryland, Virginia
> Fraters: Scottish Rite equivalent to Brothers


Frater is a Latin word meaning brother and is the source of "fraternity"


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## Ripcord22A

Im a SR Mason and never heard that used, it always been Bro, Honored Bro and Illustrious Bro.

As for the "federal" employees loosing their clearance or job for being a witness for the prosecution in a federal case is hog wash.  Being a whistle blower in a pvt group wont cost you ur job or clearance

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## caution22113

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Im a SR Mason and never heard that used, it always been Bro, Honored Bro and Illustrious Bro.
> 
> As for the "federal" employees loosing their clearance or job for being a witness for the prosecution in a federal case is hog wash.  Being a whistle blower in a pvt group wont cost you ur job or clearance
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Believe what you will, the fact still remains that several Orients voted to leave


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## MRichard

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Im a SR Mason and never heard that used, it always been Bro, Honored Bro and Illustrious Bro.
> 
> As for the "federal" employees loosing their clearance or job for being a witness for the prosecution in a federal case is hog wash.  Being a whistle blower in a pvt group wont cost you ur job or clearance
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



Frankly, I think it is a little more complicated than that. You are talking about fraud and cover ups here. We probably have no idea what really happened other than a Facebook group created by Slaughter or someone claiming to be Slaughter that has a lot of documents in it.


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## mm357

Have you all heard of THE AMERICAN NATIONAL SUPREME COUNCIL can someone enlighten me on it


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## Ripcord22A

there are only 2 legit "supreme" councils for the AASR, the AASR-SJ and the AASR-NMJ.  you also have those same councils for the PHA side as well I do believe, If I am wrong please someone correct me,


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## BullDozer Harrell

PM Kris Jackson said:


> No my brother, it's not actually cleared up. But please allow me to explain. They once were all a band of friends, referring to a particular small groups of GMs. GM Slaughter-LA considered GM Vaughn-TN as a mentor of sorts, he even fondly referred to him as "the dean of GMs". It's important to mention that this "small group" were also the top ranking officers of the USC-SJPHA. Well, a few years ago, as a part of a succession plan, discussion began concerning GM Slaughter taking the seat of SGC after SGC Vaughn stepped down since the brother who was #2 was unable to (the reason I forget). In preparation for this transition GM Slaughter (who is a CPA by trade) after hearing rumors amongst the SC, requested an audit of the books for fear that he might inherit a volatile situation. The audit initially found that $1.2 million was unaccounted for, and further investigation raised the total closer to $3 million. Not only feeling betrayed, but also remaining mindful of his duties as a GM he chose to act not only in the best interest of the USC-SJ PHA and it's membership, but also to protect the brothers of his jurisdiction by not exposing our GL to the intense scrutiny that was being felt by the SC from the IRS and the FBI. After the situation was exposed, elections were held, and the brothers involved still opted to keep SGC Vaughn in leadership, GM Slaughter realized the problem went further than SGC Vaughn and the Tech who stole $100,000+ from the USC paypal account. He then removed recognition from the USC-SJ PHA ONLY, and in conjunction with other jurisdictions who felt the same way, decided to start a new USC-SJ (NOT NATIONAL) in Washington D.C. (NOT DETROIT). Then GM Vaughn and the others involved decided to retaliate by removing recognition from LA on the Blue Lodge level, although this issue has nothing to do with the Blue Lodge. The reason they originally gave was, to sum it up, "he was unmasonic because he told on us and brothers don't tell on each other". Well, masonically I must admit that on SOME levels I agree. But I must also add that 1st, I have a little brother and YES brothers DO tell on each other; 2nd what is actually unmasonic is being entrusted with the highest office in a branch of masonry and dishonoring that position by stealing from the brotherhood. The guy who sticks up for the brotherhood and exposes the theft, even at the risk of being ostracized, he is the hero not the villain.
> 
> As far as the Virgin Islands thing, what happened with that was the brothers of the islands had everything the masonically needed to start their own GL. They went to FL for their blessing and assistance, because that's who they were under, only to be basically held hostage. The only reasons I've been able to get from anyone who would actually know is it was because the GM of FL wasn't quite ready to lose the islands for whatever reasons ($$ in my opinion). After GM Slaughter received a request to help them (VI) and decided to oblige, the GM of FL decided to jump on the "no LA" bandwagon. I hope I didn't leave anything out.


What you're leaving out of the Virgin Islands controversy is a very central character named A.K. Wilkins. 
There was deals made under the table and promises fulfilled at the expense of legality. 
These findings of facts were brought to the table and examined by PH Grand Masters at the conference.
After reviewing and debating the information, it was natural that they would declare the MWPHGL of the Virgin Islands an illegally formed Grand Lodge jurisdiction.



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## mrpierce17




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## MasonicAdept

The National Supreme Council AASRFM, Inc. actually began in New York.
When Hugo DeBulow came to New York in 1862, he conferred the 33rd on a group Black men who were members of the United Grand Lodge of New York (1848), which is now the MWPHGL of New York.

The name of the Supreme Council then was the Supreme Council of the United States of America. It was established officially in 1864.

Supreme Council merged in 1897-8 with the National Compact to form the National Supreme Council AASRFM under Dorsey Seville, a Suspended Mason from the GL of the District of Columbia. The group operating as the National Compact at this time were themselves clandestine, and gave Dorsey Seville a charter to operate in D.C. under a Grand Lodge called, "Eureka GL". 

In 1897, The clandestine group operating as the National Grand Lodge (which dissolved in 1879) decided to add a Supreme Council to that body and tasked Dorsey Seville to coordinate the effort. With the Supreme Council of the USA (New York) struggling, they were invited by Seville to form a new Supreme Council and did so in 1898. Dr. Peter Ray (founding member of the Supreme Council of the USA and third SGC) severed ties with the Supreme Council when he found that, then SGC, A. B. Allen had agreed to merge the Supreme Council with the pseudo-National Compact body, and took all of the documentation with him. But nevertheless the body was formed and called the National Supreme Council.

In 1948, the half of the National Supreme Council that were in allegiance to the old Supreme Council in New York (SC of the USA) severed ties with the National Supreme Council and moved to Detroit, MI under the name of the National Supreme Council AASRFM, Inc.

I have a lot of the old documents from the original Supreme Council of the United State of America, originally formed by Hugo DeBulow in 1864.


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## Ripcord22A

Thats interesting that bogus freemasonry, trying to pass its self off as legitimate goes back over 150yrs.....

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## Scott A McGregor

MasonicAdept said:


> The National Supreme Council AASRFM, Inc. actually began in New York.
> When Hugo DeBulow came to New York in 1862, he conferred the 33rd on a group Black men who were members of the United Grand Lodge of New York (1848), which is now the MWPHGL of New York.
> 
> The name of the Supreme Council then was the Supreme Council of the United States of America. It was established officially in 1864.
> 
> Supreme Council merged in 1897-8 with the National Compact to form the National Supreme Council AASRFM under Dorsey Seville, a Suspended Mason from the GL of the District of Columbia. The group operating as the National Compact at this time were themselves clandestine, and gave Dorsey Seville a charter to operate in D.C. under a Grand Lodge called, "Eureka GL".
> 
> In 1897, The clandestine group operating as the National Grand Lodge (which dissolved in 1879) decided to add a Supreme Council to that body and tasked Dorsey Seville to coordinate the effort. With the Supreme Council of the USA (New York) struggling, they were invited by Seville to form a new Supreme Council and did so in 1898. Dr. Peter Ray (founding member of the Supreme Council of the USA and third SGC) severed ties with the Supreme Council when he found that, then SGC, A. B. Allen had agreed to merge the Supreme Council with the pseudo-National Compact body, and took all of the documentation with him. But nevertheless the body was formed and called the National Supreme Council.
> 
> In 1948, the half of the National Supreme Council that were in allegiance to the old Supreme Council in New York (SC of the USA) severed ties with the National Supreme Council and moved to Detroit, MI under the name of the National Supreme Council AASRFM, Inc.
> 
> I have a lot of the old documents from the original Supreme Council of the United State of America, originally formed by Hugo DeBulow in 1864.


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## Scott A McGregor

MasonicAdept said:


> The National Supreme Council AASRFM, Inc. actually began in New York.
> When Hugo DeBulow came to New York in 1862, he conferred the 33rd on a group Black men who were members of the United Grand Lodge of New York (1848), which is now the MWPHGL of New York.
> 
> The name of the Supreme Council then was the Supreme Council of the United States of America. It was established officially in 1864.
> 
> Supreme Council merged in 1897-8 with the National Compact to form the National Supreme Council AASRFM under Dorsey Seville, a Suspended Mason from the GL of the District of Columbia. The group operating as the National Compact at this time were themselves clandestine, and gave Dorsey Seville a charter to operate in D.C. under a Grand Lodge called, "Eureka GL".
> 
> In 1897, The clandestine group operating as the National Grand Lodge (which dissolved in 1879) decided to add a Supreme Council to that body and tasked Dorsey Seville to coordinate the effort. With the Supreme Council of the USA (New York) struggling, they were invited by Seville to form a new Supreme Council and did so in 1898. Dr. Peter Ray (founding member of the Supreme Council of the USA and third SGC) severed ties with the Supreme Council when he found that, then SGC, A. B. Allen had agreed to merge the Supreme Council with the pseudo-National Compact body, and took all of the documentation with him. But nevertheless the body was formed and called the National Supreme Council.
> 
> In 1948, the half of the National Supreme Council that were in allegiance to the old Supreme Council in New York (SC of the USA) severed ties with the National Supreme Council and moved to Detroit, MI under the name of the National Supreme Council AASRFM, Inc.
> 
> I have a lot of the old documents from the original Supreme Council of the United State of America, originally formed by Hugo DeBulow in 1864.


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## Mindovermatter Ace

Shahkem said:


> Greetings Brethren. I was initiated, passed and raised in a Masonic organization known as the National Supreme Council of A.A.S.R headquartered in Detroit. I was initially petitioning for PHA membership, but it seemed like they were dragging their feet. So I came across some Scottish Rite Brothers that were younger and had a much more voracious  appetite than the PHA Brethren so I asked the WM. of the Scottish Rite Lodge to show me their charter to work sand he did, so I thought they were regular.
> 
> This Organization doesn't have a Grand Lodge, they claim affiliation with the Supreme Council from France through a brother named Baron Auguste  hugo debulow. But after some studying I start to question the legit nature of this organization. I'm seriously considering going over to PHA.  Does anybody here known anything about this organization. Is it considered irregular or clandestine
> 
> Thank you in advance!
> 
> 
> 
> The self-proclaimed National Supreme Council is not the National Supreme Council it claims to be. It claims to have been established by Baron Auguste Hugo de Bulow, in 1864. The Baron was as SGIG of the Supreme Council of France (Grand Orient of France) at Paris, and also representative of the Supreme Council for the United States of America (which claimed Cerneau lineage because this body ceased in 1836). While it is true that the Baron formed a Supreme Council of his own in the United States, it was not lawful nor was it recognized by anyone. A SGIG cannot create a Supreme Council in a territory of another Supreme Council. In the end, his work was rejected by the French and the Americans, and rightfully so because it defied the laws. Baron Auguste Hugo de Bulow's clandestine supreme council merged with a "Compact USC" which formed the National Supreme Council in 1898 with Dorsey Seville (an expelled Prince Hall Mason) as it's first SGC. Almost 75 years later, This body split to form the body you requested membership to. They think that they actually have lineage to the first one but they don't. Freemasonry doesn't sanction a splinter cell.


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## Mindovermatter Ace

Shahkem said:


> Greetings Brethren. I was initiated, passed and raised in a Masonic organization known as the National Supreme Council of A.A.S.R headquartered in Detroit. I was initially petitioning for PHA membership, but it seemed like they were dragging their feet. So I came across some Scottish Rite Brothers that were younger and had a much more voracious appetite than the PHA Brethren so I asked the WM. of the Scottish Rite Lodge to show me their charter to work sand he did, so I thought they were regular.
> 
> This Organization doesn't have a Grand Lodge, they claim affiliation with the Supreme Council from France through a brother named Baron Auguste  Hugo Debulow. But after some studying, I start to question the legit nature of this organization. I'm seriously considering going over to PHA.  Does anybody here know anything about this organization? Is it considered irregular or clandestine
> 
> Thank you in advance!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect HD



The National Supreme Council is only telling the story in part:

The work of Baron Auguste Hugo Debulow in regards to the formation of the National Supreme Council is not recognized by the Supreme Council of France nor the Supreme Council of France for the Grand Orient of France. Under Masonic law, a Supreme Council cannot be formed where one is active. Moreover, there was a dispute about the work in France. As a result, the National Supreme Council is *NOT* recognized as a legitimate body by _any_ Supreme Council of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite in the world.


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## Warrior1256

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> As a result, the National Supreme Council is *NOT* recognized as a legitimate body by _any_ Supreme Council of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite in the world.


This is a very interesting subject!


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## Bro. T. Quattlebaum

Note:

"Freemasonry is advancement towards the Light, on all the line of progress, moral, intellectual, and spiritual..." (R.W. Master. April 1861 in New Orleans, Louisiana. Transaction of the Supreme Council (1861), Appendix A, pp.36-47).

It remains amazing to me, how much time we loose due to a our closed-minds, when we are intended to strive towards perfection.  There has never been only two Supreme Councils unless, we are discussing a early period of self-identification after the Revolutionary.  The impact of the Grand Lodge of England and France should be considered in our thinking.  Than, there's the Northern/Southern Jurisdictions... may have a little to do with the Civil War and War of 1812... 

"Freemasonry is essentially a philanthropic institution, philosophical, progressive and has  for its object to search for Truth..."  Even, if we are firm in our beliefs, should we continue to seek enlightenment or do we die...  I'm certain we are all familiar with the Scottish Rite Ritual - Monitor & Guide; we know there are two pathways as well as two organizational structure to a single end-state in America.  The Fraternity does not still serve the Queen or any Duke ..., I seek the smallest of things such as the _Yod,_ a mere dot and a divine point of energy ... is applied to form all other letters, and since God uses the letter as the building blocks of creation - _Yod_ indicates God's omnipresence!  It is a starting point ... so where were you first made and where can you now, be found? We must live Freemasonry as we know it and able to learn it - even mathematics have changed!   P.S., I understand the bodies are interconnected, but we must be able to navigate between the Fraternity and the Incorporation both are govern, however, one claims mutual tolerance, respect for other and for itself, and absolute freedom of conscience; and the other by State/Federal Law.

Sincerely and Fraternally,
/s/
Bro. T. Quattlebaum


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## thenewyorker83

National Supreme Council, Imperial Supreme Council and many others are Clandestine and ARE not recognized. These groups harp on the their incorporation (becoming incorporated) as a method to authenticate their existence, having so-called international jurisdiction. I don’t doubt that all groups like this have bad intentions, but the basis of which they come/came into existence is not correct and defies Masonic Law.


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## Glen Cook

Bro. T. Quattlebaum said:


> Note:
> 
> "Freemasonry is advancement towards the Light, on all the line of progress, moral, intellectual, and spiritual..." (R.W. Master. April 1861 in New Orleans, Louisiana. Transaction of the Supreme Council (1861), Appendix A, pp.36-47).
> 
> It remains amazing to me, how much time we loose due to a our closed-minds, when we are intended to strive towards perfection.  There has never been only two Supreme Councils unless, we are discussing a early period of self-identification after the Revolutionary.  The impact of the Grand Lodge of England and France should be considered in our thinking.  Than, there's the Northern/Southern Jurisdictions... may have a little to do with the Civil War and War of 1812...
> 
> "Freemasonry is essentially a philanthropic institution, philosophical, progressive and has  for its object to search for Truth..."  Even, if we are firm in our beliefs, should we continue to seek enlightenment or do we die...  I'm certain we are all familiar with the Scottish Rite Ritual - Monitor & Guide; we know there are two pathways as well as two organizational structure to a single end-state in America.  The Fraternity does not still serve the Queen or any Duke ..., I seek the smallest of things such as the _Yod,_ a mere dot and a divine point of energy ... is applied to form all other letters, and since God uses the letter as the building blocks of creation - _Yod_ indicates God's omnipresence!  It is a starting point ... so where were you first made and where can you now, be found? We must live Freemasonry as we know it and able to learn it - even mathematics have changed!   P.S., I understand the bodies are interconnected, but we must be able to navigate between the Fraternity and the Incorporation both are govern, however, one claims mutual tolerance, respect for other and for itself, and absolute freedom of conscience; and the other by State/Federal Law.
> 
> Sincerely and Fraternally,
> /s/
> Bro. T. Quattlebaum


I think perhaps some words have been left out.  In any case, 

I would be curious what you think a Grand Lodge of England (you don’t state which one, which is important given the era you indicate) would have to do with this, or GLdF rather than GOF. 

Similarly, what does the war of 1812 have to do with the subject?  

Two pathways to a single end-state in America?


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## bupton52

It’s interesting to read this because a gentleman that appears to be a member of this group in Houston just submitted a request to join the Texas Freemasonry Facebook group. I didn’t even know this existed in Texas. 


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