# Potential reasons one might be blackballed



## RobertTheBruce (Dec 31, 2015)

Like it states in the topic, I am wondering if I do petition what are some reasons I might be turned away?


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## JJones (Dec 31, 2015)

Typically a petition will ask several questions which need to be answered correctly in order to be accepted such as those pertaining to a faith in deity, maims, defects, sanity, and proper age.

Those are the more common reasons a man might not be accepted, but keep in mind that when it comes time for the lodge to vote, nobody has to justify why they voted for or against anyone's acceptance.

When in doubt, ask someone from the lodge you're petitioning, they will know better than anyone here.


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## dfreybur (Jan 1, 2016)

Candidates who are turned away before they come to vote, are told the reasons why they were turned down.  They answered no to one of the crucial questions, it came up that their wife objects, they are currently homeless.  Being turned away at that stage technically isn't the same as being rejected at the time of the ballot.

Every candidate must face a ballot.  The lodge conducts a secret ballot.  One negative and you are rejected.  In some jurisdictions it takes 2 or 3 negatives rather than one.  Few are rejected at this point, but none who are rejected at this point are ever told why.  In fact it is forbidden to ask any brother how he balloted or why.  It is forbidden to tell anyone how you balloted or why.  The time of the ballot is the time when a lodge member may protect his lodge without ever saying why.

Of course there is potential for abuse at the time of the ballot.  It is possible for a brother to reject a candidate for petty reasons.  Fortunately rejections are rare.  It is possible for a brother to kill a lodge by attrition for undisclosed reasons by rejecting every candidate.  Fortunately that is even more rare.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 5, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> In fact it is forbidden to ask any brother how he balloted or why. It is forbidden to tell anyone how you balloted or why.


When a brand new EA I asked my mentor how he had voted on a certain ballot. He very firmly instructed me in the above, Lol.


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## Joe Ellis (Mar 8, 2016)

RobertTheBruce said:


> Like it states in the topic, I am wondering if I do petition what are some reasons I might be turned away?



Hi Robert ,

Best advice is that you visit the lodge and meet the members on several occasions. No lodge would blackball you if it is a good lodge, but would rather say that it is best to seek membership at another lodge.  Blackballing someone, in my eyes, is not Masonic. By doing so could severely restrict your access to a lodge.

There are many reasons why someone is blackballed, but do not concern yourself with the reasons. Be genuine, polite and nice and you will be fine.

Good luck.

Joe Ellis, Past Master
England


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 8, 2016)

Joe Ellis said:


> There are many reasons why someone is blackballed, but do not concern yourself with the reasons. Be genuine, polite and nice and you will be fine.


A friend of 25 years recommended me for membership and this is exactly what he told me.


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## MarkR (Mar 9, 2016)

Joe Ellis said:


> Blackballing someone, in my eyes, is not Masonic. By doing so could severely restrict your access to a lodge.


I must disagree.  I can think of any number of reasons why a Mason might not want a man in his lodge, but be unwilling to reveal those reasons because they wish to protect someone's privacy.  There's a reason we have a secret (in most states) ballot.


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## Joe Ellis (Mar 9, 2016)

MarkR said:


> I must disagree.  I can think of any number of reasons why a Mason might not want a man in his lodge, but be unwilling to reveal those reasons because they wish to protect someone's privacy.  There's a reason we have a secret (in most states) ballot.



I don't believe this to be Masonic. Being polite and informing the person that someone has raised an objection, is not only ethical, it is good Masonic practice.


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## MarkR (Mar 9, 2016)

What if the person who has the objection doesn't wish to share the reason with anyone?  What if the petitioner had sexually assaulted your sister or daughter; he doesn't know that you know, because she chose not to file any charges, and has asked you to never tell anyone?  Would you drop the black ball, or would you violate the confidence of your sister/daughter?  Or would you let him be voted in and demit?


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## Joe Ellis (Mar 9, 2016)

MarkR said:


> What if the person who has the objection doesn't wish to share the reason with anyone?  What if the petitioner had sexually assaulted your sister or daughter; he doesn't know that you know, because she chose not to file any charges, and has asked you to never tell anyone?  Would you drop the black ball, or would you violate the confidence of your sister/daughter?  Or would you let him be voted in and demit?



Oh dear...!


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## Glen Cook (Mar 9, 2016)

Joe Ellis said:


> I don't believe this to be Masonic. Being polite and informing the person that someone has raised an objection, is not only ethical, it is good Masonic practice.


It is a Masonic offense to disclose your vote in some jurisdictions. Further, in some jurisdictions the petition cannot be withdrawn and must be ballotted upon.


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## Glen Cook (Mar 9, 2016)

Joe Ellis said:


> Hi Robert ,
> 
> Best advice is that you visit the lodge and meet the members on several occasions. No lodge would blackball you if it is a good lodge, but would rather say that it is best to seek membership at another lodge.  Blackballing someone, in my eyes, is not Masonic. By doing so could severely restrict your access to a lodge.
> 
> ...


In UGLE, a black ball is indeed unusual.  However, to broadly declare it is unmasonic in the US is simply incorrect.  As you will learn here, there is a diversity of practice in the world and we cannot take the narrow view of our own obedience.

In addition to the Masonic jurisprudence issues I noted above, there are times I may have information because of my profession or my role in the fraternity which I am prohibited from disclosing. To protect the fraternity, which is also my duty, I must cast the negative ballot


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## Glen Cook (Mar 9, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> When a brand new EA I asked my mentor how he had voted on a certain ballot. He very firmly instructed me in the above, Lol.


I would be curious if any US State GL allows one to disclose his ballot.


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## BroBook (Mar 9, 2016)

MWUGL of Fl, PHA, no.


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## Bill Lins (Mar 9, 2016)

Joe Ellis said:


> I don't believe this to be Masonic. Being polite and informing the person that someone has raised an objection, is not only ethical, it is good Masonic practice.


I totally disagree. Not every man is Masonic material. If I consider a petitioner to be unworthy of our Fraternity, I'll drop a blackball on him without a second thought. If I believe him to be a good man but not fit the culture of my Lodge, I'll quietly advise him to petition elsewhere.


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## Joe Ellis (Mar 9, 2016)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> I totally disagree. Not every man is Masonic material. If I consider a petitioner to be unworthy of our Fraternity, I'll drop a blackball on him without a second thought. If I believe him to be a good man but not fit the culture of my Lodge, I'll quietly advise him to petition elsewhere.



My god...really?


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## Bill Lins (Mar 9, 2016)

Yes, REALLY.


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## Glen Cook (Mar 9, 2016)

Joe Ellis said:


> My g-d...really?


Yes, really. Well, maybe a second thought would be given. But I have done so and would do so.  

I would also invite your attention to the charge of the first degree, regarding never mentioning His name but with that awe and reverence which are due from the creature to the Creator.


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## Joe Ellis (Mar 10, 2016)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Yes, REALLY.



Oh dear...!


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## MarkR (Mar 10, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> I would be curious if any US State GL allows one to disclose his ballot.


In Wisconsin, if there is a black ball, the Worshipful Master informs the lodge that the brother who cast the black ball has 48 hours to tell him the reason for the black ball.  If no one comes forward, the ballot is declared clear.  If a reason is given to the Master, it is forwarded to the Grand Master, who determines if the reason is within the rules of the Grand Lodge of Wisconsin.  If so, the black ball is upheld, if not, the petition is accepted.

I was so skeptical when I first heard this, that I checked it myself, and there it was, in the Wisconsin Masonic Code, clear as day.


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## Joe Ellis (Mar 10, 2016)

MarkR said:


> In Wisconsin, if there is a black ball, the Worshipful Master informs the lodge that the brother who cast the black ball has 48 hours to tell him the reason for the black ball.  If no one comes forward, the ballot is declared clear.  If a reason is given to the Master, it is forwarded to the Grand Master, who determines if the reason is within the rules of the Grand Lodge of Wisconsin.  If so, the black ball is upheld, if not, the petition is accepted.
> 
> I was so skeptical when I first heard this, that I checked it myself, and there it was, in the Wisconsin Masonic Code, clear as day.



What an excellent way forward Mark. I can see this method being highly desirable in England


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## MarkR (Mar 10, 2016)

But here in Minnesota, the penalty for disclosing your ballot, or expressing disagreement with the outcome of a ballot, is "expulsion, and no other."


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## MarkR (Mar 10, 2016)

Joe Ellis said:


> What an excellent way forward Mark. I can see this method highly desirable in England


Well, it's certainly not a secret ballot though, is it?


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## MarkR (Mar 10, 2016)

Actually, I pretty strongly disagree with the Wisconsin method, for the reason I gave earlier.  If you have knowledge that a person should be disqualified, for reasons you are not free to reveal, you are left with the decision to violate the confidence you hold or allow someone unsuited to become a Mason.

I have on several occasions been retained as an expert witness.  In that capacity, I've been allowed to review documents, depositions, videos, audio recordings, etc., with strict instructions from a judge that I was not to reveal anything therein.  What if I knew something disqualifying about a petitioner as a result of that professional work?  Revealing it would not only be unethical, but would expose me to contempt of court penalties.  A secret ballot black ball, with no one knowing who dropped it or why, would not.  The same would apply to attorney/client privilege or to physician/patient confidentiality.


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## Joe Ellis (Mar 10, 2016)

MarkR said:


> Actually, I pretty strongly disagree with the Wisconsin method, for the reason I gave earlier.  If you have knowledge that a person should be disqualified, for reasons you are not free to reveal, you are left with the decision to violate the confidence you hold or allow someone unsuited to become a Mason.
> 
> I have on several occasions been retained as an expert witness.  In that capacity, I've been allowed to review documents, depositions, videos, audio recordings, etc., with strict instructions from a judge that I was not to reveal anything therein.  What if I knew something disqualifying about a petitioner as a result of that professional work?  Revealing it would not only be unethical, but would expose me to contempt of court penalties.  A secret ballot black ball, with no one knowing who dropped it or why, would not.  The same would apply to attorney/client privilege or to physician/patient confidentiality.



I still love the Wisconsin method, demonstrates how they have moved forward with the times, but of course, respect your views


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## Glen Cook (Mar 10, 2016)

Joe Ellis said:


> Oh dear...!


thanks


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## Glen Cook (Mar 10, 2016)

Joe Ellis said:


> What an excellent way forward Mark. I can see this method being highly desirable in England


You say "in England", but to be clear, you are not a member of UGLE, correct?


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## dfreybur (Mar 10, 2016)

MarkR said:


> In Wisconsin, if there is a black ball, the Worshipful Master informs the lodge that the brother who cast the black ball has 48 hours to tell him the reason for the black ball.  If no one comes forward, the ballot is declared clear.  If a reason is given to the Master, it is forwarded to the Grand Master, who determines if the reason is within the rules of the Grand Lodge of Wisconsin.  If so, the black ball is upheld, if not, the petition is accepted.
> 
> I was so skeptical when I first heard this, that I checked it myself, and there it was, in the Wisconsin Masonic Code, clear as day.



In all three of my jurisdictions the secrecy of the ballot is sacrosanct so your vote can not be divulged under any circumstances.  This is considered a landmark.

I know that each jurisdiction has its own landmarks but I never considered that this one might be missing from the list of some jurisdictions.



Bill_Lins77488 said:


> I totally disagree. Not every man is Masonic material. If I consider a petitioner to be unworthy of our Fraternity, I'll drop a blackball on him without a second thought. If I believe him to be a good man but not fit the culture of my Lodge, I'll quietly advise him to petition elsewhere.



I notice a subtle change in topic half way into Bro Bill's post.  He would drop a cube on a man not qualified.  He would point a man without a cultural fit to another lodge.

When I relocate I attend more than one local lodge and I ask around about lodge cultures.  I chose carefully which lodge I affiliate with.  When I was about to petition I asked friends I knew to be Masons if the one I was considering would be a good match for me and they agreed it would be.

A candidate will not always have the resources to be able to ask that question and get that advice.  Having a member say that Lodge X would be a good cultural fit for me to petition is a service to the candidate and a service to Masonry.

But what of candidates who petition anyways?  I think we've all seen brothers take their degrees, learn they aren't a good cultural fit and transfer to another lodge.  I know we've all seen brothers take their degrees, learn they aren't a good cultural fit and leave Masonry.  Much better to search for a cultural fit up front.

When I first read Bro Bill's statement I leaned back and questioned it.  Then I read more carefully and noticed the change of subject.


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## Bill Lins (Mar 10, 2016)

_Bro. Ellis posted "No lodge would blackball you if it is a good lodge, but would rather say that it is best to seek membership at another lodge. Blackballing someone, in my eyes, is not Masonic."_

Hence the change of subject. As I read his statement, he would pass an unworthy candidate off on some other Lodge. As I see it, we ALL have the responsibility to guard the West Gate & protect the entire Fraternity, not just our individual Lodges.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 11, 2016)

MarkR said:


> I must disagree.  I can think of any number of reasons why a Mason might not want a man in his lodge, but be unwilling to reveal those reasons because they wish to protect someone's privacy.  There's a reason we have a secret (in most states) ballot.


Absolutely.


Glen Cook said:


> It is a Masonic offense to disclose your vote in some jurisdictions. Further, in some jurisdictions the petition cannot be withdrawn and must be ballotted upon.


Same here in Kentucky.


Glen Cook said:


> In UGLE, a black ball is indeed unusual. However, to broadly declare it is unmasonic in the US is simply incorrect.


Agreed.


Glen Cook said:


> In addition to the Masonic jurisprudence issues I noted above, there are times I may have information because of my profession or my role in the fraternity which I am prohibited from disclosing. To protect the fraternity, which is also my duty, I must cast the negative ballot


Excellent example.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 11, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> In all three of my jurisdictions the secrecy of the ballot is sacrosanct so your vote can not be divulged under any circumstances. This is considered a landmark.


Same here. 


Bill_Lins77488 said:


> As I see it, we ALL have the responsibility to guard the West Gate & protect the entire Fraternity, not just our individual Lodges.


Totally agree!


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## JJones (Mar 11, 2016)

MarkR said:


> In Wisconsin, if there is a black ball, the Worshipful Master informs the lodge that the brother who cast the black ball has 48 hours to tell him the reason for the black ball.  If no one comes forward, the ballot is declared clear.  If a reason is given to the Master, it is forwarded to the Grand Master, who determines if the reason is within the rules of the Grand Lodge of Wisconsin.  If so, the black ball is upheld, if not, the petition is accepted.
> 
> I was so skeptical when I first heard this, that I checked it myself, and there it was, in the Wisconsin Masonic Code, clear as day.



Out of curiosity, how many black balls are required to reject a candidate in WI?

Needing to justify yourself to anyone for blackballing a candidate sounds terrible and I'm glad we don't have this in Texas.


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## MarkR (Mar 12, 2016)

JJones said:


> Out of curiosity, how many black balls are required to reject a candidate in WI?


Just one, if it's upheld by the Grand Master.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 12, 2016)

JJones said:


> Needing to justify yourself to anyone for blackballing a candidate sounds terrible and I'm glad we don't have this in Texas.


Very much agree brother. Glad that we don't have this in Kentucky.


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## Bill Lins (Mar 12, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> You say "in England", but to be clear, you are not a member of UGLE, correct?


For those who have not checked him out, here are the links to his "Lodge" & "Grand Lodge":  http://www.grandlodge.org.uk/Lodge02.html  &  http://www.grandlodge.org.uk/index.htm


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 12, 2016)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> For those who have not checked him out, here are the links to his "Lodge" & "Grand Lodge":  http://www.grandlodge.org.uk/Lodge02.html  &  http://www.grandlodge.org.uk/index.htm


Another crock!


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## Ripcord22A (Mar 12, 2016)

He was a real mason at one point.  He resigned due to a conflict of interests. He was actually a master of a lodge in UGLE

Sent from my LG-D415 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


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## The Traveling Man (Mar 13, 2016)

RobertTheBruce said:


> Like it states in the topic, I am wondering if I do petition what are some reasons I might be turned away?



You received some good information from the Brothers who commented so no need for me to go into that. But I was wondering, given that your post was several months ago, what did you decide to do??


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## Warrior1256 (Apr 5, 2016)

MarkR said:


> Well, it's certainly not a secret ballot though, is it?


Yeah, really isn't. I would not like this at all!


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