# Knights of Columbus



## gortex6 (Dec 26, 2008)

*Other Fraternities*

Anyone notice the organizational simularities between the knights of Columbus and masonry?  They have three degrees that are simular to blue lodge and one side degree that resembles York Rite commandery.  They even have an organization called Daughters of Isabella that are simular to OES and Order of Alhambra that mirrors the Shrine- fez and parade floats included.  I understand that they were created by the catholics to allow their church members to take part in fraternity as most others were banned at the time by papal decree, but what strikes my curiousity even more is their choice of namesake.  Some historians believe Christopher Columbus was in fact a proto-templar; his ships resemble as such.

Or what about the Odd Fellows?  Their origins are traced back to the early 18th century and around the same time that speculative masonry came about.  They also have three degrees simular to the blue lodge and four side degrees closely mimicking the York Rite, a ladies auxiliary of Rebeccas, an organization called the Order of Samaritans that is mirrored after the Shrine.  Notice the simularities in symbolism!  I hear there were quite a few masons also had membership with the Odd Fellows; Albert Pike was one of them.


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## Mason296 (Dec 26, 2008)

Anyone familiar with the Knights of Honor? I saw that on a grave stone north of Kountze. From what I understand there used to be a lot of these fraternal organizations.


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## rhitland (Dec 26, 2008)

it takes all kinds to keep the beutiful variety this world has, I wonder though if most of these organization where created by a unified underlying super secrect group with all the similarities they have and all of them teaching the exact same thing at the core of their lessons it seems possiable or could it be the Divine truth manifesting itself in diffrent ways for all the diffrent people of the world and their diffrent needs to keep them on the path of good and righteousness.


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## gortex6 (Dec 26, 2008)

*Another one*

United Order of Mechanics

Order of United American Mechanics

Jr Order of United American Mechanics


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## jwardl (Dec 26, 2008)

gortex6 said:


> Anyone notice the organizational simularities between the knights of Columbus and masonry? They have three degrees that are simular to blue lodge and one side degree that resembles York Rite commandery. They even have an organization called Daughters of Isabella that are simular to OES and Order of Alhambra that mirrors the Shrine- fez and parade floats included. I understand that they were created by the catholics to allow their church members to take part in fraternity as most others were banned at the time by papal decree, but what strikes my curiousity even more is their choice of namesake. Some historians believe Christopher Columbus was in fact a proto-templar; his ships resemble as such.
> 
> Or what about the Odd Fellows? Their origins are traced back to the early 18th century and around the same time that speculative masonry came about. They also have three degrees simular to the blue lodge and four side degrees closely mimicking the York Rite, a ladies auxiliary of Rebeccas, an organization called the Order of Samaritans that is mirrored after the Shrine. Notice the simularities in symbolism! I hear there were quite a few masons also had membership with the Odd Fellows; Albert Pike was one of them.


 

While I have no personal inside knowledge of any of these other organizations, Freemasonry being the world's oldest fraternity, it makes sense that other fraternities would model themselves after us. No big surprise imho.


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## JEbeling (Dec 26, 2008)

understand the Knights of Columbus was started by a priest near Boston.. ! he either knew a lot about Masonary or was a mason.. ! when they started it was go give jobs to Italian american .. ! if you owned a business you were suppose to hire another..? they first started with the three degrees .. ! as I understand they are some-what like the masonary degrees but don't know for sure.. ! at a later date they added a fourth degree call the flag degree...? don't know much about their degrees... ! we have a couple of members of our lodge who are also members of the Knights of Columbus... ! but have never ask them about it..? I know they can not meet without a preist present..?


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## VirginiaPM (Dec 27, 2008)

*IOOF, K of C*

Albert Pike was a member if the International Order of Odd Fellows. Their current membership is less than a 1000 members in Texas.  Their ritual like many others borrowed from masonic sources. There were a number of exposures and other publications that made the ritual easy to obtain. See below

The Independent Order of Odd Fellows (I.O.O.F.) was founded either in 1819 or 1843 as a fraternal order in North America. Insurance was added later. The I.O.O.F. publishes the International Odd Fellow, monthly, and boasted 462,780 members in 1994.
The I.O.O.F. had its roots in Washington Lodge No. 1, organized on April 26, 1819, by an expatriate Englishman named Thomas Wildey and a few fellow Odd Fellows. Other lodges were founded in Boston in 1820 and Philadelphia in 1821. The Grand Lodge of Odd Fellows of the United States was organized in 1825 under the auspices of the Manchester Unity, though other Odd Fellows organizations also supplied members to the new order. This lodge, now the Sovereign Grand Lodge, oversees Canadian as well as American Grand Lodges.
The reasons for the split from the English parent(s) are by no means clear. It is possible that it was provoked by the 1843 chartering of a black lodge, the Grand United Order of Odd Fellows, under the jurisdiction of the old United or Union Order of Odd Fellows in England. Whatever the reason, the split came in 1843, and the I.O.O.F. became the American Branch of Odd Fellowship. As in England, it attracted many of the artisan class; in Californiaâ€™s gold country, for example, I.O.O.F. halls still stand as testimony to their attractions for miners who did not want to spend all their money in the saloons. By the time of Wildeyâ€™s death in 1861, there were over 200,000 members of the I.O.O.F. and during the Civil War the seats of secessionist members were kept vacant, and their dues were remitted.
The peak membership was probably in 1915, when there were 3,400,000 members; the Great Depression halved that number, and by the late 1970s membership had fallen below the quarter-million mark. Astonishingly, this figure had nearly doubled by 1994, though this number may reflect the inclusion of auxiliaries.
The lodges work four basic degrees (the number of degrees was stabilized in 1880), but there are three additional degrees in the Encampment Lodge, which maintains a pseudo-militarily uniformed marching society called the Patriarchs Militant. There is also one honorary degree.

Lodge degrees:
Initiatory
Friendship
Love
Truth
Patriarchs Militant degrees:
Patriarchal
Golden Rule
Royal Purple
Honorary degree:
Grand Decoration of Chivalry

All degrees are based on the customary rituals. William J. Whalen, in his Handbook of Secret Organizations, mentions skull and crossbones, scythe, scales, hourglass, coffin, and more. Many other Masonic symbols are also used, such as the all-seeing eye, the three links, and so forth. The rituals are rooted in deism, the postulant is required to believe in a Supreme Being who is described as the Creator and Preserver of the Universe, and the Bible is used, but according to a Sovereign Grand Lodge statement of 1963, â€œOdd Fellowship is not a religious institution.â€
Masonic influence and terminology are clearly evident. The first-degree ceremony, for example, involves putting the blindfolded candidate in chains and forming a mock funeral procession. When the blindfold is removed, the candidate is brought face to face with a skeleton illuminated by two torches and is invited to mediate upon death. Various instructions in the secrets of the order are given by different lodge worthies, the Chaplain offers prayers, and with his right hand on his left breast the candidate vows:
I, [Name], in the presence of the members of the Order here assembled, do solemnly promise that I will never communicate to anyone, unless directed to do so by a legal lodge, the signs, tokens or grips, the term, traveling or other passwords belonging to the Independent Order of Odd Fellows. Nor will I expose or lend any of the books or papers, relating to the records or secret works of the Order, to any person or persons, except one specifically authorized to receive them. That I will never reveal any private business which may be transacted in my presence in this or any other Lodge. I also promise that I will abide by the laws rules and regulations of this Lodge, of the Grand Lodge of Odd Fellows, of [the State] or any other Grand or working Lodge to which I may be attached.
I further promise that I will never wrong a Subordinate or Grand Lodge to the value of anything. Nor will I take part or share, directly or indirectly, in any illegal distribution of the funds or other property of the Lodge; but will, to the best of my ability, endeavor to prevent the same. Nor will I wrong a brother or see him wronged without apprising him of impending danger;. if in my power to do so. Should I be expelled or voluntarily leave the Order, I will consider this promise as binding out of it as in. To the faithful performance of all of which I pledge my sacred honor.
He then receives the passwords, the signs of distress and recognition, the grip, and so forth from the Noble Grand performing the initiation, and brief homilies from the Chaplain and Past Grand. He is told that the organization â€œstudiously avoids all affinity with systems of faith or sects,â€ while the â€œmoral precepts which govern us, and according to which we would have all men regulate their conduct, are the laws of God?â€
The essentially Judeo-Christian nature of the I.O.O.F. is made all the more clear in the next three degrees. The Degree of Fellowship is based on the story of the friendship of Jonathan and David. The Degree of Brotherly Love casts the candidate in the role of a traveler going from Jerusalem to Jericho and recites the parable of the Good Samaritan. The Degree of Truth uses a variety of Christian and Masonic symbols, and confers full membership of the lodge. The I.O.O.F. is not viewed with favor by the Roman Catholic Church, though Catholics may belong under the same sufferance as to the Knights of Pythias. They are traditionally denied the sacraments, but are not excommunicated. The order is similarly discouraged by a number of other churches.

The Odd Fellows propagate that all human beings, regardless of race, skin-color or position is society are brothers and sisters. In the past this was different. Until the mid-sixties of the 20th century, only white people could join the I.O.O.F. This was common use for societies in the United States, but orders outside the U.S., including the Netherlands adopted this policy. It has to be noted that the Dutch order had a compensation for the admission of members with an East-Indies background, due to the colonial history.
In the late fifties discussions about this 'full white blood clause' arose in the Netherlands. This case was also investigated by Dutch police and justice department. The Dutch order, together with some European orders brought this clause up for discussion. The Sovereign Grand Lodge abandoned this clause some years later officially, also due to the changed attitude towards racial segragation in the U.S.
Not just in the I.O.O.F. regulations was a racist tendency, also in one of the rituals. In the ritual of the second Encampment degree, the black race was typed as:  "in general they are barbarians and monsters in the practice of the most dire rapine". According to the Dutch Grand Secretary this ritual is no longer in use, but words as 'wilds' and 'heathens', in combination with the black race are still common in the American rituals. These words should be used in a different perspective.

Contrary to freemasonry, the Odd Fellows have an international coordinating organization, the Sovereign Grand Lodge. Under this SGL there are ten Grandlodges and about 100 jurisdictions. The Netherlands, together with Belgium have one Grand Lodge. Members  have joined local lodges. In the Dutch/Belgian jurisdiction there are about 60 lodges for men (late 1998: 2415 members) and 43 Rebekahlodges for women (late 1998: 1623 members). Besides these lodges there is also the Bond voor Jong Odde Fellow Clubs (League of Youth Odd Fellow Clubs), open for youngsters until 30. There are six of these clubs, with nearly 200 members.
There are seven encampments for men and since 2000 two for women in the Dutch jurisdiction. The Dutch Grand Lodge is since 2002 open for both men and women, which makes it theoretically possible that a women becomes Grandmaster of this Grand Lodge. The Dutch/Belgian jurisdiction is the first, and so far the only, that makes this possible.

K of C


I quote from a K of C web site, being a Catholic in good standing is obviously a prequisite.

The Knights of Columbus is a lay, Catholic, family, fraternal, service organization. Membership in the Knights of Columbus is open to all practical Catholic men in communion with the Holy See, age eighteen and above. The term practical Catholic implies that a person accepts and abides by the Commandments of God and the precepts and tenets of the Catholic church.

On October 2, 1881, Father Michael J. McGivney, 29-year-old assistant pastor at St. Mary's Church in New Haven, Connecticut, brought together a group of laymen with whom he discussed his dream for a Catholic fraternal benefit society. It not only would assist widows and orphans of deceased members through its life insurance program, but also would boost members' sense of pride in their Catholic religion, then frequently challenged in the anti-Catholic climate of 19th-century America. Father McGivney and his associates met several more times over the next several months to continue planning, and the new organization --the Knights of Columbus -- was formally launched in early February, 1882.

The officers of the new Catholic organization chose the name Knights of Columbus to honor Christopher Columbus, the Catholic discoverer of America. The word knights is also significant. We are ever mindful of the knightly qualities of spirituality and service to church that is embodied in the Knights of Columbus. The Order has evolved into a service organization with a strong family orientation. By the end of 1897 the Order was thoroughly rooted in New England, along the upper Atlantic seaboard and into Canada. Within the next eight years it branched out from Quebec to California, and from Florida to Washington. The Knights of Columbus remains headquartered in New Haven, but is now present with nearly 12000 Councils in the United States, Canada, the Philippines, Mexico, and several other countries. One of the primary missions of the Knights of Columbus is to support local charities. The Knights are a familiar sight around town during the annual Tootsie RollÂ® drive, which raises funds for charities that support the retarded and handicapped. We also support other fund raising drives to aid local parishes and charities. The Knights of Columbus promotes family values by providing numerous activities throughout the year that the entire family can participate in. Additionally, the organization provides an opportunity to ensure that a knight's family is provided for in the event of his death.


Here is short list of reasons you may want to join the Knights of Columbus:

An opportunity to become part of the world's largest Catholic fraternal organization.
A great way to make a personal contribution to the Church and community through charity and fraternity.
Active participation in Council activities serves as a "school of leadership" which will enable you to develop qualities that enhance your strengths and abilities.
A sense of "belonging" in an organization that shares your religious beliefs and brings to together like-minded men joined in a common cause.
Concerns for your family and your retirement years can be addressed by the Orders optional, low-cost life insurance.
A sense of pride, knowing that the Knights of Columbus is second to none in support of our Holy Father, our Bishops and Priests, and our fellow man.


Hierarchical Structure of the Knights of Columbus

All members of the Knights of Columbus belong to a particular Council, and any group of at least thirty men may apply to found a new Council in their area. The highest elected officer of each Council is the Grand Knight, who, with the other Council Officers , is elected by the membership each year. The Grand Knight appoints various Program Directors and Chairmen to run the Council's activities for the year. All Council activities except Membership activities, fall into one of five Program Areas, each with a Director. The five Directors of Church Activities, Community Activities, Council Activities, Family Activities and Youth Activities report to a General Programs Director, who in turn reports to the Grand Knight.
Several Councils within the same geographic area are grouped together in a District under the guidance of the District Deputy and his assistant, the District Warden. The District Officers are appointed by the State Deputy, the highest elected officer of the State Council . State Officers and Program Chairmen are analogous to those at the Council level and coordinate the activities of all the Councils throughout the State. Each Spring, the State Deputy hosts a Convention to elect officers and conduct other State business. Every Grand Knight and one elected Delegate represent every Council in the state at this Convention. The highest level within the Knights of Columbus is the Supreme Council , headed by the Supreme Knight. At the Supreme Convention each summer, State Deputies and Representatives from each State, Territory, or Country meet to conduct business concerning the international operation of the Order.


Ceremonials of the Order

There are four "Degrees" of Knighthood within the Knights of Columbus. The initiation ceremonies into each of these Degrees (the ceremonies themselves are also called "Degrees") are the only facets of the Order which are not made known to non-members. Each of the Degrees is designed to exemplify one of the four Principals of the Order: Charity, Unity, Fraternity and Patriotism. The Degrees must be taken in order.

Every applicant must take the First, or Membership, Degree before he can be considered a Member of the Knights of Columbus. Once he has taken his First Degree, he becomes a member in good standing in the Order. To reach full Knighthood, members must also take the Second and Third Degrees, and all members are strongly encouraged to do so. Members must have taken the Third degree to be elected to Council offices or to enter into the Fourth Degree. Once a man has been a member of the Knights of Columbus for a year and has taken his Third Degree, he is eligible to join a Fourth Degree Assembly. The Fourth Degree has its own structure separate from that of the Council. Fourth Degree Assemblies gain their membership from Third Degree members of several Councils within a larger geographic area. The most visible members of the Order are often the Fourth Degree Color Corps, with their colorful capes, chapeaux and sabers.


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## VirginiaPM (Dec 27, 2008)

Link for IOOF lectures by degree

http://www.robertleo.com/orphans/lecture0.htm


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## Nate C. (Dec 27, 2008)

Whoever created the rituals and ceremonies for the BPOE (Elks Lodge) knew a little something about the Blue Lodge as well.


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## Joey (Dec 28, 2008)

Nate C. said:


> Whoever created the rituals and ceremonies for the BPOE (Elks Lodge) knew a little something about the Blue Lodge as well.



That's correct..... The BPOE was created by several Masons from New York. That's why the initiation and obligations are so similar.


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## gortex6 (Dec 28, 2008)

VirginiaPM said:


> Albert Pike was a member if the International Order of Odd Fellows. Their current membership is less than a 1000 members in Texas.



Anson Jones was also a PGM of IOOF!  I might just check these guys out.


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## JTM (Dec 28, 2008)

the fact that they have an organization much like our OES just means they have curious women in their lives.

the pope: we must counter this masonry movement with a similar organization!
the men's wives: hey, what are ya'll doing in those secret meetings?
the men: ....
wives: nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag nag 

thus, the equivalent of the OES is born.

sorry, i couldn't resist.


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## cmoreno85tx (Dec 29, 2008)

JTM said:


> the fact that they have an organization much like our OES just means they have curious women in their lives.
> 
> the pope: we must counter this masonry movement with a similar organization!
> the men's wives: hey, what are ya'll doing in those secret meetings?
> ...



Heh. Nice


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## owls84 (Dec 30, 2008)

I wish I had something to contribute to this but I love hearing about the different organizations. I love to educate myself on these things so I am not ignorant to them.


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## gortex6 (Dec 30, 2008)

_"The first lodge of Odd Fellows in Texas was instituted in Houston, as Lone Star Odd Fellow Lodge Number One on July 25, 1838 by Jacob DeCordova, Grand Master of Louisiana."_

_"The Odd Fellows first met in Texas at Independence Hall, Washington on the Brazos. Its first Grand Master was Anson Jones, the last President of the Republic of Texas. "_

_"In early 1836 Jacob went to New Orleans, where he shipped cargoes of staples to Texas during its struggle for independence. At this time he served a term as Grand Master of the Odd Fellows. After the battle of San Jacinto he visited the Republic of Texas to install members in the Odd Fellows lodges, the first established outside the United States."_

Sounds like they may share just as much history in the Texas Revolution as we do.


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## jwardl (Dec 30, 2008)

gortex6 said:


> _"The first lodge of Odd Fellows in Texas was instituted in Houston, as Lone Star Odd Fellow Lodge Number One on July 25, 1838 by Jacob DeCordova, Grand Master of Louisiana."_
> 
> _"The Odd Fellows first met in Texas at Independence Hall, Washington on the Brazos. Its first Grand Master was Anson Jones, the last President of the Republic of Texas. "_
> 
> ...


 
If memory serves, wasn't Anson Jones a freemason as well?


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## RJS (Dec 30, 2008)

jwardl said:


> If memory serves, wasn't Anson Jones a freemason as well?



He was the first Grand Master.


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## jwardl (Dec 31, 2008)

RJS said:


> He was the first Grand Master.


 
I KNEW his name sounded familiar!


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## Curtis Wilson (Dec 31, 2008)

Before I begin, my Grandfather was a Sons of Herman.  I know they were active some time back, but really don't have a clue as to what they were.

I've been in discussion about Masons and Catholics in another forum _http://jesusbewith.us/?p=131 _Although not hostile about the subject, they are concerns that you can not be Catholic in good standing and a Mason.  In fact, according to them, we are committing mortal sin.  And not just Catholics but other religions are included in supporting documentation they provided by links in the forum, including Methodist, Anglican Church of England, and even Southern Baptist.  I've only checked the Baptist angle and found that at a Baptist Convention, there was a group that was trying to set strict guidelines AGAINST Freemasons.  Estimated 500,000 members that are Masons, or at least a significant portion of represenatives squelched the movement, and a compromise was worked out.  

To all of the Masons out there, I suggest you read up on how different religions work to drive out Masonry.  And by declining numbers, who can say it may not be having some effect.  I am a Catholic, converted from Baptist around 2000.  Those reasons are personal, but I've been a Mason since 1994 and not knowing issues surrounding the Catholics opposition to Masonry may have given me some issues back then, because at that time I wasn't a very active Mason.  Since that time I'm a Past Master and Secretary and very active in appendant bodies as well.  What I'm getting to is don't take this religion issue lightly or silently, even if it is not your religion that is in opposition.  Study the issue, ask questions, and respond with facts and information.  As Secretary, we have lost a few good men when it was discovered the Catholic view on Masonry.  Don't bash the religion either, especially in a forum, others doing their own private research may find it offensive and not being factual in response may dismiss the response.  By learning you can also address any religious topic that may come up from a candidate as well.  Remember, they to are men of God and I believe they think they are in the right, as misguided as we may think they are.


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## JEbeling (Dec 31, 2008)

well let me tell you a story about a friend of mine who was a Catholic, member of KC's and also a Mason.. !

He was installed as master of his lodge and his local priest, after church on sunday, told him he needed to get out and that he didn't see how he could come to church and be a member of that organization.. ! He went to Galveston and talked to the Bishop and told him, between all the businesses he owned that he gave a large sum of money to the church and KC's and if they didn't want him in the church just let him know and he would put that money to use somewhere else... ! The Bishop told him it was a fine organization and the he helped at the burn Hospital and was very proud of him working in a group that helps kids...? The Bishop talk to the Local priest and that was the last time it ever came up... ! and we had meetings at the lodge in this small town for builders awards, etc and ask the priest to give the prayer.. ! he was always there... ! whats the old saying about money talks and ..... ! walks... ?


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## gortex6 (Dec 31, 2008)

I asked a catholic eucharistic minister this and he checked with his monsenier; he said it will not result in excommunication or interdict.  

I think some of this ignorance is because they cunfuse us with the Grand Orient and their hidden war with the vatican.  This is America not Europe.  Keep in mind that they admit athiests and transvestites.


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## Curtis Wilson (Dec 31, 2008)

Previous posting is correct, you will not get excommunicated as a result of joining Freemasonry.  However in Catholic Canon Law, there is no distinction to European Masonry or American Masonry and at the Vatican II council held in 1968, the current Pope, then a Cardinal, wrote an interpretation of the Law in that even though the words Freemason had been removed, the Catholic should not join Freemasons as it is a severe sin and as a Mason, one cannot take the Catholic Sacraments such as the Eucharist or even last rites.  Its about as severe as you can get without being excommunicated.  

If you read my postings in that forum, I believe most of the anti-Masonry came about for Political reasons with England breaking away from the Church of England.  As a Catholic, I can't just dismiss the argument.  I had hopes of joining the Lodge of Research with a paper on the subject, and even had aspirations of contacting our Cardinal or even the Vatican for review.  But the more I read about the issue, I feel it would be a waste of time, at least for the second part.

We all need to be knowledgeable on the subject, because I know I've been asked several times about religion and Masonry.


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## Curtis Wilson (Dec 31, 2008)

Here is the article where the Southern Baptist Convention 1993, had issues with Freemasons.  Like I said it was a movement that got stopped, but what if it didn't?

http://www.cephasministry.com/baptists_masonic_differences.html


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## gortex6 (Dec 31, 2008)

Curtis Wilson said:


> Previous posting is correct, you will not get excommunicated as a result of joining Freemasonry.  However in Catholic Canon Law, there is no distinction to European Masonry or American Masonry and at the Vatican II council held in 1968, the current Pope, then a Cardinal, wrote an interpretation of the Law in that even though the words Freemason had been removed, the Catholic should not join Freemasons as it is a severe sin and as a Mason, one cannot take the Catholic Sacraments such as the Eucharist or even last rites.  Its about as severe as you can get without being excommunicated.
> 
> If you read my postings in that forum, I believe most of the anti-Masonry came about for Political reasons with England breaking away from the Church of England.  As a Catholic, I can't just dismiss the argument.  I had hopes of joining the Lodge of Research with a paper on the subject, and even had aspirations of contacting our Cardinal or even the Vatican for review.  But the more I read about the issue, I feel it would be a waste of time, at least for the second part.
> 
> We all need to be knowledgeable on the subject, because I know I've been asked several times about religion and Masonry.



I am baptized catholic as well.  Funny how they do not excommunicate pedifile priests or refuse sacraments to pro-abortion catholic politicians.  The day they refuse me sacrament for being a just and upright man is the last day I ever walk into a catholic church.  

At one time catholics were barred from joining he YMCA for the same stupid reasons


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## Brother Secretary (Dec 31, 2008)

Don't quote me on this, but as I understand it the main point of contention of the modern Catholic Church with Masonry is the fact that we promise to keep secret that to which we're obligated and a tenet of Catholicism is that there is nothing you keep secret from your priest. 

Now that having been said KoC as I understand it is basically Catholic rectified Freemasonry. As well, they like to trace their mystic roots back to a Catholic order of Warrior Monks during the Crusades called the Knights Hospitlar (Knights of the Hospital) who just so happened to be garrisoned at a the hospital in Jerusalem at the same time another Catholic order of Warrior Monks were garrisoned at the al-Aqsa Mosque, built upon the site of the Temple of Solomon. They were called The Poor Fellows Soldiery of Jesus Christ and of the Temple of Solomon or, for short, the Knights of the Temple or Knights Templar.


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## RJS (Jan 1, 2009)

Wasn't a lot of Templar possessions given to the Hospitlars after Friday the 13th went down?


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## gortex6 (Jan 1, 2009)

Brother Secretary said:


> As well, they like to trace their mystic roots back to a Catholic order of Warrior Monks during the Crusades called the Knights Hospitlar (Knights of the Hospital) who just so happened to be garrisoned at a the hospital in Jerusalem at the same time another Catholic order of Warrior Monks were garrisoned at the al-Aqsa Mosque, built upon the site of the Temple of Solomon. They were called The Poor Fellows Soldiery of Jesus Christ and of the Temple of Solomon or, for short, the Knights of the Temple or Knights Templar.



Nope.  The knights hospitlars exist today as the Soverign Military Order of Malta and are not to be confused with knights of malta on york rite commandery.  This is a very "interesting" catholic military order of global aristocracy.  These guys have their own internationaly recognized sovereignty and thus have dual citizenship from their order(they issue their own passports).  Their GM ranks as head of state, ecclesiastic ranking as cardinal and secular ranking as prince.  Their higher  grades of knights mush be able to display a coat of arms dating three centuries in unbroken succession from pop to son.  Their members include George H W Bush, Ruppert Murdoch, Tony Blair, and the late William F Buckley among others.  Please tell me if I am wrong; I stand to be corrected......


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## rhitland (Jan 1, 2009)

Do you have to be a member of Skull and Bones also?


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## gortex6 (Jan 2, 2009)

Here is another interesting military order of catholic knights that "enjoys protection under canon law".
Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre


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## Brother Secretary (Jan 3, 2009)

I said, "Don't quote me on it."  source was a DVD "documentary" from netflix called: The Knights Templar I don't recall the director or other details


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## masonicknight (Apr 27, 2010)

For an interesting read try Faith and Fraternalism. It is the history of the Knights of Columbus.  Interesting points are taken that in more then one occasion it required the help of Masonic Grand Lodges to solve some problems.  The Order itself while requiring its members to be Catholic is not actually a part of the Church itself.  It does not reap any benefit from the church faithful but only from its members who contribute graciously to it.  A first degree Knight may only vote on those things that have nothing to do with the Orders Insurance programs.  The second and third degree work is done more in line with that of Scottish Rite as a class setting.  The first is done at the Chapter one has petitioned to.  The meetings are more or less very informal compared to Masonic.  Kind of feels like you have missed out on something by not having a ritual used in opening and closing. 

Odd Fellows Initiatory Degree allows you to participate in the lodge and to vote.  First through Third Degrees allow for participation as an officer.  Again, they work it all as groups, but the first all participate while the others have minimal participation and is done as a class


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## Blake Bowden (Apr 27, 2010)

Very interesting!


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## rev.jake (Apr 27, 2010)

The mission of the IOOF is closer to the BPOE. The officer placement in the BPOE is identical to that of the Masons.  It was one of the first things that struck me as a new Elk.  

When you get down to it, why change what works?  The cross fertilization of ideas and mores is what makes the world work.  We are more alike than most realize.  The BPOE was originally a society to support destitute widows and orphans of Vaudeville actors.  

Jake


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## youngsandy (Apr 28, 2010)

Are the Knights of Columbus the same as the Knights of Saint Columba?
http://www.ksc.org.uk/


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## cambridgemason (Apr 28, 2010)

There was at one time over a thousand different fraternal organizations that existed in the world, many with ties to religious groups and churchs.  Groups such as the Knights of Columbus, which was started by a Priest for members that could not be members of FreeMasonry. The Knights of Honor, Knights of Malta(seperate from KT), Knights of St. George, Knights of St. John, there was the Redman, IOOF,(within that was the UOOF, womans groups, chapters, military style groups like the KT, youth groups), Sons of Temperance, Knights of Pythias, Orangeman, Daugthers of Malta, Woodman of the World, JR and SR order of Mechanics, Order of Owls, Elks, Moose, Lions, Eagles, Anciet order of Hibernias, AOUW, Imporved order of Heptasophs, Knights of Ladies of Honor, Royal Arcanum, Order of the Scottish Clans, N.E.O., Pythian Sisters,United order of Pilgrim Fathers, GAR, Daughters of the Confederate(Veterans?), Knights of Labor, NEOP, Temperance Order, etc etc etc.  Back,  I believe the 1920ish's the Catholic Church printed a book listing all the fraternal organizations that at the time existed, with also a small description of them all, there were thousands of groups.  A copy of this book was supposly sent to every rectory.


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## masonicknight (Apr 28, 2010)

The Knights of Columba is a separate group.  

Knights of Columbus was started by a Catholic Priest named McGiveney, whom the Order has been  working to get Saint status for, with the idea that it would help parish men in times of need.  It eventually became a Fraternal Benefit Society in that it helped its members to plan for the future.  It is not only the largest Lay Mens Order of the Church it is also one of the strongest Insurance programs that is available.  While buying insurance is not required of its members it is encouraged to plan for the future.  

It original aim was to help immigrants that had just arrived and were having difficulty assimilating to the US.


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## ess1113 (May 28, 2012)

Great discussion about the K of C and Freemasonry.
As a practicing and baptized Catholic I have a unique perspective on both along with the conflicts between the Roman Catholic Church in my area and my blue lodge.

Too lengthy to provide all the details but since October 2010 it has been a non-stop headache.  Starting with a phone call from the Grand Knight of the local K of C council.  Of course he got my cell phone number from the parochial school directory so thats been subsequently removed.  The next phone call was from the parish priest, who admitted that he knew nothing about Freemasonry and had no idea why the Church disapproves but he knew I shouldnt belong.  We agreed to disagree after an 90 minute conversation.  I refused to meet in his office as that was a hostile environment.  He subsequently refused to meet for lunch and absolutely refused to meet at the lodge so I could show him around and explain the symbolism.  When asked how he knows I am a Mason, he told me that some parishoners had googled my name and it showed my involvement.

This has been followed with anonymous notes left on my truck.  My truck has masonic stickers on it along with a Catholic War Veterans sticker so I am sure that kills the offended members.  A year ago my wife was called into the Catholic school office where she works and has the diocesian lawyer instruct her to remove the blue slipper sticker off her truck or be terminated.  She removed it as she loves her job and my daughter enjoys the school she attends.  

This past December the school principal called one evening and asked if I could meet her at the school.  Thinking she needed something fixed, I brought my tool box.  She very bluntly told me that the parish priest had directed her to get information on my Masonic involvement.  I refused to give her any information.  Although we remain speaking acquaintences we are far from friends.  It is also ironic that several parents have approached the school board to have my wife removed from teaching since her husband is a Mason and they are afraid that I will try to convert them.  Convert them to what is a total mystery to me.  The most vocal parent actually took her son to the Scottish Rite learning center for help with dyslexia this past year.  She remains blissfully ignorant that the clinic is a Masonic charity. 

Summary: the US Catholic Church is not friendly with Freemasonry.  I am always at a loss to understand or explain why this division exists.  I personally believe that what may have happened hundreds of years ago has little to no bearing on affairs today but that is a moot argument.  
I love my Church and remain a devoted Catholic but its been difficult.  Currently the US Conference of Catholic Bishops have initiated investigations on the Boy Scouts of America and the Girl Scouts of America alleging that they are counter to Catholicism.  The allegation is that they do not require a belief in Jesus Christ as dictated by the Church.  The same traits are shared by Alcoholics Anonymous and many organizations.  
Galileo was excomunicated from the Catholic Church for his beliefs that the earth revolved around the sun.  For 350 years he remained banned from the Church until 1992 when Pope John Paul II issue a statement admitting error on the part of the Church.  I believe that someday, not in my lifetime, this will be the same for Freemasonry.  I may not live to see it but I will pray for it to happen and I will remain a devoted Roman Catholic and a dedicated Freemason, Scottish Rite Mason, York Rite Mason, and National Sojourner.


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## jimmy (May 30, 2012)

It is rather "coincedental" that they also wear chapeaux and dress like Masonic KT's


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## BryanMaloney (May 31, 2012)

The priest who founded the K of C openly meant it to be a fraternal/mutual aid organization for Catholics to join instead of Freemasonry, both because the Church opposed Freemasonry and Catholics were routinely excluded from many aspects of public life in the USA at the time. (In Boston, there were riots over whether or not to allow Catholic children to use non-Protestant Bibles in school--back when public schools permitted Bibles). There was a great deal of anti-Catholic sentiment in the USA (see the book "How the Irish Became White" for some idea of this, from an Irish standpoint). Thus, the K of C filled a niche, and resemblances would be expected.


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## bullrack33 (May 31, 2012)

Very interesting discussion! The IOOF is something I had wondered about for many years. My father and Grandfather were both members back home in Eastern Ky. I have often wondered though, why my father never became a Mason even though my Grandfather was. Maybe they had too much time together at IOOF meetings? :19:


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## Alhambran (Jul 15, 2012)

JEbeling said:


> understand the Knights of Columbus was started by a priest near Boston.. ! he either knew a lot about Masonary or was a mason.. ! when they started it was go give jobs to Italian american .. ! if you owned a business you were suppose to hire another..? they first started with the three degrees .. ! as I understand they are some-what like the masonary degrees but don't know for sure.. ! at a later date they added a fourth degree call the flag degree...? don't know much about their degrees... ! we have a couple of members of our lodge who are also members of the Knights of Columbus... ! but have never ask them about it..? I know they can not meet without a preist present..?


 
Ideally a cleric (priest or deacon) as the chaplain would be present at meetings, but just as with any officer who might not be available, its common not to have the chaplain present - I've been to KC meetings where the chaplain has often been absent.  If we waited for when he could be available, we'd only meet a few times a year and get nothing done.


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## Alhambran (Jul 15, 2012)

The rank-and-file SMOM members do not get SMOM passports - that is for the leadership and select elite and "working members" in the organization.  I would estimate that 10% (and that's being very generous) of SMOM members have SMOM passports.



gortex6 said:


> Nope.  The knights hospitlars exist today as the Soverign Military Order of Malta and are not to be confused with knights of malta on york rite commandery.  This is a very "interesting" catholic military order of global aristocracy.  These guys have their own internationaly recognized sovereignty and thus have dual citizenship from their order(they issue their own passports).  Their GM ranks as head of state, ecclesiastic ranking as cardinal and secular ranking as prince.  Their higher  grades of knights mush be able to display a coat of arms dating three centuries in unbroken succession from pop to son.  Their members include George H W Bush, Ruppert Murdoch, Tony Blair, and the late William F Buckley among others.  Please tell me if I am wrong; I stand to be corrected......


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## Alhambran (Jul 15, 2012)

youngsandy said:


> Are the Knights of Columbus the same as the Knights of Saint Columba?
> Knights of St Columba



No, but the Knights of St. Columba are modelled after the Knights of Columbus - even the silhouette of their emblem is the same as the Knights of Columbus.  The actual similarities at the council and ritual level, may end at the emblem.  I can't say for sure.  I'm aware of the Knights of St. Columba (and the Knights of St. Columbanus in Ireland), but I can't say I know a great deal about them.


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## Alhambran (Jul 15, 2012)

To answer your question, not meant as a condemnation, not to insult anyone...

It is also not my intent to get into any debate about right or wrongness of Catholic objections to Freemasonry.  

Aside from the well-known historical/political issues, real or perceived, the Catholic theological objection is summarized as follows:

The notion of "Undefined Deism" - the GAOTU is not explicitly the Judeo-Christian deity.
The taking of "blood oaths", with the promise of maiming others, or agreeing to be maimed themselves
_One common objection heard is that these oaths are just symbolic, or in jest, to which the CC would then assert that the oaths are....
_Oaths taken in vain - invoking god, or swearing before god something that is not true.

No individual priest or bishop may grant a dispensation lifting the excommunication for Masonic membership - let's call it for what it is - being told "not to approach the sacraments" is excommunication.  Its not the formal proclamation commonly thought of, but it is no less binding.  According to the CC, merely joining incurs _ipso_ _facto_ excommunication.

I believe that one day the prohibition against Freemasonry will eventually be lifted.



ess1113 said:


> Great discussion about the K of C and Freemasonry.
> As a practicing and baptized Catholic I have a unique perspective on both along with the conflicts between the Roman Catholic Church in my area and my blue lodge.
> 
> Too lengthy to provide all the details but since October 2010 it has been a non-stop headache.  Starting with a phone call from the Grand Knight of the local K of C council.  Of course he got my cell phone number from the parochial school directory so thats been subsequently removed.  The next phone call was from the parish priest, who admitted that he knew nothing about Freemasonry and had no idea why the Church disapproves but he knew I shouldnt belong.  We agreed to disagree after an 90 minute conversation.  I refused to meet in his office as that was a hostile environment.  He subsequently refused to meet for lunch and absolutely refused to meet at the lodge so I could show him around and explain the symbolism.  When asked how he knows I am a Mason, he told me that some parishoners had googled my name and it showed my involvement.
> ...


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 15, 2012)

gortex6 said:


> Nope.  The knights hospitlars exist today as the Soverign Military Order of Malta and are not to be confused with knights of malta on york rite commandery.  This is a very "interesting" catholic military order of global aristocracy.  These guys have their own internationaly recognized sovereignty and thus have dual citizenship from their order(they issue their own passports).  Their GM ranks as head of state, ecclesiastic ranking as cardinal and secular ranking as prince.  Their higher  grades of knights mush be able to display a coat of arms dating three centuries in unbroken succession from pop to son.  Their members include George H W Bush, Ruppert Murdoch, Tony Blair, and the late William F Buckley among others.  Please tell me if I am wrong; I stand to be corrected......


 
None of these alleged "members" are eligible for membership in the Sovereign Order. One MUST be an active, practicing Roman Catholic. Blair is ineligible because he is not of the nobility.


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## Alhambran (Jul 15, 2012)

Nobility per se is not a requirement to get into SMOM.  There are different classes of membership (off the top of my head):

Knights of Justice
Knights of Grace
Knights of Magisterial Grace
Knights of Obedience with Professed vows.

Only one of those classes of SMOM require nobility (I forget which one), if I'm not mistaken.  At least one of the other classes allow "commoners" to join.  I know one gentleman who is involved in similar organizations, and was invited into SMOM.  He certain doesn't have "noble blood" or lineage.  This particular gentleman declined membership because of his age and health, his current commitment to several other organizations, and, frankly, money - the "passage fees" and yearly oblations for SMOM are considerable when compared to other similar organizations the gentleman is involved with.



BryanMaloney said:


> None of these alleged "members" are eligible for membership in the Sovereign Order. One MUST be an active, practicing Roman Catholic. Blair is ineligible because he is not of the nobility.


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## Alhambran (Jul 22, 2012)

Brother Secretary said:


> Now that having been said KoC as I understand it is basically Catholic rectified Freemasonry. As well, they like to trace their mystic roots back to a Catholic order of Warrior Monks during the Crusades called the Knights Hospitlar (Knights of the Hospital) who just so happened to be garrisoned at a the hospital in Jerusalem at the same time another Catholic order of Warrior Monks were garrisoned at the al-Aqsa Mosque, built upon the site of the Temple of Solomon. They were called The Poor Fellows Soldiery of Jesus Christ and of the Temple of Solomon or, for short, the Knights of the Temple or Knights Templar.



The KCs make no pretense as being a modern incarnation of any of the Crusading orders.  There are some symbolic words alluding to the "knights of old" (or words to that effect), but the KCs are merely a fraternity, despite what some KC 4th Degree members believe.


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## Alhambran (Jul 22, 2012)

Regarding other groups mentioned in this thread....

UK's version of the Knights of Columbus:
Knights of St. Columba -  www.ksc.org.uk


Ireland's version...
Knights of St. Columbanus -  www.knightsofstcolumbanus.ie

Order of Alhambra:   www.orderalhambra.org


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## Plustax (Jul 23, 2012)

I recall a Mason down in S. Tx (Beeville) having to "renounce" his Masonic ties in order to go back in to the Catholic church. Anyone heard of something like this before.  This just happened last year and I knew that the person had been a Mason for quite some time. I recall meeting him once or twice during my visits there. I was kinda shocked when my brother told me that in order for him to be accepted back in the Catholic church he had to renounce being a Mason and then wait a certain amount of time before being allowed to participate in certain church positions.


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## Alhambran (Jul 23, 2012)

Plustax said:


> I recall a Mason down in S. Tx (Beeville) having to "renounce" his Masonic ties in order to go back in to the Catholic church. Anyone heard of something like this before.  This just happened last year and I knew that the person had been a Mason for quite some time. I recall meeting him once or twice during my visits there. I was kinda shocked when my brother told me that in order for him to be accepted back in the Catholic church he had to renounce being a Mason and then wait a certain amount of time before being allowed to participate in certain church positions.



That sounds mostly right - renounce membership, or at least withdraw your membership.  The waiting part seems a bit unusual, but perhaps it was some sort of penance applied?

It also depends on $$, as one poster here noted - a wealthy Masonic Catholic was given a dispensation by the local ordinary (bishop), which they lack the authority to do, BTW, because the said Masonic Catholic was a big-time donor to the Church.

I have an uncle of means who is a 32nd Degree Mason.  When he got married, he was asked if he were a member of any "secret society".  He admitted his membership in the Lodge, and the pastor hesitated, to which my uncle responded that he'd leave the Church before he left the Masons.  The pastor married him in the Church...

I'm a small-fry.  I'm not a captain of industry, nor a big-money donor, so I doubt I'd get a pass...


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## davidjones201 (Aug 14, 2012)

Lol


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## Bill Lins (Apr 12, 2013)

Dunno how I've missed this thread before. 

We initiated a candidate a couple of weeks ago. On his petition he stated that he belonged to the Eagles, but nothing else. 

Two days after his initiation, he called our SW (who had given him his petition) and advised that he had gotten a call from the Grand Knight of the local KC Council, who said our EA could either be a Mason or a KC, but not both. 

He told our SW that, as he had been a KC for many years, he had decided to stick with them and withdraw from the Lodge. According to him, the problem was with the KCs, not the Catholic Church itself.


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## Roy Vance (Apr 13, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Dunno how I've missed this thread before.
> 
> We initiated a candidate a couple of weeks ago. On his petition he stated that he belonged to the Eagles, but nothing else.
> 
> ...



Seems to me that I would have to ask him why he hadn't mentioned his affiliation with the KofC anyway. That, to me, would be the same as lying in his petition by not mentioning it.


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## STLamb (Apr 13, 2013)

I went through the first 3 degrees of the K of C many years ago when I was still a Catholic. No one wants to admit the bottom line about the K of C. Their hidden secret is that it's a Life Insurance Company, and the minute you join, you are pestered by an agent wanting to sell you insurance. In fact, years ago, the insurance used to be mandatory. That's the reall heart of the K of C, and one of the major reasons I left. Also, one of the first things that I fell in love with Freemasonry over is that, other than a raffle ticket here and there, no one is trying to set up sales appointments with me, or trying to take over my finances.


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## widows son (Apr 13, 2013)

Growing up in a catholic setting ( I went to a catholic elementary and high school) I found that it was very unforgiving and harsh.  some teachers were very nice, but i never would get them for any of my classes. In "religion" class Any  question that could or would have lead to an open forum were stomped out. We learned about other religions in the text books, but the teacher would inject his views as to why they are wrong, then he would assign work based on this, which never had anything to do with learning these religions. I remember in grade school being told that Christ doesn't accept "misbehaved boys." Its funny, would christ accept pedophiles? In high school I started to question my faith, which lead me to asking questions, which instead of a response that would be of guidance and positivity for a 16 year old kid, I got told the consequences for my lack of faith and found myself getting into more trouble with the faculty staff more and more. I by no means was a model student but I always got my work done and graduated with low 80's in some classes. I've also had run ins with my own family on this issue of my "lack of faith."  Since I've joined the lodge it hasn't gotten easier, but it hasn't gotten worse so I'm thankful for that. I have no ill will towards anyone of any faith. What you believe in is your own mess to sort out. But one thing I've learned is that no matter what religion or fraternity you belong to, it's people running it right to the top. The pope, is a man. Mohammad was a man. So were all the patriarchs and characters in the bible. A man has no more a better idea of God than the next man standing next to him. Even if it is the pope.


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## Bill Lins (Apr 13, 2013)

roy.vance said:


> Seems to me that I would have to ask him why he hadn't mentioned his affiliation with the KofC anyway. That, to me, would be the same as lying in his petition by not mentioning it.



Good point, but some folks are very sensitive regarding their religion, and it isn't supposed to matter to us once the petitioner professes belief in a Supreme Being of any type.

I sought guidance from the Grand Secretary regarding this situation- the following was his response, which I'm posting for those who may, in the future, find themselves in the same position I was in:

On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Grand Secretary <gs@grandsecretaryoftx.org> wrote:

"Dear Bill,

This event occurs at rare times, but Brother Xxxxx  is making a tough decision and we will assist him.  We have Catholics who belong to both the Grand Lodge of Texas and to the local Knights of Columbus. I understand an old Canon law is on their books that says a man cannot be a Mason and a Catholic, but I have been told that the enforcement of it is by the local Priest and that many do not enforce it.  In this case they apparently do.
 
 Please ask him to put his request in writing; then process a Masonic Form No. 30, _Certificate of Dismissal_;and drop his name from your Lodge rolls.  Send the completed Form 30 to me and the Grand Secretary's staff will take care of the process.  I recommend that you return his fees to him but that decision is up to your Lodge.

Sincerely and fraternally,
Tom Guest"


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