# Who are these Fellows?



## 88DAM88 (Jun 6, 2017)

In the Entered Apprentice degree "liturgy" and proficiency we find the word fellows " . . . among Brothers and Fellows . .  ," " . . . as all Brothers and Fellows . . . " Does Fellows in these passages refer to Fellow Crafts? Or to, perhaps, Odd Fellows? If Fellow Crafts, does this imply that an Entered Apprentice is not a "Brother" until he is a Master Mason? Curious about the evolution and meaning of this point in the work.


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## Elexir (Jun 6, 2017)

"One of the Early degrees"?

Most likley not Odd Fellows as they didnt apear intill 1730. And honestly has gone their own way.

Remember that the third degree is the youngest of the three.


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 6, 2017)

I thank he just means early as in before, 1st, ect.  So EA and FC

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## Elexir (Jun 6, 2017)

Then its most likley not the OF.


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 6, 2017)

Yeah I highly doubt its them

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## 88DAM88 (Jun 6, 2017)

Edited to clarify my inquiry: In the Entered Apprentice degree "liturgy" and proficiency we find the word fellows " . . . among Brothers and Fellows . . ," " . . . as all Brothers and Fellows . . . " Does Fellows in these passages refer to Fellow Crafts? Or to, perhaps, Odd Fellows? If Fellow Crafts, does this imply that an Entered Apprentice is not a "Brother" until he is a Master Mason? Curious about the evolution and meaning of this point in the work.


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## Elexir (Jun 6, 2017)

Depending on age we have to take out MM as this degree is the youngest and for some time fellowcraft was the highest degree. So its most likley refering to that.

Im not sure about your hangup with Odd Fellows as they are younger then modern Freemasonry (around 1720 the third degree was added and Odd Fellows didnt apear until 1730)


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## coachn (Jun 6, 2017)

88DAM88 said:


> Edited to clarify my inquiry: In the Entered Apprentice degree "liturgy" and proficiency we find the word fellows " . . . among Brothers and Fellows . . ," " . . . as all Brothers and Fellows . . . " Does Fellows in these passages refer to Fellow Crafts? Or to, perhaps, Odd Fellows? If Fellow Crafts, does this imply that an Entered Apprentice is not a "Brother" until he is a Master Mason? Curious about the evolution and meaning of this point in the work.



Originally, *Brothers* were full fledged members, and more specifically: *EAs*.  This was all that was required to join the roll playing society when the PGL first franchised all this stuff we do.

Fellows were the Masters of the Lodge, and they were the FCs.  It was the highest title and "the Master's part" was what a member had to experience to become a FC.

This all changed soon after the PGL turned the task of making FCs over to the lodges and the MM was offered as an option soon thereafter.

No, "fellows" here is NOT an Odd Fellows thingy.

see: http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2017/03/a-brother-asks-what-is-highest-degree.html
and: http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2017/03/a-brother-asks-about-highest-degree-post.html

for more information on this and other related stuff.


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## 88DAM88 (Jun 6, 2017)

Elexir said:


> Depending on age we have to take out MM as this degree is the youngest and for some time fellowcraft was the highest degree. So its most likley refering to that.
> 
> Im not sure about your hangup with Odd Fellows as they are younger then modern Freemasonry (around 1720 the third degree was added and Odd Fellows didnt apear until 1730)


Just a question and a possible postualtion. No "hangup." Pure inquiry, Brother, Odd Fellows included as nearly facetious humor, truth be told. Breathe.


coachn said:


> Originally, *Brothers* were full fledged members, and more specifically: *EAs*.  This was all that was required to join the roll playing society when the PGL first franchised all this stuff we do.
> 
> Fellows were the Masters of the Lodge, and they were the FCs.  It was the highest title and "the Master's part" was what a member had to experience to become a FC.
> 
> ...





coachn said:


> Originally, *Brothers* were full fledged members, and more specifically: *EAs*.  This was all that was required to join the roll playing society when the PGL first franchised all this stuff we do.
> 
> Fellows were the Masters of the Lodge, and they were the FCs.  It was the highest title and "the Master's part" was what a member had to experience to become a FC.
> 
> ...


Excellent. Thank you, Brother. Very enlightening.


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## Bloke (Jun 6, 2017)

88DAM88 said:


> In the Entered Apprentice degree "liturgy" and proficiency we find the word fellows " . . . among Brothers and Fellows . .  ," " . . . as all Brothers and Fellows . . . " Does Fellows in these passages refer to Fellow Crafts? Or to, perhaps, Odd Fellows? If Fellow Crafts, does this imply that an Entered Apprentice is not a "Brother" until he is a Master Mason? Curious about the evolution and meaning of this point in the work.



I seem to have the impression your not a Freemason. Either way "liturgy" is not a accurate word to use in respect to Freemasonry.  That said, it was a good question.


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 6, 2017)

Bloke said:


> I seem to have the impression your not a Freemason. Either way "liturgy" is not a accurate word to use in respect to Freemasonry.  That said, it was a good question.


Had to look thatbword up...lol....a synonym for it is ritual so i guess it could be used.  However Insee your point Brother

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## Brother JC (Jun 8, 2017)

If I'm not mistaken (and I often am) it comes from Fellow of the Craft, an earlier term.


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## jermy Bell (Jun 9, 2017)

I have been a Mm for around 3 years, and have wondered about the fellows part as well, and had asked who the fellows were, and I know 7 grand lectures, and they couldn't answer that question either.


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 9, 2017)

My opinion is that it is refering to initiates who are not yet brothers.

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## Warrior1256 (Jun 9, 2017)

coachn said:


> st franchised all this stuff we do.
> 
> Fellows were the Masters of the Lodge, and they were the FCs. It was the highest title and "the Master's part" was what a member had to experience to become a FC.
> 
> ...


Great info! Thanks coachn.


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## Bloke (Jun 9, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> My opinion is that it is refering to initiates who are not yet brothers.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app



That might be it. It really depends on how it's used. I assume Coach has done a fair bit of study on this, but I've only considered it in the context of our ritual and it's didn't really matter because "brethren and fellows" is only symbolic in a play acting troop and hence we should attach too much importance on it 

But seriously, it appears in our ritual once (that I've noticed) in the 3rd talking about "correcting" others and it quite an interesting paragraph. It also starts "In the character of a master mason.."and i seriously wonder if that means when acting as a MM or being a MM or if it's about other people. Like a lot of things, it might have layers.  Then of course there's "brethren and fellows" and if fellows are a subgroup  of the first or something different, including FC's or just fellow humans.


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## coachn (Jun 9, 2017)

Bloke said:


> That might be it. It really depends on how it's used. I assume Coach has done a fair bit of study on this, but I've only considered it in the context of our ritual and it's didn't really matter because "brethren and fellows" is only symbolic in a play acting troop and hence we should attach too much importance on it
> 
> But seriously, it appears in our ritual once (that I've noticed) in the 3rd talking about "correcting" others and it quite an interesting paragraph. It also starts "In the character of a master mason.."and i seriously wonder if that means when acting as a MM or being a MM or if it's about other people. Like a lot of things, it might have layers.  Then of course there's "brethren and fellows" and if fellows are a subgroup  of the first or something different, including FC's or just fellow humans.


If you read "The Craft Unmasked!", the evidence (that made it into the book) is pretty clear


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## Bloke (Jun 9, 2017)

coachn said:


> If you read "The Craft Unmasked!", the evidence (that made it into the book) is pretty clear


Not yet Coach but it's for a mention often enough to think I should. Thanks.


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## coachn (Jun 9, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Not yet Coach but it's for a mention often enough to think I should. Thanks.


If you do, I recommend reading "Building Free Men" first as it was the inspiration for TCU.


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## Bloke (Jun 9, 2017)

coachn said:


> If you do, I recommend reading "Building Free Men" first as it was the inspiration for TCU.


Again. Thanks.


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## Brother JC (Jun 9, 2017)

Another thought (with absolutely nothing to back it) is that it came from The Royal Society, where "Fellow" was a step above "Member." It probably wouldn't be the first thing our supper club borrowed from the Society.


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 9, 2017)

Supper club...lol

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## Warrior1256 (Jun 10, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> It probably wouldn't be the first thing our supper club borrowed from the Society.





Ripcord22A said:


> Supper club...lol


Yeah, good one.


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## Elexir (Jun 10, 2017)

Sorry but the Jesters was created in the US in the 1910s


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## Glen Cook (Jun 10, 2017)

Logis Strategos said:


> 88DAM88
> "....The Jesters - Weird Fellows - Odd Men - Devoted Scribes - Sons of Hours"
> 
> These are sub-sects of York Rite Freemasons that performed specific ritual, ceremonial, or public duties.
> ...


This is untruthful and silly, and not even fun silly.


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## Glen Cook (Jun 10, 2017)

Logis Strategos said:


> Persecuted just as the nails of the cross were hewn by a woman and driven through the flesh of Christ.
> I too am persecuted! There is very good detail about the Jesters in william schnoebelen's book "Church of the Black Ram".


As noted, the Jesters were not formed in the US  until 1911. The White Chapel murders were some 20 years before that.  The Jesters do not have York Rite as a prerequisite. England does not use the term York Rite.

The individual to whom you cite, claims to have been a vampire, and is a known fraud.

You aren't a Mason, are you?


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## Glen Cook (Jun 10, 2017)

Logis Strategos said:


> I work for the BIS.
> Masonry is just a stepping stone...
> Orders and Chapters you aren't privileged to hear whispered....


You aren't a Mason, are you?


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 10, 2017)

Logis Strategos said:


> Orders and Chapters you aren't privileged to hear whispered....


Hahahaha....your talking to a 33rd deg. And a PGM....but hes not privileged enough?....lol


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## Bloke (Jun 10, 2017)

Logis Strategos said:


> 88DAM88
> "....The Jesters - Weird Fellows - Odd Men - Devoted Scribes - Sons of Hours"
> 
> These are sub-sects of York Rite Freemasons that performed specific ritual, ceremonial, or public duties.
> ...


Aaaaahahahahaha!

That's up there with the moon is made of cheese and the cow jumps over it on Tuesdays at 2 pm but the cow is too busy on odd months to do it because its getting milk transfusions into its left 7th lung... or that the RMS Titanic sank in 1899 AD because it flew too close  to the European Unions Space Station because the Captains IPhone 6's firmware failed.


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## Bloke (Jun 10, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Hahahaha....your talking to a 33rd deg. And a PGM....but hes not privileged enough?....lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app



U gotta have the 1384.686 degree. The one they hold  on Pluto on the 6th Wednesday of the sith month... every six years. Shhh. Dont tell !


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## coachn (Jun 10, 2017)

Logis Strategos said:


> 88DAM88
> "....The Jesters - Weird Fellows - Odd Men - Devoted Scribes - Sons of Hours"
> 
> These are sub-sects of York Rite Freemasons that performed specific ritual, ceremonial, or public duties.
> ...


Geez!  Your very thought betray you.  Get a life.


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## coachn (Jun 10, 2017)

Logis Strategos said:


> I work for the BIS.


And I work for the PIZZA.  So What!?


Logis Strategos said:


> Masonry is just a stepping stone...


Don't tell me... you took the escalator!


Logis Strategos said:


> Orders and Chapters you aren't privileged to hear whispered....


LOL!...


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 10, 2017)

Can always count on coach!

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## Warrior1256 (Jun 10, 2017)

Logis Strategos said:


> ...The Jesters - Weird Fellows - Odd Men - Devoted Scribes - Sons of Hours"
> 
> These are sub-sects of York Rite Freemasons that performed specific ritual, ceremonial, or public duties.
> The Whitechapel murders were carried out by The Jesters.
> ...


Another Troll!


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 10, 2017)

coachn said:


> Geez! Your very thought betray you. Get a life.


Lol!


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## BullDozer Harrell (Jun 10, 2017)

jermy Bell said:


> I have been a Mm for around 3 years, and have wondered about the fellows part as well, and had asked who the fellows were, and I know 7 grand lectures, and they couldn't answer that question either.


Are you disappointed in the 7 Grand Lecturers who couldn't or maybe just wouldn't tell you the answer to your question?


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## BullDozer Harrell (Jun 10, 2017)

I heard from somewhere and I can't quite put my finger on from whom but it was told to me that the distinction was made between Brothers & Fellows to mark partially what Coach has said. The differences of Masonic degrees between two members. 

This same guy told me also to consider the time period when those words were framed by the men of that day. There was a proximity to other English organizations like the Royal Society which I believe someone else mentioned in this thread. 

There seem to be an open fraternal approach towards possible Craft & Society cross membership. 

Sounded plausible and sensible to me when i heard it.


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## 88DAM88 (Jun 13, 2017)

Bloke said:


> I seem to have the impression your not a Freemason. Either way "liturgy" is not a accurate word to use in respect to Freemasonry.  That said, it was a good question.


I am a Freemason, although not a very seasoned one. What in my query gave you the impression that I was not a Freemason. I appreciate the communication, illumination and fraternity in the discussions here. I used  "liturgy" in quotations as I was at a loss for a proper or respectful word in the moment. I know that liturgy is a religious reference but "lines," "oral drama," "script,"  etc didn't seem to cut it at the time . . . perhaps "degree work" would have sufficed. Thank you.


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## Brother JC (Jun 13, 2017)

Ritual is the generally used term.


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## 88DAM88 (Jun 13, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> Ritual is the generally used term.


Ah, I am a word guy so I was thinking of the "script" and didn't consider referring generally to the entire ritual although it would have been better to.
I think of ritual as the entire passion play en toto.


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## Bloke (Jun 13, 2017)

88DAM88 said:


> Ah, I am a word guy so I was thinking of the "script" and didn't consider referring generally to the entire ritual although it would have been better to.
> I think of ritual as the entire passion play en toto.


I like "ritual" As it suggests a process... which is what Freemasonry should be. Oh ! There's an article on that !


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## Glen Cook (Jun 14, 2017)

88DAM88 said:


> I am a Freemason, although not a very seasoned one. What in my query gave you the impression that I was not a Freemason. I appreciate the communication, illumination and fraternity in the discussions here. I used  "liturgy" in quotations as I was at a loss for a proper or respectful word in the moment. I know that liturgy is a religious reference but "lines," "oral drama," "script,"  etc didn't seem to cut it at the time . . . perhaps "degree work" would have sufficed. Thank you.


Which grand lodge?

Edited


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 14, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Which grand lodge?
> 
> Your erroneous remarks about the Jesters gave me the idea you aren't a Freemason as well as use of the term liturgy in place of the commonly accepted word.


Brother he wasn't the one who made the comment about the Jesters.  It was a troll who did.

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## GKA (Jun 29, 2017)

Since the ritual predates the emergence of the MM degree, 1723 to 1730, it would be safe to assume that the fellows are fellow craft masons and the brothers would be the EA masons, the obligations are different obviously, so considering that the definition of a brother would include an equal committment to oaths taken, it would be difficult to consider an EA at the same level as a FC, just on the obligation alone.


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