# What would you change?



## hanzosbm (Dec 1, 2017)

I was recently sitting around discussing Masonry with some brothers, and inevitably, the topic came up of "you know what's wrong with Freemasonry?"

It seems that everyone I talk to has a different idea about what Freemasonry _should_ be, and in most cases, it is based on an idea of going back to some previous idea about how it used to be (whether that is true or not is a discussion for another time).  Some felt that we should operate more as an aide society to the brothers, not only financial, but also in terms of networking.  Others felt it was more about charity and doing good in the community.  Some preferred a more reflective and intellectual gathering. 
Regardless, it seems that everyone has a different idea on what it _should_ be, and I'd like to hear the thoughts of the brothers here.


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## Brother_Steve (Dec 1, 2017)

We're all thinking about how glamorous it was before we were raised and why we're experiencing it the wrong way.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 1, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> We're all thinking about how glamorous it was before we were raised and why we're experiencing it the wrong way.


Not arguing, but when do you think the glamourous time was?


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## Brother_Steve (Dec 2, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Not arguing, but when do you think the glamourous time was?


I am happy as a Mason. My lodge does a good job in keeping busy. I just keep reading that the fraternity was different before the influx after ww2. "Join a TO lodge if you want to experience what masonry was," was another counter to the stagnant mason complaining about his experience.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 2, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> I am happy as a Mason. My lodge does a good job in keeping busy. I just keep reading that the fraternity was different before the influx after ww2. "Join a TO lodge if you want to experience what masonry was," was another counter to the stagnant mason complaining about his experience.


Now was it different before the WWII influx?


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## CLewey44 (Dec 2, 2017)

I think the Victorian Era style Masonry is what a lot of guys imagined hence the TO lodge argument. Specifically here in the U.S. vs. Euro. I think everyone that would read this particular forum would say or at least be aware of the argument about the post WWII era in the U.S., Masonry became watered down maybe? I don' know why Masonry exploded after WWII exactly but I know whatever it was that increased nembership to all time highs but then the aftermath was the inability to retain those membership numbers. 4M in late 50s to now about  1M.  To me, something we did after allowing that sort of "liberal" entry ultimately caused a drastic disinterest and unsustainabity in membership. Idont know, million different opinions and a million different arguments.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 2, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> I think the Victorian Era style Masonry is what a lot of guys imagined hence the TO lodge argument. Specifically here in the U.S. vs. Euro. I think everyone that would read this particular forum would say or at least be aware of the argument about the post WWII era in the U.S., Masonry became watered down maybe? I don' know why Masonry exploded after WWII exactly but I know whatever it was that increased nembership to all time highs but then the aftermath was the inability to retain those membership numbers. 4M in late 50s to now about  1M.  To me, something we did after allowing that sort of "liberal" entry ultimately caused a drastic disinterest and unsustainabity in membership. Idont know, million different opinions and a million different arguments.


And others will say it didn’t become watered down until the 90’s.
I would have thought the glorious time was post WWII


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## CLewey44 (Dec 2, 2017)

Very possibly so. To have that many numbers they were doing something right back then it seems. However, I guess my point was the immediate post WWII era was the beginning of the end with such a huge influx and Masonry MAYBE not guarding the west too well. That eventually became the standard the next  60 or 70 years. Then ultimately the 90s being a "lowpoint" in quality and being watered down. I know my dad stopped participating as much about 20-25 years ago. Our numbers are still dropping but I'm not sure if that's necessarily a bad thing. Again it's tough pinpoint or say. We have some decent ideas on improving Masonry but the hard part is implementing any sort of change. "Thats hows it has always been" etc.


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## Raymond Walters (Dec 2, 2017)

hanzosbm said:


> I was recently sitting around discussing Masonry with some brothers, and inevitably, the topic came up of "you know what's wrong with Freemasonry?"
> 
> It seems that everyone I talk to has a different idea about what Freemasonry _should_ be, and in most cases, it is based on an idea of going back to some previous idea about how it used to be (whether that is true or not is a discussion for another time).  Some felt that we should operate more as an aide society to the brothers, not only financial, but also in terms of networking.  Others felt it was more about charity and doing good in the community.  Some preferred a more reflective and intellectual gathering.
> Regardless, it seems that everyone has a different idea on what it _should_ be, and I'd like to hear the thoughts of the brothers here.




Something to ponder that relates to your posted comment

http://raymondswalters.blogspot.com/2014/06/my-ideal-masonic-lodge-essay.html

https://gnostique.academia.edu/RaymondSeanWalters


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## hanzosbm (Dec 4, 2017)

Raymond Walters said:


> Something to ponder that relates to your posted comment
> 
> http://raymondswalters.blogspot.com/2014/06/my-ideal-masonic-lodge-essay.html
> 
> https://gnostique.academia.edu/RaymondSeanWalters



EXCELLENT articles.  Thank you brother. 

Going back to some of the previous replies, I think it touches on my original question, but tangentially.  As has been mentioned, everyone talks about the glory days of Masonry and how we should go back to that.  But I think that we need to dig deeper than that.  Why are/were those the glory days of Masonry?  (whatever timeframe that might be from that person's point of view)  Unless you're really big into esoteric numerology, I doubt that the year was the important aspect of what we feel we should 'go back to'.  Rather, it is some ideal, whether real or perceived, about the state of Masonry that we long for.  The first thing that I feel is important to recognize is that we don't all agree on the ideal state of Masonry; we all want it to be something different.  I personally think that one of our biggest flaws in this endeavor is that we don't state our wants plainly.  We say things like "I wish it was like it was back in blah blah blah".  Okay, so, what does that really mean?  You want more members?  You want more visibility?  You want more charity work?  You want LESS visibility?  You want more discussion?  What does it mean?

Brother Walters in the paper he has linked has discussed specifics about what he wants, and I think that's the first step.  The purpose of me creating this thread was two-fold.  First, I wanted people to give different ideas purely for the purpose of shining a spotlight on the fact that we all have different ideas; none more correct than another.  Secondly, I wanted to start a dialogue about them.

As I previously stated, it seems like everyone wants to see some kind of change in Masonry, and it also seems like everyone has some kind of idea about what that change should be.  But I think the problem is that most people hold these ideas in a vacuum.  They know in their minds what it looks like, but I think that we need to open up and express to each other what these ideas are to find out what the common themes are, because those are the areas where real change can actually occur.


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## JJones (Dec 4, 2017)

Posting to track this thread, I have a lot to say about this when I have time!

I have a whole blog dedicated to this topic for the most part, btw. See it in my signature.


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## jermy Bell (Dec 4, 2017)

What would I change?  Having to give everyone recognition for everything that someone does,  hey ! John Paul changed the sign out front of the lodge, let' give him a round of applause,  we donated to a local charity,  let' get the ones who motioned and agreed the vote together and get get our picture in the local paper, or just going to see a I'll brother gets a mention of the person or persons in open lodge. If your looking for a pat on the back , or recognized for something you did, then I think masonry is not for you. I think to just do something for someone  or your community should be rewarding in itself.  But, this is just my opinion.


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## David612 (Dec 5, 2017)

I’m sure you could find text of masons longing for the glory days dating from 1716.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Dec 13, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Not arguing, but when do you think the glamourous time was?


When I stopped waiting for someone else to make the Lodge glamorous and starting standing up in Lodge and educating the Brothers myself.


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## Bro Book (Dec 13, 2017)

Nothing is wrong with masonry , masons are 

the  problem !  I would suggest the ritual has the key.

Sent from my RCT6973W43 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## David612 (Dec 13, 2017)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> When I stopped waiting for someone else to make the Lodge glamorous and starting standing up in Lodge educating the Brothers myself.


Exactly this.
I would also add, freemasonry is a solitary journey.
Enjoy lodge for what it is but the real value is out there for you to find.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 13, 2017)

You fellas are absolutely correct but the fraternity itself has some room for improvement.


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## cemab4y (Dec 14, 2017)

I have thought about this topic frequently, and even started discussions on this board. I believe sincerely, that we can keep true to our ancient landmarks, and still make Masonry relevant to the 21st century man. We can upgrade and modernize some of our administrative procedures, and streamline the process. We can publish our minutes on line. We can enable members to pay dues online. We can revive some of our practices, which were very popular decades ago. I would love to see the lodges revive the Masonic Employment bureaus. I have suffered the scourge of unemployment, and I can tell you, the state employment agencies just AIN'T CUTTIN' IT!


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## cemab4y (Dec 14, 2017)

Check out this link

https://www.myfreemasonry.com/threads/what-would-you-like-to-see-changed-in-masonry.12869/


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## cemab4y (Dec 14, 2017)

also see

https://www.myfreemasonry.com/threa...-see-changed-in-the-masonic-experience.12617/


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## Glen Cook (Dec 14, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> I have thought about this topic frequently, and even started discussions on this board. I believe sincerely, that we can keep true to our ancient landmarks, and still make Masonry relevant to the 21st century man. We can upgrade and modernize some of our administrative procedures, and streamline the process. We can publish our minutes on line. We can enable members to pay dues online. We can revive some of our practices, which were very popular decades ago. I would love to see the lodges revive the Masonic Employment bureaus. I have suffered the scourge of unemployment, and I can tell you, the state employment agencies just AIN'T CUTTIN' IT!



A number of my bodies already circulate minutes by email and allow electronic payment, either by Paypal or standing order.  Have you made a motion in your lodge to do so?  When did you last attend your lodge? 

I don’t think the fraternity has the resources to run an employment bureau, and certainly doesn’t have the expertise found in public agencies, or even private groups, such as LDS Employment Services. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 14, 2017)

jermy Bell said:


> If your looking for a pat on the back , or recognized for something you did, then I think masonry is not for you.


Agreed.


cemab4y said:


> We can revive some of our practices, which were very popular decades ago. I would love to see the lodges revive the Masonic Employment bureaus.


Great idea!


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## cemab4y (Dec 14, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> A number of my bodies already circulate minutes by email and allow electronic payment, either by Paypal or standing order.  Have you made a motion in your lodge to do so?
> -Yes
> 
> 
> ...



-How can you assert that "the fraternity" does not does not have the resources to run an employment assistance bureau? I am certain that some Grand Lodges could provide administrative support to their lodges, and some would not .  I have been unemployed several times. I have sought out the services from the state employment services in KY, MO, TN,VA,NJ,etc. Over the past 25 years, I can tell you, that they are all uniformly bad. My brother just moved to NC, and he has a job. His wife went to the state employment bureau (NC), and all they had was Wal-Mart greeters, and box-stackers. (His wife has a college degree, and she has 15 years in public relations. )

During the depression of the 1930's Masonic lodges did a terrific job, in assisting members in securing employment. We did it before, we can do it again.


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## cemab4y (Dec 14, 2017)

As our membership declines, we are experiencing an increase in the number of Masonic widows. I would love for our lodges to reach out to our widows, and provide them with assistance. Simple things like a poinsettia (sp?) plant at Christmas, or a fruit-basket. A yearly "widow's appreciation" banquet at the lodge. The one demographic that is increasing in Masonry, is the number of widows.


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## cemab4y (Dec 14, 2017)

One topic that I have thought about for many years, is "Sweat equity". I believe that support your local lodge, and Grand Lodge, does not end with dues payment. Every mason (who is able) should be given a "calling", and encourage him to support his lodge, with labor and expertise. Men who have experience in heating/ventilation/air conditioning, could assist in keeping the building system maintained. Members with experience in IT, could assist on the lodge website committee. Members with writing experience, could assist with the lodge newsletter (either print or on-line), and so forth.

The WM should assemble a roster of the various areas, where the lodge needs assistance. Members can volunteer to help, in their area of expertise. If no particular job is apparent, the man can serve as a go-fer. I am certain that many men would like to assist with "sweat equity", but have never been asked.


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## LK600 (Dec 14, 2017)

Can I create a list?


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## hanzosbm (Dec 14, 2017)

Well, while I'm not sure of the extent to which you were looking for an employment assistance bureau, I do wish that there was better networking among Masons.  Here are a few items I'd love to see:

A list where I could see (and also search) for a brother's company and role.  Both for networking in trying to get a job, and for employing someone for a service you're in need of.  I struggled for awhile to get a job at my last company and once I did, found out that there were several brothers who worked there who all said "I wish I'd have known, I could've greased the wheels to getting you hired".  There are a lot of lodges around here, so it's not realistic to know every brother and where they work.  Likewise, I needed to hire a contractor awhile ago.  I'd love to be able to give that work to a brother if possible, but without knowing if there was a Mason in the area who was a contractor, I had to go to the yellow pages.

A service for helping brothers move.  I have moved more times that I'd like to remember, and when the day comes, I'm either begging for help from 2 or 3 friends and end up working ourselves to death, or spending a TON of money on professional movers.  If there was some kind of electronic volunteer board where I could sign up to be notified when a brother in the area was moving so I could help out, in exchange for help when I need to move, that would be a godsend.  Have you ever moved where you had 50 people helping?  I did once, and it was amazingly simple for everyone involved.  Imagine 50 brothers, who you may or may not know, showing up to help you move and having it all done in an hour.  I'd be happy to spend an hour each weekend helping others.

Now, I'm not saying that these are the changes in Masonry I'd like to see (as was the original point of the post), but I think these things would be amazing.


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## dfreybur (Dec 14, 2017)

When I was in Illinois the GL added a job board on its web site.  I didn't see a single job posted.  I think this is why state employment agencies do not work well.  Each of us can do at least as well on the many job boards on line.

I have seen Shrines attempt employment services.  No idea how well it works.  As mentioned I think networking of who is at what company would work.  I've seen Shrine membership tables with who does what work, which is similar but not the same.

I currently use LinkedIn for connections.  This includes letting recruiters know when I am looking.  The connections on LinkedIn partially handle the person to person networking aspect of who works at what company.  The fact that recruiters use LinkedIn to mine for both jobs and candidates supplies the employment agency aspect.


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## hanzosbm (Dec 14, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> When I was in Illinois the GL added a job board on its web site.  I didn't see a single job posted.  I think this is why state employment agencies do not work well.  Each of us can do at least as well on the many job boards on line.
> 
> I have seen Shrines attempt employment services.  No idea how well it works.  As mentioned I think networking of who is at what company would work.  I've seen Shrine membership tables with who does what work, which is similar but not the same.
> 
> I currently use LinkedIn for connections.  This includes letting recruiters know when I am looking.  The connections on LinkedIn partially handle the person to person networking aspect of who works at what company.  The fact that recruiters use LinkedIn to mine for both jobs and candidates supplies the employment agency aspect.


I agree, and I use LinkedIn also (for anyone reading this and not using it, you're wrong!  Get on it.  I went from begging and groveling to find jobs to having recruiters coming after me with extremely lucrative offers.  Within 2 weeks of polishing my LinkedIn profile and being open to offers, I got and accepted a job offer for a 65% pay increase).
But, I'd love to see something as simple as our Grand Lodge site (which already lists every brother and usually his contact info) having a section where each brother could voluntarily add their company, position, and maybe some keywords on their professional skills.


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 14, 2017)

I belong to a Missouri lodge. We sing 'odes' at opening and closing. Singing? Sounds more like universal groaning. I would do away with the ode singing thing.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 14, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> -How can you assert that "the fraternity" does not does not have the resources to run an employment assistance bureau? I am certain that some Grand Lodges could provide administrative support to their lodges, and some would not .  I have been unemployed several times. I have sought out the services from the state employment services in KY, MO, TN,VA,NJ,etc. Over the past 25 years, I can tell you, that they are all uniformly bad. My brother just moved to NC, and he has a job. His wife went to the state employment bureau (NC), and all they had was Wal-Mart greeters, and box-stackers. (His wife has a college degree, and she has 15 years in public relations. )
> 
> During the depression of the 1930's Masonic lodges did a terrific job, in assisting members in securing employment. We did it before, we can do it again.


Because I’m actually involved in the fraternity and understand it’s not just s financial commitment, but one of a knowledge base. We  no longer have the company owners represented in the fraternity as we once did either.  That family can’t find good jobs is irrelevant as to whether the fraternity can handle this

While it is disappointing you’ve had unemployment, that is irrelevant as to whether the fraternity can manage this task.

Do you have a citation for how well the fraternity did in the depression in this endeavour?

You missed my question as to when you last attended lodge.


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## LK600 (Dec 15, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> We  no longer have the company owners represented in the fraternity as we once did either.  That family can’t find good jobs is irrelevant as to whether the fraternity can handle this
> 
> While it is disappointing you’ve had unemployment, that is irrelevant as to whether the fraternity can manage this task.



Maybe he is referring to something concrete, but I would suggest it is EVERY Brothers duty to assist a Brother down on his luck whether that be helping him locate a job, pulling strings, or vouching for the same.   We are either Brothers or we are not?  I can see how something concrete like an actual bureau might be beyond the Fraternities means unless it was much like a self posting jobs board.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 15, 2017)

LK600 said:


> I would suggest it is EVERY Brothers duty to assist a Brother down on his luck whether that be helping him locate a job, pulling strings, or vouching for the same. We are either Brothers or we are not?


Agreed.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 15, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Agreed.


We three do agree.


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## hanzosbm (Dec 15, 2017)

LK600 said:


> I can see how something concrete like an actual bureau might be beyond the Fraternities means unless it was much like a self posting jobs board.



And that is the kind of thing that I think we could, and should do.  I don't know about other states, but here in CA the Grand Lodge's website has a members section where you can search for other brothers.  I would like to see there be an optional section where a brother could include their company, role, and a few keywords that could be searched.  That would be a fairly simple change to the website and the rest of the effort would fall to the individual.  That way, if I'm looking for a job in Project Management, I could search brothers in my area who are also in that field, or if I am applying for a job at Bob's House of Lawnmowers, I can search to see if there are any brothers who work there that I could contact and ask for a recommendation or some pointers.


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## hanzosbm (Dec 15, 2017)

hanzosbm said:


> And that is the kind of thing that I think we could, and should do.  I don't know about other states, but here in CA the Grand Lodge's website has a members section where you can search for other brothers.  I would like to see there be an optional section where a brother could include their company, role, and a few keywords that could be searched.  That would be a fairly simple change to the website and the rest of the effort would fall to the individual.  That way, if I'm looking for a job in Project Management, I could search brothers in my area who are also in that field, or if I am applying for a job at Bob's House of Lawnmowers, I can search to see if there are any brothers who work there that I could contact and ask for a recommendation or some pointers.





pointwithinacircle2 said:


> When I stopped waiting for someone else to make the Lodge glamorous and starting standing up in Lodge and educating the Brothers myself.



It dawned on me that I sat here (literally with a cup of coffee in hand) complaining about things and saying how "someone should do this!".  So, I took brother pointwithinacircle2's example and emailed the administrator for our Grand Lodge website suggesting the changes.  No telling what will come of it, but I'm assured that NOTHING will come of it if I just sit here complaining. 
I would encourage all the brethren reading this to reach out to your respective Grand Lodges and make suggestions for what you'd like to see.  Let's make it happen.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Dec 15, 2017)

Rifleman1776 said:


> I belong to a Missouri lodge. We sing 'odes' at opening and closing. Singing? Sounds more like universal groaning. I would do away with the ode singing thing.


The Brothers used to sing in my grandfathers Lodge.  But they did it with gusto!


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Dec 15, 2017)

The ritual in my state of origin uses the word inculcate.  Perhaps it is true that, if we do not inculcate the lessons of Masonry all other changes will be moot.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 18, 2017)

hanzosbm said:


> I agree, and I use LinkedIn also (for anyone reading this and not using it, you're wrong!  Get on it.  I went from begging and groveling to find jobs to having recruiters coming after me with extremely lucrative offers.  Within 2 weeks of polishing my LinkedIn profile and being open to offers, I got and accepted a job offer for a 65% pay increase).
> But, I'd love to see something as simple as our Grand Lodge site (which already lists every brother and usually his contact info) having a section where each brother could voluntarily add their company, position, and maybe some keywords on their professional skills.


I wish I could agree about LinkedIn. I've been a member since 2006, at my high point, I had over 4500 connections, lots of recruiters. I never had one contact me with a job offer. I've been under employed since 2010 when I lost my job as Director of Marketing. I found a few jobs but none have lasted a year, except for my college teaching job as an adjunct (part time) instructor, which I've had for the last 5 years. I have an MBA and 35 years experience in the HVAC field 15 of those in Marketing. I'm almost 60 now and semi retired, but it was tough when I was actively looking.

I've since reduced my connections down to about 800 people that I actually know, or have corresponded to through work or through Masonry.


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## cemab4y (Dec 18, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Because I’m actually involved in the fraternity and understand it’s not just s financial commitment, but one of a knowledge base.
> 
> --ALL masons are "actually" involved in the fraternity. The depth and intensity of their involvement varies.
> 
> ...



-- I last attended my mother lodge in Kentucky, in October 0f 2010, when I was in Kentucky at the time of my father's death. I reside in Virginia, and attending my mother lodge is difficult. I have attended lodges in other states, since then. I do a LOT of international work, and attending lodge is not always possible.


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## cemab4y (Dec 18, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> A number of my bodies already circulate minutes by email and allow electronic payment, either by Paypal or standing order.  Have you made a motion in your lodge to do so?  When did you last attend your lodge?
> 
> I don’t think the fraternity has the resources to run an employment bureau, and certainly doesn’t have the expertise found in public agencies, or even private groups, such as LDS Employment Services. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.




How can you state, that the fraternity does not have the resources? Are you an expert on all 51+ Grand Lodges in the USA, and all of the subordinate lodges in the USA? I am certain that some Grand Lodges could re-open their employment services. Some Grand lodges may already have such bureaus currently operating, I do not know. Some lodges in the USA, might have members who are expert in assisting people in seeking employment. Some might have members who are job-placement specialists.  My mother lodge has an individual who is retired from the state employment service.

I have some acquaintance with the LDS employment bureaus (They help anyone who asks for help, church membership is not required, just like their family history centers do not require church membership). The bureaus are staffed by volunteers, and they use the employment literature provided by the church (and non-church manuals,etc. as well).


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## Glen Cook (Dec 18, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> -- I last attended my mother lodge in Kentucky, in October 0f 2010, when I was in Kentucky at the time of my father's death. I reside in Virginia, and attending my mother lodge is difficult. I have attended lodges in other states, since then. I do a LOT of international work, and attending lodge is not always possible.


You avoided the question. When did you last attend lodge?


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## Glen Cook (Dec 18, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> How can you state, that the fraternity does not have the resources? Are you an expert on all 51+ Grand Lodges in the USA, and all of the subordinate lodges in the USA? I am certain that some Grand Lodges could re-open their employment services. Some Grand lodges may already have such bureaus currently operating, I do not know. Some lodges in the USA, might have members who are expert in assisting people in seeking employment. Some might have members who are job-placement specialists.  My mother lodge has an individual who is retired from the state employment service.
> 
> I have some acquaintance with the LDS employment bureaus (They help anyone who asks for help, church membership is not required, just like their family history centers do not require church membership). The bureaus are staffed by volunteers, and they use the employment literature provided by the church (and non-church manuals,etc. as well).


An expert in all?   No.  But I have a general familiarity based on attending meetings throughout the US and GM Conference.  For instance NY is apparently laying off office employees and has a reduction in membership. This is a consistent theme throughout the fraternity. There is also the issue of expertise and resources, as we no longer have the business owners we once had. 

What evidence do you have that the employment bureaus worked? 

So, you agree that other agencies, such as LDS Employment Services are available?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Dec 19, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Because I’m actually involved in the fraternity and understand it’s not just s financial commitment, but one of a knowledge base. We  no longer have the company owners represented in the fraternity as we once did either.  That family can’t find good jobs is irrelevant as to whether the fraternity can handle this
> 
> While it is disappointing you’ve had unemployment, that is irrelevant as to whether the fraternity can manage this task.
> 
> ...


Glen you made a good point, now let me pick your brain for a second. Why do you believe the "company owners" we once had have vanished ?

Sent from my LG-LS997 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Dontrell Stroman (Dec 19, 2017)

"Employment bureaus " At one time certain GLS had employment resources ? Someone please elaborate.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Glen Cook (Dec 19, 2017)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Glen you made a good point, now let me pick your brain for a second. Why do you believe the "company owners" we once had have vanished ?
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS997 using My Freemasonry mobile app


I’m afraid I lack the creativity to do more than point  to the reasons generally for the decline in the Craft.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Dec 19, 2017)

I wonder if maybe due to other organizations such as the ruitan Club etc ?

Sent from my LG-LS997 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## dfreybur (Dec 19, 2017)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Why do you believe the "company owners" we once had have vanished ?



It isn't good that we don't invite them to petition.  Rotary definitely invites business owners to membership.  They are our competition.

Men who own their own shops work hard, work many hours, are responsible for the livelihood of others.  They would mostly make good Brothers.  In the 1800s there was a tradition of shop owners as Brothers.  That's clear from the previous generation of Scottish Rite degrees.

I don't know exactly when invitations stopped but I suspect it was after the AASR was organized after the Civil War.


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## Georgi Ivanov (Dec 19, 2017)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> The ritual in my state of origin uses the word inculcate.  Perhaps it is true that, if we do not inculcate the lessons of Masonry all other changes will be moot.



Great word!


Fraternally,
G∴I


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## cemab4y (Dec 19, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> You avoided the question. When did you last attend lodge?


I did not avoid the question. I ignored it. The time, date, and frequency of my lodge attendance is really none of your business. I suggest you drop it immediately. This is the best answer you are going to get. I suggest that you accept it and move on.


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## cemab4y (Dec 19, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> An expert in all?   No.  But I have a general familiarity based on attending meetings throughout the US and GM Conference.  For instance NY is apparently laying off office employees and has a reduction in membership. This is a consistent theme throughout the fraternity. There is also the issue of expertise and resources, as we no longer have the business owners we once had.
> 
> What evidence do you have that the employment bureaus worked?
> 
> So, you agree that other agencies, such as LDS Employment Services are available?



Masonry is losing members nationally. No dispute. I am continually amazed at the number of Masons who are convinced that Masonry is growing, and that everything is just fine. I have heard "My lodge initiated three new men last year".

I have no specific data, that the employment bureaus (in the 1930s) were successful.  Since there were few publicly-operated employment agencies, it is safe to assume, that at least some of the (masonic) bureaus were successful in steering Masons towards employment.

Of course, there are many (non-government) employment services available. Some churches assist their members in locating employment. The LDS is one of the largest. Some service clubs, like the Jaycees, and Kiwanis,etc certainly assist their members in seeking employment. So what? Our craft can join them.

Point is: I am continually unimpressed with the state-operated employment services. I have utilized them in KY, NJ, TN. VA.etc. and they are all uniformly bad. Here in Fairfax county, VA, there are more internet servers than in any county in the world. Sprint, Verizon, AT&T, Lucent, etc. all have big operations here. I am a telecom engineer, and when I last went to the VA dept of employment security (what a joke) they had nothing in telecom or computer systems.

My brother and his wife just moved to Charlotte NC. My sister-in-law has a background in public relations and the NC employment agency had no jobs, except for stacking boxes, and janitorial and food service,etc.


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## cemab4y (Dec 19, 2017)

One more time:

(your question
 When did you last attend your lodge?



(my answer) :

- I attended my mother lodge, when I went back to KY, for my father's death (My mother chose not to have a masonic funeral). I live in VA, and I do a lot of international work. I choose to keep my membership with my mother lodge in KY. I am able to visit lodges overseas, and when I am back in the USA, I visit lodges in VA/MD/DC. What difference does that make? I am just as much as a Mason, as if I lived next door to my mother lodge, and attended every meeting. If regular lodge attendance (at your mother lodge) were a requirement for Masonry, you would have to expel all of the retired people who live in Florida, and keep their membership in other states.

My father passed away in October 2010.

Your question is answered. Move on


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## cemab4y (Dec 19, 2017)

Travelling Man91 said:


> "Employment bureaus " At one time certain GLS had employment resources ? Someone please elaborate.
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS997 using My Freemasonry mobile app



Back in the 1930's, and for some time after, many Grand Lodges, and subordinate lodges had employment assistance bureaus, which assisted unemployed masons ( and dependents, and masonic widows,etc) in seeking employment. Masons would learn about jobs "through the grapevine", and communicate any openings to the job bureau. Unemployed Masons would register with the bureau, and the bureau would inform the men, when a job came open. (keep in mind, that in the 1930's the state governments rarely had offices staffed with paid employees to assist the unemployed)


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## Dontrell Stroman (Dec 19, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> Back in the 1930's, and for some time after, many Grand Lodges, and subordinate lodges had employment assistance bureaus, which assisted unemployed masons ( and dependents, and masonic widows,etc) in seeking employment. Masons would learn about jobs "through the grapevine", and communicate any openings to the job bureau. Unemployed Masons would register with the bureau, and the bureau would inform the men, when a job came open. (keep in mind, that in the 1930's the state governments rarely had offices staffed with paid employees to assist the unemployed)


Thanks for the feedback, learned something new. Maybe this is why some modern day Freemasons refer to our late brothers as "Union" members.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Glen Cook (Dec 19, 2017)

I agree it is not my business per se, but when you give your opinion as to what others in Masonry should be doing or rely on your knowledge of the fraternity in giving an opinion, but you havent participated in years, your lack of participation and knowledge is relevant. 

 No one mentioned your mother lodge.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 19, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> One more time:
> 
> (your question
> When did you last attend your lodge?
> ...


No. You didn’t answer. When did you last attend any lodge?  
It is my understanding you haven’t traveled internationally for some time.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Dec 19, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> No. You didn’t answer. When did you last attend any lodge?
> It is my understanding you haven’t traveled internationally for some time.



Looks like his answer is October 2010.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 19, 2017)

Bro. Stewart P.M. said:


> Looks like his answer is October 2010.


Then I will move on.


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## jermy Bell (Dec 19, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> One topic that I have thought about for many years, is "Sweat equity". I believe that support your local lodge, and Grand Lodge, does not end with dues payment. Every mason (who is able) should be given a "calling", and encourage him to support his lodge, with labor and expertise. Men who have experience in heating/ventilation/air conditioning, could assist in keeping the building system maintained. Members with experience in IT, could assist on the lodge website committee. Members with writing experience, could assist with the lodge newsletter (either print or on-line), and so forth.
> 
> The WM should assemble a roster of the various areas, where the lodge needs assistance. Members can volunteer to help, in their area of expertise. If no particular job is apparent, the man can serve as a go-fer. I am certain that many men would like to assist with "sweat equity", but have never been asked.


At our lodge we have (3) contractors,  instead of donating time to the lodge they expect payment at the next business meeting. When my father in law was master 20 years ago, those with any experience of anything jumped in without having being asked and did what had to be done, and without expected payment.  It was for the lodge and then the lodge use to be like a second home. Now it' ask not what I can do for my lodge, but what can my lodge do for me.


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## David612 (Dec 20, 2017)

I think guys tend to get bogged down on lodge busy work rather than advancing their knowledge in masonry as there are only a few guys doing all the administrative/hospitality/maintenance work who tend to also write programs, present lectures and so on


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## Glen Cook (Dec 20, 2017)

David612 said:


> I think guys tend to get bogged down on lodge busy work rather than advancing their knowledge in masonry as there are only a few guys doing all the administrative/hospitality/maintenance work who tend to also write programs, present lectures and so on


I remember reading the GM of Utah address of c. 1874, bemoaning that of a lodge of 100; only ten came to lodge.


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## cemab4y (Dec 20, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> No. You didn’t answer. When did you last attend any lodge?
> It is my understanding you haven’t traveled internationally for some time.



I work as a civilian contractor for the US Department of Defense. I spent 10(ten)+ years in Iraq/Afghanistan/Kuwait, on various military projects. My work requires frequent travel, both in the continental USA and internationally. Most of my work is unclassified, but I am not at liberty to broadcast all of my travel.  I last attended my mother lodge in KY, in October 2010, when my father passed. (Sadly, my mother chose not to permit a Masonic funeral).

Since 2010, I have attended many lodges in the USA, and abroad. I have attended Yuma lodge #17, in Yuma, Arizona (2011), and Huntsville lodge #1 in Huntsville, Alabama (2013), and many other lodges. If you are all that interested, I can send you a photocopy of my Masonic passport, listing every lodge attendance I have made in the past decade.

I am at a loss, to understand why anyone would be interested in the time, location, and frequency of my lodge attendance. I am just as much of a Mason, as if I lived next door to my mother lodge, and attended every meeting.

It so happens, that I have had serious medical issues, and I had to be hospitalized during most of 2015. While hospitalized, I was unable to attend lodge. The local lodge in Perryville MD, was very kind, and brought me candy and laundry soap, etc.  When I was discharged from the hospital, I returned home to Alexandria VA, and I have attended lodges in the DC/MD/VA area since then, as well as other lodges in the USA.

I am NOT interested in telling anyone how to run their lodge. I am very interested in discussing how masons can work together in improving the craft, and making the craft more relevant to 21st century men.

Do not assume that my last lodge attendance was in 2010.


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## cemab4y (Dec 20, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> I agree it is not my business per se, but when you give your opinion as to what others in Masonry should be doing or rely on your knowledge of the fraternity in giving an opinion, but you havent participated in years, your lack of participation and knowledge is relevant.
> 
> No one mentioned your mother lodge.



I have been a Mason since 1982, 35 years in the Craft. I have been a member of 5(five) different lodges in four states. I have attended lodges in 14 states, and WashDC, and foreign countries. I have attended a Russian-speaking lodge in Moscow (I speak Russian), I have attended a German-speaking lodge in France (I speak German). I have an extensive Masonic library, and I have read many books on this subject. I have belonged to several appendant bodies, including the Scottish Rite(SJ), and the Shrine. I have assisted in degree work, and sponsored petitioners.

Because of my visitation in lodges all over the USA, from Arizona to New Hampshire, I have obtained a perspective that many Masons do not have.  I have sat in lodges, with men who risked being sent to concentration camp, for being a Mason. I have sat in a lodge with men, who risked being sent to Siberia, for being a Mason. I have delivered talks to both masonic and non-masonic audiences. I have attended (under cover) two anti-Masonic conferences. I have written articles, and they have been published in masonic journals.

Why do you think that I have not participated in Freemasonry? Why do you think that I have a lack of participation and knowledge?


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## cemab4y (Dec 20, 2017)

Bro. Stewart P.M. said:


> Looks like his answer is October 2010.



I have attended (as a visitor) many lodge meetings, since 2010. I last attended my mother lodge in October 2010.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 20, 2017)

It’s a simple question which you refuse to answer:  when did you last attend lodge? 

Your statement is “we work together...”. There is no we. You aren’t involved in Freemasonry. That’s my point. You aren’t out there in the quarries, and it isn’t because you are traveling. It’s been years since you worked [edit: out of country] for a civilian contractor.
It’s been years since you were involved in Freemasonry.

You’ve been bringing the same ideas to various platforms for  years, telling others what they should do, but doing nothing yourself. 

You do not respond to questions, such as a citations as to how well these employment bureaus worked; why the fraternity should duplicate a process which already exists in private and state employment agencies; or even when you last attended a lodge.  You go on for a page for a three word answer.

I shall leave the conversation now, as I don’t think it is helpful to the list.


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## cemab4y (Dec 20, 2017)

hanzosbm said:


> I was recently sitting around discussing Masonry with some brothers, and inevitably, the topic came up of "you know what's wrong with Freemasonry?"
> 
> It seems that everyone I talk to has a different idea about what Freemasonry _should_ be, and in most cases, it is based on an idea of going back to some previous idea about how it used to be (whether that is true or not is a discussion for another time).  Some felt that we should operate more as an aide society to the brothers, not only financial, but also in terms of networking.  Others felt it was more about charity and doing good in the community.  Some preferred a more reflective and intellectual gathering.
> Regardless, it seems that everyone has a different idea on what it _should_ be, and I'd like to hear the thoughts of the brothers here.



I believe sincerely, that we can keep true to our ancient landmarks, and our "roots", and still make some administrative changes, and adaptations, that will enable our Craft to move forward into the 21st Century. As our membership cohort ages, we should be planning on having more "daylight" lodges, and meetings which are more accessible to retired persons.

A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus, said over 24 centuries ago, that "We live in a world, in which the only constant is change".


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## cemab4y (Dec 20, 2017)

LK600 said:


> Can I create a list?



What sort of list? If you do some snooping, I am sure that you can find some areas, where your lodge can incorporate some ideas.


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## Brother_Steve (Dec 20, 2017)

jermy Bell said:


> At our lodge we have (3) contractors,  instead of donating time to the lodge they expect payment at the next business meeting. When my father in law was master 20 years ago, those with any experience of anything jumped in without having being asked and did what had to be done, and without expected payment.  It was for the lodge and then the lodge use to be like a second home. Now it' ask not what I can do for my lodge, but what can my lodge do for me.


I'm a surveyor and I'm going to survey the lodge for free.  However, it is getting done when I have free time to do it. Unfortunately, technology and tools have propagated their way into various industries to the point to where "free stuff" AKA "off the back of the truck" is harder to come by due to tracking, etc. That part that could be "brought" into lodge now has to be paid for out of the Brother's pocket. Should he have to absorb that cost? That is not fair to him, either.

Simple stuff? sure. Changing a switch out for a light could be absorbed by someone, but lets face it. Nowadays, if you replace a light fixture and the place burns down because of it, you better be able to prove a licensed guy did the work or your fire hazard insurance can tell you to punch sand.


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## cemab4y (Dec 20, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> It’s a simple question which you refuse to answer:  when did you last attend lodge?
> 
> Your statement is “we work together...”. There is no we. You aren’t involved in Freemasonry. That’s my point. You aren’t out there in the quarries, and it isn’t because you are traveling. It’s been years since you worked for a civilian contractor.
> 
> ...


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## cemab4y (Dec 20, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> It isn't good that we don't invite them to petition.  Rotary definitely invites business owners to membership.  They are our competition.
> 
> Men who own their own shops work hard, work many hours, are responsible for the livelihood of others.  They would mostly make good Brothers.  In the 1800s there was a tradition of shop owners as Brothers.  That's clear from the previous generation of Scottish Rite degrees.
> 
> I don't know exactly when invitations stopped but I suspect it was after the AASR was organized after the Civil War.



Some Grand Lodges, permit invitation. Most, unhappily, do not. The Grand Lodge of Virginia had a YWMAGM program some years ago. (You would make a good Mason). The GL dropped it.


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## cemab4y (Dec 20, 2017)

For the record: I am not interested in telling any individual Mason, or any lodge, nor any Grand Lodge, what they should do. What individuals/lodges/GLs do is up to themselves. They can make changes, and adapt our Craft to the 21st Century, or they can do nothing, and watch the Craft decline and disappear.

"If you do nothing, you get nothing" -Aung San Suu Kyi, Nobel peace prize winner, 20 years under house arrest.


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## cemab4y (Dec 20, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> I'm a surveyor and I'm going to survey the lodge for free.  However, it is getting done when I have free time to do it. Unfortunately, technology and tools have propagated their way into various industries to the point to where "free stuff" AKA "off the back of the truck" is harder to come by due to tracking, etc. That part that could be "brought" into lodge now has to be paid for out of the Brother's pocket. Should he have to absorb that cost? That is not fair to him, either.
> 
> Simple stuff? sure. Changing a switch out for a light could be absorbed by someone, but lets face it. Nowadays, if you replace a light fixture and the place burns down because of it, you better be able to prove a licensed guy did the work or your fire hazard insurance can tell you to punch sand.



Sadly, your points are well-taken. If a mason does some work for the lodge, and there are expenses involved, then of course, the lodge should bear the cost. It is not fair for a man to come in on a Saturday, and mop and clean the floor, and expect him to pay for his own mop, bucket, and floor cleaner solution.

Nevertheless, I believe that many men would be more than glad to contribute some time and "sweat" to their lodge, if only they were asked. It is my experience, than most Masons are somewhat reserved and shy, are not comfortable stepping up and saying, "I volunteer to push the lawn mower around the yard this weekend.

My mother lodge has annual "garden parties", where members bring their own rakes, mowers, yard tools, etc. The members trim the yard, remove trash and debris,etc.


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## Brother_Steve (Dec 20, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> It is not fair for a man to come in on a Saturday, and mop and clean the floor, and expect him to pay for his own mop, bucket, and floor cleaner solution.
> 
> Nevertheless, I believe that many men would be more than glad to contribute some time and "sweat" to their lodge, if only they were asked.


Out last master designated rooms that each officer was responsible for. That practice was not carried over with the new master.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 20, 2017)

Some lodges will cover a brother's dues if he cuts the lawn twice a month or so. That's always a good selling point. I know my lodge in OK said if I'd cut the lawn for four or five years, they would cover my dues and give me a perpetual membership.


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## cemab4y (Dec 20, 2017)

I have observed that nothing gets Masons more "riled up", that the prospect of One-Day classes. Some masons call them "McMasons". Here in metro WashDC, where I live and work, some people spend two hours in the morning, and two hours in the evening commuting. That means they are spending four hours a day, getting back and forth to work, and 20 hours a week, in motion.

Men who do this, rarely have time to attend a lodge, and participate in Freemasonry. Why not have more degree work on the weekends? and instead of one-day classes, have men complete the standard degrees on Saturday mornings? 

This is more of an adaptation, than a "change". What do you think?


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## CLewey44 (Dec 20, 2017)

My old lodge actually did degrees whenever was best for the group and initiate/brother. That included Saturday mornings. It made for a busy time but it allowed for growth.


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## cemab4y (Dec 20, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> My old lodge actually did degrees whenever was best for the group and initiate/brother. That included Saturday mornings. It made for a busy time but it allowed for growth.



Bravo! Growth is the only evidence of life.


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## cemab4y (Dec 20, 2017)

One topic that gets many Masons upset is the prospect of recruiting, and inviting men into the fraternity. Some states permit open recruiting, and you may ask an individual to join up. Other states forbid all recruiting.  I believe that the "tired dogmas of the peaceful past, are inadequate to the stormy present". 

Put it this way, if forbidding invitations is so terrific, then why is Masonry declining in membership? I believe sincerely, that there are many good men, who are out there, who would make excellent Masons, are waiting for an invitation that will never come. The fraternity loses, by not having these men, and the potential Masons lose, by never knowing how to ask for a petition. 

What do you think?


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## David612 (Dec 20, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> One topic that gets many Masons upset is the prospect of recruiting, and inviting men into the fraternity. Some states permit open recruiting, and you may ask an individual to join up. Other states forbid all recruiting.  I believe that the "tired dogmas of the peaceful past, are inadequate to the stormy present".
> 
> Put it this way, if forbidding invitations is so terrific, then why is Masonry declining in membership? I believe sincerely, that there are many good men, who are out there, who would make excellent Masons, are waiting for an invitation that will never come. The fraternity loses, by not having these men, and the potential Masons lose, by never knowing how to ask for a petition.
> 
> What do you think?


People invite people be it directly or indirectly regardless of their grand lodges offical position on it.
Out of curiosity do we know what our numbers where like prior to each of the world wars?


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## David612 (Dec 20, 2017)

I would also change the emphasis on traveling, make your home lodge your priority.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 20, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> I have observed that nothing gets Masons more "riled up", that the prospect of One-Day classes. Some masons call them "McMasons". Here in metro WashDC, where I live and work, some people spend two hours in the morning, and two hours in the evening commuting. That means they are spending four hours a day, getting back and forth to work, and 20 hours a week, in motion.
> 
> Men who do this, rarely have time to attend a lodge, and participate in Freemasonry. Why not have more degree work on the weekends? and instead of one-day classes, have men complete the standard degrees on Saturday mornings?
> 
> This is more of an adaptation, than a "change". What do you think?


We try to schedule around the petitioner's schedule but we are small city without long commutes so we usually shoot for a weeknight but would do a Saturday or even a Sunday evening if necessary.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 20, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> One topic that gets many Masons upset is the prospect of recruiting, and inviting men into the fraternity. Some states permit open recruiting, and you may ask an individual to join up. Other states forbid all recruiting.  I believe that the "tired dogmas of the peaceful past, are inadequate to the stormy present".
> 
> Put it this way, if forbidding invitations is so terrific, then why is Masonry declining in membership? I believe sincerely, that there are many good men, who are out there, who would make excellent Masons, are waiting for an invitation that will never come. The fraternity loses, by not having these men, and the potential Masons lose, by never knowing how to ask for a petition.
> 
> What do you think?


I was asked to join by a friend from church 30 years ago and timing wasn't right. I waited 30 years for someone to ask me again and it never happened. It took my son to say that some of his friends were masons and he was thinking about joining the lodge. I told him if he joined I wanted to join and the rest is history, abet a short history.

I've talked to some young guys and they never heard of Masonry or Freemasonry. So maybe we just have to get the word out, or better yet, maybe we just have to find a way to get the members who don't participate, more active.


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## David612 (Dec 20, 2017)

There is a lot of focus on getting people to join and no interest in what they find once they have joined.
If we focus on the quality of our work, continue to develop and be attractive to candidates then people will join of their own accord.
Have a read of “a Traditional Observance Lodge” and see what you think.


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## cemab4y (Dec 21, 2017)

David612 said:


> People invite people be it directly or indirectly regardless of their grand lodges offical position on it.
> Out of curiosity do we know what our numbers where like prior to each of the world wars?



Check out

http://www.msana.com/msastats_14to15.asp

Read it an weep!!!


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## hanzosbm (Dec 21, 2017)

Okay, now, show me the stats on how many quality members there were over the years.

Obviously, a rhetorical request, but my point is, numbers don't show anything to do with the quality.  I am 100% against inviting men to join.  In fact, I think it is far too blasé as it is.  Duly and truly prepared isn't about the way he's dressed, he has to be ready for Masonry before seeking admission.  Seek, Ask, Knock, remember the lesson there.  Freemasonry has been dumbed down far too much as it is, trying to blanketly increase numbers will accomplish that goal, but at what cost?


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## cemab4y (Dec 21, 2017)

David612 said:


> People invite people be it directly or indirectly regardless of their grand lodges offical position on it.
> Out of curiosity do we know what our numbers where like prior to each of the world wars?



Here are the membership stats, which are provided by the Masonic Service Association of North America.

http://www.msana.com/msastats_14to15.asp

Read them and weep!!!


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## cemab4y (Dec 21, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> I was asked to join by a friend from church 30 years ago and timing wasn't right. I waited 30 years for someone to ask me again and it never happened. It took my son to say that some of his friends were masons and he was thinking about joining the lodge. I told him if he joined I wanted to join and the rest is history, abet a short history.
> 
> I've talked to some young guys and they never heard of Masonry or Freemasonry. So maybe we just have to get the word out, or better yet, maybe we just have to find a way to get the members who don't participate, more active.



There is the problem. 75 and even 50 years ago, men joined the same organizations and clubs, that their parents did. WW2 scattered the population, and emptied the rural areas. With less than 2% of our population living in rural areas, we are an urban society.

I have seen some terrific documentaries on History channel and Discovery, dealing with Masonry, most of them are excellent. If you google "Freemasonry" you will get over a million hits. The "word" is there, and the word is "out", just that young men are not getting the message.

As our membership cohort declines, and lodges close, there will be even less interest, and the fraternity will continue to spiral downwards, and die.

Freemasonry can arrest this trend, and we can get our lodges back to growing again.

Only if, we have the courage and determination, to put the processes and chains of the past, behind us.

"The peaceful dogmas of the past, are inadequate to the stormy present" - Abraham Lincoln (not a freemason)


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## cemab4y (Dec 21, 2017)

hanzosbm said:


> Okay, now, show me the stats on how many quality members there were over the years.
> 
> Obviously, a rhetorical request, but my point is, numbers don't show anything to do with the quality.  I am 100% against inviting men to join.  In fact, I think it is far too blasé as it is.  Duly and truly prepared isn't about the way he's dressed, he has to be ready for Masonry before seeking admission.  Seek, Ask, Knock, remember the lesson there.  Freemasonry has been dumbed down far too much as it is, trying to blanketly increase numbers will accomplish that goal, but at what cost?



Quality is a subjective determination. If you ask two Masons, what is a "quality Mason", you will probably get three opinions. You are quite correct, that numbers do not show quality.

Inviting prospective candidates to join, is not "dumbing down" the fraternity. If you ask a man with a Ph.D. degree to consider Freemasonry, are you going to "dumb down" anything? I believe that when we are permitted to solicit members, we can approach men with education, and men of quality. When you must wait for candidates to come to the West Gate, of their own free will, you are stuck with what comes in!

Consider that!


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 21, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> Quality is a subjective determination. If you ask two Masons, what is a "quality Mason", you will probably get three opinions. You are quite correct, that numbers do not show quality.


True.


cemab4y said:


> Inviting prospective candidates to join, is not "dumbing down" the fraternity. If you ask a man with a Ph.D. degree to consider Freemasonry, are you going to "dumb down" anything? I believe that when we are permitted to solicit members, we can approach men with education, and men of quality. When you must wait for candidates to come to the West Gate, of their own free will, you are stuck with what comes in!
> 
> Consider that!


It is, indeed, something to consider.


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## cemab4y (Dec 21, 2017)

David612 said:


> I would also change the emphasis on traveling, make your home lodge your priority.



I am not sure what you mean. I have been a Mason for over 35 years, but I have never encountered any "emphasis" on traveling (to other lodges). I know many Masons, who are terrified of visiting a different lodge, because they feel that they could not stand the examination.

Of course, a Mason should support his mother lodge, as a priority. (When possible! My mother lodge is 500 miles from my residence). But visiting other lodges, is part of the "wages" of a Master Mason.

Many lodges, do not have adequate degree staff, and they rely on nearby lodges for personnel to complete their degree teams.


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## hanzosbm (Dec 21, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> As our membership cohort declines, and lodges close, there will be even less interest, and the fraternity will continue to spiral downwards, and die.


What's wrong with lodges closing?  Seriously.  Everyone acts like this is such a horrible thing.  Have you considered the idea that maybe there are too many lodges?  Everyone keeps talking about the post WWII membership numbers.  So what?  If you want Rotary club, they're accepting applications.  I, for one, have no interest in throwing open the doors to everyone who wants to socialize.



cemab4y said:


> Freemasonry can arrest this trend, and we can get our lodges back to growing again.


To what end?  What does growth accomplish?

I would estimate that in a given lodge of 200 Masons, 30 might actually be active.  Of those 30, 15 are there purely for the social aspect, which can be found in many other organizations, and sit in the back and sleep through most of the meetings (literally or figuratively).  Of the remaining 15, you have a mixture of brothers who want a few extra acronyms to list after their names, men who feel a duty to keep the lodge alive but would probably not be active if someone else was willing to bear the burden, and those who are genuinely interested in Freemasonry's teachings and lessons.  Let's say be generous and say that 10 fall into that last category.  That's 5%.  The rest could easily find what they're looking for somewhere else.  Mathematically, that tells me that we could have 5% of the lodges we do now, with 200 masons each and retain the same number of quality Masons. 

"But with such a small footprint, how will we be visible enough to attract new members?"  Men who are genuinely interested in what we will do will find us.  They always have.  From times and places when Freemasonry was literally outlawed, to the ancient Mystery schools which were essentially secret societies.  They continued to survive, and we will too.


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## hanzosbm (Dec 21, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> Inviting prospective candidates to join, is not "dumbing down" the fraternity. If you ask a man with a Ph.D. degree to consider Freemasonry, are you going to "dumb down" anything?


Absolutely.  Dumbing down Freemasonry has nothing to do with the intelligence of the candidate, but rather the requirements and standards of the institution.



cemab4y said:


> When you must wait for candidates to come to the West Gate, of their own free will, you are stuck with what comes in!


Not at all.  That's what black cubes are for.


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## cemab4y (Dec 21, 2017)

hanzosbm said:


> What's wrong with lodges closing?  Seriously.  Everyone acts like this is such a horrible thing.  Have you considered the idea that maybe there are too many lodges?  Everyone keeps talking about the post WWII membership numbers.  So what?  If you want Rotary club, they're accepting applications.  I, for one, have no interest in throwing open the doors to everyone who wants to socialize.
> 
> -- Two(2) lodges that I have belonged to in the past (Master Builder #911, Tonawanda NY, and Glebe lodge #181, Arlington VA) have closed (more accurately, they consolidated with nearby lodges). One lodge in my (former) town, closed entirely, and made no effort to consolidate. These lodges are "gone with the wind", and will never come back.
> 
> ...


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## hanzosbm (Dec 21, 2017)

As I reflect on this disagreement, I realize that this is EXACTLY the point of this forum topic in the first place.

We all have very different ideas about what Freemasonry _should_ be.  At the moment, in my opinion, it is try to be too much to too many people and because of that, it is failing.  Jack of all trades, master of none.  Our fraternity doesn't have enough focus.  We're a social organization.  We're a charitable society.  We're a philosophical group.  And regarding membership, we tell prospective members 'come on it, whatever you're looking for, we've got it!' only to have them turn away in disappointment when they find out that, yes, we have it, but it's one of 20 different focuses we have and none of them are done well.


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## hanzosbm (Dec 21, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> We have a screening and balloting procedure, so open invitations will not be "throwing open" any doors. If a man is unfit for the Craft, does it make any difference, if he was invited or not?



A very good point, but, I believe it does make a difference.  Sad though it is, most of the brethren don't REALLY get to know a prospect before voting on him.  We ask him some questions, do a background check, maybe even have dinner with him a few times.  We have to make that decision based on a limited amount of information.  For me, the question of whether this is something he wanted badly enough to seek out and put some effort into versus he showed up because his boss invited him and he didn't want to look bad, tells me something about his motivations.  Yes, you could simply ask him that same question, but actions speak louder than words.


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## David612 (Dec 21, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> I am not sure what you mean. I have been a Mason for over 35 years, but I have never encountered any "emphasis" on traveling (to other lodges). I know many Masons, who are terrified of visiting a different lodge, because they feel that they could not stand the examination.
> 
> Of course, a Mason should support his mother lodge, as a priority. (When possible! My mother lodge is 500 miles from my residence). But visiting other lodges, is part of the "wages" of a Master Mason.
> 
> Many lodges, do not have adequate degree staff, and they rely on nearby lodges for personnel to complete their degree teams.


If your mother lodge is 500 miles away why do you maintain the affiliation? What value do you get fro that?


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## CLewey44 (Dec 21, 2017)

David612 said:


> If your mother lodge is 500 miles away why do you maintain the affiliation? What value do you get fro that?


I can sort of understand this. Perhaps it's where his father or grandfather were members at or he just wants to support the brothers that raised him.


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## David612 (Dec 21, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> I can sort of understand this. Perhaps it's where his father or grandfather were members at or he just wants to support the brothers that raised him.


True and for a few dollars every year it’s no big propblem, only issue I see is being a constant visitor no one expects anything of you, you never need to learn work an in some temples you won’t even pay for a meal.
Of cause this is all moot if you have affiliated with another lodge in your new town?
As a visitor I always feel a bit of an outsider and so I should, I don’t belong in the way the brethren of that lodge do, but it’s great to meet people and see the level other lodges are working at.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 21, 2017)

Our Worshipful Master has said that you can drag a person into Masonry, and they might become a dues paying member and stick around but unless someone truly seeks us out, they will never be an active participating member. I can see that in my son and me. We sought out Masonry and we are active and taking advantage of all the craft has to offer. We have been on numerous lodge visits, we have two scheduled for next month in addition to our own stated meeting, we have participated in two Masonic funerals, and attended a Research Lodge. Each of these experiences has been enriching and rewarding and in their own way have strengthened my resolve to subdue my passions and improve myself.

We all have friends that could be Masons. We have the unique opportunity to show how Masonry has helped us grow and improve ourselves, we can gently create interest until they ask what they have to do to become a Mason, and then you invite them to a dinner and introduce them to your brothers.


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## hanzosbm (Dec 21, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> We all have friends that could be Masons. We have the unique opportunity to show how Masonry has helped us grow and improve ourselves, we can gently create interest until they ask what they have to do to become a Mason, and then you invite them to a dinner and introduce them to your brothers.


I agree.  And this is why I really liked the 2B1Ask1 idea.  I sympathize that there are men who believe they must be asked to join.  That little bit of misinformation and men waiting to be invited has probably kept us from gaining some great men.  I'm all for educating the public in that particular regard, but there's a difference between letting people know that they must take the first step and an all out marketing campaign, which seems to be going on in some places.


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## cemab4y (Dec 21, 2017)

David612 said:


> If your mother lodge is 500 miles away why do you maintain the affiliation? What value do you get fro that?



I choose to keep membership in the lodge I was raised in. (I have held memberships in other lodges, over the past 35 years). I participate as a visitor in many other lodges, depending on my situation. ( I am a telecom engineer, and my career has taken me from Maine to California, and over 18 years in foreign lands). My mother lodge is hurting, we had over 600 members, when I was raised in 1982, now we have less than 200. My mother lodge will probably have to close soon, and I want to contribute while they are still open. Also, if I am a member for 50 years, I will get free dues, there after.

The wages of a Master Mason, are symbolic, and are received, whether the brother lives across the street, or in Afghanistan or Mozambique.

I receive an excellent value from my lodge membership. After all, I joined the craft to "travel in foreign lands".


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## David612 (Dec 21, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> I choose to keep membership in the lodge I was raised in. (I have held memberships in other lodges, over the past 35 years). I participate as a visitor in many other lodges, depending on my situation. ( I am a telecom engineer, and my career has taken me from Maine to California, and over 18 years in foreign lands). My mother lodge is hurting, we had over 600 members, when I was raised in 1982, now we have less than 200. My mother lodge will probably have to close soon, and I want to contribute while they are still open. Also, if I am a member for 50 years, I will get free dues, there after.
> 
> The wages of a Master Mason, are symbolic, and are received, whether the brother lives across the street, or in Afghanistan or Mozambique.
> 
> I receive an excellent value from my lodge membership. After all, I joined the craft to "travel in foreign lands".


How much are your mother lodges dues? My lodge is about $450 per year


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## cemab4y (Dec 21, 2017)

David612 said:


> True and for a few dollars every year it’s no big propblem, only issue I see is being a constant visitor no one expects anything of you, you never need to learn work an in some temples you won’t even pay for a meal.
> Of cause this is all moot if you have affiliated with another lodge in your new town?
> As a visitor I always feel a bit of an outsider and so I should, I don’t belong in the way the brethren of that lodge do, but it’s great to meet people and see the level other lodges are working at.



Not exactly. I am always delighted to assist my nearby lodges, I serve on degree teams, from time to time. I always pay for my meals, unless specifically directed otherwise (usually first-time visitors may not pay, even if they want to). I have assisted on painting the nearby lodge hall, even though I am not a member. My obligations require me to assist Masonry, as long as it is within the length of my cable-tow. I am always glad to fill in an officer's position, if the officer cannot attend. (I have become quite adept at the Virginia ritual, even though I have not belonged to a Virginia lodge, since 1987).

I never feel like an outsider, in any lodge of brothers. Even if I am attending a lodge in Moscow, Russia, and the degree work is in Russian. (I speak Russian). This is the same great fraternity, whether I am in a lodge in rural Kentucky, wearing overalls and muddy boots, or in a German-speaking lodge in Paris, France, wearing a tuxedo (I speak German, too).


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## cemab4y (Dec 21, 2017)

David612 said:


> How much are your mother lodges dues? My lodge is about $450 per year


 
2017 dues were $100 (this includes Grand Lodge assessment). I do not know what 2018 dues are going to be. Since our lodge (membership) is collapsing, there will probably be an increase.


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## cemab4y (Dec 21, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> I can sort of understand this. Perhaps it's where his father or grandfather were members at or he just wants to support the brothers that raised him.



You win the kewpie doll! My grandfather was raised in Corinth KY lodge in 1921, that lodge is now consolidated. My father was raised in Bowling Green KY lodge in 1982, and six months after him, my father raised me in the Bowling Green Lodge.

I will continue to support my mother lodge, as long as it is within the reach of my cable-tow. The lodge will probably disappear in less than 10 years :-(


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## cemab4y (Dec 21, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> Our Worshipful Master has said that you can drag a person into Masonry, and they might become a dues paying member and stick around but unless someone truly seeks us out, they will never be an active participating member. I can see that in my son and me. We sought out Masonry and we are active and taking advantage of all the craft has to offer. We have been on numerous lodge visits, we have two scheduled for next month in addition to our own stated meeting, we have participated in two Masonic funerals, and attended a Research Lodge. Each of these experiences has been enriching and rewarding and in their own way have strengthened my resolve to subdue my passions and improve myself.
> 
> We all have friends that could be Masons. We have the unique opportunity to show how Masonry has helped us grow and improve ourselves, we can gently create interest until they ask what they have to do to become a Mason, and then you invite them to a dinner and introduce them to your brothers.



Bowling Green Lodge has two(2) open dinners per year, where you may bring male visitors. We usually get about a dozen petitions per year, as a result of these dinners.


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## cemab4y (Dec 21, 2017)

I am always willing to adopt an idea, that I picked up elsewhere. In New Hampshire, most (not all) lodges are closed for the summer. Many (not all) Masons in NH, join a "square and compass" club, and have picnics, barbecues and other activities in the summer months. (The summers in the Granite State, are spectacular). S&C club meetings are OPEN to anyone, they are not tiled. Many masons, bring their friends and relatives to the activities. When men see the types of activities, that some Masons enjoy, often the visitors ask "How can I get in, on this?". The result, is that when the lodges re-open in September, that there are often, a slew of petitions, that accumulated over the summer.

What a great concept!!


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## David612 (Dec 21, 2017)

I’m in the process of starting a social group similar to the above described for young masons and brothers new to the craft, that said anyone is welcome, it’s not a Masonic activity per se but there are masons involved


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## David612 (Dec 21, 2017)

I will say these discussions bring me to think of an old Banksy




Keep your coins, I WANT CHANGE


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## Bro Book (Dec 21, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> Our Worshipful Master has said that you can drag a person into Masonry, and they might become a dues paying member and stick around but unless someone truly seeks us out, they will never be an active participating member. I can see that in my son and me. We sought out Masonry and we are active and taking advantage of all the craft has to offer. We have been on numerous lodge visits, we have two scheduled for next month in addition to our own stated meeting, we have participated in two Masonic funerals, and attended a Research Lodge. Each of these experiences has been enriching and rewarding and in their own way have strengthened my resolve to subdue my passions and improve myself.
> 
> We all have friends that could be Masons. We have the unique opportunity to show how Masonry has helped us grow and improve ourselves, we can gently create interest until they ask what they have to do to become a Mason, and then you invite them to a dinner and introduce them to your brothers.


Good and wholesome instructions there my brother !!!


Sent from my RCT6973W43 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Glen Cook (Dec 21, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> I was asked to join by a friend from church 30 years ago and timing wasn't right. I waited 30 years for someone to ask me again and it never happened. It took my son to say that some of his friends were masons and he was thinking about joining the lodge. I told him if he joined I wanted to join and the rest is history, abet a short history.
> 
> I've talked to some young guys and they never heard of Masonry or Freemasonry. So maybe we just have to get the word out, or better yet, maybe we just have to find a way to get the members who don't participate, more active.


People will ask why I am flying here or there. When I say for a Masonic meeting, Masonry or Freemasonry, the majority have no idea what I’m speaking of.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 21, 2017)

David612 said:


> If your mother lodge is 500 miles away why do you maintain the affiliation? What value do you get fro that?


I’m a perpetual/life member of two lodges.  I’ve not attended my OK lodge in years. 

I travel 5,000 to my English lodge and chapter.


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## David612 (Dec 21, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> I’m a perpetual/life member of two lodges.  I’ve not attended my OK lodge in years.
> 
> I travel 5,000 to my English lodge and chapter.


Why, other then sentimentality I guess dues in the US are crazy low so why not.
That said as long as your in and contributing to a lodge and any subordinate bodies then no problem.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 21, 2017)

David612 said:


> Why, other then sentimentality I guess dues in the US are crazy low so why not.
> That said as long as your in and contributing to a lodge and any subordinate bodies then no problem.


The two in the States are life memberships.  Paid for lifetime.   
I’ve gone through the chairs in all my Lodges and a second time in my English chapter.


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## David612 (Dec 21, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> The two in the States are life memberships.  Paid for lifetime.
> I’ve gone through the chairs in all my Lodges and a second time in my English chapter.


Ahhh okay, we don’t do that sort of thing in my neck of the woods, in that situation it’s kinda moot really as the lodge can’t rely on income from you anyway.
Chapter is something I’m very much looking forward to.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 22, 2017)

David612 said:


> Ahhh okay, we don’t do that sort of thing in my neck of the woods, in that situation it’s kinda moot really as the lodge can’t rely on income from you anyway.
> Chapter is something I’m very much looking forward to.


Yes, as a UGLE Mason, we don’t do life memberships. 
If properly invested, the funds from the purchase of a life membership provide income to a lodge.


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## David612 (Dec 22, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Yes, as a UGLE Mason, we don’t do life memberships.
> If properly invested, the funds from the purchase of a life membership provide income to a lodge.


True, honestly I think fees should just be raised to a point where lodges don’t need hundreds of members to survive, my lodge is maybe 30-40 guys and it’s a tight good group, everyone pitches in at it works


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## Glen Cook (Dec 22, 2017)

David612 said:


> True, honestly I think fees should just be raised to a point where lodges don’t need hundreds of members to survive, my lodge is maybe 30-40 guys and it’s a tight good group, everyone pitches in at it works


Other than Grand steward Lodges, I’m unaware of many UGLE Lodges with hundreds.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 22, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Yes, as a UGLE Mason, we don’t do life memberships.
> If properly invested, the funds from the purchase of a life membership provide income to a lodge.


Bro. Cook, don't beat yourself up...you're not an UGL_*E* _Mason.


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## cemab4y (Dec 22, 2017)

I have heard of lodges, that have a "cap" on how many members it can have. Before WW2, when our country was more rural, most lodges had fewer than 100 members. Huge "mega-lodges" were unheard of.


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## dfreybur (Dec 22, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> I am always delighted to assist my nearby lodges, I serve on degree teams, from time to time.



Exactly.  One of my lodges I showed up and joined their degree team, because they were close to work.  Eventually they voted me an honorary membership, a status that does not exist in all jurisdictions.  I recently showed up to visit a lodge and they were having a couple of second degrees.  They put me in a chair for the degrees.  I'll definitely be back.

The question was asked why I should keep affiliation with lodges I have long ago moved away from.  In two of them I am Past Master and life/endowed member.  I have no intention to ever demit.  In one I am a honorary member.  I don't even know the process to demit.  If some day I relocate to a jurisdiction that requires me to demit to affiliate, I would be an eternal visitor.  No way am I demitting for a bureaucratic reason.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 22, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> Bro. Cook, don't beat yourself up...you're not an UGL_*E* _Mason.


?  Lost me. Humor gene not switched on yet this morning.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 22, 2017)

It just sounded funny "..as a UGLE (ugly) Mason...." bad attempt by me at humor there.


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## cemab4y (Dec 22, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> Exactly.  One of my lodges I showed up and joined their degree team, because they were close to work.  Eventually they voted me an honorary membership, a status that does not exist in all jurisdictions.  I recently showed up to visit a lodge and they were having a couple of second degrees.  They put me in a chair for the degrees.  I'll definitely be back.
> 
> The question was asked why I should keep affiliation with lodges I have long ago moved away from.  In two of them I am Past Master and life/endowed member.  I have no intention to ever demit.  In one I am a honorary member.  I don't even know the process to demit.  If some day I relocate to a jurisdiction that requires me to demit to affiliate, I would be an eternal visitor.  No way am I demitting for a bureaucratic reason.



Bravo! Visiting other lodges is part of the wages of a Master Mason. When I moved to Columbus OH, in 1991 I wanted to take out a dual membership with a nearby lodge. The GL of Ohio regulations (at that time) prohibited any Ohio lodge members, from belonging to any out of state lodges, simultaneously with an Ohio lodge. Since I would not demit from my KY mother lodge, I had to forego joining the OH lodge.


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## hanzosbm (Dec 22, 2017)

I still pay dues to my mother lodge which is over 2000 miles away.  Of course, that's because they never seem to receive my numerous requests for demit over the years.  But when I give up each January and send my dues check, they seem to always receive that.  Funny how the postal system works in their neck of the woods.


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## hanzosbm (Dec 22, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> I have heard of lodges, that have a "cap" on how many members it can have. Before WW2, when our country was more rural, most lodges had fewer than 100 members. Huge "mega-lodges" were unheard of.


Ours has a cap of 40.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 22, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> It just sounded funny "..as a UGLE (ugly) Mason...." bad attempt by me at humor there.


Oh. UGLEEEE. I told you the humour gene was turned off.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 22, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Oh. UGLEEEE. I told you the humour gene was turned off.


No worries, it was pretty cheesy haha.


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## David612 (Dec 22, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> No worries, it was pretty cheesy haha.


I got it, hehe


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