# Very interested yet a little wary



## J.T. (Oct 20, 2011)

Good afternoon to all, I hope this communication finds you in good health and spirits. I am new to the forum and am elated with the mature and enlightened sense of brotherhood I have read while browsing. Admittedly I have always been curious about the nature of the Freemasons and impressed by the respect given or shown to them in the communities I have lived in. I feel that I am a good man,husband,father and citizen, and am striving to better myself in all areas with Gods help. This seems to line up with the thinking or aims of the Freemasons.
 I do however,feel a little uneasy with some of the uglier natures of man or individuals that have been expressed on other threads. As a man I fell in love with and married a woman, making vows before God and man. I happen to be white and she is black. We have been married thirteen years and have two beautiful children. My concern is that while I am very interested in the Freemasons (and believe that you are good men or wouldn't have been accepted into Freemasonry) and am willing to expose myself while standing on my beliefs and Gods word, my family may be affected or to be made to feel unwelcome or unworthy.
 The reason I have gravitated to the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Freemasons is that most of my family and friends are black as well as my church, the community that I grew up in(pleasant grove,Dallas,Tx),the community I live in(acres homes,Houston,Tx) and the masons that I have seen growing up were black and treated me well and I respected them. I have seen many pictures of lodges and their events on both sides of the coin and am very impressed with their work in their communities but, I saw very little if any integration of races. I don't mean to offend anyone and try to be a very diligent student and listener in all aspects of life. I certainly don't mean to be hasty. I am curious how members personally feel as opposed to the automated PR responses that some may feel compelled to give. Please be patient with me and I welcome any interaction or educational insight you may give.
 Thank you and have a blessed day.


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## Brent Heilman (Oct 21, 2011)

From what I am understanding you are asking what are some of our viewpoints on the segregation that seems to be so evident in some areas? 

While I cannot speak for my Texas Brothers I can speak from an Oklahoma standpoint. Yes there is segregation and it is not something that a great many of us are proud of. In Oklahoma we have recognized PHA as regular and also have the ability to visit a PHA Lodge given certain conditions (calling ahead to clear with the Lodge to be visited and the like). If you look around here on this forum and many others you will see that the majority of people want this segregation issue to go the way of the Dodo. It is a relic of time in our country that we should have long been past. Many of the "old guard" may not want it to change. You will often hear the argument that this is the way it has always been so this is why it needs to stay this way. While 99% of my Lodge is white we do have a few Brothers of other ethnicities, but no African-Americans. I think that it is a sad state of affairs that there are still a great many people that base their opinions on skin color when Masonry teaches it is the internal not the external qualities that qualify a man for the Degrees. I, personally, have *never* based my opinions of a person on their outward appearance. I have never thought that was a good way to try to characterize anyone. We have numerous examples of people where the outward appeared to be fine, upstanding individuals but on the inside were dark, evil people. I would love to see the day when we can say goodbye to segregation that plagues our beloved Fraternity. It has no place in this world much less in Masonry. There are a few Brothers on here that have been huge influences on me, though they may not realize it, that are PHA Masons. My Masonic journey has been wonderful and it is one of the best things I ever did. I do not regret one moment of any of it and never will so it does sadden me to see the blatant racism exhibited by other Masons in other parts of the country. That is not what Masonry is or teaches. I assure you that your situation will not be looked upon with disdain by anyone. 

As far as some of the things you may have read here on other threads with bad attitudes, since this is a forum there are always a few bad apples. Those that seemed to be the biggest troublemakers have left. Some on their own and others not so much. The group that is here on a regular basis are some of the best people I have ever had the pleasure of interacting with. That goes for either in a place such as this or face to face. As always as people we are very opinionated when it comes to certain subjects. If it sometimes appears that we may get a little hot under the collar you can rest assured at the end of the day we are still Brothers and harbor no ill feelings toward each other (I hope).

I have tried to answer your question as best as I could. I hope it helped. I am sure there will be others to give you their perspective also. 

Just as an aside to the conversation one of my best friends is married to a black woman and they are one of the most happily married couples I know. Of course if you didn't know them you would get a completely different idea with the way they kid around with each other. She is also one of the biggest rednecks I have ever met and growing up in Oklahoma that says a lot.


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## Benton (Oct 21, 2011)

Personally? If there isn't a Masonic reason for us not to have full recognition, I don't know why we haven't done it yet. And to my knowledge, there *isn't* a Masonic reason. Further, no one has ever given me a good reason why we can't have full recognition. It's not like the PHA Grand Lodge is initiating women and atheists en masse. I definitely don't understand why we lag so far behind in that regard.

In terms of your situation, here would be my suggestion. Visit a couple of lodges from both Grand Lodges, GLoT, and the PHA. See what you think of the men there. Don't even bring up your wife's race, or any of that. Just observe, and see what you're more comfortable with. If you find a couple of lodges in particular that you feel at home with, see if they have a family picnic or the like coming up. Take your wife/kids and visit that. Then let things unfold from there.

Ultimately, the concern is, do you feel comfortable with the men in the lodge? Visiting them isn't a commitment, and if you visit a particular lodge and see something that is ugly, then you're under no obligation to go back. Find another lodge to visit, rinse repeat, until you think you've found a Masonic home.


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## Bro.BruceBenjamin (Oct 21, 2011)

Benton said:


> Personally? If there isn't a Masonic reason for us not to have full recognition, I don't know why we haven't done it yet. And to my knowledge, there *isn't* a Masonic reason. Further, no one has ever given me a good reason why we can't have full recognition. It's not like the PHA Grand Lodge is initiating women and atheists en masse. I definitely don't understand why we lag so far behind in that regard.
> 
> In terms of your situation, here would be my suggestion. Visit a couple of lodges from both Grand Lodges, GLoT, and the PHA. See what you think of the men there. Don't even bring up your wife's race, or any of that. Just observe, and see what you're more comfortable with. If you find a couple of lodges in particular that you feel at home with, see if they have a family picnic or the like coming up. Take your wife/kids and visit that. Then let things unfold from there.
> 
> Ultimately, the concern is, do you feel comfortable with the men in the lodge? Visiting them isn't a commitment, and if you visit a particular lodge and see something that is ugly, then you're under no obligation to go back. Find another lodge to visit, rinse repeat, until you think you've found a Masonic home.



What he said go were you feel the most comfortable.


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## jwhoff (Oct 21, 2011)

Ditto all.

Give a few of the more progressive lodges here in Houston a try.  The first of which come to mind are Jacques DeMolay and Gray Lodge.  Personally, I'd be damn proud of my wife and children, no matter the race.  And, I suspect you feel the very same way.


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## LukeD (Oct 21, 2011)

I visited both PHA and Mainstream Lodges before I joined. There are some days I wished I would have gone PHA because of their emphasis on Masonic education and a few other areas that appealed to me. Then, there are days I'm glad I chose to go Mainstream. I've had good and bad experiences with Brothers from both sides. As with anything, the concept, or how something was or is intended to work doesn't always play out in real life.  Masonry is a wonderful thing, something I am extremely proud of and serious about. It is almost impossible to have complete cohesion and understanding between so many different men, but I believe most Lodges try to reach that level.  Good luck on your search.


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## jwhoff (Oct 21, 2011)

Agreed LukeD.  Masonry is like any large family.  There are good and bad times ... mostly good.

And then, there are those magic times that shake you to the core.  We're so lucky to have this *mystique tie*.


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## J.T. (Oct 21, 2011)

I have to say thank you to all that have posted thus far and I appreciate your forthrightness. Within hours of posting this thread I received a call from a Brother at a local PHA here in Houston about a cornerstone project for the Church. He was very friendly and openly invited a lengthy conversation about myself, the ideals and quick history of Masonry,family living and, seemed to be an honest to goodness good fella. He wasn't aware of my concerns or my posts.He just represented himself as a good man with good friends. I could tell by his voice that he was many times my senior but, I didn't feel it from him.I had the distinct impression that he was quite naturally a willing teacher and wouldn't withold anything from me. So I cordially invited him and anyone else interested to join us at our humble little church picnic Saturday 10-29-2011 at New Mt. Pleasant Missionary Baptist Church 774 Marjorie Houston Tx 77088. All are welcome.
 That being said, I am most impressed with the thinking and ideals of the masons and do recognize that the old ways of thinking are constantly being improved upon. I hope to visit with several of the local lodges for face to face interaction A.S.A.P having been welcomed already.
 The title of the thread really says it all. I posted to try to get a better feel for the personal feelings of the majority within the Freemasons(as opposed to saying what is expected or recommended) and it seems to be evolving very well. As for the recognition and visitation issues between the Lodges I am obviously out of my depth(again I ask for patience and mentoring) but maybe "from the mouth of babes" may apply. It seems the differences may be roughly similar to the differences between say the catholic church and baptists or methodist. The traditions or customs may be different but we all ultimatley serve the same God that has "no respect of persons". Maybe I'm over simplifying but I am very curious and welcome any educating or advice that I may receive. It has definitly been my pleasure,Thank you all and god bless.


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## Benton (Oct 22, 2011)

One additional thing I'd like to add, Masonry is like any religious organization in one regard:

We all strive to make ourselves better, but we all fall short.

Just as every Christian has his shortcomings in Christ (or any other religion in their walk), in our strive to become better men and Masons we all fall short of our ideal. And I'm not trying to excuse anyone's behavior of any sort, this is just fact. Something worth keeping in mind. 

Regarding recognition, it's hard to get a grasp on until you've been in it awhile and see how it works. Basically, every Grand Lodge is completely Sovereign in its own right, no one body presides over all of Masonry. So, each Grand Lodge has to decide what other Grand Lodges it will consider legitimate and true forms of Masonry, or 'regular' Masonry. There are a number of pretty standard requirements for recognition between two bodies. That said, it's not as simple as a list of requirements. Just like anything else humans get involved in, there are often politics messing things around. 

The Prince Hall/GL split in the US originally stemmed from the racial stain on our nations history. The divide has lingered for a number of other reasons. Most Grand Lodges have recognized their PHA counterparts (and vice versa) as regular for some time now. There are a few states that haven't. Some only have recognition without visitation. (Texas is one of those. No, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me either.)

It can be a touchy issue, obviously. Traditionally, two regular Masonic bodies don't 'share' jurisdiction in a particular geographic area. The US is kind of unique in this regard, since almost every state has both a Grand Lodge and a PHA Grand Lodge. I think this is one issue that some people hold up as a reason barring recognition. Or at least use as an excuse. 

I don't know. Needless to say it's complicated, convoluted, and something that's been ongoing for 200+ years. I think the important part is that we're moving forward to rectify the situation, even if it's a step at a time. The longer something has been a custom, the hard it is to break, no matter how good the reason. 

And that's probably more than you wanted to know. Or maybe just enough to confuse you further. Hope I didn't do too much damage.


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## Michael Hatley (Oct 23, 2011)

My own, personal opinion on the matter: we ought to be integrated, and I'm ashamed we are not.  I'd be happier if PH and F&A were merged into United Masonry.

I nod at the reasons for other, less progressive approaches.   Visitation is an obvious big first step.

For what its worth, I feel strongly about the issue.  I've many black friends, and you know, not just acquaintances.  I'm vocal about it within my lodge (or at least, over dinner). Memorial will join DeMolay and Gray on shortlists I'd imagine before too long.

Things are going to change.  Not without a bunch of us on both sides of the divide taking ownership and doing their part, but I reckon that day is pretty well upon us.  It is the pervading sentiment of the younger generations.

Look at it as an opportunity to be part of that.


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## Traveling Man (Oct 23, 2011)

Michael Hatley said:


> It is the pervading sentiment of the younger generations.



Really? There are some of us that have tried to rectify this situation for generations; I thought you might want to acknowledge that concept. Some of paid the price with their masonic careers.


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## Michael Hatley (Oct 23, 2011)

I don't really know much other way to make progress on the issue but lots of folks doing that.  Then, now, or whenever.

But from where I sit there aren't a whole lot of folks speaking about it.  Or any, really.  So you'll forgive me I hope if my tone is forward oriented.

Anyway, when I say "pervading" I mean every single member or candidate <40 I've spoken to has expressed strong distaste by the divide.  If that is oranges and oranges, so be it.  But I don't think it will be a losing proposition, or painfully slow incremental change for much longer because of that.  People <40 are bewildered by it to a man, from what I see.  People <25 definitely are.

I don't care who gets the credit, I just want to be around when the wall comes down.


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## Benton (Oct 23, 2011)

I don't really see the two organizations merging for a long time, if ever, honestly. I think they both have too much unique and varied history that they want to observe. The Unification of the Grand Lodge of England way back when seems to have been a pretty unique instance. 

In our lifetimes, I bet mutual visitation will be the best that will be achieved.


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## Michael Hatley (Oct 23, 2011)

I've got high hopes for the results of visitation over the course of a couple of decades.


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## J.T. (Oct 23, 2011)

Benton said:


> And that's probably more than you wanted to know. Or maybe just enough to confuse you further. Hope I didn't do too much damage.


 On the contrary, that was very helpful and I really appreciate it. Thank you for your patience.


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## Traveling Man (Oct 23, 2011)

While I will not make such sweeping generalizations about bigotry; let's suffice it to say it's not unique to any group. My statement was asking you to recognise this fact. I'm also requesting that you not marginalize those whom have sacrificed their masonic careers
for the cause. But if you are so focused on your particular perspective; carry on by all means. May I suggest more research on the subject at hand and determine who is making what demands, there might be more to this subject than meets the eye.



> I don't care who gets the credit, I just want to be around when the wall comes down.



I want to tear that wall down, I guess there's the difference.


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## Michael Hatley (Oct 24, 2011)

Consider it recognized, Traveling Man


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