# Chamber of Reflection



## relapse98 (Apr 19, 2013)

Our lodge has had what what we have referred to as a Chamber of Reflection for going on a year now. We have various decorations in it, quite the improvement from our old preparation room which is where the extra stuff, old linens, boxes, chairs were stored in addition to sometimes being used for preparation. We've heard that the Grand master may soon be outlawing Chambers of Reflection and based on that we have removed some of our items. I personally think what we are doing there added to the meaning of a degree, especially the Entered Apprentice, for the new brother. I won't go into it all publicly but never once have I thought we weren't doing anything masonic.

I'd like to see the Law changed so that we could have a Chamber of Reflection still and do at least some of the things we were previously doing. But I'm not sure how to put that into writing. Help? In fact, I'm really not sure the Law is where it should go, it may be better suited for the Committee on Changes?


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## JJones (Apr 19, 2013)

The GM addressed the COR during the conference in Waco a few weeks ago.  He didn't express that he was against the concept however his concern was that people were adopting practices and props that weren't approved by the GL.  So I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't start cracking down on them.

That being said, I will be following this very closely as I'd love to see a new resolution that'd allow us to start using them without any problems.  I have no clue how to write or submit new resolutions though.


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## relapse98 (Apr 19, 2013)

JJones said:


> his concern was that people were adopting practices and props that weren't approved by the GL.



I agree that it should be codified somehow, I just don't know where to start. Ours resembles some of what you find when you google it, with much of the same items.



> That being said, I will be following this very closely as I'd love to see a new resolution that'd allow us to start using them without any problems.  I have no clue how to write or submit new resolutions though.



Yep, it seems to add to the degree for the new brother. I just don't know who to pester first, Commitee on Masonic Education and Service, Committee on Changes, or just propose some sort Law change.


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## chrmc (Apr 19, 2013)

relapse98 said:


> I agree that it should be codified somehow, I just don't know where to start. Ours resembles some of what you find when you google it, with much of the same items.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, it seems to add to the degree for the new brother. I just don't know who to pester first, Commitee on Masonic Education and Service, Committee on Changes, or just propose some sort Law change.



Most of your past Masters should be familiar with how to make resolutions for Grand Lodge and word it correctly. It would be interesting to see one that could spur the debate on some of the traditional aspects we don't see worked over here. 

The one thing I'd have to warn against however is presently doing anything not approved by the committee of work. That can lead your lodge into some major trouble very quickly.


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## ni3f (Apr 19, 2013)

In Washington, DC we have a lodge, La France, which conducts the first three degrees in accordance with the Scottish Rite blue lodge ritual. This is done with the full blessing of the DC GL. I've been to that lodge and can tell you that it is *very* interesting. I think you would have to go to Etoile Polaire in New Orleans to see  anything like this in the US.

I think our GLs should consider authorizing one such lodge or so in every jurisdiction -- for pedagogical purposes. If one lodge is so authorized, it doesn't threaten uniformity and is a very instructional variation to the "Webb work" which is characteristic of most Anglo-American lodges.

I appreciate that GLs want to control the work -- they should! But it is "kosher" to have a variation if it has their approval up front. 


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## dfreybur (Apr 23, 2013)

ni3f said:


> In Washington, DC we have a lodge, La France, which conducts the first three degrees in accordance with the Scottish Rite blue lodge ritual. This is done with the full blessing of the DC GL. I've been to that lodge and can tell you that it is *very* interesting. I think you would have to go to Etoile Polaire in New Orleans to see  anything like this in the US.



In Los Angeles metro Vallee de France conducts its first degrees in impressive style, conducts its meetings in French.  Their 2nd and 3rd degrees are translations of California ritual into French.



> I think our GLs should consider authorizing one such lodge or so in every jurisdiction -- for pedagogical purposes. If one lodge is so authorized, it doesn't threaten uniformity and is a very instructional variation to the "Webb work" which is characteristic of most Anglo-American lodges.



I think exhibition degrees should be encouraged.  If the exemplar is already a Master mason then there is no problem with making Masons clandestinely.



> I appreciate that GLs want to control the work -- they should!



I think that's floating point not binary.  I think GL should set the standard and lodges should teach to that standard.  But I also think variations should not be viewed as a problem.  Consider that any mistake in ritual is a variation from the standard.  Yeah, too technical.  I would not mind insertions during degrees.  Maybe stop the action in a third degree while a brother sings "Nearer my God To Thee" or something like that.  Then resume the action per the standard ritual.



> But it is "kosher" to have a variation if it has their approval up front.



I suggest that if it is done before the degree starts or after the degree ends then it should be outside of the authority of GL to decide.  A chamber or reflection happens before the candidate comes through the door.  As such it is an event that takes place before the degree ritual starts and is thus outside of what I view as the bounds of GL authority.

Consider a tradition many lodges follow.  After the lecture but before the closing the newly obligated brother is presented with books that will give him perspective about the degree he just went though.  I've seen Freemasonry for Dummies presented after first degrees, a GL published booklet after second degrees, the Bible after third degrees.  I've seen presentations on masonic protocol, Bible presentation lectures traditional to that one lodge.  All after the lecture before the closing.  I've even seen a "knife and fork lecture" at refreshment after a closing.  How was that any different from a chamber of reflection before the opening?


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## MarkR (Apr 27, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> I suggest that if it is done before the degree starts or after the degree ends then it should be outside of the authority of GL to decide.  A chamber or reflection happens before the candidate comes through the door.  As such it is an event that takes place before the degree ritual starts and is thus outside of what I view as the bounds of GL authority.
> 
> Consider a tradition many lodges follow.  After the lecture but before the closing the newly obligated brother is presented with books that will give him perspective about the degree he just went though.  I've seen Freemasonry for Dummies presented after first degrees, a GL published booklet after second degrees, the Bible after third degrees.  I've seen presentations on masonic protocol, Bible presentation lectures traditional to that one lodge.  All after the lecture before the closing.  I've even seen a "knife and fork lecture" at refreshment after a closing.  How was that any different from a chamber of reflection before the opening?


As for whether it's "outside the authority of Grand Lodge to decide" because it happens before or after Lodge is at labor, I submit that in many many states Grand Lodge prohibits the use of alcohol anywhere in the Temple, before, during, or after labor.  So clearly they can control such behavior if they choose.  In my Lodge, before the First Degree, we present the candidate with a S&C stamped penny (in the preparation room) with the comment that there is something on there he may soon need to know.  After the second degree, we present the brother with "The Wages of a Fellowcraft," glass vials containing corn, wine, and oil, and explain their symbolism as Masonic Education.  After the third degree, we present a Lodge patent and a lapel pin.  However, I'm quite certain if GL told us to stop doing any or all of those, we'd have to comply.


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## tomasball (Apr 27, 2013)

"I suggest that if it is done before the degree starts or after the degree ends then it should be outside of the authority of GL to decide. A chamber or reflection happens before the candidate comes through the door. As such it is an event that takes place before the degree ritual starts and is thus outside of what I view as the bounds of GL authority."

I assure you the Grand Lodge of Texas does not share your view of the bounds of their authority.


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## dfreybur (Apr 28, 2013)

tomasball said:


> I assure you the Grand Lodge of Texas does not share your view of the bounds of their authority.



Decisions and edicts of the outgoing GM come up for ratification at GL.  If some GM in one of my jurisdictions banned Chamber of Reflection I'd be at GL to vote against ratifying such a decision and might get in line to speak against it on the floor.  Should such a ban be ratified and added to the code I'd have to live by it.  GL is a republic and that's how republics work.

If no mention is made of Chamber of Reflection in the book of constitutions and bylaws then it's allowed.  This is a basic point of Masonic jurisprudence - That which is not forbidden is allowed.


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## JJones (Apr 28, 2013)

> If no mention is made of Chamber of Reflection in the book of constitutions and bylaws then it's allowed. This is a basic point of Masonic jurisprudence - That which is not forbidden is allowed.



If I happen to see the GM of Texas again I'll be sure to inform him of this.  I'm sure that'd go over well. :laugh:


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## tomasball (Apr 28, 2013)

"If no mention is made of Chamber of Reflection in the book of constitutions and bylaws then it's allowed. This is a basic point of Masonic jurisprudence - That which is not forbidden is allowed. "

Now, I mean this in the most affectionate, fraternal way, but that's the silliest idea I've ever heard.  By that reasoning, it would be legal to video the entire Master's degree, since the laws don't mention video.  But besides that, the laws do in fact say that "No ritual other than that promulgated by this Grand Lodge shall be taught or used in this jurisdiction."  And just for the sake of thoroughness, the laws also forbid "side degrees."


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## jwhoff (Apr 28, 2013)

MOTC:  

Bring it up for vote.

Spell it out.

Add it to the Constitution.


Kind of quesy over quasi issues. 

Just my thoughts.

Personally, I'd welcome the change were it voted in by Grand Lodge members.

Who are Grand Lodge members.  That B us brethren, statewide.


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## tomasball (Apr 29, 2013)

Let me describe what my lodge does, without going into anything esoteric.  

A man is told to present himself at a particular time.  When he arrives, he finds only the Master of Ceremonies waiting for him, who escorts him into a small chamber, perhaps ten feet square, furnished only with a chair and a table, and lit only by a candle.   On the opposite wall is the door to the Lodgeroom.  The master of ceremonies helps the candidate with some preliminary preparations, and leaves the candidate alone with his thoughts and enters the lodge.  After a few minutes, the Master of Ceremonies returns, with the Senior Deacon, who speaks earnestly to the candidate about the experience he is embarking upon, including these statements:

"Free Masonry is far removed from all that is trivial, selfish and ungodly. its ceremonies are by no means of a light or trifling character, but are of profound significance and deep solemnity. They have existed without material changes from remote antiquity. Its structure rests upon the indestructible foundation of the Fatherhood of God, the Brotherhood of Man and the Immortality of the Soul."

"Our ancient and honorable fraternity welcomes to its doors, and admits to its privileges, worthy men of all faiths and creeds who posses the indispensable qualifications. Freemasonry is, in one of its major aspects, a beautiful and profound system of morality, veiled in allegories and illustrated by symbols."

" Its grand purposes are, to diffuse light, to banish ignorance, to promote peace and happiness among mankind; to relieve distress; to protect the widows and orphans of our brethren; to inculcate a wider knowledge concerning the existence of the Grand Architect of the Universe, and of the arts and sciences connected with His Divine laws.  In fine, the design is to make its members wiser, freer, better, and consequently happier men."

"These purposes are accomplished by means of a series of moral instructions taught, according to ancient usage, by allegories, symbols, types, figures and lectures...As a preparation for the Mystic Rites into which you are about to enter, you are asked to divest your mind and conscience of all mental prejudices and superfluities incident to a material or worldly life, and remember that selfish aims vanities, if present, are not in keeping with the reverential spirit which a true seeker of Divine Light and wisdom must manifest when he enters upon the true path of initiation."

The Senior Deacon then slowly and solemnly completes the preparations of the candidate, telling the candidate that each step has an esoteric meaning that will be explained after the candidate has become a mason.  He then leaves the candidate in the care of the Master of Ceremonies, who helps the candidate to "initiate" the ceremony.


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## chrmc (Apr 29, 2013)

The explanation is good (though I'm not sure I would have written all of it down, but that's another topic), however if you guys put him in a room that is designated as a Chamber of Reflection and therefore also has the traditional symbols, mirrors, skull etc. then that is presently not accepted by the GLoTX and you can get in trouble for it. 
Likewise if you read something different to an EA than what is in the monitor, then you are not following the official work, and you can get in trouble for that. 

Not saying that I don't agree or like with what you guys are doing, but presently the Committee on Work is very strict about what they will allow.


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## catsale (Sep 5, 2013)

So is something they could bring up for a vote at a future grand lodge meeting to resolve? If so, does anyone that is intending to visit the grand lodge annual meeting this year plant to bring this up? Or is this strictly a decision by whoever is the current grand master?


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## JonBoy (Sep 5, 2013)

Many masons consider the COR clandestine. And believe it should be outlawed as for myself I don't know 


Freemason Connect HD


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## dfreybur (Sep 6, 2013)

catsale said:


> So is something they could bring up for a vote at a future grand lodge meeting to resolve?



Anyone who wants to use CoR may be unhappy with the GM's edict banning the practice so yes it would need to be brought up at annual GL.



> If so, does anyone that is intending to visit the grand lodge annual meeting this year plant to bring this up?



So far none have mentioned it.  It could be done via the legislation process.  In most states there's a ratification vote on GM decisions and it could be overturned at that point.  I haven't checked if Texas has that ratification process.  This year in Florida a GM edict was overturned by their ratification process so it happens - The Florida situation was much more clear than an issue of ritual details so the example is to compare processes not issues.



> Or is this strictly a decision by whoever is the current grand master?



As the current GM already issues his edict that would be subsequent GMs.  If you want to use CoR in you lodge hoping to luck out that a future GM overturns the precedent is a very low percentage shot.


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## Bill Lins (Sep 6, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> In most states there's a ratification vote on GM decisions and it could be overturned at that point.  I haven't checked if Texas has that ratification process.


Yes, we do.


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## Brother JC (Sep 7, 2013)

jwhoff said:


> Who are Grand Lodge members.  That B us brethren, statewide.


In NM (and I believe some other Jurisdictions) the only actual "members" of the Grand Lodge are the Masters and Wardens, as they are the only ones in the Lodge with a vote at GL.


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## dfreybur (Sep 7, 2013)

trysquare said:


> In NM (and I believe some other Jurisdictions) the only actual "members" of the Grand Lodge are the Masters and Wardens, as they are the only ones in the Lodge with a vote at GL.



I've also seen JW, SW and WM called delegates and PMs called members or permanent members.  As a PM in 2 jurisdictions I can write and sign papers that get presented as legislation on the GL floor.  Whether PMs have a vote varies jurisdiction to jurisdiction.  In one of mine I would share a vote with all other PMs from my lodge who show up (no rules on how to handle disagreements).  In the other one the only way I get to vote is if one of the pedestal officers is not there and I'm the one who gets the proxy paperwork.  In some jurisdictions all of jurisdiction lodges get a vote.

As to Chamber of Reflection - When it comes to a vote I suggest you vote based on what the CoR is supposed to be not on the erroneous way it was done.  If you've ever seen a bible presentation done at the end of a Master Mason degree you know that additional material can be added during specific break points in the ritual or before opening or after closing.  Please see the CoR as such an addition because jurisdictions that still use it have it complete before the opening starts.  Please don't see the error of how it was added and then vote against the CoR in general because of that error.  My opinion.


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## DJGurkins (Sep 8, 2013)

Why is this such a big issue? It seems everyone would welcome something that enhanced the candidates experience and reflected the solemnness of the ceremony. I think that giving a candidate a little alone time to contemplate the endeavor he is about to undertake and invoke the aid of deity would be a good thing. Being a new MM I am just trying to learn not offend so I am sorry if this post comes across wrong.


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## catsale (Sep 8, 2013)

One area of "innovation" (dirty word in masonry) that I see is where lodges can hold a degree in different locations. For example some lodges can hold a degree in a cave, on a battleship, in the alamo. Now I think these are cool and in no way detract from the uniformity and solemnity of the degree. So this makes me think there is some creative diversity from lodge to lodge that still keeps the words of the ritual constant. 

Some areas where Texas is lacking... when I travel out of state, I see lodge rooms with real winding staircases, however I think there may be a prohibition against building any more those of new Texas lodges (maybe wrong on that). Also when I attend a lodge building  that has a non-used organ. I was asking if its ever used (or if any lodge for that matter in Texas uses music because I would like to see how that is used) and I was told there is a grand lodge prohibition against using music. Not sure if that is true or not. In my college fraternity, we used some recorded music in a few places where our candidate was blindfolded to set the mood or increase the drama. When I went through that in college, i assure you it was very cool.

But back on the CoR discussion.  On why the Texas grand lodge is reluctant to use of chamber of reflections... I am not sure if this enhancement is any more of a innovation than allowing lodges to hold degrees in caves or battleships. However, on one point, it could be that the CoR is just too darn spooky. Maybe it scares candidates into getting up and walking out before they even go into the official 1st degree where the master of ceremonies does his traditional stuff. Maybe they get the idea that blue lodge is some kind of satanic cult when they see a skeleton head. Could that be the resistance to the whole idea?  

I think the CoR is successfully used in Europe and South America and perhaps other parts of US (Louisiana?),maybe in parts of Canada. I knew a little about CoR from internet searching even before I was initiated into the 1st degree, and I was disappointed that my Texas lodge did not have a CoR.    I hear from another lodge in Texas that did it for a while, that their candidates thought the experience was pretty cool and was a good enhancement to the solemnity of the occasion. When you consider all the stuff they do in Scottish Rite, having a simple CoR in the blue lodge is only a very small taste of that type of stuff. There is a tremendous amount of visual symbolism in the CoR and before you bring a candidate to light in the real degree, the CoR is like creating a polar opposite so they can pause, reflect, and get serious while they are "in the dark" (literally, physically).


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## Brother JC (Sep 8, 2013)

Montezuma Lodge has used it's CoR for every Candidate since 2000 and I have never heard of a single one saying they thought it was"spooky," or of anyone backing out of their Initiation because of it.


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## Bill Lins (Sep 8, 2013)

catsale said:


> when I travel out of state, I see lodge rooms with real winding staircases, however I think there may be a prohibition against building any more those of new Texas lodges.


I know the Committee on Work doesn't like them, but I don't know that there is any published prohibition of them.


catsale said:


> I was told there is a grand lodge prohibition against using music. Not sure if that is true or not.


It's not true. The problem is that very few Lodges have Brethren who are musicians.


catsale said:


> But back on the CoR discussion.


I see nothing wrong with having a quiet place for a candidate to reflect upon his situation. I think some are afraid that some Lodges might get carried away with the idea & create a "haunted house", if you will.


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## Bro_Vick (Sep 8, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> I see nothing wrong with having a quiet place for a candidate to reflect upon his situation. I think some are afraid that some Lodges might get carried away with the idea & create a "haunted house", if you will.



The DI for our district made the statement at our last stated meeting that a lodge got their charter pulled for having a Chamber of Reflection, I was skeptical of this, as I haven't heard of it happening.

So did it really happen, or was the statement more of a scare tactic?

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## Bill Lins (Sep 8, 2013)

Bro_Vick said:


> The DI for our district made the statement at our last stated meeting that a lodge got their charter pulled for having a Chamber of Reflection, I was skeptical of this, as I haven't heard of it happening.
> 
> So did it really happen, or was the statement more of a scare tactic?


First I've heard of it, if true.


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## dfreybur (Sep 8, 2013)

Bro_Vick said:


> The DI for our district made the statement at our last stated meeting that a lodge got their charter pulled for having a Chamber of Reflection, I was skeptical of this, as I haven't heard of it happening.
> 
> So did it really happen, or was the statement more of a scare tactic?



Not quite either.  If a charter had been pulled over it that would have been extensively discussed here so that didn't happen.  What happened is the GM issued an edict forbidding the use of CoR complete with an extensive explanation of what had been done.

On the one hand news tends to get reduced to sound bites.  The explanation gets lost.  The explanation *matters*.  A lodge broke ritual.  Anyone who has seen a Bible presentation knows that non-ritual items can be performed on the evening of a degree as long as it is done during a break point in the ritual.  That's not how the CoR was implemented.  The reduction of the sound bite went from "learn the what the ritual means and you can add stuff without problems" to "CoR bad".

On the other hand doesn't the current GM object to Traditional Observance lodges?  TO lodges do what we are taught, as much of it as they can pull off  and they start with very high expectations so they pull off a ton of it.  I have trouble viewing objections to TO lodges in terms other than wanting to restrict Masonry to a bowling league.


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## Bill Lins (Sep 8, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> the GM issued an edict forbidding the use of CoR complete with an extensive explanation of what had been done.


Bro. Freyburger, have you personally seen a copy of said edict? Under GLoTX, whenever the GM issues an edict, it is posted on the GL website and published and sent out to the Lodges. Our Lodge has received no such edict nor can I find any mention of it on the GL website.


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## dfreybur (Sep 8, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Bro. Freyburger, have you personally seen a copy of said edict? Under GLoTX, whenever the GM issues an edict, it is posted on the GL website and published and sent out to the Lodges. Our Lodge has received no such edict nor can I find any mention of it on the GL website.



It was read by the DDGM during the first of his Official Visits.  I heard him read it during my visits to both Helotes and Victory lodges in district 39-A.  In both cases he pulled out a sheet and read verbatim from it.  So what the RW Bro Ron read in those OVs was a statement of policy or something that did not rise to the level of Edict or Decision?  Sounded like a command to me so I figured it would be listed as an Edict or Decision.  If it's not an Edict or Decision that has implications about setting precedents ...

Tuesday is a 2nd OV at Victory.  I'll be there so I'll ask what standing he think the paper he read has.


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## Bill Lins (Sep 8, 2013)

I'll see our DDGM Tuesday night & ask him if he knows anything about it. It may have been just a reminder that such must be approved by the Committee on Work before being used.


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## Mike Martin (Sep 9, 2013)

This isn't meant to seem, rude but a Chamber of Reflection is an "innovation" in Freemasonry neither the Antients or Moderns Grand Lodges or the Grand Lodges of Ireland and Scotland used them in the beginning of speculative Freemasonry during the late 1600 and early 1700s.

It was introduced into the Freemasonry practised by the Grand Orient of France as a result of the invention of the Rite of Perfection in 1760s France and as that Rite became a part of the newly created Ancient & Accepted Scottish Rite Masonry in the 1780s.

This may well be the reason that your Grand Lodges don't wish to see its use creep into your regular Craft Lodges.


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## crono782 (Sep 9, 2013)

Hah, then again. Wasn't the MM degree itself an "innovation" at one point? I wonder how many GLs forget that. 


Freemason Connect HD


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## JJones (Sep 9, 2013)

> This isn't meant to seem, rude but a Chamber of Reflection is an "innovation" in Freemasonry



Does your lodge still meet in a tavern?


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## Mike Martin (Sep 10, 2013)

Meeting places are not innovations the Lodge room must be Tyled and have the correct furniture there is no more requirement than that and yes here in England there are Lodges that meet in upstairs rooms of Pubs.

However, I suspect you may not have read the last line that I posted where I just suggested that it might be part of the reason but in no way tried to say it definitely was the reason.


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## JJones (Sep 10, 2013)

Touche my brother!

While location may not be an innovation, the ritual has almost certainly changed since the days most lodges were meeting in taverns.  Not only that but brethren who are more well traveled than I can attest that many GL jurisdictions do things very differently than we do in Texas.  Where can we draw a line and say 'that's a change' and 'that's an innovation'?



> However, I suspect you may not have read the last line that I posted where I just suggested that it might be part of the reason but in no way tried to say it definitely was the reason.



I read the last line a bit differently but, to be honest, I just enjoy a friendly debate.  :001_smile:


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## Roy Vance (Sep 12, 2013)

DJGurkins said:


> Why is this such a big issue? It seems everyone would welcome something that enhanced the candidates experience and reflected the solemnness of the ceremony. I think that giving a candidate a little alone time to contemplate the endeavor he is about to undertake and invoke the aid of deity would be a good thing. Being a new MM I am just trying to learn not offend so I am sorry if this post comes across wrong.



Brother DJ, it is such a big issue because of the "it's not what we do here" or "we've never done that before, so it ain't legal" sort of thinking that goes on when the lodges get lazy and complacent and quit actually working and just sit back and let the world go on by while they "read the minutes and pay the bills". And, don't worry, if you did not offend us before you were Raised, then you probably won't offend us now. I have read many of your posts before you became a Master Mason. Worry not, my Brother.


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## DJGurkins (Sep 12, 2013)

Roy Vance said:


> Brother DJ, it is such a big issue because of the "it's not what we do here" or "we've never done that before, so it ain't legal" sort of thinking that goes on when the lodges get lazy and complacent and quit actually working and just sit back and let the world go on by while they "read the minutes and pay the bills". And, don't worry, if you did not offend us before you were Raised, then you probably won't offend us now. I have read many of your posts before you became a Master Mason. Worry not, my Brother.



Thank you Bro. Vance there must be a lot about the room I don't understand and have knowledge of. That might be a good area to look into and study a little.


Freemason Connect HD


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## dfreybur (Sep 12, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> I'll see our DDGM Tuesday night & ask him if he knows anything about it. It may have been just a reminder that such must be approved by the Committee on Work before being used.



I asked our RW DDGM on Tuesday after his second OV.  He said it was something the district instructors were told to read at their lodges.  So it's not an edict and thus goes away once the annual GL meeting lets out.

The part that never goes away is the part that should never have been done in the first place - Inserting it at a point in the ritual not intended for spontaneous events and introducing a candidate not yet obligated into a tiled lodge not in the regular manner.

But that leaves the part that's in the title going away - The Chamber of Reflection itself.  Banning CoR itself, implemented correctly, is like banning a Bible presentation, implemented correctly.

Just like the lodge that did it wrong did not think it through, it looks like the WM GM has not thought it through.  He invited the brethren to present legislation then let the topic fade into obscurity.


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## catsale (Sep 12, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> I asked our RW DDGM on Tuesday after his second OV.  He said it was something the district instructors were told to read at their lodges.  So it's not an edict and thus goes away once the annual GL meeting lets out.
> 
> The part that never goes away is the part that should never have been done in the first place - Inserting it at a point in the ritual not intended for spontaneous events and introducing a candidate not yet obligated into a tiled lodge not in the regular manner.
> 
> ...



So lets get some clarity here. Is this kosher then for immediate use? In this order of events? Or do you guys think we have to get a grand lodge vote on this. Or not sure.
I think the order is..

(a) Master of ceremonies reads the usual stuff from monitor to candidate to make sure they ready
(b) MC takes candidate (in their street clothes and not hoodwinked) to a dark, candlelit CoR for them to fill out some papers (life goals or whatever), leaves them alone, maybe have background music, and then they ring a bell when ready to proceed and MC comes to get them. We decorate this CoR per traditional standards....
(c) MC takes candidate in street clothes to the room adjoining the lodge to become duly and truly prepared (and all that means) and then we start the EA formal process.
(d) Actual 1st degree occurs from beginning to end per usual.

Now perhaps flipping (a) and (b) is required but I am not sure why that would matter. Makes more sense to have (a) and (b) in the order I suggest.


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## Brother JC (Sep 12, 2013)

In NM, we did it before anything Monitorial or Ritual, effectively outside of "regulated" space. We would open Lodge while the Candidate was in contemplation. Once Lodge was open and the SW informed the WM that there was a Candidate in waiting, the WM sent the SD and Stewards out to prep him. All nice and neat and by the book.


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## Bill Lins (Sep 12, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> It may have been just a reminder that such must be approved by the Committee on Work before being used.


Apparently that's all it was- not an Edict or Decision.


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## Bill Lins (Sep 12, 2013)

catsale said:


> So lets get some clarity here. Is this kosher then for immediate use? In this order of events? Or do you guys think we have to get a grand lodge vote on this. Or not sure.
> I think the order is..
> 
> (a) Master of ceremonies reads the usual stuff from monitor to candidate to make sure they ready
> ...


Until such time as a resolution permitting a CoR is presented to & approved by the Grand West in Annual Communication, my advice would be to follow the instructions in the Monitor precisely, which are for the SD to give the reading to the candidate in the preparation room, then immediately turn him over to the MC for preparation for his initiation.


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## dfreybur (Sep 13, 2013)

catsale said:


> So lets get some clarity here. Is this kosher then for immediate use? In this order of events? Or do you guys think we have to get a grand lodge vote on this. Or not sure.
> I think the order is..
> 
> (a) Master of ceremonies reads the usual stuff from monitor to candidate to make sure they ready
> ...



The two principles in question are -

1) What the WM GM says, goes.

This means no, use of CoR carefully executed to not conflict with the proscribed ritual is not allowed this year.  He said no and that's it for his year.  He declined to put in the list to be ratified so the topic can be revisited after his year is complete.

2) No interference with the proscribed ritual.  In your outline this means at least flipping (a) and (b).

Consider the Bible presentation done by many lodges - it happens completely outside of the degree portion of the ritual.  As Brother Walker (trysquare) mentions it needs to be done completely outside of the ritual.  Whether that means it has been completed before the Opening starts (the only way I've seen it) or separate from and in parallel to the Opening but completed before and not in conflict with the Conferal - I suggest completed before the Opening starts.  Also check out Brother Lins response to have no conflict with proscribed ritual.  That too is why I suggest it be completed before the Opening ritual is started.  Complete separation means it's neither a part of the proscribed ritual nor in any way in conflict with proscribed ritual.


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## BroBill (Sep 13, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> First I've heard of it, if true.



It is true. The Grand Master has said absolutely NO to the use of a CoR in any Blue Lodge. It is properly part of degrees in other masonic bodies. He has pulled at least one charter so far.


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## catsale (Sep 13, 2013)

BroBill said:


> It is true. The Grand Master has said absolutely NO to the use of a CoR in any Blue Lodge. It is properly part of degrees in other masonic bodies. He has pulled at least one charter so far.



Well thats too bad perhaps that can be legislatively addressed this year. But thanks for the clarification.  I don't participate in the other masonic bodies because I barely have time to commit to blue lodge. But i have been trying to do that well (2x or 3x a month). So ramping up in appendant masonic bodies is not an appealing strategy for me.


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## Brother JC (Sep 13, 2013)

Our Bible Presentation is actually a Monitorial portion of the Third Degree. It is performed after the Charge.


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## catsale (Sep 13, 2013)

trysquare said:


> Our Bible Presentation is actually a Monitorial portion of the Third Degree. It is performed after the Charge.



You guys know what they say in business. Innovate or die (innovation is not a bad word, it is how organizations like Apple computer reinvent themselves all the time).  Its ok to innovate and improve, perhaps the goal of GL meetings should be to aim for some measure of consistency, but nevertheless, as we move forward, its innovate or die.


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## Bill Lins (Sep 13, 2013)

catsale said:


> Well thats too bad perhaps that can be legislatively addressed this year.


Any proposals to be considered by the Grand West must be received by the Grand Secretary no later than May 15th to be included in this year's Annual Communication.


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## Bill Lins (Sep 13, 2013)

trysquare said:


> Our Bible Presentation is actually a Monitorial portion of the Third Degree. It is performed after the Charge.


So is ours, and it has been approved by our Committee on Work. To compare the Bible presentation to a CoR is apples to oranges.


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## catsale (Sep 13, 2013)

May 15 ? Wow, thats like 7 months early to think about it. That makes the US Congress look like amazon.com 
But thanks for the note on that, maybe issue dead and burried now for next 18 months.


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## BroBill (Sep 13, 2013)

Mike Martin said:


> This isn't meant to seem, rude but a Chamber of Reflection is an "innovation" in Freemasonry neither the Antients or Moderns Grand Lodges or the Grand Lodges of Ireland and Scotland used them in the beginning of speculative Freemasonry during the late 1600 and early 1700s.
> 
> It was introduced into the Freemasonry practised by the Grand Orient of France as a result of the invention of the Rite of Perfection in 1760s France and as that Rite became a part of the newly created Ancient & Accepted Scottish Rite Masonry in the 1780s.
> 
> This may well be the reason that your Grand Lodges don't wish to see its use creep into your regular Craft Lodges.



Agree... Texas Blue Lodges are chartered to confer EA, FC, and MM. They are not chartered to utilize or confer parts of degrees found and conferred in other masonic organizations.

S&F
BroBill


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## Blake Bowden (Sep 14, 2013)

I think all Lodges should have a chamber of reflection for the candidate vs. a dusty closet or storage room.


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## BroBill (Sep 14, 2013)

Blake Bowden said:


> I think all Lodges should have a chamber of reflection for the candidate vs. a dusty closet or storage room.



I view it as revealing degree work from other masonic bodies where the brethren swore they "will not reveal the secrets of this degree to anyone....".  In this case those secrets are being revealed to a candidate not even initiated yet. 

To me, each organization is charged to maintain, protect, and secure certain unique aspects (degrees) of masonry and the CoR is absolutely part of another organization's charter and charge. 

Again, it's my opinion.... 

Cheers from Warden's Retreat in bodacious Corpus Christi

S&F
BroBill


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## Brother JC (Sep 14, 2013)

BroBill said:


> I view it as revealing degree work from other masonic bodies...


I don't know about SR, but in the Chivalric Orders it is outside of the Degree work, just as it is being described here for Craft Lodge use, and therefore not a "secret" of the Degree.
Having experienced it twice, I can honestly say that my Mother Lodge made use of it far more effectively than the Order that was "supposed" to do it.


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## dfreybur (Sep 14, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> So is ours, and it has been approved by our Committee on Work. To compare the Bible presentation to a CoR is apples to oranges.



Now I need to get a copy of the Monitor for Texas and read up on that.  It's my first jurisdiction that requires it and now I already know of two jurisdictions that require it - Very cool.


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## dfreybur (Sep 14, 2013)

BroBill said:


> I view it as revealing degree work from other masonic bodies where the brethren swore they "will not reveal the secrets of this degree to anyone....".  In this case those secrets are being revealed to a candidate not even initiated yet.



I view it as importing a part of the first three degrees that is present in other jurisdictions.  Being a part of the first three degrees would make the CoR not a part of the secrets of any appendent body's degrees.  Based on the history of this discussion and on the symbols in your avatar at least one of the York Rite degrees.

One way to put the topic to bed in my opinion - Get the local YR to rule that it's theirs in Texas.  Another way to put the topic to bed in my opinion - Submit legislation to GL authorizing it as optional content, complete with directions on how to conduct it so as to not conflict with the proscribed ritual.


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## Bill Lins (Sep 14, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> Now I need to get a copy of the Monitor for Texas and read up on that.  It's my first jurisdiction that requires it and now I already know of two jurisdictions that require it - Very cool.


It is not "required" but it is "allowed"- see the following:

*BIBLE PRESENTATION*
_This is not a part of the Master Mason's Degree. A bible may be presented to the newly raised Master Mason if it is the desire of the Lodge to do so. When a bible is to be presented, it should be done after the completion of the degree [after the apron has been presented and the newly raised brother has __been seated among his brethren]._
_
The following may be used in making the presentation:_

My brother, however men may differ in creed or theology, all good men are agreed that within the covers of the Holy Bible are found those principles of morality which lay the foundation upon which to build a righteous life.

Masonry, therefore, opens this Book upon its altar with a command to each of its members that he diligently study therein to learn the way to Eternal Life. 

Adopting no particular creed, forbidding all sectarian discussion within its Lodgerooms, but urging each to be steadfast in the faith of his profession, Masonry would take every good man by the hand, lead him to its altar, point to the open Bible thereon, and urge that he direct his way through life by the light he there shall find; and so long as that light shines upon its altar, so long as it illuminates the pathway of the Craftsmen by its golden rays of truth, so long will Freemasonry live and shed its beneficent influence upon mankind.

Guard then, my brother, that Book of sacred and immutable Law as you guard your life; defend it more heroically than you would the flag of your country, and live according to its Divine precepts with its everlasting assurances of a blessed immortality.

On behalf of your Lodge (or other donor), it is my great privilege to present to you, your own personal copy of the Great Light in Masonry. Read it, study it, and implement in your daily life the precepts contained in it. By so doing, you will merit the title bestowed upon you tonight-that of a Master Mason.


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## Bill Lins (Sep 14, 2013)

catsale said:


> May 15 ? That makes the US Congress look like amazon.com


You know, our state Legislature meets for 140 days every 2 years. It has been proposed that they be allowed to meet for 2 days every 140 years. There may be some merit to that proposal. :wink:


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## BroBill (Sep 14, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> Another way to put the topic to bed in my opinion - Submit legislation to GL authorizing it as optional content, complete with directions on how to conduct it so as to not conflict with the proscribed ritual.



I am in total agreement with this.  There is a path and if enough brethren want it and support the legislative change, we can formally incorporate it. 

S&F
BroBill


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## dfreybur (Sep 16, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> It is not "required" but it is "allowed"- see the following:
> 
> *BIBLE PRESENTATION*
> _This is not a part of the Master Mason's Degree. A bible may be presented to the newly raised Master Mason if it is the desire of the Lodge to do so. When a bible is to be presented, it should be done after the completion of the degree [after the apron has been presented and the newly raised brother has __been seated among his brethren]._
> ...



As this is the timing but is not the wording of the poem I have seen used for a Bible presentation I think my comparison for purposes of timing and how to not conflict with the ritual of a degree or the ritual of opening/closing to me remains apples to apples.  The Bible presentation is done at a point in the meeting that is not a part of the degree and is also not a part of the opening/closing.  As such it is correctly timed at an established break point.

There's also an established break point between the opening ceremony and the start of the degree where activities can be inserted.  I prefer to reserve this time for introductions, announcements, reading of the degree slate, proficiencies.  Activities we've all seen at that point in the past.

I think the CoR if done should be completed before the opening ceremony is started.  My bias - The one time I attended a degree where the candidate was put through the CoR used this timing.  Another bit of timing - Not at all this year.  What the WMGM says, goes.


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## crono782 (Sep 16, 2013)

I mean if you were to do a CoR and did it completely before ever opening a lodge period, it would be hard to argue that you were tinkering with ritual. 


Freemason Connect HD


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## tomasball (Sep 16, 2013)

crono782 said:


> I mean if you were to do a CoR and did it completely before ever opening a lodge period, it would be hard to argue that you were tinkering with ritual.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect HD



The Grand Master disagrees with you.  And if you pause and consider what you said, if it's not "ritual", then what is it?


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## crono782 (Sep 16, 2013)

tomasball said:


> The Grand Master disagrees with you.  And if you pause and consider what you said, if it's not "ritual", then what is it?



Oh I'm aware that he does and of course we abide. Same thing that the bible presentation is (in an overly simplified sense): fluff. However, just because its non ritual doesn't mean it can't be made meaningful. 


Freemason Connect HD


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## JJones (Sep 16, 2013)

crono782 said:


> Oh I'm aware that he does and of course we abide. Same thing that the bible presentation is (in an overly simplified sense): fluff. However, just because its non ritual doesn't mean it can't be made meaningful.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect HD



Agreed.  It's just extra and, like the bible presentation, it could be something that's completely optional so long as it follows the procedures set forth by the GL.  I see no harm in it and if it turns out to be pointless and ineffective then it'd stop seeing use and die out anyhow.


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## dfreybur (Sep 17, 2013)

tomasball said:


> The Grand Master disagrees with you.



And what the Grand master says, goes.  Plus he gets to decide if his decision goes to vote at GL to get ratified to become permanent.  In this case he has not yet put it on the agenda for his year.  It's an interesting strategy that kicks the ball forward giving everyone plenty more time to think about it.



> And if you pause and consider what you said, if it's not "ritual", then what is it?



You put "ritual" in quotes for a good reason.  We are required to perform the entire ritual as it is taught.  There are items that are traditional in some lodges not done by others that aren't "ritual" as such.  Tuxedo uniform.  Freemasonry for Dummies book presentation.  You name it.


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## Bill Lins (Sep 17, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> And what the Grand master says, goes.  Plus he gets to decide if his decision goes to vote at GL to get ratified to become permanent.  In this case he has not yet put it on the agenda for his year.  It's an interesting strategy that kicks the ball forward giving everyone plenty more time to think about it.


If, as it appears, he only reminded the Brethren of the existing law giving total control of all things ritualistic to the Committee on Work, then there is nothing to be presented or approved @ GL- the law already exists. If some wish to be allowed to have a CoR, they will need to submit a resolution to be considered. As stated earlier, the soonest such could happen would be in December of 2014.


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## catsale (Sep 18, 2013)

Well eventually, Texas GL should vote on this, I suspect that a majority of the votes would support.  I remember when I went through my EA degree, while I was impressed with many parts of the degree (lecture, obligation, the way I was duly and truly prepared, and also the fact that everyone memorized their lines)...I was disappointed that the degree was not better, more cool.   I was comparing it to my preconceived notions (yes, I had seen CoR mentioned in a book of masonic symbolism that I had purchased so was surprised it did not occur).  I was also comparing to my college fraternity initiation which I have to say was actually better in some ways - in college we had a simple CoR (with background music), and then while we lead our candidate around to various adventures on a pathway to initiation, we actually had some taped music in the background or we used sound effects, the candidate would see scenes with background lighting and characters in costume, and we even had pyrotechnic explosions. It was almost like Sottish Rite doing a college fraternity initiation.  Now the brothers here could say...well, if you want that, go to the Scottish Rite or York Rite because thats just not blue lodge way of doing things. But my point is that with a few innovations (like a blue lodge CoR) we could remove the need for members to want to move out of blue lodge and into the Scottish Rite. Also, from what I hear, one blue lodge in houston that was doing a CoR for a while (a few years ago) got rave feedback from their candidates that it made the initiation that much more cool for them.


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## chrmc (Sep 19, 2013)

catsale said:


> Well eventually, Texas GL should vote on this, I suspect that a majority of the votes would support.



See I think the above is where you may be wrong. Though we are seeing a general trend towards a more formal and traditional form of masonry in many of the urban lodges, I do not think the same winds are blowing in the rural parts of Texas, and most certainly not in Grand Lodge. 
I would personally expect a vote on the CoR to fail miserably in GL (sadly) if for no better reason than "it's not the way we've always done it"


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## Roy Vance (Sep 20, 2013)

chrmc said:


> See I think the above is where you may be wrong. Though we are seeing a general trend towards a more formal and traditional form of masonry in many of the urban lodges, I do not think the same winds are blowing in the rural parts of Texas, and most certainly not in Grand Lodge.
> I would personally expect a vote on the CoR to fail miserably in GL (sadly) if for no better reason than "it's not the way we've always done it"



Maybe they should read up on the "old" Masonry. In the early days, as I am lead to understand, the CoR was used in the Craft Degrees and not anywhere else, because there was no "anywhere else" to use it. The statement, "it's not the way we've always done it", is something that stems from laziness and forgotten usages. Just Sayin'.


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## Brother JC (Sep 20, 2013)

The wording of anything put to a vote would be key. If you make it look like you're trying to force it down people's throats, they certainly won't vote yes. If you make it an option, then you might get a better response.

I attended an EA Degree at a TO Lodge last night, and I must say that the CoR was done in excellent taste, and that the Candidate was duly impressed. Plus, it was probably one of the most impressive Initiations I have seen.


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## dfreybur (Sep 20, 2013)

catsale said:


> I remember when I went through my EA degree, while I was impressed with many parts of the degree (lecture, obligation, the way I was duly and truly prepared, and also the fact that everyone memorized their lines)...I was disappointed that the degree was not better, more cool.   I was comparing it to my preconceived notions (yes, I had seen CoR mentioned in a book of masonic symbolism that I had purchased so was surprised it did not occur).



This is a great example of why candidates should be encouraged to go in cold.  If you don't trust your friends to take care of you are you actually ready to adopt them as brothers?  So don't learn about the content of the degrees in advance.  It spoils the emotional impression made during the degree.


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## dfreybur (Sep 20, 2013)

trysquare said:


> I attended an EA Degree at a TO Lodge last night, and I must say that the CoR was done in excellent taste, and that the Candidate was duly impressed. Plus, it was probably one of the most impressive Initiations I have seen.



A long established tradition that impresses the candidates?  Can't have that.  Sigh.  One of the hardest lessons I've learned is once I went through my degrees, all degrees I go through ever since then are about that candidate not about me.  It's about the candidates now.  What works for them is for the best of Masonry.  This is hardest in my reaction to group degrees needing to favor them because I've seen them work so well but here it is again with CoR.


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## catsale (Sep 20, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> This is a great example of why candidates should be encouraged to go in cold.  If you don't trust your friends to take care of you are you actually ready to adopt them as brothers?  So don't learn about the content of the degrees in advance.  It spoils the emotional impression made during the degree.



True. But I had a book showing pictures and symbols of masonry. Pictures of things like a black and white checkered floor, a sword, some working tools, a stained glass window with a bee hive, pictures of a lodge room in France, a picture of a CoR. Stuff like that. So I was just going off the pictures. Its hard to be 100% in the dark when you join, because you have to have some curiousity just to get you interested.


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## catsale (Sep 20, 2013)

chrmc said:


> See I think the above is where you may be wrong. Though we are seeing a general trend towards a more formal and traditional form of masonry in many of the urban lodges, I do not think the same winds are blowing in the rural parts of Texas, and most certainly not in Grand Lodge.
> I would personally expect a vote on the CoR to fail miserably in GL (sadly) if for no better reason than "it's not the way we've always done it"



Your probably right, rural can be more conservative than urban on some issues, so perhaps allow some lodges the option of being traditional observance lodges and implement the idea.


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## Mac (Sep 21, 2013)

This is the perfect time and place to start drafting an "optional" chamber of reflection proposal for submission in 2014. Who wants to take the lead?

By doing so publicly, we can also generate discussion and let others know that it isn't a scary change, nor is it a mandatory inclusion.

Sent via mobile app (Freemason Connect HD)


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## Bill Lins (Sep 21, 2013)

catsale said:


> perhaps allow some lodges the option of being traditional observance lodges and implement the idea.


Last year, San Marcos Lodge successfully proposed the allowance of positioning the Lesser Lights in alternate locations. Their resolution would serve well as a guide for one allowing the use of a CoR.


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## tomasball (Sep 23, 2013)

I haven't seen anybody post exactly what procedure and wording they want to use in the CoR, which I think would be required for the idea to be considered.  And then you would have to explain why that is better than our current ceremony in the preparation room.


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## Brother JC (Sep 23, 2013)

tomasball said:


> ...explain why that is better than our current ceremony in the preparation room.


In the case of Lodges that I have seen using the CoR, nothing is replaced. The preparation, questions, and entrance are all the same. The CoR precedes everything in the Monitor, everything already in place regarding the Degree.
You are correct, however, that someone needs to specifically lay-out the why and wherefore if they are going to bring it before Grand Lodge.


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## tomasball (Sep 23, 2013)

Are they proposing that the candidate be taken into a CoR, given a ceremony there, then taken to the Preparation Room for the Senior Deacon's charge?  Sounds clumsy.


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## dfreybur (Sep 23, 2013)

tomasball said:


> Are they proposing that the candidate be taken into a CoR, given a ceremony there, then taken to the Preparation Room for the Senior Deacon's charge?



Absolutely.  No overlap whatsoever with the existing ritual, and optional as well.  The only degree I've seen that used it the CoR happened as was complete before we saw the parts of the degree that happened inside the lodge room.  We were told about it while we were waiting for the candidate to be prepared.


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## DJGurkins (Sep 23, 2013)

I would like to see it be used as a way for the candidate to pray and reflect on the great and laudable task he is about to undertake. With that being said can't they just be told "in this room I will leave you to reflect and pray on this great and laudable event in your life" or something to that effect.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using My Freemasonry HD Pro mobile app


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## tomasball (Sep 23, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> Absolutely.  No overlap whatsoever with the existing ritual, and optional as well.  The only degree I've seen that used it the CoR happened as was complete before we saw the parts of the degree that happened inside the lodge room.  We were told about it while we were waiting for the candidate to be prepared.



...and if my lodge doesn't have a spare room besides the preparation room?


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## DJGurkins (Sep 23, 2013)

I would think it wouldn't be a problem if it was optional. So I would hope it would be optional.

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## dfreybur (Sep 23, 2013)

tomasball said:


> ...and if my lodge doesn't have a spare room besides the preparation room?



The first step is to say that's why the CoR must be optional.  it can't be required of lodges that don't have the facilities to work it.

The second step is to say that's why the CoR has to be over and complete before the opening ceremony begins so it does not collide with anything in the proscribed ritual including the rooms used by the proscribed ritual.


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## Brother JC (Sep 23, 2013)

tomasball said:


> Are they proposing that the candidate be taken into a CoR, given a ceremony there, then taken to the Preparation Room for the Senior Deacon's charge?  Sounds clumsy.


In my experience, there is no "ceremony" in the CoR. It is a space for the Candidate to reflect upon the path he is about to embark on. Some Lodges give him questions to answer in writing.
When it's time, the SD (or MoC) do the Prelude, the Stewards prep him, and the Degree goes on as always. Nothing clumsy about it.
As for your other question, my MotherLodge has the CoR set up in the prep room. It has never been an issue.


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## chrmc (Sep 23, 2013)

What the whole debacle with the CoR basically comes down to when you look at it is the fact that when set up properly it has a skull in it, which many masons are very afraid will scare the profane and confirm that we are in fact devil worshipers. 

Most of the discussions will be centered about whether or not it's Blue lodge and whether or not it's part of the authorized ritual, but most of the times it's the damn skull which is the issue.


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## JJones (Sep 23, 2013)

I don't see a point in worrying about outside opinions.  Once an organization starts trying to impress outsiders it loses it's focus IMO.

I'm curious why the CoR and the prep room can't be the same room?  It seems as though that'd make the most sense to me...put the candidate in the CoR and have him reflect, then when ready, the ritual can begin as though he had been sitting in a normal prep room all along.  There are no guidelines on how a prep room should be set up anyhow, is there?



> The first step is to say that's why the CoR must be optional.



I'm in absolute agreement on this.



> I haven't seen anybody post exactly what procedure and wording they want to use in the CoR, which I think would be required for the idea to be considered. And then you would have to explain why that is better than our current ceremony in the preparation room.



That's a fair point.  Here's a link to the guidelines that Michigan established for CoR usage in their district.  I think this is as good a start as any.  I couldn't find any of the guidelines that Colorado uses though.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zQPEJQHgQFSndhTW1sRk1WMkE/edit?pli=1


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## Brother JC (Sep 23, 2013)

Repeating myself, but my Lodge has used the CoR (with the "damned skull") for every Candidate (including myself) in the last 12 years, and not once has anyone left before their Initiation.

I'd be glad to send a PM detailing the way I've seen it done, using both the preparation room and a separate room.


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## dfreybur (Sep 24, 2013)

trysquare said:


> Repeating myself, but my Lodge has used the CoR (with the "damned skull") for every Candidate (including myself)in the last 12 years, and not once has anyone left before their Initiation.



So it's allowed in New Mexico then.  Very good to know CoR is in active used in a jurisdiction that is a next door neighbor to Texas.  Thanks!

You're listed in California with a lodge membership in New Mexico.  That's a huge commute, but I know a brother who bounced back and forth that far monthly.  He's the father of a father and son pair who went through the line in my mother lodge.  You must be so good a customer at Goodyear they've given you a ride on the blimp!


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## dfreybur (Sep 24, 2013)

JJones said:


> I don't see a point in worrying about outside opinions.  Once an organization starts trying to impress outsiders it loses it's focus IMO.



That's happened more than once once over the centuries.  Public charities were the result of doing exactly that yet they have been a core value longer than any living Mason can remember.  Having no interest in apologies to outsiders is one reason I like the Observant movement that has become popular recently.  I have gotten to the point that I rather like that certain outsiders object to us - It says we are living up to our values of open thought and open membership.



> I'm curious why the CoR and the prep room can't be the same room?



Answer specific to Texas and specific to this year - Because a lodge did it that way and screwed it up by introducing the candidate directly into a tiled lodge rather than switching the purpose of the room to non-ritual optional-imported-ritual Chamber of Reflection to the proscribed-ritual Preparation Room.  Making an error like that paints with a very broad brush.  In general the error got everything about CoR condemned this year.


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## Brother JC (Sep 24, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> So it's allowed in New Mexico then.  Very good to know CoR is in active used in a jurisdiction that is a next door neighbor to Texas.  Thanks!
> 
> You're listed in California with a lodge membership in New Mexico.  That's a huge commute, but I know a brother who bounced back and forth that far monthly.  He's the father of a father and son pair who went through the line in my mother lodge.  You must be so good a customer at Goodyear they've given you a ride on the blimp!


I'm new to Cali and not commuting, to NM or East Lancs (that would be the blimp ride!). I'm visiting one of the local Lodges and will probably Petition to Affiliate soon. Then I have to decide if I'm keeping both NM lodges... tough call.

To my knowledge, only two Lodges in NM use the CoR, and they are in the same building. For the past couple years, Cerrillos Lodge has used the one Montezuma set up, but they are putting their own together now. Cerrillos actually voted against it several years ago when I made a motion to use it, but a recent WM decided to implement it without a vote, and no one argued.
Grand Lodge has never approved, or forbidden, its use. It does not affect or change the Ritual, so they have let it be used at the Lodge's discretion. Cerrillos is also now including the Chain of Union at the end of their meetings.


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## dfreybur (Sep 24, 2013)

trysquare said:


> Cerrillos is also now including the Chain of Union at the end of their meetings.



So far I've only experienced that at Scottish Rite States meetings in Raleigh, NC.  Illumination #5 in Illinois excuses visitors and does it members only so I was out of the lodge room when they did it.


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## Roy Vance (Sep 26, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> So far I've only experienced that at Scottish Rite States meetings in Raleigh, NC. Illumination #5 in Illinois excuses visitors and does it members only so I was out of the lodge room when they did it.



I wonder why they would excuse the visitors, aren't they part of the chain, also? That seems sort of discriminitory to me. Just sayin'.


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 16, 2015)

I went through the AASR this past weekend and was in a Chamber of Reflection. Had heard of them but this was my first actual experience with one.


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## The Traveling Man (Mar 13, 2016)

The Chamber of Reflection is a great experience. My current Jurisdiction doesn't do it, and most other Lodges in the U.S. don't either (although there are, I think, 10 in Louisiana that do), but prior to joining my current Lodge I was a Co-Mason and they use the Scottish Rite Craft rituals so at my first Initiated I was placed in the CofR. I think it should be adopted by all GL's. It is very beneficial.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 14, 2016)

The Traveling Man said:


> I think it should be adopted by all GL's. It is very beneficial.


I totally agree.


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## Classical (Mar 14, 2016)

Why not build your own at home? After all, some men build "man caves" to watch sporting events or some other type of superficial nonsense. But Masons could build their home studies into Chambers of Reflection.


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## Mindovermatter Ace (Jan 19, 2018)

Being a mason from Louisiana, I have a slight disdain for other jurisdiction mixing Rites in clandestine ways, such as incorporation of the Chamber of Reflection into an Ancient Craft Masonic lodge. I prefer that the Scottish Rite be preserved in its proper form, meaning operated  and worked by true Scottish Rite lodges which were born of the Rite; not of a Grand Lodge dispensation, and personally consider it a mockery of that part of the Craft to charter a Scottish Rite lodge for the pleasure or entertainment of brothers. In my humble opinion, it takes away from those true Scottish Rite lodges what have fought to keep their traditions alive, against the will of those who sought to eliminate it during the 19th century. Just my two cents.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 19, 2018)

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> Being a mason from Louisiana, I have a slight disdain for other jurisdiction mixing Rites in clandestine ways, such as incorporation of the Chamber of Reflection into an Ancient Craft Masonic lodge. I prefer that the Scottish Rite be preserved in its proper form, meaning operated  and worked by true Scottish Rite lodges which were born of the Rite; not of a Grand Lodge dispensation, and personally consider it a mockery of that part of the Craft to charter a Scottish Rite lodge for the pleasure or entertainment of brothers. In my humble opinion, it takes away from those true Scottish Rite lodges what have fought to keep their traditions alive, against the will of those who sought to eliminate it during the 19th century. Just my two cents.


I don’t disagree with your general thought, but am bothered by the use of the words “disdain” and “clandestine” in this instance.  I don’t think the practice is clandestine, either in the common use of the term or a a Masonic term of art. Surely disdain isn’t the better word. Perhaps object?  Bemused?


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## hanzosbm (Jan 19, 2018)

California allows the COR, and it is codified, but in my opinion, it has been so sanitized as to defeat the purpose. 

Some of the original CORs incorporated symbols from well outside of Masonry (alchemical and astrological to name a few) as well as inscriptions in Latin.  There was a time when the brothers joining were highly educated and would have recognized these symbols and understood their purpose and how it related to their preparation for initiation.  Those days are gone.  Having alchemical symbolism in the COR now serves only to make it seem more occult than it is and doesn't really contribute anything.  At the same time, California goes so far as to remove the skull (in my opinion, the second or third most important item in the COR and one that can easily be understood).  Unless a lecture was added to the degree (fat chance of that happening) explaining some of the symbolism (V.I.T.R.I.O.L.  to me is not only beautiful, but a very clever play on words once you understand it) then I thing that anything being inscribed on the walls ought to be in the native language (in our case, English), on the table ought to be the skull, a mirror, a candle, a pen, and a sheet of paper, and that's it. 

Of course, that's just my opinion, which, added to $7, might get you a cup of over roasted coffee.


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## Mindovermatter Ace (Jan 19, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> I don’t disagree with your general thought, but am bothered by the use of the words “disdain” and “clandestine” in this instance.  I don’t think the practice is clandestine, either in the common use of the term or a a Masonic term of art. Surely disdain isn’t the better word. Perhaps object?  Bemused?




Agreed. Perhaps I need to reassess my word usage. You're right. "Disdain," was a poor word of choice. I'm just of the opinion that Scottish Rite traditions should be respected and preserved by authentic and true Scottish Rite lodges and to charter a lodge with absolutely no lineage to the Rite just to appease brothers does a great injustice to those lodges that are true in form. IJS.

Moreover, an Ancient Craft lodge adopting a practice of the Scottish Rite is lawfully clandestine, IMHO. I feel that brothers need to learn the American history of Scottish Rite Craft lodges, and how they fought to preserve their lodges; i.e. The Grand Lodge of Mississippi's invasion and hostile takeover of the French Grand Lodge of Louisiana in 1847; thereby gaining a better understanding and respect for those historical lodges.


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## LK600 (Jan 19, 2018)

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> Agreed. Perhaps I need to reassess my word usage. You're right. "Disdain," was a poor word of choice. I'm just of the opinion that Scottish Rite traditions should be respected and preserved by authentic and true Scottish Rite lodges and to charter a lodge with absolutely no lineage to the Rite just to appease brothers does a great injustice to those lodges that are true in form. IJS.
> 
> Moreover, an Ancient Craft lodge adopting a practice of the Scottish Rite is lawfully clandestine, IMHO.


Can you show me documentation where it "belongs" to the Scottish rite?  Can you give me something prior to 1762?


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## Mindovermatter Ace (Jan 19, 2018)

LK600 said:


> Can you show me documentation where it "belongs" to the Scottish rite?  Can you give me something prior to 1762?



You can't find the Chamber of Reflection in any form or fashion in Ancient Craft Masonry. There are plenty of references. It's also common knowledge and common sense to know that it was NEVER practiced in Ancient Craft Masonry, because the adoption of it and it's popularity is new and due to new interest in practices of the Scottish Rite.  Examine the rituals. You can compare the rituals to see. I'm not going to cite any references to this because there's far too much literature out there to support what I'm saying.


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## LK600 (Jan 19, 2018)

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> You can't find the Chamber of Reflection in any form or fashion in Ancient Craft Masonry. There are plenty of references. It's also common knowledge and common sense to know that it was NEVER practiced in Ancient Craft Masonry, because the adoption of it and it's popularity is new and due to new interest in practices of the Scottish Rite.  Examine the rituals. You can compare the rituals to see. I'm not going to cite any references to this because there's far too much literature out there to support what I'm saying.


Then excuse me not having "common sense" but my question is valid, meaning not necessarily intended to be an argument.  I have found several avenues, this one copied from the Masonic restoration foundation (originally printed on Jachin and Boaz; An authentic key to the door of freemasonry: 1762. (archive.org), discussing this vary thing,  

As I've already advised, i am not trying to suggest your wrong; only trying to locate the truth.  And I mean no offense by saying, "because I said so" doesn't work for me.


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## Mindovermatter Ace (Jan 19, 2018)

LK600 said:


> Then excuse me not having "common sense" but my question is valid, meaning not necessarily intended to be an argument.  I have found several avenues, this one copied from the Masonic restoration foundation (originally printed on Jachin and Boaz; An authentic key to the door of freemasonry: 1762. (archive.org), discussing this vary thing,
> 
> As I've already advised, i am not trying to suggest your wrong; only trying to locate the truth.  And I mean no offense by saying, "because I said so" doesn't work for me.



I meant no offense toward you by saying it's common sense. What I'm saying is that anyone can examine the rituals and see the Chamber of Reflection is NOT a part of Ancient Craft Ritual and never was. You don't have to take my word for it; I never expected you to. If you re-read my comments, you can discern that I implored you to search for yourself. *wink*


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## hanzosbm (Jan 19, 2018)

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> You can't find the Chamber of Reflection in any form or fashion in Ancient Craft Masonry. There are plenty of references. It's also common knowledge and common sense to know that it was NEVER practiced in Ancient Craft Masonry, because the adoption of it and it's popularity is new and due to new interest in practices of the Scottish Rite.  Examine the rituals. You can compare the rituals to see. I'm not going to cite any references to this because there's far too much literature out there to support what I'm saying.


I can find a reference to it being used in 1762 in craft Masonry in a lodge in London under the UGLE (expose title Jachin and Boaz).  I'd say that's pretty regular.  Do you have something earlier from the Scottish Rite?
As for the argument that it is new, well...obviously not.  As for the argument that it isn't widely used, there are a lot of early aspect of craft Masonry that are no longer in common use, that doesn't mean they didn't start there.
As for not citing any references to your claim...well, that's your call, but when I can cite them to the contrary and you can't, don't expect to be taken seriously.


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## LK600 (Jan 19, 2018)

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> I meant no offense toward you by saying it's common sense. What I'm saying is that anyone can examine the rituals and see the Chamber of Reflection is NOT a part of Ancient Craft Ritual and never was. You don't have to take my word for it; I never expected you to. If you re-read my comments, you can discern that I implored you to search for yourself. *wink*


But I did, and found it as stated above.  If it's inaccurate... if my understanding is faulty... if I am wrong at all is what I was asking I guess.  Thanks you.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 19, 2018)

Speaking of V.I.T.R.I.O.L., this forum has become just that it seems.


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## LK600 (Jan 19, 2018)

CLewey44 said:


> Speaking of V.I.T.R.I.O.L., this forum has become just that it seems.


I can't argue with that Brother.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 19, 2018)

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> Agreed. Perhaps I need to reassess my word usage. You're right. "Disdain," was a poor word of choice. I'm just of the opinion that Scottish Rite traditions should be respected and preserved by authentic and true Scottish Rite lodges and to charter a lodge with absolutely no lineage to the Rite just to appease brothers does a great injustice to those lodges that are true in form. IJS.
> 
> Moreover, an Ancient Craft lodge adopting a practice of the Scottish Rite is lawfully clandestine, IMHO. I feel that brothers need to learn the American history of Scottish Rite Craft lodges, and how they fought to preserve their lodges; i.e. The Grand Lodge of Mississippi's invasion and hostile takeover of the French Grand Lodge of Louisiana in 1847; thereby gaining a better understanding and respect for those historical lodges.


Umm. Lawfully clandestine?  Is that not oxymoronic?  
I agree that CoR are best left in either AASR or KT.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 19, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> I agree that CoR are best left in either AASR or KT.


I can go along with this.


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## hanzosbm (Jan 19, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> I agree that CoR are best left in either AASR or KT.


Respectively, and possibly naively, I disagree.

Both the exoteric purpose of the COR (allowing a man a moment of mental and spiritual preparation before beginning this journey) and the esoteric ideas (mortality, the nature of the soul, and final judgement) both very much pertain to the EA degree.

And, while I am not a member of either of the aforementioned rites and thus don't understand their context, as the old expression goes, you only get once chance to make a first impression.


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## LK600 (Jan 19, 2018)

Warrior1256 said:


> I can go along with this.



I'm trying to... just cant find anything that supports it yet.


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## chrmc (Jan 19, 2018)

hanzosbm said:


> I can find a reference to it being used in 1762 in craft Masonry in a lodge in London under the UGLE (expose title Jachin and Boaz).  I'd say that's pretty regular.  Do you have something earlier from the Scottish Rite?
> As for the argument that it is new, well...obviously not.  As for the argument that it isn't widely used, there are a lot of early aspect of craft Masonry that are no longer in common use, that doesn't mean they didn't start there.
> As for not citing any references to your claim...well, that's your call, but when I can cite them to the contrary and you can't, don't expect to be taken seriously.



Exactly this. Brother Andrew Hammer has written a good little guide to the history of the COR, and there is plenty of evidence that it existed already in the 1700s as part of Craft Masonry. Both in the English Rites, but certainly also in the Swedish Rite. So saying that there is no evidence earlier, is simply incorrect by the brother from Louisiana. 

Saying that they belong to the first degrees of the AASR, shows a lack of understanding of how that rite developed and formed. The rituals we know today and historically, even back to Morin clearly had earlier origins, and there is no evidence, as far as I'm aware that the COR shows up in those rituals as the first place in Masonry. 

The main challenge with proving the position of the COR historically is that most of the exposes dealt with the rituals, and what happened inside the lodge. Few touch on how a Mason was prepared, and what happened before the initiations.


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## chrmc (Jan 19, 2018)

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> You can't find the Chamber of Reflection in any form or fashion in Ancient Craft Masonry. There are plenty of references. It's also common knowledge and common sense to know that it was NEVER practiced in Ancient Craft Masonry, because the adoption of it and it's popularity is new and due to new interest in practices of the Scottish Rite.  Examine the rituals. You can compare the rituals to see. I'm not going to cite any references to this because there's far too much literature out there to support what I'm saying.



Brother, I think this is a case where it would be beneficial to cite some references to support your claim. As I read it you state that the COR is new, and that it comes based on interest in the Scottish rite? If that is the case, then there doesn't seem to be that much that supports this notion as far as I can see.


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## Ripcord22A (Jan 19, 2018)

The CoR isn’t even part of the ritual, at least not in NM.  It’s just a room with some stuff in it, that the candidate is left prior to be being prepared by the Deacons.  Honestly for a candidate that is about to take the EA the stuff means nothing.  And his brain is so jelly by the time the degrees over that he won’t remember what was in to begin with......


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


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## David612 (Jan 19, 2018)

Ripcord22A said:


> The CoR isn’t even part of the ritual, at least not in NM.  It’s just a room with some stuff in it, that the candidate is left prior to be being prepared by the Deacons.  Honestly for a candidate that is about to take the EA the stuff means nothing.  And his brain is so jelly by the time the degrees over that he won’t remember what was in to begin with......
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


“A Traditional Observance Lodge” 
Mentioned this sort of practice, honestly I fully support the idea, of adding these elements brings more zeal to learning and performing the degrees and expands brothers interest it’s a great thing.


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## Ripcord22A (Jan 19, 2018)

David612 said:


> “A Traditional Observance Lodge”
> Mentioned this sort of practice, honestly I fully support the idea, of adding these elements brings more zeal to learning and performing the degrees and expands brothers interest it’s a great thing.


And my Lodge in NM is THE only TO in NM

Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## David612 (Jan 19, 2018)

Ripcord22A said:


> And my Lodge in NM is THE only TO in NM
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


Great to hear, I have been told we have a similar system I’m told here where a lodge can become accredited as a lodge of excellence however I’m not sure about the process and unfortunately we don’t have one that meets at our temple or the surrounding region.
If modifying the practices leading up to and after the ritual get the results that book reports lodges would have to be stupid to not look at their own practices while continuing to complain about the lack of members, quality work or what have you.
I have handed my copy to my WM/mentor and have told my DGIW he’s getting it next once he’s finished lost keys  we always have lots to talk about.


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## LK600 (Jan 20, 2018)

Ripcord22A said:


> The CoR isn’t even part of the ritual, at least not in NM.  It’s just a room with some stuff in it, that the candidate is left prior to be being prepared by the Deacons.  Honestly for a candidate that is about to take the EA the stuff means nothing.  And his brain is so jelly by the time the degrees over that he won’t remember what was in to begin with......
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


Agreed Brother.  I think this discussion is more academic (The COR began as a Ancient/regular Lodge practice verses it didn't show up until the Scottish rite was formed). 

I am finding that while (it appears) the evidence shows it absolutely began in the 1700's in regular Lodge systems, Some American Grand Lodges have sort of an aversion to it.  I have seen suggestions of mysticism being put forth of the reasoning.  It's rather interesting.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 20, 2018)

chrmc said:


> Exactly this. Brother Andrew Hammer has written a good little guide to the history of the COR, and there is plenty of evidence that it existed already in the 1700s as part of Craft Masonry. Both in the English Rites, but certainly also in the Swedish Rite. So saying that there is no evidence earlier, is simply incorrect by the brother from Louisiana.
> 
> Saying that they belong to the first degrees of the AASR, shows a lack of understanding of how that rite developed and formed. The rituals we know today and historically, even back to Morin clearly had earlier origins, and there is no evidence, as far as I'm aware that the COR shows up in those rituals as the first place in Masonry.
> 
> The main challenge with proving the position of the COR historically is that most of the exposes dealt with the rituals, and what happened inside the lodge. Few touch on how a Mason was prepared, and what happened before the initiations.


Name of the book?


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## LK600 (Jan 20, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Name of the book?


I believe the book he is referring to is this linked below.

https://www.amazon.com/Observing-Craft-Pursuit-Excellence-Observance/dp/0981831613


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## chrmc (Jan 20, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Name of the book?



It was this text I was referring to. http://observingthecraft.com/ATimeWithPatience.pdf
And in there he quotes the expose "Jachin  and Boaz" as a good example of older sourcing strongly hinting at the existence of a COR back in the 1700s.


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## LK600 (Jan 20, 2018)

chrmc said:


> It was this text I was referring to. http://observingthecraft.com/ATimeWithPatience.pdf
> And in there he quotes the expose "Jachin  and Boaz" as a good example of older sourcing strongly hinting at the existence of a COR back in the 1700s.


Yes, that paper was taken from the notes he amassed for the book I linked above.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 20, 2018)

chrmc said:


> It was this text I was referring to. http://observingthecraft.com/ATimeWithPatience.pdf
> And in there he quotes the expose "Jachin  and Boaz" as a good example of older sourcing strongly hinting at the existence of a COR back in the 1700s.


Thanks. That is a commonly known expose. That description is not in my experience the same as the chamber of reflection at issue here.  Indeed, this is much the same as done in Utah and other jurisdictions.


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## LK600 (Jan 20, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Thanks. That is a commonly known expose. That description is not in my experience the same as the chamber of reflection at issue here.  Indeed, this is much the same as done in Utah and other jurisdictions.



So your not talking about the historical Chamber of Reflection that we are (and Hammer)?


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## Glen Cook (Jan 20, 2018)

LK600 said:


> So your not talking about the historical Chamber of Reflection that we are (and Hammer)?


Let me rephrase. I haven’t seen the the CoR of the AASR and KT used in the ancient ritual craft lodge, that is, I’ve not seen evidence of documents written, objects or  symbols to reflect upon, used in the ancient craft lodge.


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## LK600 (Jan 20, 2018)

Understood.  Thanks


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## chrmc (Jan 21, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Let me rephrase. I haven’t seen the the CoR of the AASR and KT used in the ancient ritual craft lodge, that is, I’ve not seen evidence of documents written, objects or  symbols to reflect upon, used in the ancient craft lodge.



I think this captures the discussion  about the COR very well, because when exactly is it a COR, and when is it just a preparation room for the candidates to sit in. Do we have to have all the implements? What about just some of them?


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