# Greetings from Portugal



## DanielR

Hello my Brothers. I'm a 34-year-old Entered Apprentice from Lisbon and would like to extend a very fraternal greeting to all. Having gotten my a academic degrees in Philosophy, I found in Freemasonry a welcoming home for my contemplative propensities, and since I was initiated I have found in my reading and writing on all aspects of masonic symbolism and in conversations with my Brothers a great source of inspirarion personal development. I would not have thought it before I joined, in truth. The avenues for personal enlightenment and research that the this path opens are really the only masonic secrets anyone should be interested in. 

And I thought I'd share a picture of a very informal gathering in our Temple in which we all just watched a video on Freemasonry around the world and then talked about it, sharing ideas, thoughts and experiences. Not a bad way to spend an evening. 

If you're ever in this corner of Europe, consider yourselves welcome! 




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## Glen Cook

May I ask your Grand lodge?


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## DanielR

Glen Cook said:


> May I ask your Grand lodge?


Grande Loja Unida de Portugal - www.glup.pt.

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## Glen Cook

Thank you. Everyone is welcome here, but the majority of us may not visit your lodge, as we are not in “amity.”  This is the grand lodge the majority of us recognise:  https://www.gllp.pt/


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## DanielR

Glen Cook said:


> Thank you. Everyone is welcome here, but the majority of us may not visit your lodge, as we are not in “amity.”  This is the grand lodge the majority of us recognise:  https://www.gllp.pt/


Yes, I am well aware. My Grand Lodge is new. But a brother is a brother so even if you cannot visit my lodge, I can still buy you a beer. 

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## Glen Cook

DanielR said:


> Yes, I am well aware. My Grand Lodge is new. But a brother is a brother so even if you cannot visit my lodge, I can still buy you a beer.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J730F using My Freemasonry mobile app


Well, no, it is not because your Grand Lodge is new. We have new grand lodges that are recognised. It is because your grand lodge was not, in our view, properly founded. 
And, while all human beings are brothers, we are not Masonic brothers.


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## DanielR

Glen Cook said:


> Well, no, it is not because your Grand Lodge is new. We have new grand lodges that are recognised. It is because your grand lodge was not, in our view, properly founded.
> And, while all human beings are brothers, we are not Masonic brothers.


I am not interested in politics, though I know full well what you are referring to. I chose my Grand Lodge after careful consideration for reasons which I would explain to you if you considered yourself my Masonic brother, but since you do not, I will respectfully return to silence and keep the beer offer on the table as a human brother. 

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## Glen Cook

DanielR said:


> I am not interested in politics, though I know full well what you are referring to. I chose my Grand Lodge after careful consideration for reasons which I would explain to you if you considered yourself my Masonic brother, but since you do not, I will respectfully return to silence and keep the beer offer on the table as a human brother.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J730F using My Freemasonry mobile app


Indeed, some people do make an educated choice,  and I do not quarrel with that choice. However, I have obligations and duties to note the choice so mistakes are not made. Again, all are welcome here, and I think many would be interested in your decision making.


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## DanielR

Another tale for another time, I believe, my dear Glen. All I can tell you is that I refused all previous invitations from other more well established Portuguese Grand Lodges. Though I am an Entered Apprentice, I have known freemasons all my life. Upon learning of this Grand Lodge, I took it upon myself to seek to join it out in hopes of being accepted in it. Now that I have, I would not switch for any reason, least of which political. I am a freemason, as are my brothers who have been freemasons for decades and joined this Grand Lodge for similar reasons as my own.

International recognition will come in due time. Or not. The fact of the matter is I don't really care. I know the reality of Portugal and have made my decision on sound reasons and reasoning, and on my knowledge, shared by many, of what Freemasonry is and should be. I am happy to know I belong to Regular Grand Lodge, and to those who don't believe that to be true, I will respect you nevertheless, and will observe my duties towards you as a freemason whether or not you recognize me as one.

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## Warrior1256

Greetings and welcome to the forum.


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## Bloke

DanielR said:


> I am not interested in politics, though I know full well what you are referring to. I chose my Grand Lodge after careful consideration for reasons which I would explain to you if you considered yourself my Masonic brother, but since you do not, I will respectfully return to silence and keep the beer offer on the table as a human brother.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J730F using My Freemasonry mobile app


I'm Australian. We generally always respond favourably to offers of beer.

What attracted you to this Grand Lodge over the others that most of us would be in amity with ?


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## LK600

Beer?  ...did someone say beer?

In the support of free beer... I can drink with brothers or friends any time.


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## DanielR

It is difficult to discuss this issue without naming names amd telling tales, which I will not do, and even more difficult to understand it watching from afar. In simplified terms, the Grand Lodge of Portugal which you are in amity with is in enormous internal strife and public controversy. The Masters who got together to create the Grand Lodge I am a member of were either expelled from it or joined those who were expelled out of solidarity, and this happened for reasons which are known to the public. The Grand Lodge you are in amity with saw his Vice Grand Master being expelled just this month under accusations of treason (not surprisingly, they are on the brink of elections). Finally, that Grand Lodge has well established ties with Portuguese politics and politicians, which I do not feel comfortable with as a citizen. And of course, there was the issue of the creation of the Portuguese Rite, which I will not get into, but which I will say became very ugly and petty.

The men who split from this Grand Lodge to create the new Grand Lodge in 2016 (the one I chose to join) have been freemasons for decades in some cases. They knew very well that they would not be immediately recognized by other Grand Lodges (though that is changing, in France for instance). They did it anyway to return to the principles of speculative freemasonry and move away from political and antimasonic convulsions and power trips that continue to this day to blemish the name of Freemasonry in my country's public eye. 

Now, I am a trained philosopher, which means I am not swayed by fallacious reasoning. You cannot pull the wool over my eyes. I cannot therefore belong to a Grand Lodge whose echelon I do not believe (with notable exceptions, of course) to be composed of true freemasons regardless of their rhetoric. I feel very comfortable calling myself a brother of these men of character I know, brave and honest all, who left the warmth of international amity so as to preserve their integrity as  and that of Portuguese Freemasonry and democracy. I have learned great lessons in humility from its wise Worshipful Masters, and from the Grand Master who I am proud and honored to have as a brother.

So my friends, I reiterate: I will hope that the truth will become more obvious in the time to come, and that my Grand Lodge will one day be recognized by what it already is and has been from its inception - a bastion of masonic principles and regularity. Until then, myself and its members will continue to treat all freemasons as brothers, even when it is not mutual such as is the case here, and will be there whenever any of you is in need - even if only of a beer. Dixit.

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## Glen Cook

Well, at the moment I am next door in España, and have attended the the GL in Portugal and visited with the  Grand secretary and grand master last month. 

Certainly, there can be sufficient disruption in a GL to cause a suspension of recognition,  as seen with GLNF. 

By treason, I think you mean in terms of Masonic law, correct?  I’m aware of US GLs expelling a DGM or even GM. Previously, that has not been sufficient to cause a withdrawal of recognition.

 Beginning a new Grand Lodge with  expelled Masons is problematic. That was one of the issues with the lack of recognition of Liechtenstein. 

I’m unaware of any fallacious reasoning in this conversation, and such comments are usually not helpful. It is better to point out the error in reasoning and explain why it is thought to be error. 

Which University did you attend?  Do you teach now?


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## Bloke

DanielR said:


> It is difficult to discuss this issue without naming names amd telling tales, which I will not do, and even more difficult to understand it watching from afar. In simplified terms, the Grand Lodge of Portugal which you are in amity with is in enormous internal strife and public controversy. The Masters who got together to create the Grand Lodge I am a member of were either expelled from it or joined those who were expelled out of solidarity, and this happened for reasons which are known to the public. The Grand Lodge you are in amity with saw his Vice Grand Master being expelled just this month under accusations of treason (not surprisingly, they are on the brink of elections). Finally, that Grand Lodge has well established ties with Portuguese politics and politicians, which I do not feel comfortable with as a citizen. And of course, there was the issue of the creation of the Portuguese Rite, which I will not get into, but which I will say became very ugly and petty.
> 
> The men who split from this Grand Lodge to create the new Grand Lodge in 2016 (the one I chose to join) have been freemasons for decades in some cases. They knew very well that they would not be immediately recognized by other Grand Lodges (though that is changing, in France for instance). They did it anyway to return to the principles of speculative freemasonry and move away from political and antimasonic convulsions and power trips that continue to this day to blemish the name of Freemasonry in my country's public eye.
> 
> Now, I am a trained philosopher, which means I am not swayed by fallacious reasoning. You cannot pull the wool over my eyes. I cannot therefore belong to a Grand Lodge whose echelon I do not believe (with notable exceptions, of course) to be composed of true freemasons regardless of their rhetoric. I feel very comfortable calling myself a brother of these men of character I know, brave and honest all, who left the warmth of international amity so as to preserve their integrity as  and that of Portuguese Freemasonry and democracy. I have learned great lessons in humility from its wise Worshipful Masters, and from the Grand Master who I am proud and honored to have as a brother.
> 
> So my friends, I reiterate: I will hope that the truth will become more obvious in the time to come, and that my Grand Lodge will one day be recognized by what it already is and has been from its inception - a bastion of masonic principles and regularity. Until then, myself and its members will continue to treat all freemasons as brothers, even when it is not mutual such as is the case here, and will be there whenever any of you is in need - even if only of a beer. Dixit.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J730F using My Freemasonry mobile app



Thanks for the long reply. I think following your conscience appears sound, and to all, I wish them well, and a path of virtue.

I know nothing of the situation you describe, but as Bro Glenn alludes to, GLs do loose recognition if they are seen as "disrupted" which I read as corrupt or not confirming to shared values, but sometimes sovereignty is also recognized as a factor to continue recognition. Only time will tell, but regardless of which GL we belong to, let's hope we're employing Freemasonry in our lives to improve our character and the lives of those around us.

I note again your mention of beer. I offer you a *cyber beer*.... but I must ask, "Dixit" at the end of your message is not something I understand...


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## DanielR

Glen Cook said:


> Well, at the moment I am next door in España, and have attended the the GL in Portugal and visited with the  Grand secretary and grand master last month.
> 
> Certainly, there can be sufficient disruption in a GL to cause a suspension of recognition,  as seen with GLNF.
> 
> By treason, I think you mean in terms of Masonic law, correct?  I’m aware of US GLs expelling a DGM or even GM. Previously, that has not been sufficient to cause a withdrawal of recognition.
> 
> Beginning a new Grand Lodge with  expelled Masons is problematic. That was one of the issues with the lack of recognition of Liechtenstein.
> 
> I’m unaware of any fallacious reasoning in this conversation, and such comments are usually not helpful. It is better to point out the error in reasoning and explain why it is thought to be error.
> 
> Which University did you attend?  Do you teach now?


Let me start from the end. When speaking of fallacious reasoning I was not referring to this conversation - which would have been wrong and disrespectful - but to arguments that have been presented by the Portuguese Grand Lodge in question which has expelled or suspended an inordinate amount of masters in its recent past (more tham 10 now for differentbut related reasons). 

Secondly, not all founders of the new Grand Lodge were expelled. Most followed those who were expelled for ethical reasons. I am not aware of the situation of Liechtenstein but I would hesitate to compare realities of two such different countries. 

The VGM who was recently expelled had intentions to run for Grand Master, and the current Grand Master was not happy with that. The same happened with the current Grand Master of my Grand Lodge just before he was expelled. It doesn't take much to see a pattern emerging, though there were certainly other issues involved in the matter. If you wish to know more of the most recent expulsion, you will find it here. The whole story is of course not told here but it is not far off from what the news article says: http://visao.sapo.pt/actualidade/po...re-acusa-vice-de-falta-de-lealdade-e-demite-o.

Sorry, it's in Portuguese. 

This turmoil has been very public and it keeps on growing. I hope for the sake of Freemasonry that the true freemasons in that Grand Lodge come together and find a solution. Until such a time, I am sure more people will be expelled for "lack of loyalty" or outright "treason" against the Grand Master. I will not have my name associated with such an organisation, as many of my brothers would not.

I attended Nova University of Lisbon, where I got my Ba and Ma in Contemporary Philosophy. Quit my PhD halfway through to work in Africa. I am Deputy Principal of an international school in Lisbon now so I don't do much teaching anymore. I was a researcher of Philosophy of Mind for several years but my passion is Education so I only philosophize for kicks nowadays. 





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## DanielR

Bloke said:


> Thanks for the long reply. I think following your conscience appears sound, and to all, I wish them well, and a path of virtue.
> 
> I know nothing of the situation you describe, but as Bro Glenn alludes to, GLs do loose recognition if they are seen as "disrupted" which I read as corrupt or not confirming to shared values, but sometimes sovereignty is also recognized as a factor to continue recognition. Only time will tell, but regardless of which GL we belong to, let's hope we're employing Freemasonry in our lives to improve our character and the lives of those around us.
> 
> I note again your mention of beer. I offer you a *cyber beer*.... but I must ask, "Dixit" at the end of your message is not something I understand...


You are right, only time will tell and Freemasonry should be above these petty wars. 

I thank younfor the cyber beer! Got any cyber wine? I am, after all, Portuguese, so given a choice I will take the latter. And "Dixit" is just a Latin formula used when you finish a rant. It means "I have said". 

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## Warrior1256

Thank you for your detailed reasoning for joining the GL that you currently belong to. It explains a lot. I look forward to your postings.


LK600 said:


> Beer? ...did someone say beer?
> 
> In the support of free beer... I can drink with brothers or friends any time.


Lol....I'm with you Brother.


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## DanielR

Warrior1256 said:


> Thank you for your detailed reasoning for joining the GL that you currently belong to. It explains a lot. I look forward to your postings.
> 
> Lol....I'm with you Brother.


Thank you! 

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## vinceatwork

Hi Brother Daniel,

I will take you up on your offer of wine, if the GAOTU graces me with enough health to come to Europe and visit my brothers and friends in several Jurisdictions, some of which are recognized by (in Amity with) one of my two Grand Lodges, some with/by the other. 

There is a movement started some 10-15 years ago in Europe, to unite all Masons in friendship, regardless of (political) recognition/regularity/liberality etc. to which you may find consonance, as I do.

You can read more about it here:

http://www.freemasonryresearchforumqsa.com/the-timehascome-to-speak.php

Mantenha-se bem, irmão!


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## DanielR

vinceatwork said:


> Hi Brother Daniel,
> 
> I will take you up on your offer of wine, if the GAOTU graces me with enough health to come to Europe and visit my brothers and friends in several Jurisdictions, some of which are recognized by (in Amity with) one of my two Grand Lodges, some with/by the other.
> 
> There is a movement started some 10-15 years ago in Europe, to unite all Masons in friendship, regardless of (political) recognition/regularity/liberality etc. to which you may find consonance, as I do.
> 
> You can read more about it here:
> 
> http://www.freemasonryresearchforumqsa.com/the-timehascome-to-speak.php
> 
> Mantenha-se bem, irmão!


Hello Brother Vince!

Thank you for your kind worda and for sharing the word on that movement. I did not know about it but I hope it grows in numbers and strength because even though I do believe certain basic principles of regularity should be in place for a Grand Lodge to be internationally recognized, much of the argumentation for refusing or giving "amity" sounds all too much like the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. It is beneath what Freemasonry should be about.

I hope the GAOTU creates the opportunity for me to show you the meaning of Portuguese masonic fraternity. Be sure to let me know if you happen to pop by, it would be a pleasure meeting you. I have just the bottle for the occasion.

Até breve meu irmão!

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## Bloke

DanielR said:


> Hello Brother Vince!
> 
> Thank you for your kind worda and for sharing the word on that movement. I did not know about it but I hope it grows in numbers and strength because even though I do believe certain basic principles of regularity should be in place for a Grand Lodge to be internationally recognized, much of the argumentation for refusing or giving "amity" sounds all too much like the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. It is beneath what Freemasonry should be about.
> 
> I hope the GAOTU creates the opportunity for me to show you the meaning of Portuguese masonic fraternity. Be sure to let me know if you happen to pop by, it would be a pleasure meeting you. I have just the bottle for the occasion.
> 
> Até breve meu irmão!
> 
> Sent from my SM-J730F using My Freemasonry mobile app


Funny, I was just reading the Charges of a Freemason a few hours ago and the above reminded me of 

"He, of all men, should best understand that GOD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh at the outward appearance, but GOD looketh to the heart. A Mason is, therefore, particularly bound never to act against the dictates of his conscience."

It's the first charge and in relation to religion and faith, but reading your post made me think of it..


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## dfreybur

DanielR said:


> All I can tell you is that I refused all previous invitations from other more well established Portuguese Grand Lodges.



Another invitational jurisdiction.  I knew Germany was not the only one in Europe but did not know which others.



> International recognition will come in due time. Or not.



I am sad to hear of the turmoil.


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## DanielR

It is sad indeed...

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## Glen Cook

Like Paraguay, Italy and Bulgaria, it has been going on for decades. There are the four primary groups in Portugal (GO Lusitano is the oldest) and I’m unclear how many mixed.  

At a meeting in Madrid on Saturday we discussed some of these GLs again, not suggesting a merger, but simply an agreement to share jurisdiction. No go. Sigh.


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## DanielR

Glen Cook said:


> Like Paraguay, Italy and Bulgaria, it has been going on for decades. There are the four primary groups in Portugal (GO Lusitano is the oldest) and I’m unclear how many mixed.
> 
> At a meeting in Madrid on Saturday we discussed some of these GLs again, not suggesting a merger, but simply an agreement to share jurisdiction. No go. Sigh.


This may sound naive but may I ask what the rationale was for not sharing jurisdiction?

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## Glen Cook

In some cases, sheer bloody mindedness or desire for power. In others, such as Portugal, one senses they are too angry (with respect, review some of your posts above, and you are a newer Mason and have already drunk the Koolaid.  The views of those who love lived through the schism are likely more pronounced).  and the three GLs  practicing regular Masonry don’t wish to. I note I am a honorary GM in one obedience.  In Italy, as I understand, their respective constitutions each declare they are the only ones practicing regular Freemasonry. So, an agreement to share jurisdiction would require a constitutional change. Constitutional chsnges are, appropriately, more difficult. 
I note I’m only addressing those practicing regular Masonry.


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## Bloke

Glen Cook said:


> ...I note I am a honorary GM in one obedience.



Really ? I've never heard of that. Is it common and is there a country (or continent)  where this practice is restricted to ? What is the exact title which is bestowed ? Its not the best thing to google (chess etc) but i did find it in Alaska - and they are MW:
_"Honorary Grand Masters
To be nominated and selected for “Honorary Past Grand Master” is one of the highest honors you can receive as a Mason. To qualify, the person must be a Past Worshipful Master and demonstrated or performed some act that has made him stand out as a Past Worshipful Master. Below is a list of the Alaska Honorary Past Grand Masters.
1997 - M. W. Wendal H. Kuecker
2002 - M. W. Thomas O. Mickey
2010 - M. W. Donald P. Frizzell"_

http://www.grandlodgeofalaska.org/honorary-grand-masters

Well, I just made a masonic step in knowledge.. .... .. .. .. I did not know it can be a conferred rank - here we use Past Dep Grand Master - which is a big hint in itself that it is conferred...  I know this is gross thread drift, but did not want to take Bro Glen's post to another thread..


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## Glen Cook

Bloke said:


> Really ? I've never heard of that. Is it common and is there a country (or continent)  where this practice is restricted to ? What is the exact title which is bestowed ? Its not the best thing to google (chess etc) but i did find it in Alaska - and they are MW:
> _"Honorary Grand Masters
> To be nominated and selected for “Honorary Past Grand Master” is one of the highest honors you can receive as a Mason. To qualify, the person must be a Past Worshipful Master and demonstrated or performed some act that has made him stand out as a Past Worshipful Master. Below is a list of the Alaska Honorary Past Grand Masters.
> 1997 - M. W. Wendal H. Kuecker
> 2002 - M. W. Thomas O. Mickey
> 2010 - M. W. Donald P. Frizzell"_
> 
> http://www.grandlodgeofalaska.org/honorary-grand-masters
> 
> Well, I just made a masonic step in knowledge.. .... .. .. .. I did not know it can be a conferred rank - here we use Past Dep Grand Master - which is a big hint in itself that it is conferred...  I know this is gross thread drift, but did not want to take Bro Glen's post to another thread..


Well, if the OP doesn’t mind us derailing the discussion...

The concept surely varies. It is easier, I should think, if one is a substantive GM. It is often based on a perception of service to the fraternity, or as a favourite son if one is a GM outside his home state. I’ve also seen our sister PHA GL grant it  to a GM of Utah who had worked in Fraternal Relations between the two GLs. 

I’ve seen a Past Grand Secretary in Colorado awarded the PGM honour, and the inimitable Thomas Jackson, PGSec, who has flown more for the international fraternity than the next 20 of us put together. I can’t remember which jurisdiction awarded his. 

It is also common in Europe and Africa to receive honourary PGW ranks or a rank equivalent to that of the visiting foreign GLO. These tend to be granted more casually, in my experience. 

I’ve not seen UGLE do this. 

It is my view that, like an homoury doctorate, any privileges are limited to the  granting entity.


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## DanielR

Glen Cook said:


> In some cases, sheer bloody mindedness or desire for power. In others, such as Portugal, one senses they are too angry (with respect, review some of your posts above, and you are a newer Mason and have already drunk the Koolaid.  The views of those who love lived through the schism are likely more pronounced).  and the three GLs  practicing regular Masonry don’t wish to. I note I am a honorary GM in one obedience.  In Italy, as I understand, their respective constitutions each declare they are the only ones practicing regular Freemasonry. So, an agreement to share jurisdiction would require a constitutional change. Constitutional chsnges are, appropriately, more difficult.
> I note I’m only addressing those practicing regular Masonry.


Well, you seem to have me and my country all figured out. We're an angry lot. Look at this post for instance, which I read after absent-mindedly writing it. Passive-aggressive through and through.

With respect, there might be more to it than you think, and the use of the expression "you have drunk the Koolaid" may be considered by some, Masons and non-Masons alike, as perhaps overly condescending in light of the intelectual history of the new Mason you are now addressing, whom you know nothing about, and beneath your rank. But then again, thanks are in order. The overall attitude does shed light on many of the issues under discussion here, including that of recognition amongst Masons.

I will now return to the silence which is becoming of my Masonic rank (for those who recognize me as such, anyway), and seethe quietly in barely restrained fury, in keeping with my nationality. Best wishes to all.

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## Bloke

Glen Cook said:


> Well, if the OP doesn’t mind us derailing the discussion...
> 
> The concept surely varies. It is easier, I should think, if one is a substantive GM. It is often based on a perception of service to the fraternity, or as a favourite son if one is a GM outside his home state. I’ve also seen our sister PHA GL grant it  to a GM of Utah who had worked in Fraternal Relations between the two GLs.
> 
> I’ve seen a Past Grand Secretary in Colorado awarded the PGM honour, and the inimitable Thomas Jackson, PGSec, who has flown more for the international fraternity than the next 20 of us put together. I can’t remember which jurisdiction awarded his.
> 
> It is also common in Europe and Africa to receive honourary PGW ranks or a rank equivalent to that of the visiting foreign GLO. These tend to be granted more casually, in my experience.
> 
> I’ve not seen UGLE do this.
> 
> It is my view that, like an homoury doctorate, any privileges are limited to the  granting entity.


Thanks Bro Glen, as I said, that was a new one me.


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## Glen Cook

DanielR said:


> Well, you seem to have me and my country all figured out. We're an angry lot. Look at this post for instance, which I read after absent-mindedly writing it. Passive-aggressive through and through.
> 
> With respect, there might be more to it than you think, and the use of the expression "you have drunk the Koolaid" may be considered by some, Masons and non-Masons alike, as perhaps overly condescending in light of the intelectual history of the new Mason you are now addressing, whom you know nothing about, and beneath your rank. But then again, thanks are in order. The overall attitude does shed light on many of the issues under discussion here, including that of recognition amongst Masons.
> 
> I will now return to the silence which is becoming of my Masonic rank (for those who recognize me as such, anyway), and seethe quietly in barely restrained fury, in keeping with my nationality. Best wishes to all.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J730F using My Freemasonry mobile app


You err. I made no comment about your country. I did note that on this issue there is still anger on both sides of this issue. Your comments even as a new member denigrating the other obedience well demonstrate it. One could make the same argument about Paraguay. Cf Brazil, where obediences seemed to largely get along before the recent recognitions. 

I understand that you choose to also take offense at the Kool aid comment.  You, as a new member, have already adopted the repeated group speak of those to whom you ally yourself—a view taken by both sides!  It is, to me, a doomed road which Portuguese Freemasonry has taken. And that’s my apparently not well made point: this is an attitude for both sides and for inexperienced and experienced members alike. You have well proven my point. 

Actually, you have told us some your intellectual history.It clearly is important to you.  It may well surpass mine. Indeed, I asked you questions about it. I am interested if you now teach. 

As to rank, this is Masonry. I do not consider Masonic rank to be particularly relevant in life. It is part of ritual and ceremony. Otherwise, it doesn’t gain traction for me. 

So, shall we leave this and turn to more pleasant topics (one of which would not be the weather in Paris today)?


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## DanielR

Glen Cook said:


> You err. I made no comment about your country. I did note that on this issue there is still anger on both sides of this issue. Your comments even as a new member denigrating the other obedience well demonstrate it. One could make the same argument about Paraguay. Cf Brazil, where obediences seemed to largely get along before the recent recognitions.
> 
> I understand that you choose to also take offense at the Kool aid comment.  You, as a new member, have already adopted the repeated group speak of those to whom you ally yourself—a view taken by both sides!  It is, to me, a doomed road which Portuguese Freemasonry has taken. And that’s my apparently not well made point: this is an attitude for both sides and for inexperienced and experienced members alike. You have well proven my point.
> 
> Actually, you have told us some your intellectual history.It clearly is important to you.  It may well surpass mine. Indeed, I asked you questions about it. I am interested if you now teach.
> 
> As to rank, this is Masonry. I do not consider Masonic rank to be particularly relevant in life. It is part of ritual and ceremony. Otherwise, it doesn’t gain traction for me.
> 
> So, shall we leave this and turn to more pleasant topics (one of which would not be the weather in Paris today)?


By all means, my dear Glen, by all means. But just to be clear, this "repeated group speak" you talk of  is all over the news and is causing people to leave in droves to join my Grand Lodge. I just spoke to one of them in a session two days ago and he described the situation as "chaotic". This was someone who at the time was still in the Grand Lodge you are in amity with (though he has now joined mine). This is just a side note to clarify that I have not been brainwashed - the only reason I brought up my intellectual history was to clarify how improbable that is. I am simply stating facts which have been reported from within and from without. Do with that information as you please. 

Whether Portuguese Freemasonry is in a doomed path or not is for neither of us to say. All I can do is measure the character of those who call themselves Freemasons through the tools Freemasonry gives us. I am not denigrating the other obedience, I believe I was abundantly clear in saying I was not talking about it as a whole. I spoke only of the Grand Master, whom I do not recognize as a Freemason, again, for reasons which are unfortunately very public and corroborated by many Masons. 

The weather in Lisbon would be an equally unpleasant topic today so let us wait in hope for sunnier days, literally and figuratively.

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## Bloke

Glen Cook said:


> ...As to rank, this is Masonry. I do not consider Masonic rank to be particularly relevant in life. It is part of ritual and ceremony. Otherwise, it doesn’t gain traction for me...



Wise words. I would also add that any rank is primarily  about duty and not privilege.


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## Glen Cook

[

Sent from my SM-J730F using My Freemasonry mobile app[/QUOTE]


Bloke said:


> Wise words. I would also add that any rank is primarily  about duty and not privilege.


except for a Pokémon level. That’s real.


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## Matt L

Welcome Daniel.  As Brother Warrior stated in another thread, I've learned a lot in this one.  Brother Glen, safe travels.


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## DanielR

Matt L said:


> Welcome Daniel.  As Brother Warrior stated in another thread, I've learned a lot in this one.  Brother Glen, safe travels.


Thanks Matt. Cheers!

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## Glen Cook

Matt L said:


> Welcome Daniel.  As Brother Warrior stated in another thread, I've learned a lot in this one.  Brother Glen, safe travels.


Thanks. I’m attending the investiture of the new First Principal for Supreme Grand Chapter of Scotland today. I’ve never had occasion to do so. I think the incumbent served for nine years.


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## Matt L

Glen Cook said:


> Thanks. I’m attending the investiture of the new First Principal for Supreme Grand Chapter of Scotland today. I’ve never had occasion to do so. I think the incumbent served for nine years.



I was going to try and make it to Manchester Hall UK this Saturday. But had to cancel, having some difficulties with an eye and my Doctor didn't want me to fly.  I'm going to miss my Grand Lodge session this year, scheduled for laser surgery. 
Brother Glen, you are and outstanding ambassador for the fraternity and have served your Church and Country well.


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## Glen Cook

Does the doctor not understand the importance of a  masonic diary?  

I do my best


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## DanielR

http://visao.sapo.pt/actualidade/portugal/2018-03-23-Contas-da-maconaria-sob-suspeita

This just keeps going from bad to worse. Now the Grand Master of the Grand Lodge you are in amity with is being sued in civil court for inappropriate use of funds. Freemasonry is being dragged through the mud in full view of the profane Portugal because of this man. Utter chaos, and again, I am very happy to have no part in it save in welcoming brothers who have left it. 

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## Glen Cook

As you gain experience, you will find that our leadership sometimes disappoints, and learn to separate the leader from the organisation. If we were to abandon the organisation when this occurred, we should shortly be sitting by ourselves st home.


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## DanielR

Glen Cook said:


> As you gain experience, you will find that our leadership sometimes disappoints, and learn to separate the leader from the organisation. If we were to abandon the organisation when this occurred, we should shortly be sitting by ourselves st home.


For the third time in this conversation, I am not equating the leader with the organisation. And again, you seem to believe you know a lot about my experience and where it is lacking, since you feel the need to impart wisdom unto me in aphorism format. Now, had you known that I have actually been a part on a nationwide programme that trains organisations in Leadership for years, we could have done without the condescending tone. But let us leave acidity aside and try to be objective. Leadership in this case is not "disappointing". It is involved in financial scandals and internal dictatorial purges. Euphemisms sometimes put a pretry ribbon on ugly truths (here's some aphoristic wisdom in return). 

For the most part, you cannot choose your bosses, but you can choose your leaders (who are not necessarily one and the same person). Freemasonry has no bosses, it has leaders. I know many people in that Grand Lodge who are true Freemasons and have the utmost respect for them. Elections are coming soon and it is my hope things will change. If they do not, it is a moral imperative not to associate yourself with an organisation who has someone of this character heading it. Doing nothing is tacitly admitting you feel represented by that individual, and that you condone his use of the money you give him to unilaterally enter shady deals. 

If you have your son or daughter in a school where leadership "disappoints" because it knows nothing about Education, you would not blame it on everyone working at the school, but you would take your child elsewhere. In a Masonic Grand Lodge, where Morality is central, the same principle applies if its leader is devoid of it. And that being the case, it is far better to be sitting by ourselves at home than call such a man - and suspected criminal - your Brother and leader just because not all the apples.in the basket are rotten.


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## Glen Cook

and yet, for at least the third time, you advocate abandoning the organization, and do so repeatedly in the post, because of allegations against an individual in leadership. Indeed, this was part of your stated reasoning for not being part of legitimate Masonry. Let me suggest a rhetorical litmus test for your view: if the current GM were removed, woyld you seek to join the recognised GL?  I really am not soliciting an answer, just encouraging reflection. 

Training people in organizational leadership principles is not the same as being involved in organizations or the same as longitude of experience. Further, generalizing from training on leadership to specific recommendations on individual involvement in an organization is not necessarily an even flow.  I remember a new Mason who had been extensively involved in Scouting leadership. He felt this qualified him for Masonic leadership.  He was a failure as a Masonic leader.  He did not understand the organization. 

 Having actually been part of the removal process of a national masonic leader, knowledge of leadership principles  wasn’t the key.  Rather, knowledge of Masonic organizations, organizational change in Masonic organizations, a commitment to the organization rather than the individual, willingness to foster change, and guts were the important factors. When there was disruption in GLNF (largely because of a single individual), many GLs reacted by suspending recognition. They did not abandon (what we view as) legitimate Freemasonry. 

That is where we also differ in our views. I think one can legitimately hold membership in an organization without condoning the actions of the leadership. I am a member of a political party. I don’t condone the actions or all the positions of the current party leadership. No one has argued there is a moral imperative I leave the party. 

I realize my statement on your limited experience in any genus of Freemasonry can be taken as condescending. Making declarations of moral imperatives can come off as condescending, superior, and lecturing  as well.  Some might argue there were less than kind motives in your reporting of this disruption, as noted by the need to point out it is the GL with which the majority of us are in amity and your own views, again, as to the organization, rather than just pointing out an admittedly legitimate Masonuc news item. So, yes, let’s do  avoid the acidity—or at least acknowledge we are taking the same tone. So, yes, your comments to me do express the outrage and naïveté of the neophyte and new convert to his cause. Perhaps I am more jaundiced and cynical in my view, finding no organization or its leadership to be perfect, and that men demonstrate character flaws, perhaps even of a criminal nature. So if I am a committed member, I foster change. I don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.


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## DanielR

Glen Cook said:


> and yet, for at least the third time, you advocate abandoning the organization, and do so repeatedly in the post, because of allegations against an individual in leadership. Indeed, this was part of your stated reasoning for not being part of legitimate Masonry. Let me suggest a rhetorical litmus test for your view: if the current GM were removed, woyld you seek to join the recognised GL?  I really am not soliciting an answer, just encouraging reflection.
> 
> Training people in organizational leadership principles is not the same as being involved in organizations or the same as longitude of experience. Further, generalizing from training on leadership to specific recommendations on individual involvement in an organization is not necessarily an even flow.  I remember a new Mason who had been extensively involved in Scouting leadership. He felt this qualified him for Masonic leadership.  He was a failure as a Masonic leader.  He did not understand the organization.
> 
> Having actually been part of the removal process of a national masonic leader, knowledge of leadership principles  wasn’t the key.  Rather, knowledge of Masonic organizations, organizational change in Masonic organizations, a commitment to the organization rather than the individual, willingness to foster change, and guts were the important factors. When there was disruption in GLNF (largely because of a single individual), many GLs reacted by suspending recognition. They did not abandon (what we view as) legitimate Freemasonry.
> 
> That is where we also differ in our views. I think one can legitimately hold membership in an organization without condoning the actions of the leadership. I am a member of a political party. I don’t condone the actions or all the positions of the current party leadership. No one has argued there is a moral imperative I leave the party.
> 
> I realize my statement on your limited experience in any genus of Freemasonry can be taken as condescending. Making declarations of moral imperatives can come off as condescending, superior, and lecturing  as well.  Some might argue there were less than kind motives in your reporting of this disruption, as noted by the need to point out it is the GL with which the majority of us are in amity and your own views, again, as to the organization, rather than just pointing out an admittedly legitimate Masonuc news item. So, yes, let’s do  avoid the acidity—or at least acknowledge we are taking the same tone. So, yes, your comments to me do express the outrage and naïveté of the neophyte and new convert to his cause. Perhaps I am more jaundiced and cynical in my view, finding no organization or its leadership to be perfect, and that men demonstrate character flaws, perhaps even of a criminal nature. So if I am a committed member, I foster change. I don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.


There is no progress to be had in this discussion. You misinterpret my words and speak of things you do not know with far too much authority for us to ever reach a level plane of discussion, so for my part, it ends here. On the former count, you say I advocated leaving the organization. I said no such thing. I advocated staying and changing things, and leaving only if failure to do that meant obedience to and fellowship with a man who does not represent Masonic values. On the second count, I am a neophyte and you are not, but apologies, you do not know Portugal and what goes on in it better than I do. I would remind you that my experience with Portuguese Freemasonry and its members far predates my entering it. Plus, you know, I live here. 

Your comment on leadership has no bearing on what I said, which was a mere answer to your condescending remark, to the extent I don't even know how to answer it. It is also misguided if considered on its own but I will not lecture. So, onwards.

You did not let up on the condescending tone, since you repeatedly used the words "cause" and "mission" to describe my position on this matter, which does seem to imply an accusation of fanaticism of sorts. I won't dignify that with an answer. So thank you, this has been enlightening. Since we are not Brothers and I am an inexperienced brainwashed angry little neophyte on a mission, there doesn't seem much reason for me to stick around. Sorry for not answering your Litmus test but I don't play ball in rhetorical exercises meant to spur on my reflection. It is kind of you but my reflection was already well on its way before we met.

Nice app while it lasted. I'll leave you to your business, then. If this is the level of discussion to be found here, I'm not really interested in partaking. A final word: sorry if it seemed like I was trying to undermine your amity with the GL in question by pointing out the facts about its GM. I did mention at the beginning that who you are in amity with is utterly irrelevant to me but alas, that got lost along the way too. 

Enjoy the bath water. Baby - out. 

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## Glen Cook

I’m only one participant. Ignore me. Enjoy the other folks.


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