# NPR Radio: Tennessee Freemasons Oust Married Gay Couple



## My Freemasonry (Feb 25, 2016)

​
I had the distinct honor to speak at the Conference of Grand Masters of North America yesterday in Madison, Wisconsin. It was a great opportunity to connect with so many grand line officers and friends old and new from around the country and the world, and especially to reconnect with those I have met over the years when visiting their own jurisdictions.

Today while changing planes, I received a Google alert in my email box pointing me to a story that appeared this morning on the website of the local Memphis, Tennessee NPR station, WKNO about the recent expulsion of two gay Brethren in that town from the fraternity. (For the earlier background on the story, see the link here.) I am quoted briefly in the story, and I agreed to speak with them last week before I left for Madison.

Read or listen to it here.: WKNO: "Tennessee Freemasons Oust Married Gay Couple, Threaten Supporters with Suspension"

I spoke to the assembled Grand Masters during their business session, and in my remarks, I said the following:

_Just 10 years ago, no one would have even contemplated the Masonic complications of gay marriage, and suddenly, seemingly overnight, it’s the law of the land, and new, young Masons are shocked when they discover a few jurisdictions have rules discriminating against gay members. Our entire society has changed just that fast, in the blink of an eye, and we have to deal with it. Because if we are counting on these new men to join, become active, and save our fraternity from oblivion, we can’t just dismiss the issues THEY find to be vitally important as being trivial, or even worse, none of their business.  We tell them, often right there on our webpages,  that we teach tolerance. We can’t go back on that promise. _ 
_We can no longer hide episodes we may find embarrassing anymore. No matter how tempting it might be, we cannot stop online discussions of our actions. Social media is too important in everyone’s life now. If something happens in just one isolated lodge or grand lodge, or even in a clandestine lodge, such as the recent arrest of several men masquerading as a Masonic police force in California, literally the rest of the world sees the story online or even on their phones the very next day, and brands the entire fraternity with it. That’s the dark side of the age in which we live now._​
I have already said my peace on this story in previous entries. It is not my intention to question the authority of any sovereign Masonic jurisdiction to make rules that suit their members. But several Grand Masters of American grand lodges spoke with me privately at the Conference and told me that already, because of the actions of the Grand Lodges of Tennessee and Georgia, their own members have been publicly protested against, and even dis-invited from public events like cornerstone ceremonies. And I can tell all of you, there are mutterings among some grand lodge bodies about seriously considering recognition issues.  You can tell us Yankees - as several emails have referred to me tonight - to butt out of your state's business. But this issue goes beyond your own borders, and just like the racial issues in Georgia that arose several years ago hitting the New York Times, it will only get bigger. 

That affects all of us.

I strongly urge the Brethren in Tennessee and Georgia to consider carefully how you proceed from here. What happens in Memphis or Atlanta puts all Freemasons, worldwide, in the spotlight.   Fortunately, Brethren in Kentucky back in 2010 voted against proposed legislation in their Grand Lodge that would have banned gay members.  At least in Tennessee next month, Masons have the opportunity to remove the existing discriminatory wording from their code. Unfortunately, the situation in Georgia can't be righted so quickly.

Petitioners who are investigated, voted on, initiated, passed, and raised in a local lodge are just and upright Masons. No one stops you from refusing to sit in your lodge with a visitor you find objectionable, if that is your choice. But I continue to say that the sexual orientation of a Brother is none of our business, and I guarantee you have long been sitting in lodge next to gay Masons, probably since the night of your initiation. 

Each individual Mason has his own, private religious beliefs, and we all vary from one another in some way or interpretation - some more than others. That's why the very design of our fraternity is  such a perfect blueprint for bringing together men in a world full of different faiths and political beliefs. But we cross a very dangerous line when we actually write our personal religious and political views into our Grand Lodge regulation books.  

I simply caution that the rest of the Masonic world is carefully watching what you do with deep concern.

Continue reading...


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## tldubb (Feb 25, 2016)

I agree, it is nobody's business who you share your bed with or who you love...smdh!


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## Glen Cook (Feb 25, 2016)

tldubb said:


> I agree, it is nobody's business who you share your bed with or who you love...smdh!


Except that, many jurisdictions limit carnal intercourse with varying members of a Master Masons family (the other degrees apparently not being accorded this kindness).  I've seen Freemasons in two different jurisdictions disciplined for adultery with a Master Mason's wife.


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## Bloke (Feb 25, 2016)

My Freemasonry said:


> .....I spoke to the assembled Grand Masters during their business session, and in my remarks, I said the following:
> 
> _Just 10 years ago, no one would have even contemplated the Masonic complications of gay marriage, and suddenly, seemingly overnight, it’s the law of the land, and new, young Masons are shocked when they discover* a few jurisdictions have rules discriminating against gay member*s. Our entire society has changed just that fast, in the blink of an eye, and we have to deal with it. Because if we are counting on these new men to join, become active, and save our fraternity from oblivion, we can’t just dismiss the issues THEY find to be vitally important as being trivial, or even worse, none of their business.  We tell them, often right there on our webpages,  that we teach tolerance. We can’t go back on that promise.
> We can no longer hide episodes we may find embarrassing anymore. No matter how tempting it might be, we cannot stop online discussions of our actions. Social media is too important in everyone’s life now. If something happens in just one isolated lodge or grand lodge, or even in a clandestine lodge, such as the recent arrest of several men masquerading as a Masonic police force in California, literally the rest of the world sees the story online or even on their phones the very next day, and brands the entire fraternity with it. That’s the dark side of the age in which we live now._​



Well, this "leader in the craft" hopes NO jurisdictions have rules discriminating against guy members.. I've already said my piece on this here . If anyone has a FB page or contacts for the Bros concerned, I'd love their contacts.


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## Bloke (Feb 25, 2016)

Discussion on this is also here


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## tldubb (Feb 27, 2016)

Yes, most even mine. But the question is not family members of brethren, but relationships between people of the same sex. In particular a married gay couple. Which is none of anybody's business who another persons sleeps with...mvho


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## Glen Cook (Feb 27, 2016)

tldubb said:


> Yes, most even mine. But the question is not family members of brethren, but relationships between people of the same sex. In particular a married gay couple. Which is none of anybody's business who another persons sleeps with...mvho


But if it is nobody's business who one sleeps with, then it is nobody's business if it is a brother's family.  Either we're snooping, or we're not.


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## Manderthal (Feb 28, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> But if it is nobody's business who one sleeps with, then it is nobody's business if it is a brother's family.  Either we're snooping, or we're not.



I don't think it's about snooping at all. It's about offending a Brother.
Having sex with a Brother's family member is off limits. Period.
This issue is about a Brother having gay sex with a (presumed) stranger.
Personally I don't care... unless it's with another Brother's family member.  That makes it a violation.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 28, 2016)

Manderthal said:


> I don't think it's about snooping at all. It's about offending a Brother.
> Having sex with a Brother's family member is off limits. Period.
> This is about a Brother having gay sex with a (presumed) stranger.
> Personally I don't care... unless it's with another Brother's family member.  That makes it a violation.


So, we intrude into the bedroom if it is a family member only?  That's still intrusion. The argument was that we don't belong in bedrooms and clearly we think we do belong.

The laws of these GLs as I understand them are not based upon it being a stranger. To the contrary. The trial ruling on TN used the marital status as evidence of a violation. 

A hypothetical: what do we do about carnal intercourse with a Master Mason's husband by another Mason?  The obs with which I am familiar reference a wife, not a spouse. We now allow same sex adultery but not hetero adultery?  That is not far fetched. We had married  Brothers in my jurisdiction (one resigned to join a clandestine lodge when he was not elected to the east). I had to deal with another situation in which a brother was jilted by another brother, and the jiltee actually had  to be barred  from the lodge due to his jealous behavior.


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## Manderthal (Feb 28, 2016)

"... or any member of his home." 
Again, try to get past intrusion and into the mindset of offense. We don't offend a Brother by having relations with his family members. That makes certain people off limits. One of the things a brother should always trust is that his family is safe from violation with another brother.
I'd like to date your wife/daughter  but I won't because she's your family. If a man doesn't have the respect to know that on his own at least his obligation teaches him that.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 28, 2016)

Manderthal said:


> "... or any member of his home."
> Again, try to get past intrusion and into the mindset of offense. We don't offend a Brother by having relations with his family members. That makes certain people off limits. One of the things a brother should always trust is that his family is safe from violation with another brother.
> I'd like to date your wife/daughter  but I won't because she's your family. If a man doesn't have the respect to know that on his own at least his obligation teaches him that.


But the argument was that we don't intrude into the bedroom. Full stop. Clearly we do. I'm not saying the limitation isn't justified. That wasn't the argument.

Actually, I'm unaware of any jurisdiction which would forbid a Master Mason dating my daughter.


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## Ripcord22A (Feb 28, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Actually, I'm unaware of any jurisdiction which would forbid a Master Mason dating my daughter.



Yeah exactly.  People are looking at this wrong.  The OB is talking about unwanted sex, except the wife.  The gay thing is about morals.  Do i care if someone is gay?....No, i have a few gay friends.  If i joined a lodge amd there was a gay brother Id have to be ok with it.  However our teachings talk of being an upright man and mason to S***** our P*******.  To me being gay is immorral....obviously the TN GL also felt that way.  Do i think it warrents expulsion?  Not my call.


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## Manderthal (Feb 28, 2016)

That surprises me because clearly my oath prevents it "illegally",  which I assume means without your permission.
I'm reluctant to say more since this is not tyled.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 28, 2016)

Manderthal said:


> That surprises me because clearly my oath prevents it "illegally",  which I assume means without your permission.
> I'm reluctant to say more since this is not tyled.


In UT it is "illicit" carnal intercourse with certain named family members. 
In many English rituals we "respect the honour (sometimes rendered chastity)" of certain named members.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 28, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Yeah exactly.  People are looking at this wrong.  The OB is talking about unwanted sex, except the wife.  The gay thing is about morals.  Do i care if someone is gay?....No, i have a few gay friends.  If i joined a lodge amd there was a gay brother Id have to be ok with it.  However our teachings talk of being an upright man and mason to S***** our P*******.  To me being gay is immorral....obviously the TN GL also felt that way.  Do i think it warrents expulsion?  Not my call.


Depends on the jurisdiction. Utah bars illicit carnal intercourse, which includes adultery. We have a PGM who is suspended for this reason. There is a prominent Scottish Mason suspended for this reason.


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## tldubb (Feb 28, 2016)

How does the O&Ob of MM have to do with two men sleeping in the same bed. I will never violate the chastity of a brothers female family  members or male. Especially Males considering I'm a raging lesbian..lol

So, I don't care who anyone shares there bed with(as long as it does not violate the O&Ob I took as a MM). Keep out women beaters and child porn/abusers!...So, a man marries another man, what does that have to do with me? Only God can judge!

So please stop trying to compare what the O&Ob of a MM with two men having sex, sleeping in the same bed..smdh


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Feb 28, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> To me being gay is immoral.


Why do you feel that it is immoral?  Doesn't the idea that being gay is immoral come from religion?  Is it proper to use the rules of your specific religion to govern Freemasonry?


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## Brother JC (Feb 28, 2016)

The morality of gay marriage is subjective, based on personal views and ones own brand of belief-system. Making it the business of the lodge (or Grand Lodge) is akin to saying only married men can be Masons, or only bachelors can be Masons, or only men married to women from Masonic families can be Masons...
My Ob specifically stated "illicit carnal intercourse," and even if it had included brother, son, and father, consensual sex with anyone in said family would not be "illicit" in any of my jurisdictions.*
*Barring legalities such as age or marital status (which could still happened in a mutually polyamorous relationship).


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## The Undertaker (Feb 29, 2016)

Brother JC said:


> The morality of gay marriage is subjective, based on personal views and ones own brand of belief-system. Making it the business of the lodge (or Grand Lodge) is akin to saying only married men can be Masons, or only bachelors can be Masons, or only men married to women from Masonic families can be Masons...
> My Ob specifically stated "illicit carnal intercourse," and even if it had included brother, son, and father, consensual sex with anyone in said family would not be "illicit" in any of my jurisdictions.*
> *Barring legalities such as age or marital status (which could still happened in a mutually polyamorous relationship).


Brother JC makes the subject very clear, succint. Pointwithinacircle2 hits the mark as well, as does Bro. TL Wilson. We either LEAD or we FOLLOW; I think Freemasonry is, by far, stronger than a fracture over this matter. When in tyled lodges, we are equal, are we not?


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## Ripcord22A (Mar 1, 2016)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Why do you feel that it is immoral?  Doesn't the idea that being gay is immoral come from religion?  Is it proper to use the rules of your specific religion to govern Freemasonry?


 Exactly why i said to me being gay is immoral.that is my belief.  as BRO TLDUBB states the obligation has nothing to do with this.  its about a moral standpoint.  Would i vote to expel a gay brother strictly based on him being gay,,,,absolutley not.  However I dont think you can be an upright man and mason if you are gay.  Being gay doesnt make you a bad person.  The rules of the GL say you cant be gay....end of story


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## Bloke (Mar 1, 2016)

This is a grand example of how jdmadsen has a different belief, yet Freemasonry unites diverse people. Once this difference might have been Loyalist vrs Republican, Catholic against Protestant, Trade Unionist against Capitalist, Black vrs White, Muslim vrs Christian, Socialist vrs Tory, English vrs French - all of which should be meaningless once we step into lodge as brothers.... and hopefully outside as well, or at least building understanding and tolerance between groups with opposed views.

One of the reasons I love the Craft. One of the reasons not talking religion or politics was a great early rule which has served us and mankind well. Sometimes, you need to just leave things alone..


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## Ripcord22A (Mar 1, 2016)

@Bloke you are correct.  Am i gonna not sit in lodge cause there is a Gay man as a member....nope Ill sit right next to him shake his hand and call him brother.  My personal beliefe has nothing to do with who ill sit in lodge with.  IF the GL says its ok then the GL says it ok, if they forbid it they forbid it.  in my OB i swore to keep the S****** of a bro as my own with 2 exceptions.  being gay was not one of them.  So if the GL says being gay is a nogo and i know that a bro is gay, it is my obligation to keep that a secret.


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