# Prince Hall and Mainstream Freemasonry



## Blake Bowden

Multiple choice. Select which ones you support. All results remain anonymous.


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## Traveling Man

Blake Bowden said:


> Multiple choice. Select which ones you support. All results remain anonymous.


 
Darn it I wish I knew that before voting!


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## Txmason

How do you vote?


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## Txmason

Got it!


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## Blake Bowden

Just select which one(s) you support. It's not scientific, but simply a way to get a general feel of how far Masons (both sides) are willing to agree upon.


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## NickGarner

Just my thoughts,

      Mutual recognition, as it stands now is a sham. I would venture to sat that the majority of the Mainstream brethren (at least in my area) have no idea the compact was signed or what it means. When I bring up the subject of inter-visitation or recognition I still hear the same responses, "Prince Hall Lodges are clandestine", "There are 7, 8, 20 (whatever number he heard) Prince Hall Grand Lodges. We can't recognize any of them"...blah..blah...and of course my favorite "If a Prince Hall Mason ever sits in this lodge I QUIT".
    My opinion is this we should have full recognition, what I mean by this is, Prince Hall Grand Lodge (and by extension any other Prince Hall Grand Lodges recognized by Texas Prince Hall Grand Lodge or by UGLE if that makes anyone feel any better) is treated like any other Grand Lodge recognized by GLoT. People can visit those lodges and join those lodges provided the other Grand Lodge allows plural memebership. Memebers of Texas Prince Hall Grand Lodge as well as other Prince Hall Grand Lodge members as defined above would be treated just like members of any other Grand Lodge. All recognition questions would be handled just as they are currently, examining the brothers dues card, looking up his lodge in the little book, due examination, lawful information, etc.
   I really think this whole issue will be much less painful than people think. The intial adjustment period will be a little tense but things will settle down. Some people on either side will be disgruntled and some will possibly quit, you just can't make some folks happy. Some people will never adjust and I feel sorry for them. People will continue to go where they are comfortable and join lodges they like.
  I for one am tired of trying to talk to my friends who are Prince Hall Masons and having to either dance around masonic topics or simply not discuss our craft in detail due to our respective rules. I look forward to being able to sit in lodge together, comparing notes, and enjoying the respective differences in our lodge systems. I personnaly think it is deplorable that a Brother in the military is deployed for year in a war zone and cannot visit a military lodge set up there because of antiquated attitudes and rules on the part of his Grand Lodge. 
  To sum everything up we should recognize our counterpart Prince Hall Grand Lodge and treart them as we would any other recognized Grand Lodge.


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## Blake Bowden

We've been discussing the same thing since 2008. We can beat around the bush, blame politics, racism or *insert* whatever. Guess what I find absolutely ridiculous? Prince Hall has the same roots as the Grand Lodge of Texas, we recognize them as REGULAR (NOT CLANDESTINE) Masons, yet we cannot Meet Upon the Level? Open the doors, let the racists on both sides scatter like rats, which they will. 

Inter-visitation isn't new; it's the Southern States that are slow in recognizing our Prince Hall Brethren. That being said, Texas is, compared to many Southern Jurisdictions, progressive. Let's set an example. Want to put pressure on this issue? Email the following:

Most Worshipful Grand Lodge of Texas:

gs@grandlodgeoftexas.org

and

Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas:

pha@flash.net


All I ask is that you remain respectful voicing your opinion.


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## Cigarzan

I'm for being able to visit MWPHGLOT lodges and vicey-versy for them and for being able to hold Masonic communications with a Brother from a MWPHGLOT lodge.  I'm not sure, though, how it will work out in the "real world".  Just being _allowed_ to do those things will be enough for now.  Time, patience and perseverance will over come all of the obstacles.  I hope.


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## Brent Heilman

I think as long as guidelines are in place and understood there won't be any problems. I have never heard of many here in Oklahoma. The guidelines we have are clear so it really would be hard to mess it up.


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## BryanMaloney

A state line is really just a polite fiction, and this polite fiction is all that separates the various "mainstream" Grand Lodges in the USA. There is no panty-twisting over "How on EARTH can we handle this?" PHA of TX and GLoTX are separated by two vivid, living streams of history and tradition. Thus, if it is possible to figure out how GLoTX and GLoLA can interact, have mutual visitation, etc., it is no more difficult for sensible, sane individuals to figure out GLoTX and PHA of TX relationships.


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## celery47

If I were traveling upon a hiway and happened to see an individual who most likely belonged to PHM giving the GHSOD what would I or any other GLoTex do?   Duh, we would stop and render aid to a brother.  It would be as if it were genetically imprinted into our DNA; we would recognize the cry and respond.   

If we recognize a PHM in this respect how can we be so blind over jurisdiction objections?   We should at least in brotherly love be able to visit each others lodges.


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## Frater Cliff Porter

I didn't know PHA wasn't "mainstream" LOL.

In Colorado we have full recognition of one another, sit in lodge, we have even done courtesy work...to include YR and SR bodies .


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## Blake Bowden

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> I didn't know PHA wasn't "mainstream" LOL.
> 
> In Colorado we have full recognition of one another, sit in lodge, we have even done courtesy work...to include YR and SR bodies .



I'm sure you're fully aware of the situation in Texas. Hopefully sooner than later...


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## Michael Hatley

I really wish there were no division at all.  It is one of the reasons I sat on my petition for so long before joining - I was introduced to masonry by an Australian and it just isn't in this situation there.  

At many times in my life stretching back to my childhood my best friend in the world has been black, and we're still close.  I was in the service, the infantry - and the men who I looked up to and took care of me were black.  I served in a buffalo soldier unit, 9th Cavalry, 3rd Brigade, 1st Cavalry Division - which was an historically all black unit.  

I could ramble on, but really, I just find it to be a damned shame that we're divided. 

I understand politics, protecting institutional autonomy and all of that.  I'm a realist.  

But visitation.  Yesterday, in my opinion.  Then lets take it from there.

Brass tacks is that a Brother is a Brother, to me.  Thats the simple truth of it that cuts through the politics.  My view.


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## scialytic

Would somebody be so kind as to PM me with a copy of the 2007 Mutual Recognition Compact? Though I am a lowly EA (for now), I plan to educate several of my like-minded Brothers that didn't know about it. Once I am Raised, I plan  to research and present my findings to my Home Lodge. I am not trying to persuade, but shed Light on this subject as it is the greatest disinfectant.

If the compact can't be emailed, let me know where I can find it. I'm willing to travel to GL if needed...


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## mrmarcust

In regards to this I think what is a great solution is that members of both jurisdictions work together and start with public and open events where we can fellowship together in a none masonic setting. I'd be interested if anyone would be interested in putting in thus work. This would help combat potential, preconceived problems (or to prove that that problem doesn't exist).


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## BryanMaloney

Here is a link to a thread that links to the compact: http://www.masonsoftexas.com/showth...-MWPHGLofTX&highlight=prince+hall+compact+pdf


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## BryanMaloney

This problem has nothing at all to do with politics or institutional autonomy. It has everything to do with the fact that Texas still has people like my mother-in-law, who is very careful about what "kind" of people she is willing to sit next to at church.


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## mrmarcust

As an active black member in the GLoTX, I think it's less of a problem than people may think. But unless people work together, it'll never change because the only ones voicing themselves are those that are against it. 

I've started a Facebook group and am working with individuals to work on this situation. If it's something you're interested in them get proactive vs just staying why it won't happen.

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## Brent Heilman

What's the Facebook page? It will take a collective effort on all parts to change the norm. Lord willing it will happen soon though.


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## ess1113

I think whatever we as a Grand Lodge decide to do, we should constantly work in unison with the Prince Hall Grand Lodge.  It always sounds unilateral on this board but I dont hear alot in any forum about Prince Hall wanting intervisitation.  Are we forcing the issue?  

I am a plural member in another Grand Lodge and they debated the issue into the ground and then proposed to PHA intervisitation, and PHA politely declined.  They are as equally proud, and protective of their heritage and traditions as we are of ours. Rightfully so.  

We have alot of options open to us as a Grand Lodge.  Change, modify, adapt, or accept.  Allowing the status quo is an option also and we can just consider that.  We can have mutual recognition without there being a lack of respect. 

Personally, if I am driving and see the sign of distress, I would rush to the relief of the brother without checking an ID card or considering skin color.  Thats just the way I apply that aspect of my obligation.  I dare say that 99% of the membership of this Grand Lodge would do the same.  I hope the same applied to PHA.  I have served with PHA masons in the Army for years and they are exactly like me.  Dedicated, committed, concerned, and loyal to the craft.  Just because I dont sit in lodge with them and they dont sit in lodge with me doesnt detract from our perspective devotion to our grand lodges.  

Lets change if we need to change but lets always pray and be open with all the options.


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## Blake Bowden

I'd like to see the PHA GL of Texas vote to recognize members of the GL of Texas and put the ball in "our" court, it has been done. It would make pace makers go off and people take notice!


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## ess1113

Blake Bowden said:


> I'd like to see the PHA GL of Texas vote to recognize members of the GL of Texas and put the ball in "our" court, it has been done. It would make pace makers go off and people take notice!



Best way to gain legitimacy in the argument.  Thank you


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## scialytic

ess1113 said:


> I think whatever we as a Grand Lodge decide to do, we should constantly work in unison with the Prince Hall Grand Lodge.  It always sounds unilateral on this board but I dont hear alot in any forum about Prince Hall wanting intervisitation.  Are we forcing the issue?
> 
> I am a plural member in another Grand Lodge and they debated the issue into the ground and then proposed to PHA intervisitation, and PHA politely declined.  They are as equally proud, and protective of their heritage and traditions as we are of ours. Rightfully so.
> 
> We have alot of options open to us as a Grand Lodge.  Change, modify, adapt, or accept.  Allowing the status quo is an option also and we can just consider that.  We can have mutual recognition without there being a lack of respect.
> 
> Personally, if I am driving and see the sign of distress, I would rush to the relief of the brother without checking an ID card or considering skin color.  Thats just the way I apply that aspect of my obligation.  I dare say that 99% of the membership of this Grand Lodge would do the same.  I hope the same applied to PHA.  I have served with PHA masons in the Army for years and they are exactly like me.  Dedicated, committed, concerned, and loyal to the craft.  Just because I dont sit in lodge with them and they dont sit in lodge with me doesnt detract from our perspective devotion to our grand lodges.
> 
> Lets change if we need to change but lets always pray and be open with all the options.



You know...I never thought about that. That is a profound thought/observation...


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## CajunTinMan

Not me Brothers, you’ll never catch me sitting in lodge with................…… a like minded person with similar interest, and a love for the craft. Wait a minute, why ain’t I having Brotherly communication with this person? Oh yeah, that’s right, the irregular regular thing and the two Grand lodges thing too. Humm? Aren’t they both recognized by the UGLE? That would make both Lodges regular right? And as far as two Grand Lodges, I know that if “mainstream” Masonry was told that we could no longer practice we would find a way to survive too. Isn’t that what Prince Hall did? We are all free born men who share a love for what we do and to me a Brother is a Brother is a Brother. When I see a PHA I see a Mason and look forward to the day when we can share more then just respect and Brotherly love with one another. I always respect the edicts of my Grand Lodge and I know that this is not just a one way situation. But if I fail to voice my opinion then only the opposition voices theirs. And nothing changes.


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## AJLamorand

OK so I have been an EA for only a short time and I do not understand the problem with the Prince Hall Masons entering AF AM lodge.  If the Bible is suppose to be the guide to our faith and practice and we are suppose to square our actions by the square of virtue, what is the problem? Maybe it is not my place to ask such questions as I am so new to Masonry. If so my apologies if I have committed a grievous error.


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## CajunTinMan

It's a matter of pride and jurisdiction.


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## BryanMaloney

AJLamorand said:


> OK so I have been an EA for only a short time and I do not understand the problem with the Prince Hall Masons entering AF AM lodge.  If the Bible is suppose to be the guide to our faith and practice and we are suppose to square our actions by the square of virtue, what is the problem?



People still live who remember when Jim Crow was law of the land.


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## Brother Atkins

How do I find a Brother in Houston online?


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## Bill Lins

Brother Atkins said:


> How do I find a Brother in Houston online?



If you know his full name you might try Googling it.


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## bupton52

Brother Atkins said:


> How do I find a Brother in Houston online?



I'm in Houston. How can I help you?


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## jwhoff

I was just looking at the vote on this poll.

Were it a true picture of masons viewpoints, this issue could have been solved sometime back.  Unfortunately, I think may of the nay-sayers aren't represented.  It's going to be a long, tough road to hoe.  But one worth cultivating.


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## BryanMaloney

Old men with old attitudes aren't as prone to using web-based bulletin boards. But they do predominate within Texas masonry.


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## Michael Neumann

The petitions have been posted both on this site in the building fraternal relations section and on a FB page dedicated to the cause - https://www.facebook.com/MasonicAmity . I am building a website to take the heat off of this forum if we stir the wrong kind of attention but in the mean time Masons of Texas and the page Masonic Amity are providing support. I am going to launch an ad campaign on FB and would "like" your assitance in the form of "shares" and emailing the forms/links to our brethren. I am tracking number of form submissions so I can provide weekly feedback to anyone interested.


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## mrmarcust

I just read the poll for the first time. Couldn't see it on tap a talk. Either way, possibly I never see the last option of being a member of both. PH can't do that within their item jurisdiction now as I understand it. Yes no plural our duel memberships.

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## Vitriol Knight

Opposition comes from both sides to the issue; the majority of PHM brothers want the separation. (that's conjecture on my part) 
I believe that we should look at ourselves and promote the true meaning of masonry within our own lodges before worrying about these things. 
Personally I think PHM is going strong and should be promulgated to the greatest extent. I'm not sure why we would have a need to make an issue on the subject but some of the best knowledge I have obtained on my journey has been from PHM sites. May e this is due to a more serious approach from the average PHM mason versus the average blue lodge mason.
Regardless, a brother is a brother, if Brother Rudyard Kipling has no problem sitting in lodge with a Moslem, a Hindoo, and a Jew; who am I to say nay. I'm for open visitation and promoting PHM most especially in urban communities but find it equally important that PHM lodges remain distinct with the traditions that they have. I doubt that a PHM lodge would want to go under a regular grand lodge anyways. 


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## Vitriol Knight

Back in the 1700's Prince Hall pettitioned for a charter from the Grand Lodge Of England and recieved no reply. ( given the mail system and the political situation not a surprise) From what I know the Grand Lodge Of Pennsylvania and the Grand Lodge of Massachussets both requested the (at the time British military lodge from an Irish Regiment essentially abandoned at the retreat from Boston) be recognized and chartered under their authority; Prince Hall declined. PHM has always declined, they have a proud history and probably want to keep it. No reason to fix things that are not broken. Accept them in your hearts as brothers if you like and that is all that really counts, no dues card can make or change that.




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## Michael Neumann

Vitriol Knight said:


> ...; the majority of PHM brothers want the separation. (that's conjecture on my part) ....I'm for open visitation and promoting PHM most especially in urban communities but find it equally important that PHM lodges remain distinct with the traditions that they have. I doubt that a PHM lodge would want to go under a regular grand lodge anyways.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Premium App



Courtesy of Google

Vit-ri-ol - Noun




Sulfuric acid.
Cruel and bitter criticism.



Curious name but criticism is welcome provided it is constructive. It is my personal belief that there would be much lost if we combined Mainstream and PHA but there would be much gained through visitation.


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## Vitriol Knight

No critic here; I understand what you want to do and only hope the intent is benign. Let us reflect upon ourselves, deep within the earth we will find the secret stone. Look past the outer veil Michael and you will find the true meaning of Vitriol which has no definition on Google.
This cannot be explained to anybody with words but it can be shown with symbols.



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## dfreybur

Michael Neumann said:


> It is my personal belief that there would be much lost if we combined Mainstream and PHA but there would be much gained through visitation.



The Antient and Modern GLs united in 1813.  Few think much was lost when they united.  Not that we should unite just because a pair of GLs have done so in the past, just that we have a good model for how to go about it should there be a mutual decision to unite.  I don't think either GL will offer unification to the other and I don't think either GL would accept unification if offered.

There is something to be lost from not uniting, though.  The American Principle of Exclusive Jurisdiction gets weaker with every recognition that is not a unification.  That means any ability to object to sponsoring lodges in occupied territory gets weaker.  Let's say Alabama starts chartering lodges in Alaska - The case to object is pretty weak when there are already 2+ other GLs in operation in that region.


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## Squire Bentley

As a Prince Hall Mason I laud your efforts in this endeavor. Knowing Grand Master Curtis as I do and the other Prince Hall Texas Grand officers, negotiation, according to Masonic protocol, will be done in private between the two Grand Masters. Such is the way affairs are conducted between the President of the United States and foreign nations. I would not interpret, however, the non replies from the Grand Masters as a disagreement with your cause. Such might be the case but it also might not.

I think, for me anyway, the long term goal is to turn Freemasonry from a top down society back to a bottom up society. You are certainly paving the way.

How about we give this effort a little more publicity with an article about what you are doing on "The Beehive" at Freemason Information~Masonic Traveler and also likewise on Phoenixmasonry? I am open to writing such an article if you are game.

Please feel free to correspond with me at Phoenixmasonrydirector@gmail.com

Frederic L. Milliken
 MWPHGLTX


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## Bill Lins

Squire Bentley said:


> I think, for me anyway, the long term goal is to turn Freemasonry from a top down society back to a bottom up society.



Amen!


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## baruchhc

So mote it be!

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## dfreybur

I think the reason dual membership has not been considered is MWPHGLofTX is a single affiliation jurisdiction.  They expect every petition for affiliation to have an attached demit from your previous lodge.  Being a PM and life member of a couple of lodges I don't ever intend to demit from either of them.  Being an honorary member of a lodge I'm not even aware of a formal process to withdraw from that lodge.

I recently learned that the MWPHGLofTX supports what's called "associate membership".  Get the visitation thing resolved and I'd want to take endowed membership in one or more GLofTX lodges and associate membership in a MWPHGLofTX lodge.


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## Nat Geo 357

In NYC The grand lodge offers dual membership but the PHA will not allow their members to join. They make them demint which is a word not used by other bodies. I have always asked why would a Master Mason have to demint when dual membership is offered. I am of the opinion that the word demint is an enigma in the Masonic dictionary. We should never use this word. Dual membership is a great option. 


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## scialytic

I believe the word that you are looking for is "demit" which means that you have "demitted" from that body, as opposed to "admit" or "omit." The "de" means to withdraw or undo, if I'm not mistaken. So in that case, you would no longer be a member of the Grand Lodge of New York and solely a member of the Prince Hall Grand Lodge in New York (I'm assuming it is F.&A.M. as PHA is only of that lineage). So really, your options are limited. It's one or the other.


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## dfreybur

Nat Geo 357 said:


> In NYC The grand lodge offers dual membership but the PHA will not allow their members to join. They make them demint which is a word not used by other bodies. I have always asked why would a Master Mason have to demint when dual membership is offered.



Some PHA jurisdictions have a single affiliation rule - They only allow a brother to be a member of exactly one craft lodge.  In Texas I have learned that I should be able to ask for "associate membership" to get around this issue.  Sounds to me like a technicality to get around their single affiliation rule.

I'm a California Mason.  California has full mutual recognition with a long list of PHA jurisdictions and has requested mutual recognition with another long list of PHA jurisdictions that have not responded yet (but not Delaware or Rhode Island, I'm asking around on how to get those on the agenda this year or next).  The California agreement says no dual affiliations.  It was requested by MYPHAGLofCA because they are a single affiliation state.  I remember that as recognition happened in California when I was in the line not yet a warden.  So in my case I can't ask for "associate membership" in Texas without demitting from my California lodge and it's because of California rules.  My California lodge is my mother lodge.  I'm a PM and life (endowed) member there.  I have no plans to ever demit from them.

Do I wish that all jurisdictions allow dual affiliation?  Yes.  Do I have influence in those jurisdictions?  No.  I could affiliate with one of their lodges, go through the line, and start attending their GL every year voting when I can depending on their voting rules.  But to do that I'd need to demit from my mother not.  Not worth it for me to do that.


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## Nat Geo 357

I agree big time with the last two comments. The word demit is one I will not recognize at all. I also hope one day the rule of single affiliation goes away. 


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## kemetictraveler

As a member of the PHAm I agree that dual membership be an in our grand body. One day dual membership will be an option, if brothers will stand up in numbers

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## Bro. David F. Hill

The PHGL of TX has Associate Membership.  You can be a member of one lodge and a Associate member of another.


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## Rick Clifton

Just a question.

To get a TRUE Picture wouldn't you have offer as a choice: NONE?



Questions asked and answers returned, as at the door.


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## duncan1575

Division is not a good thing.

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## coolron500

Prince hall is good for brother history

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## dfreybur

duncan1575 said:


> Division is not a good thing.



Yet there is strength in diversity.  Few are discussing unification.  I suggest that there is a distinction that's missing.  Sovereignty is a good thing.  There's a spectrum of meaning and I'm not sure where it gores from good to bad.  Calling each other clandestine for not understanding regularity issues versus recognition issues - bad.  Retaining heritage that's centuries old - good.


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## Squire Bentley

Since when has PHA called a Mainstream Grand Lodge clandestine?

Frederic L. Milliken
MWPHGLTX


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## river rat

I have always had a problem with the Prince Hall part of Masonry. I have always thought we were "One Big Lodge. " Someone please straighten me out? 

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## Shahkem

river rat said:


> I have always had a problem with the Prince Hall part of Masonry. I have always thought we were "One Big Lodge. " Someone please straighten me out?
> 
> Freemason Connect HD



I sincerely hope that my reply doesn't come off as sarcastic, because that is not my intention. The reason there is a "Prince Hall part of Masonry" is because of the racist white men who didn't and still don't possess the will to adhere to the principles of our obligations as it pertains to universal brotherhood. If it were not for the blatant prejudice practiced by so called mainstream masons, there would not have been a reason for Prince Hall to declare his lodge as independent, even after had received a charter from the Grand Lodge of England. And due to the racial climate of 18th and 19th century, I can somewhat understand white masons not wanting to admit black men into what they claimed to be their Fraternity. But here we are in the 21st century and although its much better, the racial problem is far from solved. If there was no Prince Hall Freemasonry, easily 75% of Blacks would be denied, just because we're black. Im not sure if this staighten you out or not, but i hope it helps you better understand the necessity of Prince Hall Masonry for the African American.


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## bupton52

Shahkem said:


> I sincerely hope that my reply doesn't come off as sarcastic, because that is not my intention. The reason there is a "Prince Hall part of Masonry" is because of the racist white men who didn't and still don't possess the will to adhere to the principles of our obligations as it pertains to universal brotherhood. If it were not for the blatant prejudice practiced by so called mainstream masons, there would not have been a reason for Prince Hall to declare his lodge as independent, even after had received a charter from the Grand Lodge of England. And due to the racial climate of 18th and 19th century, I can somewhat understand white masons not wanting to admit black men into what they claimed to be their Fraternity. But here we are in the 21st century and although its much better, the racial problem is far from solved. If there was no Prince Hall Freemasonry, easily 75% of Blacks would be denied, just because we're black. Im not sure if this staighten you out or not, but i hope it helps you better understand the necessity of Prince Hall Masonry for the African American.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect HD



There are just as many African American bigots in our fraternity. The blame has to be shared. It is important to know that "our" hands are not squeaky clean. Once that is realized, some of the anger at the situation in the South can be appropriately placed. 


S&F
Bro. Byron Upton


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## Shahkem

bupton52 said:


> There are just as many African American bigots in our fraternity. The blame has to be shared. It is important to know that "our" hands are not squeaky clean. Once that is realized, some of the anger at the situation in the South can be appropriately placed.
> 
> 
> S&F
> Bro. Byron Upton



I'm really not sure how your statement has as anything to do with the question that was posed and the answer I gave. Exactly how are "we" to blame for the racial sentiments that would have deprived us from practicing Freemasonry? This particular topic has nothing to do with any of us being bigots. That's a different topic all together. This topic pertains to the reason Prince Freemasonry was and is still needed. The individual somewhat made a case against PH and I simply made a case for it. So Im a little confused as about your post. 


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## gregw

As a white man in PH I get more slack from white members in other lodges, it makes me more proud to be a part of PH than in a prominently white lodge, the way they give me a hard time, I stand up for my brothers and ask them to visit our lodge. They have yet to come. White lodges seem to still have some kind of grudge against PH, like we aren't the real thing. I refuse to believe that and will proudly stay were I'm at. Until the bi
 laws bring us together and everyone accepts it. We will need PH. That day may never come. Stay strong and in due bounds my brothers.  

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## bupton52

Shahkem said:


> I'm really not sure how your statement has as anything to do with the question that was posed and the answer I gave. Exactly how are "we" to blame for the racial sentiments that would have deprived us from practicing Freemasonry? This particular topic has nothing to do with any of us being bigots. That's a different topic all together. This topic pertains to the reason Prince Freemasonry was and is still needed. The individual somewhat made a case against PH and I simply made a case for it. So Im a little confused as about your post.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect HD



The very fact that we still NEED PH Masonry is a indicator that we have a long way to go. I mentioned bigotry because it is a major player in the reason that PH masonry is needed in 2013. If we can get rid of the bigots, we just might be the universal brotherhood that our institution used to talk about. 

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## Bill Lins

bupton52 said:


> If we can get rid of the bigots, we just might be the universal brotherhood that our institution used to talk about.


So mote it be!


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## tldubb

You can't blame Prince Hall Masonry for the division between "mainstream" and Prince Hall. History is history if the tenets of masonry were followed more than 200 years ago it would be a different story.  But unfortunately that was not the case. So, we move on Prince Hall has been recognized from the inception and verified from the UGLE. The fact that the States that were under reconstruction act post civil war are the same one's holding out recognition of PHA is of no surprise.  I commend the GLOFTX,  for there forward thinking and fact they truly live by spirit of the Craft!


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## bupton52

tldubb said:


> You can't blame Prince Hall Masonry for the division between "mainstream" and Prince Hall. History is history if the tenets of masonry were followed more than 200 years ago it would be a different story.  But unfortunately that was not the case. So, we move on Prince Hall has been recognized from the inception and verified from the UGLE. The fact that the States that were under reconstruction act post civil war are the same one's holding out recognition of PHA is of no surprise.  I commend the GLOFTX,  for there forward thinking and fact they truly live by spirit of the Craft!
> 
> 
> Sent from my GT-N8013 using Freemason Connect HD mobile app



You'd be surprised brother. We all play a part. 

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## Shahkem

bupton52 said:


> The very fact that we still NEED PH Masonry is a indicator that we have a long way to go. I mentioned bigotry because it is a major player in the reason that PH masonry is needed in 2013. If we can get rid of the bigots, we just might be the universal brotherhood that our institution used to talk about.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Freemason Connect HD mobile app



Brother. Pardon me if I'm misunderstanding you, but if you would, go back to the question that started this thread. An individual was challenging the "Prince Hall part" of Freemasonry by inculcating that Prince Hall disrupts the intent of our Fraternity as it pertains to uniformity. I simply gave him the reason that Prince Hall existed. Prince Hall Masonry doesn't exist because we have bigots in PH Lodges. The fact that there are bigots in PH is accurate, but totally irrelevant to this thread. Like I said to u previously, that's a different topic. 

U stated that "the very fact that we still need PH masonry is an indicator that we have a long way to go." Exactly my point! But all though PH has long way to go, PH doesnt have long way to go as it pertains to this thread because PH masonry was birthed out of the bowels of a racist environment. And if it wasn't for PH declaring itself a GL, we as African American would have been denied the privileges of this Fraternity due to the fact that we were African American, not bigots!

Im not saying that all PH masons are perfect ashlars. It seems to me that you're so desperate to defend the very corrupt institution that created this problem that you're unwilling to see the substance if this thread. 

If I had 5 sons, but I didn't like the appearance if one of them because his complexion was to dark so I excluded him from our family activities. I even denied him housing. Well be grows up and decides to build his own house, only natural. Over time his house starts to look just as nice as mine and all of a sudden one of his brothers ask him this dumb question, " y do u have to have your own house? We are in the same family and we already have a family house, so y are u trying to compete with our house?" This is the best way I can sum this up for u. Just go back to the original question that replied to and keep the analogy in mind that I just gave u. Brother it's not Prince Hall's fault that PH exists, it's PH right!


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## Blake Bowden

Why does PH Masonry exist? Because of bigotry and racism -- plain and simple. In a perfect world, ALL Masons would follow the tenants of the Craft where we could all meet upon the level as equals.

I respect your viewpoint, but if you knew what we've tried to accomplish here in Texas, you may give us a little more credit. I've had close friends put their dues card on the line hoping the MWPHGLofTX would back them to extend visitation. Guess where that got them? Nowhere other than being shunned, masonic charges being filed and harassment by our own Grand Lodge (MWGLofTX).

I can't even get my own Grand Lodge, much less the Prince Hall Grand Lodge to respond to an email. It's all about politics. My Grand Lodge is content keeping the Prince Hall Grand Lodge at a distance and the Prince Hall Grand Lodge is fine with a business as usual mentality. I'm just waiting for a Grand Master from either side to initiate something that would fundamentally change Freemasonry.


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## Shahkem

Blake Bowden said:


> Why does PH Masonry exist? Because of bigotry and racism -- plain and simple. In a perfect world, ALL Masons would follow the tenants of the Craft where we could all meet upon the level as equals.
> 
> I respect your viewpoint, but if you knew what we've tried to accomplish here in Texas, you may give us a little more credit. I've had close friends put their dues card on the line hoping the MWPHGLofTX would back them to extend visitation. Guess where that got them? Nowhere other than being shunned, masonic charges being filed and harassment by our own Grand Lodge (MWGLofTX).
> 
> I can't even get my own Grand Lodge, much less the Prince Hall Grand Lodge to respond to an email. It's all about politics. My Grand Lodge is content keeping the Prince Hall Grand Lodge at a distance and the Prince Hall Grand Lodge is fine with a business as usual mentality. I'm just waiting for a Grand Master from either side to initiate something that would fundamentally change Freemasonry.



Hey Blake, the first sentence in your post really sums up what I've been saying. The question posed by the individual suggested that PH existence is unnecessary. I just wanted him to understand y  PH existed in the first place, and u just said it- bigotry and racism. And the the initial charge lies at the feet of so called mainstream Masonry. 

Now when you start getting into what you all have been fighting for in Texas and other places, it's a different topic. It's a topic that's needed. But it wasn't pertinent to the answer I gave the individual as to reason of PH existence. But now that I see that the topic is evolving, which is fine with me by the way, I deeply appreciate what you all are doing in Texas. I'm very aware of the fact that not all white masons are  stiffed neck and confined to bad cultural habits.  Im also aware of the fact that there are PH masons so bitter about the past that they're unwilling to make progress. 

I live in South Carolina where the GL of Sc and the PH GL of Sc still don't recognize each other. And being that Im a consultant for Verizon Wireless, I meet fellow masons on a daily basis. And I have meet some of my white brethren who made it crystal clear to me about their disgust of our current situation. And they have been emailing their GL and they ask me to keep emailing mine. So im fully aware that progress, however slow as it me be, is being made. I was aware of the that when I posted my first statement in this thread, but where we're at now just wasn't  pertinent to my initial post. 


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## tldubb

I agree with Bro. Blake it is a good thing what Texas is doing.  Bro. Upton I can only speak for my jurisdiction. The word "we" is to loose and cannot speak for all of Prince Hall. 

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## marty15chris

I by no means condone the actions by some of the brothers in the so called "mainstream" lodges but I believe the one main sticking point that some claim is that "PHA lodges where never permitted by their original charter to create new lodges" still holds back the PHA fraternity. Not saying I agree with it in this time of age but that may be one reason. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong in this thought. 


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## tldubb

marty15chris said:


> I by no means condone the actions by some of the brothers in the so called "mainstream" lodges but I believe the one main sticking point that some claim is that "PHA lodges where never permitted by their original charter to create new lodges" still holds back the PHA fraternity. Not saying I agree with it in this time of age but that may be one reason. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong in this thought.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect HD



That has already been settle by the mother lodge UGLE. So,  what is the excuse now? The fact that there are numerous GL'S that don't have there original charter or were created under far dubious circumstances.  Yet people like yourself use the same lame argument. So answer me this what other authority besides UGLE, has the right to question PHA lineage? Yes, in my opinion your wrong. Do your due diligence. 

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## bupton52

marty15chris said:


> I by no means condone the actions by some of the brothers in the so called "mainstream" lodges but I believe the one main sticking point that some claim is that "PHA lodges where never permitted by their original charter to create new lodges" still holds back the PHA fraternity. Not saying I agree with it in this time of age but that may be one reason. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong in this thought.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect HD



Yet no one questions the thousands of organizations that start up just because people assume the right to call themselves freemasons. At what point do we trust the research that has been checked and rechecked for hundreds of years?

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## BryanMaloney

gregw said:


> As a white man in PH I get more slack from white members in other lodges, it makes me more proud to be a part of PH than in a prominently white lodge, the way they give me a hard time, I stand up for my brothers and ask them to visit our lodge. They have yet to come. White lodges seem to still have some kind of grudge against PH, like we aren't the real thing. I refuse to believe that and will proudly stay were I'm at. Until the bi
> laws bring us together and everyone accepts it. We will need PH. That day may never come. Stay strong and in due bounds my brothers.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Freemason Connect HD mobile app



I think you mean "flack". To "get slack" is to get ease or consideration instead of being held to a "tight" standard.


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## BryanMaloney

tldubb said:


> That has already been settle by the mother lodge UGLE. So,  what is the excuse now? The fact that there are numerous GL'S that don't have there original charter or were created under far dubious circumstances.  Yet people like yourself use the same lame argument. So answer me this what other authority besides UGLE, has the right to question PHA lineage? Yes, in my opinion your wrong. Do your due diligence.



All of the colonial Grand Lodges were eliminated except for Loyalist/Tory lodges, and these all then dissolved or moved to Canada. Therefore, none of the state Grand Lodges of the USA were regular. None of them possessed legitimate charges, due to actions by UGLE during the Revolution. Does this mean that all state Grand Lodges are currently irregular?


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## BryanMaloney

bupton52 said:


> Yet no one questions the thousands of organizations that start up just because people assume the right to call themselves freemasons.



On my "side" of things, they are not questioned because the presumption is that they are thoroughly bogus, without needing to investigate.


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## bupton52

BryanMaloney said:


> On my "side" of things, they are not questioned because the presumption is that they are thoroughly bogus, without needing to investigate.



Exactly!! I was speaking in terms of the members of those organizations trying to find that "gotcha" with the legitimate organizations instead of focusing on their own. 

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## Brother JC

BryanMaloney said:


> All of the colonial Grand Lodges were eliminated except for Loyalist/Tory lodges, and these all then dissolved or moved to Canada. Therefore, none of the state Grand Lodges of the USA were regular. None of them possessed legitimate charges, due to actions by UGLE during the Revolution.



UGLE didn't exist during the Revolution, and at the time a large number of Lodges had Scottish Warrants.
Nearly every "colony" proudly touts their pre-revolution lineage, so I'm not sure how you can say they were all dissolved.


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## tldubb

I'm a Prince Hall Mason, so I must leave this forum. I find most to be...well I must subdue my passions. I'm satisfied with being s PHA Mason. GB!

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## marty15chris

tldubb said:


> I'm a Prince Hall Mason, so I must leave this forum. I find most to be...well I must subdue my passions. I'm satisfied with being s PHA Mason. GB!
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Freemason Connect HD mobile app



Brother I have to say I'm sorry to see you leave the forum. Good luck in all your future travels. If you happen to find yourself here again I hope it will be more rewarding for you. 


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## Blake Bowden

tldubb said:


> I'm a Prince Hall Mason, so I must leave this forum. I find most to be...well I must subdue my passions. I'm satisfied with being s PHA Mason. GB!
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Freemason Connect HD mobile app



Why? You are aware that Prince Hall Masons are welcome here -- in matter of fact we have PHA members on our Staff. If you see a post that you feel shows PHA Masonry unfavorably, hit the "!" button at the bottom and we'll review it. That being said, thread closed.


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