# One-Day classes, What do YOU think?



## cemab4y

Some states have "One-Day-Classes", where you arrive at the lodge building, at 0600am Saturday morning, and you leave at 600pm a Master Mason. 

What do you think about this?


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## Benton

If I had gone to a one day class, I would have been overwhelmed with information, and I don't know that I would have gone back. I wouldn't have had much of a chance to make the friendships I did while learning the catechisms. While I know the catechisms don't make the Mason, I do feel they lay the cornerstone upon which we build our future Masonic identity. And, through learning them, I learned how the lodge functioned, made friends, etc. None of which could have been done in a day.


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## coachn

It's an unnecessary 12 hour marathon.


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## Beathard

I believe that a new member learns more from the three separate degrees and the trial lecture process.  I can't see how a one day event would teach as much. 

I do however believe in special dispensation for men going into the military. I believe they should sign a contract that would require the to do all trial lectures upon returning.


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## cemab4y

Should there be exceptions made in unusual circumstances, like a soldier deploying overseas? During WW2, many lodges operated "around the clock", doing degree work, 24 hours a day, for soldiers.


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## Beathard

Definitely.


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## coachn

cemab4y said:


> Should there be exceptions made in unusual circumstances, like a soldier deploying overseas? During WW2, many lodges operated "around the clock", doing degree work, 24 hours a day, for soldiers.


Sure, if a man has already done the Work of the EA and FC, you know, subdue his passions, circumscribed his desires and become proficient in Virtues, the 7LAs&Ss and has created a Masterpiece, why not?

Otherwise, let him do the Work first.  Like everyone should (but that's another issue.)


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## jwhoff

Can't go this one boys ... for any reasons.  

I went through much sole searching progressing through my degrees.  Without which, I would not have had the supporting structure to make significant, critical changes.  Too many masons are walking the street in name only.  I can't see one-day classes turning that tide.  I consider masonic degrees to be ever bit as important to a man's formation as a formal education.


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## AAJ

Our Lodge had a petitioner who had been wounded while in Iraq. He was able to visit home for a few days in between hospital/physical therapy visits. We did the one day thing for him the permission of the Grand Lodge (we are in Utah). While back in DC, he recognized and was able to help a "distressed" Mason. 

I think that the one day class was beneficial for this brother, though it should still be used only in unusual circumstances. The degree ceremonies themselves can't teach nearly as much as the study of the degree ceremonies.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

Bad Idea.

First of all verboten by the GLoTX (2 weeks minimum between degrees). Secondly the participants benefit nothing from the information that they observe / receive.

The only way that I might agree to a one day or multiple degree day is if the Brother was already initiated, on his death bed, and was his last dying wish. Even if that was the case, he would only need to be obligated under the various degrees.


Of course I *DO* have some very "old school" and "traditional" opinions pertaining to our ancient fraternity.


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## tom268

One day classes are not known here in Germany. It would not function either, as EAs and FCs are full members of the lodge and participiate in any degree meeting possible for their degree. Waiting tims between degrees is between 9 and 12 month minimum, so the brothers visit about 5 to 10 meetings at least before they proceed. Many candidates ask for even more time, so they get the opportunity to "live their degree", to be an apprentice, to change their view of the world as a fellow craft, before they experience the MM degree.

Here, your work on your own rough ashlar begins with your first step into the lodge building, not as a MM. And the steps are only steps, if you get the opportunity to experience them as those. Mountaineers don't only enjoy the view on the top, they enjoy all the way to the top, and the challenges they have to overcome doing so. That makes the view at the top rewarding. A one day class is like beaming up directly to the top and enjoy the snack bar up there.


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## cemab4y

I think it is very beneficial, to have some time between the degrees, to "absorb" the lessons. The exact time, varies with the individual. I was in Indiana (2008), and the GL of Indiana, leaves the time frame up to the individual lodge. If the "coach" of the individual is satisfied, that the man has completed the degree, and has properly absorbed the lessons, and is proficient in the degree, then the man may proceed to the next degree. This policy ensures that the man has the lessons in his mind, and is not rushing things. 

I still am 100% in favor of having an accelerated program in special circumstances, such as a military man, deploying overseas.


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## Bro.BruceBenjamin

Their are a few PHA Grand Lodges that support one day classes but, (Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of South Carolina) currently does not support one day classes.


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## Blake Bowden

One day classes? No way. IMO, the journey through blue lodge should take years.


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## Dave in Waco

IMO there shouldn't be one day classes.  I really don't like the idea of "fast food Masonry".  The whole point of the degrees is to put yourself on a journey of learning the lessons taught in the degrees.  Personally, I kind of like the more Europeon model where degrees require months if not years.  But, a one day cram session is not a learning session, it like cramming the night before a big test.  You don't really learn the work, you hopefully memorize it long enough for the test.

Now I can see some reasons where special circumstances might give cause to do degrees in quick order, but those are special exceptions to the rule.


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## MikeMay

There is just too much to learn and reflect on going through the degrees, I would have to say that doing it in one day would not serve a brother at all.  The time with our mentors and the time reflecting and memorizing is invaluable to the beginning of our journey.

Its just my opinion but I think there is too much to lose for anyone to go through the degrees in a day...more especially for this fraternity of ours.


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## David Duke

Absolutely NOT!! I'm not even in favor of a Special Dispensation for military deployment simply because the decision to become a Mason is not something that should be done at the last minute. One should give it considerable thought and then if he so desires to petition enjoy the journey; as was stated above Masonry should not be delivered as "fast food" but be a lifetime experience so what is the rush to push someone to the finish line when there is not one?

I know  of a newly raised brother that had received Special Dispensation from the GM to receive all three degrees in the same day because he was going to Afganistan (for work not military duty although I'd still be against it if he was in the military). This brother was in his mid thirties, he had over 10 years to petition and then complete his work why should he have been granted the Special Dispensation?


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## KFerguson84

I had the opportunity to take the One Day Class and turned it down to instead go through the Blue Lodge Degrees like the men who traveled the road before me. Best decision I ever made.


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## Beathard

I believe the military dispensation is appropriate in some cases. A few years ago we had a 21 year old going into the military. He had volunteered with the lodge for several years. His dad and grandfather were both members. He had been waiting for years. It was not a last minute deal. Making him wait would have been criminal considering he was going to fight for us. I believe each case needs to be decided individually.


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## cemab4y

Bravo to your lodge! I have been working in Iraq/Afghanistan for the past 7 (seven) years. I work here by choice, I have not been in uniform for 30 years. There must be a consideration for special circumstances. I reside in Metro WashDC. The drive time and commuting here is the second worst in the USA (after Southern Calif). I would be delighted to see lodges offering degree work on Saturday mornings (ONE degree at a time). This would not compromise the experience for the candidate. 

When I was in Florida (2009), the Grand Master of Florida, declared that there would be no ODC's during his time in office. 

Very few topics get masons more "riled up", than ODC's.


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## Beathard

I am truly in the no category here, but I also believe there are valid exceptions to every rule.


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## tom268

I never heard of ODCs outside the US. So, why do other nations deal with the same problems differently? Maybe, because it IS a riling-up issue.


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## JohnnyFlotsam

No. Not now. Not ever. 
And especially not because "Today's candidates have busy lives and can't be expected to commit the time required for the traditional IPR path", which is the typical argument advanced for this travesty. 

We aren't making _Masons _with such a process, we are making _members_. I don't want more _members_, especially those who don't value what the Fraternity has to offer enough to commit the time required to actually learn it.


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## gnarledrose

I used to be more understanding of the one day classes, but I've come to  fall into the anti-class camp. I really appreciated the excitement and  anticipation between degrees, it motivated me to learn more about the  fraternity in general and the specific degrees in particular. And if you  don't have time to go through the degrees, how will you have time to  make it to regular business meetings or honor your Masonic obligations? Why would you feel obligated to help a suffering brother if you haven't been in lodge after your MM? Not to mention the countless lessons you'll miss by not associating with older Masons and more well-informed brethren.


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## Brent Heilman

As a new EA I cannot see doing a one day class. I know the one thing that drew me in was the tradition. As I went through my initiation I felt like I was a part of something far larger and grander than anything I could have imagined. My hunger for learning has been rekindled and I look forward to every single step on this journey. I just think that the magic would have been lost in a class and that I wouldn't have this need for more. To me what made it so appealing was the history and tradition and by being a one day Mason I would have lost all that magic and with it the drive.


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## KFerguson84

Brent Heilman said:
			
		

> As a new EA I cannot see doing a one day class. I know the one thing that drew me in was the tradition. As I went through my initiation I felt like I was a part of something far larger and grander than anything I could have imagined. My hunger for learning has been rekindled and I look forward to every single step on this journey. I just think that the magic would have been lost in a class and that I wouldn't have this need for more. To me what made it so appealing was the history and tradition and by being a one day Mason I would have lost all that magic and with it the drive.



Very well put. I had the same feeling going through the degrees. I still have it after being raised when I stumble upon a new piece of Masonic light which rekindles my need for more. 

You have the right attitude, Bro. Heilman! It only gets better from here! If you always keep Freemasonry on your mind, you will always have the desire.


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## Brent Heilman

Thank you for compliment Bro. Ferguson. To me the Ritual was a kind of a magical experience. It was more than I hoped for. I felt like a child at Disney World for the first time. I had studied what Masonry was and stood for for several months before I finally submitted my petition and by doing that I had built up expectations on what it would be like. It turned out be more than what I thought. I had read where other people felt that being initiated had changed them. I wondered how it could, but I just found out. As I went through the initiation I couldn't help but to think back to all that I had read. I felt like I could truly feel the past right there in the room with me. I can see why some people would like the One-Day-Class and I will never fault them for it, but for me I wanted to feel more connected to the past and it's traditions.


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## Jacob Johnson

i'm squarely in the "no" category as well. I felt that my degrees meant more to me BECAUSE of the fact that I had time to absorb the meaning of a single degree at a time. 

To be honest, I even feel like I missed out on a lot of the Scottish Rite by being a member of a class (not like you have a choice there), even though we did receive all 29 degrees. Afterwards as I was reading for the Master Craftsman quiz, I was surprised to find that there was a plethora of symbolism that was effectively invisible from my seat in the audience, even with a fairly good seat. That said, I know it is pretty much impossible to do the SR degrees on an individual basis, and that it would take FOREVER if you could. BUT i do think that it would help the candidate to absorb more of the material.

I feel like a ODC cheats the candidate out of that precious "personalized" kind of Masonry that you can take ownership of and be proud of. Others have said that the degrees were magical for them, and I felt the same way. Without the work, that magic is faded.


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## jwhoff

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> No. Not now. Not ever.
> And especially not because "Today's candidates have busy lives and can't be expected to commit the time required for the traditional IPR path", which is the typical argument advanced for this travesty.
> 
> We aren't making _Masons _with such a process, we are making _members_. I don't want more _members_, especially those who don't value what the Fraternity has to offer enough to commit the time required to actually learn it.


 
Off the topic of ODC masters ... I'm not too sure I don't agree with you totally.  I don't think I'm ever for more members.  I don't think I'd have a problem at all if there were only three or four million masons in the world.  That is, if I could be sure that those three or four million masons were true to the principles of the craft.

The more I think of it, the more I'm very sure I agree with your statement 100 percent!

Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with how good a mason a man can become who receives his degrees on one day.  However, I still believe he is at a distinct disadvantage and that his road will be a much tougher one filled with many a rough ashlar to overcome.


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## jwhary

I also have heard of states that have 1 day marathons.  I'm not sure that you really have time to absorb the importance of what was happening. It gave me time to visit other lodges and see the ceremonies that I went through.  Just my 2 cents worth.


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## JohnnyFlotsam

jwhoff said:


> Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with how good a mason a man can become who receives his degrees on one day.  However, I still believe he is at a distinct disadvantage and that his road will be a much tougher one filled with many a rough ashlar to overcome.


There are those that argue against that view, holding that the initiatory experience is part of what makes a man a Mason. The ODC candidate can not be said to have gone through that experience and will be something different than he would have been if he had gone through it. I can see some truth in that. Different, not necessarily "better", is certainly an unavoidable truth.


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## RTidwell

I have mixed feelings about one day classes but I do understand when they can be deemed necessary.

By having to learn the work you do gain a better understanding of the degrees.  It also helps in daily life because you are more apt to follow the lessons learned.  But I am also one that believes the FC is sadly overlooked even in a non one day event.

However I do believe that special dispensation should be given to those in the military when needed.


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## Beathard

They are needed from time to time, but should be very rare and should have a plan to fix the deficiencies at a later date.


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## Michaelstedman81

Hmmm, I answerd no to this but I do think that there could be a couple of situations that we can allow the one day class. For the reason of soldiers getting deployed, yes, I think that they should be allowed to have their stuff expedited. Even with that, I think that it should be for a soldier that is already an EA at least and then finds out that he is going to be deployed before he can finish all his work. I do kind of cringe at a soldier just coming to the lodge and getting all three degrees in one day when he has never really met the guys from the lodge. But, I am very supportive of the troops, especially those that want to join the Fraternity.

As for anyone else, unless there is a really good reason I think that each person should go through the degrees like normal. Like everyone has said, there is too much information and more of it would be forgotten if it is given over a one day period. 

I mean, look. Look at how the Scottish Rite degrees are. They have one, two, and three day events. But no work that needs to be turned in. There is no way that someone can get the first three degrees and complete the work in one day unless we totally did away with the work, come up with an extremely shorter version of the work, or just made them do the MM work. Either way, we are taking away we are taking away a solid foundation to build upon. Even the upper degrees like the Scottish Rite "build" upon the first three degrees. Whether the man is going to go on to do one of the Rites or not, taking away that solid foundation takes away the understanding of the teachings to become that "better man". It would just cause twice or more work for the iniate in the long run if he was actually doing all this for the right reason. For the most part, though, I see initiates coming in and getting their MM and then not really returning too much. At least when they have work to turn in to advance, they have a reason to be involved for a while.

I hope this don't offend...lol


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## Dave in Waco

While I do understand that there are special occassions for a One Day thing, as a rule, I say not only no, but hell no.  They rob the candidate of a special experience that gives them the common bond with other brethren.  As I often tell a nervous candidate, "You're not doing anything that everyone else in the room hasn't done."  

Ok, and sometimes I throw in a devilish, "And just try to relax it'll hurt less."


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## JJones

We seem to live in a society now that desires instant gratification and 1 day festivals seem to be an attempt to appeal to that.

That having been said, I disagree with it.  If you're going to make it so easy, why even bother with any of the ceremony and just give them a dues card?  I think giving up the waiting period and work causes masonry to sacrifice it's identity in the process.

If someone doesn't want to go through the trouble of learning the work and waiting a period of time between the degrees then masonry isn't for them at that time.  Masonry isn't for everyone, nor should it endeavor to be.

That's just my opinion though, I'm kinda old school.


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## JohnnyFlotsam

JJones said:


> We seem to live in a society now that desires instant gratification and 1 day festivals seem to be an attempt to appeal to that.


We may live in such a society, but I can tell you from first hand experience that most of those knocking on our doors today are definitely not looking for instant gratification when it comes to Freemasonry. They are looking for something quite apart from that; something with deep meaning and value.



> That having been said, I disagree with it.  If you're going to make it so easy, why even bother with any of the ceremony and just give them a dues card?  I think giving up the waiting period and work causes masonry to sacrifice it's identity in the process.
> 
> If someone doesn't want to go through the trouble of learning the work and waiting a period of time between the degrees then masonry isn't for them at that time.  Masonry isn't for everyone, nor should it endeavor to be.
> 
> That's just my opinion though, I'm kinda old school.


You and me both, Brother, but then we don't focus on things like membership and the revenue that brings in, out-of-step curmudgeons that we are. :001_tongue:


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## MikeMay

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> out-of-step curmudgeons that we are.



I'm not a cur...cur...what ever that is...I'm just crusty.:001_tt2:


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## Brent Heilman

I think that I would have actually walked away had I been told it would be a one-day class. I wanted the ritual and all the work that comes with it. The harder you have to work for something the more valuable it is to you.


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## Benton

Brent Heilman said:


> I think that I would have actually walked away had I been told it would be a one-day class. I wanted the ritual and all the work that comes with it. The harder you have to work for something the more valuable it is to you.


 
I think I would have done the same honestly.


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## wjdevans

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> We may live in such a society, but I can tell you from first hand experience that most of those knocking on our doors today are definitely not looking for instant gratification when it comes to Freemasonry. They are looking for something quite apart from that; something with deep meaning and value.


 
As an EA, I now that I am starving for the full experience. I am working hard to memorize the required work, but also disect each piece to gain as much from each nugget as I can.

My lodge is a small lodge where the majority are very old and don't know the work well. We do have a few brothers who are the backbone of our lodge and know the work immensely, but they are challenged with very busy work and travel schedules. 

Our lodge has not had an EA in many years, and now finds itself with four EA's currently with a high potential for two more in the next couple of months. 

There is some pressure on us EA's to hurry the work as several members of the lodge are concerned that we may lose interest in Masonry if we don't progress quickly. I don't agree with this. I refuse to let anyone dilute my journey and experience!


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## Beathard

Good for you! Enjoy every bit of your journey.  Looks like you have more understanding than most already.


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## davidterrell80

I voted NO... but, I have to observe that I spent Navy time in Hawaii, where in the last 10+ years, the GL started one-day-all-the-way programs... run by the GL... held twice a year. I saw about the same percentage of new masons become active, continuing members as I would expect going the long way. 

I prefer the traditional because of the emotional bond created between me and the men who worked in my degrees; not because of any inherent superiority in the system.

A Mason is made at heart before the degrees are ever conferred... they cannot make a mason out of someone who is not.

David


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## Beathard

Good post.


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## choppersteve03

i am for one day classes, it leaves more time for the man to do more esoteric work. after all it is about making roufgh ashlars perfect,right?


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## davidterrell80

Bro. Tom267, Thank you for commenting. When I was a member of the GL of Texas Membership Committee, I introduced the concept you describe, the EA and FC as lodge members with limited voting privileges and conducting business in the 1st degree. The GL of Texas operated in this manner until the American Civil War.

Adopting this manner of working would remove the pressure to push candidates to the 3rd degree and allow them to grow at a pace suited to their natures.

Tradition, especially those in living memory, are difficult to challenge.


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## JJones

choppersteve03 said:


> i am for one day classes, it leaves more time for the man to do more esoteric work. after all it is about making roufgh ashlars perfect,right?



Men will have all of their lives to focus on esoteric work after their degrees and a lot of the lessons we are taught derive directly from the memory work and associated degrees.

I've been getting very interested and involved in York Rite recently and it occurred to me that I knew nothing about any of the lessons that were supposed to be taught to me...in fact I realized I couldn't recall anything about the degrees either!  This was because our ceremonies were conducted at an all day festival and all I had to do was sit and watch.

Were the York Rite degrees and less impressive than my EA, FC, or MM degrees?  Not at all.  I remember my first three degrees vividly because I was actively involved and the memory work associated caused me to repetitively remember and reflect on my experiences.  I'm just not convinced you get this same kind of connection if you're just pushed through your degrees like some kind of conveyor belt.


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## chadwalker67

Never


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## Bro_Vick

In my opinion New Mexico has the right idea for One Day Classes.  The GLoNM has it once a year and the candidate has to be voted on by his mother lodge to receive the degrees in a one day class.  Most of the lodges are responsible enough and use the one day classes sparingly for life altering events (deployments, death of a close relative, loss of a job) vice just trying to put men through to keep their numbers up.

I believe this is the best and most responsible use of one-day classes and allows men to be made.


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## Michael Hatley

There was a visiting graduate from another state to our lodge of one of these programs.  He didn't even know the grip and the word.  I mean....

Personally, the sitting with a brother and learning the work over time is what it is all about.  You form a bond, and that bond is Masonry.

Only by due attention to their use do the compasses teach us.  Immediate gratification, to me, not only skips the lesson on keeping our passions within due bounds but in fact tears it down.  It is a lesson in patience and teamwork, in my opinion.  

Also doing it the old way is what connects us with the eldest of us, and with our forefathers.


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## Txmason

@Michael Hartley

I certainly agree with you! I treasured my path from EA to FC and to MM. Each part was just for me. I would never recommend a one day all the way class at all. For example when I became a Shriner last week, I felt rushed and hurried but I much prefer the blue lodge because it focuses the individual.


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## cog41

No.

One should take their time and learn. Study and ponder the lectures, and decide how to interpret and apply them to their life.

I don't see how a person can decipher, filter that much information in sucha short time and even begin to make it applicable to their life.

Just my humble opinion.


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## khilles

Wow thats crazy lol. So much info


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## Timothy Fleischer

coachn said:


> It's an unnecessary 12 hour marathon.



Coach... respectfully, I think you have it wrong there.
The one day class is not a marathon, it's a 20-yard sprint.
Learning and giving ALL of the questions and answers in each degree, that's the marathon.
I remember mine, even though it was mroe than 15 years. I met with my mentor every week and he taught me the work. Then in my exams, he asked one question and that was it!
His lessons have stuck with me far more than any other so-called "Aid to memory."


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## CajunTinMan

In general I am against it but, I do believe there is a time and place for it. One reason is when you have a young man who has been voted in but is being sent off to war. 
"General James Harold Doolittle has a most unique history regarding his Masonic membership due to his army connections in World War I. Acting under a special dispensation from the Grand Lodge of California, Hollenbeck Lodge No. 319, F. & A.M., of Los Angeles, elected him to receive the three degrees of Masonry on August 8, 1918. The candidate was at the time in Louisiana with the air force and had received orders to go overseas immediately. In consequence, the Grand Lodge of Louisiana issued a special dispensation allowing him to be initiated, passed, and raised during one meeting in Lake Charles Lodge No. 165, F.&A.M. on August 16, 1918. On October 19, 1945, General Doolittle received the 33rd degree at the House of the Temple in Washington with, among others, President Harry S. Truman, General Henry Harley Arnold, and James Cash Penney."


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## Brother JC

Not only do I dislike one-day classes, I dislike getting a man through the Degrees as quickly as possible. Once upon a time (and to this day is some jurisdictions) you had to wait a year between Degrees, and show competency in your studies before moving to the next step.


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## otherstar

I am against one day classes. I didn't like the fact that Texas changed the interval between degrees to two weeks (it was 30 days when I went through the degrees in 1997).


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## Bro_Vick

otherstar said:


> I am against one day classes. I didn't like the fact that Texas changed the interval between degrees to two weeks (it was 30 days when I went through the degrees in 1997).



Even that can be waived, special dispensation has allowed men to be raised much quicker.  With memory work intact of course.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## streeter

hello,

i joined the fraternity in england about 30 years ago....
the complete process took 18 months...
very fine i thought - and - the best decision i ever made...[apart from marrrying my wife!!]

robert streeter.


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## brother josh

One lunar month it's been that way for a long time why would u want to change tgat tradition 


My Freemasonry HD


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## JJones

otherstar said:


> I am against one day classes. I didn't like the fact that Texas changed the interval between degrees to two weeks (it was 30 days when I went through the degrees in 1997).



That's two weeks at a minimum however.  There's no reason your lodge can't have a policy that requires candidates to spend more time learning the work for their degree before progressing imo.


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## DoubleL

When I was inquiring and petitioning about joining I was told that there was a one day class coming up soon and would I like to go that route(I think it might of been a test).  I a very glad that I did not,  I believe that it would of taken alot away from from what I experienced.


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## amhdive

I am personally opposed to it. I think you lose so much of the early Masonic experiences by rushing the process. 


My Freemasonry HD


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## mfields78

I have to jump in here. I am a product of a one day class. I took that path only because of my work schedule at the time and it got me involved in my lodge sooner. Since then I have given the obligation in lodge, and studied and presented the EA Exam, and intend to do the same for all degrees. While I agree that a lot is rushed going that method, and I personally feel that the person should go through the degrees step by step to gain the lessons, there are some instances where the one day class is a great option. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using My Freemasonry HD mobile app


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## Jackel

Here in Wisconsin we used to have one day classes that we would call Man-to-Mason days. My father recieved his degrees at the last one we had about 7 or 8 years ago. Since then we have gotten rid of them and thank God! The whole motivation behind it was a membership drive. My father to this day describes it as "drinking from a fire hose". I am very against them because in my opinion if someone were to be just given all the degrees at the same time then they lose all meaning. Something given has no value. Something earned and sought after is much more valuable. Not to mention one of the first things asked in the FC is "Has he made suitable proficiency in the preceding degree?"


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## masonicdove

As a FC who has just completed his 2nd proficiency I can not see myself going through a one day class for all 3 degrees. There is so much to soak in and to digest that I enjoyed taking time to talk with the SW to really understand what was happening. Plus I have gained new brothers in this process and we have taken time to encourage and strengthen one another. Even now as I go back and critically read about the EA and FC I appreciate the time between degrees.


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## Thegentlesoldier

Presently in Missouri we have what we call a C2A. That is a chance to advance. You can get your second and third ~ in the same day en mass, You have to have a first degree for 24 hours before you can do the second-degree. Usually one of the candidates will be the exemplar to go through the ceremony while the others set closely and watch and participate at all obligations and the raising. We have an education officer standing close to them and explaining everything that is going on so they will get the best possible understanding of such a class. Of course the Grandlodge has the authorization to perform a mason-on-site, which is a one day of all 3~s ceremony abbreviated. This is rare. 


My Freemasonry


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## JJones

Is being an EA for 24 hours anymore beneficial than being one for any shorter period?


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## crono782

@Thegentlesoldier: What you describe above is exactly what I hope to never see as a normal routine here, primarily for the reasons @dalinkou says previous to your post.

I begin to wonder, why such a rush to get the degrees? If it takes a year or two, so be it. If things play out like @dalinkou says (with which I agree) and men cannot properly absorb/apply the degrees to their life in the span of a day, then what is the purpose? The title of the degree? Very contrary to the whole point.


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## JJones

Its like hypothetically giving someone a masters degree in architecture after paying a fee and watching a presentation.  You'd basically be paying for a piece of paper and the right to say 'I'm an architect!'.  Of course, you'd be an architect in name only because you wouldn't know where to start when the time came to build a skyscraper.


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## crono782

Using your analogy, what it really seems the mentality is that we do as you say, give them the title after only a cursory education/presentation, but then we expect them to actually become an architect by learning on the job. Sounds a bit backwards, doesn't it? We espouse masonic education left and right, but it's usually after-the-fact education.


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## Thegentlesoldier

The candidates that get their  C2A do not get as much information out of the degree as they would have if they would've took their time and went through it at a regular pace. Many do not return to the lodge after they get their third degree. It is important to recommend someone that will benefit the Lodge as well as the Lodge benefit them. If a candidate does a lot of work and learning and preparation into becoming a Master Mason then he is more likely to stay involved after he becomes one. 
I think one of the main reasons for doing these classes is if you have several candidates and you want to get them through before the end of the year they could do it more quickly. There is emphasis on the mentor system to help keep in contact with the newly made brother and peak his interest and hopefully keep him involved. Sadly Masonry, like most other organizations, only has about 10% to 12% of their membership that are active.


My Freemasonry


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## dfreybur

Thegentlesoldier said:


> Presently in Missouri we have what we call a C2A. That is a chance to advance. You can get your second and third ~ in the same day en mass...



Illinois calls this "Blue Lightning" and has been doing it for years.  What changed my attitude was when a brother who had skipped 2nd degrees scheduled at lodge showed up to get his degrees together and then became a regular at lodge.  Having been through my degrees, degrees are now about the candidate not about me.  A different brother who did Blue Lightning followed me through the line and is now a state officer in Jobs Daughters.

The important part is the statistics on renewal, attendance and activity in appendant bodies.  The numbers I've seen are no different than traditional degrees at lodge.  Guys complain that few who come in through classes attend, but that's true of the ones who come in a degree at a time as well.  The numbers only matter when compared.  When compared the numbers are the same.

The candidates still need to present their proficiencies at lodge.  It's not a reduction in requirements.  It's a reordering of the requirements.


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## crono782

there always exceptions to every situation. I've no doubt some men who were the product of insta-mason days turn out to be outstanding members. something just tugs at the back of my mind and it feels wrong for the long-term health of the craft. cultivating members who chose expediency over time and effort seems like one of those "it seemed innocuous so many ears ago, but bit us in the end" kinda things. sure it bolsters membership by giving more men the opportunity, but then again, we all know masonry is a major time sink. do men who do not have the time to give as well as receive deserve the craft? I do feel all worthy men deserve the light of masonry, but is that mindset going to get us in trouble some day? who can say?

EDIT: I guess I feel like one day masons should be a rarity much like the "made on sight" mason kinda thing. only done in circumstances where members feel very strongly that Mr. X would really make a great mason, but circumstances pretty much prevent him being able to attend degrees in a reasonable time (like military deployment or, in a case in my lodge, a member got sent to UAE for work for a year). Rather than skipping the degrees w/ the on sight thing, a one day could be done with, like you said, proficiencies to follow afterward. and never done as a "class", but by the actual lodge. I think it then shows great dedication of that lodge to its future brother in need.


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## Perry

I think we should make it harder, and spend more time, studying the degrees and symbolism. Anybody can memorize lines, there was a time when your average members were called Fellowcrafts.


My Freemasonry


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## JJones

> there always exceptions to every situation. I've no doubt some men who were the product of insta-mason days turn out to be outstanding members. something just tugs at the back of my mind and it feels wrong for the long-term health of the craft. cultivating members who chose expediency over time and effort seems like one of those "it seemed innocuous so many ears ago, but bit us in the end" kinda things. sure it bolsters membership by giving more men the opportunity, but then again, we all know masonry is a major time sink. do men who do not have the time to give as well as receive deserve the craft? I do feel all worthy men deserve the light of masonry, but is that mindset going to get us in trouble some day? who can say?



Well, we know that retention from ODCs are about the same as more commonly accepted route...so there's no difference in that aspect aside from the fact that we've made it quick and easy at the cost of cheapening the craft.

What about men who want to join but don't have the time to receive the degrees in the traditional route?  I'd respectfully suggest that perhaps they should join later when they have more time.  If they can't make the time to attend the degrees then it's unlikely that they'll have the time to attend meetings either.  This means that they are unlikely to benefit from being a mason at this point and the lodge is unlikely to benefit from their membership.  Why should we create more masons when nobody really benefits?

Are there success stories related to ODCs? Sure, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.


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## Perry

The GL system is only a container for Freemasonry, just holding the title doesn't make you a Mason. Masonry today is like being in the Lions or Rotary Club. 


My Freemasonry


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## hallodge

It has it's pros and cons


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## Blake Bowden




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## helipilot

At first I was for it. Wanting badly to become a mason. However, after experiencing the degree work and realizing the time required to return a perfect catechism, I personally think everyone should get to MM the old fashion way   


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## nixxon2000

My mentor and I have discussed this at pervious meetings. 80% of me agrees that it should take time and that you get more out of it in the long run. However the other 10% sees the value of doing the insta-mason day. 

I know in some countries it can take a year between degrees. However the EA and FC can participate in meetings of their degree which are available often. I know that here in Wisconsin stated meetings are held in the MM degree. So an EA or FC can miss out on lectures and visitors.  However since the minimum time between degrees is only 2 weeks ( and I think it should be longer) there are few reasons I think we need the day classes. 



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## j_gimpy

In my jurisdiction I am against them. Every lodge I've been to is more than willing to step down to FC or EA so a brother of that degree can attend. Likewise, one has the option of either proving up/doing proficiency, or doing an alternate proficiency composed of technical questions related to symbolism and protocol to advance to the next degree. 



Junior Steward
Phoenix Lodge #154
Sumner, WA


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## Aircraftmaniac

I have gotten so much out of doing it the old fashion way. Instamaster would have made me feel cheated out of the preparations for each degree and I would have felt that I did not earn the degrees

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## flameburns623

About half of those who were joining when I came in were really only interested in beconing Shriners. 
At that time, one had to belong to both a Blue Lodge and either the York Rite or the Scottish Rite, before you could petition for the Shrine.

Many of the Blue Lightning classes offered the option to be made a Scottish Rite 32° AND a Shriner in short order. (I don't know if this was done in one day or in two).

I opted NOT for the Blue Lightning initiation but instead took nearly five years to go from EA to MM, having experienced a divorce,  moved out of Illinois,  then remarried and moved BACK  to Illinois in that period of time.

My York Rite initiation was done all in a single day, and with the option offered (again) to become a Scottish Rite AND Shriner for additional fees (ballpark estimate,  around  $250.00, but that's from memory). I was tempted, although my interest was less in the Shriners than in the Scottish Rite. 

It appears that MOST York and Scottish Rite inductees experience their degree work in single-day sessions. I don't see that doing likewise in the Blue Lodge is going to adversely affect membership.

Clearly during my initiations, many of those involved in doing the various rituals were reading from scripts, had never studied the rituals they were conducting, and yet conveyed the purposes and intent of each section or degree as well as did more-polished members.

I saw similar variations in familiarity with degrees when I  attended meetings. A few Brothers knew their roles well,  many (sometimes most) were reading from the Blue Book or watching the rest of us for visual cues as to what to do next.

If the retention/attrition rates are similar, make Blue Lightning/ One Day Classes an option. But make Lodge classes a priority.  And recognise that some are going to drop out, and others will focus on appendant organizations such as the Shriners. 

My two cents.

Edit: btw: I felt, as did many others here,  that I got a GREAT DEAL MORE out of earning my degrees the 'old way' than I might have done via Blue Lightning.


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## Kenneth NC Mason

My blue lodge degrees were done the traditional way..

When I went through my York Rite degrees they were done over the course of three evenings in the following order 

Wednesday Night- Mark Master- Most Excellent Master
Saturday Morning- Royal Arch, Council Degrees, Order of Red Cross, Order of Malta.

Another Wednesday night but this time at Castle McCulloh- Order of the Temple

I felt like doing it this way I was able to digest the information a lot better.

When I went to a one day York Rite festival...I...was...shocked

They had to skip entire lectures for the sake of time, the ones who did do the lectures literally left out in some cases entire paragraphs , and the whole thing seemed draining. By the time it was done everyone was tired , and I'll bet you a million dollars the candidates brains were fried.

I'm not a fan of one day classes for any Masonic body because I feel like it cheapens the experience for the candidate. If we're against it for blue lodge , why do we allow it for York and Scottish Rite ? Just asking a question, not causing a debate 


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## Brother JC

Most who are against it at a Craft Lodge level are also against it in appendant bodies.


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## flameburns623

Kenneth NC Mason said:


> My blue lodge degrees were done the traditional way..
> 
> When I went through my York Rite degrees over the course of three evenings in the following order
> 
> Wednesday Night- Mark Master- Most Excellent Master
> Saturday Morning- Royal Arch, Council Degrees, Order of Red Cross, Order of Malta.
> 
> Another Wednesday night but this time at Castle McCulloh- Order of the Temple
> 
> I felt like doing it this way I was able to digest the information a lot better.
> 
> When I went to a one day York Rite festival...I...was...shocked
> 
> They had to skip entire lectures for the sake of time, the ones who did do the lectures literally left out in some cases entire paragraphs , and the whole thing seemed draining. By the time it was done everyone was tired , and *I'll bet you a million dollars the candidates brains were fried.*
> 
> I'm not a fan of one day classes for any Masonic body because I feel like it cheapens the experience for the candidate. If we're against it for blue lodge , why do we allow it for York and Scottish Rite ? Just asking a question, not causing a debate
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry



You would win that bet at MY York Rite initiation.


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## Glen Cook

Kenneth NC Mason said:


> My blue lodge degrees were done the traditional way..
> 
> ...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry



Oh, you mean the two degrees in one day?


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## Kenneth NC Mason

Glen Cook said:


> Oh, you mean the two degrees in one day?



Lol... nope 


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## dfreybur

flameburns623 said:


> Clearly during my initiations, many of those involved in doing the various rituals were reading from scripts, had never studied the rituals they were conducting, and yet conveyed the purposes and intent of each section or degree as well as did more-polished members.



Interesting.  In my degrees all the Brothers had memorized their parts.  It was impressive.  But I've seen degrees with individual Brothers reading their parts and the candidates didn't notice - and not always for the obvious reason.  The side liners notice vastly more than the candidates.



> Edit: btw: I felt, as did many others here,  that I got a GREAT DEAL MORE out of earning my degrees the 'old way' than I might have done via Blue Lightning.



The proficiencies are still mandatory from any Brother who gets his degrees rapidly.  All that changes is when they get delivered.  So while I feel I got a great deal out of doing my proficiencies one degree at a time that also happens for any Brother who gets his degrees rapidly.

Rapid ways I've seen -

All three in one day.  Works fine when the candidate intends to move on to the Shrine immediately.  Does not happen in Texas.  Has happened once in the last decade in Illinois.  Used to happen one group per year in California back in the 1990s.  Candidates still need to turn in their proficiencies, but the appendent bodies don't reject Brothers who never bother.

FC and MM together called Blue Lightning.  I've only seen this in Illinois.  Candidates still need to turn in their proficiencies.  Statistics say at least as many candidates become active as ones who do individual degrees.  I've seen exactly that happen though I've never understood why it works that way.

Three degrees in three days immediately before a military deployment overseas.  The Brother needs to work on and present his proficiencies when he returns.  I've only been on degree teams for this in Illinois but I suspect it's an option in several other states.


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## billyjfootball

In PA, there is a one day class where you get all three blue lodge degrees, get your 32 Scottish Rite degree, and become a Shriner.  All in one day!!

How does anybody get anything from that?  I can see maybe one full day for each degree or something.

I'm glad I chose traditional way.


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## Kenneth NC Mason

billyjfootball said:


> In PA, there is a one day class where you get all three blue lodge degrees, get your 32 Scottish Rite degree, and become a Shriner.  All in one day!!
> 
> How does anybody get anything from that?  I can see maybe one full day for each degree or something.
> 
> I'm glad I chose traditional way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry



I agree ! And as unique as I hear PA Ritual is, it's something to be experienced slowly and one degree at a time. 


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## dfreybur

billyjfootball said:


> In PA, there is a one day class where you get all three blue lodge degrees, get your 32 Scottish Rite degree, and become a Shriner.  All in one day!!
> 
> How does anybody get anything from that?



Where anybody is the candidate - He gets into the Shrine.  Where anybody is the blue lodge's budget - We get an annual dues check.  Where anybody is the lodge's degree team - We don't waste our time on a Brother who is almost never going to attend.

To me that's a win-win.



> I'm glad I chose traditional way.



As am I.  But my degrees were about me and your degrees were about you.  As hard as it is to accept the candidate's degrees are about him not us.

I am gratified that most candidates now chose the slow way but I reached peace with Shriners rushing through their degrees to get to the Shrine.  I am a Shriner who happens to be vastly more involved at the blue lodge level rarely attending the Shrine.


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## flameburns623

dfreybur said:


> Where anybody is the candidate - He gets into the Shrine.  Where anybody is the blue lodge's budget - We get an annual dues check.  Where anybody is the lodge's degree team - We don't waste our time on a Brother who is almost never going to attend.
> 
> To me that's a win-win.
> 
> 
> 
> As am I.  But my degrees were about me and your degrees were about you.  As hard as it is to accept the candidate's degrees are about him not us.
> 
> I am gratified that most candidates now chose the slow way but I reached peace with Shriners rushing through their degrees to get to the Shrine.  I am a Shriner who happens to be vastly more involved at the blue lodge level rarely attending the Shrine.



Appreciate this Brother's perspective on this.


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## Levelhead

Every 1 day mason i have met ive not been impressed with. Have also had bad dealings with them. One of my lodges is full of them. 

They just dont know their obligations.. i dont blame them.. i blame the lodge for being desperate for members and doing 1 day raisings.

Rushing people through cause you got an open sw, jw, or even a wm chair nobody wanted.

Throw them in a top 3 chair and you have created a monster whom now had a power trip but dont even know the work.

Then they are in a rush to raise people fast, then let them "mentor" new candidates. What a joke. You have created a mini version of your 1 day mentality. 

Recipe for destruction that ive heard happened years before and will probably happen again.

With that said its not directed to every 1 day mason. Im sure there are great apples in a bag of bad apples all the time! 

Just reflecting in my personal experiences. 


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## Warrior1256

I can only speak for myself. I went through a one day AASR class. Information overload? Sure, but it did not dissuade me. This was 14 months ago and I have been very active in the AASR ever since and have a better understanding of it every time that I attend. I feel that I would have done the same if I had attended a one day Blue Lodge class.


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## stevenellis11

I disagree on this method of fast tracking , how could you turn to this brother for advice and knowledge if he has been on a one day course .
Surely this would not give him the respect as it would a time served Master Mason 


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## Glen Cook

stevenellis11 said:


> I disagree on this method of fast tracking , how could you turn to this brother for advice and knowledge if he has been on a one day course .
> Surely this would not give him the respect as it would a time served Master Mason
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


How does two months in the fraternity give that respect for a time served MM?


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## CLewey44

cemab4y said:


> Some states have "One-Day-Classes", where you arrive at the lodge building, at 0600am Saturday morning, and you leave at 600pm a Master Mason.
> 
> What do you think about this?


Whack....


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## David612

It depends entirely on the lodge culture, if there are good mentoring programs in place and time will be spent with the new master to ensure the lessons are really passed on then the degree itself is irrelevant BUT the weight of the lessons can’t be fully comprehend in a day in my opinion


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## rpbrown

I believe that special dispensation should be given to those in the military and either deployed or about to be deployed. After all, they are fighting for our freedoms and could possibly not make it back. The work can be learned in time, MM or not.
Otherwise, absolutely not.


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## okielabrat

This may ruffle a feather or two, which is not my intention, but my answer in short is a firm *NO!*

Our Grand Lodge in Guthrie, OK has this program, and while it may appeal to the later generations who want it all quickly, it makes me think of the phrase "Instant Mason". I learned the work the hard way, and had a patient instructor, and wasn't even the least bit nervous when I turned in my work. I learned a great deal from my initiation, passing and raising ceremonies, as they left a more lasting impression upon my mind and heart than a Readers Digest Condensed Version class ever could. I even held off wearing any Masonic jewelry until I turned in my MM proficiency as a form of motivation- delayed gratification is a sweeter reward than instant gratification, IMO.

I am now attending floor work sessions to participate in degree teams, as well as any future terms as a lodge officer, Lord willing. But then again, I was raised by parents who had the Puritan work ethic, and at the tender young age of 61 I find myself approaching the work more & more like Dad would have in his career.

Could there be special cases? Yes, and they must be examined carefully. Otherwise, time to get your hands dirty.


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## flameburns623

In Illinois,  moving from EA to MM has already been significantly simplified.  Very little memory work,  more inductive lessons and review of the degree lecture just given. I am told that these strategies are producing Masons just as good as the former mouth-to-ear rote learning generated. If the candidate is diligent,  the process can be completed in a relatively few weeks.  

One can still do the hard work of memorizing the catechism of each degree and being publicly examined by the WM: but this has reportedly become the exception and not the rule. 

Instead, MM's who remain active are eventually promoted "through the chairs", learning as they go. 

Since this is how we are raising men to the Sublime Degree of Master Mason,  I don't see that this work cannot be performed in One-Day Festivals as easily as over an extended period.

Illinois occasionally has "Grand Master Festivals" to this end--in fact, just had one in June. I had hoped that my son-in-law would prepare himself to attend, but things got in his way. He still has the option to progress using the simplified learning modules which are the standard for Illinois these days.


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## Glen Cook

okielabrat said:


> This may ruffle a feather or two, which is not my intention, but my answer in short is a firm *NO!*
> 
> Our Grand Lodge in Guthrie, OK has this program, and while it may appeal to the later generations who want it all quickly, it makes me think of the phrase "Instant Mason". I learned the work the hard way, and had a patient instructor, and wasn't even the least bit nervous when I turned in my work. I learned a great deal from my initiation, passing and raising ceremonies, as they left a more lasting impression upon my mind and heart than a Readers Digest Condensed Version class ever could. I even held off wearing any Masonic jewelry until I turned in my MM proficiency as a form of motivation- delayed gratification is a sweeter reward than instant gratification, IMO.
> 
> I am now attending floor work sessions to participate in degree teams, as well as any future terms as a lodge officer, Lord willing. But then again, I was raised by parents who had the Puritan work ethic, and at the tender young age of 61 I find myself approaching the work more & more like Dad would have in his career.
> 
> Could there be special cases? Yes, and they must be examined carefully. Otherwise, time to get your hands dirty.


And yet, in the early days of Scottish Freemasonry, the two degrees were conferred at once. In English Freemasonry, the proficiency usually consists of about 11 questions, with the deacon there to assist. 

Also, I’ve not seen the degrees in an accelerated program to be a Readers Digest condensed version. They are fully performed.


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## dalinkou

okielabrat said:


> This may ruffle a feather or two, which is not my intention, but my answer in short is a firm *NO!*
> 
> Our Grand Lodge in Guthrie, OK has this program, and while it may appeal to the later generations who want it all quickly, it makes me think of the phrase "Instant Mason". I learned the work the hard way, and had a patient instructor, and wasn't even the least bit nervous when I turned in my work. I learned a great deal from my initiation, passing and raising ceremonies, as they left a more lasting impression upon my mind and heart than a Readers Digest Condensed Version class ever could. I even held off wearing any Masonic jewelry until I turned in my MM proficiency as a form of motivation- delayed gratification is a sweeter reward than instant gratification, IMO.
> 
> I am now attending floor work sessions to participate in degree teams, as well as any future terms as a lodge officer, Lord willing. But then again, I was raised by parents who had the Puritan work ethic, and at the tender young age of 61 I find myself approaching the work more & more like Dad would have in his career.
> 
> Could there be special cases? Yes, and they must be examined carefully. Otherwise, time to get your hands dirty.



The term "McMason" comes to mind.  This practice (in my opinion) is not far removed from turning the craft into a public accommodation, where anyone with the appropriate fee gets in without an investigation or a vote.  It won't hurt anyone to actually do "work", so I would suggest that the whole ODC McMason idea is discarded.


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## okielabrat

ee


> Also, I’ve not seen the degrees in an accelerated program to be a Readers Digest condensed version. They are fully performed.



They may be, but I much prefer the degree rituals I participated in as a new Mason, as they left a deep, lasting impression on me. But then again, I like to work for my rewards- that's just my opinion. It wasn't really easy for me to learn my degree work, but I took pride in the proficiencies I turned in. It is my hope that these one-day Masons will get some sense of the teachings of each degree.


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## Warrior1256

okielabrat said:


> It wasn't really easy for me to learn my degree work, but I took pride in the proficiencies I turned in.


Same here. When I performed my proficiency in open lodge it was a good feeling, a feeling of a job well done.


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## Roy_

The idea alone of one day classes or seeing somebody else going through a degree is what surprises European Masons. I don't think there's any organisation here (regular or irregular) that does this. One exception though. When a new order is to be found (like a Le Droit Humain federation in the early 1900's) and MMs are needed to start lodges, some people were rushed through their degrees. I don't think it has happened since. Neither do I see the reason for it. It's all for the lodge, not for the candidate. The lodge needs members, somebody who they can throw the Secretary function at, etc. but what's in it for the candidate? 
Over here, the candidate doesn't memorise a catechism (at least, not in all organisations), but has to show (s)he has understood the degree and give a lecture about it and how it applies to every day life. This -of course- wouldn't work in a one day event.
A while ago there was (I believe it was) a Masonic Roundtable with a few people questioning some members of one of the American mixed gender organisations. When one mentioned that it took about 25 years to reach the 33º of the AASR, the rest started to applaud. Where's the fun when you cram 25 years of learning and experience into one day? The title? The possibility of membership of another organisation? Is that all there is to FM?


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## Bloke

Are Americans Still doing this in many places ?

Is the poll still representative of views ?


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## Glen Cook

It is still being done.  I can’t answer as to the poll.


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## Bloke

Glen Cook said:


> It is still being done.  I can’t answer as to the poll.


Thanks Bro Glen

It seems Ohio and Massachusetts are still; doing them, but have they generally been dropped or is the format still popular in USA GLs ?


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## Winter

My home jurisdiction ended them and I had thought I had seen the last of this horrible practice of one day classes and Man to Mason programs. Sadly, recent Grand Masters have received the programs and even issued edicts that Brothers are to carry pocket petitions and actively recruit members.  

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## Glen Cook

Bloke said:


> Thanks Bro Glen
> 
> It seems Ohio and Massachusetts are still; doing them, but have they generally been dropped or is the format still popular in USA GLs ?


Still popular


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## Winter

Glen Cook said:


> Still popular


Sadly.  

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## PaulAbernathy

Blake Bowden said:


> One day classes? No way. IMO, the journey through the blue lodge should take years.


Lord knows it has been taking me years...I started back in 2007 in Virginia and well "Life Happened" so here I am in Texas and now still working through my EA. The memorization seems daunting but I will continue to press on. So yes, my journey thus far has been quite long and I clearly have a long road ahead of me.


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## Mark Petro

NO!!
A temple is not built in a day, neither can the internal temple. You have to do the work, otherwise the internal temple will not have firm foundations.


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## Glen Cook

Mark Petro said:


> NO!!
> A temple is not built in a day, neither can the internal temple. You have to do the work, otherwise the internal temple will not have firm foundations.


But I don’t see an appreciable difference that occurs in the building of that temple in less than a month, as compared to a day. I’ve been building for a number of years using a number of tools.  I’m about done with the foundation.


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## jermy Bell

I have talked with a couple brothers from England about this, and (I) believe they got it right. There is a long space between degrees. Which you have to learn what each degree is about. Here in the states , it's like a drive through at a fast food restaurant. Get them in and passed so they can do (nothing).........


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## Glen Cook

jermy Bell said:


> I have talked with a couple brothers from England about this, and (I) believe they got it right. There is a long space between degrees. Which you have to learn what each degree is about. Here in the states , it's like a drive through at a fast food restaurant. Get them in and passed so they can do (nothing).........


Four weeks under UGLE Rule 72 is actually less than many US GLs which are 30 days between degrees.


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## Bloke

Mark Petro said:


> NO!!
> A temple is not built in a day, neither can the internal temple. You have to do the work, otherwise the internal temple will not have firm foundations.


I like what @Glen Cook said - I am also still just working on the foundation and I am not even sure it has more than a couple of stones hanging around it... I have a long long way to go (I hope LOL!).


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## Bloke

I have been reading up one these; found this comment interesting

http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspo...howComment=1540228020817#c3002623224727679411


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## CLewey44

So basically this is saying its not a "problem" in masonry but its also not a solution since the data was identical. This then must ponder the question, since one day conferrals do not improve Freemasonry's stats, why dont we just take it slow again and let the candidates individually experience the degrees? Temperance, no?

I know some GLs allow multiple candidates/brothers to go thru at a time but I also dont like that. It seems more of a convenience thing than anything for lodge members. Give each man his own night. A. This keeps the degree team members up to par and well practiced. No more Sunday night rehearsal if you are doing them regularly. B. It allows us sideliners to see the degrees regularly and chance to ponder them more and more. C. It felt very special knowing all these strangers came together on three different occassions just for me. I felt welcomed in that regard.


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## Winter

If the candidate is not actually having an initiatic experience as their first steps in Freemasonry then all they are doing is checking the boxes needed so they can attend the business meeting and vote on the bills. We are either making Masons or we are making Members. I woul never say that some men who come in through the one day classes do not go on to become excellent and learned Brothers. I'm one. I've told my story before, when I came in over twenty years ago, it was in a Man 2 Mason one day class. I thought that's how everyone did it. Back then, I knew little of Freemasonry and how it was supposed to be.  Once I experienced the ritual the way it was meant to be my eyes were opened wide. And I vowed I would never support the sham way I was raised.  I was cheated of a true initiation and was only able to find some peace by learning as many parts as I could and giving the meaningful experience I was robbed of to others.  So when I voice my disgust concerning one day classes it is from experience. I dont care what the numbers say, those practices are horrible for our Craft.  

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## Winter

JamestheJust said:


> >I was cheated of a true initiation
> I was at an initiation a couple of years ago and asked the candidate afterwards if he felt differently.  He said he felt bigger.  I was not surprised as I had observed that there was Light flowing down into him as he took his obligation so that his aura was indeed bigger.
> Unfortunately the flow of Light is not usually very strong in Masoni ritual.  In that case it was the caliber of the candidate that caused the flow - not the caliber of the ritual team.
> So that is my usual observation - the candidate triggers the inner event.  This is not the direct fault of the ritual teams.  The tide has gone out on the current form of Freemasonry and only exceptional candidates get what they come for.



So, your take on my story is that it was my fault that I felt cheated because of a poor initiation practice where I was rushed through all three degrees in one day with 80+ other men?  Pretty bold statement.  I guess my "aura" isn't strong enough.


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## Bloke

Winter said:


> If the candidate is not actually having an initiatic experience as their first steps in Freemasonry then all they are doing is checking the boxes needed so they can attend the business meeting and vote on the bills. We are either making Masons or we are making Members. I woul never say that some men who come in through the one day classes do not go on to become excellent and learned Brothers. I'm one. I've told my story before, when I came in over twenty years ago, it was in a Man 2 Mason one day class. I thought that's how everyone did it. Back then, I knew little of Freemasonry and how it was supposed to be.  Once I experienced the ritual the way it was meant to be my eyes were opened wide. And I vowed I would never support the sham way I was raised.  I was cheated of a true initiation and was only able to find some peace by learning as many parts as I could and giving the meaningful experience I was robbed of to others.  So when I voice my disgust concerning one day classes it is from experience. I dont care what the numbers say, those practices are horrible for our Craft.
> 
> Transmitted via R5 astromech using Tapatalk Galactic


Thanks for sharing this Brother.. a very interesting comment..


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## Winter

JamestheJust said:


> >it was my fault that I felt cheated
> 
> In the esoteric tradition, the initiate is always self-made.  The aspiring human does the work of establishing right relationship with humanity, Nature and him/herself.   At the same time the aspirant is increasing alignment with the Light.  When those works have proceded sufficiently the Light follows the new line of least resistance and flows through the human who then stabilizes the flow and starts on the next stage of right relationship.
> 
> It is very rare for such a stabilization to occur during a Masonic initiation but I have seen it twice.


There's really no point in arguing with you since your view of Freemasonry is so radically different than anything most Freemasons would recognize that there is no common framework to debate from. Your literally post in almost every response you make, regardless of the topic being discussed, ends up being about light flowing here and there and vibrations and every other buz word from the Kybalion.  And your response here is just as appropriate as usual for you.  

Rather than actually discuss the efficacy of rushing a petitioner through all of the rituals in the minimum amount of time possible, without any opportunity for contemplation or to absorb the teachings (the actual foundation of western esoteric principals) and the negative effect this might have on the Lodge and the person, your contribution is to state that it is the candidate that is to blame for not being properly attenuated in that circumstance. I'm sorry James, you've made some nonsensical posts but I think this one takes the cake. 

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## David612

You know-
The more I think about it I don’t think the issue is really the fact that it’s a one day class but rather the often sub par delivery and large number of candidates.
If it was a single brother doing all three degrees I don’t know that he’s be worse off in any real sense as the knowledge isn’t really gained at first viewing.


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## Winter

JamestheJust said:


> Do you not recognize that establishing right relationships with humans is the work of the EA and right relationship with Nature is the work of the FC?
> 
> In the 3rd degree the candidate is raised from darkness into the Light.
> 
> The rituals thereby reflect the inner processes that the brother may or may not pursue.



Do you recognize that Freemasonry is a system of morality taught by allegory? Freemasonry has elements of alchemy in it, but it is not an alchemical school. It has elements of kabbalism in it, but we are not, strictly speaking, kabbalists. It has elements of hermetic philosophy in it, but we are not hermeticists. And a dozen other philosophies and schools of thought. 

What you have just posted here is absolutely correct, while at the same time completely sidesteps the entire post you are replying to. 

The Light all of us are working towards is knowledge, understanding, wisdom, enlightenment. While an actual physical or metaphysical manifestation of the Light would be pretty wizard, it is not what our Craft degrees are actually helping us to achieve. 

I'm not saying there is no place for the metaphysical in Freemasonry, I'm a student of practical alchemy, but I am not going to tell my Brothers they are wrong because they dont see true alchemical teachings in every part of Freemasonry. 

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## Winter

JamestheJust said:


> >Do you recognize that Freemasonry is a system of morality taught by allegory?
> 
> This is an interesting question.
> 
> Albert Mackey writes in The Symbolism of Freemasonry,  Chapter 1:  _The definition of Freemasonry that it is "a *science of morality*, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols," has been so often quoted, that, were it not for its beauty, it would become wearisome.
> _
> Note that he says that it is a Science of Morality rather than a System.  The difference of course is that a science is based upon experiment and observation.
> 
> A more commonly recognised science of morality is Neurolinguistic Programming - a science popular amongst sales staff as a means of manipulating the actions of customers.
> 
> Of course a science of morality can be quite destructive in the wrong hands - hence the need to conceal it behind allegory.
> 
> If it were only a system of morality it would surely be easier to teach by plain speaking.  It  is certainly peculiar to veil a system of morality from those that ought to practice it.
> 
> I suspect that with the loss of knowledge of Masonic Science it was easier to disguise the loss by referring to a system of morality.



Sure, focus on the use of one word instead of the actual argument. Science and System are used throughout Freemasonry. Focusing on this was an easy out. 

Your constant assertion that nobody does Masonic science right except you is tired. I'm not even going to entertain the rest of the wrongheaded thought in your post.  The discussion needs to move back to the actual topic of one day classes. 

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## David612

It’s worth noting that Mackey, pike, wilmshurst or any number of Masonic writers are only writing from their understanding and arnt an authority on the craft as a whole, no one can profess to speak for freemasonry in its entirety, moreover I’m not convinced the word “science” carries the meaning you attach to it in a Masonic context. 
However there are many viewpoints and to tell people they are wrong based on your limited experience is quite short sighted.


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## Brother JC

Valid points, David. Mackey, Pike, and Wilmshurst rarely agree with each other! (FWIW I’ll take Wilmshurst over the others any day.)


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## David612

Brother JC said:


> Valid points, David. Mackey, Pike, and Wilmshurst rarely agree with each other! (FWIW I’ll take Wilmshurst over the others any day.)


I’m inclined to agree with you on Wilmshurst


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