# Thelema



## A7V (Aug 11, 2009)

***Disclaimer***
This post is highly esoteric and involves things that many of you will find go against your own personal beliefs.   Please do not attack me, I am just thinking aloud here if you will, and invite any Brother that has a constructive opinion to think with me.  

I only feel the need to place this here due issues in the past when I have discussed other areas of esoterica such as Rosicrucians and the like.
*** ***


I have been doing some research into Thelema lately and today was curious about it's place with Freemasonry.

Thelema is a philosophy or religion based on the dictum, "Do what thou Wilt" as presented in Aleister Crowley's Book of the Law.

Despite the frequent assumption that "Do what thou Wilt" is solely an exhortation to hedonism or licentiousness, Thelema as it was formulated by Crowley is a path of spiritual development based on seeking and putting into practice one's True Will, or destiny, the soul's Will rather than the ego's desires.   If you think about it, this is exactly what we are trying to do when we try to become that perfect ashlar!  The ego's desires, are those superfluous edges.

This shouldn't come as a shock really considering that Crowley was a "Freemason" along the lines of the Memphis-Misraim rites which are considered irregular and clandestine, but have a lot of similarities with our own degree work.

Thelema basically consists of three seperate bodies the Argenteum Astrum (extremely exclusive), the Ordo Templi Orientis (society) and the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica (religious arm).

Not being a member, I am not sure but have gleaned from research that one does not have to be a member of Ordo Templi Orientis to be a member of the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica.  It is run like any other church, there is no initiations but they do perform baptisms.   To be a member of Argenteum Astrum one must be a member of Ordo Templi Orientis and show a deep understanding of the esoteric and also have shown a strong ability in the realms of magick.

Ordo Templi Orientis is a society of men and women that has degrees and an initiation.   They have lodges and meet just as we do.  

Now, I am not sure OTO would allow a member to also become a Freemason... but if they did that is where my questions come in.


If a candidate was a member of Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica, would he be allowed to have a copy of Aleister Crowley's Book of the Law on the altar? 

I personally couldn't see a reason not to allow it but it would surely be strange and I would travel to be there.

Just running it over in my mind since Thelema is both a religion and a society.   They do believe in a God.. but would they pass an investigation?   From what I hear most investigation committees don't do that good of a job and does the committee even get into stuff like being a member of Thelema?   How would an investigation committee act, most Brothers have never heard of Thelema and OTO...

Going into it even deeper Thelema could almost be considered clandestine Freemasonry, would we require them to leave OTO?  Even if it is the religion, of the candidate?

As more and more younger people who are interested in the esoteric groups that are available and the quest for Light, I imagine we will see candidate that are members of groups like Thelema and AMORC, do we have people who are knowledgeable in the areas to calm other Brothers when it is time to vote, or knowledgeable to inform other Brothers that a candidate is part of a group that we should not let into our organization.   

It just seems like we should have someone at GL that studies this stuff and reports on it somehow.

I am sure there is a lot more running around in my head about this but for now that is all I can really think of..


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## A7V (Aug 11, 2009)

I was just reading the US Grand Lodge of OTO site and they state

O.T.O. membership is not incompatible with membership in most Masonic organizations.

I wonder if the most they mean are the Memphis and Misraim rites or Co-Masonry that we here would consider irregular and clandestine.


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## Wingnut (Aug 11, 2009)

I think all the other aside it comes down to:

a believe in Supreme Being
immortality of the soul

I think like most things, we would have to take the mans word for the above, and if given treat them like any other candidate.


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## A7V (Aug 11, 2009)

Wingnut said:


> I think all the other aside it comes down to:
> 
> a believe in Supreme Being
> immortality of the soul
> ...



I agree, but when a man is a member of an organization like this, if you have knowledge of the organization you wouldn't want that person in the Lodge.   

I know myself that I would greatly question the motives of a member of the O.T.O in petitioning,  I also doubt they would let it be openly known they are O.T.O but there are things to look for...

This is all hypothetical of course and the OTO is such a small group the chances of any one here actually running into this is extremely small.


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## Sirius (Aug 11, 2009)

Great Post.

I don't see this as being incompatible with Masonry based on Masonic Law. None of the mentioned organizations claim any Masonic 'territory'. Yes they use a system of  initiation , but this doesn't make them some clandestine form of Masonry. 

As for investigations, I've never asked a petitioner or heard a petitioner asked what his religion is. In fact I that would be inappropriate. The belief in a Supreme Being ,as understood by the individual, is necessary , in respect to religion.


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## JTM (Aug 11, 2009)

sounds like they are what I would consider Deists


i'd also welcome them into lodge.

great post, A7V


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## A7V (Aug 11, 2009)

Honestly, the thing that bothers me the most, and this is just a personal moral issue is the fact they practice sex magick. 

It has a basis in the tantra's of Indian mysticism but still just freaks me out.

Here is directly from Crowley what you should be learning at the higher degrees.

    * VIIIÂ°: masturbatory or autosexual magical techniques were taught, referred as the Lesser Work of Sol
    * IXÂ°: heterosexual magical techniques were taught
    * XIÂ°: anal intercourse techniques as sexual and magical were taught


Crowley added these after he became head of the order.

I am not sure if the OTO performs what is called "white' sex magick which is sex without orgasm or ejaculation....  Thus, instead of the sexual energy being released in a spasm, this energy undergoes sexual transmutation via willpower and the sacrifice of desire..

Too each his own I guess.


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## JTM (Aug 11, 2009)

lol... for me, as long as they practice that at home and not in lodge, i'll be fine.


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## Sirius (Aug 11, 2009)

JTM said:


> lol... for me, as long as they practice that at home and not in lodge, I'll be fine.



Agreed.


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## Sirius (Aug 11, 2009)

Wingnut, made this post http://www.masonsoftexas.com/interpreting-masonic-law/2220-book-upon-altar.html

Which leads me to think, yes The Book of the Law could be used in the degree in the way described in Grand Lodge law.


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## TCShelton (Aug 11, 2009)

I could definitely dig that.  A man with that kind of knowledge would be welcomed by me.


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## Wingnut (Aug 11, 2009)

TCShelton said:


> A man with that kind of knowledge would be welcomed by me.



Major overshare violation!  15 Yrd penalty and loss of down


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## owls84 (Aug 12, 2009)

I would like to investigate the org a little more as an investigator but as far as not allowing them to join. All I am to ask is belief in god, immortality of the soul, and  a belief in the holy scriptures. Now as far as the sex acts, I would have a tough time with this as well, I would have to learn more. I really don't know on this one, I guess it boils down to is this person a good person at heart and does he truely want to better him self and help others? If so who am I to tell him he is wrong. I mean there are a lot of different religions out there and I am by no way the tell them they are wrong. Good post Brother.


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## Wingnut (Aug 12, 2009)

OK since the taboo subject has been breached... time to lock an load!

If sex practices could be used as a reason to not let a man in, what is everyones thougths on homosexual Masons?  Is this an area that raises the same ignorance as does race?


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## A7V (Aug 12, 2009)

Wingnut said:


> OK since the taboo subject has been breached... time to lock an load!
> 
> If sex practices could be used as a reason to not let a man in, what is everyones thougths on homosexual Masons?  Is this an area that raises the same ignorance as does race?




Honestly, 

I don't have a problem with it.   I have more issues with the people that perform sex magick than I do with a practicing homosexual.


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## owls84 (Aug 12, 2009)

No problem, I am not one to cast a stone. No sin is worse than another and I know I sin who am I to say that is worse than mine. I am not perfect so I will not require someone else to be. I just lok for men that have a good heart and want to better themselves. It is not for me to judge.


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## Wingnut (Aug 12, 2009)

owls84 said:


> No problem, I am not one to cast a stone. No sin is worse than another and I know I sin who am I to say that is worse than mine. I am not perfect so I will not require someone else to be. I just lok for men that have a good heart and want to better themselves. It is not for me to judge.



Good answer, I expected that response from someone that has fought the racism issue also!


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## TCShelton (Aug 12, 2009)

I have no problems with homosexuals being Masons either.  That is really nobody's business but theirs.  There is no "are you gay?" block on the petition to my knowledge.


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## JTM (Aug 12, 2009)

TCShelton said:


> I have no problems with homosexuals being Masons either.  That is really nobody's business but theirs.  There is no "are you gay?" block on the petition to my knowledge.



can you really become a better man if you are the wife of another man?

that may sound like an asshole comment, but it's a genuine question.  honestly, can you?  it got me thinking what i thought about it.

i've had my thoughts about a brother or two that i've met, and at the time, i didn't really have a problem with it.


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## TCShelton (Aug 12, 2009)

JTM said:


> i've had my thoughts about a brother or two that i've met, and at the time, i didn't really have a problem with it.



I've had my thoughts confirmed about a Brother or two, and they bring quite a bit to the table.  At the end of the day, it is a sexual preference, a little more extreme than whether you prefer blondes or brunettes.  I don't see how an attraction has anything to do with being a better man, be that the "husband" or "wife" of the party.


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## Sirius (Aug 12, 2009)

JTM said:


> can you really become a better man if you are the wife of another man?
> 
> that may sound like an asshole comment, but it's a genuine question.  honestly, can you?  it got me thinking what i thought about it.
> 
> i've had my thoughts about a brother or two that i've met, and at the time, i didn't really have a problem with it.



Yes. All relationships are the same in that all relationships are different. A man who is inclined to work to be a better man will do so , no matter what. I think the relationship is the bigger aspect than the sex organs of the individuals. How does it go, as iron sharpens iron...

What does being a 'wife' mean anyway? In today society woman are socially independent and just a active as men. So the term really means a female who lives in a state of marriage with a man. 

As individuals we are more complicated than  the summation of various demographics (eg. straight white baptist man from East Texas).  It's the character that counts.


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## JTM (Aug 12, 2009)

me and my backwoods way of thinking, men and women are designed and evolved for specific purposes.  a grandmother has a specific purpose (look at the tribal peoples... they still have that purpose).  have we already evolved past those natural inclinations so much that we can shirk them without losing opportunity costs?

me and my 24 year old backwoods mouth, of course.  

that being said, i'm still looking to be a stay at home dad, so if you know any busy, young, women professionals around the college station area, let me know.


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## Sirius (Aug 12, 2009)

JTM said:


> men and women are designed and evolved for specific purposes.  a grandmother has a specific purpose (look at the tribal peoples... they still have that purpose).  have we already evolved past those natural inclinations so much that we can shirk them without losing opportunity costs?



I don't think the baby necessarily goes out with the bath water. Just because one aspect is different doesn't make all of them different. Grandmothers are still important. And so are aunts, uncles, and cousins. What makes you think it changes the whole family dynamic?


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## JTM (Aug 12, 2009)

oh, i'm just saying that grandmother's are perfectly suited for helping take care of kids.  they have an important role to play in family life.

as does everyone else.  i wasn't saying grandmothers were useless.  good lord, she'd know and probably shoot me.


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## TCShelton (Aug 12, 2009)

My grandmother is evil.


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## Wingnut (Aug 12, 2009)

JTM said:


> that being said, i'm still looking to be a stay at home dad, so if you know any busy, young, *women professionals* around the college station area, let me know.



I believe there are a few down at the Chicken now and then...


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## rhitland (Aug 12, 2009)

The book of Law could absolutley be placed upon the altar, it might cause a rucuss but what change does not.
As far as gay men in the Lodge HELL YES we let them in without question their experience will make us better men just like everybody elses and that is the name of the game in Masonry. For any Mason to turn his back to light b/c of sexual prefrence is to turn his back to the teachings of Masonry all together. One can have their own opinion on the matter even base that opinion on religious writtings but in the end Love is Love and people are people and if someone wants to better themselves than Masonrry will always have a place for them. 

I had never heard of Thelma by the way thanks for the info as I am a huge Alister Crowley fan.


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## Traveling Man (Aug 13, 2009)

Wingnut said:


> OK since the taboo subject has been breached... time to lock an load!
> 
> If sex practices could be used as a reason to not let a man in, what is everyones thougths on homosexual Masons? Is this an area that raises the same ignorance as does race?


 
Does this mean we will have to change the ob? ROFL. 

Note: There's a lot more to read about Thelema, read on dear brethern...


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## dhouseholder (Aug 28, 2009)

A7V said:


> This is all hypothetical of course and the OTO is such a small group the chances of any one here actually running into this is extremely small.


 Not as small as you think.



A7V said:


> Honestly, the thing that bothers me the most, and this is just a personal moral issue is the fact they practice sex magick.


 This is a slippery slope here. What most people think when they see this is, "Orgiastic Rites", or "Orgy at Bob's house, bring the Prayer Book!" when I can tell you this is not the case, you kind of have to look at this in context.

Let us look at the big picture first. To Thelemites, each person has what is known as a Holy Guardian Angel. This Angel is their link between their deepest self and the Divine. The Great Work of most Thelemites is obtaining a conversation with this link usually through the use of meditation, ceremony, and ritual. When all three of these performed together, it is loosely known as magick (notice the "k" to differentiate that between stage magic). Now, this Knowledge and Conversation with your Holy Guardian Angel is necessary for fulfilling one's True Will. (Thelema is Greek for Will) Once this has been achieved, you have made a solid connection with the Divine and extinguished your internal conflicts, sort of like the Buddhist Nirvana. Thelema does nothing to define God or the nature thereof, but instead admonishes one to define that for yourself, not only identify it but reach for it and grasp it.

Now, where does the sex come in? Well it serves two purposes. 

First, as you could imagine, obtaining the Knowledge and Conversation with your HGA is pretty difficult. The loss of connection with your material self achieved before and during orgasm is a pretty pure state, it is then when your mind is empty, focused, and purposed and (as I see it) closer to the divine spark that is in us all. If you have a hard time believing this, next time you are "going at it", as you are focusing on the moment, notice that your internal dialogue is shut off. Then start thinking about mundane activities like your drive to work or what you need to get at the grocery store and notice the switch from that focused state to a distracted state.  (Which, as stated by someone who posted above, generally a Tantric concept)
Once a Thelemite has cultivated, or at least experienced, this shift, they could probably do it outside of the bedroom and employ it in their "prayers". 

Secondly, it serves as an allegory, among other things, for union, which is something all Thelemites strive towards. You know, uniting the polar principles of Male/Female. Now, interestingly enough, there was a big issue over homosexuality and whether or not it could serve as proper allegory for the union of the Self and the Divine. I do not know for sure if this issue was ever resolved, but I know that there were vocal opinions from both sides.

Now, I would like to state that I do not consider myself a Thelemite.

That being said, I do think that any Brother interested in the esoteric portions of our Craft should really do himself a favor and study these paradigms, if for no reason other than so they could enlighten other brothers on internet forums! :biggrin:

Indecently, there is a very large and active OTO in Austin...
http://www.scarletwoman.org/

... and University of Texas' Ransom Center has quite a collection of Crowley artifacts.
http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/research/fa/lfcrowley.html
http://research.hrc.utexas.edu:8080/hrcxtf/view?docId=ead/00144.xml


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## RedTemplar (Aug 28, 2009)

In all the years with my Thelma, I can't recall her ever praying during our "get togethers", but, on at least one or two occasions  I have heard her speak in tongues. Now, as a Baptist, is that possible or has she been fooling me all this time?


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