# Women in masonry



## zouzoum

Why women are not permitted in mainstream lodges ? 
Do you think its because we are keeping the tradition that within the stonemasons guilds there were no women ? Though many amendments were made in the modern masonry but not in gender.
Or is it something deeper than that related to cabala, alchemy ,etc? Maybe esoteric masons can explain ?


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## Ressam

zouzoum said:


> Why women are not permitted in mainstream lodges ?
> Do you think its because we are keeping the tradition that within the stonemasons guilds there were no women ? Though many amendments were made in the modern masonry but not in gender.
> Or is it something deeper than that related to cabala, alchemy ,etc? Maybe esoteric masons can explain ?



Hello.
As a *non-mason*, I can assume that:
*Essence* of women(*meaning of The Being* on The Earth) is a lil' bit different.
They cannot: keep secrets, they're more addicted to mammon(money), some call them "devils jar",
some say "Kinder, Küche, Kirche", etc. etc. etc...

And the importance is that also: It's written in the* Anderson's Constitution:* "No women".


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## Ressam

JamestheJust said:


> The structure of Masonic temples and ritual has a close relationship to that of Mithraism, the members of which apparently were exclusively male - primarily being soldiers.
> 
> Further, when Masonry was reformulated in 1717, married women were the legal dependents of their husbands and arguably not free.
> 
> Thus the male-orientation of Freemasonry could be an artifact of history.
> 
> Examination of the nature of the FPoF may indicate that an error has occurred in the exclusion of women.



James!
More "creatively", please!  More "funny".


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## CLewey44

zouzoum said:


> Why women are not permitted in mainstream lodges ?
> Do you think its because we are keeping the tradition that within the stonemasons guilds there were no women ? Though many amendments were made in the modern masonry but not in gender.
> Or is it something deeper than that related to cabala, alchemy ,etc? Maybe esoteric masons can explain ?



I would venture to say that it's something that simply would never get passed in a vote. Most men treat their lodge time as their on personal time away from their spouse or girlfriend. Their one spot where they can go and just be with guys. However, what Ressamabi was saying couldn't be further from the truth. I'd even assume he is just being sarcastic maybe? Also, guys act different when women are around. That doesn't mean guys misbehave more around other men, but it would definitely change the vibe of the room if it were half full of women.


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## dfreybur

zouzoum said:


> Or is it something deeper than that related to cabala, alchemy ,etc? Maybe esoteric masons can explain ?



There are spiritual reasons for having groups of only men, groups of only women, groups of both genders.  Having all three types is a form of balance.

I don't know enough Kabala or alchemy to say why.  The reasons for groups by gender don't apply to chakra activations which appear in the signs.  So I'm not sure if the balance issue comes from any specific school.


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## Ressam

CLewey44 said:


> However, what Ressamabi was saying couldn't be further from the truth. I'd even assume he is just being sarcastic maybe?



No sarcasm, Sir.
I truly think that -- Freemasonry & other spiritual "exercises" are not for women.
I wanna add:
of course, that's strictly -- "my personal IMHO"!
Women are -- very precious creations in this World!(Probably Most Beautiful).
And, of course, *GAOTU Loves Equally* men&women!
I only mean about "functions"(men&women).


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## Akiles

As far as I know, the reason is a landmark. That's all.

But, if you want to know why exist that landmark, then you have to be able to understand the reality of the XVIII century in England, and specifically in the operative masonry....To be free, you had to have a job, and to have a masonry job, in that time you have to be a man...every woman at that time was a man's dependant (his father, his brother, his uncle, his husband....). So nobody at that time thought that a woman could be free....

Ok, them, why don't you change it? Because other landmark, and because the masonry is tradition, and you accept to respect that tradition at the moment you cross the door of the lodge....

Sorry for my English, I appreciate every correction.


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## MarkR

One day, a female student was in my office at the university.  She asked about the Masonic stuff displayed there.  After I explained Masonry for a bit, she asked why women weren't permitted to join.  I asked her "do you and your female friends act differently when guys are around compared to when they're not?"  She immediately said yes.  I said "it's the same with guys.  Bringing in women would change the entire "vibe" of Freemasonry.  I'm not saying it would necessarily be bad, but it wouldn't be the same."  She said "that makes perfect sense."


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## coachn

zouzoum said:


> Why women are not permitted in mainstream lodges ?


Because the membership decided about 300 years ago to create and support this rule.  It can't get any plainer or simpler than this.


zouzoum said:


> Do you think its because we are keeping the tradition that within the stonemasons guilds there were no women ?


No.  That is not a tradition and it never was one.  It's made up to support and justify what we have today.  However, we are not a continuation of those guilds.  We never were.  That is lore, not fact.

Moreover, we are a continuation of the theatrical societies of medieval times when most all guilds put on "mystery plays" (The word "mystery" at that time meant "occupation" when applied to this term).  They did not permit women not because they didn't want them to participate but due to society norms and more especially the laws of the time proscribing woman from participating as actors in theatrical productions.  In other words, it was illegal to have them involved.

If you think about it, if we are to continue doing the theater that we do and remain true to the theater norms of the time, no woman would be allowed in what we do.

That being said, the tradition is outdated.  Times have changed.  But men's mentalities and needs to be in men's groups are not governed by the laws of man.  They are governed by a strong psychological need to be away from female influences when communing with other men, even if all that they are participating in is mind-numbing business meetings.

The organization fills that need for some.


zouzoum said:


> Though many amendments were made in the modern masonry but not in gender.


As is should be.  We have a men's society and, as was pointed out, we like it that way for a multitude of reasons; all personal to men folk.


zouzoum said:


> Or is it something deeper than that related to cabala, alchemy ,etc?


Nah.  You can tunnel down  a thousand rabbit holes of fantasy and rationalized woowoo but the central fact is simple:  _The membership wants a place to hang with only their male homies._


zouzoum said:


> Maybe esoteric masons can explain ?


They could, but it would not help to clarify the male only picture by throwing rubbish upon it.


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## dfreybur

Akiles said:


> Ok, them, why don't you change it?



The simplest answer I know is this one -

It has been tried.  There are CoMason jurisdictions and female only jurisdictions.  The total population of all male only jurisdictions is well over a hundred times the population of all jurisdictions that are not male only.

The members didn't just vote by ballot.  They voted with their feet and the results are so overwhelming the jurisdictions that admit women are minuscule.

I'm glad that jurisdictions exist that admit women.  There is strength in diversity and maybe someday over the rainbow that particular type of diversity will be important.  In today's world, the populations of the jurisdictions tell the tale as completely as I need.  A hundred to one or more.


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## Ripcord22A

coachn said:


> Nah.  You can tunnel down  a thousand rabbit holes of fantasy and rationalized woowoo but the central fact is simple:  _The membership wants a place to hang with only their male homies._


 
Coach, You WIN THE INTERNET today! that is the greatest quote EVER!!


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## Ripcord22A

JamestheJust said:


> Does the GAOTU think that Masonry is so important that it should be restricted to men?
> 
> Or does the GAOTU think that Masonry is so unimportant that it does not matter that it is restricted to men?
> 
> I have yet to decide.


 
Let me help you....Its neither!  The GAotU doesnt bother him/herself with what we find important.  Masonry dang sure aint even onthe GAotU radar!@


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## Ripcord22A

deleted...dup post


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## hanzosbm

Wow, there's a lot of "facts" being thrown around in here. 

One of Freemasonry's most important aspects is that it is a single organization stretched across the world.  There are of course slight differences, but at some point, a line had to be drawn to determine what it meant to be Freemasons.  In other words, who was and wasn't.  This was done by way of recognition and was based on certain landmarks that MUST be followed in order to be recognized.  In other words, they are the framework that makes up Freemasonry and are inflexible.  Without them, it would be possible for the organization to drift off course so far as to be unrecognizable. 
American Masons could see a comparison with the Bill of Rights; like them or not, they are the foundation of our country and cannot simply be changed without acknowledging that the original organization is no more. 
So, why no women?  Because when the landmarks were being created, someone said no women, and to change that would mean that we were no longer falling within the framework of Freemasonry.  Some have done this, and they are not recognized by mainstream Freemasonry.


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## coachn

hanzosbm said:


> Wow, there's a lot of "facts" being thrown around in here.


Including this one:

*"One of Freemasonry's most important aspects is that it is a single organization stretched across the world."*​
This is not a fact.


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## hanzosbm

coachn said:


> Including this one:
> 
> *"One of Freemasonry's most important aspects is that it is a single organization stretched across the world."*​
> This is not a fact.


So...are you saying that Freemasonry is not a single organization or that it isn't stretched across the world, or that it isn't important?


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## Ripcord22A

hanzosbm said:


> So...are you saying that Freemasonry is not a single organization or that it isn't stretched across the world, or that it isn't important?


Im saying its all 3 of those things that arent a fact.  We are not a single organization.  There are almost 100 legitimate GLs(organizations) in the USA alone.  Not to mention all the spurrious GLs.  Also Freemasonry is not streated all over the globe.  Also I would say if your statement was true that being a single Org streatched accross the globe isnt one of our most important aspects

BUT I understand the point you were trying to make!!


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## hanzosbm

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Im saying its all 3 of those things that arent a fact.  We are not a single organization.  There are almost 100 legitimate GLs(organizations) in the USA alone.


And yet, you call them all Freemasonry.  You can travel among those GLs in a way that non-Masons cannot.  Why?  Because it is one organization.  Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because it can be divided up that it means it is not one organization.  You're in the military.  Your platoon is an organization.  Your company is an organization.  Your battalion is an organization.  It might be made up of multiple different pieces, but it all falls under an overarching umbrella.  Mainstream Freemasonry is the same thing.  It is one organization, made up of many smaller units.  What defines it as an organization and determines which are members and which are not are the landmarks.


jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Also Freemasonry is not streated all over the globe.


If you mean that Freemasonry is not in every country, that's true.  But that is not what I meant.  I meant (as I said) that it is stretched ACROSS the world, which it is. 


jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Also I would say if your statement was true that being a single Org streatched accross the globe isnt one of our most important aspects


I suppose that this COULD be considered opinion, but considering that it is part of the very first line of the Tyler's oath, I'd say it's pretty important.


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## coachn

hanzosbm said:


> So...are you saying that *Freemasonry is not a single organization* or that it isn't stretched across the world, or that it isn't important?


I am saying your previous statement: *"One of Freemasonry's most important aspects is that it is a single organization stretched across the world"..* is not a fact. 

_*It is not a single organization*_.  Freemasonry is a label placed upon many individual organizations. These are separate organizations that recognize and cooperate with each other.

The rest of your question is rubbish.


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## hanzosbm

coachn said:


> _*It is not a single organization*_.  Freemasonry is a label placed upon many individual organizations. These are separate organizations that recognize and cooperate with each other.


or·gan·i·za·tion
ˌôrɡənəˈzāSH(ə)n/
_noun_
noun: *organization*; plural noun: *organizations*; noun: *organisation*; plural noun: *organisations*

*1*.
an organized body of people with a particular purpose, especially a business, society, association, etc.
"a research organization"
*2*.
the action of organizing something.
"the organization of conferences and seminars"
"the organization of conferences"

the structure or arrangement of related or connected items.


"Separate organizations that recognize and cooperate with each other".  "Arrangement of related or connected items".  As I stated before, different organizations often make up a larger organization, such as with Freemasonry.


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## Ripcord22A

hanzosbm said:


> And yet, you call them all Freemasonry.  You can travel among those GLs in a way that non-Masons cannot.  Why?  Because it is one organization.  Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because it can be divided up that it means it is not one organization.  You're in the military.  Your platoon is an organization.  Your company is an organization.  Your battalion is an organization.  It might be made up of multiple different pieces, but it all falls under an overarching umbrella.  Mainstream Freemasonry is the same thing.  It is one organization, made up of many smaller units.  What defines it as an organization and determines which are members and which are not are the landmarks.


 
Your example is flawed.  each indv GL would be the ARMY and the subordinate lodges the BDE and the concordinate bodies the BN and the members the companies..ect.  but to place that example on Freemasonry as a whole is flawed and heres why.  TN doesnt accept gays but NM does.  TN subordinate lodges cannot knowling innitate a gay man.  NM can.  there is nothing over TN GL to tell them they are wrong.  If TN and NM were military units the ARMY would make that decision and then DoD would look at it, and if necessary then congress, then POTUS then SCoUSA.  no such checks and balances exist in Freemasonry.  As Coach said bellow it is a label placed upon many individual organizations


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## Ressam

Gentlemen.
But if it'll be assumed that:
Anderson Constitution or Mackey's Landmarks are -- *documents.*
And, every document can be corrected, for example -- even U.S. Constitution has been revised & there have been made* amendments* by U.S. Congress.
Question: is it possible, to make, for example -- some kind of *Referendum, *between all Freemasons, and allow women membership?


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## Ressam

IMHO, the best solution to solve this "Women Membership" problem is to ask GAOTU, what He Desires about that.
But how? Cause every Freemason has it's own Deity, religion...


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## hanzosbm

Not all organizations have an overarching hierarchy.  Let's say that you, Coach, and myself form an organization called the Society of Landmarks.  The purpose of our organization is to meet and discuss the historical landmarks, in all their facets.  We decide that there is no leader and that each of us gets an equal vote.  No one is subordinate, there is no leader.  Does that mean that we wouldn't still be an organization?


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## coachn

hanzosbm said:


> Well, having read your writings, I'd say that you'd be the authority on rubbish.


<sigh> It's clear that your ego got hurt enough to have started using backhanded compliments.  I hope that such behavior is truly below your norm.  You also do not have to write questions projecting absurdity to get your point across.  

It was clear what I said. 

*"It is not a single organization*. Freemasonry is a label placed upon many individual organizations. These are separate organizations that recognize and cooperate with each other."​
You didn't have to write what you did in response.  Doing so created rubbish and I hope that such production is also below your norm.

You do not have to agree with how I view Freemasonic organizational structures.  And I do not have to agree with you.  I do not see Freemasonry as one organization, _no matter how you choose to define it_. 

Freemasonry differs from one organization to another.  It is not the same everywhere.  We may sometimes talk about it as if it were one, but when we do, this behavior inevitably leads to problems down the road when assumptions are made and feelings get hurt.  

Your last response to me is a classic example of this. I hope you get over it soon.


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## coachn

hanzosbm said:


> Not all organizations have an overarching hierarchy.  Let's say that you, Coach, and myself form an organization called the Society of Landmarks.  The purpose of our organization is to meet and discuss the historical landmarks, in all their facets.  We decide that there is no leader and that each of us gets an equal vote.  No one is subordinate, there is no leader.  Does that mean that we wouldn't still be an organization?



Your example is not in line with Freemasonic structures and practices.  Each Grand Lodge is a stand alone franchise organization that cooperates with others within specific agreed upon standards.   

Let's say that we use your same argument and apply it upon Christianity, socialism, communism and Zen.  Organizations can practice each.  They can espouse each.  They can align with what each denotes.  They can collect money for each.  They can bring members in using each name.  That does not mean that any one of the labels named is an organization.

Neither is Freemasonry.  Organizations can practice it;  Espouse it;  Align with it;  Collect money for it;  Bring members in using its name.  That does not mean that IT is an organization.


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## hanzosbm

coachn said:


> <sigh> It's clear that your ego got hurt enough to have started using backhanded compliments.  I hope that such behavior is truly below your norm.  You also do not have to write questions projecting absurdity to get your point across.
> 
> It was clear what I said.
> 
> *"It is not a single organization*. Freemasonry is a label placed upon many individual organizations. These are separate organizations that recognize and cooperate with each other."​
> You didn't have to write what you did in response.  Doing so created rubbish and I hope that such production is also below your norm.
> 
> You do not have to agree with how I view Freemasonic organizational structures.  And I do not have to agree with you.  I do not see Freemasonry as one organization, _no matter how you choose to define it_.
> 
> Freemasonry differs from one organization to another.  It is not the same everywhere.  We may sometimes talk about it as if it were one, but when we do, this behavior inevitably leads to problems down the road when assumptions are made and feelings get hurt.
> 
> Your last response to me is a classic example of this. I hope you get over it soon.


You're right, it is below me, which is why I deleted it almost immediately.  I should've held my tongue initially.


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## dfreybur

hanzosbm said:


> And yet, you call them all Freemasonry.  You can travel among those GLs in a way that non-Masons cannot.  Why?  Because it is one organization.



Right.  Normally we think the organizational aspect ends at the GL level and that's that.  Lodges are Organizations of Masons with a hierarchy of officers.  Grand Lodges are Organizations of lodges with a hierarchy of lodges.

We like to think that beyond that level every jurisdiction is sovereign so that's where the organization ends.  There is still plenty of organization beyond the GL level.  It's just that none of those higher levels of organization have the same sort of authority.  That's why I switched from upper case Organization to lower case organization.

http://www.cgmna.org/ http://www.conferenceofgrandmasterspha.org/home.asp

The edges of the organization are ragged indeed.  It gets hard to say who is and who isn't clandestine even though it tends to be easy to look up.  It gets hard to say who is and who isn't regular as every GL has its own list of recognized GLs and the lists end up very different as the distance increases.

Because the ritual is so similar I could gain entry into all sorts of lodges who would welcome me if I showed up, yet I won't because I know about recognition issues.

Every time I relocate to a new geography, keep my old membership, affiliate with another GL my list of possible visits shrinks.  I should now look in 3 lists to see if I can visit.


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## hanzosbm

dfreybur said:


> Every time I relocate to a new geography, keep my old membership, affiliate with another GL my list of possible visits shrinks.  I should now look in 3 lists to see if I can visit.



Yeah, that has been interesting for me as well.  CA's recognition issues as of late are well known.  KY recognizes Prince Hall but doesn't have visitation.  I'm just waiting for the day when I visit a Nevada lodge with a Prince Hall Mason from Pennsylvania, a mainstream GA Mason, and an openly gay Mason from Oregon.  I think everyone's heads will explode.


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## coachn

hanzosbm said:


> Yeah, that has been interesting for me as well.  CA's recognition issues as of late are well known.  KY recognizes Prince Hall but doesn't have visitation.  I'm just waiting for the day when I visit a Nevada lodge with a Prince Hall Mason from Pennsylvania, a mainstream GA Mason, and an openly gay Mason from Oregon.  I think everyone's heads will explode.


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## dfreybur

hanzosbm said:


> Yeah, that has been interesting for me as well.  CA's recognition issues as of late are well known.  KY recognizes Prince Hall but doesn't have visitation.  I'm just waiting for the day when I visit a Nevada lodge with a Prince Hall Mason from Pennsylvania, a mainstream GA Mason, and an openly gay Mason from Oregon.  I think everyone's heads will explode.



Religious diversity is less visible.  We were walking from the lodge room to the dining hall in my mother lodge.  An elderly Brother was proud of the religious diversity in our lodge.  Many types of Protestant, Catholics, Orthodox, Jews.  I looked across the group and smiled.  The elderly Brother had no idea.  We don't discuss religion in lodge so it isn't obvious how wide the diversity really is.  In that group there were members of at least 2 non-JCI religions that our elderly Brother had likely never heard of.  A Muslim Brother had ducked out of the meeting early to help cook the meal.  A Buddhist regular wasn't there that week.  And that doesn't even start on the diversity if you included other lodges in the district.

Visible or not we swim in diversity whether we know it or not.


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## Ripcord22A

Wow

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


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## MarkR

coachn said:


> However, we are not a continuation of those guilds.  We never were.  That is lore, not fact.


How, then, do you explain The Lodge of Edinburgh #1 (Mary's Chapel) which has its minutes unbroken since 1599?  They were then entirely operative.  They are now entirely speculative.  The minutes document the transition.


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## coachn

MarkR said:


> How, then, do you explain The Lodge of Edinburgh #1 (Mary's Chapel) which has its minutes unbroken since 1599?  They were then entirely operative.  They are now entirely speculative.  The minutes document the transition.


Yes.  They were entirely operative.  Yes, at some point though they changed their business model, transitioning:

1) from working on stone and selling their stonecraft skills and products
2) to selling membership to men to experience total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater that was scripted to use the lexicon, symbols and fabricated lore of stoneworkers to put on morality plays for private patrons​
They are not now speculative however.  Speculative denotes being a speculative equivalent of an operative version.  Just because a stonecraft lodge kept minutes since their beginning and it showed that they transitioned their business model, doesn't mean that they are continuing what they did from their beginning; they are not.  No matter what illusion members who interpret their minutes want to have you buy into, calling a sausage an orange doesn't make what you have an orange; it's still a sausage.

From a wider view, the evidence is clear.  We are not a continuation of what stonecrafts did prior to 1717 (or what they did after that either!)  We are not even a speculative version of operative masonry.  What they (stonecraft lodges) did (stonework for fee) and what we (Freemasons) do (total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater with a moral purpose for fee) are two entirely different activities.

The practices they had and the practices we modern day members have are not different versions (Op. v Spec.) of each other.  The two are not even close.

The fantasy is fun and quite enjoyable and participation does bring rewards, but the reality of our practices is far from the romantic dogma provided.

Thanks for asking Bro. Mark!


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## Bloke

coachn said:


> .......What they (stonecraft lodges) did (stonework for fee) and what we (Freemasons) do (total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater with a moral purpose for fee) are two entirely different activities.... The two are not even close.The fantasy is fun and quite enjoyable and participation does bring rewards, but the reality of our practices is far from the romantic dogma provided.



Is that really all its been for you Coach ? Then why do you write books beyond how to improve ones acting skills ?

For me, Speculative Freemasonry might start with being a candidate in a quasi reality play, but that's only the start.


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## coachn

Bloke said:


> Is that really all its been for your Coach ?


Great question!  It has not been that way at first.  However, once I realized the reality of what Freemasonic organizations are actually doing, it explained a lot of the absolutely unnecessary confusion, insanity and drama.

Now I engage in what the society offers with a much stronger foundational understanding of what it is truly trying to accomplish.  I am not so easily sucked into the unnecessary confusion, insanity and drama.


Bloke said:


> Then why do you write books beyond how to improve ones acting skills ?


Ah!  You've taken offense to the Light I have shared.  Well understood.  Let's get into it.

Ritual (our privatized morality plays) is filled with allusions to what we can do to improve ourselves.  I write books, memes, articles and produce videos to point out this fact and stress that it is not enough to have a road map; one must understand the road map, what it points to, what it offers us, and then travel its territories!

Yes.  If you're going to just memorize scripts and vomit them back, you're just an actor.  However, the whole of what the fraternity offers is _acting with a moral purpose!_  What is that purpose: _Transform yourself toward the better.   _

Our morality plays are there to point out there is Transformation Work that you can _and should do!_ 

Unfortunately, most members never move beyond learning and acting out the scripts.  Far too many members don't even know that Ritual is there pointing the way.  Once I realized I was one of the mass of men who didn't realize this, I started writing and providing insight to those members who suspected there was more, but didn't know how to find and access it.

I write "_books beyond how to improve ones acting skills_" because there exist men like me who want to get more out of the society than just being a plug-n-play actor supporting a degree factory.



Bloke said:


> For me, Speculative Freemasonry might start with being a candidate in a quasi reality play, but that's only the start.



WOW!  Amazing!  for me they are morality plays that direct each patron's attention toward what each needs to improve himself. 

Unfortunately, most members do not take this Good Orderly Direction and actually apply it toward their lives in a deliberate way, beyond being really good actors supporting a system that they think is one thing but truly another.


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## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> WOW! Amazing! for me they are morality plays that direct each patron's attention toward what each needs to improve himself.


I like this.


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## coachn

Warrior1256 said:


> I like this.


Thanks Bro., it why I do what I do.


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## Classical

My favorite discussions on this board have been the ones where brothers share some of the meaning they have derived from Masonry. Thanks Bloke and Coach!


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## BroBook

Women can not be Masons, but they can be part of the family, some reasons they can't one it would, be a distraction getting them prepared and during the ceremonies, it would get out of hand, but most importantly, they don't have the MM's pass!!!


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## coachn

BroBook said:


> *Women can not be Masons*, but they can be part of the family, some reasons they can't one it would, be a distraction getting them prepared and during the ceremonies, it would get out of hand, but most importantly, they don't have the MM's pass!!!


You are mistaken. There are female Masons and some are actually part of Freemasonic Orders.  BTW - Those that are report no problems in the prep and the ceremonies or the MM's pass in their Order.


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## Bloke

coachn said:


> Great question! .......Ah!  You've taken offense to the Light I have shared.  Well understood..



*smiles*

I knew you would bit and I generally agree with you, but the question  "Then why do you write books beyond how to improve ones acting skills ?" was almost theoretical  I've not taken offense but have got vaguely annoyed with "refer to this link" which you know because you're smart enough to remember my comment on the same,  Mind you, I also use "refer to this link" LOL..



coachn said:


> ...Ritual (our privatized morality plays) is filled with allusions to what we can do to improve ourselves...  If you're going to just memorize scripts and vomit them back, you're just an actor.  However, the whole of what the fraternity offers is _acting with a moral purpose!_  What is that purpose: _Transform yourself toward the better_.....  for me they are morality plays that direct each patron's attention toward what each needs to improve himself....Unfortunately, most members do not take this Good Orderly Direction and actually apply it toward their lives in a deliberate way, beyond being really good actors supporting a system that they think is one thing but truly another.



I hope you don't mind me reducing your statement - I've done so hoping folk with know " ...." means there are bits between what I have quoted, and I am sure I've not changed your meaning or intent.

I agree, many Freemasons do not delve deeper, but like the passive pebble in a stream, the water of Freemasonry running over it can change a rough stone to the smooth, just by being in the moving water. I can point to things in me changed by my membership, but I am sure I've undergone change I don't even realize.

By the same token, the "acting" is simply a device, albeit a successful one, to deliver moral lessons. At the end of the day, Freemasonry itself is simply a device to make diverse men join together and lean from each other (including those lessons included in our ceremonies encapsulated both in our ideals, values and some of the "characters" in our story; including the candidate himself).

I walked out of my First Degree a changed man. With some new standards to live up to, and a fraternity of gentlemen to belong to. You can reduce this to a "device" as I have done, but by the same token it grossly sells what those touched by it experience.

All this has little to do with "woman in freemasonry" but good conversations generally move beyond where they started


----------



## Glen Cook

BroBook said:


> Women can not be Masons, but they can be part of the family, some reasons they can't one it would, be a distraction getting them prepared and during the ceremonies, it would get out of hand, but most importantly, they don't have the MM's pass!!!


It would be more accurate to say women are not members  of regular Freemasinry.  Per UGLE:
WOMEN AND FREEMASONRY

There exist in England and Wales at least two Grand Lodges solely for women. Except that these bodies admit women, they are, so far as can be ascertained, otherwise regular in their practice. There is also one which admits both men and women to membership. They are not recognised by this Grand Lodge and intervisitation may not take place. There are, however, informal discussions from time to time with the women’s Grand Lodges on matters of mutual concern. Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men (even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). Further information about these bodies may be obtained by writing to the Grand Secretary.

The Board is also aware that there exist other bodies not directly imitative of pure antient Masonry, but which by implication introduce Freemasonry, such as the Order of the Eastern Star. Membership of such bodies, attendance at their meetings or participation in their ceremonies is incompatible with membership of this Grand Lodge.

(Extract from Report of Board of General Purposes, adopted 10 March 1999)


----------



## MarkR

coachn said:


> Yes.  They were entirely operative.  Yes, at some point though they changed their business model, transitioning:
> 
> 1) from working on stone and selling their stonecraft skills and products
> 2) to selling membership to men to experience total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater that was scripted to use the lexicon, symbols and fabricated lore of stoneworkers to put on morality plays for private patrons​
> They are not now speculative however.  Speculative denotes being a speculative equivalent of an operative version.  Just because a stonecraft lodge kept minutes since their beginning and it showed that they transitioned their business model, doesn't mean that they are continuing what they did from their beginning; they are not.  No matter what illusion members who interpret their minutes want to have you buy into, calling a sausage an orange doesn't make what you have an orange; it's still a sausage.
> 
> From a wider view, the evidence is clear.  We are not a continuation of what stonecrafts did prior to 1717 (or what they did after that either!)  We are not even a speculative version of operative masonry.  What they (stonecraft lodges) did (stonework for fee) and what we (Freemasons) do (total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater with a moral purpose for fee) are two entirely different activities.
> 
> The practices they had and the practices we modern day members have are not different versions (Op. v Spec.) of each other.  The two are not even close.
> 
> The fantasy is fun and quite enjoyable and participation does bring rewards, but the reality of our practices is far from the romantic dogma provided.
> 
> Thanks for asking Bro. Mark!


I wish I was as sure about being right about things as you are.  I personally think that saying all that Mary's Chapel did was "transition their business model" is unsupported by evidence.  There was no "total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater" when the Scottish lodges started admitting men like Sir Robert Moray.  Nobody really knows why they came, and why they were accepted.  As S. Brent Morris put it, some time in the 17th century, it was as if a train went through a tunnel; when it entered the tunnel it was red; when it emerged it was blue.  We don't know who painted it, and more importantly, we don't know why.  

But I suppose you'll dismiss Morris as someone with an interest in perpetuating a myth.


----------



## coachn

Glen Cook said:


> It would be more accurate to say women are not members  of regular Freemasinry.  Per UGLE:
> WOMEN AND FREEMASONRY
> 
> There exist in England and Wales at least two Grand Lodges solely for women. Except that these bodies admit women, they are, so far as can be ascertained, otherwise regular in their practice. There is also one which admits both men and women to membership. They are not recognised by this Grand Lodge and intervisitation may not take place. There are, however, informal discussions from time to time with the women’s Grand Lodges on matters of mutual concern. Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men (even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). Further information about these bodies may be obtained by writing to the Grand Secretary.
> 
> The Board is also aware that there exist other bodies not directly imitative of pure antient Masonry, but which by implication introduce Freemasonry, such as the Order of the Eastern Star. Membership of such bodies, attendance at their meetings or participation in their ceremonies is incompatible with membership of this Grand Lodge.
> 
> (Extract from Report of Board of General Purposes, adopted 10 March 1999)


Agreed with one slight adjustment:

It would be more accurate to say women are not members  of RECOGNIZED Male-Craft Freemasonry.  Per UGLE: WOMEN AND FREEMASONRY

Regularity is set and determined by the GL.  Since female-craft GLs set and determine regularity for themselves, they are regular; just not to male-craft GLs.​


----------



## coachn

MarkR said:


> I wish I was as sure about being right about things as you are.


<giggle>Then do your research, practice and make it a reality.  ;-)

BTW - I am not sure about "being right".  I am confident in what I say.  There is a huge difference.


MarkR said:


> I personally think that saying all that Mary's Chapel did was "transition their business model" is unsupported by evidence.


As is your right.  We are all just sharing opinions here.


MarkR said:


> There was no "total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater" when the Scottish lodges started admitting men like Sir Robert Moray.


Agreed!


MarkR said:


> Nobody really knows why they came, and why they were accepted.


But are you so sure about this?  Evidence says differently.


MarkR said:


> As S. Brent Morris put it, some time in the 17th century, it was as if a train went through a tunnel; when it entered the tunnel it was red; when it emerged it was blue.  We don't know who painted it, and more importantly, we don't know why.
> 
> But I suppose you'll dismiss Morris as someone with an interest in perpetuating a myth.


What I stated does not conflict with Brother Brent's statements.

If you believe that that business transition was instantaneous  or that it was conscious or deliberate on their part with an end-in-mind, we will have to disagree.   I believe the transition was a series of choices and decisions that were motivated by money, personal interests and short term goals.

When you examine what they did then and what Freemasons do now, it should be clear that the two operations are as different from each other as living the dream and acting out a fantasy.  It should also be clear too that their business model was originally premised upon bringing members in to teach them stonecraft and to make them productive stonecraft workers for the business.

The moment they chose to include members who were not going to support that business model is the moment they chose _*to sell membership*_ _*into*_ _*something else*_ to create a revenue stream not dependent upon sales of stonecraft product and services but upon an offered theater that was not stonecraft.

Keep in mind, the common thread between the stonecraft lodge activities and what is now referred to as the early "speculative" period was the *dinner parties both offered* that included _*drinking, eating, singing, discourse and, ...wait for it... entertainment.*_

_To tie this back into the main theme, it should be clear that the wives of these included men had to be appeased and in about 100 years of so of these *dinner party activities* occurring that were put on for the benefit of all involved, *they enacted a rule to assure that no man could be excluded due to the concerns of any wife who feared that he was part of a dinner party society that had women as members.*_

Sadly, there is very little dinner party activity going on in this GL era.  All that we typically have offered to us now, beyond Degree activities, are boring business meetings, installations and GL visits.


----------



## coachn

Bloke said:


> *smiles*
> 
> I knew you would bit [SIC] and I generally agree with you, but the question  "Then why do you write books beyond how to improve ones acting skills ?" was almost theoretical  I've not taken offense but have got vaguely annoyed with "refer to this link" which you know because you're smart enough to remember my comment on the same,  Mind you, I also use "refer to this link" LOL..


I'm glad to hear that you did not take offense.  I'm deeply concerned that you're only vaguely annoyed.  I was shooting for something much more disturbing.  


Bloke said:


> I hope you don't mind me reducing your statement - I've done so hoping folk with know " ...." means there are bits between what I have quoted, and I am sure I've not changed your meaning or intent.


I believe they are called "ellipsis" and are usually used as follows, "...".  Any more periods shows a proclivity for banging upon the keyboard unnecessarily.  


Bloke said:


> I agree, many Freemasons do not delve deeper, but like the passive pebble in a stream, the water of Freemasonry running over it can change a rough stone to the smooth, just by being in the moving water. I can point to things in me changed by my membership, but I am sure I've undergone change I don't even realize.


STOP!  You have me at "I agree..."!


Bloke said:


> By the same token, the "acting" is simply a device, albeit a successful one, to deliver moral lessons.


Of Course it is!  It is profoundly moving, to the right audience.


Bloke said:


> At the end of the day, Freemasonry itself is simply a device to make diverse men join together and lean from each other (including those lessons included in our ceremonies encapsulated both in our ideals, values and some of the "characters" in our story; including the candidate himself).


It is a vehicle that forces no one to do anything.


Bloke said:


> I walked out of my First Degree a changed man.


Amazing!  How specifically were "you" changed?


Bloke said:


> With some new standards to live up to, and a fraternity of gentlemen to belong to. You can reduce this to a "device" as I have done, but by the same token it grossly sells what those touched by it experience.
> 
> All this has little to do with "woman in freemasonry" but good conversations generally move beyond where they started


Agreed!


----------



## Ripcord22A

Bloke said:


> I walked out of my First Degree a changed man.


   Ill be Honest, I didnt.  Going through the degrees was interesting and fun but I didnt really get anything out of it untill I saw them done, participated in them, and started studying them.  Honestly I get more out of it by watching them now then I did being the candidate.  I do however volunteer to e the "candidate" when ever we do a practive or 'MOCK' degree.  This does not mean that I agree with classes or multiple candidates.  I think seeing the degree with out having experienced it will not have the same effect of seeing it after having experienced it.

Kinda like watching a video of war on tv or the internet.  It looks sacry and exciting and dangerous and what not....but if you have never been shot at, shot at someone else, had your vehilce blown up by a roadsife bomb, ect ect then you dont really get what its like.  I watched a documetary on HBO the other day call "Only the Dead have seen the end of war" and there were certain sceans where my adrenaline spiked, my heart raced and it made me want to go back to Iraq.  My wife was sitting there watching with me and at one point the a terriorst  dude got smoked by some US soldiers and they dragged him over to a walled court yard to search him he was still sorta "alive".  by alive i mean he still had a pulse and was trying to breath but half his brain was no longer in his skull.  My wife looked at me and I was kinda smirking.  He had got what he deserved.  She said " I dont know how dealt with stuff like this."  and got up and left the room.  She didnt understand it.  Just like a candidate sitting on the sidelines wont get it fully.


----------



## Derinique Kendrick

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Ill be Honest, I didnt.  Going through the degrees was interesting and fun but I didnt really get anything out of it untill I saw them done, participated in them, and started studying them.  Honestly I get more out of it by watching them now then I did being the candidate.


My exact feelings!


----------



## dfreybur

Bloke said:


> By the same token, the "acting" is simply a device, albeit a successful one, to deliver moral lessons.



There are groups that teach "Fake it until you make it" because acting successful in business tends to lead to success in business.  I content that participation in our degrees works that way on character.  We act out the characters in a story of a great act of dedication to doing what is right at all times.  Each of us acts as the star of the events at least once.  Many of us act every part many times.  It has to have some small amount of impact on us.



coachn said:


> BTW - I am not sure about "being right".  I am confident in what I say.  There is a huge difference.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_semantics

General semantics teaches that all knowledge is provisional.  When we think we're right what we actually think is that so far we haven't learned ways that we were wrong so that we could improve.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

The Scientific Method teaches us that all data has "error bars" that estimate the uncertainty of our knowledge.  This makes all theory provisional, but better than that it gives us tools to estimate the degree of real certainty we may have in acting like any one provisional stance is "right".  Being "right" is really a matter of how many decimal places at this moment in this circumstance.

There are times when we know the size of the error bars.  That's when our confidence is real.  with inorganic chemistry I have never even touched an instrument that is capable of changing any digit of any entry in a book of inorganic chemistry tables.  I know there's more to inorganic chemistry than is know today but if I reference any entry in a table from the CRC book I know exactly how confident I can be.

There are other times when we guess at the size of the error bars.  When we guess they are small that's called being confident.  But well educated men know that the uncertainty never goes away in human endeavors.

This blurb should go in the "What is Philosophy" thread I think, but here it is thanks to thread drift.


----------



## coachn

dfreybur said:


> ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_semantics
> 
> General semantics teaches that all knowledge is provisional.  When we think we're right what we actually think is that so far we haven't learned ways that we were wrong so that we could improve.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
> 
> The Scientific Method teaches us that all data has "error bars" that estimate the uncertainty of our knowledge.  This makes all theory provisional, but better than that it gives us tools to estimate the degree of real certainty we may have in acting like any one provisional stance is "right".  Being "right" is really a matter of how many decimal places at this moment in this circumstance.
> 
> There are times when we know the size of the error bars.  That's when our confidence is real.  with inorganic chemistry I have never even touched an instrument that is capable of changing any digit of any entry in a book of inorganic chemistry tables.  I know there's more to inorganic chemistry than is know today but if I reference any entry in a table from the CRC book I know exactly how confident I can be.
> 
> There are other times when we guess at the size of the error bars.  When we guess they are small that's called being confident.  But well educated men know that the uncertainty never goes away in human endeavors.
> 
> This blurb should go in the "What is Philosophy" thread I think, but here it is thanks to thread drift.


Yep.  Hence my comment.


----------



## coachn

<snicker>


----------



## zouzoum

Brethren , this is the first time i receive this number of comments on a post i make on this app . Now i agree why no woman should be a mason . They will get more attention and distract us from doing the Great Work


----------



## coachn

zouzoum said:


> Brethren , this is the first time i receive this number of comments on a post i make on this app . Now i agree why no woman should be a mason . They will get more attention and distract us from doing the Great Work


----------



## Bloke

coachn said:


> I'm glad to hear that you did not take offense.  I'm deeply concerned that you're only vaguely annoyed.  I was shooting for something much more disturbing.



We should both try harder 



coachn said:


> I believe they are called "ellipsis" and are usually used as follows, "...".



Googled and confirmed, proud of me ?  Thanks, I didn't know that, now I do 



coachn said:


> Amazing!  How specifically were "you" changed?



I walked out feeling I had a new responsibility to live up to the ideals communicated.  A lot of the ideas were already my own, but for instance recreational marijuana use was something I occasionally did, in my new character as a Freemason, it's something I stopped. In the South that night, I learned about "pocket, heart & hand" which was a new way of expressing how we help each other as humans, reinforcing the lessons learned in the lodge room. I was given a framework (for expressing) within the lodge how to treat others and play a role in society. All this greatly appealed, I'd come to Freemasonry volunteering for an organisation where my proposer was another volunteer, so it's not like a got  spark to go and do good (I was already doing a lot of that and it's what brought me to Freemasonry) but I did leave with an inspiration to be a better man and a vehicle to express "masonic values', if that makes sense.

Right at the end of our ceremony, the last "values" overtly communicated are  "...._ I am led to hope that you will duly appreciate the value of Freemasonry and imprint indelibly imprint on your heart the sacred dictates of
TRUTH, 
of HONOUR, 
and of
VIRTUE_".

I guess the above was one of several main ideas I latched onto and still to this day try to live up to. But we all know Freemasonry is more subtle and deeper than just the above quote..

I felt I had joined a meritorious organization full of meritorious men and needed to live up to both those things. That aspiration changed me for the better and still does today.

I think describing a Good Freemason as a man who tries to grow, believes in self improvement while trying to support and improve those around him using pocket heart and hand while daily striving to live to the values of  Truth, Honour, and Virtue combined with the 4 cardinal and 3 theological virtues is a good way to describe a Freemason.. 

In essence, I guess I just left the lodge feeling transformed with tools to express and tweak my values and goals.

The four way test in Rotary 

Is it the truth?
Is it fair to all concerned?
Will it build goodwill and better friendships?
Will it be beneficial to all concerned

imparts some of this, but I guess one of the ways Freemasonry is different is because it is ritualized  and also includes and obligation while overtly acknowledging the existence (and in my view, presence) of the GAOTU and respected peers....

I don't know Coach, I am not sure I can really put it into words with 5 minutes of thought and writing a post, nothing will do it justice. The best way to see it is to know me; which is how it should be with all Freemasons.

I score myself 6.5/10 on the above attempt LOL


----------



## Glen Cook

Derinique Kendrick said:


> My exact feelings!


Well, you both make me feel better.  Wandering around unable to see; concentrating on accurately repeating on what is being said and not concentrating on its meaning, really didn't teach me much.


----------



## MarkR

coachn said:


> <giggle>Then do your research, practice and make it a reality.  ;-)


Actually, it has been my personal experience that the more I read and study on any topic, the less I think I know about it.


----------



## coachn

Bloke said:


> We should both try harder


I agree!!!! 


Bloke said:


> Googled and confirmed, proud of me ?  Thanks, I didn't know that, now I do


Yes!  I am, and in a Brotherly way too!!!


Bloke said:


> I walked out feeling I had a new responsibility to live up to the ideals communicated.  A lot of the ideas were already my own, but for instance recreational marijuana use was something I occasionally did, in my new character as a Freemason, it's something I stopped. In the South that night, I learned about "pocket, heart & hand" which was a new way of expressing how we help each other as humans, reinforcing the lessons learned in the lodge room. I was given a framework (for expressing) within the lodge how to treat others and play a role in society. All this greatly appealed, I'd come to Freemasonry volunteering for an organisation where my proposer was another volunteer, so it's not like a got  spark to go and do good (I was already doing a lot of that and it's what brought me to Freemasonry) but I did leave with an inspiration to be a better man and a vehicle to express "masonic values', if that makes sense.
> 
> Right at the end of our ceremony, the last "values" overtly communicated are  "...._ I am led to hope that you will duly appreciate the value of Freemasonry and imprint indelibly imprint on your heart the sacred dictates of
> TRUTH,
> of HONOUR,
> and of
> VIRTUE_".
> 
> I guess the above was one of several main ideas I latched onto and still to this day try to live up to. But we all know Freemasonry is more subtle and deeper than just the above quote..
> 
> I felt I had joined a meritorious organization full of meritorious men and needed to live up to both those things. That aspiration changed me for the better and still does today.
> 
> I think describing a Good Freemason as a man who tries to grow, believes in self improvement while trying to support and improve those around him using pocket heart and hand while daily striving to live to the values of  Truth, Honour, and Virtue combined with the 4 cardinal and 3 theological virtues is a good way to describe a Freemason..
> 
> In essence, I guess I just left the lodge feeling transformed with tools to express and tweak my values and goals.
> 
> The four way test in Rotary
> 
> Is it the truth?
> Is it fair to all concerned?
> Will it build goodwill and better friendships?
> Will it be beneficial to all concerned
> imparts some of this, but I guess one of the ways Freemasonry is different is because it is ritualized  and also includes and obligation while overtly acknowledging the existence (and in my view, presence) of the GAOTU and respected peers....
> 
> I don't know Coach, I am not sure I can really put it into words with 5 minutes of thought and writing a post, nothing will do it justice. The best way to see it is to know me; which is how it should be with all Freemasons.
> 
> I score myself 6.5/10 on the above attempt LOL


Neat!  Thank you!!!!


----------



## coachn

MarkR said:


> MarkR said:
> 
> 
> 
> _*I wish I was as sure about being right about things as you are.*_
> 
> 
> 
> <giggle>Then do your research, practice and make it a reality. ;-)
> 
> _*BTW - I am not sure about "being right". I am confident in what I say. There is a huge difference.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, it has been my personal experience that the more I read and study on any topic, the less I think I know about it.
Click to expand...

You sure sound very confident in your conclusion about your efforts.   I am assured by your words that you are absolutely right, as you had wished for -- _KUDOS!_ 

Unfortunately, the downside is that you also sound like your approach coupled with your view is counterproductive in building the actual confidence you wish for.  Perhaps a different approach and view might help. 

BTW - Your "out-of-context" quote of my words displayed them far more seriously than they were intended.  Perhaps exploring humor and it various intents and applications would also help too.  

My own experience is that ignorance is not bliss.  It's usually filled with much more unanticipated woes than I want.  _It's far better to know that I don't know than to mistakenly believe that I do know.  _I hope that you would agree and see the same for yourself.

One additional thought.  I temper the above with: _It's far better to know that what is put before me is not right, than to assume that it is_ _right and invite thoughts, actions and results based upon that assumption.
_
The latter does invite much woe too when not understood and applied confidently.


----------



## dfreybur

Glen Cook said:


> Well, you both make me feel better.  Wandering around unable to see; concentrating on accurately repeating on what is being said and not concentrating on its meaning, really didn't teach me much.



Interesting.  How each of us have so very different reactions to so similar events, yet the shared experience binds us across the world even with those different reactions.

For me it started out meaningful in the lesson of trust.  My friends had recommended the lodge to me and I liked the guys I met there but at the time of my Initiation I didn't know any of them all that well.  I put my trust in these new acquaintances and I delivered myself into their hands.  I stepped out in faith that they would take good care of me and they did.  At all times I could feel the Senior Deacon next to me with the sleeve of his shirt just barely touching my arm as we stood or his hand on my arm guiding me as we walked.

Then I noticed the repetition in the words and I started focusing on remembering what to say the next time.  This engaged the intellectual part of my mind as my stepping out in faith had engaged the emotional part of my mind.

Then I saw the Worshipful Master and looked around to see all of the Brothers gathered around me like in a military formation.  This engaged the social part of my mind.  Each step adding a layer of meaning to the event.  Each step distracting my mind from the previous layers that churned processing deep inside my subconscious.

By the time the lecture started it was more than I could process.  I sat there amazed at the expertise but having no idea what was being said.  So I let the words pour over me sort of like the icing on a layer cake.  Or the polishing finish of a wall once its stones have been set in place.


----------



## Bloke

dfreybur said:


> ....  I sat there amazed at the expertise but having no idea what was being said....



I look around and see a lot of lawyers in the craft, I often think this is the case because they are used to deciphering more complicated language than the rest of us. Likewise I often find people who read often find the ceremony more accessible than the average joe... do you think there is anything in that observation ?


----------



## dfreybur

Bloke said:


> I look around and see a lot of lawyers in the craft, I often think this is the case because they are used to deciphering more complicated language than the rest of us. Likewise I often find people who read often find the ceremony more accessible than the average joe... do you think there is anything in that observation ?



In my 1st and 3rd degrees I was overwhelmed by the content before the lecture so the lecture could have been out of a Doctor Suess book and I would not have noticed.  In my 2nd degree the walking around and standing combined with the lectures being divided into parts made it far better absorbed by me.

For later hearings of the lecture I figure you nailed it.  Vocabulary building and grammar manipulation are two of the ways we make good men better.  They also happen to be part of grammar and rhetoric in the list of 3 liberal arts and sciences.

To me the ceremonies are for the candidates, the lectures are for the members.


----------



## Warrior1256

dfreybur said:


> To me the ceremonies are for the candidates, the lectures are for the members.


Good observation brother.


----------



## acjohnson53

Not hating on any one, women as their on EAS, Daughter's of Isis, and so forth..I don't intrude on their business, My name ain't Bro Sista Alberta Johnson..stay in y'all lane..


----------



## acjohnson53

And anyway she want be able to last 8 seconds on that GOAT..


----------



## The Traveling Man

I belonged to a Co-Masonic Lodge prior to joining my current Jurisdiction. I can say that they take their Masonry very serious. They are not a social Order at all, they focus on the Work. They take the ritual serious. If you step off wrong, or don't cut that corner properly you're doing it again. Anyone looking for information about them should look at one of Karen Kidd's books. She received an award from the UGLE years ago for her paper titled "I'm Regular". While the UGLE doesn't recognize Co-Masonry she was recognized and referred to as Brother. She has written 2 books on the subject (the 2nd of which I am pictured in Lodge on page 195). They practice the Scottish Rite version of the Craft Degrees, which would probably be close to the Red Lodge rituals practiced in Louisiana. Although they are considered Irregular they definitely couldn't be placed in the same category as the JGJ or PHO lodges. The all female Lodges descend from the Co-Masonic Orders, which descend from the French Lodges. Any UK Mason who has witnessed the Emulation Ritual should be able to follow the ritual. I never saw any problems in Lodge that would make me believe that men and women can't sit in Lodge together.
I think there's a place for male Lodge, women Lodges, and Co-Masonic Lodges. Most countries, outside of America, don't have a problem with women in Masonry. America is where the problem lies. But I definitely understand why men may not want to sit in Lodge with a women. Although they cannot join my Grand Lodge, nor sit in Lodge with us, I wouldn't go as far as saying they aren't Masons. I'd say they are as legitimate as the French Masons, just unrecognized.


----------



## Bloke

Thanks for your interesting post TMan, I think Bro Karen Kidd changed my thinking of regularity, but that said, I can't sit in lodge with her and would vote to keep my GL as a fraternity.



The Traveling Man said:


> .....Most countries, outside of America, don't have a problem with women in Masonry. America is where the problem lies.....



Depends on what you mean by "have a problem".... I would say most Freemasons in Australia, the vast vast majority of which are working under GLs recognised by UGLE, don't get bent out of shape by there being woman Freemasons, but any suggestion to incorporate women into our GL never gets very far, so perhaps most Australian Freemasons would have a "problem" with women in Freemasonry..


----------



## The Traveling Man

Bloke said:


> Thanks for your interesting post TMan, I think Bro Karen Kidd changed my thinking of regularity, but that said, I can't sit in lodge with her and would vote to keep my GL as a fraternity.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on what you mean by "have a problem".... I would say most Freemasons in Australia, the vast vast majority of which are working under GLs recognised by UGLE, don't get bent out of shape by there being woman Freemasons, but any suggestion to incorporate women into our GL never gets very far, so perhaps most Australian Freemasons would have a "problem" with women in Freemasonry..



I was referring to women being Masons, period. Women joining male Lodges, well that's an entirely different discussion. I'm fine with a "Separate but Equal" situation.


----------



## Bloke

Thanks for the clarification.

If Freemasons value equality and respect, surely we can extend that to other organisaiton which value and pursue similar goals and values... I never quite get regular freemasons who will not treat co-freemasons and the like with respect...


----------



## The Traveling Man

Bloke said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> If Freemasons value equality and respect, surely we can extend that to other organisaiton which value and pursue similar goals and values... I never quite get regular freemasons who will not treat co-freemasons and the like with respect...



People fear what they don't understand. Grand Lodge says they're Clandestine so nobody takes the time to look into it. If I hadn't been a Co-Mason before I would probably have the same attitude. But having sat in Lodge with them I know how dedicated they are. I remember a Brother joining from Mexico who was limited in English. Another Brother flew in from New York just to translate the ritual into Spanish. Then immediately (and I do mean Immediately) after the Initiation the Brother left and got right back on a plane to New York. I thought that was insane. I remember dissecting the entire Book of Constitutions, 1 paragraph per meeting. Having to write papers and discuss, even breaking down each exam question and what it means to us. Before you can advance to the next degree members have to do a "Work of the hands", displaying the operative side of Masonry. I could go on and on about those types of things.

When I joined my new Lodge most of the members had never heard of Co-Masonry. They were a little hesitant. My vote got pushed back a few times, until a good Brother someone stepped in and did some research. I was thinking about giving up, but he stayed on me. He saw the Masonry in me and I saw the true Masonry in him. That Brother became my biggest support and is ultimately the reason I joined.

I love my Lodge and wouldn't think of leaving, but I doubt even the most dedicated Brothers in my Lodge could handle the amount of discipline and dedication that the Co-Masonic Lodge displayed. Those lessons I learned there have made me a better Mason in my new Lodge. I have received praise from Grand Lodge officers about how I present myself, the memorization of the Obs., etc. People who have visited my Lodge, even when I was an EA, would make comments to me like "You've done this before haven't you?" or "You know it better than me." I just smile and nod.


----------



## coachn

From everything that I have read and heard, _*the problem lies in both the ignorance and assumption of the members.*_ 

Many men are unknowingly and trustingly indoctrinated into society cultures that assumes that their organization is the only legitimate one.  They are mistaken.

These same men also believe that their practice is the only legitimate practice.  Here too they are mistaken.

Unfortunately, in playing both out, they are sucked so far down the rabbit hole of these two fallacies that they attack anyone who dares contradict with facts.  This is a shame since in doing so, they inevitably sabotage the very intent of what the Society tries to Cultivate -- _*incivility, inconsideration, misunderstanding, and intolerance are but a few things that manifest though their blind devotion to a fabricated idol.*_

*Fact:* Legitimacy is established by a whole bunch of rules that help regulate the franchise nature of specific Freemasonic orders.  It is fabricated!

*Fact: *Legitimacy is based upon a lot of fallacies that assume the fabricated lore is Factual. 

*Fact: *A lot of Freemasonic Lore is fun, thought-provoking and intentionally entertaining, but some is not Factual.
*
Fact: *Since every last one of these Freemasonic Societies is a *Total-Immersion Live-Action Alternative-Reality Role-Playing Theatrical Society*, each makes up their own rules and _*Acts *_According to those Rules, _all designed to protect the interest of that society_.  This includes all the dogma put forth to reinforce protective natures.

*Fact:* Both Female Craft and Co-masonic Craft as a whole have no collective interest in attending Male Craft Lodges to co-mingle during Male Craft Lodge activities.  In other words, they could not care less.  (As an aside, I understand that they would like to be respected for what they Practice, but this respect is not necessary since they shall continue to Practice no matter what attitudes, biases and bigotries they may encounter.)


----------



## Warrior1256

Bloke said:


> Thanks for your interesting post TMan, I think Bro Karen Kidd changed my thinking of regularity, but that said, I can't sit in lodge with her and would vote to keep my GL as a fraternity.


Same here.


----------



## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> Both Female Craft and Co-masonic Craft as a whole have no collective interest in attending Male Craft Lodges to co-mingle during Male Craft Lodge activities. In other words, they could not care less. (As an aside, I understand that they would like to be respected for what they Practice, but this respect is not necessary since they shall continue to Practice no matter what attitudes, biases and bigotries they may encounter.)


I can agree with this. I would not set in lodge with women but if a separate organization want to do this more power to them.


----------



## vangoedenaam

Why cant i join the female hockey team? I'ld love that. They wont let me.

Women can join masonry, but only the mixed or female only teams


----------



## Warrior1256

vangoedenaam said:


> Why cant i join the female hockey team? I'ld love that. They wont let me.
> 
> Women can join masonry, but only the mixed or female only teams


Precisely!


----------



## Brother JC

JamestheJust said:


> It seems that the GAOTU is male.


Only in a patriarchal society with the need to anthropomorphize everything.


----------



## Brother JC

But they don't insist the GAOTU is male.


----------



## Brother JC

No, like you, I'm merely making assumptions.


----------



## Brother JC

It's not universally male, as there are cultures that revere the Sacred Feminine. This particular universe just has a lot of patriarchal societies who have forced their "vision" upon the masses.
I prefer to see it as a duality.


----------



## Glen Cook

Brother JC said:


> It's not universally male, as there are cultures that revere the Sacred Feminine. This particular universe just has a lot of patriarchal societies who have forced their "vision" upon the masses.
> I prefer to see it as a duality.


In the LDS faith (Mormon) we accept there are a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.


----------



## Scoops

In my view God simply is. It's us that have stamped an image on the Supreme Being in order to try and understand it better or, more cynically, to use that image to control people more easily.


----------



## tldubb

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Your example is flawed.  each indv GL would be the ARMY and the subordinate lodges the BDE and the concordinate bodies the BN and the members the companies..ect.  but to place that example on Freemasonry as a whole is flawed and heres why.  TN doesnt accept gays but NM does.  TN subordinate lodges cannot knowling innitate a gay man.  NM can.  there is nothing over TN GL to tell them they are wrong.  If TN and NM were military units the ARMY would make that decision and then DoD would look at it, and if necessary then congress, then POTUS then SCoUSA.  no such checks and balances exist in Freemasonry.  As Coach said bellow it is a label placed upon many individual organizations


Good point!


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry Pro


----------



## Ripcord22A

JamestheJust said:


> As far as I can see the GAOTU has 2 faces.  The face towards this set of universes is male and to the other set is female.
> 
> Occasionally we get visitors from the other set that appear to us as avatars.


 
WHAT??!?!?!?!?!? 

James I really hope that you are an ANTI and you just say this stuff to get a rise out of us or in the hopes that other people outside of the fraternaty will see your posts and think that we are all that crazy.  Otherwise PLEASE brother go to a PsyD and get examined.


----------



## Warrior1256

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> WHAT??!?!?!?!?!?
> 
> James I really hope that you are an ANTI and you just say this stuff to get a rise out of us or in the hopes that other people outside of the fraternaty will see your posts and think that we are all that crazy.  Otherwise PLEASE brother go to a PsyD and get examined.


Yeah, really.


----------



## Classical

I stop by this thread and always want to pop some popcorn for some reason....


----------



## Bloke

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> WHAT??!?!?!?!?!?
> 
> James I really hope that you are an ANTI and you just say this stuff to get a rise out of us or in the hopes that other people outside of the fraternaty will see your posts and think that we are all that crazy.  Otherwise PLEASE brother go to a PsyD and get examined.



Are your lodges places where people don't speculate ? James might seem a bit "out there" but many of us might say the GAOTU is a mystery and presents him/her/itself in many forms.... which is what Bro James basically said using a different turn of phrase. 

I remember my third degree ob well (yes, I know they differ) but why mock him for suggesting an idea ? Ideas are the life and breath of Freemasonry. If you're not keen on what he says, don't engage and trust readers to make their conclusions. I see no profit or pleasure in mocking a brother because he marches to a different drum, if Freemasonry is a place of tolerance, please observe that Brothers...


----------



## Bloke

JamestheJust said:


> Thanks for your support.  It seems that the tolerance of the 3rd degree obligation is better practiced in some lodges than others..



No problem... I was thinking more about support in your presence and absence and not injuring a brother...



JamestheJust said:


> I write for those very few brethren that practice some Masonic Science and provide my observations to compare with the results of their own experiments and possibly suggest new experiments.



I think we all practice the science James - just with different goals... personally, my major one is developing the next generations of leaders rather than esoteric pursuits...  but you cannot develop those leaders without trying to obtain a broad understanding of all we do..


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> WHAT??!?!?!?!?!?
> 
> James I really hope that you are an ANTI and you just say this stuff to get a rise out of us or in the hopes that other people outside of the fraternaty will see your posts and think that we are all that crazy.  Otherwise PLEASE brother go to a PsyD and get examined.


Unless it's an allegory.    Please understand Brother that your insistence that the symbols called words can be viewed in only one way reveals as much about you as Brother James words reveal about him.


----------



## dfreybur

Bloke said:


> I see no profit or pleasure in mocking a brother because he marches to a different drum, if Freemasonry is a place of tolerance, please observe that Brothers...



This is why we forbid discussion of sectarian religion and partisan politics in our assemblies.  Brother James pushes the edge on religious topics.  His statements irk some, confuse others.

I'm a mystic of a different bent than Brother James.  His deal and mine are very different; we are weird in different ways.

Remember that we have all stated we believe in the existence of a supreme being and that we don't question each other on that belief.  We know our conclusions are different; what binds us is the decision not the details surrounding that decision.

Forever there have been a small percentage of mystics, sensitives, eccentrics, whatever who have direct personal observation of deity.  Forever there have been attempts at instrumental detection.  None who report can ever duplicate their experiences so the reports do not count as evidence.  That means the reports count as testimony.  There's a difference between what a scientist calls evidence and what a lawyer calls testimony.  Religion swims inside that difference.  Mysticism swims inside that difference.

Let's step back and think about the word "testimony" and how it works with the one shoe on and one shoe off thing.  Testimony is about memory of events perceived by one person but not by others.  That does not have to be because they were the only person present.  Testimony is about what is real to one person but does not have to be real to others.  Testimony is about plan of action moving forward, stepping out in faith.

There are more reasons for having one shoe on and one shoe off than the historical reference about testimony.  It's also to physically keep our candidates unbalanced at a time when they have delivered themselves into our care so that they may demonstrate the faith in us that we will have in them.  There's more, though.  There is the less physical version of being out of sync that brings us to the observations of mystics.

Mystics give testimony.  Non-mystics evaluate testimony.  All of us have decided to accept some testimony in some circumstances to have expressed a belief in a supreme being.  On the one hand accepting testimony is about the character of the one giving that testimony.  On the other hand in matters of experiences not shared by others, the more different it is from the testimony of others the more that impacts the perception of the character of that one mystic.

Mystics are caught in this Catch-22 of what testimony is.


----------



## coachn

<snicker>


----------



## Bloke

coachn said:


> <snicker>View attachment 5028



Coach, many atheists might say exactly the same about my belief in the GAOTU; for many (including me!), that goes beyond rational, sensible and realistic dimensions and into the realm of unschooled  fantasy and wishful fabrication.  Some people say the GAOTU is the imaginary friend for adults.

Jame's views are no more or less ridiculous than my belief in a supreme being.. to think otherwise is hubris

I think our founders were wise to say no religion or politics in lodge, but that in uniting men of varied spiritual beliefs and traditions, there is a common spirituality in the belief of a Supreme Being of some sort. I've got no problem when people respectfully explore each others beliefs without proselytizing, but also respect and adhere when someone shuts down a conversation to avoid conflict on the issues of religion and politics.

I think you take an rationalist's approach to Freemasonry. And why not ? There is much to contemplate and rationalise, but at the end of the day, my view is faith is irrational by its nature because it is faith and Freemasonry call us to respect (but in no way compels us to accept) other people's faith.

Using and extending on Doug's words ; were all weirdos, because we have other interests beyond just making a buck and (for those of us who's Constitution has required us to do so) have a belief in a Supreme Being, in many rooms of people now days, that puts us firmly beyond rational, sensible and realistic dimensions and into the realm of unschooled  fantasy and wishful fabrication and in the category of weirdo and "woowoo".


----------



## coachn

Bloke said:


> Coach, many atheists might say exactly the same about my belief in the GAOTU; for many (including me!), that goes beyond rational, sensible and realistic dimensions and into the realm of unschooled  fantasy and wishful fabrication.  Some people say the GAOTU is the imaginary friend for adults.
> 
> Jame's views are no more or less ridiculous than my belief in a supreme being.. to think otherwise is hubris
> 
> I think our founders were wise to say no religion or politics in lodge, but that in uniting men of varied spiritual beliefs and traditions, there is a common spirituality in the belief of a Supreme Being of some sort. I've got no problem when people respectfully explore each others beliefs without proselytizing, but also respect and adhere when someone shuts down a conversation to avoid conflict on the issues of religion and politics.
> 
> I think you take an rationalist's approach to Freemasonry. And why not ? There is much to contemplate and rationalise, but at the end of the day, my view is faith is irrational by its nature because it is faith and Freemasonry call us to respect (but in no way compels us to accept) other people's faith.
> 
> Using and extending on Doug's words ; were all weirdos, because we have other interests beyond just making a buck and (for those of us who's Constitution has required us to do so) have a belief in a Supreme Being, in many rooms of people now days, that puts us firmly beyond rational, sensible and realistic dimensions and into the realm of unschooled  fantasy and wishful fabrication and in the category of weirdo and "woowoo".


The "woowoo" factor is as real for me, as your belief in the GAotU... to think otherwise is hubris.


----------



## Bloke

coachn said:


> The "woowoo" factor is as real for me, as your belief in the GAotU... to think otherwise is hubris.



*smiles*


----------



## Ripcord22A

So my Aunt was a Pastor as was her late husband.  Im not sure when it happend but my Aunt has lost touch with reality as it pertains to the GAotU.  First of off she told me a story of a time when she was in South America, I cant remember the country she was in.  WHile she was there there was a terrible car accident.  I city bus lost control and rolled down a large embankment shredding the bus and ejecting most of its passengers.  Almost everyone was killed.  She said the town came together at the site during recovery efforts and started praying and almost all the people that were dead were "resurrected".  SO apparently there is a city in SOuth America with a bunch of Zombies. 
2nd Her husband was diagnosed with Cancer in 2013.  They refused treatment at first saying they were going to pray to God and he would heal my uncle.  My aunt was a RN.  Yet she shunned the very scientists that her god put here on this planet for that exact reason.  By the time they realised that their game of Chicken that they were playing with God wasnt working it was too late and my uncle passed in 2014.

A belief in something is not "woowoo"  but when you start talking about people coming back from  the dead, or things like that that is WooWoo.

Also as it pertains to Freemasonry there is no magic or devine anything.  as Coach has pointed out on may occasions our degrees are not historical or anything like that.  our founders took Stonemason tools and attached esoteric meaning too them, the real Stonemasons didnt.  Our FOunders Made up the stories of our degrees to teach lessons because when someone has to find something the remember it better, meaning if I just tell you to be a b etter man by doing ABC that wont mean anything but if I show you a play, a song a movie or soemthing and then tell you to study it for what it is really saying you will grasp it much better. 

There is no lost word, or secrets or anything.  Cause it a MADE UP STORY!!  the point of the storys is convey a moral compass on to people...1st: respect people privacy, 2nd LEARN! 3rd killing is bad and EARN YOUR PLACE IN LIFE THORUGH GOOD DEEDS!  obviously that is pretty stripped down meaning of the degrees. 

To think that the GAotU is actually watching and actively participating in the Degrees is Hubris. 

People Already think that the Freemasons are crazy and we want to take over the world or we control it and we worship the devil and we are a religion ect ect, so to put on a public forum these beliefs that a "Being" is participating in our rituals is at best irresponsible and at worst intentionally destructive to the Craft.





  this video is from a church in my hometown.  They piped in gold confetti dust and got the people to believe that it was from god.  They speak in tounges, conduct false healings and are just all around nuts.  They are very pushy in town they come up to you and want to pray for you  and lay hands and when you  politly decline they will follow you through the store and keep insisting.  When I read his comments these are the people that I think of.  They even have a 1 and 3 yr program entitled School of Supernatural Ministry........

I am sorry if you feel that I am being intollerant of his beliefs but as I stated above I dont think posting those belifs are benefical to the Craft!


----------



## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> The "woowoo" factor is as real for me, as your belief in the GAotU... to think otherwise is hubris.


LOL....now boys, let's settle down.


----------



## coachn

Warrior1256 said:


> LOL....now boys, let's settle down.


WOOWOO!!!!!


----------



## dfreybur

coachn said:


> The "woowoo" factor is as real for me, as your belief in the GAotU... to think otherwise is hubris.



If we define the woowoo factor as that which is real to me based on my observations but that can't be confirmed by all others, that is very close to how I use the word mystical.

Hubris - I figure all religions are attempts by some to convince others of their woowoo.  Some religions are more popular than others so some groups are better at that convincing than others.  I tend to think about whether some group becomes authoritarian in their ways rather than how much hubris some group displays.



JamestheJust said:


> This can work because humans generally have their inner sight blocked, unlike animals.  Thus cats and dogs are well known to be better judges of human character.



Interesting hypothesis.  Many of us have noticed how good domesticated animals are at judging character.  Some of us have noticed animals jumping at spirits.  You're the first I remember to correlate these two sets of observations.


----------



## coachn

dfreybur said:


> If we define the woowoo factor as that which is real to me based on my observations but that can't be confirmed by all others, that is very close to how I use the word mystical.


Sorry Bro., it's already been defined:

_*The "woowoo" factor is any esoteric, metaphysical or mystical talk that boldly goes beyond rational, sensible and realistic dimensions and into the realm of unschooled fantasy and wishful fabrication.*_​
Any other definition distorts its intent to drive home a simple concept: _Woowoo is a REAL factor where this definition applies!_



dfreybur said:


> Hubris - I figure all religions are attempts by some to convince others of their woowoo.


Agreed.  And some non-religious mystical fanatics too.



dfreybur said:


> Some religions are more popular than others so some groups are better at that convincing than others.


Agreed!  Some are so good at it their followers will drink spiked Koolaid with a little gentle pointing of assault weapons.


dfreybur said:


> I tend to think about whether some group becomes authoritarian in their ways rather than how much hubris some group displays....


They usually go hand in hand.


----------



## Bloke

coachn said:


> Sorry Bro., it's already been defined:
> 
> _*The "woowoo" factor is any esoteric.....*_.​


​Well, already defined as per a definition offered by you... but I actually think it is sort of a good definition, but for some, it would catch any sort of faith in the GAOTU ? Do you agree Coach ? Does "woowoo" include any sort of belief in a GAOTU ? As I read the definition, it does...


----------



## coachn

Bloke said:


> Well, already defined as per a definition offered by you... but I actually think it is sort of a good definition, but for some, it would catch any sort of faith in the GAOTU ? Do you agree Coach ?



LOL!  Perhaps for those individuals exhibiting major WooWoo, themselves.  Those who boldly go beyond rational, sensible and realistic dimensions and into the realm of *schooled* fantasy and *probable* fabrication are less likely to be accused of WooWoo.  



Bloke said:


> Does "WooWoo" include any sort of belief in a GAOTU ?



If it meets the criteria, sure.  If it doesn't, it's less likely to get the label.  _A good indicator though would be talk of riding unicorns around the north pole... that's a dead giveaway!  _



Bloke said:


> As I read the definition, it does...



As I read it, it doesn't necessarily lean that direction.


----------



## Glen Cook

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> So my Aunt was a Pastor as was her late husband.  Im not sure when it happend but my Aunt has lost touch with reality as it pertains to the GAotU.  First of off she told me a story of a time when she was in South America, I cant remember the country she was in.  WHile she was there there was a terrible car accident.  I city bus lost control and rolled down a large embankment shredding the bus and ejecting most of its passengers.  Almost everyone was killed.  She said the town came together at the site during recovery efforts and started praying and almost all the people that were dead were "resurrected".  SO apparently there is a city in SOuth America with a bunch of Zombies.
> 2nd Her husband was diagnosed with Cancer in 2013.  They refused treatment at first saying they were going to pray to God and he would heal my uncle.  My aunt was a RN.  Yet she shunned the very scientists that her god put here on this planet for that exact reason.  By the time they realised that their game of Chicken that they were playing with God wasnt working it was too late and my uncle passed in 2014.
> 
> A belief in something is not "woowoo"  but when you start talking about people coming back from  the dead, or things like that that is WooWoo.
> 
> Also as it pertains to Freemasonry there is no magic or devine anything.  as Coach has pointed out on may occasions our degrees are not historical or anything like that.  our founders took Stonemason tools and attached esoteric meaning too them, the real Stonemasons didnt.  Our FOunders Made up the stories of our degrees to teach lessons because when someone has to find something the remember it better, meaning if I just tell you to be a b etter man by doing ABC that wont mean anything but if I show you a play, a song a movie or soemthing and then tell you to study it for what it is really saying you will grasp it much better.
> 
> There is no lost word, or secrets or anything.  Cause it a MADE UP STORY!!  the point of the storys is convey a moral compass on to people...1st: respect people privacy, 2nd LEARN! 3rd killing is bad and EARN YOUR PLACE IN LIFE THORUGH GOOD DEEDS!  obviously that is pretty stripped down meaning of the degrees.
> 
> To think that the GAotU is actually watching and actively participating in the Degrees is Hubris.
> 
> People Already think that the Freemasons are crazy and we want to take over the world or we control it and we worship the devil and we are a religion ect ect, so to put on a public forum these beliefs that a "Being" is participating in our rituals is at best irresponsible and at worst intentionally destructive to the Craft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this video is from a church in my hometown.  They piped in gold confetti dust and got the people to believe that it was from god.  They speak in tounges, conduct false healings and are just all around nuts.  They are very pushy in town they come up to you and want to pray for you  and lay hands and when you  politly decline they will follow you through the store and keep insisting.  When I read his comments these are the people that I think of.  They even have a 1 and 3 yr program entitled School of Supernatural Ministry........
> 
> I am sorry if you feel that I am being intollerant of his beliefs but as I stated above I dont think posting those belifs are benefical to the Craft!



I started to type Amen, but in this instance, maybe "Agreed" is the better response.


----------



## Glen Cook

coachn said:


> ...  _A good indicator though would be talk of riding unicorns around the north pole... that's a dead giveaway! _
> ...


Well, duh, as if unicorns are outside the equatorial zone.

These discussions remind me of  Mencken's retort: 
We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
— *H L Mencken*, _Minority Report_ (1956)


----------



## Bloke

Glen Cook said:


> Well, duh, as if unicorns are outside the equatorial zone.
> 
> These discussions remind me of  Mencken's retort:
> We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
> — *H L Mencken*, _Minority Report_ (1956)



WITDLB ?


----------



## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> If it meets the criteria, sure. If it doesn't, it's less likely to get the label. _A good indicator though would be talk of riding unicorns around the north pole... that's a dead giveaway! _


Wait! Are you saying that there is really NO SUCH THINGS AS UNICORNS????!!!!


----------



## dlacaille

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all of these responses.  I think the only posts that don't belong are those saying others don't!  (Wait, that means mine too, hrmm....)

This is not a lodge so how can the rule of discussing religion and politics possibly hold sway here?  Isn't Freemasonry comprised of people who have a belief in Deity? It doesn't say Yahweh (or whatever your spelling is), the flying spaghetti monster or the Thetan alien living inside you. Just belief in Deity.

I know that over my life I've gone from Protestant to atheist to Catholic to now "I hope I'm doing the right thing because I don't fully trust the major religions available". That includes reading of esoteric matters and pondering about what I think may be a common flowing river in the worlds religions, possibly buried in allegory and wide spread so regardless of which religions might "win" this knowledge will never be permanently lost, only hidden. 

All of that to basically say, in a few years your own views might change and you wouldn't want others to pressure you or ridicule you for your decision to seek out answers elsewhere. What a boring, repressive, unimaginative and dictatorial world this would be!



Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry Pro


----------



## Ripcord22A

Yes that true james as Scientists base their assumptions on facts.  They expand on those facts by making assumptions and then either proving or disproving said assumptions.  
Mystics just make stuff up amd spew the stuff that others do

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


----------



## Warrior1256

dlacaille said:


> This is not a lodge so how can the rule of discussing religion and politics possibly hold sway here?


True.


dlacaille said:


> Isn't Freemasonry comprised of people who have a belief in Deity? It doesn't say Yahweh (or whatever your spelling is), the flying spaghetti monster or the Thetan alien living inside you. Just belief in Deity.


Also true.


----------



## dfreybur

JamestheJust said:


> Long ago I did a science degree and noticed that the theories of science changed radically from one century to the next.



Science, in its capitalized form, is young and still immature.  Give it time to mature.

Look more closely at any one field within science.  They mature and slow.  Inorganic chemistry is now so exact I have never touched an instrument capable of changing any digit in the tables of the CRC book.  Yet that book was written by the Chemical Rubber Company decades ago.  Advances in inorganic chemistry are now exotic crystal structures targeting super strength or superconducting.  Electronics remains on its initial exponential growth curve.  Field to field sciences spring up, grow, mature, slow in asymptotic approach to their ideal form.



> At the same time I noticed that mystics from 2000 years ago were saying the same things as they say now.  Hmm!



Well now they are pointing out that a short 4-5 centuries ago mystics in the form of Renaissance natural philosophers gave birth to the capital S version of Science.  Two millennia ago they were saying that a short 4-5 centuries ago mystics in the form of Greek sages gave birth to the capital P version of Philosophy.

Both were order from chaos, to me the heart of the mystical.  Just like it says on the Scottish Rite ring - Ordo Ab Chao.

Whatever the knowledge is, while it is still hidden in chaos it gets called mysticism.  Once order is discovered that knowledge moves into the realms of Mathematics, Philosophy and Science.  It is with good reason the great mathematicians, philosophers and scientists of ancient times were mystics and it remains true today.  Ponder that mathematics is now taught as a mundane practice and so many are confused by it.

Plus sa change, plus sa meme chose.


----------



## Rob_Eades

How on Earth can you think about furthering the oldest and largest FRATERNITY in the world in a co-masonic lodge.  It is clearly clandestine to any regular Mason!


----------



## coachn

Rob_Eades said:


> How on Earth can you think about furthering the oldest and largest FRATERNITY in the world in a co-masonic lodge.  It is clearly clandestine to any regular Mason!


<snicker> Regular to whom?


----------



## Warrior1256

Rob_Eades said:


> How on Earth can you think about furthering the oldest and largest FRATERNITY in the world in a co-masonic lodge.  It is clearly clandestine to any regular Mason!


Have to agree with you there brother.


----------



## Joaben

There are no serious reason to exclude women from freemasonery, just machist pretexts. Anyway female and mixt masonery exists without any trouble for more than hundred years.
The same pretexts were used to exclude from army, police, religion.
In 1717 not only women were exluded, but black people, servants, handicaped people ... Situation have evolved,  because thes criterias were not masonic but adapted to the social structure of these times.
But to keep these apartheid against women in the 21st century is a shame for freemasonery.


----------



## Joaben

coachn said:


> <snicker> Regular to whom?


regular to ... rules ...  
Masonic rituals are explicit how do you recognize someone to be mason  !
And there is no refrence to penis!


----------



## Warrior1256

Joaben said:


> But to keep these apartheid against women in the 21st century is a shame for freemasonery.


It's called a FRATERNITY for a reason. In addition one of the landmarks is that no woman can be admitted to the Lodge. One of the main reasons that I joined was that it IS a fraternity. Funny, you never hear anyone saying that sororities should admit men. But then why would a man want to join a sorority in the first place?


----------



## Joaben

does "fraternity" mean "male only" ?  "Fraternally..." is applied discussing to female masons.  The 18th century landmarks exclude servants, handicaped people, homosexuals ... In the landmarks of 18th century'army they were excluded too. 
"sororities" ??? In countries where Feminine lodges are common, they accept males in their meetings.
The question is to know if sex have something to do with freemasonery : "male only" or "female only" ...


----------



## Ripcord22A

F i w NOT b prs at the m of a WOMAN a M.

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


----------



## Joaben

JamestheJust said:


> Long ago I did a science degree and noticed that the theories of science changed radically from one century to the next.
> 
> At the same time I noticed that mystics from 2000 years ago were saying the same things as they say now.  Hmm!


and your conclusion is ...?


----------



## coachn

Warrior1256 said:


> It's called a FRATERNITY for a reason. In addition one of the landmarks is that no woman can be admitted to the Lodge. One of the main reasons that I joined was that it IS a fraternity. Funny, you never hear anyone saying that sororities should admit men. But then why would a man want to join a sorority in the first place?


Yes, male-craft is a fraternity.  Female-craft is a sorority.  Co-masonry is mixed.  You join the version that best suits YOUR interests.


----------



## Joaben

coachn said:


> Yes, male-craft is a fraternity.  Female-craft is a sorority.  Co-masonry is mixed.  You join the version that best suits YOUR interests.


Yes, but Freeamason behavior engage all freemason. Practice of masonic apartheid is a shame for ALL freemasons ...male or female.
NO-sexist craft is a fraternity too. What link FM together(fraternity) has nothing to do with sex, no ?


----------



## babyjo

The way it has been explained to me is that Freemasonry deals with male energy. Freemasonry is angular and so are men. Women are known for having curves. Therefore, the type of 'Work' we do in the Blue Lodge is not specifically intended for women. Yet, so much of what we believe and do as Masons is meant to Support women, children and the community. Women are not permitted in any other Fraternity, so why does the question only come up with regard to ours? Throughout history, there have been women who were made Masons but I think the real reason for the exception may have been lost in antiquity. As Masons, we certainly value our wives, sisters, daughters and girlfriends. It is not meant that women should feel excluded, as we have many functions to which we do invite our families. It is more that Lodge Meetings are a time when we Masons can meet without the distractions of the outside world. Historically, women have always been a distraction to men who are Working. Think of the pretty woman walking by the construction site, being cat called. That is a classic but extreme example. Of course, no Mason would ever behave in that way, but in Lodge, we want to be the best version of ourselves that we can. I'm not sure there is any one reason for the Fraternity being exclusively male. But for my reasoning, I need no other reason than the fact that it is a Fraternity.


----------



## Joaben

@babyjo... The fact that sexist-masons explained to you that "Freemasonry deals with male energy" just mean that they are sexists. It is not an evidence ! And in opposition with FACTS ! Women practice masonery exactly the same way we do.
Women were not permitted in army, police, religion, management before ! They are now ! 
Mixt masonery (C-masonery, you say) is highly practiced in Europe without any problem of such kind.
In your job, you have to work with women, no ?


----------



## Ripcord22A

you are obviously an ANTImason I will not engage any longer and I suggest to my fellow brethren here do the same


----------



## dfreybur

babyjo said:


> so why does the question only come up with regard to ours?



Because our fore-bearers led the world in freedom and equal treatment so people jump to an incorrect conclusion.  Equal treatment to us means women are completely welcome to have their own orders that exclude men.

Because we are universal in terms of race, creed, national origin, religion, that we must also be universal in terms of gender.

It's not difficult to figure why folks ask if we take women.

To me the hard part is why other orders that are single gender don't get singled out as we are.  I actually have no idea if other excluding orders are singled out or not.  I see the questions aimed at Masonry because I am active in lodges.  I can't off the top of my head name orders that are exclusive to women.  Plus I don't any of those orders are anywhere near our size so we make a much larger target.


----------



## babyjo

It is obvious to me that @Joaben   is upset and that was not my intention. So despite @jdmadsenCraterlake211 's suggestion, I have posted a reply below. 

     To answer your question about the workplace, I wouldn't put it as 'have to' work with women. I quite enjoy a diversified workplace. I don't understand how anything I wrote was sexist. I'm sorry if you feel that I was told this by 'sexist Masons.' It was actually a woman who explained to me that Freemasonry is male energy work, not a Mason. My interest in and study of the Occult stretches far beyond the Light of Freemasonry. But outside of that conversation, I have never actually discussed the reason why women are not 'allowed' to be Masons.  As I mentioned, a few women have been made Masons. I also stated that Masonry is not specifically intended for all women. I didn't say anything against women joining, as there are some Lodges that DO permit women to join. I don't see the value in having a firm opinion on the issue, nor did I state that I have a firm opinion on the subject. I'm sorry if what I wrote made you upset, as it was not my intention to do so. I have no interest in perpetuating sexism, but a Fraternity is historically a group of men who meet. I have seldom felt the need to question that further. This thread interested me for that exact reason. Thinking that I am among Masons, and therefore free to express myself without ridicule, I was willing to share my perspective. The last thing I hoped for was to cause disharmony in the thread. Being a Mason, I have no problem entertaining a difference of opinion. I can only speak to what I have experienced, seem to know and understand, and what I am told. I have never demanded to join a Sorority. I'm not sure what would happen if I were to do so. The only thing keeping me from doing so is probably the fact that I respect the fact that those women want a place to congregate without men. Just as most Masons want a place to congregate without women. Please accept my sincere apology in expressing what I thought to be a benign opinion.


----------



## Ripcord22A

babyjo said:


> It is obvious to me that @Joaben   is upset and that was not my intention. So despite @jdmadsenCraterlake211 's suggestion, I have posted a reply below.
> 
> To answer your question about the workplace, I wouldn't put it as 'have to' work with women. I quite enjoy a diversified workplace. I don't understand how anything I wrote was sexist. I'm sorry if you feel that I was told this by 'sexist Masons.' It was actually a woman who explained to me that Freemasonry is male energy work, not a Mason. My interest in and study of the Occult stretches far beyond the Light of Freemasonry. But outside of that conversation, I have never actually discussed the reason why women are not 'allowed' to be Masons.  As I mentioned, a few women have been made Masons. I also stated that Masonry is not specifically intended for all women. I didn't say anything against women joining, as there are some Lodges that DO permit women to join. I don't see the value in having a firm opinion on the issue, nor did I state that I have a firm opinion on the subject. I'm sorry if what I wrote made you upset, as it was not my intention to do so. I have no interest in perpetuating sexism, but a Fraternity is historically a group of men who meet. I have seldom felt the need to question that further. This thread interested me for that exact reason. Thinking that I am among Masons, and therefore free to express myself without ridicule, I was willing to share my perspective. The last thing I hoped for was to cause disharmony in the thread. Being a Mason, I have no problem entertaining a difference of opinion. I can only speak to what I have experienced, seem to know and understand, and what I am told. I have never demanded to join a Sorority. I'm not sure what would happen if I were to do so. The only thing keeping me from doing so is probably the fact that I respect the fact that those women want a place to congregate without men. Just as most Masons want a place to congregate without women. Please accept my sincere apology in expressing what I thought to be a benign opinion.


 
So here is my take on it....In schools and other public actions there are seperate but equal activities. There is baseball for boys and softball for girls, boys track events, girls track events, male Martial arts divions and female martial arts divisons, for activities where there is no alternative boys can participate in predominately female activies( volleyball, cheerleading ect) and girls vice versa (football, wrestling).  Same with masonry...thgere are all female and mixed gender lodges.  I acknowledge their existence and regularity of work(in most cases) however we are not part of the same family brach....more like inlaws,,,,,IE i wouldnt go to my brothers wifes family reunion same as a comason or female only member cant come to my lodge and vice versa!


----------



## coachn

<snicker> what secrets?


----------



## Bloke

coachn said:


> Yes, male-craft is a fraternity.  Female-craft is a sorority.  Co-masonry is mixed.  You join the version that best suits YOUR interests.



Indeed.


----------



## coachn

JamestheJust said:


> These days there is an inner game for almost everything:  cricket, tennis, music, wealth, work, motorcycles ...
> 
> But not Masonry.  Masonry has really lost it.


Freemasonry perhaps, but not Masonry; ever. 

This who practice the former, think the real secrets are lost forever. 

Those who practice the later, have them.


----------



## Joaben

@dfreibur : What you say about freedom for women, was called in South Africa APARTHEID.
It is silly, soory ! Have you any right or concession to leave anyone found their own order ? No ! Anybody can found their order ! You may not recognize them ! That is your sole power !
@jdmadsenCraterlake211 : you can say, you do not like me and do not want to exchange with me ... This a bit capricious. Anti-mason ? Because I disgree with yor sexism ? ?
@babyjo : not upset at all ! I undestand you point ! I thought the same during years ! Tell that to the ones who do not want to exchange anymore(the agression by the mirror) ...sexism means discrimination depending on sex. When you say you do not want to practice masonery together with women you are in this case. It does not change if you say they can practice elsewhere.  They do ! They don't wait for your autorisation !(fortunately).
"I have never actually discussed the reason why women are not 'allowed' to be Masons." ...sorry but wrong subject ! Women are free to practice masonery ! The only problem is YOURS ... why you apply a false (but deeply in the minds) criteria to practice masonery together. Racist in South Africa were sure of the well-founded.
There were historical, sociological, economical reasons in 18th century for sexual discrimination as well as slavery.  
You have to ask yoursel YOUR reasons to ractice sexism ... in freemasony when the first founders, masons, of America stated Independance Act, becoming Human Rights later.
I have been 15 years mason in a sexist Grand-Lodge ... I know after these years that apartheid appears natural.
About the word "fraternity", we practice masonery with exactly same rituals than UGLE, without taking into account the sex of the mason. And this is called "Universal Fraternity" ! To explain my point try to meditate about what is the link betwenne brethren behind the word "fraternity" Anything to do with sex ? I think NO ! That'ts why I think we need to ban sexism in freemasonery !


----------



## Joaben

Bloke said:


> Indeed.





coachn said:


> Yes, male-craft is a fraternity.  Female-craft is a sorority.  Co-masonry is mixed.  You join the version that best suits YOUR interests.


This is what was called APARTHEID !


----------



## coachn

Joaben said:


> This is what was called APARTHEID !


It's called "choice" and "freedom of association" granted and accepted by the laws and people of the land in acknowledgement of a free society.

It's legal, it's moral and it's ethical, unless you are attempting to prove a point that has nothing to do with the reason for the rule, then it becomes anything you care to distort it to be.  You can complain and label it anyway your chose to; it does not make what you claim a fact.

BTW - APARTHEID is so much more.  _You can't mislead educated minds with charged words that echo inhumanity, injustice and social classism._


----------



## coachn

JamestheJust said:


> Mathew 7:7   seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you;
> 
> Mathew 13:12  whoever hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken from him.


Just because you don't know something, doesn't make it a secret.  It just means that you don't know enough.


----------



## Joaben

coachn said:


> It's called "choice" and "freedom of association" granted and accepted by the laws and people of the land in acknowledgement of a free society.
> It's legal, it's moral and it's ethical, unless you are attempting to prove a point that has nothing to do with the reason for the rule, then it becomes anything you care to distort it to be.  You can complain and label it anyway your chose to; it does not make what you claim a fact.
> BTW - APARTHEID is so much more.  _You can't mislead educated minds with charged words that echo inhumanity, injustice and social classism._


Nobody denies your right. And apartheid was legal in South Africa, as well as slavery in Europe and America, as well as human sacrifices at other times. All that defended by "educated minds" ...
Instead of taking offense, easy way to escape confrontation ... :
Apartheid was "separate devolpment" of black and white people.
Your apartheid does not target skin colour, but sex of people.
In some ways it is worse than apartheid ... Some appears denying the ability of women to be freemasons !!!
Don't forget that some Grand Lodges in Europe have been condemned for sectarism(does not concern yet sexism, but it can come).
I understand you don't like facing the dark reality of sexism in mainstream freemasonery. Sorry to be FREE-mason !
Accept to be FREE-mason et go further in your claim : If you claim "freedom", a lodge must be free of its criteria of acceptance. All masonic rituals mention the same criteria fo "How do I recognize you as a mason ?" You know the answer ! Nothing to do with sex !


----------



## coachn

Joaben said:


> Nobody denies your right. And apartheid was legal in South Africa, as well as slavery in Europe and America, as well as human sacrifices at other times. All that defended by "educated minds" ...
> Instead of taking offense, easy way to escape confrontation ... :
> Apartheid was "separate devolpment" of black and white people.
> Your apartheid does not target skin colour, but sex of people.
> In some ways it is worse than apartheid ... Some appears denying the ability of women to be freemasons !!!
> Don't forget that some Grand Lodges in Europe have been condemned for sectarism(does not concern yet sexism, but it can come).
> I understand you don't like facing the dark reality of sexism in mainstream freemasonery. Sorry to be FREE-mason !
> Accept to be FREE-mason et go further in your claim : If you claim "freedom", a lodge must be free of its criteria of acceptance. All masonic rituals mention the same criteria fo "How do I recognize you as a mason ?" You know the answer ! Nothing to do with sex !


You are clearly operating at a disadvantage and under a delusion. 

I am far from offended.  I'm mildly amused at your simpleton efforts. 

There is no "development" going on within the Society other than cultivating actors who continue the show. 

There is no denial of females to become Freemasons; they have two options at their disposal that they can partake of and from what I here, more seriously too.  They are banned from the fraternal choice because the members of the fraternal organization have the right to do so.

Your insistence that there exists a dark reality of sexism only reveals your distorted dark view.  It is your view; it is not the reality. 

Endlessly calling it "apartheid" no less makes it so than calling members of the organization "Masons".  Both are labels and neither are based upon any resemblance of reality. 

You have no idea what "Free-mason" means and your ignorance shows at levels that are ear popping.


----------



## Joaben

@coachn ... dont speculate about imaginary "delusion" to try to weaken others. please no fox-news here ! I am very happy to work in masonery out of sexual apartheid.
Some on this forum deny the ability of women to be freemason. If it is not your case, I congratulate you for this small progress.
What you describe is clearly APARTHEID, even if the word has a very bad reputation.
Women are not BANNED from fraternal choice ! YOUR ORGANISATION BAN them. In other fraternal organisation they (and we) live a freemasonery free from your sexism.
You have decided YOURSELF that masonery must be sexist. And you have difficulty to assume the reality of your apartheid (read the definition on wikipedia instead of protesting). Yes black people were banned to go in the SAME BUS than white people. White people dont deny black to take the bus ... but not with them ... Exactly like you !
You can off course agress me and deny me my freemasonery ... another point that proves that you ignore even the basics ("How do I recognize you as a mason ?"). May be your pride is enough for you to auto-proclaim you as a mason allowed to revoke masonic tri-centenary rules for recognition of masons ?


----------



## Joaben

coachn said:


> Freemasonry perhaps, but not Masonry; ever.


 In the oldest english rituals, we read : "how many sorts of masons ? Two ! The freemasons and the buiding workers !" Is it what you mean ?


----------



## Dontrell Stroman

Glen Cook said:


> In the LDS faith (Mormon) we accept there are a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.


If you don't mind me asking, are you a believer of the Mormon faith ?


----------



## coachn

> ... dont speculate about imaginary "delusion" to try to weaken others.


To point out an already existing weakness as an existing state does not make the person exhibiting such weakness weaker.   That is delusional thinking.


> please no fox-news here ! I am very happy to work in masonery out of sexual apartheid.


To find happiness in a delusion is not something to boast about.  It is warped. _(and it's "Freemasonry" not "masonery"!)_


> Some on this forum deny the ability of women to be freemason. If it is not your case, I congratulate you for this small progress.


It an interesting point to ponder... being the object of any congratulations from another for not sharing in a delusion.


> What you describe is clearly APARTHEID, even if the word has a very bad reputation.


Apartheid is imposed upon a population within geographical boundaries that they cannot escape from.  They did not opt-in to the arrangement.  They must subjugate themselves to the will of a minority who have empowered themselves through force of law to prevent the target of their laws from living lives that only a few can.

Freemasonry are voluntary opt-in organizations that offer to both genders opportunity to participate in morality plays and other organizational events that are also voluntary and that have no impact upon the laws of the land, who they hang with, what they do to make a living and where and how they live.

You are trying to equate unicorns to real animals.  That is delusional.



> Women are not BANNED from fraternal choice ! YOUR ORGANISATION BAN them. In other fraternal organisation they (and we) live a freemasonery free from your sexism.


Good!  Enjoy your participation and for God's sake, allow us to enjoy ours without dumping your desires and passions as unrealistic expectations that we must follow suit to soothe your unsettled dogmatic soul.


> You have decided YOURSELF that masonery must be sexist.


I have decided what I want to participate in.  It is not a mixed gender environment and I have no guilt or shame over it.  In fact, I am quite pleased that such environments exist for me, for my Brothers and for my Sisters world wide.  You can call it sexist; it does not mean that it is or make it so.


> And you have difficulty to assume the reality of your apartheid (read the definition on wikipedia instead of protesting).


I try not to accept false labels that are intended to manipulate ignorant minds.  This is one such false label that I shan't accept based upon your illogical and biased rantings.


> Yes black people were banned to go in the SAME BUS than white people.


You forgot to mention Hitler...  your argument is missing this.  Don't you realize that without mentioning Hitler your argument is automatically invalid?  Get with it, please!


> White people dont deny black to take the bus ... but not with them ... Exactly like you !


You are ranting in directions that make no sense whatsoever and claiming things that are the imaginings of a unsound uninformed  soul.


> You can off course agress me and deny me my freemasonery ...


Only if you are inside my jurisdiction.  Outside it, you are free to play with your unicorns all you want.


> ...another point that proves that you ignore even the basics ("How do I recognize you as a mason ?").


Well for one, a sound mind would help.


> May be your pride is enough for you to auto-proclaim you as a mason allowed to revoke masonic tri-centenary rules for recognition of masons ?


LOL!  You keep thinking that if you throw enough fertilizer at an insane seed it will bear useable fruit.  How's that working for you?


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

FYI - Reading this thread is so much more enjoyable if you have clicked "ignore" on the right people!


----------



## Ripcord22A

_apartheid
1_: racial segregation; _specifically_: a former policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of South Africa
a rigid former policy of segregating and economically and politically OPPRESSING the nonwhite population.

@coachn are we oppressing women by not allowing them in our boys club?


----------



## Joaben

Definitions of FRATERNITY :
*1. * A body of *people *associated for a common purpose or interest, such as a guild.
*2. * A group of *people *joined by similar backgrounds, occupations, interests, or tastes: the fraternity of bird watchers.
*3. * A social organization at a college or university, traditionally consisting of male students and designated by Greek letters.
*4. * _Roman Catholic Church_ A sodality.
*5. * The quality or condition of being brothers; brotherliness.

Except the male STUDENTS, not relevant with our discussion ... nothing to do with masculine ...


----------



## coachn

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> _apartheid
> 1_: racial segregation; _specifically_: a former policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of South Africa
> a rigid former policy of segregating and economically and politically OPPRESSING the nonwhite population.
> 
> @coachn are we oppressing women by not allowing them in our boys club?


No.  Furthermore, we are not appressing, depressing, expressing, suppressing, prepressing, repressing, or impressing them either.


----------



## Ripcord22A

@coachn You ever find yourself in NM let me know....Id Like to buy you lunch and pick your brain about Freemasonry. 

Ive told a few brothers here in my lodge and valley how you make the distinction that Freemasonry is what we do in the lodge and Masonry is what we do in our selves.  None of us had thought of it like that but have started applying that thought process~


----------



## coachn

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> @coachn You ever find yourself in NM let me know....Id Like to buy you lunch and pick your brain about Freemasonry.


Will Do!  Thanks for letting me know the door is open and the brew and stew await within.



jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Ive told a few brothers here in my lodge and valley how you make the distinction that Freemasonry is what we do in the lodge and Masonry is what we do in our selves.  None of us had thought of it like that but have started applying that thought process~


Awesome!  Have you had the chance to read the articles on the distinctions on my blog?


----------



## Joaben

coachn said:


> No.  Furthermore, we are not appressing, depressing, expressing, suppressing, prepressing, repressing, or impressing them either.


 Nobody says that you assaninate, oppress women ... only recall THE FACTS(based on definition) you practice sexism and apartheid against women in your view of freemasonery. I suppose that you are a gentleman at home ...
White apartheid power in South Africa never ban blacks to go on the beach  ... just to ban them from the same beach than white people ...


----------



## Joaben

coachn said:


> Will Do!  Thanks for letting me know the door is open and the brew and stew await within.
> Awesome!  Have you had the chance to read the articles on the distinctions on my blog?


 If you use these words to distinguish these to aspects of free(?)masonery why not ?


----------



## Joaben

@coachn : your dream of delusion just engage your feeling ...
I understand that you want to practice apartheid, but do not assume it ! Of course, you accept(you have no other choice) that women practice masonery in another "territory" than yours.
The words "sexist" and "apartheid" have a definition in the dictionnary.
"sexist" mean discrimination based on sex. And obviously you discriminate the entrance in your meetings based on sex of the freemson.
What Hitler has to do with that ??? ... Have you reached Goldwin point ?
I just mention South African apartheid. And I point the similarity with your own apartheid.
You can danse and laugh, coachn, to hide the facts I pointed to you ...
"Free" means too "frank", "sincere", "direct" !
Do you deny the tri-centenary recognition of freemasons ? Another pirouette or quasi-insult is not an answer !
"Only if you are inside my jurisdiction." you said ? sorry but angry and silly answer ... If I am "inside" there is no more question !
But I am very ashamed for you that you apparently ignore the basics of recognition betwenn masons ... May be you feel too "high" ?


----------



## coachn

> Nobody says that you assaninate, oppress women ... only recall THE FACTS(based on definition) you practice sexism and apartheid against women in your view of freemasonery. I suppose that you are a gentleman at home ...
> White apartheid power in South Africa never ban blacks to go on the beach  ... just to ban them from the same beach than white people ...


You truly do need to get a life.


----------



## Joaben

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> FYI - Reading this thread is so much more enjoyable if you have clicked "ignore" on the right people!


 yes ! Do you know ostrich politics ?(to bury one's head in the sand) ?


----------



## Joaben

coachn said:


> You truly do need to get a life.


My "poor" coachn(sorry, but regarding your disdain), I understand that the lack of arguments drives you to insults. Normally, FM must bring you to self-control, respect. But as you have missed the basics ("how to recognize a freemason?") I understand  your behavior ...
May be we can place the discussion on a more mutual respect ?


----------



## coachn

> @coachn : your dream of delusion just engage your feeling ...
> I understand that you want to practice apartheid, but do not assume it ! Of course, you accept(you have no other choice) that women practice masonery in another "territory" than yours.


No.  You only believe that I want to practice something that you are labeling as "apartheid".  Your assumptions are incorrect.


> The words "sexist" and "apartheid" have a definition in the dictionnary. (SIC)


Apartheid has already been defined and shown to not support your claims.

*sexism definition*. The belief that one sex (usually the male) _*is naturally superior*_ to the other *and should dominate most important areas of political, economic, and social life*. *Sexist* discrimination in the United States in the past has denied opportunities to women in many spheres of activity.

What I engage in does not support any of these definitions.  Your claims are invalid.



> "sexist" mean discrimination based on sex.


But we are not having sex here.  We are just socializing with men.  Your claim is invalid.



> And onviously you discriminate the entrance in your meetings based on sex of the freemson.


LOL!  The more pumped up you get, the worse your grammar gets.

I could not care less what sex our members are having as long as it is not during our meetings.


> What Hitler has to do with that ...


Exactly as much as your comments about racism and sexism and just as valid.


> I just mention South African apartheid. And I point the similarity with your own apartheid.


You're seeing imaginary things and attempting to make points.  Your points and your efforts are not valid.


> You can danse and laugh, coachn, to hide the facts I pointed to you ...


I dance and laugh not to hide facts but to avoid stepping in the rich fertilizer that you spread upon my path.


> "Free" means too "frank", "sincere", "direct" !


Yes, but it does not apply as a suitable meaning here and your definition is not within context.  You can read more here: http://www.coach.net/BuildingFreeMen.htm  Education awaits!


> Do you deny the tri-centenary recognition of freemasons ? Another pirouette or quasi-insult is not an answer !


I have no clue as to what you are seeking by your cryptic question. I can say though that I shall not be present to the masonic making of a madman or fool.  We're pretty tight on this in my jurisdiction.  I'm thinking your jurisdiction may be a little more relaxed on this.


> "Only if you are inside my jurisdiction." you said ? sorry but angry and silly answer ... If I am "inside" there is no more question !


But you are not inside, and hence your point is mote and your efforts are invalid.


> But I am very ashamed for you that you apparently ignore the basics of recognition betwenn masons ... May be you feel too "high" ?


You can claim membership, but until you begin to actually display Masonic Character and reveal Sane Thinking, I shall remain suspicious, cautions and distant to and from your ranting and raving.


----------



## Ripcord22A

coachn said:


> Will Do!  Thanks for letting me know the door is open and the brew and stew await within.
> 
> 
> Awesome!  Have you had the chance to read the articles on the distinctions on my blog?


 I have not, no.  Ive read some of your posts but not recently


----------



## coachn

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I have not, no.  Ive read some of your posts but not recently


Thanks Bro.  Here's a few to start you out:

*Masonry vs Freemasonry:* http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-coaches-coach-drawing-distinctions.html
*Operative vs Speculative:* http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-coaches-coach-drawing-distinctions.html
*Accepted vs Admitted:* http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2014/07/building-free-men-chapter-iv-accepting.html
*Freemasonry-Masonry Primer:* http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-coaches-coach-freemasonry-masonry.html

Enjoy!

John


----------



## Joaben

@coachn : Please give wher you find your definition of sexism ... I prefer the facts :
* (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism):*

prejudice or *discrimination based on sex*; _especially_ :  discrimination against women
behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
*(http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sexism) :*
1 attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of gender roles.
2.*discrimination* OR devaluation based on a person's sex or gender, as in restricted job opportunities, especially such discrimination directed against women.
3.ingrained and institutionalized prejudice against or hatred of women ;

Can you accept, coachn, that I base my writings on *dictionnary definition, not your desires *?
I have given the accurate exemples showing that you militate for apartheid of women in FM. I undersand that you do not assume. OK !
YOU write about Hitler ! Not me ! Assume ! Dont involve me with your affirmations ...
I did not talk about racism neither ! Dont argue againt what I never said, please !
Obviously you ignore the basics of "how to recognize someone as a freemason"! ... nothing cryptic ! You use York ritual, I suppose ? You have the direct answer during the ceremony of initiation (just after the obligation) ... A shame to have to recall you that ! Do you feel too "high" to listen at what is taught to new entered apprentices ? Apparently your arrogance has replaced basics of freemasonery !
So, reading your words and such ignorance compensated by arrogance, your appreciation of what is "sane" for you gives me same effect than ... I do not want to be as crude as you ...


----------



## coachn

> @coachn: Please give wher you find your definition of sexism ...


Nah.  A simple search will reveal it.


> Full Definition of sexism(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism)
> 
> prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially :  discrimination against women
> behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
> (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sexism)
> 3 attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of gender roles.
> 4.discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex or gender, as in restricted job opportunities, especially such discrimination directed against women.
> 5.ingrained and institutionalized prejudice against or hatred of women ;


As per each of your offered definitions:
1. We are not having sex.  We simply want to get together with other males, leave females out of our activities and are exercising our right to freedom of association.  _Your definition is invalid._
2. We exhibit no "behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex".  We simply want to get together with other males, leave females out of our activities and are exercising our right to freedom of association.  _Your definition is invalid._
3. Our choice to do so has nothing to do with "attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of gender roles".  We simply want to get together with other males, leave females out of our activities and are exercising our right to freedom of association.  _Your definition is invalid._
4. We have no "discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex or gender, as in restricted job opportunities, especially such discrimination directed against women".  We simply want to get together with other males, leave females out of our activities and are exercising our right to freedom of association.  _Your definition is invalid._
5. We have no "ingrained and institutionalized prejudice against or hatred of women".  We simply want to get together with other males, leave females out of our activities and are exercising our right to freedom of association.  _Your definition is invalid._

It must be so frustrating for you to continually see that your points are moot and invalid.



> Can you accept, coachn, that I base my writings on dictionnary definition, not your desires ?


Yes.  I can accept that you base your writings, rants and raves upon unsuitable and inappropriate dictionary definitions.


> I have given the accurate exemples showing that you militate for apartheid of women in FM. I undersand that you do not assume. OK !


I'm not seeing it.  But then again, my imagination is not as creative as yours.


> YOU write about Hitler ! Assume ! Dont mix me with your affirmations ...


Oh! So now you say that I can't take the same creative liberties that you take?  Hurumph to you!


> I did not talk about racism neither ! Dont argue againt what I never said please !


<cough> Really?  Then tell me how your comment "*White apartheid power in South Africa never ban blacks to go on the beach ... just to ban them from the same beach than white people ...*" is NOT talking about RACISM?  and please try to keep a straight face while you do.


> Obviously you ignore the basics of "how to recognize someone as a freemason"... nothing cryptic ! You use York ritual, I suppose ?


I ignore the basics of nothing, freemasonic or otherwise.  If you're spouting non-sense, it's pretty basic, you're spouting non-sense.  York ritual is not required. Only common sense.  However, if I am dealing with someone who can't comprehend the basics, it's a whole different hand-basket.


> You have the direct answer during the ceremony of initiation (just after the obligation) ...


But we are not in lodge and you are not exhibiting the sanity one should expect of properly a vetted petitioner or an initiated member...


> A shame to have to recall that !


Your bar is not raised high enough on this.


> But apparently your arrogance has replaced basics of freemasonery !


What you take to be arrogance is your inability to comprehend the basics.


> So, reading your words and such ignorance compensated by arrogance, your appreciation of what is "sane" for you gives me same effect than ... I do not want to be as crude as you ...


Good.  Set that bar higher then and have at it.  We could all use an improvement in your contribution.


----------



## Bloke

Joaben said:


> That'ts why I think we need to ban sexism in freemasonery !



I doubt very much there is a "we" in the sense of you bring a regular Freemason. If you are, all well and good, but you must come from an interesting lodge and had an interesting masonic experience, probably, and I am sorry to say, less positive that I've had...... If you're a "co-freemason", then "we" as in your peak body and its lodges have banned "sexism" in lodges because you admit women and you've solved the problem you're presenting and you've done it over 100 years ago, way before woman achieved basic rights like holding property and voting. Nice to think Freemasons did that 

I respect that females want women only gyms, birthing circles, and other female only groups (including groups like The Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons and Honourable Order of Womens Freemasons - awesome and well done ladies ! Every and high success to them !!!). I respect women's rights to have such organisation because being a Freemason who works under a male only GL, I understand the special and open social atmosphere such an environment creates and I've seen men open up, have quality and unique exchanges and behave in positive ways in a male only lodge I have never seen anywhere else.


----------



## Glen Cook

Travelling Man91 said:


> If you don't mind me asking, are you a believer of the Mormon faith ?


Yes, I am LDS.


----------



## Joaben

Bloke said:


> I doubt very much there is a "we" in the sense of you bring a regular Freemason. If you are, all well and good, but you must come from an interesting lodge and had an interesting masonic experience, probably, and I am sorry to say, less positive that I've had...... If you're a "co-freemason", then "we" as in your peak body and its lodges have banned "sexism" in lodges because you admit women and you've solved the problem you're presenting and you've done it over 100 years ago, way before woman achieved basic rights like holding property and voting. Nice to think Freemasons did that
> I respect that females want women only gyms, birthing circles, and other female only groups (including groups like The Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons and Honourable Order of Womens Freemasons - awesome and well done ladies ! Every and high success to them !!!). I respect women's rights to have such organisation because being a Freemason who works under a male only GL, I understand the special and open social atmosphere such an environment creates and I've seen men open up, have quality and unique exchanges and behave in positive ways in a male only lodge I have never seen anywhere else.


Your reaction is really strange. Where do you find in our basic principles that FREEmasons must agree in all sutuations wwith the positions of the headquarters ? This is a dictatory, not freemasonery. Arrogance seems the main engine of some groups here, which is far from freemasonery : Typically how can you pretend have a "more positive experience" than me ??? Just pretention, so !
When you see that som ignore the basics of freemasonery ("how do you recognize a freemason ?" ) ....
I do not deny that tou are a honourable citizen ... Just I see, read that you are proud to practice sexism and a masonic apartheid.
It is typical too that you think as a "concession" that women can work in freemasonery ... Women can practice, you have nothing to concede !
Apparently you ave not practiced in a non-sexist lodge. So, how can you compare or criticize ?
I have been 18 years in sexist-masonery, I still work in sexist lodges. And 10 years in non-sexist lodges. So I KNOW both. There are rich(and poor) exchanges in both of them ! When you practice masonery, you don't care about the sex.
All of my brothers who have left the sexist masonery say the same : They were conditionned ...
Another point is that men like to exchange dirty jokes during the meals. I can ensure you that women too. So, no trouble with that ! The ones who like that will go on. The only thing is they risk to have a reply from female freemasons ... And many are not very couragous.
Apparently, you have missed something : Sexism and masonic aparteid is not definitive ! YOU CAN CHANGE and abandon this practice.  Army, police, some religions leave sexis ! YES, YOU CAN !
In freemasonery, in Europe, sexism is less and less strong : Even UGLE announce for 2017 that they wont ban visiting female lodges !


----------



## Joaben

coachn said:


> *York ritual is not required. Only common sense. * However, if I am dealing with someone who can't comprehend the basics, it's a whole different hand-basket.
> What you take to be arrogance is your inability to comprehend the basics.
> Good.  Set that bar higher then and have at it.  We could all use an improvement in your contribution.


You demonstrate your typical arrogance : You decide that your auto-proclaimed "common sense" prevail on masonic rituals to decide "how do you recognize a freemason" : It gives an idea where you place what you pretend freemasonery.
OK !... as ALL arrogant, you pretend other one not at your level ... strange freemasonery ... Dont you sing the closing ode : "Humbly now ..." ?
Have you forgotten too that HUMILITY is another value of freemasonery ?
Apparently, you have completly lost any reflexion : Of course previous white south african gov. was racist ! Did I say you are ? No ! I do not know your position and do not want to know !
You apply clearly sexism and claim an ban not on black people but on women in freemasonery. Do you undersatnd the meaning of the word "example" just to help you to understand teh meaning of "apartheid" ? It is not a question of "right" (courts will decide if needed) but of morality and image of our freemasonery !
"I ignore the basics of nothing, " you said ... any freemason accept that he does not know everything and he can progress. Arrogant, no !
It is a fact that you are enable to answer a so basic question in freemasonery.
Before I put the bar higher for you, try to pass the question above of entered apprentice degree.
Freemasonery is "progression" another thing you learn at entered apprentice level. Forgotten too ?
Do you think what yo display here is '"sane", coach n ?


----------



## coachn

> You demonstrate your typical arrogance : You decide that your auto-proclaimed "common sense" prevail on masonic rituals to decide "how do you recognize a freemason" : It gives an idea where you place what you pretend freemasonery.
> OK !... as ALL arrogant, you pretend other one not at your level ... strange freemasonery ... Dont you sing the closing ode : "Humbly now ..." ?
> Have you forgotten too that HUMILITY is another value of freemasonery ?
> Apparently, you have completly lost any reflexion : Of course previous white south african gov. was racist ! Did I say you are ? No ! I do not know your position and do not want to know !
> You apply clearly sexism and claim an ban not on black people but on women in freemasonery. Do you undersatnd the meaning of the word "example" just to help you to understand teh meaning of "apartheid" ? It is not a question of "right" (courts will decide if needed) but of morality and image of our freemasonery !
> "I ignore the basics of nothing, " you said ... any freemason accept that he does not know everything and he can progress. Arrogant, no !
> It is a fact that you are enable to answer a so basic question in freemasonery.
> Before I put the bar higher for you, try to pass the question above of entered apprentice degree.
> Freemasonery is "progression" another thing you learn at entered apprentice level. Forgotten too ?
> Do you think what yo display here is '"sane", coach n ?


Arrogance has to do with self-importance and believing the rules don't apply to the self.  The focus has never been upon me or the rules applying to me.  It has from the beginning been about the unimportance of your dribble and how your imagination has caused you to rant and rave in superfluous and harmful ways.
Your latest response continues this trend.
When you start making sense, I shall continue.  Until such time, I shall go back to ignoring your dribble.  I no longer desire to exercise my communication skills if there is nothing new that you have to offer.  Time to move on.


----------



## Joaben

@coachn : You decide yourself that my comments are "nimportance of your dribble and how your imagination has caused you to rant and rave in superfluous and harmful ways."
This is typically arrogance ! I am a man, freemason and you have no right to pretend be above me !
Between normal and respectable humans(what we can expect from masons) we can have different views, exchange thes different view and confront them no to our own pride but to common background : Rituals are in this case. 
If for you "making sense" mean accepting your arrogance, it is NO ! It is my duty to bring you to a masonic plan where you respect your interlocutor at the minimum as a human. Do what you like with your "communication skills" ? Do you proceed the same way in normal life ?
You choosed to place the discussion by denigratng, close to insulting, coachn !
I undestand that you do not accept the focus on You and your behavior in this discussion. Try not to focus on me(or what you speculate on me or libel) instead of my comments  and discussion can be fine.
I just write that practice of banning women from common masonic work, practice current in most of the lodges which pretend be "regular" is something wrong for masonery in general and clearly sexism and apartheid. We can discuss these affirmations.


----------



## Bloke

LOL


----------



## Ripcord22A

This dude is starting to piss me off.  Im not sexist, I dont discriminate against anyone.  Not allowing women in to a meeting is no different then a business having requirements for employment.  he keeps talking about "how do you recogniwse a freemason?"  well first that person must have certain qualifications and one of them is that of being a MAN, freeborn and bearing the tounge of good report!  Also that you are not present at the making of a woman, little boy or old man a mason.

He says that he continues to work in "sexist" lodges and non "sexist" lodges....so has he broken is obligation and sits in a clandestine lodge knowinly while holding his membership in a traditional lodge?  GTFOH.  Sorry for the rant brothers!


----------



## Joaben

When we come back on a more positive view instead of protestations of sexists who want to maintain a regressive approach that army, police, school, religions have left, what do we live in non-sexist lodges ?
Having spent most of my masonic time in sexist freemasonery and some years in non sexist, I must confess that there is no real difference. We work exactly the same.
Are there any affairs between "brothers (male and female)" ? Yes it can happen ... on the same way than in enterprise or between same-genre in mono-genre lodges.
The main change is we are not embarassed to face other people who can find strange that an organisation which have driven so many progress in the society, the democracy and mutual acceptance can carry so awful principles to ban half of the humanity !
Is "regularity" a good pretext for masonic sexism ? No ! Regularity have evolved and still evolve. In Antient Landmarks, slavery was present ! it is nomore the case.


----------



## coachn

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> This dude is starting to piss me off.  Im not sexist, I dont discriminate against anyone.  Not allowing women in to a meeting is no different then a business having requirements for employment.  he keeps talking about "how do you recogniwse a freemason?"  well first that person must have certain qualifications and one of them is that of being a MAN, freeborn and bearing the tounge of good report!  *Also that you are not present at the making of a woman, little boy or old man a mason.*
> 
> He says that he continues to work in "sexist" lodges and non "sexist" lodges....so has he broken is obligation and sits in a clandestine lodge knowinly while holding his membership in a traditional lodge?  GTFOH.  Sorry for the rant brothers!


You forgot "madmen and fools!"


----------



## Joaben

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> This dude is starting to piss me off.  Im not sexist, I dont discriminate against anyone. !


Your insults proves your weakness in arguments.
To ban women from your lodge is, by definition, sexual discrimination. 
The fact you talk not to your interlocutor but about a "he" shows your masonic morality  ...
Apparently you do not know thes basics of "how to recognize a freemason" ... because you talk about candidates... which is not the subject.
Are you sleeping during ceremonys of initiation ?
I understand that you dont not accept to face reality ... or the mirror (Scotish Antient Rite)...


----------



## Joaben

coachn said:


> You forgot "madmen and fools!"


 Incredible to read such ignorance of the basics at the level of "entered apprentice" ... Apprently, you pretend to "coach" ??? what ? not masonery, I hope !


----------



## Ripcord22A

coachn said:


> You forgot "madmen and fools!"


 I left those out on purpose.  didnt want to seem like i was insulting him.

@coachn what is "masonery"

I didnt insult anyone.  I wonder if this dude has ever told anyone NO in his entire life.  cause if he has isnt that discrimination?


----------



## Ripcord22A

Damnit....He drug me in.  I said i wasnt going to engage.....AHHHH !@!!!


----------



## coachn

> Incredible to read such ignorance of the basics at the level of "entered apprentice" ... Apprently, you pretend to "coach" ??? what ? not masonery, I hope !


<snicker> Your hope was just dashed upon the rocks of despair.


----------



## coachn

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I left those out on purpose.  didnt want to seem like i was insulting him.
> 
> @coachn what is "masonery"
> 
> I didnt insult anyone.  I wonder if this dude has ever told anyone NO in his entire life.  cause if he has isnt that discrimination?


You can't satisfy a disturbed mind committed to reject reason.


----------



## Joaben

coachn said:


> You can't satisfy a disturbed mind committed to reject reason.


To qualify "reason" your arrogance and inability to answer a so basic question "how ...." is just a manifestation of your pride. Are you skilled in mental illness or is it just another bragging ? To treat as "mad" other ones is typically kown in psychiatric hospitals ... I understand that the mirror showing your incompetence is difficult for you as well as the puerility to  display your books ...
I am sorry to write that but you are so agressive and disdainful ... You'd better choose to accept a respectuous discussion, even  if it upset your certainties...
@jdMAD The "he" replies on the field you choos in more moderate than your insults.
Educated people when they say "NO" add "WHY" ... and if you say because you are a woman, it is, by definition sexism. Hard ! this mirror ...
Some more insults to compensate ??? Even in this case when you insult, you face your target, not insult "he" ...
OK ! I understand better what drives this sexist militant in masonery ...


----------



## Ripcord22A

Im still trying to figure out what masonery is.  it may very well be sexist but my Masonry isnt.  So if someone turned you down for a jpob because you werent qualified to be a stripper at a strip club is that sexist?  becasue you have a penis you cant dance on a pole at a gentelmens club......thats sexist, i dont see people lining up to whine and complain about that.  What about the fact that because I was a white male from a middle calss family with good but not great grades I had practically zero chance of getting scholarships.....thats discrimination....what about the fact that you are trying to force us, Freemasons from GLs that follow the Ancient landmarks, and are a private group, to change our criteria.  I dont see colleges forcing frats and sororities to allow members of the opposite sex.  Also what about forcing private business(bakery) to back a cake for a gay marriage that violates their religious beliefs?  everytime you FORCE someone or some entity to changed their beliefs/actions cause it offends someone else you are offending the people being forced to change.  Its ok to be offensive as long as its against men, christians and heterosexuals i guess.


----------



## Joaben

@jmad When yo accept to think, there is matter of dicussion. sexism is a WORD which has a meaning described in dictionnary. And regarding these definition your pratice in masonery is, factually, sexist. Why ? Because you do not apply masonic criteria (clearly described in rituals), but personal feelings. When I invite you to to think abaout masonics ("how do you ...") which is exactly relevant in this situation, that's the point !   Your examples are typical : You refer to activities where the presence of penis or breast can be an handicap. Is it the case in freemasonery ? NO ! In sport, nature of male-female makes them compete in different categories as well as junior or senior ... Is it the case in freemasonery ? NO ! Is masonery a competition ? 
In fact who force, impose ? In non-sexist masonery is it mandatory to have women in lodges ? NO ! But in sexist masonic organisation they FORCE lodges to sexism !
So do not try to play the victims ! It is exatcly the contrary !
In fact, the real subject is WHY your organisations IMPOSE sexism to all lodges !
And you have never explained what frighten you so much to practice masonery with women ... fear they should be better ?
What's this "blabla" about christians, heterosexuals, men ???


----------



## Ripcord22A

Im not frightned.  but Im still trying to figure out what Masonery is.  Lodges are not Forced to do anything.  If they want to be a member of their jurisdictions GL then yes they must meet certain criteria.  Recently the military has opened all jobs to females.  from what i have heard the standards have been lowered so that females can pass, i have no proff of this but that is the murmurings.  Also if womed were allowed I dont think my wife would have allowed me to join.  Also I dont think I would have wanted too, If i wanted a mix gender experience i would have joined the elks, or moose or IF i wanted something similar FreeMASONRY i would have joined the IOOF.  No one is being forced to do anything.  If women want to join freemasonry they can, just not my lodge or GL.  I dont want to be a member of that group.  WHAT RIGHT do you have to FORCE ME TO BE?  Also Im just curious how are women prepared as fas as what bodie parts are bare?  I might want to "accidently" be present at the raising of a woman of they are prepared the same as we are....lol


----------



## Joaben

To figure out "what masonery is" it is better to read your rituals, listen at what is said in ceremonys than talking about dancers. 
Masonery is done in lodges, not in GL. GL are there to SERVE the lodges not to dictate ! In 1717, the grand lodge of London was founded by 4 lodges to serve them. 
Does not your wife accept you meet females in your job ? How ca yu asses how you should feel in a non-sexist lodge if you have never been there . I have ! And I can tell you that all your objections fall when you really see intead of fantasming.
It's strange that you talk about "forcing" ! Nobody wants to force you ! But why do you want to force other lodges to be sexist as you ? Why does it matter to you that other lodges meet pacifically in teh same GL than you without sexism ?
Typical voyeurism ... One of the reason demonstrating why sexist masonery is wrong ...  Nobody has told you that eveything in masonery is symbolic ? even a bare breast ?


----------



## Ripcord22A

as for the blabla about christians, heteros and men...... It seems that you can force those groups to change their beliefs and practices but if you try to make a woman, LGBT person or nonChristian to accept something other then they hold to be true you are a biggot and are slammed for it.

Just because I dont want to be a member of a FRATernal organisation that admits women doesnt make me sexist and becasue I think some one that gets their penis chopped off and truned in to a vagina is still a male doesnt make be a biggot.  We are not Sexist.  Here is the dictionary defination since you keep bringing it up....

Sexist:The belief that one sex (usually the male) is naturally superior to the other and should dominate most important areas of political, economic, and social life(dictionary.com)
Sexist:unfair treatment of people because of their sex(merrium-webster)

Neither of those definitions are being done but not allowing women to join our GLs.  There are other GLs that they can join, so it fair.  we dont believe that women are subordinate to men or anyof that.  you point is notvalid.

UGLE even acknowledges Female and mixed GLs exist and that their work is regular but does not recognise them.  again thats not sexist.  your point is not valid.

Let me ask you this....there is a transgender(male to female) mixed martial arts fighter, it lived its whole life as a male untill several years ago made the "transition"  should real females be forced to this person, they dont have to accept the fight but if their reason for not taking the fight is that they dont fell safe fighting some one the "used" to be a man they will get run outta town?  Or what about the bathroom debate...should people who dont agree with people who "identify" as the toher sex be FORCED to share a bathroom with them?  I dont care what you associate with...let someone with a penis or someone that used to have apenis walk in to a bathroom with my daughter and we are gonna have problems......


----------



## Ripcord22A

does that make me a biggot cause i dont want my daught sharing a bathroom or lockerroom with someone that is so confused that they think that are a woman?  maybe they get even more confused and think they can touch my daughter with out her permission?\\

When i was in HS if they would have told us that if you "IDENTIF" as a girl you can use their locker room...the next day I wolda been Jonathina and been in that locker room so fast....lol


----------



## Joaben

Change beliefs and pracices is someting common. I have no power to force but try to convince to abandon these archaic and shameful practices.
Some people are christians an become other religion or non-religious ! That's life.
YOUR choice is yours ! Simply the fact you choose an organisation because it bans women is obviously sexist ... Why dont you accept this reality ? It does not make you a criminal ! Banning of women is sexism ... does not matter your personal choice...
No  ! you distort the definition : Sexism is only "discrimination based on sex" no matter if you feel superior ! Yes ! It is unfair to treat people that way ! That's my (and many other humans) opinion ! May be you are happy and proud to behave this way.
I do not talk about subordination ... but if you like : "accepted women lodges" ... really awful !
UGLE progress and remove more and more sexism. Recognition between GL is more a political matter. If you want to see this kind of silly practices around recognition in France : A freemason can pass from "Bien aimé Frere"(Welle loved Brother)  well accepted  to a non-mason banned in a minute through a break in agreement at the top of the GLs...
It is totally ridiculous, when you know that FM brings high-values, self-contrôl, reason, sanity !
*Apparently you do not understand that masonery has nothing to do with sport, competiton, sex, nudity. As well as jobs, bridge, chess.*


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

Proverbs 18:2 - Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions.


----------



## Joaben

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Proverbs 18:2 - Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions.


as you prefer commenting the commentators, instead of the subject, it's a way to appreciate fooliness.


----------



## Ripcord22A

What is this Masonery you speak of?
Furthermore how do i distort the meaning?  you are the one distorting it to fit your own opinion.  I am going right off the dictionanry definition.
Furthermore you didnt answer any of my questions.

Furthermore your right YOU cant force anyone to do anything.

Furthermore, Governments can and do, especially when it comes to men, whites and christians.  Look at the case in Oregon where a small independant bakery was forced in to bankruptcy becasue they were sued by a Gay couple that wanted this bakery to bake their wedding cake.  The Bakery Refused as it was against their religion(which is protected by the US CONSTITUTION BILL OF RIGHTS) and were sued and lost to the tune of several hundred thousand USDs. Look at hobby lobby and their fight with Obama care and the birth control stipulation, again an org owned by a christian being forced to do something that is against their beliefs.  no one is being forced to work at Hobby Lobby.  Look at the case with the Gay preacher that tried to defame Whole Foods by writing a gay slur on a cake he bought, when the baker is Gay.  All these groups try to force their beliefs down others throats.

Furthermore, as a Freemason I have never seen a fellow freemason, other then COs, try to push their beliefs of what is right or wrong down someone elses throat.

Firthermore, I am not discriminating at all.  The organisation that I belong to is a private club, there are pleanty of private womans clubs that dont allow men.  heres one....Http://www.curves.com  are they sexist cause they dont allow men to join their gym?


----------



## coachn

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> ... I have never seen a fellow freemason, other then COs, try to push their beliefs of what is right or wrong down someone elses throat.


Me too.  Out of all the people who profess to practice some form of Freemasonic Order, I find that it is only the co-masons, and more specifically, the males of this order, that tend to militantly proselytize their philosophies and righteously condemn those who won't drink their Kool-aid.

*And the icing on the cake is when they don't get their way, they cry foul, claim victimhood (even though they are most contrivingly violent and disrespectfully manipulating in their ways) and make continual effort to bully their way further, dismissing relevant facts over wishful thinkings.*


----------



## Warrior1256

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> F i w NOT b prs at the m of a WOMAN a M.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Agreed.


coachn said:


> Yes, male-craft is a fraternity.  Female-craft is a sorority.  Co-masonry is mixed.  You join the version that best suits YOUR interests.


I have no problem with this. Live and let live, I say. I have a problem with people denouncing regular Masonry because it excludes women.


----------



## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> I find that it is only the co-masons, and more specifically, the males of this order, that tend to militantly proselytize their philosophies and righteously condemn those who won't drink their Kool-aid.


Absolutely!


----------



## Joaben

@jmd I understand that you are furious facing the reality of definitions of sexism and it apllies to your behavior ! I only post the dictionnaries definition. You can deny ... it wont change the reality. In a way it is good that you are ashamed to realize that this behavior is sexist.
Apparently for people like the pretended "coach", no arguments but opinions to discredit not the opinions, but the persons classified through his fantasms as mad, fool, etc ... ! It is totally absurd ! If you read your tricentenary rituals (instead of chattering about gay baker or bigottery totally irrelevant of the subject) you should read that FM is UNIVERSAL ! And that FM are ONE PEOPLE on the surface of the earth, sharing SAME RULES. Your categorisations have nothing to do with freemasonery but your social, political life.
I know that for some of you, pride and arrogance have replaced our masonic texts.
On this forum I expect to exchange with freemasons who found their opinions on the masonic rituals, not on their religious beliefs or sexual practices or self-opinion..
Apprently, you deny right to some masons to express their opinions about women in freemasonery (the subject) and especially to the ones who practice Freemasonery with women and who normally know the REAL situation ... Is'it silly ?
Apparently, you defend your right to militate for your sexism and deny the right to express opposite opinions ?
OK ! it is easy to insult, as you do ... Proof of weakness.
You ave to consider A FACT : Sexism is mandatory in the lodges accepting to obey your organisations, women-men are not mandatory in non-sexist masonery.
So, dont play the "victims", please !


----------



## Joaben

Warrior1256 said:


> I have a problem with people denouncing regular Masonry because it excludes women.


 I congratulate you that you realize there is a problem ! But the problem is not the ones who denounces and exhibit YOUR problem.. You prefer your head in the sand ?


----------



## coachn

Warrior1256 said:


> I find that it is only the co-masons, and more specifically, the males of this order, that tend to militantly proselytize their philosophies and righteously condemn those who won't drink their Kool-Aid.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely!
Click to expand...

And, like squirrels, the more you feed them, the nuttier they get.


----------



## Joaben

What you practice is called usually trolling ... How to provocate by insult, provocations to flee the subject ...
Sign you are in a mood ! Be bullies of forum if you like ... If shows the way you coach ... what the purpose of your coaching ? teaching how to discredit ?


----------



## Ripcord22A

U didnt post the definitions...i did....and you twisted it for your own arguement. Im not ashamed of anything about MASONRY.
However i am still trying to figure out what MASONERY is.....

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


----------



## coachn

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> U didnt post the definitions...i did....and you twisted it for your own arguement. Im not ashamed of anything about MASONRY.
> However i am still trying to figure out what MASONERY is.....


----------



## Ripcord22A

Haha...i love bevis and butthead

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----------



## dfreybur

I wondered what this discussion was about so I clicked the "Show ignored content" link at the bottom of the page.  Ah ha.

Click username.  In the list of options is a radio button marked Ignore.  problem solved.  I have a very small number of posters ignored but it significantly increases my reading experience.


----------



## Warrior1256

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Im not ashamed of anything about MASONRY.


I'm with you!


----------



## Warrior1256

Joaben said:


> I congratulate you that you realize there is a problem ! But the problem is not the ones who denounces and exhibit YOUR problem.. You prefer your head in the sand ?


Because I disagree with you on this subject? Then, yes! I'm a proud "head sander".


----------



## Warrior1256

Joaben said:


> What you practice is called usually trolling ... How to provocate by insult, provocations to flee the subject ...


Seems to me that this describes your actions perfectly.


----------



## coachn

dfreybur said:


> I wondered what this discussion was about so I clicked the "Show ignored content" link at the bottom of the page.  Ah ha.
> 
> Click username.  In the list of options is a radio button marked Ignore.  problem solved.  I have a very small number of posters ignored but it significantly increases my reading experience.


Me too!  But every once in a while I engage to do my occasional tire rotation and oil change.  It requires dealing with a few nuts and screwy things, but it's worth it... at least sometimes.


----------



## Ripcord22A

@dfreybur hope im not the one youve ignored...lol

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----------



## Ripcord22A

So Joaben has only been a member here since nov 6 15 amd only has 56 posts, has never started a thread and all of his comments are in threads similar to this one.  I smell a troll.  I bet this dude isnt even a Freemason, that ones for you coach, he probably got blackballed cause he wants to let women in our boys club

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----------



## coachn

This is post number 223.  Not to be confused with post number 222 or the one that follows that is 223+1 otherwise known as 224.  Please do not confuse it with other number combinations such as 232 or 322, which are terribly fine numbers in their own right, but they are definitely not the number to be considered an appropriate choice for the existing combination needed to fulfill the necessary sequence in this thread.  Once again, that is number 223.


----------



## Joaben

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> U didnt post the definitions...i did....and you twisted it for your own arguement. Im not ashamed of anything about MASONRY.
> However i am still trying to figure out what MASONERY is.....


What is THAT : http://www.myfreemasonry.com/threads/women-in-masonry.26915/page-9#post-160411 ?
And you hope to figure out "WHAT masonery is" on an internet forum ? Nobody has told you that masonic ceremonies is the best way ?
@Warrior1256 "it is not me it is you " is another way used by trolls. >Apparently, I write about the subject "women in ferremasonery" ... you write about commentators all you dedain ... that's typically trolling.. Coachn is the sam  ! In distress of arguments on the subject, he gos on pirouette, posting jokes level 0, happy of himself... That's probably kind of coaching he coachs ... I am really sorry that you fall at this level ... Is it result of sexist parctices ?


----------



## dlacaille

Brilliant @coachn 

There are a lot of lodge types to pick from. Each is unique and people will always find one that meets their needs. Male-only meets my needs. This is not sexist. If I wanted both genders I'd go comasonry. If women want both genders, they choose comasonry. If they want female-only they choose that. As it stands we have a PERFECT situation, everyone gets what they want. UNLESS what they want is to control others. That. Will. Not. Happen.



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----------



## Joaben

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I bet this dude isnt even a Freemason ....


Logical :  Apprently you even do not not know the degree "enterd apprentice" where it is given "how you recognize a freemason" ... So it is logical, viewed your level that you do not recognize freemasons ... you do not know how...
Are you happy to have brought this serious subject there ?


----------



## Joaben

dlacaille said:


> Brilliant @coachn
> 
> There are a lot of lodge types to pick from. Each is unique and people will always find one that meets their needs. Male-only meets my needs. This is not sexist. If I wanted both genders I'd go comasonry. If women want both genders, they choose comasonry. If they want female-only they choose that. As it stands we have a PERFECT situation, everyone gets what they want. UNLESS what they want is to control others. That. Will. Not. Happen.


 This not the question ...
Apprently, sexist militant defend their practice telling that's their freedom to do it ...
OK ! taking this basis, why your organisation FORCE, IMPOSE to all their lodges sexism.
WHy do you bother that other lodges in your organisation should be non-sexist ? That's the point !


----------



## coachn

dlacaille said:


> Brilliant @coachn


Thanks Bro.

I pondered that post for some time.  I went deep down in my soul and went against some pretty strong stereotypical upbringing too.  You know how number training can brainwash even the most conscientious among us.  Yeah.... I know the number 223 has been taken and accepted as sexist by those who are fixated upon the subject; the poor souls.  I like to think thought that it's a pretty neutral number as sex goes.  Although, I could see it becoming sexier, with a little mood lighting and nice background music; but not sexist per say.  All things being equal, I chose that number because I felt relatively uncomfortable being around 222 or 224, so I challenged myself and stepped into the mix.  They are definitely sexist though and they should do something to add to their number involvement, maybe if they just added 1 to their value to became odder then they currently are.  Even so, those who want to include 223 in all this are simply not stable in the head as far as I am concerned.  Come on now... 223 sexist?  give me a break!  It's odd, but it ain't sexist!


----------



## Ripcord22A

Joaben said:


> What is THAT : http://www.myfreemasonry.com/threads/women-in-masonry.26915/page-9#post-160411 ?
> And you hope to figure out "WHAT masonery is" on an internet forum ? Nobody has told you that masonic ceremonies is the best way ?
> @Warrior1256 "it is not me it is you " is another way used by trolls. >Apparently, I write about the subject "women in ferremasonery" ... you write about commentators all you dedain ... that's typically trolling.. Coachn is the sam  ! In distress of arguments on the subject, he gos on pirouette, posting jokes level 0, happy of himself... That's probably kind of coaching he coachs ... I am really sorry that you fall at this level ... Is it result of sexist parctices ?


My bad...i didnt see that post..u did post them but u still twist the definitions to fit ur rant!

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----------



## Ripcord22A

Joaben said:


> And you hope to figure out "WHAT masonery is" on an internet forum ? Nobody has told you that masonic ceremonies is the best way ?


Yes i do hope to find out what masonery is on an internet forum as ive never heard of it before....also I am 1million% sure there is not a single recognized or unrecognized Masonic ritual that will teach me what masonery is.


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----------



## Ripcord22A

Joaben said:


> This not the question ...
> Apprently, sexist militant defend their practice telling that's their freedom to do it ...
> OK ! taking this basis, why your organisation FORCE, IMPOSE to all their lodges sexism.
> WHy do you bother that other lodges in your organisation should be non-sexist ? That's the point !


You are the one being militant...not us.  We are saying you do your thing we will do ours...you are comparing us to the South African Govt.

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----------



## Ripcord22A

Joaben said:


> Logical :  Apprently you even do not not know the degree "enterd apprentice"


No I have never heard of this degree



Joaben said:


> where it is given "how you recognize a freemason" ...



 Again I am positive that the degree you speak of doesnt tell any person how to recognize a Freemason



Joaben said:


> So it is logical, viewed your level that you do not recognize freemasons ... you do not know how...



There is no way just by looking at a person to know if they are a Freemason or not.  Even if that person knows the signs tokens and words.  Untill you have sat in open lodge or the Man has been vouched for by someone you have sat in lodge with you dont know that they are a Freemason or not.


----------



## coachn




----------



## Ripcord22A

Gotta love Bobby!  I was sad when they killed him off

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----------



## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> Me too!  But every once in a while I engage to do my occasional tire rotation and oil change.  It requires dealing with a few nuts and screwy things, but it's worth it... at least sometimes.


Lol....One of these days I'm going to have to bill you for computer repairs if I am taking a drink of coffee or tea while reading your posts.


----------



## Warrior1256

Joaben said:


> I am really sorry that you fall at this level ... Is it result of sexist parctices ?


LOL!!!! No, It's a matter of belonging to the form of Masonry that I want to belong to. You can belong to what ever form you want, I couldn't care less. Why do you get so spastic? A line from a movie comes to mind...."Lighten up Francis". <chuckle>


----------



## coachn

Warrior1256 said:


> Lol....One of these days I'm going to have to bill you for computer repairs if I am taking a drink of coffee or tea while reading your posts.


----------



## Bloke

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Again I am positive that the degree you speak of doesnt tell any person how to recognize a Freemason



Ours does, and used the word "recognise".... I will PM you.


----------



## Dontrell Stroman

Glen Cook said:


> Yes, I am LDS.


Is it true Joseph Smith was a freemason ?


----------



## Dontrell Stroman

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> No I have never heard of this degree
> 
> 
> 
> Again I am positive that the degree you speak of doesnt tell any person how to recognize a Freemason
> 
> 
> 
> There is no way just by looking at a person to know if they are a Freemason or not.  Even if that person knows the signs tokens and words.  Untill you have sat in open lodge or the Man has been vouched for by someone you have sat in lodge with you dont know that they are a Freemason or not.


Why do you believe the only way to actually tell if someone is a freemason is to sit in a lodge with them  or have someone vouch for ?


----------



## Glen Cook

Travelling Man91 said:


> Is it true Joseph Smith was a freemason ?



Yes. Joseph's participation in the fraternity was rather limited, as shown in History of the Church and his journals. A timeline helps demonstrate this: while the Kirtland Temple was dedicated on March 27, 1836, he was not made a Master Mason until March 16, 1842. He was martyred in 1844.


----------



## tldubb

coachn said:


> View attachment 5045


Yes! " Supernatural " one of my favorite shows!


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----------



## Ripcord22A

Bloke said:


> Ours does, and used the word "recognise".... I will PM you.


@Bloke go back and look at his post that i replied to.  Just like he keeps talking about MASONERY he 

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----------



## Ripcord22A

Travelling Man91 said:


> Why do you believe the only way to actually tell if someone is a freemason is to sit in a lodge with them  or have someone vouch for ?


Because that is THE only way to be positive.  They can know the grips and words and even show you a dues card but until strict trial due examination or proper info you cant be positive!

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----------



## Warrior1256

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Because that is THE only way to be positive.  They can know the grips and words and even show you a dues card but until strict trial due examination or proper info you cant be positive!
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Absolutely right. In Kentucky it is required that you have actually sat in lodge with a person before you can vouch for them.


----------



## Ripcord22A

I assume that these other Brothers are referring to behavior and actions of a man, and ones ability to interact with another amd determine that he is a Freemason before actually knowing.  I say Poppycock.  As i have interacted with plenty of men that displayed the characteristics of being a MASON but were not....and those that were that didnt display the characteristics

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----------



## Dontrell Stroman

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I assume that these other Brothers are referring to behavior and actions of a man, and ones ability to interact with another amd determine that he is a Freemason before actually knowing.  I say Poppycock.  As i have interacted with plenty of men that displayed the characteristics of being a MASON but were not....and those that were that didnt display the characteristics
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


How many freemasons would you estimate that you have sat in Lodge with ?


----------



## phulseapple

What Grand Lodge and Lodge does this Joaben guy allegedly belong to?


----------



## coachn

phulseapple said:


> What Grand Lodge and Lodge does this Joaben guy allegedly belong to?





 

Cue Crickets...


----------



## Ripcord22A

Travelling Man91 said:


> How many freemasons would you estimate that you have sat in Lodge with ?


Idk...maybe 100


----------



## Bloke

Travelling Man91 said:


> How many freemasons would you estimate that you have sat in Lodge with ?



I dont know - but it would be over 1,000


----------



## Dontrell Stroman

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Idk...maybe 100


So you can only vouch for 100 freemasons right ? Do you believe that half the men you associate with on the app/ blog are freemasons ? So what happens when you see a brother mason in distress that you have never sat in Lodge with ? Do you say we'll I don't actually know if he is a freemason so I'm not going to help ? Just trying to understand, maybe we do things a little different in my jurisdiction.


----------



## coachn

Dues card, valid ID, a lodge directory and a few targeted questions, unless I have sat in lodge with him. And "yes", I do know some jurisdictions don't have dues cards.


----------



## Glen Cook

Travelling Man91 said:


> So you can only vouch for 100 freemasons right ? Do you believe that half the men you associate with on the app/ blog are freemasons ? So what happens when you see a brother mason in distress that you have never sat in Lodge with ? Do you say we'll I don't actually know if he is a freemason so I'm not going to help ? Just trying to understand, maybe we do things a little different in my jurisdiction.


I wonder if we apply a different standard of recognition  between performing a charitable act, and conversing on the secrets of Freemasonry?


----------



## Zack

Glen Cook said:


> I wonder if we apply a different standard of recognition  between performing a charitable act, and conversing on the secrets of Freemasonry?



Yes.  At least I do.  And I think we should.


----------



## Ripcord22A

Travelling Man91 said:


> So you can only vouch for 100 freemasons right ? Do you believe that half the men you associate with on the app/ blog are freemasons ? So what happens when you see a brother mason in distress that you have never sat in Lodge with ? Do you say we'll I don't actually know if he is a freemason so I'm not going to help ? Just trying to understand, maybe we do things a little different in my jurisdiction.


So by distress im asuming that you mean about to be in physical harm?  Cause if so im gonna help a person no matter what.  If you mean financial then ill direct them to the lodge secretary or almoner of the AASR Valley.

There are some on here that i believe to be freemasons and some i know for a fact are not and some im not sure.  But as bro Glenn said vouching for in lodge is differnt then preforming a charitable act......


----------



## Joaben

One point wich demonstrate nthe incohrerence of sexis masonery (depite their arrogance or insults ...) :

They pretend and pretext their sexism abour "regularity" to antient customs and old charges.
On the same time they don't deny that women can be freemasons. They just want they "don't mason" with them.
It is totally incoherent. If you pretend to follow Old Charges, Antient landmarks, Women can not be freemasons !
So the pretext "regularity" of the sexism of your organisation falls ! 
But the capacity of insult, reject, discreditate freemasons ... you are unable to regonize ... being apparently ignorant of the tricentenary process...
If you choosed not to play by arrogance, insults, there should be matter of discussion on this subject. But you see more focus on discredidating your interlocutor.


----------



## Joaben

coachn said:


> Dues card, valid ID, a lodge directory and a few targeted questions, unless I have sat in lodge with him. And "yes", I do know some jurisdictions don't have dues cards.


Apprently total ignorant of the basics of freemasonery ... stated for every initiate at the 1rst degree... And you pretend coach !!!


----------



## dfreybur

Travelling Man91 said:


> How many freemasons would you estimate that you have sat in Lodge with ?



Considering that Annual Communication at GL are tiled events, a lot.  Vastly more than I can remember especially given that many Brothers go through the line and don't go back to GL so only some become regulars.

That's in addition to relocations, attending lodges in assorted districts, visits and so on.


----------



## Ripcord22A

Joaben said:


> One point wich demonstrate nthe incohrerence of sexis masonery (depite their arrogance or insults ...) :
> 
> They pretend and pretext their sexism abour "regularity" to antient customs and old charges.
> On the same time they don't deny that women can be freemasons. They just want they "don't mason" with them.
> It is totally incoherent. If you pretend to follow Old Charges, Antient landmarks, Women can not be freemasons !
> So the pretext "regularity" of the sexism of your organisation falls !
> But the capacity of insult, reject, discreditate freemasons ... you are unable to regonize ... being apparently ignorant of the tricentenary process...
> If you choosed not to play by arrogance, insults, there should be matter of discussion on this subject. But you see more focus on discredidating your interlocutor.


But you keep insulting us!  Look in the mirrior man.  You are a typical liberal...."everyone that doesnt believe like you is wrong and must change, or we will shame them untill they do!"


----------



## Zack

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> But you keep insulting us!  Look in the mirrior man.  You are a typical liberal...."everyone that doesnt believe like you is wrong and must change, or we will shame them untill they do!"


 
I notice you put part of your postt in quotation marks.  Who are you quoting?


----------



## coachn

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> But you keep insulting us!  Look in the mirrior man.  You are a typical liberal...."everyone that doesnt believe like you is wrong and must change, or we will shame them untill they do!"


You're wasting your time Bro. 

The poster is caught in a groove of his own making and will likely die there once it scratches down to about 6 feet in depth. 

His behavior reminds me of the following quite by Thomas Paine:





That being said, I would be remiss in not posting the following:





and:


----------



## Ripcord22A

But I can't help myself!  Its soo much fun

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----------



## Brother JC

84 posts since the last time I looked...
I'll take "Ad Nauseam Arguments" for $200, Alex.


----------



## Warrior1256

phulseapple said:


> What Grand Lodge and Lodge does this Joaben guy allegedly belong to?


I'd like to know the answer to this also.


jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> But you keep insulting us!  Look in the mirrior man.  You are a typical liberal...."everyone that doesnt believe like you is wrong and must change, or we will shame them untill they do!"


Absolutely correct! "If you don't come around to my way of thinking then you are obviously sexist, , homophobic, bigoted, etc., etc., etc." The usual rant.


----------



## coachn

Brother JC said:


> 84 posts since the last time I looked...
> I'll take "Ad Nauseam Arguments" for $200, Alex.


You'll have to get in line behind me.


----------



## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> You'll have to get in line behind me.


<snicker snicker>


----------



## phulseapple

Joaben - Please advise what Lodge you are a member of and what jurisdiction it pays homage to.  I would like to research them as I find your words definitely un-masonic in nature and not one thing you are posting makes any sense.... Failure to provide what I ask for will prove whether or not you are worthy of the title you so adamantly claim you possess....


----------



## Warrior1256

phulseapple said:


> Joaben - Please advise what Lodge you are a member of and what jurisdiction it pays homage to.  I would like to research them as I find your words definitely un-masonic in nature and not one thing you are posting makes any sense.... Failure to provide what I ask for will prove whether or not you are worthy of the title you so adamantly claim you possess....


VERY GOOD!


----------



## phulseapple

24 plus hours and no reply from Joaben to my question....I will give him the benefit of the doubt and wait 24 more hours as this IS the second time I have asked what lodge he belongs to.  The cowan and eavesdropper meter is rising though.  Based on his previous replies, I suspect a clandestine or irregular member he is.


----------



## coachn

phulseapple said:


> 24 plus hours and no reply from Joaben to my question....I will give him the benefit of the doubt and wait 24 more hours as this IS the second time I have asked what lodge he belongs to.  The cowan and eavesdropper meter is rising though.  Based on his previous replies, I suspect a clandestine or irregular member he is.


*According to the forum indicator:*  Joaben was last seen:  Sunday at 4:11 AM 

*Also, according to the information on his profile:* He is a member of *Magna Carta* Lodge.  No number or country is indicated.


----------



## Winter

I started reading this thread out of curiosity when I saw the high post count.  I figured it must be a good discussion with that many pages.  Now I want those 15 minutes of my life back.  







Transmitted via my R5 astromech.


----------



## coachn

Winter said:


> I started reading this thread out of curiosity when I saw the high post count.  I figured it must be a good discussion with that many pages.  Now I want those 15 minutes of my life back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transmitted via my R5 astromech.


Take a number and get in line with the rest of us.


----------



## Warrior1256

phulseapple said:


> The cowan and eavesdropper meter is rising though. Based on his previous replies, I suspect a clandestine or irregular member he is.


Same here!


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## grayflannelsuit

Boy was I ever late to this party!


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## acjohnson53

Sista's got their on Chapter (OES), so leave them be, you got men there to keep the peace, like Golf(Guys Only Ladies Forbidden)they understand...LOL


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## Elexir

acjohnson53 said:


> Sista's got their on Chapter (OES), so leave them be, you got men there to keep the peace, like Golf(Guys Only Ladies Forbidden)they understand...LOL



OES dont exist everywhere though.


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## The Traveling Man

acjohnson53 said:


> Sista's got their on Chapter (OES), so leave them be, you got men there to keep the peace, like Golf(Guys Only Ladies Forbidden)they understand...LOL


OES is not Masonry. In most places outside of America OES is not recognized as a Masonic Appendant body, and Masons are prohibited from joining. Women wishing to be Masons will not benefit from OES.

Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Warrior1256

The Traveling Man said:


> OES is not Masonry. In most places outside of America OES is not recognized as a Masonic Appendant body, and Masons are prohibited from joining. Women wishing to be Masons will not benefit from OES.


True!


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## Dontrell Stroman

I bet our ancient brethern are rolling in their graves concerning issues that are being debated in freemasonry today.

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## Warrior1256

Travelling Man91 said:


> I bet our ancient brethern are rolling in their graves concerning issues that are being debated in freemasonry today.


Oh, I don't know. Compared to the problems Masonry has had in times past some of our past Brothers may view these problems as slightly boring.


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## BullDozer Harrell

Travelling Man91 said:


> I bet our ancient brethern are rolling in their graves concerning issues that are being debated in freemasonry today.
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS997 using My Freemasonry mobile app


Changing times, my brother. They had their social issues and we have ours. 

They can roll over, grumble a little bit and then go back to sleep.


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## The Traveling Man

BullDozer Harrell said:


> Changing times, my brother. They had their social issues and we have ours.
> 
> They can roll over, grumble a little bit and then go back to sleep.


I think our ancient Brethren (circa 1700s) changed things. Manuscripts written by our really ancient Brethren (circa 1400s) alluded to women being involved in Masonry. Not to mention the documented women involved prior to 1717. We're simply going back, or gaining a new appreciation and respect, for how things used to be ... So I definitely agree, they can roll over, grumble, and go right back to sleep.

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## Ripcord22A

The Traveling Man said:


> I think our ancient Brethren (circa 1700s) changed things. Manuscripts written by our really ancient Brethren (circa 1400s) alluded to women being involved in Masonry. Not to mention the documented women involved prior to 1717. We're simply going back, or gaining a new appreciation and respect, for how things used to be ... So I definitely agree, they can roll over, grumble, and go right back to sleep.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


Maybe involved in stone"masonry" but not Freemasonry.  Our institution did not exist that far back

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## The Traveling Man

Ripcord22A said:


> Maybe involved in stone"masonry" but not Freemasonry.  Our institution did not exist that far back
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


Right, thats why I used the word Masonry. But womem were definitely involved in Freemasonry prior to 1717.

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## BullDozer Harrell

The Traveling Man said:


> Right, thats why I used the word Masonry. But womem were definitely involved in Freemasonry prior to 1717.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


Sigh. Do you have any documentation?


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## The Traveling Man

BullDozer Harrell said:


> Sigh. Do you have any documentation?


There are a few good books on women in Masonry. "Haunted Chambers" and "On Holy Ground" by Karen Kidd.

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## BullDozer Harrell

The Traveling Man said:


> There are a few good books on women in Masonry. "Haunted Chambers" and "On Holy Ground" by Karen Kidd.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


Thanks for the titles. I'll give myself some time to check them out. 

Honestly she has a heavy burden of proof standard to meet. Maybe she has met or exceeded it in her books?


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## The Traveling Man

BullDozer Harrell said:


> Thanks for the titles. I'll give myself some time to check them out.
> 
> Honestly she has a heavy burden of proof standard to meet. Maybe she has met or exceeded it in her books?


Ok.. When you read Haunted Chambers turn to page 195 to see a picture of me in Lodge back when I was a Co-Mason.

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## coachn

http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-brother-asks-why-no-females.html


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## Ripcord22A

coachn said:


> http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-brother-asks-why-no-females.html


Boom! And there you have it Ladies and Gentlemen!  Plain and simple...no women cause we dont em,.  If you do go somewhere else!

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## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-brother-asks-why-no-females.html


Very good coachn. Most especially the part as to why we must continue to explain and justify this.


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## coachn

Well, in truth... it's not rocket surgery my Brothers. ;-)


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