# I'm nervous



## Derek Barclay (Jul 9, 2020)

I've initiated contact with a local lodge, and I believe they may invite me to hang out. However, I'm not a social guy, very anti-social actually, and I'm nervous about pursuing it. I'm also a self-described atheist, and I fear I may be wasting their time by even showing interest in joining. My philosophical convictions are constantly evolving, and I'd like to discuss things with them on the chance that maybe my beliefs can grow to become something of someone that they would want to fraternize with. But again I'm nervous, both generally and in the sense that my efforts may prove pointless.


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## Glen Cook (Jul 9, 2020)

Derek Barclay said:


> I've initiated contact with a local lodge, and I believe they may invite me to hang out. However, I'm not a social guy, very anti-social actually, and I'm nervous about pursuing it. I'm also a self-described atheist, and I fear I may be wasting their time by even showing interest in joining. My philosophical convictions are constantly evolving, and I'd like to discuss things with them on the chance that maybe my beliefs can grow to become something of someone that they would want to fraternize with. But again I'm nervous, both generally and in the sense that my efforts may prove pointless.


Our purpose is not to dissuade you from an atheistic position. 

Even if we enjoy fraternizing with you, we will regretfully decline to admit you to the order. 

If you are anti-social, I question whether you would find enjoyment in our meetings. 

That all sounds a little Debbie Downer, but it is candid.


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## Derek Barclay (Jul 9, 2020)

I was thinking that just having some conversations would help me to find better words to use to describe my beliefs, and in the process may find that I believe what they believe.

I am very selectively social. I frequent an old bar several times a month for drinking with good people and an acoustic campfire jam, though that's all been on hold for months now due to Covid (this may be the reason for me seeking other avenues of socializing). I suppose that level of socializing is equal to what Masons do. It's the idea of meeting strangers for no reason but to mingle and converse that seems odd to me.

Don't fell bad. I don't. I'm usually a downer. I try to forget about it but I've found myself drawn back to Freemasonry several times over the last 5 or 6 years.


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## Elexir (Jul 9, 2020)

Derek Barclay said:


> I was thinking that just having some conversations would help me to find better words to use to describe my beliefs, and in the process may find that I believe what they believe..



Clarify this please.
There is no special masonic belife but each member brings what he believes in.

Its not a place to find your faith in. Rather you have to have one before you join as you will have to choose a VSL.


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## Glen Cook (Jul 9, 2020)

Derek Barclay said:


> I was thinking that just having some conversations would help me to find better words to use to describe my beliefs, and in the process may find that I believe what they believe.
> 
> I am very selectively social. I frequent an old bar several times a month for drinking with good people and an acoustic campfire jam, though that's all been on hold for months now due to Covid (this may be the reason for me seeking other avenues of socializing). I suppose that level of socializing is equal to what Masons do. It's the idea of meeting strangers for no reason but to mingle and converse that seems odd to me.
> 
> Don't fell bad. I don't. I'm usually a downer. I try to forget about it but I've found myself drawn back to Freemasonry several times over the last 5 or 6 years.


Do you believe in a Supreme Being?  Yes or No. 

  I truly hope that a pleasant chat at the bar is not equal to what Masons do.  That is often one part of our relationship with our “brethren,” but surely not the sum of it.


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## Glen Cook (Jul 9, 2020)

Elexir said:


> Clarify this please.
> There is no special masonic belife but each member brings what he believes in.
> 
> Its not a place to find your faith in. Rather you have to have one before you join as you will have to choose a VSL.


We are in accord as to what one brings with him. Not all GLs require one to choose a VSL.


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## jermy Bell (Jul 10, 2020)

I understand the anti social part very well, I mostly worked in isolation for almost 11 years, between 9 and 14 hour days. I had one close friend I worked with.( I sandblasted locomotives and painted them) , I didn't socialize outside of work. So, when I was brought into the craft I was really worried especially when we traveled to other lodges, I didn't know these people but my father-in-law. Once I was introduced these men treated me like I had always belonged. And I am still after 5 years proud to call them my brother.as far as the whole believing in something that is a path that we all must walk alone and find our own answer to. Good luck.


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## Derek Barclay (Jul 10, 2020)

Elexir said:


> Clarify this please.
> There is no special masonic belife but each member brings what he believes in.
> 
> Its not a place to find your faith in. Rather you have to have one before you join as you will have to choose a VSL.



The belief in the supernatural. I'm wondering if what I believe is in line with a belief in the supernatural im just not able to articulate it. As of right now I dont believe that I believe in anything metaphysical. Or rather I believe in things that others claim are metaphysical but I call them physical.

What's VSL?


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## Elexir (Jul 10, 2020)

Derek Barclay said:


> The belief in the supernatural. I'm wondering if what I believe is in line with a belief in the supernatural im just not able to articulate it. As of right now I dont believe that I believe in anything metaphysical. Or rather I believe in things that others claim are metaphysical but I call them physical.
> 
> What's VSL?



You will have to decide that prior to joining.
The question is honestly straight forward: Do you or do you not belive in a supreme being?
If you belive you are free to join but if you dont then you cant join.

The work in freemasonry isnt to establish wheter or not there is a supreme being or what your belives are. Thats a journey you have to undertake on your own..

VSL stands for Volume of Sacred Law but I have been corrected on it...



Glen Cook said:


> We are in accord as to what one brings with him. Not all GLs require one to choose a VSL.



I stand corrected.


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## TheThumbPuppy (Jul 10, 2020)

Elexir said:


> Do you or do you not believe in a supreme being?



I think it may help the OP to research the definition of "supreme being".

In my limited understanding, "supreme" could be intended as "above everything else", or "encompassing, including everything else"; "being" could be intended as an anthropomorphic god (being = someone), or anything that exists (being = existing).

That could span a large number of interpretations of the "supreme being", from more conventional ones, like for instance God as depicted in the Sistine Chapel, to lesser known ones, like for instance in some forms of Panentheism (Bruno, Krause, etc).


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## Glen Cook (Jul 10, 2020)

TheThumbPuppy said:


> I think it may help the OP to research the definition of "supreme being".
> 
> In my limited understanding, "supreme" could be intended as "above everything else", or "encompassing, including everything else"; "being" could be intended as an anthropomorphic god (being = someone), or anything that exists (being = existing).
> 
> That could span a large number of interpretations of the "supreme being", from more conventional ones, like for instance God as depicted in the Sistine Chapel, to lesser known ones, like for instance in some forms of Panentheism (Bruno, Krause, etc).


Without disagreeing, I would note that some GLs are monothestic.


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## TheThumbPuppy (Jul 10, 2020)

Glen Cook said:


> I would note that some GLs are monothestic



Do you mean the Grand Lodge of Sweden, for instance? Of course my experience is quite limited. Could you spend a few more words on this subject and perhaps give a few more examples please?


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## Glen Cook (Jul 10, 2020)

TheThumbPuppy said:


> Do you mean the Grand Lodge of Sweden, for instance? Of course my experience is quite limited. Could you spend a few more words on this subject and perhaps give a few more examples please?


I was referring to US GLs, but yes, that would be an example. 
There are various belief requirements, even political requirements, imposed by various GLs:
Texas requires on it's petition for the degrees a belief in the US Constitution, the immortality of the soul,  and the divine  authenticity of the volume of sacred law. http://grandlodgeoftexas.org/assets/uploads/2015/10/26.pdf

Kentucky forbids  those who believe in the overthrow of the government.http://www.mastermason.com/mckee/newpetition.pdf


Mississippi ask 3 questions 

1. Do you believe in God
2. Do you believe in the resurrection of the body? 
3. Do you believe in the immortality of the soul.

Massachusetts: Sec. 102. This Grand Lodge recognizes the following Landmarks:
a. Monotheism, the sole dogma of Freemasonry;

Florida asks on its petition “Do you believe in the existence of one ever-living and true God?”  See https://grandlodgefl.com/docs/GLF_Forms/GL 601 Petition for the Degrees.pdf

PHA WA: 
Title 113, Section 113.01
"Every Candidate applying for the degrees in Masonry must have the senses of a man; especially those of hearing, seeing, and feeling; be a believer in God and a future existence..."
....
Section 113.04
"A candidate who is unable or unwilling to express a belief in the existence of God and a resurrection to a future life lacks the essential qualification for the degrees to Masonry..."

Oklahoma requires a belief in the one true and  living God , prohibits support the overthrow of the government and requires that one support the Constitution and agree to defend it.  http://www.gloklahoma.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/petition2011.pdf

Florida asks if you believe in the one ever living and true God. It also prohibits a belief in the overthrow of the government.  http://grandlodgefl.com/docs/GLF_Forms/GL 601 Petition for the Degrees.pdf

Ohio asks if you believe in the “existence and perfection of God”. http://www.glohio.com/grand-lodge-forms?download=110:form-21-petition-for-degrees


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## Derek Barclay (Jul 10, 2020)

Glen Cook said:


> Do you believe in a Supreme Being?  Yes or No.
> 
> I truly hope that a pleasant chat at the bar is not equal to what Masons do.  That is often one part of our relationship with our “brethren,” but surely not the sum of it.



As far as I can tell, no. But belief is different than knowledge, to a degree, and beliefs are not something we can consciously choose, I believe.



Elexir said:


> You will have to decide that prior to joining.
> The question is honestly straight forward: Do you or do you not belive in a supreme being?
> If you belive you are free to join but if you dont then you cant join.
> 
> The work in freemasonry isnt to establish wheter or not there is a supreme being or what your belives are. Thats a journey you have to undertake on your own..



I believe that I may come to understand more fully what some mean when they say such words and then maybe I could honestly answer yes. But as of now the answer is still no. I dont believe anything about life straightforward. Everything seems to be quite a mystery.


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## Glen Cook (Jul 10, 2020)

Derek Barclay said:


> As far as I can tell, no. But belief is different than knowledge, to a degree, and beliefs are not something we can consciously choose, I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that I may come to understand more fully what some mean when they say such words and then maybe I could honestly answer yes. But as of now the answer is still no. I dont believe anything about life straightforward. Everything seems to be quite a mystery.


It appears you are in Texas.  These are the questions you must answer.  Only you know how you can answer them.  

https://grandlodgeoftexas.org/assets/uploads/2015/10/26.pdf


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## TheThumbPuppy (Jul 10, 2020)

Glen Cook said:


> I was referring to US GLs, but yes, that would be an example.
> There are various belief requirements, even political requirements, imposed by various GLs:
> Texas requires on it's petition for the degrees a belief in the US Constitution, the immortality of the soul,  and the divine  authenticity of the volume of sacred law. http://grandlodgeoftexas.org/assets/uploads/2015/10/26.pdf
> 
> ...



Thank you, Glen. This is a far more complex landscape than I previously thought.

I kind of heard of a few things before (probably on this forum), like believing in the "immortality of the soul". But other things came as a surprise, for example "Oklahoma [...] requires that one support the Constitution and agree to defend it", or "Do you believe in the resurrection of the body?"

My Lodge is under the supervision of the Grand Lodge of Scotland and it is my (limited) understanding that we do not have any of these requirements. If memory serves me correctly, I was only asked something on the line of "Do you believe in a Supreme Being?" and nothing at all about the Constitution (the more I think of that, the more I think it's a nice touch though).

Thank you again for taking the time to explain this to me.


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## jermy Bell (Jul 10, 2020)

Ok, now this just sounds like that you are in some sort of turmoil with your own existence. So, with that being said, freemasonry isn't for you at the moment, and there is nothing that freemasonry can offer you. Come back again when you are ready to be shown the true Beauty of freemasonry. And what it maybe can offer you.

        Sorry about being so straight forward.....


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## Derek Barclay (Jul 10, 2020)

jermy Bell said:


> Ok, now this just sounds like that you are in some sort of turmoil with your own existence. So, with that being said, freemasonry isn't for you at the moment, and there is nothing that freemasonry can offer you. Come back again when you are ready to be shown the true Beauty of freemasonry. And what it maybe can offer you.
> 
> Sorry about being so straight forward.....



I agree.

Why do you feel it's necessary to apologize?

I don't have much control over how I think. But I do have some control over my actions.
And I think that is what matters.
Not how you think, but how you act.
The good act goes against the easy thought.
And meaning comes from an infinite number of places; but good meaning, to us, comes from love.

 I read the application for lodges in Texas, and I don't feel it's necessary for me to seek initiation. But I do appreciate yall and your responses. Truly.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 9, 2020)

Best of luck in life to you.


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