# PHA to ancient Free & Accepted Mason



## Timothy Riser (Apr 9, 2016)

How do I go from a PHA TO AF&AM ?


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## MRichard (Apr 9, 2016)

First you need to find a lodge that you want to join. You will probably need to demit later and it might depend on whether that state recognizes your PHA grand lodge as to whether you have to go through degrees again.


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## Brother JC (Apr 10, 2016)

What state are you in? Contact a "state" lodge and begin communication. You may be able to demit and apply, a fairly simple transition.


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## dfreybur (Apr 10, 2016)

If you mean to a jurisdiction with Prince Hall in their name, the only regular one that uses AF&AM in in Liberia.  You start by writing to get a visa and the immigration papers.  All other Prince Hall AF&AM jurisdictions are clandestine so you don't.  http://www.conferenceofgrandmasterspha.org/gjlinks.asp http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/bogusgrandlodges.php

If you mean the other branch of our family, what I'll call George Washington affiliated for lack of a formal designation, you start visiting.  You ask for the version of the affiliation form used across jurisdictions.  You would need to be in the majority of states that have PHA recognition.  Your PHA lodge may require to demit to the next lodge though most of our jurisdictions don't object to keeping your prior membership in parallel.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Apr 10, 2016)

Speaking on AF&AM AND F&AM. I work with a GL mason (Meaning not PHA) as me and him started talking, he said what are y'all PH masons ? I said we are F&AM. He said okay. As the conversation went to masons helping masons, he said "I don't know about AF&AM". I said,  well the ones that aren't clandestine will help you just the same. He then stated "well I was taught AF&AM might help but a F&AM will help for sure". 

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## Dontrell Stroman (Apr 10, 2016)

Question : If two masons are talking, say one PH and the other GL but their GL does not recognize each other, and one says "On the ******" should you be able to trust that brother with your secrets even though his GL considers your GL clandestine ? Because technically his ob. Does no extend to you because you are considered clandestine to him. What are your thoughts ?

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## MRichard (Apr 10, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Speaking on AF&AM AND F&AM. I work with a GL mason (Meaning not PHA) as me and him started talking, he said what are y'all PH masons ? I said we are F&AM. He said okay. As the conversation went to masons helping masons, he said "I don't know about AF&AM". I said,  well the ones that aren't clandestine will help you just the same. He then stated "well I was taught AF&AM might help but a F&AM will help for sure".
> 
> Sent from my 831C using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



That makes absolutely no sense.


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## acjohnson53 (Apr 11, 2016)

I'm pretty sure they will except you with open arms...But I ask why would you so that???/G\


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## Bloke (Apr 11, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Question : If two masons are talking, say one PH and the other GL but their GL does not recognize each other, and one says "On the ******" should you be able to trust that brother with your secrets even though his GL considers your GL clandestine ? Because technically his ob. Does no extend to you because you are considered clandestine to him. What are your thoughts ?
> 
> Sent from my 831C using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



I was taught to be cautious... and told to be prudent and of sound judgment...  it would all come down to those things...


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## Derinique Kendrick (Apr 11, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Question : If two masons are talking, say one PH and the other GL but their GL does not recognize each other, and one says "On the ******" should you be able to trust that brother with your secrets even though his GL considers your GL clandestine ? Because technically his ob. Does no extend to you because you are considered clandestine to him. What are your thoughts ?
> 
> Sent from my 831C using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Nope. If it is against the ob to communicate masonically with a clandestine mason, then I will not do so. Period.


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## Ripcord22A (Apr 11, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Question : If two masons are talking, say one PH and the other GL but their GL does not recognize each other, and one says "On the ******" should you be able to trust that brother with your secrets even though his GL considers your GL clandestine ? Because technically his ob. Does no extend to you because you are considered clandestine to him. What are your thoughts ?
> 
> Sent from my 831C using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


To me this has nothing to do with the OB.  As it is not Masonic intercourse.  Some one saying on the square to me that is not during open lodge would make me laugh.  If you are speaking with someone and they/you are comfortable sharing something then obviously your relationship extends beyond masonry.  There are alot of brothers that I wouldnt share my personal stuff with and alot of my friends that could never be masons that id share my life with!

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## Derinique Kendrick (Apr 11, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> To me this has nothing to do with the OB.  As it is not Masonic intercourse.  Some one saying on the square to me that is not during open lodge would make me laugh.  If you are speaking with someone and they/you are comfortable sharing something then obviously your relationship extends beyond masonry.  There are alot of brothers that I wouldnt share my personal stuff with and alot of my friends that could never be masons that id share my life with!
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


I can agree. Life secrets, sure! Anything masonic, nope!


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## Dontrell Stroman (Apr 11, 2016)

MRichard said:


> That makes absolutely no sense.


Yes I know. That's why I asked the question in an earlier post about the difference in the two. This brother is not as educated on freemasonry as others, so I won't hold it against him.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Apr 11, 2016)

acjohnson53 said:


> I'm pretty sure they will except you with open arms...But I ask why would you so that???/G\


Why would I what ?


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## Derinique Kendrick (Apr 11, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Why would I what ?


I believe that he was referencing the original poster's desire to switch from PHA to AF&AM


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## dfreybur (Apr 11, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> but their GL does not recognize each other



Masonic secrets?  If there is no recognition then don't do anything that you would do to get past a tiler.

Personal secrets?  The way the obligations in my mother jurisdiction are worded it needs to be a recognized jurisdiction.  Some wording suggests regular rather than recognized.

Mostly if I'm going to discuss personal secrets I'm going to judge individually not matter the obligation.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Apr 11, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Masonic secrets?  If there is no recognition then don't do anything that you would do to get past a tiler.
> 
> Personal secrets?  The way the obligations in my mother jurisdiction are worded it needs to be a recognized jurisdiction.  Some wording suggests regular rather than recognized.
> 
> Mostly if I'm going to discuss personal secrets I'm going to judge individually not matter the obligation.


I know better when it comes to masonic secrets. I'm speaking in terms of personal. Because he is a mason you would think he could be trusted with anything.


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## Derinique Kendrick (Apr 13, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I know better when it comes to masonic secrets. I'm speaking in terms of personal. Because he is a mason you would think he could be trusted with anything.


I think that  would come down to the individual brothers discretion. Personally, if I'm going to be trusting a man with my personal secrets, it's definitely going to be because I respect his as a man, Masonry would have nothing to do with it for me.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Apr 13, 2016)

Derinique Kendrick said:


> I think that  would come down to the individual brothers discretion. Personally, if I'm going to be trusting a man with my personal secrets, it's definitely going to be because I respect his as a man, Masonry would have nothing to do with it for me.


Right, but you would think you could trust a man more because he is a mason.


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## Derinique Kendrick (Apr 13, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Right, but you would think you could trust a man more because he is a mason.


I get what you're saying, but unfortunately, that's not always the case. You could do that, but if it were entrusted to the wrong mason it would be just like telling a non mason who is  known for spilling the beans. But I get your point.


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## hanzosbm (Apr 14, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Right, but you would think you could trust a man more because he is a mason.


I look at it this way:

If he's a good man, he'll keep my secrets whether he's a Mason or not. 
If he's not a good man and would be willing to spill my secrets, than he is probably also willing to break his obligation, so either way my secrets aren't safe with him.

Sadly, I don't think him being a Mason really matters.


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## Derinique Kendrick (Apr 14, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> I look at it this way:
> 
> If he's a good man, he'll keep my secrets whether he's a Mason or not.
> If he's not a good man and would be willing to spill my secrets, than he is probably also willing to break his obligation, so either way my secrets aren't safe with him.
> ...


Bingo! I couldn't agree more!


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## Dontrell Stroman (Apr 14, 2016)

Derinique Kendrick said:


> Bingo! I couldn't agree more!


I see it that way to a point. This is where I think freemasonry has changed. Because of what we both went through..... I should trust that whatever I tell a worthy mason will remain between  us. That's where I believe some where along the lines in society (freemasonry) something happened.


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## hanzosbm (Apr 14, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I see it that way to a point. This is where I think freemasonry has changed. Because of what we both went through..... I should trust that whatever I tell a worthy mason will remain between  us. That's where I believe some where along the lines in society (freemasonry) something happened.


Well, I think you're doubly right.
First, I think that you CAN trust that whatever you tell a WORTY Mason will remain between you. Worthy is the key word here, which brings me to the second agreement. I think we have allowed the unworthy into our Lodges, in great number in fact. Of course whether this is something new or it's always been that way, we'll never know.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Apr 15, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> Well, I think you're doubly right.
> First, I think that you CAN trust that whatever you tell a WORTY Mason will remain between you. Worthy is the key word here, which brings me to the second agreement. I think we have allowed the unworthy into our Lodges, in great number in fact. Of course whether this is something new or it's always been that way, we'll never know.


Agreed. If you look throughout historical wars, ( Revolutionary war, Civil War, etc) you will find that most Masonic leaders, general's/commanders surrounded themselves amongst other fellow masons. I believe the reason for this was due to the bond that these men shared.


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## dfreybur (Apr 15, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I see it that way to a point. This is where I think freemasonry has changed. Because of what we both went through..... I should trust that whatever I tell a worthy mason will remain between  us. That's where I believe some where along the lines in society (freemasonry) something happened.



If I have a confidence that needs to be shared I work to judge the worthiness of the person I need to tell that confidence.  The common bond of having been through our degrees speeds up my judgment process but does not determine my judgment process.  I hope that it does not short circuit my judgment process.

Trust swims in the gray zone between my judgment being justified and my hope that it will be justified.  How soon is too soon, how much trust is too much trust.


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## Timothy Riser (Apr 24, 2016)

acjohnson53 said:


> I'm pretty sure they will except you with open arms...But I ask why would you so that???/G\


I asked about becoming a mason and I was approached by a friend and brother about becoming a mason here on Osan air base in the Republic of Korea. I did not know there was a difference between them. i researche their lodge after being initiated as an entered apprentice and to answer the above statement of "all PHA are clandestine" is false. I have met many AF&AM Mason's who have become F&AM PHA, in my eyes a MASTER MASON is a MASTER MASON regardless of if he is AF&AM or F&AM .

My grandfather, godfather and several uncles are Mason, since most are deceased I had no one to ask on becoming one. The reason for wanting to change from F&AM to AF&AM is to join a lodge that my ancestors were apart of. I just want to restart a family tradition that died out with my generation within my family.

I respect my fellow brothers within this lodge and they have guided me through my journey with respect and patience.


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## Ripcord22A (Apr 24, 2016)

We wernt saying all PHA is clandestine we were saying that There is only one PHA AF&AM lodge that is recognised.  I believe its Libera.  All others are clandestine.  AF&AM vs F&AM is immaterial outside of PHA.  State GLs use BOTH and a couple others as well.
If you are currently a member of a PHA jurisdiction and want to switch to a mainstream jurisdiction you first have to make sure that the state you are moving to recognizes your PHA jurisdiction.  Then go to some meetings, then petition for affiliation and then once accepted demit from your PHA jurisdiction as they probably dont allow dual membership.

If the state you move to doesnt recognise your PHA jurisdiction you will probably have to go through the whole process all over again...petition, initiation ect ect

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