# Albert Pike



## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 7, 2016)

I've often wonder why so many freemasons praise Albert Pike. I understand he is responsible for a lot of the education on the Scottish Rite, but how could a man who writes a book Morals and Dogma and I quote from his book " I took my obligations from white men, not from negroes. When I have to accept negroes as brothers or leave masonry, I shall leave it" be praised as a righteous man. I also wonder if that's why there is so much confusion within our craft. Are freemasons today still only  taking their obligation to a certain race. I took my obligation to all worthy master mason. If Freemasonry teaches that all masons meet on the "Level" then why would a man that makes a statement off the Level be glorified.


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## NY.Light.II (Jan 7, 2016)

A few things. Pike, from my understanding, is not dogma. That is to say, he didn't speak or write with a special authority for the whole of masonry (if I recall correctly, there is a form of disclaimer at the beginning of M&D, where it essentially says  the same thing). He was a Mason and a philosopher, whom many find to be helpful and instructive. Additionally, when discussing past figures, to what standards are you holding their actions? Contemporary for them or for us? To put it another way, a person can admire a figure in part or in whole.  I am unfamiliar with the specific quote, so others more knowledgable on the subject than I may address it, but be wary of casting absolute value judgements on those in the past. To my limited and uninitiated knowledge, there is no racial aspect to a regular Mason's oath.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 7, 2016)

NY.Light.II said:


> A few things. Pike, from my understanding, is not dogma. That is to say, he didn't speak or write with a special authority for the whole of masonry (if I recall correctly, there is a form of disclaimer at the beginning of M&D, where it essentially says  the same thing). He was a Mason and a philosopher, whom many find to be helpful and instructive. Additionally, when discussing past figures, to what standards are you holding their actions? Contemporary for them or for us? To put it another way, a person can admire a figure in part or in whole.  I am unfamiliar with the specific quote, so others more knowledgable on the subject than I may address it, but be wary of casting absolute value judgements on those in the past. To my limited and uninitiated knowledge, there is no racial aspect to a regular Mason's oath.


 Thank you for your comment as I like to see different point of views. First let me start by saying, I never stated that Pike was Dogma, but for him to only be just a just a "Mason and philosopher" As you quoted, many masons that I have encountered have held him to high reguard.  I will say, I am very weary of casting judgment especially on brothers that can no longer defend themselves, but I was always taught (if it walks like a duck and quack like a duck then...... It's not a goose lol) Pike made that statement very clear  in his book so I'm only going off of what he has said. So I will raise the question; if a Black Pince Hall Affiliated mason wrote a book and stated "I only took my obligation to Black Prince Hall Affiliated masons, and the day I have to accept white brethren I will leave masonry. How would you feel/view it ? I don't see how one could try and defend something that was said so clear and direct. Also there is so much speculation that Pike was also a member of the KKK (Ku Klux Klan) which that is only speculation, I don't know. And yes it is okay to admire someone, but let's say a person states "I admire Hitler" yes it is okay to say that because that is your right, (with all that Hitler had done) what does that say about a man's character. Even if he didn't agree with Hitler, just admired him; it would make a man wonder.


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## NY.Light.II (Jan 7, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Thank you for your comment as I like to see different point of views. First let me start by saying, I never stated that Pike was Dogma, but for him to only be just a just a "Mason and philosopher" As you quoted, many masons that I have encountered have held him to high reguard.  I will say, I am very weary of casting judgment especially on brothers that can no longer defend themselves, but I was always taught (if it walks like a duck and quack like a duck then...... It's not a goose lol) Pike made that statement very clear  in his book so I'm only going off of what he has said. So I will raise the question; if a Black Pince Hall Affiliated mason wrote a book and stated "I only took my obligation to Black Prince Hall Affiliated masons, and the day I have to accept white brethren I will leave masonry. How would you feel/view it ? I don't see how one could try and defend something that was said so clear and direct. Also there is so much speculation that Pike was also a member of the KKK (Ku Klux Klan) which that is only speculation, I don't know. And yes it is okay to admire someone, but let's say a person states "I admire Hitler" yes it is okay to say that because that is your right, (with all that Hitler had done) what does that say about a man's character. Even if he didn't agree with Hitler, just admired him; it would make a man wonder.



And George Washington owned slaves. I can play the game of pick out bad traits from past figures too. As I said early, making absolute value judgements is difficult, even if one accepts a person can do that (and that's a big if). I'm content to take the good of these men, and leave the bad.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 7, 2016)

Yes I gave an example, and I could go on as well there are many, which is why I chose one (Hitler) Is a man not judged by the fruit he bears? Yes Pike may have done some good and wrote some inspirational writings, but I'm speaking on a particular quote he wrote; Not taking his obligation to "Negros". No matter how you try and rationalize it, the man said it and meant it.


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## NY.Light.II (Jan 7, 2016)

I'm not rationalizing it. I'm saying that because a white man in the mid-19th century made a racist remark (and probably many more) does not mean that whatever remains of his legacy, philosophically or otherwise, should be immediately deemed unworthy of study or reflection. Yes you choose Hitler as an extreme, illustrative example of bad. I agree, but can also supply a list of "good" people who did terrible things. MLK was a womanizer. Mother Teresa took money from dictators. The list goes on. Individuals are, to varying degrees, composites of both good and bad, rational and irrational. Learn the good from them. Don't forget the bad, but don't let it blind your image of a person.


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## Companion Joe (Jan 8, 2016)

I will also agree that you can't judge historical figures withe modern eyes. You have to judge them in the context of the time in which they lived.
The Hitler argument works here. If someone said today that they admire Hitler, we would know that person has issues. When Time Magazine named Hitler its Man of the Year in 1938, that would have been a reasonable statement. Josef Stalin was named Man of the Year twice (39 and 42). Both were later discovered to be responsible for the deaths of millions of people.

The narrative isn't always as clearly divided as one wants.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 8, 2016)

NY.Light.II said:


> I'm not rationalizing it. I'm saying that because a white man in the mid-19th century made a racist remark (and probably many more) does not mean that whatever remains of his legacy, philosophically or otherwise, should be immediately deemed unworthy of study or reflection. Yes you choose Hitler as an extreme, illustrative example of bad. I agree, but can also supply a list of "good" people who did terrible things. MLK was a womanizer. Mother Teresa took money from dictators. The list goes on. Individuals are, to varying degrees, composites of both good and bad, rational and irrational. Learn the good from them. Don't forget the bad, but don't let it blind your image of a person.


That is where we will have to agree to disagree. I do believe you could compare, right has always been right and wrong has always been wrong. So what do you say about a white an that wasn't racist in that time that stood against such culture ?


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## chrmc (Jan 8, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I've often wonder why so many freemasons praise Albert Pike. I understand he is responsible for a lot of the education on the Scottish Rite, but how could a man who writes a book Morals and Dogma and I quote from his book " I took my obligations from white men, not from negroes. When I have to accept negroes as brothers or leave masonry, I shall leave it" be praised as a righteous man. I also wonder if that's why there is so much confusion within our craft. Are freemasons today still only  taking their obligation to a certain race. I took my obligation to all worthy master mason. If Freemasonry teaches that all masons meet on the "Level" then why would a man that makes a statement off the Level be glorified.



From your other comments, I don't actually think you're looking for an answer to your question, but instead for some agreement that Pike was a bad man. But I'll answer you instead. 

The reason why Pike is praised because he is one of the people who did an incredible job for Masonry. He more or less created the Scottish Rite as we know now, and he wrote many wonderful books that teach us more about masonry, how to work with the Craft what it means and where it comes from. You can find few masons throughout history who has added as much to it's body of knowledge as he has. 

Did he have bad traits and wrote things we find unreasonable today? Sure he did - as may happen to many of us in 100 years. And we should distance ourselves from those parts of his writings. But that doesn't mean you can discredit everything he did. Especially not when viewing him in the historical context of this time.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 8, 2016)

chrmc said:


> From your other comments, I don't actually think you're looking for an answer to your question, but instead for some agreement that Pike was a bad man. I'm not looking for agreement, nor approval. I simply asked a question as to why a man that wrote such a disturbing comment  would be praised. I never said that he was a bad man or that he didn't do any good, but what I am saying is that masonry teaches against certain attributes so why should a man that makes such statements be held to high reguard ?


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## hanzosbm (Jan 8, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> ...right has always been right and wrong has always been wrong...



BS.  Plain and simple.  Thoughts and values change.  Read just about any holy book, at least from the Abrahamic traditions that I'm familiar with, and you'll see judgments and instructions for punishments for things that we see today as being absurd.  Right and wrong do change.

That being said, I'm not a fan of Pike's opinions on race.  Then again, I don't read his writings to get insights on race relations, just as I wouldn't read a Stephen Hawking book for recipe ideas.  Was Pike a racist?  Probably.  If you want to spend your time being angry at a dead man, have at it.  I'd rather make lemonade from the lemons by picking out the good things.  Pike had some great insight into Masonic subjects.  I don't agree with all of them and in fact I've yet to find a Masonic author that I agree with 100%, but I find that there is wisdom in most texts.  I, for one, refuse to throw the baby out with the bath water and I'll continue to read his books for the positive aspects while ignoring the negative.  Going back to the example given earlier for Hitler, he was a designer (I hesitate to say architect since his plans were full of structural problems) who came up with some brilliant plans.  His social services have been the blueprint for many used across the developed world to this day, and he brought Germany from starvation and the brink of collapse to one of the most prosperous in the world in the matter of a few years.  But good attributes do not make him a good man.  He was sick and evil, no question, but purposely forgetting the insight he brought forward, just as with Albert Pike, would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. 

I will agree that many Masons look up to Pike as some sort of Masonic fatherly figure, and in my opinion, that is a mistake.  He was a writer with some great insights, he ought to be celebrated for that.  He was also (at least in our eyes of today) a racist, and he ought to be denounced for that.  But no one is saying that you can't do both.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 8, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> BS.  Plain and simple.  Thoughts and values change.  Read just about any holy book, at least from the Abrahamic traditions that I'm familiar with, and you'll see judgments and instructions for punishments for things that we see today as being absurd.  Right and wrong do change.
> 
> That being said, I'm not a fan of Pike's opinions on race.  Then again, I don't read his writings to get insights on race relations, just as I wouldn't read a Stephen Hawking book for recipe ideas.  Was Pike a racist?  Probably.  If you want to spend your time being angry at a dead man, have at it.  I'd rather make lemonade from the lemons by picking out the good things.  Pike had some great insight into Masonic subjects.  I don't agree with all of them and in fact I've yet to find a Masonic author that I agree with 100%, but I find that there is wisdom in most texts.  I, for one, refuse to throw the baby out with the bath water and I'll continue to read his books for the positive aspects while ignoring the negative.  Going back to the example given earlier for Hitler, he was a designer (I hesitate to say architect since his plans were full of structural problems) who came up with some brilliant plans.  His social services have been the blueprint for many used across the developed world to this day, and he brought Germany from starvation and the brink of collapse to one of the most prosperous in the world in the matter of a few years.  But good attributes do not make him a good man.  He was sick and evil, no question, but purposely forgetting the insight he brought forward, just as with Albert Pike, would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.
> 
> I will agree that many Masons look up to Pike as some sort of Masonic fatherly figure, and in my opinion, that is a mistake.  He was a writer with some great insights, he ought to be celebrated for that.  He was also (at least in our eyes of today) a racist, and he ought to be denounced for that.  But no one is saying that you can't do both.


Thank you for your insight. Let me start off by saying calling what I wrote BS was inappropriate and uncalled for. First, I will not get into a religious debate over the subject, but I will state my belief/opinion. I believe hatred has always been wrong no matter the time period. If you look through history, there has always been people/persons that did agree with nor go along with social norm, any were killed for trying to change the system, so with that being said I think it's safe to safe that people did know right from wrong. Example : During slavery to might that have been normal, but what do you call white abolitionists did not agree with slavery. Again, there have always been people that knew what was going on was wrong in that time. Secondly, I am not angry with a dead man. I can give credit where credit is due, I simply made a statement about how one could hold a man to such high reguard and write such a thing. You even admitted that Pike was most likely a racist, so again I ask why would a "racist" in your own terms, be looked upon as fatherly to freemasonry. Lastly, I think Pike was a smart man, but do I believe that quotes such as he made in his book are the reasons why Freemasonry is so divided, of course I do.

I can disagree without being rude. That's one reason I love being a freemason. Embracing others ideas with out being shunned and outcasted.


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## MRichard (Jan 8, 2016)

Pike also probably shared his rituals with some of his PHA counterparts and was friends with some of them especially late in his career.  http://srjarchives.tripod.com/1998-10/DEHOYOS.HTM


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 8, 2016)

I read that but did not know if there was any truth to it.


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## chrmc (Jan 8, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> You even admitted that Pike was most likely a racist, so again I ask why would a "racist" in your own terms, be looked upon as fatherly to freemasonry.



I just don't think any of us can give you an answer you are happy with. You've asked why Pike is so revered and several of us have tried to give you a reason. However these reasons doesn't seem to be acceptable or good enough to you. And that's ok to. No one has asked you to like him or his writing. 

But don't keep dismissing the answers people are giving you to your original question.


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## MRichard (Jan 8, 2016)

http://www.myfreemasonry.com/threads/cowans-eavesdroppers.26264/page-2#post-153570

Now you didn't want that to turn into something racial but yet here we are again.


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## MRichard (Jan 8, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I read that but did not know if there was any truth to it.



From what I understand Art deHoyos is considered to be reputable especially on the Scottish Rite.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 8, 2016)

MRichard said:


> http://www.myfreemasonry.com/threads/cowans-eavesdroppers.26264/page-2#post-153570
> 
> Now you didn't want that to turn into something racial but yet here we are again.


Yes I did. I clearly state "This thread". If your trying to catch me in some type of contradiction I'm sorry sir, but you cannot.


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## MRichard (Jan 8, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Yes I did. I clearly state "This thread". If your trying to catch me in some type of contradiction I'm sorry sir, but you cannot.



Really. Basically you want to bring up race when it is convenient for you. This is not the first thread along these lines.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 8, 2016)

First off, I do not believe in division so anything that I feel to be continuing to keeping our order divided I will speak against.


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## MRichard (Jan 8, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> First off, I do not believe in division so anything that I feel to be continuing to keeping our order divided I will speak against.



How is Pike keeping our order divided? It seems possible that he even changed his stance on certain issues especially Prince Hall matters if what deHoyos wrote is true. Exactly what do you hope to accomplish by bringing this up?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 8, 2016)

I didn't know a person had to accomplish something just for writing a thread. I simply quoted what the man said and asked a question and made a statement.


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## MRichard (Jan 8, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I didn't know a person had to accomplish something just for writing a thread. I simply quoted what the man said and asked a question and made a statement.



You were trying to make a point. So what if what deHoyos wrote is true?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 8, 2016)

If that is true then I would have to reevaluate my thoughts and statement. That would be the logical thing to do I believe.


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## dfreybur (Jan 8, 2016)

I am able to have generosity towards Pike by teasing out the parts of his work that still apply from the parts that would now be cursed.  Pick a character of history and you'll be able to do this, without exception.  That includes the greatest prophets humanity has ever produced.  Pike was no prophet so he was more flawed, but when seen in his total contribution he wasn't a devil either.  Treat historical characters like threshing grain - Blow away the chaff and keep the seed.

Had I been born to his era I would not have been able to notice his racism yet it stands out starkly to me in this era.  This makes me aware that a century or two from now people will look back to this era and see the same sort of social injustices.  I pray they have generosity and they blow away my chaff.  Chaff that I live daily but am not even aware of.

If you insist on judging him by this era, remember the lesson about judgment - You have volunteered to be judged by an era a century and a half out.  I have read enough history that I pray to only be judged by the criteria of my own era.


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## hanzosbm (Jan 8, 2016)

Okay, let's try this a different way.  While I don't like doing this (because I don't like it when it's done to me), I'm going to paraphrase your original post to get at the heart of the matter.



Travelling Man91 said:


> I've often wonder why so many freemasons praise Albert Pike...how could a man who writes (terrible things) be praised as a righteous man


He isn't.  He is praised as a well informed man on the topics of symbolism within Freemasonry.



Travelling Man91 said:


> ...why would a man that makes a statement off the Level be glorified.


If he's being glorified (and I think that's an awfully generous term) it is because of his insight on the symbolism of Masonry, not on his character.  You can't lump the two together.

Nobody is perfect, we all have flaws.  Refusing to take advantage of the positives because of unrelated negatives would be doing a disservice to ourselves.


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## Ressam (Jan 8, 2016)

Gentlemen,
in Washington D.C., there is a statue of Albert Pike, located.
Who knows -- who ordered to make it(Governor, President, etc.)?
Just interesting.


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## NY.Light.II (Jan 8, 2016)

Ressam said:


> Gentlemen,
> in Washington D.C., there is a statue of Albert Pike, located.
> Who knows -- who ordered to make it(Governor, President, etc.)?
> Just interesting.



http://www.masonicinfo.com/pikestatue.htm


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 8, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> If you insist on judging him by this era, remember the lesson about judgment - You have volunteered to be judged by an era a century and a half out. I have read enough history that I pray to only be judged by the criteria of my own era.


My feeling is the same....It's not fair to judge someone in the past by the morals of today.


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## Ressam (Jan 8, 2016)

NY.Light.II said:


> http://www.masonicinfo.com/pikestatue.htm


Thanks!


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## Bloke (Jan 8, 2016)

Putting aside the above and looking at the OP, few here in Australia would have read Pike. I read the chapters on the degrees I've done and was not that impressed. The standard response by many is I don't understand it, with an English Major and a reasonable level of formal and informal education, I would say I have some comprehension of it. For me, Masonic ritual (and writings) are something to be reflected on and considered as an individual, sometimes using any prism and multiple approaches you have to look through and examine the ideas and words . Time and place aside, the ritual can stand in its own right.... what some guy in the 1800s has to say about it in an American Context (and I am thinking socially, but more particularly about Preston/Webb ritual as opposed to what were use here which is a derivative of the Emulation) was not that relevant to me. I'm not that enamored with Pike and groan when anti-masons quote him as some sort of universal and revered font of knowledge. I've never and would not recommend him to newer Freemasons to study, the only reason I read him was because others talk about him and to understand why he is quoted...

(I must also acknowledge I am not a member of Scottish Rite, but if his comments on the Craft is an indication, he would only be read by my as a historic curio )


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 8, 2016)

Very said said brother. I agree with you


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## MarkR (Jan 9, 2016)

There is more to Pike than Morals and Dogma.  While his writing style is still Victorian, I think you'd get a lot more out of Esoterika.

http://www.amazon.com/Albert-Pikes-Esoterika-Symbolism-Freemasonry/dp/0970874944

Disregard the ridiculous prices for the book on Amazon.  You can buy it directly from the Supreme Council, either alone or as part of the Master Craftsman program.


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## Bloke (Jan 9, 2016)

Morals and Dogma is on Guttenberg. Always worth looking for old books there. Also found pdf versions of Esoterika via google....


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## Radical540 (Jan 16, 2016)

Pike did many good things for the Native American people; so how is he a racist?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 16, 2016)

Radical540 said:


> Pike did many good things for the Native American people; so how is he a racist?


Did you really just ask that ? A person can love certain races and hate others. The ones that they hate would make them a racist towards that race.


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## Zaden (Jan 19, 2016)

It is also worth noting in this context, as is pointed out in the Annotated Edition of Morals and Dogma and was admitted by Pike himself, that your could argue that the vast majority of it is just him quoting other sources of wisdom (huge chunks of the first few degree lectures, for example, are quotes from Les Mis, later, huge chunks are quotes from Eliphas Levi). So, the validity or lack thereof, when it comes to philosophy in Morals and Dogma is unaffected by Pike's racism (even if the quote is legitimate: http://masonicinfo.com/pikesracism.htm). The human race has an unfortunately long history of "wisdom" coming from those who held opinions of other races/cultures that would later become offensive, simply due to the way our species divided itself into "us vs. them" throughout history. 
In the end, everything in M&D is left for the reader to ponder and accept or reject on its own, not based on whether the "compiler" of the text was a good man in every way or not.


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## Joseph Thornton (Jan 21, 2016)

NY.Light.II said:


> A few things. Pike, from my understanding, is not dogma. That is to say, he didn't speak or write with a special authority for the whole of masonry (if I recall correctly, there is a form of disclaimer at the beginning of M&D, where it essentially says  the same thing). He was a Mason and a philosopher, whom many find to be helpful and instructive. Additionally, when discussing past figures, to what standards are you holding their actions? Contemporary for them or for us? To put it another way, a person can admire a figure in part or in whole.  I am unfamiliar with the specific quote, so others more knowledgable on the subject than I may address it, but be wary of casting absolute value judgements on those in the past. To my limited and uninitiated knowledge, there is no racial aspect to a regular Mason's oath.



This is an excellent point for modern American society. If you claim you like a certain writer, actor, musician; it becomes generally accepted that you have to agree with everything that person says and does as a whole to be a part of yourself and your own views. If this has to be true, then I don't like anyone. Ever. Because everyone has something they've said or done that I don't agree with as part of myself.

Personally I am a little puzzled about this quote on Pike. Given the time he was alive, Confederate, Union or anywhere around the world, I don't think it would have been common for anyone to swear an oath of any kind to "negroes". For that reason the whole quote seems a little puzzling to me. 1) Why would anyone think Pike swore his oath to blacks? Or that anyone was swearing to blacks? And 2) how would his NOT having sworn to blacks make him different form someone that did?

(Disclaimer: don't read anything racist in what I said. I love all people)


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 21, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> This is an excellent point for modern American society. If you claim you like a certain writer, actor, musician; it becomes generally accepted that you have to agree with everything that person says and does as a whole to be a part of yourself and your own views. If this has to be true, then I don't like anyone. Ever. Because everyone has something they've said or done that I don't agree with as part of myself.
> 
> Personally I am a little puzzled about this quote on Pike. Given the time he was alive, Confederate, Union or anywhere around the world, I don't think it would have been common for anyone to swear an oath of any kind to "negroes". For that reason the whole quote seems a little puzzling to me. 1) Why would anyone think Pike swore his oath to blacks? Or that anyone was swearing to blacks? And 2) how would his NOT having sworn to blacks make him different form someone that did?
> 
> (Disclaimer: don't read anything racist in what I said. I love all people)


If you are a MM which I don't know if you are or not. Did you take your obligation to your own race or to any worthy regular brother ? Okay with that being said, what do you mean why would he have swore an oath to a black. What does skin color have to do with freemasory please explain. If a man of color was made a mason in a regular lodge why wouldn't he have took his obligation to them ? So it's okay to say "The white freemasons have their own and the Blacks do too." How belittling and primitive does that sound ?


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## hanzosbm (Jan 21, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> If you are a MM which I don't know if you are or not. Did you take your obligation to your own race or to any worthy regular brother ? Okay with that being said, what do you mean why would he have swore an oath to a black. What does skin color have to do with freemasory please explain. If a man of color was made a mason in a regular lodge why wouldn't he have took his obligation to them ? So it's okay to say "The white freemasons have their own and the Blacks do too." How belittling and primitive does that sound ?


The oath isn't taken to anyone, black, white, or purple.  It's taken to God.  Pike is talking about who he received his oath FROM.  Big difference. 
I read Pike's quote as saying he didn't want to seek admission or appear subservient to a black man.  Obviously a racist opinion in modern times, but almost universally accepted in those times.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 21, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> The oath isn't taken to anyone, black, white, or purple.  It's taken to God.  Pike is talking about who he received his oath FROM.  Big difference.
> I read Pike's quote as saying he didn't want to seek admission or appear subservient to a black man.  Obviously a racist opinion in modern times, but almost universally accepted in those times.


Wrong ! Not universally accepted because that would mean everyone agrees with that kind of unorthodox thinking. Again, there has always been people that did not agree nor conform to these primitive ideologies. So your calling the GAOTU a bigot. Please explain . The GAOUT didn't give me a obligation that went along these lines."the day I have accept negros as brothers, or leave masonry I will leave masonry"


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## hanzosbm (Jan 21, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Wrong ! Not universally accepted because that would mean everyone agrees with that kind of unorthodox thinking. Again, there has always been people that did not agree nor conform to these primitive ideologies. So your calling the GAOTU a bigot. Please explain . The GAOUT didn't give me a obligation that went along these lines."the day I have accept negros as brothers, or leave masonry I will leave masonry"


It is clear that you have misunderstood what I said.  Allow me to try to clarify.

As I said, "*almost* universally accepted in those times".  We're not talking about equal rights here, we're talking about the view that whites and blacks were complete equals.  That notion *at that time* was almost unheard of.
Now, where in the world did you get any kind of idea that I was saying that the GAOTU was a bigot?  I said nothing even coming close to that remark.  And the GAOTU never gave you any kind of obligation of any kind, racist or otherwise.  Men did.  The obligation comes from men and is taken to the GAOTU.  If you're going to get mad at the ideas of a dead man, at least understand what ideas you're getting mad about.


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## Joseph Thornton (Jan 21, 2016)

To answer Traveling man, I am not a mason at all. I want to be. So therefore I have not taken a Masonic oath. I look forward to that honor.

hanzo makes a new valid point that your oath isn't to "anyone" at all. But to God.

Trying to restate what I asked. For that time period, why would Pike or anyone anywhere in the world swear an oath to a black man? It just wasn't done. Not even the great leaders that we think of as emancipators, abolishionists, or the greatest icons of ethnic rights, still did not practice what they preached on THAT level. So the whole statement seems puzzling to me.

As for me? If I were a deputy swearing an oath to follow the orders of a black Sheriff I'd have no problem in that sense swearing my oath "to a black man". As I said before I love all people. But I don't see Pike or anyone of THAT time period swearing an oath to a black sheriff. I was baptized in the US Army by a black chaplin. I have high regard of that memory. If a black mason were to lead me in a masonic oath or ritual, again it would be an honor. But no more or less honorable if the brother was white, Asian, native American ect ect.

So in my mind for Pike to say he didn't swear to a "negro" seems redundant. No one did right? (except other PH masons)


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 21, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> Pike is talking about who he received his oath FROM.


This is why I said that. It come off to me that you were saying the GAOTU had have given that obligation


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## Ressam (Jan 27, 2016)

Honorable Gentlemen! Especially the ones who's workin' on "additional degrees"! If there's any, on the forum.
I've got a question.
There's a motto written on the "Moral&Dogma" -- it says "Ordo ab chao".
Could you, please, explain -- what is "chaos" in Freemasonry?
What does that motto mean?
Thank you!


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## Companion Joe (Jan 27, 2016)

I don't know that the chao (chaos) is specifically meant within Freemasonry. I think it means literally the chaos of the world around us. I'm not even in the Scottish Rite, but I am a high school teacher, and my students know full well what it means when I say, "Ordo ab chao!"


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## MarkR (Jan 28, 2016)

I took it as a reference to the Scottish Rite taking control of the proliferation of "hautes grades" degrees, putting them in order and giving them more philosophical significance, as well as putting order to the process of conferring the degrees, taking it away from the traveling degree salesmen who were common at the time.


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## dfreybur (Jan 28, 2016)

Ressam said:


> There's a motto written on the "Moral&Dogma" -- it says "Ordo ab chao".
> Could you, please, explain -- what is "chaos" in Freemasonry?
> What does that motto mean?



On the surface it is a reference to the act of creation as described in the beginning of Genesis "And the earth was without form and void".

As with any good symbol it has layer after layer of symbolic meaning.  Study to transform ignorance to knowledge, superstition to wisdom.  The continuous progress of society from wilderness to future better civilizations.  The assembly of degree material into the Scottish Rite system.  and so on with many meanings.

My degree is from Excelsior College.  The word Excelsior is Latin for ever upward.  Very similar range of meanings.


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## Ressam (Jan 28, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> On the surface it is a reference to the act of creation as described in the beginning of Genesis "And the earth was without form and void".
> 
> As with any good symbol it has layer after layer of symbolic meaning.  Study to transform ignorance to knowledge, superstition to wisdom.  The continuous progress of society from wilderness to future better civilizations.  The assembly of degree material into the Scottish Rite system.  and so on with many meanings.
> 
> My degree is from Excelsior College.  The word Excelsior is Latin for ever upward.  Very similar range of meanings.



Mr.Doug, thanks for your answer!!!
Could you, please, also give "*definitions*" of these 2 words: "chao&ordo"?
Thanks again.


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## dfreybur (Jan 28, 2016)

Ressam said:


> Could you, please, also give "*definitions*" of these 2 words: "chao&ordo"?



Those are Latin words for chaos and order.  Rather than learning details of how the Latin is not the same as the modern English I go with the modern English meanings, though not the scientific meanings of entropy and crystal.


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## Ressam (Jan 28, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Those are Latin words for chaos and order.  Rather than learning details of how the Latin is not the same as the modern English I go with the modern English meanings, though not the scientific meanings of entropy and crystal.


Can you explain these words in modern English, please?
I just wanted to understand. What is "chaos" & what is "order"...


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## hanzosbm (Jan 28, 2016)

Ressam said:


> Can you explain these words in modern English, please?
> I just wanted to understand. What is "chaos" & what is "order"...



cha·os
ˈkāˌäs/disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion, mayhem, bedlam, pandemonium, havoc, turmoil, tumult, commotion, disruption, upheaval, uproar, maelstrom;More
muddle, mess, shambles, free-for-all;
anarchy, lawlessness, entropy;
_informal_hullabaloo, hoopla, train wreck, all hell broken loose
"police were called in to quell the chaos"
antonyms: order

Physics
behavior so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.
the formless matter supposed to have existed before the creation of the universe.
or·der
ˈôrdər/sequence, arrangement, organization, disposition, system, series, succession;More
grouping, classification, categorization, codification, systematization
"alphabetical order"

a state in which everything is in its correct or appropriate place.
"she tried to put her shattered thoughts into some semblance of order"
synonyms: tidiness, neatness, orderliness, organization, method, system;More
symmetry, uniformity, regularity;
routine
"his tidy desk demonstrates his sense of order"
antonyms: chaos, disarray
a state in which the laws and rules regulating the public behavior of members of a community are observed and authority is obeyed.
"the army was deployed to keep order"
synonyms: peace, control, law (and order), lawfulness, discipline, calm, (peace and) quiet, peacefulness, peaceableness
"the police were needed to keep order"
the overall state or condition of something.
"the house had just been vacated and was in good order"
synonyms: condition, state, repair, shape
"the equipment was in good order"
a particular social, political, or economic system.
"if only the peasantry would rise up against the established order"
synonyms: (class) system, hierarchy, pecking order, grading, ranking, scale
"the established social order"
the prescribed or established procedure followed by a meeting, legislative assembly, debate, or court of law.
"the meeting was *called to order*"
a stated form of liturgical service, or of administration of a rite or ceremony, prescribed by ecclesiastical authority.
*2*.
an authoritative command, direction, or instruction.
"he was not going to take orders from a mere administrator"
synonyms: command, instruction, directive, direction, decree, edict, injunction, mandate, dictate, commandment, rescript;More
law, rule, regulation, diktat;
demand, bidding, requirement, stipulation;
_informal_say-so;
_formal_ordinance;
_literary_behest
"I had to obey her orders"
antonyms: suggestion

an oral or written request for something to be made, supplied, or served.
"the company has won an order for six tankers"
synonyms: commission, contract, purchase order, request, requisition;More
booking, reservation
"the company has won the order"
antonyms: chaos
a thing made, supplied, or served as a result of an oral or written request.
"orders will be delivered the next business day"
a written direction of a court or judge.
"a judge's order forbidding the reporting of evidence"
a written direction to pay money or deliver property.
*3*.
a social class.
"the upper social orders"
synonyms: class, level, rank, grade, degree, position, category;
_dated_station
"the lower orders of society"

Biology
a principal taxonomic category that ranks below class and above family.
synonyms: taxonomic group, class, family, species, breed;
taxon
"the higher orders of insects"
a grade or rank in the Christian ministry, especially that of bishop, priest, or deacon.
the rank or position of a member of the clergy or an ordained minister of a church.
"he took priest's orders"
Theology
any of the nine grades of angelic beings in the celestial hierarchy.
*4*.
a society of monks, priests, nuns, etc., living according to certain religious and social regulations and discipline and at least some of whose members take solemn vows.
"the Franciscan Order"
synonyms: community, brotherhood, sisterhood, organization, association, society, fellowship, fraternity, confraternity, congregation, sodality, lodge, guild, league, union, club;
sect
"a religious order"

historical
a society of knights bound by a common rule of life and having a combined military and monastic character.
an institution founded by a monarch for the purpose of conferring an honor or honors for merit on those appointed to it.
the insignia worn by members of an order of honor or merit.
a Masonic or similar fraternal organization.
synonyms: community, brotherhood, sisterhood, organization, association, society, fellowship, fraternity, confraternity, congregation, sodality, lodge, guild, league, union, club;
sect
"a religious order"
*5*.
used to describe the quality, nature, or importance of something.
"with musical talent of this order, von Karajan would have been a phenomenon in any age"
synonyms: type, kind, sort, nature, variety;More
quality, caliber, standard
"skills of a very high order"
*6*.
any of the five classical styles of architecture (Doric, Ionic, Corinthian, Tuscan, and Composite) based on the proportions of columns, amount of decoration, etc.

any style or mode of architecture subject to uniform established proportions.
*7*.
Military
equipment or uniform for a specified purpose or of a specified type.
"drill order"

the position in which a rifle is held after ordering arms.
noun: *the order*
*8*.
Mathematics
the degree of complexity of an equation, expression, etc., as denoted by an ordinal number.

the number of differentiations required to reach the highest derivative in a differential equation.
the number of elements in a finite group.
the number of rows or columns in a square matrix.
_verb_
verb: *order*; 3rd person present: *orders*; past tense: *ordered*; past participle: *ordered*; gerund or present participle: *ordering
1*.
give an authoritative direction or instruction to do something.
"she ordered me to leave"
synonyms: instruct, command, direct, enjoin, tell, require, charge;More
_formal_adjure;
_literary_bid
"he ordered me to return"
decree, ordain, rule, legislate, dictate, prescribe
"the judge ordered that their assets be confiscated"

continually tell someone in an overbearing way what to do.
synonyms: tell what to do, give orders to, dictate to;More
lay down the law to;
_informal_boss around, push around
"what makes him think he can just waltz in and start ordering us about?"
North American
command (something) to be done or (someone) to be treated in a particular way.
"he ordered the anchor dropped"
*2*.
request (something) to be made, supplied, or served.
"my friend ordered the tickets last week"
synonyms: request, apply for, place an order for;More
book, reserve, preorder;
_formal_bespeak
"you can order your tickets by phone"
*3*.
arrange (something) in a methodical or appropriate way.


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## Ressam (Jan 28, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> cha·os
> ˈkāˌäs/disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion, mayhem, bedlam, pandemonium, havoc, turmoil, tumult, commotion, disruption, upheaval, uproar, maelstrom;More
> muddle, mess, shambles, free-for-all;
> anarchy, lawlessness, entropy;
> ...



Thanks, Sir.
Probably, I've understand.
Anyone can explain these words as he wishes, as he undersyands. OK!
P.S. I can explain!(Why I asked this questions about "definitions").
From my, non-masonic, profaneous point of view, when I, of course, may be mistaken(!), the motto should be quite opposite!
"Chao ab ordo"! Cause, IMHO, there's The Order everywhere in The Universe. And on The Earth, of course, also!
The Harmony! The Law! The Reality!
And, furtherly, We, The Humans, Homo Sapiens, sometimes/often(may be we don't wanna do it, but), make Chaos, by our behaviour.
And, then, by the "instruments", such a Wars or Disasters -- we again bein' put into The Order.

Thanks again for your answers!


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## dfreybur (Jan 29, 2016)

Ressam said:


> From my, non-masonic, profaneous point of view, when I, of course, may be mistaken(!), the motto should be quite opposite!
> "Chao ab ordo"! Cause, IMHO, there's The Order everywhere in The Universe. And on The Earth, of course, also!



In science order is free energy that can potentially be spent.  Chaos is entropy which is energy that has been spent and converted to waste heat.  In science chaos forever expands as far as the entire universe is concerned.  So yes "chaos from order" is a phrasing of the second law of thermodynamics.  Here's a good short tutorial on the topic -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics

Life is a local increase in order that generates a global increase in entropy.  Orderly life consumes fuel, burns that fuel and releases the energy as waste heat.  it seems a contradiction but the total increase of waste heat is faster than it would be in a system without life.

This happens on many scales.  Civilization has cities of neatly ordered buildings made of neatly ordered materials so civilization has more local order than wilderness.  Yet civilization has nuclear power plants that burn up uranium vastly faster than nature, coal plants that release energy and so on down our long list of energy sources.

Life emerges from non-life in the building act of creation.  This is order from chaos.  It's also local.  Civilization emerges from wilderness in the building act of construction (both literal and moral, both operative and speculative).  This is order from chaos.  It's scale of locality is larger.  But in every case, entropy increases for the entire universe.

The idea that humans produce order from chaos is an important one no matter the second law of thermodynamics.


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## Ressam (Jan 30, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Life emerges from *non-life* in the building act of creation. This is order from chaos. It's also local. Civilization emerges from *wilderness* in the building act of construction (both literal and moral, both operative and speculative). This is order from chaos.



Thanks for you Your answer, Mr.Doug!
But, IMHO -- "non-life" & "wilderness" can also be within The Order.


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## AndreAshlar (Feb 5, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I've often wonder why so many freemasons praise Albert Pike. I understand he is responsible for a lot of the education on the Scottish Rite, but how could a man who writes a book Morals and Dogma and I quote from his book " I took my obligations from white men, not from negroes. When I have to accept negroes as brothers or leave masonry, I shall leave it" be praised as a righteous man. I also wonder if that's why there is so much confusion within our craft. Are freemasons today still only  taking their obligation to a certain race. I took my obligation to all worthy master mason. If Freemasonry teaches that all masons meet on the "Level" then why would a man that makes a statement off the Level be glorified.


Freemasonry is a microcosm of society when it comes to race.  Despite what we profess to stand for, we lack the compassion due to a brother when confronted with racism and it's impact on our past, present and future.   We are not comfortable in this arena.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Feb 5, 2016)

AndreAshlar said:


> Freemasonry is a microcosm of society when it comes to race.  Despite what we profess to stand for, we lack the compassion due to a brother when confronted with racism and it's impact on our past, present and future.   We are not comfortable in this arena.


Very well said


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## dfreybur (Feb 5, 2016)

Ressam said:


> But, IMHO -- "non-life" & "wilderness" can also be within The Order.



Correct.  More science -

When a liquid condenses into a solid, waste heat is released thus increasing the local order and also increasing the total entropy of the universe.  When a solid melts into a liquid, that exact same amount of heat is absorbed but the entropy in the liquid is higher than it was in the solid.  The heat had to come from somewhere and it can't come from the heat lost at condensation because that heat was lost.  These are called the heat of fusion no matter the direction of the flow.

When a gas condenses into a liquid, waste heat is released thus increasing the local order and also increasing the total entropy of the universe.  When a liquid evaporates into a gas, the exact same amount of heat is absorbed but the entropy in the gas is  higher than it was in the liquid.  The heat had to come from somewhere and it can't come from the heat lost at evaporation because that heat was lost.  These are called heat of vaporization no matter the direction of the flow.

The science of thermodynamics didn't exist yet when our degrees where written.  On a human scale, though, what we see is the increased order.  What we see is order from chaos.  It takes instruments to discover that there is a net chaos from order happening in the form of waste heat.  Humans don't think in terms of waste heat.  Waste heat is not poetic or philosophical.  Waste heat is a matter of mundane book keeping.


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## Ressam (Feb 5, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> *The science of thermodynamics didn't exist yet when our degrees where written*. On a human scale, though, what we see is the increased order. What we see is order from chaos. It takes instruments to discover that there is a net chaos from order happening in the form of waste heat. Humans don't think in terms of waste heat. Waste heat is not poetic or philosophical. Waste heat is a matter of mundane book keeping.



Thanks for Your answer, Mr. Doug! 
Probably, you all are right. I'm not arguin'. I just want to understand! The Freemasonry. 
Pike's book was published in *1872*, and Industrial Revolution, probably, was happenin' at he same time, approx. *1760-1840*.
So, Pike, maybe've known about Thermodynamics. 
But, IMHO, of course, maybe *I'm mistaken*, but this motto "Ordo Ab Chao" is applicable to *Social* Science not to Natural Science.
I mean -- Chaos is existin' -- between Human Relations, Behaviour. Not in Nature.
I just wonder about one thing. Why Pike was was so *pessimistic*? 
As I've understand from his Book -- he was very clever man! With such encyclopaedic mind.
Of course(!), I think, he'd known that basic Words from *Matthew:22-37-40* --(IMHO, this is *The Core/Heart/Kernel of Perfect Teaching,*
this is *The Essence of Being*!):

[*37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.]
*
But, I think, I probably understand Pike's pessimism.
At that that there was an American Civil War, if I'm not mistaken, of course -- it was hard to obey this Love Philosophy.

So, Mr.Doug, we are lucky, I think, that we are living in such a Wonderful Times peaceful times(relatively)! 
Lets pray for that -- World War 3 will not happen! 
Let's pray for that -- Global Natural Disaster will not happen!
IMO, if *everyone* on The Earth will *truly* pray for that -- everythin' will be allright.


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## Mel Knight (Feb 6, 2016)

Yes I'm black & I haven't read much of Alberts work but I will say this, I've read some of Crowley's work, hitler etc. I try not to judge that person and just focus on knowledge and wisdom. I may fully disagree with their choices of how one may have lived his/her life but knowledge and wisdom come in all shapes and forms. Does it matter if Albert was racist or not? Does he speak for all? I would say no


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## Brother JC (Feb 7, 2016)

Mel Knight said:


> I try not to judge that person and just focus on knowledge and wisdom. I may fully disagree with their choices of how one may have lived his/her life but knowledge and wisdom come in all shapes and forms.


Indeed. Henry Ford was an Anglophobe and as anti-Semitic as they came, but few ignore his legacy and walk everywhere they go.


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## dfreybur (Feb 8, 2016)

Ressam said:


> Pike's book was published in *1872*, and Industrial Revolution, probably, was happenin' at he same time, approx. *1760-1840*.  So, Pike, maybe've known about Thermodynamics.



When I write "our degrees" I mean the basic 3.  The third degree was in place by the end of the 1720s.  This thread is about the Scottish Rite motto and it's degrees came later.  Thanks for that correction.



> But, IMHO, of course, maybe *I'm mistaken*, but this motto "Ordo Ab Chao" is applicable to *Social* Science not to Natural Science.



Exactly.  The human perception of chaos not the technical definition that is entropy.  You asked if the order might be wrong and that lead me down the physical sciences path.



> Lets pray for that -- World War 3 will not happen



I was in the military during the Cold War.  To me that counted as WW-3 and it fortunately ended without nukes.

I have read too much history to be optimistic about the crusades happening in the world in this century.  Count the centuries from the foundation of Christianity to the start of those Crusades.  Count the centuries from the foundation of Islam to the start of the crusades happening now.  The same number of centuries.  Count the centuries that the first set of crusades happened.  Hug your (great)^5th grandchildren.  I pray that it never goes nuclear.



> Let's pray for that -- Global Natural Disaster will not happen!



I have read too much science to think that will be avoided.  I have also read enough history to know that society advances greatly during great disasters both natural and human made.  Agriculture was invented because the glaciers receded.  Rome and China both invented stable civil service governments during centuries of extremely heavy winters.  The Renaissance happened during an era of widespread war.  Airplanes were perfected during two large wars.  Atomic power was invented during a large war.  There's a curse - May you be born during interesting times.  When it comes to natural disasters we were definitely born during interesting times.

I pray for a golden age to emerge from the trauma of natural disaster.


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## Ressam (Feb 13, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> Albert Pike was a Luciferian .. He's made some big claims about Lucifer and Freemasonry... That many masons don't agree with ... So take it as you will.
> 
> From my experience with Satanism and Luciferianism.. its almost the worship of the ego... which is destructive in the long run.. The ego is like a balloon filled with hot air.. as soon as it pops, its useless and reality hits hard.



Yes!
*Selfishness* & *Mammon* are the main concepts to struggle with. All problems come from these 2 things.
And another error is that -- *Satan* & *Lucifer* are the same beings!
*Satan* is -- *The substance which is only existing within Humans on The Earth*!
And *The Lucifer* is just -- *The Extraterrestrial Civilization Boss, Who is acting with accordance with The Rules of GAOTU*!
People should not confuse that matter!


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## Ressam (Feb 13, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> Woah that's an interesting perspective the last 2 sentences you said! Can you explain more in a pm conversation? I would love to hear. But keep in mind im not a mason.. just so you know not to mention masonic concepts i might not be familiar with.. I just want to hear about the "Lucifer is just the extraterrestrial civilization boss"  part.. That sounds pretty interesting!



Nothin' interesting!
What exactly you wanna know?
Ask clear question.


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## Ressam (Feb 13, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> Why do you feel "Lucifer is the extraterrestrial civilization boss"



I'm not "feeling" it! I "know" that!


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## Ressam (Feb 14, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> How do you know it?


What do you mean by the word "how"?
I know it by brain. By mind. By consciouss.



DeusLuxVitam said:


> but things you read do not become valid based upon your belief.


Valid?
So, you don't believe that Lucifer is existing?


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