# Time Limits



## Blake Bowden (Jul 13, 2009)

I vote NO. If a Brother wants to be an EA for 20 years, so be it. I think by removing the time limit it allows a Brother to enjoy and learn each degree more thoroughly. I also feel that an individual will have a better understanding of each degree without the rush to become a Master Mason. What are your thoughts?


----------



## rhitland (Jul 13, 2009)

Maybe a Lodge could see fit to put time frames on proficiency but easliy bend them when needed. This is something GL should leave to the Lodge.


----------



## scottmh59 (Jul 13, 2009)

rhitland said:


> Maybe a Lodge could see fit to put time frames on proficiency but easliy bend them when needed. This is something GL should leave to the Lodge.



i agree rhit, the lodge should have the say in how long it takes someone to learn their work.when the person gets rushed they will not be enjoying the work being learned,and will not look forward the the next degrees.


----------



## TCShelton (Jul 13, 2009)

Gotta go no as well.  This should be up to each individual.


----------



## 4thgenPM (Jul 14, 2009)

Brethren, I agree with you that this is something that is completely individualized but there must be some form of structure to advancing through the degrees.  That is why there is a 1 year time limit on automatic advancement upon completion of the proficiency exam for EAs and FCs and a 90 day period for new MMs.  If an EA or FC needs more time than the 1 year, they can continue to study and attend degree work (and even stated meetings now) but they cannot advance until they complete the Petition for Advancement.  As such, it is possible for someone to remain an EA for 20 years or more (see Bro. Lyndon B. Johnson) but at some point the question must be asked about why the Brother would choose not to advance...is there something he expected to get out of Masonry that he isn't getting? Were his expectations unrealistic and not caught during the investigative process?  

Once the Brother is ready to advance, all he needs to do is complete the 1 page "Petition for Advancement" and submit it to the Lodge for a vote.  As long as there are no objections, it is balloted upon by a show of hands at the same meeting.  If there is an objection, an investigative committee is assigned and the ballot takes place at the next stated meeting.  

In regards to the new MM, if he doesn't return the catechism and the ALL program within 90 days, he actually stands automatically suspended and should not attend Lodge or participate in any activity other than completing his requirements.

The issue at the heart of this is: what do we expect of our Brethren and at least some minimal level of commitment to our customs and traditions, and secondly, what do our new Brethren expect of us and are we doing a good enough job in our investigative process to ensure that they are coming in with a solid understanding and reasonable expectations of the Masonic experience?


----------



## nick1368 (Jul 14, 2009)

I have to agree with Bro. Moore,  there needs to be some type of structure for advancement.


----------



## RedTemplar (Jul 20, 2009)

One thing I have never completely understood is why would a man pay dues for 20 years as an EA?


----------



## TCShelton (Jul 20, 2009)

RedTemplar said:


> One thing I have never completely understood is why would a man pay dues for 20 years as an EA?



EAs don't pay dues.  They pay the one-time EA degree fee.


----------



## RedTemplar (Jul 20, 2009)

EAs pay dues in Kentucky


----------



## TCShelton (Jul 21, 2009)

RedTemplar said:


> EAs pay dues in Kentucky



Wow, that would suck then.  How much are their dues compared to MM dues?  Same?


----------



## Wingnut (Jul 21, 2009)

Why would anyone want to stay an EA?  they cant vote, cant be on committees and as you said dont pay dues (in Texas).  They can stay an EA forever today, but after 1 year they have to re-petition to advance and shouldnt be allowed into the lodge after the year is expired.

Ive never seen an *active *EA that took even close to a year to finish and move up to FC.  Keyword there is ACTIVE.  We have enough members already.


----------



## owls84 (Jul 21, 2009)

I vote no. I voted this way because I feel that to truly do the degree there is more than just the memory work. There is a side to Masonry that is being left out and to me it is the side that Masonry is founded on. I am having to find that with a select few number of guys but because no one at my Lodge wants to look at that side it is not being shown to new members. I believe we need to come up with something better than the ALL program. Lets raise the bar a little bit. Too often we get in a rush because a man takes a while to learn his work. I think if we remember there is more to it then the memory work then we can really start to help these people who have obviously came to us in search of something. What are we giving them now that they can't get at a church or other support group? 

When people tell me traditions by learning the work I always respond with, "Give me a year, I can teach a parrot the memory work. But to dig and learn what you are saying that takes time." Usually less than a year but if a man wants to be an EA longer why not let him and make it easy for him to be an EA. If this happens I could see why a man would be forced to pay annual dues as an EA though.


----------



## RedTemplar (Jul 22, 2009)

I can't state the official rationale behind EAs being charged the same dues as MMs. My guess is that it encourages EAs and FCs to get their proficiencies turned in more quickly and it means more money for the GL. But, as for me, I will take quality over quantity every time.


----------



## rhitland (Jul 22, 2009)

Wingnut said:


> Why would anyone want to stay an EA?  they cant vote, cant be on committees and as you said dont pay dues (in Texas).  They can stay an EA forever today, but after 1 year they have to re-petition to advance and shouldnt be allowed into the lodge after the year is expired.
> 
> Ive never seen an *active *EA that took even close to a year to finish and move up to FC.  Keyword there is ACTIVE.  We have enough members already.




An EA can be buried as a Mason no matter how long ago it was so maybe that is all they wanted to be buried like Grandpa. Right Worshipful said an EA can be allowed back in Lodge after the year for instruction purposes and further said that listening to open and close of a lodge is instruction therefore they can attend lodge forever as an EA why I am not sure. This is directly from RW Tommie Guest at a Sec School. Donny Broughton also said the same thing but I was not there to witness so it is hear say on his part. It would be up to the lodge to let them in but it is legal if they want to.


----------



## Wingnut (Jul 23, 2009)

I guess they are the boss, but seems to take away some incentive to advance.


----------



## Hippie19950 (Jul 23, 2009)

I feel a year is a decent time to learn the work we are expected to learn and turn in for E.A. and FC. Now, if I have learned everything there is when turning in the work, then I no longer need to come around right? My thoughts are that we should teach the candidates as much as they can learn, as quickly as they can learn, but let's start with the memory work. I learned the memory work, questions and answers, and turned it in. As I have continue to attend Lodge, and meet with Brothers there, and else where, I am learning more about what I should be. I guess I had a little head start, or inside help, in that I have pretty much always been around Masons, and watched and listened, and asked questions. I also spent many years investigating crimes, so my skills of observance may have been a little keener than the average person. At any rate, I feel we should get them in, teach them the memory work, and continue to teach them the values we each expect, all the while making it interesting. I am still learning, and hope to continue to do so. I am still excited about Masonry, and enjoy any chance to tell someone else about it when they ask. It is usually because of a sticker on my Jeep, my belt buckle, or the strange emblems in the paint work on my motorcycle. None have yet asked for a Petition, but like cards, the winning one will come up at some time..


----------



## owls84 (Jul 24, 2009)

See I am back and forth on this for the reason of people learning diffrently. I know some the esoterical and other like to sit back and hang out. Maybe they get involved in the fundraiser/community involvement side. I just don't know though because we all join to get something personal out of it. I really believe that if the investigations go well and they discuss a plan for each candidate (roll they can play in a Lodge) then base it off of that. I think a year is good as well but what I think is that there is more than the memory work that needs to be taught. Things like the symbolism and how it is different to everyone or the duties of officers. I think once we do this we give people a purpose and a place to get that little something extra. Then we become more than the Lions Club or the Kiwanians. You will see attendance rise and then we have more than 10% participation. I'm just saying lets not rush it. If a candidate gets into the studies and wants to learn more then lets let him without additional paperwork or anything. 

I guess let me ask this, Why is there a timeline? So what if it takes 2 years for an EA to "learn" what he wants. I know they do this in Scotland. I have actually been told that Master Mason in Scotland is a very big accomplishment and they feel ours is a bit watered down.


----------



## Wingnut (Jul 24, 2009)

Im being somewhat guarded in my answer because of where this is posted...

Lets be honest, the rule was changed to allow stated meetings to be opened in the EA and FC in an attempt to try to keep more of our EA/FC advancing and involved.  Prior to that we told them "welcome!  you got a great degree!  We want you to be part of us... Now, get out and dont come back until your ready to get your next degree.  OH we are having a dinner next month before the stated meeting, come on up we need someone to wash dishes."

I was all for the change at the time, now I often question it...  EAs dont pay dues, cant vote, depending on the floor school or esoteric work being taught cant attend some classes.  And since we open in the EA/FC we cant have a lot of the 'higher' education during lodge unless we boot them out.  

As is often said and often observed, Masonry is not a race but a journey.  A Mason never stops learning, especially if you get into the Scottish Rite (had to insert a plug for the University of Masonry).  Even after you complete the profecency work there is still a life time of learning that needs to be done...


----------



## HKTidwell (Dec 6, 2010)

rhitland said:


> An EA can be buried as a Mason no matter how long ago it was so maybe that is all they wanted to be buried like Grandpa....



Art. 360....(near the end)
".....  The privilege of a Masonic funeral, when requested, shall be extended to Entered Apprentices and Fellowcrafts who die within twelve months of the conferral of the Entered Apprentice or Fellowcraft Degree upon them, or have petitioned and been favorably balloted upon for advancement subject to the other applicable provisions of this Article."

I've not seen anybody vote against the advancement of degrees(Art. 434a) when it is required for time having lapsed.  I agree with having a time requirement because I think it probably helps some dedicate effort in a timely fashion to complete the work.


----------



## jwhoff (Dec 10, 2010)

I lean yes.  But only because some of them find other, and less masonic, things to do with their time.  Like General Forrester of KKK fame.  He was but an EA.  Not sure whether he learned much work thereafter or not.  Too many folks still throw it in your face that some are considered masons, whether they traveled far enough along the way to become a MM. 

Many men make one circumambulation but aren't worthy of the craft in the long run.  For this reason we should guard the craft closely.


----------



## Beathard (Feb 21, 2011)

What about the EA that is doing his best to learn the work, but can't due to a learning disability? I have a student who has an auditory processing disorder. I don't believe he will ever be able to get past the exam, but he is very active in our fundraising and charity work. He would make a very good, non-esoteric mason. Do we make allowances for people like this?


----------



## Dave in Waco (Feb 21, 2011)

Beathard said:


> What about the EA that is doing his best to learn the work, but can't due to a learning disability? I have a student who has an auditory processing disorder. I don't believe he will ever be able to get past the exam, but he is very active in our fundraising and charity work. He would make a very good, non-esoteric mason. Do we make allowances for people like this?



I think that is why it is left up to the lodge on approving his work to advance versus the DI or CoW.  I think the lodge will recognize that he has a learning disability and grade any work he turns in accordingly, especially considering that he has been quite active in the lodge.  Perfect memorization of the work doesn't make a man a better Mason.  We each turn it in and are graded according to our gifts.  

As for the EA you mentioned, I would say that is a challenge for not only the EA but his instructor to overcome.  He may try lipreading or visual signs to help in his work.  But I have found that when a brother like this EA comes along, the lodge will do what they need to do to help him in any and every way they can.  I know in my lodge we have a brother who has a speech problem.  But there isn't a sole in the lodge that won't give him all the time he needs to get any oral work he has out.  He knows the work and is very active in the lodge.  And because of the brothers in the lodge getting behind him and giving him encouragement, he also earned a C certificate this year.  And I dare say his C means more then any A or Lifetime Certificate in the lodge.


----------



## JJones (Jun 15, 2011)

I know some people who have taken too long for their proficiency and haven't come back when they were finally able to again because they didn't want to go through the EA degree again.

Why should they have to anyhow?  They can be taught everything they forgot and be reminded of their obligations without having to go through the ritual again.


----------



## relapse98 (Jun 15, 2011)

Dave in Waco said:


> I think that is why it is left up to the lodge on approving his work to advance versus the DI or CoW.  I think the lodge will recognize that he has a learning disability and grade any work he turns in accordingly, especially considering that he has been quite active in the lodge.  Perfect memorization of the work doesn't make a man a better Mason.  We each turn it in and are graded according to our gifts.


 
This popped up today because of JJones reply to it.

Dave, thank you for this answer, I personally needed that. I need to learn to realize that not all brothers are physically (seems the older gentlemen have a harder time learning the work) of learning the work approaching 100%. If a man does his best, what more can we ask of him.


----------



## Bill Lins (Jun 16, 2011)

JJones said:


> I know some people who have taken too long for their proficiency and haven't come back when they were finally able to again because they didn't want to go through the EA degree again.
> 
> Why should they have to anyhow?  They can be taught everything they forgot and be reminded of their obligations without having to go through the ritual again.



I've never heard of a man having to be initiated more than once. They can be gone as long as they want to be, turn in the work of their last degree, petition the Lodge for advancement, and then advance.


----------



## Bigmel (Jun 16, 2011)

That's the way I read the Law Book Bro Lins.  There are rules they have to follow.  But receiving the degrees again is not one of them.


----------



## JJones (Jun 16, 2011)

That's very new information to me!  I was always under the impression you had to undergo the degree again if you took too long to turn in your proficiency.

I always thought that was sort of the 'penalty' (for lack of a better word) for exceeding the time limit.  If that's not the case then what are the repercussions for taking too long?


----------



## jwhoff (Jun 16, 2011)

The penalty can come from the lack of support (hence being stopped) by the lodge when it votes against advancement.


----------



## nwendele (Jun 16, 2011)

JJones said:


> I always thought that was sort of the 'penalty' (for lack of a better word) for exceeding the time limit. If that's not the case then what are the repercussions for taking too long?


 

In Texas, you must petition for advancement. I did this just months ago. I was very active right after my initiation, but due to a promotion, I got too busy at work to practice my memory work. I also have a wife and young twin daughters that keep me busy. My brothers knew what was going on, and were very supportive. I made lodge once a month, but not often enough to get my memory done. As soon as I was able to hire some help, I was again at the lodge weekly. I was ready to turn in, but it had been 14 months. I did my proficiency, afterward, the Secretary gave me my original petition (for reference), and a blank petition for advancement. I filled it out, and it was voted on the next meeting. Then I was passed to Fellowcraft, and I will be raised the 30th of this month.

There are a few of us who take more than 1 year to pass EA who continue our Masonic journey!


----------



## David Duke (Jun 16, 2011)

JJones said:
			
		

> That's very new information to me!  I was always under the impression you had to undergo the degree again if you took too long to turn in your proficiency.
> 
> I always thought that was sort of the 'penalty' (for lack of a better word) for exceeding the time limit.  If that's not the case then what are the repercussions for taking too long?



Our goal is to help a fellow brother, "life happens" sometimes a persons situation changes and he doesn't have the time necessary to learn the work why would you want to penalize him?  Besides a second  go at the same degree wouldn't be a penalty and would serve no purpose.  Now if the brother is found to have moral or legal issues during the investigation it can be taken care of with the ballot.


----------



## jwhoff (Jun 16, 2011)

I must rewind my comments.  Yes, no one should ever be stopped for delays in completing their work.  The nay votes for moral or legal issues are more likely to be acted upon should a vote become necessary for advancement.  All too many times such considerations are not looked at seriously otherwise.  

Again, one should think long and hard before casting a nay vote on advancement due only to time limits.  We are here to help one another.


----------



## JJones (Jun 16, 2011)

Well I learned something new today!  Thanks for sharing brothers.


----------



## Brent Heilman (Jun 17, 2011)

JJones said:


> Well I learned something new today!  Thanks for sharing brothers.


 
As did I. It certainly seems that everyday I learn something new here. Thank you Brothers.


----------



## Michaelstedman81 (Jun 17, 2011)

I am more in the middle of yes and no on this one the way the question is proposed.  I did vote yes that there should be some time limits.  However, my vote for yes is probably not for the same reasons as most others are talking about when it comes to time limits.  What I mean is, instead of having a maximum amount of time to turn in the work and move up to the next degree, what about having a minimum amount of time a person should serve at that degree before being allowed to turn in the work and moving up?  Lol, hear me out first.

I have been doing some reading that a long time ago they would make the apprentices serve under the masters for a long period of time learning the craft.  I have read that sometimes it would be just one year, but I have also read some other sources that would say that they would serve about seven years.  Then, once they reach that next degree they would serve in that level learning that part of the trade for a good while and if were proficient at it, they could move up again after another required time.  Now, I know that was back in the "operative" days and we are all "speculative", so I am not saying that an EA needs to wait seven years...lol  

Now, I do totally agree that if we were to say that a man has to serve as an EA for a year before he can become an FC, and then stay an FC for a year before becoming a MM would cause the numbers in membership and active members to dwindle. But to paraphrase what someone else said in this forum "quality to quantity".  I pick quality.  Every man learns his own way, and some take longer than others.  I agree with what a lot of everyone on here that there is so much to learn and with the system that we have in place tends to make us want to race to become a Master Mason.  If the time limits were turned around, there wouldn't be that rush cause the candidates would know that they have to serve a minimum amount of time before they can achieve that goal.  Yea sure, we all know that it hardly ever takes anyone the full year to learn the proficiency work, but what all are they learning before they turn it in really?  Other than the Q's and A's, what deeper stuff are they learning about themsleves, the Craft, and that internal temple we are trying to build?

In summary, I did vote yes that there should be some time limits, but not in the manner that we use them today.  Have someone serve a minimum amount of time and at the end of the time, turn in the the proficiency.  There very well could be less nervousness and jitteryness when they are being tested, and plus, I'm sure they could learn more about things during that time than just what is required for the proficiency.  

As always, just my own little opinion.  Plus, I think how things were done a long time ago was really cool...lol


----------



## dreamer (Sep 4, 2012)

There are Pros and Cons to time limits, but there should be some reasonable amount of time in completing the degrees. Yes, there are exceptions where some Brothers may need more time, but 20 years! What bothers me is that these Brothers may be taking a while to complete their degrees have  legitimate reasons, however, the Brother who is sitting idle (not coming to meetings, not studying, etc.) has no reason for taking a long time. If they need so much time, what are  they studying and how do we know if they are learning if you do not see them around. Most importantly, we  need to stop making excuses in Masonry and realize that there will always be those that come along and then disappear no matter what degree they have. We must make sure that we have a viable education committee in place to immediately begin the education for the candidate/Brother (easier said than done), but it must happen, or else we stand to lose good Brothers. And we need follow up on all Brothers with their education so we can advance them is a reasonable amount of time.

In Arizona there is a elapsed time of two years(failure to advance) between degrees (exceptions as always) but it is a reasonable amount of time if one is committed. Of course it becomes harder when a military person is PCS'ed or deployed.

There is a person where I live who is a 20 year EA and has no desire to return. Some Lodge lost him and how many other Lodges will lose Brothers like this?


----------



## jvarnell (Sep 4, 2012)

Wingnut said:


> Why would anyone want to stay an EA? they cant vote, cant be on committees and as you said dont pay dues (in Texas). They can stay an EA forever today, but after 1 year they have to re-petition to advance and shouldnt be allowed into the lodge after the year is expired.
> 
> Ive never seen an *active *EA that took even close to a year to finish and move up to FC. Keyword there is ACTIVE. We have enough members already.



I don't want to stay a EA but I am slow with this process.  SOme will be fast and some will be slow.  I am going to do the EA in less time than aloted but was told all that had to happen if I did not was the lodge vote for mor time.  Some times life happens and one part or another of the gage is not able to be used.


----------



## dreamer (Sep 4, 2012)

jvarnell said:


> I don't want to stay a EA but I am slow with this process.  SOme will be fast and some will be slow.  I am going to do the EA in less time than aloted but was told all that had to happen if I did not was the lodge vote for mor time.  Some times life happens and one part or another of the gage is not able to be used.


 
Does your jurisdiction allow for "Minimum Proficiency," steps, due guards, signs, grips and words rather than the catechism?


----------



## Bill Lins (Oct 13, 2012)

dreamer said:


> Does your jurisdiction allow for "Minimum Proficiency," steps, due guards, signs, grips and words rather than the catechism?



No.


----------



## dfreybur (Nov 18, 2013)

I favor time limits but in years rather than months.  Give a brother plenty of time but be able to drop them from the books after a few years if they drop out.

I am uncomfortable with a rule that requires a proficiency be delivered in a few months.  I think the reason is to keep brothers moving through their work.  I would like to see the aging data before and after the rule was passed - Data rules to this engineer.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Oct 9, 2014)

TCShelton said:


> Gotta go no as well.  This should be up to each individual.


Same here.


----------

