# Greetings



## robert sheehan (Feb 26, 2020)

I am wondering if Masonry is an entirely different fraternity from one place to the next.
Reading through the forum I wonder what others might consider a “good man” and what making the man better actually entails.
I am an EA and am hoping to do my prof and receive me FC degree soon.
What do you consider a “Good Man”? Is it one who came from good stock? Had parents who didn’t do a poor job raising him? Is it a man who comes from money? If not money, would it be men with higher than average IQ? Or does a good man go to church regularly? Perhaps he doesn’t use drugs. 
A good man is not a perfect man. There is nothing in the world that will change that. But do we judge solely on one action? Many actions? Do we consider the gravity of an action by itself or would it be wise to also consider the circumstances?  If one had to beg to eat, if one had to steal to feed, if one was a drug addict or an alcoholic, do any of you presume to judge that person as having permanently failed and has been forever denied the possibility of being what we would consider a good man?
In some instances can a Mason not accept another Mason as a brother because the rules of one Lodge would not permit petitioning where the other lodge would? If my lodge “hypothetically speaking” allowed one to have tattoos on ones face but your lodge allows NO visible tattoos, would the subject not be your brother even if he were a Mason?
And what of the addict, the thief, the drunk, the ex con, the atheist or, worse, the satanist?  Pretend these subjects were forced into a lifestyle of moral bankruptcy. Or a child thrown out of a home and desperate. A person who made decisions based on a life of circumstances that did not afford him a clear enough mind to think through his decisions or realize the outcome of his actions. Is this person not allowed to be a good man? 
I am here for the discussion and to gain better wisdom. But this has bothered me because it is a contradiction I see. Contradictions are inflammatory. 
I know it is a long post but would love to discuss.


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## Bloke (Feb 27, 2020)

Hello Brother

Contemplation I think is one of the essences of Freemasonry, so its good to see you are contemplating !

I will offer an opinion, but it should only be seen as such. An Opinion is not Truth, just an opinion... and a stubborn man does not hold opinions, they hold him, so my opinion might change.. again, positive change and understanding is at the core of Freemasonry.

Firstly, I would start with Freemasonry is a privilege not a right. Under many Constitutions (Rules of a specific Grand Lodge) men loose the right to the privilege of Freemasonry if they have done (and been convicted) some of the things you mention. Each Grand Lodge has the right as a Sovereign Entity to regulate its own lodges... A Grand Lodge might hold a position I do not agree with, but again, the essence of Freemasonry is recognizing Good Character and putting those differences aside. Putting prejudice aside. (And I can certainly say I am aware of one lodge in my jurisdiction did that, examined a man's character and admitted him as a Freemason, putting aside the fact he had significant non-tribal facial tattoos.. )

I think Freemasonry should value a man's character. Not his family (although good families often produce good citizens, but that is not always the case, just like traumatic families and circumstances sometimes produce outstanding individuals). . Not his bank balance, not his religion and politics. Not the colour of his skin or which Church (or Temple) he goes to... However in most places, regular Freemasonry seems to require a man have no (serious) criminal convictions. Further, I want my brothers to be of consistent good character, they may have made the odd mistake and transgression, but it should not be a pattern. I do not want people who are thieves or drug users in my lodge. I want men who aspire and basically are very trustworthy gentlemen (even if they might not be genteel) 

Freemasonry (just as the society in which it operates) varies from place to place, but it certainly has common elements. People often speak of "Freemasonry Universal" and, Americans, might describe that as being the Brotherhood of Man under the Fatherhood of God... but that in itself is not always straightforward as it anthropomorphizes the Supreme Being; than that does not always work for me personally - but I think I want my kind of Freemasonry to have a qualification of a Belief in a Supreme Being as I see that as a uniting rather than dividing thing...... That said, I think despite variance in Ceremonies and Customs, we would all know we are in a Masonic Lodge if we went visiting overseas to another Regular Constitution...

There are Masonic Systems where Freemasonry will accept atheists. That's outside my Masonic World and generally not seen as "regular" Freemasonry..

It's pretty simple for me.. if a man has been Initiated into a Regular Constitution, he is my Brother Mason. However I will controversially , go a step further,  if a woman has been initiated in a Body my GL does not reconize (Order of Women Freemasons for instance) I will consider them as participating in a different branch of the same Masonic Tree my system sprang from, and I would consider them a Freemason of a different ilk - even if I could not or would not sit in Lodge with them... nonetheless I still see that as having value as they are participating in the same Traditions I am...

All that said, and without putting you down, I think you still have a lot to discover as an EA. You are yet to learn what is contained in the next two degrees.. then you need to grow to understand them and live them. 16 years on after becoming an EA, I am still working on that and expect (and hope!) to do so for many years to come..


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## robert sheehan (Feb 27, 2020)

Thank you, Bloke, for this reply.
Forums are such an excellent tool.

That I have a LOT to learn I completely understand. I am very humble in where I am at in Freemasonry and definitely hope I am keeping myself in the proper boundaries of my position.

I don’t have tattoos on my face and I am not a criminal or drug addict, etc.  I do, however, come from a poor and very chaotic past. I have also made poor and chaotic decisions in my past.

Who and where I am, at age 40 and decades from that past, seems eons away from my 14, 15, 16 year old self.  

I do understand the importance of vetting those we may potentially associate with.  And I do understand that some people aren’t meant for Masonry and Masonry is not meant for some.

A stone worker can make a beautiful marble countertop but only from Marble. While granite can also be used for beautiful countertops, it can NEVER be used to make marble countertops. But marble, no matter what sludge, vileness and filth it may have been buried under and dug up from, is still marble. 

I absolutely respect your opinion and appreciate the manner in which you presented it.  And I have to say I do agree.

I don’t want a drug addict around me either.  I don’t want my children playing at a kids house if their parents do drugs.

We have a drug addict in our neighborhood. I say he is an addict because he considers himself an addict. Years ago he was into heavy drugs. Today he is, what I would describe as, a model citizen. He worked his way out of whatever dark place he had placed himself. 

I have made mistakes in my past. Some stupid and some serious. Age 16 was a huge turning point for me, however, and I have nothing of my character I feel I should hide today.
But there are others who have made the same exact mistakes and the way of thinking that led to those mistake has never changed. Instead it has grown, matured and those others have made a habit of living a life of transgression without regard.


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## Bloke (Feb 28, 2020)

Thank you for your reply Brother. It will  be interesting to see if other people join in.


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## robert sheehan (Feb 29, 2020)

I had hoped so. But I wonder... some topics and questions might be something I am not ready yet receive Masonic answers for. I thought about this quite a bit yesterday. 
Most of the Brethren here are MM degree and perhaps, before asking such a question I should wait to see what may already be answered in due time.
So maybe my question was just misplaced.
In the future the Brethren here will see questions like this from me and only because I love conversation points that provoke deep thought but that usually don’t boil down to a single, common conclusion.


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## TheThumbPuppy (Mar 4, 2020)

That's a very long and complex question(s). I somehow picked up an existential subtext, or perhaps it's just my personal bias. 

The thread that I read between the lines is the question, "What makes a good man? Personal will or his environment?"

I met men, whom I intuitively define as good men, who:

did not come from good stock
had parents who abused them
did not come from money
were not blessed with higher than average IQ
did not go to church regularly
The environment can offer us challenges and (in a few cases) opportunities. It's up to our personal will what choices we make to overcome our challenges and use our opportunities appropriately.

If if we exclude people who are mentally unstable, I do not believe that there is any such thing as "_A person who made decisions based on a life of circumstances that did not afford him a clear enough mind to think through his decisions or realize the outcome of his actions._"

To me, this type of narrative has been taken to an extreme and has created a society where actions have no consequences, committing a crime has rarely an adequate consequence, all bad actions are a fault of the environment who forced the individual to act that way and made the perpetrator the real victim, and so on.

That is why I do not subscribed to the ideology that anybody could be _forced into a lifestyle of moral bankruptcy_.

I have witnessed people who lived in poverty, who never stole food or committed any crime. 
I have known people who were abandoned as a baby or thrown out of home as a child and did not become a criminal or drug addict.
I myself was handed a few curved balls, but I did not use them as an excuse to lable myself a victim of circumstances who was forced into crime
I believe that if someone does something _wrong_, they've decided to do so because they thought they would benefit from it, no matter what consequences their actions would have to others, and they thought they would get away with it (and very often they do).

However I do believe that someone can make a mistake and correct his behaviour.

I know people who were addicted to drugs or alcohol and climbed their way out of it.
I know people who prostituted themselves for a short time and got out of it.
All the same, while I can empathise with their situation and applaud them for their final resolve, it was their own initial decision to respond as they did to their external circumstances. Other people who were faced with similar circumstances did not decide to – using the same examples – resort to drugs and alcohol or prostitute themselves, but found other ways.

Still if a line had to be drawn somewhere, a clean criminal record seems to me a good approximation (although not perfect) of a condition necessary – but not sufficient – to define a good man. 

I realise that this is but a small part of your question and my rant is just my own opinion at this moment in time.

We may find a few other conditions that are necessary but not sufficient to define a good man. 

I'm not quite sure whether there may be one (or more) condition that is necessary and sufficient to define a good man.


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## Mark Stockdale (Mar 7, 2020)

TheThumbPuppy said:


> Still if a line had to be drawn somewhere, a clean criminal record seems to me a good approximation (although not perfect) of a condition necessary – but not sufficient – to define a good man.



ok, here's a hypothetical scenario:

A gentleman in his late 30s has been introduced to the lodge by someone that has known them for many years, he has visited the lodge on a few occasions and gets on well with the brethren. He petitions to join, but during the investigation it is found out that as a teenager he had a conviction for an insurance fraud, but has since been an upstanding citizen, is settled in a good job and has a family. Do you see the man he has become or the person he was many years ago?


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## robert sheehan (Mar 7, 2020)

The Thumb Puppy’s response is one I hoped to see along with the others. Thank you.
I want to respond but have to think about it a bit.
The heart of the question, which I guess I could have been better at asking, was how is a Mason from a regular lodge of district jurisdiction ABC with a rule that a candidate must meet requirement’W’ receive a Mason from jurisdiction XYZ who does not meet the requirement for ABC but does for XYZ.
And Bloke made a good point... perhaps I should table some of the questions I might have until I have gone through my 2nd and 3rd degree. 
Perhaps waiting my questions wouldn’t be necessary or I would have a better understanding of what I am asking.


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## Bloke (Mar 7, 2020)

robert sheehan said:


> The Thumb Puppy’s response is one I hoped to see along with the others. Thank you.
> I want to respond but have to think about it a bit.
> The heart of the question, which I guess I could have been better at asking, was how is a Mason from a regular lodge of district jurisdiction ABC with a rule that a candidate must meet requirement’W’ receive a Mason from jurisdiction XYZ who does not meet the requirement for ABC but does for XYZ.
> And Bloke made a good point... perhaps I should table some of the questions I might have until I have gone through my 2nd and 3rd degree.
> Perhaps waiting my questions wouldn’t be necessary or I would have a better understanding of what I am asking.


A very oversimplified response - which will basically hold true;
Once a man becomes a Freemason in another regular Grand Lodge who my Grand Lodge is in _Amity _with, as long as he is in Good Standing in his home Jurisdiction and can prove it, we will receive him into our Lodges. Case closed. How he got to become a Freemason- is the affair of his Grand Lodge.. if we do not like their Rules or Practices around that or other things, we will not be in Amity with them. Each Grand Lodge is a Sovereign Entity.. but if they want to seek Amity (let's call it have formal Masonic Diplomatic Ties) with us, then they need to meet our standards. Just as, if we want to seek Amity with them, we need to meet theirs.


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## robert sheehan (Mar 8, 2020)

Thank you Bloke. And thank you all so much for the responses. 
I had the opportunity to spend some time with a group of District and Grand officers. One thing that opened my eyes if the synergy of these Brethren. I feel like I had an opportunity to experience what we, as Masons, become to each other and what Brotherhood is like in Masonry. I can’t explain it but it was an excellent experience.
That, alone, answered so much of my question. 
I also had questions directly answered that really put my question into a different perspective.
And Blokes answer is really the simple gist of what I came to understand.


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## Bloke (Mar 10, 2020)

robert sheehan said:


> Thank you Bloke. And thank you all so much for the responses.
> I had the opportunity to spend some time with a group of District and Grand officers. One thing that opened my eyes if the synergy of these Brethren. I feel like I had an opportunity to experience what we, as Masons, become to each other and what Brotherhood is like in Masonry. I can’t explain it but it was an excellent experience.
> That, alone, answered so much of my question.
> I also had questions directly answered that really put my question into a different perspective.
> And Blokes answer is really the simple gist of what I came to understand.


Please to assist


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## Brother H (Mar 10, 2020)

Brother Robert,
Thank you for your question/lecture, calling it lecture as it is really a pleasure reading it, as well as reading the answers of the other Brethren.
Just a quick note, Once you are a Master Mason, your obligation will give you an answer for some major points mentioned above.
In parallel, the 25 Landmarks can give another insight.
Thank you for initiating the discussion!
Fraternally,


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