# Itâ€™s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians



## Michael Neumann

Here is a wonderful and short article about the state of our country - 

http://www.westernjournalism.com/judge-says-its-ok-for-muslim-violence-against-christians/#!

I remember going through the Commandery and there might have been something in there about this...

"The deputies not only refused to protect them, they threatened to arrest them for disorderly conduct if they continued talking about Jesus and the Bible in the presence of the Muslims. Such talk was deemed to be offensive to the Muslims who felt justified in responding with violence."


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## widows son

*It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*

Not ok for any one to be violent. Especially when it comes to beliefs.


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## Benjamin Baxter

I am thankful I live in Texas. Christmas trees in school and hopefully we can call them that. 
Its up to the house,  senate,  and good ol rick. 
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## filmgeekben

A poorly cited and clearly biased article. I don't even know, based on this article, if it occurred this year or in the past.

I would not put too much stock in this article which seeks to sow discord between people of faith. The article even calls Muslims "the lost". Imagine an article describing an opposite event talking about Christians as infidels. This is not good journalism or healthy discourse. 


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## Vikti

I use to work with a Muslim and one of his best traits was that he (and his family, I met them too) were so tolerant of others, unless some fool started pushing his buttons about pork and alcohol.  During one of our many Q&A sessions that we had at work over our faiths, one thing he told me that Jesus is mentioned by name more times in the Koran than in the bible.  He told me that in the Muslim faith that they don't consider Jesus the Messiah but a great teacher that one should listen to but Mohammad is the one a Muslim should follow.  It's so sad that a person like my former coworker as well as the majority of peace loving Muslims should be placed into the same group as the intolerant zealots have created.

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## dew_time

Bro. Bennylee said:


> I am thankful I live in Texas. Christmas trees in school and hopefully we can call them that.
> Its up to the house,  senate,  and good ol rick.
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Its pretty sad that saying merry christmas isn't politically correct anymore. Especially since christmas has nothing to do with politics...
Btw, I think they call them holiday trees nowadays

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## Bill Lins

Vikti said:


> It's so sad that a person like my former coworker as well as the majority of peace loving Muslims should be placed into the same group as the intolerant zealots have created.



They are the solution to their own problem. If they would band together against the radicals of their faith, they could solve the problem. As long as they remain silent and sit on their hands, things will persist as they do now.


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## widows son

*It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*

"They are the solution to their own problem. If they would band together against the radicals of their faith, they could solve the problem. As long as they remain silent and sit on their hands, things will persist as they do now."

•   I think the same can go for Christians as well. Fundamentalist hate groups have been running a mock for decades in North America, claiming to be Christian, with full tax exempt status.


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## Michael Neumann

I have many many friends that follow Islam, I was not posting against the religion... I was posting against the stupidity of the judgment. Using that same though pattern I would be justified in beating the daylights out of the Westboro (site - godhatesfags.com) Baptist Church followers for protesting our fallen soldiers.

Condoning violence because of religious or political beliefs flies in the face of everything our country was founded upon.


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## Aeelorty

From the videos I saw about this event, it looked mostly like kids, teens and young adults were the ones who were getting the most riled up about the insults and taunts. It just so happens that this age group is the one most impulsive and likely to get into trouble. If there was a group I was trying to get to act out it would be kids and teens, Which is likely who first started throwing things.


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## jvarnell

If you have ever read the Quran and hadith (I have) you will see where this comes from in Islam.  I as a Christian believe conversions to a faith is with in and personal and showing others about our faith but being kind and giving is the way to do it.  Giving water, a kind word and a smile.  If someone doesn't want to hear it or doesn't want except doesn't have to acknowledge I am there.  The Quran tells Muslams get in your face and force you to convert this is just it.  I am sorry that I said that to those it affinds but that is what I have read in the Quran and Hadith.  As a Mason we should be secure in our own faith and not force anyone to believe the way we do or humiliate them for offering a glims into our faith.


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## Aeelorty

> If you have ever read the Quran and hadith (I have) you will see where this comes from in Islam. I as a Christian believe conversions to a faith is with in and personal and showing others about our faith but being kind and giving is the way to do it. Giving water, a kind word and a smile. If someone doesn't want to hear it or doesn't want except doesn't have to acknowledge I am there. The Quran tells Muslams get in your face and force you to convert this is just it. I am sorry that I said that to those it affinds but that is what I have read in the Quran and Hadith. As a Mason we should be secure in our own faith and not force anyone to believe the way we do or humiliate them for offering a glims into our faith.



Some interpret Islam that way but not one of the multitude of Muslims I know have tried to convert me in any way. On the other hand I get asked at work periodically if I go to church/ I should go to their church. One must realize that any religion and any religious book can be interpreted in many ways. To say all Muslims believe in or support violent conversion is wrong. There are roughly one billion Muslims in the world and their sects and beliefs are just as diverse as Christians. On that point, Buddhism is diverse also. 



> The Quran tells Muslams get in your face and force you to convert this is just it.


The Bible says the same thing and we have plenty of Evangelicals in America. 

Masonry teaches tolerance to keep harmony. When we begin categorizing and generalizing about religions division and conflict is inevitable. A man cannot dictate the beliefs of another, especially on their religious beliefs.


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## jvarnell

Aeelorty said:


> The Bible says the same thing and we have plenty of Evangelicals in America.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I have found nothing in the bible that comes out and says this but I have in the Quran.  In the Hadith is talks about in 635AD where 1/3 of Mohammad's army were beheaded because they refused to call Mohammad a Profit as an example.  I don't see that in the New teasement.


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## jvarnell

Remember Chirstian's are called "_People of the Book_" in Islam when you read both books in there intiarity.


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## Lyric'sMaster

i think both have a mistake here... quran must be understand not read, the reading is makin a people radicals, in bible same, my mother is christian and my father is muslim i have jurning much in the mysteries of understanding of religions so, ill say shortly that quran says ask people to become muslims normaly any religion says that but there is smthin else that says like time is goin you must change, if in 600'th were driving Camils we must not do same, we can drive ferrari also... u can take a exeple from Arabia, all bigest American buisnesmans have their corporations and towers in Dubai, u can see the land that islam was born is free that is 'coz Arabians have understanded the mean. 
People u must one thing understand that holy books are the mesage to tell us that is just one god we must belive... Jesus in quran is writed and truthly i can say he were must clean, he was blassed with the spirit of gavril (gebrail), he is must respected prophet of quran, thos people who do those things makin truble to others thos people are out from their religion, out from their own iman(soul) they are not respected by muslims coz they are not muslims at all, one real muslim must always see his way, is forbident to see left and right what hapening and to do trubles.
 Thanks for understanding do not take this reply such personal, i like a muslim want to give my meaning.
Have a greate time...


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## LittleHunter

I find some beauty and truth in all religions. Personally, I cannot accept any one book as God's word. Books are written by men. Even when we are divinely inspired we can only comprehend a part of the Infinite Light. To me, all scriptures are the records of men striving to understand our Creator... Striving to out into words that which transcends language. Therefore, IMO, all scripture is imperfect. It is useful, instructive and inspired... But it is Light filtered through the minds and languages or mortal men. There comes a time when we must put our books down and gaze upon the Light of our Creator as it lives and breathes all around us and within


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## Lyric'sMaster

LittleHunter said:


> I find some beauty and truth in all religions. Personally, I cannot accept any one book as God's word. Books are written by men. Even when we are divinely inspired we can only comprehend a part of the Infinite Light. To me, all scriptures are the records of men striving to understand our Creator... Striving to out into words that which transcends language. Therefore, IMO, all scripture is imperfect. It is useful, instructive and inspired... But it is Light filtered through the minds and languages or mortal men. There comes a time when we must put our books down and gaze upon the Light of our Creator as it lives and breathes all around us and within...



How can we belive in one creator, or how can i say in our great architect of universum called GOD when we will have no book's? 
 That is like you do a ritual but you know no where to start and how to finish! Tell me do i am wrong?  
 Knowlage comes from smware, for book's there exist no end my dear friend...
 We must belive in fact's!


Don'Shakespeare Art's


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## Aeelorty

Well Christianity also uses the Old Testament Deuteronomy 13 v 5-10 calls for killing those who would lead a person away from G-d. I do not mean to be pugnacious I just want to drive home the importance of understanding that Islam is diverse in its beliefs. A Muslim is not necessarily a fundamentalist in the same way that a christian is not. I rail against the dangers of ingroup outgroup biases, judge each man by his plum line. 

The violence that happened at Arab Festival is more easily and accurately explained by psychological principles rather than stemming from religious beliefs. Youths are more impulsive and inclined towards violence. This is true in every culture. Combine the bellicose nature of youths with the dangers of mob mentalities with just a touch of demeaning comments and violence is often likely to ensue. There is a prevalent belief in America that Muslims are often enemies, this leads to a sense of being ostracized for many which leads to feelings of resentment and anger, which can be incited in events like Arab Fest. Say one person throws an cup it does not take much for things to escalate. 

To me this seems like a better explanation than saying Islam condones violence thus the incident is a natural outcrop of that.


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## LittleHunter

I agree with you. I'm just sharing my opinion that, or me, I have found valuable guidance in the scriptures of many faiths. I have never found one to be perfect and I am happy with that. I feel that each tradition has a precious piece of the great puzzle. For that reason it is great to share and work together


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## Aeelorty

Agreed brother


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## Bill Lins

*Re: It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*



widows son said:


> "They are the solution to their own problem. If they would band together against the radicals of their faith, they could solve the problem. As long as they remain silent and sit on their hands, things will persist as they do now."
> 
> â€¢   I think the same can go for Christians as well. Fundamentalist hate groups have been running a mock for decades in North America, claiming to be Christian, with full tax exempt status.



Bro. Michael beat me to the punch- I was just about to mention Westboro. Fortunately, we have Patriot Guard members to keep them in check. The primary difference in your comparison is that the jihadis are much more likely to commit violence. The moderates must let them know, by force if necessary, that their behavior is unacceptable.


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## Lyric'sMaster

I dont know peopple do this discutions are accepted at all in one FM web, do u have any batter theme or...
 All religions have good and bad side, that is normal and natural, religion makes not trubles, people are makin truble... Why in My Country Macedonia, Europe - or Albania, Europe or all over the europe Religions are tolerant... there is understanding bro.
 Must be acceptible that all religions are for goodnes, but we like a humans we are makin trubles eachother... we not respect eachother... Guns no killing people... peopple kill peopple! U must not blame any religion, coz every one belive in smthin so if u blame any religion u dissrespect youre!


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## Lyric'sMaster

.


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## widows son

*It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*

"Bro. Michael beat me to the punch- I was just about to mention Westboro. Fortunately, we have Patriot Guard members to keep them in check. The primary difference in your comparison is that the jihadis are much more likely to commit violence. The moderates must let them know, by force if necessary, that their behavior is unacceptable."

• I agree, I haven't really seen much physical violence come from Christian fundamentalist groups, but they still are spreading hate, verbally, in the name of God or Christ. It's seems in all big three religions there's is at least one hate group. In Israel, there is a group of traditionalists who want to see the mosques demolished and a new temple built on the Mount. I think we all know the repercussions if that were to happen. I personally think that any radical fundamentalist group that spreads hate, commits violent acts: physical or verbal, protests things that are beyond the grasp of human control (sexual orientation) and call people every name in the book who don't follow them, should not be considered a religion/sect, and lose status as such.
That's me though. 

Religious history is peppered with violence, so it should be no shock that it is still happening all over the world. The difference is, as a whole we know this but yet idly sit by and and do nothing. Car bombs will still blow up in the Mid East, fundamentalists in North America will still protest funerals, hate people who are different, and condemn anyone who tries to interpret their life outside of the "book"and certain Israelis will push for the destruction of the mosques. Not to mention all the other horrible things happening to people of other faiths (prevented from being a mason in Florida if you believe in certain pagan monotheistic religions) 

How can we demand peace at home and abroad when we do nothing about it? I am guilty for being idle, but how can we stop this non sense without offending those who are in these groups? Not all of the followers of these groups do these bad things, which is where I'm having trouble for a solution.


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## dfreybur

*Re: It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*



widows son said:


> It's seems in all big three religions there's is at least one hate group.



It's not just Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hindu (using big to mean population of members and thus the big four) that are subject to parasitic infestation by fundies.  All religions large and small are subject to it.  A sad reflection on human nature and something for the moderates among members of all religions to stand against.  Find some faith with a couple thousand members and they are likely to have a couple fundies leaching on their ways.

An important feature of Masonry is that we see good men and have no idea what religious membership they have just that they have one.  We learn by experience that increased devotion does *not* come paired with a fundie outlook.  We learn that increased devotion tends to come with better compassion for those who disagree.


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## jvarnell

The whole problem with all this is definitions of words and who controls them.  The "people of the Book" are Christian only in the Quran and the ideals are the new testament word of peace and the knowledge of Christ teachings.  Not the old testament which is history used to show how our walk with God changed.  If you look at the Westboro Batpist church they use only the old testament for there message so they do not have the ideals of Christians but Christians are being sadled with them just because they call them self's Christians.  If you can show me anyplace in the new testament where it says you must force someone to convert I will concede.  And don't point to any of the Dogma of the deferent denominations of Christianity that was written by men.  Fundamentalism is not bad if the ideals is good.  But forcing someone to convert is found many places in Quran and Hadith. Think please think before you say anything about what I just said.  As Freemasons we are a fraternity of men that should be able to with a token trust each other to have our back no mater what religion we are or where in the world we are.  

When a question like this comes up on a Freemason message board it makes me wonder because of my knowledge what I have read in the Quran and Hadith.  It is like the Military in the heat of things you do not want your mind wondering anything just doing what is right.

That is what makes Freemasonry so appealing is no mater what religion we are, we are brothers and got each others back.


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## Michael Neumann

:49oes anyone ever think "dang, why did I start that thread?" LOL


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## widows son

*It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*

"The whole problem with all this is definitions of words and who controls them"

• Nobody controls words or definitions. Words and their definitions are the result intermingling of cultures and have been passed down through time. For example the word Humus is the definition for a chick pea in Arabic, but Humus in North America is the definition of a dip which uses chick peas. 

"If you can show me anyplace in the new testament where it says you must force someone to convert I will concede."

• Did Christ not say the only way to the Father is through him?

"  And don't point to any of the Dogma of the deferent denominations of Christianity that was written by men."

• The bible is a collection of stories over many generations in the past, written by men. I personally believe in the symbolic interpretation of the bible. JMO for this one. 

"Fundamentalism is not bad if the ideals is good. "

• I haven't seen any good things come from fundamentalism.  It fosters tunnel vision and prevents new ideas from emerging, which most of the time are new things that can help the advancement of humanity. 

" As Freemasons we are a fraternity of men that should be able to with a token trust each other to have our back no mater what religion we are or where in the world we are. "

• This I 100% agree with you on. 

" Does anyone ever think "dang, why did I start that thread?" LOL"

• Never. Although as masons we are prevented from the discussion of religious or political matters in a Tiled Lodge, this forum however is not a Tiled Lodge, and just because we are masons doesn't mean we don't have an opinion in matters religious or political.  I really don't think anything on here that has been said is offensive. If these matters aren't discussed, how can there ever be progress?


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## jvarnell

*Re: It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*



widows son said:


> "The whole problem with all this is definitions of words and who controls them"
> 
> • Nobody controls words or definitions. Words and their definitions are the result intermingling of cultures and have been passed down through time. For example the word Humus is the definition for a chick pea in Arabic, but Humus in North America is the definition of a dip which uses chick peas.



Yes they are controlled by the loudest group saying them. Look at the word conservative It only means to use tradition while making decisions but young people think it mean that some one is going to lord over them. 



widows son said:


> "If you can show me anyplace in the new testament where it says you must force someone to convert I will concede."
> 
> • Did Christ not say the only way to the Father is through him?



That is how it was translated in the king James Bible.  If you read it in the Greek and the part before and after you will get the feel Christ was saying that if you don't believe in him how can you believe in God.  On force involved it is faith and belief.




widows son said:


> "And don't point to any of the Dogma of the deferent denominations of Christianity that was written by men."
> 
> • The bible is a collection of stories over many generations in the past, written by men. I personally believe in the symbolic interpretation of the bible. JMO for this one.



It was written with guidance from God but dogma is man's own interpretation of those writings.



widows son said:


> "Fundamentalism is not bad if the ideals is good. "
> 
> • I haven't seen any good things come from fundamentalism. It fosters tunnel vision and prevents new ideas from emerging, which most of the time are new things that can help the advancement of humanity.



fundamentalism is a word that is controlled by the media as bad but all it really means is someone adheres to the original word with out deviation.  If it says love one another it means that.  I see no where in the new testament that says kill anyone but it says spread the word.  It doesn't prevent the advancement of anything it just says do these thing.  How many don't do these things are in the new testament?  even in the 10 commandments most of them are do and not don't do.  Also the don't do's of the 10 commandments are the same things as in the obligation of a Mason just worded different. 



widows son said:


> " As Freemasons we are a fraternity of men that should be able to with a token trust each other to have our back no mater what religion we are or where in the world we are. "
> 
> • This I 100% agree with you on.
> 
> " Does anyone ever think "dang, why did I start that thread?" LOL"
> 
> • Never. Although as masons we are prevented from the discussion of religious or political matters in a Tiled Lodge, this forum however is not a Tiled Lodge, and just because we are masons doesn't mean we don't have an opinion in matters religious or political. I really don't think anything on here that has been said is offensive. If these matters aren't discussed, how can there ever be progress?


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## athelstane839

Violence is ungod like.


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## LittleHunter

I'm tired of people fighting over whose religion is right, whose scripture is divine and whose interpretation is correct. All religions admonish us to be kind to one another. If God didn't like diversity there would not be so many religions. I respect Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed and White Buffalo Calf Woman and I believe they all originals intended for us to love one another. We must stop allowing religions to be manipulated politically as a motivation for war. It's time for us To grow up.


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## Lyric'sMaster

LittleHunter said:


> I'm tired of people fighting over whose religion is right, whose scripture is divine and whose interpretation is correct. All religions admonish us to be kind to one another. If God didn't like diversity there would not be so many religions. I respect Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed and White Buffalo Calf Woman and I believe they all originals intended for us to love one another. We must stop allowing religions to be manipulated politically as a motivation for war. It's time for us To grow up...





I agree with u bro... Correctly...


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## paul782

Never discuss religion and politics ;-)


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## jvarnell

LittleHunter said:


> We must stop allowing religions to be manipulated politically as a motivation for war. It's time for us To grow up.



Can you say Sharia?  Some systems of law are based on religions and can not happen with out the other.  That is why we here in the US have a laws against established state religions.  Now this is not a law that says that religious displays can not be in public places just that  the government can't say this is the only religion the government recognizes. 

But I also think that religions doesn't manipulate politics but politicians use religion to get votes.  Also we use each of our ideals to manipulate politics and our "internal self" is religious in some way or we would not believe in a SA.  It is that belief that has made all religion in the way we understand things.


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## jvarnell

paul782 said:


> Never discuss religion and politics ;-)



I believe that is only in the lodge and men that want to understand each other should discuss everything.  If I don't hear what someone basses their opinion on I can't understand why the believe and act the way they do. If I listen too and research what they say I can better understand what they think.


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## BryanMaloney

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> They are the solution to their own problem. If they would band together against the radicals of their faith, they could solve the problem. As long as they remain silent and sit on their hands, things will persist as they do now.



I have heard the exact same thing directed against me when some leftist decides to blame me for the excesses of Westboro Baptist or similar groups. Since I didn't personally go down and eliminate Christian extremists, I am to be held personally responsible for Christian extremism.


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## Bill Lins

BryanMaloney said:


> I have heard the exact same thing directed against me when some leftist decides to blame me for the excesses of Westboro Baptist or similar groups. Since I didn't personally go down and eliminate Christian extremists, I am to be held personally responsible for Christian extremism.



We *have* banded together against groups like Westboro- you'll have a hard time finding leftists among the Patriot Guard, among others. Mebbe you should point that out to your liberal friends.


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## Aeelorty

> We *have banded together against groups like Westboro- you'll have a hard time finding leftists among the Patriot Guard, among others. Mebbe you should point that out to your liberal friends.*





> I have heard the exact same thing directed against me when some leftist decides to blame me for the excesses of Westboro Baptist or similar groups. Since I didn't personally go down and eliminate Christian extremists, I am to be held personally responsible for Christian extremism.



Excuse me for using a you two as an example. Within these two comments are the seeds that foster extremism, violence and conflict of all sorts. By using the left as an antagonistic group you are indulging in the biases that radicals all over the world exploit. The natural way we think negatively about people outside of our in-groups easily leads use to scapegoat them. This happens all over the world and history is replete with examples of the scapegoating and the degradation of out-groups. Now one of the effects of in group out group heuristics is that we tend to believe that other groups are very homogeneous, have negative attributes but accept that our group is heterogeneous and has positive attributes. Muslim culture is just as diverse as Christian Culture. I saw a very interesting graph that depicted the rate of violence across the world with lines plotted for each religion. Islam in the past has had a much lower rate of violence compared to other religions however in the very recent pass violence has declined dramatically to amazingly low levels. The violence in Islamic countries has had a much smaller and gradual decline. There are various reasons for this. My main point is that Islam is not inherently more violent than other religions but that it has not benefited as much from the improvements of modern life. There are better explanations of violence perpetrated by Muslims than their religion. I think that it is unproductive to blame Islam for violence rather than identifing the social and psychological issues at play.


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## Bill Lins

Aeelorty said:


> My main point is that Islam is not inherently more violent than other religions but that it has not benefited as much from the improvements of modern life. There are better explanations of violence perpetrated by Muslims than their religion. I think that it is unproductive to blame Islam for violence rather than identifying the social and psychological issues at play.



I never blamed the Islamic religion itself for the violence caused by its radical adherents. I _did_ say that the more moderate members of that faith have to take action against the radicals to avoid being tarred by the same brush.


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## lharoldo

No, I think it's not ok. Here in Brazil we don't see this kind of things hapenning very often. I think it's because my country doesn't receive many arab immigrants as the US does. For obvious reasons, the US receive many immigrants, some good, some bad, but culturally different people, nevertheless, south americans included. The Muslim world, however worthy of respect, is different from us western christian civilizations. They think and they act differently because of their religious background, which formed their civilization. As a freemason, although we are all taught to be tolerant, there shall be rules and laws for any kind of religious violence, specially in a well developed country like yours. You must fight injustice and prejudice, but you have also to be prepared to understand that outside freemasonry many won't understand those differences and accept them. To begin building a better future with Muslims, first you have to realize what you have in common. There will be no progress without discovering this first cornerstone. For awhile, I think we'll see many sad episodes like this one, not only in America, but in the world.


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## BryanMaloney

Aeelorty said:


> Excuse me for using a you two as an example. Within these two comments are the seeds that foster extremism, violence and conflict of all sorts. By using the left as an antagonistic group


 
The individuals in my particular case were leftists. They were also atheists. Should I have just lied and said they were Republican Baptists who blamed me for Westboro?


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## Aeelorty

No need to lie, but my point was about the psychology of groups that is so often exploited in political beliefs. The tone of your post was one of negativity, as though the comment was worse because they people saying it were those terrible lefties, a term which carries the utmost negative and condescending connotations among conservatives. Attaching negative connotations to large groups of people is only possible by our tendencies to believe in the homogeneous nature of out groups. Attaching negative connotations to groups works great in politics, it creates a common enemy to be fought, solidifies the in-group by setting its clear boundaries and many other ways. But this thread isn't about politics. My point is that Islam is diverse. And i this diverse grouping we call islam there is plenty of conflict and people tyring to counteract radicals. Which brings up another point, humans pay more attention to things which may be a threat, which makes perfect sense. Not only do we pay more attention to threats but they are more easily brought to mind than more positive things, being easily brought to mind we tend to think that what ever is more common that it might actually be.


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## Aeelorty

But maybe I let my tendency to explain things through psychology run wild. Whats the opinion on my explanation on the violence at this event?


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## mikecav

I saw a video that goes with the article.  The Muslims at the rally were on video assaulting the Christians there and the police did nothing.  I guess they did something on the outside of the sherries jurisdiction and were arrested by the regular police.  It's bs...


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## mikecav

Sheriffs*


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## Frater Cliff Porter

I have travled to many Muslim countries, met with many men who were Muslim and embraced Masonic Brethren who embraced Islam.  I have also fought in a war etc.  

I am no bleeding heart.  When it comes to religion, none has been more violent than my own faith, that of Christian.  The Muslim faith has its radicals and it is sad...I think I will follow the example of a wooly haired guy with skin of bronze...love your enemy, turn the cheek, and pray.


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## Blake Bowden

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> They are the solution to their own problem. If they would band together against the radicals of their faith, they could solve the problem. As long as they remain silent and sit on their hands, things will persist as they do now.



Bingo

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## Lyric'sMaster

Admin... Please can you delete this theme... Is not such a masonic theme... There have no interests exept makin truble and patriotisem! ...


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## Lyric'sMaster

Please peopple.we here are to share eachother our knowlege, ideas and good cind themes not to blame eachother... Everyone have his faith, i am Muslim, Albanian in war helped me Israel to win my Freedom i respect jews, i live in Christian country of Macedonia and i work in Catholic country of Switzerland (SWISS), there are more violences in 90' Serbia violented Bosnian muslims more than 80.000 killed in 98' Violence in kosovo 15.000 muslims killed Albanians... thanks by nato, U.S.A and Israel we won the freedom must once understand Every faith is good, but if u are Catholic, Christian, Hindu, Buddha, Muslim or what else that no means you are good man, if u have heart and understanding, tolerance than you are good man... So please save those themes for other places in FM is not place to discusse them, if you have power to change things do it, if you not than save empty words...


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## Michael Neumann

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> ..love your enemy, turn the cheek, and pray.


 all that happens here is that you end up with bruised knees and two red cheeks. Each religion has its merits but Islam is starting to become an issue because the peaceful many are being ruled by the violent few. As I have explained to my many Bosnian and Kosovo friends, the few fanatics have become the face of Islam through their lack of action.

look it up, Muslim kids can now pray in D.C. Area schools while Christians are fired for reciting a prayer during a tornado.

So, you all may turn the other cheek but I took an obligation when I went through the commandery and I am observing it through emailing congressmen, senators, and the ACLU (they hate any type of prayer)


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## Michael Neumann

Lyric'sMaster said:


> ....


 rather than asking for us to ignore the problem please assist in fixing it. Help find a way to drive out the fanatics so others can see the peaceful religion you see. Fanatics will not listen to a Christian but they might listen to an intelligent brother of the same faith, lyrics master through music you best can gather the peaceful followers of Islam and drive out the trouble makers.


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## Spawny

It is not the practice for Islamic cultures to commit acts of violence, it is the few nations and radical groups who does these things in the name of Islam. To say that all Muslims are violent is like saying all Catholics are child molesters, just simply not true. Evil and cowards always disguise themselves among the flock otherwise they will fail stand alone.


Freemason Connect Mobile


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## widows son

*It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*

"all that happens here is that you end up with bruised knees and two red cheeks. Each religion has its merits but Islam is starting to become an issue because the peaceful many are being ruled by the violent few. As I have explained to my many Bosnian and Kosovo friends, the few fanatics have become the face of Islam through their lack of action.

look it up, Muslim kids can now pray in D.C. Area schools while Christians are fired for reciting a prayer during a tornado.

So, you all may turn the other cheek but I took an obligation when I went through the commandery and I am observing it through emailing congressmen, senators, and the ACLU (they hate any type of prayer)"

• My brother I agree with you on this, but I also feel that the same can be said about Christians as well. There aren't too many violent Christian groups out there but there are numerous hate groups who claim to be Christian, that neither practice nor preach anything that Christ would have taught.  These groups are lead usually by some fanatical leader who has some twisted idea of the way the world should be. People like Pat Robertson or even good ol' Skip are no different than any fanatical Islamic leader. 

The media doesn't help this situation either because it only shows the crazy, fanatical aspects of these certain Christian sects. The same goes with Islam. I whole heartedly have no faith in any media outlet to provide an unbiased account on anything. A shame and sham.

I believe our world is lacking proper spirituality. People are losing faith in every religion because of childish and despicable acts that religions and its leaders are making, and other ideologies are filling the void. I believe there is a delicate balance between the two.


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## Bill Lins

*Re: It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*



widows son said:


> People like Pat Robertson or even good ol' Skip are no different than any fanatical Islamic leader



Sure they are. When did either of them commit or foment physical violence?


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## Aeelorty

.


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## Michael Neumann

*Re: It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*



widows son said:


> There aren't too many violent Christian groups out there but there are numerous hate groups who claim to be Christian, that neither practice nor preach anything that Christ would have taught.  These groups are lead usually by some fanatical leader who has some twisted idea of the way the world should be. People like Pat Robertson or even good ol' Skip are no different than any fanatical Islamic leader.
> 
> The media doesn't help this situation either because it only shows the crazy, fanatical aspects of these certain Christian sects. The same goes with Islam. I whole heartedly have no faith in any media outlet to provide an unbiased account on anything. A shame and sham.
> 
> I believe our world is lacking proper spirituality. People are losing faith in every religion because of childish and despicable acts that religions and its leaders are making, and other ideologies are filling the void. I believe there is a delicate balance between the two.



When I see Muslims attacking Christians and Islam in our schools I get angry, just as I would if Christians were attacking Muslims and Catholicism was in our schools. It is not anger toward the religion it is anger towards the weak cowards, sitting on their hands hoping the problem will go away if further concessions are made.

What can one man do? Hmmm let me see, this one man - me - has started a FB page, called lodges, set up over 20 different petition forms, and paid for lots and lots of advertising on FB for the cause of visitation. I have targeted the UGLE in advertisements, I have targeted lodges in the Philippines, I have targeted lodges all over the world.... this one little old man.

What can one man do? That is a silly question, ask Brother Blake about this website connected FB page that brings together +10,000 masons (granted he now has help but he was/is the 'master mind')

On to another point - The gun does not kill people, people kill people. YES, you are correct. The religion does not create radicals, people create radicals, Yes, you are correct. In most countries good gun owners keep the bad gun owners at bay and in most religions the good religious followers keep radicals from running amuck...  they do not wish to be judged by the radical few so the peaceful many must overcome them. This is not currently happening in Islam.

One can solve nothing by sitting on ones hands.

The difference between fanatical Christians and fanatical followers of Islam are that the Christian masses not only cast aside the violent ones but they also squelch their flames through lawsuits or military action. When Serbian Christians were attacking the area Muslims en masse it was in-fact level headed and mainly American Christians who fought them back and imposed sanctions. But when there is a fanatical sect of Islam causing problems and being violent most Muslims ask us Christians to please look the other way... turn the other cheek. I quite frankly have had enough looking the other way while the Muslim brotherhood invades our government, schools, and openly attacks those who will not convert.
_
"Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest aspiration."_
-- Motto of the Muslim Brotherhood

I 100% support separation of church and state and our Bill of Rights this is the only thing that will protect us from ourselves. Action must be swift and strong, we must return to the principles that made us a world power, we must adhere to the Declaration, Constitution, and Bill of Rights as they were written.

Are you having an issue 'interpreting' the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Here, the authors explained it for you, no need to add your opinion to their document. http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/


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## Aeelorty

Generalizations are the destruction of understanding.... 

I can not think of any other way of saying this point more clearly. Do not be fooled by biases of your mind be it political beliefs, lack of information, or fear. Honestly this thread has to be a joke. Really some one is afraid of the muslim brotherhood invading schools and the us government? There is no way that is not a joke. Brother if you really believe that you should attack that idea with the intent to destroy it and see if it will stand absolutely against the power of your intellect. Brother again you are the one at fault for judging the many based upon the few. You would not allow the same to be done to masonry, your religion, political ideology or family would you? And most muslims dont ask anyone to look the other why what they ask is for you to understand that what they practice is not the islam they believe in. In many countries the violence you see is not caused by religious beliefs; it is the religious beliefs that are being twisted to fit the wants of the perpetrators. The human mind is an amazing justification machine. There are two things that are most often used to justify acts of evil, religion and politics. I implore you not to be the type of person who will let their passions overflow, first seek to understand at the most fundamental level of what is happening. Moderate muslims are not trying to protect radical islamist but are busy trying to apologize to the world and distance themselves for those acts. Just as many other peoples have done before when they are unjustly and cruelly lumped together with people they themselves deplore. In many places the local politics and concerns have nothing to do with religion they are the same issues we have in america. For instance in the city of Karachi Pakistan illegal immigration and legal immigration from Afghanistan is the hot button issue that people fight to the death over.


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## Michael Neumann

Aeelorty said:


> Moderate muslims are not trying to protect radical islamist but are busy trying to apologize to the world and distance themselves for those acts. Just as many other peoples have done before when they are unjustly and cruelly lumped together with people they themselves deplore.



Just how many times in this thread have I stated that I am in no way attacking the belief of Islam and in no way am I lumping the peaceful with the radical? You still fail to hear me so I would waste my time stating it yet again. I AM however actively attacking the radicals who seek to impose Islam on those who would otherwise not have it. I AM actively seeking protection from any form of religion being forced upon a peaceful population. While you sit on your hands and try to justify the radical actions of the few while pretending nothing will ever come of it (see this) I am doing as I said I would do those years ago and protecting the foundation of my country. 

My country welcomes those of all religions, cultures, and creeds "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..." but they must assimilate to OUR culture. They cannot run here seeking exile and then attempt to impose Sharia Law (see here)

So, you sit timidly by brother while I ensure your future generations way of life. 

*"A great deal of talent is lost to the world for want of a little courage. Every day sends to their graves obscure men whose timidity prevented them from making a first effort."
[SIZE=-1]-Sydney Smith[/SIZE]*


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## Lyric'sMaster

i agree with you at all, but i will tell you smthin jihad is not a rule to make terror atack, kill good people or any thing else, jihad is rule that gived us Jesus, when the roman army was killing chilldrens, womans, and takein the israels rights jesus gived that order. to protect themselfs but jihad is only acepted by the god when you fight for youre own freedom in youre country. We right muslims we no call jihad one terrorist coming and killing inesent people in u.s or europe or everyelse, by right muslims who understand quran is forbident to atack other people or religions, yes we can call peopple to become muslims but just in quite way peacful and friendly, is forbiden to call other with violence, you can never find sureor hadth that word what says, atack them, kill them or what else there is writet to love oure enemy like ourselfs, god is greate for people like avgans, pakistans, syrians, and sm sh*t nations other we took bad face in eyes of world, quran is learning us to love people, allah is learning to be peacful, friendly but belive i like a muslim i am pround of my religion i live work everyday i go out with christian catholics jews for caffe, i do much buisneses with jews. To be muslim is not to be violent, is to speake about peace thankful and friendly those who speake atack in schools thos are not muslims, i am able to kill them with my hands! do not take this reply persony i just dont know how to explain this...


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## BryanMaloney

Michael Neumann said:


> Christians are fired for reciting a prayer during a tornado.



That is a flat-out lie: http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/oklahoma.asp

Your case is only weakened when you cite outright, provably false claims to bolster it.

Truth is an obligation for Christians, and St. Paul told us to "test the spirits". Testing the spirits means that you take the time to confirm such claims as you made through reliable sources.


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## BryanMaloney

The problem is not religious. The problem is economic. The Western Allies created this situation starting in 1920. The dissolution of the Ottoman Empire was taken as an opportunity for the UK and France, in particular, to re-assert their colonial practices (de facto if not dejure) in the Levant, North Africa, Central Asia, and other modern "Muslim hot spots". Just look at the history of these countries from 1920 to WWII. They were all dealing with powerful arbitrary and mercantilist colonialist French and British meddling. The French and the British propped up local strongmen. To make matters more tricky the foolish Balfour had released his "Declaration" in order to induce the USA to enter WWI. His tactic failed, but it did mean that the British Mandate for Palestine was saddled with a problematic policy that would make for later trouble.

After WWII pretty much trash-canned overt Franco-British colonialism in the area (the real powers of the world--USA and USSR--didn't want to play that game), they and their successors (mostly the USA) still used the strongman approach to rule these areas by proxy. The British, especially, in the person of Lawrence, had made all kinds of promises regarding "independence" from the Ottomans. They were not interested in keeping these promises. Thus, the local dicatators were intimately associated with Europeans. Political opposition found shelter among the lower non-industrial economic classes, who are almost always more socially conservative than are the urban proletariat, bourgeoisie, or elite. Islam, like many religions, has some measure of social justice in its teachings. It is very easy to construct a form of Islam (or Christianity, Judaism, etc.) that casts the poor as the oppressed faithful and the rich as the servants of Satan. If these servants of Satan happen to be propped up by foreigners who practice a different religion, so much the better.

This is why we see movements like Wahabbi arising in the 1920s. They are religious expressions of economic and political rebellion. Rather than live up to their own propaganda, the USA and UK (France quickly became a nonentity in the region) made matters worse by supporting the dictators against their own people. The USSR responded by pretending to adopt the cause of the dissidents. Simple geopolitics, no real doctrine behind it.

In the present day, these dissident groups now find themselves riding the tiger. They have had decades of being sufficiently repressed to keep resentment alive but insufficiently repressed to be exterminated.  Even if their leaders wanted to, they could not moderate their message. The tiger would turn on them. The best thing the USA can do is cut the ground out from under them.

What does this has to do with blaming non-extremists for the acts of extremists? This is an economic issue. So long as the governments in these countries treat people as they do, so long as oil is sold and the people never see the benefits, so long as rich countries worry about an "obesity epidemic" and the people in these countries worry about starving, absolutely nothing that non-extremists do will change anything. The conditions have nothing to do with who "controls the conversation". The conditions are simply a response to underlying economic and political forces. In the West most people haven't a lick of sense, so they blindly believe that the entire rest of the world segregates and compartmentalizes religion like we do. This practice is actually abnormal. Even in our own history, compartmentalization of religion is unusual.

The non-extremists could talk themselves blue in the face and be murdered by the thousands by extremists. It won't change anything until the conditions that convince young people that they will get a better deal with the extremists no longer exist.


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## jvarnell

Bro. BryanMaloney The problem is not economics. Go look all over the internet on who the USA give foreign aid too.  The list is all the people that don't like the US.  The problem is envy and the need to have an enemy to defeat as a goal.  When someone wants power over others they use politics, economy, and religious deferances to destabilize.  This is why we as Freemasons have to meet on the level.

Everyone can point at someone/something in the past that was done to them or against them in the name of religion.  We have to get past the vengeance of humanity and back to law.  The concept of law is to be made whole not vengeance and resaprosity.  It is our religions that teach morals.  If you look at the new testament of the bible you will see Grace,  If you look at the bhagavad Gita you will also find Grace and many other of the newer writings.  You will see God changing for a vengeance full god to a more benevolent god.  This you do not see in Islam in writing or actions.


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## Michael Hatley

The second highest recipient of US foreign aid is Israel.  1st and 3rd are Afghanistan and Iraq, respectively.  Folks who believe we can effectively occupy a country and then not lend a hand with roads, schools, and so forth as we extract ourselves I'm not sure what to tell them.  It is one of the big reasons why in 2002 when we had a very large national discussion about going in.  

But, anyhow - for me, I've met many Muslim men.  Worked with them.  Broke bread with them.  Most of them have seen their religion the same way most American Christians do, when you get right down to it.  Lots of metaphor, allegory, and general principals that are worthwhile.  Lots of peculiar things (stoning your kids and so forth, plenty of odd things in most major religions if you focus on those things) that aren't of a terrible amount of value.  

And, lots of folks who use religion as a tool to lead desperate, weak minded, illiterate or near illiterate people to do the things they want them to do, pay them money, anoint political leaders and so on and so forth.  Both Christianity and Islam have countless examples of this.

Where the rubber meets the road, in my view, is tolerance.  When a person's religion causes them to become intolerant, it has been bent.  When it causes them to be more charitable, conscientious, tolerant people who are at peace with themselves and their neighbor it is working as intended.  There are loads of good examples of all the major religions doing this.

This is why Freemasonry does not exclude a man because of his religion.  And why a man who has convinced himself that Islam is inherently evil should really consider their views.  It is difficult to practice tolerance when you come from there.

Just my point of view.


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## BryanMaloney

jvarnell said:


> Bro. BryanMaloney The problem is not economics. Go look all over the internet on who the USA give foreign aid too.  The list is all the people that don't like the US.



Really? I didn't realize that Israel hated the USA so much!!!!!  They're the second largest recipient of foreign aid. Wow! I never knew that Israel was an enemy of the USA! AMAZING! My source: American Fact-Finder. Ireland also get foreign aid from the USA. Likewise, the poorer a country is, the less of that aid will get to the people who need it. This is very well documented. Instead, this "aid" is really just payoffs to the strongmen and crime bosses we prop up or wish to prop up. The silly little fairy tale about how we distribute food and are hated for it is just that--a silly little fairy tale. The reality is that the majority of US aid goes to people in the respective countries who already have power. They use it to prop up the power structure and then do whatever they want. In any case, that still says nothing at all about the historical situation between the World Wars, which is the origin of our problems. The USA essentially didn't have any foreign aid to speak of during that period. Of course, you chose to not address that period.



> This is why we as Freemasons have to meet on the level.



So, then, when will you stand by your anti-Islam pot-banging and demand that Muslims be expelled from Freemasonry? If Islam is inherently violent and inherently antithetical to universal fraternity, who could not demand its expulsion?



> Everyone can point at someone/something in the past that was done to them or against them in the name of religion.


 

This has nothing at all to do with the economic and political issues. This is not a religious problem. It is a geopolitical problem that is using religious rhetoric. Sir Francis Drake was not given letters of marque in order to bring about the downfall of the Papacy. He was given them to make money for the English throne. That Spain happened to be Catholic and England Protestant merely made it easier to do.

Again, if Islam is devoid of mercy, devoid of brotherhood, why have you not demanded that all Muslims be expelled from Freemasonry or required to abandon Islam?


----------



## widows son

*It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*

"What can one man do? Hmmm let me see, this one man - me - has started a FB page, called lodges, set up over 20 different petition forms, and paid for lots and lots of advertising on FB for the cause of visitation. I have targeted the UGLE in advertisements, I have targeted lodges in the Philippines, I have targeted lodges all over the world.... this one little old man.

What can one man do? That is a silly question, ask Brother Blake about this website connected FB page that brings together +10,000 masons (granted he now has help but he was/is the 'master mind')"

• My brother, in no way did I mean any disrespect with my comments. To see that you are a "one man wrecking crew" is awesome. I wish i knew more people who do what you do. I've even questioned myself as to what I'm doing about this situation, considering I'm putting on my two cents on this issue. 

I commend you for believing and defending in what your country was built on. 

"Sure they are. When did either of them commit or foment physical violence?"

• Verbal violence can be just a damaging as physical abuse and can lead to physical violence. What if when Westboro was protesting the funerals of the kids from the sandy brook shooting, the families decided the had enough, and a riot broke out. Who would be to blame for the violence? The victims families who have the right to peaceful bury their children, or the idiots who think they're are doing "Gods work?"
http://www.masonicinfo.com/robertson.htm

Also there is this too. 
http://www.masonicinfo.com/bibledef.htm

"The problem is not religious. The problem is economic. The Western Allies created this situation starting in 1920. The dissolution of the Ottoman Empire was taken as an opportunity for the UK and France, in particular, to re-assert their colonial practices (de facto if not dejure) in the Levant, North Africa, Central Asia, and other modern "Muslim hot spots". Just look at the history of these countries from 1920 to WWII. They were all dealing with powerful arbitrary and mercantilist colonialist French and British meddling. The French and the British propped up local strongmen. To make matters more tricky the foolish Balfour had released his "Declaration" in order to induce the USA to enter WWI. His tactic failed, but it did mean that the British Mandate for Palestine was saddled with a problematic policy that would make for later trouble.

After WWII pretty much trash-canned overt Franco-British colonialism in the area (the real powers of the world--USA and USSR--didn't want to play that game), they and their successors (mostly the USA) still used the strongman approach to rule these areas by proxy. The British, especially, in the person of Lawrence, had made all kinds of promises regarding "independence" from the Ottomans. They were not interested in keeping these promises. Thus, the local dicatators were intimately associated with Europeans. Political opposition found shelter among the lower non-industrial economic classes, who are almost always more socially conservative than are the urban proletariat, bourgeoisie, or elite. Islam, like many religions, has some measure of social justice in its teachings. It is very easy to construct a form of Islam (or Christianity, Judaism, etc.) that casts the poor as the oppressed faithful and the rich as the servants of Satan. If these servants of Satan happen to be propped up by foreigners who practice a different religion, so much the better.

This is why we see movements like Wahabbi arising in the 1920s. They are religious expressions of economic and political rebellion. Rather than live up to their own propaganda, the USA and UK (France quickly became a nonentity in the region) made matters worse by supporting the dictators against their own people. The USSR responded by pretending to adopt the cause of the dissidents. Simple geopolitics, no real doctrine behind it.

In the present day, these dissident groups now find themselves riding the tiger. They have had decades of being sufficiently repressed to keep resentment alive but insufficiently repressed to be exterminated. Even if their leaders wanted to, they could not moderate their message. The tiger would turn on them. The best thing the USA can do is cut the ground out from under them.

What does this has to do with blaming non-extremists for the acts of extremists? This is an economic issue. So long as the governments in these countries treat people as they do, so long as oil is sold and the people never see the benefits, so long as rich countries worry about an "obesity epidemic" and the people in these countries worry about starving, absolutely nothing that non-extremists do will change anything. The conditions have nothing to do with who "controls the conversation". The conditions are simply a response to underlying economic and political forces. In the West most people haven't a lick of sense, so they blindly believe that the entire rest of the world segregates and compartmentalizes religion like we do. This practice is actually abnormal. Even in our own history, compartmentalization of religion is unusual.

The non-extremists could talk themselves blue in the face and be murdered by the thousands by extremists. It won't change anything until the conditions that convince young people that they will get a better deal with the extremists no longer exist.

• My brother, I wholly agree.


----------



## jvarnell

BryanMaloney said:


> Really? I didn't realize that Israel hated the USA so much!!!!! They're the second largest recipient of foreign aid. Wow! I never knew that Israel was an enemy of the USA! AMAZING! My source: American Fact-Finder. Ireland also get foreign aid from the USA. Likewise, the poorer a country is, the less of that aid will get to the people who need it. This is very well documented. Instead, this "aid" is really just payoffs to the strongmen and crime bosses we prop up or wish to prop up. The silly little fairy tale about how we distribute food and are hated for it is just that--a silly little fairy tale. The reality is that the majority of US aid goes to people in the respective countries who already have power. They use it to prop up the power structure and then do whatever they want. In any case, that still says nothing at all about the historical situation between the World Wars, which is the origin of our problems. The USA essentially didn't have any foreign aid to speak of during that period. Of course, you chose to not address that period.
> 
> 
> 
> So, then, when will you stand by your anti-Islam pot-banging and demand that Muslims be expelled from Freemasonry? If Islam is inherently violent and inherently antithetical to universal fraternity, who could not demand its expulsion?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has nothing at all to do with the economic and political issues. This is not a religious problem. It is a geopolitical problem that is using religious rhetoric. Sir Francis Drake was not given letters of marque in order to bring about the downfall of the Papacy. He was given them to make money for the English throne. That Spain happened to be Catholic and England Protestant merely made it easier to do.
> 
> Again, if Islam is devoid of mercy, devoid of brotherhood, why have you not demanded that all Muslims be expelled from Freemasonry or required to abandon Islam?



I guess I should have said where most of the money is going and that is not Israel. And no one will ever if everyone looks at my finger instead of what I am pointing at.


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## jvarnell

BryanMaloney said:


> So, then, when will you stand by your anti-Islam pot-banging and demand that Muslims be expelled from Freemasonry? If Islam is inherently violent and inherently antithetical to universal fraternity, who could not demand its expulsion?



I have no anti-Islam bone in my body. I think being a Freemason brings us together, but I am having trouble getting over an Islamic friend I THOUGHT was a friend telling me he was lieing to me the years I were friend's because the Quran told him to so he could convert me. This statement show me that you don't think someone can be torn between two thoughts and wishes for discussion of the subject. All the answers I get back are non-answers "look at my finger pointing at the moon" Confucius. Also just because a Religion tell you to do something you don't have to do it but you do have to ask your self if you are really of that religion.


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## Michael Neumann

BryanMaloney said:


> That is a flat-out lie: http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/oklahoma.asp
> 
> Your case is only weakened when you cite outright, provably false claims to bolster it.
> 
> Truth is an obligation for Christians, and St. Paul told us to "test the spirits". Testing the spirits means that you take the time to confirm such claims as you made through reliable sources.



Thank you for the fact check brother.


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## BryanMaloney

jvarnell said:


> I have no anti-Islam bone in my body. I think being a Freemason brings us together, but I am having trouble getting over an Islamic friend I THOUGHT was a friend telling me he was lieing to me the years I were friend's because the Quran told him to so he could convert me. This statement show me that you don't think someone can be torn between two thoughts and wishes for discussion of the subject. All the answers I get back are non-answers "look at my finger pointing at the moon" Confucius. Also just because a Religion tell you to do something you don't have to do it but you do have to ask your self if you are really of that religion.



I could find Christians in my own town who would claim that the Bible justifies some outright atavistic attitudes regarding race. Heck, the Westboro Baptist Church uses the Bible to justify all manner of un-Christian behavior. Does that mean that Christians are racists or we all agree with Westboro Baptist? While Islam authorizes "taqqiya" it is only under circumstances of persecution and oppression. That is, Islam does not demand martyrdom. It permits Muslims to, if local authorities run around saying "You have to burn a Koran or the police will shoot you." to burn a Koran while the police watch. God will understand and forgive. Taqqiya does NOT permit lying for personal gain nor for the purpose of converting someone else. It is only for the purpose of preservation of life in the face of immanent threat.

If you are going to trash talk a religion, it behooves you to actually know something about that religion.


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## jvarnell

I was told of the meaning of Taqiyya and kitman as he knew it and it is exactly as I have said.  I did some research and this is some of the stuff I found on a Islamic website.

" Taqiyya and kitman or 'holy hypocrisy' has been diffused throughout Arabic culture for over fourteen hundred years since it was developed by Shiites as a means of defence and concealment of beliefs against Sunni unbelievers. As the Prophet said: 'he who keeps secrets shall soon attain his objectives.' "

It was the last line he was pointing to, you may not understand it the way he does.  You believe the way you want and I think that is a better way to believe but there are others that I have been exposed to that don't see quit the way you do.

I was only answering what I know about the thread title.  I don't talk trash I talk about things I have seen and learned.  Please help the people of the Islamic faith that do see it the way you do that they are wrong should listen to you.


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## Blake Bowden

Keep it civil....


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## lharoldo

Are we discussing violence among religions or religions itself? As somebody pointed before, the topic is if it's ok to muslims use violence against christians. I think it's not, and even vice-versa.


Freemason Connect Mobile


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## jvarnell

lharoldo said:


> Are we discussing violence among religions or religions itself? As somebody pointed before, the topic is if it's ok to muslims use violence against christians. I think it's not, and even vice-versa.
> Freemason Connect Mobile



When you separate state and religion as The US and Masons do you will see no organized Christian army. As long as there is a state religion of a country the two can get confused. The US army is not a Christian army but has Christians in it and is a defensive organization to defend it countrymen and allies.


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## lharoldo

Well, I agree. So are many other armies around the world. But, again, is it ok violence among religions? We see here in Brazil some attempts to demoralize christian faith, somebody could call that a violence, but that is as far as it goes here. Physical violence among religions in democracies, however, I think is unacceptable.


Freemason Connect Mobile


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## Michael Neumann

Several brethren have stated it best, respect and tolerance for each other is the only way forward. The media in no way helps the situation by sensationalizing the news. The fact remains that our nation is facing a threat, not from any religion but from politicians infringing upon our rights, that was the primary reason for my posting the article. When judges pass laws that make it ok for some groups to do 'x' while banning others from doing the same it splits the ranks. Much like our goverment passing laws that only apply to you and I.

Here is a newspaper article and link saying the same thing but I have yet to confirm it. Apparently they are pressing to see it as a civil rights violation to insult Islam on Facebook, Twitter, Email, or Blogs. Nobody should be insulted for ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, religion, or really for any other reason but it happens every day. I think this treads a little too deep into free speech... flag burning would be ok but do not insult a religion? 

Newspaper article - http://www.tullahomanews.com/?p=15360 

http://gopthedailydose.com/2013/06/01/doj-slam-muslims-on-facebook-face-feds/


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## jvarnell

lharoldo said:


> Well, I agree. So are many other armies around the world. But, again, is it ok violence among religions? We see here in Brazil some attempts to demoralize christian faith, somebody could call that a violence, but that is as far as it goes here. Physical violence among religions in democracies, however, I think is unacceptable.
> Freemason Connect Mobile



On the thread title it should have had a ? at the end.  At least that is how I read it.

I as a Christian feel a push against me every day by more than other religions but people that read the old testament more than the new testament and think they are pointing at ideals but they are point at dogma.  The people that put down the faith for some reason don't understand that, that is a communistic ideal to remove all religion.  The state is the religion and only point of control.


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## Michael Hatley

I don't feel this push, but then again, I am a Deist and not a Christian.  It is why I am a Unitarian Universalist, which holds very similar views as Freemasonry itself does - equality of all religions.

For me, personally, God takes no special favorites and there is no one chosen people.  

So at the end of the day the only thing that Christianity has going for it is that I am familiar with it.  I feel no special need to defend it.

And when someone delineates between the Old and New Testament as one being dogma based and the other not, well - with respect, it is by definition all dogma.  As is our ritual and history as Freemasons.  Heck one of our more famous texts is even named "Morals and Dogma".

Does that mean it is without value?  No.  Is it worth committing violence over?  Not to me.

For me the only worthwhile use of physical violence is to prevent physical violence done to those who cannot defend themselves.  

As for stamping out of religion being a communistic value, I reckon that one of the earliest occurrences of it was actually Plato.  In his Republic, he envisioned getting rid of Homer, Hesiod, and so forth.  Now its true that Plato influenced the Communists, but he also put a strong mark on most Western Philosophers (including Locke and our Founding Fathers).  And of course the Third Reich was Fascist and not Communist.  But, anyway.

I know a lot of folks despise the ACLU and other groups like them.  They get on my nerves too.  But stamping out religion isn't most of their goal, not really. 

Think on it, if your children attended a school funded by your tax dollars where all the prayers were Islamic, and you didn't have options to send them somewhere else - would it be about stamping out religion that you might prefer that these prayers not take place at school?  After all, everyone is free to worship in their leisure time as they wish.  You just would want your kiddo to not have to feel uncomfortable during a prayer every day, and feel the need to conform.  It isn't like 99.999% of people in this world are against people being able to say a prayer silently to themselves over their food to any manifestation of God they wish to.

But pointing that out almost always gets me "we are a Christian nation", which, as a Deist, I could argue pretty strongly - as most of our founding documents, many of the founding fathers, and indeed Freemasonry itself is, in actuality, a fair bit more Deist than Christian.  

No matter your view on that, what I think we can agree on is that the United States was based on religious freedom.  When our public institutions leverage Christianity as opposed to another religion, that is not freedom, it is perpetuating one religion at the expense of the views of others.  

For what purpose?  I see little, personally.

And, also my opinion here, I think that the incursions people feel upon their own religions are often exaggerated.  Noone is preventing anyone in this country from worshiping how they wish.  We don't need Christian mottos engraved on our capitol buildings or Christian prayers over the meal at our public schools, those are distracting and needlessly divisive small things.  What matters is that our religious institutions are free, that people may worship how they choose, and that people do not discriminate against a person based on their religious affiliation.

We don't even need "under God" in our national or Texas pledge of allegiance.  And in fact, it wasn't added to our national pledge until 1954, almost 200 years after the formation of this great nation.  The "under God" bit to our Texas pledge wasn't added until 5 years ago.  We got along fine without it in either for many, many generations.

Even our national motto "In God We Trust" wasn't changed to that until 1956.

Familiar with McCarthyism?  Its height was 1950-1956.  The anti-communist bent was going on big guns back then.

And really, things like "In God We Trust", no matter how true or good a motto - really eclipses our original motto:

_*E pluribus unum

*_Out of many, one.

That, Brethren, is what out nation is founded on.  No ambiguity, no polarization.  Unity.  

/ramble


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## jvarnell

Michael Hatley said:


> I don't feel this push, but then again, I am a Deist and not a Christian. It is why I am a Unitarian Universalist, which holds very similar views as Freemasonry itself does - equality of all religions.
> 
> For me, personally, God takes no special favorites and there is no one chosen people.
> 
> So at the end of the day the only thing that Christianity has going for it is that I am familiar with it. I feel no special need to defend it.
> 
> And when someone delineates between the Old and New Testament as one being dogma based and the other not, well - with respect, it is by definition all dogma. As is our ritual and history as Freemasons. Heck one of our more famous texts is even named "Morals and Dogma".
> 
> Does that mean it is without value? No. Is it worth committing violence over? Not to me.
> 
> For me the only worthwhile use of physical violence is to prevent physical violence done to those who cannot defend themselves.
> 
> As for stamping out of religion being a communistic value, I reckon that one of the earliest occurrences of it was actually Plato. In his Republic, he envisioned getting rid of Homer, Hesiod, and so forth. Now its true that Plato influenced the Communists, but he also put a strong mark on most Western Philosophers (including Locke and our Founding Fathers). And of course the Third Reich was Fascist and not Communist. But, anyway.
> 
> I know a lot of folks despise the ACLU and other groups like them. They get on my nerves too. But stamping out religion isn't most of their goal, not really.
> 
> Think on it, if your children attended a school funded by your tax dollars where all the prayers were Islamic, and you didn't have options to send them somewhere else - would it be about stamping out religion that you might prefer that these prayers not take place at school? After all, everyone is free to worship in their leisure time as they wish. You just would want your kiddo to not have to feel uncomfortable during a prayer every day, and feel the need to conform. It isn't like 99.999% of people in this world are against people being able to say a prayer silently to themselves over their food to any manifestation of God they wish to.
> 
> But pointing that out almost always gets me "we are a Christian nation", which, as a Deist, I could argue pretty strongly - as most of our founding documents, many of the founding fathers, and indeed Freemasonry itself is, in actuality, a fair bit more Deist than Christian.
> 
> No matter your view on that, what I think we can agree on is that the United States was based on religious freedom. When our public institutions leverage Christianity as opposed to another religion, that is not freedom, it is perpetuating one religion at the expense of the views of others.
> 
> For what purpose? I see little, personally.
> 
> And, also my opinion here, I think that the incursions people feel upon their own religions are often exaggerated. Noone is preventing anyone in this country from worshiping how they wish. We don't need Christian mottos engraved on our capitol buildings or Christian prayers over the meal at our public schools, those are distracting and needlessly divisive small things. What matters is that our religious institutions are free, that people may worship how they choose, and that people do not discriminate against a person based on their religious affiliation.
> 
> We don't even need "under God" in our national or Texas pledge of allegiance. And in fact, it wasn't added to our national pledge until 1954, almost 200 years after the formation of this great nation. The "under God" bit to our Texas pledge wasn't added until 5 years ago. We got along fine without it in either for many, many generations.
> 
> Even our national motto "In God We Trust" wasn't changed to that until 1956.
> 
> Familiar with McCarthyism? Its height was 1950-1956. The anti-communist bent was going on big guns back then.
> 
> And really, things like "In God We Trust", no matter how true or good a motto - really eclipses our original motto:
> 
> _*E pluribus unum
> 
> *_Out of many, one.
> 
> That, Brethren, is what out nation is founded on. No ambiguity, no polarization. Unity.
> 
> /ramble



I see the defrances of the new and old testament and it is a change in covenant.  We must respect the old covenant and look to the new covenant for our actions.  The old covenant tell us that God is going to strike us down right now for our sinful ways.  The new covenant say spread the word to all nations tell them of there sinful ways and through grace you can be saved from the striking.  There is grace of the almighty.

Look at the definition of dogma, Morals, ideology and religion.  Ideology is what makes religion a religion.  Morals and Dogma are what makes rules for religion and they are written by man to explain the religion.  They may be divinely defined but we as humans have to figure that out.  The bases of Islam or Christianity go back to there ideology and if the only path to God in that religion is works and not grace you see God as vengeful like to old testament and must do the same to get to heaven/nirvana/and so on. 

And I can't say anything about the rest of what you said this is not the thread for that topic.


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## Michael Hatley

Thats probably true.  I was just hoping to come at the undercurrent that Islam is an inherently negative religion in some posts here from other tangents, but I agree I was all over the place.

So to focus - do you believe a man can become a good man through Islam?  Salvation is something else, but is it possible for Islam to make a man "good"?

Or does it corrupt a man?

Or is it a wash, and merely to be tolerated?

I come down on the first of the three.  

Where do you, Brother?


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## jvarnell

Michael Hatley said:


> Thats probably true. I was just hoping to come at the undercurrent that Islam is an inherently negative religion in some posts here from other tangents, but I agree I was all over the place.
> 
> So to focus - do you believe a man can become a good man through Islam? Salvation is something else, but is it possible for Islam to make a man "good"?
> 
> Or does it corrupt a man?
> 
> Or is it a wash, and merely to be tolerated?
> 
> I come down on the first of the three.
> 
> Where do you, Brother?



It depends on others belief in the Quran and how you read it. I can not say because I have seen how someone else reads it and have been told by a Muslim to my face they can lie to me it is hard to believe anything. "do you believe a man can become a good man through Islam?" Yes if he only reads the part that leaves out Mohammad's dark time. But I still will say Mohammad is not a profit and if I was a part of his army in 635ad I would have been beheaded for stating that. but that is my belief. The dark times or "satanic verses" of the Quran I do not believe will make a good man good. It is in that mans hart on what they except and reject.

It is between he and God.


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## widows son

*It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*

• Well put brother Hatley. 

"For me, personally, God takes no special favorites and there is no one chosen people. "

• I feel the same way on that subject.


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## widows son

*It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*

"So to focus - do you believe a man can become a good man through Islam? Salvation is something else, but is it possible for Islam to make a man "good"?

Or does it corrupt a man?

Or is it a wash, and merely to be tolerated?

I come down on the first of the three. 

Where do you, Brother?"

• A friend of mine i met in high school is Muslim. I've known him for about 10 years. His is one of the nicest down to earth people I've met and know. He doesn't try to impose anything on anyone, although he is active in his faith. We do discuss religion every now and then but we know each others stance on the subject so it's very respectful. He respects my membership in Freemasonry and asks thoughtful questions about it. He is absolutely against the violence that occurs in the name of Islam, or any religion.  His comes from a family that advocates hard work, and the importance of family and God. 

I think based on my friendship, that Islam most definitely can make any man good. I wouldn't have it any different.


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## Spawny

Lets take a step back from religion for a moment. As a black man in America I find myself at times embarrassed ashamed of what I see blacks doing in this country. Doesn't matter if it was from a ghetto, or a privilege black person. I've worked amongst whites most my life and when I hear a story of crime, drugs, neglect, murder or single parenthood I feel ashamed. Truth is that's not all blacks nor how we feel. Vice versa, I have white friends that chime in on history discussions and put there head down SS if they committed the act of slavery. The minority who wanted slavery did not speak for the majority, but they still apologizes for the minority actions. It's a few who can turn a fight into a riot and make a race or religion look bad. Your faith doesn't make you a good man it's your heart. Truth is aught, falsehood is naught, it can't be change only disguised. What's in your heart is who you are, doesn't mean it's who you have to be. SMIB!


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## dew_time

I 100%, whole heartly don't want anyone to take this wrong. I've read a lot of topics on this forum and no matter what the subject is the conversation always comes back to a black and white/evil whitey inslaved the poor black man. That was a very long time ago and I personally have never owned a slave nor did my parents or their parent and so on back to the days of when that occured. The closest thing I've ever had to a slave is my 19 year old son that has no job and I feel he deserves to mow the grass in exchange for the electric bill generated by video games that last all night. I feel as much guilt and need to apologize to him as I do a black guy these days. I didn't do it... you didn't live through it so where is the issue? Do I owe my best friend a pack of smokes eveyday bause his grand dad of more than 100 years ago was slave? NO!!

This topic was good topic to read. Muslims come in all shapes, sizes and color. Not all are bad and none of it has to do with american slavery issues of he past!!

With that said I concider this topic a dead horse.

Sent from my LG-VM696


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## Spawny

@dew_time lol, I feel the black white is or should be a dead issue. Good luck with your son. I only brought it up as an example. I've had personally heard white people feel ashamed of what happen and I tell them it's the past. Blacks weren't the first to be enslaved and it wasn't me. I believe let your works of today be a testimony of who you are. Today there are people in race and religion that long for the days of old which is sad. I believe we should write our on history for today that we black, white, Muslim, Christian, etc are better people then those from the past, and the ignorant people of today. I've been blessed to have Muslims and white friends that are like family. I would do anything for them before a stranger who shares my hew. 


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## dew_time

I glad you took this light hearted and in the spirit of good conversation. 

I totally agree with the statement you made in response to mine. 

I have work with a "born again" christian, no offence to them, but he kinda rubbed me wrong on the topic of muslims. When I asked his opinion of the religion he stated that it was ok if you wanted something blown up or killed. I politely excused myself from the conversation as I was a bit offended. The first thing I thought of was 'judge not'. Later that week I ran into him in passing and simply said that not all muslims have that intention and the ones that I know are kind, caring just plain good people. That was three years ago and to this day I won't engage his opionion on much. Ignorance is not always bliss!!

Sent from my LG-VM696


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## ufuze

Quite possibly the worst post on here.  You are simply trying to provocateur a violent event.  We are all brothers under the light.  This thread only brings out the darkness in weak brothers.  This thread deserves to be removed.

Freemason Connect Mobile


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## dfreybur

Michael Hatley said:


> So to focus - do you believe a man can become a good man through Islam?



I think a man can become better by following tenants of any religion, within limits.

Religion is good for the soul so practicing it feels good.  Since it feels good it's tempting to practice more but it's also easy to overdose on religion and become a fundie.  Masonry is one school that teaches how to use the moderation needed to handle this conundrum by known what our bounds should be.  Masonry is not the only school that teaches how to handle this conundrum.


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## widows son

*It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*

"Quite possibly the worst post on here. You are simply trying to provocateur a violent event. We are all brothers under the light. This thread only brings out the darkness in weak brothers. This thread deserves to be removed."

• I think it's good to be able to express these subjects, in the light of the fact that we can't as masons in a tiled lodge. I see posts that reflect different viewpoints from experiences the brethren on here have on these subjects.  

Debates aren't always a walk through a meadow. And nor should they when topics of a serious nature is in question. 

At the end of the day we're all still brothers, and I think this thread has caused no ill will among the brethren here.


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## dew_time

*Re: It’s Ok For Muslim Violence Against Christians*



widows son said:


> At the end of the day we're all still brothers, and I think this thread has caused no ill will among the brethren here.



None here... well said 



Sent from my LG-VM696


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## Frater Cliff Porter

I will always support freedom of religion and not freedom from it.  I would support any student being allowed to pray so long as it was not in the middle of class...which, in my opinion, should be used for learning.


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## Michael Neumann

ufuze said:


> Quite possibly the worst post on here.  You are simply trying to provocateur a violent event.  We are all brothers under the light.  This thread only brings out the darkness in weak brothers.  This thread deserves to be removed.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



You and many others, including myself at times, have went off topic. Did you visit the initial link provided? How about any of the others? Or did you just read the title and one or two responses then posted your comment. As for myself I read threads beginning with the initial post all the way through the most recent post before commenting. 

Always square yourself and advance properly before judging.


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## andrew626

Cheers to all my future brothers:beer: to a life long correspondence , mi corazon por vida

Freemason Connect Mobile


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## BryanMaloney

Tripolski Janos said:


> Peace is market place with Europa and energy (solar furie combinated wit hidrogen.



The only part of your post with which I can agree. Remove the money that comes in due to oil, and Islamofascism will cease being a problem and recede back into the hinterlands.


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## BryanMaloney

Michael Neumann said:


> You and many others, including myself at times, have went off topic. Did you visit the initial link provided? How about any of the others? Or did you just read the title and one or two responses then posted your comment. As for myself I read threads beginning with the initial post all the way through the most recent post before commenting.
> 
> Always square yourself and advance properly before judging.



I did read the link, and I can explain it quite succinctly: Michigan is a Democratic party-dominate state. Like it or not, that sort of nonsense is what is fashionable in such states. Republican-dominated states indulge in different nonsense. It's not a matter of "our society" but the dogmas of purely domestic political wonks trying to score points either with their hardcore base or elite funding sources.

If ordinary people of any religion get kicked around, it doesn't matter, they're not rich and they aren't part of the hardcore base.

To get this back onto Freemasonry, I wonder how things would turn out if it were a matter of Lodge Brother Judge having to deal with Lodge Brother A vs. Lodge Brother B in court. All of a sudden, it would be harder to take either side and one would at least have a moral obligation to prefer fairness and to insist upon a conciliatory outcome rather than a polarizing one...


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## jvarnell

I hate to stir the pot again but this pic off of the AP wire made me think of this theard.


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## LittleHunter

Although I am a Christian I respect Islam. I feel we all have much to learn from one another. We are all children Of the same Creator.


Freemason Connect Mobile


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## jvarnell

Abdulala2000 said:


> I am Muslim and my wife is Christian. Our children are exposed to both. We have mutual respect for each other. Also, I served 14 years in the Marine Corps. I follow Islam to the fullest and respect all faiths. People will say the Quran says this and Hadith says that. But these same people may not have ever read what they are 'quoting', got ahold of weak Hadith, or say things to make people think ill of Muslims and Islam.
> Freemason Connect Mobile


I have read both and I have both mind you as a translation.  I don't think ill of Muslims but with what I was told by an ex-friend (not a mason) it scares me some times.  I wish I could discusses some times what I have read but when I have tried in the past I was told I had to read it in Arabic first to understand it.  I am not a linguist but my translation was given to me by that ex-friend.

I hope to meet you some day and this was not meant to cause any consternation but show what scares me.  Kids being brought up to hate because I will insult everything from time to time not just a religion.  It is my right as an American to say stuff that is good and bad and I don't want to not say it just because it might make someone mad.


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## Frater Cliff Porter

Christians have horrible signs to:

http://www.godhatesfags.com


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## BrinkJ

I'm sure this has been pointed out somewhere in the last five pages, BUT, in lodge we don't speak about religion for this reason.  We as humans have not figured out how to discuss religious differences without offending someone who's religion differs from our own.  Violence begets violence, it is never ok to treat other religions as a lesser belief.  One of the key points in Masonry that drew me in was our belief in The Grand Architect, not separating ourselves from brothers over their belief in God, Allah, Budha, Odin, or any of the countless other deities around the globe.


Bro John
FC, Elmore Lodge #30

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## Aeelorty

> I hope to meet you some day and this was not meant to cause any consternation but show what scares me. Kids being brought up to hate because I will insult everything from time to time not just a religion. It is my right as an American to say stuff that is good and bad and I don't want to not say it just because it might make someone mad.



I think the point of this thread should be to show that people are people. The same tragedies of our base nature affects every group. To those children who are holding up hate signs, I feel pity not fear. They cut of swaths of the world and other people from their lives and I find that incredibly depressing. 




> No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece
> of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by
> the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
> well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's
> death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and
> therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for
> thee
> -John Donne


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## Frater Cliff Porter

Religion has done wonderful things in the world.  The greatest buildings, the greatest societies, the greatest feats of men are often joined to their worship and love of God.  So to, as is the way of things, the worlds greatest atrocities have been based on religion.  To convince ourselves that our religion is free of these sins is the first step in allowing ourselves to condemn others.


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## jvarnell

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> Christians have horrible signs to:
> 
> http://www.godhatesfags.com
> 
> View attachment 3257


Oh ya those guy I don't think of them as Christians  I wish no one did.


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## Frater Cliff Porter

jvarnell said:


> Oh ya those guy I don't think of them as Christians  I wish no one did.



 When I was in Istanbul last time and some news coverage of some Islamic Fundamentalist popped up, one of the Muslim men I was with said, "They are not true Muslims, they are not following the ways of Islam...I wish people understood this."


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## solomon1979

I can recall a time when the quran was illegal in the states. My sister is a muslim and I have read the quran. I lived in a major city with a enormous population of islamists and most of them tried to preach about their religion to people fervently. Most middle eastern countries only men have rights,but In this country men and women have equal rights and That transcends religion. Subservience and polygamy are illegal and you have to obey the law of the land. If you are a FREEMason? You should remember the oath you took.  


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## dfreybur

jvarnell said:


> Oh ya those guy I don't think of them as Christians  I wish no one did.



There are people I wish weren't members of my religion.  If wishes were horses all the world would ride.  My wishing it does not make it so.  So while I agree with you neither of us gets to make that call.


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## Aeelorty

> Oh ya those guy I don't think of them as Christians I wish no one did.



isn't that the underlying argument, that the vast majority of Muslims wish something similar?


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## jwhoff

Zealots are Zealots ... no manner the holy scriptures they violate!


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