# FBI Stops Mass Shooting at Wisconsin Masonic Temple



## skas (Jan 26, 2016)

http://fox6now.com/2016/01/26/fbi-arrests-milwaukee-man-who-officials-say-planned-mass-shooting/

Scary stuff...


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 26, 2016)

And we don't carry weapons in Masonic lodges to protect ourselves... This is very sad


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## MBC (Jan 26, 2016)

give our Tylers some firearms!


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## Bloke (Jan 26, 2016)

Did you notice he got his info because the Freemasons gave him a tour? Welcomed him as they should and I will continue to do.....


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## Bill Lins (Jan 26, 2016)

skas said:


> http://fox6now.com/2016/01/26/fbi-arrests-milwaukee-man-who-officials-say-planned-mass-shooting/
> 
> Scary stuff...


Fixed thread title...


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## Glen Cook (Jan 26, 2016)

Maybe I'll be packin to CGMNA in Masdison next month


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 26, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Maybe I'll be packin to CGMNA in Masdison next month


Ha ha. That's funny. Make sure the Tyler doesn't find it.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 26, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> From what I have read about reactionary and revolutionary groups in the US, the rule is: if a member is pushing for violence then that member is being paid by the FBI.
> 
> The more such reports, the bigger the budget.


Hey brother, just out of curiosity. Are you a conspiracy theorist ? No problem if you are, just wondering.


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## Joseph Thornton (Jan 27, 2016)

I have Conspiracy Interest. We'd be fool not to assume there are at least some Conspiracies around us effecting our lives and decisions being made that we are not included in.

Conspiracy investigations is what REALLY spurred my interest in Freemasons. The more I looked, the LESS I believed them, and finally decided to become one myself. (still waiting to petition)


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## AndreAshlar (Jan 27, 2016)

These types of stories are the main reason for my evolving views on firearms in masonic lodges and churches...


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 27, 2016)

I have thought for a while that something like this might happen because of all of the goofy conspiracy stuff on the internet about Freemasonry. However, I didn't foresee an attack by an Islamist radical.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 27, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> And we don't carry weapons in Masonic lodges to protect ourselves... This is very sad


Absolutely agree. Those of us that carry firearms should be allowed to do so in lodge for our own protection and that of everyone else.


AndreAshlar said:


> These types of stories are the main reason my views on firearms in masonic lodges and churches are evolving...


I carry in church. My pastor knows and has no problem with it. One of my friends in church told me that she felt more comfortable knowing that I am armed.

 Just my opinion.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 27, 2016)

AndreAshlar said:


> These types of stories are the main reason for my evolving views on firearms in masonic lodges and churches...


I wonder what steps would have to be made in order for subordinate lodges to arm their members ? I'm sure many masons have seen this article, so the GLS will have to do something or members wont attend meetings and soon will become inactive. Just my opinion


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## AndreAshlar (Jan 27, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> Absolutely agree. Those of us that carry firearms should be allowed to do so in lodge for our own protection and that of everyone else
> 
> I carry in church. My pastor knows and has no problem with it. One of my friends in church told me that she felt more comfortable knowing that I am armed.
> . Just my opinion.


I've argued vigorously, in the past, against firearms in the lodge.  I'm not ready to completely turn over a new leaf... but I'm leaning that way.  Heavily.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 27, 2016)

I carry a firearm everywhere I go. Work, church, military, etc. Before I joined our church, my pastor told me that there were multiple people in our church carrying including himself. He also advised me that I could carry due to my experiences with firearms (Careers) I knew right then that was the church for my family.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 27, 2016)

MBC said:


> give our Tylers some firearms!


That's what I told our Tyler...you may have to start packing something more than a symbolic sword...


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 27, 2016)

Ankle holster, no one would know lol


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## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2016)

AndreAshlar said:


> These types of stories are the main reason for my evolving views on firearms in masonic lodges and churches...



Remember the principle - Different jurisdiction different rules.  More than that - Within one jurisdiction different lodge different rules.

Candidates are disarmed, but that's only discussed in the first degree and only about candidates.  Some brothers interpret that to include members but that's not what the ritual actually says.

There exist jurisdictions that tell members to be disarmed in tiled meetings and jurisdictions that do not.  In jurisdictions that do not there are lodges that tell members to be disarmed in tiled meetings and lodges that do not.

My mother lodge happens to have a lot of current and retired police officers.  If you know where to look there is usually at least one member who has a little pouch carefully positioned to not draw notice.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 27, 2016)

"Candidates are disarmed, but that's only discussed in the first degree and only about candidates. Some brothers interpret that to include members but that's not what the ritual actually says."


The way I see it, no matter which degree you're open on, at the very least the Tyler is always "armed" symbolically with a sword but I see nothing wrong with the Tyler, if he's comfortable with it, being ALLOWED to carry a pistol. Open or concealed. Thats literally his job and we mau be in a time when it becomes necessary. To guard against Cs, Es and now maybe terrorists/enemies should be added to that.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 27, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Remember the principle - Different jurisdiction different rules.  More than that - Within one jurisdiction different lodge different rules.
> 
> Candidates are disarmed, but that's only discussed in the first degree and only about candidates.  Some brothers interpret that to include members but that's not what the ritual actually says.
> 
> ...


Your are very right. A lot of brethren believe it goes for everyone. I'm going to be bringing this up in our next lodge meeting, and if I have to I will call Grand and see what's their input on it.


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## Joseph Thornton (Jan 27, 2016)

Tylers are symbolic. Not every tyler is actually comfortable and capable of using firearms. Same goes for school principals. Many advocate a solution of school violence is to require the principle to train and carry. This could be used against him if he isn't really proficient and really able to retain his own weapon from violent students or other attackers.

I'm confident our Masonic Founding Fathers (US colonies) would have no issues with Masons having the ability to defend themselves in and out of the lodge.

Even if the lodge were in some way secure, there would need to be a clear effort to remove stigma and paranoia from Masonic brothers who see other members securing their sidearm when they come in, and re-arming themselves before exit.


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## AndreAshlar (Jan 27, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> Tylers are symbolic. Not every tyler is actually comfortable and capable of using firearms. Same goes for school principals. Many advocate a solution of school violence is to require the principle to train and carry. This could be used against him if he isn't really proficient and really able to retain his own weapon from violent students or other attackers.
> 
> I'm confident our Masonic Founding Fathers (US colonies) would have no issues with Masons having the ability to defend themselves in and out of the lodge.
> 
> Even if the lodge were in some way secure, there would need to be a clear effort to remove stigma and paranoia from Masonic brothers who see other members securing their sidearm when they come in, and re-arming themselves before exit.


Excellent


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## Joseph Thornton (Jan 27, 2016)

Oh! not to mention a principle or tyler could be very effective at his position but disqualified but he isn't the right person to carry a gun.

I know that no one here was suggesting that, it's just a line of thought that follows that course.


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## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> A lot of brethren believe it goes for everyone. I'm going to be bringing this up in our next lodge meeting, and if I have to I will call Grand and see what's their input on it.



Listen carefully to the explanatory lecture.  It explains how the candidate is prepared without reference to the brethren.  While it is easy to extend that to the members that is not what the explanatory lecture actually says.  As worded it only applies to the candidate as the only specially prepared man in the room.

Rather than call GL, ask your Junior Warden to look it up in the book.  In many jurisdictions he's required to study the rule book.  If not the JW the Secretary is required to keep a current copy.


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## Companion Joe (Jan 27, 2016)

I know of one lodge that has a set of numbered drawers at the Tiler's station so members can leave their pistols.
I have never taken a gun into a lodge meeting (I've never felt the need to), but I'd be willing to bet cash money I've sat beside members who've had one on them.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 27, 2016)

There may be no need for this just yet, but as patriotic Americans, I don't see a problem with it in the first place and I think that back in the 1800s men wore their pieces. 2nd Amendment...Not long guns or shotguns/AR-15 types just low-key is fine. I don't want it turning political or turning into a gun show or NRA meeting but the right to bear arms should be ok as long as enough votes were given to do so. Not trying to go back to the 1800s, but I trust every man in our lodge with a gun and I trust they have my back.


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## hanzosbm (Jan 28, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Listen carefully to the explanatory lecture.  It explains how the candidate is prepared without reference to the brethren.  While it is easy to extend that to the members that is not what the explanatory lecture actually says.  As worded it only applies to the candidate as the only specially prepared man in the room.



It might vary based on jurisdiction, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with this.  KY for instance could be argued either way.  Yes, it states why the candidate was prepared in that manner, but it goes on to say "as the principles of Masonry, forbidding one..."
Like it said, it isn't clear either way, but stating it as a principle of Masonry, at least in my mind, certainly opens the door for an argument that it extends to all brethren. 

Now, would I like to be armed in Lodge (or everywhere for that matter)?  Yes.  But I also think that we need to be careful not to allow our own desires to sway our interpretation of Masonic teachings.  Now, like I said, that is KY.  CA has nothing like that whatsoever and you'd have a hard time making an argument that it extends to the brethren based on CA ritual.  My point is, I don't think we can cast a blanket statement saying that is 100% only applies to the candidate.

Switching gears a bit, I think we've all seen old illustrations showing multiple brothers with swords drawn within the lodge.  So I'd be curious to know how far back that particular part of the ritual goes.  Looks like I've got some reading to do today.


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## AndreAshlar (Jan 28, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> ...we need to be careful not to allow our own desires to sway our interpretation of Masonic teachings.


Indeed!


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## dfreybur (Jan 28, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> It might vary based on jurisdiction



Absolutely.  Your jurisdiction your rules - a GL can has a regulation rule or edict to be disarmed.  Your lodge your rules as long as they do not violate GL rules - a lodge in a jurisdiction with no ruling on the topic can add a bylaw to be disarmed.

I also point out that since Masonry is international - Your country your laws.  We function in disarmed countries.

If you disagree with the law, the edict or the bylaw, feel free to submit legislation on the matter so it goes up for vote to see if you can cause a change.  In either direction.  I figure it would be quite a challenge to make it not partisan.  Remember that partisan politics is not in the voice of the speaker.  It's in the ears of the listeners.  Much harder to pull off.



> but I'm not sure I entirely agree with this.



I'm not big on expecting agreement.  Men disagree on topics and move on to other topics.



> Switching gears a bit, I think we've all seen old illustrations showing multiple brothers with swords drawn within the lodge.  So I'd be curious to know how far back that particular part of the ritual goes.  Looks like I've got some reading to do today.



Sounds York Rite to me.  Companions with swords.  Or an open meeting with the great lights closed.


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## hanzosbm (Jan 28, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Sounds York Rite to me.  Companions with swords.  Or an open meeting with the great lights closed.



Could be.  I don't know the original source for the picture, nor am I YR, so I couldn't say for sure.  Here's one of the pictures I was referring to.


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## dfreybur (Jan 28, 2016)

I love that picture.  All sorts of details.  Nine candles.  Armed members.  Are those fellow-crafts on the side the ones who are who are weary from travel or the ones tided up for judgment.


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## hanzosbm (Jan 28, 2016)

From a historical context, I happened to have my copy of The Lectures of The Three Degrees in Craft Masonry with me and check it.  It does contain the prohibition (for the candidate) so we know that it was part of the ritual, at least in some jurisdictions, in 1874.  That illustration is from circa 1805, and, obviously, pertains to the portion you mentioned, which also throws a wrench into the works a bit as the "setting" isn't exactly standard.  Fun stuff.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 28, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I wonder what steps would have to be made in order for subordinate lodges to arm their members?


Under GLoTX, we would have to introduce a resolution permitting the bearing of arms by our members & get it approved. As such a measure failed to pass 2 years ago, we would have to wait until 2017 to introduce another.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 28, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Ha ha. That's funny. Make sure the Tyler doesn't find it.


No Tyler at the Conference of Grand Masters.  Besides, Wisconsin in February?  I'll have so many layers a Howitzer would go unnoticed


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 28, 2016)

Bro. Cook your a smart man.


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## MRichard (Jan 29, 2016)

Statement from the Grand Lodge F.&A.M. of WI and Wisconsin Scottish Rite 
http://www.rcreader.com/news-releas.../#st_refDomain=www.facebook.com&st_refQuery=/


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## Bloke (Jan 29, 2016)

Good statement


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## Bloke (Jan 29, 2016)

Who's to say this is an accurate representation of a masonic meeting ?


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## Mel Knight (Jan 29, 2016)

In GA you can bring a firearm to lodge


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## Bloke (Jan 29, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> The little blobs occur in quite a number of French depictions of the 3rd



Thanks. Mentioned this to QLDer today who said it was representative


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## Bloke (Jan 29, 2016)

Of his QLD Lodge workings...


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## Bloke (Jan 30, 2016)

Interesting. .. funny, the guys holding the swords are left handed. ... i've never looked closely at it before...


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## Brother JC (Jan 30, 2016)

They are tears. Enlightenment Lodge uses an apron similarly adorned during one portion of degree work, and I've seen old Lodge of Sorrows aprons like this as well.


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## Bloke (Jan 31, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> Quite right.  Whose tears are relevant to the 3rd degree?



Rhetorical question.


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## vangoedenaam (Feb 1, 2016)

Its scary. And i am a lot closer to both Paris and Syria that those in the USA.


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