# Under who's juridiction?



## Blake Bowden (Jan 14, 2011)

If I had the opportunity to visit a Lodge in Massachusetts, would I be bound to the rules and regulations of their GL, the GL of Texas or both?


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## Casey (Jan 14, 2011)

good question.  You're asking for a law based answer.  I'll wait for some more of the learned brothers to answer that.  I am going to answer based on what I feel.  I feel you would be bound by their (Ma.) rules/regulations/bylaws.  If our grand lodge has any problems with the ways of that jurisdiction that are severe enough for it to be a masonic violation they would pull recognition from that jurisdiction.

A lot like going to a friends home;  ..... who makes the rules??..... He does.


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## Jamesb (Jan 14, 2011)

"Under whose jurisdiction I may be...."  I was under the impression that this covered it.  But I also beleive that Texas Rules trump all others if in doubt.  Excellent question though I can't wait to see what others say, I plan to visit other states as well and would like to see the impressions of others.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 14, 2011)

I have to agree with "their house, their rules". Of course, Masonic principles are pretty much the same world-wide, so I'd think that if you behaved according to our laws & precepts, you couldn't go too far wrong.


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## robert leachman (Jan 14, 2011)

...'cept up there you might have to get dressed up to sit in Lodge.
Kinda goes against what we learned the first night if you ask me, though I don't think tshirts and cut off are OK either.


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## Blake Bowden (Jan 14, 2011)

So if I traveled to Massachusetts, could I attend Lodge with a Prince Hall Mason?


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## Joey (Jan 14, 2011)

Blake Bowden said:
			
		

> So if I traveled to Massachusetts, could I attend Lodge with a Prince Hall Mason?



Ultimately I think the answer would be yes...


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Jan 15, 2011)

Blake Bowden said:


> So if I traveled to Massachusetts, could I attend Lodge with a Prince Hall Mason?


 
I believe that answer is in two parts:

1) Yes, you could sit in a GLoMA Lodge with a PHA Brother
2) No, you cold not sit in a MWPHGLoMA with a MA Brother

At least this is what I have been told by several well versed Brethren pertaining to my similar inquiry about OK visitation.


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## cemab4y (Jan 16, 2011)

I have been researching this topic for some weeks. I belong to two lodges (KY and Mass). I reside in Virginia. I work in Afghanistan. I attend a lodge, that is chartered by the Grand Lodge of Ontario (Canada). 

Since my residence is in Virginia, does the Grand Lodge of Virginia require me to follow their regulations? And if I broke a Virginia masonic rule, how would they discipline me? Give me a letter of reprimand? I would throw it in the trash. Suspend me from Virginia Masonry? How can I be suspended from a lodge, that I am not a member of? Expel me from Virginia Masonry? Again, how can I be expelled from a Grand Lodge, that I am not a member of?

I respect Virginia masonry, and I have visited many of their lodges. But I feel that the Grand Lodge of Virginia has no control over me. 

One of my Grand Lodges (Mass) has fraternal relations with Prince Hall masonry. One (KY) does not. Can I attend a Prince Hall lodge? If I do, Kentucky can suspend me, and ask Mass. to withdraw my membership, and Mass. would have to comply.


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## cemab4y (Jan 16, 2011)

When I am in Virginia, am I under the jurisdiction of the GL of Virginia? If I violate a VA regulation, can VA discipline me? If so, how? And what is the punishment: Reprimand, suspension, or expulsion? Reprimand that I can throw in the trash, and I cannot be suspended nor expelled from a VA lodge, because I do not belong to any VA lodge.

If I am in Afghanistan, where there is no Grand Lodge, and I visit a Prince Hall lodge, am I in violation? I belong to two lodges, KY and Mass. Mass recognizes PH masonry, KY does not (yet). So can I visit as a Mass Mason? I would be in violation of KY regulations, and be subject to KY discipline. 

I was involved in setting up a military traveling lodge in Iraq. There is NO Grand Lodge of Iraq, either in Iraq or in exile. (Iran has a Grand Lodge-in-exile, in Los Angeles Calif) . I was accused of wanting to be the Grand Master of Iraq. Absurd beyond belief.

---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 PM ----------

I got into a hassle one time. A young Marine, who was a Fellow Craft Mason, and member of a lodge in Walla Walla, Washington asked me for advice. He wanted to take his Master Mason degree, at a military traveling lodge in Iraq. I sent an email to the Grand Secretary of the GL of Washington, asking for advice. I wanted to know the procedure, for getting the authorization, to get the courtesy work approved.  I got reprimanded, for contacting the Grand Secretary, in a Grand Lodge where I was not a member. 

Grand Lodges are very protective of their "turf". They generally do not make allowances, for military and civilians in the combat zone. 

Nevertheless, I often contact the Grand Secretary of Virginia, when I need advice, or when a person is interested in joining a Virginia lodge. The GS of Virginia, has always been very helpful and kind. In the truest traditions of our Craft.

For the record , I am a CIVILIAN! A rumor has gotten around ,that I have been passing myself off as a soldier. Trust me, I am way too old and too fat for military service. I was in the Air Force 1973-1978.


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## jwhoff (Jan 16, 2011)

I get your drift Brother Blake.  Were it not a rules violation (of GLoTX) to set in a MWPHGLoMA lodge, I'd love to see the charter Prince Hall brought from England.  After all, I believe it is the oldest acted upon charter brought from the GLoE.  

Unfortunate.  But I think you can still see the second charter (first activated upon) in the GLoMA.  Still a very significant historical document.


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## deputy630 (Jan 17, 2011)

Blake Bowden said:


> So if I traveled to Massachusetts, could I attend Lodge with a Prince Hall Mason?



I would say no to this question because you are still a Texas Mason and we do not affiliate with Prince Hall!! We do affiliate with other Masonic Lodges in other states and when we visit those states we follow the rules of there Grand Lodge.... just my .02

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------




Kenneth Hart said:


> I believe it is about continuity. You are not within the jurisdiction of any GL at the moment because no GL claims Afghanistan as theirs. The GL of Canada is just visiting. I just went over the Texas MM obligation and it clearly states that one will abide by the rules ... of the GLoT or any other GL who's jurisdiction one may be .... So if you are within the jurisdiction of a GL that allows Masonic intercourse with PHA then you are within bounds of that GL and not your home GL.
> 
> NY GL allows alcohol within the Lodge building (dinning hall) but Texas does not. I did as the Brothers did and I was clearly in violation of Texas law- but within the boundaries of NY.
> 
> ...



Kenneth i would think that because his dues card says Texas that trumps anything that that lodges GL says... If Texas says you wont do it then you cant go to another state and say they said I can.....He still has to follow what Texas says.. If a NY mason came to Texas and wanted to drink in our lodge its wouldnt happen!! and he cant say well they let me do it in NY..... Look at it this way im a police office and they do not allow drug use at my job...... and if I travel to a country that allows drug use and I use said drug. I come back to my job and they test me. I show positive for drug use I cant say it was legal there so im good....I would still get fired....


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## david918 (Jan 17, 2011)

How about my case, I belong to two lodges here in Texas and also one in Minnesota. Can I visit a Prince Hall lodge in Minnesota since they recognize them and what if the Grand Lodge of Minnesota recognized the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas ?


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## deputy630 (Jan 17, 2011)

David I would have to say that you could per Minisota GL but you would def be violating Texas GL rules!! and in doing so you could fall under diciplinary action from the Texas GL.


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## deputy630 (Jan 18, 2011)

I can understand that.... But let me ask this do we just disregard our own GL rules just because we are out of the state??

 I'm just asking because this is very interesting question and a great topic and something that I myself would like to know!   Thnx Kenneth for the replies!


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## Timothy Fleischer (Jan 18, 2011)

Kenneth Hart said:


> I specifically looked for a Lodge that had relations with PHA to sit with a working Brother of PHA. The answers i received from a PGM of Washington State was yes we could sit together. Now as far as you sitting in a PHA Im not sure, I would assume yes because the local members could sit in a PHA Lodge why couldnt you?


 

You can only sit in lodge in another lodge that is fully-recognized by the Grand Lodge under whose jurisdiction you are.
If you are a Grand Lodge of Texas Mason, this means you can only sit in Lodge in those other Grand Lodges that are "Masonically recognized" by the GLoT. I presume that same would be true of the MWPHGLT.

The Grand Lodge of Texas prints a list of all of the Grand Lodges that it recognizes, as well as the names and numbers of the lodges under their jurisdictions. 

According to the literature in Additional Lodge Light program: "Your Lodge Secretary has a book listing all Lodges recognized by 
The Grand Lodge of Texas as being "Masonic" and with which we share fraternal relations. This book is called the "List of Lodges Masonic."

If you are going to travel out of state, viewing this list is a great idea. Also, plan far enough in advance that your Secretary can correspond (through the Grand Lodge Grand Secretary) with the other Jurisdiction and their lodge to let that lodge know that you plan to visit. 

Be sure that you are "brushed up" on your Masonry (Tiler's oath, modes of recognition, etc.) so that when you are examined by the lodge committee, you can get in the doors. Some lodges guard their doors rather strictly while others are more relaxed. Contact ahead of time to find out if there are any "traditions" regarding dress, behavior, etc., would also be a good idea, especially when traveling beyond a state's borders.

I hope to travel to Scotland one day to research my roots there and would like to plan on visiting some of the old Lodges there (as well as some fine Scotch distilleries). 

A new Mason to our Lodge, who was raised in Virginia Masonry, has what is called a "Masonic passport." It is basically a book that was presented to him by his Lodge some time after being raised. Each time he "travels" to another lodge, he gets it stamped by the Secretary of that lodge with a notation of the date and time of his visitation. I think that would be a great idea in Texas as well, encouraging all of us "traveling men" to visit and share Masonic friendship beyond our own borders!


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## Dave in Waco (Jan 18, 2011)

I would say that if you were a Texas Mason, you are first under the jurisdiction of Texas GL Law.  If you are a Texas Mason visiting another grand jurisdiction, you should follow their GL Law as long as it does not contradict or violate Texas GL Law since it is your home GL under who you are a member.  I would think that other grand jurisdictions would understand the reasons, and I do not think that most differences would be something that would get you in trouble with the grand jurisdiction you are visiting.  I would think most differences might be procedural and things like that.  But I would also bet if you asked GL you would get several different answers.

So for the question about visiting a PHA lodge while visiting a grand jurisdiction that recognizes and visiting benefits, I would think that since under Texas GL does not visiting benefits, I would think that would mean you still can't visit until which time the Texas GL's see fit to agree to extend those benefits to the members of both GL's here in Texas.


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## Bro. Bennett (Jan 22, 2011)

A good way to advise on this issue is to use a Parable;
A man is married to a woman in Texas. Texas does not recognise Poligamy. He travels to Odophia which does recognise Poligamy, so he indulges. He comes back to Texas which cannot try him for a crime because he did not commit it in the state of Texas. His wife finds out upon his return, what do you think she is going to do to his sorry butt.. 
Best way to put it is this; If in another land, remember your wife is at home with the frying pan in hand... Hope that helps...


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## owls84 (Jan 23, 2011)

david918 said:


> How about my case, I belong to two lodges here in Texas and also one in Minnesota. Can I visit a Prince Hall lodge in Minnesota since they recognize them and what if the Grand Lodge of Minnesota recognized the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas ?


 
This one is quite the pickle. I don't know on this. You are a member of both but for some reason I think this is covered in the law book. Time for me to test out my PDF version of the law book on my iPad iBooks App. I'll get back to us on this later but off the top of my head I want to think it is by the part that discusses filing charges on a member of another jurisdiction. Somewhere around that I am thinking.

---------- Post added at 03:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------

Someone should contact the Fraternal Relations Committee on this and ask. I am curious if you are sitting in a Lodge in Mass. that is recognized by the Grand Lodge of Texas AF&AM and a member of the PHGLofMass sits next to you what is protocol? If they are not recognized by your GL then they would be considered clandestine but you also are to follow the laws of the jurisdiction that you are visiting.

How do you leave as a visitor to not disrespect the visiting jurisdiction? I would like to know the official answer on this.


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## Dave in Waco (Jan 24, 2011)

Anyone know an email address for them?  I'll ask.  Actually, our DDGM is going to be visiting tomorrow night, I'm going to see what he says.


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## cemab4y (Jan 24, 2011)

Here is a scenario. A man belongs to a lodge in Kentucky (KY does not yet recognize Prince Hall). He also belongs to a lodge in New York. (NY has full fraternal relations with Prince Hall Masonry.). He is stationed in Iraq. No USA Grand Lodge (except Prince Hall) is interested in chartering any lodge in Iraq.

As a New York Mason, he is entitled to visit any New York Lodge, and any lodge that is recognized by the Grand Lodge of New York. 

If he goes to a social event in Iraq, (sponsored by a Prince Hall lodge), and is not asked to show a dues card, and never given an apron, and does not witness any degree work, nor anyone taking an oath, he is subject to Masonic discipline by the Grand Lodge of Kentucky. 

Taking out multiple lodge memberships, does not relieve the individual from following the regulations of ALL of his Grand Lodges. 

I disagree with this policy. I think that taking our multiple memberships, should give the Mason, MORE privileges, not less. He should be able to put the membership with the non-recognizing Grand Lodge on "hold", and participate in the social and non-tyled events of the Prince Hall lodge, as a New York Mason. 

And this is all the more reason, why all USA grand Lodges should immediately recognize, Prince Hall Masonry. Since no USA grand Lodge (except Prince Hall), is interested in chartering a lodge in Iraq or Afghanistan, military Masons should be able to participate in what Masonry there is, in the combat zone. 

(BTW- I am a CIVILIAN, some people think  that because I work in Afghanistan, I am a soldier. Trust me, I am way too old and too fat for military service. )


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## Dave in Waco (Jan 24, 2011)

cemab4y said:


> Here is a scenario. A man belongs to a lodge in Kentucky (KY does not yet recognize Prince Hall). He also belongs to a lodge in New York. (NY has full fraternal relations with Prince Hall Masonry.). He is stationed in Iraq. No USA Grand Lodge (except Prince Hall) is interested in chartering any lodge in Iraq.
> 
> As a New York Mason, he is entitled to visit any New York Lodge, and any lodge that is recognized by the Grand Lodge of New York.
> 
> ...



So KY won't even allow you to attend an open event put on by PHA?  That is kind of rough.  Texas would allow for open events, just not tiled events.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 24, 2011)

Dave in Waco said:


> Anyone know an email address for them?


 
Chairman: PGM Reese Harrison  rlh@obht.com
Vice-Chairman: Pete Normand  petenormand@aol.com


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## Dave in Waco (Jan 24, 2011)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Chairman: PGM Reese Harrison rlh@obht.com
> Vice-Chairman: Pete Normand petenormand@aol.com



I wrote to PGM Harrison.  I'll post whatever any response I may get.


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## Gerald.Harris (Jan 27, 2011)

I believe that the answer is yes, you could even sit in a PH Lodge, IF the Grand Lodge of Ma in fact recognizes and has visitation rights with the MWPHGLof MA. The key is that you are under another Grand Jourisdiction who has Masonic relations with the GLOT. I am anxious to her what one of our members of the Jurisprudence Committee says about this.


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## RobinWinslett (Jan 28, 2011)

A previous poster brought up that, in Texas, the secretary of your lodge has a book of all lodges that you have fraternal relations with and can freely visit. What would be the point of putting this book together if you could just wait until you are in another jurisdiction and use this as an excuse to visit a lodge that is clandestine in Texas?  If local rules trumped here, the book put out by the GLoT would only list the grand lodges.  Also, if you visit a lodge that is clandestine in Texas, you are producing a Texas dues card which should make you clandestine there.


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## Gerald.Harris (Jan 28, 2011)

Hello Brother Winslett, I believe the key to visitation, is that first of all, you have to establish whether the particular Grand Lodge is recognized by the Grand Lodge of Texas. Once that is established, then you are free to visit any lodge who is recognized, functioning,has visitation rights, and is in the jourisdiction of the Grand Lodge that is recognized by the Grand Lodge of Texas.  I hope that no one has taken any of what has been posted here as law or rules. It is still every Masons' duty and obligation, to make sure that he is visiting a lodge that is not clandestine. The laws of the Grand Lodge of Texas are still the document and instrument that determines what a Texas Mason can do when he is in another Grand Jourisdiction.



RobinWinslett said:


> A previous poster brought up that, in Texas, the secretary of your lodge has a book of all lodges that you have fraternal relations with and can freely visit. What would be the point of putting this book together if you could just wait until you are in another jurisdiction and use this as an excuse to visit a lodge that is clandestine in Texas?  If local rules trumped here, the book put out by the GLoT would only list the grand lodges.  Also, if you visit a lodge that is clandestine in Texas, you are producing a Texas dues card which should make you clandestine there.


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## RobinWinslett (Jan 28, 2011)

Thanks Bro. Harris.  I think we're saying the same thing, just in a different manner (best work and best agree).  I think the moral is to check, don't just assume.


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## mcrockett (Feb 2, 2011)

I just learned this the other day at the Secretary Forum.  The lodge in which you took your degrees is your "parent" lodge.  All other lodges joined after that would be "plural" lodges.  I am sure that is the case in state or out of state.  For example, a member of an OK lodge has to ask for a Cert. of Good Standing in order to join a TX lodge. That TX lodge has to be recognized by OK in their book of lodges masonic. 

With that being the case, shouldn't it be up to your "parent" lodge's GL law for visitation?


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