# Masonic communication between "mainstream" Masonry and PH Masonry



## Philos (Aug 28, 2016)

Hopefully a well informed brother can help me out. 

I belong to a lodge under The Grand Lodge Of Texas. The other day I met a PH Mason who just moved here from Florida. He hasn't affiliated with any lodge here in Texas yet, and I know that both grand lodges recognize each other as regular and inter visitation is permitted after certain permission is granted, but can I speak masonically with him outside of lodge? Of course I don't want to violate my obligation and I don't want to cause this brother to do the same...so assuming he belongs to a recognized PH lodge in Florida and is in good standing, am I able to discuss differences in ritual, learn from him how PH does things in Florida, and have esoteric discussions?


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## JB93 (Aug 28, 2016)

Yea.. Im sure you could if both are recognized


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## Bloke (Aug 29, 2016)

Philos said:


> Hopefully a well informed brother can help me out.
> 
> I belong to a lodge under The Grand Lodge Of Texas. The other day I met a PH Mason who just moved here from Florida. He hasn't affiliated with any lodge here in Texas yet, and I know that both grand lodges recognize each other as regular and inter visitation is permitted after certain permission is granted, but can I speak masonically with him outside of lodge? Of course I don't want to violate my obligation and I don't want to cause this brother to do the same...so assuming he belongs to a recognized PH lodge in Florida and is in good standing, am I able to discuss differences in ritual, learn from him how PH does things in Florida, and have esoteric discussions?



If your both regular Freemasons (you are) why wouldn't you ?


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## MarkR (Aug 29, 2016)

Probably not, until he affiliates with a PHA Texas lodge.  Most states don't recognize Florida PHA (Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge,) because they don't have amity with their "mainstream" GL, and usually a state Grand Lodge will only recognize a PHA Grand Lodge if they have amity in their own state.  Thus, I'd bet that Texas doesn't recognize the Union Grand Lodge, and visitation would NOT be permitted, nor would Masonic communication.

Tread carefully; check with your DDGM or whatever similar office you have.


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## Bloke (Aug 29, 2016)

MarkR said:


> Probably not, until he affiliates with a PHA Texas lodge.  Most states don't recognize Florida PHA (Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge,) because they don't have amity with their "mainstream" GL, and usually a state Grand Lodge will only recognize a PHA Grand Lodge if they have amity in their own state.  Thus, I'd bet that Texas doesn't recognize the Union Grand Lodge, and visitation would NOT be permitted, nor would Masonic communication.
> 
> Tread carefully; check with your DDGM or whatever similar office you have.


Hmm...what he said...


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 29, 2016)

Also until u sit in lodge with him u dont know for sure that he is a mason

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## Warrior1256 (Aug 29, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Also until u sit in lodge with him u dont know for sure that he is a mason
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Yeah, this is the kicker.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Aug 29, 2016)

Why do you brothers say this, I can't recall in my obligation where it states I will only know for sure a man is a mason if I sit in Lodge with him. Maybe it's a jurisdictional thing.


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## Joseph Thornton (Aug 29, 2016)

Interesting thing SORT OF on topic.

I was walking home and listening to my EA degree proficiency on my phone. A coworker stopped me just to chat and asked, what I was listening to? Sooooo I either had to tell him it was Freemason memorization OR lie to him. So I chose not to lie.

He then started in with lots of questions about FM. I answered as best I could without revealing anything and being so new to FM I am sure the answers I gave left a lot of information out. Since he continued on in so much interest I told him the story of how I approached the lodge on my own before a meeting and introduced myself to strangers. If he was really interested he could accompany me to a pre-lodge dinner and I would introduce him tot he lodge members, and he could see for himself what type of men they are.

The twist is, he is black. I did also give him the little info I knew about PH FM. Also knowing that some states have "issues" I double checked with my own EA degree coaches and as far as they are concerned there is no issue here at our lodge and should be no issue in our state. The only exception is, one of them was under the assumption that if a black man wants to join a Blue Lodge in this state, he'd need to request a waiver from the PH lodge. The assumption was also indicated that it should be a small formality with no issues to do so. For instance he lives on the west side of town, the PH lodge is on the east side. So the drive is less than convenient when there are multiple Blue Lodges closer than the PH Lodge is.

I am intrigued and puzzled by the PH variations that continue to arise.

The first mason I ever spoke to about becoming a mason was in fact a PH mason from that lodge on the far side of town. We were working at the same factory together at the time. I was impressed y this gentleman and would have been willing to petition his PH lodge, but I wanted to plug into my own community where I live. This was all before I knew there were any differences for PH lodges and in some states, "issues".


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## Dontrell Stroman (Aug 29, 2016)

I'm confused. In your state, a black man must first receive a waiver from the PH GL in order to petition your GL ? If this is not the case , please elaborate. Thanks

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## Joseph Thornton (Aug 29, 2016)

I was only repeating the assumption that was stated from my coaches.

That being that if a black man wants to join a Blue Lodge he needs to get a waiver from the PH lodge. And doing so was implied to be simple and easy. As I am so new and easily confused, I understood this to be a PH procedure, like a courtesy, not a Blue Lodge issue. Just like the fact that PH lodges really arent even needed anymore. But PH Masons continue to seperate out of honor for the PH tradition by their own choice. (again states vary)

These men I spoke with indicated that they were personally involved in the process of insuring that the state GL does recognize the state PH lodge. And to the next step also insuring that PH masons are welcome in our lodge and that we are equally welcome to visit theirs. 

As I said interesting "issues and variations".


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## dfreybur (Aug 29, 2016)

It depends on what you mean by "speak Masonically".

You can act on the square, treat each other as Brothers.  You can crack jokes about the antics of the PMs at lodge (always best when it's a story about me).  You can show each other your dues cards.  You can attend any event of each other's lodge that is open to the public.  Most especially you can encourage him to petition for membership in either branch of our Texas family.

What you should not do at this point is the details that we do to get past the tiler to attend lodge.  Because MS PH Union GL of FL does not yet have local recognition with GL of FL that's still something to wait on.


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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

Philos said:


> Hopefully a well informed brother can help me out.
> 
> I belong to a lodge under The Grand Lodge Of Texas. The other day I met a PH Mason who just moved here from Florida. He hasn't affiliated with any lodge here in Texas yet, and I know that both grand lodges recognize each other as regular and inter visitation is permitted after certain permission is granted, but can I speak masonically with him outside of lodge? Of course I don't want to violate my obligation and I don't want to cause this brother to do the same...so assuming he belongs to a recognized PH lodge in Florida and is in good standing, am I able to discuss differences in ritual, learn from him how PH does things in Florida, and have esoteric discussions?



No, the Grand Lodge of Texas does not recognize the PHA grand lodge in Florida. They are not recognized by the UGLE either unfortunately. We also recognize the PHA grand lodge in Maryland. Don't assume any others. Hopefully, we do blanket recognition in the future and recognize every PHA grand lodge that is recognized by its state grand lodge.

If he demits and becomes a member of the MWPHGLTX, then we do recognize them and we are in full amity.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Aug 29, 2016)

Again, I'm still missing something. Why does a "black man" need to get permission from a PH GL to join a state GL. It's almost like saying if your black you have to a a PH mason, and if you don't want to then you need a wavier to be something else. Please don't take offense as this is not directed at you, I just don't understand the logic.


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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> I was only repeating the assumption that was stated from my coaches.
> 
> That being that if a black man wants to join a Blue Lodge he needs to get a waiver from the PH lodge. And doing so was implied to be simple and easy. As I am so new and easily confused, I understood this to be a PH procedure, like a courtesy, not a Blue Lodge issue. Just like the fact that PH lodges really arent even needed anymore. But PH Masons continue to seperate out of honor for the PH tradition by their own choice. (again states vary)
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, you are incorrect. There are 9 states that don't even recognize the PHA grand lodge in their state. Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Tennessee, West Virginia, South Carolina, Louisiana, & Arkansas.


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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Again, I'm still missing something. Why does a "black man" need to get permission from a PH GL to join a state GL. It's almost like saying if your black you have to a a PH mason, and if you don't want to then you need a wavier to be something else. Please don't take offense as this is not directed at you, I just don't understand the logic.



He doesn't really know what he is talking about. Not even sure if he is a Master Mason according to his signature.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Aug 29, 2016)

I believe he is still an EA. I didn't even know he joined the craft, until today.


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## Joseph Thornton (Aug 29, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Again, I'm still missing something. Why does a "black man" need to get permission from a PH GL to join a state GL. It's almost like saying if your black you have to a a PH mason, and if you don't want to then you need a wavier to be something else. Please don't take offense as this is not directed at you, I just don't understand the logic.



Actually I didnt mention GLs at all. PH or Blue GLs.


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## Joseph Thornton (Aug 29, 2016)

MRichard said:


> Unfortunately, you are incorrect. There are 9 states that don't even recognize the PHA grand lodge in their state. Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Tennessee, West Virginia, South Carolina, Louisiana, & Arkansas.



Actually what I said was completely correct for the context of the coaches that said it. The conversation was never about those states, but relation to our own state, and actually our own Blue Lodge specifically.


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## Joseph Thornton (Aug 29, 2016)

MRichard said:


> He doesn't really know what he is talking about. Not even sure if he is a Master Mason according to his signature.



I made it clear I am new, I made it clear I don't REALLY know. I made it clear I was repeating a conversation I was directly involved in.

This response was rude. Now I need to be MM before I am allowed to chat about conversations I actually had?


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## Joseph Thornton (Aug 29, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I believe he is still an EA. I didn't even know he joined the craft, until today.



Yeah I'm EA. (see MM comment above) How does this matter? Some of the conversations here are very interesting, and some are really frustrating.


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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> Yeah I'm EA. (see MM comment above) How does this matter? Some of the conversations here are very interesting, and some are really frustrating.



It matters cause your progress can be stopped at any time. Go ask those coaches about that.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 29, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> What you should not do at this point is the details that we do to get past the tiler to attend lodge. Because MS PH Union GL of FL does not yet have local recognition with GL of FL that's still something to wait on.


Right, this is what I was refering to. If a man represents himself as a Freemason to me we can discuss our lodges, meeting times, etc. But nothing "Masonic" as defined by your post.


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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> Actually I didnt mention GLs at all. PH or Blue GLs.



Actually you did, you said a Black man needs a waiver from the PH lodge.


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 29, 2016)

Yall need to chillax homies.  Joseph was just commenting on what he was told pertains to his GL and only what that one brother who told him "believes" needs to happen for a black man to petition a StateGL.  That brother is more then likely incorrect or is refering to if a PH mason wants to join the StateGL.  Dont jump all over these new brothers for misspeaking.  We need to whisper wise council

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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Yall need to chillax homies.  Joseph was just commenting on what he was told pertains to his GL and only what that one brother who told him "believes" needs to happen for a black man to petition a StateGL.  That brother is more then likely incorrect or is refering to if a PH mason wants to join the StateGL.  Dont jump all over these new brothers for misspeaking.  We need to whisper wise council
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



Wrong. He is an EA and he is repeating information that is incorrect, then he wants to get an attitude.


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 29, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Why do you brothers say this, I can't recall in my obligation where it states I will only know for sure a man is a mason if I sit in Lodge with him. Maybe it's a jurisdictional thing.


Your obligation doesnt say anything about sharing secrets unless you know him to be or someone has vouched for him to be?  Showing a dues card doesnt prove anything.  Making past the tyler and sitting in lodge with that man does, or someone you have sat in lodge with tell you they have sat in lodge with that man does.  That is THE only way to be sure.

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## Warrior1256 (Aug 29, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> Now I need to be MM before I am allowed to chat about conversations I actually had?


Not at all Brother. You're free to post here on any subject you want as an EA. I certainly did. From your post you were simply repeating a conversation that you were part of.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 29, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Showing a dues card doesnt prove anything. Making past the tyler and sitting in lodge with that man does, or someone you have sat in lodge with tell you they have sat in lodge with that man does. That is THE only way to be sure.


Totally agree!


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 29, 2016)

MRichard said:


> Actually you did, you said a Black man needs a waiver from the PH lodge.


He didnt mention which one though.  And he didnt get an attitude till the attitude was given to him.  As i said we need to whisper wise counsil not turn our noses up as we feel as MM we are beter then an EA.....

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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> He didnt mention which one though.  And he didnt get an attitude till the attitude was given to him.  As i said we need to whisper wise counsil not turn our noses up as we feel as MM we are beter then an EA.....
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



It doesn't matter which one. A Black man doesn't need a wavier from a PH lodge. I tell him the same as I tell any other EA or FC that does the same. Actually, he did give attitude first. I merely pointed out what he was saying was incorrect and it was. Go talk to him about the whispering part.


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## Joseph Thornton (Aug 29, 2016)

I didnt have an attitude, and still don't. I'm sorry if you can't detect tone in my text. (that was honesty, not sarcasm)

I simply pointed out your statements as rude and frustrating. If you really can "stop my progress" for that, then I maybe I don't need to be a Mason. If the lodge brothers would take your word for it over a blown up over reaction situation then I accept their judgement since they are supposed to know me.

Now I'm sorry that thought there was something positive the gain from the topic at all. You brothers can see I post here less and less often. I havent even logged on here in weeks.

jmads, and Warrior, thank you for the benefit of the doubt.


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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> I didnt have an attitude, and still don't. I'm sorry if you can't detect tone in my text. (that was honesty, not sarcasm)
> 
> I simply pointed out your statements as rude and frustrating. If you really can "stop my progress" for that, then I maybe I don't need to be a Mason. If the lodge brothers would take your word for it over a blown up over reaction situation then I accept their judgement since they are supposed to know me.
> 
> ...



I never said I was going to stop your progress. You asked a question and were given an answer. There would be no need to take my word for anything. The thread speaks for itself. In most jurisdictions, it can be for any reason; not sure about yours.

You will either learn to subdue your passions or not. That's on you. My statements seem rude cause you haven't learned enough to see the truth in them.


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## Joseph Thornton (Aug 29, 2016)

Thank you for your advice.

I will consider your point and hope you are not too much of an MM to reconsider mine.

Have a good day.


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 29, 2016)

Brother Thornton dont worry about your progress being stopped.  You are in a different GL and I can almost guarantee that except for the GM of an outside GL called with a situation such as this theyd get laughed at.  Some people take things posted on here WAY to seriously.  As those of us that have posted on this thread are not members of the GLoColorado or the MWPHGLoCO we cannot speak to what the processes are in CO.  I can only speak to the process in OR and NM.

As for what u posted that a black man needs a waiver that truly does make zero sense as the man hold zero aligience to either branch of the family tree.  You should get clairification on this, is it for new petitioners or Bros who what to change sides.

Now back on topic.....

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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> Thank you for your advice.
> 
> I will consider your point and hope you are not too much of an MM to reconsider mine.
> 
> Have a good day.



You have a good day too. Focus on learning your work from now on like EAS are supposed to.


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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Some people take things posted on here WAY to seriously.



Passing out correct information is taking things too seriously? I guess yall let your EAs & FCs just do whatever they want, right or wrong. Maybe if you had informed him that he was wrong to begin with, he would have let it go. Is that your wise counsel?

Some people care about the craft more than someone's feelings.


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## mrpierce17 (Aug 29, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> I made it clear I am new, I made it clear I don't REALLY know. I made it clear I was repeating a conversation I was directly involved in.
> 
> This response was rude. Now I need to be MM before I am allowed to chat about conversations I actually had?



Remember your new name given to you and why you where giving this name don't take the previous comments personal brother just stay in your study's it will all make sense to you in due time as to why brothers may have responded the way they did something many MM forget is that we to where once EA,s....keep on traveling brother


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 29, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Some people take things posted on here WAY to seriously.


No kidding!


mrpierce17 said:


> something many MM forget is that we to where once EA,s....keep on traveling brother


Agreed.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 29, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> jmads, and Warrior, thank you for the benefit of the doubt.


You're welcome Brother, keep on trucking.


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 29, 2016)

MRichard said:


> Maybe if you had informed him that he was wrong to begin with, he would have let it go. Is that your wise counsel?


I don't know that he was wrong.  Im not a member of either GL in CO so i cant speak on that topic.  I know in OR and NM no waiver is needed.



MRichard said:


> Passing out correct information is taking things too seriously? I guess yall let your EAs & FCs just do whatever they want, right or wrong.



I dont control what my lodges EA and FCs do unless its in the lodge or at a lodge function...and then im not a pedistal officer or the SD so id only step in if they were being blatently disrespectful to someone or were giving a non mason false info that i knew beyond a doubt to be false.  The craft isnt the military and just cause im a MM doesnt make me the no all person.  EAs and FCs arent PVTs that need to be smacked back in line every know and then.

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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I don't know that he was wrong.  Im not a member of either GL in CO so i cant speak on that topic.  I know in OR and NM no waiver is needed.



Have you ever heard of a Black man needing a waiver from a Prince Hall lodge to join a state grand lodge?


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 29, 2016)

Not in NM or OR but then ivr never had the privilege of voting on a black.mans petition.  The the black Masons i know have been masons longer then me

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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Not in NM or OR but then ivr never had the privilege of voting on a black.mans petition.  The the black Masons i know have been masons longer then me
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



Well, you said earlier that it made zero sense. You have definitely covered all bases.


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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I dont control what my lodges EA and FCs do unless its in the lodge or at a lodge function...and then im not a pedistal officer or the SD so id only step in if they were being blatently disrespectful to someone or were giving a non mason false info that i knew beyond a doubt to be false.  The craft isnt the military and just cause im a MM doesnt make me the no all person.



So you won't correct an EA giving false information to other EAs, FCs, or MMs? Hmm, I am starting to get it now.


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 29, 2016)

I see what you did there.  Yes i would stop them from doing that. But only if i knew it to be false.  In this case i dont.
Yes i said it made zero sense but GA banning gay men makes zero sense too but it happened.....

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## Bloke (Aug 29, 2016)

MRichard said:


> You have a good day too. Focus on learning your work from now on like EAS are supposed to.



It's hard to learn when people are not patient enough or willing to teach.


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## Bloke (Aug 29, 2016)

mrpierce17 said:


> Remember your new name given to you and why you where giving this name don't take the previous comments personal brother just stay in your study's it will all make sense to you in due time as to why brothers may have responded the way they did something many MM forget is that we to where once EA,s....keep on traveling brother



Howdi Mr Pierce

Firstly , thanks for your help via private message, it helped my understanding on another topic.

Second, this whole "new name" thing makes no sense to me lol.... that's the challenge of different masonic traditions.

Third, to the Original Poster, i got you were reporting what had been said to you. What's true in one lodge, one jurusdiction, one tradition will vary, but one which holds true is we should be brothers...

A great thing to start your masonic journey with is your own Constitution, more than my WM or GM, i'm answerable Constitutionally: but what trumps the Constituion is my conscience- which fortunately has never conflicted with the Constitution in my Jurisdiction 

Personally; i cant see what a third party (another GL) has to do with me proposing a candidate for Freemasonry in my own Constitution ...


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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

Bloke said:


> It's hard to learn when people are not patient enough or willing to teach.



Or when people are not willing to listen.


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 29, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Howdi Mr Pierce
> 
> Firstly , thanks for your help via private message, it helped my understanding on another topic.
> 
> ...


Think about at the alter the WM tell you to arise Brother B......

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## mrpierce17 (Aug 29, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Think about at the alter the WM tell you to arise Brother B......
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



Anyone in the US knows what I'm talking about brother Bloke is from across them waters they do it a little different than we do as soon as we get a worldwide blanket recognition I'm going to visit his lodge and he better show me some love lol ... It's much simpler here in the states only having a few small variations in ritual and signs you can almost pick FL PHA out when we do our FC penalty  or so I'm told


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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

mrpierce17 said:


> Anyone in the US knows what I'm talking about brother Bloke is from across them waters they do it a little different than we do as soon as we get a worldwide blanket recognition I'm going to visit his lodge and he better show me some love lol ... It's much simpler here in the states only having a few small variations in ritual and signs you can almost pick FL PHA out when we do our FC penalty  or so I'm told



You would be surprised. I see a lot of PHA guys say that and usually no one knows what they are talking about. When I visited a PHA lodge, there were differences. I had to find out the hard way. It was embarrassing.


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## mrpierce17 (Aug 29, 2016)

MRichard said:


> You would be surprised. I see a lot of PHA guys say that and usually no one knows what they are talking about. When I visited a PHA lodge, there were differences. I had to find out the hard way. It was embarrassing.



Nothing to be embarrassed about just do it the way you do in your jurisdiction you are amongst 
PHAmily / Family Sometimes the differences make it all the more beautiful ( vast dimensions ) it's a universal thing U&I  verse each other traveling and seeing how others do it is what it's all about IMO


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## MRichard (Aug 29, 2016)

mrpierce17 said:


> Nothing to be embarrassed about just do it the way you do in your jurisdiction you are amongst
> PHAmily / Family Sometimes the differences make it all the more beautiful ( vast dimensions ) it's a universal thing U&I  verse each other traveling and seeing how others do it is what it's all about IMO



That's not exactly what I am talking about. I will inbox you.


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## mrpierce17 (Aug 29, 2016)

So noted


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 29, 2016)

mrpierce17 said:


> Anyone in the US knows what I'm talking about brother Bloke is from across them waters they do it a little different than we do as soon as we get a worldwide blanket recognition I'm going to visit his lodge and he better show me some love lol ... It's much simpler here in the states only having a few small variations in ritual and signs you can almost pick FL PHA out when we do our FC penalty  or so I'm told


I actually had No idea what was meant the first time i heard/read it.  Had to ask.  In both my jurisdictions the only mention of the candidate being called that is at that moment.  The candidate/brother is never referred to as that again

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## mrpierce17 (Aug 29, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I actually had No idea what was meant the first time i heard/read it.  Had to ask.  In both my jurisdictions the only mention of the candidate being called that is at that moment.  The candidate/brother is never referred to as that again
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



This is the only name you are given in symbolic lodge


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## MarkR (Aug 30, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Again, I'm still missing something. Why does a "black man" need to get permission from a PH GL to join a state GL. It's almost like saying if your black you have to a a PH mason, and if you don't want to then you need a wavier to be something else. Please don't take offense as this is not directed at you, I just don't understand the logic.


Yeah, I doubt sincerely that that is the case.  If a man is unaffiliated, and he seeks to be made a Mason, he can petition either GL of State or PHA GL, as he chooses.



mrpierce17 said:


> Remember your new name given to you and why you where giving this name ...


I think that "new name" thing at EA is a Prince Hall thing.  I had never heard of it until I read it from PH brothers on the internet.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Aug 30, 2016)

Exactly, that's my point. If I know you to be a MM and you vouch for a brother that you know one to be, that is lawful Masonic information.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Aug 30, 2016)

I specifically advised the brother that I was not directing anything towards him. I understand that he is just repeating what he heard. On the flip side, I was hoping the brother could explain why his coach told him this.

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## Ripcord22A (Aug 30, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Exactly, that's my point. If I know you to be a MM and you vouch for a brother that you know one to be, that is lawful Masonic information.


The only way that you know the man that did the vouching to be a mason is by being in lodge with him

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## Warrior1256 (Aug 30, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> The only way that you know the man that did the vouching to be a mason is by being in lodge with him
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Exactly. Bottom line....the only way that you can truly KNOW that any man is a MM is if you have sat in lodge with him. Obviously, if a man you KNOW to be an MM vouches for another that is good enough.


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 30, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> Exactly. Bottom line....the only way that you can truly KNOW that any man is a MM is if you have sat in lodge with him. Obviously, if a man you KNOW to be an MM vouches for another that is good enough.


I don't know what is so hard to understand on this one.  other then vouching and sitting in lodge are there other ways that jurisdictions are teaching to find out if a man is a Mason?  here's how it goes in my jurisdictions:

man shows up at lodge and wants to attend the meeting-man approaches member and declares his intentions, members take him to the WM who assigns an inv committee to try the man-man shows ID and Dues card-lodge Sec verifies that the mans lodge is recognized by us-man takes the Tyler's oath- man is admitted to lodge....here's where NM and OR differ in NM  unless the JD was present for the try of this man he will stop in front of him when he is satisfying himself that all present are of the appropriate degree, at this time one of the bros that was present will VOUCH for him.  In OR the SW stands and observes the lodge to satisfy himself that all are of the appropriate degree, if he wasn't there for trying of this man then someone would have to VOUCH for him.
It was the same when a group of us visited another jurisdiction, our JGW who had sat in this particular lodge had to vouch for the 20ish of us that their JD didn't know.


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## mrpierce17 (Aug 30, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I don't know what is so hard to understand on this one.  other then vouching and sitting in lodge are there other ways that jurisdictions are teaching to find out if a man is a Mason?  here's how it goes in my jurisdictions:
> 
> man shows up at lodge and wants to attend the meeting-man approaches member and declares his intentions, members take him to the WM who assigns an inv committee to try the man-man shows ID and Dues card-lodge Sec verifies that the mans lodge is recognized by us-man takes the Tyler's oath- man is admitted to lodge....here's where NM and OR differ in NM  unless the JD was present for the try of this man he will stop in front of him when he is satisfying himself that all present are of the appropriate degree, at this time one of the bros that was present will VOUCH for him.  In OR the SW stands and observes the lodge to satisfy himself that all are of the appropriate degree, if he wasn't there for trying of this man then someone would have to VOUCH for him.
> It was the same when a group of us visited another jurisdiction, our JGW who had sat in this particular lodge had to vouch for the 20ish of us that their JD didn't know.



Pretty much the way it works here


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 30, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> man shows up at lodge and wants to attend the meeting-man approaches member and declares his intentions, members take him to the WM who assigns an inv committee to try the man-man shows ID and Dues card-lodge Sec verifies that the mans lodge is recognized by us-man takes the Tyler's oath- man is admitted to lodge.


The only difference here is that after the Tyler's oath the visitor will be asked a few questions that he should know from his obligations. Some lodges will then further test his knowledge by asking him to "do" a certain thing.


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## Bloke (Aug 30, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I don't know what is so hard to understand on this one.  other then vouching and sitting in lodge are there other ways that jurisdictions are teaching to find out if a man is a Mason?  here's how it goes in my jurisdictions:
> 
> man shows up at lodge and wants to attend the meeting-man approaches member and declares his intentions, members take him to the WM who assigns an inv committee to try the man-man shows ID and Dues card-lodge Sec verifies that the mans lodge is recognized by us-man takes the Tyler's oath- man is admitted to lodge....here's where NM and OR differ in NM  unless the JD was present for the try of this man he will stop in front of him when he is satisfying himself that all present are of the appropriate degree, at this time one of the bros that was present will VOUCH for him.  In OR the SW stands and observes the lodge to satisfy himself that all are of the appropriate degree, if he wasn't there for trying of this man then someone would have to VOUCH for him.
> It was the same when a group of us visited another jurisdiction, our JGW who had sat in this particular lodge had to vouch for the 20ish of us that their JD didn't know.



LOL.... um, not how  it works here... probably because we just dont have the irregular and clandestine lodges you have.

For example, a PM from New Zealand appeared last meeting. He had paperwork and was expected. Alone, I took him into the kitchen at lodge, he had a sealed travel letter saying his dues were current and that he was a PM.... i tested him as an EA, then FC, then asked how he proved himself a MM, he passed.... then i just asked him if he was  a PM, he said he was, so i vouched for him. He was also the uncle of our  WMEs partner, he'd never been tested, i'd asked before i started.

Senario 2, a bro from Grand Orient of Brazil turned up with paper work and current dues card. The "orient" concerned me, so i did not test him because i thought his GL was irregular:  i copied his travel letter etc and emailed GL. .They later confirmed we were in Amity, so later i tested him (whacky different signs) yet admitted him on basis of paperwork and my GL.

Another senario, a UGLE unknown bro turns up... i palm him off to the tyler to test... or if the tyler had not turned up, i would ask the JW if he felt comfortable testing him (its his responsibility ), if not, i would test then vouch for him.

Yet another, a guy is at my house. Says he's a mason from another jurisdiction i know are regular. The conversation drifts to places of a tyled meeting. I feel comfortable with him, so i check the blinds r shut, door locked, and i test him.

Indeed, here, i would say YOU DO NOT find out if a bro is a Mason in lodge, but before...... we dont go around the room asking for proof, we do it outside before the meeting commences... unknown brothers are often admitted during the meeting at a designated time, but they will have already been tested and vouched for...... if they are there at the opening by leave of the wm, he should ask who is vouching for him...

Our approach is different


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 30, 2016)

Bloke said:


> LOL.... um, not how  it works here... probably because we just dont have the irregular and clandestine lodges you have.
> 
> For example, a PM from New Zealand appeared last meeting. He had paperwork and was expected. Alone, I took him into the kitchen at lodge, he had a sealed travel letter saying his dues were current and that he was a PM.... i tested him as an EA, then FC, then asked how he proved himself a MM, he passed.... then i just asked him if he was  a PM, he said he was, so i vouched for him. He was also the uncle of our  WMEs partner, he'd never been tested, i'd asked before i started.
> 
> ...



Its pretty much the same, again the same but different!


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## Bloke (Aug 30, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Its pretty much the same, again the same but different!


That seems the pattern JD....


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## Dontrell Stroman (Aug 30, 2016)

No it's not the same. You stated that the only way to really know a man to be a mason is by sitting in Lodge with him. Scenario 4 disputes this argument.


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 30, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> No it's not the same. You stated that the only way to really know a man to be a mason is by sitting in Lodge with him. Scenario 4 disputes this argument.


I was refering to his final paragraph

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


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## Blake Bowden (Aug 31, 2016)

Philos said:


> Hopefully a well informed brother can help me out.
> 
> I belong to a lodge under The Grand Lodge Of Texas. The other day I met a PH Mason who just moved here from Florida. He hasn't affiliated with any lodge here in Texas yet, and I know that both grand lodges recognize each other as regular and inter visitation is permitted after certain permission is granted, but can I speak masonically with him outside of lodge?



No.

To the other Brothers, please stay on topic or create a new one. Play nice..


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## Dontrell Stroman (Aug 31, 2016)

I guess it's a jurisdictional teaching. Nothing too serious.


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## MasonicAdept (Sep 3, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> The twist is, he is black. I did also give him the little info I knew about PH FM. Also knowing that some states have "issues" I double checked with my own EA degree coaches and as far as they are concerned there is no issue here at our lodge and should be no issue in our state.



@Joseph Thornton, are "issues" pertaining to him being BLACK and petitioning a predominantly white Lodge? in Colorado?





> The only exception is, one of them was under the assumption that if a black man wants to join a Blue Lodge in this state, he'd need to request a waiver from the PH lodge. The assumption was also indicated that it should be a small formality with no issues to do so. For instance he lives on the west side of town, the PH lodge is on the east side. So the drive is less than convenient when there are multiple Blue Lodges closer than the PH Lodge is.



I hope that this "assumption" was cleared up. Because I would think this to be a strange practice.


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## MasonicAdept (Sep 3, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Again, I'm still missing something. Why does a "black man" need to get permission from a PH GL to join a state GL. It's almost like saying if your black you have to a a PH mason, and if you don't want to then you need a wavier to be something else. Please don't take offense as this is not directed at you, I just don't understand the logic.



I concur...


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