# Conduct unbecoming of Masons



## Onewhoseeks (Mar 18, 2013)

Hello Brothers,
I am a recently passed FC. I have been lurking on this sight for a few months now. I think your communication here about masonry is excellent. Because of the great information here it gave me the final push to become a mason. I thank all of you that participate in this forum for your insights. 

Now to the issue at hand. I am online with two other FC's. Just recently we were notified via email that our line has been suspended until further notice. Their was no explanation given as to why except that "there is confusion that will not permit any further advancement in masonry." This is a shock to me. I have never been made aware that there were any issues AT ALL. There has been much confusion and a lack of communication within the lodge because of how they have chosen to communicate to the brethren  which is via general emails to everyone. They are not always very nice or positive. I nor my line mates were notified of anything issues. I have had absolutely no contact with the SW or JW since being online. My communication with the WM has been sporadic via text messages and email. We have attended 3 lodge meetings and never a negative word at the meetings.

My question is, what recourse do myself and my line mates have regarding a unilateral suspension? I have paid all my fees and dues upfront and now this. I would not believe that with the obligation and the ideas set forth by masonry that the conduct of the officers of this lodge would be allowed to go without some form of recourse. The way this has been  handled is totally unprofessional and shoddy at best. If any one has some input it would be greatly appreciated.


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## crono782 (Mar 18, 2013)

Hmm bizarre indeed.
There is a lot in your post that sounds... off. What do you mean when you say "your line" and "online with two other FCs" and "no contact...since being online"? Being notified BY EMAIL that you are being suspended sounds very fishy. Why has your only communication with your WM been via text? Am I daydreaming or is this some sort of "online lodge", hah? (EDIT: well, you did say that you've attended meetings, why are the officers so unavailable?) What lodge are you a part of (you can PM me that if you'd like)? You are correct, this all sounds off and wrong and no brother deserves to be treated with disrespect or kept in the dark like that.


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## jvarnell (Mar 18, 2013)

What has your coach mentor said while learning the work? When you are working on the work at the lodge what was said to you.  We have stuff every monday and Thursday with our mintors when we are woring on the work.  I am not sure what you are saying about a line.


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## bupton52 (Mar 18, 2013)

crono782 said:


> Hmm bizarre indeed.
> There is a lot in your post that sounds... off. What do you mean when you say "your line" and "online with two other FCs" and "no contact...since being online"?



We actually refer to groups of men going through the degrees as a class. Other than that though, I agree with Brother Crono782, something isn't right.


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## Onewhoseeks (Mar 18, 2013)

I apologize for not using the correct terminology. I am still trying to learn on my own. At this point my fellow FC's have had no mentor or any help from the officers. Part of it is because most of them are recently raised themselves. We (The FC's) have studied on our own to learn the material. We have been allowed to attend meetings by having them lowered to our degree. When I say line, I mean the brothers that are going through the initiation process together.


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## RHS (Mar 18, 2013)

That sounds..... Weird.......


RHS

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## crono782 (Mar 18, 2013)

Ok, I get your terminology I guess. Several issues sound very distressing; the lack of members either fluent in the work or willing to teach, the lodge communication lines, and blatant disregard for mentoring new members just to name a few. Besides those glaring issues, the topic at hand of you being suspended for unknown reasons; your location would help greatly (even if just your jurisdiction). To be suspended means that some form of masonic violation should have occurred, but you should have the right to rebut these charges if so.

EDIT: @Onewhoseeks: I got your PM.


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## jvarnell (Mar 18, 2013)

I don't see how you can do anything without a mentor or mentor's. None of the degrees have self study that I know of.  Is this lodge in Texas?


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## JJones (Mar 18, 2013)

You've been learning by self study?

I'm very curious what jurisdiction you're in, there are a number of things you mention that don't sound like anything I've seen here in Texas.


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## cog41 (Mar 18, 2013)

It all sounds quite unusual.
Ill ask again, "what is your grand lodge jurisdiction, and what is the name of your lodge?"
How and from whom did you learn the EA work?

we would like to help but there needs to be some clarification on your part.


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## crono782 (Mar 18, 2013)

He wished to keep the name of the lodge off the public forum. Suffice it to say it is indeed a regular PHA lodge in TX.


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## crono782 (Mar 18, 2013)

Given that information then, aside from the bad practices mentioned, the issue of suspension...
Someone who is familiar w/ MWPHGLoTX constitution ought to chime in here, but a suspension requires a masonic offense or non-payment of dues or like, correct? Also he should have some recourse via his GL if such is the case?


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## Onewhoseeks (Mar 18, 2013)

Jvarnell and Cog41, the Jurisdiction is in Texas, let's just say the Dallas area. I don't want to name the lodge in public. The lodge is PHA and regular. It is not my intention to sling mud. I simply want to know if I have recourse. I understand if you are unable to help with my general information. 

I did not  have any EA work. After becoming an EA I was given a pamphlet to study the EA lecture and the same for the FC lecture. NO ONE other than myself has mentored or aided me in my study to learn the lecture or anything else regarding masonry. I honestly have no idea what EA or FC work would be at this point. The extent of my study has been the pamphlets and what I have gleaned on the web. 

It may be that the WM has complete authority and autonomy. If that's so, then I have no recourse. I do know that the circumstances are highly unusual from my study of masonry before I joined. My intention was to be raised and be a leader in the lodge for those who came next. That's won't happen now. Live and learn.


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## crono782 (Mar 18, 2013)

Don't fret too much. I feel as though this situation after being fully investigated, a correct route will open up and you will be able to continue your masonic journey in the correct manner.


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## jvarnell (Mar 18, 2013)

I will help you if I can I had a bumpy road thourgh the last leg of my jurney and know what its like.  When you turned in your potistion do you know if they voted?  and you actuly had the initattion?


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## Onewhoseeks (Mar 18, 2013)

JVarnell, As far as I know they just did whatever the WM told them. So I don't know if there was a vote or not.


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## Benjamin Baxter (Mar 18, 2013)

This doesn't sound regular to me. I am sorry for your issues.


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## Onewhoseeks (Mar 18, 2013)

Gentlemen I appreciate the support. This is not what I had in mind when I decided to become a mason. Some had mentioned before about the offenses that one could be suspended for. Is this written down anywhere that I can research it?

One of the other FC's suspended, have today, attempted to call the WM, the SW and JW and not one of them have answered the phone. He has tried two different times. I asked in a reply to the email what the offense was, there  has yet to be a response from any of the senior officers of the lodge.


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## crono782 (Mar 18, 2013)

So no reason at all was given other than an email saying you were suspended, correct?
I'm not sure how proper it is to seek counsel from a neighboring lodge. Any input from others on this?


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## bupton52 (Mar 18, 2013)

crono782 said:


> So no reason at all was given other than an email saying you were suspended, correct?
> I'm not sure how proper it is to seek counsel from a neighboring lodge. Any input from others on this?



I think that by involving a lodge with the business of another would be a breach of proper Masonic protocol. Perhaps a call to the DDGM would prove beneficial. 


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## jvarnell (Mar 18, 2013)

I beleive bupton 52is right.  But I would try to find out if the lodge you patitioned it clandestine. 
I


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## Onewhoseeks (Mar 18, 2013)

Daniel I am posting the email and the responses below:

SW: As of Sunday, March 17 2013 your line is herby suspended until further notice. Take due notice thereof and govern your selves accordingly.
Me: SW, What does a suspension mean? Why the suspension?
SW:  it means there is confusion amongst your line that will not permit any further advancement in masonry at this time and to stand by. Take due notice there of and govern yourself accordingly. 
Me: SW, With all due respect, I would like to inquire as to the confusion you have stated. I personally was not made aware of any confusion that would warrant such an action.

That is the communication in its entirety and unedited. This is the first and only communication with the SW outside of being passed and the lodge meetings. As stated before, I have yet to receive a response from my inquiry from the WM or anyone. 
What is the confusion? What does standby mean? How long? Will there be resolution? Will they return phone calls? 
The questions are rhetorical.

One question I would like answered is what can the DDGM do in this case?


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## bupton52 (Mar 18, 2013)

jvarnell said:


> I beleive bupton 52is right.  But I would try to find out if the lodge you patitioned it clandestine.
> I



That lodge is not a clandestine lodge. 


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## bupton52 (Mar 18, 2013)

Onewhoseeks said:


> One question I would like answered is what can the DDGM do in this case?[/FONT]


 
Much like on a job, you must go up the chain of command. Check with the WM because he governs the lodge. The DDGM looks after the lodges under his area. 



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## Onewhoseeks (Mar 18, 2013)

Bupton52, thanks. I am sure what the SW warden is doing is  on behalf of the WM. WM is giving the orders so he is not an option. WM and all officers were cc'ed in the email. WM nor any of them have responded. I will go to the DDGM.


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## jvarnell (Mar 18, 2013)

bupton52 said:


> That lodge is not a clandestine lodge.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Premium App


I did not really think that but it was the only thing I could think of  for him to check.  I alway want new people to have no problem and was searching for answers just as he was.


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## crono782 (Mar 18, 2013)

I know of the lodge in question and it is not clandestine. Even if you see the WM cc'd, you should inquire to him next anyway. It would be regretful for you to approach the DDGM only to have him ask if you've broached the topic to the WM and you say no. Chain of command is usually firm if only for protocols sake. 


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## Dude (Mar 18, 2013)

Onewhoseeks,
   I would say, if you are indeed a Brother FC, be patient, if there are others in your "line" then the problem may not lay with you, it May be another.  Remember to give the Officers time to work out the situation before you panic. In the meantime remember your working tools, and conduct yourself accordingly. 

1love
-Bro. M-


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## Onewhoseeks (Mar 19, 2013)

Daniel and Byron your advice here is sound. I  have reached out to the WM.


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## Robert G (Mar 19, 2013)

Entered in error.


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## Ashlar76 (Mar 19, 2013)

Onewhoseeks said:


> Daniel and Byron your advice here is sound. I  have reached out to the WM.



Smart move FC, smart move. I pray for the best outcome for your situation.


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## Raymond Walters (Mar 19, 2013)

Wth??? I am just smh after reading this thread!!!


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## Michael Neumann (Mar 20, 2013)

The lodge you are part of seems new or poorly run. Using emailed copies of ritual that are not to be written, if anyone remembers their obligation, suspending the entire "line" because of confusion, and then failing to reply with a valid response when asked why?

From what I understand the lodge here moves candidates through in classes as well, they are successful as a class and fail as a class... something I disagree with. I will not have my success hindered by another's failure, it appears you have been hindered by another's failure. Masonry is about building the man and through the man building the group... it is not about building the group and through that building the man. Buildings are built ONE stone at a time... not by dumping a bunch of stones in a pile and then shaping them into a building.


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## tomasball (Mar 20, 2013)

All sounds very strange to my ears, but I'll decline to judge the practices and traditions of another jurisdiction, particularly after only hearing one side of a story.  I observe that this grand lodge raised 82 men at one time at their last meeting.


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## DJGurkins (Mar 20, 2013)

So different from my lodge Floresvile #515 all the Brothers are so welcoming and helpful.


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## Roy Vance (Mar 21, 2013)

To OneWhoSeeks; I agree with crono782 on the line, that, as long as you have committed no offense, not become delinquent in your dues/fees, or otherwise broken a Masonic law, there should be some sort of recourse. You may be able to contact the MWPHGLoTX and ask their advice. As I am not a PHA Mason, I do not even know where the PHA Grand Lodge is located. But, you might try that if you are sincere in you journey toward the light. If this has in any way helped, I will be happy. Good Luck Brother!


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## Bro. David F. Hill (Mar 22, 2013)

Sometimes the issue is not with the candidates and the lack of response from the officers gives me the impression that this is the case (saving face by not fessing up making to a mistake).  I have an idea what lodge it is and if I am right, they are all new.  Everyone is learning on the run and they may have made an error (such as doing the work by email).  They may be the ones receiving the guidance about how to conduct candidates properly and therefore the class was put on hold.  Ideally, each candidate gets a degree guide that they study on their own but they also come together to discuss it in candidate degree study halls and hopefully by getting together with each other outside of the lodge.


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## Wayne Simpson (Mar 29, 2013)

Error on my part and unable to delete post, only modify. Thus it has been modified, leaving only this..


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## Bill Lins (Mar 29, 2013)

PH021211 said:


> Ideally, each candidate gets a degree guide that they study on their own



Could you explain a bit more about the "degree guide"? Is it like a code book?


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## cog41 (Mar 29, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Could you explain a bit more about the "degree guide"? Is it like a code book?





I'd like to know that as well.

It all still sounds a bit confusing.


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## Bro. David F. Hill (Mar 31, 2013)

It is a small booklet that contains the first degree lecture (Q&A including Obligation).  Used by the candidate for study (committing it to memory) as they will have to prove proficiency by answering the questions and repeating the obligation.


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## Bro. David F. Hill (Mar 31, 2013)

In some PH jurisdictions the handbook is not coded and in others it is.  In Texas PH Masonry it is not therefore no codebook exists.


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## Bro. David F. Hill (Mar 31, 2013)

cog41 said:


> I'd like to know that as well.
> 
> It all still sounds a bit confusing.



In some PH jurisdictions the handbook is not coded and in others it is.   In Texas PH Masonry it is not therefore no codebook exists.  It is a small booklet that contains the first degree lecture and the candidate must memorize it.  It will be what they will be quizzed on to prove proficiency.


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## Benjamin Baxter (Mar 31, 2013)

Is it only the first degree? Or is all the work written?


Glen Rose # 525
Granbury # 392


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## Bro. David F. Hill (Mar 31, 2013)

Only the first degree.  If they successfully prove proficiency then they receive the FC booklet.


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## Bill Lins (Mar 31, 2013)

In other words PHA is not "mouth to ear"?


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## Bro. David F. Hill (Apr 1, 2013)

I give up!!!   Seems that some ears are plugged and I am tired of trying to explain.


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## bupton52 (Apr 1, 2013)

PH021211 said:


> I give up!!!   Seems that some ears are plugged and I am tired of trying to explain.



Bro. Bill is asking that because with the GLoTX everything is mouth to ear. There are no books or pamphlets at all. I don't even think that they can be in possession of a ritual. 


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## Bro. David F. Hill (Apr 1, 2013)

They need to read post number 43.  It explains that this is not the norm for all of PH.


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## Michael Hatley (Apr 1, 2013)

I think most of us understand that this particular lodge may be going through some challenges not normal for a Texas PH lodge.  

It may be a separate matter, however, for some of us who favor visitation with PH to find out that in Texas - at least some of the ritual work for PH is provided in clear, written form to candidates after initiation and through the degree process.  It is something to be discussed in perhaps a different thread, where it doesn't confuse the issue that this fellow is having with broader political things.


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## Bill Lins (Apr 1, 2013)

PH021211 said:


> They need to read post number 43.  It explains that this is not the norm for all of PH.



No, but post 43, if I am reading it correctly, states that IS the norm for Texas PHA. I am not stating that your obedience is deficient in that regard, I am just extremely surprised since GLoT places such importance upon "mouth to ear" that, until recently, even "coded" rituals were illegal. We may now possess them, but Master Masons only and NEVER on Lodge property or in the presence of candidates. Apparently, the EA degree ritual and obligation must be quite a bit different also, as the concept of "mouth to ear" is very important in both in ours.


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## dfreybur (Apr 1, 2013)

Onewhoseeks said:


> Daniel I am posting the email and the responses below:
> 
> SW: As of Sunday, March 17 2013 your line is herby suspended until further notice. Take due notice thereof and govern your selves accordingly.
> Me: SW, What does a suspension mean? Why the suspension?
> ...



Brother Onewhoseeks,

The terminology in the message you quoted is jumbled but there is meaning in it.  "Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence".  Let's take a step back and shift from thinking something is wrong by way of action to thinking something is broken by way of incapacity and see where that line of thought leads -

Suspension - Is for brothers who have failed to pay dues, clearly not correct usage.  Here it must have its outside meaning of being put on hold.

Line - The line is the list of officers not a group of candidates, clearly not correct usage.  You have mentioned that it means your class, group or cohort.

Confusion - In a Masonic context this means failing to work *for lack of direction*.  IF it is used correctly here.  The rest of the message makes that dubious but let's go with it anyways.  This part matches the rest of your story very well.  It says one or more members of your group are not doing any work for lack of direction.  You have mentioned there is no direction from your mentors because there are no mentors assigned.  You've been doing your best to study out of the guide so it's one of the others in the group.

Until further notice - You're on hold not in any punishment status.  This makes sense taking the word confusion as I just described.

If your lodge can't pull off a mentor it could easily be they can't pull off a degree.  I figure that means they need new members or the lodge will fail and at this point they are floundering.  Maybe even in denial.

I have two suggestions based on this line of reasoning -

1) Go to the next meeting and see if they admit you.  If they let you in the door then you are not Suspended and the SW used the word incorrectly.

2) Ask to be separated from your group and to have your degree put on the calendar.  Ask them if the lodge is currently able to pull together a degree team to be able to do that and that you're okay with waiting several months if that's what it takes.

I hope my take on this is correct and you're not in a mess here other than a communication mess.  I do think this is what happened.

Patience!  If the lodge is having trouble pulling together a degree team you're more needed than you know.


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## dfreybur (Apr 1, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> No, but post 43, if I am reading it correctly, states that IS the norm for Texas PHA. I am not stating that your obedience is deficient in that regard, I am just extremely surprised since GLoT places such importance upon "mouth to ear" that, until recently, even "coded" rituals were illegal.



Do not let lack of instruction on this topic cause confusion that interferes with helping our new brother.

Different jurisdictions, different rules on books.  I am currently a member in California and Illinois.  In California the non-monitorial ritual is available in a cipher book that has been printed by the Grand Secretary's office at least a decade before I took my degrees in 1993.  I was issued a blue book the day I was raised.  In Illinois the entire spoken ritual is printed out word for word except for underlines in place of the modes of recognition.  The current version is from 1986 but there was a previous authorized version at least as far back as 1913.  I was issued a blue book the day I was appointed to a chair.

There exist mouth to ear jurisdictions.  When you're a member of one it can be easy to think that all jurisdictions are mouth to ear.  That has not been true for longer than anyone in the world has been alive.  Authorized books go back a very long time in some jurisdictions.  Just another detail of difference jurisdiction to jurisdiction.


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## Bill Lins (Apr 1, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> I was issued a blue book the day I was raised.  <snip>  I was issued a blue book the day I was appointed to a chair.



As I read the syntax you have used, I take it to mean that you had no access to printed ritual until after you became a Master Mason. Is this so, and, if so, did you receive your EA & FC instruction by mouth to ear or by some other method?

I wouldn't be too concerned regarding our young Brother and his difficulty. It can only be solved by our PHA Brethren and, at that, behind the scenes only- not by way of this forum.


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## dfreybur (Apr 2, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> As I read the syntax you have used, I take it to mean that you had no access to printed ritual until after you became a Master Mason. Is this so, and, if so, did you receive your EA & FC instruction by mouth to ear or by some other method?



Bro Bill,

I used the word "issued" because in both lodges I proceeded immediately into appointed pro-tem chairs and entered the line.  In both lodges non-officers may purchase a GL printed blue book while officers are issued one.  As you suggest the blue book is only for MMs as it contains the ritual with varying degrees of change to reflect varying ideas of what the secret parts are.

California answer as of 2001 when I moved out - As I progressed through my degrees I was given a small cipher containing the proficiency for EA/FC, assigned a mentor and we worked through it in person.  Once raised there was no need of a separate booklet for the third proficiency as they all appear in that blue book.

Illinois answer as of a 2013 when I moved out - As one of the lodge's posters I got copies of the candidate booklets that contain the short form catechisms and also the poster booklets that contain the long form catechisms.  The catechisms are under active development in Illinois.  I recently trashed my booklets from the version current until 2012.

Length - The Illinois long form is the length I learned in California for EA/FC, shorter than what I learned for MM.  The California only form and the Illinois long form for EA are very close to what I heard in Texas lodge a few weeks ago as section one.

So Texas is one of the few remaining mouth to ear states.  Texas allows dual/plural affiliations, right?  So I'll soon end up a member in a lodge at all 3 common levels of secrecy.  And yet another list of synonym verbs to memorize in the EA proficiency!  I've already begun learning the local ritual ...


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## Bill Lins (Apr 2, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> allows dual/plural affiliations, right?



We do _as long as _the jurisdiction you are currently under allows the same. 

To me, the value of "mouth to ear" lies in the bond forged between instructor & student. A good instructor, such as the Brother who taught me my catechism, taught me much more than just the words & their meanings- he taught me the true meaning of "Brotherhood"- something for which I will always hold him in the highest esteem. You just can't get that out of a book. :sad:


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## jwhoff (Apr 3, 2013)

Agreed Brother Bill!  The bond is life-long and can be considered one of the greatest wages of a master mason.

There is so much more to the meanings behind the esoteric work than one could possibly learn with a book or from a brother who does not take the time to explore with the candidate the meanings behind the meanings.  One is blessed to have a brother willing to take the time and explain masonry along the way.


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## dfreybur (Apr 3, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> To me, the value of "mouth to ear" lies in the bond forged between instructor & student. A good instructor, such as the Brother who taught me my catechism, taught me much more than just the words & their meanings- he taught me the true meaning of "Brotherhood"- something for which I will always hold him in the highest esteem. You just can't get that out of a book. :sad:



If mouth to ear only means with no book then what drives it is the presence of the mentor not the absence of the book.  I did my proficiencies with my mentor using a cipher book.  I guess I'll call it cheek to cheek instead of mouth to ear.  Being taught what the words mean and more about Masonry than the degrees helped instill in me a lifelong love of our gentle craft.



> We do _as long as _the jurisdiction you are currently under allows the same.



Quoting out of order because it's a change of topic - Does the Texas Prince Hall GL allow multiple affiliations?  If they require a brother to demit from his previous lodge to affiliate they do not allow multiple affiliations.  I know the Texas George Washington GL allows multiple affiliation because when I pulled out dues cards from two states some of the investigating brothers showed me their dues cards from multiple states.


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## Bill Lins (Apr 3, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> If mouth to ear only means with no book then what drives it is the presence of the mentor not the absence of the book.



I can't truly agree with that. The fact that a Brother cared enough about the Work to memorize it greatly impressed me. I seriously doubt I would have found it as important except for the example my instructor set for me.



dfreybur said:


> Does the Texas Prince Hall GL allow multiple affiliations?  If they require a brother to demit from his previous lodge to affiliate they do not allow multiple affiliations.  I know the Texas George Washington GL allows multiple affiliation because when I pulled out dues cards from two states some of the investigating brothers showed me their dues cards from multiple states.



Bro. Upton or Bro. Jones could give you an accurate answer to that- our List of Lodges Masonic contains no information regarding PHA Texas. What is the "Texas George Washington GL"? I've never heard of it & couldn't find anything regarding an organization of that name on Google.


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## towerbuilder7 (Apr 3, 2013)

GOOD EVENING BRETHREN-----Let's start with the question Bro Cog41 raised-----What Lodge are you involved with, and which Grand Lodge is the Lodge subordinate to?   THIS will tell me a lot about what happened and WHY............GET ME THAT INFORMATION, AND I WILL DO WHAT I CAN TO ASSIST YOU..................CLUE----IF YOU ARE IN TEXAS, AND THIS LODGE IS* NOT *AFFILIATED WITH THE PRINCE HALL GRAND LODGE OF TEXAS IN FORT WORTH, TX., OR THE GRAND LODGE OF TEXAS, AF&AM, IN WACO, TX., YOU HAVE A PROBLEM..................

BOTH OF OUR GRAND BODIES HAVE SYSTEMS OF CHECKS AND BALANCES IN WHICH THIS TYPW OF BEHAVIOR AMONG MASONS WOULD BE SUBJECT TO SOME FORM OF DISCIPLINARY ACTION.....HOWEVER, IF YOU HAVE JOINED A LODGE NOT AFFILIATED WITH EITHER OF THESE TWO GRAND BODIES, PERHAPS IT IS TIME TO MAKE SOME DIFFERRENT CHOICES AFTER DOING YOUR RESEARCH...............



BRO. VINCENT C. JONES, SR. , BAYOU CITY LODGE #228, PHA
PRINCE HALL AFFILIATED, FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONRY
MOST WORSHIPFUL PRINCE HALL GRAND LODGE OF TEXAS


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## bupton52 (Apr 3, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Bro. Upton or Bro. Jones could give you an accurate answer to that- our List of Lodges Masonic contains no information regarding PHA Texas. What is the "Texas George Washington GL"? I've never heard of it & couldn't find anything regarding an organization of that name on Google.



As far as I know, the MWPHGLoTX does not allow dual membership. A demit is required. I have heard of "Mainstream" GLs referred to as George Washington GLs before. In this instance, I would assume that he is talking about the GLoTX.


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## Bill Lins (Apr 3, 2013)

bupton52 said:


> I have heard of "Mainstream" GLs referred to as George Washington GLs before.



That's a new one on me- I thought we might have a new bogus GL to contend with. :52:


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## towerbuilder7 (Apr 4, 2013)

Young Brother, I would call on you to handle this situation by following the wise counsel of my District Brother Byron Upton, and also to look within YOURSELF while enduring this ordeal.   The issue may not lie with YOU, however, since you are being adversely affected, I can offer some First Degree advice off line.    As one Brother stated above, there may perhaps be some issue of which you are unaware, and* patience *along with *diplomacy* is always the order of the day.   I don't have the feeling that they would have given you the vote if they did not want you to become Brothers.   And, in regard to your teaching/learning of information,  some Lodges differ on how the information is taught.   

Ultimately, it is YOUR responsibility to ingest what is issued to you, and commit it to memory.  Books and websites that you may have bought and read don't determine how you are taught---YOUR LODGE DOES.  This is a marathon, not a sprint, Brother........ If your sponsor is an active brother in this Lodge, then I would most definitely seek his advice/guidance on the matter.   Your sponsor is the one who should be supporting you through this journey.   I want to reserve judgment on the Brothers in the Lodge until you have gathered *all of the facts*, but please keep one thing in mind-----*THE CRAFT POSSESSES MANY BEAUTIFUL TRUTHS, LESSONS, AND SYMBOLIC APPLICATIONS-----HOWEVER, MEN ARE IMPERFECT, SO WE MUST PLACE OUR TRUST IN THE GRAND ARCHITECT OF THE UNIVERSE.

*Please reach out to your DDGM, if more than one attempt to your WM is unsuccessful.   This is not your end of the road.  We will all hold out hope that there is a plausible and *HARMONIOUS* solution to this issue.  If either I or Bro Upton can be of assistance to you, please contact either one of us via Private Message.   *From THIS point until you receive more information, I would also refrain from putting ANY FURTHER INFORMATION regarding this issue on this Forum, until you have given your WM and DDGM the respect of an opportunity to handle your issue.   *I understand you were seeking guidance, but there was a word that you should have been taught which alludes to HOW YOU ARE TO HANDLE COMMUNICATION WITH OTHERS OUTSIDE OF YOUR LODGE at this point in your journey.  

And, putting your Lodge business on a public Forum wasn't the most prudent manner or way to handle a sensitive issue such as this----you are trying to become a BROTHER OF THIS LODGE.   I am not chastising you; I just want to impress upon you the importance of what you are getting yourself into----this is a BROTHERHOOD, however flawed some of its members may be, there are still protocols and courtesies which should be extended BOTH WAYS.   YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO QUESTION, BUT YOU MUST BE CAREFUL AS TO HOW AND TO WHOM YOU DIRECT THAT INQUISITION.

Please advise us on any progress or result as you receive word......................CONTINUE TO SEEK LIGHT, and please take my advice and any criticism levelled here as CONSTRUCTIVE......I WISH YOU NOTHING BUT THE BEST IN YOUR ENDEAVOR TO BECOME MY BROTHER...............SO MOTE IT BE

BRO. VINCENT C. JONES, SR., BAYOU CITY LODGE #228, PHA
PRINCE HALL AFFILIATION, FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONS, DISTRICT 15-A, HOUSTON, TEXAS
MOST WORSHIPFUL PRINCE HALL GRAND LODGE OF TEXAS


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## towerbuilder7 (Apr 4, 2013)

And, to add a bit of clarity to the question of the study pamphlets used in Texas PHA Lodges----they are simply STUDY AIDS.   NO RITUAL, just Q&A lecture, and the OB of said Degree.   You could liken it to Cliff Notes, almost.   It must ALL be committed to memory in OUR Lodge prior to passing or raising; NO exceptions.   And, if proficiency is not met, one could be left behind.   One has his sponsor, his classmates, and any other Brother who chooses to volunter his time in th effort to assist in teaching the information properly.   You only get what is NECESSARY at certain points of your journey.   We give you what we want you to have at that point, and as you progress, you get more..........hope that helped add some understanding...........and Bro Hatley has a good idea.......if Intervisitation is on the horizon, then at some point, there will need to be some protocols discussed as to how books are used.  I would think that no one Grand Body would try to impose anything on the other that couldnt be agreed upon, with HARMONY being the most important concern.


BRO JONES


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## Michael Hatley (Apr 4, 2013)

My concern is that pretty well all the fellas I know are such strong adherents to the mouth to ear bit for the Q&A that it would move them on the visitation issue if it came to it.  I find that it rubbed off on me, and its one of the pillars of Freemasonry the way I was taught it.  That bond I built with my brothers who taught me the work got me through the trying times, and it wound up being the magic that gave me a core of men at lodge that I felt really were my brothers, to the bone.  If I had to point to one single thing that I'd not take away from a candidate, after the ob, its that time learning qa mouth to ear.

And on the other hand, if I could pick one single thing to change it would be to have visitation.  So I find myself terribly torn.   I really wish that the respective GLs would both chime in on where they stand, and actively, and transparently work towards a resolution. 

Started a thread in SS, if this is distracting here - wherever.


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## crono782 (Apr 4, 2013)

I agree.


Freemason Connect Mobile


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## dfreybur (Apr 4, 2013)

bupton52 said:


> As far as I know, the MWPHGLoTX does not allow dual membership. A demit is required.



Thanks for this clarification Bro Byron.  I am a Past Master life member of my mother lodge in California, a Past Master life member of my lodge in Illinois and an honorary member of another lodge in Illinois.  I have no intention to ever demit from any of them.  This choice on my part means I will not affiliate with a lodge in a jurisdiction without dual membership.  At some point I'll petition for affiliation in one or more Texas lodges in the regular GL that does allow dual affiliations of that sort.  Incidentally one of the reasons I interviewed for jobs in Texas is I had checked in advance that Texas allows dual affiliation so I would be able to affiliate after relocating here.  After checking one jurisdiction I didn't think to check the other until we were already residents.

As I am currently not a Texas Mason in either of the regular GLs I can follow the California and Illinois rules and present myself to visit any lodge that will accept me in either recognized jurisdiction.  I have done exactly that in at least 1 lodge in each jurisdiction so far.  I understand that once I petition for affiliation I will only be able to attend non-tiled events sponsored by lodges in the other GL so I'm getting my visits in and building my friendships now.  It makes me in no great hurry to affiliate.

There is the question of whether a lodge will accept me.  There are two paths to take.  PHA Texas to PHA California to GWA California.  All recognition including visitation thus let me in.  PHA Texas to GWA Texas to GWA California.  The step between the two recognized Texas GLs does not include visitation thus don't let me in.  It's up to the brethren which path to select.  Let's just say there's a certain amount of magic in presenting my California dues card, putting on the California name badge from my PM apron briefcase, asking to take the Test/Tyler's Oath and walking from the Secretary's table to the south to chat with the brothers.  Having attended a PHA meeting before I knew to put on my apron as a part of the opening not before the opening.  "You do know this is a Prince Hall lodge, right?"  "Certainly.  I'm a California Mason not a Texas Mason and our recognition rules include visitation".  "How did you find us?"  "I looked you up on the Internet."  Call it peer pressure if you like but it worked to get the brethren to chose the path of recognition that does allow visitation.


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## dfreybur (Apr 4, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> What is the "Texas George Washington GL"? I've never heard of it & couldn't find anything regarding an organization of that name on Google.



I first used the term going on 20 years ago when I first heard the word "mainstream" applied to one regular GL but not the other.  The term has no standing of any sort.  I have no idea if I was the first to use the term but I'm not the only brother I've encountered to use it.

All of the recognized (and to my limited knowledge the ones in states without recognition as well) PHA GLs trace their lineage to the premier GL of the world before the 1813 unification of the Antients and Moderns into the UGLE.  Withholding the word "mainstream" from them is thus in contradiction with the facts of Masonic history and I will not participate in using it.  Also withholding the word "mainstream" from them is an insult of omission and I will not participate in using it.

Prince Hall was a brother who set the example and tone of his entire Masonic lineage.  He worked undaunted in the face of societal oppression and he is an example worthy of all emulation.

Who is a person of parallel example in the other set of regular GLs?  The criteria would be Americans who were approximately contemporary with Prince Hall.  There is one name that stands out.  He invented the American Doctrine of Exclusive Jurisdiction establishing that each state GL is sovereign when he turned down the Grand Mastership of a national GL.  He said "He who governs least governs best".  George Washington is far an away the most obvious as we all in both sets of GLs follow his doctrine.

Thus I chose to use "George Washington Affiliation" and I decline to use the word "mainstream" for one set of GLs not the other.  There is no expectation that anyone other than myself make this decision.  I pray that it will gradually pervade.


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## dfreybur (Apr 4, 2013)

bupton52 said:


> I have heard of "Mainstream" GLs referred to as George Washington GLs before.



A further advantage having come from jurisdictions that have had visitation for years - Scottish Rite degree teams do visits among valleys as well.  I've been to a reunion that had degrees from 3 SR jurisdictions.  I have seen the PHA Scottish Rite degree that depicts brothers Prince Hall and George Washington meeting in person.  It further reenforces my decision to use the term GWA.  So far it's the only PHA Scottish Rite degree on my passport.

At that reunion some of the brethren were more interested in the SJ degree that was presented.  I pulled out my beat up old SJ passport that showed I'd seen it at my first reunion when I became an SR mason.  :laugh:



> In this instance, I would assume that he is talking about the GLoTX.



One of the two recognized GLs.  Yes.  I just posted why I decline to use other terminology.


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## bupton52 (Apr 4, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> A further advantage having come from jurisdictions that have had visitation for years - Scottish Rite degree teams do visits among valleys as well.  I've been to a reunion that had degrees from 3 SR jurisdictions.  I have seen the PHA Scottish Rite degree that depicts brothers Prince Hall and George Washington meeting in person.  It further reenforces my decision to use the term GWA.  So far it's the only PHA Scottish Rite degree on my passport.
> 
> At that reunion some of the brethren were more interested in the SJ degree that was presented.  I pulled out my beat up old SJ passport that showed I'd seen it at my first reunion when I became an SR mason.  :laugh:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the explanation!


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## crono782 (Apr 4, 2013)

Sorry, but I dislike tacking on "GWA" to non-PHA lodges personally. I also dislike the term "mainstream" too. Anything not "mainstream", in my opinion, denotes clandestine. PHA is also mainstream. I see your logic and it's actually quite clever, but still I don't like the notion of my GL being denoted with a new name (George Washington Affiliated) that isn't correct (nomenclature-wise) just the same as I also don't like PHA being denoted as not "mainstream" which isn't correct. GLo* and MWPHGLo* should be sufficient. In conversation, I say it should just be denoted as PH and non-PH flavors of masonry. Granted this would be a non-issue if there was just ONE masonry, but gotta start small somewhere. I get it, it's all semantics, but the wedge-driving needs to get better, not worse. Just my .02


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## Michael Hatley (Apr 4, 2013)

Thats roughly my take too.  I like the creativity of avoiding "mainstream", a word I don't like.  But yeah, I wouldn't actually use "GW" or the like or follow suit personally with that particular naming convention.

I wish there was no division at all.  I wish I could snap my fingers and bam, 50 years ago some brilliant men game together against all the odds and merged the two Grand Lodges and they had moved forward hand in hand and gave us that legacy to be proud of.

But wish in one hand.....

I can only hope some brilliant men come along to do it, I'll gladly do the cookin - because God knows I don't see how to get it done myself.


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## tomasball (Apr 4, 2013)

I suppose that instead of "mainstream," at least on this continent, you could refer to a grand lodge as participating in the CGMNA.


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## dfreybur (Apr 5, 2013)

crono782 said:


> Sorry, but I dislike tacking on "GWA" to non-PHA lodges personally.



The good thing about my suggestion having zero standing of any sort is it does not matter if anyone agrees or disagrees with it.  It brings the issue to mind and I'm happy that any brother thinks it over agreement or not.  So thanks for disagreeing with me!



> Granted this would be a non-issue if there was just ONE masonry, but gotta start small somewhere.



Discussion of unification is happening among the brothers in states where visitation has been in place for years.  I doubt any motions of unification will come to any GL floor for a long time.  I would be astonished if any such motion passed and doubly astonished if any such motion were ratified by the other GL in any state.  We have a model for unification from when the Antients and Moderns unified.  The fact that we have a model for unification does not make unification the thing to do.  Our GLs have traditions older than our country.  Unification would erode those traditions.

How about an unusual take on unification - The PH lodges I've visited and been visited by have been more active on average than the lodges of my jurisdictions.  In Masonry numbers count for budget but level of activity has always trumped budget.  Should any unification happen over time the influence of the more active PH brothers would tend to dominate.  It could happen that they subsume us in spite of the difference in numbers.  Not that I think any GL is going to accept a unification offer.

I definitely don't think any GL will accept an consolidation offer.  I don't recommend even offering that.  I've been through consolidations with one lodge absorbing another, from both directions even.


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## crono782 (Apr 5, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> The good thing about my suggestion having zero standing of any sort is it does not matter if anyone agrees or disagrees with it. It brings the issue to mind and I'm happy that any brother thinks it over agreement or not. So thanks for disagreeing with me!



Any publicity is good publicity, I say.



> I definitely don't think any GL will accept an consolidation offer. I don't recommend even offering that. I've been through consolidations with one lodge absorbing another, from both directions even.



Yeah, I was just wishful thinking that our forefathers would've had better foresight.


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## Bill Lins (Apr 5, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> We have a model for unification from when the Antients and Moderns unified.



Actually, that was a _re_unification- the Antients split off from the original GL & rejoined later on. They had a common history, which American GLs & PHA GLs do not have. I don't believe UGLE is that valid a model. I doubt there would be much support for unification, except for GLs that are failing financially. Personally, I'd like to see full recognition with all privileges, especially intervisitation, but not unification- each GL has a long & proud history & heritage which needs to be maintained & preserved.


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## Onewhoseeks (Jun 3, 2013)

I wanted to give an update to the forum on the progress of my issue written on in my first post. Mainly for the gentlemen that reached out to me with aid on how to work through the issue I had with being suspended from my lodge. This is June 3, 2013 and absolutely nothing has been done since the first day I wrote in this forum. I got one call from the DDGM asking me not to air out the business in this forum and to give him a chance to resolve this issue. I have not had any contact or phone call from him since that day. I am extremely disappointed in how this has been handled in the Dallas area. I will no longer pursue masonry. I have very little respect for how the men in the Dallas area have conducted themselves in this matter. To all of you in this forum that attempted to assist me and not even knowing me, I am grateful and impressed with how you wanted to help a brother in distress. You are what my ideal of masons should be not how them men in the Dallas area have conducted themselves. Thank you and I wish you gentlemen well. 
Sincerely
Reginald Martin


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## Roy Vance (Jun 4, 2013)

Onewhoseeks said:


> I wanted to give an update to the forum on the progress of my issue written on in my first post. Mainly for the gentlemen that reached out to me with aid on how to work through the issue I had with being suspended from my lodge. This is June 3, 2013 and absolutely nothing has been done since the first day I wrote in this forum. I got one call from the DDGM asking me not to air out the business in this forum and to give him a chance to resolve this issue. I have not had any contact or phone call from him since that day. I am extremely disappointed in how this has been handled in the Dallas area. I will no longer pursue masonry. I have very little respect for how the men in the Dallas area have conducted themselves in this matter. To all of you in this forum that attempted to assist me and not even knowing me, I am grateful and impressed with how you wanted to help a brother in distress. You are what my ideal of masons should be not how them men in the Dallas area have conducted themselves. Thank you and I wish you gentlemen well.
> Sincerely
> Reginald Martin



Brother Martin, please do not leave Masnory. There is surely another way for you to find the light you seek. There are other Lodges in the Metroplex. Ft. Worth is in a different Masonic district, I believe, and there are plenty of Lodges over that way. There a some of the Brothers on this forum that are from Lodges in that area. One of them is Brother *crono782.* Please converse with them. We would hate to lose you because of the actions of some of the others. Please think about what I say. S&F.


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## pecolaman (Jun 7, 2013)

Onewhoseeks, disreguard


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## bupton52 (Jun 7, 2013)

pecolaman said:


> Onewhoseeks, you were ask several times the name of your lodge or grand lodge would you please adhere to the question as it is not a secret.



He has refrained from stating the name of his lodge and grand lodge so as to not cause embarrassment to either of them.


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## pecolaman (Jun 7, 2013)

I just went back and reread some of the earlier post and was going to do a edit to my post. Thank you Bro Upton


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## Rifleman1776 (May 4, 2014)

What state are you in?


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## Glenn D (Aug 1, 2019)

Conduct unbecoming? In Northern Illinois, short of being convicted of a felony or not paying dues, it seems like anything goes.  Broken contract, taking money for degree work and then never providing an Intender and pocketing the money.  All correspondence to the Grand Lodge ignored.  Being an idiot I gave it another shot.  My two favorites are the following.  The worshipful master bragging about aggravated assault with a firearm because someone cut him off.  That’s 20 years in prison here.  Guy belongs behind bars.  That’s how innocent people get killed.  No consequences of any kind from the Lodge.  And most recently the newly installed Deacon solicited my wife to come to a drunken kegger under the guise of a Church fundraiser. When I mentioned these instances to my Intender his reply was, “Masonry isn’t for everyone.”  My father-in-law is a Sovereign Grand Inspector General overseas.  Apparently Masonry is very different abroad.  I have gone from being a raving fan to an enemy of masonry here in Illinois.  Someone said there is some Grand District Deputy or something.  But really if the Lodge voted for corrupt leadership, what other option is there but to quit and join some other group like the Knights if Columbus.  Apparently there is no conduct unbecoming a mason here in Illinois short of a felony conviction.


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## David612 (Aug 1, 2019)

Glenn D said:


> Conduct unbecoming? In Northern Illinois, short of being convicted of a felony or not paying dues, it seems like anything goes.  Broken contract, taking money for degree work and then never providing an Intender and pocketing the money.  All correspondence to the Grand Lodge ignored.  Being an idiot I gave it another shot.  My two favorites are the following.  The worshipful master bragging about aggravated assault with a firearm because someone cut him off.  That’s 20 years in prison here.  Guy belongs behind bars.  That’s how innocent people get killed.  No consequences of any kind from the Lodge.  And most recently the newly installed Deacon solicited my wife to come to a drunken kegger under the guise of a Church fundraiser. When I mentioned these instances to my Intender his reply was, “Masonry isn’t for everyone.”  My father-in-law is a Sovereign Grand Inspector General overseas.  Apparently Masonry is very different abroad.  I have gone from being a raving fan to an enemy of masonry here in Illinois.  Someone said there is some Grand District Deputy or something.  But really if the Lodge voted for corrupt leadership, what other option is there but to quit and join some other group like the Knights if Columbus.  Apparently there is no conduct unbecoming a mason here in Illinois short of a felony conviction.


So have you raised the concerns and tried to do something or..?


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## Winter (Aug 1, 2019)

Glenn D said:


> Conduct unbecoming? In Northern Illinois, short of being convicted of a felony or not paying dues, it seems like anything goes.  Broken contract, taking money for degree work and then never providing an Intender and pocketing the money.  All correspondence to the Grand Lodge ignored.  Being an idiot I gave it another shot.  My two favorites are the following.  The worshipful master bragging about aggravated assault with a firearm because someone cut him off.  That’s 20 years in prison here.  Guy belongs behind bars.  That’s how innocent people get killed.  No consequences of any kind from the Lodge.  And most recently the newly installed Deacon solicited my wife to come to a drunken kegger under the guise of a Church fundraiser. When I mentioned these instances to my Intender his reply was, “Masonry isn’t for everyone.”  My father-in-law is a Sovereign Grand Inspector General overseas.  Apparently Masonry is very different abroad.  I have gone from being a raving fan to an enemy of masonry here in Illinois.  Someone said there is some Grand District Deputy or something.  But really if the Lodge voted for corrupt leadership, what other option is there but to quit and join some other group like the Knights if Columbus.  Apparently there is no conduct unbecoming a mason here in Illinois short of a felony conviction.


While this post raises many concerns, and if they are true I would absolutely like to see the GLofIL take notice, the solitary drive-by post purporting widespread corruption in Masonry in his area is also concerning. Such shenanigans when they do happen are often outed and corrected swiftly in this age of rapid communication and social media.  I can't see an entire Masonic community being complicit in their silence.  

To Glen D, your accusations should absolutely be sent to the District Deputy there or direct to the GL.  I assure you that if this activity is actually occurring it would be short lived.  

But I am skeptical considering the spate of anti-masons our forum has seen recently.  

Transmitted via R5 astromech using Tapatalk Galactic


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## Glen Cook (Aug 2, 2019)

Glenn D said:


> Conduct unbecoming? In Northern Illinois, short of being convicted of a felony or not paying dues, it seems like anything goes.  Broken contract, taking money for degree work and then never providing an Intender and pocketing the money.  All correspondence to the Grand Lodge ignored.  Being an idiot I gave it another shot.  My two favorites are the following.  The worshipful master bragging about aggravated assault with a firearm because someone cut him off.  That’s 20 years in prison here.  Guy belongs behind bars.  That’s how innocent people get killed.  No consequences of any kind from the Lodge.  And most recently the newly installed Deacon solicited my wife to come to a drunken kegger under the guise of a Church fundraiser. When I mentioned these instances to my Intender his reply was, “Masonry isn’t for everyone.”  My father-in-law is a Sovereign Grand Inspector General overseas.  Apparently Masonry is very different abroad.  I have gone from being a raving fan to an enemy of masonry here in Illinois.  Someone said there is some Grand District Deputy or something.  But really if the Lodge voted for corrupt leadership, what other option is there but to quit and join some other group like the Knights if Columbus.  Apparently there is no conduct unbecoming a mason here in Illinois short of a felony conviction.


May I ask the grand lodge ?


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## Capricornguy (Mar 2, 2020)

I don't know if it was said, but it sounds like your lodge isn't under the GLofTX if you do "self study" work. We are required to have mentors teach us work, and proficiency "tests" to pass to the next degree. Without this you can't be taught unless its a MM.


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## Bloke (Mar 4, 2020)

Glenn D said:


> Conduct unbecoming? In Northern Illinois, short of being convicted of a felony or not paying dues, it seems like anything goes.  Broken contract, taking money for degree work and then never providing an Intender and pocketing the money.  All correspondence to the Grand Lodge ignored.  Being an idiot I gave it another shot.  My two favorites are the following.  The worshipful master bragging about aggravated assault with a firearm because someone cut him off.  That’s 20 years in prison here.  Guy belongs behind bars.  That’s how innocent people get killed.  No consequences of any kind from the Lodge.  And most recently the newly installed Deacon solicited my wife to come to a drunken kegger under the guise of a Church fundraiser. When I mentioned these instances to my Intender his reply was, “Masonry isn’t for everyone.”  My father-in-law is a Sovereign Grand Inspector General overseas.  Apparently Masonry is very different abroad.  I have gone from being a raving fan to an enemy of masonry here in Illinois.  Someone said there is some Grand District Deputy or something.  But really if the Lodge voted for corrupt leadership, what other option is there but to quit and join some other group like the Knights if Columbus.  Apparently there is no conduct unbecoming a mason here in Illinois short of a felony conviction.


I note you speak of "Chicago Lodge" in your profile - which Grand Lodge is this ?


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