# Order of Malta



## zouzoum (Mar 23, 2016)

Do freemasons join the order of malta ?


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## Bloke (Mar 23, 2016)

Yes, I know a Brother here in Melbourne Australia who is a member. A friend who is a Bro went to Malta and said he saw many masonic symbols on buildings.. an interesting link..


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## zouzoum (Mar 23, 2016)

Ok. As most of us believe that our craft is a continuation of the knight templars order and hospitallers were rivals. This continued even in uk on the 1381 revolt so how can we be on both sides ?


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## Glen Cook (Mar 23, 2016)

zouzoum said:


> Ok. As most of us believe that our craft is a continuation of the knight templars order and hospitallers were rivals. This continued even in uk on the 1381 revolt so how can we be on both sides ?


The Masonic KT are a continuation of the romantic notion of KT; we emulate the 14th C KT.  We are not a literal continuation. 

I know a number of Masons in the Venerable Order of St. John (including me).


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## Bloke (Mar 23, 2016)

zouzoum said:


> Ok. As most of us believe that our craft is a continuation of the knight templars order ...



I do not believe their is a linear continuation - the association is romantic and does not survive scholarly research. I suggest you examine the Ramsay address and its historical merit... which is questionable..

https://scottishrite.org/about/medi...icle/freemasonry-qa-what-was-ramsays-oration/

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/ramsay_biography_oration.html


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## zouzoum (Mar 23, 2016)

Well u know this is a debate in freemasonry ...i am reading born in blood by john robinson and that makes sense for me


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## Bloke (Mar 23, 2016)

zouzoum said:


> ..i am reading born in blood by john robinson and that makes sense for me



Which is exactly why Ramsay was embraced... and folk like Robinson continue to write to the subject. Cognitive Bias is an interesting thing and traps all but a few of us... it got me a whopper in January this year when researching...

I may sound negative, but I encourage you to keep reading and learning


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## Erickson Ybarra (Mar 23, 2016)

zouzoum said:


> Well u know this is a debate in freemasonry ...i am reading born in blood by john robinson and that makes sense for me



It definitely is a debate, but I'm convinced it shouldn't be. Robinson makes some unsubstantiated leaps in Born in Blood to make his connections. I'll admit it definitely appeals to the romantic side of me, but I'm a seeker of truth, My allegiance has to lie with the facts; whichever way they may fall on this argument.


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## hanzosbm (Mar 23, 2016)

John Robinson plays fast and loose with facts.  He leaves out important information that is inconvenient for him and then includes other things with absolutely no basis that back up his claims. 

Now, I'm not saying that there is no evidence for a KT link or that it's completely impossible, but the information that is floating around out there is mostly fabricated or taken completely out of context.  The only thing that Born in Blood is good for is some interesting ideas that then need to be extensively fact checked, after which, only a small fraction hold up.


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## zouzoum (Mar 23, 2016)

Brothers i understand all your point of views and we are seeker of truth and we still searching. However the mystery of rosslyn chapel isnt something we can ignore it shows close links between kt and fm


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## Bloke (Mar 23, 2016)

How ?


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## zouzoum (Mar 23, 2016)

The masonic symbols together with the christian symbols which kt adopted by that time


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## Erickson Ybarra (Mar 23, 2016)

We've hi-jacked this thread...haha.

The supposed masonic symbols I've seen from Rossalyn are so faded that a lot of speculation is required to identify them. The ones I can recall are basically shapes barely raised from the surface of the wall and are not specific to Freemasonry.


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## zouzoum (Mar 23, 2016)

WhT About the apprentice pillar


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## Erickson Ybarra (Mar 23, 2016)

The pillar itself doesn't display any Masonic/Knight Templar context if I remember correctly, but the legend behind the creation of the pillar is obviously very similar to the allegorical story of Hiram. BUT it is, however, a legend, with no real evidence to support it. Also, the general story and allegorical/moral lessons portrayed in the Hiramatic legend are shared by many other legends throughout time.

If anything, the idea of one allegorical story being adopted and re-purposed by another story teller to share the same core truths and value is an interesting way to explain Freemasonry as a whole, in my opinion.


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## hanzosbm (Mar 23, 2016)

I have yet to see a single symbol in Rosslyn that is Masonic nor a symbol that is convincingly KT.  Regarding the Apprentice's Pillar, its similarity to the legend of the 3rd degree is so miniscule that I think it is hardly worth noting.  Furthermore, the story of the Apprentice's Pillar seems to only date back to 1677, several hundred years after it supposedly happened.  And the legend of the 3rd degree as we know it wasn't seen until the Inigo Jones MS in 1755.  If anything, my guess is that this legend of operative medieval stone masons popped up and the speculative masons got word of it and thought 'that's a cool story, let's use that as a basis for one of our stories'.  Even that I think is unlikely.

In short, I've yet to see anything that even comes close to suggesting that Rosslyn was built with any kind of speculative masonry in mind.


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## Classical (Mar 23, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> I have yet to see a single symbol in Rosslyn that is Masonic nor a symbol that is convincingly KT.  Regarding the Apprentice's Pillar, its similarity to the legend of the 3rd degree is so miniscule that I think it is hardly worth noting.  Furthermore, the story of the Apprentice's Pillar seems to only date back to 1677, several hundred years after it supposedly happened.  And the legend of the 3rd degree as we know it wasn't seen until the Inigo Jones MS in 1755.  If anything, my guess is that this legend of operative medieval stone masons popped up and the speculative masons got word of it and thought 'that's a cool story, let's use that as a basis for one of our stories'.  Even that I think is unlikely.
> 
> In short, I've yet to see anything that even comes close to suggesting that Rosslyn was built with any kind of speculative masonry in mind.



Exactly. Like so many convenient myths, it's just a myth.


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## Brother JC (Mar 23, 2016)

I don't have Robinson's book in front if me but I'm pretty sure I remember him stating in the preface that it it was a speculative work of fiction, a possible scenario. I don't believe that at any time did he claim it to be a factual lineage.
As to the original question; there are several groups that have the name "Order of Malta." One of them is part of the Masonic Chivalric Orders in the US. The wearing of its jewel is a uniform requirement in my Commandery.


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## Bloke (Mar 23, 2016)

I agree with Eick, Hanzo and Classical and hold to "I do not believe their is a linear continuation - the association is romantic and does not survive scholarly research."

So far, no one has a hypothesis for the link which survives critical examination. Roslyn is full of symbolism - including the Green Man which some people use to argue it is a Pagan site.  

It's all interesting, but just because it is interesting, does not mean it is true. In this romantic stuff - we need to be critical of the material AND critical of our own evaluation of it. As I said, I fell foul of cognitive bias early this year. Someone sent me a document which completely proved something I am working on... until I started to ask how reliable the document is. Now, I actually think my theory is correct, and I think the document is genuine (It is a legal articles forming an association)  there is historic, newspaper, written text, (un-signed - dam!!!!) legal documents and oral legend to support it - as well as some amazing geographical coincidences... I think I've proved it on the balance of probabilities but not beyond reasonable doubt. Roslyn and its ilk is the same - just because we see something that fits our narrative, and that *we* identify as Masonic does not make it so. For instance, just because early Chinese Philosophers used some of the imagery we do, does not make them speculative Freemasons. http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/symbolism/china_texts.html


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## MarkR (Mar 24, 2016)

zouzoum said:


> Brothers i understand all your point of views and we are seeker of truth and we still searching. However the mystery of rosslyn chapel isnt something we can ignore it shows close links between kt and fm


I suggest that you read The Rosslyn Hoax by Robert L.D. Cooper.


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## Warrior1256 (Apr 2, 2016)

Brother JC said:


> I don't have Robinson's book in front if me but I'm pretty sure I remember him stating in the preface that it it was a speculative work of fiction, a possible scenario. I don't believe that at any time did he claim it to be a factual lineage.


I did find it to be a very entertaining and interesting book.


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## darenjames (Apr 2, 2016)

I am part of the Preceptory and been to Malta also .  I was amazed going through Valletta and seeing the St John cathedral.  My wife was the one pointing out Masonic symbols as we walked through and its must see place if going through York rites path


Bro Daren Janes


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## Glen Cook (Apr 2, 2016)

darenjames said:


> I am part of the Preceptory and been to Malta also .  I was amazed going through Valletta and seeing the St John cathedral.  My wife was the one pointing out Masonic symbols as we walked through and its must see place if going through York rites path
> 
> 
> Bro Daren Janes


I attended their Grand Lodge a number of years ago and the Cathedral, the latter of interest to me as a confrere of the Order of St John. I would recommend to all


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