# U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes



## Blake Bowden

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-mi...ret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794&page=2
:001_unsure:


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## Bill Lins

"It violates the Constitution..." What a big, steaming pile of crap! Who cares? I'd kinda like it if *my* weapon had a Scriptural reference on it- may God steady my aim and let my rounds strike true!


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## RedTemplar

This country is at war, deep in debt, and without decent health care and we are worried about the placement of a few Bible verses.


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## adam

I didn't even realize that my ACOG had a Jesus Code on it until this story came up. Makes me even more proud to own it


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## JTM

RedTemplar said:


> This country is at war, deep in debt, and without decent health care and we are worried about the placement of a few Bible verses.


 this


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## jonesvilletexas

I am so tired of the minority telling the majority what to do, when will me get up off our lazy buts and do what is right. They the minority are leading us down a road of no return. Weak up America before it too late.


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## drapetomaniac

There are a healthy number of Christians who don't like the idea of Jesus' words on a rifle sighting.

I don't think America is going to fall if we pay attention to the fact scriptures on a gun won't be enjoyed by soldiers of a different faith, a target faith - or those civilians who we are supposedly fighting for.  We can survive without the scriptures on guns.


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## jonesvilletexas

This was done by a private company and they should be able to put any number or letter on it they won’t. Without a bunch of jerks trying to run this country. Take a little here and a little there.


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## Blake Bowden

I don't want my tax dollars paying for weapons inscribed with scripture.


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## adam

blake said:


> I don't want my tax dollars paying for weapons inscribed with scripture.


 
With all due respect, brother, these optics have been in use by the armed forces of the United States for many years, and the makers of the Trijicon ACOG have had these codes on them from the very get go. The military approved the optic as it was. The only reason that there is a big fuss is that some anti-christians finally figured the code out. There are no scriptures (words) written on the scope. For instance, on mine the side says "4X32JN8:12" Which stands for 4 power, 32 objective.....John 8:12. It was not something that was written on there to force religion on anyone. The owner of Trijicon is a very religious person and just felt like including his faith on his products without being overbearing about it, thus using code.


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## Hippie19950

It appears Adam is the closest to an actual expert we have here at this time... If he's got the weapon, with the optic, and it has kept him safe, it is FULLY FUNCTIONAL as is. Leave it alone. How many who are talking against this have actually been in a combat situation??? I have been, and welcome the solace this would have brought me, knowing it was traveling with me. The old speech about prayer still being in school, because of the tests is a bit humorous, but I am sure it is true. The one about there is no atheist is a foxhole , is a LOT closer to home, and I never found ANYONE who did not pray while we were taking fire, if they had time to mutter the words. They were usually done out loud. If a foreign country doesn't like our Christianity, let them buy inferior weapons and gear from someplace else. The weapons our troops use, are only on loan anyway, they have to give'em back when they are done, the "oppressed" don't, they wait until we turn around, and shoot us in the back. Stateside, and after my military service, I prayed before, during, and after each shift, as the hazards I was facing were just as great here, and is evidenced by these B.S. desires from those who really have nothing else to do, but to try to erode our faith. A PROUD Viet Nam Veteran, and if ANY of this makes you mad, offends you, and just plain PI**ES you off, scroll on down, and read MY disclaimer AGAIN!!! AS the signature of a good friend of mine says "If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them".

Hippie


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## Blake Bowden

I would bet money the people who support this would be outraged if those same weapons were inscribed with text from the Koran.


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## drapetomaniac

Hippie19950 said:


> AS the signature of a good friend of mine says "If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them".


 
If that means agreeing with any single  troops opinion every time they open their mouth (which is often expected) - then their not exactly "defending our freedom" are they?
I respect our troops and think when they are used, they should be used wisely.  It doesn't mean I have to cow tow to every time they open their mouth.  If that's expected, let's stop pretending they're fighting for me at all. 

The Christians who disagreed are also "experts."   

There also seems to be a consensus that alienating as opposed to recruiting soldiers of other religions is a good policy - but its one which is the reason we have weak security and intelligence in the region.  We're often focused on burning bridges instead of building them.

The  policy makers who believe that the people we are protecting over their and trying to get on our side  are also experts.

Again - let's stop pretending it's "Operation Freedom" if we really don't care about the freedom of those civilians or connecting with them and gaining their support (all which helps our security and our troops on the ground). Every mention of them has been in disgust so far.

Does having mentions of Jesus on our guns "give comfort to the enemy"?  Can it be used for recruiting?  If we can hide pictures of illegal activities from the American people, we can ask a contractor to remove som e letters.


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## drapetomaniac

blake said:


> I would bet money the people who support this would be outraged if those same weapons were inscribed with text from the Koran.


 
Couple of ideas:
"slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out"
"fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem"

Both abbreviated and taken out of context though - like the verses about Christs love on a gun.


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## adam

I do not care what it says on the side of it, as long as it works. These optics were chosen due to their quailty and ruggedness, not because they were made by a Christian. I am sure that if it had verse from the Koran on it, there would be less said about it than the Bible verses. In todays society, it is politically incorrect to be Christian, but whatever you do, do say anything negative about  the muslim faith or you are racist.


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## drapetomaniac

adam said:


> I do not care what it says on the side of it, as long as it works. These optics were chosen due to their quailty and ruggedness, not because they were made by a Christian.



Exactly. They work with or without. 



adam said:


> I am sure that if it had verse from the Koran on it, there would be less said about it than the Bible verses.  In todays society, it is politically incorrect to be Christian.



Seriously?  If there were Koranic versus on the side of a military rifle you can't think of anyone on radio or tv who might mention it? It would go totally unnoticed by every news network?

Every president and person vying for president talks about how very Christian they are. There are a large number of people who think Obama is a Muslim.  




adam said:


> but whatever you do, do say anything negative about  the muslim faith or you are racist.



Anybody  who says something generalizing and negative about a billion people based simply on their race, ethnicity or religion is a bigot - yes.  That pre-judgement and generalization is the definition of bigotry.   That includes negatively generalizing about Christians. Especially if it's based on ignorance, anecdotes and anger.  I've met plenty of anti-Christian bigots.

The Christians who think it's perverted to put scripture on a rifle aren't generalizing about themselves - unless it's to say Jesus is about love and grace.

What are some other things we can put scripture on?  Needles or head straps for executions? Stun guns? What else is a good way to carry the gospel of Jesus?


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## adam

drapetomaniac said:


> Exactly. They work with or without.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?  If there were Koranic versus on the side of a military rifle you can't think of anyone on radio or tv who might mention it? It would go totally unnoticed by every news network?
> 
> Every president and person vying for president talks about how very Christian they are. There are a large number of people who think Obama is a Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody  who says something generalizing and negative about a billion people based simply on their race, ethnicity or religion is a bigot - yes.  That pre-judgement and generalization is the definition of bigotry.   That includes negatively generalizing about Christians. Especially if it's based on ignorance, anecdotes and anger.  I've met plenty of anti-Christian bigots.
> 
> The Christians who think it's perverted to put scripture on a rifle aren't generalizing about themselves - unless it's to say Jesus is about love and grace.
> 
> What are some other things we can put scripture on?  Needles or head straps for executions? Stun guns? What else is a good way to carry the gospel of Jesus?


 

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said that noone would say anything about it. This is all hypothetical. 

The other place you quoted, you implied that I was speaking about the people, however I plainly said the "muslim faith." I don't like the muslim's view of convert them or kill them. Now based on your last post, I am a racist because I just insulted billions of people.

Just some food for thought...
Why does the military put your faith on your dogtags?
You do realize that not everyone is issued the Trijicon ACOG right?
The military is also issued the Aimpoint M4 and the EOTech holographic sights.
Do you think that it is right that the government can make a company redesign their product due to the maker displaying his religion?

PS: I am not trying to start an argument here. I just want to make sure that all the facts are heard, at least that facts that I know.. and am just expressing my opinion. None will be chastised for disagreeing with my opinion, however, I don't like the words I type to be twisted around to make it look like I am saying something else.


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## drapetomaniac

adam said:


> The other place you quoted, you implied that I was speaking about the people, however I plainly said the "muslim faith." I don't like the muslim's view of convert them or kill them. Now based on your last post, I am a racist because I just insulted billions of people.



No,  I would say bigot. Based largely on false information.  Of course, people are force feeding false information.  If it's willingly accepted and other information ignored, for instance, then it's honest to goodness bigotry worked on and preserved.

For instance, the two Koranic verses I cited above are entirely out of context.
http://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/f/terrorism_verse.htm

I would say you're a racist if you were one of the idiots who went around thinking Sikhs or anyone with a turban, muslim name or appearance was Muslim *and* held the false image of Islam you have.   If you look at an Iraqi in America and assume American killing Muslim instead of Iraqi Orthodox Christian refugee (we have quite a few of these in Texas).

Of course, we're sitting hear having a conversation where many are angry our military isn't putting Jesus on the side of weapons (or at least these weapons). 

Here are some common objections against Christianity:
I don't like its acceptance of slavery
I don't like its propagation of apartheid and Jim Crow 
I don't like its praise of genocide
I don't like its support of racism
I don't like the Christian's view of convert them or kill or enslave them (history of the Western hemisphere and Europe)

All bigoted statements, over generalizations - a lot of it based on the suffering of millions of people over generations, based on scripture and explicite statements by denominations and even modern religious leaders who have a high level of support.

All based on the fringe and extreme.

1 billion people aren't trying to kill the rest of the world.  We would kinda notice if 1/6th of the world's population was in constant attack and had been since its inception.  Every statement and action by Muslim leaders are ignored to support the myth - the Koran is ignored.  

Yes, its bigotry to judge every member of a group by its deviant extreme.

Which is why I'm not nervous when I sit with Muslim members of my lodge.



adam said:


> Just some food for thought...
> Why does the military put your faith on your dogtags?



Burial?  Not to cause someone else's..



adam said:


> You do realize that not everyone is issued the Trijicon ACOG right?
> The military is also issued the Aimpoint M4 and the EOTech holographic sights.
> Do you think that it is right that the government can make a company redesign their product due to the maker displaying his religion?



The government is a customer.  The government is not forcing them to change their design for other customers - they are telling them which product they will buy.  You should stil be able to buy one if you want and I honestly imagine if they haven't started creating collector sights, or a side product, for people to buy with scriptures - they are incompetent business folks.

A customer has the right to ask for a product to meet their needs or not buy.  



adam said:


> PS: I am not trying to start an argument here. I just want to make sure that all the facts are heard, at least that facts that I know.. and am just expressing my opinion. None will be chastised for disagreeing with my opinion, however, I don't like the words I type to be twisted around to make it look like I am saying something else.


 
Sorry if I came off harsh.  I get incredulous at the idea Muslims have more pull in this country than Christians.. and especially the idea it would be ignored if Koranic versus were on the side of military rifles.


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## adam

I will admit that I have not read the Koran myself, I can only say what I was taught by my superiors while I was in country. One of the things that they told us was that the religious leaders would bend what the Koran said when teaching their followers to benefit themselves, so it may very well be that it says nothing of killing the infidels. By the way, I am no bigot, I am just ignorant  . I do not descriminate in any way against anyone, until they give me reason to, and then it is only toward that particular person. I have no hatred toward the muslims. You speak of the common objections of Christianity - you do realize who originally wrote the bible, correct? I would like to see where in the bible it said that all those things were ok or encouraged. The military does not bury servicemembers. The remains are sent back to their family and the family buries them. I will agree with your comment that the government is a customer and that Trijicon could just not sell to them anymore, but the US government is one of Trijicon's largest customers, so either way, they will be losing a great deal of money, either from lost sales or the cost of retooling to remove 5 or 6 characters from the optic. I dont think you came off as harsh at all, however, you have twisted what I said once again.....I did not say that a verse from the Koran would be ignored, I said that I don't think that it would cause as much of a stir as the bible verses are. By the way, these verses are not on the side of rifles. It is on the side of the optic (detatchable scope) which does not "have" to be used.


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## Raven

It sounds to me like anyone that has to go find their Bible, (If they own one), and look up jn8:12, they are looking for something to gripe about!
Those opposed to scripture on a publicly consumed product need to stay away from the Edwards Pie Companies,  personality pans, containing some of the best commercially produced Key Lime or Pecan pies anywhere!... Yep, that's right! You will find Scripture right under your nose when you are lickin' the last few graham cracker crumbs and Key Lime filling off the pan!  All I can say is, "If ya don't like it, don't buy it"... I'll have two of them, Thank you very much!
my 2 cents!
Peace & Harmony to all,



adam said:


> With all due respect, brother, these optics have been in use by the armed forces of the United States for many years, and the makers of the Trijicon ACOG have had these codes on them from the very get go. The military approved the optic as it was. The only reason that there is a big fuss is that some anti-christians finally figured the code out. There are no scriptures (words) written on the scope. For instance, on mine the side says "4X32JN8:12" Which stands for 4 power, 32 objective.....John 8:12. It was not something that was written on there to force religion on anyone. The owner of Trijicon is a very religious person and just felt like including his faith on his products without being overbearing about it, thus using code.


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## drapetomaniac

adam said:


> I will admit that I have not read the Koran myself, I can only say what I was taught by my superiors while I was in country. One of the things that they told us was that the religious leaders would bend what the Koran said when teaching their followers to benefit themselves, so it may very well be that it says nothing of killing the infidels.



The religious extremists do.  We had to leave our first church growing up because the pastor started preaching "separation of the tribes" wafter his son took up with a Black woman.  It's scripture based. A scripture based perversion of Christianity and the scripture it came from.  It's a popular one too, and I guarantee there are people who harbor ill will towards "Christianity" because it's "what is taught." 



adam said:


> By the way, I am no bigot, I am just ignorant  . I do not descriminate in any way against anyone, until they give me reason to, and then it is only toward that particular person. I have no hatred toward the muslims.



One day I'll write a book about the bigotries I've held through ignorance or influence. (no, really)



adam said:


> You speak of the common objections of Christianity - you do realize who originally wrote the bible, correct? I would like to see where in the bible it said that all those things were ok or encouraged.



hmmmm...  After my experience at the one church and seeing and few others while watching apartheid fall apart (and becoming aware of the doctrine of the churches there and our own large denominational relationships with them) - I used to have the hobby of being able to explain everything via scripture.

The whole point, of course, is that the argument is a false one.  A purposefully perverted one meant to fulfill a personal desire.

We could start a thread on such scriptures (usually found on atheist FAQs or sites easily, but there are some lesser known ones.  SNakes handlers and such, of course, take one or two scriptures and let them dominate their whole approach to the religion (I suspect we all might to some degree).

Here's a good example: Matthew 24:17

Delivered in a sermon telling women they should where their hair up in buns. That all "top knots come down"



adam said:


> The military does not bury servicemembers. The remains are sent back to their family and the family buries them.



Right - but do Jewish members for instance have their wishes respected for autopsy, etc? I expect chaplains pay attention to them.



adam said:


> I dont think you came off as harsh at all, however, you have twisted what I said once again.....I did not say that a verse from the Koran would be ignored, I said that I don't think that it would cause as much of a stir as the bible verses are.



Two words - Glenn Beck.  Come on. One thing I respect about the right is they have balls and a well oiled media machine.  

We'll be hearing people emphasize "Hussein" in Obama's full name for probably a few more generations.



adam said:


> By the way, these verses are not on the side of rifles. It is on the side of the optic (detatchable scope) which does not "have" to be used.



Right - which actually concerns me more.  Nobody seems to ever point out that all of the scriptures seem to refer to light and sight and vision....... 

The very literal and secular meanings - which is about sight. But the problem is everyone keeps it wholly religious..


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## drapetomaniac

Raven said:


> Those opposed to scripture on a publicly consumed product need to stay away from the Edwards Pie Companies, personality pans, containing some of the best commercially produced Key Lime or Pecan pies anywhere!... Yep, that's right! You will find Scripture right under your nose when you are lickin' the last few graham cracker crumbs and Key Lime filling off the pan! All I can say is, "If ya don't like it, don't buy it"...


 
I'm not sure "publicly consumed" is the objection.  The market will bear it out.

Dr. Bronner's soap is very popular among the lilly livered hippies. And last I saw, it's riddled with good wholesome scripture.  

"He started his business making products by hand in his home. The product labels are crowded with statements of Bronner's philosophy, which he called "All-One-God-Faith" and the "Moral ABCs". Many of Bronner's references came from Jewish and Christian sources, such as the Shema and the Beatitudes; others from poets such as Rudyard Kipling. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Bronner


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## adam

"Right - which actually concerns me more. Nobody seems to ever point out that all of the scriptures seem to refer to light and sight and vision....... 

 The very literal and secular meanings - which is about sight. But the problem is everyone keeps it wholly religious.."

Actually it is my understanding that these verses were chosen due to the nature of the optic. It is a sight that uses fiberoptics to illuminate the reticle, it is a magnified sight which enhances your vision.....or something like that. It is good to see that you looked up the verses for yourself.


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## Hippie19950

Well, I'm off to the furniture store once again folks... Seems Drape has gone and argued the legs off another table and chair... This is getting to be an expensive forum for me to look into. Gonna stop by Half Price Books, and see if I can find something to keep around to put under these things until I can get more furniture.
Hippie...


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## JTM

hah.  he certainly provides good content for these forums.  i wouldn't have it any other way


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## Raven

I want to try some of that "Hippie" soap that was mentioned... How thick of a book do you need, Bro.?  I' got a couple that I've already read. 



Hippie19950 said:


> Well, I'm off to the furniture store once again folks... Seems Drape has gone and argued the legs off another table and chair... This is getting to be an expensive forum for me to look into. Gonna stop by Half Price Books, and see if I can find something to keep around to put under these things until I can get more furniture.
> Hippie...


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## drapetomaniac

Raven said:


> I want to try some of that "Hippie" soap that was mentioned...


 

It'll mess up your drug tests


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## Raven

What drug tests do you speak of, Bro. Drape?



drapetomaniac said:


> It'll mess up your drug tests


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## owls84

All the government needs to do is change the blueprint which I bet has already been done. Where it becomes illegal is in the Terms and Conditions that is on EVERY Government contract which stated THIS type of thing is illegal. As an employee for a government contractor I know first hand that the person responsible can actually do jail time for this. The firestorm that this could cause is so great. You have to remember we are in someone elses country and from a bigger perspective Christianty IS the minority not the other faiths. I agree with Bro. Blake, there is no gain from this and needs to be removed from the optics that my money pays for.


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## JTM

owls84 said:


> All the government needs to do is change the blueprint which I bet has already been done. Where it becomes illegal is in the Terms and Conditions that is on EVERY Government contract which stated THIS type of thing is illegal. As an employee for a government contractor I know first hand that the person responsible can actually do jail time for this. The firestorm that this could cause is so great. You have to remember we are in someone elses country and from a bigger perspective Christianty IS the minority not the other faiths. I agree with Bro. Blake, there is no gain from this and needs to be removed from the optics that my money pays for.


 
+1


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## trey_odom

i have a trijicon rmr. for my home defense shot gun.... it has a scripture on it....  i feel blessed to have it on my weapon that protects my home....  .

if you dont like it..... theres nothing that a dremel, or file cant fix....


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## owls84

If this was a private purchase I would say great. By all means yes but the problem lies in that it was a government contract and it is not supposed to be there.


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## Blake Bowden

owls84 said:


> If this was a private purchase I would say great. By all means yes but the problem lies in that it was a government contract and it is not supposed to be there.


 
+1


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