# One Day Masonic Class/Journey



## Jasko Hodzic

Hi,

My petition got approved and I will be starting my masonic journey with a 1 day class (not at my lodge).
The question I have is, will I miss out on anything by doing the 1 day class rather than traditional way  (1 degree each month)? Did any of you do the 1 day class? How was it?
Also, if I do the 1 day class, I will become Master Mason in that day.
Will it be awkward when I show up at my lodge on the next meeting?
Will they look at me differently?

I would appreciate any advice any one of you can provide to help me on my journey.

Thanks


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## Levelhead

Yes you will miss out on the WHOLE masonic experience. You will learn anything nor be able to answer any questions when examined.

We just talked about this at our monthly round table.

Do it right. No need to rush.

Id straight up laugh at you if you confronted me after the fact.

Knowledge and memory is a strong part of freemasonry. 

Whats the rush? Are you using the blue lodge ad a hallway to an appendant body?


Every single person in your lodge who worked hard and took up to a year yo get raised will look at you with no respect for dedication or hard work.

Guy just shows up and is now a MM. 

I would absolutely give you no respect as a MM.

Your missing out on the whole story, the learning , the knowledge.


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## Zack

Jasko,
I agree with most of the above post except;
I would not laugh at you.
I would not look you as a fool.
I would not *not* give you respect as a MM.

Although I am steadfastly against ODCs except in certain situations  I  know one-day Masons who have been a real credit to the Fraternity.
That being said, I would suggest you not do it.


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## pointwithinacircle2

While I would not have worded my reply as strongly as Levelhead, I agree that his basic conclusion is correct.  Being Initiated, Passed, and Raised are experiences.  While the ceremonies contain knowledge, they are not primarily knowledge.  They are designed to allow your consciousness to take a new form.  I would compare this to forming clay.  You can read a book and gain knowledge about forming clay.  You can learn by watching others form clay.  But this is not the same experience as being the clay.


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## Levelhead

I might have been too straight foward. Sorry. But we just had a debate on this last night at lodge.


I guess im seeing it kinda like sitting down with someone discussing high school then printing out a graduation certificate. Then they go get or try to get the same job you are applying for just cause they have "the certificate" but cant read or write.


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## crono782

Most of the reasoning has been already posted so I won't add to it. Suffice it to say, I am staunchly against one day classes except in the rarest of cases.


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## JJones

I saw this thread shortly after it was posted...I didn't want to be the first poster because I was afraid I'd come on strong...Levelhead did it anyhow though, not that I disagree with most of he said.  I wouldn't laugh at a brother for it...he might not have had any idea it was done any other way when he received his degrees.

Crono has the right idea.  This has been discussed over and over...I'd suggest you do a search on the forums to get a better idea of ODC's.  I'm against them and I've argued my piece on those threads, check them out if you want to see why.


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## RyanC

Let me start by saying I am a new Mason, less than a year. Yes you would miss out on a lot, I learned a lot about myself by the studying degrees and bonding with the Brothers in my lodge while doing so. Masonry is not a race it is a lifetime, I would talk to the WM about doing all the Degrees with your lodge it will mean so much more to you and them.


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## kastonw

I'm aginst the one day classes becouse I feel it takes away from the experience for the candidate I feel if we rush them through it they wont get alot out of it. This appinion is based on myself I went through my Blue Lodge degrees over the corse of a year I had to learn the work but I also had time to think about my oblgations I have recently went through the York Rite degrees over the corse of a 2 day class and tho I really enjoyed it I don't feel I as if I rushed through it but this is my appinion.


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## Glen Cook

Actually,the traditional way would be the --two-- degrees, in the same day.  See D. Stephenson, the First Freemasons.


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## Jasko Hodzic

Thanks everyone for their replies. 
Levelhead thanks for your reply, but those harsh words are the reason why the 1 day classes are necessary.
It is folks like you that give bad name to Masonry and Lodges are forced to organize 1 day classes.
I did not think that there is place in Masonry for "I would laugh at you, I would look down at you, not give you respect"
It was really uncalled for from you. All I asked for was an advice, but thanks anyway.

I am not a fan of having to take the 1 day class, but here is why I am doing it.
My Lodge meets 2nd Tuesday in the month at 7:30PM. I can attend those meetings without any problems.
The Degree work is done on Saturday morning and that is when I am at work.
All of our major projects at work are done on Saturdays.

That is why I have no choice other then to take the 1 day class.
I am planning to contact one of the Lodges in the area that does Degree work during regular time
and ask them to watch the ritual. That way I can see what experience I might have missed out.

Jasko


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## Levelhead

Jasko Hodzic said:


> Thanks everyone for their replies.
> Levelhead thanks for your reply, but those harsh words are the reason why the 1 day classes are necessary.
> It is folks like you that give bad name to Masonry and Lodges are forced to organize 1 day classes.
> I did not think that there is place in Masonry for "I would laugh at you, I would look down at you, not give you respect"
> It was really uncalled for from you. All I asked for was an advice, but thanks anyway.
> 
> I am not a fan of having to take the 1 day class, but here is why I am doing it.
> My Lodge meets 2nd Tuesday in the month at 7:30PM. I can attend those meetings without any problems.
> The Degree work is done on Saturday morning and that is when I am at work.
> All of our major projects at work are done on Saturdays.
> 
> That is why I have no choice other then to take the 1 day class.
> I am planning to contact one of the Lodges in the area that does Degree work during regular time
> and ask them to watch the ritual. That way I can see what experience I might have missed out.
> 
> Jasko



Looks like YOU don't have the time to put towards masonry. 

If you cant put in the time for degrees then you wont be able to put in the time to help the lodge.

Don't tell me what masonry needs. Your not even a mason to speak about it. Nor will your one day class teach you enough to even vouch for your self.

You know what we need? You want to know what MASONRY NEEDS???

More dedicated people to help, mentor, and be active in the blue lodge. 

WE DONT NEED people who just wear a ring & say there a mason. WE GOT ENOUGH OF THOSE!

My advice to you, find a lodge that fits your schedule and don't look for the easy way out. In sure there are lodges that will fit your schedule.

Don't cheat your self or the brothers out of a full enlightened experience.

Im going to do a one day college diploma and then go watch a doctor do a surgery, hope my first patient survives!

Watch the degrees? You will look like a fool when you go to another lodge, get "tried & denied"

I truly dont want you to go through that. You will be embarrassed.


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## dfreybur

Let's be clear about one thing - The degrees are about the candidate not about the degree team.  Those of us who have already been through ours have a very hard time getting past that.

The Scottish Rite have been doing classes you over a century and the SR is doing well.  Clearly classes work.  The SR went though that trauma long enough ago that none remember that time.  This is just a repeat of that same trauma.  Plus sa change, plus sa meme chose.

Some candidates want faster progress through the degrees.  I've served in line with brothers who did 2 degrees together.  There are plenty of PMs who did 3 degrees together.  I've seen a brother literally decline/forget to show up at his own second degree at lodge yet show up to a 2 degree class and end up in the line conferring degrees.  Please understand that you will need to work through your proficiencies anyways before you can do anything other than attend meetings and pay your dues.  But once you have delivered your proficiencies you will have put the same amount of work into your degrees as the rest of us.  If all you want is a ring and a place to donate you will have the ability to chose what some view as a second class membership.  We'll take your checks but please, please, please do your proficiencies, do the work.  Do the work and the objections you read here will phase away into fellowship.

In the new generation most candidates prefer the slower more verbose form of progress.  The proficiency work comes spread out and because we see the degrees and the proficiencies our perception of drop out is less.

I offer two topics -

1) How mystical are you?  The first degree is a mystical initiation for those of mystical mind set.  It's a fraternal initiation for those of fraternal mind set.  They are very different but not in conflict.  You can have either, both or neither depending on your own viewpoint.  The difference is the class approach makes the mystical change not practical.  If you're interested in Kabalah, hermeticism and related topics you're losing that by taking the classes.  If those topics don't interest you, as long as you do the work and present your proficiencies the harsh comments here are safely read, considered and discarded.

2) If you can't attend the Saturday events and have the choice to become a member of a lodge whose events you can attend, could you please explain to my why you chose one lodge over the other?  It doesn't seem to me like you've made a wise decision in choosing lodges because of this issue independent of the class versus individual degree issue.


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## RyanC

I'll say one more thing, your first degree and the the other two for that matter are special, some may say life changing. You will not get that on a one day class.


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## Levelhead

And i wouldn't consider a 1 day class a "journey".  Just cause you walk in Hiram's shoes down the hall don't mean you lived his experience. 

-levelhead


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## MaineMason

I did a one day class for Scottish Rite. I did my Royal Arch degrees like I did my Blue Lodge degrees: in steps of months, and learning my proficiencies, which I did in open lodge, and then I got right in line. 

It is my personal--and I repeat personal--opinion that a one day class is fine for Scottish Rite, but not good for Blue or Red Lodge. In my particular Grand Lodge, it's not permitted for the first three degrees. Not only that, but we are required to recite our proficiencies. I don't know how one could do that in one day.


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## MaineMason

It is also "illegal" here in Maine to make someone a "Mason at sight".


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## MaineMason

Levelhead said:


> And i wouldn't consider a 1 day class a "journey".  Just cause you walk in Hiram's shoes down the hall don't mean you lived his experience.
> 
> -levelhead


I would suggest some York Rite stuff to learn more about Master Hiram. To be fair, I'd also suggest some Scottish Rite degrees. The legend, so called, about Hiram and the two Kings is worth knowing about.


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## MaineMason

dfreybur said:


> Let's be clear about one thing - The degrees are about the candidate not about the degree team.  Those of us who have already been through ours have a very hard time getting past that.
> 
> The Scottish Rite have been doing classes you over a century and the SR is doing well.  Clearly classes work.  The SR went though that trauma long enough ago that none remember that time.  This is just a repeat of that same trauma.  Plus sa change, plus sa meme chose.
> 
> Some candidates want faster progress through the degrees.  I've served in line with brothers who did 2 degrees together.  There are plenty of PMs who did 3 degrees together.  I've seen a brother literally decline/forget to show up at his own second degree at lodge yet show up to a 2 degree class and end up in the line conferring degrees.  Please understand that you will need to work through your proficiencies anyways before you can do anything other than attend meetings and pay your dues.  But once you have delivered your proficiencies you will have put the same amount of work into your degrees as the rest of us.  If all you want is a ring and a place to donate you will have the ability to chose what some view as a second class membership.  We'll take your checks but please, please, please do your proficiencies, do the work.  Do the work and the objections you read here will phase away into fellowship.
> 
> In the new generation most candidates prefer the slower more verbose form of progress.  The proficiency work comes spread out and because we see the degrees and the proficiencies our perception of drop out is less.
> 
> I offer two topics -
> 
> 1) How mystical are you?  The first degree is a mystical initiation for those of mystical mind set.  It's a fraternal initiation for those of fraternal mind set.  They are very different but not in conflict.  You can have either, both or neither depending on your own viewpoint.  The difference is the class approach makes the mystical change not practical.  If you're interested in Kabalah, hermeticism and related topics you're losing that by taking the classes.  If those topics don't interest you, as long as you do the work and present your proficiencies the harsh comments here are safely read, considered and discarded.
> 
> 2) If you can't attend the Saturday events and have the choice to become a member of a lodge whose events you can attend, could you please explain to my why you chose one lodge over the other?  It doesn't seem to me like you've made a wise decision in choosing lodges because of this issue independent of the class versus individual degree issue.


I am mysical enough and wear the black and gold of the Massacusetts Consistory.


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## MarkR

Levelhead said:


> ...Id straight up laugh at you if you confronted me after the fact.
> 
> Every single person in your lodge who worked hard and took up to a year yo get raised will look at you with no respect for dedication or hard work.
> 
> Guy just shows up and is now a MM.
> 
> ...I would absolutely give you no respect as a MM.


This may be one of the most unMasonic posts I've ever seen.

We have a few one-day Masons in my Lodge.  We treat them EXACTLY the same way we treat any other brother.  One is now a Past Master of the Lodge and a very active, very productive member of the Lodge.


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## Levelhead

I just dont want to see anyone get cheated out of the "Masonic" experience.

I worked way too hard , studying, memorizing, giving back, waiting periods, ect to give someone who just walked in paid and got raised respect. Respect for what? Not having enough time?

Thats laziness. Excuse to be made a MM and not do the work. We yell guys who come to our lodge "if you cant put in the time then masonry is not for you" 

And i will bet my bottom dollar guys who did a one day class can not proficiently even read the coded books to even follow along none the less sit in a chair.

Its not Un Masonic to keep our roots of dedication and edict in our heart and in violet. 

Im an upright man and mason. I put in my time and sweat (literally) to keep the traditions the best i could as i went through.

Im only talking about MASONRY (blue lodge) . 

We had a HIGH RANKING person join, get initiated and he was under the suspicion that since he had no time and was a high ranking person that we would need him and pass him through i guess a one day or under the radar. Great guy great person, ton of connections but masonry was not for him nor was he for our lodge.


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## Brother JC

Levelhead, you've made your opinion quite clear already. Please reign your passions in and move on.


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## Levelhead

No problem!


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## Brother JC

Thanks.


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## Pete Ramboldt

I know of 5 MM's in our lodge that went through the ODC and all of them are proficient in their work! # of them have gone through the chairs and are Past Masters of the lodge and did a great job all of the way through. No mater how one attaines the degree of MM they deserve the respect of that achievement!
I also am not too keen on the ODC, however masons in our lodge meet and act on the level.
The fault of not knowing the work is on the lodge for not having calsses to teach after the degrees are over not on the candidate.


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## crono782

I think it's great that there are Masons who turned out great despite their ODC. I much prefer that they end up good MMs than not. However I would not consider their turning out ok as justification to continue ODCs. I personally think they (one days) are by products of our instant gratification, "I want it now", convenience-centric societal mentality. Something earned and worked hard for is appreciated. More so something *sacrificed* for. An inconvenient schedule IMO does not qualify for a one day or on sight, but that's my opinion. Only something so dire as "this is the only opportunity in his life to do this" kinda exception. I feel they are contrary to the whole point... although I guess that depends on what you feel the point of Freemasonry actually is.

I would not look down on, disrespect, or consider less an ODC'er. Rather I think I just feel sad that their experience was so truncated and lament that we have devolved into convenience over ritual.


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## Glen Cook

kastonw said:


> I'm totally against it because I feel like you have not earned the right to be called a Master Mason I had to work long and hard to get through my degrees weeks and weeks of memorization to get it right and now someone can me a go sit through a one day class and call himself a Master Mason I would have a hard time respecting that person over someone who went through it the right way


So, in jurisdictions such as UGLE that don't require this lengthy memorization, the members aren't entitled to respect?  Hmm


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## Glen Cook

An


Levelhead said:


> And i wouldn't consider a 1 day class a "journey".  Just cause you walk in Hiram's shoes down the hall don't mean you lived his experience.
> 
> -levelhead


and for lodges which don't have this ceremony as part of their ritual?  Are our members not entitled to your respect?


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## Companion Joe

While I doubt that I would look negatively on a person who did the ODC, I certainly don't have a positive opinion of getting your degrees in one day. It is contrary to the landmarks of the craft. You learn to become a Mason by working with someone to learn your lectures. I agree that ODCs are a byproduct of today's instant gratification, want it now mentality. 

To my knowledge, my state doesn't allow one day classes. In 20 years as a MM, I have never heard of it being done here. I know for a fact no one in my end of the state does it.


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## Glen Cook

Companion Joe said:


> While I doubt that I would look negatively on a person who did the ODC, I certainly don't have a positive opinion of getting your degrees in one day. It is contrary to the landmarks of the craft. ...



Which Landmarks?


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## Companion Joe

The landmark of the lectures being passed mouth to ear, it being a right of passage to learn your lectures and pass them, the time spent with a mentor teaching you your lectures. After 20 years, I remember very little about my actual degrees. I can remember one thing from my EA, absolutely nothing about my FC, and one thing from the first section and two from the second section of my MM. I couldn't tell you who conferred either of my first two degrees, but I can remember working with my mentor learning all three lectures as if it were yesterday. My mentor conferred my MM, and I do remember him choking up when he presented me with my apron.


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## Glen Cook

Companion Joe said:


> The landmark of the lectures being passed mouth to ear, it being a right of passage to learn your lectures and pass them, the time spent with a mentor teaching you your lectures. .....


I'm fairly familiar with the various lists of landmarks. I've never seen that one.  Does TN still use the list of 15 Landmarks?  Pretty sure that isn't in it.   Indeed, my province of Cheshire, the oldest Masonic province, does not use mouth to ear.  I doubt if we are in violation of a landmark,  noting  we've been around 50 years before the US was  founded and about 88 years before the Grand Lodge of TN.  I think we're pretty good on the "traditional" way.

Further, a number of jurisdictions allow the Grand Master to waive the time for various reasons. Remember also, that the two  degrees were originally conferred on one day.  That would be the traditional way.

If someone doesn't like the accelerated classes, that's fine, and I can see the reasoning behind developing a relationship with a mentor and time to reflect on the degree.  But arguments as to landmarks and tradition are not helpful.


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## Companion Joe

I didn't mean landmark as in Masonic Landmark. Perhaps I should have said "one of the foundations" of becoming a Mason. Sorry for any confusion. Our state allows the GM to waive the time and allows him to make Masons at sight if he wishes, but that isn't the point. In our state, the waiting time is 28 days, based on the lunar calendar when lodges met on the first night of the full moon instead of set nights.

You don't use mouth to ear? Does that mean your lectures are written down?


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## Glen Cook

So, a foundation of Masonry is ear to mouth instruction and waiting between degrees?  I don't accept that either philosophically or factually.

In UGLE not just the lectures are written, but the entire ritual (but for the G and PW).  In Utah the lectures are written and candidates are provided a cipher for the other work.  So, we know that the mode of learning is not a foundation of Freemasonry.

In Utah, the waiting time between degrees is two weeks.  Again, remember that the two degrees were conferred in Scotland at the same time.  So, a particular waiting time isn't a foundation of Freemasonry.

Therefore, it just doesn't appear that these are parts of the foundation of Masonry. And, how sad if that were to be the case: to say that we require no more than that asked of a 12 year old learning his verses.  

As to memorization, it might be useful to look at Paul Bessel's website as to the various forms that are now allowed: http://bessel.org/advance.htm.  England has about 9-11 questions.  It takes about three minutes to answer them.  Consequently, extensive memorization of the catechism doesn't appear to be a foundation of Masonry either.

In fact one might argue these are all innovations in Freemasonry <G>.  

Again, there are reasons to argue against an accelerated class, but declaring this item or that to be a foundation or landmark usually is not well laid.  For instance, in Utah we have extensive proficiency requirements to be come Master: open and close in all three degrees; confer all three degrees including KS and the G lecture in the second.  Should I declare that to be a foundation of Masonry and those who depart from it aren't good Masters?


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## Companion Joe

To each his own, as you and I have disagreed on many threads. But if everything is written down in plain language, and all that is required is to answer a few questions, Freemasonry might as well be no more than the Moose or the Elks.


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## Zack

Glen Cook said:


> For instance, in Utah we have extensive proficiency requirements to be come Master: open and close in all three degrees; confer all three degrees including KS and the G lecture in the second.


 
I whole heartedly endorse this.  I wish we had this rule.  It is tedious, at best, to watch a Master struggle to open and close a lodge.  It certainly doesn't speak well to  "the right of advancement".


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## Glen Cook

Companion Joe said:


> To each his own, as you and I have disagreed on many threads. But if everything is written down in plain language, and all that is required is to answer a few questions, Freemasonry might as well be no more than the Moose or the Elks.


Actually, I am a member of two other fraternal orders.  My grandfather and great grandfather were Odd Fellows.   I don't know that Masonry is better or worse than those are.  It is older.  FWIW, I did learn mouth to ear and am a Past Grand Lecturer in Utah and a Senior Ritualist.  So, my view of the necessity of memorization isn't just sour grapes.  

It appears we really are in agreement here: objections to one day classes are a personal preference, and not based upon landmark, foundation or tradition.

I only remember disagreeing on one issue, that of feminine masonry, and my expression of surprise that you had never heard of such until the internet discussion this year.  That doesn't mean there should or would be disagreement on another issue.  As you gain experience in wider Freemasonry (which I think is the stumbling block), you will find it common that disagreement on one issue is not necessarily an indicator of disagreement on others.


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## MasterBulldawg

Levelhead said:


> Yes you will miss out on the WHOLE masonic experience. You will learn anything nor be able to answer any questions when examined.
> 
> We just talked about this at our monthly round table.
> 
> Do it right. No need to rush.
> 
> Id straight up laugh at you if you confronted me after the fact.
> 
> Knowledge and memory is a strong part of freemasonry.
> 
> Whats the rush? Are you using the blue lodge ad a hallway to an appendant body?
> 
> 
> Every single person in your lodge who worked hard and took up to a year yo get raised will look at you with no respect for dedication or hard work.
> 
> Guy just shows up and is now a MM.
> 
> I would absolutely give you no respect as a MM.
> 
> Your missing out on the whole story, the learning , the knowledge.



*I am a one day class Mason. I worked just as hard as you did. I stood proficient in ALL THREE Degrees. I have been active since being raised.  I have gone through the chairs and put on degrees now a past master.  I have meet many a Master Mason who does not like the one day class but that's do to the fact that many of them(1 day class masons) never learn the work. I missed out on nothing . Oh btw when I join the lodge that was how they did it then. In Florida each Grand Master decides if one day classes are allowed and none have since my year except for men in the Armed Services who meet certain requirements can do 1 day classes.  So you Levelhead  would not give them the same respect? IMHO anyone who is raised as a Master Mason and is willing to put in the work to be a good and fruitful Mason gets my respect.*


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## phulseapple

Personally I am opposed to the one day class for Blue Lodge, mainly because of how my lodge has been doing degrees.  However, I can say that under certain circumstances, it *could *be appropriate.  It would also depend on how the class is held.  If each degree was conferred and time spent between each discussing the degree, and I mean ACTIVE discussion with the candidates, then it would sit better with me than if the degrees were simply presented in rapid succession with no time for the candidates to digest at least a few of the symbolic meanings.  I have no problem with a MM who went through a one day class, provided he can prove he is worthy of that rank and title.  If he cannot prove he is worthy, that indicates to me that he either did not receive proper instruction or needs more time to master his skills.  Both of which can be corrected with the proper teacher.  It is the mason (one day or not) that merely goes through the motions without the intent or desire to improve himself that is the detriment to our great fraternity.  Remember, we must all continually use the working tools to transform our rough ashlar into the perfect ashlar.


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## kastonw

Well said


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## bezobrazan

I'm old school, the more time & effort you put into something the more you get back.  Also, more knowledge & understanding of what this thing of ours is really about will hit home. One day classes have their uses, but so does instant mashed potatoes.


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## Glen Cook

bezobrazan said:


> I'm old school, the more time & effort you put into something the more you get back.  Also, more knowledge & understanding of what this thing of ours is really about will hit home. One day classes have their uses, but so does instant mashed potatoes.


I don't think anyone disagrees that effort brings reward. The question is whether accelerated degrees as have been done for centuries (old school) frustrates that reward. I've seen many candidates.  I've not seen any difference in their diligence as Freemasons based on how they took degrees.


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## Morris

I've always been a little slow on change and I have to force myself to look at things from others' point of view. This is a pretty good example for me. The line that I once drew isn't so clear. 

Thanks for the discussions.


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## jets1230

Morris said:


> I've always been a little slow on change and I have to force myself to look at things from others' point of view. This is a pretty good example for me. The line that I once drew isn't so clear.
> 
> Thanks for the discussions.


With all that has to be learned I just can't see it and it to me seems your being robbed of the learning experience of it all.
We have to memorize all three degrees before one obtains it all so later you can go thru the chairs and know what to say or even fill in when one is absent.
More power to you if you memorized it all and your mind is a lot better than mine


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## Zack

Memorization is one thing, understanding what is memorized and putting it to work in your life is another thing altogether.

Personally, the memorization process is important to me.  By the repetition it focuses my mind on what the lessons are.  Sometimes it has taken years for me too see what's behind the veil.

I don't agree with ODC's , but as I stated above, I've met some great Brothers who have travelled that way.


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## JJones

(Warning: The following is merely opinion and may be offensive to some, despite my efforts to to be)

What is easily obtained is easily discarded.  Even if a brother is still required to memorize the work after the degrees are given the fact remains that they have still been rushed through what were originally intended to be transformational and life changing experiences.  It's sad enough that they are rarely conducted in such a way, as it is, that they are impactful, now some of us want to bestow all three degrees in one day to a group of men?  This isn't a fix for the (IMO non-existent) membership problem...all we're doing is cheapening the fraternity.

Yes.  I know.  -Some- one-day brothers turn out to be very active and good masons.  This isn't a testimony to any kind of one-day success so much as it's a fact of probability.  If you confer the degrees on 100 men you'll get a handful of active members out of it, maybe.  The rest of them will go on with the rest of their lives, unchanged, except now they can wear a ring and know the secrets of Freemasonry which were once closely guarded and held dear.

That being said, I have nothing against those men who were raised in a day.  In many cases they often never know there's a different way of doing it.


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## kastonw

I agree with Brother JJones


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## Rick Carver

In my jurisdiction you are not required to pay dues until you are made a Master Mason. EA and FC Masons are not charged any dues, however the do pay an Initiation Fee. I always thought this seemed a bit odd, and it almost seems like it is the intention of the system to run new members through quickly so GL can get the per capita and the Lodges get the dues.  Both are a necessary evil in order for the Craft to survive.

I wonder if payment of dues were to begin when the candidate was Initiated as an EA, maybe the "rush" would end, and with it the end of the One Day Class? I hate the Make a Master Mason in a Minute classes. It robs the man of the initiatic experience and cheapens the whole meaning of what is being conveyed.


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## Warrior1256

MaineMason said:


> I did a one day class for Scottish Rite. I did my Royal Arch degrees like I did my Blue Lodge degrees: in steps of months, and learning my proficiencies, which I did in open lodge, and then I got right in line.
> 
> It is my personal--and I repeat personal--opinion that a one day class is fine for Scottish Rite, but not good for Blue or Red Lodge. In my particular Grand Lodge, it's not permitted for the first three degrees. Not only that, but we are required to recite our proficiencies. I don't know how one could do that in one day.


I was going to go through the York Rite in a one day class but that fell through. Will be doing it the old fashioned way now.


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## dfreybur

Zack said:


> Memorization is one thing, understanding what is memorized and putting it to work in your life is another thing altogether.



Thing is I've seen certified ritual instructors who can't discuss the meaning to save their lives.  They can recite word for word not just every word for every point in the ritual but also the stage directions for the floor work, yet it seems like they are playing a tape.

Memorization is good.  Some don't believe they can and when we teach them it breaks down a self imposed limitation.  But memorization doesn't equate to understanding.


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## Zack

dfreybur said:


> Thing is I've seen certified ritual instructors who can't discuss the meaning to save their lives.  They can recite word for word not just every word for every point in the ritual but also the stage directions for the floor work, yet it seems like they are playing a tape.


 
and that my Brother, is the shortcoming of the ritualist not the ritual.  Like any other instructions...you can heed the lessons or ignore them.
The beauty of ritual is that it can be passed on by those who do not understand it to others who might.


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## bezobrazan

I think the real prize is in process as much as it is the result, maybe even more so. I'm not doubting anyone's commitment, but we're not Neo from the Matrix, we don't just plug in and automatically know kung fu. What is honestly the hurry?  My life is crazy busy, just like anyone's, but I made a commitment to make time.


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## crono782

I heard an analogy recently that kinda hit the point home:
A guy's kid, let's call him Jimmy, wanted to become a boy scout. Unfortunately, Jimmy was so busy with sports and other activities that he didn't have time to go to scout meetings, work on merit badges, on campouts, etc. The local council, seeing the perceived decline in membership decided to offer a chance for boys to join and become Eagle Scouts in just ONE day! That's right, little Jimmy could go from Scout rank all the way up past Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, and Life right up to Eagle, no need for lengthy merit badges, leadership, service and whatnot. The theory was that, they would go back *afterwards* and learn woodcraft, camping, pioneering, orienteering, wilderness survival, rowing, knots, first aid, citizenship, etc on their own time and they could enjoy being an Eagle scout straight away. Sure, some of the boys who went this route this ended up growing up to becoming quite well-rounded individuals so the practice was kept around, but sadly a lot of boys didn't see the benefit in this and so fell away, quit, and forgot about the whole thing.


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## Glen Cook

The assumption seems to be that waiting a month or so between degrees is some significant achievement and men gain  great knowledge in 30 days.  You can tell I don't accept that premise.  Remember, this emphasis on candidate memorization is largely a phenomenon of the newer US GLs.  I'm old school (i.e., my UGLE province was founded in 1725 and we don't require memorization) and in two decades of Masonry on two continents have not seen that memorization is necessary for learning the lessons of Freemasonry. Birds don't have particularly large brains and some of them can repeat words.  That does not make them a Mason either.  One of the best ritualists I have known is under a sentence of suspension for violating his MM obligation. Memorization does not a Mason make. 

And, lest you think it is sour grapes, I am a Past Grand Lecturer and senior ritualist in Utah and conferred all three degrees and recited my obligation  from memory as WM of my Cheshire lodge. I've done AASR, YR, Sojourners, and Red Cross ritual. That doesn't make me a good Mason. It just means I can parrot.  How I've lived the obligations I made is the true gauge of my achievement.


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## bezobrazan

You know what?  You're right. Heck why not one hour classes?  Hey, let's do all 3 degrees in one minute!  Clearly, time put into doesn't mean anything. Saying there's no difference in one day or thirty days is a stretch. Also, a bird doesn't understand what it is parroting, we do.


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## JJones

@Glen Cook 

I don't think anyone here believes the sheer act of memorization  is enough to transform a man, if that was the case we'd never have a need for masonic charges.


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## Glen Cook

The time taken to perform a degree is different than the the time between degrees. However, as we know, the two degrees were conferred in Scotland in the same day. And, degrees do only take about an hour in UGLE   We don't perform the Hiramic play.  

I don't accept that men understand what they are parroting, having corrected ritual that made no sense if one one really understood what was being said (my favorite is the WM reciting a penalty as "severely twanged."  We had no idea what that meant, but it sounded awful).  However, assuming for argument that men do understand the words, I've sat too long on international and local JP and GA committees to believe that memorization makes a good Mason. 

Many GLs/GMs waived time between degrees for WWII service members who were leaving. English Masons do not have the US memorizaton requirements. Are they somehow undeserving?  

An analogy: GL of Utah has demanding requirements for a WM, more than I've heard of in any other jurisdiction. To use the premise of some, only WMs who have met those stringent requirements are worthy and deserving of the WM title.  They are the only ones who put the time in.  The fact that they are in a minority in imposing the requirement  doesn't matter. 

This newer requirement of memorization in the US has not been shown to have a relationship to being a Mason in my experience.  It is not tradition. It is an innovation. I have not seen that waiting a few weeks between degrees makes a difference Masonic character.   Certainly, as seen by internet discussions, they have not learned to subdue their passions.


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## Glen Cook

JJones said:


> @Glen Cook
> 
> I don't think anyone here believes the sheer act of memorization  is enough to transform a man, if that was the case we'd never have a need for masonic charges.



I agree as to the conclusion, but not so sure of the premise. Why then do people believe that this memorization is "better" when the Home Grand Lodges do not?


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## Morris

Bro Cook. Please correct me if I'm wrong but UGLE doesn't require memorization but there is a large time awaited between degrees. Is that correct? If it is, what's the reasoning on the wait, if you know. Is that wait required in Scotland?


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## Glen Cook

Rule 172: Four weeks. Rule 90: lodges abroad, one week with dispensation.  I do not know the reasoning. I do know that Senior GL Members REALLY do not like the practice of US GLs which do accelerated classes. 

I do not know the current rule in Scotland.  At one time it was two weeks, except in cases of emergency. XXIV, section 6.


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## phulseapple

I offer this up for contemplation.  As speculative masons, we use allegory to symbolically use the working tools of the operative stone mason.  An operative stone mason was required to spend a certain amount of time as an apprentice and then as a fellow craft working under the direction of a master stone mason.  Applying logic, one of the 7 liberal arts and sciences we learn about in the FC lecture, it would make sense that we as speculative masons should also spend a certain amount of time as an apprentice and as a fellow craft.  During these time periods, we practice our "trade" under the guidance of a trusted mentor or master and learn the use of the working tools of the corresponding degree.  If I recall correctly, the amount of time one spent as an operative apprentice was 7 years and 3 years as a fellow craft.   For us as speculative masons, the use of memorization is merely symbolic of the time spent by our ancient operative brethren working side by side with their teacher to learn the proper use of the operative tools of the trade.  When done *properly*, working with our mentors on the memorization of a few lines is the same thing.  It teaches us how to appropriately use the operative tools in a speculative manner.  100% perfect rote memorization is immaterial as long as the understanding is there.  If a new EA can't recite the entire Q and A word for word it doesn't matter.  I would rather he be able to tell me the significance of the common gavel or why he was prepared in the manner he was for his initiation and the significance of the different objects in the lodge room during the initiation.  Over time he will naturally commit the mere words of the ritual to memory as he attends the degrees and other meetings.  The basic understanding comes from the mentor and the apprentice applies his lessons to   I remember working with my mentor, we would go through the piece maybe once in the 2 hours we met each week, the rest of the time was spent discussing the actual material and what it all meant.


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## Warrior1256

Glen Cook said:


> The assumption seems to be that waiting a month or so between degrees is some significant achievement and men gain  great knowledge in 30 days.  You can tell I don't accept that premise.  Remember, this emphasis on candidate memorization is largely a phenomenon of the newer US GLs.  I'm old school (i.e., my UGLE province was founded in 1725 and we don't require memorization) and in two decades of Masonry on two continents have not seen that memorization is necessary for learning the lessons of Freemasonry. Birds don't have particularly large brains and some of them can repeat words.  That does not make them a Mason either.  One of the best ritualists I have known is under a sentence of suspension for violating his MM obligation. Memorization does not a Mason make.
> 
> And, lest you think it is sour grapes, I am a Past Grand Lecturer and senior ritualist in Utah and conferred all three degrees and recited my obligation  from memory as WM of my Cheshire lodge. I've done AASR, YR, Sojourners, and Red Cross ritual. That doesn't make me a good Mason. It just means I can parrot.  How I've lived the obligations I made is the true gauge of my achievement.


Excellent points. One of the things that I like best about this forum is all of the interacting between brothers with these different points of view.


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## crono782

I am less concerned about memorization and men being "good ritualists" and more about them laboring in the quarries properly. I think barring a better method, the memory catechisms are a way to symbolically or literally demonstrate that they have performed their labors. I would actually prefer perhaps a tad less catechism and a little more learn the meanings and relate them in your own words kinda thing. By making the initiates internalize the lessons and relate them back colored by their own experiences, I think that does a better job towards our goal than entirely rote memorization. But that's me.


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## phulseapple

crono782 said:


> I am less concerned about memorization and men being "good ritualists" and more about them laboring in the quarries properly. I think barring a better method, the memory catechisms are a way to symbolically or literally demonstrate that they have performed their labors. I would actually prefer perhaps a tad less catechism and a little more learn the meanings and relate them in your own words kinda thing. By making the initiates internalize the lessons and relate them back colored by their own experiences, I think that does a better job towards our goal than entirely rote memorization. But that's me.


My lodge is starting just that.  We are requiring all candidates to prepare a short paper on some part of each of the degrees to show they have that understanding.  We are becoming an Observant lodge and this is one of the criteria.


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## Zack

phulseapple said:


> I would rather he be able to tell me the significance of the common gavel or why he was prepared in the manner he was for his initiation and the significance of the different objects in the lodge room during the initiation.  QUOTE]
> 
> And all that is explained in the rituals.


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## phulseapple

Agreed they are mentioned, but a full understanding of them is not.  For example, why is it called a common gavel?  Or, what is the significance of the mosaic pavement or the ark and anchor, the beehive, pencil or Skirrit.  Memorizing the words is good, memorizing the full meaning and the reasons behind those words and how they can be used and applied to your daily life, that is more important.


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## crono782

phulseapple said:


> Agreed they are mentioned, but a full understanding of them is not.  For example, why is it called a common gavel?  Or, what is the significance of the mosaic pavement or the ark and anchor, the beehive, pencil or Skirrit.  Memorizing the words is good, memorizing the full meaning and the reasons behind those words and how they can be used and applied to your daily life, that is more important.


 And to add to this, much of the symbolism is multi-layered and has more than just the monitorial meaning that must be sought after.


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## Warrior1256

phulseapple said:


> Agreed they are mentioned, but a full understanding of them is not.  For example, why is it called a common gavel?  Or, what is the significance of the mosaic pavement or the ark and anchor, the beehive, pencil or Skirrit.  Memorizing the words is good, memorizing the full meaning and the reasons behind those words and how they can be used and applied to your daily life, that is more important.


Agreed!


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## Brother_Steve

This issue with confronting ODCers is that they are by all intents and purposes, a Master Mason on the level. You have no high ground to belittle them.

the issue with ODC masons is that they struggle with ritual work. The work that we all go through to memorize between each degree. You hear it repeated over and over as you progress through the fraternity and it becomes a part of you. That is what the ODCer misses.

So you spend at a minimum of 84 days to MM from initiation.

A 30 year mason with 84 days of going through the degrees vs a 30 mason with a one day class is negligible. Look at the ratio of time of 1 day vs 84 days as time moves forward.

A well read ODCer will be just as good as a Well Read MM who went through the degrees.

The only difference will be the experience. That is the trade off though and something not worth trading in.


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## BroBill

I approach the question from the perspective that my degrees were MY degrees and I got to experience the lesson first hand as opposed to watching while someone experienced it for me. I will always remember the "feel" of the degrees as I experienced each section.  I cherish those memories and I can't imagine how I would feel about the "story" and the lessons if I had observed as an exemplar took my degrees.  I'm not saying ODCs are wrong, sometimes situations drive the form. I'm just sharing my personal thoughts and those may not apply to every brother or prospective brother.


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## Morris

Morris said:


> I've always been a little slow on change and I have to force myself to look at things from others' point of view. This is a pretty good example for me. The line that I once drew isn't so clear.
> 
> Thanks for the discussions.


Quoting myself here but now I'm back to awaiting a time with patience. I just finished Bro Porter's book on TO lodges and believe I have gained a lot of perspective. Not in a long lost way of doing it sense but from the making each moment that much more special for the candidate sense.


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## Morris

Nm. Apparently I don't know how to edit. J/k


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## Speedbird13

This has been an interesting read. Im from Australia and we do it differently down here. We don't have 1 day courses. 
We are initiated and can't be raised to the third until a minimum of 12 months from the initiation. The lodge can apply for a dispensation from Grand Lodge to raise a candidate earlier but obviously depending on the circumstances. 

Reading this whole thread, and not meeting anyone who has done a 1 day course, it seems absolutely crazy that anyone can go through all 3 degrees and walk out at the end of the day with any proper understanding.

It seems that afterwards, it will be up to the candidate to learn everything himself which as I have read in here, a lot do not. 

One thing I can see happening is that a new generation of Freemasons are being brought into our fraternity with no understanding, and in the future, we will be conducting rituals which we don't understand. When that happens, the heart of Freemasonry is lost.

They should make study mandantory after the 1 day course as well as testing to insure that the heart of Freemasonry survives. 

Just my opinion from another country where we do things differently.


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## Glen Cook

I doubt if anyone does have a "proper understanding" after completing an accelerated class. I doubt anyone has a proper understanding the morning after a degree no matter what the time between degrees. Further, I've not seen that simply waiting between degrees changes the knowledge that is imparted. It is also worthwhile to remember that this is the manner in which the two degrees were originally conferred in Scotland and, yet, the fraternity survived for the next four hundred years. During WWII in some US jurisdictions it was common to waive the time between degrees yet, again, the fraternity did fine. My degrees were a month apart. Was that long enough?  Perhaps not, as two decades on and after having served in a majority of the Craft offices I still don't have a complete understanding of the degrees.


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## Speedbird13

In the ceremony of Raising, I believe one of the charges states "(in regard to the badge of a MM).. It calls upon you to afford assistance and instruction to your bretheren in the inferior degrees."

A MM who has been in the Craft for a day, can not offer assistance to an EA FC who has been in the Craft for a couple of months, thus they should not be wearing a MM apron for they really ARN'T a MASTER Mason. They technically are an Apprentice as they are new and learning....
That is the reason why we have Entered Apprentices. They are new and need to learn. 

I just want to finish this off by say I mean NO dispect to any of my Brothers who have gone through the one day course, but I am just giving my thoughts on it as it really has taken me by surprise


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## Glen Cook

I agree: an MM who has been such for only a day cannot offer assistance to an FC.    That is because he has only been an MM for a day.  The underlying assumption in your view is that the MM didn't learn anything and the FC has.  I have not seen that to be the case.  Simply going to one or two additional meetings surely adds but a minimum of knowledge.  It is not my experience that simply putting in the time is consonant with obtaining knowledge. One of the most knowledgeable Masons regarding the highest degrees whom I know went through the accelerated degrees.  He is now a senior officer in an appendant body, a 33 Honorary, and a member of Red Cross of Constantine. 

There is also the issue of what we wish to be communicating: Masonic knowledge or Masonic character. One of the greatest ritualists I've known, a PGM of his jurisdiction and a PGM of DeMolay, is a suspended Mason for violating his ob.  Simply putting in the time does not a Mason make.


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## Glen Cook

BroBill said:


> I approach the question from the perspective that my degrees were MY degrees and I got to experience the lesson first hand as opposed to watching while someone experienced it for me. I will always remember the "feel" of the degrees as I experienced each section.  I cherish those memories and I can't imagine how I would feel about the "story" and the lessons if I had observed as an exemplar took my degrees.  I'm not saying ODCs are wrong, sometimes situations drive the form. I'm just sharing my personal thoughts and those may not apply to every brother or prospective brother.


And I respect that position.  OTOH, I didn't get that much wandering around, unable to see what was being done, disoriented.  I have obtained more from the degrees I have observed, and even more from those I conferred.


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## Glen Cook

Brother_Steve said:


> ....
> 
> the issue with ODC masons is that they struggle with ritual work. The work that we all go through to memorize between each degree.
> 
> .. .


Ahh, but not all jurisdictions require this memorization.


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## MasterBulldawg

No matter if you  went  through ODC or the more  traditional  way.... it is about  the time  and effort  you  put  in to  it after being  raised. ..I have seen 1 dayers like  myself  who jump  in and are eager to learn  and work then I have seen ones  take the traditional  way and  once  they  are raised  you see nothing  more of them ...they just become  names added  to  the  Lodge rolls.


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## Warrior1256

Good point!


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## Speedbird13

Good points about the time they put in


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## mrpierce17




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## AndreAshlar

There's something be said for the journey from entered to raised.  The challenge of learning.   The anticipation of proving oneself worthy of the subsequent degree.  The contemplating that happens between degrees.  The understanding that accompanies time spent learning and processing each step.  The feeling of being one step closer with each advancement.  I could go on.  I think a brother loses out when the blue lodge degrees are received hastily.  That being said, I'd respect a brother who went this path.  I just feel like he's missing out...


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## MasterBulldawg

AndreAshlar said:


> I think a brother loses out when the blue lodge degrees are received hastily.  That being said, I'd respect a brother who went this path.  I just feel like he's missing out...



You may be  right about  missing  something but you are more  right  on the respect aspect. A Brother is Brother and Masonry is all about  the effort  you  put  in  to  it.


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## AndreAshlar

Indeed @MasterBulldawg , a brother IS a brother.  Make no mistake about it.  But, one day blue lodge degree conferrals is a controversial issue.  Regarding the debate, I believe brothers are most likely to lean towards the experience that most closely resembles their own, providing that they view it as a positive one.  That being said, of course there are exceptions.  Here are a few interesting perspectives on one-day /G\ classes... http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/Masonry/One-Day/


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## Glen Cook

Hmm. How about an analogy? In my mother jurisdiction, we have exacting requirements to become a Wordhipful Master, including the ability to open and close lodge in all three degrees, confer all three degrees, perform the lecture of a degree, do the "G" lecture, perform each of the officer positions in the second section of the Master Mason degree, and demonstrate familiarity with the trial code. 

Other Grand Lodge may not have these requirements (UGLE, where I am also a PM, does not). Therefore, their worshipful masters are not really worshipful masters  because they haven't met my GL standards, even though they have met the standards of their Grand Lodge. Their  worshipful masters  did not earn the right to be called worshipful master. They have missed out on the experience. They have not put the time in. They have not learned everything.

These are the arguments applied to those MMs who have met the degree time requirements of their own GL and ancient tradition, but have not met the time requirements of some other GLs.

A question: are there any GLs which do not require a Master to have served as a Warden?


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## Morris

http://www.midnightfreemasons.org/2015/01/quick-masonry.html?m=1


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## crono782

Glen Cook said:


> Other Grand Lodge may not have these requirements (UGLE, where I am also a PM, does not). Therefore, their worshipful masters are not really worshipful masters  because they haven't met my GL standards, even though they have met the standards of their Grand Lodge. Their  worshipful masters  did not earn the right to be called worshipful master. They have missed out on the experience. They have not put the time in. They have not learned everything.



I think a more accurate analogy based on what you said would be having the same requirements to be Worshipful Master, but instead of making them be met in reality, they were "symbolically met" by reading or ceremony and then they are all set to be WM (and achieved after the fact)

The length of the marathon and the accomplishment at the end do not change, just that some ran and others rode in a car. 

Reminds me of the "virtual past master" degree here in order to "symbolically" be a PM in order to take the Royal Arch degree. I guess you could call me a hypocrite because I am a royal arch mason, but not a past master as was the requirement in the olden days. But it does make me curious if down the road 100 years, there will be no degrees or process at all, one is simply "made" a master mason and those of the day will look back in the minutes about our degrees being conferee over the course of time with only a passing interest..


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## MaineMason

crono782 said:


> I think a more accurate analogy based on what you said would be having the same requirements to be Worshipful Master, but instead of making them be met in reality, they were "symbolically met" by reading or ceremony and then they are all set to be WM (and achieved after the fact)
> 
> The length of the marathon and the accomplishment at the end do not change, just that some ran and others rode in a car.
> 
> Reminds me of the "virtual past master" degree here in order to "symbolically" be a PM in order to take the Royal Arch degree. I guess you could call me a hypocrite because I am a royal arch mason, but not a past master as was the requirement in the olden days. But it does make me curious if down the road 100 years, there will be no degrees or process at all, one is simply "made" a master mason and those of the day will look back in the minutes about our degrees being conferee over the course of time with only a passing interest..


I am also a Royal Arch Mason.


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## perryel

crono782 said:


> I think a more accurate analogy based on what you said would be having the same requirements to be Worshipful Master, but instead of making them be met in reality, they were "symbolically met" by reading or ceremony and then they are all set to be WM (and achieved after the fact)
> 
> The length of the marathon and the accomplishment at the end do not change, just that some ran and others rode in a car.
> 
> Reminds me of the "virtual past master" degree here in order to "symbolically" be a PM in order to take the Royal Arch degree. I guess you could call me a hypocrite because I am a royal arch mason, but not a past master as was the requirement in the olden days. But it does make me curious if down the road 100 years, there will be no degrees or process at all, one is simply "made" a master mason and those of the day will look back in the minutes about our degrees being conferee over the course of time with only a passing interest..



Nice analogy.  If we extrapolate it a bit, the Virtual Past Master rank doesn't extend beyond the Chapter.  My Blue Lodge won't let me occupy the WM's station after virtually passing the chair.


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## mrpierce17

I agree that a brother is as much of a brother as I myself wether he choose the one day class or the traditional route though I wouldn't agree that he was a WELL INFORMED MASON until he has put in sufficient time studying each degree just my 15 cent


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## Chad Painter

To share some perspective.  I originally petitioned some 10 years ago and never passed to FC due to my life blowing up(job loss new baby etc). I had made a promise to myself that I would not do this half way. However at the time I did not have the time or focus to accomplish what I wanted to. Unfortunately there was a bit of hazing from some friends/brothers who knew me socially but not personally. That really soured me towards  the fraternity for a long time.  
So Fast forward to last year my life has become less complicated and manageable I petitioned again for another lodge where I live now. Great lodge and great group of guys however my mentor had some difficulties presented to him that made things rather difficult for us to practice or get together at all.  Recently our GL offered an ODC and I jumped on the opportunity.  It was an amazing experience and invigorated me to learn more. I know have a long journey ahead, but now I have more opportunities to be involved in the craft and learn the way that "I" learn best.   I see the pros and con's and I know that traditions can dictate one way or another but who are we as brethren to say what is the correct path to enlightenment for any other brother? It is our duty to stand arm in arm with them and assist them if they falter and rejoice with them in their successes.

I thank you all for the enlightenment shared here and I look forward to my journey however it began.


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## Warrior1256

Chad Painter said:


> I thank you all for the enlightenment shared here and I look forward to my journey however it began.


Welcome to the forum brother.


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## Bloke

I know this is necro posting - but I think it is good to go back, look at what was said and thought at a time, and how well those thoughts and words have served us. If we are supposed to examine ourselves for improvement, surely we should also examine our organisation as an Institution, and learn from our successes and failures ? We love to keep talking about the same problems for decades, applying the same solutions, some successful, but so many seem to be on a cycle of failure or lacking long term sustainability and replicable. 

If there is one fault with the Leadership of Freemasonry, it that it often relies on its "gut" rather than facts and data, and even when it has data, we love  to interpret it according to our own bias. 

Things like this are qualitative https://vimeo.com/285343845 (and a great video) but is there any qualitative data on the effect of one day classes ? Can anyone point me to any significant data (not single stories like Bro Chris Hodapp's etc) on the benefits and downsides of one day classes ? I have commentaries on Blue Lightening against the MSANA membership figures (increases followed by drops) but not of it from authoritative source.

Can anyone help ?


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## dalinkou

Bloke said:


> I know this is necro posting ...Can anyone help ?



Well brother, the question is as valid as it was the first time I encountered it.  

I have asked this question in every jurisdiction that I have visited outside Texas, and every brother that I have met who has experience with the ODC (one day class) says that the retention percentage is about the same as with the traditional time-honored path.  If our goal is to place butts in chairs, then it follows that if we raise more we will have higher membership numbers.

The challenge that I see is that such performance metrics are like bikinis - they can show a lot but they do not show everything.  They do not show the quality of the Masonic experience and they do not show the growth of the man in the experience.  They also do not show what happens when the West Gate is not properly guarded.  

With that said, it is good to seek improvement in ourselves as well as in the craft itself.  However, I would suggest that rather than propping the door open with ODC programs, we might define what makes Masonry worth while and then focus upon developing that.

Kind Regards -


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