# Scientology



## nixxon2000 (Feb 19, 2014)

Can someone who practices  Scientology become a mason? 

I have a friend that was inquiring about it. 


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## jvarnell (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't know if scientology has a belieff in a SAOTU.  But sure aslong as they do that and he ask the lodge to use his sacred book for the obligation.


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## jvarnell (Feb 19, 2014)

Will L. Ron Hubbard let him??


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## flttrainer (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't think they have a belief in deity. 


Rob Yadouga
Coronado Lodge #1406 - Past Master


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## dfreybur (Feb 19, 2014)

Simply put the question about any religion has the same answer - Masonry does not and will not have any approved or disapproved list of religions.  It's not about that.  There is no exception so this is no exception.  The answer is the same for any religion.  Also with any religion there's the question of whether the candidate would survive the ballot were his religion known.  That's why it's inappropriate to have the question of which religion on the petition form or be asked by the investigation committee.



jvarnell said:


> I don't know if scientology has a belieff in a SAOTU.



Buddhism doesn't address the issue of deity and there are plenty of Buddhist brothers.  They  are the ones who have decided the matter of deity independently.  My  surface understanding of Scientology is it teaches a mechanism of  reincarnation and that it does not dictate a member's choice to  believe in the existence of a supreme being or not.  As such the parallel  with Buddhism applies.  As with Buddhism not all Scientologists will be  able to answer the crucial question with a "yes" but some will and they  will be welcome to join our assemblies.



> But sure as long as they do that and he ask the lodge to use his sacred book for the obligation.



If he's a man of his word it doesn't matter what book is present.  Having his own book is an optional nicety that does not change that.  If he's a member of a non-JCI religion he needs to have come to a point of security in his faith that he does not mind acting out stories from someone else's religion for our degrees to be acceptable to him.  That further tends to come with a point of security in his faith that he does not mind interacting with the VSL from someone else's religion.  So far none of the non-JCI brothers I have encountered have had an issue with swearing an oath on a Bible.


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## vangoedenaam (Feb 19, 2014)

As a member of a sect like scientology, would you be considered a free man?


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## jjjjjggggg (Feb 19, 2014)

Didn't L. Ron Hubbard sanction lying, cheating, and stealing to his followers against the enemies of Scientology? 

Would a follower of Scientology be considered to have the necessary moral character to be a mason?


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## Pscyclepath (Feb 19, 2014)

He would need to satisfactorily answer this question:  o you believe in the one true and living God, and in the immortality of the soul?   It's on the petition, and checked again by the Senior Deacon in the prep room.

Faith is an individual thing.  Masonry doesn't list or blacklist any particular religion, but relies on the way an individual candidate comes to grips with the above question.  The necessary answer is in the affirmative for both questions, however the fellow answers.


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## nixxon2000 (Feb 19, 2014)

I'd be interested to hear if we already have any who are already masons. 

I think the point mentioned about if he believes in a supreme being is a great question. 

However I know that my IC asked me what religion I was during the interview. I guess that might have been his concern. 

I'll have to talk to him when I see him.    


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## Brother_Steve (Feb 20, 2014)

nixxon2000 said:


> However I know that my IC asked me what religion I was during the interview. I guess that might have been his concern.
> 
> Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


You are not allowed to ask that question in my jurisdiction. Is that allowed in your Jurisdiction? That makes me feel uncomfortable.

It's like handing the bullets to your firing squad if the men do not like your answer or they found out you lied to garner favor.


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## dfreybur (Feb 20, 2014)

Brother_Steve said:


> You are not allowed to ask that question in my jurisdiction. Is that allowed in your Jurisdiction? That makes me feel uncomfortable.



Should and actually-is don't always match.  It also makes me uncomfortable.  As with the landmark against discussing sectarian religion in opened tiled lodge meetings it gives too much room for personal pique to give the fraternity a reputation for not living by our claimed principles of religious freedom.

The vast majority of anti-Masons are lunatics.  What we do NOT want is quality guys who bad mouth us the rest of their lives because they saw us claim freedom of religion out of one side of our mouths then saw us reject men over religion out of the other side of our mouths.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 20, 2014)

vangoedenaam said:


> As a member of a sect like scientology, would you be considered a free man?



Point to the specific law that enslaves such a man.


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## CuAllaidh (Feb 20, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> Didn't L. Ron Hubbard sanction lying, cheating, and stealing to his followers against the enemies of Scientology?
> 
> Would a follower of Scientology be considered to have the necessary moral character to be a mason?
> 
> ...



And the Bible sanctions all sorts of nasty acts towards non-believers.... but that's exactly why we don't discuss religion in lodge and why we don't restrict certain religions. Messages taken out of context could mean anything. I don't recall ever seeing L. Ron Hubbard making such sanctions, not saying he didn't, but regardless even if I had, without knowing a heck of a lot more I would not necessarily trust that because the founder of the religion made such a statement that it necessarily meant the followers believe that. 

In the end it should come down to does the man believe in some form of deity, and is he a worthy man. His specific religion is not really important, he could believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care, as long as he is sincere in that belief.


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## CuAllaidh (Feb 20, 2014)

Brother_Steve said:


> You are not allowed to ask that question in my jurisdiction. Is that allowed in your Jurisdiction? That makes me feel uncomfortable.
> 
> It's like handing the bullets to your firing squad if the men do not like your answer or they found out you lied to garner favor.



The question of what religion I was was outright on my petition. Is that right? Well I wasn't rejected due to my religion so... hard to say. Could it be used to reject others based on their religion, potentially.


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## nixxon2000 (Feb 20, 2014)

CuAllaidh said:


> And the Bible sanctions all sorts of nasty acts towards non-believers.... but that's exactly why we don't discuss religion in lodge and why we don't restrict certain religions. Messages taken out of context could mean anything. I don't recall ever seeing L. Ron Hubbard making such sanctions, not saying he didn't, but regardless even if I had, without knowing a heck of a lot more I would not necessarily trust that because the founder of the religion made such a statement that it necessarily meant the followers believe that.
> 
> In the end it should come down to does the man believe in some form of deity, and is he a worthy man. His specific religion is not really important, he could believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care, as long as he is sincere in that belief.



I'm sorry but "Flying Spaghetti Monster" is super funny. 

So more info from my friend. He does believe in a god like person. He's more concerned about the question of religion in the interview. 

As I said I was asked and it was discussed for a short while. 


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## CuAllaidh (Feb 20, 2014)

The mention of FSM was meant to amuse, so no need to apologize for finding it funny, you're not Canadian are you 

As for your friend, I am assuming (and I could be way off base) that you are already a member at a lodge, and that he is considering petitioning that same lodge, you could always bring up the question with your brethren to sound them out on the issue if you think it might possibly be a problem.


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## nixxon2000 (Feb 21, 2014)

Nope not from Canada although we keep getting their weather! 

That's what I was thinking of doing. However from what I gather the questions asked are required by the GL. 

I just don't want to taint the water before they even meet him. He is a good guy but I don't know much about him outside of work. 




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## JohnnyFlotsam (Feb 21, 2014)

vangoedenaam said:


> As a member of a sect like scientology, would you be considered a free man?


"As a member of a sect like <insert religion here>, would you be considered a free man?" 

If we are free to choose anything, it is our choice in what to believe that can not be compromised. Scientology is no exception. No, not even given the allegedly heavy-handed tactics they use against those who "defect".


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Feb 21, 2014)

CuAllaidh said:


> The question of what religion I was was outright on my petition. Is that right?


It is not right.


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## jjjjjggggg (Feb 21, 2014)

> In the end it should come down to does the man believe in some form of deity, and is he a worthy man. His specific religion is not really important, he could believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care, as long as he is sincere in that belief.




And that is the heart of it... well said. 

That was the intention with my line of questions, not so much his religion, but whether or not he is a worthy man. I could care less if he called himself a Satanist... but if he believes his religion tells him to kill children and drink their blood, then I have a big issue! I don't care that he is a Scientologist, but it is a matter of record L. Ron Hubbard was a lying thieving con-man who told his follower to even subvert and infiltrate government institutions to bring down the detractors of Scientology. Hubbard was not a man worthy to enter.


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## Zaden (Feb 21, 2014)

CuAllaidh said:


> And the Bible sanctions all sorts of nasty acts towards non-believers.... but that's exactly why we don't discuss religion in lodge and why we don't restrict certain religions. Messages taken out of context could mean anything. I don't recall ever seeing L. Ron Hubbard making such sanctions, not saying he didn't, but regardless even if I had, without knowing a heck of a lot more I would not necessarily trust that because the founder of the religion made such a statement that it necessarily meant the followers believe that.
> 
> In the end it should come down to does the man believe in some form of deity, and is he a worthy man. His specific religion is not really important, he could believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care, as long as he is sincere in that belief.



Just contributing info here, no disagreement with your statements. It is the individual that matters, not necessarily the founder of his religion.
That said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology)#Policy

One could give the benefit of the doubt and say his policy was misinterpreted, but when you state that those declared as Fair Game can be "deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed." it is pretty easy to "misinterpret". Even his wife seems to have "misunderstood": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout

Again, this says nothing to the character of the ordinary Scientologist, most of them are probably told this stuff is all made up.


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## CuAllaidh (Feb 21, 2014)

Zaden said:


> Just contributing info here, no disagreement with your statements. It is the individual that matters, not necessarily the founder of his religion.
> That said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology)#Policy
> 
> One could give the benefit of the doubt and say his policy was misinterpreted, but when you state that those declared as Fair Game can be "deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed." it is pretty easy to "misinterpret". Even his wife seems to have "misunderstood": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout
> ...





> Nothing in this policy letter shall ever or under any circumstances justify any violation of the laws of the land or intentional legal wrongs




Not defending Scientology here, but I would point out that this seems to indicate that any who went to extremes broke laws of the land and thus violated the policy... so again there are two sides to every story, and thus the religion as a whole should not invalidate an applicant. 

To be clear I am not a fan of Scientology... I just think freedom of religion is an important pillar of our fraternity.


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## Zaden (Feb 23, 2014)

CuAllaidh said:


> [/FONT][/COLOR]Not defending Scientology here, but I would point out that this seems to indicate that any who went to extremes broke laws of the land and thus violated the policy... so again there are two sides to every story, and thus the religion as a whole should not invalidate an applicant.
> 
> To be clear I am not a fan of Scientology... I just think freedom of religion is an important pillar of our fraternity.



Totally agree that it shouldn't invalidate it. Again, just contributing info regarding what he said. There is a lot of fascinating and horrifying stuff about the practice and history of the CoS.


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## CuAllaidh (Feb 28, 2014)

Zaden said:


> Totally agree that it shouldn't invalidate it. Again, just contributing info regarding what he said. There is a lot of fascinating and horrifying stuff about the practice and history of the CoS.



Yup... I can be said that there are fascinating and horrifying things about the practice and history just about any religion.


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