# Subsidies



## Blake Bowden (Feb 4, 2013)

Your thoughts...

[video=youtube;P8G1HIlRppo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P8G1HIlRppo#![/video]​


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## Benjamin Baxter (Feb 4, 2013)

I guess I really didn't understand what was going on with this topic. I assumed that the little guy was getting these, just like the farming conglomerate. Wow!


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## cog41 (Feb 10, 2013)

Most elected officials become instant experts at everything. Our politicians can do Everything from farming, trucking companies, car dealerships, grocer markets, oil and gas drilling, public schools, police officer, prisons, doctor, hospitals, building construction etc.. These folks can do it all and only after a couple years in office. Amazing! Forget sending folks to colleges and trade schools! Put them in politics!


Check out the sugar subsidies. Really?

Our government working hard to spend our money.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 14, 2013)

Sugar subsidies are partially a weapon against Cuba--I'm not joking. Cuban sugar would be much cheaper than US-made, especially cane.


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## BEDickey (Feb 15, 2013)

Subsidies, or the withholding of them, is a weapon in and of it self.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 18, 2013)

Remember, all government action is, ultimately, backed up with violence or the threat of violence, including government acts of "charity", which must be funded by taxes.


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## jvarnell (Feb 18, 2013)

The problem is that all subsidies are use to modify socal behaviour to how someone else thinks.  The oil and gas subsidies are to keep more oil and gas in the ground here for future use.  But there are unintended consequences of figher prices for  fuel here.  The oil and gas industerys only make about 3% on there investment pluse a 2% subsidie.  This is 5% but with the volume that  5% is a lot of money.....  I personaly don't like to make less than 10% on my investments.  So if the oil and gas industerys did not get the subsidie they could go out and pump as much as they want and get a better return.

So I think subsidies and taxes to modify behaviour are bad.


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## jwhoff (Mar 2, 2013)

David Boaz!

Say, you don't think Ruth and Naomi are in on this scam?  

Is this information new to anyone? 

Does anyone think this is any different than subsidies for:

big oil 
pharmaceuticals
insurance 
congressional and senatorial districts living off military and naval bases
automotive
financial institutions
firearms manufacturers and dealers

Come on people.  We are fast leaving the national state and moving into the time of the corporate state.  Wake up. This has been explained to all who will listen for decades.  Go back and Listen to Ike's last speech to Congress shortly before he left office.  The Threat of the Military Industrial Complex.

You have only yourself to blame for keeping those blinders on! 

Look at the exponential gap developing between the powerful few and the shrinking middle class.  

As long as they keep you fighting among yourselves, they keep you from seeing them.  Divide and conquer.  You, America, have become to easy.  You can't even defend legally yourselves at the polls.  

Really, fighting over which OTHER poor folks you can keep from voting. Really!


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## Michael Hatley (Mar 3, 2013)

*nods, been aware of this a long time.  I went back to get a political science degree, and we studied the farm subsidies in depth in a public policy class.  Just straight out bizarre, and the more you read the policies the more bizarre it looks.  We are even subsidize *foreign* farmers in some instances, like 150 million a year to *Brazilian* cotton farmers.  Google it.  

What it comes down to is that Big Farms have a hell of a lobby which is very adept at capturing the minds of politicians and the hearts of rural voters.

I think most thinking people would agree that subsidies ought to be used in extreme situations to save an industry and have a very, very short sort of sunset clause and a plan for the industry to repay the subsidy.  Thats how we did the auto bail out, which gets yelled about till people are white around the eyes - but the reality is that that is precisely the way you save an industry.  Not this terrible permanent support.  That really is approaching socialism.

Subsidies often come to my mind when people start talking about "entitlements".  That and of course, social security and medicare.  Sadly, what most often I reckon comes to mind to the American voter is welfare, which makes up such a small fraction of our budget that it is practically off the radar entirely with regards to a balanced budget.


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## BryanMaloney (Mar 4, 2013)

jwhoff said:


> Does anyone think this is any different than subsidies for:
> 
> big oil
> pharmaceuticals
> insurance


etc.

Yes, it is different, VERY different. What you cite benefits rich people, which is automatically virtuous. Don't you know that?


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## Rick Clifton (Mar 7, 2013)

*Subsidies  my thoughts*

 After watching the vid, it appears they are...

   Stealing from the Poor, to give to the Filthy RICH.

ie, he would not let us see his JET.:angry:


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## RedTemplar (Mar 7, 2013)

Hmmmm. I thought all this time we were becoming Socialists.  So, now we are Fascists.  It used to be when Republicans were in the White House, we were disciples of Mussolini and with Democrats we were Marxist.  What has caused all this confusion?


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## jwhoff (Mar 7, 2013)

Simple minded folk Brother RedTemplar.  Simple minded folk indeed!

But all of this is alright.  Politics is fast becoming a "contact sport."  

Damn civility ... full speed ahead!  

We are now able to call anyone anything as per our first ammendment rights.


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## jvarnell (Mar 8, 2013)

Subsidies are a socailazation of something to benifit society.  If a law is made it is made for the good of all as deamed by the lawmakers.  The law makers do it to stop busnesses from going off shore.  When the sugar subsidie happened the US was stoping the bankrupsie of US suger farmers because of the dumping of sugar by Cuba.  It was not to line the pockets of the so called rich.  Most subsidies have a sunset clause but congress thinks it is easyer to just continue the subsidies and not get heat from the voters.


The socalled rich are not pulling anymore strings than anyone else.  The word Rich is just a pink elephant that people see and is not there.


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## jwhoff (Mar 10, 2013)

I recommend pure economic courses for us all.  One source is The Learning Company that packages learned academia's front line professors on DVD and CD formats.  These respected authorities teach classes that would take a semester to learn on campus.  The courses are usually 24 to 36 one-hour sessions that you can review at your leisure.  

Dogma is easy to grab and march to.  The pain and gain come from research and knowledge.

One thing is for sure.  The economy goes only as far as the market will bare.  But mind you well, there are tipping points.


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## Rick Clifton (Mar 16, 2013)

http://mises.org/

http://mises.org/media


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## cog41 (Mar 18, 2013)

Rick Clifton said:


> http://mises.org/
> 
> http://mises.org/media





I was wondering if there were any other "readers" out there.


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## jvarnell (Mar 18, 2013)

When I had mico and macro econmics in college I had a socilist for micro and a capitalist type for macro and even though they tried to convince us they were both right i noticed one thing.  It came down to if you were going to take personal responcablity for your decision or blame a failour on some THING else.  The reasion I said thing in caps was it means (Government, Corprations, Rich and on and on and on).  When I got out of college I did very unpleasent jobs that did not pay enough.  But I also started a busness on the side to suplement things.  Because of the unpleasent jobs I learned how to do them better faster and more pleasent.  I learned alot.  I also had a guy that lived next door that told me I was killing my self for the man and that I should not do that. He had the same adatude as the socilist economy teacher.  My next door neighbor from that time is still in the same place saying the same thing 30 years later (Yes I am old) and I have built my self into a far better place.  I did not step on anyone there is always room to go around those who are a victom.  I did not cheat and one I gave all of my self and not holding back.  I always received more than I gave but did not expect anything.  It is the expetation of what you think you are going to get that will make you upset if it doesn't happen.  Some people say they just can't catch a brake, but that is an expectation of what they were going to get.  One time on here I said I wanted to get a golden trowl award and someone said can't expect that it is just given.  I did not expect that but I saw everyone that had in in my lodge always gave everything and expected nothing.  That is how I have always lived and think someday it will happen.

So after all that the reasons for subsidies is to keep farmers, oil producers and any other producers in the US and producing.  It is not the man keeping you down.


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## jwhoff (Mar 18, 2013)

Guess what?  I ain't down either brother.  SO, short of checking net worth, that has to somewhat quell the envy motive.  

I, personally, agree with very few of your Darwinian concepts.  There is abuse in the system.  I see it, I work around it like you.  But that doesn't blind me to that abuse.  "I am, that I am" only works for the divine one.  Who, by the way, thought a helping hand to be a virtue now and again.  The rest of us need to share a little so we can get along a lot.  

It's a tough world.  One needs to learn just a little bit from both the socialists and the capitalist.  Find a medium where all can prosper as to their sweat equity.  But don't stake the cards against them.  Don't forget, you and I are only one catastrophic illness or event away from poverty.

Personally, I bow to neither the alter of socialism or capitalism.  Why?  There's always some power hungry broker out there attempting to gain the unfair advantage.  This thing is not static.  It is dynamic and must be watched and modified along the way.

Ain't this good stuff!  God bless brother.


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## jwhoff (Mar 18, 2013)

Rick Clifton said:


> *Subsidies  my thoughts*
> 
> After watching the vid, it appears they are...
> 
> ...





Well ... if you bow low enough
and, and praise rather than ridicule
leaving him not the least bit
considering any possible guilt
he may ... on a slow day,
mind you ... just maybe
let you stare at it through
the linked fence at the far
end of the runway.

:sneaky2:


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## jvarnell (Mar 18, 2013)

jwhoff said:


> Well ... if you bow low enough
> and, and praise rather than ridicule
> leaving him not the least bit
> considering any possible guilt
> ...



This is exactly what the media wants you to think.  But I want you to think about reasons fro doing what they are doing.  Most socalled rich are not out to screw you but the media picks and chueses to what they will show you so it looks like they are.  The word appears that y'all said is the key "appears" and the reason that they want it to appear that way is they want you to listen to them and need the numbers to get advirsting dollors.  If there was no problem you would not listen to them and they would not get so many dollars to give you only halve truths.


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## jwhoff (Mar 18, 2013)

There's something to be said about that.  There would be no MSNBC nor FOX NEWS otherwise.  

Now there's a reasonable thought!  Oh, I left out the part about being better off without either of them, didn't I?

:thumbup1:


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## jvarnell (Mar 18, 2013)

jwhoff said:


> There's something to be said about that. There would be no MSNBC nor FOX NEWS otherwise.
> 
> Now there's a reasonable thought! Oh, I left out the part about being better off without either of them, didn't I?
> 
> :thumbup1:



I would not stop eather one I would just like it if they had to give full sources instead of just shouting they lie like is done on the Ed show.  That was full sources.


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## jwhoff (Mar 18, 2013)

I'd be very surprised if either could give a source.


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## jvarnell (Mar 20, 2013)

jwhoff said:


> I'd be very surprised if either could give a source.



I beleive Fox could.  In the past I have sent them an email about a story and subject and asked for sources for the story.  I got a list.  you must try it some time.  

Ed of the ED show is being moved to weekend only becasue of low number.  As people see that MSMBC has peoblems they stop watching.  Yes I watch ED, Madow and that other guy until they give the partial truths about things I have first hand facts about.  That is why the avrage time is 2.56 min. I watch each of them.  They play to the low information voters.  It doesn't work for someone that researchs stuff.


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## Rick Clifton (Mar 20, 2013)

I found the first 25 minutes of this to be Very revealing.

  Catherine Austin Fitts: The Looting Of America

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP6rny-E1Cw&feature=youtu.be


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## jvarnell (Mar 25, 2013)

Rick Clifton said:


> I found the first 25 minutes of this to be Very revealing.
> 
> Catherine Austin Fitts: The Looting Of America
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP6rny-E1Cw&feature=youtu.be




Yes you can find anyone saying what you want to hear.  One of the principals America was founded on was personal property.  The only way someone can loot something is if they are steeling from someone else.  Before Teddy Roosevelt the Fedral government was not alowed to own land it was the state.  Taxes are how companies pay for there use of there own property. They are taxed on productivity.  The land was sold and granted to the people who who now own it and use it for there products.  Nothing looted.

Banks use money of depositors and investers to loan to others so the loanies are paying the loaners and banks to administer it.  No looting.

When you think of both of these concepts together I see no looting of anything.  I see someone (Bilateral) or something (Markets) matching up offers and bids and getting paid for that service.  When you listen to these people saying things like this you see the media socializing a process because they are envyous and want a peice.  Everything illegal in the process already has a law agenst it so it can be stoppd and points at who is to blame for breaking the law.  And with this you have to have an entity called a corperation so that you will know who has the final say and goes to jail.  With out a corp. there is no responcable indivaule to point at when a problem arises.

This is where we get into the problem the thread is talking about subsidies.  Since the Government get into the process that stops productivity because of the perseption of looting from us they have to give subsidies to keep the thing going they have stopped.

That is like Bush and Oboma got in the way of the natrual process of bankruptcy in tha last crisis and let it happen and it would have worked out by now. But Labor did not want there contracts to go before a Judge and the Managment wanted to save face that they knew what they were doing, they had to not allow bankrupcy.  A real bankrupcy would have pointed out that Managment was just giving labor everything they ask for because it was the easy way out.


With all that said you have to look at the whole forest and not just one tree the meida wants you to look at.  Without pointing to that one tree the meida would have no store.  Most people will just go to sleep when a bankruptcy is adjudicated and not look at how not to do things and it is not just Labor, Managment or Subsidies it is the metaling of people trying to fix a socalled crisis.

Looting = Tree
Subsidies = Tree
Car company = Tree
Managment = Tree
Labor = Tree
Tree + Tree + Tree + Tree = forest  (I know I left out trees but this is an example)

The problem is the government making the dession which tree is crooked or straight and not just adjudicating the law breakers.


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## Rick Clifton (Mar 25, 2013)

*Catherine Austin Fitts* once found a *single  block in San Diego that had 20 million dollars in Housing and Urban  Development guaranteed loans on buildings that did not even exist.*
*Donald Rumsfeld* told us on September 10th, 2001 that *he could not trace 2.3 trillion dollars in military spending*.

Neither HUGE  Story got much air time on Faux News.
But,
"Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
Mark Twain


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## jvarnell (Mar 28, 2013)

Rick Clifton said:


> *Catherine Austin Fitts* once found a *single  block in San Diego that had 20 million dollars in Housing and Urban  Development guaranteed loans on buildings that did not even exist.*
> *Donald Rumsfeld* told us on September 10th, 2001 that *he could not trace 2.3 trillion dollars in military spending*.
> 
> Neither HUGE  Story got much air time on Faux News.
> ...


I am not sure how the lack of reporting untill the story is veted is a problem.  Then if others are reporting it how do they add value by reporting what others have.  You have pointed out how Fox is serious about reporting they vet a story before reporting on it. MSNBC and ABC have reciently had to resend stuff on the zermiman case because ofnot veting or modifying how they reported it.  It is also why you see stories on FOX that you don't see on the others is because the others are filtered stuff out and FOX reported after veting that they think you need to know about also.  if you don't want to hear thos stories you don't have to listen to them.  You will get more infor if you don't get so upset with the messanger.  that is all a news org should be a messanger that has veted the message.  The  others have proven they edit or change the message.   I watch them all and have found more infofor  each story from FOX with out limiting it..


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## dfreybur (Mar 28, 2013)

When I read the subject line I thought it was a different topic -

Ladies night event.  We're taking the ladies to see a swing band and go dancing because several ladies have mentioned they want that and that's what a ladies night event is about.  Members pay the full price for tickets and dinner.  The lodge subsidizes the price of the tickets and dinner for the ladies.

Past Masters and awards dinner.  Several Past Masters will give speeches and then several will present an award because several PMs have mentioned that what they want and that's what a PM event is about.  Non-PM members pay full price.  The lodge subsidizes the ticket of any PM and his lady.

It's nice that subsidies benefit those who are already active.  If only there were a consistent way to use a subsidy to bring in those who have not been active.  Activity doesn't tend to be about money so generally it can't be purchased.  So we have such events to reward the active.


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