# the Lion, the Bull, the Man, the Eagle



## pointwithinacircle2 (May 23, 2015)

Here is a nice set of symbols whose meanings I have had difficulty discovering.  I realize that I may have wandered off the path into symbols that are more prevalent in the York Rite.  (I am not a member of the SR)  However I am wondering what these symbols mean to the Brothers assembled here.   They have been of little use to me since I have been unable to discern their meanings.  How do these symbols relate to Masonry?  How do you relate to them?   Thanks


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## KSigMason (May 24, 2015)

Here's a few things I've written on the Royal Arch: 

http://www.travelingtemplar.com/2012/10/the-banners-of-royal-arch-masonry.html

http://www.travelingtemplar.com/2012/04/symbols-of-royal-arch-masonry-part-1.html

http://www.travelingtemplar.com/2012/06/symbols-of-royal-arch-masonry-part-2.html


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## coachn (May 26, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Here is a nice set of symbols whose meanings I have had difficulty discovering.  I realize that I may have wandered off the path into symbols that are more prevalent in the York Rite.  (I am not a member of the SR)  However I am wondering what these symbols mean to the Brothers assembled here.   They have been of little use to me since I have been unable to discern their meanings.  How do these symbols relate to Masonry?  How do you relate to them?   Thanks


Brother,  The source of these four  symbols come directly from nature.  They are the four cardinal (seasonal) points of the zodiac (of older times) and are collectively referred to as Cherubim. 

You would see three of the four at any point of the year when looking up into a clear night sky.  Why more people don't see this (connection) is because most people are not trained in astronomical references.


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## dfreybur (May 26, 2015)

coachn said:


> Brother,  The source of these four  symbols come directly from nature.  They are the four cardinal (seasonal) points of the zodiac (of older times) and are collectively referred to as Cherubim.
> 
> You would see three of the four at any point of the year when looking up into a clear night sky.  Why more people don't see this (connection) is because most people are not trained in astronomical references.



And because street lights see to it that many see the constellations so rarely they are not familiar enough to recognize.  And because somewhere along the line comparative mythology as the context for western secular civilization was dropped from the curriculum so kids discuss Star Wars instead of not in addition to the constellations.

One thing the zodiac reminds me of - Precession of the equinoxes.  That leads to calculus which merged two of the liberal arts and sciences.


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## GKA (Aug 2, 2015)

Everyone is familiar with the Zodiac however few are familiar with the Masonic constellations, I suggest you read " Stellar Theology and Masonic Astronomy" by Robert Hewitt Brown.


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## coachn (Aug 2, 2015)

GKA said:


> Everyone is familiar with the Zodiac however few are familiar with the Masonic constellations, I suggest you read " Stellar Theology and Masonic Astronomy" by Robert Hewitt Brown.


Been there, done that. Why would you suggest reading it?


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## GKA (Aug 2, 2015)

In spite of the obvious fact that this publication offers nothing of value to you, there are other brothers who are interested in learning of that which has been written in the golden age of Freemasonry, I doubt that there is anything you have written which compares.


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## LAMason (Aug 2, 2015)

GKA said:


> ...the golden age of Freemasonry...



When was "the golden age of Freemasonry" and why was it "the golden age of Freemasonry".

Just because some crackpot writes a book about some theory he has about the origins of or some connection to Freemasonry, stringing together some events and/or symbols to support the claim does not make it true.  Robert Hewitt Brown was not the first nor will he be the last to do so.

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynihan


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## GKA (Aug 2, 2015)

Perhaps the information is above your station, sorry I confused you


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## GKA (Aug 2, 2015)

I should clarify my point,
Brown is not postulating anything radical or new, he is merely bringing together the popular scientific thought with that of the traditional explanation of the meaning of the Royal Arch.
Every publication I have read, including those officially sanctioned by Grand Chapter state the same conclusions as does Brown.
In fact, it is difficult to find anything written in the 19th century, of which is credible, that holds a contending opinion.
However, your point of opposition is valid in that nobody knows for sure just what any of our symbolism means, having been created over 200 years ago.
Yet, there is a wide conciseness that the majority of information provided by reputable authors is on point.
I am surprised though that this topic should gender such strong opposition to it's possible validity, maybe Brothers just like to argue.


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## Glen Cook (Aug 2, 2015)

GKA said:


> Perhaps the information is above your station, sorry I confused you


Really?  And what, may I ask, is your station?


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## GKA (Aug 2, 2015)

The intended statement was "Beyond" not above,
Simply referring to the perceived unfamiliarity with the York Rite.


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## GKA (Aug 2, 2015)

MM,RAM,SEM,KT


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## coachn (Aug 2, 2015)

GKA said:


> GKA said: ↑
> Everyone is familiar with the Zodiac however few are familiar with the Masonic constellations, I suggest you read " Stellar Theology and Masonic Astronomy" by Robert Hewitt Brown.
> 
> Coach Said:
> ...



My my!  Aren't you the defensive one...  I asked a simple question. Have you no valid reason behind your suggestion?  What's the connection between the book you suggest and the topic at hand?  Can you not provide to the other Brothers who might be interested any supportable or persuadable comments?  It's a big thick book GKA.  Was there nothing within its covers that was worth mentioning within your posts?



GKA said:


> ...I doubt that there is anything you have written which compares.


LOL!  Doubt away GKA.  When you have a set of nine books on Freemasonic Ritual, Origins, Practice and Masonic Application, not just the theater and fabricated lore of Freemasonry, then you might get my attention as someone worthy of such condemnation. 

Until such time, you might want to re-examine what spouts from your zeal-driven fingers as what you currently post appears quite foolish.


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## coachn (Aug 2, 2015)

GKA said:


> Perhaps the information is above your station, sorry I confused you


LOL!  You sure do know how to make friends and influence people buddy. 

Perhaps the information provided is so far below the mud level that some of us don't care to pretend its more than that to put on some false air of pseudo-intelligence.


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## coachn (Aug 2, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Unless of course the "working tools" can be used in a "moral" sense in which case it will be possible to devise repeatable tests for which meanings are true in which reality.
> 
> And having established provisional meanings for some symbols, those symbols can be used to re-structure the local reality - again subject to repeatable experiment.


You do realize that the symbolism applied to the Working Tools was fabricated decades after the initial fabrications of the first three degrees?


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## coachn (Aug 2, 2015)

GKA said:


> ...nobody knows for sure just what any of our symbolism means, having been created over 200 years ago.



Well, when you consider most of them were borrowed to fabricate the ritual plays, it's fairly easy to surmise that they meant something before Freemasonry got a hold of them to put them into their plays.



GKA said:


> ...I am surprised though that this topic should gender such strong opposition to it's possible validity, maybe Brothers just like to argue.


I think you may have some confusion here.  It is neither the topic that is causing arguments, nor the Brothers who respond to your posts.[/quote][/QUOTE]


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## coachn (Aug 2, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Have you considered the difference between an emblem and a symbol?


Yep.  Is a broken record an emblem or a symbol?

How about a cigar? is it an Emblem? a Symbol?  or just a good smoke if ignited?



JamestheJust said:


> Symbols work by their energy connection to the underlying reality.


Have you considered that Symbols are PATTERNS and have no ENERGY whatsoever?  Have you considered the connection that these patterns have with underlying reality are the patterns themselves?  Have you considered the patterns of your thoughts being influenced by the patterns of your desires more than the actual reality of the patterns themselves?  so many things to consider!  Phew!



JamestheJust said:


> This is particularly evident in geometric forms as is often experienced by the brethren setting up the lodge or chapter where the alignment of the furnishings progressively changes the atmosphere in the room.


Define "atmosphere".

and while you're at it, you might want to consider actually responding to the question I asked.


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## coachn (Aug 2, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> I have actually conducted quite lot of experiments on that very matter - using interested brethren.  Most can easily feel the heat in the middle of the Point within the Circle.   They are quite surprised.


LOL!  Sort of like slow acting chili peppers...


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## GKA (Aug 2, 2015)

coachn said:


> LOL!  You sure do know how to make friends and influence people buddy.
> 
> Perhaps the information provided is so far below the mud level that some of us don't care to pretend its more than that to put on some false air of pseudo-intelligence.


Yea, I'm not impressed, some people, justify their existence by expounding the same old hat explanations which still do not answer the questions at hand, how easy it is to attack what you cannot understand, but pleas continue to hide behind your publications,
To some the standard explanations are enough, for others, they are not. You and I are on opposite sides of the fence
I sincerely hope you enjoy your security.


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## coachn (Aug 3, 2015)

GKA said:


> Yea, I'm not impressed, some people, justify their existence by expounding the same old hat explanations which still do not answer the questions at hand, how easy it is to attack what you cannot understand, but pleas continue to hide behind you publications, again NOT IMPRESSED.
> To some the standard explanations are enough, for others, they are not. You and I are on opposite sides of the fence
> I sincerely hope you enjoy your security.


LOL!  You sure like to flatter yourself.


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## GKA (Aug 3, 2015)

No idea what you mean, and I don't see how stating the obvious is self flattery
This is a waste of time
Go to bed


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## LAMason (Aug 3, 2015)

GKA said:


> Perhaps the information is above your station, sorry I confused you



Who were you referring to specifically?

How do you know what their station is?

Why do you think they are confused?


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## Glen Cook (Aug 3, 2015)

GKA said:


> ...
> This is a waste of time
> Go to bed



Ahh, on this much we agree


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## coachn (Aug 3, 2015)

GKA said:


> GKA said: ↑
> Yea, I'm not impressed, some people, justify their existence by expounding the same old hat explanations which still do not answer the questions at hand, how easy it is to attack what you cannot understand, but pleas continue to hide behind you publications, again NOT IMPRESSED.
> To some the standard explanations are enough, for others, they are not. You and I are on opposite sides of the fence
> I sincerely hope you enjoy your security.
> ...



Yes.  This is abundantly clear.



GKA said:


> ...and I don't see how stating the obvious is self flattery



(snicker) Yup, this is abundantly clear too.  Perhaps you should examine your overall and specific assumptions as to who the true target audience is before you spout out what you believe is obvious.



GKA said:


> This is a waste of time



That really does depend upon what the aim is.  It hasn't been a waste for me.  I have obtained much Light as to who you are through your posts.  Thank you!


GKA said:


> Go to bed


I hope that you meant this is what you indended to do and not what you are telling others to do.


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## LAMason (Aug 3, 2015)

GKA said:


> Brown is not postulating anything radical or new, he is merely bringing together the popular scientific thought with that of the traditional explanation of the meaning of the Royal Arch.



So, enlighten us.

What "popular scientific thought" are you referring to?

Which "traditional explanation of the meaning of the Royal Arch" are you referring to?



GKA said:


> Every publication I have read, including those officially sanctioned by Grand Chapter state the same conclusions as does Brown.



Which publication(s) "officially sanctioned by Grand Chapter" are you referring to?

What "conclusions" are you referring to?



GKA said:


> In fact, it is difficult to find anything written in the 19th century, of which is credible, that holds a contending [sic]  opinion.



Have you limited your research to only what was written in the 19th century?



GKA said:


> Yet, there is a wide conciseness [sic] that the majority of information provided by reputable authors is on point.



Who do you consider to be "reputable authors"?

On what particular subject or opinion are you saying "the majority of information provided by reputable authors is on point."?


LAMason said:


> hen was "the golden age of Freemasonry" and why was it "the golden age of Freemasonry".



And again:



LAMason said:


> When was "the golden age of Freemasonry" and why was it "the golden age of Freemasonry".


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## GKA (Aug 3, 2015)

Read the book, or don't I do not care one way or the other
The four symbols are Royal Arch symbols


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## coachn (Aug 3, 2015)

GKA said:


> Read the book, or don't I do not care one way or the other
> The four symbols are Royal Arch symbols


LOL!  So, now Bible Scripture is based upon "The Royal Arch"...  That's an interesting historical twist.  Didn't see that one coming. Amazing.


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## Glen Cook (Aug 3, 2015)

GKA said:


> The four symbols are Royal Arch symbols


......

Amongst others. Note also the use of triplicity.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Aug 3, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> If we could use the "working tools" in a "moral" sense we could prove which statements are true to the GAOTU.


Let's talk about that.  "To use" means to employ, it implies that you do something.  "Working tools" implies that the thing we employ is outside ourselves.  "Moral Sense", well I learned an interesting definition of morality today.  There were two definitions of morality actually.  The first was the standard "adherence to acceptable social standards".  The second and more interesting definition (to me) was "to do that which creates true happiness within oneself" (paraphrased).  I like that definition.  Of course to understand it you have to know the difference between "happiness" and "fun".  Fun is the stuff that is enjoyable right now.  Happiness is when you look at your whole life, the big picture, and are filled with good feelings about who you are.  And really, isn't that the true purpose of morality?  I think so.  Sure, we can pretend it is about other people.  But really, the true purpose, the most real thing about morality is that we sacrifice quick and easy fun so that we can experience ourselves as good people in the long term.  (OK, most of you weren't taught that, and maybe don't believe it, but consider what it really means.)  When you think about it like that, the big picture of what "working tools" you might use to achieve it becomes clearer (at least to me).

So James, that is my guess as to what you are talking about.


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## coachn (Aug 4, 2015)

Happiness is "Chance Contentment".  Ethics are social; Morals are personal.  Societal Laws are Interpersonal Agreements; some of which are based upon Natural Law. When you don't respect Societal Laws, you reap Interpersonal Consequences; some of which are Natural and some of which are Unnatural.  Natural Laws are Principles that provide Natural Consequences; some of which impact Interpersonal Relationships.  When you do not respect Natural Laws, you reap Natural Consequences.  The Working Tools are based upon Natural Laws; laws that affect us personally and interpersonally.  When these natural laws-principles are internalized and understood, they can guide our Choices and Decisions.  When we apply them skillfully and toward beneficial ends, we get beneficial results. This brings Contentment by design; not by chance.

*Going back to the OP: "How do these symbols [the Lion, the Bull, the Man, the Eagle] relate to Masonry? How do you relate to them?* 

I recognize them as *Characterizations of the four Cardinal Seasonal Directions with an ancient Constellations*.  They could also represent qualities that may or may not be things to understand, pursue and adopt in one's life. 

As far as their relationship with Freemasonry goes, they could be used within Morality Plays to  inspire men of any generation to dress up as Knights. ;-)


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## coachn (Aug 4, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> ...That particular eagle is depicted in Masonry as having 2 heads - one looking into the Earth and one out into the Heavens.


Perhaps the two headed eagle is Alluding the Janus and all that his lore implies.  Or perhaps it alludes to before "Order" and after "Chaos".


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## coachn (Aug 4, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> JamestheJust said: ↑
> ...That particular eagle is depicted in Masonry as having 2 heads - one looking into the Earth and one out into the Heavens.
> coachn said: ↑
> Perhaps the two headed eagle is Alluding the Janus and all that his lore implies. Or perhaps it alludes to before "Order" and after "Chaos".
> ...


You write that as if speculation should end.  

Also to note, was your "...That particular eagle is depicted in Masonry as having 2 heads - one looking into the Earth and one out into the Heavens." not a speculation?


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## coachn (Aug 4, 2015)

> JamestheJust said: ↑
> ...That particular eagle is depicted in Masonry as having 2 heads - one looking into the Earth and one out into the Heavens.
> coachn said: ↑
> Perhaps the two headed eagle is Alluding the Janus and all that his lore implies. Or perhaps it alludes to before "Order" and after "Chaos".
> ...


Perhaps, but that was not the question proposed. 

Let me repeat it here for you.  Was your "...That particular eagle is depicted in Masonry as having 2 heads - one looking into the Earth and one out into the Heavens." not a speculation?


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## coachn (Aug 4, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> It was a series of direct observations repeated over 10 years in various contexts.
> 
> With suitably trained people it is possible to have multiple observers of the same inner events.  This allows peer review and that occurred with some of the direct observations.


Okay.  So, you're saying that your statement "...That particular eagle is depicted in Masonry as having 2 heads - one looking into the Earth and one out into the Heavens." was not a speculation.  I get it.  You proved your statement through direct observations repeated over a 10 year period with trained people involved.  Amazing!


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## coachn (Aug 4, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
> Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
> * - Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio *


Your wisdom and insight are astoundingly unbelievable!


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## LAMason (Aug 5, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> It was a series of direct observations repeated over 10 years in various contexts.
> 
> With suitably trained people it is possible to have multiple observers of the same inner events.  This allows peer review and that occurred with some of the direct observations.


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> The military use of remote viewing is another example of systematic and peer-reviewed  inner activity.  Some remote viewing is applied to off-planet contexts.



Did I miss something here ?


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## LAMason (Aug 6, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> The military use of remote viewing is another example of systematic and peer-reviewed  inner activity.  Some remote viewing is applied to off-planet contexts.



...

"The foregoing observations provide a compelling argument against continuation of the program within the intelligence community. Even though a statistically significant effect has been observed in the laboratory, it remains unclear whether the existence of a paranormal phenomenon, remote viewing, has been demonstrated. The laboratory studies do not provide evidence regarding the origins or nature of the phenomenon, assuming it exists, nor do they address an important *methodological issue of inter-judge reliability.*

Further, even if it could be demonstrated unequivocally that a paranormal phenomenon occurs under the conditions present in the laboratory paradigm, these conditions have limited applicability and utility for intelligence gathering operations. For example, the nature of the remote viewing targets are vastly dissimilar, as are the specific tasks required of the remote viewers. Most importantly, the information provided by remote viewing is vague and ambiguous, making it difficult, if not impossible, for the technique to yield information of sufficient quality and accuracy of information for actionable intelligence. Thus, we conclude that continued use of remote viewing in intelligence gathering operations is not warranted."

— Executive summary, "An Evaluation of Remote Viewing: Research and Applications", American Institutes for Research, Sept. 29, 1995


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## dfreybur (Aug 6, 2015)

I pondered the list of animals a bit -

Two wild species on the outside of the list, two domesticated species on the inside of the list.  Two four legged animals to start the list, two two legged species to end the list.  Sharp teeth, dull teeth, small teeth, no teeth.  Salvation, strength, reason, freedom.  I get all sorts of associations as I think about these animals as symbols.


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## Bro. David F. Hill (Aug 6, 2015)

Each one represents one of the 12 tribes of Israel and can be explained deeper if you go through the Royal Arch degrees.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Aug 6, 2015)

Bro. David F. Hill said:


> Each one represents one of the 12 tribes of Israel and can be explained deeper if you go through the Royal Arch degrees.


Thanks for reply.  I have been through all the R.A. degrees.  I remember Reuben and Dan and a couple others.  I heard about them.  But they were just stories with some meaning that I never understood.  I asked, but everyone seemed confused that I thought the stories meant something.  Eventually I just demitted.


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## Bro. David F. Hill (Aug 6, 2015)

Rueben - Man
Dan - Eagle
Judah - Lion 
Ephraim - Ox

To paraphrase: The strength of the Lion, the patience of the Ox, the intelligence of Man, and the swiftness of the Eagle.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Aug 7, 2015)

Are there particular colors that are traditionally associated with each of these symbols?


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## coachn (Aug 7, 2015)

GKA said:


> Did I miss something here ?


Nope.  Nothing at all Bro.


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## Glen Cook (Aug 7, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Are there particular colors that are traditionally associated with each of these symbols?


http://www.royalarchmasonsalberta.c...peslet-library/ram/152-the-royal-arch-banners


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## Bro. David F. Hill (Aug 7, 2015)

White; which is emblematical of that purity of heart and rectitude of conduct which are essential to obtain admission into the divine sanctum sanctorum above.

Scarlet; which is emblematical of fervency and zeal, and the appropriate color of the Royal Arch Degree. 

Purple; which being produced by a due mixture of blue and scarlet, the former of which is the characteristic color of the symbolic, or three first Degrees.

Blue; the peculiar color of the three ancient or symbolical Degrees.


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## coachn (Aug 7, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> One of the difficulties with the loss of the genuine secrets is that brethren have felt obliged to invent explanations.


LOL!  Well, there is some truth to the inventing of explanations BUT these inventions would never have to be put forth if this concept of Genuine Secrets wasn't invented first.


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## coachn (Aug 7, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> It  seems hardly necessary to point out that the ancients were capable of a wide variety of tasks that the current humanity cannot achieve.



It hardly seems necessary to point out that what is invented about these "vaguely referred to" ancients is quite literally fantastical, but yet, here I am pointing it out due to a necessity to keep things real.



JamestheJust said:


> Perhaps there  were and are genuine secrets.



There is no doubt in my mind that there are authentic secrets and genuine secrets sprinkled throughout history.  I simply do not care to hold to any fabrication that a theatrical society can authentically or genuinely lay claim to these secrets through any of its fabricated lore.  Such things are there to lure those who want to believe such things, nothing more AND none of these referred to "secrets" are truly revealed through its theater.

As far as ancients, they used to sacrifice their first born children too.  That's a task among many others that current humanity tries to avoid.


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## coachn (Aug 7, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> ... Personally, I have found that some lodges are prone to such events and others never have them as far as I can detect.



Really?  You appear to have been in these lodges.  You've been asked this countless times, but I figure I'll throw it out there once again and hope for a direct response this time: What Grand Lodge and Lodge do you belong to?  And just so it's really clear, what is your membership affiliation that allows you such access?


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Aug 7, 2015)

Just a couple of questions relative to real secrets.

If a man walks on a tightrope 25 feet off the ground, does he "know" the secret of tightrope walking or does he "do" the secret?  Since everyone understands that the trick to walking on a tightrope is balance does that mean there is no secret to it?  If there is no secret to it why can't I do it?

Balance is merely control of certain forces.  Is the control of force a secret or a skill?  If I desire to possess a skill and despite by best efforts I cannot cultivate it does that mean that it is a secret?

I pose these questions to illustrate a point.  The trick proving something does not exist is to define it so narrowly that there is no possibility of discovering an exemplar.  

Don't even get me started on the topic of whether my favorite Sunday morning theatrical society possesses the real secrets.  I would merely answer that I make a conscious decision to define the "real secrets" broadly enough to admit all men.


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## coachn (Aug 7, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> I keep my anonymity as too often I am attacked personally rather than the issues be addressed.  Not that you would do that


Providing a GL affiliation establishes credibility of Recognition.  Without it, it appears that you are hiding things that put what you share in suspicious light.  You claim much, but provide little to substantiate.  You claim to have attended Lodges, but refuse to share whether these were Recognized Lodges.  Your claim of anonymity appears to be a desire to have asylum from having to back up your claims.  Are you even a Recognized Mason?  Your posts are telling me "no".  The pretense is strong.   Hence my questions.  I am making every effort to provide to you a reasonable doubt.  So far, only questions with what appears to be an effort to outrun accountability are returned.  I remain convinced by you that you are not part of the Recognized Society.


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## Glen Cook (Aug 8, 2015)

I would agree that an unwillingness to even disclose your GL raises suspicion. An offer: I am an attorney. You may send your name and lodge affiliation to me. I will determine if it is regular. I will destroy the information and only communicate whether it is a regular Lodge and GL. 


JamestheJust said:


> I keep my anonymity as too often I am attacked personally rather than the issues be addressed.  Not that you would do that


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## coachn (Aug 8, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> I would agree that an unwillingness to even disclose your GL raises suspicion. An offer: I am an attorney. You may send your name and lodge affiliation to me. I will determine if it is regular. I will destroy the information and only communicate whether it is a regular Lodge and GL.


Awesome Brotherly Offer!  KUDOS Brother Glen!


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## LAMason (Aug 8, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> I would agree that an unwillingness to even disclose your GL raises suspicion. An offer: I am an attorney. You may send your name and lodge affiliation to me. I will determine if it is regular. I will destroy the information and only communicate whether it is a regular Lodge and GL.



That is a great offer. Lets see how long it takes him to accept it.

[url=http://www.tickcounter.com/countup/20150808050400am/w252/]Click here to see how long it has been.[/URL]


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## coachn (Aug 8, 2015)

LAMason said:


> That is a great offer. Lets see how long it takes him to accept it.
> 
> [URL='http://www.tickcounter.com/countup/20150808050400am/w252/']Click here to see how long it has been.[/URL]


http://[url=http://www.tickcounter....Click here to see how long it has been.[/url]
[URL='http://[url=http://www.tickcounter.com/countup/20150808050400am/w252/]Click here to see how long it has been.[/url]']I agree.  However, my experience is that individuals who are not part of a Recognized organization tend to withhold this information since whatever they post will automatically be seen in that light.  Furthermore, counter-posts usually and continually point this information out when what is shared is clearly not Mainstream experience, teachings or focus.  How about you?  Have you seen this?  [/URL]


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## LAMason (Aug 9, 2015)

coachn said:


> I agree.  However, my experience is that individuals who are not part of a Recognized organization tend to withhold this information since whatever they post will automatically be seen in that light.  Furthermore, counter-posts usually and continually point this information out when what is shared is clearly not Mainstream experience, teachings or focus.  How about you?  Have you seen this?



The link seems to be broken.


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## coachn (Aug 9, 2015)

LAMason said:


> The link seems to be broken.


What Link?


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## LAMason (Aug 9, 2015)

coachn said:


> What Link?



When you scroll over the text in the post it shows like a link and when you click on it, it says "server not found" so I thought it was a link.  My bad.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 27, 2016)

coachn said:


> Brother,  The source of these four  symbols come directly from nature.  They are the four cardinal (seasonal) points of the zodiac (of older times) and are collectively referred to as Cherubim.
> 
> You would see three of the four at any point of the year when looking up into a clear night sky.  Why more people don't see this (connection) is because most people are not trained in astronomical references.


Very interesting and informative!


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## Mel Knight (Mar 28, 2016)

4 seasons


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 28, 2016)

Mel Knight said:


> 4 seasons


Thanks for the info. I am still fairly new to Masonry and there are many things yet that I don't know.


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## Mel Knight (Mar 29, 2016)

The more we know the more we realize how much we don't know


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 29, 2016)

Mel Knight said:


> The more we know the more we realize how much we don't know


I'm certainly finding this to be true!


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## Bloke (Apr 4, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> I'm certainly finding this to be true!



Me too 

Mind you, I also shock myself on how much I have learned... but then again,see the first statement.

I've stayed out of this thread..


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## Bro MBGellner RAM; 32nd (Mar 10, 2017)

It is easy to become obsessed with a billion explanations of our symbols. The craftsman should reflect on his teachings and works. The deeper meanings will occur to you more over time and with practiced reflection.

In the end, we are but a copy made in an image. And our teachings are to practice this image. It is a sacred truth that if you are a copy; then the one true form exists. We are rough longing to be perfect and by the symbolism of the dialogue the allegory teachings are a prophecy to us that the perfect one does exist.

God is at its center
And we are God's followers.
God calls us a priesthood.
We are the priests. 
We have chosen a side because we choose light. Light is good. And there is no darkness in God.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 10, 2017)

Bro MBGellner RAM; 32nd said:


> The deeper meanings will occur to you more over time and with practiced reflection.


Agreed!


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## Luigi Visentin (Mar 13, 2017)

This is a very special Tetramorph existing in a small Italian church. The fresco close to this image is much more interesting but also this symbol is very particular: the head is the one of the eagle. Unfortunately is very ruined even if it had been restored some years ago. Live image is much better. It looks like an* hieracosphinx* but there are some differences like the horns (bull), the hands that hold the book (the man, which is actually a cherubine) and the halo around the head.


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## Kalkan Kali (Aug 1, 2017)

They represent the four Eras that have been conquered over time. Bull, Eagle,Lion,Man. Now is the Era of the serpent. These symbols are everywhere in ancient art. As one fell another rose, and know we live in the time of the serpent who will conquer the serpent, what symbol will be next.


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## KSigMason (Aug 1, 2017)

Kalkan Kali said:


> They represent the four Eras that have been conquered over time. Bull, Eagle,Lion,Man. Now is the Era of the serpent. These symbols are everywhere in ancient art. As one fell another rose, and know we live in the time of the serpent who will conquer the serpent, what symbol will be next.


What eras would each have represented? I'd like to research this more.


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## BullDozer Harrell (Aug 1, 2017)

KSigMason said:


> What eras would each have represented? I'd like to research this more.


Start here please
http://www.greek-gods.org/mythology/five-ages-of-man.php


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## Kalkan Kali (Aug 2, 2017)

I will not do your work for you but i will assist. Mithras, apis, anu, nor, summer,. These words do not represent your answer, only clues. The most important thing to find is which proceeded which. Or which over thru which. This will give you time, but place is irrelevant because they were everywhere at once, and although each died the bull could be dead in the east and alive in the west at the same time. Repeat do not bog yourself down with place only time as it relates to each place. also see my album for clues. (Happy hunting)?????













Lionbull



__ Kalkan Kali
__ Aug 2, 2017


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## BullDozer Harrell (Aug 2, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> This is an interesting proposition as it seems to require that some entities exist outside of God.  Thus God is not the total of existence.
> 
> It may be valuable to consider the application of Tzimtzum in a Christian context - for example as a Divine out-breath followed by an in-breath.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzimtzum


Can you Christianize the Lurianic Kabalah concept, Tzimtzum and not confuse yourself?

Personally i'm so against the syncretism that's often attempted in esoteric philosophies.


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## Bloke (Aug 2, 2017)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> ...Personally i'm so against the syncretism that's often attempted in esoteric philosophies.



Be that as it may be, synchetism is often just there and has been for many hundreds. if not thousands of years..


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## Elexir (Aug 3, 2017)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> Can you Christianize the Lurianic Kabalah concept, Tzimtzum and not confuse yourself?
> 
> Personally i'm so against the syncretism that's often attempted in esoteric philosophies.



Actully more then one kabalah (as the word only means tradition).
Jewish Kabalah, Christian Cabala, Hermetic Qabalah and a few distinct forms of qlipothic kabalah are the ones I know of.


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## Kalkan Kali (Aug 3, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Be that as it may be, synchetism is often just there and has been for many hundreds. if not thousands of years..


So true. I will never understand those who try to marginalize, instead of homogenize knowledge. Not to say that all homogenization is correct, but even in the attempt one can find things long hidden that connect not only correctly, but beautifully. Greek, Roman, Sumerian, and Egyptian mythology are often time viewed as fanciful story telling. If one were to only look closer they would find that these "stories" are allegorical.
If you believe in the Bible as a whole, and by whole I do mean that which is there and that which was left out. You must come to the conclusion that "all that is there, is not all that there is". We know this for fact. If all knowledge is already known, these discussions would be non existent.


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## Luigi Visentin (Aug 3, 2017)

Elexir said:


> Actully more then one kabalah (as the word only means tradition).
> Jewish Kabalah, Christian Cabala, Hermetic Qabalah and a few distinct forms of qlipothic kabalah are the ones I know of.


Freemasonry of the beginning of 1700 was basically focused on Christian Cabala. To undestand it one must basically read "The harmonia mundi totus" (The Harmony of the World) of Francesco Zorzi (1466-1540), an Italian very popular in England too, but also other texts of Christan cabbalists. The concepts of Christian Cabala were used to overlap the ancient Masonic learnings giving to Freemasonry the modern form.


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## Elexir (Aug 3, 2017)

Luigi Visentin said:


> Freemasonry of the beginning of 1700 was basically focused on Christian Cabala. To undestand it one must basically read "The harmonia mundi totus" (The Harmony of the World) of Francesco Zorzi (1466-1540), an Italian very popular in England too, but also other texts of Christan cabbalists. The concepts of Christian Cabala were used to overlap the ancient Masonic learnings giving to Freemasonry the modern form.



Considering that freemasonry (atleast in its modern form) come from a Christian culture it should come as No real suprise.


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