# No mixed vouchers?



## DPK42 (May 19, 2014)

This seems odd to me so I will ask you all! I am not a mason and have not petitioned yet because I was told I needed 2 masons to vouch for me. It was my initial understanding that the first important requirement was a belief in God (or higher power, supreme being). With that being said, I would think that masonry as a whole would accept and treat good men equally. However, apparently all men are not "created equal" which blew my mind! I want to join a specific "white lodge" in my area but the guy who I first inquired about masonry to is a PHA Mason, therefore he would be my first voucher (so I thought). When I asked the Secretary about it, he told me that a PHA Mason would not count! I was so shocked that I just thanked him and walked away!! I know racism still exists (unfortunately), but if any organization would be accepting of everyone equally, I would think it would be freemasonry as a whole. Can someone please explain this to me? Thanks in advance!

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## Blake Bowden (May 19, 2014)

If the tables were turned and you went to a PHA Lodge, the same would happen as well. In this particular situation, it isn't racism but recognition.


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## DPK42 (May 20, 2014)

Thanks, that's a great answer but it raises another question. If it's a recognition thing, then how can white men be accepted into PH lodges and vice versa if they can't even vouch for each other?

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## Blake Bowden (May 20, 2014)

An African-American can petition a "mainstream" Lodge just as a white guy can a Prince Hall Lodge. Recognition isn't about skin color.


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## MarkR (May 20, 2014)

They are separate, autonomous Grand Lodges.  Your vouchers must belong to the Grand Lodge of the Lodge you're petitioning, even if the Grand Lodge of State and PHA Grand Lodge recognize each other.  In Minnesota, your top-line signer must belong to the lodge you're petitioning, the second signer can belong to another GLoMinnesota lodge.


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## DPK42 (May 20, 2014)

Thanks for these answers! To be honest I was a little uneasy about that issue (although I wasn't going to let it stop me). It just made me wonder about what was really going on since the Secretary who told me did not offer any kind of explanation. I feel much better now!

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## crono782 (May 20, 2014)

In my jurisdiction, your "top line" signers (your two main recommenders) are from the lodge being petitioned, while the other three recommenders (yes, three more), can be from other jurisdictions provided there is recognition (I don't have my law book on hand, but I'm curious to see the specifics of article 394).

In your case, there may not be PHA recognition and thus, the PHA mason you met could not vouch for you. It is almost certainly a two way street and would not work vice versa. Like was said, it isn't about race, it is about recognition. Just like a member of, say, a PHO lodge wouldn't be able to recommend a member to a PHA lodge as they aren't in amity.


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## dfreybur (May 20, 2014)

The California petition has two lines for members of the exact lodge you are petitioning and two lines for character witnesses.  I handed my form to 2 old friends who were 50-year PHA Masons.  They read the headings on the lines and signed as character witnesses.  That's not a matter of race, not a matter of recognition.  It's a matter of having signatories who are qualified for the line they are signing on.  You petition to join a specific lodge so of course at least one signatory needs to be a member of that exact lodge.

You don't list what state you're in so I'll guess it is Texas from the Dallas Cowboy helmet in your avatar image.  Texas does have recognition.  The questions to ask are - Does the top line signer need to be a member of this exact lodge or any Mason?  Does the second line signer need to be a member of this exact lodge, any lodge in this jurisdiction, or any Mason?  If any Mason then your PHA friend should be able to sign as your second line signer.

That would be a good test to see if we live up to our own values, wouldn't it?  I hold high expectations and my brothers have nearly always lived up to them.  Go for it.  I predict we won't disappoint.


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## DPK42 (May 20, 2014)

@dfreybur I live in Virginia and want to join Alexandria-Washington Lodge #22. I grew up in New Mexico where you were either a Raiders fan or a Cowboys fan! I appreciate the info though (from everyone)!!

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## phulseapple (May 20, 2014)

Alexandria-Washington is an awesome lodge.  George Washington is listed as the first master under it's Virginia Charter, it had previously been under the Provincial Grand Lodge of Pa.


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## MarkR (May 21, 2014)

phulseapple said:


> Alexandria-Washington is an awesome lodge.  George Washington is listed as the first master under it's Virginia Charter, it had previously been under the Provincial Grand Lodge of Pa.


My understanding is that they were under the Grand Lodge of Scotland.


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## phulseapple (May 21, 2014)

MarkR said:


> My understanding is that they were under the Grand Lodge of Scotland.


Not according to their history page.  http://aw22.org/history.html  My understanding is that the Provincial Grand Lodges of NY, NJ and PA were all related to the Grand Lodge of England before the split, however I could be mistaken.


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## Brother JC (May 21, 2014)

DPK42, you forgot NM's other team, the Broncos. A lot of orange in the northern part of the state.
Best of luck on your Journey. AW22 would be an amazing lodge to be a part of.


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## DPK42 (May 21, 2014)

@trysquare I grew up in southern NM (Las Cruces) and didn't see one Broncos fan in the area for 17 years! I can understand northern NM though. Now that we lost DeMarcus Ware to the Broncos they will be much better on defense...lol

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## tomasball (May 21, 2014)

You need two masons who are members of the lodge you want to join to vouch for you.  You also need to list three references who are Masons.  I can't see why the references can't be members of the MWPHGLOT.  It is a recognized Grand Lodge, even if we can't visit.  Probably a good subject for a Grand Master Question.


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## tomasball (May 21, 2014)

I should add, my observations apply to the Grand Lodge of Texas.


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## Tony Uzzell (May 21, 2014)

I was in DC a few years back for the NEA convention and my wife and I visited the George Washington Masonic Memorial (where Alexandria-Washington Lodge meets) and I was invited to a meeting of the Lodge by one of the docents at the Memorial. Unfortunately, we had a convention commitment the evening of the Lodge meeting, but I would have loved to go. Maybe next time I'm in the area, my schedule will be a bit more accommodating.

TU


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## MarkR (May 22, 2014)

phulseapple said:


> Not according to their history page.  http://aw22.org/history.html  My understanding is that the Provincial Grand Lodges of NY, NJ and PA were all related to the Grand Lodge of England before the split, however I could be mistaken.


No, I confused it with Fredricksburg Lodge #4, where Washington was raised.  That was chartered by GLoS.


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## crono782 (May 23, 2014)

Finally looked it up for GLoTX.. (Art. 394 in the law book) The wording says that the other three are to be members of a lodges chartered by GLoTX or a GL *duly recognized by this GL*. I guess the question is then: what is GLoTX definition of duly recognize? We recognize MWPHGLoTX sooo... does that mean a TX PHA mason could be a recommender. Hmmm...


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## Tony Uzzell (May 24, 2014)

The "recognition" between the Grand Lodge of Texas and the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas is an unprecedented recognition, not because no Grand Lodge recognized a Prince Hall Grand Lodge, but due to the limited nature of that recognition.

Any other Grand Lodge that GLTexas recognizes allows for visitation, communication, and dual membership by affiliation (if the other Grand Lodge allows for that....not all of them do). The "recognition" is only partial. Your question is a good one. Does that limit extend to allowing a PHA Mason to act as a reference for a petitioner? My feeling is we could ask Jurisprudence or we could try to extend the recognition to full and regular recognition by resolution at a Grand Annual Communication.

Or we could just leave it up to the local Lodge to make the determination, but that's not really the right answer.

TU


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## DPK42 (May 27, 2014)

@Tony I am in VA but I imagine this issue is probably everywhere. I like your idea of presenting it at a Grand Annual Communication. It's 2014...come on. All Masons are equal, especially in the eyes of The Grand Architect, right?

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## Tony Uzzell (May 27, 2014)

DPK42 said:


> @Tony I am in VA but I imagine this issue is probably everywhere. I like your idea of presenting it at a Grand Annual Communication. It's 2014...come on. All Masons are equal, especially in the eyes of The Grand Architect, right?
> 
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This issue is everywhere in the former Confederacy, yes. Sadly, just as there are people who still think they are superior to others based on their ethnic heritage, some of those people are our Brothers. And it is a divide that exists everywhere, but it is more prevalent in Dixieland, where those people still hold some sway. It's getting to be less so, but in an organization so steeped in tradition as ours, it's not only our Masonic traditions they cling to with all the might they can muster.

And you also have to remember (and this is not a problem limited to matters of ethnicity) that we do have Brethren who believe they know better than the Grand Architect who is and should be a regular Mason.

TU


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## Bill Lins (May 28, 2014)

DPK42 said:


> @TonyAll Masons are equal, especially in the eyes of The Grand Architect, right?


I don't presume to speak for the Grand Architect, but no- there are regular & recognized Masons and there are clandestine "Masons". This is a particular problem here in Texas- in fact, another clandestine "Grand Lodge" just opened in Houston this past Saturday. Many good men have been conned or "misled" into clandestine Masonry.


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## DPK42 (May 28, 2014)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> I don't presume to speak for the Grand Architect, but no- there are regular & recognized Masons and there are clandestine "Masons". This is a particular problem here in Texas- in fact, another clandestine "Grand Lodge" just opened in Houston this past Saturday. Many good men have been conned or "misled" into clandestine Masonry.


Interesting input...thank you!

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## Bill Lins (May 29, 2014)

To see of what I spoke, check this out:  http://www.myfreemasonry.com/threads/make-room-for-a-new-gl-in-texas.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 27, 2014)

Good luck to you my friend and welcome.


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