# West Gate



## Rttbro (May 6, 2014)

Here's the scenario... Lodge has several new petitioners, which is a good thing. Some of these fellows have attended dinners prior to our meetings, social events, and even some Lodge outings over the past few months. This is great, the Brethren have gotten to know them well and they are already familiar and becoming part of the group... That said, we have one who has petitioned for the sole purpose of qualifying to join a appendant organization, and another who, is certainly a very kind fellow, but quite obviously not of a firm mind (for lack of a better term), a man with the mind of a young child. First line signers... PMs, second line signers and investigating committees, also PMs... Buzz around the water cooler is that both will be favorable recommendations.. The one guy needing his MM to join the other org, and the simple fellow being a relation of a PM "will just be made an EA" with no intent of progressing. Is this for the good of Masonry? My current thinking is that it is not. Am I being too critical? If so many PMs (men I do admire, by the way) are ok with this, then shouldn't I be as well? Am I being intolerant? If so, I do not mean to be...
Dilemma... The other petitioners are already good Masons at heart, even before being initiated, exactly the type of good solid men who will join, be productive and will help the lodge continue into the future... But does one black ball beget another? Does the brother casting that unpopular vote face an impossible future with the Lodge, possibly even requiring a demit and affiliation with another Lodge over it?


Any thoughts would be kindly appreciated...


----------



## crono782 (May 6, 2014)

I think IC's need to be diligent in only favorably recommending men who will not only benefit the Craft, but moreso will be benefitted by the Craft. If everyone concedes that "this guy will probably only ever be an EA", then he might not be a good candidate. Of course, it does come down to the IC in question. That said, it's very hard to foresee what a man will become, especially after being exposed to our tenets, so the man you see on the surface might be very different some day...

Kudos to your candidates that have been already active and social. No doubt they will make fine masons and members of your lodge. As for the guy who wants to join the appendant body, well what does he know? For an outsider looking in, it is easy to say "I wanna be a 32 degree mason" and not really know what it's all about. People have their reasons.. perhaps a grandfather was a member of said body. I'd forgive him his zeal as long as he doesn't shirk his blue degrees after receiving them.

As to the last fellow you mention, well like I said before, usually it comes down the IC and you place your trust in them to make the correct judgments. I think it is perfectly fine to reject a candidate provided there is a solid reason beyond gut feeling. Also are your votes not ballot boxed? Why should casting an unfavorable vote affect your lodge future?

Just some ramblings...


----------



## dfreybur (May 6, 2014)

I have no objections to a man going through the degrees with the goal to join one of the appendent bodies as long as he's open about his intentions.  Pitch him a life/endowed membership so he never has problems with missing his dues bill and wish him well as soon as he delivers his proficiencies.

I don't know how to answer about being of sound mind.  He has to be able to tell if someone is trying to trick him into revealing what happens at the altar during our degrees.  Does he have a good enough heart that he has the internal qualifications?


----------



## RyanC (May 6, 2014)

With


----------



## RyanC (May 6, 2014)

With the one looking to join an appendent body I would vote for, with the hope that maybe he will stick with the blue lodge too. Now the other one, do you think he can not pass on the the other degrees because as you say he is not of a firm mind. Than I would not let him in if that is the case, freemasonry is about studying the Arts and Sciences and if you can't not pass thorough the degrees how can one hope to do that.


----------



## Rttbro (May 6, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> I have no objections to a man going through the degrees with the goal to join one of the appendent bodies as long as he's open about his intentions.  Pitch him a life/endowed membership so he never has problems with missing his dues bill and wish him well as soon as he delivers his proficiencies.
> 
> I don't know how to answer about being of sound mind.  He has to be able to tell if someone is trying to trick him into revealing what happens at the altar during our degrees.  Does he have a good enough heart that he has the internal qualifications?



There is no doubt his heart is in the right place... equally, there is no doubt that he can be easily "tricked". He just wants to "belong", has always wanted to be one of the guys type situation... Likely cannot process the information required to progress, or even that there is any progression... Once initiation has occurred that will probably be enough for him to be satisfied... Our IC seems to think such is the case.


----------



## brother josh (May 6, 2014)

We had a brother petition for the purpose of joining the shrine after he got his mm he did join the shrine but stayed very active in his blue house even taking a chair (I'm going to say that brotherly love along with a pinch of peace and harmony was influence upon his mind you never know hope it all works out for the best let providence guide your decision 


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


----------



## admarcus1 (May 6, 2014)

Rttbro said:


> There is no doubt his heart is in the right place... equally, there is no doubt that he can be easily "tricked". He just wants to "belong", has always wanted to be one of the guys type situation... Likely cannot process the information required to progress, or even that there is any progression... Once initiation has occurred that will probably be enough for him to be satisfied... Our IC seems to think such is the case.



I think this is a really tough one.  As for being tricked, I'm not sure there is anyone really doing any tricking.  It would be so much easier to use Google to find out any secrets.  But I have two other thoughts:

1.  It can be very difficult to ascertain what another person understands, or is capable of understanding.  There are levels of understanding, and perhaps with patient instruction, this individual could learn more than you might expect.
2.  As for stopping at an EA and nothing more - is that really so terrible?  The rush to MM seems to be relatively modern and particularly American, not shared across all of Masonry.  Are we not putting enough value on what it means to be an EA or an FC?  An FC may be more light than an EA, and and MM even further light that FC, but EA is still light.  If his heart is in the right place and he is willing to learn, why not allow him to receive that light?

It is definitely not an easy question.  If I were in your position, I would probably trust the IC.  Perhaps that is the easy way out, but casting a black cube is a serious enough thing that I would only do so if I thought that the acceptance of this man as a brother would harm the lodge.  Its sounds like the opposite may be true, that if he were blackballed it would introduce disharmony.


----------



## dfreybur (May 6, 2014)

My mother lodge has a brother with very bad dyslexia.  So bad he can't memorize.  He worked hard and nearly all members wanted him to advance.  He showed up at practices and eventually there was a practice where all in attendance wanted him to advance.  We opened for proficiency and spoon fed him the words then put his next degree on the calendar.  Then the same process again.  He has since been active enough that he was Hiram Award recipient one year - The California name for the lodge Mason of the Year award.  There isn't a more consistent or harder worker in the lodge.  Specific hurdles can be treated as disabilities.  Many of us have put brothers through the degrees who walk with a cane and can't kneel or who are deaf in their right ear.  We adjust to fit the circumstances and it generally works out just fine.

Whether this would work for the candidate in question I won't venture a guess.  As there seem to be examples for excluding him I wanted to post an example that might suggest including him.  We do want to exclude those who turn into conspiracy theorists and turn against us.  But those who are innocent but slow?  That's a judgment call that could go either way.  Given the context perhaps generosity is called for.  Given the context perhaps private discussion with his kin is called for.


----------



## jvarnell (May 6, 2014)

If the one that everyone thinks will only become an EA really show he is wanting to try and has had a PM talk about what will be expected of him still want to become a MM he should be alowed to try but all work must be done.  The Scotish Rite Hospital may have some sugestions on how to help him with the work and it may take longer for him.   If when I was in first grade my mother had listened to the teachers I would be diging ditches.  But she did not she took me to the Scotish Rite hospital for Dyslectia training and I would not be a Director at a fortune 100 of privetly held company.  I would not have compleeted 197 hours of college and several rearch projects under my belt.  Sometimes people with problem work harder and suprise you.  There are memory tools that could used for most unless they actuly have brain damage.  When someone say they can't do something because they have a problem they have already lost the battle of doing what ever it is.  It did take me the full amout of time to learn the work and I go to the lodge every time they are practcing anything that I am not traveling so when I am going throught the chairs I will be ready.  Give them a chance if they show the passions let them try as many times as it takes.  Now if it is just to get to another body I don't have an opinion and would not black ball them but leave that to the others.


----------



## JJones (May 6, 2014)

My logic is that our job as a lodge to take good men and make them better, therefore, if any petitioners come along that are either not (a.) Good men AND (B.) Expressing a desire to become better men then their goals are not in harmony with the goals of the lodge.  Joining to join another organization conflicts with that goal IMO.

Anyhow, as far as I know a black ball shouldn't hurt the group.  That's just based off what I know here in Texas though.


----------



## Aeelorty (May 6, 2014)

I would dislike the man joining to pass to the shrine's intentions. From the man who is described as slow, it depends on the level of his mental faculties. My could not support a mad man or a fool to become a mason.


----------



## MarkR (May 7, 2014)

We've had a couple of guys join just to become Shriners.  Some, in fact, have never been back to blue lodge.  One, who will tell you he only joined to become a shriner, never misses a meeting and has been lodge secretary now for about 8 years.  You never know.


----------



## otherstar (May 7, 2014)

dalinkou said:


> Are they good men?  If so, proceed according to investigation committee recommendations.
> 
> You never know what might become of either of them.  The may be great Blue Lodge leaders, maybe great Shriners, maybe great Knights....who knows.  One brother plants the seed, another waters, and the harvest yields accordingly.
> 
> ...



I wholly concur. If a man joins the Lodge to move onto another masonic body, he will still have to maintain his blue lodge membership. In every lodge I've been around, there are those brothers who are active in one ore more body than they are the blue lodge, some PMs even do this after they pass out of the East. There are more than a few PMs in every lodge who you hardly ever see after their year in the East. There is room in Freemasonry for all GOOD men. If a candidate meets that basic test, that of being a good man, and that is the thought the IC as well, then why not admit him? He may get into the Blue Lodge and find something there that he likes!


----------



## MasterBulldawg (May 7, 2014)

I too joined to go to the Shrine that was 5 years ago and I still haven't gone to the Shrine and I just had my year in the East.  Once I joined I felt more at home in the Blue Lodge and wanted to help my lodge but it help that I had a great mentor and had me working in the lodge.  As far as the "slow" one goes instead of making him a EA maybe do a friend of lodge deal where his welcomed at all the social events but not a  tiled meeting. 

Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


----------



## jvarnell (May 8, 2014)

MasterBulldawg said:


> As far as the "slow" one goes instead of making him a EA maybe do a friend of lodge deal where his welcomed at all the social events but not a  tiled meeting.
> Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


Why is evryone wanting to help him by hrting him.  It will be a lot of work for the lodge but it will help him become a better man.  Life is like exercise you alwys have to work hard and build to get anywhere.  You are not helping him by saying he can't do it before he trys and he should be alowed to work at it till he makes it or says he is tired of trying.  A operative Mason doesn't cut stone the first day he learns how to first and not all masons advance at the same pace.

You will help him the most by making him do all the work as other have done before him.  It will make him stronger as a man.


----------



## admarcus1 (May 8, 2014)

jvarnell said:


> Why is evryone wanting to help him by hrting him.  It will be a lot of work for the lodge but it will help him become a better man...You will help him the most by making him do all the work as other have done before him.  It will make him stronger as a man.



Not everyone.  If you look through, you will see that many would accept him into the lodge.  My point was that if he was unable to make is to MM, that would be okay with me.  I would see no reason not to let him try.  And yes, the lodge should help him get as far as he is able, hopefully to MM.  As I said earlier, It can be very difficult to ascertain what another person understands, or is capable of understanding, and with patient instruction, this individual could learn more than you might expect.


----------



## MasterBulldawg (May 8, 2014)

jvarnell said:


> Why is evryone wanting to help him by hrting him.  It will be a lot of work for the lodge but it will help him become a better man.  Life is like exercise you alwys have to work hard and build to get anywhere.  You are not helping him by saying he can't do it before he trys and he should be alowed to work at it till he makes it or says he is tired of trying.  A operative Mason doesn't cut stone the first day he learns how to first and not all masons advance at the same pace.
> 
> You will help him the most by making him do all the work as other have done before him.  It will make him stronger as a man.



It was said that he could be easily trick into exposing the secrets of Masons. That is why I would be OK with a friend of lodge deal but not make him a member.  I would have to vote no on him if I could not count on him keeping the secrets safe. 

Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


----------



## jvarnell (May 8, 2014)

MasterBulldawg said:


> It was said that he could be easily trick into exposing the secrets of Masons. That is why I would be OK with a friend of lodge deal but not make him a member.  I would have to vote no on him if I could not count on him keeping the secrets safe.
> Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


Most simple people keep secrets better than others, but that is a determanations of those voting and the obsurvations of those voting.


----------



## admarcus1 (May 8, 2014)

MasterBulldawg said:


> It was said that he could be easily trick into exposing the secrets of Masons. That is why I would be OK with a friend of lodge deal but not make him a member.  I would have to vote no on him if I could not count on him keeping the secrets safe.
> 
> Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App



What secrets could he be tricked into revealing that are not readily available?  It's far easier to look up the modes of recognition online than try to trick someone.  When I was researching Freemasonry when I was thinking about joining, I had to make an effort not to learn those secrets I didn't want to know.  I wish some of these sites would put "Spoiler Alert" on their pages.

To paraphrase what has often been told to me, and what I've read elsewhere - we don't keep these things secret because they are true secrets - they are not.  Keeping are obligation is not to protect the secrets - they are already out.  It is a measure of a man's integrity that he keeps his obligations.  If some individual were to go to the trouble of tricking this man into exposing the secrets of the fraternity, well, shame on him for a)  being a jerk and b) wasting his time doing something unnecessary.

Actual harm to the Fraternity:  Zero


----------



## Rttbro (May 8, 2014)

Brethren, I really want to thank you for all of the responses... The discussion thus far has helped me develop a new understanding of the topics at hand. That said, I would like to elaborate a slight bit in the hopes of further discussion for academic as well as practical purposes...


In my own uneasiness in saying so, I may have understated the extent of one of our petitioners "limitation".  I'm not talking about dyslexia, or a mild learning disability, poor memorization skills, or merely "a bit slow". There would be no doubt at all in accepting such an individual based on their desire for light and enthusiasm for knowledge. We have worked with many a brother with such challenges, and have seen them flourish. We have brothers with great willingness and patience put in time and assist with those who need it, and are in fact, more than happy to do so. It gives me great joy to see such a brother light up when they put in the hard work and then conquer their challenge and shine. In fact we have had dyslexic, and "slow" (for lack of a better term) guys go on the be some of the best Masters, their difficulty in memorization does not limit their ability to be good Masons or to lead. In this case we are talking mild to moderately retarded. I'm not sure he will be able to even simply repeat back the o&o given just a few words at a time, let alone review later and absorb any meaning from it. That said, allowing him to try will certainly bring happiness to him. I have love for this fellow, I want to see him succeed and be happy, and it would be great for him not to be left out anymore. THAT said, I have been present for many discussions among Masons over the years in which we talk about the fact that we can make Masons of those with certain disabilities (some physical, some mental) but we don't make Masons when the Mental deficiency will prevent the understanding of the o&o (whether it be madman, fool, or more as in this case). It is this that has me on the fence... Knowing it to be such, what is my duty?


I still am unclear on this one... My heart breaks for this guy... Please continue to discuss, your thoughts are greatly appreciated!


----------



## admarcus1 (May 8, 2014)

Rttbor, thank you for asking the question.  I think this has been a great discussion.

I guess that in your position, I would voice my concerns privately to the WM.  Again, it can be hard for any one of us to judge what is in another man's heart or mind, and how much he does or does not understand.  If it is the judgement of the IC and WM that this man should be allowed to try, then I would cast a white ball.  Having voiced my concerns, I would feel I had done my duty.


----------



## japool (May 8, 2014)

If he is mild to moderately retarted like you say, do you think that the Initiation would frighten him or put him under any undue stress?


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


----------



## MasterBulldawg (May 8, 2014)

admarcus1 said:


> What secrets could he be tricked into revealing that are not readily available?  It's far easier to look up the modes of recognition online than try to trick someone.  When I was researching Freemasonry when I was thinking about joining, I had to make an effort not to learn those secrets I didn't want to know.  I wish some of these sites would put "Spoiler Alert" on their pages.
> 
> To paraphrase what has often been told to me, and what I've read elsewhere - we don't keep these things secret because they are true secrets - they are not.  Keeping are obligation is not to protect the secrets - they are already out.  It is a measure of a man's integrity that he keeps his obligations.  If some individual were to go to the trouble of tricking this man into exposing the secrets of the fraternity, well, shame on him for a)  being a jerk and b) wasting his time doing something unnecessary.
> 
> Actual harm to the Fraternity:  Zero



That is my point is the simple minded can not keep  the obligations and should not be voted in. But this is MHO.


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


----------



## JJones (May 8, 2014)

> Knowing it to be such, what is my duty?



Better yet, when you start making exceptions then where do you draw the line?  Who knows, we could be accepting anyone that has the money and initiating them in masse here in a few years. /rant

You probably know what is best for your lodge, or at least have an idea.  I could tell you what I'd do in your situation but after judging the other replies in this thread I'd probably come across as an ogre.


----------



## jvarnell (May 8, 2014)

Rttbro said:


> Brethren, I really want to thank you for all of the responses... The discussion thus far has helped me develop a new understanding of the topics at hand. That said, I would like to elaborate a slight bit in the hopes of further discussion for academic as well as practical purposes...
> 
> 
> In my own uneasiness in saying so, I may have understated the extent of one of our petitioners "limitation".  I'm not talking about dyslexia, or a mild learning disability, poor memorization skills, or merely "a bit slow". There would be no doubt at all in accepting such an individual based on their desire for light and enthusiasm for knowledge. We have worked with many a brother with such challenges, and have seen them flourish. We have brothers with great willingness and patience put in time and assist with those who need it, and are in fact, more than happy to do so. It gives me great joy to see such a brother light up when they put in the hard work and then conquer their challenge and shine. In fact we have had dyslexic, and "slow" (for lack of a better term) guys go on the be some of the best Masters, their difficulty in memorization does not limit their ability to be good Masons or to lead. In this case we are talking mild to moderately retarded. I'm not sure he will be able to even simply repeat back the o&o given just a few words at a time, let alone review later and absorb any meaning from it. That said, allowing him to try will certainly bring happiness to him. I have love for this fellow, I want to see him succeed and be happy, and it would be great for him not to be left out anymore. THAT said, I have been present for many discussions among Masons over the years in which we talk about the fact that we can make Masons of those with certain disabilities (some physical, some mental) but we don't make Masons when the Mental deficiency will prevent the understanding of the o&o (whether it be madman, fool, or more as in this case). It is this that has me on the fence... Knowing it to be such, what is my duty?
> ...


I say get an english distionary fromas close to the founding of the mother lodge and see how it defines fool.  This my be the clue.  Words do change meaning over time. An example of that is the word gay in my 1828 dict. And 2005 dict.


----------



## BroBook (May 8, 2014)

A fool is one that says there is no GOD , not one that cannot understand or explain!!!


Bro Book


----------



## Warrior1256 (May 10, 2014)

JJones said:


> My logic is that our job as a lodge to take good men and make them better, therefore, if any petitioners come along that are either not (a.) Good men AND (B.) Expressing a desire to become better men then their goals are not in harmony with the goals of the lodge.  Joining to join another organization conflicts with that goal IMO.
> 
> Anyhow, as far as I know a black ball shouldn't hurt the group.  That's just based off what I know here in Texas though.


I agree. I plan on joining the York Rite as soon as I am raised an MM but I also intend to remain active in my home lodge.


----------

