# PHA and A.F. & A.M Working Together



## lmeeks357

How u gentlemen feel about pha and 4 letter comming together as one ?

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## bupton52

*Re: How long have you been a Master Mason?*



lmeeks357 said:


> How u gentlemen feel about pha and 4 letter comming together as one ?
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Freemason Connect HD mobile app



What do you mean by 4 letter?


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## lmeeks357

*Re: How long have you been a Master Mason?*

Ancient Free and Accepted masons

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## bupton52

*Re: How long have you been a Master Mason?*



lmeeks357 said:


> Ancient Free and Accepted masons
> 
> My Freemasonry HD



It depends on if you are talking about the predominately African American groups that have assumed the right to call themselves freemasons and styled themselves A.F.& A.M. or the brothers from the GL of State where not all of their GLs are designated as A.F. & A.M.


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## lmeeks357

Prince hall is predominantly afican Americans correct? But yes that's what I mean pha and af an am comming together as one unit one grand lodge 

My Freemasonry HD


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## Brother JC

There are those on both sides who want it, and those who don't, for a number of reasons.
When I last attended a Communication of the Grand Lodge of NM, the Grand Master of the MWPHGLoNM said in his speech how he dreamt of the day NM Masons were all under one roof.
I would love to see it, personally, but I hate the thought of anyone losing their history.


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## lmeeks357

History does not have to be destroyed or forgotten my brother,  I believe in "adding" to our legacy as masons but like my wm told me "we have to get rid of the negativity first" 

My Freemasonry HD


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## bupton52

lmeeks357 said:


> Prince hall is predominantly afican Americans correct? But yes that's what I mean pha and af an am comming together as one unit one grand lodge
> 
> My Freemasonry HD



As long as we arent talking about any GLs that have lineage to John G. Jones. AF&AM can be a very inaccurate name to refer to, what I assume you are talking about, the GL of (Insert State here) or "mainstream" GLs. Is that who you are talking about? If so, I don't see it happening but I do think that recognition and visitation in each jurisdiction would help to create a unified freemasonry.


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## lmeeks357

Yes brother that is what I'm referring too,  are u pha ?

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## bupton52

I am a member of the MWPHGLoTX. I am PHA.


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## lmeeks357

Do u get hounded by the brothers in Massachusetts ? Because with all do respect they are the "original" and u guys are affiliates correct? 

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## bupton52

lmeeks357 said:


> Do u get hounded by the brothers in Massachusetts ? Because with all do respect they are the "original" and u guys are affiliates correct?
> 
> My Freemasonry HD



There is no division between any Mass brothers that I know of. Also,Only the lodges are truly affiliated and even then it is only to the GL of that particular state. The grand lodge is not affiliated with anything because it is sovereign. 


S&F
Bro. Byron Upton


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## lmeeks357

Didn't know that ok ok 

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## Brother JC

lmeeks357 said:


> History does not have to be destroyed or forgotten my brother,  I believe in "adding" to our legacy as masons but like my wm told me "we have to get rid of the negativity first"


Some men I have spoken with feel that if Grand Lodges merged, some of their legacy would be forgotten. You're right that it doesn't have to be so, but it is  slippery slope.
And your WM is right, the negativity is killing us.


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## MarkR

I would very much like to see the Prince Hall Grand Lodge and the "George Washington" Grand Lodge of each state become a United Grand Lodge, and it may happen some day, but I doubt I'll live to see it.  As has been stated, there are a lot of people on both sides who would oppose it, for a variety of reasons.


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## Brother JC

United Grand Lodge of New Mexico... that has a nice ring to it. But like you, Brother Mark, I'm not sure i'll ever see it.

Fifty-one Jurisdictional (geographical) areas; who will be the first to do it? Might be a good question for a time-capsule.


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## lmeeks357

U brothers think that the "old heads" have to die out first? I believe that's ridiculous but iv also on many occasions have heard that as well.  And only having to been a mason for a short period of time I'm sure hearing the same things over and over , smh wat ever happen to the points of of profession! U brothers understand?

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## lmeeks357

Points of our profession I mean

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## dfreybur

trysquare said:


> There are those on both sides who want it, and those who don't, for a number of reasons.
> When I last attended a Communication of the Grand Lodge of NM, the Grand Master of the MWPHGLoNM said in his speech how he dreamt of the day NM Masons were all under one roof.
> I would love to see it, personally, but I hate the thought of anyone losing their history.



There is grass roots discussion in Illinois.  Discussing unification has started happening in states that have had recognition for years.  I am of several minds on the topic.

On the one hand the separation should never have happened in the first place so unification heals an old wound.  The model of Antients and Moderns could be a starting point.

On the other hand the PHA lineage is now older than the United States.  It's an ancient and noble heritage at this point.  Should either side want to stay on their own I've reached a point that I'm okay with that.

The model of meeting "under one roof" is an interesting one.  For example I've read that in Washington state the two GLs share office space.  They are literally under one roof without any effect on their parallel heritages.  On a less literal scale the grand lines have attended each others' GL meetings the entire time I've held Illinois affiliation.  On a smaller scale my mother lodge Pasadena 272 owns our building and one of our tenants is Hiram 12 PHA.  Visiting them is a matter of entering a different door upstairs and we've long held our fellowship together Tuesdays after our meetings.


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## lmeeks357

Old habits die hard,  I believe the lessons that are taught which is subduing the passions and improving our self are not yet fully applied.  This subject will always and forever will be a touchy I mean when I petitioned a 4 letter last year I got rejected because of my race and then I go to another one and they accepted me with open arms and lord knows I'm proud to be part of the canvas.

357


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## bupton52

lmeeks357 said:


> Old habits die hard,  I believe the lessons that are taught which is subduing the passions and improving our self are not yet fully applied.  This subject will always and forever will be a touchy I mean when I petitioned a 4 letter last year I got rejected because of my race and then I go to another one and they accepted me with open arms and lord knows I'm proud to be part of the canvas.
> 
> 357



What state are you in?


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## lmeeks357

Nc

357


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## bupton52

lmeeks357 said:


> Nc
> 
> 357



You said that you are "4 letter" and in NC? Are you a member of the GLoNC?


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## lmeeks357

Yes I am brother acient free and accepted masons

357


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## bupton52

lmeeks357 said:


> Yes I am brother acient free and accepted masons
> 
> 357



So you would be considered "mainstream"?


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## lmeeks357

Both r mainstream too me brother honesty

357


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## bupton52

lmeeks357 said:


> Both r mainstream too me brother honesty
> 
> 357



Indeed they are.


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## lmeeks357

But sadly pha lord bless em is still having problems getting recognized in sum states smh 

357


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## bupton52

lmeeks357 said:


> But sadly pha lord bless em is still having problems getting recognized in sum states smh
> 
> 357



Is PHA having a problem? I wasn't aware of that. Do you have the names of the states that have recently submitted for recognition and have been denied? What lodge are you a member of in NC?


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## OES513

Ohio recognizes PHA

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## dfreybur

http://www.grandlodge-nc.org/  NC uses AF&AM
http://www.mwphglnc.com/       NC uses F&AM

http://bessel.org/masrec/phamap.htm  Pray for our Masonic values to prevail in the remaining states.  Brother by brother, jurisdiction by jurisdiction.

Is anyone aware of any upcoming vote in one of the recognizing states?


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## lmeeks357

I'm not for sure what states they are but I will find out brother

357


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## lmeeks357

These are a few south Carolina
Virginia
Ga
West Virginia and there should be three more 

357


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## Virgin Islands Brother

How about this one my Brethren. I'm an African American West Indian. My lodge is AF&AM what would be termed "mainstream". However, we are predominantly African American West Indian. We are not Prince Hall affiliated.

Now when I meet my brothers in Prince Hall. I get questions like, "Why are you in that Lodge?".

I've been told several times, you are a Prince Hall Mason, your just not in a Prince Hall Lodge.

Now, the Caucasian and Middle Eastern Brethren in my lodge prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that all men can live in unity. Congregating in lodge one thing but when that brotherly live continues beyond the temple, that's a beautiful thing to see, the tolerance masonry speaks of executed at its finest.

In regards to the subject of coming together, I remain optimistic. Right now, in the Virgin Islands, there is a Prince Hall Lodge who is severing its ties with Georgia. They will move, if they haven't already, their affiliation to Barbados. This is the same jurisdiction my Lodge falls under. I will, and they will be able to visit. This is a beautiful thing. In recent days past, that was not possible. 

We have a different dynamic of race and cultures here. I've lived in Boston and New York. And I must say race relations in the islands isn't as complicated. However, what I do know is, based on what I have experienced in masonry, it is possible to subdue this topic. Someone said it on this thread, the old guys don't have to die. We, the NOT SO OLD have a say and a right to act. 

All we have to do is speak loudly. This is our masonry in my eyes. The man that raised me made that clear. In fact he feels he has done such a good job in raising MMs that he wants to observe us in action vs dictate them. Sorry I was so long winded but I truly want this one trampled on.

Peace my Brethren


My Freemasonry HD


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## BryanMaloney

Virgin Islands Brother said:


> How about this one my Brethren. I'm an African American West Indian. My lodge is AF&AM what would be termed "mainstream". However, we are predominantly African American West Indian. We are not Prince Hall affiliated.
> 
> Now when I meet my brothers in Prince Hall. I get questions like, "Why are you in that Lodge?".
> 
> I've been told several times, you are a Prince Hall Mason, your just not in a Prince Hall Lodge.



Prince Hall Masonry is a historical aberration, due to a unique flaw in the character of the USA. In no other country was Masonry explicitly divided along racial lines. Only the USA saw fit to institutionalize racism within Freemasonry. Thus, there is no such thing as Prince Hall Masonry in any other country, except if exported from the USA. That anyone would say your are a Prince Hall Mason but just not in a Prince Hall Lodge is every bit as racist as someone saying you could not be a Regular Mason by virtue of your race.


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## BroBook

MarkR said:


> I would very much like to see the Prince Hall Grand Lodge and the "George Washington" Grand Lodge of each state become a United Grand Lodge, and it may happen some day, but I doubt I'll live to see it.  As has been stated, there are a lot of people on both sides who would oppose it, for a variety of reasons.



I would like to see those reasons that they,our leaders would use for not using the working tools to do the work they were created to do.all true brothers are I think already under one GRAND MASTER!!!! So may his will be done. I am Prince Hall,I consider my self Hebrew , I worship at a Baptist church and I love masonry !


My Freemasonry HD


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## BroBook

Virgin Islands Brother said:


> How about this one my Brethren. I'm an African American West Indian. My lodge is AF&AM what would be termed "mainstream". However, we are predominantly African American West Indian. We are not Prince Hall affiliated.
> 
> Now when I meet my brothers in Prince Hall. I get questions like, "Why are you in that Lodge?".
> 
> I've been told several times, you are a Prince Hall Mason, your just not in a Prince Hall Lodge.
> 
> Now, the Caucasian and Middle Eastern Brethren in my lodge prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that all men can live in unity. Congregating in lodge one thing but when that brotherly live continues beyond the temple, that's a beautiful thing to see, the tolerance masonry speaks of executed at its finest.
> 
> In regards to the subject of coming together, I remain optimistic. Right now, in the Virgin Islands, there is a Prince Hall Lodge who is severing its ties with Georgia. They will move, if they haven't already, their affiliation to Barbados. This is the same jurisdiction my Lodge falls under. I will, and they will be able to visit. This is a beautiful thing. In recent days past, that was not possible.
> 
> We have a different dynamic of race and cultures here. I've lived in Boston and New York. And I must say race relations in the islands isn't as complicated. However, what I do know is, based on what I have experienced in masonry, it is possible to subdue this topic. Someone said it on this thread, the old guys don't have to die. We, the NOT SO OLD have a say and a right to act.
> 
> All we have to do is speak loudly. This is our masonry in my eyes. The man that raised me made that clear. In fact he feels he has done such a good job in raising MMs that he wants to observe us in action vs dictate them. Sorry I was so long winded but I truly want this one trampled on.
> 
> Peace my Brethren
> 
> 
> My Freemasonry HD



Yes my Brother Amen Amen Amen


My Freemasonry HD


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## Prince Saif Shallah

Brother,

I am of Latino race, race color or religion should not matter in Masonry. 
I am a proud member of A F A M Lodge Coastal 57 Stonington CT and I say proud because CT was the first state to end Segregation between Mansory. 

Regards!

Prince Saif Shallah 



My Freemasonry HD


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## Brother JC

Great image!


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## Prince Saif Shallah

Thank you


Prince Saif Shallah


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## lmeeks357

Yea that's nice 

357


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## lmeeks357

It is sad that every time I meet a brother of differences in backgrounds, I still get asked the question , are u ph? And I ceep my composure because I know what they are trying to imply, I wish brothers would look past the skin and stop assuming things liks that, Im full African American with a lil indian in me n I'm the happiest af&am mm there is! ;-) its all love and I will continue to be on the square

357


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## Cblack

I have a question...why do people call the GLoStates George Washington GLs...didn't*James Edward Oglethorpe receive the first charter in America in 1734?

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## Bill Lins

Because some are offended by the term "mainstream". It tends to imply that other GLs are inferior.


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## Cblack

I prefer GLoState but to each his own

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## Bill Lins

Cblack said:


> I prefer GLoState


As do I.


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## dfreybur

Cblack said:


> I have a question...why do people call the GLoStates George Washington GLs...didn't*James Edward Oglethorpe receive the first charter in America in 1734?



I think I'm the one who introduced the term on this forum.  I've been using it for many years elsewhere before I encountered this forum.  I'm nearly the only one here who uses the term with any frequency.  I resist using "mainstream" as both family branches are mainstream.  In the case of any one state GLofTX and MWPHAGLofTX work but on occasion I still want terms for the two branches of our family.

You have a good point for Oglethorpe but I wanted a brother whose name brothers will recognize.  Only Masonic history buffs know the name Oglethorpe.
I have an additional reason to prefer Washington over Oglethorpe - W Bro Washington introduced separate sovereignty per state to the US.  He built on the models of the GLs in England, Scotland and Ireland, introducing what became the American doctrine of territorial exclusivity.

The doctrine has been a mixed blessing ever since.  It shows that GLs can function well with no central authority - This has been good for PHA GLs.  It says that GLs hold their own territory - This has been used to hold back PHA recognition.

That and Oglethorpe was of a generation before W Bros Washington and Hall.  Washington and Hall were contemporaries.


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## NativeSteel

I hope to see more intertwining of the two factions. They are my Brothers and i hope they will consider me a Brother of theirs as well!

" SEMPER ANTICUS "


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