# Christianity in Freemasonry



## Purkaple (Mar 31, 2016)

Freemasonry is often a controversial thing in the Church these days, I know.  Why?  Gnostic is a term I've heard used by Christians describing Freemasonry, but... I guess just what might be the reason for this?  If Christianity is truly completely compatible, why is it so widely frowned upon and discouraged these days?  It's like they think Masons all pray to false gods and practice voodoo...


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## goomba (Mar 31, 2016)

This is just my opinion.

Because some people have such a narrow view of Christianity.  They see it as anything outside of their understanding isn't true Christianity.


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## Purkaple (Mar 31, 2016)

Some Christians, sure, but many of these doubters of Masonry's Christian compatibility are very reasonable and perceptionary thinkers, scholars.


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## Mike Martin (Mar 31, 2016)

The answer to the question is that Christians can be just as stupid and easily led as members of any other religion.

Any person willing to live their life without ever looking into what they are being told by others will happily believe almost anything.


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## goomba (Mar 31, 2016)

Purkaple said:


> Some Christians, sure, but many of these doubters of Masonry's Christian compatibility are very reasonable and perceptionary thinkers, scholars.



As are some of the Christian Masons that you are asking.  Also some X think people belonging to Y aren't Z.  Apply this last sentence to just about any situation.  There will be people who are X that are reasonable, thinkers, and scholars.  Very smart people can be wrong.


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## coachn (Mar 31, 2016)

Purkaple said:


> Freemasonry is often a controversial thing in the Church these days, I know.  Why?


It appears that the Church in question has found that it's much easier to focus its group of people against an external cause that cannot be controlled than it is to have them do work upon themselves that is controllable.  This is one of many ways to rally and solidify a group that is otherwise wandering aimlessly and without any true unifying purpose.  It is called, "The addiction to a cause", and it is used within organizations to focus a group's attention on things that will control and focus attention and off things that really do need to be done because those in control know that by doing so, they gain tremendous power AND it masks the shortcomings and addictions of the leadership.

As you might be gathering from my response, Freemasons are not immune from this in any way.  Members within our organization suffer with this all consuming characteristic all too often and unfortunately cause others within our organization to suffer as well and as a result.


Purkaple said:


> Gnostic is a term I've heard used by Christians describing Freemasonry, but... I guess just what might be the reason for this?


Labeling is a well-known way of categorizing, stereotyping and dehumanizing others so that those who are labeling them feel justified with attacking them in ways that would be unconceivable if they were not so labeled.  It is done out of ignorance AND in many cases it is done purposefully to influence others so that those who do the labeling shall gain additional influence over and from those who are ignorant.

Once again, Freemasons are not immune from this in any way.  Members within our organization purposefully create labels to influence members who do not know any better and who would rather have things "simplified" so that they can react to situations that they would rather not think about in depth.


Purkaple said:


> If Christianity is truly completely compatible, why is it so widely frowned upon and discouraged these days?


If you are talking about Freemasonry being frowned upon and discouraged by Christians: It is not all Christians (or believers of other faiths either!) that frown upon and discourage others from joining Freemasonry.  It is only those who know they have a gullible and ignorant  target audience that they can control by spouting these lies and when the audience actually listens to and is moved by their non-sense.  It's a power thing and it does work all too well upon the ignorant and lazy masses.

And...once again, Freemasons are not immune to this.  You have a lot of non-sense being spouted by trusted individuals within our organization who are empowered by gullible and ignorant pre-members and existing members who refuse to dig deeper into issues affecting them and others. 


Purkaple said:


> It's like they think Masons all pray to false gods and practice voodoo...


<sigh> The members of these organizations are mislead by both
1) their unwillingness to do the work necessary to know and be better; and
2) their desire to focus their energies upon supporting things that they know are truly not good for them.​
Once again, freemasons are not immune to this.  It is why Freemasonry and Freemasons are currently struggling unnecessarily with so much non-sense and suffering as both an organization and as individuals.

F&S,

Brother Coach


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## Classical (Mar 31, 2016)

Freemasonry, from what I have experienced of it as a Fellowcraft, is perfectly friendly toward my Christian faith. The problem is with those people who are Fanatics. They are to be found in all religions, including atheism. Fanaticism is the enemy of brotherhood and mutual understanding. Unfortunately, many of my brothers and sisters in Christ have become fanatics. They will not abide any commitment to any organization or idea that is not explicitly of their own churches. They spend their free time denouncing, boycotting, pointing fingers and like activities. Who has time for that, if you're following the Prince of Peace? I sure don't.


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## hanzosbm (Apr 1, 2016)

I think it's a combination of things.  Freemasonry is not a religion, but it certain ties in to many religions.  Likewise, parts of what we do are different than what churches do, and other parts of what we do are private. 
I think that some individuals who do not feel that Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity feel that way because they see us as using some of the same figures and stories but in a different format and therefore feel that we are "doing it wrong" and/or they see that we are private about certain aspects and assume the worst. 
And, as others have pointed out, some of those people are fanatics and extremists, but allow me to toss another label into the mix; literalist.  Some of the nicest, most giving people I've ever met would fall under this label (and yes, Brother Coach, I agree that labels can be dangerous) but to them, there is zero room for anything even slightly outside the lines of what they've been taught.  What we teach is not in conflict with any major religion (that I'm aware of) but it is different, and to some people, different is wrong.


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## Bloke (Apr 1, 2016)

I always just remember this quote
_A Christian life is like a good watch – An open face, busy hands, pure gold, well regulated & filled with good works._

It works for Freemasons as well, rephrasing;

A Freemason should be like a good watch – An open face, busy hands, pure gold, well regulated & filled with good works.


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## Warrior1256 (Apr 2, 2016)

goomba said:


> Because some people have such a narrow view of Christianity. They see it as anything outside of their understanding isn't true Christianity.





JamestheJust said:


> Thus the believer knows that it is not possible to know and is affronted by any that say that they do.
> 
> The knower also does not need the clergy and may not feel obliged to contribute to their upkeep. How dangerous is that!





Mike Martin said:


> The answer to the question is that Christians can be just as stupid and easily led as members of any other religion.





coachn said:


> It appears that the Church in question has found that it's much easier to focus its group of people against an external cause that cannot be controlled than it is to have them do work upon themselves that is controllable.





Classical said:


> problem is with those people who are Fanatics.





hanzosbm said:


> but allow me to toss another label into the mix; literalist. Some of the nicest, most giving people I've ever met would fall under this label (and yes, Brother Coach, I agree that labels can be dangerous) but to them, there is zero room for anything even slightly outside the lines of what they've been taught.


All solid points that I totally agree with.


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## NY.Light.II (Apr 2, 2016)

See Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi's 2016 letter on dialogue with Freemasons 

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/02/dear-brother-masons-full-article-on.html?m=1


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## Warrior1256 (Apr 2, 2016)

NY.Light.II said:


> See Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi's 2016 letter on dialogue with Freemasons
> 
> http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/02/dear-brother-masons-full-article-on.html?m=1


Very interesting article. The article sounds like a dialog between Catholicism and Masonry could be possible.


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## NY.Light.II (Apr 2, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> Very interesting article. The article sounds like a dialog between Catholicism and Masonry could be possible.



I think there will be a rapprochement in this lifetime.


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## Mirza Sultan Ahmad (Apr 3, 2016)

Well! I think question is not whether Christianity and masonry are compatible or not. I went to two freemason places in Washington, there were Crosses in different places. The question should be whether Masonry is compatible with other religions or not.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Apr 3, 2016)

I belong to more than one organization that requires a belief in God but takes no position on religion.  I'm told the Boy Scouts fall into this category as well.  Any former Boy Scouts care to comment?


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## Classical (Apr 3, 2016)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> I belong to more than one organization that requires a belief in God but takes no position on religion.  I'm told the Boy Scouts fall into this category as well.  Any former Boy Scouts care to comment?



You are correct. Boy Scouts are to be Reverent. I'm an Eagle Scout.


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## Brother JC (Apr 3, 2016)

Mirza Sultan Ahmad said:


> I went to two freemason places in Washington, there were Crosses in different places.


Do you mean lodges or something else? And by Washington are you referring to the state or the district?


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## dfreybur (Apr 4, 2016)

Mirza Sultan Ahmad said:


> The question should be whether Masonry is compatible with other religions or not.



Because our degrees tell a story out of the Old Testament, members of non-JCI faiths have to be secure in their faith before petitioning.  There are some details to work through as far as the petition questions go but generally compatible.


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## coachn (Apr 4, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Because our degrees tell a story out of the Old Testament, members of non-JCI faiths have to be secure in their faith before petitioning.  There are some details to work through as far as the petition questions go but generally compatible.


What stories are those?  I'm only familiar with allusions and references to the OT and the use of characters from the OT.


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## dfreybur (Apr 4, 2016)

coachn said:


> What stories are those?  I'm only familiar with allusions and references to the OT and the use of characters from the OT.



Exactly.  The building of King Solomon's Temple is not a story that appears in the Analects of Confucius, the Tao Te Ching of Lao Tsu and so on in any of the scriptures you can think of outside of the JCI family.

The stories only appear in the Old Testament.  As you point out in the OT the references we find are much more brief than the longer versions we learn in our degrees.


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## coachn (Apr 4, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Exactly.  The building of King Solomon's Temple is not a story that appears in the Analects of Confucius, the Tao Te Ching of Lao Tsu and so on in any of the scriptures you can think of outside of the JCI family.
> 
> The stories only appear in the Old Testament.  As you point out in the OT the references we find are much more brief than the longer versions we learn in our degrees.


Thanks!


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## Bloke (Apr 4, 2016)

Mirza Sultan Ahmad said:


> The question should be whether Masonry is compatible with other religions or not.



We should change the language "_with other religions_" might suggest to the casual reader that Freemasonry itself is a religion which we know is not correct..

The question should be "Is Freemasonry compatible with the religious beliefs and membership of churches that Freemasons attend"


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## coachn (Apr 5, 2016)

Bloke said:


> We should change the language "_with other religions_" might suggest to the casual reader that Freemasonry itself is a religion which we know is not correct..
> 
> The question should be "Is Freemasonry compatible with the religious beliefs and membership of churches that Freemasons attend"


*Here are two other ways:* 

_1) The question could be expanded to include whether Masonry is compatible with religions other than the specific one already mentioned._

or more specifically...

_2) The question could be expanded to include whether Masonry is compatible with religions other than Christianity._


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## Bloke (Apr 5, 2016)

It's interesting Coach - here we just don't equate Christianity with Freemasonry. A Bible is a VSL here, which sits beside the Koran which is another VSL. I've only been around a decade, but Melbourne Freemasonry has always had a  strong Jewish presence - which I guess has provided a strong counter point making us aware of our diversity... which we are proud of and are always talking about..


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## Brother JC (Apr 7, 2016)

I'm still trying to figure out where everyone sees "christianity" in Lodge... it's all Old Testament.


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## Glen Cook (Apr 8, 2016)

Brother JC said:


> I'm still trying to figure out where everyone sees "christianity" in Lodge... it's all Old Testament.


Utah Ritual,
 2 Corinthians 5:1
Galatians 6:10
2 Corinthians 13:11


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## goomba (Apr 8, 2016)

Brother JC said:


> I'm still trying to figure out where everyone sees "christianity" in Lodge... it's all Old Testament.



As a Christian I do see Christianity in lodge.  Also being that Christians view the OT as part of our Holy Book (it's also the bulk of our Holy Book as it's much longer than the NT) we interpret and view things from a Christian understanding*.

However, I hope a brother of another religion would also see their religion present.

*This can vary a lot!


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## Mike Martin (Apr 8, 2016)

goomba said:


> As a Christian I do see Christianity in lodge.  Also being that Christians view the OT as part of our Holy Book (it's also the bulk of our Holy Book as it's much longer than the NT) we interpret and view things from a Christian understanding*.
> 
> However, I hope a brother of another religion would also see their religion present.


IF he is Jewish or Muslim you don't need to hope as the OT is the foundation of both of those religions too.

This is why Judaism, Christianity and Islam are called the "Abrahamic faiths" or as the Muslim would have it "People of the Book" .


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## Brother JC (Apr 10, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Utah Ritual,
> 2 Corinthians 5:1
> Galatians 6:10
> 2 Corinthians 13:11


Thanks, Glen. NM is fully OT, and I just noticed that CA is OT/NT/OT. That's the problem with always opening the same way, you never get to hear the other verses!


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## coachn (Apr 10, 2016)

Does the quoting of scripture from a specific faith within a morality play make the organization who puts on those plays the faith of what was quoted?


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## Bloke (Apr 10, 2016)

coachn said:


> Does the quoting of scripture from a specific faith within a morality play make the organization who puts on those plays the faith of what was quoted?



Indeed. Going further, Christians are not even the only ones who view the NT as sacred writings, viz Islam and Bahai, but within ALL 3 views of the NT vary greatly from unquestionable "word" to a faulted document of great merit and from which they draw their teachings...


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## coachn (Apr 11, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Indeed. Going further, Christians are not even the only ones who view the NT as sacred writings, viz Islam and Bahai, but within ALL 3 views of the NT vary greatly from unquestionable "word" to a faulted document of great merit and from which they draw their teachings...


So, you believe that quoting scripture makes you the religion of the scripture you use?


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## Bloke (Apr 11, 2016)

coachn said:


> So, you believe that quoting scripture makes you the religion of the scripture you use?



Obviously not.


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## Bloke (Apr 11, 2016)

That reads a bit snarky on my part. I was agreeing with you that reading a  certain religions text does not make you part of that religion and going further by saying there are scriptures, including the NT which several religions (Bahai, Christianity and Islam) see as sacred writings, but even within a single religion like Christianity, their are diverse views of the New Testament .... with the NT not even being read only by Chistians as a sacred text, other religions seeing JC as a prophet...


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## coachn (Apr 11, 2016)

Bloke said:


> That reads a bit snarky on my part. I was agreeing with you that reading a  certain religions text does not make you part of that religion and going further by saying there are scriptures, including the NT which several religions (Bahai, Christianity and Islam) see as sacred writings, but even within a single religion like Christianity, their are diverse views of the New Testament .... with the NT not even being read only by Chistians as a sacred text, other religions seeing JC as a prophet...


Thanks for clarifying this.


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## dfreybur (Apr 11, 2016)

coachn said:


> So, you believe that quoting scripture makes you the religion of the scripture you use?



I'm not Hindu and I rather like quoting parts of the Bagavat Gita.  I'm not Taoist and I rather like quoting parts of the Tao Te Ching.  I am not Confucian and I rather like quoting parts of the Analects.  And so on down a long time of Sacred Writings.  I definitely don't believe that quoting scripture makes me a member of that religion.

Still, I have met men that when they hear scripture quoted they conclude that religion is intended.  They may or may not have ever thought through why they make that conclusion.


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## NY.Light.II (Apr 13, 2016)

Woe be to him that reads but one book.


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## Joseph Thornton (Jun 10, 2016)

NY.Light.II said:


> Woe be to him that reads but one book.



I see a lot of comments in this thread as intolerant to Christians. The same Christians that you view as intolerant.

As an evangelical Christian I do in fact have a limited view of Christianity. But I equally realize that it is my view and I cannot expect others to view Christianity the same way I do. As a mason I cannot expect other Masons to view God th same way I do.


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## Jason A. Mitchell (Jun 10, 2016)

Purkaple said:


> Freemasonry is often a controversial thing in the Church these days, I know.  Why?  Gnostic is a term I've heard used by Christians describing Freemasonry, but... I guess just what might be the reason for this?  If Christianity is truly completely compatible, why is it so widely frowned upon and discouraged these days?  It's like they think Masons all pray to false gods and practice voodoo...



I think it is less a theological incompatibility and more an institutional to wit. a power incompatibility.  I'd wager those institutions arguing Masonry is incompatible with their beliefs, also hold that one's free time should be predominantly devoted to the church and the church community to the exclusion of all else.


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## Jason A. Mitchell (Jun 10, 2016)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> I belong to more than one organization that requires a belief in God but takes no position on religion.  I'm told the Boy Scouts fall into this category as well.  Any former Boy Scouts care to comment?



I'm Eagle and OA, and I'm disturbed by the increasing number of churches sponsoring troops and extending faith work into the troop, e.g. in Utah Scoutmaster is an LDS calling.


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 10, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> As an evangelical Christian I do in fact have a limited view of Christianity. But I equally realize that it is my view and I cannot expect others to view Christianity the same way I do. As a mason I cannot expect other Masons to view God th same way I do.


Couldn't agree more!


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## Ressam (Jun 11, 2016)

Purkaple said:


> Freemasonry is often a controversial thing in the Church these days, I know.  Why?



The answer is simple, IMHO.
Church is 'open' to everyone.
Freemasonry is -- Society with 'secrets'.
And, when there are -- "the secrets", most of people prefer to -- "Think Negatively" about Freemasonic Secrets. That's why there are controversials.
For example, I also wonder about that. Are "secrets" -- Positive or Negative.


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## Glen Cook (Jun 12, 2016)

Jason A. Mitchell said:


> I'm Eagle and OA, and I'm disturbed by the increasing number of churches sponsoring troops and extending faith work into the troop, e.g. in Utah Scoutmaster is an LDS calling.


I had Scout packs/troops sponsored by Episcopal and Methodist Churches.


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## drw72 (Jun 12, 2016)

Jason A. Mitchell said:


> I'm Eagle and OA, and I'm disturbed by the increasing number of churches sponsoring troops and extending faith work into the troop, e.g. in Utah Scoutmaster is an LDS calling.


I was a Cub Scout and Boy Scout growing up in the 70's-80's and every pack/troop I was in were sponsored by churches and met in church facilities; Catholic and Protestant, Texas and Louisiana.


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## dfreybur (Jun 12, 2016)

Jason A. Mitchell said:


> ... I'm disturbed by the increasing number of churches sponsoring troops and extending faith work into the troop ...



Of course you could always encourage kids to join the Girl Scouts instead.  Years ago that thought about their principles and decided differently than the Boy Scouts.

Boy Scout troops exist that are sponsored by every religion you could name, and a bunch most of us have never heard of.  They reflect the demographics of the local community.  This does not automatically mean members of tiny minority religions are excluded as small troops often form that practice together.

The way the Boy Scouts handle the issue of religion is different than our ways, but it mostly works just fine.


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## drw72 (Jun 12, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Boy Scout troops exist that are sponsored by every religion you could name, and a bunch most of us have never heard of.  They reflect the demographics of the local community.
> The way the Boy Scouts handle the issue of religion is different than our ways, but it mostly works just fine.



Yep, they even have various religious awards....


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## Joseph Thornton (Jun 22, 2016)

Just initiated 2 days ago.

I REALLY appreciated all the Biblical references in the ceremony.  I can see how someone of another faith may not have the same experience I did since I am familiar with the characters, stories, and scriptures.

However I also can't see why anyone would choose to complain or desire a change to Freemasonry having always been this way.


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## Bloke (Jun 22, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> Just initiated 2 days ago.



Congratulations !


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 24, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> Just initiated 2 days ago.
> 
> I REALLY appreciated all the Biblical references in the ceremony.  I can see how someone of another faith may not have the same experience I did since I am familiar with the characters, stories, and scriptures.
> 
> However I also can't see why anyone would choose to complain or desire a change to Freemasonry having always been this way.


Congratulations Brother!


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## DwayneM (Aug 9, 2016)

My late father was a Master Mason and a faithful Catholic. I don't know if someone questioned our parish priest about a eucharistic minister wearing a square-and-compass lapel pin, but evidently my father had a discussion with the pastor and the bishop of our archdiocese where they discussed the compatibility of the two organizations.  The result? Should any well-meaning yet misinformed parishioner raise the objection again, the parish had a letter on file signed by the archbishop saying his membership in the Lodge in no way should preclude my father from serving in any lay ministry, and the archbishop had no objection to my father wearing his masonic ring while serving at the altar.  As my father said, "Being a good Catholic makes me a better Mason, and being a good Mason makes me a better Catholic."

I have heard historical references to Freemasonry's aim to overthrow the papacy, etc., and from my outsider's view of the lodge and the fine men I know as my dad's brothers, I find such references outlandish, to put it kindly.


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## Bloke (Aug 9, 2016)

DwayneM said:


> My late father was a Master Mason and a faithful Catholic. I don't know if someone questioned our parish priest about a eucharistic minister wearing a square-and-compass lapel pin, but evidently my father had a discussion with the pastor and the bishop of our archdiocese where they discussed the compatibility of the two organizations.  The result? Should any well-meaning yet misinformed parishioner raise the objection again, the parish had a letter on file signed by the archbishop saying his membership in the Lodge in no way should preclude my father from serving in any lay ministry, and the archbishop had no objection to my father wearing his masonic ring while serving at the altar.  As my father said, "Being a good Catholic makes me a better Mason, and being a good Mason makes me a better Catholic."
> 
> I have heard historical references to Freemasonry's aim to overthrow the papacy, etc., and from my outsider's view of the lodge and the fine men I know as my dad's brothers, I find such references outlandish, to put it kindly.



Dwayne, you need to look at the history of the Papal States. During the Italian Revolution, Freemasons like Garbaldi and the Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Italy ( note the name of the body) whose name escapes me, did indeed call for the Pope to surrender his temporal kingdom. Then, the Pope was a Political as wel as Spiritual leader who oversaw the Papal States. Indeed they called for that change as Freemasons. Part of the reason the Grand Orient of Italy is regarded as irregular because they did get involved in religion and politics. Of course, that's got nothing to do with Catholics of today like your dad and myself in regular jurisdictions.


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## Ressam (Aug 9, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> The same could be said for Scottish Masonry with its support of the Stewart line, hence the need for a new Grand Lodge in London in 1717.




If I've understand correctly -- politics& religion talks prohibited inside The Lodge.
Outside -- Freemason can be engaged with whatever he want. And Be Politician, of course.


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## Bloke (Aug 9, 2016)

Ressam said:


> If I've understand correctly -- politics& religion talks prohibited inside The Lodge.
> Outside -- Freemason can be engaged with whatever he want. And Be Politician, of course.



Correct. James qualifies it, but if a regular GL, say, formed a Political Party, it would loose recognition. Regular Freemasonry should be apolitical and not endorse a particular religion. Religion and politics are the two prohibited topics in regular lodges. It's part of the reason we stand apart from irregular Freemasonry.  Some European Orients might have a history of engaging in the politics of of the day, but Regular GL's will not


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## coachn (Aug 9, 2016)

> The same could be said for Scottish Masonry with its support of the Stewart line, hence the need for a *new Grand Lodge in London in 1717*.


LOL!  Too Funny!  Time to get out the tin foil hats.


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## Joseph Thornton (Aug 9, 2016)

Bloke said:


> ...Regular Freemasonry should be apolitical and not endorse a particular religion. Religion and politics are the two prohibited topics in regular lodges. It's part of the reason we stand apart from irregular Freemasonry.  Some European Orients might have a history of engaging in the politics of of the day, but Regular GL's will not



Ah, but it has not always been that way correct?

Earliest Masons would have been very religiously connected right? At times I suspect it has taken a bit sway to and from, as lodges felt compelled? (as the topic indicates Christianity in FM)

Same with politics. I assume that in America during the revolution, lodges and Masons would have been very politically active. I am assuming there would be a good deal of plotting and planning taking place during what should have been scheduled lodge meetings?

So we all have to understand, that politics and religion are not discussed during open lodge, as we seek to build on what is the SAME about us, and not fight over what is different. I fully believe many Masonic rules, policies, practices and traditions must be observed and even defended by current membership. But I think when the situation warrants it, some rules SEEM to be guidelines and not so strict?

(still learning)


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## coachn (Aug 9, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> Ah, but it has not always been that way correct?
> 
> Earliest Masons would have been very religiously connected right? At times I suspect it has taken a bit sway to and from, as lodges felt compelled? (as the topic indicates Christianity in FM)
> 
> ...


The romance, she is strong in you.


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 9, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> Ah, but it has not always been that way correct?
> 
> Earliest Masons would have been very religiously connected right? At times I suspect it has taken a bit sway to and from, as lodges felt compelled? (as the topic indicates Christianity in FM)



I cant speak on this as I don't have enough info, as I assume no one truly does...as @coachn mentions below the romance......



Joseph Thornton said:


> Same with politics. I assume that in America during the revolution, lodges and Masons would have been very politically active. I am assuming there would be a good deal of plotting and planning taking place during what should have been scheduled lodge meetings?


From what I have read, and take it for what its worth as no one really knows, but the lodges would not have spoken and plotted openly as there were Masons who were wigs and torries in every town.  They would not have risked it.


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## Joseph Thornton (Aug 9, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I cant speak on this as I don't have enough info, as I assume no one truly does...as @coachn mentions below the romance......
> 
> 
> From what I have read, and take it for what its worth as no one really knows, but the lodges would not have spoken and plotted openly as there were Masons who were wigs and torries in every town.  They would not have risked it.



As I said, I am only making assumptions. But I am pretty sure if I wanted to dig, finding SOMETHING on George Washington and Benjamin Franklin making plans in tavern / lodge wouldnt be a far stretch to connect.


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## Ressam (Aug 9, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> As I said, I am only making assumptions. But I am pretty sure if I wanted to dig, finding SOMETHING on George Washington and Benjamin Franklin making plans in tavern / lodge wouldnt be a far stretch to connect.



IMHO, Freemasons were involved in The Enlightenment.
Scientific-Technical Revolution/Progress. But, IMHO, too early. Firstly, satan must dissappear. Then, Doors to The Universe will be Opened, to Humanity.
Also, "pumping oil" is very primitive way to produce Energy.
It the Basis of The Earth. The Blood. It's not Logical to pump it till the End.
Shortly, IMHO, Freemasonry is not Salvation.
It's just good Gentlemen's Club.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Aug 9, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> That is primarily an English rule commencing in 1717.  European Masonry is not so shy about being involved in social change.


I wonder why in America it's so frowned upon, but in European countries it's not. If im not mistaken, wasnt freemasons involved in the Boston Tea Party, American Revolution, etc. Mainly conflicts that brought about social change ?


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## Ressam (Aug 9, 2016)

Not only "social change".
These 2 things changed everything(!):
1. Nuclear Weapons.
2. Artifical Satellites(space debris).
IMHO -- Freemasonry needs Huge-huge Transformation(Reformation).


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 9, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I wonder why in America it's so frowned upon, but in European countries it's not. If im not mistaken, wasnt freemasons involved in the Boston Tea Party, American Revolution, etc. Mainly conflicts that brought about social change ?


Yes Freemasons were involved in almost every facet of the American revolution....but the fraternity was not!


----------



## Bloke (Aug 9, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> Ah, but it has not always been that way correct?
> 
> Earliest Masons would have been very religiously connected right? At times I suspect it has taken a bit sway to and from, as lodges felt compelled? (as the topic indicates Christianity in FM)
> 
> ...



I'm still learning too 

I think there is an idea Jacobitism(movement to restore Stewart Throne in Scotland and England) was connected with the Craft there and in France looking at England as a political opponent- and later with the Secret Societies Act (English) saw our masonic ancestors distance themselves from politics. Whether perception or reality, i'll let you do your own research and draw your own conclusions. Me, I think Scottish nationalism might have played a role, but as Coach says, there is a lot of romanticism and speculation in that. In the States, you had the Anti-Masonry Political Movement - another pressure which saw our masonic ancestors distance themselves from politics. This is one of the steps we took to ensure Freemasonry was seen as a peaceful, lawful and legitimate organisation and not a group of agitators which in turn did attract respected members, including Protestant Clergy - but also high profile Catholics like Dan O'Connell in the 1700's.

What is interesting to contemplate, is if you think Speculative Freemasonry predates the Protestant Reformation ( but bearing in mind Freemasonry was not a religious institution) was it catholic or heretic in nature ? I dont think will ever know... but I've never seen a "ancient charge" to obey the Pope.... all very interesting.

One thing for sure: people present speculation as fact in this space, but what we would call irregular European Freemasonry has engaged in religious politics and action in ways inconceivable to the regular Freemason. What's also interesting is several early founders of the Craft in South America  were Catholic Clergy, something Rome seems to ignore, but I've only read a bit about the origins on Freemasonry in Sth America.

All interesting stuff. Where Axioms often prove false

And its full of "facts" like wonderful Masons at the Alamo - which fail to mention Santa Anna was also a Freemason


----------



## Ripcord22A (Aug 9, 2016)

Ressam said:


> IMHO, Freemasons were involved in The Enlightenment.
> Scientific-Technical Revolution/Progress. But, IMHO, too early. Firstly, satan must dissappear. Then, Doors to The Universe will be Opened, to Humanity.
> Also, "pumping oil" is very primitive way to produce Energy.
> It the Basis of The Earth. The Blood. It's not Logical to pump it till the End.
> ...





Ressam said:


> Not only "social change".
> These 2 things changed everything(!):
> 1. Nuclear Weapons.
> 2. Artifical Satellites(space debris).
> IMHO -- Freemasonry needs Huge-huge Transformation(Reformation).


Alright you did it...you pissed me off! PLEASE JUST GO AWAY!

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


----------



## Ripcord22A (Aug 9, 2016)

Will one of the admins ban this person, please?

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


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## Dontrell Stroman (Aug 9, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Yes Freemasons were involved in almost every facet of the American revolution....but the fraternity was not!


You dont think the fraternity played a part at all ?


----------



## Dontrell Stroman (Aug 9, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> Did they not have recognition signs?


What are recognition signs ? Can you elaborate please ?


----------



## hanzosbm (Aug 10, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Will one of the admins ban this person, please?
> My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Brother, while I am by no means defending this man, and I would love to see him gone, I would urge you to subdue your passions. You are the master of your thoughts and words, exercise temperance and patience and spread brotherhood.


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## Bloke (Aug 10, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> ...
> I recall a community leader long ago, who would occasionally wake in the morning and rush off to establish an initiative, sometimes contrary to his previous policy.  He would give some reasons that I soon would realize were nonsense.  But when I watched closely I could see that the initiatives were correct.  He did not understand why but when asked did the best he could in justification....



Nice story, but I've actually worked for a guy like that in work too important (to me ) to waste time in that sort of chaos. I still work with him, but have learned to harness his strengths  and control his weaknesses


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 10, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> Brother, while I am by no means defending this man, and I would love to see him gone, I would urge you to subdue your passions. You are the master of your thoughts and words, exercise temperance and patience and spread brotherhood.


And i have been for months now.  We have politely told him not to comment on things he know nothing about.  None of his posts mske any sense.  He doesnt bring any insight to anything.  He is here strictly to stir the pot.  Be got his wish cause those last 2 posts of his reallt ticked me off amd i lost my patience.

MY BROTHERS i appoligize for loosing my patience!

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Aug 10, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Will one of the admins ban this person, please?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



This user has done nothing to warrant further action at this time. In the future, these kinds of requests should be handled via the "Report" feature or via Private Message to an Administrator or Moderator and not in Open Public Forum.


----------



## hanzosbm (Aug 10, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> MY BROTHERS i appoligize for loosing my patience!



It happens to the best of us.  And please understand, my advice was for your benefit, not his.


JamestheJust said:


> Here we have an interested outsider who just might provide some useful observations.  I read his posts with interest.
> 
> I recall a community leader long ago, who would occasionally wake in the morning and rush off to establish an initiative, sometimes contrary to his previous policy.  He would give some reasons that I soon would realize were nonsense.  But when I watched closely I could see that the initiatives were correct.  He did not understand why but when asked did the best he could in justification.
> 
> From that I learned to evaluate propositions independently of the rationale.  I apply that in this case too.


I'm all for different opinions, even when I strongly disagree with them, but this has grown to the point of causing disharmony.  But, I'm not an admin.


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## goomba (Aug 10, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> Recognition signs are those signs - that serve to identify a brother by day as well as by night - as a local ritual tells us.
> 
> If the brethren were "involved in almost every facet of the American revolution... but the fraternity was not" then it follows that the brethren were acting independently of the local lodges.  This situation seems to me to be explainable only by the brethren not being able to recognize each other.



A group of men, who happen to be Masons, can do activities not as a lodge.  Just because Masons are involved doesn't make it Masonic.


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 10, 2016)

BOOOOM!!  GOOMBA hit the nail on the head!! ( great handle by the way and love the avatar)


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## hanzosbm (Aug 10, 2016)

goomba said:


> A group of men, who happen to be Masons, can do activities not as a lodge.  Just because Masons are involved doesn't make it Masonic.


Exactly.  They were also all Christians, that doesn't mean that the American Revolution was planned by the church.


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 10, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> Exactly.  They were also all Christians, that doesn't mean that the American Revolution was planned by the church.


Not true.  Several of the founding fathers didnt identify with any religion.  It was almost as if Masonry was their religion(EVEN THOUGH ITS NOT A RELIGION).  I say this as BFranklin and one of the Adams(cant remember which one) and others said on more then on occasion that religion was a downfall of society.  Obviously thats not a direct quote but u get the idea

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## Ripcord22A (Aug 10, 2016)

Ressam said:


> IMHO -- Freemasonry needs Huge-huge Transformation(Reformation).



Now that ive calmed down lets discuss this Ressam....you are not a Freemason yet you think we need to change how we do things?  How can you have an opinion on something that you have never experienced?  Thats kinda like telling a pilot how to land his jumbo jet cause you read a book about planes once.  Do you understand?   Please sir keep your comments to topics that dont contain the workings of and matters of the craft itself.
If you have an opino on whether a lodge should serve alcohol..ok no big deal.  But to say that we are in contact with aliens or that we need a huge hige tramsformation.....not cool.

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


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## Ressam (Aug 11, 2016)

Greetings, Mr.Madsen!
Nice that you are in good mood!
I just wondered: on what degree are you now(additional)?


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## Ressam (Aug 11, 2016)

There is no need to "have an experience" to -- "have an opinion on something".


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## coachn (Aug 11, 2016)

> There is no need to "have an experience" to -- "have an opinion on something".


LOL!  

*The Blank Space Law:* If there is a blank space to fill, even the most ignorant and naïve among the verbally enabled are compelled to have and fearlessly  share opinions about things of which they have no clue, if for no other reason then to just to fill that space.


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## Ressam (Aug 11, 2016)

Greetings, Coach! 
No "filling"!
It's like:
I'm not lawyer, but, I have an opinion on law.
I'm not accountant, but, I have opinion on accountacy, etc., etc.


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## goomba (Aug 11, 2016)

Ressam said:


> There is no need to "have an experience" to -- "have an opinion on something".



I'll give a crude example, sex.  You can read about it and you can watch it.  But until you have sex you don't grasp it.

It's not that you can't have an opinion or thoughts.  But those thoughts and opinions are very limited.  We all have thoughts about various things we don't know much about.  When we do we should expect the ones in the know to speak out.  I don't know all of the brothers on this site but I do know Coach.  While Coach and I may disagree on a Masonic matter does not change the fact that we are both in the know*.

Mr. Ressam, I ask you to hold back some and listen.  We Masons are proud of our Craft and love to talk about it.  On the flip side we have been on the receiving end of countless conspiracies, lies, and misunderstandings.  At times we can be prickly because of this.

*I admit my knowledge is still limited and pray I always believe it is.


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## goomba (Aug 11, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> BOOOOM!!  GOOMBA hit the nail on the head!! ( great handle by the way and love the avatar)



Thank you brother.


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## Ressam (Aug 11, 2016)

Thanks for the answer, Mr.Goomba!
Probably, yes.
It depends on "the subject"!
Nuclear Engineering, sex,
is different from Law, accountancy and others.


----------



## Ressam (Aug 11, 2016)

But, what's really interesting is that:
Why Mr.Madsen, living in the famous New Mexico state -- does not believe in Extraterrestrial Civilizations!


----------



## Winter (Aug 11, 2016)

I don't want to dogpile on anyone here.  But, that being said, I have to question the motives of a person who insists in frequenting a discussion forum for a particular subject and continually attempts to offer advice and counsel in that subject when they freely admit have no experience in the matter, only an opinion. 

If that person had a sincere desire to be involved in and gain experience in that subject in order to contribute meaningful discussion, I believe they would have done so by now.  But to claim that incorrect observations on the subject matter have merit because a person is permitted to have an opinion on subjects they have no experience in only serve to detract from meaningful discussion. 

I bear you no ill will Ressam, but your cryptic and often outright incorrect replies often only succeed in frustrating those who have come here to discuss Freemasonry. 

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.


----------



## coachn (Aug 11, 2016)

> I'm not lawyer, but, I have an opinion on law.
> I'm not accountant, but, I have opinion on accountacy, etc., etc.


It's clear that you are opinionated and are willing to share your opinion as fact, even when it is abundantly clear to those who know better that you don't know better and that you have no clue as to how you opinion clearly expresses your ignorance.

You are not a Freemason.  Your expressions clearly indicate that you are both ignorant of Freemasonry and that you have drawn false conclusions and developed delusional attitudes toward it.

This post shall not temper you from discontinuing your rubbish burdened posts.  It is to inform you that to continue as you have is read as a sign in itself that you're yourself unsuitable to contribute as you have.

That being said, I must label you "Troll" and once again ignore the rubbish you put forth.


----------



## chrmc (Aug 11, 2016)

Ressam said:


> Greetings, Coach!
> No "filling"!
> It's like:
> I'm not lawyer, but, I have an opinion on law.
> I'm not accountant, but, I have opinion on accountacy, etc., etc.



Now I don't want to be crude, but you know what they say about opinions. They are like a**holes - everybody has one 
Think the point that a number of the guys are trying to make that it is ok to have an opinion and express it. But that doesn't mean that it's a particularly good or informed one. 

Not until you go through a given experience can you really speak to it with some level of authority.


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## Ressam (Aug 11, 2016)

Excuse me, Coach!
Excuse me, Gentlemen!
Didn't want to hurt anyone, really!
Wish everyone -- Strong Health! Prosperity & Happiness!
Coach, I told before that:
I am not "troll"! Really. And don't have intention to do that!
I just want to -- get true, trustable, correct information on Freemasonry. That's all.
Excuse me, again.


----------



## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Aug 11, 2016)

Ressam said:


> Excuse me, Coach!
> Excuse me, Gentlemen!
> Didn't want to hurt anyone, really!
> Wish everyone -- Strong Health! Prosperity & Happiness!
> ...



Ressam,

The creator gave you two ears and but one mouth for a reason. The reason is such that we should listen more than we speak.

I suggest to you as a Moderator and Mason that you do indeed listen to those experienced more than you speak when it comes to Freemasonry. There are many more years of fraternal experience on this site than can be counted, this means to someone who is a eavesdropper to our Craft, that there is a wealth of knowledge and answers to many questions unknown.

I suggest to you now, that you heed to what the majority of members replying within this thread suggest (in many variations) to do a lot more listening.

Stewart


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## Ressam (Aug 11, 2016)

Thanks Mr.Stewart.
I understood.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Aug 11, 2016)

The ignore button is a form of moderation.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Aug 11, 2016)

Ressam said:


> But, what's really interesting is that:
> Why Mr.Madsen, living in the famous New Mexico state -- does not believe in Extraterrestrial Civilizations!


What is your fascination with nukes and so called extraterrestrial creatures and how does this pertain to freemasonry ? I guess what I'm getting at is, maybe you should check out other forums that specialize in those topics.

Sent from my 831C using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


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## Ressam (Aug 11, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> What is your fascination with nukes and so called extraterrestrial creatures and how does this pertain to freemasonry ? I guess what I'm getting at is, maybe you should check out other forums that specialize in those topics.
> 
> Sent from my 831C using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



I just assume that --
Albert Pike, or Benjamin Franklin were "on the contact".


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## NY.Light.II (Aug 11, 2016)

Ressam said:


> I just assume that --
> Albert Pike, or Benjamin Franklin were "on the contact".



Just for the sake of clarity, are you suggesting Franklin and Pike were in contact with aliens? 


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry Pro


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## Ressam (Aug 11, 2016)

Mr.NY Light,
It's only an assumption.
That Aliens helped Humanity make The Scientific-Technical Revolution.
And Freemasons were The Providers.


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## Ressam (Aug 11, 2016)

[Error].


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## Winter (Aug 11, 2016)

Ressam said:


> Mr.NY Light,
> It's only an assumption.
> That Aliens helped Humanity make The Scientific-Technical Revolution.
> And Freemasons were The Providers.


There are forums where theories such as that would be much better received. This is not one of them.  

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Aug 11, 2016)

Ressam said:


> Mr.NY Light,
> It's only an assumption.
> That Aliens helped Humanity make The Scientific-Technical Revolution.
> And Freemasons were The Providers.


 why do you believe this ? Please don't say Wikipedia


----------



## Ripcord22A (Aug 11, 2016)

Ressam said:


> Thanks for the answer, Mr.Goomba!
> Probably, yes.
> It depends on "the subject"!
> Nuclear Engineering, sex,
> is different from Law, accountancy and others.


Incompare it to these people fleeing oppresive regimes and sharia law only to demand from the country that took them in that they chamge their laws to be more like the counrty they justt left

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


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## Bloke (Aug 11, 2016)

Ressam said:


> [Error].



The above is a great synopsis of the posters understanding.


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## Joseph Thornton (Aug 12, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Not true.  Several of the founding fathers didnt identify with any religion.  It was almost as if Masonry was their religion(EVEN THOUGH ITS NOT A RELIGION).  I say this as BFranklin and one of the Adams(cant remember which one) and others said on more then on occasion that religion was a downfall of society.  Obviously thats not a direct quote but u get the idea
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



To me, this could very easily indicate organized religious denominations as untrustworthy, and not necessarily a denial of Christ's divinity. 

Often a negative experience with the church DOES also bring relation to negative view of the whole religion. But doesnt have to.

Keep in mind, I am no expert on Franklin nor do I try to insinuate any authority on him.


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## Chaz (Aug 13, 2016)

Joseph Thornton said:


> To me, this could very easily indicate organized religious denominations as untrustworthy, and not necessarily a denial of Christ's divinity.
> 
> The letter Thomas Jefferson wrote accompanying what's referred to as "The Jefferson Bible" touches upon exactly what you are saying. He basically states that denominations do not represent Christ in the way he understands a christian to be, from reading the New Testament, and as such did not want to be categorized with "Christians".


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## Brother JC (Aug 13, 2016)

@Ressam , just because someone lives in New Mexico doesn't mean they believe in extraterrestrials. Plus, Santa Fe and Roswell are separated by more than just distance; they are almost in different states.


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## drw72 (Aug 24, 2016)

I just happened to be reading "The Constitutions of the Free-Masons (1734)" and thought of the sidebar in this thread about the Freemasons and American Revolution....

From Charge II: ..."So that if a Brother should be a Rebel against the State, he is not to be countenanc’d in his Rebellion, however he may be pitied as an unhappy Man ; and if convicted of no other Crime, though the loyal Brotherhood must and ought to disown his Rebellion, and give no Umbrage or Ground of political Jealousy to the Government for the time being ; they cannot expel him from the Lodge, and his Relation to it remains indefeasible."

So I get from this that the Brotherhood would condemn the rebellion but still support the Brother. I guess it could be likened to "hate the sin, not the sinner."


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## Bro MBGellner RAM; 32nd (Mar 10, 2017)

It is easy to become obsessed with a billion explanations of our symbols. The craftsman should reflect on his teachings and works. The deeper meanings will occur to you more over time and with practiced reflection.

In the end, we are but a copy made in an image. And our teachings are to practice this image. It is a sacred truth that if you are a copy; then the one true form exists. We are rough longing to be perfect and by the symbolism of the dialogue the allegory teachings are a prophecy to us that the perfect one does exist.

God is at its center
And we are God's followers.
God calls us a priesthood.
We are the priests. 
We have chosen a side because we choose light. Light is good. And there is no darkness in God.


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## Ripcord22A (Mar 10, 2017)

Darkeness doesn't exist.....it is the absence of light

Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Bloke (Mar 11, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Darkeness doesn't exist.....it is the absence of light
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app



According to Genesis, wasn't there darkness first, then "Let there be Light"..... if you're into that sort of Book 

**waits to get shot down in full flames**


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## Brother JC (Mar 11, 2017)

Yeah, that does have a familiar ring to it.


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## Ripcord22A (Mar 11, 2017)

Void and lacking form......

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## Bloke (Mar 11, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Void and lacking form......
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app





> The Beginning
> 
> 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
> 
> 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1


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## Ripcord22A (Mar 11, 2017)

Huhhuhhhhuhh ummmmm Molly or coke?

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## Warrior1256 (Mar 11, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Darkeness doesn't exist.....it is the absence of light


Agreed!


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## coachn (Mar 11, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Darkeness doesn't exist.....it is the absence of light
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


Doesn't that truly depend upon how you're defining the word and the metaphoric use of it?


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## Bloke (Mar 11, 2017)

coachn said:


> Doesn't that truly depend upon how you're defining the word and the metaphoric use of it?


Yep. 

It is interesting to note light is often introduced; "Let there be light".... "shine a light on this matter" into a state of darkness, much as we use knowledge being introduced to ignorance. .... not sure what to comment about "sun rises' and "darkness  (night) falls" but there might be something subconscious in this around the sun.... but whether light or darkness is symbols for knowledge, truth, goodness,  will vary depending on which one your discussing and who's discussing it and in what context and in what paradigm....

Coach, do you think there is any absolute truth in this matter ? (Assuming you believe absolute truth exists ? I waiver, but never fully reject it..)


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## flameburns623 (Mar 11, 2017)

Since the overwheling majority of Christian critics of Freemasonry discourage joining the Masons but do NOT often object to the Moose Lodge, the Elks, the Eagles, the Optimists, Amway or other multilevel marketing enterprises, Oddfellows, local parachurch charitable organizations, etcetera--it is disrespectful to assume that most of these churches only discourage Masonic Lodge membership as a means of social control, to husband more of a churchmember's time or money,  etcetera. 

There are organizations,  religious or otherwise, like this: but there are some very very large Christian church bodies which deeply object to only a select number of "_ungodly associations_", with Freemasonry often topping that list.

Until sometime between the two World Wars,  for example,  the Quakers (*Society of Friends*) were noteworthy for several things: "_plain dress_", (they often actually wore garb, bereft of buttons or bright colors, somewhat resembling what the guy on the Quaker Oatmeal box is wearing, tricorner hat and all); "_plain speaking_", (they used the first person singular English pronouns '_thee_' and '_thou_', to avoid exalted or vain affectations such as the use of the first person plural '_you_'; they were militant pacifists: AND, Quakers refused, adamantly, to swear any sort of oath.  

This latter was so deeply rooted in Quaker history--and yet Quakers had played such an important role in American history--that our system of law has been shaped by the Quakers: there are Constitutional provisions for conscientious objection to war,  AND most jurisdictions and states allow people to "_affirm_" a legal document or statement rather than "swear" to such things.

Quakers have changed a whole lot in the past eighty to a hundred years. They are still a "Peace Church", but you don't see many tricorner hats these days, nor hear of anyone who still uses such expressions as "_How art thou_?" in everyday parlance. But, their objections to oath-swearing were adopted by other older Evangelical bodies and can be the first objection that some Christians raise to membership in Masonry.

Other groups are militantly against ecumenical cooperation with non-Christians where possible. (Some of these bodies define "Christian" very narrowly, btw--they may not think theirs is the Only True Church, but they deeply question the salvation of anyone not endorsing a pretty narrow spectrum of theological beliefs. 

Again, joining any organizations which admit "cultists" or non-Christians would be objectionable to such faithful.

Then there are those groups which, having looked at Masonic ritual pretty closely in the past thirty years--the Lutheran Church/Missouri Synod, the Southern Baptist Convention, and Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI of the RCC are among these--and several such Christian bodies or individuals question deeply whether there are not serious compromises with sound Christian theology within our Ritual. 

To name but a few: the graphic nature of the penalties named in our various rituals are seen antithetical to the sort of promises Christians should be uttering.

There is a sense, rightly or wrongly,  that Masonic ritual implies a salvation-by-works theology. 

That Christians are constrained in Freemasonry from their ordinary duty to share the Gospel at all times. 

That Deism and Universalism (meaning, universal salvation for all good hearted people) are readily deduced from the Freemasonic Ritual. 

And that Masonry's alleged historic associations with occultism (Mackey and Aleister Crowley,  for example), and its secrecy make it a body not of "good report", no matter how honorable its individual members may be.

There are other Christian churches, in fact most of them, which do NOT raise these issues and ehich even see Masonry as complementary to Christian living. 

But, these few things I just enumerated are representative of the common objections of some Evangelical groups. AND, btw, of some other faiths, including at least some Orthodox Jews and some Muslims.


----------



## Bloke (Mar 11, 2017)

flameburns623 said:


> Since the overwheling majority of Christian critics of Freemasonry discourage joining the Masons but do NOT often object to the Moose Lodge, the Elks, the Eagles, the Optimists, Amway or other multilevel marketing enterprises, Oddfellows, local parachurch charitable organizations, etcetera--it is disrespectful to assume that most of these churches only discourage Masonic Lodge membership as a means of social control, to husband more of a churchmember's time or money,  etcetera.
> 
> There are organizations,  religious or otherwise, like this: but there are some very very large Christian church bodies which deeply object to only a select number of "_ungodly associations_", with Freemasonry often topping that list.
> 
> ...


Thanks Flame. Some interesting points, but all saying the same thing, incompadibility with a Church, not the Christian Religion, but a Church's view of that religion.


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## Brother JC (Mar 11, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> I note the Christian tradition of a Prince of Peace and a Prince of Darkness.  This might suggest that darkness exists independently.


Or it might suggest the two are inseparably intertwined.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 11, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Some interesting points, but all saying the same thing, incompadibility with a Church, not the Christian Religion, but a Church's view of that religion.


Exactly!


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## coachn (Mar 11, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Coach, do you think there is any absolute truth in this matter ? (Assuming you believe absolute truth exists ? I waiver, but never fully reject it..)


Truth to what matter?  There are so many to choose from here.


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## Elexir (Mar 11, 2017)

An intressting fact here is that the RCC dont have any objection to Scandinavian freemasonry due to the fact that only christians are admitted.

Also of note is that a few priest in the church of Sweden got reported to the church authorities for being Swedish rite freemasons, this led the funny thing that the persons responsible for the investigation got acess to the rituals. People hoped that the rituals would then become public but instead they became classified.


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## Brother JC (Mar 11, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> A very curious theological proposition - that Christ is both dark and light.  You may well be correct but it is an heretical (chosen) position.
> 
> I suspect you have not read the Sumerian version of the princes from which the militarization of the 18th degree arises.
> 
> The 18th degree also has a distinctly heretical Christian overlay.



I wasn't alluding to the two being combined in one Prince, more that the two Princes were intertwined. Equally heretical in some eyes.


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## Bloke (Mar 11, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> I wasn't alluding to the two being combined in one Prince, more that the two Princes were intertwined. Equally heretical in some eyes.


In a Ying and Yang model was what came to my minds eye...


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## flameburns623 (Mar 11, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Thanks Flame. Some interesting points, but all saying the same thing, incompadibility with a Church, not the Christian Religion, but a Church's view of that religion.



Among Christians, those groups most committed to submiiting themselves to either a conservative, systematic theology of the Scriptures,  or the systematic teachings of a tradition (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy), are most likely to have qualms about Freemasonry.

Those who see their faith in messier terms, as providing comfort, solace, meaning, and truths--but NOT Absolute Truth--those who see their faith more as a pilgrimage than as a destination at which they have arrived--are most likely to feel that Freemasonry is compatible with and even helpful to their faith. 

Fowler's Stages of Faith Development may also be relevant here. Fowler's ideas have become popular to help people passing through a faith crises.  Fowler postulated six stages of natural progression of faith. Only a very few ever attain the sixth stage.  Nearly all pass through the first two stages as a natural part of maturing.

As people mature they typically reach what is defined by Dr. Fowler as Stage Three faith, a faith which admits to some areas of uncertainty and of areas of growth -- but, basically people in Stage Three are focused upon discovering The Truth,  and feel themselves in possession of a good portion of this. Only rarely do mature, healthy adults naively  presume themselves in full possession of The Whole Truth--that tends to be the preserve of those fanatics discussed earlier in this thread.  I will return to those in a moment.  

Most Stage Three individuals are aware that others also think that they have The Truth, and that the other's  Truth is a different Truth in some sense. But, they try not to think too deeply or often about this. Those _others_ are just wrong, or at best have some fragments of the Truth. The mature Stage Three individual focuses on living their own Truth. 

This may or may not include becoming a Freemason. Masonry doesn't actively try to deny that "_my Church_" is the One True Church. (Or, the One True Political Party, for that matter: any ideology can become the One Truth for some: even the Lodge, itself).

However, the whole enterprise of bringing men of good will from all sorts of philosophical backgrounds, political beliefs, and faiths is not conducive to a militant conviction that I am right and all y'all are wrong. 

Most who feel this way probably shy clear of the Lodge, and develop good reasons for doing  so. They just join a good church, or some other great Cause, and serve there.  

About half of us, btw, will pass into Fowler's Stage Four: faith crisis. Maybe due to an abusive Church, maybe due to a life tragedy, maybe because we suddenly intuit that we do NOT have *The Truth*: that The Truth either lies elsewhere, or else that the best we can do, in this life, is to find a handful of *truths*--lower-case "*t*"--and use those, as well we can to help others and to serve God.

Around half of us revert  back to Stage Three: we convert to a new Church or religion,  or political cause, we find a new Truth. 

We  find closure to our grief, we resolve the abusive situation.  

We go back to Stage Three -- or may more like Stage 3.5. We are not exactly the same, we have integrated a few elements of Stage Five. 

A few people remain '_stuck_' in Stage Four,  in angry atheism or agnosticism, or in bitterness, resentment of the organization  which failed us, etcetera.  

Freemasonry may snag a few of those, the ones who believe in God but hate Him or at least His Church, or who are disillusioned in the Party or ideology which once represent their One Truth. They may not generally be our best or most effective members. 

And some people remain on the interstices between Stage Three and Stage Four-- chronically on the cusp of a faith crises, which drives them to extremes. Those are the fanatics, and they deserve our compassion,  our sympathy. They are sufferers of a most exquisite torment, ever afraid of losing their Faith, and often directing that fear towards the Lodge (or some other evil--but we experience it as anti-Masonic fervor). 

Because, many, perhaps most Masons probably are numbered among  that other,  nearly-half, of those who pass through Stage Four.  Many of us achieved  Stage Five: we are less focused on having The Truth, more accepting that this life presents us with many, seemingly contradictory truths. We believe, we hope, that somewhere, somehow, someone will reveal to us the Grand Unifying Truth, the thing that will weave together all the other truths.

Meanwhile, however,  we have what we have and do with it what we can. We accept thay tge quest for knowledge and wisdom can be ambiguous, messy at times. But what we have found succors us, strengthens us, and givesus hopevand a desire to help others. 

We glean a few more bytes of wisdom, and we pass those in, in our Lodge, in our service to our families and communities, in the caring and the compassion we show to those need it. In our fraternal charity towards our fellow Lodge Brethren.

As annoying as they can be,  our compassion should include the anti-Masons. We don't have to endorse them nor even engage them: but we can realize what is likely to be driving them,  and we can make them objects of our prayers. 

Hope this helps.


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## Elexir (Mar 12, 2017)

flameburns623 said:


> Among Christians, those groups most committed to submiiting themselves to either a conservative, systematic theology of the Scriptures,  or the systematic teachings of a tradition (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy), are most likely to have qualms about freemasonry



The RCCs problem does not just come from a theological standpoint (I belive it would be easier if it did) but also from geopolitical, there is a lot of Freemasonry in the continent that is downright anti-chatolic and fights politicaly against the vatican.


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## Bloke (Mar 12, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> Is it worth pointing out that Truth is a reification - the turning of a quality (trueness) into an object independent of context or reference point?
> 
> Thus we measure a wall with a plumb line to see if it is true (to the direction of gravity).  But if we move the wall it is unlikely to be true.
> 
> ...


 A platonic view ?

So no absolute truth for you James ?


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## coachn (Mar 12, 2017)

flameburns623 said:


> Among Christians, those groups most committed to submiiting themselves to either a conservative, systematic theology of the Scriptures,  or the systematic teachings of a tradition (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy), are most likely to have qualms about Freemasonry.
> 
> Those who see their faith in messier terms, as providing comfort, solace, meaning, and truths--but NOT Absolute Truth--those who see their faith more as a pilgrimage than as a destination at which they have arrived--are most likely to feel that Freemasonry is compatible with and even helpful to their faith.
> 
> ...


And some of us get to *Stage 6* – _"Universalizing"_ faith: we maturely, thoughtfully and whole-heartedly realize and accept that the church (or religion) is NOT our faith, and it CANNOT even begin to come close to offering us what we need to explore-know-practice it.


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## flameburns623 (Mar 12, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> Is it worth pointing out that Truth is a reification - the turning of a quality (trueness) into an object independent of context or reference point?
> 
> Thus we measure a wall with a plumb line to see if it is true (to the direction of gravity).  But if we move the wall it is unlikely to be true.
> 
> ...



"God" , the Immovable Mover is Absolute Truth.

What "moves" is our apprehension of Him,  our understandings and knowledge of Him.


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## coachn (Mar 12, 2017)

"Reification is part of normal usage of natural language (just like metonymy for instance), as well as of literature, where a reified abstraction is intended as a figure of speech, and actually understood as such."

"But *the use of reification in logical reasoning or rhetoric* is* misleading and usually regarded as a fallacy."
*
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)


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## flameburns623 (Mar 12, 2017)

coachn said:


> And some of us get to *Stage 6* – _"Universalizing"_ faith: we maturely, thoughtfully and whole-heartedly realize and accept that the church (or religion) is NOT our faith, and it CANNOT even begin to come close to offering us what we need to explore-know-practice it.



For me: Church gives me the "fundamentals" which I need to know, explore,  worship, and practice my spirituality, my faith. Like at least one other person here, I am Mormon, so I operate under a schema of multiple Heavens, of continuing Divine Revelation,  with a conviction that Divinely appointed free agency means there are multiple paths. 

I am articulating this more broadly than it is taught within our correlated  ("officially approved") lessons. My personal,  private theology is as likely as not to be informed by ProgMos ("Progressive" Mormons, more often than not on the periphery of what my Church approves,  and who sometimes are outright rebels or dissidents).

I, myself, am not a dissident, btw: just soneone comfortable enough that I an able to hear sometimes challenging truths. But: part of being empathic,  of being compassionate,  is recognizing that official Church venues rarely if ever can provide a discussion of the peripheral and the chalkenging. In general, Sunday services, Sunday classes, and the youth seminaries, are designed for the weakest and tenderest of consciences. (I have the impression that our LDS college system may make some, discreet and respectful, provisions for deepening and broadening one's theological knowledge: but even there, things are kept pretty firmly in hand).

Not all ProgMos recognize that: a few are always trying to make radical changes in something or another. I am friends with at least one scholarly LDS member who is rather openly using his "calling" to provide aid and comfort to dissenters. Another former local leader does likewise. I  keep expecting to hear that one or both of these are under Church discipline.

These are what I would term "Evangelical Progressives", and while I  think these folks may aspire to a Stage Five or Stage Six faith, I am not certain they are not stuck in a Stage 3.5 paradigm. 

But that is an internal, LDS problem, though some Masonic Brethren may belong to faith traditions which have similar problems with militantly disruptive or arrogant dissenters. Clandestine Masonic groups,  particularly those accepting atheists or raising Women to the sublime degree of Master Mason, might be examples. 

In any case: Freemasonry has some venues where I can explore things a bit more--though Masonry itself has both an orthodoxy and tender consciences which do not need to be offended. I see myself here to assist and to serve, not to shock nor repel. 

Hope this has not veered too far off the track of this thread,  which I took to be about Christianity and Freemasonry,  specifically about the opposition of some Christians to Freemasonry. Be aware that such critics are earnestly seeking to provoke a sort of faith crises in Frermasons,  to cause Masons to fear their relationship with the Divine is in jeopardy,  that we have leagued ourselves with Devil worshippers and/or would-be world despots. Their motive tends to be that they, themselves are chronically on the razor's edge of a faith crises themselves.  And laboring under a terrific burden thereby.


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## coachn (Mar 12, 2017)

> It is possible to be true at the same time to a few principles or entities. but being true to everyone and everything at the same time is obviously impossible.  Hence Truth is not absolute.


Is that a fact?


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## Bloke (Mar 12, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> It is possible to be true at the same time to a few principles or entities. but being true to everyone and everything at the same time is obviously impossible.  Hence Truth is not absolute.



In the modern world, we're taught Truth is relative and to reject/ question it, and there are no absolutes because truth is relative. Is that True in a masonic system? Truth might be the the GAOTU exists, but ones understanding will mean what the GAOTU is varies... but the absolute truth the GAOTU exists remains..

Or are " absolute " truths just facts as Coach perhaps suggests. Or is our system an anachronism when it comes to its expression of Truth ?


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## Bloke (Mar 12, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> I hope you won't mind if I say that the GAOTU is a human concept ....




People who take offense to ideas in conversations are generally not good conversationalists..


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 12, 2017)

Bloke said:


> People who take offense to ideas in conversations are generally not good conversationalists..


Agreed! If you disagree do so respectfully and state your case.


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## robertduran (Mar 15, 2017)

goomba said:


> This is just my opinion.
> 
> Because some people have such a narrow view of Christianity.  They see it as anything outside of their understanding isn't true Christianity.



Couldn't have been explained any better. 


Robert Duran


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