# Secrecy



## jwardl (Mar 11, 2011)

Last week during a larger personal discussion, the lady I'd dreamed of having a future with brought up the issue of our "secrets." Her main points were:
a) mates should have NO secrets between them, period, and
b) anything good should be able to bear the light of day, and be open to all

She's not one of those wackos who's convinced we're doing something dark or sinister, but said that if we're not, why not change things and eliminate the secrecy? I explained that it's tradition, is a token of our integrity, AND that they concern only the details of our degrees and modes of recognition -- but it IS a good question.

I don't personally see the problem; if my mate joined the OES or any other order, keeping their secrets wouldn't bother me in the least so long as I trusted _her_ -- especially after it was explained what it was all about. It's not the same thing as keeping personal secrets between partners. In my situation, I think personal trust is the real issue... but regardless, what do you guys think about the reasons for the secrets, their value/appropriateness, perceptions by loved ones, etc? What experiences have you had? Would love to hear any comments.


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## Benton (Mar 11, 2011)

It's better to think of it as privacy. When a church's Administrative Council or Pastor/Parish Relationship Committee meets to have a discussion, it's for church members only. Why? Nothing sinister is going on. However, the business of those bodies only affects members of that church, and only members of that church need be privy to their goings on. 

I was frank with my girlfriend about the situation. I'm not going to break my obligation, and reserve the right to with hold anything I feel necessary. We're a brotherhood of confidence. That said, most of our 'secrets' have been published for a couple hundred years. Yet we haven't changed them. Why? Because whats more important than the fact that they're secret, is that we are upholding a tradition, remembering when those secrets were vitally important. We remember a time when Masonry couldn't exist publicly and had to be clandestine. (Not in the masonic use of the word, but just the normal use.)

No, it's about trust. If you broke your obligation to your brothers, what good would your word be to your significant other? A fair question ponder.


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## coachn (Mar 11, 2011)

A lot of trades have trade secrets.  I count Freemasonry as one of them.

There are secrets that have no business being shared with people that have no concern in the matters that involve these secrets.  There are secrets that should be shared with people who are affected.  Freemasonry has secrets that fall into the former and none of the latter.

What I do not share with my spouse is information that does not involve her.  She does the same with me.  That's what healthy people do, regardless of being married or not.


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## Thestoat (Mar 12, 2011)

What I have done is told my wife I am a freemason, and she knows the circumstances leading upto my becoming an ea, there are also ladies evenings for her to attend, with me, so she knows it's nothing sinister.

What I wouldn't do is share the secrets I have learned so far, and she wouldn't ask.

A true wife is also your best friend, and she wouldn't dream of even asking for any secrets.

I keep all the ancient freemasonry stuff in a box, along with the few new bits I have so far, and I have said that should anything happen to me, I would prefer this box to be returned to my lodge, so that the stuff remains secret.

My wife does have the telephone numbers written down of a few Mason friends in case of emergency, two of whom are only ten minutes drive, so that the things are always safe from harm.

I think in essence we need to protect our secrets and honour each other and freemasonry worldwide by keeping hints this way, and wife or true friend would never pressurise you to talk of things you are not comftable talking about/can't talk about.

That's my take on things anyways.


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## tom268 (Mar 12, 2011)

jwardl said:


> mates should have NO secrets between them, period



That is her opinion, and it is surely godd and right for her, but to be true, it is not natural. The all-should-share-everything attitude is quite new, compared to human history as a whole. To look at the natural way of things, we often have to look at the primitive tribes in Africa or South America, who still live in a natural way. Very often, they have man's houses, woman's houses, and coming-of-age rituals, where the other gender are prohibited to take part. Also, most of the time, men a not allowed to see childbirth. Both genders have their "we only" areas, and those are most of the time very mystical, spiritual circumstances, connected with it.

The all-should-share-everything attitude is a brainchild of the 20th century, even the late 20th. And in my opinion, that attitude takes a good part of magic and wonder out of out life. It takes down the magic forest, and drags all the wonders into the neon light of a laboratory, where it is vivisected.

And on a second point, the all-should-share-everything attitude is also a sign of distrust. If you share everything, you don't need to trust any more, but to know, that there is an area, where you cannot reach, brings you back to trust. And, if there can be a well known area of retreat, there is no need for a hidden area. And it is a fact, because it is natural, that every human creates such an area, known or hidden, and if it is only in the back of one's head.



jwardl said:


> anything good should be able to bear the light of day, and be open to all



Well, ask her, if your sex is good. And if so, why don't you do it in the light of day and open to all? It's a joke, of course, but it shows the point: Because it is something private, even intimate, and it needs the protection of an intimate environment to keep it stainless.


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## Thestoat (Mar 12, 2011)

Hi sorry to reply twice on the same subject.

After the initial persecution in the 14th century, and especially after the Nazi persecution of freemasons in the war, we have a duty to keep our secrets.

As many of you know, I have the full transcripts of the nuremburg war trials in 1946, and I have read in graphic detail what happened to our brethren over there under Nazi rule.

Many of our brethren were tortured for their secrets, tortured for days without mercy, with the torturers changing shifts and doing a lot of things that most men would crack under, our brethren never cracked, and died keeping the secrets.

Brethren in the uk were ready to receive the same treatment, and again were prepared to die under torture rather than reveal the secrets.

This is in some part why the joining process can be so stringent, as this could happen again.

So, if our dead brethren went to their horrific deaths without talking, then we can keep our most essential secrets, we have a duty to, and not doing so dishonours our dead and our brethren who do keep the secrets.

Sorry to reply twice, but I've been giving this a lot of thought.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Mar 12, 2011)

Any healthy relationship demands, among other things, _trust_. If there is not enough trust to cover the trivial "secrets" a Mason must keep, there are far bigger problems hanging over that relationship. Please note that I am referring to the "secrets" as trivial, and not the keeping of them. As we've been discussing in another thread, the "secrets" are readily knowable, but the keeping of those secrets is a matter of integrity and discipline. Explained in this context, the partner in a healthy relationship should be reassured rather than threatened.


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## jwhoff (Mar 12, 2011)

There's no time like the present to introduce that first, and most convincing, "NO."  Every good and healthy relationship learns to adjust and move forward.  The fact that the first _don't tread on my personal space_ has to deal with one's obligation to freemasonry matters little.  Trust, like that of a small child, requires boundaries.

I had a professor down in the bayou country who loved to tell us that healthy relationships means two distinct lives are required to keep the kindling mysterious and warm enough to sustain interest.  "Breathing room" is, I believe, the scientific term.  Of course, he also warned against the waste of potable water supplies.  And look where that's gotten us!

Some of those guys were too smart for our own goods.  But I drift.


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## Preston DuBose (Mar 16, 2011)

I joined the fraternity during the first year of my marriage, so I definitely feel your pain Jwardl. Some people are more trusting than others. It's easy to say "She shouldn't ask" because in an ideal world that's true. However there are all sorts of reason why someone would be wary of secrets, the most simple being having been betrayed by someone in her past. If possible, one way to allay her fears is to involve her in the lodge as much as reasonable. Bring her to public events, introduce her to other Masonic spouses/girlfriends, etc. You could also give her some reading material along the lines of the Freemasons for Dummies book.


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## MikeMay (Mar 16, 2011)

Okay...this is going to be long winded because I have been thinking about this for a while....

From a married candidates position, this puts an interesting dilemma on marriages.  An aspiring candidate is to open his home for the investigating committee which involves the wife being present.  This time while the investigating committee member(s) are present is a time where not only is the candidate asked questions, but the candidate (and his wife) can ask questions.  The wife is (should be) involved in the beginning (the interview) because of the time the candidate is going to be dedicating to the work.  Remember, she will have the opportunity to petition for the OES if she desires, so you don't want to just shut the door on her questions. There will be many opportunities for the wife to be at the lodge during public/open meetings and if your lodge does a meal before stated meetings she should be there at that time too...your wife is your partner, the other half of "the two shall become one" equation.  

Marriages are two way streets, and cavalierly stating an emphatic "no" on questions isn't the correct approach.  There are many questions a spouse has the right to ask of her husband because she is trusting he is doing what he says he is doing.  Asking her husband "what is masonry and what does it do for you?" is a legitimate question many wives ask...The Masonic Information Center has a pamphlet entitled "What is a Mason" that is available and answers many questions without divulging secrets.  Our GL has a pamphlet on the Texas Masonic Philanthropies that Masonry is involved...I didn't know until I read it that the Grotto is involved with Cerebral Palsy for children and Dental care for children with special needs.   

Questions about what we term 'secrets' can be answered by simply stating "There are some things I just cannot answer.  Those things do not interfere with my duties to God, my spouse, my family or my vocation but I have agreed to keep my word to my brothers.  Masonry takes good men and makes them better men, and I am trying to be a better man, for you, our family, our community and God."  

I have been married for over 27 years.  I didn't get this far by being "totally" secretive.  My wife understands that there are somethings I cannot divulge because before I entered my petition to the lodge, I was a church deacon (at one time the chairman) and I am working towards being a professional counselor so she gets the need for secrecy, but she also knows that I am where I say I am on nights I am at the lodge and she knows who else is there as well.  She knows on some nights it is working with a candidate and their work, on some nights its a stated meeting and on some nights its instruction or degree practice.  She knows I am going to be where I say I am going to be...most of the time, that's the assurance that our wives are looking for...its not that they need to know the lodge secrets, its that they trust we are doing what we say we are doing...

For the unmarried candidate who becomes a mason it is a little different.  Because when he does become engaged and married, the new spouse is brought into an "established" routine that she is basically forced to accept without the benefit of being there from the beginning as a married candidates spouse is....But the same applies to both...don't shut them out, but gently remind them there are some things we can talk about and some that we cannot.  

One of the most important things to remember...as a Mason we run into people who oppose Masonry for a whole host of reasons 99.9999% of which are unfounded.  Our wives catch the same "oh, your husband is one of those?" kinds of questions.  It would be nice if she were informed enough to be able to say "I trust my husband, I trust his motives and I trust his actions in Masonry, this is what they do and what they do not do..."  And in all of that, no secrets are divulged.


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## tom268 (Mar 16, 2011)

Preston DuBose said:


> If possible, one way to allay her fears is to involve her in the lodge as much as reasonable. Bring her to public events, introduce her to other Masonic spouses/girlfriends, etc. You could also give her some reading material along the lines of the Freemasons for Dummies book.



This is a very good and valid point. The secrecy in and of the brotherhood usually centers around ritual and symbolic stuff. The questions and interests of wifes are usually far more social in nature. They don't want to know, if we raise the left or the right hand or stick the finger in the nose, to recognize each other, but they want to know, with what kind of guys we hang around, and a bit of what we do, wen we hang around with them.

Those questions come from a desire of security, and it is all natural. At least, that is the majority of wifes I know, who have those concerns. I had my membership discussed with my wife, before I sent in the petition. I had the petition form at home, already filled, but not signed. I told her, that I will not sign it, before she gave her OK to my membership.


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## Jacob Johnson (Mar 16, 2011)

I have also gotten the "well, i don't keep anything from YOU" thing a few times. *NOTE* I'm not married. Just dating, but the topic still applies. I've dated a few different girls since I was entered, and there is inevitably a time in the relationship where this question comes up. I usually just tell her that the only things secret are basically just the passwords, handshakes, etc., but that it is important to keep my word and not share them with her. Usually, that's enough. BUT I have had one girl come back with "well, what if we were married? can't you tell your wife?!" I told her that a second date was too soon to worry about that (lol), but that no, my obligation doesn't change when I get married. 

I guess my point here is that some people will understand, and some people won't. It does seem (in my experience) that most girls my age have this idea that a couple should tell each other absolutely everything. And they're usually pretty good at telling you everything too, lol. But there are things that ARE important, and shouldn't be kept from your partner, and then there are things that are nobody's business but yours.

EDIT: One of the girls I dated used to ask me what we did EVERY time I came back from lodge. SO, one night I gave her a rundown of a typical Stated Meeting agenda. "oh. that's boring" she said, and never asked again.


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## Brent Heilman (Mar 16, 2011)

My wife understands that there are somethings I cannot tell her and she is good with that. Her dad was a Mason so she understands a bit more than some, but even if her dad wouldn't have been she still would understand. While I was in the Navy I was always gone it seemed and when I did get a chance to talk to her or when I got back home I would tell her what I could or where we went. That was usually good enough. The bottom line always came down she trusted me and my judgment and knew I would not do anything that would jeopardize our marriage. The secrets we hold as Masons may be known all over the world but it comes down to the fact that we gave our word to our Brothers and that is no different than the vows we took when we get married. If I can easily break my vow to my Brothers then it should be just as easy to break my vows to her. The bottom line is that is a trust issue. If our word is our bond our vows, no matter who they are to, should never be broken.


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## Heirophant (Mar 21, 2011)

It's also important to remember that what happens in the lodge "Cannot be told" rather than "should not be told". How does one describe the feeling of a beautiful sunset or that feeling you get when you're around people who think and feel the same as you?


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## Bro. Brad Marrs (Mar 21, 2011)

Jacob Johnson said:


> EDIT: One of the girls I dated used to ask me what we did EVERY time I came back from lodge. SO, one night I gave her a rundown of a typical Stated Meeting agenda. "oh. that's boring" she said, and never asked again.



Good job keeping the secret. Nothing boring ever happens at The Colony No. 1451. *grin*

Seriously though--My wife never questioned the secret parts, and accepted them outright. However, she did wonder what was taking my time away from her. A couple of trips to some public functions at the Scottish Rite fixed that. At one of them, her eyes welled up, she looked at me, and said "I get it now". Now she understands that we are good men, regardless of what we look like or where we come from. We all have something in common--a sincere desire to do good in the world, and to better ourselves constantly.


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## Tony Siciliano (Mar 21, 2011)

I ran across this blog today whilst searching for the end of the Internet.  Fits this topic perfectly.  Check it out:

http://manthaneinchronicles.blogspot.com/2011/03/dialogue-with-non-mason.html#links


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## Michaelstedman81 (Mar 22, 2011)

Goodness.  We have some Brothers in here with great heads on their shoulders.  I was going to comment on here, but there have been so many great points made that any that I might have come up with have been spoken.  This thread has been a really good read so far and I can't wait to see it continued.

As for my two cents, I also do know the feeling of the better half wanting to know about the "secrets".  My woman had now clue about Masonry until she got with me.  At first she just asked a few times what it was about and then other folks would end up telling her their ideas of what goes on in the fraternity.  Nothing really bad or anything, but she became more curious about things and the questions started coming and getting more detailed.  There were times that I told her I could not answer her particular question.  But it was the same thing while I was in the Army and after I got out and was working for the Army.  I have a security clearance and my job handled classified information on a day to day basis.  Lol, so I had my obligation to my Brothers that I was keeping and also being legally prohibited for national security that I would have to deal with.

I don't think that it was her having trust issues as it might be for some women, but she was one that wanted there to be no secrets between each other at all.  So, I just told her that when it comes to the Masonic stuff, I have a duty to my Brothers to not reveal certain things.  As for the military stuff, I told her that I wasn't about to go to prison for talking about things that someone smarter (supposedly) than I deemed important enough not to talk about with people that didn't have the clearance.  Plus, with the military stuff, it could have had negative results for some people.  She finally got the hint and backed off asking, but every now and again when I come home from lodge, she would ask what I was up to in the lodge, but was more joking than anything...lol


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## Beathard (Mar 22, 2011)

Is it a violation of our obligation to say the "secrets" in one's sleep? Not that I have, but I can ask my wife anything after she is asleep. She will tell me the answer without ever showing a sign of waking.


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## Bro. Brad Marrs (Mar 22, 2011)

Beathard said:


> Is it a violation of our obligation to say the "secrets" in one's sleep?.



Good one! I would say no, providing we are not wittingly induced for the purpose of revealing the secrets.


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## Brent Heilman (Mar 22, 2011)

Bro. Brad Marrs said:


> Good one! I would say no, providing we are not wittingly induced for the purpose of revealing the secrets.



That's a good thing because I know I do that sometimes. I am sure I was doing the I started on my memory work after my initiation.


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## Michaelstedman81 (Mar 22, 2011)

Beathard said:


> Is it a violation of our obligation to say the "secrets" in one's sleep? Not that I have, but I can ask my wife anything after she is asleep. She





Hahahah I remember when a buddy of mine and I got or EA right about the same time.  Him, a MM friend of ours, and I were talking at work one day about the work.  He said that he was worried crazy about muttering the work while he was asleep...lol  After reading this initially, that same thougth came into my mind as after being deployed I started to talk and say things in my sleep at times as well...

Besides, think about the whole part of the obligation that refers to revealing the secrets...  It covers this


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