# Traditional observance



## brother josh (Dec 9, 2013)

There is a movement of traditional observance lodges that is sweeping in Kentucky I was wondering what you brothers thought of this and if your state is experiencing this also let it be know it is my understanding that the GM is ok with this I can not however speak for him since I'm not him nor have I had the opportunity to chat with him on this matter but I have heard he's ok with it


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## JJones (Dec 9, 2013)

I'm a fan of the TO movement myself but, unfortunately, our GL here in Texas seems generally opposed to it.


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## Brother JC (Dec 9, 2013)

As for certified TO Lodges (as per the Masonic Restoration Foundation, there were none in NM where I was Raised, but there are several in CA, and I'm petitioning one at the moment.
A number of Lodges are incorporating more traditional ideas into their lodges, following the TO, or "European Concept," practices. As it generally means improved ritual, and a deeper, more meaningful approach to our Craft, I'm all for it.


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## crono782 (Dec 9, 2013)

Yeah, Texas in particular poo-poos on the idea of Traditional Observance in lieu of a "good ol' boys club" mentality. I would imagine that someday that will change, just takes time.


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## Brother JC (Dec 9, 2013)

There are two TO Lodges in Texas...


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## JJones (Dec 9, 2013)

trysquare said:


> There are two TO Lodges in Texas...




There are a few but certain concepts that are usually seen in TO lodges are getting some negative attention recently.  Namely CoRs and table lodges.  Ofcourse, we may get to use table lodges once more once it's decided how they should be run, again.


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## Bro. Michael (Dec 9, 2013)

I am not familiar with the expression 'traditional observance'. Could someone explain what it is, please?


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## Brother_Steve (Dec 9, 2013)

I like the ability to have fun while in lodge but I love tight degree work. Visitors come to your lodge to see degrees and sometimes it can be embarrassing to have shoddy work. Not so much for the lodge but for the candidate. Granted the candidate will not know any difference if the degree *flows* from point to point so long as the sideliners don't jump in when a word or floor work is wrong.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Dec 9, 2013)

Bro. Michael said:


> I am not familiar with the expression 'traditional observance'. Could someone explain what it is, please?



Utilizing the {Search} feature of this site, input "Traditional Observance" and you will find numerous older threads about the subject.

Have Fun!


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## brother josh (Dec 9, 2013)

Bro. Michael said:


> I am not familiar with the expression 'traditional observance'. Could someone explain what it is, please?



TO lodge is more of an old school way of doing it when the big thing in America was to join a fraternity it kind brought the quality down a notch instead of candles well its safer and it look spiffy to use SC light bulbs instead of designing your apron to fit you and how you feel a out freemasonry let just get the cheap aprons and we can buy in bulk  the TO reminds me of say taking it back to when Washington and Franklin and prince hall would've been initiated into the craft


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## Brother JC (Dec 9, 2013)

Bro. Michael said:


> I am not familiar with the expression 'traditional observance'. Could someone explain what it is, please?


The Masonic Restoration Foundation website explains it well. From their list of lodges you can also look at several lodge websites.


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## Bro. Michael (Dec 9, 2013)

Thank you, Brothers.


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## cemab4y (Dec 9, 2013)

I stumbled across some information about TO lodges, some years ago. I also found "European Concept" lodges. Some of the first TO lodges were in California, and Canada. 

I am excited about the concept! I can foresee some (but not all) Grand Lodges, embracing the concept, and chartering more TO lodges across the USA. 

This is an exciting time to be a Mason!


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## JFS61 (Dec 10, 2013)

After last weekend, I imagine that most Texas TO lodges will be keeping their heads down and going to ground for the foreseeable future.


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## cemab4y (Dec 10, 2013)

I should think that if Texas Masons choose to have TO lodges in their state, then they should be hammering the Grand Lodge, to initiate the proper changes in the state constitution and by-laws, to facilitate the speedy chartering of such lodges. 

"It does not take a majority to effect change. It takes an irate and tireless minority keen to light brush fires in people's minds"- Sam Adams, revolutionary.

"Don't mess with Texas" - author unknown


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## JFS61 (Dec 10, 2013)

cemab4y said:


> I should think that if Texas Masons choose to have TO lodges in their state, then they should be hammering the Grand Lodge, to initiate the proper changes in the state constitution and by-laws, to facilitate the speedy chartering of such lodges.



Since it was the TO lodges themselves that got hammered at Grand Lodge this past weekend, that's probably not going to happen anytime soon.


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## dfreybur (Dec 10, 2013)

JFS61 said:


> Since it was the TO lodges themselves that got hammered at Grand Lodge this past weekend, that's probably not going to happen anytime soon.



Were I a member of one of the two of them I would take the votes last week as open invitations to put forward legislation to change the situation.  if my signing any of their paperwork will help my pen is in my hand.

I offer an alternate view of what happened - The grand line hammered them, active opposition.  The delegates only voted to approve the decisions of their leaders, passive compliance.


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## Brother JC (Dec 10, 2013)

The TO Lodges have a total of six votes within GLTX, not enough to combat any level of determination to stop perceived change. The battle for 2014 needs to begin now, "ducks in a row" and other cliches apply.


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## Mac (Dec 13, 2013)

trysquare said:


> The TO Lodges have a total of six votes within GLTX, not enough to combat any level of determination to stop perceived change. The battle for 2014 needs to begin now, "ducks in a row" and other cliches apply.



I don't think their votes would have been their only tool at Grand Lodge.  Proposed legislation to guide the use of table lodges would have shut down that GM's recommendation.  Same goes with the CoR.

I look forward to seeing what is proposed in the coming months for next year's Grand Lodge meeting.  Mostly unrelated: I'm curious if someone will go ahead and submit the legislation to the floor to allow us to visit with PHA lodges.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Dec 14, 2013)

JFS61 said:


> Since it was the TO lodges themselves that got hammered at Grand Lodge this past weekend, that's probably not going to happen anytime soon.



Too true, sadly. 

Why would anyone want some fancy-pants "traditional observance" lodge when when all we want to do is eat a second-rate meal and then have a meeting (wearing our best jeans and t-shirts) where we discuss important business like maintaining our aging and decrepit lodge building? Better make sure that the GL's membership gets the message that we won't tolerate change.
/sarcasm


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## 4570 (Dec 26, 2013)

I met Cliff Porter as a Masonic Conference last spring.
Great speaker, he left a large impression on all who were there. 
I was one of many who bought his 1st book.  Well written.

His new book (see link below)...
http://www.amazon.ca/Traditional-Ob...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1388069980&sr=1-1


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## BroBill (Dec 27, 2013)

brother josh said:


> There is a movement of traditional observance lodges that is sweeping in Kentucky I was wondering what you brothers thought of this and if your state is experiencing this also let it be know it is my understanding that the GM is ok with this I can not however speak for him since I'm not him nor have I had the opportunity to chat with him on this matter but I have heard he's ok with it



I just read "Observing the Craft" and I've just started "A Traditional Observance Lodge" and I'm fascinated with the difference between where we are today (in Texas) and where the TOL is.  There are definitely things I'd like to see come in through changes to the Grand Lodge law.  

S&F
BroBill


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Dec 27, 2013)

BroBill said:


> I just read "Observing the Craft" and I've just started "A Traditional Observance Lodge" and I'm fascinated with the difference between where we are today (in Texas) and where the TOL is.  There are definitely things I'd like to see come in through changes to the Grand Lodge law.



You and everyone else in this jurisdiction who sees the craft for what it is supposed to be, Brother. Do not get me wrong. If this or that Lodge wants to stick with third-rate meals and boring meetings, fine, but to effectively force all Lodges in the jurisdiction to that lowest common denominator is extremely short-sighted. Yes, Doug's point about who actually did the voting is valid, but the reality is that the TO movement has been set back in the GLoTX.


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## dfreybur (Dec 30, 2013)

BroBill said:


> I just read "Observing the Craft" and I've just started "A Traditional Observance Lodge" and I'm fascinated with the difference between where we are today (in Texas) and where the TOL is.  There are definitely things I'd like to see come in through changes to the Grand Lodge law.
> 
> S&F
> BroBill



I don't get why there has been any conflict in the first place other than the clueless flub with screwing up CofR.  There is nothing in the Traditional Observance movement that has any conflict with any GL practice I've ever seen (other than the CofR flub in one state).  Near as I can tell everything else about the issue is the Texas grand line officers wanting Masonry to be more like the Elks and less like the Masons.

Color me unsympathetic with the grand line on this topic.  Yet the representatives at GL have voted with the grand line to color me obedient to the decisions even though I'm unsympathetic with them.


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## brother josh (Dec 30, 2013)

I don't understand why there is conflict with the CofR I find the idea very imposing on the mind as far as getting the lessons of mortality influence on the canadetes mind


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## BroBill (Dec 30, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> I don't get why there has been any conflict in the first place other than the clueless flub with screwing up CofR.  There is nothing in the Traditional Observance movement that has any conflict with any GL practice I've ever seen (other than the CofR flub in one state).  Near as I can tell everything else about the issue is the Texas grand line officers wanting Masonry to be more like the Elks and less like the Masons.
> 
> Color me unsympathetic with the grand line on this topic.  Yet the representatives at GL have voted with the grand line to color me obedient to the decisions even though I'm unsympathetic with them.



 I am hopeful for the future.. I suppose I'm colored something chameleon-ish, cynical and hopeful... maybe I'm actually a mood ring! 

So far everything I read of the TOL and tradition observance in general seems reasonable, but I do understand the "we've never done it that way" culture is firmly embedded.  

About three years ago I was opposed to a proposed change in the law to allow those making themselves available for the Grand Line to list their business and higher educational credentials in their bios because my fear was that voting would swing to the candidate with the longest list of business certifications or degrees and away from a candidate that might be more qualified based strictly on his masonic credentials and masonic "vision".  Sigh....  

Appreciate the discussion!

S&F
BroBill


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## cemab4y (Dec 30, 2013)

(I ain't got a dog in this fight). I am very interested in how the situation will play out in Texas, with respect to TO lodges. I hope that the movement can "take root" and TO lodges can operate, with support (or at least permission) from your Grand Lodge.

TO lodges have met with genuine success in Canada, and in California. (Possibly other places as well!) And I understand that there are TO lodges underway in Kentucky (where my mother lodge is). 

I hope hear more from the participants in Texas (and other places). Please keep us informed. And I wish you well. 

(PS. I know how hard it is to get change in Masonry. "We never did it that way before" is a mantra)


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## Brother JC (Dec 30, 2013)

For the record, there are TO Lodges in AZ, CA, CO, CT, DC, FL, IN, KS, LA, MS, MN, NH, NY, OH, OK, PA, TN, TX, VA, WA, and WI, as well as three Provinces of Canada. These are the ones recognized by the MRF and does not include the numerous Lodges who have included Observant practices into their work.


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## dfreybur (Dec 30, 2013)

cemab4y said:


> I am very interested in how the situation will play out in Texas, with respect to TO lodges. I hope that the movement can "take root" and TO lodges can operate, with support (or at least permission) from your Grand Lodge.



Other than the fiasco with screwing up Chamber of Reflection by one Texas lodge there is no conflict whatsoever.  All that is needed is lack of opposition by members of the progressive grand line.  Why members of the progressive grand line in Texas would oppose actually taking Masonic values seriously is completely beyond my kenn.



trysquare said:


> For the record, there are TO Lodges in AZ, CA, CO, CT, DC, FL, IN, KS, LA, MS, MN, NH, NY, OH, OK, PA, TN, TX, VA, WA, and WI, as well as three Provinces of Canada. These are the ones recognized by the MRF and does not include the numerous Lodges who have included Observant practices into their work.



Right.  There's at least one lodge in Illinois that follows the TO pattern but that is not registered as such.



brother josh said:


> I don't understand why there is conflict with the CofR I find the idea very imposing on the mind as far as getting the lessons of mortality influence on the canadetes mind



Each GL in the US and many elsewhere have a prescribed ritual that is standardized for the jurisdiction and that is taught by instructors.  That is the ritual that is to be used during degrees, period.  In each of these rituals there are a number of break points where optional activities can happen that are other ritual or that are not ritual.

For example activities can happen before the opening starts.  Items like proficiencies or announcements can be inserted between the opening and the start of the degree.  Items like proficiencies and presentations can be inserted between the end of the degree and the closing (I very much like an X degree proficiency after an X degree at this point to show the new brother what his task is).  items like informal talks can be added after the closing ceremony is complete.  Do the Chamber of Reflection at one of these break points and it is not ritual and therefore not in conflict with the ritual.  In the case of Chamber of Reflection because of its content it should be completed before the opening ceremony begins.

A lodge in Texas didn't bother to think through this issue.  They inserted Chamber of Reflection activities within the prescribed ritual.  As such they interfered with the ritual and did it wrong.  Any brother who knows how ritual works should have been able to say "Not the right time.  Step back and think it through again.  Do that before the opening ceremony starts."  I have no idea if any member of the lodge did that.  I have no idea whether the lodge did it knowing what they were committing or if they did it out of clueless enthusiasm.  But it had the predictable results - They interfered with the prescribed ritual and got told to stop doing that.

In the end most of Texas got the wrong impression of what happened.  Right impression - Learn the ritual and do non-ritual stuff at times that do not conflict with ritual.  Wrong impression - Chamber of Reflection is bad so ban it.

Another activity popular with TO lodges is Table Lodge.  A tiled meeting during a banquet with scheduled toasts and talks that is the general format used at the foundation of GL Freemasonry in 1717.  Table Lodges are held across the world by many lodges not a part of the TO movement, they just happen to be more popular in the US with TO lodges than non-TO lodges.  I have attended Table Lodge in California and Illinois hosted by non-TO lodges.  This year, after being approved 22 years ago, Illinois banned Table Lodge until the committee on ritual presents a printed ritual for Table Lodge.  It's been a week and they haven't presented one.  Sure enough, the resolution did not give them a deadline.  Grumble.


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## crono782 (Dec 30, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> This year, after being approved 22 years ago, Illinois banned Table Lodge until the committee on ritual presents a printed ritual for Table Lodge.  It's been a week and they haven't presented one.  Sure enough, the resolution did not give them a deadline.  Grumble.



Illinois did it too (or did you mean Texas there)? The Texas recommendation gave a deadline of next year, correct? I'm okay with the Texas GM recommendation of adopting a standard format I guess. Better than out and out banning it.


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## dfreybur (Dec 30, 2013)

crono782 said:


> Illinois did it too (or did you mean Texas there)? The Texas recommendation gave a deadline of next year, correct? I'm okay with the Texas GM recommendation of adopting a standard format I guess. Better than out and out banning it.



Thanks for the correct on state.  I'm discussing Texas events and obliviously typed in the name of one of my jurisdictions.

GM Recommendation No 1 does give until the next GL.  For a task I was able to complete in an hour on Google.  It is a ban.


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## crono782 (Dec 30, 2013)

Yah I don't understand why they don't just borrow what another state is doing and mix that with what they like that we already have. Easy peasy.


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## 4570 (Dec 30, 2013)

trysquare said:


> For the record, there are TO Lodges in AZ, CA, CO, CT, DC, FL, IN, KS, LA, MS, MN, NH, NY, OH, OK, PA, TN, TX, VA, WA, and WI, as well as three Provinces of Canada. These are the ones recognized by the MRF and does not include the numerous Lodges who have included Observant practices into their work.



http://traditionalobservance.com/traditional-lodges/
This list includes 3 lodges in 3 provinces in Canada.
I learned today that there is a 4th in Canada.  Started in 2013.
And in my home province of Alberta. 
Too bad a full day drive away...

Dan


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## Morris (Oct 6, 2014)

trysquare said:


> As for certified TO Lodges (as per the Masonic Restoration Foundation, there were none in NM where I was Raised, but there are several in CA, and I'm petitioning one at the moment.
> A number of Lodges are incorporating more traditional ideas into their lodges, following the TO, or "European Concept," practices. As it generally means improved ritual, and a deeper, more meaningful approach to our Craft, I'm all for it.



I came across this article on the subject. It has a pretty good overall and some specifics on the differences of TO and European Concept practices. Good, light read on the subject. 

http://thecraftsman.org/issues/february-2014/files/mobile/index.html#2


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 6, 2014)

Haven't heard of these "TO" lodges here in Kentucky. Will check into this and learn more.


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## Brother JC (Oct 6, 2014)

Warrior1256 said:


> Haven't heard of these "TO" lodges here in Kentucky. Will check into this and learn more.


There doesn't seem to be one in KY, though some lodges may be using "observant" philosophies. Even without the TO or EC tag, it's quite easy to adopt ideals. Brother Hammer's book (mentioned in the article previously posted) is an excellent reference. The simple act of stopping all sideline chatter makes a world of difference.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Oct 6, 2014)

cemab4y said:


> I should think that if Texas Masons choose to have TO lodges in their state, then they should be hammering the Grand Lodge, to initiate the proper changes in the state constitution and by-laws, to facilitate the speedy chartering of such lodges.


You must be new here.  GL politics are seldom something that reflects the will of the members, or even common sense.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 6, 2014)

trysquare said:


> There doesn't seem to be one in KY, though some lodges may be using "observant" philosophies. Even without the TO or EC tag, it's quite easy to adopt ideals. Brother Hammer's book (mentioned in the article previously posted) is an excellent reference. The simple act of stopping all sideline chatter makes a world of difference.


Thank you for the reply brother.


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