# Some Religious Questions



## Blake Bowden (Dec 2, 2013)

According to your beliefs/religion:

1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?
2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? (Refer to question 1)
3. According to your beliefs, what happens if a person never knew God?
4. Did the Supreme Architect create evil?
5. If the Supreme Architect did not create evil, where did it originate?
6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven? 
7. If sin already existed before Adam and Eve...(fill in the blank)

Share your thoughts and ask any questions you may have. This is not a debate...be respectful...keep it simple.


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## Browncoat (Dec 2, 2013)

*1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?*
I am a Christian. I believe in Heaven and the afterlife. Like most, I often speculate on what it's like "up there". I suppose I believe in some cliche things, like St. Peter meeting me at the Pearly Gates with a large book in hand, where my life will be reviewed to see if I can gain admission by being deemed worthy. I like to think that lost loved ones and friends will be there waiting for me. 

*2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? (Refer to question 1)*
This is a tough one. While I believe in God, I also have to accept that Christianity is relatively "new" compared to other religions. What about the ancient Egyptian gods, the Greek/Roman gods, Buddhism, etc.? To believe in Christianity is to also believe that everyone else got it wrong. Any religion requires faith, but how do you know yours is the right one? You don't. I suppose that if I adhere to my own faith, that there is one true God, and that there's only one way to get to Heaven...then I also have to adhere to the mantra that non-believers will not be there.

*3. According to your beliefs, what happens if a person never knew God?*
See above. Christianity has certain "prerequisites", for lack of a better word.

*4. Did the Supreme Architect create evil?
5. If the Supreme Architect did not create evil, where did it originate?*
If God is the creator of all things, then He had to create evil. Then again, this brings into question the balance of the universe, which brings science and other teachings into play. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Yin and yang. Good and evil. Heaven and hell. Did this balance always exist? Does anyone really know the answer to such questions?

*6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven?*
Lucifer is not Satan. The names are not interchangeable. The name Lucifer only appears once in the Bible, and was not referring to Satan/the devil.

This is where my own beliefs get muddy. I have studied many interpretations, and at best, Satan is depicted as "the deceiver". The word devil means "diabolical". It was undoubtedly Satan who took the form of the serpent in the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve with the apple from the Tree of Life. Satan said that to eat from the tree would open their eyes, and make them more like God. We often think of the devil as some red goat-man with horns who rules over the fiery pits of hell and eternal damnation. Why? If you take some liberties, Satan isn't necessarily anti-God as he is pro-man. 

When we think of hell, we think of our worst nightmares. Read the Bible. All Satan ever did was tempt people to defy God's will...and that's only if you subscribe to the Bible being literal and not parable. What if hell is just a world of sin? What if it's a bunch of wild orgies and smoking pot?

*7. If sin already existed before Adam and Eve...(fill in the blank)*
Sin is a transgression of divine law, the act of defying God. Sin had to exist before Adam and Eve, because if God has no beginning and no end...then so must the opposite be true.


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## JJones (Dec 2, 2013)

Since you asked I will answer.  Be warned my views are a bit muddy and I'm intentionally brief or vague at times to avoid typing walls of text. *

1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?*
Heaven, or closer to it.

*2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? (Refer to question 1)*
I tend to believe that all religions are paths to the same destination, unless it's a religion that fosters hate.

*3. According to your beliefs, what happens if a person never knew God?*
It depends on the type of life that person led to an extent.

*4. Did the Supreme Architect create evil?*
No, at least not directly.

*5. If the Supreme Architect did not create evil, where did it originate?*
Evil is the absence of God, much like shadow/darkness exists because light is not presence.  Evil is not a 'thing' so much as is it an absence of light/God/good. 

*6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven? *
Unless I'm mistaken, the devil being banished from heaven is a story that doesn't even exist in the Bible, rather it appears in a book written by Thomas Hobbs called 'Leviathan'.  No, I don't believe sin exists in Heaven as it represents a oneness with God.

It's already been pointed out but I also agree that Lucifer and Satan are not the same entities or interchangeable terms.
*7. If sin already existed before Adam and Eve...(fill in the blank)*
I believe it did but I'm unsure what this would imply.


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## BroBook (Dec 2, 2013)

1. My body will return to the earth, my soul will go to sleep ( dream? Oh how we love to sleep, ) my spirit will return to God who gave it. I believe that my job is to get my soul so in tuned with my spirit that when the spirit goes home my soul goes with it. Body to the dust, soul and spirit back to the Garden the Cherubim / Tyler will let me pass.
2. Body to dust spirit to God , soul to who in hell knows( comic relief )
3.The Word of God lights every human being that comes to earth. Everyone knows , but God is righteous , I don't know how but he will honor Yeshua's request "Father forgive them they know not what they do"
4.yes Isaiah 45:7
5.evil can best be described as a cancer in the body of God (He is all and in all) and we as his Servants should be looking for a cure.
6.He was banished for rebellion " and war broke out in heaven". Sin "existed" but it and its followers were cast out "woe earth..... His time is short . Praise GOD!!!
7. This whole thing is a replay satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning . In the beginning of Satan's trial The Word of God and the Spirit of God created. 

Note: 
The Big Bang was an assassination attempt
Lucifer is the title satan bore before the rebellion
He was the Light bearer the sum total of wisdom until iniquity was found in him. In closing those Holy Books that can be laid on Masonic Altars 
Should be read how else can they be your rule & guide that part is not symbolic.
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## Bro Darren (Dec 2, 2013)

In respect for all faiths/religions I believe that the Grand/Supreme Architect is the final judge and he judges us on the state of our heart. He decides what will be..


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## nfasson (Dec 3, 2013)

1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?
I believe that I would move on to a greater place with God.

2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? (Refer to question 1)
I'm not the one who judges, so it's not my place to say who goes where.

3. According to your beliefs, what happens if a person never knew God?
Again, it's not my place to pass judgement. Being a Christian does not automatically make me judge, jury and executioner of people's souls.

4. Did the Supreme Architect create evil?
I think that evil is in the eye of the beholder, and like everything else, there's a purpose to everything in God's creation.

5. If the Supreme Architect did not create evil, where did it originate?
That would infer that it's a wholly separate entity parallel or outside of God's influence.

6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven? 
No, it merely suggests that free will is both a blessing and a curse... you can choose to turn your back on God. He has given you the choice to embrace love or scorn it.

7. If sin already existed before Adam and Eve...(fill in the blank)
To me, sin is merely our natural condition. It's the baseline of our existence. I think that the bigger choices we make in life are really more important than becoming obsessed with the minutiae of this sin and that, because making those big choices the right way will help with those smaller choices. Jesus laid that out pretty plainly in the New Testament.




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## masonicdove (Dec 3, 2013)

Good morning Brethren. Here are my answers.

1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a spirit, where would it go? As a Christian I believe that if I died today I would go to heaven. In essence my spirit/soul, the immaterial part of my being, would go to heaven. My body would return to the grave where it would lie until the resurrection of the dead in Christ (thus being changed into what we term as a glorified body and be reunited with the soul).
 
2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? (Refer to question 1) I believe that those who never confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will die and not go into the presence of God in heaven. I do believe in a literal hell for those who don't believe in Christ.

3. According to your beliefs, what happens if a person never knew God? See my answer to number 2

4. Did the Supreme Architect create evil? God did not create evil. This is the great theodicy debate.

5. If the Supreme Architect did not create evil, where did it originate? Evil originate when Lucifer sinned against God. In his pride he desired to rise up against God.

6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven? See my answer above and also refer to Isaiah 14:12-15, Ezekiel 28:12-19, and Revelation 12:1-9. The second part of the question sin does not exists in Heaven. God is light and there is no darkness in Him. If we look at scripture we will see that in order for one (humanity) to come into the presence of God there must be forgiveness and the removal of sin. Christ took care of that through His sacrifice on the cross. Through Christ we have access to God.

7. If sin already existed before Adam and Eve...(fill in the blank) ...ahh this statement is ambiguous so I really don't know what you are aiming for. Yet here is the theological issue that must be settled. Why does satan seek to destroy what God has created?


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## cherrynobel (Dec 3, 2013)

*1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?
**I am a Hindu and we believe that if a person has done enough good deeds he will escape from the cycle of life and death and go to Heaven and if is to evil for living on earth he is banished to hell.I personally believe that our spirit will go from one dimension to another (the string theory suggests that there are 10 dimension) which is called Heaven **
2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? 
I think so that the principles of life and death apply to every living being even animals and plants. 
3. According to your beliefs, what happens if a person never knew God?
the same as question 2
4.Did the Supreme Architect create evil?
Yes.Like the saying that light cannot exist without darkness.Good and evil compliment each other we will not be able to identify one without referring to the other and the Supreme Architect will surely would have created evil.I think so that god created many forms of evil and like new thing's are discovered evil is also discovered by different individual in there different ways
6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven? 
In Hindu mythology sources of evil like Ravan and his brother's were strong believer of god and were granted special wishes by god and became god like themselves but in greed of their power they become evil(except one).It is similar to the Satan story and this further proves that evil might have existed in heaven 
7.If sin already existed before Adam and Eve..
Yes.Sin would have been created at the same time the universe was created. 




*


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## Blake Bowden (Dec 4, 2013)

Great feedback! I've enjoyed your responses.


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## jwhoff (Dec 4, 2013)

...


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## Blake Bowden (Dec 5, 2013)

Sorry Brother, no discussion as that could lead to a debate. Answers only before I make you clean the chalk board!


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 5, 2013)

1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?
My soul/spirit/whatever would be sent to a "place of waiting" that I would hope would be the "bosom of Abraham". There, like nearly everyone else, I will wait for the Final Judgment.

2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? (Refer to question 1)
As a Saint of my Church wrote to one of his students: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins..."

3. According to your beliefs, what happens if a person never knew God?
We can know of God and know about God but never actually know Him. He's just that "big". Only the infinite can know the infinite. In short nobody knows God and nobody can know God. That being said, if someone was never prosetylized or otherwise exposed such doctrines, it is a matter for God to decide. It is not a legalistic formula.

4. Did the Supreme Architect create evil?
No.

5. If the Supreme Architect did not create evil, where did it originate?
God permitted freedom. His love is such that He voluntarily falls silent if we do not wish to hear Him. Refusing to hear Him is the origin of evil, but even this evil ultimately shall be for the greater glory of God and the ultimate good--it can't be helped.

6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven? 
Only God is perfect. Any being aside from God with free will is imperfect, thus, sin could exist in any heart that has closed itself to God. "Heaven" is nearness to God. Sin cannot abide God, so sin flees from God--or deludes itself into thinking it has.

7. If sin already existed before Adam and Eve...(fill in the blank)
Things are as they are.


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 5, 2013)

JJones said:


> *6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven? *
> Unless I'm mistaken, the devil being banished from heaven is a story that doesn't even exist in the Bible, rather it appears in a book written by Thomas Hobbs called 'Leviathan'.  No, I don't believe sin exists in Heaven as it represents a oneness with God.



Quick jump-in: Hobbes's "Leviathan" is a purely secular piece of political philosophy that makes a case for an all-controlling state. The idea is that humans are innately too selfish to be trusted with democratic government. Milton's "Paradise Lost" gave a great deal of detail to the old Lucifer/Satan legend, but it's much older than Milton, indeed, older than the English language. It may have started as a Hebrew folk tale. I heartily suggest reading Milton, in any case. Excellent work. Hobbes is only for those with a taste for very old political philosophy.


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## JJones (Dec 5, 2013)

BryanMaloney said:


> Quick jump-in: Hobbes's "Leviathan" is a purely secular piece of political philosophy that makes a case for an all-controlling state. The idea is that humans are innately too selfish to be trusted with democratic government. Milton's "Paradise Lost" gave a great deal of detail to the old Lucifer/Satan legend, but it's much older than Milton, indeed, older than the English language. It may have started as a Hebrew folk tale. I heartily suggest reading Milton, in any case. Excellent work. Hobbes is only for those with a taste for very old political philosophy.



Thanks for the info! I'll definitely add Paradise Lost to my book list.


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## Bro. Michael (Dec 8, 2013)

*1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?
*
If I died today, then I would find myself in the presence of God, and I would remain in that presence eternally. Heaven, after all, is not about location but about eternal fellowship with God and His people.

*2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? (Refer to question 1)
*
It is not my place to cast judgement. God knows their hearts, and if they have genuinely sought Him in their lives, then I believe they will have found Him. 

"Seek, and you shall find" Matthew 7:7*
*
Given the absolute truth of God's word, I must accept that a person who truly seeks God, must have found Him. The question then becomes, has a man truly sought God, the answer to which, only the Great Architect knows.

*3. According to your beliefs, what happens if a person never knew God?*

Returning to my previous answer, if a person never knew God, then he never sought God. A person may not know God well (after all how could any mortal comprehend the mind of the one who created Him), but if he has genuinely sought God, then he will know whatever God intended him to know.

*4. Did the Supreme Architect create evil?*

God created all. Light exists but would not be identifiable without darkness. Good exists, but without something to distinguish it, what purpose would it serve? He may not have wanted evil to be acted on, but He must have created it. 

*5. If the Supreme Architect did not create evil, where did it originate?*



*6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven? *

The Devil was banished from heaven for his pride and (for the lack of a better word) treason against God. Sin exists in the heart of a person. Anywhere there are conscious and intelligent creatures with free will there is potential for sin. On the other hand, there is no glory in being worshiped by the unconscious or unintelligent or by that which lacks the freedom to do otherwise.

*7. If sin already existed before Adam and Eve...(fill in the blank)
*
Then humanity cannot blame Adam and Eve for the introduction of sin into the world.


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## Bro. Michael (Dec 8, 2013)

Blake Bowden said:


> According to your beliefs/religion:
> 
> 1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?
> 2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? (Refer to question 1)
> ...



Brother Blake, I would be curious to see your responses to these questions as well. After all, every new perspective carries with it the opportunity to grow and learn.


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## jjjjjggggg (Feb 2, 2014)

1. I believe, as Alan watts put it, as a wave returns to the sea, so shall I return to the Source.

2. Refer to answer 1... we all return to the Source.

3. I'm not sure that anyone cannot know "God". The Source is every where and in all things. I'd say he/it is experience itself.

4. Evil, in my opinion, is a gross understanding of the energy that underlies the universe. A more subtle understanding is to see the interplay of 'yin' and 'yang' as the source itself manifests in the world.

5. Refer to answer 4.

6. A moral lesson wrapped in allegory.

7. Another moral lesson wrapped in allegory interpreted too literally.


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## JamesMichael (Feb 16, 2014)

1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?
To meet Him. 

2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? (Refer to question 1)
To meet Him. 

3. According to your beliefs, what happens if a person never knew God?
To meet Him. 

4. Did the Supreme Architect create evil?
No. Permitted.

5. If the Supreme Architect did not create evil, where did it originate?
Freewill. 

6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven?
Not sure it was heaven. 

7. If sin already existed before Adam and Eve...(fill in the blank)
then so what, they were just the first to give in.


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## rfuller (Feb 18, 2014)

*1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?*
I think there are many different names for what would happen, Heaven, returning to the source, etc...  
*2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? (Refer to question 1)*
I am of the belief that Jesus was the embodiment of the Divine, here to fulfill the law for all of mankind.  The idea of "personal salvation" is a relatively new one.
*3. According to your beliefs, what happens if a person never knew God?*
I don't believe in a Divine so cruel as to be a tally keeper of right/wrong.  I also believe we are all pointing at the same thing with different words, concepts, and notions.  I think the insistence of admittance into the afterlife being only for those who have the exactly correct notions (provided that any fallible human has ever had the perfect combination) is wrong headed and uncompassionate.  
*4. Did the Supreme Architect create evil?*
No.  I think it was allowed as things were set into motion, and the result of self-focus as opposed to compassion.  I believe several systems were set in place to run their course freely.  
*5. If the Supreme Architect did not create evil, where did it originate?*
See above answer.
*6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven? *
I think there is a great deal of the allegory and mythology of the Devil that was filled in later, yet taken as factual.  Personally I think the Devil is allegory for the selfish temptations of mankind.  Also, typically "hell" as interpreted today is better translated to "death" or "ruin" depending on which verses we are discussion.  
*7. If sin already existed before Adam and Eve...(fill in the blank)*
I don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve.  This is a part of the Bible that I believe is allegorical.  I believe that there was early sin.  We know that war is a relatively new concept.  Mankind was more helpful and communal prior to agriculture.  Agriculture giving man the ability to settle and leaving some tribes with more than others created conflict (some because of necessity for starving tribes, some because of jealousy).  I view the jewish law found in the pentateuch as a call from God to pull mankind forward, out of the bronze age.  "Eye for an eye" was a forward step from the human nature of progressive revenge.  (When someone wrongs you, and you then turn around and have the initial desire to exact revenge twofold or tenfold...)  The later as this law was used as an absolute excuse or reason, Jesus taught to turn the other cheek.  Once again, the Divine pulling us forward, toward a more compassionate society.  So, short answer, yes.  Sin existed before Adam and Eve, and the Jewish law was a system to pull us forward to compassion.  Same thing for the teachings of Jesus, yet again calling mankind further toward compassion.


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## goomba (Feb 18, 2014)

1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?
     Heaven.
2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? (Refer to question 1)
     Hell.  However, I do not believe in an everlasting hell.  I believe in Universal Reconciliation to God.  Ergo all will ultimately be reconciled to God.
3. According to your beliefs, what happens if a person never knew God?
     See the answer to question 2.
4. Did the Supreme Architect create evil?
     No.  Evil is not a thing.  It is the absence of a thing and that thing is good.  Ergo evil is the result of their being no good.
5. If the Supreme Architect did not create evil, where did it originate?
     See no. 4.
6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven? 
     As recorded in the book of Job the devil can still enter into heaven.
7. If sin already existed before Adam and Eve...(fill in the blank)
    Beyond my pay grade.


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## jvarnell (Feb 18, 2014)

JJones said:


> Since you asked I will answer.  Be warned my views are a bit muddy and I'm intentionally brief or vague at times to avoid typing walls of text. *
> 
> 1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?*
> Heaven, or closer to it.
> ...


If you had not already answered the way you did I would have so I will just say "What he said"!


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Feb 18, 2014)

*1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?*

I would probably be more relaxed.  Yes I have a spirit.  Don't have a clue what happens.  Hoping for reincarnation.

*2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? (Refer to question 1)*

I am guessing the same for all, but again, comfortable not knowing.

*3. According to your beliefs, what happens if a person never knew God?*

Don't know, don't worry about it.  That is between them and God.

*4. Did the Supreme Architect create evil?*

If I had to guess, I would say humans created evil lol, but that God is aware.

*5. If the Supreme Architect did not create evil, where did it originate?*

Again, not sure, and comfortable not knowing.
*6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven? *

I don't believe this story is literal at all.

*7. If sin already existed before Adam and Eve...(fill in the blank)*

Adam and Eva are fictional, but important, characters in an allegory.  So, yes, evil existed before the author made them up because evil is in the story.


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## Pointwithinacircle (Apr 14, 2014)

*1. What would happen if you died today? If you believe that you have a Spirit, where would it go?
*Perhaps the spirit was never "mine" anymore than the sunlight which falls upon me is "mine".  Perhaps spirit is energy.  When I unplug a light the electrical energy does not "Go" anywhere, it simply waits for a new conduit.*
2. What would happen to those who are of a different religion than your own? (Refer to question 1)
*All people are the same.  To think that what I believe forces God to treat me differently than others seems a little egotistical to me.*
3. According to your beliefs, what happens if a person never knew God?
*Two flowers were planted in a garden.  One flower understood the concept of soil, and the other did not.  Both flowers grew pretty well.*
4. Did the Supreme Architect create evil?
*God created everything.  Only man passes judgement on God's creations, calling some good and some evil. *
5. If the Supreme Architect did not create evil, where did it originate?
*See answer four*
6. If the Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was banished from Heaven, what was the reason? Does that mean sin exists in Heaven? 
*Banishment sounds like the consequences of a choice to me.  All things exist in Heaven, that is what makes it perfect.*
7. If sin already existed before Adam and Eve...(fill in the blank)*
Then what we have is a parable.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Apr 20, 2014)

My beliefs...

1. The "blinders" imposed upon my awareness by this physical experience would no longer exist. To suggest that my spirit would "go" somewhere would be to make unwarranted presumptions about the nature of spirit and awareness. It would be different.

2. Religions are a worldly invention. One's chosen beliefs have almost nothing to do with what happens when we die. The nature of our spirit, our "character" if you will, may have a great deal to do with that.

3. "Knowing" deity is a notion that is presumptuous in the extreme. An earnest pursuit of that knowledge, on the other hand, is one of the things that we are here to do. How we comport ourselves in that pursuit is what matters, I believe.

4. There is no such thing as evil.

5. See above

6. Sin is a largely Christian construct, the breaking of what someone has alleged to be "God's law". Love, on the other hand, or the absence of it, is very real. It is what really matters. It has been said that in the afterlife, the only pain we know is for the love we hold back in in this life. That's a pretty good rule and guide, IMHO.

7. Unsupported premise, therefor conjecture is meaningless.


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## brother josh (Apr 20, 2014)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> My beliefs...
> 
> 1. The "blinders" imposed upon my awareness by this physical experience would no longer exist. To suggest that my spirit would "go" somewhere would be to make unwarranted presumptions about the nature of spirit and awareness. It would be different.
> 
> ...



U seem like a brother that is a man of reason very informative


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## dfreybur (Apr 21, 2014)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> 2. Religions are a worldly invention. One's chosen beliefs have almost nothing to do with what happens when we die. The nature of our spirit, our "character" if you will, may have a great deal to do with that.



I've heard mystics report that "it all gets worked out in the hereafter".  The trouble with mystical experiences is they are all subjective only experienced by one person at a time and each such experience unique.

On the one hand it certainly goes against the teachings of several religions but as you say religions are a worldly invention.  On the other hand whatever happens has to "work" independent of the faith of the person who died.  Reason says it needs to work independent of religion or religious teaching, but there's no rule I know of that says mystical experiences have to follow reason.

Seeing if I can work this out based on mystical experiences that I have had, not that I expect anyone to believe my statements or accept my conclusion just to say if it works for me -

Have you ever had the feeling that the spirit if a dead relative is watching over you, or do you know someone who has reported that?  Great Grandma's spirit used to check in on me regularly.  She didn't stop when I settled into my current sect.  I'm okay with the idea that "it all gets worked out in the hereafter" based on this.  I'm certain it is meaningless to anyone but me and I'm okay with that as well.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Apr 22, 2014)

brother josh said:


> U seem like a brother that is a man of reason...


..._and _faith. Masons must be both. :biggrin:


> very informative


Thank you, Brother. I am pleased that you found it useful.


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## rebis (Apr 29, 2014)

goomba said:


> 4. Did the Supreme Architect create evil?



Isaiah 45:7 KJV

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."




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## vangoedenaam (Apr 29, 2014)

He might have been kidding or misquoted. Im not so sure a book thats been through google translate for 2 centuries, and not counting a lot of papal censureship, is a very reliable historical source of information in these matters. But thats just me. 


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## BryanMaloney (Apr 29, 2014)

rebis said:


> Isaiah 45:7 KJV
> 
> "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."



The KJV is the LAST place anyone should go for exegesis (well, almost the last). Once again, we run into the problem that the English of 1611 is not English as we use it today. The Hebrew word translated as "evil" was translated properly in 1611. In 1611, the English word "evil" did NOT just mean "moral evil". It also meant "misfortune", "bad", "very unpleasant", "distasteful", etc. Moral evil was only one of its potential meanings. Thus, in both Hebrew and 1611 English, it was not referring to moral evil in this particular instance. Since light and darkness are opposites, extending the poetic structure would suggest that "chaos" or "misfortune" would be a better opposition to "peace" in meaning than the modern exclusively moral meaning of evil.

Honestly, the KJV is a work of magnificent poetry. I adore it. I never use it for exegesis here in the 21st century. It's a terrible source for exegesis. Over 500 years ago, it was an excellent translation. It's now 500 years later. The English language has changed since then. After all, no sane person insists that "unicorns" must exist merely because they are mentioned in the KJV, right?


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## BryanMaloney (Apr 29, 2014)

vangoedenaam said:


> He might have been kidding or misquoted. Im not so sure a book thats been through google translate for 2 centuries, and not counting a lot of papal censureship, is a very reliable historical source of information in these matters. But thats just me.



Both of the claims you make about the KJV are simply flat-out wrong.
1:  Except for modernizations of spelling, the KJV is the same translation it was roughly 500 years ago.
2:  The Pope of Rome had nothing at all to do with the KJV.

If you are talking about the Bible in general, you're still flat-out wrong.
1:  The age of the KJV aside, more modern translations are not merely "google translate". They are done using the best methods of the day.
2:  Hello, I'm an Orthodox Christian. The Pope of Rome has never had ANYTHING to do with our Scriptural tradition, not even since the office was created. Contrary to the propaganda of Westernists, there is a whole thread of Christianity that was never beneath the Pope of Rome, and we're not some obscure little Gnostic group.


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## vangoedenaam (Apr 29, 2014)

Im not going to get dragged into an insolvable argument here. So lets stick to facts

The King James Bible translation isnt of orthodox origin.
All major forms of Christianity that did not schism from the papal side of things before it became papal are therefore a direct descendent of that tradition which includes all forms of protestantism, which started with luther. So im not talking orthodox, gnostic or koptic here.

The bible has been translated a lot of times and scholars agree that many mistakes have been made along the line. Some intentionally as certain jnterpretations would fit the church politics of the times. I agree that it isnt fair to the hardworking translators to compare that with the google machinery, but it sort of makes the same point. 

Facts.

In the area of 'belief' we could argue about the original writings being human or divine, we may argue about all the 'it sais this but it means that'-exegesis variants. Im not getting into that argument.

Im not trying to start a riot. But as another comment above already clearly said: the KJV isnt the best resource for exegesis.

And as always: my personal opininion, not approved or endorced by any other than me. 


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## vangoedenaam (Apr 29, 2014)

Oh, i see my typing mistake in my earlier post. I meant to type 20 centuries of google translate, not 2. Silly me.


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## rebis (May 12, 2014)

One of my lodge brothers...a very old fart, war vet and retired police officer said that he was clinically dead for over two minutes according to his surgeon, before being revived. He said that while "dead" there was nothing, just a lapse in his memory.
No white light no god no devil no bliss... Nothing. He said it was as if he did not exist... Just like when first born.


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## BryanMaloney (May 14, 2014)

Therefore, does that mean that you are of the opinion that Freemasons MUST reject Christianity?


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## CajunTinMan (May 16, 2014)

As far as questions numbers 1, 2, and 3.  I am a Christian and I believe that the Bible is the literal inspired word of God which explicitly answers these questions.

For questions 4, 5, 6, and 7, I believe that evil was not created but is inherent. I believe that it is what exist in the absence of God. When Satan turned on God, he was no longer in God's grace and therefore his actions were inherently evil.


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## BryanMaloney (May 19, 2014)

If I were to say something to my six-year-old son, and he wanted to remember it, he'd do his best, but he would probably not present a perfect picture. Which translation of the Bible is the "literal inspired word of God"? What if the translations differ? Which manuscript tradition is the "literal inspired word of God"? Just trying to pin that down so we all know which one to follow in a completely "literal" sense and there is no more possibility of confusion.

What is "inherent"? Do you mean "uncreated"? If it is "uncreated", then evil is God for any Christian, since, in Christian cosmogeny, God is the only Uncreated, eternal, without beginning, without creation, without end.


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## CajunTinMan (May 20, 2014)

I am not trying to get caught up in the translation issues. The meanings, with minor variations, are the same. As far as "uncreated" I don't know how you stretched "inherent" that far but no.  That's not what it means.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (May 20, 2014)

CajunTinMan said:


> I am not trying to get caught up in the translation issues. The meanings,* with minor variations, are the same*.


If you spend the time and effort to really look, you will find that this is patently untrue.


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## BryanMaloney (May 20, 2014)

CajunTinMan said:


> I am not trying to get caught up in the translation issues. The meanings, with minor variations, are the same. As far as "uncreated" I don't know how you stretched "inherent" that far but no.  That's not what it means.



Then what does "inherent" mean?


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## CajunTinMan (May 21, 2014)

We'll my good Brothers. This why we don't talk about religion in the lodge.  I was willing to state my personal beliefs because the question was asked.  But if you want to continue to  try to tear at my beliefs that's ok.
As far as inherent Brother Bryan, being a learned man, you should know that there are things in science that cannot exist without an opposite.  For example.  For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  That is inherent.
  As far as substantial differences between the versions of the Bible.  I have researched the Greek and English translations. And the differences between the English translations.  Yes there are changes in the meanings but they are not substantial to the overall whole of the message of the Bible.


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## BryanMaloney (May 21, 2014)

Actually, the "equal and opposite reaction" thing doesn't necessarily exist in all cases, not when you get down to the quantum level. For example, light can break Newton's 3rd Law under certain circumstances. Thus, we are again needing a definition of "inherent" that applies to evil. Are you saying that God is incomplete without evil? If evil must exist because God cannot exist without evil existing, then that means that evil is necessary for the existence of God, thus God must depend upon something that is not Him to maintain His existence.


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## BroBook (May 21, 2014)

Evil was/is a cancer !!!


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## CajunTinMan (May 21, 2014)

Brother Brian. You seem to be reading a lot into what I'm saying. It's not the question of can exist it's a question of does it exist.  Does evil exist? Yes.  Did evil exist in heaven? Yes. Satan's rebellion towards God was evil.


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## rebis (May 22, 2014)

CajunTinMan said:


> ...there are things in science that cannot exist without an opposite.



...and that is the quintessential base of all truth.

Thank you Bro. Cajun for the courage of sharing such pearls of truth.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (May 22, 2014)

CajunTinMan said:


> I have researched the Greek and English translations. And the differences between the English translations.  Yes there are changes in the meanings but they are not substantial to the overall whole of the message of the Bible.


Sorry, but that just is not true. Even the most cursory trip through  Google's suggestions for "bible translation errors" will make that plain. There are, as one would expect in a volume with such a long history, a great many errors in any given contemporary version of the xtian bible. But let's set that aside, and confine our discussion to just those "contemporary" English editions. Let us further confine our discussion to those editions purporting to be the KJV. You have stipulated that while they may be subtle, there are differences. So which one is the complete, true, and unerring word of god, then? Says who, and by what authority? By your own admission, you are willing to judge literal differences as inconsequential. I say that's fine, but to suggest that everyone will arrive at the same conclusions you have is naive, dangerously so, because people tend to get testy when confronted with a conflicting view of what "god" meant. In other words, the only inviolate "truth" in anything transcribed and printed by humans is in how we interpret this or that passage when we read it. Such is the nature of spiritual things. Insisting that it is otherwise is a recipe for disharmony.


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## CajunTinMan (May 22, 2014)

[QUOTE="In other words, the only inviolate "truth" in anything transcribed and printed by humans is in how we interpret this or that passage when we read it. Such is the nature of spiritual things. Insisting that it is otherwise is a recipe for disharmony."[/QUOTE]


Again, this is why we don't discuss religion in the lodge. But if you ask me what I believe I will tell you.  If you think my answer could possibly create disharmony then it would probably be better not to ask the question.   My beliefs are my beliefs.  I stand by them.  You have your own beliefs which is the way it should be.  Each to their own.  Peace and harmony.


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## vangoedenaam (May 23, 2014)

Separation of religion and state is aimed at the same prevention of disharmony. Religion must remain a private thing. Same in lodge. Private beliefs can be shared and compared but not be 'discussed' or 'debated'. I think its a good thing as it makes ppl of different faith equal, allowing us to remain on the level. 


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## BryanMaloney (May 23, 2014)

CajunTinMan said:


> [QUOTE="In other words, the only inviolate "truth" in anything transcribed and printed by humans is in how we interpret this or that passage when we read it. Such is the nature of spiritual things. Insisting that it is otherwise is a recipe for disharmony."




Again, this is why we don't discuss religion and the lodge. But if ask me what I believe I will tell you.  If you think my answer could possibly create disharmony then it would probably be better not to ask the question.   My beliefs are my beliefs.  I stand by them.  You have your own beliefs which is the way it should be.  Each to their own.  Peace and harmony.[/QUOTE]


Your explanation of "inherent" was that some things cannot exist without an opposite. Therefore, if that is what you mean, then you mean that God cannot exist without evil.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (May 23, 2014)

CajunTinMan said:


> Again, this is why we don't discuss religion and the lodge. But if ask me what I believe I will tell you.


You are still missing the point. 
We have stipulated that each of us is entitled to his beliefs, and that no Mason should take issue with another's belief. Spiritual truth is what we _believe _it is. 
The accuracy of this or that translation of a particular piece of literature, on the other hand, is not a matter of belief. It is a fact, discoverable and knowable.  While there is often room for debate about the details, the fact of the matter is that the differences and inconsistencies are plainly real. You asserted that they were not. That's not a statement of belief. "I believe _x_, because my chosen book says _x _is so..." is a statement of belief and as such, is unassailable. "I believe that _x _means the same as _y...",  _not so much.


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## CajunTinMan (May 23, 2014)

Then can you elaborate on what you feel are the complete and utter changes to the meanings of the messages contained in the variations of the recognized standard versions of the Bible.


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## CajunTinMan (May 23, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> Again, this is why we don't discuss religion and the lodge. But if ask me what I believe I will tell you.  If you think my answer could possibly create disharmony then it would probably be better not to ask the question.   My beliefs are my beliefs.  I stand by them.  You have your own beliefs which is the way it should be.  Each to their own.  Peace and harmony.




Your explanation of "inherent" was that some things cannot exist without an opposite. Therefore, if that is what you mean, then you mean that God cannot exist without evil.[/QUOTE]


I never said that he cannot. I said that evil does exist.  Can you explain with certainty how it came about. Or do you have an opinion like I do.


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## CajunTinMan (May 23, 2014)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> Sorry, but that just is not true. Even the most cursory trip through Google's suggestions for "bible translation errors" will make that plain. There are, as one would expect in a volume with such a long history, a great many errors in any given contemporary version of the xtian bible.



May I ask, my good Brother,  if are you attempting to assert that the Book of my faith is in error and that because my faith is predicated on its teachings, then my beliefs are false?  Is that what you're attempting to say?

Or is it as in Masonry, where you can travel from state to state and find that the wording within the ritual work will vary, but the meaning in the message stays the same.


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## BryanMaloney (May 23, 2014)

CajunTinMan said:


> Your explanation of "inherent" was that some things cannot exist without an opposite. Therefore, if that is what you mean, then you mean that God cannot exist without evil.




I never said that he cannot. I said that evil does exist.  Can you explain with certainty how it came about. Or do you have an opinion like I do.[/QUOTE]

You said that evil is "inherent"--you word.
You then tried to explain "inherent" by stating that some things CANNOT exist without their opposites. Therefore, you are saying that God CANNOT exist without evil, meaning that God NEEDS evil.


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## CajunTinMan (May 23, 2014)

Whoa cowboy.  Your stretching this way to far. I do stick by what I said. I also said that what exist in the absence of God is evil.

Wherever there is light, there cannot be darkness. If light is withdrawn from anywhere, that place becomes dark.  Darkness was not created.  Light was created. Darkness is inherent because it exist in the absence of light.

Do you feel that God created evil?  If so, for what reason?  And if not, where did it come from?


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## BryanMaloney (May 24, 2014)

CajunTinMan said:


> Whoa cowboy.  Your stretching this way to far. I do stick by what I said. I also said that what exist in the absence of God is evil.
> 
> Wherever there is light, there cannot be darkness. If light is withdrawn from anywhere, that place becomes dark.  Darkness was not created.  Light was created. Darkness is inherent because it exist in the absence of light.
> 
> Do you feel that God created evil?  If so, for what reason?  And if not, where did it come from?



In that case, darkness is not "inherent", darkness is merely a "tautology". Two very different meanings. I have already stated on this thread what I consider to be the origin of evil, feel free to read it. I stated it clearly.


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## gwardell (May 24, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> ... The trouble with mystical experiences is they are all subjective only experienced by one person at a time and each such experience  is unique. ...



True, and  each person may interpret a similar experience differently, and one person experiencing the same thing twice, separated by time, may also interpret it differently.

I think that is the essence of a mystical experience.


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## CajunTinMan (May 24, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> 5. If the Supreme Architect did not create evil, where did it originate?
> God permitted freedom. His love is such that He voluntarily falls silent if we do not wish to hear Him. Refusing to hear Him is the origin of evil, but even this evil ultimately shall be for the greater glory of God and the ultimate good--it can't be helped.



So you're saying that evil created itself?  Or, are you saying that evil was created by man?  Both would be impossible.

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they_ be_ thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"  Colossians 1:16

So where did it come from?

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things." Isaiah 45:7

So, we have established that it was created by God. But why?

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5.

I believe it was "inherently" created with the light.  It is the darkness when there is no light.  Again, I believe it is the absence of God.

It's not "tautology".


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## JohnnyFlotsam (May 26, 2014)

CajunTinMan said:


> May I ask, my good Brother,  if are you attempting to assert that the Book of my faith is in error and that because my faith is predicated on its teachings, then my beliefs are false?  Is that what you're attempting to say?


Not in the least. If you had taken the time to actually read  and understand my posts, that much would be clear. 
To repeat myself yet again, matters of faith are not in question here. You assertions that words with differing meanings "all mean the same thing", on the other hand, is. How you resolve those inconsistencies is for you and you alone to decide.


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## BryanMaloney (May 28, 2014)

CajunTinMan said:


> So you're saying that evil created itself?  Or, are you saying that evil was created by man?  Both would be impossible.
> 
> "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they_ be_ thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"  Colossians 1:16
> 
> ...




No, I am saying that evil does not have a positive existence. Evil is not a thing. Light exists. Darkness does not. Darknes is merely what a limited mind calls "absence of light".  However, light DOES NOT REQUIRE DARKNESS TO EXIST. They are not mutually "inherent". If evil is created, as you say it was, then who created it? I say that it was not created. Darkness is not a thing. It is the lack of a thing. Light does not require darkness to exist. You stated that evil vs. God is just like the Third Law of Newton--and in that case BOTH forces require the other to exist. Thus, you stated that God requires evil to exist.


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## gwardell (May 28, 2014)

CajunTinMan said:


> So, we have established that it was created by God. But why?
> 
> ".



Because without contrast we don't know the difference. Without light we can't see the darkness. And without darkness we can't know the light. Without warmth you don't know the cold, and without cold you don't know warmth. Without contrast everything would be flat, and there would be no point to anything. 


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## jjjjjggggg (May 28, 2014)

No offense brothers, but arguing for the existence of evil smells of the reification fallacy... treating an abstract idea as something concrete.


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## marty15chris (May 30, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> No offense brothers, but arguing for the existence of evil smells of the reification fallacy... treating an abstract idea as something concrete.
> 
> 
> Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App




I agree, well both make valid arguments, both are using logic vs belief. Of which none of us are fully qualified to make except the GAOU. Hence why religion ideology is not to be discussed in lodge. As to this forum we can discuss it, and so for the better as long as we can part on.....  


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