# Interested but concerned



## RobertTheBruce

Hello all, I am a young man from West Virginia who is interested in petitioning one of my local lodges, but I have some concerns. I have heard some very unsettling things about the state of Freemasonry in West Virginia and have heard it referred to as the North Korea of US Freemasonry. I was hoping perhaps there were some Masons from West Virginia or who have spent time in a WV Lodge who could alleviate some of my concerns.
I was considering perhaps waiting, I had been considering moving to another state and thought that maybe if I were I should just wait to petition in another jurisdiction.

My concerns include issues involving the Grand Lodge and it's lack of recognition for appendant bodies, lack of recognition of Prince Hall Masons, and a whole bunch of unnecessary outdated bylaws that will likely never be changed. Also unsettling to me is that the Grand Lodge of West Virginia has been called by current and former WV Masons, an "old boys club."

Some of you I'm sure (as I've read already) will recommend "being the change you want to see" and ect but from what I've read I'm not so sure that's an entirely wise decision.

So as I stated, I would love some input, some advice. Not just on Freemasonry in WV but in general for someone who is contemplating petitioning. Just looking for some clarification and advice.

Thanks in advance.


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## coachn

To what other state are you considering moving?


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## Glen Cook

I know some good Masons in WV, including one of the counsel in the _Haas_ matter.  

There is no problem with appendant bodies. 

The reference to N Korea is unfortunate and inappropriate. 

The fraternity is a mirror of the culture in which it is found. 

You will find weaknesses in any jurisdiction.  

It depends on what you are looking for.


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## MarkR

Glen Cook said:


> There is no problem with appendant bodies.


I am under the impression that lodges are prohibited from allowing Eastern Star or the youth groups to use their lodge facilities.


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## Glen Cook

MarkR said:


> I am under the impression that lodges are prohibited from allowing Eastern Star or the youth groups to use their lodge facilities.


Was that not stricken in 2006?  

A  review of this website indicates a number of OES bodies meet in lodges. http://www.wveasternstar.org/Chapters/16_cottageville_chapter.html
UGLE does not allow its members to be members of OES and I, for one, do not consider them an appendant body. (Let's see if I can set someone off there).


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## Glen Cook

JamestheJust said:


> You might like to park outside a local lodge and watch the brethren as they go in.  Are they your sort of people?


Yeah, that's not creepy.


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## coachn

JamestheJust said:


> You might like to park outside a local lodge and watch the brethren as they go in.  Are they your sort of people?


And if you see orbs and wafers floating around there heads as they walk by, you might want to think twice about joining that specific lodge.


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## RobertTheBruce

coachn said:


> To what other state are you considering moving?


I have considered moving to Ohio, Virginia or Maryland. In that order.




Glen Cook said:


> I know some good Masons in WV, including one of the counsel in the _Haas_ matter.
> 
> There is no problem with appendant bodies.
> 
> The reference to N Korea is unfortunate and inappropriate.
> 
> The fraternity is a mirror of the culture in which it is found.
> 
> You will find weaknesses in any jurisdiction.
> 
> It depends on what you are looking for.


What I heard about the issues concerns appendant bodies was that
A) None of the appendants are recognized firstly
B) The GL of WV prohibits any non blue lodge organization from meeting in the lodge, and there is essentially no support of the youth organizations such as DeMolay, Rainbow and Job's Daughters.

Here is a specific list of issues I had been hearing about that I pulled off another website.
_1. The Grand Lodge of West Virginia forbids the Pledge of Allegiance at lodge meetings._

_2. The Grand Lodge of West Virginia is the only Grand Lodge to refuse by law to allow DeMolay, Rainbow, or Job’s Daughters to meet in any lodge rooms. Their lodges are forbidden from donating any money to any charitable organization, including Masonic youth organizations or permitting them to earn money on the lodge premises._

_3. The Grand Lodge of West Virginia is the only Grand Lodge in the United States not to belong to the Masonic Service Association._

_4. The Grand Lodge of West Virginia forbids the charter of a Royal Arch Chapter to hang in its lodge rooms. No Masonic art that includes symbols of any other Masonic organization except the symbolic lodge can hang in West Virginia lodge rooms (this includes portraits of Past Grand High Priests and Past Grand Commanders). The Grand Lodge of West Virginia has banned books, movies, slideshows, songs, CD’s, an Ohio singer, and websites._

_5. Family members cannot be pallbearers at a Masonic Funeral in West Virginia unless they are Masons. The ashes of a deceased brother cannot receive a Masonic Funeral in West Virginia, because it is by their Masonic law declared “undignified.”_

_6. Almost no one with a physical disability can be elected to receive the degree of Freemasonry in a Lodge under The Grand Lodge of West Virginia. The cause of the injury, be it military service or anything else, does not matter._


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## RobertTheBruce

Regardless I do intend on one day petitioning and hopefully I will eventually count myself among you all as a Freemason.
Thank you all for your answers so far.


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## Glen Cook

RobertTheBruce said:


> Regardless I do intend on one day petitioning and hopefully I will eventually count myself among you all as a Freemason.
> Thank you all for your answers so far.


The answers I can provide:

UGLE does not recognize appendant bodies either.  This is not unusual.  My affiliation with Masons of WVA is through the appendant bodies.
No, WVA is not a member of MSA (confirmed w/ the MSA)
I do not call for the Pledge of Allegiance when I chair a meeting.  
Other GL's have limits on physical (and mental) disabilities.
Wyoming kicked out DeMolay c. 2008 in a chest pounding match between the GM of DeMolay and the GM of Wyoming.  
I would double check the 2006 legislation as to the current status of youth groups meeting in a lodge room.


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## RobertTheBruce

Glen Cook said:


> The answers I can provide:
> 
> UGLE does not recognize appendant bodies either.  This is not unusual.  My affiliation with Masons of WVA is through the appendant bodies.
> No, WVA is not a member of MSA (confirmed w/ the MSA)
> I do not call for the Pledge of Allegiance when I chair a meeting.
> Other GL's have limits on physical (and mental) disabilities.
> Wyoming kicked out DeMolay c. 2008 in a chest pounding match between the GM of DeMolay and the GM of Wyoming.
> I would double check the 2006 legislation as to the current status of youth groups meeting in a lodge room.


Thanks for your quick answers, I appreciate it. Many of my concerns have been alleviated since posting this. Perhaps one day if I am lucky enough to be accepted into the Fraternity, we might perhaps meet someday and I can give you my thanks in person.

Also, I have been wondering about if I should go ahead and petition now or wait until I live on my own. I'm only 21, still a student, only employed part-time and still living with my parents. I asked in my introductory post if I should perhaps wait until I have moved out on my own to petition, as that would probably help. And the only answer was "yes wait." However I have heard from one of my friends who is a Mason that he petitioned when he was my age and still lived with his parents. Although his father is also a Mason and mother is OES, and I'd be willing to bet though I'd never bothered to ask, that he was also DeMolay. I myself have no direct relatives that are Masons to my knowledge, just one distant cousin whom I have no way of contacting, except through his lodge. So I'm still not sure if I should just wait, or go ahead and try.
Hypothetically if I did choose to petition now and get turned down, I can just keep trying can't I?

Thanks again.


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## dfreybur

RobertTheBruce said:


> I have considered moving to Ohio, Virginia or Maryland. In that order.



Taken literally that would be quite a traveling plan!  Then again I've lived in more states than that list so it does actually happen ...

If you're going to move, move first to a place you may be stable for a while.  No because of issues where you are but because being settled for a few years makes the experience deeper and more satisfying.


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## RobertTheBruce

dfreybur said:


> Taken literally that would be quite a traveling plan!  Then again I've lived in more states than that list so it does actually happen ...
> 
> If you're going to move, move first to a place you may be stable for a while.  No because of issues where you are but because being settled for a few years makes the experience deeper and more satisfying.


I believe I misspoke. I meant, EITHER Ohio, Virginia or Maryland, in the order that I'm leaning towards likelihood of moving to. Sorry for the confusion. And I don't plan on moving until after I graduate, which will be a while. The move would likely be permanent, I was looking for a new state to live in with more liberal minded people, but still close to home so I can see my family. If I moved to Ohio I'd just be right across the river.
I had assumed I could just transfer jurisdictions. It will likely be 2018 or beyond until I've moved out of the state. Which is why I asked if I should just go ahead. Or perhaps wait until I'm living on my own, still in WV.


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## Glen Cook

Since you asked, my view would be that school and working are enough now, but that is just a personal view.  

I do not believe any of the issues you outline would be disqualifying.

Some Jurisdictions limit the time between petitions.  I don't know about West Virginia 

 You can't just transfer membership, you half to apply to affiliate with the new jurisdiction. Indeed, even if your lodge should close for some reason, you must apply to affiliate with the new lodge.


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## Ripcord22A

Liberal minded people?  I dont think ive ever met a liberal mason....


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## MarkR

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Liberal minded people?  I dont think ive ever met a liberal mason....


Seriously?  I certainly have.  Quite a few, in fact.


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## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> And if you see orbs and wafers floating around there heads as they walk by, you might want to think twice about joining that specific lodge.


LOL!!!!


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## coachn

Warrior1256 said:


> LOL!!!!


Hey now, floating orbs and wafers are some serious matters.


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## Brother JC

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Liberal minded people?  I dont think ive ever met a liberal mason....


Take a look around next Wednesday, you're sure to see several.


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## dfreybur

RobertTheBruce said:


> I had assumed I could just transfer jurisdictions. It will likely be 2018 or beyond until I've moved out of the state. Which is why I asked if I should just go ahead. Or perhaps wait until I'm living on my own, still in WV.



A transfer between jurisdictions is called an affiliation with demit.  It's just a bunch of paperwork and a vote and you're a member of the next lodge instead.  More paperwork and time to do it between jurisdictions that between jurisdictions but the general process is the same.

Most jurisdictions allow you to be a member of as many lodges and as many jurisdictions as you like.  I do that as listed in my signature that's visible in the web interface but not the mobile interface.  You ask to affiliate, fill out the paperwork, get voted on, more dues bills arrive every year.

A few jurisdictions only allow a brother to be a member of exactly one lodge so transfers are mandatory.  I think WV is one of these jurisdictions.  It's part of why I suggested the idea of waiting until you will be in a single location longer.  If you take your degrees in WV you might not have the option of building up a collection of memberships.

That said the only real issue is that most brothers desire to take all of their degrees and proficiencies in their mother lodge.  There are degrees by courtesy which is usual with lodge stuff involves a bunch of paperwork and patience to split your degrees among lodges.  Since you have several years there is plenty of time.

The ritual is different jurisdiction to jurisdiction.  There is memorization work for each degree.  If you learn it in one jurisdiction and you're done, you're done.   But if you ever want to go through the officer line, the local proficiencies teach a lot of the ritual work for that jurisdiction.  Doing your proficiencies in the same jurisdiction as the one you go through the chairs is more efficient.  I very much liked going through the chairs serving my lodge.

It does work to learn it all again.  Having moved around a lot I've learned California and Illinois rituals and am currently learning Texas.  But I'm a long term enthusiast.  That's not something a candidate can know they will be.  The reasons I stay active and enthusiastic are different from the reasons I petitioned int he first place.


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## dfreybur

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Liberal minded people?  I dont think ive ever met a liberal mason....



The word you were looking for is "libertine" not "liberal".  I'm not sure I know any royalist brothers, so ...


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## Warrior1256

Ec


coachn said:


> Hey now, floating orbs and wafers are some serious matters.


Excuse me, you're right coachn, I shouldn't laugh about such important matters (snicker, snicker).


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## Ripcord22A

Brother JC said:


> Take a look around next Wednesday, you're sure to see several.


Other than scott, Johny Rheaders, and AJ i havent had too many indepth convos but everyone seems to be pretty close to my thought processes


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## Ripcord22A

dfreybur said:


> The word you were looking for is "libertine" not "liberal".  I'm not sure I know any royalist brothers, so ...


No meant liberal as in left wing.


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## NY.Light.II

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> No meant liberal as in left wing.



If I am accepted as a brother, I would be a liberal (as in left wing) mason.


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## MarkR

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> No meant liberal as in left wing.


Again, I personally know quite a few.


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## Glen Cook

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> No meant liberal as in left wing.


Take a look  over to Reddit where even moderates  are a minority. Note, be prepared for a disapointment in Masonic behavior. https://www.reddit.com/r/freemasonry


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## Ripcord22A

We are tredding dangerously close to makeing this a political discussion and with the election looming tempers might flare so im gonna leave this one alone....#hillaryforprison2016....lol sorry i had to


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## coachn

<snicker> Get ready for a liberal education!


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## Bloke

dfreybur said:


> I'm not sure I know any royalist brothers, so ...



Come to Australia, a Commonwealth Country, we, including the Republicans in our lodge, toast the Queen at our Festive Board.

"The Golden Fleece’s song is characteristic of our visitor’s songs, although many are shorter. Drinking “to the bonds of masonry/friendship” is common as are the celebration of fraternity and the values of Freemasonry. These songs are used in our “Souths” (Festive Boards) and generally sung after the toast to the visitors, and before the visitors respond. The Lodge will be upstanding while visitors are seated, often lodges will move around the room and clink glasses with as many visitors as they can while the song is being sung. American readers might be surprised to see a reference to the Queen. This of course is the Queen of England who is our head of state – Australia"

The price of dinner at the link might surprise you http://www.lodgedevotion.net/devoti...odges/lodge-of-the-golden-fleece-uglv-2011-03


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