# The Age Old Question: Is Freemasonry A Religion?



## Squire Bentley (Jul 28, 2014)

http://freemasoninformation.com/2014/07/the-age-old-question-is-freemasonry-a-religion/

Frederic L. Milliken


----------



## jjjjjggggg (Jul 28, 2014)

In the broadest sense of the term, yes.


----------



## BryanMaloney (Jul 28, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> In the broadest sense of the term, yes.



In no sense at all of the term is it a religion. None at all, unless you "broaden" the word "religion" to mean "anything you darn well want to call 'religion' no matter what".


----------



## jjjjjggggg (Jul 28, 2014)

Bryan, even a quick peek on Wikipedia of all places references good sources on to why freemasonry can be considered a religion. It may not fit your personal definition, but it does fit several interpretations of meeting the definition by several academics. Why is that so hard to accept?


----------



## BryanMaloney (Jul 28, 2014)

dalinkou said:


> At this point, I do not believe that anyone, no matter how thorough the answer, will provide you with anything that you will accept.  If you want to define Masonry as religion, you will always be able to find someone to support your wishes.  If you want to find inherent conflict with Christianity (or any other faith for that matter), you will always find that also.




That's been exactly my point the entire time. He wants a fight between Freemasonry and Christianity. He wants Freemasonry to be incompatible with Christianity.


----------



## jjjjjggggg (Jul 28, 2014)

Bryan, again go back and read everything I stated. In no place have I ever said the two are incompatible. I am not looking for a fight. You have a victim complex in that you for some reason feel threatened by an honest inquiry. You made baseless assumptions about my intentions instead of addressing my questions directly, which others did on the thread quite well as well as in private messages. But for some reason you are so fragile that when anyone calls into question anything that is obviously sensative to you, you begin to passively aggressively attack them... Not just me but other folks in other threads. I wished I would have been aware of the ignore user function. Now I do, so you're going on the list... I don't have time for whiny bullies.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Jul 28, 2014)

It has been my observation that the forum members do not all share the same concept of what constitutes religion.  Additionally, they do not share a common definition of the nature of Freemasonry.  Therefore I see little chance of constructive dialog.  The only way I can see for people to understand each others position on this issue would be for posters to complete these three statements:

1. I believe religion is ...
2. I believe Freemasonry is ...
3. I believe these are compatible/not compatible because ...

Other than that I am left to guess what you are talking about.


----------



## jjjjjggggg (Jul 28, 2014)

1. Religion is a hard word to assign a strict definition to. Etymologists and philologists have gone back and forth on the issue. In the narrow sense only very few religions would make the cut, and in the broad sense many world views and philosophies are included, including those that lack an explicit theistic concept (such as those found in eastern religions).

2. Freemasonry is a fraternity rich with symbolism that teaches a "system of morality". It also requires a belief in deity. The two alone are enough to define freemasonry as a religion. Freemasonry includes feast days, emphasis on personal ethics, a list of "saints" that are collectively venerated. A hierarchy of leadership and reverence for a list of sacred books. Freemasonry offers an answer, whether literal or symbolic, of a hope for an afterlife, and a means to obtain it (recovering the lost word).

Freemasonry already has strong religious roots in many of the worlds religious traditions, especially those of the mystical and esoteric side.

3. Freemasonry is absolutely compatible with religion for all the reasons stated above. 

Brother Ernest Borgnine said that freemasonry was enough religion for him, and I concur. I've greatly enjoyed my masonic experience, and appreciate writers such as Wilmshurst, Hall, and Porter, who have revealed the connection that masonry has with it's early mystical and esoteric roots. Whether literal or not, the symbology within masonry meets my own personal definition for religion and provides something for me to daily contemplate and an ideal to strive for.


----------



## Rick Carver (Jul 28, 2014)

Let me explain, Brother, because after reading it again, my post came out more jaded than I intended. What I am trying to point out is the basic building blocks of Freemasonry and of Religion. Both require dedication of your time in order to get much out of them. Church is usually attended on a specific day of the week, and in order to become involved in teaching/learning endeavors and various work on committees and volunteerism, one can easily dedicate a majority of you free time to the Church.  I AM NOT saying this is bad thing.  We likewise feel the need to contribute financially to the support of the Church as well as its various financial charities. This is also morally our responsibility to help others in as much as we can.

Freemasonry makes similar demands on its incumbents. We go to Lodge meetings, and if you show up on a regular basis, you will likely find yourself somewhere in “the line,” mandating even further involvement. We migrate to Masonry’s various appending and invitational bodies and end up in their lines. Freemasonry, as well as religion, through curiosity causes us to quest for more Light. Both oblige us to buy books/DVD’s/tapes/etc., travel and to attend various gathering where we find greater insight on this information.

Lastly, both do require a financial commitment. We support our Churches through tithing and with financial gift and donations outside the strict adherence to the standard 10%. We work those car washes, bake and rummage sales—usually donating whatever it is being sold. Freemasonry is no different. We pay dues, Grand Lodge Per Capita to multiple organizations and sometimes multiple jurisdictions as well as those damn fish frys. We also make periodic donations to assist a specific worthy Brother or aid worthy causes.

Nearly all of us have a limited and finite amount of disposable income to give. One thing I have tried to teach my children is that you only get to spend time or money once. If you give most of it to A, then B suffers the loss.  This is (again, IMHO) where the incongruence arises. Once religion learns that men are giving this finite resource to Masonry, it becomes easy to deaminize it in order to help recoup the loss. Historically, we know this has often happened.

Most of us who wear the Square & Compasses to church have some kind of story to tell about some old lady who saw it and scolded them as “going to hell for being in that cult.” They have no factual basis for this belief other than “some guy” told her that it was so.

This is in no way intended to demean religion.


----------



## admarcus1 (Jul 28, 2014)

Rick Carver said:


> Nearly all of us have a limited and finite amount of disposable income to give. One thing I have tried to teach my children is that you only get to spend time or money once. If you give most of it to A, then B suffers the loss.  This is (again, IMHO) where the incongruence arises. Once religion learns that men are giving this finite resource to Masonry, it becomes easy to deaminize it in order to help recoup the loss.


This asses that the time and money spent on Masonry would otherwise go to your church, that any extra minute or dollar you had would be dedicated to your church. I suppose this may be so for some, but most people, I imagine, pursue other interests as well. In my case, it does not take away anything at all from my synagogue. My planned giving to my synagogue and to any other philanthropies is unchanged. In fact, Freemasonry has increased the time I give to my temple. I was recently asked by the synagogue leadership to take on the task of maintaining the schedule of the daily evening prayers to ensure the presence of a quorum every night.  My first impulse was to politely decline, but I remembered the lessons of my degrees, and agreed to take on that responsibility. 

There are lots of things I do with my time and money which fulfill difference needs and desires. For me, my synagogue Andy lodge fulfill related but separate purposes. They don't take away from each other. In terms if time, Freemasonry has probably cut most into listening to music, and pursuing one of hobbies quite as much as I would like. 





Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


----------



## phulseapple (Jul 28, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> 2. Freemasonry is a fraternity rich with symbolism that teaches a "system of morality". It also requires a belief in deity. The two alone are enough to define freemasonry as a religion. Freemasonry includes feast days, emphasis on personal ethics, a list of "saints" that are collectively venerated. A hierarchy of leadership and reverence for a list of sacred books. Freemasonry offers an answer, whether literal or symbolic, of a hope for an afterlife, and a means to obtain it (recovering the lost word).


The issue is that Freemasonry lacks the most fundamental characteristic, there is no worship involved in the Fraternity.  Holding a prayer at the opening of and closing of lodge is no different than a town hall or corporate board meeting.  Freemasonry is neither a religion nor a substitute for it.  When practiced fully and correctly though, it will enhance your practice of the Faith of your acceptance.   

As for attaining an afterlife, I have seen nowhere in any of the bodies that I belong to, where it says that recovering the lost Word is a means to obtaining anything of the sort.  Claims of such, just sound like the work of Dan Brown.  While I enjoyed the story, the antagonists belief that discovering the Lost Word would gain him power, is simply laughable.


----------



## jjjjjggggg (Jul 28, 2014)

phulseapple said:


> The issue is that Freemasonry lacks the most fundamental characteristic, there is no worship involved in the Fraternity.  Holding a prayer at the opening of and closing of lodge is no different than a town hall or corporate board meeting.  Freemasonry is neither a religion nor a substitute for it.  When practiced fully and correctly though, it will enhance your practice of the Faith of your acceptance.



Except in the broad definition of "religion" worship of a deity is not necessary. Buddhism is a religion, as is Taoism, but neither have a prescribed manner of worship for a specific deity (unless you count the mix of local folk religion with both).



> As for attaining an afterlife, I have seen nowhere in any of the bodies that I belong to, where it says that recovering the lost Word is a means to obtaining anything of the sort.  Claims of such, just sound like the work of Dan Brown.  While I enjoyed the story, the antagonists belief that discovering the Lost Word would gain him power, is simply laughable.



Whether either meant to be literal or not, both Wilmshurst in "The Meaning of Masonry" and Hall in "The Lost Keys of Freemasonry" both elucidate such. Same with Pike ("Morals and Dogma"), Mackey ("Encyclopedia of Freemasonry"), and others who have written on the subject. But whether or not they meant to go beyond allegory is theirs to decide, however, they did make the point as such. By no means are any of these authors the absolute authority on masonry, and all have stressed it was their opinion alone to hold, as do I.


----------



## phulseapple (Jul 28, 2014)

On a very broad sense, I can get behind that line of thinking.  However, applying the compasses, there must be a limit to keep within due bounds.  Too broad a definition, and one can easily deduce that any activity could be considered a Religion.  

The topic is a good one, but it is often one that divides, rather than unites.


----------



## Brother JC (Jul 28, 2014)

As Rex Hutchens is so fond of throwing on the table, read James 1:27.


----------



## Illuminatio (Jul 28, 2014)

Since being initiated a few months ago now, I've done a fair amount of reading and learned that this is not really a cut and dry subject for everyone. It's definitely a deep one, and not one I'm ready to fully jump into being as new as I am. But for the sake of the conversation here, I just thought I'd post what the official booklet I received at the conclusion of my in-home interview says concerning this. For me personally, coming from a fairly strict upbringing and having my own steadfast beliefs, I appreciated and took comfort in what it said and knowing that the intention was not to take the place of my religion, especially since that was my primary hesitation before joining the fraternity. 

From the booklet, "On The Threshold", (copyright 2011, The Most Worshipful Grand Lodge Of Ancient Free and Accepted Masons of the State of Illinois; developed by the Illinois Committee on Masonic Education):

_"Freemasonry and Religion

Every man who wants to be a Mason must state his belief and trust in a Supreme Being. We do not require that you belong to a specific religion, although many Masons are very active in their churches, mosques, temples, synagogues, or places of worship. Members have the right to belong to any place of worship they want, and Freemasonry does not infringe on that right. However, members should not attempt to substitute the teachings of Freemasonry or membership in a lodge for their religion. Masonry seeks only to unit men for the purpose of brotherhood, and not religion.

Since Freemasonry is not a religion, no Mason can conscientiously substitute his belief in and loyalty to the Fraternity for the religion of his choice. If he attends no organized religious worship services, that is strictly his own affair; but, if he thinks or says that 'Masonry is his religion,' he misconstrues the character of religion and of Masonry."_​


----------



## Illuminatio (Jul 28, 2014)

Incidentally, the mobile app (iOS) appears to be cutting off the last paragraph of my quote from the booklet for some reason. You may want to hit the option for "web view" to see the rest of it if you're reading this from your phone app.


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


----------



## JJones (Jul 28, 2014)

Religion deals with the immortal soul and it's ultimate destination.  Usually there's a set of rules/guidelines which, depending on how well they're adhered to, will determine how go (or bad) of a time you'll have in the afterlife.

Freemasonry doesn't deal with the afterlife.  We are taught that our faith is important and should not be neglected however in our memory work there is always a clear distinction between our duties to our faith and Freemasonry.  It's clear that the creators of our modern ritual, at least that which is commonly practiced in the USA, saw an obvious distinction between the two and never intended Freemasonry to serve as, or be a replacement for, a man's religion.


----------



## JohnnyFlotsam (Jul 28, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> Bryan, even a quick peek on Wikipedia of all places references good sources on to why freemasonry can be considered a religion. It may not fit your personal definition, but it does fit several interpretations of meeting the definition by several academics. Why is that so hard to accept?



Sorry, but no, it does not qualify as a religion, the unimpeachable font of truth, Wikipedia, notwithstanding.  Any conflation of what Freemasonry offers and religion is the result of a less-than-full understanding of our fraternity and it's purpose, or of the deliberate twisting of the meaning of the the word religion.
While Freemasonry frequently references principles and even scripture familiar to the believers of many religions, it does not make any claim to being involved in their revelation. Other than generic prayer, it offers no rites associated with any religion with which I familiar; no confession, no communion, no rosary, no testimony. 
Let's be real. If you offer something that is, on it's face, something intended to be generic enough to accommodate believers of virtually any faith (more or less), you are offering something quite apart from the thing that defines any one of those faiths. 
Even Buddhism or Taoism, lacking specific deities, claim to offer guidance for the searching soul.  "Walk this path and find Nirvana." In years of thorough study, I have found no such authority claimed in any Masonic lesson or ritual.


----------



## admarcus1 (Jul 28, 2014)

JJones said:


> Religion deals with the immortal soul and it's ultimate destination.  Usually there's a set of rules/guidelines which, depending on how well they're adhered to, will determine how go (or bad) of a time you'll have in the afterlife.



That's not necessarily true. In my religion, while immortality of the soul in some shape or form is part of the theology, it is a small part. While we speak of 'the world to come' at some future time, we do not primarily concern ourselves with the disposition of the soul in the afterlife, but with the way one lives one's life in this one, and not for fear of future punishment or reward, but solely because we have been commanded to live that way.  Fulfilling certain commandments (not referring to just the 10), both small and large, are sometimes said to merit a person "a portion in the world to come" but that is generally understood to signify the importance of the particular commandment.  I attended religious day school through high school with extensive study of Bible, Hebrew, and Talmud. Reward, punishment, and the disposition of the soul after death was not really discussed. We focused on the commandments, what can be learned from them, and how the mundane actions of every day (what you eat, what you wear, what you do and don't do at different times and in different places) can sanctify each moment.  



I think that it is quite difficult to come to a single definition for religion.  Whoever is defining it is necessarily bringing their own perspective and culture to the definition.



Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


----------



## jjjjjggggg (Jul 28, 2014)

Albert Pike declares in _Morals and Dogma_, "Every Masonic lodge is a temple of religion, and its teaching are instructions in religion…this is true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures."

Albert Mackey says in the _Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry_, "The religion of Masonry is non-sectarian. It admits men of every creed within its hospitable bosom. It is not Judaism, though there is nothing to offend the Jew. It is not Christianity, but there is nothing in it repugnant to the faith of a Christian.

Mackey further argues, "Look at its ancient landmarks, its sublime ceremonies, its profound symbols and allegories - all inculcating religious doctrine, commanding religious observances, and teaching religious truth, and who can deny that it is eminently a religious institution...? Masonry then, is indeed a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should then religious Mason defend it."

J.S.M. Ward says in _Freemasonry: its aims and ideals_, "I consider Freemasonry is a significantly organized school of mysticism to be entitled to be called a religion…Freemasonry …taught that each man can by himself, work out his own conception of god and thereby achieve salvation…that thought these paths appear to branch off in various directions, yet they all reach the same ultimate goal, and that to some men, one path is better and to other, another."

Frank C.Higgins maintains: “It is true that Freemasonry is the parent of all religions” (_Ancient Freemasonry_ p. 10)

33rd Degree Freemason Norman Vincent Peale, says: “I consider Masonry to be the purest form of religion on earth” (_Masonic Monitor_, May 1992 pg.17).

Sir John Cockburn addresses the matter in _Freemasonry: What, Whence, Why, Whither_ where he writes, "The question whether Masonry is a religion has been keenly debated. But the contest appears to be merely a war of words. Perhaps the best way of arriving at a conclusion would be first of all to enumerate the points which are common to most religions, and then to enquire in what respect Masonry differs from them. Religion deals with the relationship between man as his Maker, and instils a reverence for the Creator as the First Cause. Religions abound in observances of worship by prayer and praise. They inculcate rules of conduct by holding up a god or hero as a pattern for imitation. All true religions denounce selfishness, extol mutual; service if necessary self-sacrifice. It would be difficult to say in which of these characteristics that Freemasonry is lacking. Surely it abounds in all. Its ceremonies are elaborate, and are unsurpassed in beauty and depth of meaning. They are interspersed with prayer and thanksgiving. In no religion is the reverential attitude of the creature to the Creator more clearly displayed. A bright example of devotion to duty and of self-sacrifice in the path of fidelity. Is ever held before the eyes of the brethren. In what religion are the principles to be found nobler than those on which Masonry rests? Love to the brethren, relief to the distressed, and reverence to the God of Truth. If the title religion be denied to Freemasonry, it may well claim the higher ground of being a federation of religions. It is a form of worship in which all religions can unite without sacrificing a lot of their respective creeds."

George H. Steinmetz (contemporary of Manly P. Hall) writes in his book _Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning_, "The order has at all times been careful to explain that Masonry is not a religion. It has denied the fact over and over again, and insisted that it was a lodge or brotherhood, and in no way did, nor was it intended to, take the place of the church in a man’s life. It is claimed that Masonry is universal, its tenets such that they can be subscribed to by Christian, Jew, Mohammedan and Buddhist alike, and all may meet in brotherhood at its altars. Has Masonry been too careful in its explanation? Too vehement in its denials? Has it so loudly proclaimed it is not a religion that its followers have been misled into thinking it is not religious? Has it been fearful of inadvertently stepping on the figurative toes of some creed, mistaking a creed for religion?"

He continues, "What is religion? The dictionary defines it as: 'The recognition of man’s relation to a divine superhuman power to whom obedience and reverence are due; the outward acts and practices of life by which men indicate their recognition of such relationship; conformity to the teaching of the Bible, effort of man to attain goodness of God'. … In Morals and Dogma Pike offers the following definition: 'FREEMASONRY is the subjugation of the human that is in man by the Divine; the Conquest of the Appetites and Passions by the Moral Sense and the Reason; a continual effort, struggle, and warfare of the Spiritual against the Material and Sensual. That victory, when it has been achieved and secured, and the conqueror may rest upon his shield and wear the well-earned laurels, is the true holy empire'."

He exhorts Masons, "The time has arrived for Masonry to make its position clear, to not only admit, but rather to declare, that it is religious, even though it may well explain it is not a religion in the commonly accepted misuse of the word 'religion'. An attitude to the contrary may have been excusable in the past, as the vast majority of Masons, ignorant of the esoteric teachings, were equally ignorant of the fact that those teachings constitute religion. This has never been true of the Great Masonic Scholars of the past, all of whose writings show their recognition of the religion of Masonry. What is religion? 'Religion is the recognition of man’s relation to a divine superhuman power to whom obedience and reverence are due'. The Masonic Manuel states, 'Freemasonry’s religion, if religion it may be called, is an unfeigned belief in the one living and true God'. The definition of religion continues, 'The outward acts and practices of life by which men indicate their recognition of such relationship'. Paralleling this the Masonic Manuel continues, '[Freemasonry’s] tenets are brotherly love, relief and truth'. How more can one’s 'outward acts and practices' indicate recognition of the Supreme Architect of the Universe and the relationship to Him, than by brotherly love, relief and truth? Recognition of Him of all necessitates the recognition of every fellow man as a brother, demanding brotherly love, which encompasses relief when needed, and above all else, truth."

Dr. Mayer, stated in 1873, "this great art [Freemasonry] may rightly be called a religion. It defines the relation of the individual man to his Creator, to his fellow men, to himself; it develops man into perfection. Freemasonry is a faithful guide through life, with proper instructions to square our actions, and straight measures to keep us in due bounds with mankind. It teaches truth, recommends peace, and directs our attention to the very perishableness of all things. Is it not a religion? Religion! No, my brethren, we may rather call it THE religion! It is entitled to this sublime distinction, through its aim to make man's life happy and godly and his death enviable and peaceful. It is certainly the true religion of mankind, its truth being obvious by its suitableness for all men, its applicableness to all ages, its unchangeableness under all circumstances, its harmonious working in all zones, and the privilege it grants to every man to entertain his own view of his Creator." He continued, "Who is so blind and fanatical as to anathematise Freemasonry on so-called religious grounds? The religion of Freemasonry is within the reach of the Jew and Gentile, the Mohometan and the Hindu, the white and the black, the master and servant, the free and the captive, the rich and the poor - it is the religion of mankind, it is universal. A good Mason loves religion as a pleasant and useful companion in every proper place and every temperate occupation of life; but he hates religions as edifices constructed on prejudicial and superstitious traditions, fanatical propensities and clerical overbearing."

----------

PS- My mention of Wikipedia as a source was meant tongue-in-cheek. This was not meant to be taken seriously, which I thought was obvious in the phrasing.


----------



## admarcus1 (Jul 28, 2014)

Bro. Jamie,

I have no doubt that it will be pointed out that none of these writers speak for Freemasonry, their opinions are their own, etc., etc.
However, you have indeed illustrated that the answer is not an unequivocal "no". It depends both on the individual's understanding of what "religion" is and what Freemasonry is. As evidenced by this thread and others I've followed, there are many different opinions of both.  That makes for a fascinating discussion, but one with no resolution.  That's not a bad thing, and hopefully it lowers the stakes so that there can be less contention in the discussion.

Regarding referencing Wikipedia, I will admit that I did not realize your comment to be tongue in cheek. I have seen Wikipedia cited as an authoritative source so often, that it never surprises me, despite the fact that I was taught in grade school to never use an encyclopedia as a source, but as a place to start to find the sources.


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


----------



## JJones (Jul 29, 2014)

> I think that it is quite difficult to come to a single definition for religion. Whoever is defining it is necessarily bringing their own perspective and culture to the definition.



Very true.  What someone considers religion can be a very different experience from what someone else would consider to be the same thing.

Still, I've never had an religious experiences with Freemasonry.  Has it made me a more religious or spiritual person?  I'd like to think so, it's certainly made me want to do so, at least...but that's been a personal journey between myself and my faith.  The Lodge can not and will not ever be able to replace going to church on Sunday for me...and I think that applies regardless of a man's faith.  That's also why I don't believe Freemasonry is or ever could be considered a religion...because it simply cannot replace or substitute a man's usual religious experiences.

I've never heard a man claim his faith to be "Freemasonry".

Finally, and this is more a personal musing than anything else...but Freemasonry has always struck me more as a system of philosophy.  Can a philosophy come close?  Possibly...I can certainly see how it may seem that way sometimes.  Most religions seem to be philosophic but not all philosophy has to be religious...and I think this is where the different lies.  If Freemasonry is a philosophy it may have some strong religious undertones but I believe those are more a by-product of the era in which it was born than any real attempt to be taken as a religion.

I hope that was coherent enough, it's late.


----------



## jjjjjggggg (Jul 29, 2014)

Very good points. The thing about freemasonry is it's a personal journey. Some take it a lot further than others.


----------



## phulseapple (Jul 29, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> The thing about freemasonry is it's a personal journey.


BINGO!  Each man finds something within Freemasonry.  That something can be similar to, but not identical to the next man because it a personal thing.  Much like Religion, which is a personal relation ship between the man, and his comprehension of the teachings of his Religion.  However, in my own experience, Freemasonry cannot be a religion as it clearly states in our ritual where each Mason should turn for guidance.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Jul 29, 2014)

The most complete and definitive examination of modern Freemasonry that I have found was written by a Harvard law professor 99 years ago.  He examines the influence and direction given to Masonry by four of it's most notable contributors.  Most Masons are aware of two of them, William Preston and Albert Pike.  Less well known, but equally influential I think, are Karl Christian Friedrich Krause and George Oliver. 

The understanding of Freemasonry that we have today comes largely from the influence and direction given by these four men.  If one wants to understand modern Freemasonry I can offer no better explanation than to recommend the book Philosophy of Freemasonry by Roscoe Pound.  It is available for free from dozens of web sites.  The version that I enjoy reading is found here: https://archive.org/stream/cu31924030286466#page/n5/mode/2up


----------



## dfreybur (Jul 29, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> Brother Ernest Borgnine said that freemasonry was enough religion for him, and I concur.



In lodge we teach to agree, but that's not a lesson I'm good at.  I'm obedient to the rules but I disagree with a lot of stuff.  I value Bro Borgnine's work in his profession and our craft but on this point I think he did us a disservice.

One can be a brother without having a religion.  We require a belief in the existence of a supreme being and that's not the same as having a religion.  I know men who believe in the existence of a supreme being who will not accept membership in either organized or disorganized religion.  I had a phase of that myself in my youth.  Perhaps this is what our departed brother meant?  I think so.


----------



## BryanMaloney (Jul 29, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> Albert Pike declares in _Morals and Dogma_, "Every Masonic lodge is a temple of religion, and its teaching are instructions in religion…this is true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures."



I see, so then, Pike is an infallible guide to Freemasonry and every word he says must be taken as literal truth.

Why do you have this crusade to turn Freemasonry into some kind of church?



> Albert Mackey says in the _Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry_, "The religion of Masonry is non-sectarian. It admits men of every creed within its hospitable bosom. It is not Judaism, though there is nothing to offend the Jew. It is not Christianity, but there is nothing in it repugnant to the faith of a Christian.



This does not say "Freemasonry is a religion." It is using "religion of Freemasonry" to refer to those traits that distinguish it as a non-sectarian organization. The "religion of the US government" is entirely non-sectarian as well, since it has no religion. Do you contend that the US government is a religion.



> Mackey further argues, "Look at its ancient landmarks, its sublime ceremonies, its profound symbols and allegories - all inculcating religious doctrine, commanding religious observances, and teaching religious truth, and who can deny that it is eminently a religious institution...? Masonry then, is indeed a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should then religious Mason defend it."



I see, so then, Mackey is an infallible guide to Freemasonry and every word he says must be taken as literal truth.

Why do you have this crusade to turn Freemasonry into some kind of church?

Maybe you should just openly demand that all Christians, Jews, and Muslims be EXPELLED from Freemasonry, since that's what you really want to happen.

I have been flatly told at my Lodge that Freemasonry is not a religion. FLATLY TOLD THAT! Are you telling me that former Grand Lodge officials are liars?

It is obvious that you are desperate to get everyone to "admit" that Freemasonry is a religion. Why is that? What deep-seated need in your life is not being met so that you have to pretend that Freemasonry is a religion (and that it Christians shouldn't be allowed in Freemasonry)? What is the real issue you refuse to face?


----------



## BryanMaloney (Jul 29, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> Very good points. The thing about freemasonry is it's a personal journey. Some take it a lot further than others.



Ah, so those who do not consider Freemasonry to be a religion just aren't as deep and true Freemasons as those who do.


----------



## admarcus1 (Jul 29, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> "I see, so then, Pike is an infallible guide to Freemasonry and every word he says must be taken as literal truth."
> 
> "Why do you have this crusade to turn Freemasonry into some kind of church?"
> 
> ...



I really didn't read Bro. Jamie's post that way.  He did clearly challenge the statement that Freemasonry is not a religion, which I have been taught is absolutely true.  He also showed by example, that there are those, such as Pike and Mackey, who described it as such (according to their understanding of what that means).  That certainly does not prove that Freemasonry is a religion (I still hold that it is not), but it does demonstrate that different people may have different opinions of the question, depending on their perspective.

I certainly don't think that he was suggesting that Christians, Jews, and Muslims be expelled - I certainly hope not. Even if you expelled just the Christians, we would have a hard time getting enough guys to open the lodge.  I also don't think that he is calling anyone a liar.  My Grand Lodge has also stated the position clearly that Freemasonry is not a religion.  The fact that someone may disagree with that doesn't make it a Grand Lodge of liars, but one that does not share the same opinion.  A difference of opinion doesn't mean that one person believes the other to be lying.  I am a statistician who works with epidemiologists.  Many of them are of the opinion that p-values are useless statistics that do more to obscure the nature of the data than enlighten, and that confidence intervals should always be used in their place.  I believe that p-values can be extremely useful tools in a defined set of circumstances with clearly articulated assumptions.  We strongly disagree with each other on a very basic tool that we use in our work together.  No one is saying that the other is lying, and no one is trying to get the other kicked off the research team.  We have different perspectives on the same issue, and each perspective can find ample support among some very respected voices in the literature.  None of us would claim, however, that any of those voices are infallible.  Well, except maybe for Ken Rothman.  Many epidemiologists consider him infallible.  He is certainly influential.  He may be the Mackey of epidemiology.


----------



## jjjjjggggg (Jul 29, 2014)

Admarcus,

Thank you... You caught what was saying. I have Bryan on ignore so I wasn't aware of his post. I don't think Christians or anyone else should be expelled, but I already told him that, though he's convinced I have some secret agenda. 

I wanted to point out that whether freemasonry can be called a religion has already been a long debate. And certainly anyone can make it a religion unto themselves. It isn't my religion, but I have no need for it to be either/or.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Jul 29, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> Frank C.Higgins maintains: “It is true that Freemasonry is the parent of all religions” (_Ancient Freemasonry_ p. 10)


BINGO! 
What is more common in science than the desire to know or discover the unknown about the universe? 
What is more common in religion than the desire to know or discover the unknown about mans relationship to the universe?
Geometry teaches us that by studying the universe we can discover our relationship to the universe.
Geometry is a science.  Freemasonry is a science.  The study of science can lead one to the knowledge of God.


jamie.guinn said:


> 33rd Degree Freemason Norman Vincent Peale, says: “I consider Masonry to be the purest form of religion on earth” (_Masonic Monitor_, May 1992 pg.17).


----------



## dfreybur (Jul 29, 2014)

admarcus1 said:


> I really didn't read Bro. Jamie's post that way.



In another thread Bro Jamie mentioned that he had passed through a phase of being a fundamentalist in one of the sects that condemns Masonry.  I figure that memory has left him with something that might be called "mental indigestion" on the topic and he's trying to work his way through the topic.  I see it as more similar to him treating this forum in part like group therapy than like him taking the side of antis for the sake of argument.

My normal approach to antis is to point out how they are nuts, pray for their mental healing and to recommend avoiding contact to avoid getting cooties from them.  Seeing Bro Jamie as a cured former nut, probably not all that helpful to him in his current situation.

Maybe it's something like PSTD to get over, folks treat that by telling their story again and again until it gets old and toothless to them as the story teller.  Like having a tire with a bump and fixing it by wearing out the bump on a long road trip.


----------



## jjjjjggggg (Jul 29, 2014)

Dfreybur,

Lol, actually a pretty good assessment. In my neck of the woods fundamentalism and biblical literalism is pretty typical... there is a reason they call us the buckle of the Bible Belt.

I guess this is sort of a little therapy for me, though I hate for it to be such. And I have to admit its hard to see Christianity outside of the way I lived it for 12 years. So when I presented the original question it was more or less a way for me to see how my Christian brothers make the leap and help broaden my own perspective. 

I never would have thought I would end up being accused as having a secret agenda of getting all Christians expelled from masonry in some grand conspiracy. Because getting on a message board totally makes sense to make that happen. Or I could have just got in contact with my satan worshipping lizard alien illuminati friends instead.


----------



## dfreybur (Jul 29, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> Or I could have just got in contact with my satan worshipping lizard alien illuminati friends instead.



In Star Trek fandom we call those Gorn.  I've never seen a Gorn at lodge.  The rumor mill says they are all atheists and that's why.  Contact them all you like, it looks like as atheists they are irrelevant to Masonry.  ;^)


----------



## BryanMaloney (Jul 30, 2014)

Trying to prove that Christianity is incompatible with Freemasonry and refusing to take the word of Brothers, given in good faith, that it is compatible with Freemasonry, brothers who are both Freemasons and Christians is good reason to conclude that someone does not want Christians to be Freemasons.


----------



## jjjjjggggg (Jul 30, 2014)

Saw this blog post on Freemason Information. The take away for me and a good point that though freemasonry could be classified as a "religion" it CANNOT be classified as a "faith"... a subtle distinction but very important.

Freemasonry: the religion of not being a religion
http://freemasoninformation.com/2014/07/freemasonry-the-religion-of-not-being-a-religion/


----------



## JohnnyFlotsam (Jul 30, 2014)

Sigh...
"Is <insert religion here> compatible with Freemasonry?" is a question that can not be answered. We don't (or shouldn't) make such judgements. We ask one question about belief of our candidates and that doesn't include any specifics about the form or practice of that belief. There is no "proof" to be had. 

The question, "Is Freemasonry compatible with <insert religion here>?" is one that we (the institutional "we") likewise can not answer. "We" are not an authority on any given religion, much less on the subtle and highly personal interpretations any given believer may have. For the Brother who is struggling with some such conflict, the best we can do is act as a sounding board for his thinking, and as a "fact checker" for the all-too-common cases where some ill-informed relative, friend, or clergy is twisting the facts about Freemasonry.  But when it comes right down to it, the question of how one must comport one's self with regard to the doctrine of his chosen religion is a matter of faith. We can not, should not, be making that for any of our Brothers.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Jul 30, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> The take away for me and a good point that though freemasonry could be classified as a "religion" it CANNOT be classified as a "faith"... a subtle distinction but very important.


I find that most people, Freemasons included, can do a much better job of defining religion than they can of defining Freemasonry. The definition of Freemasonry that I would give you today is drastically different than the one I would have given you even five years ago.


----------



## coachn (Jul 30, 2014)

There are people who practice their religions philosophically and those who practice their philosophies religiously. 
There are men within the ranks of the Freemasonic Organization who are no exception to these practices in any way. 
Because of whom they are, each of them will take Freemasonry as he chooses to and each of them will see it as he takes it. 

* Is Freemasonry A Religion? * _Who cares?  Why is it SO important to even ask this question? What possibly important meaning do you assign to your involvement in the order by answering this for yourself?  Does the answer provide what you want and need from your involvement or does Freemasonry do that regardless of your response?  Even if you chose to respond, why would you truly care what other people think if it is viewed one way or another by you?_


----------



## BryanMaloney (Jul 31, 2014)

Two groups wish to classify Freemasonry as a religion: Those who wish to destroy Freemasonry and those who have no religion of their own and try to make Freemasonry their substitute.


----------



## jjjjjggggg (Aug 1, 2014)

Another post from Freemason Information which is spot on.

http://freemasoninformation.com/201...medium=rss&utm_campaign=freemasonrys-religion


----------



## Warrior1256 (Aug 5, 2014)

Masonry most definately has a religious theme but it is not a religion unto itself. Just my opinion.


----------



## dfreybur (Aug 5, 2014)

There exist religions that expect exclusivity.  Any member of one of them is likely to be insistent that Masonry is not a religion.  The jurisdictions that are oldest and/or largest exist in regions where such religions are in the majority.  Whence our rhetoric that we aren't a religion.  A strict Christian or Muslim might care deeply about the definitions.

There exist religions that don't care if their practitioners are exclusive.  Any member of one or more of then unlikely to care if Masonry is described as a religion.  We have jurisdictions in regions where such religions are in the majority.  We have minority members of these faiths in most jurisdictions.  In Japan it's not unusual for a person to practice more than one of Shinto, Buddhism and/or Taoism as they don't require exclusivity.  A Japanese brother is unlikely to care if Masonry gets described as a religion.

This situation tells us that the issue is really a matter of definitions and boundaries.  Before taking our obligations we are told that they do not interfere with our duty to God.  That statement gives critically important context about the nature of our obligations and about the nature of Masonry.  Masonry stands aside on issues of exclusivity.  Masonry stands for unity on issues of unity.  The boundary is up to the individual brother but the choice must be in the context of the admonition we are given and agree to before taking each obligation.

Have you noticed that Antis ignore the admonition given to us before each obligation?  There is an important reason for this.  It's the context that the admonition gives those of us who have decided to take our obligations.

Whether Masonry is a religion or not ultimately comes down to a semantics game played about definitions and the motivations behind why such definitions matter.  Masonry is not in conflict with any faith that requires an exclusive commitment and is therefore not a religion to the members of any such faith.  Masonry is in harmony with any faith that does not care about exclusive commitment and it therefore does not matter if Masonry is a religion to the members of any such faiths.

If you care, Masonry is not.  Unless you're an Anti careful to ignore the context of the admonition ...

I've left this post iconified on my screen for a while working on the wording.  Still too stilted and verbose but I don't think I'll be able to do better without a ton of thought and time.


----------



## cemab4y (Aug 5, 2014)

The Supreme Court of the state of Nebraska ruled that Freemasonry is NOT a religion. The case was Lancaster County (Neb) v. Scottish Rite Building (1922).


----------



## jjjjjggggg (Aug 5, 2014)

Dfreybur,

Doesn't seems tilted to me... in fact, one of the most thoughtful and balanced posts I've read on the subject. Well done!


----------



## BryanMaloney (Aug 6, 2014)

If one wishes to stretch "definitions" enough, then everything is a religion. 

If everything is a religion, then nothing is a religion.


----------



## coachn (Aug 6, 2014)

Thank God we don't have to deal with Extremists WITHIN the Fraternity!  (snicker)


----------



## BryanMaloney (Aug 6, 2014)

You mean, like Masons who argue that Christians shouldn't be Freemasons or that Freemasonry is a religion?


----------



## coachn (Aug 6, 2014)

Nah!  We couldn't POSSIBLY have such narrow minded extremists within our Ranks.  You must be referring to some other organization.


----------



## Brother_Steve (Aug 7, 2014)

Freemasonry is a religion as much as football is a religion to the fanatic.

You get out of it what you put into it. Some may consider Masonry to be their "religion" but not for the reasons the word actually defines in the sense of Deity.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Aug 14, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> Two groups wish to classify Freemasonry as a religion: Those who wish to destroy Freemasonry and those who have no religion of their own and try to make Freemasonry their substitute.


I agree!


----------



## Brother JC (Aug 14, 2014)

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."


----------



## coachn (Aug 14, 2014)

trysquare said:


> "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."


James 1:27


----------



## BryanMaloney (Aug 15, 2014)

Badly taken out of context:

"Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God. Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.

If any one thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man’s religion is vain. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world."

What is "the word"? In this case, it would be the Holy Gospel of Christ, not just any old set of pious wordage. The entire Epistle of James is not about "just do good and you'll be fine". The Epistle of James is about "believing only" will not grant salvation. It is through and through a thoroughly Christian document. Quoting a single verse out of context is of no value at all.

*Footnotes:*


----------



## coachn (Aug 15, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> ... Quoting a single verse out of context is of no value at all.


(cough) No value at all?  It got you to reply with some good Light.  There's value in that?


----------

