# racism question



## freemasonpha

Since I joined the Lodge I've been asked by caucasian Masons if I, as a caucasion Prince Hall Mason, have ever experienced racism. 

I've been questioned this question in person and randomly asked over fb when I post in fb groups and people see I'm white. The answer is no. Not at all. No racism whatsoever. I've been welcomed with open arms and feel right at home with my Brothers. 

Anyone experience racism in a Prince Hall Lodge?


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## David612

Sorry but I don’t have a lot to really contribute but it amazes me the amount of racial tension that appears to persevere in American culture (im assuming you are US based?) although we have our issues here in Australia as well it’s quite different to the history you have.
Thankfully we have groups that put race, religion, creed, sexual preference etc aside and hopefully on a macro level that is improving relations at least a little.


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## freemasonpha

David612 said:


> Sorry but I don’t have a lot to really contribute but it amazes me the amount of racial tension that appears to persevere in American culture (im assuming you are US based?) although we have our issues here in Australia as well it’s quite different to the history you have.
> Thankfully we have groups that put race, religion, creed, sexual preference etc aside and hopefully on a macro level that is improving relations at least a little.



I'm Canadian. The questions have come from Brother in the US though...


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## CLewey44

Well, to my knowledge, I've never had any sort of racial issues from either PHA or non-PHA, black, white, Asian, Hispanic or whoever.  I see way more interracial bickering than anything.


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## David612

freemasonpha said:


> I'm Canadian. The questions have come from Brother in the US though...


Ahh that makes sense, as an outsider looking in it just strikes me as such an alien idea to have this implied distance between people simply because of perceived cultural heritage, We in Australia are not without tragedy in our history and we still struggle with atrocities committed but the history of the black man in America is something on to itself.
I remember when I visited D.C as a young boy of 11being on the bus doing usual tourist things and the feeling of tension being the only white family around, not that anything was said just an air of discomfort as though we did not belong, until we opened our mouths and had our Aussie accent give us away as not being locals, from then anyone on that bus would have helped us with directions as we where not a part of that world... sorry for the random story it just stuck with me..


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## Ripcord22A

freemasonpha said:


> Since I joined the Lodge I've been asked by caucasian Masons if I, as a caucasion Prince Hall Mason, have ever experienced racism.
> 
> I've been questioned this question in person and randomly asked over fb when I post in fb groups and people see I'm white. The answer is no. Not at all. No racism whatsoever. I've been welcomed with open arms and feel right at home with my Brothers.
> 
> Anyone experience racism in a Prince Hall Lodge?


There was a cancer in my AASR valley a cpl years ago, took the Grand Commander to deal with it, that was as bigoted as they come.  He was the Boss and was driving people away.  Wanted to sell out building and move the valley about an hr south to a bigger city.  He was over heard saying "ain't no ni&&3r gonna cook in my kitchen" prior to telling an Black Brother that his services weren't needed in the kitchen during a reunion.

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## Bloke

Ripcord22A said:


> There was a cancer in my AASR valley a cpl years ago, took the Grand Commander to deal with it, that was as bigoted as they come.  He was the Boss and was driving people away.  Wanted to sell out building and move the valley about an hr south to a bigger city.  He was over heard saying "ain't no ni&&3r gonna cook in my kitchen" prior to telling an Black Brother that his services weren't needed in the kitchen during a reunion.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


I'd be tempted to kill that weed at the root by bringing a charge in his Craft Lodge.


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## Ripcord22A

They tried. ....

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## David612

Ripcord22A said:


> They tried. ....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


And it went well by the sounds


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## Glen Cook

Bloke said:


> I'd be tempted to kill that weed at the root by bringing a charge in his Craft Lodge.


I don’t disagree with the underlying motivations in bringing charges.  The problem is when the craft lodge doesn’t care. Additionally, Masonic trials can lead to a dead lodge.  Sometimes, extrajudicial actions can more easily deal with these issues.


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## Ripcord22A

David612 said:


> And it went well by the sounds


Well he was forced to a different Valley and removed from his leadership position in the Orient 

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## David612

Ripcord22A said:


> Well he was forced to a different Valley and removed from his leadership position in the Orient
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


Wow, isn’t it amazing that some people just have such a huge blind spot for their own shortcomings


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## Bloke

David612 said:


> Wow, isn’t it amazing that some people just have such a huge blind spot for their own shortcomings


Best to assume we all have that failing. I am sure I do. 

***tries to chip away at ashlar***


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## David612

Bloke said:


> Best to assume we all have that failing. I am sure I do.
> 
> ***tries to chip away at ashlar***


Yeah, I take your point and belive wholeheartedly that some have a easier road toward the perfect ashlar than others.
Perhaps my intolerance for bigotry is my blind spot (not that I’m saying you tolerate such things, rather I shut down to the thoughts and opinions of people who carry that mentality) however I would argue that people who would would behave that way fail to meet the criteria for acceptance in freemasonry as it should be.


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## Warrior1256

Ripcord22A said:


> There was a cancer in my AASR valley a cpl years ago, took the Grand Commander to deal with it, that was as bigoted as they come. He was the Boss and was driving people away. Wanted to sell out building and move the valley about an hr south to a bigger city. He was over heard saying "ain't no ni&&3r gonna cook in my kitchen" prior to telling an Black Brother that his services weren't needed in the kitchen during a reunion.


WOW!!! So this guy was not even the least bit subtle about it! 


Ripcord22A said:


> Well he was forced to a different Valley and removed from his leadership position in the Orient


If he couldn't be gotten rid of completely then this is good. Good riddance!


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## Ripcord22A

Warrior1256 said:


> WOW!!! So this guy was not even the least bit subtle about it!
> 
> If he couldn't be gotten rid of completely then this is good. Good riddance!


Yes and ever since he and his crew have been gone the valley is much happier. 

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## LK600

Ripcord22A said:


> There was a cancer in my AASR valley a cpl years ago, took the Grand Commander to deal with it, that was as bigoted as they come.  He was the Boss and was driving people away.  Wanted to sell out building and move the valley about an hr south to a bigger city.  He was over heard saying "ain't no ni&&3r gonna cook in my kitchen" prior to telling an Black Brother that his services weren't needed in the kitchen during a reunion.



So many issues in this small word and people have to make skin tone one of them.  I don't understand it, I'll never understand it, and I won't tolerate it around me.


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## Warrior1256

LK600 said:


> So many issues in this small word and people have to make skin tone one of them.


It is very silly.


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## AndreAshlar

I've never witnessed it in a Prince Hall Lodge

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## David612

AndreAshlar said:


> I've never witnessed it in a Prince Hall Lodge
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using My Freemasonry mobile
> app




It’s not a standard v Prince hall issue as I’ve never seen it in an Aussie blue lodge and I don’t think wh have Prince Hall lodges, it’s individual people within a lodge and they can show up anywhere.


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## AndreAshlar

True indeed. Similar to racism in society at large.

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## David612

I’d love it if we did have personal access to the Prince Hall history here in Australia though..
Looking at the bottom of the page with similar threads it appears racism is a persistent issue for many lodges in the US, I personally think if this is witnessed it should be dealt with seriously, not only is it morally reprehensible but it is also illegal.
There is no place in my understanding of freemasonry for people than that.


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## Ripcord22A

David612 said:


> but it is also illegal.
> .


Racism is illegal is Australia?  While I find racism stupid I don't believe it should be illegal.  As Americans we have the bill of rights and the 1st amendment protects all speech against actions from the government.  I can say what ever I want and the government can't do anything.  Now that doesn't stop someone from suing me if I slander them .  But Someone could stand on a street corner and yell " I hate black people!  All black people are Ns ". And nothing could be done by the government.  And as an American while I disagree with the sentiment I would defend their right to say it


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## AndreAshlar

Racism is illegal in freemasonry

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## David612

Ripcord22A said:


> Racism is illegal is Australia?  While I find racism stupid I don't believe it should be illegal.  As Americans we have the bill of rights and the 1st amendment protects all speech against actions from the government.  I can say what ever I want and the government can't do anything.  Now that doesn't stop someone from suing me if I slander them .  But Someone could stand on a street corner and yell " I hate black people!  All black people are Ns ". And nothing could be done by the government.  And as an American while I disagree with the sentiment I would defend their right to say it


I was referring to masonically illegal but I do also believe it is illegal in aus but I’m not versed on Aussie discrimination law.


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## Bloke

David612 said:


> It’s not a standard v Prince hall issue as I’ve never seen it in an Aussie blue lodge and I don’t think wh have Prince Hall lodges, it’s individual people within a lodge and they can show up anywhere.


When Australian Freemasons find out about Prince Hall for the first time, they generally just find it weird and a foreign concept in our experience of Freemasonry, but you have to understand it is a product of time and place - and long may Prince Hall proposer and the prejudice which led to it die.

Not sure racism is illegal in Australia, but we do have strong racial vilification and anti-discrimination laws.

We admit "others" in Australian Freemasonry. I find it hard to find Australian Aboriginals in the Craft of the 1800;s - but the search is hard by many of them using anglicized  names - Sir Douglas Nicholls KCVO, OBE (1906-1988) is certainly the highest profile Australian Indigenous person I am aware of who became a Freemason. What is interesting is how we admitted Chinese into the Craft in the 1800's in the time of the White Australia Policy and anti-Chinese laws. I will do some more work on these some day, but there is a short list here of some well know Chinese Freemasons in Australia http://www.lodgedevotion.net/devotionnews/famous-australian-freemasons/large-list-of-notable-and-famous-australian-freemasons#_Toc470959844 but the url gets changed when the page is updated, it should always be here though  http://www.lodgedevotion.net/devoti...t-of-notable-and-famous-australian-freemasons


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## Warrior1256

David612 said:


> it’s individual people within a lodge and they can show up anywhere.


Absolutely true!


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## Warrior1256

Ripcord22A said:


> As Americans we have the bill of rights and the 1st amendment protects all speech against actions from the government. I can say what ever I want and the government can't do anything.





Ripcord22A said:


> And as an American while I disagree with the sentiment I would defend their right to say it


I absolutely agree. As disreputable and abhorrent as some speech can be allowing the government to ban any type of speech would be a slippery slope indeed! However, as Brother Ripcord says, we can confront hateful, divisive speech with its opposite.


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## David612

Bloke said:


> When Australian Freemasons find out about Prince Hall for the first time, they generally just find it weird and a foreign concept in our experience of Freemasonry, but you have to understand it is a product of time and place - and long may Prince Hall proposer and the prejudice which led to it die.
> 
> Not sure racism is illegal in Australia, but we do have strong racial vilification and anti-discrimination laws.
> 
> We admit "others" in Australian Freemasonry. I find it hard to find Australian Aboriginals in the Craft of the 1800;s - but the search is hard by many of them using anglicized  names - Sir Douglas Nicholls KCVO, OBE (1906-1988) is certainly the highest profile Australian Indigenous person I am aware of who became a Freemason. What is interesting is how we admitted Chinese into the Craft in the 1800's in the time of the White Australia Policy and anti-Chinese laws. I will do some more work on these some day, but there is a short list here of some well know Chinese Freemasons in Australia http://www.lodgedevotion.net/devotionnews/famous-australian-freemasons/large-list-of-notable-and-famous-australian-freemasons#_Toc470959844 but the url gets changed when the page is updated, it should always be here though  http://www.lodgedevotion.net/devoti...t-of-notable-and-famous-australian-freemasons


As far as racism goes here in sure they would find something to charge you with, remember that while anti-social behaviour malarkey?


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## CLewey44

Bloke said:


> When Australian Freemasons find out about Prince Hall for the first time, they generally just find it weird and a foreign concept in our experience of Freemasonry, but you have to understand it is a product of time and place - and long may Prince Hall proposer and the prejudice which led to it die.



This is how I feel about it. I think it is somewhere between segregation and 'feeling comfortable'. It's a hold over from a bad time in the U.S. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's needless at this point and creates a *division *among Brethren that should not be there anymore.  It should be 'weird and forgein' to us in the 21st centurty, even in the U.S. I'm not saying do away with PHA but maybe make it an appendant body of sorts or include it in some form or fashion in all BLs. Brothers sitting in one lodge or another based PRIMARILY on their skin color is a needless practice that is a black-eye on the fraternity that exists still today.


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## AndreAshlar

You can't throw away the centuries old tradition that had been established as a result of the hate of past times. Two organizations with a common cause doesn't foster division. Antiquated mindsets do. 

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## David612

AndreAshlar said:


> You can't throw away the centuries old tradition that had been established as a result of the hate of past times. Two organizations with a common cause doesn't foster division. Antiquated mindsets do.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using My Freemasonry mobile app



It would be a shame to loose that history, I’d love to visit a PHA lodge and will do befor I die.


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## CLewey44

I wouldn't throw it away either. I would keep it but unite us under one GL per state. I would keep the recognition of Bro Hall in all lodges. I would say too, create an appendant body that exalts him as SRIA/SRICF does Rosenkreutz.


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## Ripcord22A

CLewey44 said:


> I wouldn't throw it away either. I would keep it but unite us under one GL per state. I would keep the recognition of Bro Hall in all lodges. I would say too, create an appendant body that exalts him as SRIA/SRICF does Rosenkreutz.



??


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## CLewey44

Maybe exalt is a strong word but I just don't want anyone to think I would want the tradition of PHA to go away but I'd like to see all of us under one umbrella. One way of doing that would be having a concordant/appendant body that centers around Bro. Hall. Another would be making sure his pic is in Blue Lodges or on the charters, something. It's a touchy subject and I understand that. 

We are quick to say my comments are ridiculous, maybe wrong or in some way disrespectful or even racist but its not. However if you asked Brothers from other countries "Do you think it's a good idea to have one form of Masonry PRIMARILY for white men and one PRIMARILY for black men?" The answer would be an overwhelming 'no' I'm sure. It goes against our 'accepting' side and it'd be a nearly impossible feat to achieve but it's my opinion. There is something wrong when you look at pictures of 'brothers' and every guy in the photo is white or every guy in a pic is black. There is something fundamentally wrong with that but we won't ever address it so, it is what it is.


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## Ripcord22A

CLewey44 said:


> Maybe exalt is a strong word but I just don't want anyone to think I would want the tradition of PHA to go away but I'd like to see all of us under one umbrella. One way of doing that would be having a concordant/appendant body that centers around Bro. Hall. Another would be making sure his pic is in Blue Lodges or on the charters, something. It's a touchy subject and I understand that.
> 
> We are quick to say my comments are ridiculous, maybe wrong or in some way disrespectful or even racist but its not. However if you asked Brothers from other countries "Do you think it's a good idea to have one form of Masonry PRIMARILY for white men and one PRIMARILY for black men?" The answer would be an overwhelming 'no' I'm sure. It goes against our 'accepting' side and it'd be a nearly impossible feat to achieve but it's my opinion. There is something wrong when you look at pictures of 'brothers' and every guy in the photo is white or every guy in a pic is black. There is something fundamentally wrong with that but we won't ever address it so, it is what it is.



I don't like the appendant body idea....I feel like that would disrespect PHA masons


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## AndreAshlar

My sentiments exactly

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## Glen Cook

CLewey44 said:


> I wouldn't throw it away either. I would keep it but unite us under one GL per state. I would keep the recognition of Bro Hall in all lodges. I would say too, create an appendant body that exalts him as SRIA/SRICF does Rosenkreutz.


Would that not make African Americans again in the minority in one of the few places they are not: Prince Hall Masonry?  

Any number of countries have multiple grand lodges. In Utah, we have a great relationship with PHA Col. PHA uses Utah GL lodge rooms. We’ve done a joint Shrine installation. The PHA AASR deputy will be the speaker at our AASR Reunion banquet this month. It can work.


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## CLewey44

And again this is looking at race and things like that. It's just something that has been held over too long in my opinion. How about we all just become Prince Hall then? That'd be fine by me if we could get rid of this sort of passive-aggressive segregation we have going. We can talk about this and that all day but at the end of the day it is a division in this fraternity and I'll never think differently I'm sorry. And it's a negative thing to me. I'm having a progressive thought process on this while everyone else seems to be comfortable with division. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Is it bad that I want to see more black men and diversity in my Lodge?


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## AndreAshlar

CLewey44 said:


> Maybe exalt is a strong word but I just don't want anyone to think I would want the tradition of PHA to go away but I'd like to see all of us under one umbrella. One way of doing that would be having a concordant/appendant body that centers around Bro. Hall. Another would be making sure his pic is in Blue Lodges or on the charters, something. It's a touchy subject and I understand that.
> 
> We are quick to say my comments are ridiculous, maybe wrong or in some way disrespectful or even racist but its not. However if you asked Brothers from other countries "Do you think it's a good idea to have one form of Masonry PRIMARILY for white men and one PRIMARILY for black men?" The answer would be an overwhelming 'no' I'm sure. It goes against our 'accepting' side and it'd be a nearly impossible feat to achieve but it's my opinion. There is something wrong when you look at pictures of 'brothers' and every guy in the photo is white or every guy in a pic is black. There is something fundamentally wrong with that but we won't ever address it so, it is what it is.


Freemasonry is a microcosm of the communities in which the lodges are housed.  It makes sense that they reflect the demographic of those communities. That's not a bad thing.  Again, it's more about the mentalities of men. Institutionalized racism. In theory, recognition = respect.  In masonry, that respect among men should usurp the grip of the racism that is at the core of the history of state GL's... The same racism that created the environment for the birth of African Lodge #459. As bigoted mindsets become less common throughout the craft,  we'll progress towards a true brotherhood of men on the level under the fatherhood of God.  Consider that It's never been the policy of PHA masonry to exclude men based on race. No state GL can say the same. How would that reality, in your view,  play into a one state GL system?

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## Brother JC

CLewey44 said:


> Is it bad that I want to see more black men and diversity in my Lodge?


No, it’s not bad, but you don’t need to wipe out or absorb another grand lodge to make it happen. My NM lodge has members from all over the racial and cultural spectrum, and they have a excellent relationship with another GL within the jurisdiction. No labels need be applied.


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## CLewey44

My point is impossible to convey here...lets just never change this divide.  ...I fold....


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## AndreAshlar

CLewey44 said:


> My point is impossible to convey here...lets just never change this divide.  ...I fold....


I believe your point is being conveyed. I just don't agree with it.

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## SteveH

I have never been to a Prince Hall lodge, so I can't speak on that, but being a mason in Tennessee I can tell you that racism is alive in our state.  I have been to several lodges in my area and I have yet to see a black man.  Damn shame in my opinion, but it is true.  We don't say it openly, but it can't be an accident that all our lodges in my part of the state are all white.


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## MarkR

SteveH said:


> I have never been to a Prince Hall lodge, so I can't speak on that, but being a mason in Tennessee I can tell you that racism is alive in our state.  I have been to several lodges in my area and I have yet to see a black man.  Damn shame in my opinion, but it is true.  We don't say it openly, but it can't be an accident that all our lodges in my part of the state are all white.


Have any black men petitioned?


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## David612

Are there any Prince Hall lodges in the area?
Making an effort to build a relationship and establishing a new culture isn’t going to happen by itself


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## Warrior1256

David612 said:


> Are there any Prince Hall lodges in the area?
> Making an effort to build a relationship and establishing a new culture isn’t going to happen by itself


Quite right.


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## Dontrell Stroman

As a TN PHA mason, I can say yes blacks have petitioned and were black balled or "strongly" urged to find a PHA lodge. I know this because some of these gentleman are now brothers of mine.


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## acjohnson53

I highly agree, in my time in masonry PHA is well diverse and welcome all men regardless of their race. As long as he can ride that goat for 8 seconds. (LOL) Matter of fact the United Supreme Counsel is in Memphis, TN. I know a few Brothers in the Nashville(Cashville) area. There is strength in Numbers. the more Lodges except Men for who they are the longer Freemasonry will live.


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## Warrior1256

acjohnson53 said:


> There is strength in Numbers. the more Lodges except Men for who they are the longer Freemasonry will live.


Agreed!


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## Dontrell Stroman

We always discuss blacks not being allowed in white lodges for obvious reasons, but I want to give kudos to the white brethren that leave or help make a change in their bigoted Lodge or Grand Lodge. These brother's dont get enough credit.


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## Warrior1256

Travelling Man91 said:


> We always discuss blacks not being allowed in white lodges for obvious reasons, but I want to give kudos to the white brethren that leave or help make a change in their bigoted Lodge or Grand Lodge. These brother's dont get enough credit.


Two years ago the GL of Kentucky and the PHGL of Kentucky extended visitation privileges to each other. It was a great day for Kentucky Freemasonry!


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## David612

I’m in the dark about this as I’m not in the US, Prince Hall lodges are seen as regular, and have been for quite some time, yes?


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## LK600

David612 said:


> I’m in the dark about this as I’m not in the US, Prince Hall lodges are seen as regular, and have been for quite some time, yes?


In most jurisdictions, yes, but not all in both directions (both sides of the Atlantic)

on edit...  To be clear, I have very strong feelings in favor of recognition.


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## David612

LK600 said:


> In most jurisdictions, yes, but not all in both directions (both sides of the Atlantic)
> 
> on edit...  To be clear, I have very strong feelings in favor of recognition.


It’s clearly my own personal biases but it just strikes me as ridiculous that this is even a discussion, if there isn’t an active effort to unify recognition there definitely should be, but again as I haven’t grown up in the culture it’s clearly not something I grasp fully


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## Warrior1256

LK600 said:


> To be clear, I have very strong feelings in favor of recognition.


Same here!


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## Bloke

David612 said:


> It’s clearly my own personal biases but it just strikes me as ridiculous that this is even a discussion, if there isn’t an active effort to unify recognition there definitely should be, but again as I haven’t grown up in the culture it’s clearly not something I grasp fully


As Australians, we just don't get this Prince Hall Freemasonry thing at first.  We also don't get the scale of irregularity in the USA (and other places). Prince Hall GLs will be recognised by your GL David.


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## AndreAshlar

Bloke said:


> As Australians, we just don't get this Prince Hall Freemasonry thing at first.  We also don't get the scale of irregularity in the USA (and other places). Prince Hall GLs will be recognised by your GL David.


If you understand the history of slavery and racism in the U.S. as well as the resolve of the victims of that oppression,  it's easy to grasp how the environment was fertile ground for the birth of Prince Hall Freemasonry. 

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## David612

AndreAshlar said:


> If you understand the history of slavery and racism in the U.S. as well as the resolve of the victims of that oppression,  it's easy to grasp how the environment was fertile ground for the birth of Prince Hall Freemasonry.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using My Freemasonry mobile app


The thing is it’s one thing to theoretically understand the history of slavery but an entirely different thing to have lived in country to have it in living memory and to have it as part of day to day life.


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## Bloke

AndreAshlar said:


> If you understand the history of slavery and racism in the U.S. as well as the resolve of the victims of that oppression,  it's easy to grasp how the environment was fertile ground for the birth of Prince Hall Freemasonry.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using My Freemasonry mobile app



Indeed. But it was still a surprise to discover Freemasonry did not stand aside from that, but as a institution of society, it makes sense that the Freemasons who comprised those lodges were racist -but even typing that feels wrong. I always point out, that according to the tradition history, the only reason Prince Hall Freemasonry was born was because a group of White Irish Freemasons initiated Prince Hall and his companions because they were not racist like local American Freemasons were,. or if those Irish Freemasons were racist, the made their passions and prejudices coincide with the just line of their conduct.


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## AndreAshlar

Bloke said:


> Indeed. But it was still a surprise to discover Freemasonry did not stand aside from that, but as a institution of society, it makes sense that the Freemasons who comprised those lodges were racist -but even typing that feels wrong. I always point out, that according to the tradition history, the only reason Prince Hall Freemasonry was born was because a group of White Irish Freemasons initiated Prince Hall and his companions because they were not racist like local American Freemasons were,. or if those Irish Freemasons were racist, the made their passions and prejudices coincide with the just line of their conduct.


Freemasonry aspires to lofty ideas but my experience is that it's simply a microcosm of society

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## David612

AndreAshlar said:


> Freemasonry aspires to lofty ideas but my experience is that it's simply a microcosm of society
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using My Freemasonry mobile app


I tend to agree, but to a slightly higher median overall.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

I think the better thing to promote here is the fact that good things are happening around Freemasonry in the midst of a much divided Nation.

We are busy building bridges internally as equals while the rest of the general population is trying desperately to prove each other the lessor.


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## AndreAshlar

Bro. Stewart P.M. said:


> I think the better thing to promote here is the fact that good things are happening around Freemasonry in the midst of a much divided Nation.
> 
> We are busy building bridges internally as equals while the rest of the general population is trying desperately to prove each other the lessor.


I think its always best to "promote" truth especially as masons. It may be prudent to shy away from only speaking comfortable truths while downplaying the ugly ones. 

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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

AndreAshlar said:


> I think its always best to "promote" truth especially as masons. It may be prudent to shy away from only speaking comfortable truths while downplaying the ugly ones.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using My Freemasonry mobile app



Equal parts sugar to salt my Brother. Carry on.


----------



## David612

I think it’s within our ability to do away with these sort of divisions within our fraternity while preserving the history and uniqueness of our local differences.


----------



## AndreAshlar

David612 said:


> I think it’s within our ability to do away with these sort of divisions within our fraternity while preserving the history and uniqueness of our local differences.


Absolutely. That's the goal.  Being ever mindful that we learn and progress from analyzing the truths of history. 

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----------



## David612

AndreAshlar said:


> Absolutely. That's the goal.  Being ever mindful that we learn and progress from analyzing the truths of history.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using My Freemasonry mobile app


Agreed, in Aus we are fortunate to have very diverse lodges and I truely believe this to be our biggest strength, the network of brothers and diversity of perspective given from those of varying cultures is truly a gift not to be underestimated.
As masonry struggles to redefine itself and stay relevant I find points like this to be often overlooked and invaluable.


----------



## AndreAshlar

Bro. Stewart P.M. said:


> Equal parts sugar to salt my Brother. Carry on.


I almost took that dismissive "carry on" personal my Brother but I'm looking for the best in you and not the worst PM.

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----------



## AndreAshlar

David612 said:


> Agreed, in Aus we are fortunate to have very diverse lodges and I truely believe this to be our biggest strength, the network of brothers and diversity of perspective given from those of varying cultures is truly a gift not to be underestimated.
> As masonry struggles to redefine itself and stay relevant I find points like this to be often overlooked and invaluable.


You're right on point my Brother 

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----------



## AndreAshlar

Bro. Stewart P.M. said:


> We are busy building bridges internally as equals while the rest of the general population is trying desperately to prove each other the lessor.



Excellent observation. 

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----------



## Bro. Stewart P.M.

David612 said:


> I think it’s within our ability to do away with these sort of divisions within our fraternity while preserving the history and uniqueness of our local differences.



Exactly. Spot on. That is exactly the way it should be.

Make a new and much brighter future for all of us.



AndreAshlar said:


> I almost took that dismissive "carry on" personal my Brother but I'm looking for the best in you and not the worst PM.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using My Freemasonry mobile app



The difficulty of carrying on conversation via message or text with anyone is the pure lack of emotion that is carried via real speech. Much is left to the individuals own interpretation. A statement or sentence can carry entirely different meaning, depending upon emotion involved there in.

As a moderator, it is my charge to stay as indifferent as possible yet at the same time engage the audience while making every attempt to remove all emotion on my end. In part you are correct. I meant, for you to carry on with the ongoing conversation.

Have a great evening, Brother. No worries.


----------



## LK600

David612 said:


> The thing is it’s one thing to theoretically understand the history of slavery but an entirely different thing to have lived in country to have it in living memory and to have it as part of day to day life.



Then we must not be talking about the United States, because it hasn't taken place in living memory.  Racism, now thats a different story.  Beyond that, slavery has taken place on every continent on the planet along with most countries.


----------



## AndreAshlar

Bro. Stewart P.M. said:


> Exactly. Spot on. That is exactly the way it should be.
> 
> Make a new and much brighter future for all of us.
> 
> 
> 
> The difficulty of carrying on conversation via message or text with anyone is the pure lack of emotion that is carried via real speech. Much is left to the individuals own interpretation. A statement or sentence can carry entirely different meaning, depending upon emotion involved there in.
> 
> As a moderator, it is my charge to stay as indifferent as possible yet at the same time engage the audience while making every attempt to remove all emotion on my end. In part you are correct. I meant, for you to carry on with the ongoing conversation.
> 
> Have a great evening, Brother. No worries.


Thanks for clarity my Brother. I appreciate that. Have a great evening too. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## David612

LK600 said:


> Then we must not be talking about the United States, because it hasn't taken place in living memory.  Racism, now thats a different story.  Beyond that, slavery has taken place on every continent on the planet along with most countries.


True, I’ve mistyped.
Though it’s not far removed and while the abolishment of slavery didn’t really stop it did it.


----------



## LK600

David612 said:


> True, I’ve mistyped.
> Though it’s not far removed and while the abolishment of slavery didn’t really stop it did it.


No, I would agree with you.  Slavery may have ended in 1865, but the next 100 plus years has been filled with abuses to numerous to count.


----------



## David612

LK600 said:


> No, I would agree with you.  Slavery may have ended in 1865, but the next 100 plus years has been filled with abuses to numerous to count.


True, fortunately we have progressed beyond this (well for the most part anyway) but the notion that this institutional racism exists within the our supposedly enlightened organisation makes my skin crawl.
Honestly I’d like to see recognition pulled from places where this continues if it can’t be rectified in short order.


----------



## LK600

David612 said:


> True, fortunately we have progressed beyond this (well for the most part anyway) but the notion that this institutional racism exists within the our supposedly enlightened organisation makes my skin crawl.
> Honestly I’d like to see recognition pulled from places where this continues if it can’t be rectified in short order.


Yes, we have progressed beyond that.  I would wager, for the majority of Caucasian (God I hate that word) and African Americans, we have moved past racism.  But there still remains those on both sides continuing to cause division and shame.


----------



## David612

Quite right, it’s hard for me to even grasp as it’s such a unique bit of history that the rest of the world dosnt understand.
When I was in DC being the only white folk on the bus there was defiantly some tension, however once we opened our mouths and it became obvious we wherent local that subsided quickly.


----------



## LK600

David612 said:


> Quite right, it’s hard for me to even grasp as it’s such a unique bit of history that the rest of the world dosnt understand.
> When I was in DC being the only white folk on the bus there was defiantly some tension, however once we opened our mouths and it became obvious we wherent local that subsided quickly.


My family came to the United States in 1910(ish).  One side came from Sicily, the other from Ireland.  I could claim I have no dog in this fight but, this would be not true.  I never understood hating on a people because of skin tone.  Personally, I LOVE exploring other people's cultures (especially the foods!  I am a Mason after all lol).


----------



## David612

LK600 said:


> My family came to the United States in 1910(ish).  One side came from Sicily, the other from Ireland.  I could claim I have no dog in this fight but, this would be not true.  I never understood hating on a people because of skin tone.  Personally, I LOVE exploring other people's cultures (especially the foods!  I am a Mason after all lol).


True, the way the white settlers treated the Aboriginal people here in Aus is quite akin to the way the American Indians where treated in a lot of ways.
I’ve got Scottish, Irish and Greek blood so yeah.. there is trouble on any front really at some point in history.


----------



## Glen Cook

David612 said:


> True, fortunately we have progressed beyond this (well for the most part anyway) but the notion that this institutional racism exists within the our supposedly enlightened organisation makes my skin crawl.
> Honestly I’d like to see recognition pulled from places where this continues if it can’t be rectified in short order.


What about PHA GLs in amity with unrecognized groups, such as GLdF?


----------



## AndreAshlar

Glen Cook said:


> What about PHA GLs in amity with unrecognized groups, such as GLdF?


Who is GLdF?

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----------



## David612

AndreAshlar said:


> Who is GLdF?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using My Freemasonry mobile app


I’m sure he means Gandalf


----------



## LK600

*Grande Loge de France*


----------



## David612

As far as that goes, that’s for the Grand lodges to mess around with.
They can play politics and all that malarkey but when a man is referred on to Prince Hall masonry because he is black, that is more than a masonic recognition issue.


----------



## Glen Cook

AndreAshlar said:


> Who is GLdF?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using My Freemasonry mobile app


Sorry. Grand Lodge of France.


----------



## Glen Cook

David612 said:


> As far as that goes, that’s for the Grand lodges to mess around with.
> They can play politics and all that malarkey but when a man is referred on to Prince Hall masonry because he is black, that is more than a masonic recognition issue.


Well, yes, and the comment was based on your statement “Honestly I’d like to see recognition pulled from places where this continues if it can’t be rectified in short order.”   

I think you’ll agree that your proposal to withdraw recognition is not as neat and simple as it sounds. 

Your second point was not at issue.


----------



## David612

Glen Cook said:


> Well, yes, and the comment was based on your statement “Honestly I’d like to see recognition pulled from places where this continues if it can’t be rectified in short order.”
> 
> I think you’ll agree that your proposal to withdraw recognition is not as neat and simple as it sounds.
> 
> Your second point was not at issue.


I was being facetious but it’s true that I would like to see a more active effort however the fact that things are changing is fantastic, it just brings a lot of shame upon us all that this is still a relevant discussion within the organisation.


----------



## Warrior1256

Glen Cook said:


> Well, yes, and the comment was based on your statement “Honestly I’d like to see recognition pulled from places where this continues if it can’t be rectified in short order.”
> 
> I think you’ll agree that your proposal to withdraw recognition is not as neat and simple as it sounds.


Yep, we've been on this issue a few times before .
Grand Lodge A pulls recognition from Grand Lodge B. GL C gets upset over this and pulls recognition from GL A. GL D gets upset and pulls recognition from GLs B and C.....and so on and so forth. Where does it end?


----------



## dfreybur

Bloke said:


> Indeed. But it was still a surprise to discover Freemasonry did not stand aside from that, but as a institution of society, it makes sense that the Freemasons who comprised those lodges were racist -but even typing that feels wrong. I always point out, that according to the tradition history, the only reason Prince Hall Freemasonry was born was because a group of White Irish Freemasons initiated Prince Hall and his companions because they were not racist like local American Freemasons were,. or if those Irish Freemasons were racist, the made their passions and prejudices coincide with the just line of their conduct.



Read up on Irish slavery.  The entire world needed to practice slavery once agriculture was invented or most would starve.  Advances like beasts of burden and plow improvements allowed that ancient evil to be stopped one region at a time.  Ireland had a much more recent experience of slavery than the rest of western Europe - In an era when Russia freeing the serfs was still more than a century in the future.  This would have increased their sympathy on the issue.

This is something that just occurred to me today, but likely it's been discussed by others for many years.


----------



## Bloke

dfreybur said:


> Read up on Irish slavery.  The entire world needed to practice slavery once agriculture was invented or most would starve.  Advances like beasts of burden and plow improvements allowed that ancient evil to be stopped one region at a time.  Ireland had a much more recent experience of slavery than the rest of western Europe - In an era when Russia freeing the serfs was still more than a century in the future.  This would have increased their sympathy on the issue.
> 
> This is something that just occurred to me today, but likely it's been discussed by others for many years.


Well familiar with those things, although not sure the plow was the hinge on which slavery ended..


----------



## Bloke

AndreAshlar said:


> Freemasonry aspires to lofty ideas but my experience is that it's simply a microcosm of society
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using My Freemasonry mobile app


If that's the case - then we need to try harder... and in that, while you can try to influence others, the only person you can control is yourself.


----------



## Warrior1256

Bloke said:


> while you can try to influence others, the only person you can control is yourself.


True and well said Brother!


----------



## David612

Bloke said:


> If that's the case - then we need to try harder... and in that, while you can try to influence others, the only person you can control is yourself.


That’s not the anew world order attitude


----------



## Dontrell Stroman

David612 said:


> As far as that goes, that’s for the Grand lodges to mess around with.
> They can play politics and all that malarkey but when a man is referred on to Prince Hall masonry because he is black, that is more than a masonic recognition issue.


Happens all the time brother. True story, I was raised a MM in 2014. My previous commander in the military was just getting his EA degree when he found out I was a freemason. Later, after he was raised he said that he didn't understand the PHA and GL of state Issues. I tried to explain to best of my ability without pointing fingers at one particular GL (Although, I will say I believe there is more heavy racism on the GL of TN side). He later told me that I ought to try and join his lodge. In order for me to do that, I would have to go through a long process denouncing PHA and "try" to petition his lodge. I had him raise the question in a stated meeting. He came back and said although we are one of the most liberal lodges in the state of TN , raising a black man would cause issues with the GL and possibility have our charter pulled.


----------



## David612

Travelling Man91 said:


> Happens all the time brother. True story, I was raised a MM in 2014. My previous commander in the military was just getting his EA degree when he found out I was a freemason. Later, after he was raised he said that he didn't understand the PHA and GL of state Issues. I tried to explain to best of my ability without pointing fingers at one particular GL (Although, I will say I believe there is more heavy racism on the GL of TN side). He later told me that I ought to try and join his lodge. In order for me to do that, I would have to go through a long process denouncing PHA and "try" to petition his lodge. I had him raise the question in a stated meeting. He came back and said although we are one of the most liberal lodges in the state of TN , raising a black man would cause issues with the GL and possibility have our charter pulled.


Im very sorry to hear that, it really makes my heart sink.
Out of curiosity, what is the make up of the local PH lodges? 
All black or is it more multicultural?


----------



## Dontrell Stroman

Predominantly black. Although we do have some Hispanic and White brethren


----------



## Warrior1256

David612 said:


> That’s not the anew world order attitude


Lol!


Travelling Man91 said:


> I had him raise the question in a stated meeting. He came back and said although we are one of the most liberal lodges in the state of TN , raising a black man would cause issues with the GL and possibility have our charter pulled.


Very sorry to hear this.


----------



## AndreAshlar

dfreybur said:


> Read up on Irish slavery.  The entire world needed to practice slavery once agriculture was invented or most would starve.  Advances like beasts of burden and plow improvements allowed that ancient evil to be stopped one region at a time.  Ireland had a much more recent experience of slavery than the rest of western Europe



False. That's a myth. Indentured servitude is not slavery. 

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----------



## dfreybur

AndreAshlar said:


> False. That's a myth. Indentured servitude is not slavery.



You are thinking of immigrants to the American colonies.  I am thinking of Irish plantations in Ireland run by conquering Brits of that era.  The regiments were recruited from Ireland and they were one way to escape that oppression.


----------



## LK600

dfreybur said:


> You are thinking of immigrants to the American colonies.  I am thinking of Irish plantations in Ireland run by conquering Brits of that era.  The regiments were recruited from Ireland and they were one way to escape that oppression.


 No race has the market cornered on slavery, that's for sure.


----------



## acjohnson53

Very good conversation...


----------



## AndreAshlar

LK600 said:


> No race has the market cornered on slavery, that's for sure.



In world history? You're right. In American history?  You're wrong. Blacks have the market cornered. 

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----------



## LK600

AndreAshlar said:


> In world history? You're right. In American history?  You're wrong. Blacks have the market cornered.



I was referring to global, because I do not know of any race that has not held slaves.  As for American History, I would not argue with your assertion but I would suggest Native Americans might have a strong argument.


----------



## Bro Book

LK600 said:


> I was referring to global, because I do not know of any race that has not held slaves.  As for American History, I would not argue with your assertion but I would suggest Native Americans might have a strong argument.


Globally Africans were the only ones enslaved just because of being black?

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----------



## Ripcord22A

Bro Book said:


> Globally Africans were the only ones enslaved just because of being black?
> 
> Sent from my RCT6973W43 using My Freemasonry mobile app



They weren’t enslaved just for being black,  they were enslaved because their Tribal leaders in Africa were willing to sell them to the Slave Traders.  I’m sorry but not a SINGLE person alive today knows what being a slave was like, or has been a slave.  I speak of those born in America obviously.  It’s time we as a people move past it.  I’m tired of people claiming that the “white”Americans need to pay reparations to “black” Americans,  come on now....


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----------



## Bloke

Ripcord22A said:


> They weren’t enslaved just for being black,  they were enslaved because their Tribal leaders in Africa were willing to sell them to the Slave Traders.  I’m sorry but not a SINGLE person alive today knows what being a slave was like, or has been a slave.  I speak of those born in America obviously.  It’s time we as a people move past it.  I’m tired of people claiming that the “white”Americans need to pay reparations to “black” Americans,  come on now....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


ummmm .. I'd love to say slavery is dead - but it continues in some parts of the world my brother... We've even got issues with it here ( http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/20...amp-out-modern-slavery-tabling-report/9234784 - and I know that might fall more in the category of "exploited workers" but the report was about slavery..) but its in the sex trade where true modern slavery  is rife.. it's even been found in the USA... human trafficking is alive and well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_trafficking_in_the_United_States & https://www.businessinsider.com.au/a-portrait-of-human-sex-trafficking-in-america-2014-8 - but there is a lot of research in this space.. a niece made me aware of it some years ago when we were talking about prostitution (legal here) when trafficked woman were found in Melbourne brothels..  it's not a nice topic, but many countries, especially first world ones, need to do more on, because it is within out borders.. Horrendous.


----------



## Ripcord22A

Bloke said:


> ummmm .. I'd love to say slavery is dead - but it continues in some parts of the world my brother... We've even got issues with it here ( http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/20...amp-out-modern-slavery-tabling-report/9234784 - and I know that might fall more in the category of "exploited workers" but the report was about slavery..) but its in the sex trade where true modern slavery  is rife.. it's even been found in the USA... human trafficking is alive and well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_trafficking_in_the_United_States & https://www.businessinsider.com.au/a-portrait-of-human-sex-trafficking-in-america-2014-8 - but there is a lot of research in this space.. a niece made me aware of it some years ago when we were talking about prostitution (legal here) when trafficked woman were found in Melbourne brothels..  it's not a nice topic, but many countries, especially first world ones, need to do more on, because it is within out borders.. Horrendous.



Yes brother but I was referring to the “black” slave trade 


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----------



## LK600

Bro Book said:


> Globally Africans were the only ones enslaved just because of being black?



Your sentence structure is rather interesting (could be taken more than one way), but to respond to the most obvious... no.  



Ripcord22A said:


> I’m sorry but not a SINGLE person alive today knows what being a slave was like, or has been a slave. I speak of those born in America obviously. It’s time we as a people move past it.



As a racial group, Black's have been treated like second and third class citizens for over a century.  Not generations ago, but within LIVING memory of many people still alive today.  

I tend to not cut people slack for anything to include grouping all white people together as a class and holding them equally responsible for something that happened years ago.  Some people call that being insensitive... I tend to call that bullshit.  We are all equally responsible for what we say and do to each other.  But the history is there.  The reality is Blacks may have ample reason to be on guard.


----------



## Ripcord22A

LK600 said:


> As a racial group, Black's have been treated like second and third class citizens for over a century.  Not generations ago, but within LIVING memory of many people still alive today.


So are the Irish, the Jews, the whites is certain parts of the country, Asians ect ect ect.  To blame ones situation on another persons actions is laziness.




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----------



## Bro. Stewart P.M.

I am going to monitor the direction of this thread very closely.

This is a topic that can become, and historically has become, very heated. I am going to suggest that the discussion retain a traditional Debate format, remain factual, based upon proven, reliable, and properly cited sources, and lastly free from emotion. This is a subject of modern time, and can be properly discussed among like minded individuals, and Brothers.

Behavior WILL remain that of the confines of the Sanctum Santorum.


----------



## LK600

Bro. Stewart P.M. said:


> I am going to monitor the direction of this thread very closely.
> 
> This is a topic that can become, and historically has become, very heated. I am going to suggest that the discussion retain a traditional Debate format, remain factual, based upon proven, reliable, and properly cited sources, and lastly free from emotion. This is a subject of modern time, and can be properly discussed among like minded individuals, and Brothers.
> 
> Behavior WILL remain that of the confines of the Sanctum Santorum.


Understood.  I'm not sure there's much more I can add to this anyway based on responses.  So, I'd agree with your assessment.  I respectfully withdraw.


----------



## MRichard

Indentured servants is not comparable to slavery. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/...imes&smtyp=cur&referer=http://m.facebook.com/


----------



## Bloke

MRichard said:


> Indentured servants is not comparable to slavery. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/...imes&smtyp=cur&referer=http://m.facebook.com/


Sort of agree, often its good to compare things to see how they are the same and how they are not, an indentured servant is not a slave, but they are on some sort of scale with freedom on one side and slavery on the other - with indentured servant between the two others... however, modern slavery does exist, and the most common being around the sex trade... but there is one big difference between the African (American) slave trade and modern slavery - the American slave trade as legal and generally socially accepted AND generational. That puts it in a class of its own, especially considering it existed post 1800 and in a society which would have laid claim to the title of "a modern western democracy".

And I offer my usual disclaimer - I'm a dumb Australian and can approach these topics with a lack of awareness... but I think it is important to talk about modern slavery... if we think it was bad 150 years ago, and it exists today (even if only in some form, not quite the same) it should not be tolerated...


----------



## Warrior1256

Bloke said:


> I think it is important to talk about modern slavery... if we think it was bad 150 years ago, and it exists today (even if only in some form, not quite the same) it should not be tolerated...


Agreed.


----------



## MRichard

I think it is important to discuss racism that is in the craft. People don't want to talk about it but it is a serious problem in some areas.


----------



## acjohnson53

Be it Free and Accepted or Ancient Free and Accepted we’re Master Masons


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----------



## acjohnson53

We should govern ourselves accordingly. Some of the words have been changed to protect the innocent...


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----------



## Glen Cook

acjohnson53 said:


> Be it Free and Accepted or Ancient Free and Accepted we’re Master Masons
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


I don’t understand the reference to the letter designation.


----------



## acjohnson53

What letter are you talking about???


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----------



## Glen Cook

acjohnson53 said:


> What letter are you talking about???
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


“Be it Free and Accepted or Ancient Free and Accepted we’re Master Masons”

I don’t have understand the distinction you are trying to draw.


----------



## MRichard

Glen Cook said:


> “Be it Free and Accepted or Ancient Free and Accepted we’re Master Masons”
> 
> I don’t have understand the distinction you are trying to draw.



Be careful what you ask for! You know better, Bro. Cook!


----------



## Warrior1256

Glen Cook said:


> “Be it Free and Accepted or Ancient Free and Accepted we’re Master Masons”
> 
> I don’t have understand the distinction you are trying to draw.


I don't get this either.


MRichard said:


> Be careful what you ask for! You know better, Bro. Cook!


????


----------



## Rifleman1776

MRichard said:


> I think it is important to discuss racism that is in the craft. People don't want to talk about it but it is a serious problem in some areas.



This thread has certainly drifted. I have no personal experience with PH Masonry. But, living in a southern state, I am well aware that considerable bigotry still exists. Unlikely that a black would be voted into most regular Lodges in this state as it requires only one black ball to reject and there is bound to be, at least, one bigot at most  meetings.  If I see a black wearing a Masonic ring or lapel pin it is with nearly 100% certainty he belongs to a PH Lodge. Arkansas GL Masonry is in such a mess currently, I do not even know if PH is recognized. (I belong to Lodge in Missouri just because of that "mess"). But, I do have occasional contact with black Masons. I get my health care at the VA hospital in Little Rock, Arkansas. Not unusual for a black veteran to approach me, stick out his hand and say "Hi Brother".  He/they are Brothers, no doubt. As far as I am personally concerned, PH Brothers are recognized.


----------



## Glen Cook

Rifleman1776 said:


> This thread has certainly drifted. I have no personal experience with PH Masonry. But, living in a southern state, I am well aware that considerable bigotry still exists. Unlikely that a black would be voted into most regular Lodges in this state as it requires only one black ball to reject and there is bound to be, at least, one bigot at most  meetings.  If I see a black wearing a Masonic ring or lapel pin it is with nearly 100% certainty he belongs to a PH Lodge. Arkansas GL Masonry is in such a mess currently, I do not even know if PH is recognized. (I belong to Lodge in Missouri just because of that "mess"). But, I do have occasional contact with black Masons. I get my health care at the VA hospital in Little Rock, Arkansas. Not unusual for a black veteran to approach me, stick out his hand and say "Hi Brother".  He/they are Brothers, no doubt. As far as I am personally concerned, PH Brothers are recognized.


AR does not recognise PHA.


----------



## dfreybur

Glen Cook said:


> AR does not recognise PHA.



Is it worth pulling recognition of GLofAR over their obstinacy?  Most think it's not; that local sovereignty beats support of appendent bodies.  But consider - If some jurisdiction were to pull recognition of GLofAR there is a regular jurisdiction in that territory.  The jurisdiction pulling the recognition could also recognize MWPHGLofAR and the problem is over.  Because then the only solution available to GLofAR would be to BOTH recognize MWPHGLofAR AND clean up their own mess.

No jurisdiction is going to do this, but think about it.  Screw up badly enough internally and you may well be required to solve more than one problem.

AR isn't the only jurisdiction with a huge problem.  GLofTN brought politics or religion into lodge enough that GLofCA pulled recognition.  Last I heard that's still the situation.  I suggested to my mother lodge that they suggest the strategy I mention here, but they didn't get it.  "We already recognize Prince Hall" was the response.  Not being physically present I wasn't able to explain enough of the moving parts.

Several years ago GLofFL faced having their recognition pulled over bringing religion into tiled lodge spaces.  They avoided that by voting down approval of the outgoing GM's edict as he was replaced the next year.  Now they are moving towards recognition.  Good for Florida for learning the hard way and correcting on their own.


----------



## MRichard

dfreybur said:


> Is it worth pulling recognition of GLofAR over their obstinacy?  Most think it's not; that local sovereignty beats support of appendent bodies.  But consider - If some jurisdiction were to pull recognition of GLofAR there is a regular jurisdiction in that territory.  The jurisdiction pulling the recognition could also recognize MWPHGLofAR and the problem is over.  Because then the only solution available to GLofAR would be to BOTH recognize MWPHGLofAR AND clean up their own mess.
> 
> No jurisdiction is going to do this, but think about it.  Screw up badly enough internally and you may well be required to solve more than one problem.
> 
> AR isn't the only jurisdiction with a huge problem.  GLofTN brought politics or religion into lodge enough that GLofCA pulled recognition.  Last I heard that's still the situation.  I suggested to my mother lodge that they suggest the strategy I mention here, but they didn't get it.  "We already recognize Prince Hall" was the response.  Not being physically present I wasn't able to explain enough of the moving parts.
> 
> Several years ago GLofFL faced having their recognition pulled over bringing religion into tiled lodge spaces.  They avoided that by voting down approval of the outgoing GM's edict as he was replaced the next year.  Now they are moving towards recognition.  Good for Florida for learning the hard way and correcting on their own.



Oklahoma pulled recognition and then relented. Kansas did so a few months ago although I wasn't sure why.


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## MRichard

http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2018/03/gl-of-kansas-withdraws-amity-with.html?m=1


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## Glen Cook

dfreybur said:


> Is it worth pulling recognition of GLofAR over their obstinacy?  Most think it's not; that local sovereignty beats support of appendent bodies.  But consider - If some jurisdiction were to pull recognition of GLofAR there is a regular jurisdiction in that territory.  The jurisdiction pulling the recognition could also recognize MWPHGLofAR and the problem is over.  Because then the only solution available to GLofAR would be to BOTH recognize MWPHGLofAR AND clean up their own mess.
> 
> No jurisdiction is going to do this, but think about it.  Screw up badly enough internally and you may well be required to solve more than one problem.
> 
> AR isn't the only jurisdiction with a huge problem.  GLofTN brought politics or religion into lodge enough that GLofCA pulled recognition.  Last I heard that's still the situation.  I suggested to my mother lodge that they suggest the strategy I mention here, but they didn't get it.  "We already recognize Prince Hall" was the response.  Not being physically present I wasn't able to explain enough of the moving parts.
> 
> Several years ago GLofFL faced having their recognition pulled over bringing religion into tiled lodge spaces.  They avoided that by voting down approval of the outgoing GM's edict as he was replaced the next year.  Now they are moving towards recognition.  Good for Florida for learning the hard way and correcting on their own.


Over the failure to recognise PHA, I don’t see that as a likely basis to withdraw recognition. I think it more likely they will lose recognition over the allegations they will refuse to issue a demit for AR Masons to join GLs which do recognise their PHA counterpart or to  allow Arkansas members to sit in grand Lodges who recognise there PHA counterparts   . Remember that it takes some time between an incident and the next annual communication for action to be taken.


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## Rifleman1776

dfreybur said:


> Is it worth pulling recognition of GLofAR over their obstinacy?  Most think it's not; that local sovereignty beats support of appendent bodies.  But consider - If some jurisdiction were to pull recognition of GLofAR there is a regular jurisdiction in that territory.  The jurisdiction pulling the recognition could also recognize MWPHGLofAR and the problem is over.  Because then the only solution available to GLofAR would be to BOTH recognize MWPHGLofAR AND clean up their own mess.
> 
> No jurisdiction is going to do this, but think about it.  Screw up badly enough internally and you may well be required to solve more than one problem.
> 
> AR isn't the only jurisdiction with a huge problem.  GLofTN brought politics or religion into lodge enough that GLofCA pulled recognition.  Last I heard that's still the situation.  I suggested to my mother lodge that they suggest the strategy I mention here, but they didn't get it.  "We already recognize Prince Hall" was the response.  Not being physically present I wasn't able to explain enough of the moving parts.
> 
> Several years ago GLofFL faced having their recognition pulled over bringing religion into tiled lodge spaces.  They avoided that by voting down approval of the outgoing GM's edict as he was replaced the next year.  Now they are moving towards recognition.  Good for Florida for learning the hard way and correcting on their own.


  Br.
I agree. But situation in Arkansas likely to change. There is a certain mindset among those in power about doing things a certain way that often has nothing to do with the teachings of Masonry. There is a little light however. I understand the current GWM is trying to make changes that will remedy the situation. Hope so. Currently, I am told I would not be allowed to sit in the Arkansas Lodge where I was raised because I am a Shriner. Sad. I would have left Masonry completely but I still believe in what Masonry is SUPPOSED  to be and my Missouri Lodge is what it should be.


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## Glen Cook

Rifleman1776 said:


> Br.
> I agree. But situation in Arkansas likely to change. There is a certain mindset among those in power about doing things a certain way that often has nothing to do with the teachings of Masonry. There is a little light however. I understand the current GWM is trying to make changes that will remedy the situation. Hope so. Currently, I am told I would not be allowed to sit in the Arkansas Lodge where I was raised because I am a Shriner. Sad. I would have left Masonry completely but I still believe in what Masonry is SUPPOSED  to be and my Missouri Lodge is what it should be.


Not arguing you were told that, but my understanding is that the prohibition only runs to AR Masons. If you see something official, it would be good to know.


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## Warrior1256

dfreybur said:


> But consider - If some jurisdiction were to pull recognition of GLofAR there is a regular jurisdiction in that territory. The jurisdiction pulling the recognition could also recognize MWPHGLofAR and the problem is over. Because then the only solution available to GLofAR would be to BOTH recognize MWPHGLofAR AND clean up their own mess.


Wow! Certainly a point to ponder.


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## dfreybur

Glen Cook said:


> Over the failure to recognise PHA, I don’t see that as a likely basis to withdraw recognition. I think it more likely they will lose recognition over the allegations they will refuse to issue a demit for AR Masons to join GLs which do recognise their PHA counterpart or to  allow Arkansas members to sit in grand Lodges who recognise there PHA counterparts   . Remember that it takes some time between an incident and the next annual communication for action to be taken.



Right.  The examples I used where only about screwing up in other ways and using that as external pressure to solve their own problems.

In AR it's not its dealing with the Shrine.  It's violating the landmarks over granting demits in a way that violates the sovereignty of their neighbors.  Masonry can not become a tyranny because Brothers can always demit.  GLofAR is definitely violating that.  It doesn't matter in the least that they are moving towards solution.  Other jurisdictions should not permit them to ban demits to other jurisdictions.

In TN it's violating the landmarks about bringing religion and politics into tiled spaces by adopting a rule from one specific religion and one specific political party.

In FL it was going to be about establishing specific allowed and disallowed religions, but then they cleaned up their own house and are now becoming an example of how to clean up their entire house without needing extreme treatment by outsiders.

I know that pulling recognition over failure to recognize PHA is not currently going to happen.  But several jurisdictions did pull recognition over granting PHA recognition and they were laughed down by the rest of American Masonry.  At some point we can and should run that laugh down to completion.

Still, I do suggest that it's time to resolve double screw up issues like my list above.  Show American jurisdictions that if they screw up badly enough they will be expected to resolve all of their problems not just the screw up du jour.


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## Rifleman1776

Bro. Doug, heartily agree. My earlier post I meant to say "not likely to change".  The demit situation in Arkansas is so egregious a Brother from another state Lodge but living in Arkansas has not been able to get required demits and letters of good standing to allow petitioning our Missouri Lodge for membership. He has become a sort of non-person as far as Arkansas Masonry is concerned. (and I'm tempted to not capitalize 'Masonry' when used in connection with Arkansas)


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## Warrior1256

Rifleman1776 said:


> The demit situation in Arkansas is so egregious a Brother from another state Lodge but living in Arkansas has not been able to get required demits and letters of good standing to allow petitioning our Missouri Lodge for membership. He has become a sort of non-person as far as Arkansas Masonry is concerned. (and I'm tempted to not capitalize 'Masonry' when used in connection with Arkansas)


The more I read about the situation in Arkansas the more I am amazed. I had no idea that the situation these was so bad!


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## Glen Cook

Rifleman1776 said:


> Bro. Doug, heartily agree. My earlier post I meant to say "not likely to change".  The demit situation in Arkansas is so egregious a Brother from another state Lodge but living in Arkansas has not been able to get required demits and letters of good standing to allow petitioning our Missouri Lodge for membership. He has become a sort of non-person as far as Arkansas Masonry is concerned. (and I'm tempted to not capitalize 'Masonry' when used in connection with Arkansas)


Indeed. Luckily, Utah does not require a dimit to petition for affiliation, only proof of good standing, such as a dues card.


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## Rifleman1776

Yes. It is that bad. That is why I believe it would be best to have a central authority, like American Grand Lodge. Then they could step in and kick some butt. Sadly, that is not the case.


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## Glen Cook

Rifleman1776 said:


> Yes. It is that bad. That is why I believe it would be best to have a central authority, like American Grand Lodge. Then they could step in and kick some butt. Sadly, that is not the case.


Which is the same reason I resist a national Grand Lodge, because we can have bad policies imposed nation wide and  the individual mason will have little input. 

Further, other GLs can already kick butt. They each have the power to suspend recognition. If they don’t impose that power now, I see no reason they would do so as a group. Additionally, a GL can be removed from the CGMNA. The CGMNA can censure the grand lodge.


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## Warrior1256

Glen Cook said:


> Which is the same reason I resist a national Grand Lodge, because we can have bad policies imposed nation wide and the individual mason will have little input.


Have to agree. I am very much against a national governing body.


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## dfreybur

Glen Cook said:


> Further, other GLs can already kick butt. They each have the power to suspend recognition. If they don’t impose that power now, I see no reason they would do so as a group. Additionally, a GL can be removed from the CGMNA. The CGMNA can censure the grand lodge.



Something else.  Other GLs can accept demits to their lodges from GLofAR and just plain laugh in GLofAR's face at complaints.  Thus ignoring any attempt to keep good men from leaving a bad jurisdiction.  Tyrants get stuffed.


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## coachn

dfreybur said:


> ...Several years ago GLofFL faced having their recognition pulled over bringing religion into tiled lodge spaces.  They avoided that by voting down approval of the outgoing GM's edict as he was replaced the next year.  Now they are moving towards recognition.  Good for Florida for learning the hard way and correcting on their own.


<cough>  FL Brothers didn't bring anything into their lodges.  It was the then GM that put this ugliness onto the laps of his GL Brothers. And because of the timing of this bombshell, we had to wait until GL to voice our collective opposition to it.  And we did in grand fashion.

There was no "learning the hard way" on this.  What you don't know is that it wasn't until this year at GL session that we were actually able to voice our collective want to put the recognition issue forward.

It ain't how you're painting it Bro. and it's clear you have no clue as to what is and was going on.


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## Glen Cook

dfreybur said:


> Something else.  Other GLs can accept demits to their lodges from GLofAR and just plain laugh in GLofAR's face at complaints.  Thus ignoring any attempt to keep good men from leaving a bad jurisdiction.  Tyrants get stuffed.


And it is being done


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