# Attending Church Inquiry



## Heirophant (Mar 21, 2011)

Hi Brothers,

I was sitting with a few brethren in my lodge and the discussion of 'attending church' came up over an experience one of us had while visiting a hospital recently.

We had a laugh when Bill (a member of our lodge) spoke to us about how some random stranger walked past him and accused him of being a 'devil worshipper' (because he was wearing our Lodge Belt Buckle with a 'square & compass' ), the conversation turned into a conversation regarding 'knowledge' and 'wisdom' and...."going to church".

Bill ended the converstation with a snide remark about attending church. Something to the affect of..." well not everyone here attends church so I should be a 'good christian' and stop talking bad about other people" (knowing good and well I was the only one there whom doesn't attend church service of any sort).


I may not attend 'church' (due to past negative experiences) but since when is 'attending church' a requirement for 'mutual respect' amongst Masons?


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## Traveling Man (Mar 21, 2011)

Heirophant said:


> I may not attend 'church' (due to past negative experiences) but since when is 'attending church' a requirement for 'mutual respect' amongst Masons?



I've never heard of that being a requirement either. Maybe I'm in the dark on this too?


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## Michaelstedman81 (Mar 22, 2011)

I never have heard of that.  In fact, I still haven't met a Brother that has acted like that when it came to those that went to church or not.  If attending church services was a requirement to gain mutual respect from other Masons, what is the point of calling it a "brotherhood"?  Especially with a lot of the values and morals that Masonry teaches us about ourselves and other people around us.  

The way I look at it when it comes to this other guy is the whole "to each his own".  There are times in my life when I avoided church because of people like that in the church.  It is even more crappy that you are trying to attend church and do the same thing everyone else is there doing, but you are an outcast of some sort because you came from a different church or even just from a different city!!!  There have been a couple of churches that I have attended, though, that were absolutely great.  They didn't care where you came from or if it was your first time and you were just testing the waters.  They wanted to rejoice and worship with you.  If you picked up with it, great, if not.  Oh well.  They were still there for you.  

There are always going to be those folks that for some reason think  they are better than someone else because of something.  It sucks that a Brother of our same teachings can't help but let that feeling get the better of him and let himself make an insulting comment about another Brother.  

Then again, with no finger pointing at you, maybe you misunderstood him or maybe he was joking and you didn't pick up on the humor?  Either way, you have the right outlook on it from my perspective and that you don't need to be attending service to have mutual respect from other Masons.  Just be the better Mason and let it slide right off and keep going with your direction


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Mar 22, 2011)

Heirophant said:


> Hi Brothers,
> 
> Bill ended the converstation with a snide remark about attending church. Something to the affect of..." well not everyone here attends church so I should be a 'good christian' and stop talking bad about other people" (knowing good and well I was the only one there whom doesn't attend church service of any sort).
> 
> ...



It is not. It is a sad fact that not every one of our Brethren understands enough about the Craft to understand even this.
 I mean, setting aside the obvious point that not every Brother is a Christian or will have a religion that involves "church", the _way _any given Brother practices his devotions to deity is none of our business.


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## S.Courtemanche (Mar 22, 2011)

to be honest it makes me wonder what other reservations he may have??


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## Tony Siciliano (Mar 22, 2011)

+1 to Bro. Flotsam's post and Bro. Courtmanche's post.


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## fairmanjd (Mar 23, 2011)

I may have to respectfully disagree and play a little bit of the devil's advocate here. During my petitioning and investigation, I was asked how active I am in my church and how often I attend. That being said, I was also told, "We don't care which plane you take; but it is important you be at the airport."... meaning, of course, that its not important what particular religion a brother is; but he should follow one and be active in it. I tend to agree with this.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Mar 23, 2011)

fairmanjd said:


> I may have to respectfully disagree and play a little bit of the devil's advocate here. During my petitioning and investigation, I was asked how active I am in my church and how often I attend. That being said, I was also told, "We don't care which plane you take; but it is important you be at the airport."... meaning, of course, that its not important what particular religion a brother is; but he should follow one and be active in it. I tend to agree with this.



I agree, with most of this. One of the EA's working tools stresses the importance of regular devotions to deity, so the importance of that portion of our daily activities should be clear, but IMO, asking a candidate about his church activity is out of line. Hardly surprising, but definitely venturing into an area that should be between a candidate/Brother and his deity. Asking about "church" betrays a marked prejudice toward those religions that congregate every Sunday.


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## Zack (Mar 23, 2011)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> I agree, with most of this. One of the EA's working tools stresses the importance of regular devotions to deity, so the importance of that portion of our daily activities should be clear, but IMO, asking a candidate about his church activity is out of line. Hardly surprising, but definitely venturing into an area that should be between a candidate/Brother and his deity. Asking about "church" betrays a marked prejudice toward those religions that congregate every Sunday.



For me, a "church" is not necessary for my time spent in devotion to my Deity.
Had I been asked about church attendance I would have told them to MYOB and given back the petition.


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## fairmanjd (Mar 23, 2011)

Keep in mind my lodge is in the buckle of the Bible Belt... If I had told them I practiced Bhuddism or Shintoism, it wouldn't have been a problem. Its just the fact the main religion practiced in the community wherein the lodge is located happens to be Christianity. If I was petitioning in Saudi Arabia, I wouldn't be shocked or appalled i I were asked how often I attend prayer or mosque.


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## jwhoff (Mar 23, 2011)

Every man's _*church*_ can only be attended within his heart.  One who attends any specific Sunday-Go-2-Meeting franchise may be present and not attend his _*church*_ at any given service.  Or he may.  The point is, physical surroundings are not required for one to be in touch with his maker.  Reflect upon your last close encounter with eternity.  Could you ever have been closer to your maker in a physical building?  Could you have thanked him (or her) any more for deliverance?   

All said, one should not down-play organized religion.  It is a necessity of civilization.  It can and most often does great work for humanity.  However, like the double edged sword, organized religion can be very dangerous in the hands of the power hungry.  There is  vast casum between leadership and control.


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## Beathard (Mar 23, 2011)

I believe that church in the original connotation was the fellowship of believers. It was not tied to a building or place. I have fellowship with people that have the same beliefs as me all of the time, therefore I am always in church, but rarely in a bureaucratic building.  

Johnstone provides the following seven characteristics of churches:
1) claim universality, include all members of the society within their ranks, and have a strong tendency to equate "citizenship" with "membership"
2) exercise religious monopoly and try to eliminate religious competition
3) are very closely allied with the state and secular powers&ndash;frequently there is overlapping of responsibilities and much mutual reinforcement
4) are extensively organized as a hierarchical bureaucratic institution with a complex division of labor
5) employ professional, full-time clergy who possess the appropriate credentials of education and formal ordination
6) primarily gain new members through natural reproduction and the socialization of children into the ranks
7) allow for diversity by creating different groups within the church (e.g., orders of nuns or monks) rather than through the formation of new religions

I have problems with points 1-4. I also believe diversity (point 7) should be extended to living peacefully within a population that includes people of other religions, but that would be a problem with the churches usual goal of eliminating other faiths (point 2). 

Sorry for the long rambling, but I feel it is important for masons to be religious men. I do not believe that all masons should be required to fit themselves into a bureaucratic organization called a church.

BTW, even with these beliefs I am a registered member of the Methodist Church.

I have never felt closer to my maker than my daughter's baptism in a Methodist Church, touring a small chapel in Sienna Italy, and watching a leopard cross the road in Namibia. The Grand Architect can be found in many places.


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## jhodgdon (Mar 23, 2011)

jwhoff said:
			
		

> Every man's church can only be attended within his heart.  One who attends any specific Sunday-Go-2-Meeting franchise may be present and not attend his church at any given service.  Or he may.  The point is, physical surroundings are not required for one to be in touch with his maker.  Reflect upon your last close encounter with eternity.  Could you ever have been closer to your maker in a physical building?  Could you have thanked him (or her) any more for deliverance?
> 
> All said, one should not down-play organized religion.  It is a necessity of civilization.  It can and most often does great work for humanity.  However, like the double edged sword, organized religion can be very dangerous in the hands of the power hungry.  There is  vast casum between leadership and control.



Couldn't agree more. I think each individual's personal relationship with the Great Architect is far more important than how often he attends church; to sit and listen to another man's own personal interpretation of God's divine will may not have any bearing on another's situation or circumstance. 
As it relates to Masonry, it is ridiculous to hear that someone copped an attitude about a Brother who didn't attend church. Masonry should be the putting away of petty differences in search of a Brotherhood free from the disharmony caused by such minor opinion diversity. Maybe we're just crazy out here 


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Mar 24, 2011)

Beathard said:


> ...I do not believe that all masons should be required to fit themselves into a bureaucratic organization called a church...
> ...The Grand Architect can be found in many places.


 
Well said, Brother.


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## S.Courtemanche (Mar 24, 2011)

jwhoff said:


> Every man's _*church*_ can only be attended within his heart. One who attends any specific Sunday-Go-2-Meeting franchise may be present and not attend his _*church*_ at any given service. Or he may. The point is, physical surroundings are not required for one to be in touch with his maker. Reflect upon your last close encounter with eternity. Could you ever have been closer to your maker in a physical building? Could you have thanked him (or her) any more for deliverance?
> 
> All said, one should not down-play organized religion. It is a necessity of civilization. It can and most often does great work for humanity. However, like the double edged sword, organized religion can be very dangerous in the hands of the power hungry. There is vast casum between leadership and control.



Jwhoff, I could not have said this any better (o:


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## tom268 (Mar 25, 2011)

fairmanjd said:


> that its not important what particular religion a brother is; but he should follow one and be active in it. I tend to agree with this.


 It was already said, that the brotherhood includes men from many religions. Not all of them know something like regular church services. Also, you cannot determine a man's devotion by looking at his church schedule. A man, who is bored to death in a church, but still attends to avoid stress with his wife, or who needs to get a good reputation in his neighborhood, has not much of a faith.

Even in my jurisdiction, which followes a strictly christian way of masonry, we do not ask about church, just about the faith of the candidate. Today, there are so many forms of christian spirituality, that does not follow church service, but private bible studies, christian meditation groups, home circles and so on, who may decide what is active faith and what is not?


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## wwinger (Apr 2, 2011)

fairmanjd said:


> "We don't care which plane you take; but it is important you be at the airport."



I suppose that using the word "church" could be offensive to a very small minority of Texans, however, I do believe that the investigation should delve into the petitioner's religious beliefs, to see that he does truly have belief and faith in the Diety. It is also an interesting exercise in religious tolerance to lead a person into discussing things that you yourself might disagree with.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Apr 2, 2011)

So the candidate has answered in the affirmative the required questions about his belief in Deity. What, exactly would be the point of further inquiry into the nature of his faith?


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## Zack (Apr 2, 2011)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> So the candidate has answered in the affirmative the required questions about his belief in Deity. What, exactly would be the point of further inquiry into the nature of his faith?



Exactly.  No further inquiry is needed.


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## wwinger (Apr 2, 2011)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> What, exactly would be the point of further inquiry into the nature of his faith?


In the case of one petitioner, his concept of Deity was based on a belief that trees were his 'God'. Yet the question relating to Deity on the petition was answered, 'Yes'. 

In another case, the petitioner left blank the question relating to Deity. This was not noticed until the petition was read in the lodge whereupon it was immediately referred back to the petitioner for completion. He of course answered the question, 'Yes'.

I firmly believe the investigators have a duty to inquire about a petitioner's beliefs. Granted they should do so in a manner that exhibits tolerance and should not be biased by their own beliefs. A man desirous of becoming a Mason will not be offended by objective inquiry. He should be proud to tell us about his faith and beliefs.

It is the duty of the investigator to look behind the questions and answers and make sure that the petitioner is someone we want as a brother, not just that he answered all the questions in the affirmative.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Apr 3, 2011)

wwinger said:


> In the case of one petitioner, his concept of Deity was based on a belief that trees were his 'God'...


 
As opposed to an invisible man who lives in the sky, among whose rare  earthly manifestations is that of a burning bush, and who expects his  followers to regularly engage in some pretty bizarre rituals involving  blood and human flesh?

You should probably read this - http://enlightenedawareness.wetpaint.com/page/The+Druids
taking special care to note the name of it's author, before you pass  judgment on people whose religious beliefs are significantly different  from your own. 

That you appear to consider such beliefs as somehow less than acceptable, _because of their nature, _is  exactly the reason such questions should not be asked, Brother. Yes,  it's entirely possible that the candidate is simply "a madman or a  fool", hearing voices coming from a stand of cottonwoods, but that's a  matter rather apart from earnestly held religious beliefs, no matter how  different they may be from our own.


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## wwinger (Apr 4, 2011)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> You should probably read this - http://enlightenedawareness.wetpaint...age/The+Druids taking special care to note the name of it's author,



I have looked at your recommended reading and find it to be "enlightening" to say the least. I must admit, however, that the author's name was not one with which I was previously familiar. I sought additional information on him and learned that his written contributions to Masonry are considerable, although not viewed as authoritative by everyone. (Brent Morris & Art de Hoya, also 33rd degree SR, have raised questions.)

For over 40 years now I have believed that Masonry required a mono-theistic belief of its initiates. Today I attempted to find support for that belief in the laws of the Grand Lodge of Texas, but could not. Perhaps I have unfairly judged those who believe in more than one God, (ie: trees as Gods). I hope not.

I was not a member of the investigating committee in either of the examples offered. One moved out of state before an investigation was done. The other was investigated, balloted upon and elected to the three degrees. I have spent a considerable amount of time with him since then and I think we have a reasonable understanding of each other's spiritual beliefs. In spite of the rather significant difference in those beliefs, we do respect each other's right to have his own beliefs and we have become good friends in spite of our differences.

My spiritual beliefs have always differed from those of the petitioners I have known, sometimes quite markedly. Yet, those differences, in over forty years as a Mason, have rarely led to any action on my part to exclude someone from Masonry. 

Still, the EA charge says, "If in the circle of your acquintance, you find someone desirous of being initiated into Masonry, be particularly attentive not to recommend him unless you are CONVINCED he will conform to the laws, customs and usages of the order; to the end that the honor, glory and reputation of the institution will be firmly established and the world at large convinced of its good effects." I can be "CONVINCED", but it usually takes more than a simple "yes" on the petition for that to take place.

I have found your posts to be generally insightful and reflective of a deep passion for Masonry. Most of the time, I agree with your views. This time, however, we have obvious differences. Your arguments are not going to change my view and I don't expect mine to change yours. It won't be the first time I've disagreed with a Brother and I am sure it won't be the last.


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## Beathard (Apr 7, 2011)

Its pretty easy to put the investigation question into a context, just ask "Upon what book would you like to take the obligation?"  If he doesn't understand the question, continue with "The Torah? Veda? Bible? or some other book?  We want to make sure that you have your book of faith present."  If it is a strange belief system, it will probably come up at this point.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Apr 8, 2011)

Beathard said:


> Its pretty easy to put the investigation question into a context, just ask "Upon what book would you like to take the obligation?"  If he doesn't understand the question, continue with "The Torah? Veda? Bible? or some other book?  We want to make sure that you have your book of faith present."  If it is a strange belief system, it will probably come up at this point.


 This presupposes that the candidate's religion has a volume of sacred law in printed-and-bound form. Not all do.


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## Beathard (Apr 8, 2011)

The 9 major monotheistic religions all have a sacred text. If the candidate does not believe in on of the 9, I would question his belief in deity as defined by masonry.

The 12 classical religions are:
Baha'i, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism. 

Three of these are polytheistic: Shinto, Hinduism, and Buddhism.

My understanding of the masonic requirement is a belief in a monotheistic deity. If the candidate is not on of the 9 major classical religions that has a sacred text I would want the investigation committee to  ask a few more questions.

How would an obligation be binding if not sworn on a sacred text?


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## Zack (Apr 8, 2011)

This thread started with the subject of "attending church" and has wandered afield.

I still maintain that whether or not I attend church or how often I attend is none of Freemasonry's business.


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## SWATFrog (Apr 8, 2011)

Zack said:
			
		

> This thread started with the subject of "attending church" and has wandered afield.
> 
> I still maintain that whether or not I attend church or how often I attend is none of Freemasonry's business.



I have to agree. There are periods in my life for either business or personal reasons I was not able to attend church the way my parents brought me up to. 

But that doesn't mean I lost my faith. I found other ways in my day I could pray and praise God


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## Beathard (Apr 8, 2011)

JohnnyFlotsam said:
			
		

> This presupposes that the candidate's religion has a volume of sacred law in printed-and-bound form. Not all do.


 
Grand Lodge of Texas Art. 397. (434). Religious Belief: A firm belief in the existence of God, the immortality of the soul, and the divine authenticity of the Holy Scriptures is indispensably necessary before a candidate Can be initiated, but this Grand Lodge does not presume to prescribe any canonical books or what part thereof are inspired. It is the policy of this Grand Lodge to permit a candidate whose religious persuasion is based upon other than the Holy Bible to be obligated up on the book of his chosen faith, and same maybe situated upon the Altar in front of the Holy Bible during the conferral of the 3Â° of Masonry. In which event, all esoteric references to "The Holy Bible" during the conferral of the degrees and the lessons appropriate thereto should be substituted with "The Book of your (my) Faith."

It  is pretty clear. Candidate has to have a belief in deity and a sacred book. I cannot locate Church attendance in the law book at all.


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## Benton (Apr 8, 2011)

Beathard said:


> The 9 major monotheistic religions all have a sacred text. If the candidate does not believe in on of the 9, I would question his belief in deity as defined by masonry.
> 
> The 12 classical religions are:
> Baha'i, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism.
> ...




What about deists? They don't have a sacred text as such, but they definitely believe in deity. 

And as to Hinduism being polytheistic, thats definitely up for debate. In my experience with practicing Hindus, it depends on the individual. A number of them consider the different Hindu 'gods' as subsets of the one true godhead, Brahman, sort of like Christians believe the trinity are all the same God. So, depending on what sect of Hinduism you are speaking of, they're just as polytheistic as Christianity.

I can't speak on Shinto or Buddhism, as I certainly have a lesser knowledge of those two.


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## Beathard (Apr 8, 2011)

OK, I understand your arguement Brother Benton. But Art. 397 says that there has to be a sacred book on which the obligation is taken. If there is no sacred book recognized by the candidate, what do we do? and is the obligation binding if they do not believe in that book?

Many of our forefathers were deists, but there are many types of deism. One is Christian Deism, in which the Bible is used.


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## Benton (Apr 8, 2011)

Ha, I'm not sure that I have an answer, particularly in regards to Grand Lodge Law, I was just being the devil's advocate.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Apr 8, 2011)

Beathard said:


> How would an obligation be binding if not sworn on a sacred text?


Here we go again...

Please cite the Masonic law that allows only some so-called "12 classical religions". 

Please explain how you claim the requisite authority, and moreover, the insight to judge another man's earnestly professed beliefs after he has stated an answer in the affirmative to "the question". 

Any trial lawyer will tell you that oath swearing on Bibles is absolutely no guarantee that the swearer will henceforth speak a word of truth. There is no magic in a book, however much it may be revered by a majority of those present. What counts is the _candidate's desire _to keep the promises he makes. Asking the candidate to make those promises on an object that is, _to him,_ of significant spiritual import is something we do for _his_ benefit, so that he may, in front "God and everybody", convey his sincerity in as solemn a manner as possible.

The man who made me a Mason was a Native American. At his I,P, and R he took his obligation upon an eagle feather. His people have no printed VSL. Their sacred law is passed down mouth-to-ear. Who are we to suggest that such a man is unfit to be made a Mason because his religion is not on your list, or because he simply wished to be obligated upon something that clearly had, for him, the same religious significance that you seem to attach only to books?


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## Beathard (Apr 8, 2011)

Never claimed to be an authority on law or religon. Never claimed that the 12 classical religons are the only ones. Most religons other than the classic 12, are derived from one of them.

I just cited the law book as it pertains to a sacred text. I can read, but never claimed to invent the english language either. It does state that a sacred text is required.

I am a card carrying native american. My tribe has not sworn on eagle feathers in a very, very long time, if ever. We actually traded items in a guarantee and reminder for committments. In fact the bible has been translated into our native language, Choctaw. And a methodist congregation is on our reservation. Most of us, Choctaws, that are masons take the obligation on the sacred text we believe in: The Bible.

What was said on this thread is: we have a duty as masons to attend church. This is not in the law book. The only requirements regarding religon are a belief in an unnamed deity and an obligation on a sacred book. I am not attempting to argue a point that is clearly written in the law. It does not take a lawyer to read it, but I am sure we can find one if required...

BTW, I did not write the law... Therefore it is not the importance "I" place on the books... It is grand lodge.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Apr 8, 2011)

Beathard said:


> BTW, I did not write the law... Therefore it is not the importance "I" place on the books... It is grand lodge.


 
It would probably surprise you, then, to learn that that particular passage, referring to "the divine authenticity of the holy scriptures" has not always been a part of the GL of Texas laws, and that it is somewhat of an "oddball" requirement, not being a part of most jurisdictions' ritual requirements. 

Setting aside the probably pointless observation that the world does not revolve around Texas, is it your assertion then, that "Volume of Sacred Law" must be interpreted in a completely literal (no pun intended) manner? Is it not possible, even preferable, that we interpret that term as referring symbolically to that collection of religious precepts that a man has chosen to live by, regardless of the form of that collection? If not, why not? Especially when so much of our teaching is exactly that; symbol and allegory.


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## Beathard (Apr 8, 2011)

Sure I believe that the Volume of Sacred Law could be symbolic, but the Grand Lodge doesn't.  The law states "situated upon the Altar in front of the Holy Bible during the conferral of the 3Â° of Masonry."  It is hard to put the symbolic text on the Altar.  I think it needs to be a little more concrete than that.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Apr 8, 2011)

Now you are being disingenuous. The requirement that "the Holy Bible" (which, accurately or not, is usually taken to mean a KJV Bible in most predominantly Christian jurisdictions) be open at all times upon the altar is something quite apart from that VSL upon which a candidate takes his obligation. Indeed, (and if I am not mistaken) there is wording that makes this abundantly clear. So, if we make exceptions for the candidate who follows Islam or Judaism, why not that of other religions? Why are you so uncomfortable with the idea that a candidate whose religion is not like yours (one with a book) could be made a Mason? When you can answer that one, we can take on the non-trivial issue of all the different, and often conflicting, versions of "the Holy Bible". 

There are a lot of religions in the world, Brother. I know of no Masonic precept that defines those which are "acceptable". Attempting to limit that list by some tortured contrivance as "it's got to have a book", is rather missing the point we're supposed to be learning.


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## Beathard (Apr 8, 2011)

I agree totally with you.  But the arguement, which I am starting to feel is a personal attack, is missing the point.  It is a violation of masonic law to not have a book for the obligation.  We as Texas Masons have to have one by masonic law.  So, why don't you propose a resolution to change the law to be more masonic.  The deadline is May 15th for this year.


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## Heirophant (Jun 24, 2012)

For the record, due to much private inquiry, I'd like to take this opportunity to say I am a firm believer in our Lord And Saviour Jesus Christ. My original military dog-tags identify me as a "NON-DENOM CHRISTIAN" and I prefer the King James Bible over many others although I've grown quite a liking to The New American Bible. I'd also like to state for the record that although I've personally had negative experiences in church as a kid, I've seen what a positive impact regular church attendance can make for many people from all walks of life. Since my original post regarding 'church attendance', (whilst in search of genuine fellowship) I ended up officially joining a very friendly Methodist Community in Texarkana Texas named Williams Memorial Methodist. Although I no longer live in Texarkana Texas, I do my best to keep in contact with members of Williams Memorial as well as many of my brethren at my masonic lodge. Thanks for all the input. It's good to know I can go online to a secure website for Masons and get an honest opinion on just about anything  thanks again ya'll.


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## Cigarzan (Jun 24, 2012)

I like going to church but I gotta say, given the choice, I prefer sitting under an old oak tree with my Bible!


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## cutter2001 (Jun 27, 2012)

I may be wrong, but I was taught that two things not to discuss at Lodge, or in fellowship with other masons. Was their personal religion, or their politics. Those two things being the quickest way to bring forth divisions and strife within the brotherhood. I have followed that wisdom in my business life as well, and have found it has served me well.


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## Ashlar (Jun 29, 2012)

I do not attend church as I do not care for organized religion . I have found more hatred , backbiting and gossiping within the walls of churches than I have found most anywhere else . And I do not hold it against any man who does not wish to attend church .

I find God in everything around me . Nature is my church , it is where I am closer to God , not some building .


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## jonesvilletexas (Jun 30, 2012)

I may not attend 'church' (due to past negative experiences) but since when is 'attending church' a requirement for 'mutual respect' amongst Masons? 
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve and mammon. 

I am not preaching! Just a question to you. Why do we go to church? To please man or God.


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## Ashlar (Jun 30, 2012)

We have on our Lodge Investigation reports these questions....

 1) Do you believe in a Supreme being ? 
2) Do You attend church ? 
3) If Yes , which Church ?
 4) How often do you attend church ? 

When I am chairman of an investigation committee I only ask question ONE and draw a line through the other questions . At first the lodge members questioned my motives for crossing out the other questions , but now they leave me alone . I told them it was none of our business as to what church they attend , how often or do not attend at all .

If they can answer YES to a belief in a Supreme Being , then I feel I do not need to question them further . Attending church services does not guarantee one's belief in Deity .


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## Nicoli Magan Beukes (Mar 19, 2021)

Beathard said:


> I believe that church in the original connotation was the fellowship of believers. It was not tied to a building or place. I have fellowship with people that have the same beliefs as me all of the time, therefore I am always in church, but rarely in a bureaucratic building.
> 
> Johnstone provides the following seven characteristics of churches:
> 1) claim universality, include all members of the society within their ranks, and have a strong tendency to equate "citizenship" with "membership"
> ...


How do I make contact with the freemasons in Namibia because I want to join


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## Nicoli Magan Beukes (Mar 19, 2021)

How do I get HOLD of the Freemanson members in Namibia, Windhoek because I have been trying to join


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## Winter (Mar 19, 2021)

Looks like I only see a postal address for them.

*DISTRICT GRAND LODGE OF NAMIBIA*
*District Grand Master*
Alan L.E. Simmonds

*District Grand Secretary*
Gernot Piepmeyer

*Postal Address*
PO Box 81774
Olympia
Windhoek
9000
Namibia


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## Nicoli Magan Beukes (Mar 19, 2021)

Thank you so much


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## Nicoli Magan Beukes (Mar 19, 2021)

How do I get HOLD of the Illuminati in Namibia, Windhoek
I want to join them also


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## Winter (Mar 19, 2021)

Nicoli Magan Beukes said:


> How do I get HOLD of the Illuminati in Namibia, Windhoek
> I want to join them also


The Illuminati has been gone for 200 years. And if you want to join them, you do not belong in Freemasonry. 

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## Nicoli Magan Beukes (Mar 19, 2021)

thanks then I will rather stay and join the Freemasons


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## Nicoli Magan Beukes (Mar 19, 2021)

Where are you from Brother


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