# Just curious...



## drmrboi927 (Jun 5, 2016)

Before I got raised and not too long after, a Brother said you're going to see and hear things that you may not like but don't get discouraged or lose focus. 
 My question for you all is what have you seen or experienced that may have made you "uncomfortable" or almost "lose focus"?


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## Companion Joe (Jun 5, 2016)

What you ask is unanswerable without context.


For example, in my own case, the thing that makes me most uncomfortable about Masonry is when I'm served a plate with my different foods touching.


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 5, 2016)

Bwhaha

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## ChristopherNance (Jun 5, 2016)

I find it discouraging when a veteran member of the lodge takes it upon himself to voice his opinions and viewpoints, interrupting brethren and talking over them. There seems to be a couple in every lodge that think that all ideas must agree with theirs. 

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## Warrior1256 (Jun 5, 2016)

So far......nothing.


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## drmrboi927 (Jun 5, 2016)

Thanks. I think I get an idea of what I could possibly run into. 


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## Companion Joe (Jun 5, 2016)

I'm glad _you_ do because to the original question, _I'm_ still not sure exactly what you're talking about..


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## dfreybur (Jun 6, 2016)

drmrboi927 said:


> Before I got raised and not too long after, a Brother said you're going to see and hear things that you may not like but don't get discouraged or lose focus.
> My question for you all is what have you seen or experienced that may have made you "uncomfortable" or almost "lose focus"?



Sounds to me like the Brother telling you that was enough of a fundie that he wonders why he's among us.  Very much his issue not yours.

That or he meant that some of the Brothers take our rules against talking religion or politics in our "meetings" as only applying to tiled meetings so you'll hear inappropriate comments at the meals.

One of the pieces of wisdom taught to me by Dad - "God gave us two ears and a noodle.  One ear for in, one ear for out.  The noodle is to decide what sticks in the middle."

Some portion of the stuff I hear at lodge meals I let it flow in one ear and out the other.


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## Jason A. Mitchell (Jun 6, 2016)

drmrboi927 said:


> Before I got raised and not too long after, a Brother said you're going to see and hear things that you may not like but don't get discouraged or lose focus.
> My question for you all is what have you seen or experienced that may have made you "uncomfortable" or almost "lose focus"?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry Pro



In no particular order


Masons believing Mackey
Masons not believing Gould, Carr, and Knoop
Masons mistaking legends and myths as Fact, or put more simply Masons not believing Jay Kinney
Masons putting all the right books on their shelves, but not putting all the right books in their heads
Masons misconstruing education and esoteric with occult sciences
Masons monetizing the Craft for personal benefit
Masons blogging purely for Masonic fame and recognition


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## Jason A. Mitchell (Jun 6, 2016)

Oh and Masons not reading Nobly Born and the Compasses and Cross by Stephen Dafoe.


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 7, 2016)

Of all the people u mentioned Mackey is the only person ive ever heard of

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## Jason A. Mitchell (Jun 8, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Of all the people u mentioned Mackey is the only person ive ever heard of
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



Oh man, you're missing the good stuff.

In the US alone we've got the talents of Bullock, B. Jones, Kendall, Vaughan, J.F. Newton, MacNulty, Coil, de Hoyos, Morris, Davis, Kinney, Normand, and Hutchins and yet every gives all the love to Mackey. 

And then, once you leave the US you get Knoop, Jones, Gould, Hammer, Carr, Mollier, ACF Jackson, Churton, Stevenson, Hamill, and more...

Mackey is good, so you know what everyone in the US took as truth, when it was anything but.


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## Jason A. Mitchell (Jun 8, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> If only we had a Masonic Science we would be able to move beyond belief and disbelief.



Nice play on words, but whereas Masonry is a system of morality, that is to say, Masonry deals in the realms immeasurable by science and indeed science won't measure belief and disbelief are essential to our art.


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## Brother JC (Jun 8, 2016)

Jason, when did Brother Hammer expatriate?


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## Jason A. Mitchell (Jun 8, 2016)

Brother JC said:


> Jason, when did Brother Hammer expatriate?



Wrong Hammer. I'm referring to Douglas Hammer, the masonic researcher. Not Andrew Hammer.


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## Ressam (Jun 8, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> "The definition of Freemasonry that it is "a *science of morality*, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols,"
> *has been so often quoted*, that, were it not for its beauty, it would become wearisome. But this definition
> contains the exact principle that has just been enunciated. Freemasonry is a science..."
> 
> ...


Greetings, Mr.James!
It's a lil bit strange, IMHO, that you're confusing the definition.
It's written: "Science of morality". Morality. Morality is related with -- good/evil, human behavior, spirituality, etc. Shortly -- soul. We are not -- "Robots", Mr.James! The word "science" is wrong word to define Freemasonry, IMHO! Do you mean that Freemasonry is "Natural" Science? Definitely -- no. It's wrong. "Social" Science? Maybe. But, that means that: if it's social, it's kinda "theory". It may be "false". Without strict "proofs". Can Freemasonry "be wrong"?


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## Jason A. Mitchell (Jun 8, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> "The definition of Freemasonry that it is "a *science of morality*, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols,"
> *has been so often quoted*, that, were it not for its beauty, it would become wearisome. But this definition
> contains the exact principle that has just been enunciated. Freemasonry is a science..."
> 
> ...



Well... Mackay is inadmissible here for two reasons. First, it's Mackey, and while he is well known, he's not a well of masonic knowledge. Mackey was a compiler of biases and masonic folk beliefs, not a cataloger of facts (though to give he credit he did manage to do quite a bit by accident). Second, Mackey isn't ritual. I'm taking a guess you're a mainstream American Mason, meaning you practice Webb Ritual (standard PA disclaimers apply), and Webb ritual is pretty consistent in its definition of Masonry - as system of _morality_ veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols. Our ritual doesn't say science.

But let's assume it does and use your QBL example. The Jewish Kabbalah and the Christian Cabbala are systems and models of esoteric biblical interpretation. The Hermetic Qabbalah which is what I think you're referring to is a mystical and theurgical and theosophical tool for inquiry, which can be likened to a science, but as we know from our ritual, science doesn't enter into it.

But anyway, this all stems from your comment that science would dispell belief and disbelief, as applied to Masonry. Using the example of the QBL, it is predicated upon belief, so it isn't a science that settles it the divide you highlighted, and as you assert.


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 8, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> The Kabbalah is an example of a moral science - a reproducible technique for altering the consciousness and behavior of various intelligences.
> 
> Neurolinguistic Programming is another more limited example.
> 
> Feng Shui is yet another example.


The only real way to "alter concience" is to admi ister drugs

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## Glen Cook (Jun 8, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> The only real way to "alter concience" is to admi ister drugs
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


I'm a lawyer. What' good is a conscience to me ?


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## dfreybur (Jun 8, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> The only real way to "alter concience" is to admi ister drugs



Prayer, mediation, education, contemplation all work well for me.  As does NLP.

And for that matter deciding to fall asleep or wake up.  I've never quite gotten how it works to decide to wake up but I do that frequently.  Some sort of twilight dozing state where I am half aware half asleep.


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## dfreybur (Jun 8, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> If only we had a Masonic Science we would be able to move beyond belief and disbelief.



Hmm.  Statistical analysis of moral methods can be the subject of observed experiments.  It's done in micro-economics in college laboratories.  We should be able to devise similar experiments for moral methods.

Science does deal with statistical results.  The naysayers love to hammer on that and fail to understand what statistical results mean.

To the extent that Masonic science is in fact a science, belief or disbelief is irrelevant.  If I toss you off a cliff I can calculate quite exactly what your chances of floating back to the point I pushed you from (the chance is not zero, really) but you will definitely fall without regard to your belief or disbelief in gravity.


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## Jason A. Mitchell (Jun 8, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> Better perhaps not to rely upon (or disbelieve) authorities but to test their statements - as advised by Gautama the Buddha



True, but tell me this: since when is Mackey an authority except for the licensing of his own name and works for profit to himself and grand lodges?  Your belief in Mackey as a good source for Masonic information, kinda disproves your own point, no?


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## coachn (Jun 8, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> If only we had a Masonic Science we would be able to move beyond belief and disbelief.


Unfortunately, engineering is not for everyone...


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## coachn (Jun 8, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> ...And for the first time I understood why Masonry has such dire traditional penalties for betraying the secrets.


What Secrets?



JamestheJust said:


> Imagine if unworthy people could control the morality of others.  Consider historical examples.


I don't have to imagine it.  I simple look around.  The evidence is pretty clear.


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 8, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> "The definition of Freemasonry that it is "a *science of morality*, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols,"


I've always liked this.


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## Jason A. Mitchell (Jun 9, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> I've always liked this.



Well... if scientific illuminism is your thing, you might enjoy this. 

I did and do.


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 9, 2016)

Jason A. Mitchell said:


> Well... if scientific illuminism is your thing, you might enjoy this.
> 
> I did and do.


It was very interesting!


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## Bro Asad (Jun 12, 2016)

drmrboi927 said:


> Before I got raised and not too long after, a Brother said you're going to see and hear things that you may not like but don't get discouraged or lose focus.
> My question for you all is what have you seen or experienced that may have made you "uncomfortable" or almost "lose focus"?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry Pro



Plenty. Masonry is much more expansive than those situations though. 
I hope...


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## acjohnson53 (Jun 13, 2016)

He musta got thrown from the goat to far and hit his head, and as far as your food touching PM at least you got served with a silver spoon, with some kool aid..


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## acjohnson53 (Jun 13, 2016)

Did ya'll get another secret I didn't know about. pssst now I got to start all over again...


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## Joe Mazzotta (Jun 27, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> One of the local lodges has a couple of brethren that work as a team to try to change the lodge to fit with their own rather narrow view of Masonry.  They are easily offended and do not seem to notice when other brethren are offended by their heavy-handed and transparent attempted takeovers.  Fortunately they only make an assault every year or so and we do not see them at other times.


The WM should be able to deal with these idiots.


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 27, 2016)

Jason A. Mitchell said:


> Well... if scientific illuminism is your thing, you might enjoy this.
> 
> I did and do.


Very interesting.


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 27, 2016)

Joe Mazzotta said:


> The WM should be able to deal with these idiots.


Sounds good.


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## BullDozer Harrell (Jul 26, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> "The definition of Freemasonry that it is "a *science of morality*, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols,"
> *has been so often quoted*, that, were it not for its beauty, it would become wearisome. But this definition
> contains the exact principle that has just been enunciated. Freemasonry is a science..."
> 
> ...


Mackey's original words were...'a peculiar system of morality....'

Freemasons over the years have changed wording to suit their needs.
I've seen added, 'a Science of Morality' and even 'a progressive Science of Morality'.

However it just might be that 'peculiar system' is simply the best.



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## Warrior1256 (Jul 27, 2016)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> Mackey's original words were...'a peculiar system of morality....'
> 
> Freemasons over the years have changed wording to suit their needs.
> I've seen added, 'a Science of Morality' and even 'a progressive Science of Morality'.
> ...


I agree with you.


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## coachn (Jul 27, 2016)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> Mackey's original words were...'a peculiar system of morality....'
> 
> Freemasons over the years have changed wording to suit their needs.
> I've seen added, 'a Science of Morality' and even 'a progressive Science of Morality'.
> ...



And the word does not mean today what it meant years ago...


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