# Looking For Some Opinions On A Situation



## KFerguson84 (Feb 20, 2011)

Hello Brothers,

I ran into a situation recently that has troubled me very much and I just wanted to get some other opinions or see if anyone else has had a similar experience. 

Before I became a Mason, I had joined the Knights of Columbus (I am a practicing Catholic). This was not so much for me, but for my soon to be father-in-law since he was a member. I have nothing against the Knights, but I did not intend to participate fully as an officer or anything. My desire was to simply be a card carrying member to have a bond with my father-in-law. 

A few months after being initiated into the Knights, I became a Mason. Masonry was in my family and was something that I had always loved and wanted to be a part of. I saw no qualms with this since it did not say anywhere in my Knights of Columbus initiation that I couldn't join other organizations. Now, just to clarify, I love Freemasonry. I would have left the Knights in a second to become a Mason if Masonry had such a requirement, but obviously they do not. 

Anyways, a few months after becoming a Mason, I get an email from the local KofC Council asking me if I was a Mason and if I was I would have to terminate my membership in the Knights since the two organizations were "mutually exclusive". There was nothing in Freemasonry that prevented me from being a KofC (especially since I wasn't very active) and there was nothing that prevented me from being a Catholic man. If anything, Freemasonry encourages me to practice my faith. 

I guess what I am looking or here is has anyone else on here been a victim of discrimination simply because you are a Freemason? How did you handle it? I appreciate any responses that anyone might like to give. 

Kyle Ferguson
Kingsbury Lodge #466
Free & Accepted Masons of Pennsylvania
Dunmore, PA 18512


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## Ordsman (Feb 20, 2011)

I have a friend who was in two lodges and had to resign from one to join KofC, I guess they only knew about the one lodge.  I knew that to join one must leave a lodge to Mountie KofC, but I didn't know they would not allow you to join a lodge later.  I know there has been a papal bull saying masonry as practiced in the US is "mostly harmless.". If I were in the situation, and it would not adversely affect my family or career, I'd let them decide if I could be a member, then I'd tell them where to stick I as I resigned.  Mind you if the lodge had some silly rule like this, I'd do the same thing.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Feb 20, 2011)

You think that the KoC thing has anything to do with the Catholic Church's opinion of Freemasonry??? Just Saying.

Just wait for the reaction you'll get if you ever petition the York Rite...


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## robert leachman (Feb 20, 2011)

Vatican II says it's OK for a Catholic to be a Mason.
Not sure about KoC


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Feb 20, 2011)

robert leachman said:


> Vatican II says it's OK for a Catholic to be a Mason.
> Not sure about KoC


 
I do know for a fact that even if the "Vatican II" says that Freemasonry is "okay", there are several Priests still pursuing their parishioners who are members. I can verify this {privately} as recently as a month ago in Louisiana. Also if I am not mistaken, there has been some heated conversation between the KoC and KT... All of this of course is ancient history...


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## MikeMay (Feb 20, 2011)

Since your looking for opinions, my humble opinion is that you pursue where your heart leads you.  From your description you said you wanted to join the KoC because of your desire bond with your father-in-law and there is nothing wrong with that, but if your real desire is in masonry, then you already have your answer.  However, that is just my opinion.


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## tom268 (Feb 20, 2011)

As far as I know, and I'm a catholic too, no papal bull ever stated, that masonry is OK or "mostly harmless". The POW of Rome just changed in two small aspects. The name freemasonry was deleted out of the Codex, so that we are together with "all those organizations" that are not OK, but no longer named explicitly.

And second, and for the more important aspect, you are no longer in a grieve sin as a catholic mason, and therefore excluded from the sacrament, but only in a pardonable sin. Your own consciousness shall be the rule, as it is the voice of G-D.

I think, what you experience is twofold. It is a matter on how hardliners view the canonical codex, as I guess, the hardliners make it up to the higher echelons in the KofC, and second, it is politics, as they are two similar organizations, fishing in the same pond. And that usually leads to jealousy.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Feb 20, 2011)

tom268 said:


> As far as I know, and I'm a catholic too, no papal bull ever stated, that masonry is OK or "mostly harmless". The POW of Rome just changed in two small aspects. The name freemasonry was deleted out of the Codex, so that we are together with "all those organizations" that are not OK, but no longer named explicitly.
> 
> And second, and for the more important aspect, you are no longer in a grieve sin as a catholic mason, and therefore excluded from the sacrament, but only in a pardonable sin. Your own consciousness shall be the rule, as it is the voice of G-D.
> 
> I think, what you experience is twofold. It is a matter on how hardliners view the canonical codex, as I guess, the hardliners make it up to the higher echelons in the KofC, and second, it is politics, as they are two similar organizations, fishing in the same pond. And that usually leads to jealousy.


 
This is almost exactly to what I was referencing. I know of recent incidents where masons were told that they could not receive the Holy Sacrament unless they removed themselves from the order... Obviously Freemasonry after all of these hundreds of years is still not "okay" in the eyes of the Church.


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## cemab4y (Feb 20, 2011)

(I am not a Roman Catholic). The current pope, is probably the most anti-Masonic pope, to sit in the chair of St. Peter, for a very long time. You can do a google search on Cardinal Ratzinger (his previous name), and read all about his feelings on the Craft. Catholics who are Masons, can be denied communion. This is a sad reality. I will pray for you, and may the Great Architect of the Universe guide your steps.


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## KFerguson84 (Feb 20, 2011)

Bro. Stewart said:
			
		

> You think that the KoC thing has anything to do with the Catholic Church's opinion of Freemasonry??? Just Saying.
> 
> Just wait for the reaction you'll get if you ever petition the York Rite...



I'm positive that it has something to do with that. I find the church's position on this preposterous. Myself and another Catholic Mason were discussing this topic previously and he agreed. If Freemasonry came out and said it was strictly Catholic, the church would have no problem. The Catholic church does not like it's parishioners associating with people of other faiths and this is a prime example.


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## usmc05 (Feb 20, 2011)

I am a Catholic and a Freemason. I belong to the KofC and to the york and scottish rite. Never had any problems. I love my faith and Masonry. If I had to choose I would stay a Mason though. Pray and seek light is all I can say.


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## LRG (Feb 20, 2011)

I was born and raised Catholic, received all the sacraments except the last(not looking forward to that on). I got away from religion and moved more to Faith. I believe in the Almighty Father and His Son Jesus Christ. But if a preacher-common man- was to attempt to deny me the Euchrist, well how would he be and what would he deny himself in the longrun? 
The vatican is one of the wealthiest organizations in the world, but how many hospitals and healthcare groups do they have, in which they support, all for free toward human kind?
I know what the craft offers to humanity, but I don't know about the Catholic Religion (none).
If your a Master Mason, how much evil have you been exposed to? NONE. We are men of one GOD under one Heaven and when we open are doors to sick children, we can care less of what church if any, they belong to, only that they are a human being.
My dad tried to by insurance from the KoC, he has been apracticing Catholic and sunday mass goer, but he was denied and told that it is only for Knight of Columbus. Humm. So you can belong to the Catholic Church but you can not purchase its programs. As they built the sacred calf, lined it with the finest materials known to man, they then raised it above their shoulders and praised it and as Catholics, we have done the same thing to a common man-the pope-.


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## fairmanjd (Feb 21, 2011)

My Dad was a Knight and had many good friends he knew to be Masons. They all got along great. All that being said, we were, at the time, members of a pretty laid back parish (Immaculate Conception of Denton, TX.


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## Dave in Waco (Feb 21, 2011)

I would say follow Brother Tom's advice.  He sounds like he's pretty knowledgable about both organizations.  The KoC that I know don't seem to hold anything against Masons.  I think a lot of it comes down to the person.  I know the Catholic Church has long had an axe to grind against Freemasons.  Most of it came during a time when the Church was under attack from different groups that had left the Catholic faith.  But from what I've seen, the hate from the KoC come from a lot of the same sources most anti-Masonic hatred comes from.  

I will say this, every tyrantical ruler has outlawed Freemasonry in the past few centuries.  Some make outragious claims against Freemasonry, but it's all for the same reason.  Freemasonry embraces free thought, and free thought is a dangerous thing to have when someone is trying to control a group.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Feb 21, 2011)

usmc05 said:


> I am a Catholic and a Freemason. I belong to the KofC and to the york and scottish rite. Never had any problems. I love my faith and Masonry. If I had to choose I would stay a Mason though. Pray and seek light is all I can say.


 


fairmanjd said:


> My Dad was a Knight and had many good friends he knew to be Masons. They all got along great. All that being said, we were, at the time, members of a pretty laid back parish (Immaculate Conception of Denton, TX.



I will certainly admit that not *All* of the Catholic Church is against Freemasonry. It does seem that some priests and officials are more vocal against the fraternity than others. I am simply making reference to those who are strongly opposed and the ties between the KoC and the Church. I am certainly not one to get into a religious debate with anyone, because I feel that no one denomination or religious belief is more superior than another.


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## KFerguson84 (Feb 21, 2011)

Bro. Stewart said:
			
		

> I will certainly admit that not All of the Catholic Church is against Freemasonry. It does seem that some priests and officials are more vocal against the fraternity than others. I am simply making reference to those who are strongly opposed and the ties between the KoC and the Church. I am certainly not one to get into a religious debate with anyone, because I feel that no one denomination or religious belief is more superior than another.



I completely agree with you, Brother Stewart. My father is a Scottish Protestant and my mother is an Irish Catholic. Both sides are very proud of their heritage so even though I was raised Catholic, I was always taught by my parents that no religion is superior. Just believe in a God, be a peaceful person, and be yourself. Sometimes I feel as though my own religion doesn't tolerate that belief. I think that is why I have such a strong attraction to Masonry. I value knowledge and free thought very much and Freemasonry is the only place outside academia where those two things are valued so highly.


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## davidterrell80 (Feb 21, 2011)

Over the last two years, in pursuit of my masters in ancient and classical history, I'm made a couple of friends who are professors at American Catholic University--both Jesuits. I'll be seeing them later this week and will bring up the Craft. 

We shall see what their opinion will be.


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## KFerguson84 (Feb 21, 2011)

davidterrell80 said:
			
		

> Over the last two years, in pursuit of my masters in ancient and classical history, I'm made a couple of friends who are professors at American Catholic University--both Jesuits. I'll be seeing them later this week and will bring up the Craft.
> 
> We shall see what their opinion will be.



I look forward to your response. The Jesuits are known to be the more liberal and highly educated branch of the Catholic Church so it would be interesting to hear they're opinions on the matter.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Feb 22, 2011)

Prayers for our Brother who has found himself in this uncomfortable position are the best thing we can offer. The RCC's views on Freemasonry are misinformed, at best, but bashing the institution that is central to his faith isn't going to make his predicament any easier to resolve. A decision WRT the Knights of Columbus might be a little easier to make, but wouldn't relish having to make that one either.

Brother Ferguson,
Please know that I feel for you and the conflict you are suffering now. Consider your tools, Craftsman. Choose and employ those that might best be employed here. You, and more precisely, your conscience, will bear the the most significant results of your decisions. Others (family, friends, church, other organizations), not so much. So choose the path that squares with your conscience and step off with conviction.


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## AnthonyBolding (Feb 22, 2011)

Think of it this way. Masonry encourages you to practice your faith but this other organization discriminates you if you are. If masonry is your passion then do it


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## owls84 (Feb 22, 2011)

Troll Note: This is a very great discussion and I have actually learned a ton about a topic I knew a "little" about but the knowledge that has been shared is awesome. Makes me proud to be a staffer on the site. Thanks to all that have shared. I know that others that are silent have learned something as well.


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## Ordsman (Feb 24, 2011)

Sorry about my atrocious grammar, my iPhone isn't great for forums, to me at least.  If I remember correctly, pope John Paul, I believe put out the papal bull regarding American craft masonry in the '70's.  Maybe I am wrong, but I seem to recall learning about that a few months ago on the history channel, for what that's worth.  That being said, I am not catholic, nor do I proclaim to be an expert on the catholic church.  I have deep respect for the church however.  I have seen them do many great and wondrous things, and help many people.  I truly believe that they have requirements like these because as a whole, they are trying to save their membership.  The problem comes when a man thinks he can tell me what organization I can be a member of.  I am a grown man, if I want to join an organization, I will deal with the consequences.  I may be expelled from other organizations, the lodge for instance has this right.  But no man may tell me I cannot be a believer because I belong to an organization.  I have an issue with masonry being a pardonable sin, and not a grievous sin, because who can one sin trump another in the eyes of god?  Cannot all sin be forgiven by the Supreme Architect?  Ultimately the issue, for me, is freedom of choice.  If masonry told me I couldn't be a member of another group, I would decide where I need to stand and tell the other to pound sand.  Being as hard headed as I am, it would probably be the one that made the challenge.  Take that for what it's worth.


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## coachn (Feb 25, 2011)

KFerguson84 said:


> ... My desire was to simply be a card carrying member to have a bond with my father-in-law.
> ...Masonry was in my family and was something that I had always loved and wanted to be a part of. ... I would have left the Knights in a second to become a Mason if Masonry had such a requirement, but obviously they do not.
> 
> Anyways, a few months after becoming a Mason, I get an email from the local KofC Council asking me ... to terminate my membership in the Knights since the two organizations were "mutually exclusive". ...


Brother,

It's clear where your heart is on this. Should you truly care to keep your membership with the KofC, I recommend you respond to their e-mail in writing (through certified mail) with a query asking specifically what KofC rules and/or laws put the two organizations into a "mutually exclusive" mode. This will help clarify some of what they are using to justify their request to you. I also suggest that you CC (on paper) anyone above this "council" so that their actions are known to others outside their cloistered world and include all others who have influence over or with them.

The unfortunate aspect of such actions is that you are already a target on their radar and hence your participation in the organization from this point on will be "different" in respect to how some members with interact with you. This sounds like a personal problem with some of the more influencial council members.

I don't know how the KofC operates. If it is possible to move your membership to another KofC that is "Masonic-friendly", you may want to go that route, if it would help.

Good luck Brother.

Bro. Coach N


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## Pacotj (Feb 25, 2011)

Hello. 

I was a k of c and yes, you can not be a k of c and a mason, it is in the book one gets when you take your first degree. 

Also in the aplication they ask  you if you belong to  a secret society. 

Altough I dont feel freemasonry is a secret society.


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## KFerguson84 (Mar 3, 2011)

Pacotj said:
			
		

> Hello.
> 
> I was a k of c and yes, you can not be a k of c and a mason, it is in the book one gets when you take your first degree.
> 
> ...



I remember receiving the book but I don't recall it saying that I could not become a Freemason. It may have said something in vague language about joining organizations against the church but Masonry is not against the church nor is it explicitly named in the K of C booklet. 

Masonry is far from a secret society. The US Government keeps far more secrets than Masonry does. Does this mean I can never work for the government or hold political office because there are things that the government doesn't disclose to the Catholic Church? Also, there is no requirement to believe in a Supreme Being to work for the government. Masonry has such a requirement. It seems to me that Masonry should not be a target of the church when it is more open than the church itself or any other world government for that matter.


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## vanderson78102 (Mar 3, 2011)

I know of at least one member of KoC that approached me about become a mason.  He told me that KoC forbids its members from joining the lodge.  I would assume it is because of the old animosity the church held toward us.  

My advice would be to do what you think is right for you.  None of us can tell you what to do.


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## Bill Lins (Mar 3, 2011)

That's funny- we have a couple of Brethren in our Lodge who are also KC's- never has been a problem around here.


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## KFerguson84 (Mar 4, 2011)

I will remain with Masonry. That is where my heart is. Thanks for all of the responds to this thread. Great discussion.


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## david918 (Mar 4, 2011)

I found this on another forum.
Please fell free to use this if in an argument on this subject.

A few years ago I was in an argument on 'Christian Forums' about KoC where a catholic Priest was castigating Freemasonry and giving a list of all its evils.

O gave a list of Priciples which I said was from my Lodge

--------------------------------
Charity - Our tenetts teaches us to “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” Members of the Freemasons show love for their neighbors by conducting food drives and donating the food to local soup kitchens and food pantries, by volunteering at Special Olympics, and by supporting, both spiritually and materially, mothers who choose life for their babies. Knights recognize that our mission, and our faith in God, compels us to action. There is no better way to experience love and compassion than by helping those in need, a call we answer every day.

Unity – None of us is as good as all of us. Members of the Freemasons all know that – together – we can accomplish far more than any of us could individually. So we stick together…we support one another. That doesn’t mean that we always agree or that there is never a difference of opinion. It does mean that – as a Freemason – you can count on the support and encouragement of your brothers as you work to make life better in your community.

Fraternity – We provide assistance to the widows and children left behind when the family breadwinner died – often prematurely. The Order has programs that continue to do this today, as do individual Freemasons, who last year gave more than 10 million hours of their time to assist sick and/or disabled members and their families. In the freemasons, we watch out for and take care of one another.

Patriotism – Members of the Freemasons, be they Americans, Canadians, Mexicans, Cubans, Filipinos, Poles, or Dominicans, are patriotic citizens. We are proud of our devotion to God and country, and believe in standing up for both. Whether it’s in public or private, the Freemasons remind the world that they support their nations and are amongst the greatest citizens.
--------------------------

He went on to castigate every word of these principles. giving intellectual reasons why there was evil in each point raised.

I then confessed that this was actually from KoC web site
http://www.kofc.org/un/en/about/principles/index.html
And all I had done was change the words 'Knights of Columbus' to 'Freemasons'.

__________________


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## Beathard (Mar 4, 2011)

Typical. A freemason tricking a priest. That's evil. Evilly funny. Did he respond?


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## Benton (Mar 4, 2011)

I pull the old switcheroo when defending Masonry quite a bit. It seems to be one of the most effective means of doing it. Pretty much any point anti-Masons bring up against us is either a) a flat out lie, or b) true of hundreds of other organizations in the world, but the other organizations don't get damned for it. Thanks for contributing that Brother Broman.


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## jwardl (Mar 4, 2011)

A sad situation indeed. The only way such a decision from the KoC Council makes sense to me is if they deem other faiths to be illegitimate. Does anyone know if such is the case?


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## Beathard (Mar 4, 2011)

The catholic church has killed people for not being catholic. It is a 2000 year old tradition of non-tolerance.


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## jwardl (Mar 4, 2011)

That's a bit harsh, brother. Many things change over time.


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## Benton (Mar 4, 2011)

Beathard said:


> The catholic church has killed people for not being catholic. It is a 2000 year old tradition of non-tolerance.


 
That's harsh. Things like the Inquisition were certainly terrible, but things have changed since then.


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## Beathard (Mar 4, 2011)

Yes I thought so too. That is until this thread started. Twenty years ago I attended a catholic church. I was asked to give up masonry or the church. I attend a Methodist church now. I thought the catholic church was getting better, then this thread started. Sorry for the harsh statement, but come on. What are they doing if not being intolerant. When the church stops offering good council and advice what is it?  When they say do this or else your out, what are they doing?  Have they changed that much or are we still being persecuted? Am I missing something?

---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 PM ----------

Once again sorry for entering my religious beliefs into a Masonic discussion. I was told to make a choice many years ago by the catholic church. I made it. It is very difficult to keep my mouth shut when I read or hear this type of situation. I'll shut up now.


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## Benton (Mar 4, 2011)

To be fair, we do that as well. We don't allow atheists. I wouldn't change that at all, but that could certainly be perceived as intolerance on our part, if you were on the other side of the fence. We don't allow women in our lodge. Are we inherently intolerant misogynists? Note that I'm not saying we are, but it's good to remember that point of view certainly shades things differently.

One man's intolerance is another man's principle. 

I have heard some Christians complain about Masonry because we allow members of other religions. I know how absurd this is; they aren't complaining about the Lion's Club or Rotary. All the same, if they truly feel our freedom of religion is a bad thing, I can't argue against that. Are they being intolerant of Masonry? Perhaps. But it is what it is. They're allowed to believe as they wish, no matter how misguided I may think it.


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## Beathard (Mar 4, 2011)

Agreed. Very good points.


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## coachn (Mar 5, 2011)

Brother,

I found that MS Masons are very tolerant of atheists and females.  In fact, many of us are very accepting of them.   Some of us actually marry the latter of the two.  

The only thing we don't tolerate or accept is them in our tyled Lodges.  That's not a bad thing!


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## Benton (Mar 5, 2011)

coachn said:


> Brother,
> 
> I found that MS Masons are very tolerant of atheists and females.  In fact, many of us are very accepting of them.   Some of us actually marry the latter of the two.
> 
> The only thing we don't tolerate or accept is them in our tyled Lodges.  That's not a bad thing!



Brother, I think you missed my point. 

The fact that we don't allow them into our tyled lodges could, in itself, be construed as intolerant. Doesn't matter if you're nice, and accepting. 

I wouldn't in any way consider this [our exclusion of women and atheists] intolerance. I do not consider it a bad thing. I didn't say it was a bad thing in my post. 

However, there are non Masons out there (most likely anti-Masons) who _would_ say it is a bad and intolerant thing, that we either accept them into our lodge, or we are being intolerant. 

To reiterate, I do *not* agree with this assessment. I was merely trying to point out that tolerance is in the eye of the beholder, like so many other things in life. It's something to bear in mind, when discussing intolerance from any party; trying seeing the situation from their eyes, even if you disagree with them. Then you might at least understand them better, if nothing else.


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