# how old is freemasonry?



## ahyen (Apr 28, 2013)

just curious i know it was around with the stonemasons during the middle ages, right

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## widows son (Apr 28, 2013)

The operative mason who build cathedrals and churches were around in the Middle Ages. St. Mary's chapel lodge has minutes date back to 1599. I believe at that time both operative and speculative masons were meeting there.


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## JJones (Apr 28, 2013)

Masonry as we recognize officially began in the 1700's but, as Widow's Son has pointed out, there is evidence of it existing for quite some time before that.

There are some who believe the Masonry has roots in ancient mystery schools, which entirely possible, but it's pretty debatable.


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## ahyen (Apr 28, 2013)

what about its more recent history such as the birth of the us? how many of our founding fathers were masons? washington was right?

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## JJones (Apr 28, 2013)

Washington, Franklin, and Revere were all masons, to name a few.

Masonry had a -huge- impact on the formation of the US and many masonic ideals were taken into consideration while our constitution was written.


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## Michaelstedman81 (Apr 28, 2013)

I agree with Brother JJones about the influence Masonry could have had on the formation if our country. In fact, after reading works that I have read over time, I personally have come to a personal conclusion. To me, I kind of disagree with how folks say America was founded as a Christian nation or on Christian principles. In my own opinion, I like to think that America was actually founded upon Masonic principles instead.

I am a Christian, just in case that comes into question, but I see a lot of LOT of Masonic ties in our Nation's early documents and the formation if things. Like, the freedom of religion idea and using the word "Creator" instead of using a name. I have a whole list of things that I have picked up on or seen pointed out by other authors that I generally use as a discussion point with folks, but I'm on my phone waiting around lol.

Plus, it is not easily denied that a lot of the people that had a hand in forming our new country either were Masons, or could closely be linked to Masonry. Whether directly or indirectly involved in the process. In fact, given the people that we know in the history books that had a hand in creating our Nation, I personally think that it would have been hard for Masonic principles and ideas NOT to have slipped in there. 

I really think the freedom of religion thing was an awesome concept, whether it was stemming directly from Masonry or not. Aside from Masonry being a similarity, most of the guys responsible for founding our country were either Christians or Deists and could easily have included something that was preferential towards that in our founding. As far as I know, Masonry has had that outlook on religion for a very long time.


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## widows son (Apr 28, 2013)

I have a book called " The Secret Destiny of America" by  Manly P. Hall. The name of the book doesn't really apply to the content. I believe Bro. Hall, like other authors knew how to get a readers attention with cool titles. But he gets into the notion off sonic principles influenced on the American psyche. It truly is a good read.


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## widows son (Apr 28, 2013)

By sonic I mean Masonic. Lol


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## jwhoff (Apr 28, 2013)

widows son said:


> By sonic I mean Masonic. Lol



I'm semi-glad you explained that brother.  Otherwise ...

Well, I just fear that's nomenclature anti-masons have yet to identify.


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## jwhoff (Apr 28, 2013)

Yes, freedom of religion was a key concept.  

Yes, freemasonry appears to be the format used by the constitutionalist when they set up our republic.  Rather than Lords and Commons (a purely class structure) we chose Senate and House giving each state the same two votes to prevent those states with larger populations from controling everything.  

Not a bad idea when you think of it.  Otherwise, what's good for Texas, California, New York and Florida would be imposed without a check and balance on folks living in Idaho, Wymoning, and New Mexico.  

Masonically, at least in Texas, each lodge has three votes.  Each PM has a single vote.  Therefore, larger lodges or districts can run totally ruffshot over smaller lodges and districts.


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## ahyen (Apr 28, 2013)

jwhoff said:


> Yes, freedom of religion was a key concept.
> 
> Yes, freemasonry appears to be the format used by the constitutionalist when they set up our republic.  Rather than Lords and Commons (a purely class structure) we chose Senate and House giving each state the same two votes to prevent those states with larger populations from controling everything.
> 
> ...



whats a PM?

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## bupton52 (Apr 28, 2013)

ahyen said:


> whats a PM?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S720C using Freemasonry mobile app


 
Past Master


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## widows son (Apr 29, 2013)

The "Masonophobes" have been saying the same things for years with no progress. YEARS! They continue to say the same thing over and over and blah and blah. (Sorry). They knowingly choose to over look crucial facts that blows their whole Mickey Mouse operation out of the water. Example: the myth of the 33rd degree. They all seem to forget that the GRAND MASTER of the GRAND LODGE can prevent any Masonic body in its jurisdiction from meeting, but not the other way around. If all 33rd's are the "authority" in masonry, don't you think they would of paid special attention to this important factor? Rubbish.


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## jvarnell (Apr 29, 2013)

JJones said:


> Washington, Franklin, and Revere were all masons, to name a few.
> 
> Masonry had a -huge- impact on the formation of the US and many masonic ideals were taken into consideration while our constitution was written.



And impacted any new republic after the 1700's like the fist Republic of Texas


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## JJones (Apr 29, 2013)

jvarnell said:


> And impacted any new republic after the 1700's like the fist Republic of Texas



Funny you mention that because many of those famous men in the Alamo were brothers as well.

This also likely won't be much of a surprise to many members of this forum but Santa Anna was also a mason.


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## Michael Hatley (Apr 29, 2013)

Lots of different views about pre-1750 or so it seems.

But right, 31 of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention were Freemasons - so over half the men in the room who both planned and voted on what shaped this country.  And the majority of Washington's Generals were Freemasons, so the folks who led the war to secure the new country were also members of the Fraternity.

Same with Texas.  Many of the biggest names of our history were Freemasons - Sam Houston, Ben Milam, Stephen F. Austin, Lorenzo de Zavala, William Travis, James Bowie, James Fannin,  Juan Seguin, James Bonham and many more.  Every President, Vice President, and Secretary of State of the Republic of Texas was a Freemason.

Some of the handful of Presidents of the Republic were also Grand Masters of the Grand Lodge of the Republic of Texas.  One President of the Republic, Mirabeau Lamar, a Freemason -  founded the public education system in Texas and we still have a Masonic award given to educators in Texas that carries his name.  And of course schools across the state are named for him and the other Freemasons who pushed through that legislation.

The vast majority of downtown streets in Houston are named for early Texas Freemasons, their influence, and names are all around.

Masonry's footprints are all around us.

For me, I'm just not terribly caught up in where it came from before.  Solomon's Temple, Knights Templar and all the symbolism pertaining to each is mostly window dressing to me.  The surer a man seems about any of it the more skeptical I become, with a pretty quick loss of interest to follow.  I think there is likely one real answer.

Noone knows.


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## chrmc (Apr 29, 2013)

The books Cracking the Freemasons Code: The Truth About Solomon's Key and the Brotherhood by Robert L.D. Cooper and The Origins of Freemasonry: Scotland's Century, 1590 to 1710 by David Stevenson are probably two of the best books you'll get on the historical background of Freemasonry. They are good scholarly writings that based their conclusions and information on fact that can be supported. 

The won't give you the speculation about any possible connection with the Knights Templars and the Ancient Mysteries, but are definitely worth a read.


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## dfreybur (Apr 29, 2013)

jwhoff said:


> Masonically, at least in Texas, each lodge has three votes.  Each PM has a single vote.  Therefore, larger lodges or districts can run totally ruffshot over smaller lodges and districts.



It also makes Texas more conservative and there is more reason to go through the line.  I wonder at the correlation between how much power is held by PMs and when real recognition for PHA happened (not having visitation equals fake recognition in my very biased perspective).

In comparison one of my jurisdictions there are no PM votes just the WM, SW and JW or proxy plus the GL officers mentioned in the code book.  New GL offices are regularly proposed and regularly voted down.  Those new GL offices are then appointed pro tem by the GM the difference being they don't get an extra vote at GL.

In my other jurisdiction each lodge gets 4 votes WM, SW, JW and the unanimous agreement of the PMs in attendance.  Plus the same thing about GL officers.


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## dfreybur (Apr 29, 2013)

Michaelstedman81 said:


> To me, I kind of disagree with how folks say America was founded as a Christian nation or on Christian principles.



This is standard elementary school civics.

The form of the United States is openly taken from the pre-Christian Roman Republic.  A Senate and an Assembly/House.  Most states even call the lower house of their legislature the Assembly.  That form was modified based on the Enlightenment which was a hybrid vigor result of loosening religious hold, strengthening secular influence and growing individual religious fervor that happened in the colonies because they had de facto freedom of religion.

The laws of the United States are openly taken from English Common Law which is in turn based on both pre-Conversion Saxon and Norse common laws.  Again these laws enjoyed hybrid vigor from post-Conversion influence.  The jury concept comes from regional Thing (as does the county fair!).  The dynamic of keeping secular influence separate from church law to keep society from being dominated by either benefited all of civilization since.

The United States was founded as a secular state where we have always had a Christian majority in our population not as a Christian nation.  There are important differences.  Sweden is a Christian nation.  As Queen Elizabeth is the head of the Church of England to the extent she acts the part so is England.  England is a good example of the difference evolving across many generations.  The US is an example of being secular from the gate.  Being a secular state means it would make no difference if tomorrow morning a majority of the citizens woke up and converted to a different religion.  No changes in our laws would be needed or appropriate if we suddenly had a Buddhist majority.

Fundies like to complain about "New World Order" as if the word World meant the physical globe making the US an empire.  The word World really means secular or not run by the Church.  The US is and always has been a secular state.  Whether the US is an empire is depends far more on viewpoint.



> In my own opinion, I like to think that America was actually founded upon Masonic principles instead.



That part is slam dunk to history hobbyists and scholars.  It's more open to opinion than something as obvious as Senate and Assembly, consoles (pres and vp) holding veto, courts and tribunals.  But it's still pretty slam dunk.



> I really think the freedom of religion thing was an awesome concept ... As far as I know, Masonry has had that outlook on religion for a very long time.



There's a Masonic education piece here you know.  More ancient than the Roman eagle combined with it is to the Greeks therefore and not to the Romans ...  At the time GL Masonry was founded in 1717 the Inquisitions and purges as each new king/queen imposed sect where a lot more recent in their history than they are in ours.  They had members who remembered a time when you could be killed for openly sticking to your faith when the king changed and demanded another.  The Inquisitions were much more recent.

It was a big deal in the 1720s when membership in a specific religion was dropped.  Today we still struggle with the simplicity of that decision as we see in last November's edict of religious bigotry in Florida.


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## ahyen (Apr 29, 2013)

I seem to recall fmr. Pres. Bush.saying something along the lines of the US  being a judeo-christian nation (not an islamic nation). Islam here is only mentioned to complete what i think i remember hearing.  

We were founded on religious freedom. Many know this. But ive seen all over the net conspiracy advocates claiming the freemasons are  religious cult. I know that catholicism at one point forbade memborship in the freemasons.

My question now though is this... When did people decide to overlook history and make up their own beliefs on freemasonry.

I conclude that the mayan apocolypse was nothing more than the history channel needing higher ratings. Do you think mainstream media has helped bring us as a nation away from recognizing the masonic principles upon which our nation has been founded upon, even.if only through.inspiration from.the masons that helped to develop our nation as an independent state? 

I hope im making sense here lol

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## Roy Vance (Apr 29, 2013)

ahyen said:


> My question now though is this... When did people decide to overlook history and make up their own beliefs on freemasonry.



People will deny and make up things (lies) about subjects that they do not, or do not want to, understand. I have a niece that thinks the Freemasons are trying to take over the country, and no matter what I say to her, she will not capitulate in her belief. She is on of the ones that does not want to understand, therefore, the made up stories.


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## jamaz knight (Apr 30, 2013)

widows son said:


> I have a book called " The Secret Destiny of America" by  Manly P. Hall. The name of the book doesn't really apply to the content. I believe Bro. Hall, like other authors knew how to get a readers attention with cool titles. But he gets into the notion off sonic principles influenced on the American psyche. It truly is a good read.



realy

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## dfreybur (Apr 30, 2013)

ahyen said:


> I seem to recall fmr. Pres. Bush.saying something along the lines of the US  being a judeo-christian nation (not an islamic nation).



That mostly shows that in the US one can become President without learning the content of elementary school social studies.  Who knows if either pres Bush ever read the Federalist Papers (required reading when I was in junior high school), the Anti-Federalist Papers (every bit as important but much less popular) or even what the form of government in the Roman Republic was?



> We were founded on religious freedom. Many know this.



Fun tidbit - More than one colony was founded so they could practice their own sect with exclusionary policies.  As the exact sects were different the only way they could do that was by guaranteeing religious freedom.  What's not obvious about religious freedom is countries with it have consistently higher religious fervor.



> But ive seen all over the net conspiracy advocates claiming the freemasons are  religious cult.



Thank God for the publicity brought to us by nuts like that.



> My question now though is this... When did people decide to overlook history and make up their own beliefs on freemasonry.



Philosophers insist that it is reason that separates humanity from animals.  Humans are endowed with a vast store of unreason just as we are endowed with reason.



> I conclude that the mayan apocolypse was nothing more than the history channel needing higher ratings.



Exactly.  Those Mayan calendars are *round*.  You know, like endless circles.


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## widows son (May 1, 2013)

Hehe.


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## JManley215 (May 3, 2013)

This picture lists some prominent masons throughout our US history.

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## JManley215 (May 3, 2013)

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## samvin (May 3, 2013)

Ancient. Related with many ancient cultures


EA of Granada Hills Lodge #378


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## Traveling Man (May 3, 2013)

widows son said:


> By sonic I mean Masonic. Lol



We knew that...


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## Bro_Vick (May 4, 2013)

Michael Hatley said:


> For me, I'm just not terribly caught up in where it came from before.  Solomon's Temple, Knights Templar and all the symbolism pertaining to each is mostly window dressing to me.  The surer a man seems about any of it the more skeptical I become, with a pretty quick loss of interest to follow.  I think there is likely one real answer.
> 
> Noone knows.



We have to have some idea of what has happened, to both learn from it and prevent it from happening again.  I wrote about it in the education forum recently that in Europe the infestation of charlatans, and conman into our fraternity claiming to have the mystic origins of Freemasonry were too many to count.  America, because of our isolation at the time wasn't as impacted, but still had to contend with it.  These Masonic story tellers have diluted so much of our history, and begged, borrow and stole other concepts to tell a good story.

Reading books from European Masonic organizations from the 1700's is painful, it is like getting a tooth pulled with no anesthesia.  A lot of good mysticism, Christian esoteric teachings, and other teachings were lost, simply because the teachings were on the losing side of a personality conflict.

A part of the reason that recognition is so meaningful in our fraternity was to stop this type of activity, and to ensure that men were not being taken advantage of, has it gone too far today?  Perhaps, but that is for another thread. 

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## Michael Hatley (May 4, 2013)

Well, in my opinion, the question and others like it have caused us to jump the shark a fair bit.

Consider the 2nd degree, and the topics we are instructed to learn.

When is the last time you've seen a good healthy seminar on one of those topics at a lodge?  For me, the lodges doing Masonic discussion and whatnot - and so standing out from the lodges who do little education at all, they talk almost exclusively about speculation from this or that book as to the history of our order, the meaning of this symbol or that, and so forth.  And all that is well and good - we are an order with a deep history and a whole sack full of symbols.

But it seems to have jumped the shark.  Music, philosophy, geometry and so forth - these and others are the sort of thing that our ancient brethren were into.  But we've become obsessed with studying *ourselves*.  And many men off the street are a lot more interested in the mysteries and potential conspiracies surrounding our order than they are our quest for more light.  Its a form of stagnation, in my opinion.

I'm partially playing devils advocate here.  I've cracked a bunch of books on our history as well.  And I can't hold that same curiosity against anyone.

Its just that its a lot smaller part of what we are actually about that I think a lot of folks give credit to.


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## dfreybur (May 6, 2013)

Michael Hatley said:


> When is the last time you've seen a good healthy seminar on one of those topics at a lodge?  For me, the lodges doing Masonic discussion and whatnot - and so standing out from the lodges who do little education at all, they talk almost exclusively about speculation from this or that book as to the history of our order, the meaning of this symbol or that, and so forth.  And all that is well and good - we are an order with a deep history and a whole sack full of symbols.



The DDGM in one of my districts is into such topics.  He's done an education piece of sacred geometry among others.  I've done talks on each of the 7 as well as a talk on all 7 viewed as a pattern.  Being an aerospace guy I started out with a graph of a nozzle then switched to a saddle curve.  The 7 start as emerging out of chaos and concentrate into narrow order (as is to be expected thinking about the Scottich Rite degrees).  Then they expand back out this time through imagination not chaos.


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## jwhoff (May 8, 2013)

Would love to know if any such classes are given in the Houston area.

Please let us know if there are.

Thanks brother


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