# Petition Fee



## rhitland (Jul 22, 2009)

Brother Tom discovered about 100 years ago Ft Worth 148 had a petition fee of $75 just to get handed a petition to fill out and thinking on this for awhile I find it to not be that bad of an idea in the fact that if the pay for the petition and do not come backo they did not want to but after coming out of pocket some $$$ I bet it makes it easier to get a hold of the guy. I see many advantages to charging this fee but not many disadvantages and wonder why the practise went away and if you Brothers thought it should come back.


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## Skogie (Jul 22, 2009)

The question was not worded correctly.  I understood it to ask whether there was a fee for the 3 degrees of masonry and should it be charged.  Not just for a blank petition form.  Of course there should be a fee once the applicant has filled out the form and submitted it.  I have handed out several blank forms over the years.  Some come back with the applicant, some don't.

The forms themselves are free to the Lodge courtesy of Grand Lodge.  Why should there be a charge for the form?


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## Sirius (Jul 22, 2009)

There is nothing free about Freemasonry.


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## scottmh59 (Jul 22, 2009)

well put sirius


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## rhitland (Jul 22, 2009)

Skogie said:


> The question was not worded correctly.  I understood it to ask whether there was a fee for the 3 degrees of masonry and should it be charged.  Not just for a blank petition form.  Of course there should be a fee once the applicant has filled out the form and submitted it.  I have handed out several blank forms over the years.  Some come back with the applicant, some don't.
> 
> The forms themselves are free to the Lodge courtesy of Grand Lodge.  Why should there be a charge for the form?



Not sure how else to word it. I would take the fee after they fill out the petition but this is a fee seperate from degree fees and would have to be paid before petition is read in Lodge.


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## TCShelton (Jul 22, 2009)

Used to have petition fees.  I don't see why we wouldn't have them.


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## scottmh59 (Jul 22, 2009)

a candidate would be more focused on what he was wanting to get out of masonry if he was paying for the petition.


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## Sirius (Jul 22, 2009)

scottmh59 said:


> a candidate would be more focused on what he was wanting to get out of masonry if he was paying for the petition.



Exactly! It would give the whole process more value to the candidate. Something that is free by definition can not be to valuable.


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## Nate Riley (Jul 22, 2009)

If he gets black balled, does he get his money back?


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## RJS (Jul 22, 2009)

I would hope so.


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## Nate Riley (Jul 22, 2009)

I took a few minutes to think about it. And I don't really think it is a good idea to take any money prior to the vote and probably died for a reason.  I think the degree fees are acceptable and before we initiate is a good time to have a candidate pay dues.


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## js4253 (Jul 22, 2009)

Skogie said:


> The forms themselves are free to the Lodge courtesy of Grand Lodge.  Why should there be a charge for the form?



At our Lodge we require the degree fee to be submitted with the birth certificate and petition.

Petitions are not free. The lodges pay for them but they don't cost much.


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## TCShelton (Jul 22, 2009)

js4253 said:


> Petitions are not free. The lodges pay for them but they don't cost much.



Good call.


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## Skogie (Jul 22, 2009)

js4253 said:


> At our Lodge we require the degree fee to be submitted with the birth certificate and petition.
> 
> Petitions are not free. The lodges pay for them but they don't cost much.


Hmmm. Very interesting.  Arizona provides all Forms at no charge to the Lodge. 

When I hand out a petition the fees for initition plus other charges are listed on the back including the annual dues they will be expected to pay once they are a Master Mason.

When the petition is handed back and filled out completely a check or cash for all three degress is collected.  No other documentation is required such as a birth certificate, Driver's License or Social Security Card.  While the petition has a place on it for the SS #, it is marked "optional."   

The petition is then read for the first time at the next stated meeting and then sent to Grand Lodge for a processing number and approval.   A lodge investingating committee is then assigned by the WM to interview the applicant.  The petition is then read for the second time at the next stated meeting and a Ballot is conducted.  If no black cube is present and he is elected to receive the degrees, he is notified of the date set by the WM for the degree.  If he is rejected, a refund check is issued.

A monthly report is sent to Grand Lodge listing the dates of each degree as the candidate progresses by the Secretary.  

Actually a very simple process.

Richard Skoglund, PM
Secretary
Payson Lodge NO. 70
Payson, AZ.


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## rhitland (Jul 22, 2009)

Skogie said:


> When the petition is handed back and filled out completely a check or cash for all three degress is collected.
> The petition is then read for the second time at the next stated meeting and a Ballot is conducted.  If no black cube is present and he is elected to receive the degrees, he is notified of the date set by the WM for the degree.  If he is rejected, a refund check is issued.



Now there is a dang good idea all three degrees at once. What is that total Brother Skogie for all 3 degree here it is $300-$400. I always thought that would make some people stiffen up on joining but maybe that is the way to go. 

I also find it humbling Masons in AZ are still able to conduct their voting with 1 black cube rejecting, we have lost that privaledge which causes all kinds of problems.


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## TCShelton (Jul 22, 2009)

rhitland said:


> I also find it humbling Masons in AZ are still able to conduct their voting with 1 black cube rejecting, we have lost that privaledge which causes all kinds of problems.



*bites tongue*


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## Skogie (Jul 22, 2009)

The amount charged for the degrees varies with each Lodge.  Each Lodge is allowed to set the amount they wish to charge plus there are mandatory charges from Grand Lodge.  

Payson Lodge No. 70 charges a flat $90 for all three degrees.
Added are the following:
Grand Lodge Fee                               $12.00
Geo. Washington Memorial Fund           $15.00
Masonic Charities of Arizona                $ 5.00
Arizona Masonic Foundation for Children $ 5.00

These extra fees of $37.00 are added to the $90.00 for a total of $127 charged to the Candidate and are collected from the Applicant upon his filling out and submitting the application form.  If he is rejected with a black cube (rarely) then the entire amount is returned.  

However, once he had received the first degree and should he choose not to advance or for any other reason, there is no refund of the balance.

Other Lodges in Arizona charge as high as $200 plus Grand Lodge fees to a low of $90 in a survey I made last year.  We have discussed this amount recently at a Board of Trustees meeting and, considering the costs expended by the Lodge for Apron, Bible, Engraved Trowel plus Lodge overhead costs, are going to propose to the membeship at the next stated meeting to increase the fees to $150.

We do not charge Dues until the brother has passed his proficiency in the 3rd degree.  Then he pays on a pro-rated basis depending upon the month of the year he is raised otherwise we would have a lot of 3rd degrees piling up in December and January.  

_______________________________________________________

Richard Skoglund, PM
Secretary
Payson Lodge No. 70
Payson, AZ.


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## Nate Riley (Jul 22, 2009)

js4253 said:


> At our Lodge we require the degree fee to be submitted with the birth certificate and petition.
> 
> Petitions are not free. The lodges pay for them but they don't cost much.



You can download one on the GL's website for free.



rhitland said:


> Now there is a dang good idea all three degrees at once. What is that total Brother Skogie for all 3 degree here it is $300-$400. I always thought that would make some people stiffen up on joining but maybe that is the way to go.
> 
> I also find it humbling Masons in AZ are still able to conduct their voting with 1 black cube rejecting, we have lost that privaledge which causes all kinds of problems.



I think at $300-$400 you might miss out on some good candidates. Not because they don't want to do it, but simply because that is quite a bit of money at one time.  Mine was $60/$60/$100 paid before each degree, and I thought that was very fair. If I had to pay it all up front I might of had to reconsider or get on the layaway plan. Plus it would have cost me $400, because I would have had to let my wife spend $200, too.


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## js4253 (Jul 22, 2009)

Nate Riley said:


> You can download one on the GL's website for free.



You are correct.


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## Bill Lins (Jul 22, 2009)

Nate Riley said:


> If he gets black balled, does he get his money back?



I would think so. See Art's. 410, 411, & 433.


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## Wingnut (Jul 23, 2009)

the cost of the degrees used to sting a mans pocket.  Many felt it helped ensure commitment since they werent just spending the amount of a decent dinner...  Yep Im for it.


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## JTM (Jul 23, 2009)

i dunno if i'd be a mason today if i had to pay for a petition.


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## owls84 (Jul 24, 2009)

I would be for it but the bar would need to be raised. I think it should be an option for the Lodge but I think the degree teams should have to meet a criteria, such as certification.


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## Wingnut (Jul 24, 2009)

Look at it this way (Im liking this idea the more I think about it off line).  Getting the petition is free, turning it in is say $25 non-refundable.  The $25 goes to paying for the background check (publicdata.com subscription for example).  Then in the by-laws set up your degree fees to be $50 above the GL Minimum.  Same with Dues, $50 above GL minimum.  This way you dont have to redo your by-laws everytime GL makes a change so that you can keep the same % of working funds from the dues and fees you collect.  Any money left over from the $25 application fee could go toward (for example) the fee you must collect for the Washington Memorial, GL of TX Masonic Charities, cost of Bible, Apron, added to the scholarship fund, building fund, donation to GL building fund etc.


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## owls84 (Jul 24, 2009)

These are all great ideas Brother. The most common reaction when a candiate came and discussed joining was at the point they asked how much, we would tell them and it was always followed by, thats it? Another thing is if we charged more for the degrees and gave them time insead of rushing through it isn't like coming up with $500 in 3 months it is $500 over 2 years or more. Like it was. I am for charging EAs and FCs dues as well. Maybe not a full amount but something. I am not for breaking people but if you think about it, the active members pay WAY more than the dues fees. You have fundraisers they attend and donations thay make. I know I have spent well over an endowment fund fee just this year alone in additional costs. Just think if we raised the dues a bit and sure some will not be able to pay but if they ask for help we could pay annual returns for them. I just believe we get tied up in numbers too much (we will loose 20 members) chances are those 20 never helped or you never saw them anyways. Look at what you will gain and people may take it a little more serious from day one. Much like the teen that pays for their car as opposed to the teen that get a car from their parents.  

I am just saying before everyone is quick to say "no" think of how many fund raisers you have to throw each year and how much money is shelled out by each member at these. Now just imagine instead of 30 members paying $10 during 5 fundraisers (30 members paying $1500 each year) you raise dues $30 to 150 members (now 150 members pay $4500) and degree fees then you are talking about having Fellowship instead of fundraisers. We raised our degree fees by a third or more and that has not stopped anyone or the flow of cadidates. I have yet to hear a candidate say "wow thats too steep" Just food for thought. This may not be for every Lodge but why not entertain the idea.


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## Wingnut (Jul 24, 2009)

My only problem with charging EAs and FCs is if you make them pay dues, they should have the right to vote and I dont agree with that at all.

I more than agree about dues.  It never fails that the ones that oppose it the most and loudest and the ones you dont see at the fundraisers or building clean up or maintenance days etc.  It ends up being the same people donating the time and money for the chili supper to happen, then buying tickets to eat the chili they donated and on and on...


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## JTM (Jul 24, 2009)

i think if they're going to pay a petition fee, you need to also give them something in exchange.  is the goal to raise money, or encourage better brethren?

how can we use that 75 dollars to increase their knowledge in masonry?


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## rhitland (Jul 24, 2009)

I have been looking at it the same way Brother Windel, I mean 3 Brothers take time out to come and investigate so we are showing our commitment why can't they show a little commitment with some doe ray me and then if blackballed refund but if he withdraws after investigation it is non-refundable.


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## Blake Bowden (Jul 24, 2009)

Yup charge them, maybe that will help weed out those who will take the Craft seriously. Might be an incentive if a person has a little $ tied up!


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## JTM (Jul 25, 2009)

i think ideally it's a great idea, but in the current state of things, wouldn't implement very well.


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## RedTemplar (Jul 26, 2009)

I never have thought about it. In my lodge, $25 accompanies the petition and $25 before each degree.  Yes, we return the petition fee if petitioner is rejected for the degrees.


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## JTM (Jul 26, 2009)

is that common of a GL of Kentucky lodge?


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## RedTemplar (Jul 27, 2009)

JTM said:


> is that common of a GL of Kentucky lodge?



Its probably a low average.  IMHO, the cost of freemasonry is way too cheap. In contrast, my lodge dues are $53 per year.  The local Lion's club dues are approx. $25 *per month.* GLoK gets half of our dues which leaves the lodge with $26.50 to operate each year. I could cry on and on but.......


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## tom268 (Apr 23, 2011)

rhitland said:


> it makes it easier to get a hold of the guy





scottmh59 said:


> a candidate would be more focused on what he was wanting





Sirius said:


> It would give the whole process more value to the candidate



Brothers, I really don't believe what I am reading here. If this is your opinion, then I hope, that you are honest enough to your new candidates to tell them, how hot you are after their money.

It is absolutely no question, that a lodge needs money to live, and that a lodge has expenses. The annual dues should be for this. But to charge one, to get and hold his attention? Are you really that less confident about your offer, that you need a golden wrap? The value is freemasonry and what he will get through his membership. What holds him is the TRUST and the special EXPERIENCES he will make in the brotherhood, not the FEAR to have invested his money into the wrong club.

Our annual dues are quite high, so are our degree fees. The degree fee for the initiation is the highest, with about $500, that makes about $1050 for the first year, but we would never ask one to pay for us taking in his petition. Sounds like a bribe in my eyes.


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## Skogie (Apr 23, 2011)

It's been a while since I have posted (July 09) on this thread.  Been busy at lodge & OES, keeping all the lectures and Ritual fresh in the "grey" areas.  It can get confusing at times such as knocking on the door as a pro tem Warder in OES or pro tem Junior Deacon in Lodge.  Egads!  

Back to the subject of this thread.  After much discussion and research the Board of Trustees, with the approval of the membership in 2010 voted to increase the initial cost of an applicant for the degrees to $200.  This includes all miscellaneous Grand Lodge Fees and Lodge costs PLUS his first year's dues pro-rated.  

We recently had one applicant Black Cubed and refunded his money. 

Another good man on unemployement and going to the local community college, studying to be a nurse and changing carreers, did not have the upfront money.  However he DID have something of more than equal value that the lodge has been needing for a long time:  A  commercial outdoor propane fired two burner stove on wheels.  Approximate value: $300.  An approval for a swap in lieu of degree fees was made by the Board of Trustees and membership.  Oy Veh! Such A Deal!

He is a young, strong, enthusiastic Master Mason and donating a lot of his time to maintenance and learning degree work yet has not contributed one dime after over a year.  Extremely popular with everyone, good personality and an ulta conserative member of the Tea Party.   Now employed after graduation.  Lowered the average age in the lodge from 69 years,3 months. to 65 years one month.  

The point being that a lodge has to be flexible in many areas and willing to try something different.  This being the first time we ever did a swap and it worked out really well.

Richard Skoglund, PM
Secretary
Payson Lodge No. 70
Payson, AZ.


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## Tony Siciliano (Apr 23, 2011)

tom268 said:


> Our annual dues are quite high, so are our degree fees. The degree fee for the initiation is the highest, with about $500, that makes about $1050 for the first year, but we would never ask one to pay for us taking in his petition.



If we tried charging this much, Freemasonry in the US consist of about 2000 men in New York, Miami, and LA.


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## Skogie (Apr 23, 2011)

Tony Siciliano said:


> If we tried charging this much, Freemasonry in the US consist of about 2000 men in New York, Miami, and LA.
> Tony Siciliano, 32Â°
> Lafayette Lodge #83, A.F & A.M - GLoNC
> Valley of New Bern, Orient of NC



Bro. Tony:

Yes, that is quite a sum for someone to come up with.  Several Arizona Lodges have struggled with the problem of dues, some quoting the inflation factor and that Dues should be adjusted upward yearly and tied to the rate of inflation or CPI. (Consumer Price Index) Others argue that if the price gets too high, we will lose members.  Both are correct.

Some lodges have done just that, adjusted their dues to what a dollar would buy 20 years ago.  They went from $30 plus Grand Lodge per capita tax to $200 plus Grand Lodge Per capita.  They lost half their dues paying membership the first year.  Interestingly, these men did not drop out of Masonry, the simply paid their new high price of dues and then immediately demitted to another nearby lodge whose dues were $60 per year.  You must be in "good standing" in order to demit which means you have paid your dues for the current year.

Then there are the lodges who have a pemanent outside income from rental of commercial space or property they own.  This income covers all their expenses for the entire year and more.  Therefore they have no need to raise the dues, keeping them low and affordable.

Others have a "preservation fund" or endowment.  While the principal can never be used, the lodge operates on 1/2 the interest received each year, the balance of the interest received deposited in the fund thereby increasing the amount in the fund to adust for inflation.  This has worked very well for our lodge in Payson over these many years and we have not had to increase dues except when the Grand Lodge increases the per capita tax.   

We have Fund Raisers, but not for the Lodge finances per se.  We have several charitable projects that we use the proceeds for.

Men do not join Masonry to donate Free Labor to keep the lodge operating.  This unfortunately is often the case.  

Proper financial management of a lodge is the key to keeping a lodge solvent.  There are many ways to do this without increasing the dues to the point of no return and you end up with members voting with their feet.

Richard Skoglund, PM
Secretary
Payson No. 70
Payson, AZ.


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## Benton (Apr 23, 2011)

Two points:

1) This thread was resurrected from the dead. It was over two years old. If you want to discuss a petition fee, feel free to start a new thread on that topic.

2) The thread, since being resurrected, is starting to twist off into a dues rates discussion, which isn't the same as a petition fee discussion, as least not exactly. Once again, start a new thread on one, or both of these topics, if you wish to discuss.

Going to go ahead and close this thread for above reasons.


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