# Moral Turpitude?



## jonesvilletexas (Mar 2, 2009)

This has brought up many hours of discussion, how would you answer to a man petitioning the Lodge? And how would your Lodge vote on a manâ€™s petition if he answered yes?

PETITION FOR THE DEGREES OF FREEMASONRY (Texas)

16. Have you ever been charged with a felony or misdemean or involving moral turpitude? 


Moral Turpitude
It has been stated that the term â€œmoral turpitudeâ€ is so clear that there is no duty on the trial judge to define it in the absence of a request. The term has been defined in Georgia as follows:

â€œTurpitude in its ordinary sense involves the idea of inherent baseness or vileness, shameful wickedness, depravityâ€¦. In its legal sense it includes everything contrary to justice,honesty, modesty or good moralsâ€¦. The word â€˜moral,â€™ which so often precedes the word turpitude, does not seem to add anything to the meaning of the term, other than that emphasis which often results from a tautological expression. All crimes embraced within the Romanâ€™s conception of the crimen falsi involve turpitude; but it is not safe to declare that such crimes are the only ones involving turpitude.â€ In Ramsey v. State, the court said that a crime involving moral turpitude is one which is malum in se rather than malum prohibitum. In Georgia, the test for whether a felony is one involving moral turpitude is â€œdoes the [crime], disregarding its felony punishment, meet the test as being contrary to justice, honesty, modesty, good morals or manâ€™s duty to man?â€

It has been held that the following offenses are crimes involving moral turpitude:

â€¢ Fraud or false pretenses in obtaining something of value
â€¢ Larceny or a misdemeanor theft by taking
â€¢ Larceny after trust
â€¢ Murder
â€¢ Soliciting for prostitutes
â€¢ Voluntary manslaughter
â€¢ Sale of narcotics or other illegal drugs
â€¢ Pattern of failure to file federal tax returns in years in which taxes are due
â€¢ Criminal Issuance of a bad check
â€¢ Making a false report of a crime

The following have been held to be offenses which are not crimes involving moral turpitude:

â€¢ Public drunkenness
â€¢ Driving under the influence
â€¢ Carrying a concealed weapon
â€¢ Unlawful sale of liquor
â€¢ Fighting
â€¢ Simple Battery
â€¢ Simple Assault
â€¢ Misdemeanor criminal trespass
â€¢ Child abandonment
â€¢ Misdemeanor offense of escape
â€¢ Misdemeanor offense of obstructing a law enforcement officer
â€¢ The federal misdemeanor offense of Conspiracy in Restraint of Interstate Trade and
Commerce
â€¢ Possession of less than one ounce of marijuana

Would he be stoped for ANY of the above?


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## C_Cabra (Mar 2, 2009)

I think it's odd that not paying your taxes is considered moral turpitude but child abandonment isn't.  

Is this a list from the Grand Lodge of Texas?

Personally,  I would be more likely to vote against a candidate  who abandoned his child than one who didn't file his taxes.  Especially since I have issues with the way the federal government collects taxes. 

However that is a discussion for another thread.

In most of these cases above I would probably vote against a candidate unless a satisfactory explanation were provided.   

For instance I would probably not vote against a 50 year old man who got busted for misdemeanor larceny when he was 18 and has had a clean record ever since.   Also I would probably vote against a  person who commited simple battery if that battery involved a woman or child.  

I think there are instances where things are not black and white and fit nicely "inside the box" so to speak.


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## jonesvilletexas (Mar 2, 2009)

This came from Georgia AND NOT from any Lodge that I know of. This post is just for 
Feedback.  It has no personnel reflection on your lodge.


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## rhitland (Mar 3, 2009)

There would be a long steep hill for this candidate to get into my Lodge with any of these crimes against him, but I would certianly vote them in if they pass the test.


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## caeservi (Mar 3, 2009)

As an FC,  the DDGM asked me tp define moral turpitude me for him.  There were some masonic charges filed under moral turpitude and he needed a definition.  One of the local county judges is a brother and told the DDGM to ask me to define it for him.  I wrote a memo defining it and it is a slippery slope.  There are a couple of definitions, one dealing with laymen, and the other that deals with attorneys.  The attorney definition encompasses just about every crime; the lay version basically covers crimes of fraud, theft, deceit, and sexual offenses.  When I get back from D.C.  I will try and find the memo I wrote and post it (redacted of course).


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## owls84 (Mar 3, 2009)

I agree with Bro. Rhit (AGAIN), any of these crimes I believe should be listed AND questioned by the investigative team. Based on his answer is how the individual members of the team base thier recomendation.


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