# About origin of Freemasonry



## Luigi Visentin (Dec 25, 2016)

I'm sorry of not having participated much to the forum's life, but I have passed a lot of free time in these last months to work on my researches also because I have found many interesting information about ancient Masons. However as a sort of "Christmas Gift" I have decided to write a short paper about the origin of Freemasonry according to the Legend of the Craft. This paper does not includes all findings that I have reserved for the book I'm writing (in Italian), but I think that it has enough information to be of interests for you and to allow personal researches about.

****

Who were ancient Mason? It can be seen as incredibly simple, but who were ancient Mason is told us by the Regius Manuscript:

_Pray we now to God almight, (almighty)
And to his mother Mary bright, _

_That we may keep these articles here,
And these points well all y-fere, (together)
As did these holy martyrs four,
That in this craft were of great honour;
They were as good masons as on earth shall go,
Gravers and image-makers they were also.
For they were workmen of the best,
The emperor had to them great luste; (liking)
He willed of them an image to make
That might be worshipped for his sake;
Such monuments he had in his dawe, (day)
To turn the people from Christ’s law._

_But they were steadfast in Christ’s lay, (law)
And to their craft without nay; (doubt)
They loved well God and all his lore,
And were in his service ever more.
True men they were in that dawe, (day)
And lived well in God’s law;
They thought no monuments for to make,
For no good that they might take,
To believe on that monument for their God,
They would not do so, though he were wod; (furious)
For they would not forsake their true fay, (faith)_

_And believe on his false lay, (law)
The emperor let take them soon anon,
And put them in a deep prison;
The more sorely he punished them in that place,
The more joy was to them of Christ’s grace,
Then when he saw no other one,
To death he let them then gon; (go)
Whose will of their life yet more know
By the book he might it show
In the legend of scanctorum (holy ones)
The names of the quatuor coronatorum._

The text cited in the last two lines is a mispelling of "Legenda Sanctorum", better known as Golden Legend, of Jacobus de Voragine, an Italian bishop, which tells the "story" of the Four Crowned Martyrs. This is the translation of Caxton, dated 1483 (and adapted to modern language), of the Legenda Sanctorum:

_Here followeth of the Four Crowned Martyrs._

_The four crowned martyrs were Severus, Severianus, Carpoforus, and Victorinus, which by the commandment of Diocletian were beaten with plummets of lead unto the death. The names of whom could not be found, but after long time they were showed by divine revelation, and it was established that their memory should be worshipped under the names of five other martyrs, that is to wit Claudian, Castor, Symphorian, Nicostratus, and Simplician, which were martyred two years after the four crowned martyrs. And these martyrs knew all the craft of sculpture or of carving, and Diocletian would have constrained them to carve an idol, but they would not entail ne carve it, ne consent to do sacrifice to the idols. And then by the commandment of Dioc]etian they were put into tuns of lead all living, and cast into the sea about the year of our Lord two hundred four score and seven. And Melchiades, the pope, ordained these four saints to be honoured and to be called the four crowned martyrs before that their names were found. And though their names were afterward found and known, yet for the usage they be always called the four crowned martyrs._

Please note that the "Four Crowned" are only the first four martyrs and their profession is not specified, but we know from other sources that they were roman soldier, that is _milites_. The Regius confuses however the reason why they have been martyrized as the reason cited is the one which caused the death of the other five. The reason of this confusion is in the Golden Legend itself as it tells, for the first four martyrs, that they "_were beaten with plummets of lead" "by the commandment of Diocletian"_, but not why Diocletian ordered this.

The confusion is also in the origins as there are two legends, one for the soldiers and one for the sculptors, however the Four Crowned have been called in this way as their names were unknown while the names of the sculptors were known already from the beginning. The mix of the stories of the first four soldier and of the five scultors was decided by the catholic church their relics were moved to the "Basilica dei Quattro Coronati" in Rome.

The Regius however indicates that the ability of carving was an extra capability of masons:

_They were as good masons as on earth shall go,
Gravers and image-makers they were also._

and specifies also that the martyrs were four and not nine, practically ignoring the five carvers. The Golden Legend has been written taking the information about the Quatuor Coronati from the Passio of Saint Sebastian, first wrongly attributed to S. Ambrosius of Milan and dated in the V century. In this work, which is however mostly a novel, the Four Crowned are specified to be soldiers of the guard of Diocletian. As told above, as their names were initially unknown the pope gave them the name of "Four Crowned".

The most important point however is this: they were soldiers and exactly "_milites_" (or "_miles_" at singular). This is the exact profession of the ancient Operative Masons. It can seem very strange but it is necessary to consider that the Roman Army was the biggest building enterprise of the antiquity. Most of the roman streets, fortress and public buildings have been built by roman soldiers, not by civil workers. Many of them are still existing and some are still in use in Italy and also abroad. The main tool of the legionar was the "dolabra" a sort of pickaxe that can be used to cut trees, work stone (and also to crash helmets if necessary  as they were, in any case, soldiers). It is the same tool used by middle ages masons to cut and work stones, only with a longer grip. A Roman general Gneo Domizio Corbulone, once said that the "victory had to be gained using the dolabra". And for the Romans this tool was common as the _glaudio_ or the _pilum_. The use of this instrument and the ability in the work of erecting buildings is clearly shown on the Trajan's Column that is a must-see monument in Rome and is cited in the Inigo Jones Manuscript too (not by chanche).

A confirmation of this origin comes from the Inigo Jones Manuscript, which dating is pretty difficult but it is likely one the richest information source about ancient Freemasonry. This manuscript is very precise and says that:

_IN the Year XLIII, after the birth of CHRIST, MASONS came into England, _

In 43 a.C. Romans invaded Britannia (Britain) and many masonic authors have giustified this information saying that the Collegia followed the army, but this is totally wrong. Roman army did not use civilian workers and the conquest of Britannia was long and difficult. They took four years to estabilish a firm base and another four to consolidate it. In that period only the army was operating in Britannia and this went on for about twenty years after the landing of the troops. The same manuscript give other indications, specifying:

_and built a Anno Christi XLIII goodly Monastry Near unto Glassenbury, with many CASTLE S and TOWERS._

This part is referred to a legend on the foundation of the Glastonbury Abbey (Glassenbury in French) made Joseph of Arimathea (that according to another legend died in Britain). According to the christian iconography of Middle Age, Joseph was a knight who, together with other five _milites_ was at the service of Pilatus. Basically Joseph was the legendary founder of the _christian chivalry_ and during the Middle Age the word most used to indicate a knight was _miles_ (sometime was used also _equites_, while "knight" and the other versions like "Ritter" (german) or "Cavaliere" (Italian) becomes common around the twelfth century).
Also S.Alban that it is cited in almost all versions of the Legend of the Craft, is declared as Mason and king's Steward, was a roman soldier, that is a miles, according to christian's agiography.

Therefore the ancient question has a simple answer: ancient Operative Mason were Roman soldiers, that is _milites_. The Legend simply tells shortly what happened to operative Masons from the last period of the West Roman Empire till the tenth century. Clearly the story is in a coded form but it is pretty easy to show that every biblical reference has some errors that are repeated in the various versions of the Legend itself and analyzing these errors is possible to understand something of what is hidden in the text.

The Legend tells much more than this, but now you have a good hint to find out who were masonic "David" and "Solomon" who lived much later the fall of the West Roman Empire.
An important precisation: I can not say with certainty if the story told by the Legend of the Craft is true or invented. However this is simply what the Legend tells.

Many season's greetings!


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 30, 2016)

Interesting info.


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## Luigi Visentin (Jan 1, 2017)

First of all, Happy New Year!
Likely the Mithraism can have influenced Masonry but, according to the Legend of the Craft, Masons were basically Christians, at least from Diocletian onwards. The problem is that what we know about Mithraism comes mainly from later Christians writers in a period were all what was not Christian was an enemy and, likely, misunderstood and what has been "rebuild" my authors like Franz Cumont, who, however have included a lot of personal interpretations in his researches. As far as I have understood Mithraism was not exactly a real religion but better a sort of sacralisation of the army and of military life and this has allowed a sort of cohabitation till when the Christianity definitely took the power.

The "basically" above means that if mainly they were Christians they considered "brothers" also non Christians who made the same job.


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## Luigi Visentin (Jan 2, 2017)

I'm sorry but I do not agree: "unfortunately" I live in Italy and we have buildings that are much more than 2000 years old. We have also many buildings that have been continuously modified adding or repairing parts with news stiles so you can see their evolution like an history film. Archeologists and historians use a lot of way to check the sources and to date buildings, monuments and paintings and the materials used can be dated according to the most recent scientific techniques and they use statistics too. There are also many books and chronicles unknown to the big public but that survived in many different copies and their origin can be traced and some of them have not yet been digitalized and can be accessed only to scholars because of their high rarity and value. There are still surely some parts of the history that are dubious and need to be verified but it is also true that statistics can be highly misleading (we have a joke about "statistic of chicken"). Believe me but we have a pretty good knowlegde of last 2500 years history of Mediterranean and West Europe. Obviously some parts are still little known or should be corrected or unknown but this depends from some local accident and some "common sense" misleading indications (particularly about the time necessary to do something).

PS 1: I think that some mithraic uses are in our rites. I have underlined a couple of them in my research. However it is not the most relevant "roman" tradition that we have. I have another, documented, source for the origin of the "wardens" that likely is mixed with mithraic, but it was in the Roman Army.

PS 2: Holy Inquisition was not a problem till the papal ban


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## SimonM (Jan 2, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> Any dark ages - periods with no evidence?


In this case it you who have to provide evidence since you are challengeing the accepted model. A book about history written by a mathematician is not enough. Give us a few sources written by proper historians and we have somewhere to start


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## SimonM (Jan 2, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> >a few sources written by proper historians
> 
> If you want truth you will need to find it for yourself.
> 
> You could start with Henry Ford when he said *History is bunk *as reported in the NYT of Oct 28 1921.


Should I find the truth for myself or should I listen to authorities? If you want me to do it for my self you cant go on and give me a reference some text. You cant have it both ways.
What I will do is trust people who study history since I don't have the time or inclination to learn several dead languages and read the primary sources.  The persons I trust are the ones who's work have been thoroughly examined and found acceptable. That method have worked fine for a few centuries when it come to subjects like history, physics and medicine. It gives accurate enough answers. 

So, with that said I'd like to go back to the Mithraic cults 
From what I read the Mithras cult _was_ a religion (I have a hard time imagine a cult without a religion, there would be no point of doing the rituals of the cult then). However, since polytheism and syncretism was much more accepted at that time and both Christianity and Mithraic cult had strong Solar focus it was easy to merge the two. 
@Luigi Visentin , If you can share your notes about the similarities between the cult officers and the wardens I would really appreciate it!


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## Luigi Visentin (Jan 4, 2017)

SimonM said:


> I have a hard time imagine a cult without a religion, there would be no point of doing the rituals of the cult then



Sorry I answer late but I'm very busy in this date. The definition of "religion" and "cult" are extremely wide so it is difficult to explain how they connect or not. I can make simple humorous example: in Italy food and soccer are both cults, but soccer is also a religion, while food not .

I think that mithraism worked in a way similar to ancient tribal rites, based on simbolic reply of the activities that they intended to celebrate or to ask the help for. Honestly I have not collected my researches about as my focus was and is Masonry, however I can try to put togheter something in some days.



JamestheJust said:


> Any dark ages - periods with no evidence?



It is depending from the place: in the territories of ancient Roman empire there are a lot of information. In other places, as Germany, for example, much less, as most part was under german tribes which have not a system to record facts and dates. In Italy, even under the invasion of barbarians, the chronicles are enough detailled. Obviously do not look for an exact and detailled report: writing tools and other recording system were very poor and easily subject to be destroyed, however we have much more information that what we usually learn in the school.


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## Luigi Visentin (Jan 5, 2017)

Thanks for the hints, but Mithraism does not give much information about what I search. Other sources are much more interesting because I have found important information in other sources and this has allowed me to make an hypothesis about ancient Masons that allowed me to identify them more exactly as Masons were _milites_ indeed but, obvioulsy, not all _milites_ were Masons.


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## Luigi Visentin (Jan 9, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> This allows for a great variety of theories


I have only one theory


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 11, 2017)

Wow! Deep Stuff! Lots to chew on.


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## Luigi Visentin (Jan 15, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> I find that having several theories allows me to recognize more evidence - and even see that one piece of evidence can support contradictory theories at the same time.



I do not think that is a good method. For example if you pick up one fruit from an apple tree, another from a pear tree, another from a cherry tree, another one from an orange tree and so on and you put all together, at the end, you will be convinced that it exist the tree of the "fruit salad".  Or at least Alice would think so.

It is true that you can find many traditions in current Freemasonry, but they have been included during eighteen century, modifying what was Freemasonry before. Before of this period Freemasonry was following a sole tradition and to completeness of the research I have looked for an explanation of this and found that some of this roots are still existing. However as SimonM said:


SimonM said:


> to provide evidence since you are challengeing the accepted model



and even if it does not exists a real "accepted model" as the one of the middleage guilds is not demonstrated, my worry had been to find "evidences" to my findings. Clearly it can not be found for everything but, for example if we talk about the "curious Mason named Naymus Grecus" I can tell you who is, why is "Grecus" and why he is "curious" and I can show you evidences about all the three information. And I can tell you that these evidences are not hidden elsewhere but you need simply use what a learned person in middleage knew.


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## Luigi Visentin (Jan 16, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> It asserts that the Antients did not bring any pre-1717 materials into the the 1813 union.


Not exactly or likely I have expressed wrongly. First of all who are these "Antients"? They appears around 1750 and it is not demonstrated that they were really "antients" or simply claimed to be so. No evidence that they followed really antient Freemasonry.
Second: indeed there is a lot of material pre 1717 included in our rites but with a different meaning. To make a clear parallel example think to the "prancing horse" of Ferrari: it is a race care brand and a luxury brand. But in WWI it was the emblem of the Italian top fighter ace Francesco Baracca. His mother gave it in 1929 to Enzo Ferrari and he adopted it as "lucky charm". The symbol is the same and means strenght, courage and speed, but previously was a war emblem, later a sport emblem and now also a luxury emblem. More or less is the same for ancient masonic symbols and rites: they have been simply changed the meaning even if the symbolic content is in many case the same.
Third: I have a personal theory about what happened on the end of 1600 and beginning of 1700 to Freemasonry and it considers a simply change of the focus, but with no change of the symbols. If we look, for example, at the Graham MS and to the explanations of the answers it will be pretty clear that the explations are forced (like, for example, the one about orientation of the churches). I have speculated about the reason of this change but it would take a complete article to explain. 



JamestheJust said:


> And it asserts that the Rosicrucians did not have any influence on Masonry until the 18th century.


There is a lot of stuff about this argument. However no masonic document before 1717 to support it. If you know one of them , please inform me and I will be happy to review my ideas about.



JamestheJust said:


> Equally for the aspects of Mithraic ritual that currently exist in Freemasonry.


This is not what I have said: indeed a few post above you will find that I say that there is something mithraic but that I think that Mithraism was a sort of sacralization of army and military life. As Freemasonry is born in the roman army we have still some remains of it.


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## BullDozer Harrell (Apr 4, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> Or if there is evidence, we do not recognize it.
> 
> This occurs because very few brethren are familiar with the ancient mysteries.  For example the EA question about the sun at its meridian refers to the experience of the candidate in the Isaic and Egyptian Mysteries.


Why would it matter to me about a made up connection between Freemasonry and the Ancient Mystery Schools of Egypt? There is none as far as I'm concerned. Just an invented one made by higher degree peddlers in the 19th& 20th centuries.


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## coachn (Apr 5, 2017)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> Why would it matter to me about a made up connection between Freemasonry and the Ancient Mystery Schools of Egypt? There is none as far as I'm concerned. Just an invented one made by higher degree peddlers in the 19th& 20th centuries.


Yep!  Fabrications all!


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## Warrior1256 (Apr 5, 2017)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> Why would it matter to me about a made up connection between Freemasonry and the Ancient Mystery Schools of Egypt? There is none as far as I'm concerned. Just an invented one made by higher degree peddlers in the 19th& 20th centuries.





coachn said:


> Yep! Fabrications all!


But entertaining!


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## BullDozer Harrell (Apr 5, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> I was somewhat doubtful too until I saw some ancient Egyptian artifacts and then the proposition was obvious.  I saw that our 3rd ritual is a superficial reproduction of the Egyptian raising.  It has the form but not the substance.


There's a striking similarity between the Isis-Osiris myth and the Hiram Abiff legend, at least in substance underneath the form. Ok there's Osiris missing weiner (pardon my french) and there's Hiram's lost Master's Word. I would think though that's where any correspondence begin & end. 

If i'm not mistaken, i think the Greco-Egyptian meant it to convey a much bigger truth than any fraternal & moral lesson that the English Masonic inventers of the Hiram Abiff legend attempted to illustrate. 

If we remember the definition of Masonry that has now become classic, "it's a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols", we would probably better understand when some brothers such as myself say that much of modern Masonry is an innovation. It's not a continuation of any of the ancient Mystery Traditions or what have you.


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## Ripcord22A (Apr 5, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> ancient Egyptian artifacts.


Key word....ancient.  They were before Freemasonry came to be.  So yeah we borrowed from it


Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Warrior1256 (Apr 5, 2017)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> we would probably better understand when some brothers such as myself say that much of modern Masonry is an innovation. It's not a continuation of any of the ancient Mystery Traditions or what have you.





Ripcord22A said:


> Key word....ancient. They were before Freemasonry came to be. So yeah we borrowed from it


Agreed!


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## coachn (Apr 5, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> But entertaining!


Indeed!  Many an imaginary snipe hunt for all those who do not know any better.


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## coachn (Apr 5, 2017)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> There's a striking similarity between the Isis-Osiris myth and the Hiram Abiff legend, at least in substance underneath the form. Ok there's Osiris missing weiner (pardon my french) and there's Hiram's lost Master's Word. I would think though that's where any correspondence begin & end.


The lost word is Hiram's MANHOOD?!?!?!  Oh My!



BullDozer Harrell said:


> If i'm not mistaken, i think the Greco-Egyptian meant it to convey a much bigger truth than any fraternal & moral lesson that the English Masonic inventers of the Hiram Abiff legend attempted to illustrate.





BullDozer Harrell said:


> If we remember the definition of Masonry that has now become classic, "it's a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols", we would probably better understand when some brothers such as myself say that *much* of modern Masonry is an innovation. *It's not a continuation of any of the ancient Mystery Traditions or what have you*.


Agreed!


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## Glen Cook (Apr 5, 2017)

coachn said:


> Indeed!  Many an imaginary snipe hunt for all those who do not know any better.


Hm.  Aren't all snipe hunts imaginary?


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## Ripcord22A (Apr 5, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Hm.  Aren't all snipe hunts imaginary?


Nothing better then getting drunk and giving a private a mine probe and an empty sand bag and taking em out to the back 40 and telling them they can't go back to bed till they catch 1.  And the only way to catch em is to make their mating call of "who who whoty whoooo".....or so I've heard....lol

Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## coachn (Apr 6, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Hm.  Aren't all snipe hunts imaginary?


LOL!  Nice play on words Bro.

But seriously, not always.  Freemasonic snipe hunts usually occur in member's heads.  Rarely do they involve any actual scholarly efforts or field work to substantiate their claims, hence the addition of the "imaginary".  Most of these snipe hunts are "Imaginary"!  If they were "real" hunts, the "hunters" would eventually come to know how foolish their claims are.


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Luigi Visentin said:


> First of all, Happy New Year!
> Likely the Mithraism can have influenced Masonry but, according to the Legend of the Craft, Masons were basically Christians, at least from Diocletian onwards. The problem is that what we know about Mithraism comes mainly from later Christians writers in a period were all what was not Christian was an enemy and, likely, misunderstood and what has been "rebuild" my authors like Franz Cumont, who, however have included a lot of personal interpretations in his researches. As far as I have understood Mithraism was not exactly a real religion but better a sort of sacralisation of the army and of military life and this has allowed a sort of cohabitation till when the Christianity definitely took the power.
> 
> The "basically" above means that if mainly they were Christians they considered "brothers" also non Christians who made the same job.



Hello, Luigi!
Hope your research goes well.
Pike in his book, named "Porch and middle chamber" writes that Origins of Masonry come from -- Essenes, Jewish sect.
For your information.


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## Elexir (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Hello, Luigi!
> Hope your research goes well.
> Pike in his book, named "Porch and middle chamber" writes that Origins of Masonry come from -- Essenes, Jewish sect.
> For your information.



Well Pike wrote a lot of things. Question is, how good of an authority is he?


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Elexir said:


> Well Pike wrote a lot of things. Question is, how good of an authority is he?



Dude.
Pike is the baddest.
Absolute Authority.
Even more badass than Mackey.
If you'll be in D.C. -- visit House of The Temple: "lots of Pike" out there...


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## Elexir (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Dude.
> Pike is the baddest.
> Absolute Authority.
> Even more badass than Mackey.
> If you'll be in D.C. -- visit House of The Temple: "lots of Pike" out there...



Not sure Im gonna visit the US. Thing is, he was pretty late in the game.


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Elexir said:


> Not sure Im gonna visit the US. Thing is, he was pretty late in the game.



lol.
He is "first", dude, developer, the boss of "Mother" Council.
All Patents come from The Council to all over The World.
All Blue Lodges are being governed by this Council, where Pike was the 33° Boss!


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## Elexir (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> lol.
> He is "first", dude, developer, the boss of "Mother" Council.
> All Patents come from The Council to all over The World.
> All Blue Lodges are being governed by this Council, where Pike was the 33° Boss!



No. The rituals used in my juristiction was completed before Pike was even born. He had no control over anyone outside of the US.
The same goes for the rest of Europe where freemasonic high degrees where in full swing even before Pike was born


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Elexir said:


> No. The rituals used in my juristiction was completed before Pike was even born. He had no control over anyone outside of the US.
> The same goes for the rest of Europe where freemasonic high degrees where in full swing even before Pike was born



Dude.
I think we're talking about "different things", but, I think I understand you.
I'm not saying: "Pike had control".
I'm trying to tell:
Supreme Council 33°, SJ, is the Governor of all other lodges (Patents).
And Pike was authority in this Council.
Don't you say during the "Master Mason degree initiation ritual" that you're going to serve the Order, Grand Master & Supreme Council 33°?


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## Elexir (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Dude.
> I think we're talking about "different things", but, I think I understand you.
> I'm not saying: "Pike had control".
> I'm trying to tell:
> ...



No AASR SJ governs the units under them and nothing else.

The schottish rite dont even exist in regular form here in Sweden as we work in a rather special way (look at the appendant bodies section "swedish rite")

I am forbidden to reveal what goes on in ritual itself but the highest authority here is the Grand Master.

Again, when where my juristiction was created and rituals developed AA(S)R didnt even exist.


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Elexir said:


> No AASR SJ governs the units under them and nothing else.
> 
> The schottish rite dont even exist in regular form here in Sweden as we work in a rather special way (look at the appendant bodies section "swedish rite")
> 
> ...



Don't you have "Supreme Council 33° for Sweden"?(local)


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## Elexir (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Don't you have "Supreme Council 33° for Sweden"?(local)



No.

We dont have any real appendant bodies since our system has high degrees built into it.

These degrees are governd by the Grand master.


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Elexir said:


> No.
> 
> We dont have any real appendant bodies since our system has high degrees built into it.
> 
> These degrees are governd by the Grand master.



The information from your official website says that: there was Patent, Elexir. Probably from France or England. Not possible to ascertain exactly.


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## Elexir (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> The information from your official website says that: there was Patent, Elexir. Probably from France or England. Not possible to ascertain exactly.



It was from France for the first three degrees.
It was recived in 1735.
Begining in the 1760s a lot of things happend and the swedish rite was created by amongst other Charles XIII of sweden and was finished by the same time the supreme coincil was formed.


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## Winter (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Dude.
> Pike is the baddest.
> Absolute Authority.
> Even more badass than Mackey.
> If you'll be in D.C. -- visit House of The Temple: "lots of Pike" out there...


I'm a big fan of Pike myself. I enjoy his writing. But you still need to take his writing with a grain of salt and put it into context of the time he was writing in and his audience. The Essenes did NOT create Freemasonry. 

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## Winter (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> I'm trying to tell:
> Supreme Council 33°, SJ, is the Governor of all other lodges (Patents).
> And Pike was authority in this Council.
> Don't you say during the "Master Mason degree initiation ritual" that you're going to serve the Order, Grand Master & Supreme Council 33°?



No and No.  None of that is correct.  

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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Winter said:


> I'm a big fan of Pike myself. I enjoy his writing. But you still need to take his writing with a grain of salt and put it into context of the time he was writing in and his audience. The Essenes did NOT create Freemasonry.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



What are "secrets" of society nowadays, sir?


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## Winter (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> What are "secrets" of society nowadays, sir?


See. These are the types of questions that make nobody here want to take you seriously. 

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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Winter said:


> No and No.  None of that is correct.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



How "no"?!
Pike writes about rituals detailly in his books, all catechisms, everything!
There are words: "About serving Supreme Council 33°".


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Winter said:


> See. These are the types of questions that make nobody here want to take you seriously.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



I think there can be no "secrets", when we live in Information Age today.
But why you hiding members & don't let profanes visiting lodge meetings?


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## Winter (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> I think there can be no "secrets", when we live in Information Age today.
> But why you hiding members & don't let profanes visiting lodge meetings?


Good thing what you think isn't how we make our decisions. And again, Pike isn't authoritative. Just because he wrote something doesn't make it fact.  

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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Winter said:


> Good thing what you think isn't how we make our decisions. And again, Pike isn't authoritative. Just because he wrote something doesn't make it fact.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



Why then he has such huge respect?
In Washington DC, in House of The Temple there's museum, statue, books, etc.
Resting on your logic:
No one is authoritative in Masonry.
Absurd.


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## Elexir (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Why then he has such huge respect?
> In Washington DC, in House of The Temple there's museum, statue, books, etc.
> Resting on your logic:
> No one is authoritative in Masonry.
> Absurd.



So the US is the whole world? 
Here in Sweden he has no big influence and thats the case with most of the world.


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Elexir said:


> So the US is the whole world?
> Here in Sweden he has no big influence and thats the case with most of the world.



Yes.
Mother Council.
Supreme Council 33°, SJ, is governing all Supreme Councils 33° all over the World by giving them Patents for works.


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## Elexir (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Yes.
> Mother Council.
> Supreme Council 33°, SJ, is governing all Supreme Councils 33° all over the World by giving them Patents for works.



So? Freemasonry existed prior to the supreme councils anyway.


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## Winter (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Yes.
> Mother Council.
> Supreme Council 33°, SJ, is governing all Supreme Councils 33° all over the World by giving them Patents for works.


The supreme council governs Scottish Rite. Not Craft Masonry. And no author is authoritative or speaks for Freemasonry as a whole. Not even Pike. Being well regarded for his work is not the same thing as being authoritative. You really need to get your facts straight of you are going to come here and argue things like this.  

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## coachn (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> I think there can be no "secrets", when we live in Information Age today.


No matter what information is available, when you have only the ability to see through apprentice's eyes, the secrets contained within that information are secure from your grasp.


Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> But why you hiding members & don't let profanes visiting lodge meetings?


Ya see, you just told me you're not a freemason.  Thanks for that.


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Elexir said:


> So? Freemasonry existed prior to the supreme councils anyway.



Why you arguing, I don't understand, with no sense.
Scottish Rite is for Master Masons to understand deeply Teachings of Craft. It's united. One Free-masonry.


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Winter said:


> The supreme council governs Scottish Rite. Not Craft Masonry. And no author is authoritative or speaks for Freemasonry as a whole. Not even Pike. Being well regarded for his work is not the same thing as being authoritative. You really need to get your facts straight of you are going to come here and argue things like this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



You're lying, Sir.
Or, just, frankly have lack of information.
Excuse me.


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## Winter (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Why you arguing, I don't understand, with no sense.
> Scottish Rite is for Master Masons to understand deeply Teachings of Craft. It's united. One Free-masonry.


Scottish Rite is an appending body that Master Masons have no obligation to join and that has zero governance over Lodges of Master Masons. Might I suggest you pick up a copy of Freemasonry for Dummies by W.Bro. Hoddap. Maybe that will help you get how Masonic organizations work since you won't listen to actual Freemasons. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Elexir (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Why you arguing, I don't understand, with no sense.
> Scottish Rite is for Master Masons to understand deeply Teachings of Craft. It's united. One Free-masonry.



Again other rites may have other degrees that serves this purpose wich is the case for the swedish rite amongst other. 
There exist a myriad of high degree rite (or appendant bodies) and the scottish rite is only one and not even the only scotthish rite.


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## Winter (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> You're lying, Sir.
> Or, just, frankly have lack of information.
> Excuse me.


Hahaha. You're a trip. I think we are at the point where we can consider you a troll. 

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## Elexir (Mar 6, 2019)

Winter said:


> Hahaha. You're a trip. I think we are at the point where we can consider you a troll.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



Nah, trolls are entertaning at least..


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## Winter (Mar 6, 2019)

Elexir said:


> Nah, trolls are entertaning at least..


True. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was just misinformed. But he's obviously only here to bait with intentionally inflammatory posts. 

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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 6, 2019)

Winter said:


> Scottish Rite is an appending body that Master Masons have no obligation to join and that has zero governance over Lodges of Master Masons. Might I suggest you pick up a copy of Freemasonry for Dummies by W.Bro. Hoddap. Maybe that will help you get how Masonic organizations work since you won't listen to actual Freemasons.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



I know there's "no obligation".
I'm just exposing the organization.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 6, 2019)

Winter said:


> See. These are the types of questions that make nobody here want to take you seriously.


Exactly!


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## Brother JC (Mar 6, 2019)

The Supreme Council SJ doesn’t even govern all of the US! And they have nothing to do with ANYTHING other that the Rite in those states it covers.
And Pike got the rituals from someone else before he rewrote and retranslated them. Incorrectly, by the way.


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## Winter (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> I know there's "no obligation".
> I'm just exposing the organization.


The only thing you are exposing is your own ignorance. I'm genuinely curious. What flavor of Anti-Mason are you? One of the evangelical types that pass out Jack Chick pamphlets? The anti religious types that hate anything that even looks religious? The strict Muslim type that hates Freemasonry for even a supposed Jewish connection? Come on, you can tell us. 

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## Warrior1256 (Mar 6, 2019)

Winter said:


> The supreme council governs Scottish Rite. Not Craft Masonry. And no author is authoritative or speaks for Freemasonry as a whole. Not even Pike. Being well regarded for his work is not the same thing as being authoritative. You really need to get your facts straight of you are going to come here and argue things like this.


It appears that trying to reason with this guy is a waste of time. On the other hand he may just be yanking our chains to get a reaction.


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## Winter (Mar 6, 2019)

Warrior1256 said:


> It appears that trying to reason with this guy is a waste of time. On the other hand he may just be yanking our chains to get a reaction.


From his comment it seems pretty clear he is just another anti Masonic idiot trying to "expose" the organization. Whatever that means. 

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## Luigi Visentin (Mar 6, 2019)

Wow! How many messages in one day only!  Unfortunately for a flame! 
Sorry I have been away for a lot of time but I was busy with the new version of my book and I'm translating it in English ... alone (Gulp!)
I have some development in the research as I have found an ancient organization which was very similar to the one of the ancient lodges. The system around this organization explains also the basic mechanism which has allowed the development of the very early Scottish Rite, basically when it was not existing and, at his place, there were only the _Rite of Heredom_ or _Perfection_ and _The council of emperors of the east and west_. The more strange thing is that existed a non Masonic organization that shared a similar tradition!
My only problem is to find an editor. Otherway I will proceed with self publishing!


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## Luigi Visentin (Mar 6, 2019)

By the way, the theory of Pike is only one of the 28 theories existing on the birth of Freemasonry..... mine is the 29th!


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## Luigi Visentin (Mar 6, 2019)

If it would be "Mithraims" I would have written "mithraism". Masonry has taken a lot from mithraism but because it was a sacralization of the army, not because it was a religion. The organization is another one. However I do not say that this organization is the origin of Freemasonry but, more likely, middle age Freemasons took inspiration from this organization to create its own lodge organization. The mithraic elements are a puzzling component: they could indicate that the connection between the ancient organization and the middle ages ones could be real. Unfortunately this can not be proved.


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## coachn (Mar 6, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> I know there's "no obligation".
> *I'm just exposing the organization*.


You are mistaken. The only thing you are exposing is your ignorant malevolent disrespectful character.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 7, 2019)

Luigi Visentin said:


> My only problem is to find an editor. Otherway I will proceed with self publishing!





Luigi Visentin said:


> Masonry has taken a lot from mithraism but because it was a sacralization of the army, not because it was a religion.





Luigi Visentin said:


> However I do not say that this organization is the origin of Freemasonry but, more likely, middle age Freemasons took inspiration from this organization to create its own lodge organization.


Very interesting Brother!


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 7, 2019)

Brother JC said:


> The Supreme Council SJ doesn’t even govern all of the US! And they have nothing to do with ANYTHING other that the Rite in those states it covers.
> And Pike got the rituals from someone else before he rewrote and retranslated them. Incorrectly, by the way.



Why Masonic "Patents" needed?


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 7, 2019)

coachn said:


> You are mistaken. The only thing you are exposing is your ignorant malevolent disrespectful character.



Why "masonic secrets" needed?


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## Brother JC (Mar 7, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Why Masonic "Patents" needed?



A line of succession.


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## Winter (Mar 7, 2019)

Brother JC said:


> A line of succession.



If you respond to him, he'll just keep posting his nonsense.


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 7, 2019)

Brother JC said:


> A line of succession.



What is "line of succession"?
Could you, please, explain a lil bit more detailed?


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## coachn (Mar 8, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Why "masonic secrets" needed?



SIMPLE RESPONSE: To develop maturity in our youths (and to separate the wheat from the chaff!)

MORE IN DEPTH RESPONSE:

https://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2015/10/a-brother-asks-masonic-secrets.html

https://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2016/03/a-brother-asks-why-do-masons-have.html

https://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2016/01/a-brother-asks-freemasonrys-secrets.html

https://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2018/08/a-brother-asks-hidden-mysteries.html


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## Blake Bowden (Mar 8, 2019)

Winter said:


> If you respond to him, he'll just keep posting his nonsense.



Not if he's banned  Sorry for the troll.


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## Brother JC (Mar 8, 2019)

No! I was having fun poking it!


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## coachn (Jun 9, 2020)

JustJames said:
			
		

> It is common that the incoming Master agrees to some version of "discountenance impostors, and all dissenters from the original plan of Masonry."


Original Plan?  What exactly is "The Original Plan of Masonry" and who signed off on it?


			
				JustJames said:
			
		

> Is there an account of the original plan of Masonry?


Wait?!?!  Why are you asking this question when the previous one assumes that there was one?  Are you assuming there was an Original Plan so therefore, there MUST be an account?


			
				JustJames said:
			
		

> If not, who are these dissenters?


Are you talking about _the original dissenters_ or _the new improved crop_?


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## Matt1 (Jun 9, 2020)

Luigi Visentin said:


> Wow! How many messages in one day only!  Unfortunately for a flame!
> Sorry I have been away for a lot of time but I was busy with the new version of my book and I'm translating it in English ... alone (Gulp!)
> I have some development in the research as I have found an ancient organization which was very similar to the one of the ancient lodges. The system around this organization explains also the basic mechanism which has allowed the development of the very early Scottish Rite, basically when it was not existing and, at his place, there were only the _Rite of Heredom_ or _Perfection_ and _The council of emperors of the east and west_. The more strange thing is that existed a non Masonic organization that shared a similar tradition!
> My only problem is to find an editor. Otherway I will proceed with self publishing!



Now, it's probably safest to speak  about "similarities in tradition" than "the origins of a tradition", at least with my very limited knowledge of both history and Freemasonry (still not a Freemason), but this is very interesting. I look forward to learning more.


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## Luigi Visentin (Jun 10, 2020)

The tradition I'm referring is the one told by the Legend of York. Simply this "profane" institution claimed to have started from king David (the masonic one) even if the proofed starts was about 6 centuries later, while ancient Freemasons claimed to have received the first charges from Nimrod (the masonic one).  This, obviously, does not exclude that both traditions could have been both invented.


PS: I have prudently written "similar tradition" but if I have to apply the results of my findings to define the members of this institution I would answer without any doubt: "Operative Masons".


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