# Freemasonry membership for Pakistani people



## Shamil (Sep 23, 2014)

Hello members,

Me and few of my friends have been studying and following illuminati and freemasonry over internet. We have researched alot and are interested to be the part of this global brotherhood.

Unfortunately freemasonry was banned by government of Pakistan in 1973 and the lodges in Pakistan were taken over by the government and now host public offices. Now there isn't any lodge presently in Pakistan.

I had contacted (United Grand Lodge of Egland) UGLE but they also replied that you are not eligible to be a member cause of two reasons i.e. freemasonry is banned in Pakistan and the other being there is currently no lodge in Pakistan.

As freemasonry is above and free from any sort of discrimination i.e. religion, cast, color or creed. I being a Pakistani request you guys to help me get out of this difficult situation and guide me the possible steps which can get me through to be an illuminati.

I have joined this forum with great hopes and I truly believe that I will not be disappointed.

Thanking you for your cooperation in advance.

Kindest,

Shamil.


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## MaineMason (Sep 23, 2014)

You present an interesting predicament. Here in the United States there are 50 Grand Lodges, one for each state, who recognize one another and are recognized as regular by the UGLE, from whence ours came. I don't know this for sure, but my reading of the Constitution of my particular Grand Lodge states that lawfully resident aliens in our jurisdiction for at least one year are eligible to petition a local lodge for membership and may be initiated, passed and raised. (In fact, we have a non-citizen resident alien member of our Blue Lodge).  A US citizen or resident alien from another state moving to mine must also be resident 12 months before petitioning for initiation. 
As far as I know, there is no appendant body calling themselves "Illuminati" which is recognized as an appendant body within my Grand Lodge jurisdiction or that of any other state in the United States. 

I cannot speak for other jurisdictions around the globe. 

I would highly encourage you NOT to join ANY "Masonic" body which is considered irregular or clandestine by the UGLE.


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## dfreybur (Sep 23, 2014)

Shamil said:


> I had contacted (United Grand Lodge of Egland) UGLE but they also replied that you are not eligible to be a member cause of two reasons i.e. freemasonry is banned in Pakistan and the other being there is currently no lodge in Pakistan.



Those are two distinct issues that need to be addressed separately.

One of our lessons is to be an obedient citizen of a just government.  This suggests that any government that bans Masonry is not to be considered just.  Such a government may well be unjust in other ways.  Someone needs to work within the system to reform the government to be just.  You don't need to be a Mason to attempt this type of reform.  Unjust governments are not friendly to reformers so it is not safe to attempt this.  We don't want our adopted family members to put themselves into danger and that's part of why no lodge will knowingly sponsor you within a country where Masonry is banned.

It is possible to become a Mason elsewhere and be a part of a movement in exile to form a Grand Lodge in a country.  If you google for "grand lodge in exile" you will likely find there are groups in New York city and Los Angeles that have been working from the outside for decades to get various countries to allow Masonry.  After the Berlin Wall fell many of these groups moved back to countries that had been part of the Warsaw Pact and there are now thriving grand lodges in those countries, so it is possible for this type of effort to succeed.  To work this path you need to leave home, become a Mason in some other country, then stay there to work the issue.

The two approaches are mutually exclusive for any one individual.


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## MaineMason (Sep 23, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> Those are two distinct issues that need to be addressed separately.
> 
> One of our lessons is to be an obedient citizen of a just government.  This suggests that any government that bans Masonry is not to be considered just.  Such a government may well be unjust in other ways.  Someone needs to work within the system to reform the government to be just.  You don't need to be a Mason to attempt this type of reform.  Unjust governments are not friendly to reformers so it is not safe to attempt this.  We don't want our adopted family members to put themselves into danger and that's part of way no lodge will knowingly sponsor you within a country where Masonry is banned.
> 
> ...


Exactly, and as I suggested in my post, it would necessitate legal residency abroad and generally for one year prior to petitioning the lodge. If someone feels this strongly about it, and can expatriate themselves for a time--it would be a worthwhile exercise. Frankly, if I were going to do that from Pakistan, and had a vocational skill or a good chance of being accepted to study abroad, I would look to Canada.


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## Mike Martin (Sep 24, 2014)

Shamil said:


> Me and few of my friends have been studying and following illuminati and freemasonry over internet. We have researched alot and are interested to be the part of this global brotherhood.
> 
> Unfortunately freemasonry was banned by government of Pakistan in 1973 and the lodges in Pakistan were taken over by the government and now host public offices. Now there isn't any lodge presently in Pakistan.
> 
> I had contacted (United Grand Lodge of Egland) UGLE but they also replied that you are not eligible to be a member cause of two reasons i.e. freemasonry is banned in Pakistan and the other being there is currently no lodge in Pakistan. As freemasonry is above and free from any sort of discrimination i.e. religion, cast, color or creed. I being a Pakistani request you guys to help me get out of this difficult situation and guide me the possible steps which can get me through to be an illuminati.


 
Hi Shamil,

I am afraid that the answer you have received from my Grand Lodge is the only correct one from a Masonic point of view.

Your government, through a misunderstanding of what Freemasonry is, banned the pastime and others of western origin (ie Round Table, Lions, etc) in 1972 and so it is not possible to be a Freemason in your country. Freemasonry has no view on your government other than it has done what it has done. Freemasons promise to be good citizens which means abiding by the Laws of whatever country they find themselves in.

However, I would also add that it is clear from your few words that you (in common with your government) do not understand that Freemasonry is only a Fraternity, it is the oldest and most widespread Fraternity but it is still only a Fraternity. It is not above the Law of any land.

The reality is that there are only two ways that you could join a Lodge and that would be if you were to emigrate to a country where it has not been outlawed or if your own government was to relax the ban it has placed on it .


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## Sam1514 (Dec 21, 2015)

All I want to ask is that is there no lodge in exile in Pakistan??? Because I want to become a mason and it is difficult for me to travel abroad while I'm going through the restricted age of initiation so it would be really help full if I could be initiated here in Pakistan (Asia)

Thank You


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## Mike Martin (Dec 21, 2015)

Sam1514 said:


> All I want to ask is that is there no lodge in exile in Pakistan??? Because I want to become a mason and it is difficult for me to travel abroad while I'm going through the restricted age of initiation so it would be really help full if I could be initiated here in Pakistan (Asia)
> 
> Thank You


Surely you have read the answers above? Just to be 100% clear there is no Freemasonry in Pakistan!


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## dfreybur (Dec 22, 2015)

I can find the Grand Lodge of Iran in Exile sponsored in the US.  I see no sign there is a Grand Lodge of Pakistan in Exile.

You could move to the US, become a citizen, become a brother, get your jurisdiction to sponsor a Grand Lodge in Exile.  The jurisdictions that do this or similar are Grand Lodge of New York, Grand Lodge of California, Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Oklahoma.

Or you can stay home and use whatever influence you can build locally to move your own government in milder directions.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 22, 2015)

Serious stuff indeed! This is the first I have ever heard of a lodge in exile. This is a GREAT forum for a new MM to learn things.Best of luck to our would be brother in Pakistan.


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## dfreybur (Dec 27, 2015)

Near WWII a few grand lodges in exile were formed for countries in the Soviet Bloc.  After the Berlin Wall fell they were instrumental in moving Masonry back to eastern Europe.

There are jurisdictions in Turkey, Lebanon, India, Georgia (former Soviet Republic) and other countries bordering on Muslim majority which can serve the same function should Muslim majority countries join Turkey in moderation and separation of mosque and state.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 27, 2015)

And Kazakhstan


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## hanzosbm (Dec 30, 2015)

Shamil said:


> ...and guide me the possible steps which can get me through to be an illuminati.


The illuminati hasn't existed for hundreds of years, despite what some nearly-illiterate hip hop stars might say.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 30, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> The illuminati hasn't existed for hundreds of years, despite what some nearly-illiterate hip hop stars might say.


Lol, very true.


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## Sam1514 (Jan 23, 2016)

Can't the Masonic masters all over the world ask for freemasonry to be allowed in Pakistan so that Pakistani people could also take part in masonic activities and try to make themselves better.... And there is a lot of potential for freemasonry here in Pakistan as young people are ready to be initiated


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## dfreybur (Jan 24, 2016)

Sam1514 said:


> Can't the Masonic masters all over the world ask for freemasonry to be allowed in Pakistan so that Pakistani people could also take part in masonic activities and try to make themselves better.... And there is a lot of potential for freemasonry here in Pakistan as young people are ready to be initiated



Our landmarks forbid the discussion of politics in our assemblies, so there is no mechanism by which to make such a request.  Also consider that as the only Pakistani citizens who are Brothers are men who emigrated to other countries the number of constituents effected is tiny.

Plenty of brothers pray that our ways spread across the rest of the world.  The one we ask is powerful but is less involved in partisan politics than we are.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 24, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Plenty of brothers pray that our ways spread across the rest of the world. The one we ask is powerful but is less involved in partisan politics than we are.


SMIB.


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## MaineMason (Jan 24, 2016)

Sam1514 said:


> Can't the Masonic masters all over the world ask for freemasonry to be allowed in Pakistan so that Pakistani people could also take part in masonic activities and try to make themselves better.... And there is a lot of potential for freemasonry here in Pakistan as young people are ready to be initiated


It must be up to your Grand Lodge, which I believe is not working at the moment.


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## Mike Martin (Jan 25, 2016)

Sam1514 said:


> Can't the Masonic masters all over the world ask for freemasonry to be allowed in Pakistan so that Pakistani people could also take part in masonic activities and try to make themselves better.... And there is a lot of potential for freemasonry here in Pakistan as young people are ready to be initiated


You see in the real world Freemasons do not have this kind of power!


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 25, 2016)

Mike Martin said:


> You see in the real world Freemasons do not have this kind of power!


Very true!


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## Glen Cook (Jan 25, 2016)

Mike Martin said:


> You see in the real world Freemasons do not have this kind of power!


So that's why my letters to the UN keep getting returned.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 25, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> So that's why my letters to the UN keep getting returned.


Lol!!!!!


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## acjohnson53 (Jan 25, 2016)

that's funny cause I was at local grocery store and I shining my light, ie ball cap and a young man ask me if I was a Mason, I replied I am, then he asked me if I believe in the illuminati and I replied naw I'm a Baptist and I believe in God..I think that baffled him.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 26, 2016)

acjohnson53 said:


> that's funny cause I was at local grocery store and I shining my light, ie ball cap and a young man ask me if I was a Mason, I replied I am, then he asked me if I believe in the illuminati and I replied naw I'm a Baptist and I believe in God..I think that baffled him.


Lol....good one!


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## Glen Cook (Feb 12, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> This might have to do with the belief that "freemasonry was infiltrated by zionist jews" that some people hold to be true based upon historical events that happened within this century of freemasonry
> 
> There are still many muslim countries however who still accept freemasonry.
> 
> OP , I know Pakistan is not far from India.. I've heard India has many lodges



Umm, what historical events?

Other than Turkey, what Muslim countries still accept Freemasonry?


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## Glen Cook (Feb 12, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> I just looked it up. I was so wrong.. Guess more muslim countries than I thought banned masonry! That sucks because I think muslims have alot to offer just like any other race or religion of people who believe in an omnipotent God


And if a brother Mason doesn't believe in an "omnipotent" God?


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## Glen Cook (Feb 12, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> I mean wouldnt he still have to believe in THE MOST HIGH..? Sure he can believe in other gods or w/e.. but as long as he believes in the MOST HIGH.. Ifeel like if I was a mason i'd feel right there with him


I'm unaware of a GL which frames the belief with those words. To which GL do you refer?


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## Bloke (Feb 13, 2016)

(Amused)


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## Glen Cook (Feb 13, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> WHAT? I'm not a mason. Is that not a term you guys use? I know GAOTU is one.. Thats why I'm here though. Trying to learn more about Freemasonry! Woohoo!


Then I would recommend you not presume to instruct as to the requirements of Freemasonry


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## Glen Cook (Feb 13, 2016)

I assumed nothing. You have presumed to tell us in which countries Masonry is allowed, the nature of the requirement for a belief in a Supreme Being, factors involved in an investigation, how PHA brothers address each other. ..It's an open forum and you have demonstrated that one may post as one wishes. On the other hand, we may criticize as we wish.

 However, my criticism is finished.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 13, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> Yeah you're quite the critic.. You've already criticized numerous posts of mine. You expect alot out of me.. but nonetheless, I appreciate it. Your concern is evident.
> 
> As someone older and knowledgable on the subject, you should learn to guide, instead of criticize. Just my opinion. I reached out to you in pms too asking questions but you ignore those.. i think you like my posts better


I blocked you. I've not seen any.


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## Randy81 (Feb 13, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> Yeah you're quite the critic.. You've already criticized numerous posts of mine. You expect alot out of me.. but nonetheless, I appreciate it. Your concern is evident.
> 
> As someone older and knowledgable on the subject, you should learn to guide, instead of criticize. Just my opinion. I reached out to you in pms too asking questions but you ignore those.. i think you like my posts better


Are you seriously attempting to correct Brother Cook on something? On some threads you have seemed truly interested but you must understand on many you've been quite out of line. You've been vulgar with many of your comments and frankly it's not really welcomed here on a forum that in my opinion consists of some very good men.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 13, 2016)

Randy81 said:


> Are you seriously attempting to correct Brother Cook on something? On some threads you have seemed truly interested but you must understand on many you've been quite out of line. You've been vulgar with many of your comments and frankly it's not really welcomed here on a forum that in my opinion consists of some very good men.


My mother-in-law is mad as her position has been usurped


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## Randy81 (Feb 13, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> Never did.  I like him. I told him we should be friends but he blocked me apparently.. :[
> 
> Your negative energy is not cool either though.. SO reactive.. Need to sharpen up seriously.. Do you even practice the Kabbalism.. Why so severe?


I'm not trying to have negative energy with you. You asked a guy how his "bootyhole" felt after initiation. You've also brought up double ended dildos in your comments. Every ritual I've been apart of has been very serious and is a big deal for the guy going through it. Had you known these guys it may be ok to "joke" about it but it's uncalled for here. I have nothing personal against you, however, it seems to me you're making a joke about our fraternity.


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## Randy81 (Feb 13, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> Curiosity and interest are what leads one to joining a forum like this. Personality and self expression is what leads me to make posts like I do. I'm not always as giddy and jokey. It depends on what vibration I'm on. But by not holding back any of my personality, whilst also coming from a good place, and not trying to offend anyone, I learn about how people who are apart of this organization that I am interested in possibly joining one day react to it. I practice Kabbalah.. and have been involved in Spiritual Satanism in the past.. I have been in the darkness, and within the darkness, you encompass knowledge that you cannot within the light.. that only comes at low vibrations.. and now I am on the middle pillar path of the Kabbalah, going towards the light, encompassing knowledge and experiences that cannot be found on the lower vibrations of the Dark...
> 
> I'm alot wiser than my expressions say. That is why I say do not judge a book by its cover.. My face value is not my worth.
> 
> I stand by my comments. I feel they were fun and have no doubt that there are individuals out there who would get a kick out of them.


You're tap dancing around the true point of my statements. I'm not debating your knowledge or intelligence. I'm saying what you said wasn't right. They were a poor attempt at humor at best.


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## Randy81 (Feb 13, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> You are entitled to your opinion. But your reactivity is apparent. It's reactive behavior. You choose to put energy toward that which you do not like. Does that reflect upon me or does that reflect upon yourself?
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> If you wish for me to leave, as probably does Glen Cook... I will thank you for the experiences here, let you know that have been "enlightening" (there was a reason I was here.. interest).. and simply leave and go about my business.


Whatever you say partner... What lodge are you petitioning by the way?


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## Randy81 (Feb 13, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> My interest has been dwindling since I've joined this forum. So I am undecided. Only time will tell.
> Just being honest, once again.


Lol... Well my friend, I was being "proactive" by asking you something personal. That wasn't "reactive" to anything... Am I getting the hang of it?


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## Bill Lins (Feb 15, 2016)

Shamil said:


> Hello members,
> 
> Me and few of my friends have been studying and following illuminati and freemasonry over internet.
> 
> ...


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## Dontrell Stroman (Feb 16, 2016)

Randy81 said:


> What lodge are you petitioning by the way?


  


Sent from my 831C using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


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## Shaheen Iqbal (Jan 24, 2018)

Dear Shamil

I hope my message not reach 4 years too late. As a Pakistani you can not only become a Freemason but we still have two surviving lodges from the Grand District Lodge of Pakistan; Quetta Lodge and Emerald isle Lodge. Please feel free to contact me if you are still interested in freemasonary. 




Shamil said:


> Hello members,
> 
> Me and few of my friends have been studying and following illuminati and freemasonry over internet. We have researched alot and are interested to be the part of this global brotherhood.
> 
> ...


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## Bloke (Jan 24, 2018)

Shaheen Iqbal said:


> Dear Shamil
> 
> I hope my message not reach 4 years too late. As a Pakistani you can not only become a Freemason but we still have two surviving lodges from the Grand District Lodge of Pakistan; Quetta Lodge and Emerald isle Lodge. Please feel free to contact me if you are still interested in freemasonary.


What Grand Lodge do these operate under ? The problem is not being Pakistani, we have Pakistani Freemasons, the problem is not nationality, it's geography - I would assume the two lodges you speak of are in exile ?


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## Shaheen Iqbal (Jan 25, 2018)

Indeed they are lodges in exile. Emerald Isle; meet in Dublin Whilst Quetta No. 2333 meet on London.  You might find thsi an interesting article to read;  https://tribune.com.pk/story/1424181/masons-battle-free-lodges-punjab-govt/


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## Mike Martin (Jan 25, 2018)

Shaheen Iqbal said:


> I hope my message not reach 4 years too late. As a Pakistani you can not only become a Freemason but we still have two surviving lodges from the Grand District Lodge of Pakistan; Quetta Lodge and Emerald isle Lodge. Please feel free to contact me if you are still interested in freemasonary.


You are mistaken on both counts! Neither of those Lodges meet in Pakistan and haven't done so since the 1983 ban on Freemasonry.

Emerald Isle Lodge No. 19 (GL of Ireland) moved from Pakistan to Dublin in 1992. The Lodge continues to operate from Molesworth Street, Dublin
Meanwhile Quetta Lodge No. 2333 (GL of England) also moved following the ban and today meets in Freemasons' Hall London.

So the original answers stand, despite your assertion, that there are no Lodge in Pakistan!


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## Bloke (Jan 25, 2018)

Shaheen Iqbal said:


> Indeed they are lodges in exile. Emerald Isle; meet in Dublin Whilst Quetta No. 2333 meet on London.  You might find thsi an interesting article to read;  https://tribune.com.pk/story/1424181/masons-battle-free-lodges-punjab-govt/


I've read of this before... Interestingly, there is atleast 1 Masonic Temple still standing in Vietnam which was seized by the government. I'm pleases to see they are still standing in Pakistan and I have read of these before. It would be a shame if they were knocked over.

It sounds like they are playing the waiting game...  are all the lodges claiming the building under the same GL ? I hope they vest their claim into the warrant and they by Trust, so "heirs" can continue that fight..


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## Elexir (Jan 25, 2018)

Bloke said:


> I've read of this before... Interestingly, there is atleast 1 Masonic Temple still standing in Vietnam which was seized by the government. I'm pleases to see they are still standing in Pakistan and I have read of these before. It would be a shame if they were knocked over.
> 
> It sounds like they are playing the waiting game...  are all the lodges claiming the building under the same GL ? I hope they vest their claim into the warrant and they by Trust, so "heirs" can continue that fight..



In many cases the masonic buildings in Pakistan are used by the goverment. Wheter the lodges claim them or not they dont belong to any lodge at this time.


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## Bloke (Jan 25, 2018)

Elexir said:


> In many cases the masonic buildings in Pakistan are used by the goverment. Wheter the lodges claim them or not they dont belong to any lodge at this time.


You sure ? If they held title and they were illegally seized and they were owned by  a Warrant under a Trust Deed or under a Trust Deed or some other legal structure, the ownership would often vest in GL or another body if the lodge ceased to operate. The legal battle suggests there is an argument that the current occupiers might not be the legal owners.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 25, 2018)

Bloke said:


> You sure ? If they held title and they were illegally seized and they were owned by  a Warrant under a Trust Deed or under a Trust Deed or some other legal structure, the ownership would often vest in GL or another body if the lodge ceased to operate. The legal battle suggests there is an argument that the current occupiers might not be the legal owners.


Ahh. The attorneys can make money. Good. Good.


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## Bloke (Jan 25, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Ahh. The attorneys can make money. Good. Good.


Not always, this can be a commercial disaster which can see a brother working for free for Freemasons


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## Glen Cook (Jan 26, 2018)

Bloke said:


> Not always, this can be a commercial disaster which can see a brother working for free for Freemasons


Bad. Bad.


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## Bloke (Jan 26, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Bad. Bad.


There there... its only a bad bad dream...


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## Elexir (Jan 26, 2018)

Bloke said:


> You sure ? If they held title and they were illegally seized and they were owned by  a Warrant under a Trust Deed or under a Trust Deed or some other legal structure, the ownership would often vest in GL or another body if the lodge ceased to operate. The legal battle suggests there is an argument that the current occupiers might not be the legal owners.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasons_Lodge_Building_(Karachi)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonic_Temple_(Lahore)

Around the world there are plenty of examples of laws wich are used to seize goods or properties from criminals and since freemasonry is illegal in Pakistan Im not that sure that they could use that argument at this point.
If Freemasonry became legal on the other hand. ..


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## CLewey44 (Jan 26, 2018)

Even if it were legal, I would never join in Pakistan or somewhere unstable like that.


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## dfreybur (Jan 26, 2018)

CLewey44 said:


> Even if it were legal, I would never join in Pakistan or somewhere unstable like that.



I suggest that an active lodge is a force for stability in its area.  Where I in an unstable area, I would want to help in such a small way.  Different strokes for different folks.


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## Shaheen Iqbal (Jan 26, 2018)

Mike Martin said:


> You are mistaken on both counts! Neither of those Lodges meet in Pakistan and haven't done so since the 1983 ban on Freemasonry.
> 
> Emerald Isle Lodge No. 19 (GL of Ireland) moved from Pakistan to Dublin in 1992. The Lodge continues to operate from Molesworth Street, Dublin
> Meanwhile Quetta Lodge No. 2333 (GL of England) also moved following the ban and today meets in Freemasons' Hall London.
> ...




Fraternal Greetings Good Brother Mike

Considering the combative nature of your response I was not even sure if I wanted to respond to you but in the spirit of brotherly love I believe that I must give you the benefit of the doubt; perhaps you never meant to com across as being hostile?

In my original message I did not suggest that the 2 lodges are still meeting in Pakistan. In my following message I clearly stated that they both were lodges in exile.

During the period 1975 to 1983 the District Grand Lodge of Pakistan also held two meetings at Tarbela Dam under the banner of Quetta Lodge. During the period Quetta Lodge was stationed in Kundian (Chashma Barrage Colony) and Tarbela Dam The ladies festival celebrated every year in traditional style and was a very popular event with the ladies.

Unfortunately in the light of the foregoing an informal meeting of the members of the Lodge was held in Islamabad when it was decided that under the prevailing circumstances there was no future for the Lodge in Pakistan and as such it should be moved to London until such time as Freemasonry was again made lawful in Pakistan.

The District Grand Lodge of Pakistan and the United Grand Lodge of England gave their blessings to the above move and as a result Quetta Lodge held an Emergent Meeting in the Freemasons' Hall, Great Queens Street, London on Saturday 3rd March 1984 and thereafter has been regularly meeting at the above Freemasons Hall four times a year.

I am a great Proponent and am hopeful that one day freemasonry will one day return to Pakistan but for that we need to the link to Pakistan going. Four of our six Pakistani Freemason Petitioners have already passed away. Once the final two are gone we loose our link to Pakistan and may be forced to throw in the towel. Just like a living entity once a lodge dies it cannot be brought.

Therefore if the District Grand Lodge of Pakistan is to survive and have a continued link in Pakistan it will need new masons from Pakistan with the ability to frequently travel to UK for meetings.


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## Shaheen Iqbal (Jan 26, 2018)

Bloke said:


> I've read of this before... Interestingly, there is atleast 1 Masonic Temple still standing in Vietnam which was seized by the government. I'm pleases to see they are still standing in Pakistan and I have read of these before. It would be a shame if they were knocked over.
> 
> It sounds like they are playing the waiting game...  are all the lodges claiming the building under the same GL ? I hope they vest their claim into the warrant and they by Trust, so "heirs" can continue that fight..



The whole thing was a stitch-up with the intention to seize valuable moveable and immovable Masonic assets. It reminds me of what Phillip the Fair did with the Templar Knights.


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## Shaheen Iqbal (Jan 26, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> I suggest that an active lodge is a force for stability in its area.  Where I in an unstable area, I would want to help in such a small way.  Different strokes for different folks.



Well-Put Fremasonary could be a force for stability in Pakistan.


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## Mike Martin (Jan 29, 2018)

Shaheen Iqbal said:


> I am a great Proponent and am hopeful that one day freemasonry will one day return to Pakistan but for that we need to the link to Pakistan going. Four of our six Pakistani Freemason Petitioners have already passed away. Once the final two are gone we loose our link to Pakistan and may be forced to throw in the towel. Just like a living entity once a lodge dies it cannot be brought.
> Therefore if the District Grand Lodge of Pakistan is to survive and have a continued link in Pakistan it will need new masons from Pakistan with the ability to frequently travel to UK for meetings.


All across Europe during World War 2 and then during the Communist regime in Eastern Europe Freemasonry was banned and deconstructed and when it was no longer banned new Lodges started there naturally, followed quite quickly by new Grand Lodges. If the Pakistani government changes (not a question for Freemasons) its position on Freemasonry it is highly likely that Lodges would spring up there in the same way.

However, it can hardly be considered either sensible or Masonic to encourage someone who lives in a country where Freemasonry is an illegal pastime to risk imprisonment and possibly worse JUST to keep an old Lodge going.


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## Mike Martin (Jan 29, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> I suggest that an active lodge is a force for stability in its area.  Where I in an unstable area, I would want to help in such a small way.  Different strokes for different folks.


Sadly there is quite a difference between being a Freemason in the USA or UK and being one in Pakistan.


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## LK600 (Jan 29, 2018)

Mike Martin said:


> However, it can hardly be considered either sensible or Masonic to encourage someone who lives in a country where Freemasonry is an illegal pastime to risk imprisonment and possibly worse JUST to keep an old Lodge going.



I'm not sure sensible is relevant.  Masonic would depend on several factors, the least of which being what constitutes one's country... the people or the government.  Other factors might be which government are you loyal to?  The one that just got overthrown, or the new one getting ready to be overthrown?  No... I won't be holding someone as anti-masonic based on their decision to stand by a countries people and not support (via inaction) a murderous dictatorship.    I am NOT talking about Pakistan or any other country specifically.  I'm just pointing out the problems with defining something with first world definitions and then holding third world areas to the same.


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## dfreybur (Jan 29, 2018)

Mike Martin said:


> All across Europe during World War 2 and then during the Communist regime in Eastern Europe Freemasonry was banned and deconstructed and when it was no longer banned new Lodges started there naturally, followed quite quickly by new Grand Lodges. If the Pakistani government changes (not a question for Freemasons) its position on Freemasonry it is highly likely that Lodges would spring up there in the same way.



The exception to the rule seems to be Cuba.  During the Cuban revolution the local lodges opposed the tyranny of the previous dictator and so there are now lodges functioning in Cuba.  They stay far away from politics.



> However, it can hardly be considered either sensible or Masonic to encourage someone who lives in a country where Freemasonry is an illegal pastime to risk imprisonment and possibly worse JUST to keep an old Lodge going.



Exactly.  I encourage men in those countries to be active in their local politics and mild in their inclinations.  Working within the system at levels that do not put them in danger.  Some expression like lean in but don't shove, but that's probably too idiomatic to translate into a language other than English.


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## Mike Martin (Jan 29, 2018)

LK600 said:


> I'm not sure sensible is relevant.  Masonic would depend on several factors, the least of which being what constitutes one's country... the people or the government.  Other factors might be which government are you loyal to?  The one that just got overthrown, or the new one getting ready to be overthrown?  No... I won't be holding someone as anti-masonic based on their decision to stand by a countries people and not support (via inaction) a murderous dictatorship.    I am NOT talking about Pakistan or any other country specifically.  I'm just pointing out the problems with defining something with first world definitions and then holding third world areas to the same.


I suspect that you may have read the original post and my response too quickly.


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## Shaheen Iqbal (Jan 29, 2018)

Mike Martin said:


> All across Europe during World War 2 and then during the Communist regime in Eastern Europe Freemasonry was banned and deconstructed and when it was no longer banned new Lodges started there naturally, followed quite quickly by new Grand Lodges. If the Pakistani government changes (not a question for Freemasons) its position on Freemasonry it is highly likely that Lodges would spring up there in the same way.
> 
> However, it can hardly be considered either sensible or Masonic to encourage someone who lives in a country where Freemasonry is an illegal pastime to risk imprisonment and possibly worse JUST to keep an old Lodge going.



Without going into too much details about the case the petitioning freemason of Pakistan have been actively fighting their case in court against the Pakistani government since the 80s and they have never been arrested or jailed. 

Furthermore as you have pointed out its has been deemed illegal for a Pakistani to practice freemasonary in Pakistan. Therefore stating it would be illegal for a Pakistani to practice freemasonary abroad would be like starting it is illegal for a Pakistani to enter a bar and enjoy a drink whilst on holiday.


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## LK600 (Jan 29, 2018)

Mike Martin said:


> I suspect that you may have read the original post and my response too quickly.


You very well could be right.  I have a propensity of becoming defensive on the subject of loyalty to ones government/people (specifically in scenarios where loyalty could be towards someone I would liken to the Nazi's).  Theoretically intended, and not towards any specific country or person.


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## Shaheen Iqbal (Jan 29, 2018)

Mike Martin said:


> Sadly there is quite a difference between being a Freemason in the USA or UK and being one in Pakistan.


Bro Mike, I am just grateful that your opinion is not the general consensus in UGLE or I would have been denied the opportunity of being made a freemason.


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## Mike Martin (Jan 30, 2018)

Shaheen Iqbal said:


> Without going into too much details about the case the petitioning freemason of Pakistan have been actively fighting their case in court against the Pakistani government since the 80s and they have never been arrested or jailed.
> 
> Furthermore as you have pointed out its has been deemed illegal for a Pakistani to practice freemasonary in Pakistan. Therefore stating it would be illegal for a Pakistani to practice freemasonary abroad would be like starting it is illegal for a Pakistani to enter a bar and enjoy a drink whilst on holiday.



I am unclear whether you are purposefully misreading what I have written I do hope not, once again for clarity: My statement is NOT that a Pakistani who lives in a country where Freemasonry is NOT illegal cannot join a Lodge, we have many Freemasons of Pakistani origin here in the UK. My statement and I say again is that encouraging a Pakistani living in Pakistan (where Freemasonry and membership of it is illegal) to become a Freemason and therefore an outlaw and subject to legal action by that State is an "un-masonic" act and is NOT encouraged by the UGLE.


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## dfreybur (Jan 30, 2018)

Shaheen Iqbal said:


> Furthermore as you have pointed out its has been deemed illegal for a Pakistani to practice freemasonary in Pakistan. Therefore stating it would be illegal for a Pakistani to practice freemasonary abroad would be like starting it is illegal for a Pakistani to enter a bar and enjoy a drink whilst on holiday.



My worry is that a Pakistani would become a Freemason while living and working in the west, then return home.  Should he end up in danger for having taken our degrees, that would not be good.

Generally groups that work in exile don't return until they have reformed their mother country.  I'm quite okay with someone working in exile like that.  I worry that going home before the reform works would put someone I adopted into my family in danger.


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## LK600 (Jan 30, 2018)

Mike Martin said:


> encouraging a Pakistani living in Pakistan (where Freemasonry and membership of it is illegal) to become a Freemason and therefore an outlaw and subject to legal action by that State is an "un-masonic" act and is NOT encouraged by the UGLE.



On edit, removed.  I will just say I completely disagree with this philosophy.


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