# Grand Master of Florida Bans Certain Religions



## Frater Cliff Porter (Dec 3, 2012)

The Grand Master of Florida has banned certain religions.  I have written an open letter to him and encourage all to do the same.

http://www.therelevantmason.blogspot.com/2012/12/an-open-letter-to-grand-master-of.html


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## Brent Heilman (Dec 3, 2012)

Great letter Brother. I am astonished that someone would take such a stance. It shows that some do not want to understand other religions or what they teach. This is in the vein of the anti-masonic movements by taking something that is not understood fully and then condemning it on the basis of popular opinion and not truth.


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 3, 2012)

He's a schmuck. "Great Architect of the Universe" could apply to Odin, who directed his brothers to form the world from Ymir's bones. If the soul were not deemed immortal among Odinists, they would never speak of Valhalla or Hel. As for "Wicca", it is far too broad to describe in terms other than "Whoever claims to be Wiccan is one." Gnostics certainly believe in some sort of deity, although their actual architect of the universe (the demiurge) is either an ignorant or evil being and not worthy of worship--the Gnostic God is distant and had nothing to do with creating the universe. Agnostics simply don't know. It is possible to admit to the possibility of something and still be uncertain. The Florida act sounds like a step on the road to attempt to ban Islam, Judaism, even Catholic Christianity based on ever tightening circles of redefinition.


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 3, 2012)

Wow.


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 3, 2012)

No exclusion


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## Brent Heilman (Dec 3, 2012)

Apparently Santeria is okay but Wicca isn't. <sarcasm>Makes sense.</sarcasm>


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## dhouseholder (Dec 3, 2012)

First of all, can someone enlighten me as to just what exactly an "edict" is in GL of Texas Law? I know what the definition is, but if a Grand Master makes an "edict" does it automatically become Grand Lodge Law? Or can he only pass "edicts" when interpreting Grand Lodge Law? 

Second of all, this edict is horrible and I have full confidence it will be repealed. On the other hand I am glad that this issue is being brought into the public light, as I am sure each GL will now discuss and rule on this issue.


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 3, 2012)

no earthly authority


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## SeeKer.mm (Dec 3, 2012)

sad...just sad


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## Pscyclepath (Dec 3, 2012)

There is some precedent in other jurisdictions.  About 5 years ago, the GL of Arkansas "de-petitioned" a candidate who professed himself as an ordained Wiccan, (http://masonicleaks.com/tag/ordained-wiccan/).

The reasoning behind this is a number of edicts incorporated into the Arkansas Masonic Digest which define just what the Grand Lodge considers to be the "one true and living God"... e.g. that God is not a "force" or materialistic animus as many paganistic beliefs typically describe.  Arkansas has codified some guidance in that regard, nd this is probably the same sort of thing that the GL of Florida is trying to do...

Extracted from the Arkansas Masonic Digest, 2012 ed.:
3.7.16 Belief in God and in the immortality of the soul is a cardinal doctrine of Masonry, and it is the sense of the Grand Lodge of Arkansas that *the God of Masonry is the Great Architect of the Universe, the Creator and Preserver of all things, the God of the Bible as well as the God of those who know nothing about its teachings; that the God of Masonry is not a God - a force - a materialistic cause, but the one true and living God to whom we must all account*; and that anyone rejecting these great truths is unworthy of initiation into, or of holding membership in, a Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons. -Pro. 1879, p. 65; amended Pro. 1951, p. 70. 

3.7.17 A belief in a Supreme Being is required of all candidates for the mysteries of Masonry. No atheist can be made a Mason. -Pro. 1877, p. 11. 

3.7.18 Being a deist is not a disqualification for initiation; but the applicant must believe in God and the immortality of the soul. -Pro. 1879, p. 16. 

3.7.19 One who believes in God, but does not believe in the Bible, can be made a Mason, if otherwise worthy. -Pro. 1867, p. 46. 

3.7.20 Hereafter when a candidate presents himself for initiation, before being prepared he shall make affirmative answer to the following question, "Do you seriously declare upon your honor that you believe in the existence of one True and Living God, and in the immortality of the soul?" -Pro. 1907, p. 87. 

3.7.21 Masonry does not bar any man on account of membership in any church. - Pro. 1935, p. 23. 

3.7.22 A member who, in fear of death, joined the Roman Catholic Church, and for the sake of receiving the benefits of the ordinances of that church renounced Masonry, but afterwards recovered and desired to resume his connection with the Fraternity, ought not for said cause to be expelled. Masonry proscribes no man on account of his politics or religion. - Pro. 1880, p. 28-29. 
　

When I took the vows of a Scottish Rite Mason, I promised, among other things, to be a "soldier of liberty" and a "soldier of religious tolerance" on behalf of all mankind... not just within the fraternity.  Every person has, or should have the right and privilege to approach his or her Deity in the way they best see fit.  But does that also mean that someone, for example, who bows down before the baalim, dances before an Asherah pole, passes their children through the fire to Molech, or otherwise worships the starry hosts would make a Mason?  Or someone who senses some animus in the trees and bushes, or spirit of nature?

When I was passed and raised, I also made some promises about following the rules in my local lodge and ultimately within my grand lodge's jurisdiction, which are the rules set forth in the Digest noted above.  If we ever get to be the Grand Master, I might look at those rules and how they might hurt someone, but until then, I've got some promises to keep.


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## David Hill (Dec 3, 2012)

I think that this edict is appalling. I will be writing a letter to the Grand Master of Florida detailing my concerns, and I plan on writing to the Grand Lodge of Texas as it seems to me that Florida is now in violation of the Ancient Landmarks. I encourage everyone to do the same. Br. Cliff's open letter is excellent. Thank you, brother.


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## dhouseholder (Dec 3, 2012)

Pscyclepath said:


> There is some precedent in other jurisdictions.  About 5 years ago, the GL of Arkansas "de-petitioned" a candidate who professed himself as an ordained Wiccan, (http://masonicleaks.com/tag/ordained-wiccan/).
> 
> The reasoning behind this is a number of edicts incorporated into the Arkansas Masonic Digest which define just what the Grand Lodge considers to be the "one true and living God"... e.g. that God is not a "force" or materialistic animus as many paganistic beliefs typically describe.  Arkansas has codified some guidance in that regard, nd this is probably the same sort of thing that the GL of Florida is trying to do...



The amount of intolerance in your state's Grand Lodge makes my heart sad. 



Pscyclepath said:


> When I took the vows of a Scottish Rite Mason, I promised, among other things, to be a "soldier of liberty" and a "soldier of religious tolerance" on behalf of all mankind... not just within the fraternity.  Every person has, or should have the right and privilege to approach his or her Deity in the way they best see fit.  But does that also mean that someone, for example, who bows down before the baalim, dances before an Asherah pole, passes their children through the fire to Molech, or otherwise worships the starry hosts would make a Mason?  Or someone who senses some animus in the trees and bushes, or spirit of nature?


 When has Freemasonry ever taken a man on his faith alone? Many other qualifications make a man a good candidate.



Pscyclepath said:


> When I was passed and raised, I also made some promises about following the rules in my local lodge and ultimately within my grand lodge's jurisdiction, which are the rules set forth in the Digest noted above.  If we ever get to be the Grand Master, I might look at those rules and how they might hurt someone, but until then, I've got some promises to keep.


 Brother you don't have to be Grand Master to affect change in your Grand Lodge.


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## David Hill (Dec 3, 2012)

I have been taking some time to think about this edict in order to ensure that my passions have been properly circumscribed.  Upon reflection, it strikes me that there is likely protocol involved in contacting a Grand Master outside of Texas. Would any brother please shed some light on that protocol? Does a personal missive have to go through the GL of Texas?


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 3, 2012)

the chagrin of the local Deputy


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 3, 2012)

"That's all I have to say about that."


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## Brother JC (Dec 3, 2012)

I cannot express the sadness this edict causes my heart, my soul. That an American Freemason, who has traveled the road for many years, and has reached the highest position within his Jurisdiction, can be so blatantly ignorant and prejudiced, sickens me.

As to contacting him directly, I do not recommend it unless you are the sitting Master of a Lodge within his Jurisdiction.


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't want to belabor this


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 3, 2012)

"And you see how Heaven responded?"


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 4, 2012)

I've added my Â¢Â¢

[video=youtube;46bBWBG9r2o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46bBWBG9r2o[/video]


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## David Hill (Dec 4, 2012)

Thank you for your responses, Br. Daniel. I will be speaking to the WM of my lodge this evening at our stated meeting. I'm aware that this is a Florida issue, but I think that having feedback from other jurisdictions may help put this edict in its proper perspective. Also, I do think that this is fine for open discussion and speculation. However, I think you're exactly right that we should go through proper channels if anyone feels strongly enough to officially let their feelings be known.


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## THurse (Dec 4, 2012)

Free and Accepted.


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 5, 2012)

Godfrey Daniel said:


> In my humble opinion, it certainly does.  And, just a reminder, what you do is a reflection on your mother lodge.
> 
> I am familiar with a situation, much less volatile than this, where the member of a lodge sent a letter directly to the GM of his own state, much to the chagrin of the local Deputy.  These purple-clad Brethren take the chain of command very seriously.



So, all Master Masons are equal, but some are more equal than others?


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 7, 2012)

Whether or not I personally agree is immaterial.


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 7, 2012)

Let's see, if you're a profane according to Florida's new rules, and the GLoTx permits you to partake in Masonic Communication, then Florida is duty-bound to cease recognition of GLoTx...


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## MajaOES (Dec 7, 2012)

I couldn't agree more that what Florida did was wrong.  What worries me is the impact it will make on the affiliated organizations in Florida and possibly in other states.  Many affiliated bodies are shrinking but need the family Masonic heritage to join.  If Florida limits their membership to certain individuals with specific religious beliefs, then they are further shrinking the canidate pool for affiliated bodies.  I hope something could be done about this.


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## widows son (Dec 8, 2012)

I just read the letter and I thought it was excellent. I think the GM of Florida has done something very unmasonic, and probably has caused more problems for Freemasonry as a whole, which we don't need. He should have his apron taken away.


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 9, 2012)

Maybe it's a tempest in a teapot


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## goldwing850108 (Dec 9, 2012)

I feel more harm will be done to masonry by diluting our standards to increase membership numbers. The inclusion of Odinists, Wicca, Atheists or Islam goes against the masonic ritual. We have on our alter the Christian Holy Bible. Masonic ritual refers to passages from the Holy Bible in many occations. For example, Genesis 1:1-3 in the first degree, Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 in the 3rd degree and at masonic funerals. Also Palms 133 and Amos 7:8. No references from other religions or cults. I have recited these passages many times during obligating candidates. I would never allow a Muslim into our lodge or the Koran to lie on our alter. After all, it is not the Baptist or other christian religions that are placing bombs in super markets or on airplanes full of innocent people. You might recall right after 9-11-01 the entire Islamic world were cheering and dancing in the streets with joy after killing 3,000 people in America. Christians teach love not hate. My personal opinion is the Florida G M is correct. Like this or not everything I have said here is the truth.


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## chrmc (Dec 9, 2012)

goldwing850108 said:


> I feel more harm will be done to masonry by diluting our standards to increase membership numbers. The inclusion of Odinists, Wicca, Atheists or Islam goes against the masonic ritual. We have on our alter the Christian Holy Bible. Masonic ritual refers to passages from the Holy Bible in many occations. For example, Genesis 1:1-3 in the first degree, Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 in the 3rd degree and at masonic funerals. Also Palms 133 and Amos 7:8. No references from other religions or cults. I have recited these passages many times during obligating candidates. I would never allow a Muslim into our lodge or the Koran to lie on our alter. After all, it is not the Baptist or other christian religions that are placing bombs in super markets or on airplanes full of innocent people. You might recall right after 9-11-01 the entire Islamic world were cheering and dancing in the streets with joy after killing 3,000 people in America. Christians teach love not hate. My personal opinion is the Florida G M is correct. Like this or not everything I have said here is the truth.



A statement like the one above just clearly shows me that you haven't grasped the core of masonry. It's about coming together as men across religion, race, color, political beliefs and what have you to become better men. I agree that we should not let anyone into the lodge just to boost numbers, but rejecting a brother because he is Muslim, Wiccan or anything similar is not in line with any masonic creed, and I dare you to find a reference that will agree with you.


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## widows son (Dec 9, 2012)

I agree, that's probably the most intolerant statement I've heard come from a mason. But then again you have the right to believe what you want. IMO however that very statement is ignorant. Masonry teaches one to be welcoming to other beliefs rather than turning your back, to be loving and tolerant, to be role models. The people shown to be cheering after 9/11 do not represent the entirety of the Muslim world, and was a group, the not the entire mid east.  Also this footage was shown to elicit feelings, which worked because not too long after, Afghanistan and Iraq happened. Goldwing there is beauty in this world that exists in every person, we all are children of the maker, to say that you are superior due to a religious ideal, is no different than those dancing in the street with your flag burning. You are angry at them for that, but yet you turn around and do the very same thing to them.


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 9, 2012)

What we are supposed to have


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## Traveling Man (Dec 9, 2012)

BryanMaloney said:


> Let's see, if you're a profane according to Florida's new rules, and the GLoTx permits you to partake in Masonic Communication, then Florida is duty-bound to cease recognition of GLoTx...



Not quite; we are "duty-bound" (obliged) to follow the edicts and laws of Our Grand Lodge. Florida on the other hand may have to deal with UGLE recognition, and that my brother will be an albatross they wish they hadn't dealt with... A rather "sticky wicket" if you will


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## Brother JC (Dec 9, 2012)

Goldwing,

And on 4-19-95 a Christian killed 168 of his fellow citizens in OKC... your argument is invalid, and completely unmasonic. I'd advise you not to Travel too far from home, as their are a number of Brethren who follow Islam. And they weren't dancing in the streets, they were weeping with the rest of us.

Many Lodges have three VSLs on their altar, every meeting. And that just covers the Abrahamic religions. Oh, wait, one of those is Islam.


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 9, 2012)

goldwing850108 said:


> I feel more harm will be done to masonry by diluting our standards to increase membership numbers. The inclusion of Odinists, Wicca, Atheists or Islam goes against the masonic ritual.



Muslims have been admitted to Freemasonry for well over a century. This includes within the Grand Lodge of Texas, if not for over a century, certainly in the present day. Of course, there are masons in the USA who brought charges against their brothers for admitting "a nonwhite man" in 2009...


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## Brother JC (Dec 9, 2012)

BryanMaloney said:


> Of course, there are masons in the USA who brought charges against their brothers for admitting "a nonwhite man" in 2009...


They should come have Masonic Converse with myself and my Worshipful Master...
View attachment 2690


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## CajunTinMan (Dec 9, 2012)

I posted this elseware but it applies to this.  I know this is not "politically correct" but is this a bad thing or is he is he puging beliefs that are not in line with Masonic tenets? I didn't read in this edict that it was against non-Christian religons or beliefs. I didn't see anything about Jewish or Islamic religions being mentioned as needing to be banned as an example.

*Odinism

*Odinism is a _polytheistic_ religion. We believe in and honour the life-giving and bountiful gods and goddesses of the Odinic pantheon, whom we refer to collectively as the High Gods of Asgarth, or as the Ã†sir and Vanir. Our gods are true gods, divine, living, spiritual entities, endowed with power and intelligence, able and willing to intervene in the course of Nature and of human lives. It behoves us to seek their goodwill and succour through prayer and sacrifice. But the gods do not require us to abase and humble ourselves; they do not seek to make of us craven slaves. Odinists therefore do not bow or kneel or kow-tow to the gods, but address them proudly like free, upstanding men and women. Odinists regard our gods, not as our masters, but as firm friends and powerful allies.
*ODINIST FELLOWSHIP,
**B.M. EDDA,
LONDON WC1N 3XX.*

*General principles of Wiccan beliefs:*

Wicca is an almost completely decentralized religion. George Knowles, a Wiccan author, has said: "“Wicca has no high authority, no single leader, no prophet and no Bible to dictate its laws and beliefs”. [SUB]*1*[/SUB] Many, perhaps most, Wiccans are solitary practitioners. Others form small local groups called covens, groves, etc. Thus, there probably are almost as many sets of Wiccan beliefs as there are Wiccans.
*Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance*
*Author: B.A. Robinson*


*Gnosticism: Ancient and modern

Deity*: The _Supreme Father God_ or _Supreme God of Truth_ is remote from human affairs; he is unknowable and undetectable by human senses. She/he created a series of supernatural but finite beings called _Aeons_. One of these was Sophia, a virgin, who in turn gave birth to an defective, inferior Creator-God, also known as _the Demiurge_. (Demiurge means "_public craftsman_" in Greek.) This lower God is sometimes called Yaldabaoth or Ialdabaoth Jaldabaoth -- from Aramaic words meaning "_begetter of the Heavens._" This is Jehovah, the God of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). He is portrayed as the creator of the earth and its life forms. He is viewed by Gnostics as fundamentally evil, jealous, rigid, lacking in compassion, and prone to genocide. The Demiurge _"thinks that he is supreme. His pride and incompetence have resulted in the sorry state of the world as we know it, and in the blind and ignorant condition of most of mankind."
_*Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance
Author: B.A. Robinson*​


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## Brother JC (Dec 9, 2012)

CajunTinMan said:


> I know this is not "politically correct" but is this a bad thing or is he is he puging beliefs that are not in line with Masonic tenets?


It is a violation of our tenants to ask a man's creed.


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## CajunTinMan (Dec 9, 2012)

trysquare said:


> It is a violation of our tenants to ask a man's creed.



And if he freely gives it?  Or it is determined later that he lied about his beliefs to get in?  Don’t get me wrong.  I am not prejudice against these people because of their beliefs.  Well, to be honest, not all the people.   I am a big fan of Eastern Philosophy for one.  But that still doesn’t mean that every belief fits with Masonry.


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## Brother JC (Dec 9, 2012)

You're sitting between two Brothers of your lodge. One is a Baptist, one is a Wiccan. But you don't know which. Do you mistrust both of them? Are you ready to "_purge the lodge_?"
Freemasonry is known to accept men of every creed. Period. If you _purging the lodge_ of every flavour you don't like, who's next? You claim to like Eastern Philosophy? Well, Buddhists traditionally have no SB, or VSL. I guess you'd better add them to your list. And Hindus? Too close to pantheism, better cut them out...

Who decides? Where does it stop?
It should stop now. I repeat; it violates everything we stand for, the very reason we exist.


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## CajunTinMan (Dec 9, 2012)

The Landmarks decide. And yes in another post I did include Buddhist. And Freemasonry is not known for accepting every creed. I know many young Masons believe it does but it doesn't. And are you saying that we should just ignore the Landmarks because they don't fit with modern thinking?


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## Brother JC (Dec 9, 2012)

Which Landmark says you judge? The one the GM quoted says, *"by whatever denominations or persuasions they may be distinguished." *There is no judgement.
If an Odinist says he believes in a Supreme Being, he is probably thinking of Odin, the All-Father, who is Supreme in his faith. And if he is willing to take the same oath I took, who am I, or any Mason, to say it's wrong?


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## CajunTinMan (Dec 9, 2012)

Well we are from a different line of thinking.


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## jwhoff (Dec 9, 2012)

How does one get from there (Grand Master's chair) to this?  

Some things are better left alone.  And ... some people.


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## CajunTinMan (Dec 9, 2012)

I don't really know what is correct. You can read Mackey, Hall, Pike, and others as well and still find that everything is wide open to interpretation.  My opinions are just that, opinions.


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## CajunTinMan (Dec 10, 2012)

[SIZE=+1]This is the part that I am refering to. I am more then open to a better understanding if it can be given. I would be glad to here any comments but please do don’t attack other religions when trying to make a point. There are Christian Brothers on here as well as Jewish, Islamic and Brothers of other faiths. I am trying to base my opinions on Landmarks and the meanings behind them not personal feeling about how I think things _should_ be. 

[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]I. _Concerning_ GOD [SIZE=+1]_and_ R[/SIZE] ELIGION. A _Mason_ is oblig'd by his Tenure, to obey the moral Law; and if he rightly understands the Art, he will never be a stupid Atheist noran irreligious *Libertine*. But though in ancient Times Masons were charg'd in every Country to be of the Religion of that Country or Nation, whatever it was, yet 'tis now thought more expedient only to oblige them to *that Religion in which all Men agree*, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves; that is, to be _good_ Men _and true,_ or Men of Honour and Honesty, by whatever Denominations or Persuasions they may be distinguish'd; whereby Masonry becomes the _Center_ of _Union,_ and the Means of conciliating true Friendship among Persons that must have remain'd at a perpetual Distance. 

What is the Religion in which all men agree?

*


*[/SIZE]


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## dhouseholder (Dec 10, 2012)

CajunTinMan said:


> [SIZE=+1]
> 
> What is the Religion in which all men agree?
> 
> ...



The religion of rational men, or one that is based on the Golden Rule.


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## Brother JC (Dec 10, 2012)

CajunTinMan said:


> What is the Religion in which all men agree?



Continue reading, it says it right there:

"that is, to be _good_ Men _and true,_ or Men of Honour and Honesty, by whatever Denominations or Persuasions they may be distinguish'd; whereby Masonry becomes the _Center_ of _Union,_ and the Means of conciliating true Friendship among Persons that must have remain'd at a perpetual Distance. "

CTM, I never wanted to argue with you, I just want to know who decides if a man's vision of Supreme Being is right or wrong? And what gives them the right to make that decision?


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 10, 2012)

Blasphemy


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 10, 2012)

Just one


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 10, 2012)

While Odinism is polytheistic (many gods), that does not mean it requires its adherents to deny that one of them is "Supreme".


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## Casey (Dec 10, 2012)

I've replied many times when asked about the "Masonic" religion.  "Masonry doesn't save souls, or reform sinners."  This blurb is to profess up front that my religion is not Masonry.  Masonry affords me the opportunity to band together with men from all walks of life, and various religions in our common goals.  When my goals are purely related to my religion I will handle that on Sundays... at church.  You know.... where religion belongs. (not that we should only practice our faith inside the church walls, but for this issue it should be looked at in this way.)

I feel once we deviate down this path what is to stop us from eventually someone deciding that Mormons(LDS), Presbyterians, Judaism, Church of Christ, etc. don't belong in our fraternity.

I also think a lot of these types of issues arise when brothers only attend lodge, and do not actively attend church.  It's almost as if they feel they are practicing their faith and worship whilst attending lodge.  I could be wrong, but that's my two cents.


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## widows son (Dec 10, 2012)

I think his actions will do more harm, there are those who don't follow religions, but whose philosophy can be found in the banned religions, such as myself. I don't believe in Odin, but he is the Norse supreme being and has the same attributes as God. If one believes in a supreme being, who cares what the name is, besides how can something that created everything in existence have a name? Wouldn't it be beyond a personality? Especially if all our souls/consciousness stem from it?


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## ess1113 (Dec 13, 2012)

For discussion:
GLOT requires 
Art 18.4.A   Acknowledgement of a belief in God the Father of all men.

Does that preclude any polytheistic religion since God is specifically singular in this statement?
Does that specifically exclude agnosticism since we require a "firm belief in the existence of God"?


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## dhouseholder (Dec 13, 2012)

ess1113 said:


> For discussion:
> GLOT requires
> Art 18.4.A   Acknowledgement of a belief in God the Father of all men.
> 
> ...



Once a brother fills out his petition to the lodge's satisfaction and declares a faith in God, all questions about a brother's faith, ideology, philosophy, paradigm, religion, spiritual system, etc., should stop. That is his own business and certainly none of mine.


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## widows son (Dec 13, 2012)

Well put. And in these banned religions, there is a belief in a singularity among other gods


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## DWSCHULZ (Dec 13, 2012)

dhouseholder said:


> Once a brother fills out his petition to the lodge's satisfaction and declares a faith in God, all questions about a brother's faith, ideology, philosophy, paradigm, religion, spiritual system, etc., should stop. That is his own business and certainly none of mine.



When I was sitting Chaplin we once had a candidate declare his faith in Jesus Christ where the ritual expects the reply "God".  It was fuel for a playful debate after Lodge over cake.  Of course, one Past Master took great pleasure in asking "What's the difference?"  Our conclusion was that, in our Lodge a declaration of faith in Jesus Christ was the same thing as a declaration of faith in God.  The question "What if a faith in the Holy Spirit had been declared?"  and "Is Christian three parts of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) still considered the practice of monotheism as implied in code?".

It's important to keep in mind that we would NEVER conduct this conversation in open Lodge and especially not during degree work but we encourage spirited debate in the basement.


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## chrmc (Dec 13, 2012)

DWSCHULZ said:


> When I was sitting Chaplin we once had a candidate declare his faith in Jesus Christ where the ritual expects the reply "God".  It was fuel for a playful debate after Lodge over cake.  Of course, one Past Master took great pleasure in asking "What's the difference?"  Our conclusion was that, in our Lodge a declaration of faith in Jesus Christ was the same thing as a declaration of faith in God.  The question "What if a faith in the Holy Spirit had been declared?"  and "Is Christian three parts of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) still considered the practice of monotheism as implied in code?".
> 
> It's important to keep in mind that we would NEVER conduct this conversation in open Lodge and especially not during degree work but we encourage spirited debate in the basement.



Personally I have less problems with a brother saying that I believe in Jesus / Allah / Buddhism / Paganism etc. than the other approach of a lodge saying that you MUST believe in a certain religion. 
I will agree that a statement in tyled lodge about what a brother believes in can spark controversy and discussion, but as long as a brother believes in something that is good for me. If he also declares his belief in a neutral way, I have little cause to be offended personally.


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## dhouseholder (Dec 13, 2012)

DWSCHULZ said:


> When I was sitting Chaplin we once had a candidate declare his faith in Jesus Christ where the ritual expects the reply "God".  It was fuel for a playful debate after Lodge over cake.  Of course, one Past Master took great pleasure in asking "What's the difference?"  Our conclusion was that, in our Lodge a declaration of faith in Jesus Christ was the same thing as a declaration of faith in God.  The question "What if a faith in the Holy Spirit had been declared?"  and "Is Christian three parts of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) still considered the practice of monotheism as implied in code?".
> 
> It's important to keep in mind that we would NEVER conduct this conversation in open Lodge and especially not during degree work but we encourage spirited debate in the basement.



A spirited discussion of religion, I feel, should be encouraged. *Debate*, however, should be forbidden.


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## ess1113 (Dec 14, 2012)

One of the definitions of debate is: To deliberate on; consider.
I dont think anything is wrong with that. I know we are talking semantics but its important to define the proper terms so we can control the discussion or debate properly.
I dont have a problem with discuss, argie, debate, dispute, or contend.

*Synonyms: **discuss**, argue**, 
debate**, dispute**, contend*
These verbs mean to talk with others in an effort to reach agreement, to ascertain truth, or to convince. 
_Discuss_ involves close examination of a subject with interchange of opinions: _My therapist discussed my concerns with my 
parents._
_Argue_ emphasizes the presentation of facts and reasons in support of a position opposed by others: _The lawyer argued the plaintiff's case._
_Debate_ involves formal, often public argument: _The candidates debated the campaign issues._
_Dispute_ implies differences of opinion and usually sharp argument: _The senators disputed over 
increases in the proposed budget._
To _contend_ is to strive in debate or controversy: _She contended that her theory was easily 
proven._


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 15, 2012)

ess1113 said:


> For discussion:
> GLOT requires
> Art 18.4.A   Acknowledgement of a belief in God the Father of all men.
> 
> Does that preclude any polytheistic religion since God is specifically singular in this statement?



While Odinism, for example, is polytheistic, Odin, specifically, is known as "Odin All-Father". Likewise, Hindus might recognize multiple deities, but they also have a concept of a single "God" from which all things ultimately flow, including the gods. So, it depends.


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## widows son (Dec 15, 2012)

And not only in Hinduism, and Odinism but Egyptian mythology, Persian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Greek, Druidism,Aztec, Mayan, and many others.


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## Godfrey Daniel (Dec 17, 2012)

[video=youtube;yd40GQdlfwo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd40GQdlfwo[/video]


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## Vikti (Dec 21, 2012)

Could the Grand Master of Florida be removed from his post (by a special tribunal of Past Masters if they sees fit) for trying to force his personal beliefs over all the lodges under the jurisdiction the Grand Lodge of Florida?  Especially if goes against a standing Masonic law?

I just find it hard to believe that someone within Masonry can be this powerful.  I'm all for letting the man taking back all he said and try to right any wrongs, we all make mistakes, but what if he doesn't want to and wants to try to expand on his ruling?

Damon
EA, Grandview Lodge #266


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## Raymond Walters (Dec 24, 2012)

goldwing850108 said:


> I feel more harm will be done to masonry by diluting our standards to increase membership numbers. The inclusion of Odinists, Wicca, Atheists or Islam goes against the masonic ritual. We have on our alter the Christian Holy Bible. Masonic ritual refers to passages from the Holy Bible in many occations. For example, Genesis 1:1-3 in the first degree, Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 in the 3rd degree and at masonic funerals. Also Palms 133 and Amos 7:8. No references from other religions or cults. I have recited these passages many times during obligating candidates. I would never allow a Muslim into our lodge or the Koran to lie on our alter. After all, it is not the Baptist or other christian religions that are placing bombs in super markets or on airplanes full of innocent people. You might recall right after 9-11-01 the entire Islamic world were cheering and dancing in the streets with joy after killing 3,000 people in America. Christians teach love not hate. My personal opinion is the Florida G M is correct. Like this or not everything I have said here is the truth.



I recall that in the Grand Lodge of Texas, that a [VSL] Volume of Sacred Law is placed on the altar, and that VSL is not restricted ONLY to the Holy Bible in use by Christians.

That is the only point I AM seeking to make with my comment.


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## towerbuilder7 (Dec 24, 2012)

Ok Brothers, I have read each of the Posts, and decided to offer my thoughts on this issue.   Brothers, in my humble opinion, the Grand Master in Florida over stepped his bounds.   Masonry isn't a religion, and doesn't ask for a member to be a member of any specific denomination.  

We have had Brethren quote Masonic Law, as well as Landmark while investigating whether the Brother in the GRAND EAST in Florida was TRUE AND JUST while creating this new edict.    My humble opinion tells me that he was NOT, simply because all discussion involving Religion and Brethren SHOULD stop at the door.   All that is required of a Man seeking entry into the Door is a belief in a Supreme Deity or Being.  

If one has read and studied World Religions, one will come to realize while there are many differences in belief SYSTEMS, however, there are also quite a few similarities, in that MOST (not ALL) have a Supreme Being to which all praise or reverence is given.   

A Man comes knocking at MY door, and expresses a belief in Allah, Quetzcoatl, Jesus Christ, GOD, or Krishna, I will accept his petition as I would any other, and if what is discovered through his Investigation is that his INTERNAL qualifications make him a Good Man, he will get my vote.  

As a MASON, One should not say that just because a Man is a believer in ISLAM that he would not be qualified to get a vote.  The VSL for Islam is the Koran, and sits on the Altar of many Lodges here in America along with the Holy Bible out of respect for our Brothers of the Muslim faith.  

Part of the beauty of MASONRY is in its belief in the doctrines of Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, and DEMOCRACY, which were a few of the fundamental principles that formed the basis and structure upon which the USA was established. 

Excluding a Man because of his religious beliefs is almost as closed minded as not giving a vote to a Man because of the Color of his Skin.  And, we ALL know, this is STILL a delicate issue in quite a few Mainstream and PHA Lodges even today. 

 In 2012, Some STILL don't believe a Black Man has the RIGHT to sit in Lodge with a White Man, whether by receipt of petition or through Intervisitation, even if that Black Man hails from a PHA Lodge recognized by the UGLE.    If someone can find the Masonic Law Violation that THIS presents, I'd be happy to see it.    That's more a matter of Internal Conflict with a Man's personal beliefs than a violation of Masonic Law.  

  And, I have discussed this very issue with quite a few of you via PM and email.   I stand strong on my opinion and conviction on that issue, and will continue to do so until EVERY MAN who hails from or petitions to a Recognized Body of Masonry is viewed equally in a Masonic Lodge setting.   

We can't narrow our scope and view on extremism to believers in Islam, folks.   Some of the most troubling acts of DOMESTIC terrorism have occurred right under our noses,  Brothers, and these Murderers were children born to what appeared to be normal, Non Muslim American households.  

I'm no longer troubled by the image of the Muslim Extremist coming to kill and harm our babies; I'm MORE troubled and worried that Americans will continue to do more of these acts of Domestic Terrorism as we witnessed in Connecticut two weeks ago to FELLOW AMERICANS.  

Those who are concerned enough about the issue in Florida should correspond to that Jurisdiction according to PROPER protocol and Masonic Law of the Jurisdiction to which you belong.  

I would like to wish each of you who reads this Happy Holidays to you and your families.    I hope the New Year provides MASONRY with more progression and solidarity, and also allows  for the inclusion of more progressive VOTING on the part of both Grand Bodies, Mainstream and PHA.   The progression I speak of involves a change in the thinking of many, and the courage of a few.    If anyone has issue or question regarding my comments, feel free to PM me.        

Fraternally,

Bro. Vincent C. Jones, Sr., Lodge Chaplain
Bayou City Lodge 228, Prince Hall Affiliation
Free and Accepted Masonry, Houston, Texas
Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas, Est 1878


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## widows son (Dec 24, 2012)

Brother Vince, those are some great words. It's shameful that a black mason and a white mason, in 2012 still do see each other as brothers, even though both go to a recognized lodge. The GM of FL has most certainly over stepped his bounds, and should either revoke his decision, or be removed from office.


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## towerbuilder7 (Dec 24, 2012)

In Mackey's Jurisprudence, it is stated that a "competent check" on matters that occur in Lodge/Grand Lodge is THE VOTE.   This Man was elected, and he can be REMOVED by that same power of the VOTE, within the confines of that State's Const and By Laws.   I pray that the Brothers resolve that matter in the most harmonious way possible.           Vince


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## Robert G (Dec 30, 2012)

The problem with the Florida GM's Edict No. 3: It removes the focus from  the individual's suitability for membership to that of an entire  religious group. It's like saying that since Timothy McVeigh was a  terrorist and he was also a Catholic, all Catholics are terrorists. The great tragedy here is that in his sincere  zeal to protect the fraternity from a few undesireable individuals from  gaining membership he has caused a much greater harm by dividing the  craft over religion....the very thing our Landmarks warn us against. The  beautiful harmony and peacefulness of the masonic lodge is that we are  spared from conflict over religion, politics and comparisons of wordly  social standing. Now the craft is all in an uproar over this  most-unfortunate edict. I truly wish that the GM would realize this and  revoke the edict. It would be best for everyone and would show the GM to  be the fine mason I'm sure he really is.


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## Robert G (Jan 2, 2013)

If Edict No. 3 is not withdrawn by the next Florida GM, then that means that a precedent will have been set that any future GM can decide that he doesn't like any particular religion and any brother can be expelled or forced to resign who happens to subscribe to such a religion even if at the time of his initiation that religion was acceptable. I think that if the edict is not overturned, then any prospective petitioner must be informed that he risks being expelled anytime in the future on the whim of whatever GM is in office. This would definitely mean that it would be unwise to become a perpetual member or to count on being able to live at the Florida Masonic Home even after being admitted.

I truly do not believe that the current Florida GM thought out all the possible effects of his edict.


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## chrmc (Jan 2, 2013)

Robert G said:


> If Edict No. 3 is not withdrawn by the next Florida GM,



Just a technicality question, but doesn't an edict naturally "expire" when that Grand Master leaves office? I though they were only good for that one year?
(but must admit that I've never really read up on Grand Lodge law on that issue)


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## Robert G (Jan 2, 2013)

I don't know the answer. I had heard that so I went to the Florida Masonic Law Digest and researched it. I tried every way to find any references to the word "edict." The little I found did not state the nature of an edict, it's force in masonic law, or how long it would be in effect. You can search Florida's Masonic Law Digest at this site and see if you can find anything: http://www.glflamason.org/grandlodge/digest.html. Be sure to let us know if you find out the answer to your question.


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## jwhoff (Jan 2, 2013)

To bad I can only throw one thanks at towerbuilder7 on that Christmas Eve post.

I've re-read that post several times and have decided to throw another BIG FAT THANK YOU at him here.


There is hope for this world with such fine masons out there.  Too bad towerbuilder7 is located here in Houston with me ... we might all be better served if he was in the Grand East a 8-900 miles to the east of our city limits.


My hope is renewed by the posts I am reading on this thread.  Here's a hope that everyone really researches their vote every year when selecting grand junior wardens the world over.  Brethren, it has so much more to do with what is in a man than from whence he hails.


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## THurse (Jan 2, 2013)

The letter is well put and I hope that their will be a positive resolution to these decisions, that were made. Believing in the Higher Being, is what should be asked at the start not after or how a Brother, believes and then to banish him or threaten to put him on trial.


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## naparuno (Jul 7, 2013)

[h=2]Tuesday, June 04, 2013[/h][h=3]Florida Overturns GM's Edict Re: Gnostics, Pagans and Wiccans[/h]

I'm back from a week in France. While I was gone, Florida's Grand Master Jorge L. Aladro's Edict expelling pagans, gnostics and Wiccans was overturned by Florida's Grand Lodge on May 28th, putting this episode behind everyone for now.


The passed resolution reverses the Ruling in its entirety, and concludes by affirming “that Florida Masonry hereby declares its eternal devotion to the religious toleration that is one of the immovable and Ancient Landmarks of Freemasonry, never to be changed by any man or group of men.”


The Jurisprudence Committee had recommended rejection.


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## jwhoff (Jul 7, 2013)

So Mote it Be!  

It has been my experience, here in Texas, that sound decisions are made at Grand Lodge proceedings.  I commend Florida's jurisprudence committee for performing their duty and overturning an obvious mistake in judgement.  Hats off to Florida!


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Jul 8, 2013)

naparuno said:


> [h=2]Tuesday, June 04, 2013[/h][h=3]Florida Overturns GM's Edict Re: Gnostics, Pagans and Wiccans[/h]  I'm back from a week in France. While I was gone, Florida's Grand Master Jorge L. Aladro's Edict expelling pagans, gnostics and Wiccans was overturned by Florida's Grand Lodge on May 28th, putting this episode behind everyone for now.   The passed resolution reverses the Ruling in its entirety, and concludes by affirming “that Florida Masonry hereby declares its eternal devotion to the religious toleration that is one of the immovable and Ancient Landmarks of Freemasonry, never to be changed by any man or group of men.”   The Jurisprudence Committee had recommended rejection.


  Thank you, Brother, for that welcome update. It's nice to see that "the system" works. It's not so nice to have to admit that it had to be employed at all. How a Master Mason harboring such plainly evident fear and ignorance could rise to the status of Grand Master is something which we should be fervently asking ourselves. None of us is perfect, of course, but how is it that someone who so "does not get it" was able to rise to a position of such great responsibility? Where were those of us who were supposed to be offering counsel?


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## dfreybur (Jul 8, 2013)

I searched through their open email folder.  Bingo. 

http://www.glflamason.org/documents/Monthly%20Mail/06-Jun/2013/4%20Summary%20of%20Legislation%202013.pdf 

To download the report. 

Off the Grand Secretary link on the home page, Monthly Mail in the  pull-down.  Pick 2013.  Pick June. 

That is the confirmation directly from the GL of Florida web site that the religious bigotry edict has been repealed . 

"6. Resolution for Revocation of Ruling and Decision No. 3 – The  adoption of this Resolution will revoke Ruling and Decision No. 3 issued  November 28, 2012, by M ∴ W ∴ Jorge L. Aladro, P.G.M."


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## 4thGenMason (Sep 8, 2013)

When I moved to arkansas, a man petitioned the lodge who was an ordained priest in the pagan religion. It wasn't the same lodge that was mentioned by pscyclepath (nettelton lodge in jonesboro, AR) but only 45 minutes away. I was still only a visitor, therefore not responsible for the outcome. But I want some feedback about feelings towards it. He was a very nice man, married with at least one child, ex-army. But was rejected due to being pagan. Not one person "hated" or even "disliked" him, and the explanation was that paganism doesn't meet the criteria for masonry. That you must have ONE supreme being, not the many gods of paganism. It doesn't matter what you call him/her, so long as it's singular. And that you should pray, not cast spells or incantations.

 Again, I was neither a member nor present. No one had an issue with his religion, just that they felt it didn't meet the requirements.  I'm interested in hearing your views.

Fraternally yours,
 Bro. Morris.


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## widows son (Sep 8, 2013)

Most if not all pagan religions have a supreme deity that's is the author of all things.


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## 4thGenMason (Sep 8, 2013)

Interesting. I have to admit, paganism is a religion I'm relatively ignorant about. That's one of the reasons I've been keeping an open mind about it. It seems I will have to do some research on the subject to have a better understanding.


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## Brother JC (Sep 8, 2013)

One could argue that Trinitarian Christians worship multiple deities, though they would respond that the Trinity are merely "aspects" of one god.

And that is what a pagan pantheon entails; aspects of Deity, almost always capped by a Father or Mother figure that is Supreme. The Roman pantheon has Jupiter as its "supreme" being, the Greeks have Zeus. For the Norse it is Odin, and Dagda for the Celtic followers.

Too many people get wrapped up in what they think religion should be and don't remember that the point of our rules is *Faith*. Does the Candidate believe in something greater than himself? Does he have Faith in a higher power, in a life beyond this life? Does he follow a moral code? That is the crucial requirement, not some petty argument over what brand of religion he subscribes to.


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## 4thGenMason (Sep 8, 2013)

I certainly agree with your perspective. I always keep an open mind, and strive to be as enlightened as possible. I was fairly unhappy that such a good person was kept from the fraternity simply because his religion wasn't understood. I still have some mixed feelings about it, but you have most certainly shed some much needed light on the subject. 

I have a question for you trysquare, during the EA when the candidate is asked in whom he places his trust, how would someone from such a religion respond? As previously mentioned, I don't know much of anything about the less well known religions. For example someone who followed Greek religion, aren't each of the gods a separate entity ruled by one. But each one worshipped?

 Any further insight is much welcomed.


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## Brother JC (Sep 8, 2013)

If I had responded "YHVH" would I have been removed from Lodge without being Initiated? What of a traditional believer whose faith forbids speaking the name of Deity in any form? How would he answer that question? And in either case, would it make the person less worthy of receiving Light?


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## 4thGenMason (Sep 8, 2013)

The Jews are more than welcome in all lodges I've attended. As for the second point, most certainly not (I would hope) the reason I asked is because I would like to know more on this subject so I'm assured that I never make an uneducated decision and make a terrible mistake.


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## dfreybur (Sep 8, 2013)

4thGenMason said:


> When I moved to arkansas, a man petitioned the lodge who was an ordained priest in the pagan religion. It wasn't the same lodge that was mentioned by pscyclepath (nettelton lodge in jonesboro, AR) but only 45 minutes away. I was still only a visitor, therefore not responsible for the outcome. But I want some feedback about feelings towards it. He was a very nice man, married with at least one child, ex-army. But was rejected due to being pagan. Not one person "hated" or even "disliked" him, and the explanation was that paganism doesn't meet the criteria for masonry.



First things first - The secrecy of the ballot is sacrosanct.  No one may report how he voted or why.  To do so is a chargeable offense that can get you put on a Masonic trial.  No one may ask how any member voted or why.  Same issue.  As firm as I am about religious freedom and tolerance as a make or break issue I am equally firm on ballot secrecy.  Anyone who admitted how or why he voted violated Masonic principles every bit as much as balloting in opposition to our principles of religious freedom and tolerance.  There is no way any of that should have come out.



> That you must have ONE supreme being, not the many gods of paganism. It doesn't matter what you call him/her, so long as it's singular.



The monotheism requirement was dropped in the 1700s.  None alive today lived in a time when that requirement existed.  The path to deal with ignorance is education.  The requirement since at least as far back as the unification of the Antients and Moderns in 1813 is "Believe in the existence of a supreme being".

With Buddhist Masons it can be interesting to discuss how they address the word "existence" in that requirement as not all sects of Buddhism address deity.

With polytheist Masons it can be interesting to discuss how they address the word "supreme" in that requirement.  Some pantheons has a deity like Jupiter or Zeus who is clearly in charge.  Other pantheons are not as clear on who is in charge.  It can take quite some pondering to resolve.  But none of that matters.  What matters is our candidate reached a point where he is comfortable answering "yes" to the question and an investigation into his character shows that he has a reputation for honesty.

I just tried to download the Arkansas petition.  The site http://www.argrandlodge.org/ is a park page listed as for sale.  It's sad that a discussion of ignorance of Masonic principles points to a jurisdiction that's off-line at the moment.


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## 4thGenMason (Sep 8, 2013)

I never said who or how many voted yay or nay. Simply that at least 1 person black balled him. The discussion was long before the vote, and no one actually came out and said they were going to vote negatively. 

I appreciate the information  you offered, and it's very helpful. Can you offer a citation for that so I can read and learn more?


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## dfreybur (Sep 8, 2013)

4thGenMason said:


> I have a question for you trysquare, during the EA when the candidate is asked in whom he places his trust, how would someone from such a religion respond?



As long as the response translates to "In the divine" then the response works.  I'd been through the weeks of pondering what "supreme" means and I had resolved the issue for myself.  I had learned that sectarian religion is not to be discussed in lodge.  Rather than a lengthy discussion of how and why I'd reached the point and who I had decided was in charge I thought about the prohibition of sectarian religion.  So I answered "In God" and did not specify which name of which deity I meant.  For some the answer is easy and natural.  For others the answer is a result of a lot of thought and effort of how to not introduce sectarian religion into lodge so it ends up being a two word abbreviation of a lot.



> As previously mentioned, I don't know much of anything about the less well known religions. For example someone who followed Greek religion, aren't each of the gods a separate entity ruled by one. But each one worshipped?



That's not relevant.  You are over thinking this.  The question is a yes or no one.  Masonry does not specify what religion a brother should belong to.  Masonry does not care if you belong to a faith that requires exclusivity or a faith that does not require exclusivity.  Masonry cares that you are a man of faith full stop.  Whether deity is one of many does not change being a man of faith.


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## 4thGenMason (Sep 8, 2013)

Thank you for that explanation. Your perspective is a very informative one. I've been an MM for a mere 3 years, and as such still have much to learn. This is why I'm asking questions and trying to get as much input as possible. If something I say or ask strikes you the wrong way, please understand that I'm simply searching for better understanding, and might not have chosen the best words to convey my meaning.

Again, thank you for giving more insight in the topic. It wasn't explained to me very well, so the only way for me to know how it is truly intended is to ask more veteran Masons. I don't have any issues with a man's chosen religion, I just wasn't sure what the actual requirements were in this regard.


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## naparuno (Sep 8, 2013)

In Florida, and suspect many Grand Lodges, has a specific monotheism requirement, at least that is the way I read it.  Here's a link:  http://www.glflamason.org/documents/GL601a.pdf

It says, "Do you believe in the existence of one ever-living and true God?"


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## Brother_Steve (Sep 8, 2013)

naparuno said:


> In Florida, and suspect many Grand Lodges, has a specific monotheism requirement, at least that is the way I read it.  Here's a link:  http://www.glflamason.org/documents/GL601a.pdf
> 
> It says, "Do you believe in the existence of one ever-living and true God?"


Not to split hairs but lets say for arguments sake my religion says there are 5 supreme beings.

The wording of that question is amigiuos enough to say yes without lying.

The question has to be worded as such to specify one god only IMHO.

"Do you believe in the existence of **only** one ever-living and true God?"


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## coachn (Sep 8, 2013)

naparuno said:


> In Florida, and suspect many Grand Lodges, has a specific monotheism requirement, at least that is the way I read it.  Here's a link:  http://www.glflamason.org/documents/GL601a.pdf
> 
> It says, "Do you believe in the existence of one ever-living and true God?"


Look up within the Florida Digest,  "the only religious requirement", when you get an opportunity.  It conflicts with the wording upon the petition.


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## naparuno (Sep 8, 2013)

I agree, all is to interpretation, and I could easily see many pagans, and others for that matter, easily and honestly be able to to say yes to this.  But the real question is how the MM voting interprets this question since they are the final judgement regarding their fate to initiation.  

I looked around a few more GL (via the Internet of course) and NC has this same similar wording, and I am sure there are a few more.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Sep 9, 2013)

4thGenMason said:


> Interesting. I have to admit, paganism is a religion I'm relatively ignorant about. That's one of the reasons I've been keeping an open mind about it. It seems I will have to do some research on the subject to have a better understanding.


"Paganism", per se, is not a religion. There are many religions that may lumped together under the term "pagan", but they often have no more in common than, say, Buddhism and Judaism. 
As for the candidate's rejection, it was unjust and clearly based on fear and ignorance. By your description of the candidate, that lodge is the poorer for it. Hardly the first time such a thing has happened and certainly it will not be the last.


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## naparuno (Sep 9, 2013)

In regard to the Florida digest, I've observed that as well.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Sep 9, 2013)

Brother_Steve said:


> The wording of that question is amigiuos enough to say yes without lying.


Precisely.


> The question has to be worded as such to specify one god only IMHO.


Why would you want to do that? So that you could have an excuse for excluding those whose religions differ too much from yours?


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Sep 9, 2013)

naparuno said:


> I agree, all is to interpretation, and I could easily see many pagans, and others for that matter, easily and honestly be able to to say yes to this.  But the real question is how the MM voting interprets this question since they are the final judgement regarding their fate to initiation.


If the nature of a candidate's religion has been injected into the process, you're doing it wrong.


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## LittleHunter (Sep 9, 2013)

The FL issue was resolved in May. In FL, as elsewhere, a candidate may be of ANY religion as long as he believes in a Supreme Being. We are all children of the same Creator even though we may address Him by different names.


Freemason Connect HD


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## LittleHunter (Sep 9, 2013)

The FL issue was resolved in May. In FL, as elsewhere, a candidate may be of ANY religion as long as he believes in a Supreme Being. We are all children of the same Creator even though we may address Him by different names.


Freemason Connect HD


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## dfreybur (Sep 9, 2013)

On the Florida vote in May - The brothers at the grand secretary's office might not even realize that the vote changed any pre-existing policy about monotheism.  Would any brother in Florida be interested in pointing that out to them?  Their petition form really should be changed now that they have had a formal vote to bring themselves into the 19th century with regard to the topic of religious requirements.

On the Florida web site - It has the expected wording that is inclusive of candidates who see deity as one or many.

On the New York petition - I once down loaded the New York petition and it had wording something like "One single true and ever living God".  I would have read that on the petition, shredded it and never gone back.  That's unambiguously contrary to the standard set by the UGLE at least since its unification in 1813.  This weekend I went to the GLofNY web site and I couldn't find a downloadable petition form.  I've tried to find jurisdictions with words like "single" or "only" on their petitions to see how many actually do require monotheism.  So far I've only found NYS to explicitly diverge from the world wide standard.

On the Florida petition - The wording is ambiguous.  That makes it very easy to decide for yourself one way or the other.  But remember - If you ask the candidate's religion you're doing it wrong.  All that should ever get asked is for a yes or a no.  Someone who reads up on Masonic history as I did and checks world wide Masonry as I did could well decide they follow the worldwide standard and they just have odd old fashioned wording on their form.  I see how it could get ugly with another deciding it the other way.  And sure enough it did get ugly -

Masonry and religious affiliation.  The original "don't ask don't tell" policy.


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## LittleHunter (Sep 10, 2013)

No we're not interested in pointing anything out to the Grand Sec of FL. The bottom line is that senior Brothers should be trained not pry into the specific beliefs of candidates/new brothers and they should avoid getting into religious pissing contests with them. Masonry is a place for religious tolerance, not religious activism


Freemason Connect HD


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Sep 10, 2013)

LittleHunter said:


> Masonry is a place for religious tolerance, not religious activism



Amen!
That we are _all _men of faith is the most fundamental thing that unites us all. That is something to be celebrated.


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## Hirum 324 (Sep 10, 2013)

LittleHunter said:


> No we're not interested in pointing anything out to the Grand Sec of FL. The bottom line is that senior Brothers should be trained not pry into the specific beliefs of candidates/new brothers and they should avoid getting into religious pissing contests with them. Masonry is a place for religious tolerance, not religious activism
> 
> Freemason Connect HD



As you know Brother Hunter he acted like a dictator not like a Grand Master.


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## Hirum 324 (Sep 10, 2013)

LittleHunter said:


> No we're not interested in pointing anything out to the Grand Sec of FL. The bottom line is that senior Brothers should be trained not pry into the specific beliefs of candidates/new brothers and they should avoid getting into religious pissing contests with them. Masonry is a place for religious tolerance, not religious activism
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect HD



He wasn't well liked within our state, making many obtuse changes and personal attacks towards Brothers that opposed his tyrannical will, or didn't respond fast enough to his demands. Threatening to place Masonic charges for willful dereliction of duty charges against Lodge secretaries for slow responses to his requests. 

He also pulled several charters during his year because the Lodges didn't meet his expectations. Granted some may have been needing disciplinary action, but it was as if be was trying to mandate the Craft to bend to his Personal design of Masonry. 

He tried to micromanage everything and everybody in the Craft. He probably thought he was actually improving the Craft, when all he was doing was ripping it apart from within. Practically every one of his articles at Grand Lodge was voted down or repealed!

 His parting statement at Grand Lodge said it all: I probably won't be visiting many of your Lodges after today, but I'm sure not many Brothers will mind.?!


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