# Clandestine Freemasonry



## flameburns623 (Dec 26, 2016)

So: a co-worker and I  were discussing Freemasonry.  His father had been a Prince Hall Freemason. And, apparently,  expired before my coworker reached majority.  

The coworker,  at 17, was honoring his Dad's memory by wearing Dad's Masonic ring, on the mean streets of inner-city St. Louis: and, someone professing to be a Mason themselves, accosted him and forcibly took his ring. Allegedly with a law officer present. 

My first impression was this story was apocryphal or that something was going on more than I was aware. I could not imagine,  among other things, a cop permitting a strong-arm robbery to occur before his eyes without intervening.  I did advise my friend it is poor form to wear Masonic items if one is not initiated: but I deemed it grossly un-Masonic to steal an heirloom from a young boy. 

By mere chance just days later I was listening to The Masonic Roundtable online and caught a broadcast on Clandestine Freemasonry.  And, one of the guests thereon recounted an experience not dissimilar to my Black friend's. Apparently,  several Clandestine groups specialize in relieving "unworthy" wearers of their Masonic items. 

And some have been known to have buddies, essentially impersonating law enforcement,  standing nearby,  giving impression of authority to the theft. 

Numerous questions about all of this. Entirely unheard of in my limited experience.  These groups abound among African Americans more than in my own Caucasian communities, apparently: why so?

Any good reading suggestions on this? Thanks!


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## Matt L (Dec 26, 2016)

I'm a 30 year Street cop, that would never occur in my presence.  The "Brother" relieving the profane of his ring would be sitting in the county jail on at least a robbery charge and depending on the value of the ring either a misdemeanor or felony theft charge. 

While I was getting the victims info, I would explain what the wearing of the ring means to us, and if he wants to honor his father, petition and start his own journey. The ring would have more significance then.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 26, 2016)

I've heard of similar situations, but I can't imagine legitimizing yourself as a MM just by saying, "Hey, I'm a Mason and you're not. Give me that ring." To me, I'd say, I don't know you to be as such no more than you don't know I to be as such. If it's real, it doesn't make any sense, and I almost wish someone would try that with me. Unmasonic of me to say that, but they ain't getting my ring unless they have a gun pointed at my head. That's very, very disrespectful.


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## flameburns623 (Dec 26, 2016)

Matt L said:


> I'm a 30 year Street cop, that would never occur in my presence.  The "Brother" relieving the profane of his ring would be sitting in the county jail on at least a robbery charge and depending on the value of the ring either a misdemeanor or felony theft charge.
> 
> While I was getting the victims info, I would explain what the wearing of the ring means to us, and if he wants to honor his father, petition and start his own journey. The ring would have more significance then.



At 17 yo, I  think my friend would have been limited to joining DeMolay.  

And if I am getting the story about these Clandestine Lodges correct, some of them have a 'security team' for want of a better term,  whose appearance is that of a law  officer.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 26, 2016)

flameburns623 said:


> At 17 yo, I  think my friend would have been limited to joining DeMolay.
> 
> And if I am getting the story about these Clandestine Lodges correct, some of them have a 'security team' for want of a better term,  whose appearance is that of a law  officer.



If that's true, that's crazy. Wow...


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## Matt L (Dec 26, 2016)

Sounds like an elaborate shakedown to me.  Impersonating a Police Officer and conspiracy to commit robbery charges might put a dent in their operation.


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## flameburns623 (Dec 26, 2016)

Matt L said:


> Sounds like an elaborate shakedown to me.  Impersonating a Police Officer and conspiracy to commit robbery charges might put a dent in their operation.


 
My friend is in his early 30's now, so this happened more than 15 years back.

Per two accounts told on Masonic podcasts I have heard in the last ten days or so,  it is more common, in the inner cities,  and among minority Brethren,  for a PHA Mason to be hailed by a "Brother" unknown to him: who quizzes the PHA member on his "Masonic knowledge", and confiscates the legiimate Prince Hall brother's Masonic items "to send to your Lodge with directions to ensure you are more properly instructed ". 

No idea if the Clandestine "Brother" usually follows up, or just keeps the PHA member's stuff.  I am thinking the latter.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 26, 2016)

flameburns623 said:


> My friend is in his early 30's now, so this happened more than 15 years back.
> 
> Per two accounts told on Masonic podcasts I have heard in the last ten days or so,  it is more common, in the inner cities,  and among minority Brethren,  for a PHA Mason to be hailed by a "Brother" unknown to him: who quizzes the PHA member on his "Masonic knowledge", and confiscates the legiimate Prince Hall brother's Masonic items "to send to your Lodge with directions to ensure you are more properly instructed ".
> 
> No idea if the Clandestine "Brother" usually follows up, or just keeps the PHA member's stuff.  I am thinking the latter.



So do they ask the passwords and whatnot on the street? How does the legit brother know the other is legit? And as a part of Masonry, recognition isn't necessarily being able to explain every single detail. Why are they so worried about how knowledgeable another brother is? Why don't they just worry about themselves? If anything, how about mentoring them instead of humiliating them on the street and then calling them out to their home lodge? I never took an obligation stating I would call somebody out on the street and correct them and then take their stuff to send to their home lodge. That's some Animal House fraternity stuff and if it's going on, it's un-Masonic and should be addressed.


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## flameburns623 (Dec 26, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> So do they ask the passwords and whatnot on the street? How does the legit brother know the other is legit? And as a part of Masonry, recognition isn't necessarily being able to explain every single detail. Why are they so worried about how knowledgeable another brother is? Why don't they just worry about themselves? If anything, how about mentoring them instead of humiliating them on the street and then calling them out to their home lodge? I never took an obligation stating I would call somebody out on the street and correct them and then take their stuff to send to their home lodge. That's some Animal House fraternity stuff and if it's going on, it's un-Masonic and should be addressed.



I do not have answers for you.  Twelve or thirteen days ago I suspected my coworker of telling a tall tale or at least misconstruing a sad incident. 

Since then,  I  have heard, on separate podcasts,  that African American Masons particularly in the inner cities  (though one Brother was accosted in an urban airport), experience this with some regularity.  
Perhaps others are more knowledgeable.  That was one of my motivations in starting this thread.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 26, 2016)

If you search this and other fora, particularly the FB groups, you will find it is common in some communities, including some PHA, to require Masons to defend their "light", i.e., jewellery and apparel, by responding to Catch-e-kisms, from the book of that name. They will even brag about doing so.


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## flameburns623 (Dec 26, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> If you search this and other fora, particularly the FB groups, you will find it is common in some communities, including some PHA, to require Masons to defend their "light", i.e., jewellery and apparel, by responding to Catch-e-kisms, from the book of that name. They will even brag about doing so.



Brother Cook: thanks.  I  was just googling for an anecdote to illustrate what I have been describing and found this thread:

https://www.myfreemasonry.com/threads/having-your-light-taken.24294/

Boggles my brain.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 26, 2016)

Wow


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## flameburns623 (Dec 26, 2016)

So does anyone know why Clandestine Freemasonry is exceptionally prevalent among inner-city minority groups? My impression is, it has something to do with internal fractures and schisms among 19th century Prince Hall Masonry. But perhaps some could flesh the topic out?


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## Glen Cook (Dec 26, 2016)

flameburns623 said:


> So does anyone know why Clandestine Freemasonry is exceptionally prevalent among inner-city minority groups? My impression is, it has something to do with internal fractures and schisms among 19th century Prince Hall Masonry. But perhaps some could flesh the topic out?



The best person would be Oscar Alleyne. 

I lay part of the blame at the door for the State GLs. We labelled PHA as irregular and clandestine. If you are a young man of color, why would it matter which GL
join if all have been labelled clandestine?

The other issue is that the State GLs have a well established system to demonstrate regularity, in part through the CGMNA Commission. Phylaxis came later to the game, and while useful and respected, does not have official imprimatur.


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## Bloke (Dec 26, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> ....Phylaxis came later to the game, and while useful and respected, does not have official imprimatur.



Serious question, does it really need it ? It doesn't initiate anyone and already has a strong rep for what it does...

"Defending your light"....it's a game in a small irregular  sub-culture, but a crime in wider Masonic and general society. Terrible to read of this young man's father's ring being stolen, I'd be writing to every clandestine group in the state lest they keep them as trophies... you never know and I feel so bad about this kid.... but at least you can explain it... mark my words, one day defending light will get someone killed if it hasn't happened already... it would sure upset me..


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## Glen Cook (Dec 26, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Serious question, does it really need it ? It doesn't initiate anyone and already has a strong rep for what it does...
> 
> "Defending your light"....it's a game in a small irregular  sub-culture, but a crime in wider Masonic and general society. Terrible to read of this young man's father's ring being stolen, I'd be writing to every clandestine group in the state lest they keep them as trophies... you never know and I feel so bad about this kid.... but at least you can explain it... mark my words, one day defending light will get someone killed if it hasn't happened already... it would sure upset me..


Unfortunately, defending your light is also in some PHA cultures. 

CGMNA does not initiate either, but is made up of the NA GLs who elect the Commission on Information for Recognition


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## Sammcd (Dec 26, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Serious question, does it really need it ? It doesn't initiate anyone and already has a strong rep for what it does...
> 
> "Defending your light"....it's a game in a small irregular  sub-culture, but a crime in wider Masonic and general society. Terrible to read of this young man's father's ring being stolen, I'd be writing to every clandestine group in the state lest they keep them as trophies... you never know and I feel so bad about this kid.... but at least you can explain it... mark my words, one day defending light will get someone killed if it hasn't happened already... it would sure upset me..



I stopped at a Burger King in Denver a couple Years ago and I was wearing a ball cap with the square and compass emblem.  I was approached by two gentlemen and was ask questions as to the age of dog and my grandmothers name. I had an idea as to where this was going. I was asked whence came You. I answered from the west traveling east. I then ask of what was I searching. I said I was searching for lunch and wanted a double meat and cheese burger and fries. The bigger guy of the said he was going to take my hat because I was unworthy to wear it.. I kept my hat and got my burger and left. 


Sent from my iPad using My Freemasonry


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## CLewey44 (Dec 26, 2016)

Sammcd said:


> I stopped at a Burger King in Denver a couple Years ago and I was wearing a ball cap with the square and compass emblem.  I was approached by two gentlemen and was ask questions as to the age of dog and my grandmothers name. I had an idea as to where this was going. I was asked whence came You. I answered from the west traveling east. I then ask of what was I searching. I said I was searching for lunch and wanted a double meat and cheese burger and fries. The bigger guy of the said he was going to take my hat because I was unworthy to wear it.. I kept my hat and got my burger and left.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using My Freemasonry



This could be perceived as aggressive. I'm surprised people haven't been shot or fights started. I don't get the logic of me having to trust they're a MM just because they initiate questions on me. That's not how it works. On the street, anyone can wear whatever they want. I may not like it, but I can't stop them and it's literally illegal to take someone's stuff like that. Now I guess you could say that if someone joins a certain lodge knowing that could happen, they would expect it maybe.


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## MRichard (Dec 28, 2016)

flameburns623 said:


> So does anyone know why Clandestine Freemasonry is exceptionally prevalent among inner-city minority groups? My impression is, it has something to do with internal fractures and schisms among 19th century Prince Hall Masonry. But perhaps some could flesh the topic out?



The problem initially began with John G Jones who was a Prince Hall freemason and attorney. And then it got worse under Jerry Baxter Baldwin & Rev. William Venoid Banks who respectively founded Modern Free & Accepted Colored Masons under Baldwin to International Free & Accepted Modern Masons under Banks. Baldwin recruited Banks and then they fell out. Typically, these guys fall out with each other and then just create another grand lodge.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 28, 2016)

MRichard said:


> The problem initially began with John G Jones who was a Prince Hall freemason and attorney. And then it got worse under Baxter and Banks.


Stupid attorneys


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## flameburns623 (Dec 28, 2016)

MRichard said:


> The problem initially began with John G Jones who was a Prince Hall freemason and attorney. And then it got worse under Jerry Baxter Baldwin & Rev. William Venoid Banks who respectively founded Modern Free & Accepted Colored Masons under Baldwin to International Free & Accepted Modern Masons under Banks. Baldwin recruited Banks and then they fell out. Typically, these guys fall out with each other and then just create another grand lodge.



Thanks. Link was very informative.  I note that Le Droit Humain is apparently a mostly-White clandestine Masonic group. So it isn't just a Prince Hall issue.


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## MRichard (Dec 28, 2016)

flameburns623 said:


> Thanks. Link was very informative.  I note that Le Droit Humain is apparently a mostly-White clandestine Masonic group. So it isn't just a Prince Hall issue.



Le Droit is a co-masonic order (allows women). There are quite a few predominantly white clandestine grand lodges overseas. Now they have started recognizing each other to appear more legitimate.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 28, 2016)

flameburns623 said:


> Thanks. Link was very informative.  I note that Le Droit Humain is apparently a mostly-White clandestine Masonic group. So it isn't just a Prince Hall issue.


No, clearly not just PHA.   Do a search for Grand Orient of the US (aka, GOOFUS).   We even have co-ed and an Hispanic GL in Utah. 

As indicated above, in Europe it is more an issue, and it's almost like the Hitting the Gopher Game: Two of the Bulgarian GLs merged, and another illicit GL popped up before the ink was dry. I can think of six GLs of varying regularity in France.


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## MarkR (Dec 29, 2016)

Is there anything left of GOOFUS, Glen?  They've been awfully quiet.  I don't even know if Halcyon Lodge is still functioning.  Their web site is defunct.  The GOOFUS Facebook page doesn't show any activity since 2014.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 29, 2016)

Fo


flameburns623 said:


> Thanks. Link was very informative.  I note that Le Droit Humain is apparently a mostly-White clandestine Masonic group. So it isn't just a Prince Hall issue.


For your  regular dose of clandestinism http://www.rgle.org.uk/


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## Glen Cook (Dec 29, 2016)

MarkR said:


> Is there anything left of GOOFUS, Glen?  They've been awfully quiet.  I don't even know if Halcyon Lodge is still functioning.  Their web site is defunct.  The GOOFUS Facebook page doesn't show any activity since 2014.


Good question. It went through its stage as one of the "Regular " GL group.  The last history I find is Ed King's http://www.masonicinfo.com/grandgrand.htm


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## Elexir (Dec 29, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Fo
> 
> For your  regular dose of clandestinism http://www.rgle.org.uk/



So they finally stoped pretending to work the Swedish rite.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 30, 2016)

flameburns623 said:


> The coworker, at 17, was honoring his Dad's memory by wearing Dad's Masonic ring, on the mean streets of inner-city St. Louis: and, someone professing to be a Mason themselves, accosted him and forcibly took his ring. Allegedly with a law officer present.


I've read about similar things many times on these forums and still find it unbelievable! I am very law abiding and have great respect for police officers (am a retired correctional officer myself) but if I had been accosted in this manner with an officer present I would have ended up in a lot of trouble! However, I have my doubts as to whether the "officer" was genuine.


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## Brother JC (Dec 31, 2016)

MarkR said:


> Is there anything left of GOOFUS, Glen?  They've been awfully quiet.  I don't even know if Halcyon Lodge is still functioning.  Their web site is defunct.  The GOOFUS Facebook page doesn't show any activity since 2014.



Yeah, what ever happened to old Brad C? He was all over the forums when I started e-quarrying.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 31, 2016)

Brother JC said:


> Yeah, what ever happened to old Brad C? He was all over the forums when I started e-quarrying.


There is some interesting info on Masonicinfo on the web about GOOFUS.


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## DORIAN RHOTEN (Nov 17, 2017)

I was raised at Mid-Winter here in Texas Nov 11, 2017. I was given a decal as a present. I am proud and honored to be amongst brethren Masons. if I put my decal on my vehicle could someone rightfully in masonry make me take it off if I am square but have yet to learn something in particular?


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## MRichard (Nov 17, 2017)

DORIAN RHOTEN said:


> I was raised at Mid-Winter here in Texas Nov 11, 2017. I was given a decal as a present. I am proud and honored to be amongst brethren Masons. if I put my decal on my vehicle could someone rightfully in masonry make me take it off if I am square but have yet to learn something in particular?



I would hope not. It's an unsavory practice that should have no place in our craft. But that's just my opinion! No one has the right to make you take off anything.


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 18, 2017)

MRichard said:


> I would hope not. It's an unsavory practice that should have no place in our craft. But that's just my opinion! No one has the right to make you take off anything.


Absolutely agree!


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## BroCaution (Nov 18, 2017)

I feel like a true and lawful brother Mason would never take an emblem from another brother. We are to be law abiding citizens you know.


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## MWS (Nov 18, 2017)

BroCaution said:


> I feel like a true and lawful brother Mason would never take an emblem from another brother. We are to be law abiding citizens you know.



This.
Still scratching my head that this happens in any recognized jurisdiction.


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 18, 2017)

BroCaution said:


> I feel like a true and lawful brother Mason would never take an emblem from another brother. We are to be law abiding citizens you know.





MWS said:


> Still scratching my head that this happens in any recognized jurisdiction.


Totally agree Brothers.


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## DORIAN RHOTEN (Nov 18, 2017)

I thank you all for the great information about the decal.

My next question is, Since I petitioned for PHA, My wife and I decided to also go O.E.S. at next initiation. I fully understand my role in O.E.S. and she has enhanced her role. I have notified my member of my lodge whom would submit my petition for O.E.S whom also is S.D. in my lodge. He says I need to know my blue house first (correct) but says he no deterring me, but I made that decision and know the work of learning both houses and dues will be there. can he deny me and if so what other options might I have?


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## David612 (Nov 18, 2017)

DORIAN RHOTEN said:


> I thank you all for the great information about the decal.
> 
> My next question is, Since I petitioned for PHA, My wife and I decided to also go O.E.S. at next initiation. I fully understand my role in O.E.S. and she has enhanced her role. I have notified my member of my lodge whom would submit my petition for O.E.S whom also is S.D. in my lodge. He says I need to know my blue house first (correct) but says he no deterring me, but I made that decision and know the work of learning both houses and dues will be there. can he deny me and if so what other options might I have?


He can’t deny you in my opinion, you should be considered as any other candidate should be, these people arnt in a position to dictate how your experience should be, just to determine if you are a worthy candidate.
People say “blue lodge first” I say F that! It’s your experience, do what you want to do, it’s about your search for light.
Being put in a position where you are guilted into something isn’t going to help you grow spiritually or make you even want to participate long term.


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## DORIAN RHOTEN (Nov 19, 2017)

David612 said:


> He can’t deny you in my opinion, you should be considered as any other candidate should be, these people arnt in a position to dictate how your experience should be, just to determine if you are a worthy candidate.
> People say “blue lodge first” I say F that! It’s your experience, do what you want to do, it’s about your search for light.
> Being put in a position where you are guilted into something isn’t going to help you grow spiritually or make you even want to participate long term.




you are very right. I understand there is much to learn but I did not get initiated, passed, and raised because I got lucky. I will continue my mission. I just need a definite yes or no if he can deny my petition.


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## David612 (Nov 19, 2017)

DORIAN RHOTEN said:


> you are very right. I understand there is much to learn but I did not get initiated, passed, and raised because I got lucky. I will continue my mission. I just need a definite yes or no if he can deny my petition.


Im not OES so I’m not 100% how they operate but if they block your application on those grounds I’d be reconsidering your affiliations.


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 19, 2017)

DORIAN RHOTEN said:


> you are very right. I understand there is much to learn but I did not get initiated, passed, and raised because I got lucky. I will continue my mission. I just need a definite yes or no if he can deny my petition.



They may have a blue lodge time requirement....


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## hiram357 (Nov 20, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> Yeah, what ever happened to old Brad C? He was all over the forums when I started e-quarrying.


Thankfully, he has faded away. He basically lost interest in Freemasonry. Last I saw on his Facebook page, he was now focusing on radical Marxist politics.


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 20, 2017)

hiram357 said:


> Thankfully, he has faded away. He basically lost interest in Freemasonry. Last I saw on his Facebook page, he was now focusing on radical Marxist politics.


Don't remember him but then my memory is not what it was, lol.


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## DORIAN RHOTEN (Nov 20, 2017)

Can someone please explain the screw on the compass as far as masonic goes?


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 20, 2017)

It holds the two arms together. ....

Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Bloke (Nov 20, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> It holds the two arms together. ....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


Enough with giving away the masonic secrets !


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 21, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> It holds the two arms together. ....





Bloke said:


> Enough with giving away the masonic secrets !


Settle down you guys, lol.


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## dfreybur (Nov 21, 2017)

DORIAN RHOTEN said:


> Can someone please explain the screw on the compass as far as masonic goes?



It reflects actual compasses.  Loosen the screw and you can adjust the span.  Tighten the screw and you can use the span to draw arcs.  Much of geometry flows from its use.

Do you want a symbolic meaning for that?  Nice.  I challenge you to do so.  For the screw part that is.


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## DORIAN RHOTEN (Nov 21, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> It reflects actual compasses.  Loosen the screw and you can adjust the span.  Tighten the screw and you can use the span to draw arcs.  Much of geometry flows from its use.
> 
> Do you want a symbolic meaning for that?  Nice.  I challenge you to do so.  For the screw part that is.




Thank you very much! I am trying to learn and get full understanding of the blue house and all our working tools and our greater and lesser lights.


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## bupton52 (Dec 2, 2017)

DORIAN RHOTEN said:


> Thank you very much! I am trying to learn and get full understanding of the blue house and all our working tools and our greater and lesser lights.



I can give you a super important bit of information. You will never know everything about Craft Masonry. Ever. The meanings for things may remain the same but the personal application will change as you live life. JMO


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 3, 2017)

bupton52 said:


> You will never know everything about Craft Masonry. Ever. The meanings for things may remain the same but the personal application will change as you live life. JMO


Totally agree!


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## Ajay Chandar (Dec 9, 2017)

Anybody who tried to 'take my light' from me would have the living daylights knocked out of them.

This thankfully isn't a problem where I live - there's no clandestine Masonry here.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 9, 2017)

Ajay Chandar said:


> Anybody who tried to 'take my light' from me would have the living daylights knocked out of them.


100% with you on this Brother.


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## Bird_n_hand (Dec 23, 2017)

Sammcd said:


> then ask of what was I searching. I said I was searching for lunch and wanted a double meat and cheese burger and fries.


Lmbo that's worth a chuckle in my book


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## Bird_n_hand (Dec 23, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Enough with giving away the masonic secrets !


That's a secret XD seems pretty obvious to me lmbo


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## Plustax (Jan 6, 2018)

Has anyone heard of Smooth Ashlar Grand Lodge of Lithonia Georgia?  A person from there has been looking for financial assistance in North Texas lodges.

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## Glen Cook (Jan 6, 2018)

Plustax said:


> Has anyone heard of Smooth Ashlar Grand Lodge of Lithonia Georgia?  A person from there has been looking for financial assistance in North Texas lodges.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H910 using My Freemasonry mobile app


Yes, it is clandestine, though somewhat older. Only GL of GA and PHA GA are regular in that state, though those two are not in amity. If you do a search on the Phyllaxis site, they have a history of the group.


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## Plustax (Jan 6, 2018)

Tnx Bro Cook. By chance can you recommend some documentation on clandestine masonry? I've seen things such as guarding the West Gate, etc.  I would like to find something good that I can present to my lodge members.

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## Glen Cook (Jan 6, 2018)

You can start here, and read current and some old Commission reports.
http://www.recognitioncommission.org/index.html

Also look at the poorly named Commission on Bogus Freemasonry. 
http://thephylaxis.org/bogus/

What exactly are you looking for?  You have Pete  Normand in your jurisdiction who is a former member of the CGMNA Commission, above.


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## Plustax (Jan 6, 2018)

I am WM of East Fork #650, Wylie,Tx. We recently (this week)had a clandestine mason ask for financial assistance & he also informed me that he's asked a couple of other lodges in Dallas with no avail. As I began checking more in to this I discovered his lodge is clandestine. I have furnished his name to surrounding districts as he appears to be asking lodges around here for money. I have discovered he has been doing this since November(1st time he approached my lodge). This now has me wanting to give a "refresher" education on clandestine masons/lodges.

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## Warrior1256 (Jan 6, 2018)

Plustax said:


> This now has me wanting to give a "refresher" education on clandestine masons/lodges.


Not a bad idea for all GLs and lodges.


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## MarkR (Jan 7, 2018)

There's a new app for iPhone and Android, called "Amity."  It's free, and while still under development, it's pretty good at identifying the legitimate Grand Lodges, which ones are recognized by which, and the lodges under them.  I've got it on my Android tablet and my Android phone.


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## MarkR (Jan 7, 2018)

Warrior1256 said:


> Not a bad idea for all GLs and lodges.


I've got a presentation on Clandestine Masonry that I've given in a few lodges.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 7, 2018)

MarkR said:


> I've got a presentation on Clandestine Masonry that I've given in a few lodges.


Cool!


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## jeremy. (Feb 3, 2018)

MarkR said:


> I've got a presentation on Clandestine Masonry that I've given in a few lodges.



Mark, would you be willing to share?  I'd be interested to see how you frame it.

My understanding at the moment:

Clandestine: refers to a Grand Lodge that cannot trace its charter back to UGLE
Regular: refers to the landmarks, work/ritual, etc. used by a given Grand Lodge
Recognized: refers to the (wholly political) status of amity/fraternal relations between two Grand Lodges
...and all three of those are separate/distinct, and any of them can be mixed and matched, although it is generally a policy of Regular, non-Clandestine Grand Lodges to not recognize Grand Lodges that are not Regular and cannot trace their lineage to UGLE.


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## MarkR (Feb 4, 2018)

jeremy. said:


> Mark, would you be willing to share?  I'd be interested to see how you frame it.
> 
> My understanding at the moment:
> 
> ...



Your first point refers to legitimacy of origin.  You should know that it's not just UGLE or one of its progenitors (the Premier Grand Lodge (Moderns) or Antients) but any of the Grand Lodges of England, Ireland, or Scotland that a Grand Lodge must trace its lineage to.  The rest seems correct.  There are Grand Lodges that are regular but unrecognized.  A noted example is Italy.  UGLE recognizes the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy, while most American Grand Lodges recognize the Grand Orient of Italy.

My presentation needs perhaps a little updating and adjusting for your own jurisdiction, but otherwise I'd be happy to send you the PowerPoint.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 4, 2018)

MarkR said:


> ou should know that it's not just UGLE or one of its progenitors (the Premier Grand Lodge (Moderns) or Antients) but any of the Grand Lodges of England, Ireland, or Scotland that a Grand Lodge must trace its lineage to.


Thank you for this clarifying info Brother.


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## jeremy. (Feb 4, 2018)

Yes, thanks for the clarification!  That makes a lot of sense as the British were certainly not the only Freemasons when it all started.

I had the opportunity to go to London last summer for one of their Tercentenary celebrations, and joined some friends on a Masonic tour of Scotland before arriving in England.  We had the distinct pleasure of visiting Mother Kilwinning Lodge, whose members got a chuckle out of our excitement about UGLE's 300th... MKL has minutes dating back to 1642 and traces its history to 1140, so all the fuss about "300 years of Freemasonry" was a bit lost on them.


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## LK600 (Feb 4, 2018)

jeremy. said:


> We had the distinct pleasure of visiting Mother Kilwinning Lodge, whose members got a chuckle out of our excitement about UGLE's 300th... MKL has minutes dating back to 1642 and traces its history to 1140, so all the fuss about "300 years of Freemasonry" was a bit lost on them.



That is awesome.  Must have been a great experience.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 4, 2018)

jeremy. said:


> Recognized: refers to the (wholly political) status of amity/fraternal relations between two Grand Lodges
> ....



Br. Mark made other corrections, but it is not a wholly political decision.  In many cases it is one of applying Masonic law. The Stamdards of recognition used by CGMNA are seen here:http://www.recognitioncommission.org/publish/2004/06/10/the-standards-of-recognition/index.html


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## LK600 (Feb 4, 2018)

Is there anything close to a definitive list I could have a link to(recognized)?


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## jeremy. (Feb 4, 2018)

LK600 said:


> That is awesome.  Must have been a great experience.



I won't lie, it was pretty cool...


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## Glen Cook (Feb 4, 2018)

LK600 said:


> Is there anything close to a definitive list I could have a link to(recognized)?


Each GL makes their own determination. For instance, Utah recognised four of the Brazillian Grand Orients this week. I don’t know that your GL has done or that it will do so.
 The UGLE list is here: http://www.ugle.org.uk/about/foreign-grand-lodges


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## jeremy. (Feb 4, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Br. Mark made other corrections, but it is not a wholly political decision.  In many cases it is one of applying Masonic law. The Stamdards of recognition used by CGMNA are seen here:http://www.recognitioncommission.org/publish/2004/06/10/the-standards-of-recognition/index.html



Those are standards, yes.  But "recognition" in and of itself is an action for a Grand Lodge to take, which can only be done through a process that entails voting as a Grand Lodge, at a Grand Communication.  So... technically, it actually IS a wholly political process.  

To be fair, though, I was actually referring to the process of proposing that one Grand Lodge recognize another in the first place.  Given that there are so many options out there of who to recognize, picking "the right one" out of all of the ones that are both regular and not clandestine is politics at its best.  "Mainstream" Freemasonry's historic refusal (primarily in America, interestingly) to acknowledge Grand Lodges composed of non-whites and females is proof that the standards you reference have very little to do with the actual question of who gets recognized.  I note with interest that not a single Prince Hall Grand Lodge is part of the CGMNA, regardless of how many of the Conference's members recognize their local (non-clandestine, regular) PH counterpart.

@MarkR, is there a single term for "not clandestine"?  Most people say "regular", but as we've defined above that's not actually correct.



LK600 said:


> Is there anything close to a definitive list I could have a link to(recognized)?



Not that I'm aware of.  Part of the problem is that any "list" has to be written ~400*~400 times, as recognition, while typically discussed as bilateral, is actually the product of two Grand Lodges taking unilateral (albeit well-timed) action to recognize each other.  That's what allows things like the current one-way recognition between NY and Scotland to exist... NY got mad and pulled recognition, but the Scots shrugged their shoulders and basically said "whatever, we still like you".

Amity is the closest thing I know of (and to be fair, I'm helping build it) to a digital roster, but I gotta tell you, all of the politics involved has made it a real pain to actually get everything 100% correct.


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## jeremy. (Feb 4, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Utah recognised four of the Brazillian Grand Orients this week.



Glen, do you know which four?  I'd like to update Amity's list.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 4, 2018)

jeremy. said:


> Those are standards, yes.  But "recognition" in and of itself is an action for a Grand Lodge to take, which can only be done through a process that entails voting as a Grand Lodge, at a Grand Communication.  So... technically, it actually IS a wholly political process.
> .



not all GLs vote.


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## dfreybur (Feb 4, 2018)

LK600 said:


> Is there anything close to a definitive list I could have a link to(recognized)?



California publishes its list in the annual Proceedings of the Annual Communication.  I download a copy most years to make it easy to look up.

So far I haven't found the Texas list.

I've got an attitude about how easy or hard it is to find the list with respect to where I would visit should I find myself on international travel.  I'll use an easily found list.  I'll make a best guess if the list is not easily found, but I will NOT automatically guess a jurisdiction isn't recognized.  Generosity after all.

In my work travels this has mostly applied to looking up MWPHGL lodges in various states that have local recognition.  If any state has local recognition and I can't tell from all of my jurisdictions I go with the California one I can tell easily.  If one of my jurisdictions didn't want me to visit a regular and recognized lodge they would have made it easy for me to look them up.  I promised to follow the rules but not to be afraid of fellowship in cases where the rules aren't visible.  I only promised to follow the rules I can actually look up.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 4, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> California publishes its list in the annual Proceedings of the Annual Communication.  I download a copy most years to make it easy to look up.
> 
> So far I haven't found the Texas list.
> 
> ...


Well, it is difficult, isn’t it?   Not everyone carries Pantagraph’s List of Lodges Masonic with them, and it’s not always correct.   Amity’s developers are making a credible effort, but it isn’t there yet, and it will similarly always be subject to updates.


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## dfreybur (Feb 5, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Well, it is difficult, isn’t it?   Not everyone carries Pantagraph’s List of Lodges Masonic with them, and it’s not always correct.   Amity’s developers are making a credible effort, but it isn’t there yet, and it will similarly always be subject to updates.



I've been to lodges whose Pantagraph copy was many years old.  For inaccuracy that's far worse than just looking up on the UGLE web site.  My combination method of UGLE plus Conferences of Grand Masters plus the California list in whatever Proceedings I've downloaded beats an 8 old old copy of Pantagraph by a huge margin.

It wasn't difficult for me to decide that if one of my my jurisdictions doesn't bother to make its recognition list easily visible that gives me open season to decide for myself.  "Silence affirms assent" - The fact that there is no recognition list on my GL's web site is assent for me to present myself to tilers based on a generous best guess when I'm out of town for work.


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