# Oh My God (Spin Off)



## owls84 (Nov 24, 2009)

When you look at the trailer found here (Oh My God Thread) there is a quote... 



> The trouble with religion today is that there is just enough of it for people to learn to hate each other, but not enough for them to learn to love each other.



Well do you feel this is true? How does this make you feel? What do you think of when you see this? 

My Story: This makes me think of the thread on the rebel flag. The ones that know the true meaning know it is not a flag of hate. However, the ones that don't have a clue or have not taken the time to learn still look to the rebel flag as a symbol for slavery or racism. This related to this by saying those that take the time to study some religions know that they teach love not hate but many use religion as a reason to hate. Do you have to know to hate before you can love or love before you can hate? 

This should be a good discussion if everyone takes part. I have a feeling though most will read but not respond.


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## JTM (Nov 24, 2009)

Well, light without dark, good without evil, sure it's all in there.  Love without hate?  I don't know that you need to know to love or hate first (chicken vs egg argument there), but it's hard to define one without the other.

For me, it's like altitude.  How do you know how high up you are if you don't know where sea level is?  If you don't, does that mean you aren't at any height?  No.  You just can't accurately measure (therefore define) it.

In terms of the quote, I doubt you _need_ religion to love each other, but it is a reason people use to hate and love one person or another.  But what's the real goal?  That we'll all get along with each others' religions?  I doubt that's realistic.  I think the problem is fear.  If you don't know about someone, you naturally fear them.  It's a good evolutionary trait.  

So it boils down to that.  Some countries are very homogeneous in terms of culture and physical appearance, and you'll notice there is not much civil unrest there.  Then others, like America, where we've come to have large populations of peoples from all over the world, there's too much to know for one person.  When you are out of your element, you are nervous.  

Is this really a bad thing?  No, not really.  Like I said, I think it's a good evolutionary trait.  At the same time, it all depends on where you take it.  If you want to go the destructive route of taking your fear/hatred to action, then you're hurting yourself just as much as you're hurting them.  The opportunity costs are pretty big for something like that.  

With the Japanese, in the 40s, everyone hated them and put them in concentration camps here in the US.  Now they are great trading partners.  People got over the fact that they knew nothing about them, but over time, realized that they have things to contribute and our market appreciate that.  Good trade came to the rescue and now we get along fine with them.  I'd say that time and money made the difference.  The "average american" still really doesn't know anything about them, but they've come to appreciate the benefits of a mutual trading relationship.

Same for Vietnam now.  How did we defeat their cruel government?  With 500k troops or with trade?  Why do I chose the word "defeat" when it really comes down to getting along.

But at the same time, this isn't ever going to go away.  We see this motif all the time.  As soon as we find a good balance with a new people, another comes along and screws it all up.  A constant cycle of loving and hating.  

And the answer?  I doubt there's really any "final solution" to have.  Just getting older and tired of fighting and fearing someone helps.  It all reminds me of the checkered pavement and of chalk, charcoal, and clay.  I posted this lecture a while back, but it had to do with those things.  

The symbol of the checkered pavement would have us believe that life is about good vs evil, black vs white, one thing versus another.  Then there's chalk, charcoal, and clay.  Sure, there are easy answers, chalk and charcoal.  Black or white.  But most of the answers are gray (clay), and where we find our sustenance, no less.  

Maybe it's not really all about having love or hate, but more about finding a common ground where we can get along and mutually benefit.


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## Blake Bowden (Nov 24, 2009)

The problem isn't Religion, it's us. We twist and conform Religion to suit our own agendas.


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## scottmh59 (Nov 24, 2009)

thats  the problem with religion..it gives you what you want when you want it.

you can murder 1000's of people,repent on your death bed and your saved...bs


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## rhitland (Nov 24, 2009)

Swimming in the deep in of the pool takes time and is not for everyone. Do not hate on everybody Josh.. !

I am reminded of the day I was "saved" when I was 9. It was for two reasons because my older brother did it and I did not want to burn in hades as the preacher said.


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## JTM (Nov 24, 2009)

> So it boils down to that. Some countries are very homogeneous in terms of culture and physical appearance, and you'll notice there is not much civil unrest there. Then others, like America, where we've come to have large populations of peoples from all over the world, there's too much to know for one person. When you are out of your element, you are nervous.



fixed that paragraph.  at first i left out the "not" as in i should have said what is here... there's NOT much civil unrest when the people are homogeneous.


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## Payne (Dec 1, 2009)

blake said:


> The problem isn't Religion, it's us. We twist and conform Religion to suit our own agendas.





Religion, has become an all you can eat buffet. God has nothing to do with Religion other that We use Religion to become closer to God. 


As for 





> The trouble with religion today is that there is just enough of it for people to learn to hate each other, but not enough for them to learn to love each other.




I don't think Religion causes  people to learn to hate each other, I think our own prejudices do that for us.


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## TCShelton (Dec 1, 2009)

Payne said:


> Religion, has become an all you can eat buffet. God has nothing to do with Religion other that We use Religion to become closer to God.



+1.


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## owls84 (Dec 1, 2009)

> With the Japanese, in the 40s, everyone hated them and put them in concentration camps here in the US. Now they are great trading partners. People got over the fact that they knew nothing about them, but over time, realized that they have things to contribute and our market appreciate that. Good trade came to the rescue and now we get along fine with them. I'd say that time and money made the difference. The "average american" still really doesn't know anything about them, but they've come to appreciate the benefits of a mutual trading relationship.



Could we see this happening with the Muslim faith? By this I mean could we see such a prejudice as it seems to be happening then to learn to co-exist. I kind of see 9/11 as my generations Pearl Harbor and the way we are being predjudice of the Muslim's are similar to how the Japanese were treated (not to that extreem but you know). 

Really just thinking out loud. Does anyone want to build on this?


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## TCShelton (Dec 1, 2009)

No, religious beliefs and nationalistic beliefs are different.  One involves your soul, and the other only patriotism.


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## owls84 (Dec 1, 2009)

What I am seeing though are the similarities. The Kamakaze bombers and the Suicide Bombers, the way the Japanese were treated to the way we treat Muslims. That is really where I was going with it. 

Could you guys see a turning point or is this stuff all in vain?


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## TCShelton (Dec 1, 2009)

I believe that as long as each religion teaches that it is the only way to salvation, and all others are wrong, we will have these problems.


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## ljlinson1206 (Dec 1, 2009)

TCShelton said:


> I believe that as long as each religion teaches that it is the only way to salvation, and all others are wrong, we will have these problems.



That's the problem I see with organized religion.  Every "sect" believes that they are the only "road" to get to heaven. This isn't just with, christian, muslem, budhist and so on, but look at the christian community.  If your not catholic, or protostant, or southern baptist, or methodist or church of christ then you have a one way ticket straight to hell.  When are we going to stop fighting amongst each other.  Why is it so hard to agree that Jesus Christ is lord and savior and the path to the father and that's enough?  Why do we as christians have to be right about our faith and say everybody else is wrong?  Once we "fix" ourselves then maybe we can teach or show love to everyone else and hope it is passed back to us.

Just my opinion.


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## TCShelton (Dec 1, 2009)

ljlinson1206 said:


> That's the problem I see with organized religion.  Every "sect" believes that they are the only "road" to get to heaven. This isn't just with, christian, muslem, budhist and so on, but look at the christian community.  If your not catholic, or protostant, or southern baptist, or methodist or church of christ then you have a one way ticket straight to hell.  When are we going to stop fighting amongst each other.  Why is it so hard to agree that Jesus Christ is lord and savior and the path to the father and that's enough?  Why do we as christians have to be right about our faith and say everybody else is wrong?  Once we "fix" ourselves then maybe we can teach or show love to everyone else and hope it is passed back to us.
> 
> Just my opinion.



+1.


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## owls84 (Dec 2, 2009)

I totally support that answer ljl. My question is why do we try and force people into believing? Regardless of the religion. I want to go into this more but really don't know how. Why can't people decide for themselves? It just seems more blood is spilled in the name of God then anything. I mean hell look at some of the hottest posts on here they involve religion.

I know this is a fight we will never win nor should we fight. It is not for me to tell a man his beliefs are wrong it is for a higher being. I have a feeling we can all be right. 

Side Note: I watched a show about Cain and Abel on Nat Geo Channel and they pointed out how the major religions have similarities in the stories taught in Genisus and it really got me thinking. You take that and mix it with the fact that in BC time men on both sides of the world were building pyrimids and monuments that resembled each other there has to be something that ties every single person together. (deeper discussion topic)


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## TCShelton (Dec 2, 2009)

owls84 said:


> My question is why do we try and force people into believing?



For a two reasons:

1.  It is in our nature to try to assert our authority over others, and make them assimilate.

2.  Because these various religions tell us we should evangelize and convince others to believe as we do.


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## rhitland (Dec 2, 2009)

owls84 said:


> I totally support that answer ljl. My question is why do we try and force people into believing? Regardless of the religion. I want to go into this more but really don't know how. Why can't people decide for themselves? It just seems more blood is spilled in the name of God then anything. I mean hell look at some of the hottest posts on here they involve religion.
> 
> I know this is a fight we will never win nor should we fight. It is not for me to tell a man his beliefs are wrong it is for a higher being. I have a feeling we can all be right.
> 
> Side Note: I watched a show about Cain and Abel on Nat Geo Channel and they pointed out how the major religions have similarities in the stories taught in Genisus and it really got me thinking. You take that and mix it with the fact that in BC time men on both sides of the world were building pyrimids and monuments that resembled each other there has to be something that ties every single person together. (deeper discussion topic)



Forcing ones religion on another is just human nature. People who experienced  profound moments of discovery and revelation are quick to think everybody wants and needs the same thing. It is just in our nature when we are excited and feel we "know" something we cannot wait to share it with the world. Where the forcing came in is when the ego played into the whole religion thing which will give man a feeling his is better and lead him to monsterous acts. When your salvation is at risk you will do some crazy things.

Your side point to me is proof we are all right. Why do we build all in the same manner even across the globe? It is because God laid down laws which govern our realities and are the same for every human the only difference is the interpretation that got us there. Not everyone will understand Muhammad's message nor Jesus's this is why we have multiple religions so each can receive Divine providence in his own way.


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## Zack (Dec 2, 2009)

Just MHO, but I think those that would push their religion or belief system on others are looking for some sort of confirmation that their way is the correct way.  They are insecure in their own minds as to what they believe.


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## TCShelton (Dec 2, 2009)

Zack said:


> Just MHO, but I think those that would push their religion or belief system on others are looking for some sort of confirmation that their way is the correct way.  They are insecure in their own minds as to what they believe.



Right, but how do you handle it when your religion dictates that you should seek to evangelize and convert nonbelievers?


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## drapetomaniac (Dec 2, 2009)

owls84 said:


> This makes me think of the thread on the rebel flag. The ones that know the true meaning know it is not a flag of hate. However, the ones that don't have a clue or have not taken the time to learn still look to the rebel flag as a symbol for slavery or racism.



Maybe this is a good example.  Because I've studied and I disagree with your take on the flag and posted specific reasons and quotations etc, yet its characterized as not having studied or put any thought into it. 

The same is done in religion.  Instead of disagreeing, it continues to into characterization of effort, motives, etc (as happened with others in that thread).

People who want something to be good will ignore the bad, People who want something to be bad will ignore the good.

People who actually pay attention while looking into it will usually see both and deal with it.


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## drapetomaniac (Dec 2, 2009)

TCShelton said:


> I believe that as long as each religion teaches that it is the only way to salvation, and all others are wrong, we will have these problems.



Each religion doesn't.  I'm only aware of the Abrahamic religions and Zoroastrianism with concrete tenets that focus on religions other than themselves.


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## Blake Bowden (Jan 6, 2010)

I found this quote earlier today...

"Religions today have "REPRESENTATIVES" that sell you the "TRUTH" for money."

The more I think about it, the more I agree.


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