# Is Christianity really compatible with Freemasonry?



## jjjjjggggg (Jul 23, 2014)

I realize this will probably open up one of the seven vials of wrath to come raining down upon me, but I am curious to not only your thoughts, but how my Christian brothers personally reconcile the two philosophies. I'm NOT saying they aren't compatible, but I am simply trying to understand.

I did try to find any threads discussing the question, but came up short, especially of any personal reconciliations. So if any brothers are willing to share and graciously forgive my ignorance, I would appreciate it.

In full disclosure I was a Christian for 12 years until 2006. I would like to think I was well read, not only in early church history and bible hermeneutics, but varying Christian doctrine and philosophical arguments between the Christian sects. I've also read quite a bit of the early church fathers, natural philosophy writers, and even the eastern religious/philosophical leaders of India and China. I've read the bible quite a few times and a lot of the non-canonical and apocryphal writings. My point is not to brag about how read up I am but to show that this is something I've looked into in depth. I don't want to come across as a guy trying to stir the pot, especially without having dug into the question myself or appearing lazy.

So I guess my point is that as a former fundamentalist Christian I'm trying to understand how Christian Freemasons are able to reconcile the two without there being a bit of cognitive dissonance.


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## JJones (Jul 23, 2014)

I consider myself to be Christian but I have, and still do, read quite a bit into other faiths...some of which I'm very fond of.

I've seen this question asked before elsewhere but I always find myself wondering what there is to reconcile?  I've never seen or hear anything within Freemasonry that contradicts or opposes my faith in any way and I've constantly been reminded that my duties to God, neighbor, country, and family should always come before Freemasonry.  The opening and closing charge reminds of of this in fact and it's a shame that they aren't used more often here in Texas.

So I'm curious about what in particular are you referring to?  If you can refer to it in an open forum, that is.


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## jjjjjggggg (Jul 23, 2014)

Sure, my hang up is obviously personal in that it's my own weakness that I find difficulty reconciling the two. Not that I think Christians shouldn't be masons, only that from my own rose-colored glasses it seems the foundational doctrines of Christianity seem in conflict with the principles of masonry. Not the parts that espouse such ideals as brotherly love, truth, and relief... they obviously have these in common... but the more esoteric principles, such as the ideas of obtaining the lost master's word that gains one admission into the eternal lodge above. 

Not that the Hiramaic legend should be taken in a literal sense, do we as mason's really believe in an actual lodge in an eternal abode or that the tragedy of Hiram is an actual historical narrative? No doubt we reference our teachings as a beautiful system of morality taught in allegory.

What I'm getting at, for the Christian where does one draw the line between what is taken as allegorical and what is literal in the Bible? Of course, for some, such as in universalism, there is an openness to all religious truths, but to a former fundamentalist as myself, evangelical teachings would say it is through the redemptive work of Jesus alone that one finds redemption and justification, and that nothing that a person can do may justify themselves before the throne of God except a saving faith in Christ. If this is so, where is there room to "travel east in search of the lost word"? 

Also, the idea that men can obligate themselves together regardless of personal philosophical or religious understanding, but the belief in supreme deity, when the Christian would say that those who have no intimate knowledge of Christ may ever grace the eternal abode of god. So wouldn't the labor of a buddhist or Muslim freemason be for naught? Though he be a good man on earth, he is still not worthy of paradise.

It is also my understanding, that if Christ and his words be taken as literal, the Christian's focus should be that of following him alone, and there is no meeting on the level with the unbeliever. They are not equal, nor are they to fellowship for what fellowship has light with darkness... Darkness in that freemasonry gives no prominence to Christ, nor do we as Freemasons give place to his sacrifice in our rituals. Not that we don't use judeo-christian references, or subtlety mention Christ, but the two are obviously separate. I would remind you of the problems traditional orthodox Christianity had with early hermetic/gnostic traditions and how one triumphed over the other not by shear truth alone but at the point of the sword.

I could go on and on, but it all comes down to my own cognitive dissonance, what I'm really interested in is how Christian brothers are able to satisfy their own consciences in the matter. Not to triumph in argument, but because I have an evangelical Christian friend who may soon be interested in petitioning and I would like to help reconcile any doubts he may have with his own personal faith and the false accusations made by the anti's to say such a union is not appropriate for the "true Christian".


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## JJones (Jul 23, 2014)

Those are some interesting questions.  I wanted to jump right in with my own answers but they say a wise man listens twice as much as he speaks.

I'm going to watch and see what more experience brothers have to say about this...then maybe I'll give my two cents.


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## BroBook (Jul 23, 2014)

Ok my brothers good topic, I live for this as to which parts of "The Book" should be taken literally and which as allegories , "I " look at it with the understanding that the word of Truth needs to be rightly divided because the Word was changed by dishonest scribes, also it is written and made plain they  we ( believers) are to contend for the truth that was given understanding that while the servants slept the Enemy crept in unawares , as for as the term Christianity what do it really mean and who is practicing it correctly, all it really means is that you believe The God of Israel came to earth as a man and got got, as part of a plan to get rid of the confusion cause by no work being on the board, that's all for now, let the conversation continue!!!! WWEA.


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 23, 2014)

Freemasonry was founded by Christians who remained Christian. As for esoterica, Christianity has long seen fit to use symbolic representations. Anti-Christian rhetoric has no more place in Freemasonry than does anti-Jew rhetoric any other anti-rhetoric.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jul 23, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> Freemasonry was founded by Christians who remained Christian.


Are you sure about this?  I thought the origins of Freemasonry were shrouded in mystery.  Doesn't that sort of discount Pythagoras, Euclid and King Solomon?


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## jjjjjggggg (Jul 24, 2014)

I found this article and thought it to be one of the better researched articles written by an anti-mason Christian, as compared to the goofy misrepresentations and out-right ignorance of most anti-masons. 

My question to my Christian brothers are what are your thoughts? As a former Christian I see where this guy makes a pretty reasonable argument against Christians being Freemasons from a biblical perspective compared to masonic teachings.

www.pfo.org/masonldg.htm


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 24, 2014)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Are you sure about this?  I thought the origins of Freemasonry were shrouded in mystery.  Doesn't that sort of discount Pythagoras, Euclid and King Solomon?



It was founded in England and Scotland in the late 17th century. Given stronger form in the early 18th. That whole "Pythagoras, Euclid and King Solomon" schtick is just a schtick. It's useful for mining to provide symbolism.


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 24, 2014)

Despite the crusade of some Masons to banish Christians from the Craft, the essay proves nothing.

I can admit that "Great Architect" is a phrase that can describe God. I can admit that all other humans seek after God. I can even admit that all those other ways of worshiping Him are still directed toward Him, but far more imperfectly than approaching Him through Christ would be. Likewise, the trappings of Freemasonry are not given specific salvific meaning WITHIN Freemasonry. An outsider must invent and pretend such meanings. Likewise, those various figures "identified" with Hiram Abif have ALSO been "identified" with Christ--as PREFIGURATIONS or other symbolic representations.

For traditional Christians (those who haven't had their theology made up last week), the universe has been prefiguring and symbolizing the Incarnation almost from the beginning. Thus, other men might exist who imperfectly and incompletely reflect some aspect of Christ. But Christ is the true form.

In addition, the author of the essay appears to be intellectually quite stunted. He is unable to understand what a "symbol" is. This mental disorder is, unfortunately common among a certain flavor of American Christian, who insists that every single thing MUST be taken in as literally a way as possible--unless it doesn't fit their own prejudices, then they allow for "symbolic" interpretations. To be raised up by a firm grip is a symbol of the Resurrection--no grip is firmer than the Grip of God, of the True, Triune God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Likewise, certain stunted types have a great difficulty with any world that isn't essentially a theocratic dictatorship, with their little sect on top. Thus, ANY admission of fellowship with anyone not of the "right sort" is denounced as blasphemy.

As a Christian, I can not only "admit", but I must INSIST that "my" God is the God of all others. Even if they do not know it themselves, even if they imperil themselves by the errors they attach to Him. That being said, the best way for me to do this is by an example of my life, NOT by beating them over the head with it. Were I to take the head-beating path so popular among Evangelicals, for example, I would be nothing but "a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal". "Witness" is not the same thing as proselytizing, no matter how much modern American "Christians" think that aggressive (and aggressive friendliness is still aggressive) proselytizing is "witness".

"...[T]hese three remain: Faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love."


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 24, 2014)

Thus, we Christians are permitted to be Freemasons, no matter how much some may wish to kick us out of the Craft.


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## otherstar (Jul 24, 2014)

Brother Maloney, I don't always agree with you, but these last few posts have been spot on. I like the notion of Hiram Abiff as a prefiguration, or a type (for those into typology), for Christ. It makes that particular allegory in our ritual far more rich.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jul 24, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> It was founded in England and Scotland in the late 17th century. Given stronger form in the early 18th.


Thank you for the clarification.  It has shown me that it will be impossible for us to have a discussion because we are talking about different things.  You are discussing Speculative Freemasonry which was formalized by the formation of the UGLE in 1717.  When I say Freemasonry I am talking about the evolution of  Operative Freemasonry and Speculative Freemasonry.  

Knowing what I believe is of little value to me unless I understand why I believe it.  Understanding why is a rabbit hole that never ends, despite the well intentioned proselytizing by people on both sides of the fence.  Because I am human, there is always a deeper truth buried under the truth I currently understand.  

Perhaps the lost word is lost because it cannot be known by knowing it, perhaps it can only be known by searching for it.


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## jjjjjggggg (Jul 24, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> Thus, we Christians are permitted to be Freemasons, no matter how much some may wish to kick us out of the Craft.



Thanks for the reply. 

Do you think that the misunderstanding by evangelical Christians that you mention and the crusade of their leaders to warn their members about freemasonry has somehow hurt the craft? If so, how can Christian Freemasons combat this?

Also, there is a movement to kick Christians out of the craft?!? I've not been aware of this till now. Please, tell me more.


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## dfreybur (Jul 24, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> Do you think that the misunderstanding by evangelical Christians that you mention and the crusade of their leaders to warn their members about freemasonry has somehow hurt the craft?



I rather like the opposition of those I consider not of sound mind.  I think their crusade helps us.  I like more the support of those I do consider of sound mind, but I'll take it either way.  Anyone can glance at the example set by Antis and the example set by a local Mason in their neighborhood - And that's all it takes.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Jul 24, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> I found this article and thought it to be one of the better researched articles written by an anti-mason Christian, as compared to the goofy misrepresentations and out-right ignorance of most anti-masons.
> 
> www.pfo.org/masonldg.htm



The problem here (yet again) is that the author of the article would like to have us believe that the interpretation of "the rules" which he presents is the only one that counts. Note that I did not say _his interpretation_. I rather doubt that he's actually given a lot of independent thought to that. He's just repeating what some other "authority" told him. Regardless of the actual source, the claimed authority is the problem. If the author were to use his beliefs to govern his own actions, fine. That is what we are all supposed to do. But if religious zealots, of any stripe, have anything in common, it's the need to force their beliefs on others, and that is the problem. Maybe it's just misguided "witnessing", as Bryan points out, but all too often its more,  like the minister that informs the Mason's wife that her husband is "...unknowingly worshiping Satan..." at his lodge meetings, or the imam who calls for the execution of the woman who marries a Christian.  

Sadly, I see little chance for change on the horizon. Too many people are unwilling/unable to muster the spiritual courage to walk their chosen path on their own. They must have the comfort of others, conscripted or not, walking with them.


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## jjjjjggggg (Jul 24, 2014)

> Brother,
> 
> I ordinarily would let something like this pass, but not this time.  Hopefully I do not offend anyone along the way.



Outstanding reply!!! Thank you for your response.

As far as the article, in all it's weaknesses, it was far better researched than the typical diatribe by some lazy anti-mason. Though I may not agree with someone's conclusions, I don't suffer the fools who can't at least try and make a reasonable counterpoint.

Thanks again brother!


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## dfreybur (Jul 25, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> Also, there is a movement to kick Christians out of the craft?!? I've not been aware of this till now. Please, tell me more.



The movement is by the antis not by us.  On our end that's all there is to it.  if you want more you'd need to go to the antis for that.  On the one hand it can be sadly entertaining to listen to the rantings of lunatics.  On the other hand increased exposure to illness increases risk of contagion even with mental illnesses.


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## dfreybur (Jul 25, 2014)

dalinkou said:


> God of the Lodge
> When I first started coming around the Lodge, I noticed that most people addressed a prayer to the Great Architect or the Supreme Architect, and ended it with "So Mote It Be".  So, as a Christian, I questioned this.  Later, a brother opened a prayer with "Heavenly Father".  Then I really questioned it, and he explained that every man prays as he prays.  One may call him Father, another GAOTU, or whatever, and the "So Mote It Be" serves as "Amen" for the brethren, or say "Amen" if you prefer.  The point being, that my God (or idea of Him) is as valid as the next man's.  Conversely, that makes another man's exalted idea of his Divine Creator as valid as mine, thus designating the point where I must part ways with dogmatic thinking.



Valid to him does not equal valid to you.  We are not required to agree and that's why we don't discuss sectarian religion in lodge.  Lodge is a place where a man will not be proselytized.  If this is a problem for fundies then I do agree they should not petition.  Of course work is also a place where a person should not be proselytized.  One wonders how fundies justify making a living as I would expect them to get fired from multiple jobs for harassing fellow employees.

Tolerance is not agreement; tolerance is agreeing to disagree.
Tolerance is not acceptance; tolerance is agreeing to mutual peace.
Tolerance is not acquiescence; tolerance is cooperating on points of mutual value.
Tolerance is not dogmatic thinking; tolerance is Masonic thinking.

When I read the article in question it was about salvation as I expected.  It repeated what I already knew, that salvation is not about good works.  Masonry is about personal excellence - Making good men better by an assortment of subtle and nearly invisible methods.  Masonry is mostly about good works.  Two topics, two ships in passing in the night.


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## Attila Weinberger (Jul 26, 2014)

There is a doctrinal conflict between Masonry and Christianity. The first has been founded on fire while the second achieves redemption through water. Only the first - following Cain's heritage and tradition, is able to create that particular frame within the second can thrive and flourish almost unconditionally. The rest is the history of a millennium long fun...


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## jjjjjggggg (Jul 27, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> Freemasonry was founded by Christians who remained Christian.



That's a pretty bold ascertation. Who were the founding fathers of speculative masonry, and are we sure that every single one of them were Christian? And do we have sufficient knowledge to know for sure that none of them had deconverted later in life?

Even so, even if all of them were Christian, it still doesn't mean that freemasonry as a philosophy is compatible with Christianity.

But as has been pointed out above, the term Christianity doesn't encompass one single interpretation, so the initial question itself is flawed. So for any minister or preacher to say otherwise is wrong. There is no one single guiding authority, at least not anymore, so no man may make a blanket edict concerning whether or not Christians should be masons or not. It is left to a man's own personal convictions and "guidance by the Holy Spirit".


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## dfreybur (Jul 27, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> That's a pretty bold ascertation. Who were the founding fathers of speculative masonry, and are we sure that every single one of them were Christian? And do we have sufficient knowledge to know for sure that none of them had deconverted later in life?



I don't think it's that bold an assertion as long as it s used to refer to the foundation of the Premier Gland Lodge of England in 1717.  They required their members to be Christians for a couple of decades before dropping that requirement.

Of course it can't refer to the mythical foundation of the order by Solomon, Hiram and Hiram in 3000 BC because of the timing, and it does not refer to the current time because that requirement has long since been dropped.



> Even so, even if all of them were Christian, it still doesn't mean that freemasonry as a philosophy is compatible with Christianity.



Also true even though it seems in conflict with the requirement at that time.  In fact as in this discussion whether we're compatible is an individual decision, so it's also true that any one person claiming incompatibility doesn't make it incompatible for others.



> But as has been pointed out above, the term Christianity doesn't encompass one single interpretation, so the initial question itself is flawed. So for any minister or preacher to say otherwise is wrong. There is no one single guiding authority, at least not anymore, so no man may make a blanket edict concerning whether or not Christians should be masons or not. It is left to a man's own personal convictions and "guidance by the Holy Spirit".



I would phase it that there is a single guiding authority, but that it's one inside everyone's heart and every heart may hear a different tune.


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## Morris (Jul 27, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> I don't think it's that bold an assertion as long as it s used to refer to the foundation of the Premier Gland Lodge of England in 1717.  They required their members to be Christians for a couple of decades before dropping that requirement.
> 
> Of course it can't refer to the mythical foundation of the order by Solomon, Hiram and Hiram in 3000 BC because of the timing, and it does not refer to the current time because that requirement has long since been dropped.
> 
> ...



Because I love history so much, do you know a reputable book on this tidbit of info?  I would like to read about the transition of dropping the requirement. Thanks 



Jeff


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## jjjjjggggg (Jul 27, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> I don't think it's that bold an assertion as long as it s used to refer to the foundation of the Premier Gland Lodge of England in 1717.  They required their members to be Christians for a couple of decades before dropping that requirement.
> 
> Of course it can't refer to the mythical foundation of the order by Solomon, Hiram and Hiram in 3000 BC because of the timing, and it does not refer to the current time because that requirement has long since been dropped.



It's a bold assertion until a credible and reliable source is quoted. I've just  started Joseph Fort Newton's "The Builders". I've heard that it provides a more reasonable, honest, and thorough look at the beginnings of speculative masonry. I'm hoping that it doesn't disappoint.


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 28, 2014)

Attila Weinberger said:


> There is a doctrinal conflict between Masonry and Christianity. The first has been founded on fire while the second achieves redemption through water. Only the first - following Cain's heritage and tradition, is able to create that particular frame within the second can thrive and flourish almost unconditionally. The rest is the history of a millennium long fun...



If there is a doctrinal conflict between Masonry and Christianity, then no Christian can be a Mason and no Mason can be a Christian, it is that simple. In addition, Christianity is founded upon fire AND water. It was tongues of flame that bestowed the Church upon the Apostles at Pentecost, and they baptized by water. Claiming that, to be a Freemason, one must be a Cainite, is imposing religious dogma upon Freemasonry and going along with all the lies told by its various clerical enemies over the centuries.


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 28, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> That's a pretty bold ascertation. Who were the founding fathers of speculative masonry, and are we sure that every single one of them were Christian? And do we have sufficient knowledge to know for sure that none of them had deconverted later in life?
> 
> Even so, even if all of them were Christian, it still doesn't mean that freemasonry as a philosophy is compatible with Christianity.



Why is it so important to you to "prove" that Christians must not be admitted as Freemasons or that they must not become Freemasons? What is the origin of your implacable hostility (no matter how dressed up it might be in pretty terminology)?


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## jjjjjggggg (Jul 28, 2014)

Wow, reading comprehension much? Go back and read again without your victim complex and see if anything I said was against Christians being Freemasons. Because if it isn't clear enough already, I DO NOT take issue with it. I thought I could come here and have an honest conversation about a question without someone getting butthurt, and it is no surprise to me you'd be the one to read more into a post than what is there. You sir have not acted on the level.


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## Rick Carver (Jul 28, 2014)

A conflict exists between people who confuse religion with spirituality. Religion and Church is mainly ritual and dogma. Much of the outward appearance of Freemasonry is displayed in its ritual and dogma. People are bound to find differences/similarities and conflicts.  The bottom line, IMHO, boils down to time and $$$$. There is a finite amount of both. Men who spend their allotted time and/or $$$$ on Masonic endeavors have less, or sometimes neither, to give to the Church. Freemasonry relies on the giving of man's time and $$$$. The Church relies on the giving of man's time and $$$$. It is only natural that a conflict would eventually occur when a resource is finite. This conflict is disguised and often presented in some other ways, but it always comes back to 'we want to control your time and your $$$$, because when we control them, we control YOU.'


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 28, 2014)

Rick Carver said:


> A conflict exists between people who confuse religion with spirituality. Religion and Church is mainly ritual and dogma.



I can just as easily way that, if religion and church have become "mainly ritual and dogma", that "religion" has ceased being a religion and that "church" has ceased being a church. Means to end or end in and of itself? Exercise for health or exercise just to exercise? When the means becomes the end, the means ceases to be what it was and becomes something else.



> Men who spend their allotted time and/or $$$$ on Masonic endeavors have less, or sometimes neither, to give to the Church. Freemasonry relies on the giving of man's time and $$$$. The Church relies on the giving of man's time and $$$$. It is only natural that a conflict would eventually occur when a resource is finite. This conflict is disguised and often presented in some other ways, but it always comes back to 'we want to control your time and your $$$$, because when we control them, we control YOU.'



If that's all it comes down to, then neither is worth a fig.


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 28, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> Wow, reading comprehension much? Go back and read again without your victim complex and see if anything I said was against Christians being Freemasons. Because if it isn't clear enough already, I DO NOT take issue with it. I thought I could come here and have an honest conversation about a question without someone getting butthurt, and it is no surprise to me you'd be the one to read more into a post than what is there. You sir have not acted on the level.




I see, so you accuse me of dishonesty. You must live in a miserable world in which nobody is ever able to misunderstand something and everyone does everything with malicious intent.


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## jjjjjggggg (Jul 28, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> I see, so you accuse me of dishonesty. You must live in a miserable world in which nobody is ever able to misunderstand something and everyone does everything with malicious intent.


 

That's the exact kind of snide remarks you make on a consistent basis, not only to me, but others on here as well. Especially when folks want to have an honest question about anything religion related. I see your Christianity and masonry as an excuse. From this point on I'm done with you.


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## crono782 (Jul 28, 2014)

Scale back on the tempers and accusations or this thread will be closed for discussion in short order. 


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## dfreybur (Jul 28, 2014)

JMorris said:


> Because I love history so much, do you know a reputable book on this tidbit of info?  I would like to read about the transition of dropping the requirement.



Start with James Anderson and his Constitutions of 1723 and 17384.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Anderson_(Freemason)

http://freemasoninformation.com/masonic-education/books/andersons-constitutions-of-1723/

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/libraryscience/25/

It's quite explicit that as of 1723 the landmark was no atheist and no specific religion.


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## Attila Weinberger (Jul 28, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> If there is a doctrinal conflict between Masonry and Christianity, then no Christian can be a Mason and no Mason can be a Christian, it is that simple. In addition, Christianity is founded upon fire AND water. It was tongues of flame that bestowed the Church upon the Apostles at Pentecost, and they baptized by water. Claiming that, to be a Freemason, one must be a Cainite, is imposing religious dogma upon Freemasonry and going along with all the lies told by its various clerical enemies over the centuries.


I dare to believe all of us agree that Masonry is NOT a religion... It's not healthy nor smart to heat up emotions and promote personal opinions among those who enjoy and accept a much wider angel based on strict and solemn oaths. By the way... did you took those?


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## BroBook (Jul 28, 2014)

What did/are you trying to say? I was  
a believer long before I became a mason, a mason a long but shorter time before I got baptized and about ten years after that before I started going to church , have been attending almost every Sunday and only recently becoming active again in the craft,so if there is a real conflict I must not understand either, just my non-humble opinion , for the record I am 55, I,P&R in 84 baptized at 33, recently healed PHA FOR LIFE!!! WWEA,SMIB!!!


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## BroBook (Jul 28, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> That's the exact kind of snide remarks you make on a consistent basis, not only to me, but others on here as well. Especially when folks want to have an honest question about anything religion related. I see your Christianity and masonry as an excuse. From this point on I'm done with you.


As an excuse for what , you do remember that you made it a point to  point out that you used to be believer in the fact that a Man got up from the  dead but don't believe that anymore or did I miss something and for record the term Christian as well as goat rider were originally derogatory terms, that being said we should all remember how good and pleasant it is to remember in our youth that the GAOTU will not over look those who just pretend to be ignorant 


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## JJones (Jul 29, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> Tolerance is not agreement; tolerance is agreeing to disagree.
> Tolerance is not acceptance; tolerance is agreeing to mutual peace.
> Tolerance is not acquiescence; tolerance is cooperating on points of mutual value.
> Tolerance is not dogmatic thinking; tolerance is Masonic thinking.



I really like this and it feels very relevant to some of the threads I've been seeing lately.  Thank you for sharing.


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 29, 2014)

Attila Weinberger said:


> I dare to believe all of us agree that Masonry is NOT a religion...



Actually, it's quite obvious that we don't all agree that. I agree that it's not a religion, but there are others here who insist that it is--and they're Masons.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Jul 30, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> Actually, it's quite obvious that we don't all agree that. I agree that it's not a religion, but there are others here who insist that it is--and they're Masons.


And that particular qualification makes them no more of an authority on the matter than any other Mason. We are all entitled to our own opinions, of course, but not to our own facts. I have yet to see the opinions on the matter, of even the most erudite Brethren (Pike, Mackey, Wilmhurst, et al), defended with something approaching incontrovertible facts. If your belief is that Freemasonry is a religion because it's similar to this or that religion in some regard, I can't prove otherwise. Beliefs are chosen for reasons not often rational. I can, however, observe that Freemasonry has none of the things that actually define a religion.


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## Brother JC (Jul 30, 2014)

"Is Freemasonry compatible with your theology/faith/belief system?" That is the question each candidate must ask themselves. Beyond that, debate degrades to argument and no one enjoys the benefits of harmony.
We have several threads going right now that are basically the same circular dead-end, and I for one would rather discuss blue vs red than read any more of this.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jul 30, 2014)

Personally I prefer blue. I miss the old days when people who preferred red were hunted down and burned at the stake.


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## goomba (Jul 30, 2014)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Personally I prefer blue. I miss the old days when people who preferred red were hunted down and burned at the stake.



Sir I find this offensive.  I am a red and darn nabbit I'm proud of it!  But what about the oranges?  

But seriously I would be considered an Evangelical Christian.  Not only do I find zero, nothing zip, within Masonry to conflict with my faith; I actually find that it enhances it!  Which is one thing I think it is suppose to do for each of us.  YMMV.


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## Attila Weinberger (Aug 19, 2014)

trysquare said:


> "Is Freemasonry compatible with your theology/faith/belief system?" That is the question each candidate must ask themselves. Beyond that, debate degrades to argument and no one enjoys the benefits of harmony.
> We have several threads going right now that are basically the same circular dead-end, and I for one would rather discuss blue vs red than read any more of this.



I second that !!!


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## coachn (Aug 19, 2014)

Is Christianity really compatible with Freemasonry? 

Of course it is.  Further more Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity.  At least, in the forms that I practice both.  Your mileage may vary.


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## JVan357 (Aug 27, 2014)

Yes yes yes my brother!!!


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## Isaih (Aug 31, 2014)

I don't think any official Christianity is compatible with true Christianity, these days.
At least the sacharine nonsense I've heard preached in the church.

So why not be a mason too?

To my understanding, Christianity is a path that Paul took, where he describes his battles to come out of the world of sin.

In order to achieve that I've learnt that I can't do it by my own strength of character, but must give up my will to god.

Which is easier said than done. And whilst I have failed at this point to achieve that personally, I wonder if  it could ever be achieved when you have other loyalties. Or play loose with the word of god.


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## admarcus1 (Sep 2, 2014)

Isaih said:


> I don't think any official Christianity is compatible with true Christianity, these days.
> At least the sacharine nonsense I've heard preached in the church.
> 
> So why not be a mason too?
> ...


I  impressed that after centuries of thinkers, writers, theologians, students, teachers,madmen and fools pondering, arguing, researching, and debating what it is to be a true Christian, you have definitively solved the puzzle. My Christian Bretheren are very fortunate indeed that you have found this forum. 

Now if only someone can do the same for Judaism, I'll be all set.


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## BryanMaloney (Sep 2, 2014)

admarcus1 said:


> I  impressed that after centuries of thinkers, writers, theologians, students, teachers,madmen and fools pondering, arguing, researching, and debating what it is to be a true Christian, you have definitively solved the puzzle. My Christian Bretheren are very fortunate indeed that you have found this forum.
> 
> Now if only someone can do the same for Judaism, I'll be all set.



The irony is delicious, to read you praising someone so highly when this SAME person also is totally convinced that the Pope and Freemasons are conspiring together to destroy democratic governments and rule the world. As far as he is concerned, Freemasonry is the enemy of humanity. Irony can be so lovely.


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## admarcus1 (Sep 2, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> The irony is delicious, to read you praising someone so highly when this SAME person also is totally convinced that the Pope and Freemasons are conspiring together to destroy democratic governments and rule the world. As far as he is concerned, Freemasonry is the enemy of humanity. Irony can be so lovely.



Please tell be you are kidding, Brother Bryan.  Please, please tell me you didn't think I was being serious, that I believe that after centuries of thinkers.........this one guy has found the answer.  Read my first sentence again.  The statement is ridiculous on its face.  In your defense, you cannot hear the voice in my head that is dripping with sarcasm, but even so, I thought it was pretty clear.


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## Isaih (Sep 2, 2014)

Bryan I'd like you to quote me suggesting that the pope and freemasons are conspiring together.
Or apologise for misrepresenting my point of view..

Admarcus thanks for the invitation.
Jews read Daniel chapter 9  http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-Chapter-9/
get the dates here
http://www.patmospapers.com/daniel/457.htm

then buy a calculator.

And look upon the serpent of your sins and be healed

Then come back here and follow my previous instructions..


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## admarcus1 (Sep 2, 2014)

Isaih said:


> Bryan I'd like you to quote me suggesting that the pope and freemasons are conspiring together.
> Or apologise for misrepresenting my point of view..
> 
> Admarcus thanks for the invitation.
> ...



I would never have imagined that the same guy who could sweep away all the errant Christian denomination and schools of thought but the one true one would so easily reveal the key to the errors of the Jewish people in 5 simple verses from the book of Daniel, sweeping away  2000 years of Rabbinic Judaism, and all its offshoots.

I guess I was asking for it.

It must truly be nice to be so sure, and so clear, so confident that you understand perfectly what countless numbers have struggled with for generations upon generations.  

Here is a thought, Isaih.  You know the truth, so you are clearly not here to learn anything new.  There would be nothing here for you to learn.  You seem like a serious person, so I am guessing you are not here for your own amusement (and what kind of person amuses himself with the ignorance of others, after all).  You must be here to teach then, to share what you have learned, that perfect truth.  Well, you have tried valiantly, but clearly those on this forum are unwilling to listen.  Whether it is due to an intellectual deficit or a darker force, it seems clear from the posts responding to you on numerous threads that you are wasting your time.  I suggest that your teaching would bear more fruit elsewhere.

P.S.  That first sentence was sarcasm.  Just in case anyone missed it and interpreted it as additional praise.


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## Isaih (Sep 2, 2014)

Admarcus I was amused, no need to explain your tone.
I will take your advice.


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## BryanMaloney (Sep 2, 2014)

admarcus1 said:


> Please tell be you are kidding, Brother Bryan.  Please, please tell me you didn't think I was being serious, that I believe that after centuries of thinkers.........this one guy has found the answer.  Read my first sentence again.  The statement is ridiculous on its face.  In your defense, you cannot hear the voice in my head that is dripping with sarcasm, but even so, I thought it was pretty clear.




I have autism. Sarcasm and I are only passing acquaintances, I'm afraid. So, I completely fell for it.


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## admarcus1 (Sep 3, 2014)

That would explain it. If I have further sarcastic comments, I will tag them with a winking smiley face.  And I am not being the least sarcastic when I say that. Tone is difficult to get across in a discussion forum under the best of circumstances.


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 18, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> The movement is by the antis not by us.  On our end that's all there is to it.  if you want more you'd need to go to the antis for that.  On the one hand it can be sadly entertaining to listen to the rantings of lunatics.  On the other hand increased exposure to illness increases risk of contagion even with mental illnesses.


It is entertaining to hear some of the lunacy that some antis think of as perfectly legitimate arguments. I attend a Free Methodist church and this church has a anti-Masoic bias. When I had decided to join the Craft I went to my pastor to inform him of this and ask if this was going to cause me a problem at church. He assured me that it would not and that has been the case. I am a new Mason having been raised on 04 Aug 14. I can honestly say that I have not been asked to say or do anything that I would be ashamed to say or do in front of my wife or pastor.


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## BryanMaloney (Jan 27, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> >I have trouble imagining more inclusiveness than that.
> 
> Perhaps not every candidate likes swearing or having sacred books.
> 
> What would Freemasonry look like in a country that had never had an organized religion?



Perhaps not every would-be candidate is a man. Do you see where that leads?


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## goomba (Jan 27, 2015)

BryanMaloney said:


> Perhaps not every would-be candidate is a man. Do you see where that leads?



And then Masonry isn't Masonry but it's something else.  Not necessarily something bad but something else than what it once was.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Jan 29, 2015)

BryanMaloney said:


> Perhaps not every would-be candidate is a man. Do you see where that leads?


To... _equality_?
Mind, I am not taking the "let's open mainstream Masonry to women" stance, but I see a rather important distinction between a candidate's beliefs re. Deity and whether or not said candidate is sporting certain anatomy. I will likely never sit in Lodge with two of the finest Masons I have ever known because of anatomy, but other than that distinction, there's nothing that makes them less of a Mason. By the same token, I don't really care what label is affixed to the nature of a candidate's belief, as long as he has that belief. Without it, he (or she) would indeed be that much less of a Mason.


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## BryanMaloney (Jan 29, 2015)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> To... _equality_?
> Mind, I am not taking the "let's open mainstream Masonry to women" stance, but I see a rather important distinction between a candidate's beliefs re. Deity and whether or not said candidate is sporting certain anatomy. I will likely never sit in Lodge with two of the finest Masons I have ever known because of anatomy, but other than that distinction, there's nothing that makes them less of a Mason. By the same token, I don't really care what label is affixed to the nature of a candidate's belief, as long as he has that belief. Without it, he (or she) would indeed be that much less of a Mason.



So, just play paper dolls with the Landmarks?


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Jan 29, 2015)

BryanMaloney said:


> So, just play paper dolls with the Landmarks?


Congratulations on being so pedantic that you completely missed the point.


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## coachn (Jan 30, 2015)

BryanMaloney said:


> So, just play paper dolls with the Landmarks?


I hope you realize that the "Landmarks" you refer to vary greatly within those few jurisdictions that actually have them and are non-existent in the rest.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jan 30, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> .....the form adapts to the time and the culture and is not the essence of Freemasonry.


The work of a Mason is to discover the essence buried beneath the form.  This is not only true of Masonry but of life as well.  It is a difficult journey that, in Masonry, is called the search for the lost word.  It is an appropriate allegory.  A word is a symbol for something.  The form of a word can be a sound, combination of letters, or some other symbol.  But the essence of a word is something other than the form.  Form is a like a vehicle which carries the essence.  Masonic Ritual, Lodges, Traditions, History, etc, are the forms, the vehicles, which carry the essence.  Any attempt to discuss the essence must be carried out using the some type of forms, some symbolism which is by its very nature is less than complete.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 2, 2015)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> Congratulations on being so pedantic that you completely missed the point.



Congratulations on deciding to resort to _ad hominem_ when you fail to actually make your point in a way that is understood. You are free to now hurl more personal insults as a substitute for actually speaking plainly and actually stating your allege "point".


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 2, 2015)

Okay, then, so it's the consensus of the "enlightened" that there actually are no standards in Freemasonry?


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## coachn (Feb 2, 2015)

BryanMaloney said:


> Okay, then, so it's the consensus of the "enlightened" that there actually are no standards in Freemasonry?


I don't know who might encompass or be included in this "enlightened" group that you allude to and I don't think that was the point of your posted response so I shall not linger upon it any further. 

That being said....

_The Standards of any Freemasonic Group determine Regularity for that Group and that Group alone._​
When such Standards are compatible with other Groups and each Group seek to obtain Recognition from the other, negotiations start toward that end.  

Those that get past the Recognition exercise may or may not move toward inter-visitation.


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## hanzosbm (May 18, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> The work of a Mason is to discover the essence buried beneath the form.  This is not only true of Masonry but of life as well.  It is a difficult journey that, in Masonry, is called the search for the lost word.  It is an appropriate allegory.  A word is a symbol for something.  The form of a word can be a sound, combination of letters, or some other symbol.  But the essence of a word is something other than the form.  Form is a like a vehicle which carries the essence.  Masonic Ritual, Lodges, Traditions, History, etc, are the forms, the vehicles, which carry the essence.  Any attempt to discuss the essence must be carried out using the some type of forms, some symbolism which is by its very nature is less than complete.



I agree completely.  Ask 10 Masons what the "true" meaning of a point within a circle is and you'll get 11 answers.  How can one say that the purpose of Freemasonry isn't compatible with Christianity when we all have different ideas about what the "true" purpose of Freemasonry is?  You get out of Masonry what you put into it.  If you don't want to do something you perceive as being unChristian, then don't.  I love when the anti's say things like "you're unknowing worshipping Satan!".  How does one unknowingly worship anything?  Worship is intent and adoration, you can't do it on accident.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (May 18, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> "Wisdom might be defined as Virtue plus Knowledge multiplied by Contemplation." -- Bro. Hal Riviere


Wow, that's like, the best explanation of how Virtue relates to Wisdom that I have ever read.  Thanks!


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## GKA (Aug 6, 2015)

The York Rite is Christian, It originated in Ireland, (popular speculation), and was established here in America by Thomas Smith Webb sometime in 1799
It expands upon the blue lodge basics and there is nothing that I have found which is contradictory to blue lodge, therefore I can conclude that Freemasonry and Christianity are compatible, unless the Christians want to hunt for heretics, ( just joking )


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## Glen Cook (Aug 7, 2015)

GKA said:


> The York Rite is Christian, It originated in Ireland, (popular speculation), and was established here in America by Thomas Smith Webb sometime in 1799
> It expands upon the blue lodge basics and there is nothing that I have found which is contradictory to blue lodge, therefore I can conclude that Freemasonry and Christianity are compatible, unless the Christians want to hunt for heretics, ( just joking )


I'm unsure of which part of the York Rite you speak. As to HRA only, the current thought is summed up at Wiki (though there are errors in other parts of the article):
 Fredericksburg Lodge in Virginia lists a conferral of the Royal Arch degree on December 22, 1753.[13][14] There is also a Royal Arch Chapter noted in 1769 in Massachusetts (St. Andrew's Royal Arch Chapter in Boston, then known as Royall Arch Lodge), where the first Knights Templar degree was also conferred.[15] Through a report compiled by the Committee on History and Research appointed by the Grand Chapter of Massachusetts in 1953 and 1954, it was found that St. Andrew's Royal Arch Chapter was the oldest constituted Chapter in the Western Hemisphere, having been officially constituted April 9, 1769, though the records implied that the Chapter had been working prior to that date, and perhaps as early as 1762. The report also states that it is unknown whether the Fredericksburg Lodge in Virginia conferred only the Royal Arch degree or the entire series of degrees.[16]"

I am unclear why HRA would be thought to be Christian.


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## coachn (Aug 7, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Wow, that's like, the best explanation of how Virtue relates to Wisdom that I have ever read.  Thanks!


Here's another view that I posted recently upon Facebook for your consideration:

...The best definition of Wisdom that I have come across? Brace yourself! 

Wisdom is what occurs when one's heart, head and spirit: ...
1) have been moved from Chaos to Order, 
2) are all connected, 
3) are all aligned and 
4) and are in full agreement.

But that's just something I got from my Travels. Others might not see the Wisdom in this. (and Yes, you may quote me on this!)​
;-)

Coach N


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## coachn (Aug 7, 2015)

GKA said:


> The York Rite is Christian,


Would it be more accurate to say that "some aspects of the York Rite Path are Supportive of Christians, but not necessarily Christianity as a whole"?


GKA said:


> It expands upon the blue lodge basics and there is nothing that I have found which is contradictory to blue lodge, ...


Bro.!  For your consideration:

http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-lost-masters-word-acid-test.html

Once you read my thoughts on this, I believe you might see that any illusion of providing the Master's Word is incompatible with the Blue Lodge Teachings.  Furthermore, doing so is the antithesis of what is being conveyed by the 3rd Degree Drama. Moreover, once examined carefully, it would be concluded that you have to be a Ruffian to buy into such a premise. 

Of course, I am open to discourse on this if interested.  



GKA said:


> ...therefore I can conclude that Freemasonry and Christianity are compatible, unless the Christians want to hunt for heretics, ( just joking )


Heretic Hunt anyone?  [snicker]


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Aug 7, 2015)

elsewhere coachn said:


> *I:  *How do the Orders of Architecture Reveal The Word’s development and ultimate Use?
> *R:*  They show the path to Mastery for those who know how to configure them as a map of Masonic Progression.


I have asked a lot of Masons about the orders of architecture and have never before received this answer.  It appears that much contemplation is needed on this concept.  Where would I begin?


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## coachn (Aug 7, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> I have asked a lot of Masons about the orders of architecture and have never before received this answer.  It appears that much contemplation is needed on this concept.  Where would I begin?


AWESOME!!!!!

Sure Bro.!  Here are steps that you can take to begin and even get you there.

Seek to Understand:
1) What each of the 5 columns actually represent symbolically.
2) Why the Greek columns are so important to Blue Lodge Work, and the Roman not so much.
3) Which column you enter as and why you have accepted this as the reality of a newbie.
4) Which column best represents a man who has ACTUALLY DONE the Blue Lodge Work, _(and if you know what I mean by the Blue Lodge Work you are way ahead of the parrots that don't.)_​
Only after you have done the above seek to make an effort to create a map using the columns to show Masonic Progression.


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## GKA (Aug 7, 2015)

I stand corrected, some parts are Christian, I interpret Christianity in a broader sense which is not specifically correct


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## hanzosbm (Aug 7, 2015)

coachn said:


> AWESOME!!!!!
> 
> Sure Bro.!  Here are steps that you can to begin and even get you there.
> 
> ...


I am not YR, so I'll tread lightly on the subject.  But I read a very in depth discussion on the different columns not long ago.  Based on what I've been reading lately, I think it was most likely Wilmshurst, but I'll need to go back to confirm that.


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## coachn (Aug 7, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> I am not YR, so I'll tread lightly on the subject.  But I read a very in depth discussion on the different columns not long ago.  Based on what I've been reading lately, I think it was most likely Wilmshurst, but I'll need to go back to confirm that.


What you quoted and commented upon is Blue Lodge only and not specific to the Degrees beyond the Blue Lodge, although understanding it would help your understanding of other degrees work.


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## dfreybur (Aug 7, 2015)

coachn said:


> Seek to Understand:
> 1) What each of the 5 columns actually represent symbolically.
> 2) Why the Greek columns are so important to Blue Lodge Work, and the Roman not so much.
> 3) Which column you enter as and why you have accepted this as the reality of a newbie.
> ...



Something like this then - Tuscan, member.  Doric, JW.  Ionic, SW.  Corinthian, WM.  Composite, PM.

Listed as such it becomes clear why the Greek ones are esteemed more in GL Freemasonry - They are the ones who must have votes at the GL level as well as representing our 3 ancient Grand Masters.

It renders the description of the Composite order hilarious to me when applied to PMs as well, being one myself!  More decorative, chortle.  Also it explains why I was puzzled the first time I encountered a lodge whose bylaws set chairs earlier in the progressive line to be elective.  It does not explain the wide variation in GL rules about PMs voting.

Alternately it could be the basic 5 elected officers.  That puts to the question - Which is TR and which is SE and thus gets called primitive?  Yet another chortle.

Thanks you for suggesting to me that the orders might be organized in that way.  This makes the 3, 5, 7 progression more interesting.  Growth in person progressing through the degrees.  Growth in service progressing through the line.  Growth in society by progressing through education and its application.


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## coachn (Aug 7, 2015)

dfreybur said:


> Something like this then - Tuscan, member.  Doric, JW.  Ionic, SW.  Corinthian, WM.  Composite, PM.
> 
> Listed as such it becomes clear why the Greek ones are esteemed more in GL Freemasonry - They are the ones who must have votes at the GL level as well as representing our 3 ancient Grand Masters.
> 
> ...


Yes, something like what you have shared. 

You are applying it toward the Lodge though. 

Try applying it toward Masonic Progression, not Freemasonic Progression and see if yet another Map unfolds.  You could start by asking yourself what Work Focus do each of the GMs represent?


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