# Perfected or already perfect?



## Bird_n_hand (Nov 28, 2017)

A little background before I start.  I'm a Buddhist and a Christian.  It's what I'm comfortable with so far lol I've study with no formal education a fair amount of psychology and philosophy and sought after a many religions seeking truth wherever i may find it;  because I'm odd and find it interesting. I also smoke alot of medicinal marijuana.  I follow the law of the land.  Where I reside it's legal so it leads to alot of deep thinking.
   I have a question and it's been bugging me as if late.  If freemasonry is about perfecting oneself than that means before your raised you must be imperfect. Then and only then you can work to become perfect.  So why would a criminal record bar a man from seeking guidance to become a better man? Is it not true that all man are born flawed in one sense or another or am I simply mistaken? From my understanding of myself.  I first have to recognize my own errors before I can turn it into a triumph. Wouldn't that be a truism for all my brothers. The only other way is to fool oneself into believing that no work need be dune in which case your already perfect and that would make the path of seeking perfection invalidated and there by invalidating freemasonry? Of course unless I'm mistaken which happens alot I might add. Just ask my significant other cause I'm always wrong XD


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## coachn (Nov 28, 2017)

Bird_n_hand said:


> ... I have a question and it's been bugging me as if late.


Only one?!?!!?


Bird_n_hand said:


> ...If freemasonry is about perfecting oneself than that means before your raised you must be imperfect. Then and only then you can work to become perfect.


Yes.  But how are the words "perfect" and "imperfect" defined?


Bird_n_hand said:


> ...  So why would a criminal record bar a man from seeking guidance to become a better man?


Because freemasonry claims to make "GOOD" men better; not "BAD" men better.  It is not a reparatory or restorative system.  It is a philosophically maturing based society, even though collectively it does not practice/support what it preaches.


Bird_n_hand said:


> ...Is it not true that all man are born flawed in one sense or another or am I simply mistaken?


Yes.  But our systems is not designed to _make men flawless_.  Our systems point to _"maturation"_, and this _does occur_ if you follow its yellow brick road and do the Work.


Bird_n_hand said:


> ...From my understanding of myself.  I first have to recognize my own errors before I can turn it into a triumph. Wouldn't that be a truism for all my brothers.


One could only hope.


Bird_n_hand said:


> ...The only other way is to fool oneself into believing that no work need be dune in which case your already perfect and that would make the path of seeking perfection invalidated and there by invalidating freemasonry?


And immature souls do sometimes take this view and approach.  However, the intent is to offer a maturing process, not require it.  And if you desire to mature, there is a path to take that accomplishes this end.


Bird_n_hand said:


> ...Of course unless I'm mistaken which happens alot I might add.


LOL!  Join the team!


Bird_n_hand said:


> ...Just ask my significant other cause I'm always wrong XD


You might gain some insights by reading this: https://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2015/12/perfect-in-sanity.html


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 28, 2017)

The way that I heard it put once....."Our goal is to make good men better, not bad men good".


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## Elexir (Nov 28, 2017)

The term "make Good men better" is something thats not used at all över here and Im glad for it.

The only thing freemasonry (or maybe masonry  ) or any other fraternety can do is give you the tools to become a diffrent man (and hopefully for the better).

As in regards to why criminals bar a person from joining its really for practical reasons to protect the lodge and the GL.


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## dfreybur (Nov 28, 2017)

Bird_n_hand said:


> A little background before I start.  I'm a Buddhist and a Christian ...  If freemasonry is about perfecting oneself than that means before your raised you must be imperfect. Then and only then you can work to become perfect.



It's a lesson you should learn in different ways in each of those religions.  Within each of us is a spark of the divine.  It is through our thoughts and acts that we build a realization of that fact.  Here the word realization is used in both ways.  It's an intellectual understanding that gets called realization.  it's an emotional break through that makes real.  Sure enough, one of the ways we make good men better is by helping each other make it real.



> So why would a criminal record bar a man from seeking guidance to become a better man?



This is one of many conundrums found in our practice.  On the one hand many jurisdictions allow felons to petition as long as it is revealed on the petition and discussed with the investigating committee.  On the other hand some members will drop a cube and some jurisdictions will reject any felon.  Yet get convicted of a felony when already a member and nearly every jurisdiction will expel you.  Anyone who has attended Annual Communication at Grand Lodge knows that every year there are reformed felons applying for reinstatement.  Depending on the crime the vote might by generous in favor or nearly unanimous against.  Felons who harmed people in non-financial ways, especially women or children, rarely see generous votes.

I suggest you view it as a small boat versus big boat issue.  I'm sure you could phase it from a Christian context as well once you read my suggestions.

Small boat - As individual Masons it is our task to do works which move us towards making it real that we feel our divine spark.  A member who is convicted of a felony will have turned away from that quest so it's time to cut him loose until or unless he reforms.  Maybe one day we'll be at GL voting on his restoration.  Either way it's up to him.

Big boat - As a lodge we need our assemblies to filled with good works.  As an organization our reputation suffers if we retain felons so expelling felons allows us to recruit the next generation.


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## Bird_n_hand (Nov 28, 2017)

Wow you guys are great and thank you for responding so quickly. It let's me know all of you really care about your beliefs no matter how esoteric they may seem to be at times.
I want to start by saying to mr. Dfreybur that I love how you call it the divine spark. Truly it has to be. Without that spark we would be nothing more then dirt. God is a great engineer and he wouldn't have wasted his time on something he didn't feel would have some great potential. I suppose the term spark is very interesting to me. A spark can only occur when two object meet. One positive and one negative. When they pass by eachother energy is discharged from one into the other at a rate of 10000 volts per inch, I digress

I just want to make it clear I'm not a mason nor have I ever petitioned for that honor. I was a very lost soul in my youth but through my many years living I have come across a great many Great men who have in one form or another gave me some light, they all have left a huge impression on me and gave me something to model after. To that I'm grateful for having met them.

Perfect: taken from Latin would be to have been made whole and complete. Being right
Imperfect: also taken from Latin would be flawed and not complete. Being crooked

Here's something I pose to you.
If freemasonry makes good men better and not bad men better. If it's the perview of the criminal justice system and religion to help make whole again.
What's the barometer that measures a man's worthiness. If I show you two people who have hurt someone. Say one man drink and drive and hit someone but got away with it after hitting someone.
And another man did the same exact thing except he striken with remorse turned himself over to the police. Now one man although he may have a criminal record in my eyes is still a good man for making it right.
The man who didn't turn himself in would be free to petition later in life.  But the man who did the right thing is now barred.
When I was younger I met a master mason and he just got out of jail for a dui. He was still active in his community. How I don't know.
I may be a bad person in the eyes of some and I've hurt a great many people in my life. This guilt I'm forced to live with daily. But like the second man I faced my demons. I wouldve gotten away Scott free. But I made the honest decision and turned myself in. Im not sorry i did that either it was the best decision I've ever made in my life. If man won't forgive I can live with that because my God will accept me non the less as I have been made whole again


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 28, 2017)

Elexir said:


> As in regards to why criminals bar a person from joining its really for practical reasons to protect the lodge and the GL.


True.


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 28, 2017)

Elexir said:


> The term "make Good men better" is something thats not used at all över here and Im glad for it.


To each his own. I like it myself.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Nov 28, 2017)

What does your ritual say about the perfect Ashler?  Mine says that it is "a stone that has been made ready by the workmen to be adjusted by the tools of the Fellowcraft".  So if a perfect Ashler still needs adjustment, not by a MM but by a Fellowcraft no less, then what is it about the stone makes it perfect?


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## Bird_n_hand (Nov 29, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> A significant entry to the Mysteries is concealed by that somewhat garbled conjunction of cubic "stone" and rose.


I suppose if God creates the lovely beauty of the rose, down to the heavenly fragrance, and He also created the stone. Him being perfect, would He not create something perfect as well. Just my 2 pennies.


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## coachn (Nov 29, 2017)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> What does your ritual say about the perfect Ashler?  Mine says that it is "a stone that has been made ready by the workmen to be adjusted by the tools of the Fellowcraft".  So if a perfect Ashler still needs adjustment, not by a MM but by a Fellowcraft no less, then what is it about the stone makes it perfect?


That's because any stone that may contain flaws that prevents it from being used will cause it to be rejected at any point while the goal of making the stone suitable for the Builder's use regardless of flaws therein contained is pursued continuously.


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## coachn (Nov 29, 2017)

Bird_n_hand said:


> I suppose if God creates the lovely beauty of the rose, down to the heavenly fragrance, and He also created the stone. Him being perfect, would He not create something perfect as well. Just my 2 pennies.


God's creations are flawless but immature when undeveloped.  We are God's creation, but we require maturing.


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 29, 2017)

coachn said:


> God's creations are flawless but immature when undeveloped. We are God's creation, but we require maturing.


Very good.


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## dfreybur (Nov 29, 2017)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> What does your ritual say about the perfect Ashler?  Mine says that it is "a stone that has been made ready by the workmen to be adjusted by the tools of the Fellowcraft".  So if a perfect Ashler still needs adjustment, not by a MM but by a Fellowcraft no less, then what is it about the stone makes it perfect?



Wisdom to contrive.  Strength to support.  Beauty to adorn.  Perfection comes in layers.

The ashlar shipped to the construction site is ready to be a block in a stable wall.  That might be enough.  Or it might be on the face of a wall and need to be polished.  Or it might be assigned to a shape not a block and need free form carving to complete.  Perfect does not imply complete.  There's always more even when you get something just right.


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 29, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> Perfect does not imply complete. There's always more even when you get something just right.


I like this too.


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 29, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> Freemasonry also talks about using the working tools in a moral sense.  If this skill is available to a brother then that can be used to test the uprightness of an applicant.



No what it means by use them in a moral sense is “remember to break ur time up so you don’t waste it all working” “if you are rough around the edges work to smooth those out” ect ect you can’t actually use a Gavel to know your rough edges off....




Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 29, 2017)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> What does your ritual say about the perfect Ashler?  Mine says that it is "a stone that has been made ready by the workmen to be adjusted by the tools of the Fellowcraft".  So if a perfect Ashler still needs adjustment, not by a MM but by a Fellowcraft no less, then what is it about the stone makes it perfect?



Well a MMs tool is the trowel and a FCs are the sq lvl plumb.  The EA smooths out the stone the FC stacks and builds then the MM comes in and inspects and applies mortar


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## coachn (Nov 29, 2017)

EA - Perfect the Ashlar
FC - Raise and Position the Ashlar
MM - Cement that puppy!


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## Bird_n_hand (Nov 29, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> Wisdom to contrive.  Strength to support.  Beauty to adorn.  Perfection comes in layers.
> 
> The ashlar shipped to the construction site is ready to be a block in a stable wall.  That might be enough.  Or it might be on the face of a wall and need to be polished.  Or it might be assigned to a shape not a block and need free form carving to complete.  Perfect does not imply complete.  There's always more even when you get something just right.


That's very deep, every piece if stone. Every tree, although perfect can't be used for the same purpose.


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## Bird_n_hand (Nov 29, 2017)

I got some off topic news, I was doing some anti terrorism class last night and noticed my manager teaching the class was wearing a MM ring. He seems like a very cool with a good sense of humor


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 29, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> No what it means by use them in a moral sense is “remember to break ur time up so you don’t waste it all working” “if you are rough around the edges work to smooth those out” ect ect you can’t actually use a Gavel to know your rough edges off....


Sounds good to me.


Ripcord22A said:


> Well a MMs tool is the trowel and a FCs are the sq lvl plumb. The EA smooths out the stone the FC stacks and builds then the MM comes in and inspects and applies mortar


Makes sense.


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