# Does Purgatory Exist?



## Blake Bowden (Dec 15, 2009)

The other day my oldest son asked me that very question. Being Baptist I automatically said "no", but after some research the Catholics have a good argument...

Purgatory

Thoughts?


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## rhitland (Dec 15, 2009)

I am not one that believes God would cast any of his children to eternal damnation.  I do think he can put you in purgatory but leaves you with the ability to work your way out.  I am curious if there is no purgatory in Baptist and what seems many other denominations then what is there?  I hope that question did not come off crude as it was not meant to be I am just a dummy when it comes to the denominations.


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## Bill Lins (Dec 15, 2009)

In the Baptist faith we believe that the only way to enter Heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as one's Saviour. It's either "up" or "down".


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## Nate Riley (Dec 15, 2009)

rhitland said:


> *I am curious if there is no purgatory in Baptist and what seems many other denominations then what is there?  *I hope that question did not come off crude as it was not meant to be I am just a dummy when it comes to the denominations.



Heaven or Hell


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## rhitland (Dec 15, 2009)

What is the difference between Hell/Down and purgatory? :blush:


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## Jay (Dec 15, 2009)

rhitland said:


> What is the difference between Hell/Down and purgatory? :blush:



One Your just Pro-timing the east and the other your stuck like chuck for ever with no rocker


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## Nate Riley (Dec 15, 2009)

rhitland said:


> What is the difference between Hell/Down and purgatory? :blush:



My simplistic answer is that you can't work or get prayed out of hell. There is much more to it than that.


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## jonesvilletexas (Dec 15, 2009)

Let us look at what the Bible says about Purgatory.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.

The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, sliver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.


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## drapetomaniac (Dec 15, 2009)

Not that I believe Purgatory is the answer to all these questions, but here's my primary problem with my fundamentalist upbringing and absolute jesus or straight or hell scenario.

Christians didn't reach the new world until 1492.  According to strict doctrine, from the year 34 AD or so until 1492, every person in this hemisphere died and went to hell because they didn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal lord and savior.  Of course the same before 34AD, but after that it's on Christian time specifically.  The irony is those who would supposedly be saved were first exposed to the worst Christian experience possible (genocide).

Of course, Europe, Asia and Africa have the same histories.  For however many hundreds of years after the resurrection, they all went to hell until transportation allowed missionaries, but more often conquerers and kings to expose them to Christianity.

This idea of 1500 years of people going to hell because missionaries didn't have transportation to the new world is a huge part of what makes my own personal Christianity extremely more liberal than most (although in my youth I called it mysticism and may still again).

And while this sounds cynical or bitter, its specifically because I believe in the grace of God taught through christianity that I don't buy into the hell, hell, hell dogmas.

Purgatory might be an answer to this 1500 years of Western Hemisphere hell burners.


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## Blake Bowden (Dec 15, 2009)

Good stuff.


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## rhitland (Dec 16, 2009)

> If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”



Very good stuff but I am still a little confused on where non-believers or people who produce poor work go?  If ones work is of straw and is burnt up and no reward given what happens to the person or their soul?


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## owls84 (Dec 16, 2009)

*Disclaimer: This is not meant to attack ones personal belief but to help me better understand my own. *

If Jesus dies for ALL of man's sins and man is going to sin sometime in their life as the bible says. What if a man is lead astray and happens to sin before coming to his senses and is unable to repent dies. According to scripture, as stated in Ezekiel 18 he dies a sinner. I understand God to be a forgiving God but what does this mean, that a man can live a life of sin then repent, then a man that lives a Godly life sins as man will do he is cast to hell and the man that lived a life of sin can go to heaven. That is a tough pill to swallow. I know there is no grading system and if one repents and it is not heartfelt the question of forgivness means nothing but if God is forgiving does he not forgive the Godly man for his sin knowing it was not in his heart to sin but happens because as human we sin. 



> Taken from Ezekial 18 (New International Version)
> *21* "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. *22* None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. *23* Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
> 
> *24* "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
> ...



I just would like to know if God is forgiving then why does this happen. Is there additional scripture to add to this?


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## Sirius (Dec 16, 2009)

owls84 said:


> If Jesus dies for ALL of man's sins and man is going to sin sometime in their life as the bible says. What if a man is lead astray and happens to sin before coming to his senses and is unable to repent dies.
> 
> I just would like to know if God is forgiving then why does this happen



Jesus taught that it was not the strict adherence to the law, but rather the spirit of the law that was important. 

In a paper titled Jesus' Legal Theory - A Rabbinic Reading , Chaim Saiman has some very interesting thoughts. He says:


> In the Gospels, one of the most contested issues between Jesus and the Pharisees is the proper meaning and observance of Shabbat, or the Sabbath. Throughout the synoptic texts, the Pharisees are presented as maintaining a rigid and legalistic view of Shabbat, while Jesus argues that Shabbat must mean more than the mechanical adherence to technical legal rules. The Gospels contain a number of healing narratives, wherein Jesus, in apparent contravention of then-binding law or custom, heals people on Shabbat, much to the astonishment of the populace and the chagrin of the Pharisaic establishment. Similarly, the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke recount Jesus’ revolutionary teachings regarding the laws of Sabbath. In each pericope, Jesus is portrayed as a teacher who scales back the Shabbat restrictions, while the Pharisees favor a more rigid interpretation of the Torah’s texts.



It simply does not make sense that a God of Love would sentence people to eternal damnation due to the fact that they had never heard the Christian message or converted but sinned at some point. This is an obvious conflict in scripture. And it goes to show that the letter of the law is not always the most important thing, as Jesus demonstrated when he healed on the Sabbath. It's not the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. God wouldn't call healing on the Sabbath a sin. 

Jesus was teaching us to approach scripture logically not literally.


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## SSG_Morrison (Dec 16, 2009)

rhitland said:


> What is the difference between Hell/Down and purgatory? :blush:



To me Purgatory is a holding place.  It's not in between because I'm not sure that I believe in hell.  Purgatory would be the place you might find yourself, if say you were in coma.  Your not dead, but your really not alive either.  I grew up in the Methodist Church, but over time I have researched the history behind the Christian belief, and I have my own belief of things.


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## RedTemplar (Dec 16, 2009)

Is Purgatory hot as Hell? Is Hell hot in the literal or figurative sense?


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## jonesvilletexas (Dec 16, 2009)

Is hell literally a place of fire and brimstone?"

Answer: By raining down fire and brimstone upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, God not only demonstrated how He felt about overt sin, but He also launched an enduring metaphor. After the events of Genesis 19:24, the mere mention of fire, brimstone, Sodom or Gomorrah instantly transports a reader into the context of God’s judgment. Such an emotionally potent symbol, however, has trouble escaping its own gravity. This fiery image can impede, rather than advance, its purpose. A symbol should show a similarity between two dissimilar entities. Fire and brimstone describes some of what hell is like—but not all of what hell is.

The word the Bible uses to describe a burning hell—Gehenna—comes from a burning place, the valley of Gehenna adjacent to Jerusalem on the south. Gehenna is an English transliteration of the Greek form of an Aramaic word, which is derived from the Hebrew phrase “the Valley of (the son of) Hinnom.” In one of their greatest apostasies, the Jews (especially under kings Ahaz and Manasseh) passed their children through the fires in sacrifice to the god Molech in that very valley (2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chronicles 33:6; Jeremiah 32:35). Eventually, the Jews considered that location to be ritually unclean (2 Kings 23:10), and they defiled it all the more by casting the bodies of criminals into its smoldering heaps. In Jesus’ time this was a place of constant fire, but more so, it was a refuse heap, the last stop for all items judged by men to be worthless. When Jesus spoke of Gehenna hell, He was speaking of the city dump of all eternity. Yes, fire was part of it, but the purposeful casting away—the separation and loss—was all of it.

In Mark 9:43 Jesus used another powerful image to illustrate the seriousness of hell.“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.” For most readers, this images does escape its own gravity—in spite of the goriness! Few believe that Jesus wants us literally to cut off our own hand. He would rather that we do whatever is necessary to avoid going to hell, and that is the purpose of such language—to polarize, to set up an either/or dynamic, to compare. Since the first part of the passage uses imagery, the second part does also, and therefore should not be understood as an encyclopedic description of hell.

In addition to fire, the New Testament describes hell as a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13). The very variety of hell’s descriptors argues against applying a literal interpretation of any particular one. For instance, hell’s literal fire could emit no light, since hell would be literally dark. Its fire could not consume its literal fuel (persons!) since their torment is non-ending. Additionally, the gradation of punishments within hell also confounds literalness. Does hell’s fire burn Hitler more fiercely than an honest pagan? Does he fall more rapidly in the abyss than another? Is it darker for Hitler? Does he wail and gnash louder or more continually than the other? The variety and symbolic nature of descriptors do not lessen hell, however—just the opposite in fact. Their combined effect describes a hell that is worse than death, darker than darkness, and deeper than any abyss. Hell is a place with more wailing and gnashing of teeth than any single descriptor could ever portray. Its symbolic descriptors bring us to a place beyond the limits of our language—to a place far worse than we could ever imagine.


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## rhitland (Dec 16, 2009)

Well that pretty much clears that up.  If you are cast to this place is there hope of ever coming out?  And if so how would one do that?


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## drapetomaniac (Dec 16, 2009)

And 1500 years of people went to hell by the grace of God because conquistadors wielding swords  with missionaries in tow didn't get to them in time..

Then again rereading the scriptures cited above, "if your hand causes you to sin", if you've never been exposed to Jewish law I guess you don't know to cut it off.


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## jonesvilletexas (Dec 16, 2009)

Brother I hope this helps. Just keep in mind this is what I believe and I am not trying to convert you or any one.
This must be answered in this way, Is hell real? If so Is hell eternal?

It is interesting that a much higher percentage of people believe in the existence of heaven than believe in the existence of hell. According to the Bible, though, hell is just as real as heaven. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). The just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, the punishment for sin, death, must also be infinite and eternal. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin.

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36).


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## jonesvilletexas (Dec 16, 2009)

What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?

All people are accountable to God whether or not they have “heard about Him.” The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). If it were not for God's grace, we would be given over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. He does this for those who continually reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).

In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle—everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

The problem is “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own hearts, and instead decide to worship a “god” of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.

Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure they do hear. We are called to spread the gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). We know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature, and that must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only by accepting God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God.

If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?


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## rhitland (Dec 16, 2009)

Rock on Brother Jones if we could all be that stead fast in our faith.  You came with some great answers on the spot as well.  I admire you for your passion and zeal.  I am not one to believe that hell is eternal but the great thing about it is we can meet on the level and better discover how to treat one another in accordance to their believes.


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## Nate Riley (Dec 16, 2009)

rhitland said:


> *Rock on Brother Jones if we could all be that stead fast in our faith.  You came with some great answers on the spot as well.  I admire you for your passion and zeal. *...*the great thing about it is we can meet on the level and better discover how to treat one another in accordance to their believes*.



Right on.

For a masonic forum, we sure talk about religion a lot.  Must be because we can't do it in the lodge.


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## jonesvilletexas (Dec 16, 2009)

Thank you brother. I have been in the Gospel for over 38 years and a Mason for 26 years.
I just told my wife the other day one thing I love about Masonry is no matter what God you believe in, we can meet upon the level. And I do believe that with all my heart and soul.


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## RedTemplar (Dec 17, 2009)

Thank you, Brother Jones, for your insight on what is for most a difficult subject to fully grasp. Any place, hot, dark or otherwise, without Jesus is a horrible state to spend eternity.  I don't know for sure if Hell is literally hot, but I know that it is bad enough that my Savior died to keep me out of it.


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## jonesvilletexas (Dec 17, 2009)

That he did my brother. I just will have to have faith and believe His word.


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## rhitland (Dec 18, 2009)

So mote it be.


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## drapetomaniac (Dec 18, 2009)

jonesvilletexas said:


> If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?



I wholeheartedly agree with all the logic.  One variation I have is that God revealing himself in nature, in my opinion, is what allows people not exposed to not go to hell because Christian missionaries didn't have transportation.

I don't think Hell has to be the primary motivator for evangelism either.  We do see a difference in various forms of evangelism too, where one group might be all about conversion another achieves conversion through service.

By a rough calculation looking at population estimates, that's about 2 billion people in the Americas alone who didn't ever hear the name Jesus.between his birth and Columbus.  

It's incongruous to common doctrine to say they had a way out (even though scripture says God revealed himself which is why many are more ecumenical) - but I also think its incongruous to the religion as a whole too say billions of people went too hell because of the lack of transportation.  The idea of Christian Salvation as the absolute only option is at odds with the idea of a merciful God who loves us in this problem.


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## jonesvilletexas (Dec 18, 2009)

There is no problem with man having questions about the doctrine of God, but mans logic, when it comes to God should not come into play.

We cannot fully understand what God can and will do as far as His judgment to man on the subject.

I would never clam to know the mind of God.

This brings us to faith, and this is what we should concern ourselves with.


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## Beehive Mason (Jan 11, 2010)

I believe that there is a doctinal confusion. Being a "Craddle Catholic" myself I can answer thusly:
Purgatory does exist. But it is not a punishment.

What was decided by the clergy is the status and validity of "limbo" a medieval concept based entirely on nothing. And no. Children do not belong there regardless of how or why any particular child comes to be in the afterlife - they do not deserve to pay for the sins of others.

So what then is purgatory? To put it simply... a bit like a car wash. It is a place where the souls of the departed go to be cleansed by the flame of the G:.A:.O:.T:.U:.  ardent love. To be in purgatory is to shake off the rubbish that we tend to leave behind. 
In other words... It is , in fact, where we get the chance to hue our rough ashlars and square our work perfect.

But, my Brethren, this is only a small "T" tradition of the Catholic Church and as always, everyone is free to accept whatever belief makes him feel closer to the Creator.


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## RedTemplar (Jan 11, 2010)

Are the ones who have never heard of Christ doomed to spend eternity in Hell? I cannot answer that question, but consider this statement.  "For whom much is given, much is required". Are the mentally handicapped held to the same standard as one with average intelligence?


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## ncm_pkt (Jan 11, 2010)

I have to admit...it's great to see that masons can discuss religion outside of the lodge in a way different than most people would.  The respect and consideratio we have for each other is great. Brotherly love


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## Seeker (Nov 17, 2010)

There are prayers and offerings given for the benefit of the dead in 2 Maccabees 12:43-46.  "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins."  This is a verse of scripture used by the Catholic Church in support of their view on the existence of purgatory.  2 Maccabees is one of 7 books that are found in the Catholic Bible but typically not in Protestant Bibles.


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## Blake Bowden (Nov 18, 2010)

Seeker said:


> There are prayers and offerings given for the benefit of the dead in 2 Maccabees 12:43-46.  "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins."  This is a verse of scripture used by the Catholic Church in support of their view on the existence of purgatory.  2 Maccabees is one of 7 books that are found in the Catholic Bible but typically not in Protestant Bibles.


 
Thanks!


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## jwhoff (Nov 20, 2010)

Purgatory, reincarnation, Houston rush hour traffic.  Keep your eyes on the prize!  The journey thereby is not so important.

I thank the G.A.O.T. for leaving us all a path to reach our destiny.  May all good brothers obtain the light.


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## coachn (Nov 21, 2010)

rhitland said:


> What is the difference between Hell/Down and purgatory? :blush:


Your chosen experience. 


rhitland said:


> Very good stuff but I am still a little confused on where non-believers or people who produce poor work go? If ones work is of straw and is burnt up and no reward given what happens to the person or their soul?


Great Questions and with the following offering:

*Ephesians 2:8, 9; Romans 3:20, 28; Galatians 2:16 and James 2:24; Matthew 19:16-21*


*Saved by grace *
(Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
(Rom. 3:20, 28) - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
(Galatians 2:16) - "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

*Saved by works *
(James 2:24) - "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
(Matthew 19:16-17) - "And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Can it get any more confusing? It reads like we're between "a rock and a hard place." 


Sirius said:


> Jesus taught that it was not the strict adherence to the law, but rather the spirit of the law that was important.
> ... Jesus was teaching us to approach scripture logically not literally.


I like! Only thing here I would change would be to word it as follows: *Jesus was teaching us to approach scripture spiritually (as in figuratively) not literally.*


rhitland said:


> Well that pretty much clears that up. If you are cast to this place is there hope of ever coming out? And if so how would one do that?


Re: Hope? *YES!*
To get out: _*Simply wake up!*_

IMO

Bro. Coach N


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## rhitland (Nov 21, 2010)

coachn said:


> Re: Hope? *YES!*
> To get out: _*Simply wake up!*_
> 
> IMO
> ...


 
So mote it be!  Simply wake up!


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## jweium (Dec 2, 2010)

If you get the chance, read Dante's Divine Comedy which explains Purgatory in the Catholic sense, it is a fun read if you like to read about gory stuff and good stuff as well


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## jwhoff (Jan 2, 2012)

Yo Brother jweium ... here's hoping that you've made it past The Canterbury Tales by now.  Those first two years of literature are what separates the chaff from the mettle in my book. I did so hate early English literature.  Beowulf be damned!


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## BEDickey (Jan 3, 2012)

*my problem...*

My only problem with the heaven/hell logic is the "child paradox" of original sin. If an adult kills a baby/child and accepts Jesus as his lord and savior he goes to heaven, but the child, being to young to accept or possibly even understand the word of God, goes to hell. No matter how people try to spin it, it just does not sit right with me, and is way out of line for a merciful loving God. Purgatory would be a good way to explain it, as all goodly people's with out knowledge of God end up there.


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## Brent Heilman (Jan 3, 2012)

*Re: my problem...*



BEDickey said:


> My only problem with the heaven/hell logic is the "child paradox" of original sin. If an adult kills a baby/child and accepts Jesus as his lord and savior he goes to heaven, but the child, being to young to accept or possibly even understand the word of God, goes to hell. No matter how people try to spin it, it just does not sit right with me, and is way out of line for a merciful loving God. Purgatory would be a good way to explain it, as all goodly people's with out knowledge of God end up there.



As another thought to this some Christian religions teach that since a child knows nothing of right or wrong or good and evil they cannot be a sinner. To be a sinner you would have to first know the difference in each of these things. As such any child that dies by what ever means is basically saved since they have no sin. As older kids and adults go though they must repent and be baptized for the remission of sin to be saved and go to Heaven since they do know they difference between these things. Of course it all boils down to which ever faith you believe. I for one do not go for the whole original sin thing but that's just me.


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## K.S. (Jan 3, 2012)

I can see your point, brother Jonesville Texas, but, you can't really "hate" on Catholics for their belief's simply because they are not your own.
     Our country was founded on freedoms and liberties, to be free and practice the religion of ones choice. If I misread your entry, I apologize, but I believe everyone's religious beliefs are their own and shouldn't be infracted upon, religious arguments never play out well.


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## BryanMaloney (Jan 20, 2012)

I'm Eastern Orthodox, we accept Maccabees and reject purgatory. It's late, so I'll post more on this, later. Suffice to say that a lot of our explanations hinge on "God is bigger than our tiny minds."


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## Blake Bowden (Jan 21, 2012)

Great discussion. I enjoy the different viewpoints.


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## jwhoff (Jan 21, 2012)

Ah for a more close-minded crowd of any persuasion.  

Now there's were you can make serious money selling holy books. popular interpretations, and weapons ... in the same strip center.


 :sneaky2:


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## RedTemplar (Jan 21, 2012)

I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. So, it does not really matter to me if Hell is hot, Purgatory exists, or if its a band of virgins or Virginians that lead me safely home. If it happens to be Virginians, the Statler Brothers' great great great grandchildren will do fine.  I wish that everybody would accept Christ, but, if they don't, I still respect their view and hope they still respect mine. I pray that we all get along peacefully.


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## jwhoff (Jan 21, 2012)

So Mote it Be!  

There's something to be said about longevity there Brother Red; something indeed!

:wink:


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## BryanMaloney (Jan 22, 2012)

The Orthodox do not accept the doctrine of purgatory (and appendant doctrunes, such as transferrable merit of the saints and indulgences). The current Patriarch of Constantinople stated that purgatory is “among inter-correlated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church that are not acceptable within Orthodox doctrine”. However, we do accept that prayers for the dead are beneficial to them. Regarding this issue, Kallistos Ware wrote “Of course we do not understand exactly how such prayer benefits the departed. Yet equally, when we intercede for people still alive, we cannot explain how this intercessions assists them. We know from our personal experience that prayer for others is effective, and so we continue to practice it.” In part, we support this matter by reminding ourselves that our God is the “God of the living, not of the dead” and that simultaneously He is the God of Abraham. Thus, if, as Christ has said, God is not the “God of the dead” and He is still the God of Abraham, then in some way we do not understand, the faithful, such as Abraham are still “alive in God”, or as we put it regarding fellow Christians “alive in Christ”. Thus, while they have “fallen asleep”, they are not under full death.

However, the most complete answer to purgatory came at the false council of Ferrara-Florence, when the faithful Orthodox hierarchs responded to this Latin doctrine. In that response, the gist was that the words quoted from the book of Maccabees only show that some sins may be forgiven after death; but by what means, nothing was known for certain. In any case, what has forgiveness of sins to do with punishment in purgatory? Only one of these can happen: either punishment or forgiveness, not both at once. That response went on for some length, refuting point by point the Latin doctrine.

It may be true that the words of some Orthodox teachers over the centuries could be interpreted to agree with purgatory, but we do not accept the infallibility of any single mortal teacher.

Regarding the fate of those whom the Evangelicals like to call “unreached”--we leave that up to God and do not have the pridefulness to presume He will condemn or save them. An Orthodox teacher (Theophan the Recluse) once wrote “Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins.”


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## Star Mztyk (May 27, 2012)

This thread is about swallowing camels and straining at knats......because ...I think that Masonry requires a monolithic belief.....and the VSL of your choice(usually). 

 My take on this is that there is a Judgment.....and this happens after each life (to include reincarnationist). This judgment in my personal belief is Self-induced....and then there is a service here or there IN Spirit to rectify the right/wrong/experience  to your Souls Intent. 

.....Finally I hope the GAOTU has no earthly secular preferance....and weird other whatever Belief/As it  is/TakeitOrLeaveit systems of Truth in Any Galaxy that separates and cleaves us as stones to be cast in some Cosmic rubbish heap.

If purgatory is about judgment...then judge not less you be judged.


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## Star Mztyk (May 27, 2012)

...sorry ....monothiestic


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## Pscyclepath (Jun 26, 2012)

While checking one of the references above, I was reminded in an adjoining section:  ""For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.  

For scarcely a righteous man will one die; yet peradventure for a good man, some would even dare to die.  But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.  Much more, then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."  (Romans 5:6-9)

This scripture argues against the idea that some are predestined for salvation while others are predestined for damnation...  but that salvation is a gracious gift from God, available to all.

I'm not a Catholic, (and I probably wouldn't be a very good one if I were, having some doubts about some of the theology the Church has added onto the Gospels over the centuries), but a major argument -- for me at least -- is where Christ, suffering on the cross, told the repentant thief, "... today shalt thou be with me in paradise."  (Luke 23:43).  That doesn't leave much time to be hanging around in Purgatory.


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## Michael Hatley (Jun 30, 2012)

Bit of a coincidence, I've made Purgatory an area of study.  I recommend this book:

Amazon.com: The Birth of Purgatory (9780226470832): Jacques Le Goff, Arthur Goldhammer: Books

It sits on my bedside table at the moment, along with the Monitor.  

It is a scholarly look at the history and origin of Purgatory.  I think it would be very edifying to anyone who thinks of themselves as a seeker.

To be direct about it, I believe that most all of religion is allegory.  If people choose to take it literally, so be it.  But the problem I have with that is not the same as the atheists, who sneer down their noses at lack of scientific method or whatever.

My issue is that there are wonderful lessons to be gleaned from all religions.  From the Bhagavad Gita to the words of the Dalai Lama, there is wisdom to be found in so many places.  Things that ring true and can help better our lives.  It is when we try to force ourselves to accept one system wholesale, outright, and literally that we cut ourselves off from more wisdom than we gain.  

That is just my opinion though.  At the end of the day whatever way makes a man better, and by better I mean more benevolent towards his fellow man and more at peace with himself.


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## Bird_n_hand (Nov 28, 2017)

Blake Bowden said:


> The other day my oldest son asked me that very question. Being Baptist I automatically said "no", but after some research the Catholics have a good argument...
> 
> Purgatory
> 
> Thoughts?


To God the concept of time does not exist, he operates outside of space and time. Almost as if I were existence is in his mind. He dwells on us. And so we exist. We exist for his pleasure alone. That being said how can we begin to conceptualize how great this world we live in is. Can we put a ruler to it so to speak. Purgatory is a place to wait for the final judgement. But waiting plays by the rules of time. Must we wait an hour. A year. A decade or several millennia? As one of your brothers put it. We all have a spark of the divine in us. The very breath we breath is proof of that. When the body perishes the soul lives on in eternity. Yet what does eternity really mean? Is it based on the concept that a linear timeline goes on into forever or is it something outside our common understanding of time? Maybe just maybe our soul is divine and eternal. And maybe our mortal selves are living in purgatory now. We are doomed to repeat this karmic cycle till god is done playing with his shiny toys idk. Maybe the thought of reincarnation is real and the thought of an individual soul that we believe we have is just a copy of our fore father's. 
I know the point I'm trying to make seems like their is no point. But their is. Somethings are just to grand for us to understand so the real question is. Why worry about what we cannot change. And If we cannot change the divine maybe we should focus on changing what we can. Ourselves. 
Much love and respect


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## Bird_n_hand (Nov 28, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> >Purgatory is a place to wait for the final judgement. ...We all have a spark of the divine in us.
> 
> So does the Divine make a final judgement of the divine spark?   Is that like cutting off a finger?
> 
> ...


I feel like the only immortal part of us is the soul. So when the body passes the soul ceases to live in its mortal prison and no longer bound by time, as for us living in purgatory right now. Something to ask God, maybe he will let you know then you cam share your findings. It's something I've considered as well and proof is finite. It's all speculation but if purgatory is a place to wait for judgement then that's exactly what we are doing now. Waiting to meet our maker and finding pleasant distractions in the mean time


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## Bird_n_hand (Nov 29, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> On the other hand, perhaps humans are purely decorative


As a Christian who has read a number of bibles. Angels sing in heaven praises to the most high and it pleases him. I don't know what I can do that would please him. Offer him less then holy gift. Idk but I like the notion of me being a decoration hahaha that sounds simple enough even by my standards


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## LK600 (Nov 29, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> >I like the notion of me being a decoration
> 
> Is the human race is the only species with nothing to contribute to the planetary ecosystem?


Far from it actually.  Our purpose was made clear from the foundations...

Genesis 1:28(KJV)

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Genesis 2:15 (NIV)
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.


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## Bird_n_hand (Nov 29, 2017)

LK600 said:


> Far from it actually.  Our purpose was made clear from the foundations...
> 
> Genesis 1:28(KJV)
> 
> ...


You make good points. And something I've read over many times you've highlighted so thank you. In gen 1:28 He did make that pretty clear
I'm some parts of genesis I've never took to literally. For instance I always though that the tree of life was my family tree. But if my purpose is to be fruitful and to subdue the earth, how can I do that when I'm forced to work to support myself and family. Is my calling then to be a farmer


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## coachn (Nov 29, 2017)

re: Does Purgatory Exist?

Yep.  It's earthly counterpart is called the "DMV".


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## Bird_n_hand (Nov 29, 2017)

coachn said:


> re: Does Purgatory Exist?
> 
> Yep.  It's earthly counterpart is called the "DMV".


Department of motor vehicles?


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## Brother JC (Nov 29, 2017)

Yep


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## Bird_n_hand (Nov 29, 2017)

coachn said:


> re: Does Purgatory Exist?
> 
> Yep.  It's earthly counterpart is called the "DMV".


 I finally got that joke XD I'm so dense lol the long wait at the DMV lol


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## LK600 (Nov 30, 2017)

Bird_n_hand said:


> You make good points. And something I've read over many times you've highlighted so thank you. In gen 1:28 He did make that pretty clear
> I'm some parts of genesis I've never took to literally. For instance I always though that the tree of life was my family tree. But if my purpose is to be fruitful and to subdue the earth, how can I do that when I'm forced to work to support myself and family. Is my calling then to be a farmer


We are charged with being stewards of the earth.  To subdue in this way is meant to maintain and utilize (not one or the other).  As far as farming, that is a question only you can answer but I doubt it.  For most people I believe it more means take ownership in what we do... vote, make a noise.. do your part in every way you can to "maintain and utilize".  I was raised by my grandfather who taught me that I was responsible for everything and everyone within my sight.  Think how different things would be if everyone felt like that.  



JamestheJust said:


> >and replenish the earth
> 
> The human race has not done well at that, but now seems to be trying harder.
> 
> ...



I'd agree the human race has neglected it's duties in MANY areas.  No, on the second... but taking care of one planet before moving on to another might be advisable.  And finally, what man accepts as reality doesn't have much bearing on what reality is.


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## jermy Bell (Dec 4, 2017)

Purgatory is a place the soul is sent for a unforgivable sin until it can be judged for the sin it committed.  Or at least that is how it was taught to us.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 5, 2017)

jermy Bell said:


> Purgatory is a place the soul is sent for a unforgivable sin until it can be judged for the sin it committed.


I read somewhere that the soul is sent to Purgatory to be cleansed by fire of a serious, but not mortal, sin(s).


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## Ripcord22A (Dec 5, 2017)

I’ve always been taught that purgatory is for those that have sinned to much for heaven but not enough for hell.  A place as James said above to help you be saved. And also a place where people with unfinished business go


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 5, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> I’ve always been taught that purgatory is for those that have sinned to much for heaven but not enough for hell. A place as James said above to help you be saved. And also a place where people with unfinished business go


Pretty much the way that I heard it.


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## LK600 (Dec 6, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> Purgatory seems to me to be an artificial solution to the saved-lost theology.   So few humans can be considered perfect that almost all will not be suitable for heaven.



It's also a false Dichotomy, at least as far as Christianity is concerned (can't speak for others).


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## Athena (Dec 9, 2017)

I don't really think it matters. If you live your life of God's will that's all that matters. If there is purgatory and you live your life under these circumstances then you may bypass it.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 9, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> I worked with a woman brought up in and still living with a strict fringe religion. She told me that she left theology to men. Observing her for some years it was obvious that she believed what seemed good to her and ignored the endless theological arguments of her menfolk.


That's the best that any of us can do.


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