# Great Lodge of England.



## antonio.guedes (Aug 18, 2013)

Everyone knows that the Great Lodgeof Englanf is fully connected to the British Crown. Including, there is always a duke as the MWM. So, it is valid to think they are not independent from the british state, since the Queen is the Chief of the State. So, based on that, when the freemasonry all over the world reach for their recognition, in certain way, we are looking for submision to british government. Based on that, why is so important to get their approval, even with all the history involved?

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## Brother JC (Aug 18, 2013)

First, there is no such entity as the "Great Lodge of England," at least not in recognized Freemasonry. Grand Lodges seek recognition based on the United Grand Lodge of England because of the history, not because of any subservience to the Crown. Every recognized Lodge in existence can trace back to England, Scotland, or Ireland, including African Lodge 1 (later 459).
While she is a Patron of the Craft, HRM Elizabeth II has no say in it, regardless of what anyone might speculate.


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## widows son (Aug 19, 2013)

"First, there is no such entity as the "Great Lodge of England," at least not in recognized Freemasonry. Grand Lodges seek recognition based on the United Grand Lodge of England because of the history, not because of any subservience to the Crown. Every recognized Lodge in existence can trace back to England, Scotland, or Ireland, including African Lodge 1 (later 459).
While she is a Patron of the Craft, HRM Elizabeth II has no say in it, regardless of what anyone might speculate."

• Also, I'm quite certain that The Duke of Kent The Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of England, is the only member of The Royal Family that is active in Freemasonry.


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## Nycola Flamel (Aug 19, 2013)

widows son said:


> "First, there is no such entity as the "Great Lodge of England," at least not in recognized Freemasonry. Grand Lodges seek recognition based on the United Grand Lodge of England because of the history, not because of any subservience to the Crown. Every recognized Lodge in existence can trace back to England, Scotland, or Ireland, including African Lodge 1 (later 459).
> While she is a Patron of the Craft, HRM Elizabeth II has no say in it, regardless of what anyone might speculate."
> 
> â€¢ Also, I'm quite certain that The Duke of Kent The Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of England, is the only member of The Royal Family that is active in Freemasonry.



Do you have a proof ?  


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## BryanMaloney (Aug 19, 2013)

"Who controls the British crown?
WE DO!
Who keeps the metric system down?
WE DO!"


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## widows son (Aug 19, 2013)

"Do you have a proof ?  "

• Do you have any on the contrary?


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## Nycola Flamel (Aug 19, 2013)

widows son said:


> "Do you have a proof ?  "
> 
> â€¢ Do you have any on the contrary?



No I don't and there is still no proof then  My approach as a "seeker of truth" is also based on the art of Zetetic. Btw, I'm french and still not fluent in english unfortunatly. Regards, O.: 


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## widows son (Aug 19, 2013)

"No I don't and there is still no proof then  My approach as a "seeker of truth" is also based on the art of Zetetic. Btw, I'm french and still not fluent in english unfortunatly. Regards, O.: "

• No problem, I understand you perfectly. But understand that as Freemasons we are not under any control by any monarch. Each Grand Lodge is sovereign.


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## Nycola Flamel (Aug 20, 2013)

I understand you perfectly. I think as a freemason, for build an argumentation and seek the truth, the reasoning has to be solid and logical. The art of doubt, the Zetetic art is still a precious virtue I think  


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## BryanMaloney (Aug 20, 2013)

Proof of the negative is logically impossible. While someone could show that the actual movers of Freemasonry aren't members of the British royal family, (GM of UGLE is a purely ceremonial position), then the conspiracist could say "But you didn't disprove secret control." or "You didn't disprove that the royal actually runs things while pretending to be a figurehead." It can go on infinitely, since the structure of proof makes it inherently impossible to prove a negative.


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## mrplod (Jun 9, 2014)

Not quite so, the Duke of Kent's biological Brother, HRH Prince Michael of Kent is a Provincial Grand Master, Middlesex county if I remember correctly.



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## Mike Martin (Jun 10, 2014)

There are presently Three Royals on the Rolls of the Grand Lodge of England:

The Duke of Edinburgh, the Duke of Kent and Prince Michael of Kent.

There have been some strange stories about the Duke of Edinburgh over the years but we were all very pleased when he celebrated the 60th anniversary of his initiation klast year. More info: http://www.freemasonrytoday.com/ugle-sgc/ugle/prince-philip-duke-of-edinburgh-60-years-freemason


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## Mike Martin (Jun 10, 2014)

Ohh I missed some!

1) As to the original poster's comment there is no organisational link between ANY of the three Grand Lodges operating within the United Kingdom and the Royal Family.

ALSO 
2) Neither the UGLE nor the GLoS have a person who is a "Patron of the Craft".  Thye UGLE's charities have a Grand Patron but that is our Grand Master the Duke of Kent. I am sorry to report that HM the Queen has no stronger connection to UGLE Freemasons than she has to any other Loyal (non-Forces) citizens.

We have only had one Grand Patron of Freemasonry, back in 1830 for a short period of time King William IV had that title which may have made his wife a Grand Patroness.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 23, 2014)

Interesting stuff! Learning all that I can about the history of the Craft.


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## Isaih (Aug 31, 2014)

The Order of the Garter seems to me to be a forerunner of freemasonry, created after the destruction of the Templars.
(please correct me if I'm wrong)

Every king since Edward III has taken it and hence was initiated in the same "religion" (apologies I cant think of a more polite term) as freemasonry.
Except King James 1 of bible fame(, who also wrote a good book called Demonology.)

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/25929/25929-pdf.pdf

So I think its entirely possible the royals  are freemasons, by another name.


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## Brother JC (Aug 31, 2014)

It appears most of the rulers of Great Britain were already members prior to their coronation. QEII was, and Charles already is. There's a gap in your timeline, but I suppose you could say the Order was founded after the fall of the Templars. However, I question your continued claim that Masonry is a religion, or that members of the Order follow that same "religion;" the official religion of that empire has changed since the founding of the Order.


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## Mike Martin (Sep 1, 2014)

Isaih said:


> The Order of the Garter seems to me to be a forerunner of freemasonry, created after the destruction of the Templars.
> (please correct me if I'm wrong)


Once again faulty logic. 

The Order of the Garter: http://www.royal.gov.uk/monarchUK/honours/Orderofthegarter/orderofthegarter.aspx


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## Glen Cook (Sep 1, 2014)

Isaih said:


> The Order of the Garter seems to me to be a forerunner of freemasonry, created after the destruction of the Templars.
> (please correct me if I'm wrong)
> 
> Every king since Edward III has taken it and hence was initiated in the same "religion" (apologies I cant think of a more polite term) as freemasonry.
> ...


Well, since you invited correction <G>, an order of chivalry is not a fraternal order.


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## Isaih (Sep 1, 2014)

"Glen. Its my understanding that the Templars practiced witchcraft.
And that in the above link I posted King James 1 , is debating on the lawfulness of witchcraft.
For good reason. And refused the Order of the Garter.

That the Order of the garter's motto is due to an association with the Templars.
And hence witchcraft.

That the knights of St John practice the same gnosticism as the Templars.
And that the freemasons are based on this same knowledge of conjuring of spirits.



As a genuine protestant I have come under attack by the powers that be in recent years in physical ways.
But have also had strange things happen to me that seem to be of a spiritual nature.
House became haunted so I had to buy a tent and sleep in the paddock .suffered total confusion in court over very simple arguments., which I easily resolved outside of court. Was attacked by an owl on 3 seperate occasions in a town which  noone had ever been attacked by an owl. To name a few.

I don't know who was responsible, I don't assume freemasons were. Oddly enough.
But I certainly believe that witchcraft is practiced today. I don't have much choice but to believe it.

So when I say the same religion I am politely avoiding calling it the same Craft.
But since you argue sematics, I will simply call it what it is. ( And hope I don't get attacked by another owl for my trouble)


Mike, as I'm sure you are aware ,  quite often there are several false exoteric explanations offered to hide the truth, if men would like to keep the truth secret.
If there was no secret to hide then the official Order of the Garter website might be reliable and trustworthy.
But if there was a secret to hide then its unlikely to be reliable.
So what does that site really tell us?

"
I'm inclined to agree. It looks as though, while many Emperors and kings have the Garter, it is bestowed via the UK. Specifically from the Templar's Crown Temple Church, the Queen being the representative Grand Patroness with the responsibility of knighting.
Members:
The Templars and the Kings ran the empire for the pope. After the suppression of the Templars the Order of the Garter was founded to directly run kingdoms of the empire.[1] And they were instrumental in later founding of Freemasonry, according to numerous researchers.[1] 75.121.255.9 (talk) 10:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)"

This quoted in argument on Wikipedia . There is a counter argument. Its debateable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Order_of_the_Garter

My personal belief is- the Order of the Garter used to be the Craft. There was a need for it then. There isn't now, as you have Knights of St John, or just freemasonry.
And the Queen is a Dame of St John anyhow.

Point being, I don't think freemasons run the world as a fraternity.
If you look beyond what they tell you. It points towards the kings of this earth.
Kings aren't fans of brotherhoods with peasants. They tend to be snobs.


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## Levelhead (Sep 1, 2014)

Isaih said:


> Was attacked by an owl on 3 separate occasions in a town which  noone had ever been attacked by an owl.  ( And hope I don't get attacked by another owl for my trouble



Wow. So your saying you think some cast an owl uponith you? 

Im sorry but thats ..... Well i don't know if i should laugh or feel bad.


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## Isaih (Sep 1, 2014)

I've exposed, or attempted to expose, in court, a coup d'état that took place in Western Australia a few years ago.
Which the media has remained silent on.
I have had amongst other things a concerted gaslight attack aswell. So don't bother ridiculing me, its water off a duck's back.


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## Levelhead (Sep 1, 2014)

Explain the gas light attack? Please!


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## Isaih (Sep 1, 2014)

Magistrate and his buddies trying to convince me I was crazy for suggesting treason. Imprisoned, psychiatrists etc.
In order to avoid addressing the evidence one way or the other on public record.
And as the evidence was parliamentary legislation throwing out the queen, it was hard to refute.
So better to convince me I'm crazy.


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## Brother JC (Sep 1, 2014)

The Templars were "accused" of witchcraft by someone who needed them out if the way.
There is more than one Order of St. John; one is Roman and a reconstituted version of the Hospitlars, one is British and not yet two centuries old.
I'm still not sure who you think is behind "global domination;" Elizabeth, the Pope, or someone who uses raptors to do their bidding. It seems you've let Freemasons off the hook for now.


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## Levelhead (Sep 1, 2014)

I wish i remembered to cast the spell of. "Mowith the lawn" last week at the lodge.


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## Isaih (Sep 1, 2014)

Trysquare what would I know?
My interest lies in the Roman Catholic organisations in Australia. They've got all sort of secret societies, Irish mainly.
And the overt orders.
And then you have the communists, the Fabians.

You read their inside literature, you see a theme.
That is each of these groups tend to believe they run the world.

They can't all be right.

Are the masons any different?

I think none of them are right. You can't just join a group like that. You have to create it.
If I wanted to control everything and everyone, I'd be a power junkie. Why would I share that power with any Tom ,Dick, or Harry? Its inconsistent with my charcter.

I might share some of my knowledge to give authenticity to my lie, to control very smart men,though.

The point here , in this topic,is that the masons aren't under the control of any soverign,
I believe they are.
And that they hide that control. For a variety of reasons.
How could Americans work for a British Monarch without committing treason?
How could protestants work for a a papal order(Jesuits/Knights of Malta) in the British Commonwealth without committing treason?

I'd argue that the Knights of St John are not a new order. They were outlawed by Henry viii, so one might assume went underground.
Considering they claim the Middle Temple, including Temple Church as their Soverign state and the Queen appoints them to administer the law. They've done very well for themselves in a century or so from scratch.

I also saw on a Knights of StJohn website that these Knights of St John and the papal Knights of Malta are the only 2 recognised Hospitaller Orders going back to the crusades.
Which you'll have to take my word for, it was a long time ago I read it.
But that is not  consistent with an order created in the 19th century.


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## Brother JC (Sep 1, 2014)

You're myopic in your hatred. Let me repeat that the order of St. John in Britain is not the same as the Catholic one (which claims to be descended from the original). And how, exactly, are Americans working for the British sovereign? She has nothing to do with Freemasonry, especially in the States.


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## Isaih (Sep 1, 2014)

Hatred is a strong word Trysquare. I know lots of masons who I genuinely like.
Men of character.
I tend to think most men want to lead decent lives, and a boring world it would be if we all had the same view of what that entails.
I don't confuse people with systems.

Again, the queen having nothing to do with freemasonry in the American states is your opinion.
I'm sure it would be in the her interests to distance herself from it, because of the taint of treason it would put on American freemasonry.
You can maintain your opinion, yet agree that what I'm saying is also possible surely?

I'm yet to meet an American who has the vaguest understanding of the British Constitution that
Americans were under, prior to their revolution.
If they took the time to explore their freedom under it, and what changed in their law after it, and which organisations were responsible for fomenting that revolution.
They might come to the same conclusions I have.


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## Brother JC (Sep 1, 2014)

I meant your hatred for the RCC, which you admitted previously.


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## Isaih (Sep 1, 2014)

Oh Ok, yes that is hatred. No question. I despise it and their priests with a vengeance. Liars and manipulators all.
Tolerance by definition includes tolerance of evil, does it not?
One would have to redefine the meaning of tolerance to make tolerance of catholic priests moral, to my mind.

Besides, being a protestant and tolerating the priests, would take half the fun out of it.


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## Morris (Sep 1, 2014)




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## Mike Martin (Sep 2, 2014)

Isaih,

I will not engage with you any further.

As your postings have continued your true colours have shown and you are just a common or garden variety conspiracy theorist who has come onto a Masonic discussion forum with no intent to learn anything about Freemasonry but rather to try and get an audience for your fantasy idea of the world.

From me "no more"!


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## BryanMaloney (Sep 2, 2014)

Python.
Black Knight.


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## Glen Cook (Sep 2, 2014)

Isaih said:


> Magistrate and his buddies trying to convince me I was crazy for suggesting treason. Imprisoned, psychiatrists etc.
> .....


Bingo


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## jwhoff (Jan 15, 2015)

Levelhead, you could just feel bad about laughing so hard.

I know I could.


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