# Recommending Comasonry



## JJones

So I've noticed a trend elsewhere on the internet (mainly on Reddit) and I wanted to ask opinions.

So what happens it typically a woman would ask something about Freemasonry and, almost without fail, someone will suggest she join a co-masonic lodge (allowing both men and women) if she wants to learn more.

I just read something along these lines today and it always bugs me but I'm beginning to notice it more and more often. I'm pretty straightforward in my opinion about it: it's not Freemasonry and suggesting anyone join a clandestine lodge goes against my obligations...but I've been wondering what everyone else thinks about this?


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## Ripcord22A

How does it go against your Obligation?  Mine only talks about what where I can/cant be, what i can/can't talk about in regards to women.  How is it different from a Freemason in Georgia telling a black man that he should probably seek out a PHA lodge?

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## GKA

My obligation is the same as Ripcord22a, I only agreed to not sit at the making of a woman a mason, personally, I like the idea of co-masonic lodges, at least as an option for women to be involved, it is a shame that our GL should feel so threatened by co-masonry or clandestine lodges for that matter.


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## Ripcord22A

Well clandestine lodges alot of the time are just money grabs and hurt the image of out society

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## GKA

I sooo want to reply, but it is best that I do not


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## JJones

Ripcord22A said:


> How does it go against your Obligation?  Mine only talks about what where I can/cant be, what i can/can't talk about in regards to women.  How is it different from a Freemason in Georgia telling a black man that he should probably seek out a PHA lodge?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app



I feel like I'm permitting someone to become a clandestine Mason if I'm suggesting it to them as an alternative. By not suggesting it, it is within my power to prevent it from happening. Yes, they may learn about it elsewhere but that is outside my circle of influence.

I believe that, by suggesting something, you are condoning it.


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## Glen Cook

I've never recommended anyone join a co-masonic group.  I have recommended women join feminine Masonry. See, the statement issued by UGLE – 10th March 1999:


There exist in England and Wales at least two Grand Lodges solely for women. Except that these bodies admit women, they are, so far as can be ascertained, otherwise regular in their practice. There is also one which admits both men and women to membership. They are not recognised by this Grand Lodge and intervisitation may not take place. There are, however, discussions from time to time with the women’s Grand Lodges on matters of mutual concern. Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men(even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). Further information about these bodies may be obtained by writing to the Grand Secretary.


The Board is also aware that there exist other bodies not directly imitative of pure antient Masonry, but which by implication introduce Freemasonry, such as the Order of the Eastern Star. Membership of such bodies, attendance at their meetings, or participation in their ceremonies is incompatible with membership of this Grand Lodge.


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## Brother_Steve

Glen Cook said:


> I've never recommended anyone join a co-masonic group.  I have recommended women join feminine Masonry. See, the statement issued by UGLE – 10th March 1999:
> 
> 
> There exist in England and Wales at least two Grand Lodges solely for women. Except that these bodies admit women, they are, so far as can be ascertained, otherwise regular in their practice. There is also one which admits both men and women to membership. They are not recognised by this Grand Lodge and intervisitation may not take place. There are, however, discussions from time to time with the women’s Grand Lodges on matters of mutual concern. Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men(even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). Further information about these bodies may be obtained by writing to the Grand Secretary.
> 
> 
> The Board is also aware that there exist other bodies not directly imitative of pure antient Masonry, but which by implication introduce Freemasonry, such as the Order of the Eastern Star. Membership of such bodies, attendance at their meetings, or participation in their ceremonies is incompatible with membership of this Grand Lodge.


this.


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## Brother_Steve

GKA said:


> I sooo want to reply, but it is best that I do not


Everyone has a right to an opinion.

My feelings towards comasonry is that it could undermine the family unit if the husband or wife are not in the lodge together. Especially if the marriage is on tough times.

To address it another way: I'm sure my wife would not be too happy if I was leaving her alone at home with our son while I was going to lodge to socialize with other women.


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## coachn

JJones said:


> I feel like I'm permitting someone...


I cannot and do not permit the actions of other adults outside my authority.  In these matters, I have no authority. 


JJones said:


> ...to become a clandestine Mason if I'm suggesting it to them as an alternative.


Alternative Freemasonic bodies are available to those who wish to join them; this is a fact.  When they are publicly known, they are not clandestine.  Even though these organizations are not recognized by my organization, they are not bogus, they are regular in their practices and they are viable options for those who cannot join my organization and who want the lights, rights and benefits of what Freemasonry can offer to them outside the one to which I belong.

Yes, there are bogus organizations too, but these are not the focus of this thread.


JJones said:


> By not suggesting it, it is within my power to prevent it from happening.


By recommending select alternative organizations with caution, I properly inform the other parties and empower them to make better informed choices and decisions so that they don't join a bogus organization that will harm them. 

They will soon become brothers or sisters in these organizations.  That is within my power to assist, especially if alternatively not assisting them may harm them.  If it is in my power to prevent harm, I should exercise that power fully.  They cannot join my body.  They are seeking alternatives.  I should direct them to the best ones possible for their situation.  

BTW - This is not about me.  It is about them and what I can do to assure they are best directed away from harm and toward the light that they seek.


JJones said:


> Yes, they may learn about it elsewhere but that is outside my circle of influence.


I have influence the moment they come to me for guidance.  I will give it to them fully and without reservation, especially when I know I can prevent them from going down a path of harm.


JJones said:


> I believe that, by suggesting something, you are condoning it.


I condone any organization that practices Freemasonic principles and tenets, benefits all involved and that does not harm others by doing so.  How could I not?


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## Elexir

I agree with cochn in most of what he says (except regular becuse they are irregular and there is nothing wrong with that since irregular and clandestine are two diffrent things).

We dont (as far as I know) have any all female lodges in Sweden so if asked I would direct them to co-masonry. I dont see a problem with it since their choices will not affect me. Co-masonry will exist without us.


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## Warrior1256

Elexir said:


> I dont see a problem with it since their choices will not affect me. Co-masonry will exist without us.


This makes sense. Logically it should not be a problem for me to recommend co-Masonry to a woman but emotionally it would make me uncomfortable to do so. I guess that I am a basket case, lol.


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## Elexir

Warrior1256 said:


> This makes sense. Logically it should not be a problem for me to recommend co-Masonry to a woman but emotionally it would make me uncomfortable to do so. I guess that I am a basket case, lol.



I guess everyone is diffrent. I myself actully thought about joining LDH (le droit humain, international co-masonry) before I joined my current lodge so that might be what I can understand it.


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## coachn

Elexir said:


> I agree with cochn in most of what he says...





Elexir said:


> ...(except regular becuse they are irregular ...


They are irregular only to us due to the girlie thing.  However, they are Regular in their practices as all Regularity is determined by the Regulating body. (As in, we are not Regular to a female craft lodge due to us accepting only males as they are not Regular to us because they accept only females.  However, each organization is Regular to itself.) 

BTW - The biggest mistake that most male-craft members make is leaving off the "to us" when talking about Regularity.  I can say other organizations are "irregular or not regular" *to us. *However, I cannot rightfully say that they are "irregular or not regular" since their organization is not our organization, we do not dictate their regularity (and they do not dictate ours) and, most importantly, we do not seek recognition between the organizations.  At least, not without looking ignorant.


Elexir said:


> ...and there is nothing wrong with that since irregular and clandestine are two diffrent things)...


Exactly!


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## Glen Cook

I also have separate reasons for opposing co-Masonry, based on experience. We have seen expelled Freemasons of recognized lodges join these groups and there appear to be a disproportionate number of men with characterological issues seek membership there.

Note, that I have been an officer in a co-ed fraternal.


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## coachn

Glen Cook said:


> I also have separate reasons for opposing co-Masonry, based on experience. We have seen expelled Freemasons of recognized lodges join these groups and there appear to be a disproportionate number of men with characterological issues seek membership there.
> 
> Note, that I have been an officer in a co-ed fraternal.


I have noticed these very same "characterological issues" continually being expressed ad nausea in co-mason populated forums.  Because of my experience of reading their posts and dealing super cautiously with the unbelievably dense thicket of sensitive landmines that go off when replying to them, I have never recommended co-masonry to anyone, even someone with "characterological issues". 

However, I have found that female-craft members and those attracted to it appear to be less inflicted with these "characterological issues".   

Male-craft members, and those attracted to it, appear to be less inflicted too.  However, every once in while, there are some members who express "characterological issues" that make me wonder how they obtained the capacity to ask for a petition, much less know how to sign the bloody thing.


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## Thomas Stright

GKA said:


> I like the idea of co-masonic lodges....



Do you agree they also are prepared in the same manner for the degrees? Or are we to make special accommodations?


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## GKA

Thomas Stright said:


> Do you agree they also are prepared in the same manner for the degrees? Or are we to make special accommodations?



Symbolicaly, yes....ritual varies so much between jurisdictions as it is, that the actual practice should be of little concern


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## LK600

I personally would see no issue with an all female lodge(s), and those lodges being recognized as regular.  I would not be for any form of co-masonry now or in the future.  Further, I would not recommend to anyone to join a lodge (with one exception) that is irregular/clandestine.


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## Robert Marshall

Glen Cook said:


> I've never recommended anyone join a co-masonic group.  I have recommended women join feminine Masonry. See, the statement issued by UGLE – 10th March 1999:
> 
> 
> There exist in England and Wales at least two Grand Lodges solely for women. Except that these bodies admit women, they are, so far as can be ascertained, otherwise regular in their practice. There is also one which admits both men and women to membership. They are not recognised by this Grand Lodge and intervisitation may not take place. There are, however, discussions from time to time with the women’s Grand Lodges on matters of mutual concern. Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men(even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). Further information about these bodies may be obtained by writing to the Grand Secretary.
> 
> 
> The Board is also aware that there exist other bodies not directly imitative of pure antient Masonry, but which by implication introduce Freemasonry, such as the Order of the Eastern Star. Membership of such bodies, attendance at their meetings, or participation in their ceremonies is incompatible with membership of this Grand Lodge.


Wait. UGLE considers Easter Star to be impermissible? I had no idea. Am I reading this wrong? It says that UGLE members are NOT allowed to be involved with OES...?

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## Glen Cook

Robert Marshall said:


> Wait. UGLE considers Easter Star to be impermissible? I had no idea. Am I reading this wrong? It says that UGLE members are NOT allowed to be involved with OES...?
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720 using My Freemasonry mobile app


Yup


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## Glen Cook

Thomas Stright said:


> Do you agree they also are prepared in the same manner for the degrees? Or are we to make special accommodations?


One assumes you are speaking of female co-masons. It is my understanding they wear a modest gown.


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## GKA

Robert Marshall said:


> Wait. UGLE considers Easter Star to be impermissible? I had no idea. Am I reading this wrong? It says that UGLE members are NOT allowed to be involved with OES...?
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720 using My Freemasonry mobile app



If you are under the jurisiction of UGLE, it's an issue, but if not, why worry about it?


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## Warrior1256

Glen Cook said:


> there appear to be a disproportionate number of men with characterological issues seek membership there.





coachn said:


> I have noticed these very same "characterological issues" continually being expressed ad nausea in co-mason populated forums.


Not quite sure what is being referred to. Examples?


LK600 said:


> Further, I would not recommend to anyone to join a lodge (with one exception) that is irregular/clandestine.


Agreed.


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## Robert Marshall

GKA said:


> If you are under the jurisiction of UGLE, it's an issue, but if not, why worry about it?


I'm not "worried." It's just an interesting fact about which I was unaware. I'm sorry if my asking for clarification offends you. I was just curious and didn't expect to upset anyone by asking. 

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## GKA

Robert Marshall said:


> I'm not "worried." It's just an interesting fact about which I was unaware. I'm sorry if my asking for clarification offends you. I was just curious and didn't expect to upset anyone by asking.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720 using My Freemasonry mobile app



I was not offended brother, I just see a lot of energy put into discussions about what other GL's are doing,  and sometimes the differences can be confusing


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## coachn

Warrior1256 said:


> Not quite sure what is being referred to. Examples?


There are quite a few.  The one that comes to mind quite readily is that the males seem to appear to have a passion to play "White Knight" to the feminist cause.  Another is a an almost obsessive fixation upon balancing male-female energy in the lodge experience. 

It's been a while since I have deliberately interacted with any of them.  I simply found it a waste of my time.


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## Glen Cook

Warrior1256 said:


> Not quite sure what is being referred to. Examples?
> 
> Agreed.


Two examples:

A member expelled from my mother GL for actually screaming in the building, bullying, and other acts. He was taken in by a co-masonic group. 

On occasion I've had the responsibility to speak to he media  for my mother GL I described the requirements to be a Mason in my jurisdiction. I did not include women. A male co-Mason was much upset that I did not include co-masonry within my definition. Rather than just noting the requirements of his obedience, he began a public diatribe against me.   Now, I must say that his WM later sent me correspondence apologizing.


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## Robert Marshall

GKA said:


> I was not offended brother, I just see a lot of energy put into discussions about what other GL's are doing,  and sometimes the differences can be confusing


Well as someone who has visited lodges in 50 states and 6 countries, I find it helpful to know the standards of other jurisdictions, especially considering the part of our obligation that concerns visiting other jurisdictions and knowing their customs. 

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## Glen Cook

GKA said:


> I was not offended brother, I just see a lot of energy put into discussions about what other GL's are doing,  and sometimes the differences can be confusing


Or enlightening.


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## MasterBulldawg

So I've noticed a trend elsewhere on the internet (mainly on Reddit) and I wanted to ask opinions.<br /><br />So what happens it typically a woman would ask something about Freemasonry and, almost without fail, someone will suggest she join a co-masonic lodge (allowing both men and women) if she wants to learn more.<br /><br />I just read something along these lines today and it always bugs me but I'm beginning to notice it more and more often. I'm pretty straightforward in my opinion about it: it's not Freemasonry and suggesting anyone join a clandestine lodge goes against my obligations...but I've been wondering what everyone else thinks about this?

I agree I did not perceive it to be masonry either. If a woman wanting to have a part of in Freemasonry I would recommend the Eastern Star.

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## Elexir

MasterBulldawg said:


> So I've noticed a trend elsewhere on the internet (mainly on Reddit) and I wanted to ask opinions.<br /><br />So what happens it typically a woman would ask something about Freemasonry and, almost without fail, someone will suggest she join a co-masonic lodge (allowing both men and women) if she wants to learn more.<br /><br />I just read something along these lines today and it always bugs me but I'm beginning to notice it more and more often. I'm pretty straightforward in my opinion about it: it's not Freemasonry and suggesting anyone join a clandestine lodge goes against my obligations...but I've been wondering what everyone else thinks about this?
> 
> I agree I did not perceive it to be masonry either. If a woman wanting to have a part of in Freemasonry I would recommend the Eastern Star.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app




And where the Eastern star dont exist?


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## Glen Cook

MasterBulldawg said:


> So I've noticed a trend elsewhere on the internet (mainly on Reddit) and I wanted to ask opinions.<br /><br />So what happens it typically a woman would ask something about Freemasonry and, almost without fail, someone will suggest she join a co-masonic lodge (allowing both men and women) if she wants to learn more.<br /><br />I just read something along these lines today and it always bugs me but I'm beginning to notice it more and more often. I'm pretty straightforward in my opinion about it: it's not Freemasonry and suggesting anyone join a clandestine lodge goes against my obligations...but I've been wondering what everyone else thinks about this?
> 
> I agree I did not perceive it to be masonry either. If a woman wanting to have a part of in Freemasonry I would recommend the Eastern Star.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


But, as noted, it doesn't violate my ob to suggest she join a feminine lodge. Indeed, it is specifically allowed as a UGLE Mason (did you read the Board report I quoted?).  Others have indicated it is not forbidden by their ob to recommend a coed lodge.  Unless they are in UT, it's not my place to say if it does.

edit: and if OES is considered part of Freemasonry, why doesn't it violate the coed concern?


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## JJones

This thread has been a good read, sometimes I find myself wondering if my views on Freemasonry are too conservative.


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## Glen Cook

JJones said:


> This thread has been a good read, sometimes I find myself wondering if my views on Freemasonry are too conservative.


Only when they disagree with mine


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## MasterBulldawg

Glen Cook said:


> But, as noted, it doesn't violate my ob to suggest she join a feminine lodge. Indeed, it is specifically allowed as a UGLE Mason (did you read the Board report I quoted?).  Others have indicated it is not forbidden by their ob to recommend a coed lodge.  Unless they are in UT, it's not my place to say if it does.
> 
> edit: and if OES is considered part of Freemasonry, why doesn't it violate the coed concern?


Let me put it like this: I would recommend what my Grand Lodge recognized for women.  If my Grand Lodge did not have anything for women then I would recommend another service organization. I would not recommend any thing that calms to be part of  Freemasony with my Grand Lodge's approval.

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## Glen Cook

Freemasonry is not restricted to men


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## MarkR

JamestheJust said:


> I have often wondered whether:
> 
> - Masonry is so important that it is restricted to men
> - Masonry is so unimportant that it does not matter that it is restricted to men
> 
> Thoughts?


Those aren't the only possible explanations.  In fact, it's a "forced choice" designed to make the recipient defensive and put them into a box.

When I was still a professor, I had a female student ask me why women weren't permitted to join my lodge.  I asked her whether she and her female friends acted differently when they were together than they do when men are around.  She said "oh, yeah!"  I said "so do we, and there are just times when guys need to hang around with guys, and women need to hang around with women.  Having women in the lodge would change the experience."  Whether that experience would be better or worse is not the point.  It would be different.


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## Roy_

He all. It's been a while since the subject came up, right? Even on Reddit few people dare to bring up the question nowadays. I'm sure I'm going to be the close of this thread, since I'm one of those... co's... and since nobody is going to want to interact with me, that'll be the end of this thread 

Just a few thoughts. This whole regular/irregular discussion is quite tiring. Remember that both terms only have value within your own organisation, not within 'Freemasonry at large' and the point is usually narrowed down to the subject. If a woman is curious about FM, is it offensive to let her know that there are indeed forms of FM that she could join if she wanted? Does it matter if this reference is to a mixed gender lodge and not a women-only lodge? There are more countries with mixed-gender organisations than with women-only organisations. I usually just refer to a website I made about the subject so the person with the question can inform herself.
I said 'narrowed down'. When we talk about women and Freemasonry, some people like to use the word "clandestine", some even say "bogus", while in fact such organisations are only "irregular" to your organisation. When two mixed gender organisations are on good terms with each other, they are "regular" to each other. 
When a colored person informs about FM, but he lives in the Southern states, is it offensive to way that there is something such as Prince Hall? These lodges are irregular in the Southern US, right? Is it because "regular" Southern lodges aren't 'enlightened' enough to recognise Prince Hall that saying this form of FM exists contrary to your "obligation"?
A similar example: 'atheistic' or 'adogmatic' people. They can join the Grand Orient de France, "regular" to many grand lodges. A few decades ago when the GOdF was not "regular" the same referral would have been offensive?

No I'm not saying that it's a matter of time before mixed gender or female Freemasonry will be "regular", I'm just saying, that the whole "regular"/"irregular" discussion is used way too black and white and used in a way that says more about the responder's character than Freemasonry at large. There have been different forms of Freemasonry since the beginning. "Antient", "Modern", "Prince Hall", name it. Mixed gender and female Freemasonry (which also comes in different forms) is one of these forms. Some people may be in a Grand Lodge that cooperates with such organisations (I do not way "recognise"), some may not, but that is of no concern to people who inform about on an internet forum and may live in an entirely different part of the world. Mixed gender Freemasonry has been there for 125 year. Heck, in the early days of FM there have been mixed gender lodges, not just lodges of adoption. Recently detailed plans of the Strict Observance have been found for a _Maçonnerie des Dames _from 1780. Doesn't the ever returning discussion say more about our _Zeitgeist_?

Look at it this way. Mixed gender Freemasonry is out to make good man and women better, just as 'your' organisation may only be out to make good _men_ better. When at the end of the day, we have more 'better' people, the world will be better off, right? 

As for the rest. Sure, there may be "clandestine" organisations that admit women, organisations that are after people's money. I think there are more "regular" FM copyists that do that. Most mixed gender organisations are quite like your own. They've got lodges, a Grand Lodge/Orient, one or more organisations for 'higher degrees', etc. They also have a procedure for new members that will be quite like your own. Of course it may happen that a rotten apple gets through the procedures, but I'm sure that this also happens to "regular" lodges.
No, co-Masons aren't all feminist. I joined a mixed gender lodge for a very practical reason: my girlfriend wanted too and we decided to work on ourselves together instead of in two different organisations. 

Sure, there are co-Masons active on fora who take a fairly militant position and make a habit of feeling offended. Then again, there are "regular" Masons who get offended by the question of women in Freemasonry alone, only being able to rant and spit out terms such as "clandestine" (to be honest, the second group is usually worst). Not everybody manages to remain civil in the anonymous virtual arena. 

So to answer the question. Of course I will notify an inquiring woman about the fact that there are forms of Freemasonry available to her. I will also tell people who wonder about "atheistic" FM that there are forms of FM available to him/her, even though I am no fond of "secular" FM myself. That is not to offence "regular" Freemasons, but just because 'their' FM has long been not the only form. Besides, the Masonic landscape keeps changing. Some Grand Lodge loses "regularity" over their standpoint regarding homosexuals; another starts to cooperate with other types of lodges; the next has been "irregular" for decades, but comes to terms with UGLE. FM is like a river. Never the same, but all made of water. 

We don't all have to "recognise" each other officially, but can't we just recognise each others existence without being offended by that very fact? When a woman learns that she can't be a Freemason because of her sex, she may be surprised at first, but "regular" Freemasons may be surprised how few people within mixed gender Freemasonry are out to change "regular" FM. There's no need for that, the other options are there. People can make their own choices. What the more 'experienced' members _can_ do is inform people, teach them about the correspondences and differences, see to it that they don't fall into the hands of money-grabbers and stimulate them to become a better (wo)man.


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## goomba

MasterBulldawg said:


> Let me put it like this: I would recommend what my Grand Lodge recognized for women.  If my Grand Lodge did not have anything for women then I would recommend another service organization. I would not recommend any thing that calms to be part of  Freemasony with my Grand Lodge's approval.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app



Why would you recommend a service organization?


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## goomba

Karen Kidd has a few books on the topic:  https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Ground-...TF8&qid=1499760773&sr=8-1&keywords=karen+kidd

Also the Masonic Round Table has a few episodes on Co-Masonry.

Here's the bottom line for me.  I, nor my  grand lodge, owns Freemasonry and neither do you or yours.  I can say what my "branch" of Freemasonry sets as the standard.  But I have zero place saying what any other organization sets for its standard.

Just within my male only "branch" there is a vastness of what we recognize that so many don't realize.  The one right off the bat is the Swedish Rite (that here we know about thanks to our Swedish Rite brothers and our own reading).  But the ritual that most of us American Masons know and love is insanely different in other American lodges that practice the "same ritual".  Not only that but there are other rituals that are vastly different from our already vastly different American ritual.  There have been women Masons in our male only lodges for a long time.

I'm not advocating us merging or sharing fraternal relations.  But to not acknowledge each others existence is being intellectually dishonest and brothers to be honest I've only ever heard that come from us.

What is Freemasonry?  I do not know.  But I hope to die with God knowing I tried to find out without knowingly violating my heart.

To our Co-Masonic poster I've visited your site before you posted about it.  It's a great site.  While our grand lodges do not share fraternal relations I can still consider you a Masonic brother.  Will either of us violate our obligations nope.  But to ignore a branch of our craft is just silly.  From what I've heard Co-Masonry generally kicks our ass when it comes to education.


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## coachn

Just James said:
			
		

> I have often wondered whether:
> 
> - Masonry is so important that it is restricted to men
> - Masonry is so unimportant that it does not matter that it is restricted to men
> 
> Thoughts?


Often?


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## coachn

goomba said:


> What is Freemasonry?


Freemasonry is a total-immersion virtual-reality live-action role-playing theatrical-society focused upon moral purposes and based upon the borrowed lexicon (vocabulary and symbols) and lore of stonecraft masons.  

No one aspect of it is privately owned by one group; although many groups claim that they do. Don't spin your wheels on it though.  They're just in character playing out their organization's scripts.


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## goomba

coachn said:


> Freemasonry is a total-immersion virtual-reality live-action role-playing theatrical-society focused upon moral purposes and based upon the borrowed lexicon (vocabulary and symbols) and lore of stonecraft masons.
> 
> No one aspect of it is privately owned by one group; although many groups claim that they do. Don't spin your wheels on it though.  They're just in character playing out their organization's scripts.


The longer I practice Masonry the more I find that to be so true. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## Glen Cook

Roy_ said:


> ...When a colored person informs about FM, ..
> .



????


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## LK600

goomba said:


> The longer I practice Masonry the more I find that to be so true.



I am finding that Masonry, in this instance (meaning) blue lodge,  is more like my home base which I always return to, but allows me to explore numerous areas of interest/study.  If I so choose, I could simply be there and allow my experience to be what Coachn states.  I guess what I'm saying is it's 100% choice.


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## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> There are quite a few. The one that comes to mind quite readily is that the males seem to appear to have a passion to play "White Knight" to the feminist cause. Another is a an almost obsessive fixation upon balancing male-female energy in the lodge experience.





Glen Cook said:


> A member expelled from my mother GL for actually screaming in the building, bullying, and other acts. He was taken in by a co-masonic group.
> 
> On occasion I've had the responsibility to speak to he media for my mother GL I described the requirements to be a Mason in my jurisdiction. I did not include women. A male co-Mason was much upset that I did not include co-masonry within my definition. Rather than just noting the requirements of his obedience, he began a public diatribe against me. Now, I must say that his WM later sent me correspondence apologizing.


Got it. Thanks for the replies gentlemen.


----------



## Warrior1256

MasterBulldawg said:


> I'm pretty straightforward in my opinion about it: it's not Freemasonry and suggesting anyone join a clandestine lodge goes against my obligations...





MasterBulldawg said:


> I agree I did not perceive it to be masonry either. If a woman wanting to have a part of in Freemasonry I would recommend the Eastern Star.


Same here.


JJones said:


> sometimes I find myself wondering if my views on Freemasonry are too conservative.


Not in MHO.


Glen Cook said:


> Only when they disagree with mine


Lol!


----------



## CLewey44

This may be way off base here, but I'd have no problem with UGLE maybe recognizing some of the more 'fringe masonic' groups and allowing them into the Masonic family.  A lot of those groups actually rent out or use Masonic lodges and share many similarities. However, that doesn't mean I would say women should be able to join blue lodges.


----------



## Glen Cook

CLewey44 said:


> This may be way off base here, but I'd have no problem with UGLE maybe recognizing some of the more 'fringe masonic' groups and allowing them into the Masonic family.  A lot of those groups actually rent out or use Masonic lodges and share many similarities. However, that doesn't mean I would say women should be able to join blue lodges.


Well, to be clear, UGLE doesn't "recognise " feminine Freemasonry in the sense we use the word; to be in amity.  And certainly not with co-ed groups


----------



## CLewey44

That's true, I've read that about OES specifically. They don't jive in England.


----------



## Brother JC

Nothing in my Ob prevents me from guiding a woman to co- or female Masonry, so I have no problem doing it.
Let's look at it another way: I can't play on the sports team I volunteer for but I can play the sport, and the athletes will help me find a team.


----------



## Ripcord22A

JJones said:


> By not suggesting it, it is within my power to prevent it from happening.


I think you getting confused here brother....to me the power to prevent is prevent it from happening within your GL....I could be wrong though


Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## Glen Cook

CLewey44 said:


> That's true, I've read that about OES specifically. They don't jive in England.


And just a note: we Masons can't jive, but the ladies can and do.


----------



## Warrior1256

CLewey44 said:


> However, that doesn't mean I would say women should be able to join blue lodges.


Absolutely! When someone asks why we do not admit women my reply is simply "Because we are a FRATERNITY!" Nuff said as far as I am concerned.


----------



## LK600

Brother JC said:


> Nothing in my Ob prevents me from guiding a woman to co- or female Masonry, so I have no problem doing it.
> Let's look at it another way: I can't play on the sports team I volunteer for but I can play the sport, and the athletes will help me find a team.


So... in your mind, our Freemasonry is no different than any other "Masonry lodge"?  I do not understand this way of thinking.  At best (to me), all the other "Freemasonry organizations" are emulating us, or in a not so generous term... playing pretend.  At worst, they are actively deceiving people into thinking their organizations are the same as ours. 

I've read over what I just wrote, and it sounds harsh.  Maybe it's because I'm so new.  If I offended anyone I apologize.


----------



## CLewey44

Emulation is the best form of flattery.


----------



## Roy_

You're correct LK600, but this way of reasoning is a bit too simple. Say a new organisation is founded, this happens every now and then. It gets new members, founds new lodges, becomes a Grand Lodge and all goes well. In the beginning they're "playing pretend". After a while other Grand Lodges start to recognise the new organisation and suddenly they're no longer "playing pretend"? They used not to be Freemasons and suddenly they are? This is the history of Prince Hall and other organisations. This is also the reason that UGLE has said of one of the UK women's Grand Lodges that they will not be recognised, but they are "otherwise regular in their practice". Thus, 'real Freemasonry', but 'of another kind'.

Does no recognition by your own Grand Lodge say anything about "playing pretend"? Are members of the Grand Lodge of Georgia suddenly "pretenders" because some other Grand Lodges punish their organisation over their homosexuality standpoint (while others didn't pull recognition)?

I think we should judge organisations not on the opaque (and political) system of recognition, but see if organisation is "otherwise regular in their practice" and if they are, should not shy to recommend them to people who are interested, but can't join the organisation you're a member of yourself.


----------



## coachn

Warrior1256 said:


> Absolutely! When someone asks why we do not admit women my reply is simply "Because we are a FRATERNITY!" Nuff said as far as I am concerned.


The answer I give: _Our founders chose to be male only and the membership have continually upheld that choice._


----------



## LK600

Roy_ said:


> You're correct LK600, but this way of reasoning is a bit too simple.


Agreed.


----------



## coachn

LK600 said:


> So... in your mind, our Freemasonry is no different than any other "Masonry lodge"?


In my mind, my Freemasonry is no different that any other role-playing society with moral purposes that put on the façade of being descendent from stonecraft, except that mine is one to which I belong, it is much more connected to other organizations than the unconnected ones, it is far more conservative, and it suffers from the same lack of actual self-improvement education as the others to which it is connected do.


LK600 said:


> I do not understand this way of thinking.  At best (to me), all the other "Freemasonry organizations" are emulating us, or in a not so generous term... playing pretend.


They play pretend no more or less than we play pretend.


LK600 said:


> At worst, they are actively deceiving people into thinking their organizations are the same as ours.


Nah.  We're all being deceived in one way or another by the wild claims that each organization puts out there to attract more members into their offered role-playing games.


LK600 said:


> I've read over what I just wrote, and it sounds harsh.


Nah.  It sounds right in line with what you were trained to say.  Chill!  You'll round those edges soon enough Bro.!


LK600 said:


> Maybe it's because I'm so new.  If I offended anyone I apologize.


Not yet.  But you'll know when you do.


----------



## LK600

coachn said:


> Not yet. But you'll know when you do.



Ha!  I have a suspicion your right lol.


----------



## Thomas Stright

Glen Cook said:
			
		

> One assumes you are speaking of female co-masons. It is my understanding they wear a modest gown.



So we need to change our rituals to meet the individual's need? All masons in my GL have went through the same as I have, It's what we have in common and IMHO places everyone on the level when entered.




Glen Cook said:


> Freemasonry is not restricted to men



According the to Obligation I took it is...


----------



## Brother JC

@LK600  Did you click on Glenn's link? "Regular in all ways except..." isn't just play-acting being us, it's conveying a moral message identical to ours in a different venue. I have no intention of trying to sit in lodge with any of these others, but I'm not going to vilify them, either. LDH has been around for over a century. It's not clandestine, it's unrecognized by my GL, that's all.
I think it's pretty egotistical to say our corporation is the only one that knows what it's doing.


----------



## coachn

Thomas Stright said:


> So we need to change our rituals to meet the individual's need?


We do this already.

How many times has ritual been changed to assist candidates who...

are in a wheelchair?
lack an arm due to service in the military?
suffer from an ailment that requires them to close their eyes rather than wear hoodwinks?
have back problems such that the third ruffian situation has got to be acted out such that they don't damage their backs further?
Or how about an officer who is in a wheelchair who travels through each and every office in the lodge one per year where ritual become a challenge to be performed exactly like others do?

We do make changes and have done so for some time.


Thomas Stright said:


> All masons in my GL have went through the same as I have, It's what we have in common and IMHO places everyone on the level when entered.


Your jurisdiction may be more rigid than others.  It is not the same all over.


Thomas Stright said:


> According the to Obligation I took it is...


Do you also believe that only Ford can make an authentic vehicle and that all other manufactures are pretenders?


----------



## Thomas Stright

coachn said:


> We do this already.
> 
> How many times has ritual been changed to assist candidates who...
> 
> are in a wheelchair?
> lack an arm due to service in the military?
> suffer from an ailment that requires them to close their eyes rather than wear hoodwinks?
> have back problems such that the third ruffian situation has got to be acted out such that they don't damage their backs further?
> Or how about an officer who is in a wheelchair who travels through each and every office in the lodge one per year where ritual become a challenge to be performed exactly like others do?
> 
> We do make changes and have done so for some time.
> 
> Your jurisdiction may be more rigid than others.  It is not the same all over.
> 
> Do you also believe that only Ford can make an authentic vehicle and that all other manufactures are pretenders?



As you already mentioned. My GL may be more rigid. I'm fine with how things are structured. 

There are some things I would like see changed at the GL level but allowing women is not one of them 


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----------



## coachn

Thomas Stright said:


> As you already mentioned. My GL may be more rigid. I'm fine with how things are structured.


And yet, your next statement contradicts your fineness statement...


Thomas Stright said:


> There are some things I would like see changed at the GL level ...


As would I.


Thomas Stright said:


> ...but allowing women is not one of them


And that is not the issue; it never was.  However, claiming "freemasonry is restricted to men", without adding the conditional phrase "in the freemasonic order to which I belong" is.


----------



## LK600

Brother JC said:


> @LK600  Did you click on Glenn's link? "Regular in all ways except..." isn't just play-acting being us, it's conveying a moral message identical to ours in a different venue. I have no intention of trying to sit in lodge with any of these others, but I'm not going to vilify them, either. LDH has been around for over a century. It's not clandestine, it's unrecognized by my GL, that's all.
> I think it's pretty egotistical to say our corporation is the only one that knows what it's doing.



Egotistical?  How about I change my name to yours... and go around and tell everyone I'm you.. or the same as you.  It's okay because I'm probably conveying similar things as you would?  no... it wouldn't be okay, and in some settings, it would be illegal.  Not trying to be argumentative, but this is how I see it.


----------



## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> The answer I give: _Our founders chose to be male only and the membership have continually upheld that choice._


Excellent!


Thomas Stright said:


> There are some things I would like see changed at the GL level but allowing women is not one of them


Same here.


----------



## Ripcord22A

LK600 said:


> Egotistical?  How about I change my name to yours... and go around and tell everyone I'm you.. or the same as you.  It's okay because I'm probably conveying similar things as you would?  no... it wouldn't be okay, and in some settings, it would be illegal.  Not trying to be argumentative, but this is how I see it.


Is the Canadian Football League still football?  Its not the NFL but what they do is still football is it not?

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----------



## Glen Cook

Thomas Stright said:


> So we need to change our rituals to meet the individual's need? All masons in my GL have went through the same as I have, It's what we have in common and IMHO places everyone on the level when entered.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According the to Obligation I took it is...



Well, I know some GLs which have changed the ritual to meet those with physical needs. Indeed, I have allowed brethren to sit rather than kneel. Further, ritual does  change. It is not immutable. Yet further, not all rituals are the same.

You note all Masons in _your_ GL have been through the same ritual.  But we were not speaking of your GL. 

Actually, it is my understanding that your ob prevents you from either being present at or assisting in making a woman a Mason.  So does mine.

It is not clear you understood  my quote was from the UGLE Board of General Purposes (Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men (even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women)).  I am a UGLE Mason.


----------



## Glen Cook

Thomas Stright said:


> As you already mentioned. My GL may be more rigid. I'm fine with how things are structured.
> 
> There are some things I would like see changed at the GL level but allowing women is not one of them
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


Who was advocating allowing women in our grand lodges?


----------



## Brother JC

LK600 said:


> Egotistical?  How about I change my name to yours... and go around and tell everyone I'm you.. or the same as you.  It's okay because I'm probably conveying similar things as you would?  no... it wouldn't be okay, and in some settings, it would be illegal.  Not trying to be argumentative, but this is how I see it.



Apples and oranges... if I start a grand lodge and call it the Grand Lodge of California, then your analogy would fit. Americans have changed everything about the Craft so much that you could say all of the US GLs were playing make-believe.
Obviously you aren't going to see beyond your "my GL" view, and that's fine. I have a broader vision that allows for other paths.


----------



## goomba

I'm going to try and say it differently.

My father and his brother both had families.  100 years from now if the Goomba surname is still around via descendants of those two people then the two separate families are descendants of my grand parents.

Over the decades are there vast differences, yes.  Do they consider each other immediate family, no.  But there would be no argument they are related even if they don't live in the same house.  Hell maybe some of the descendants have done something others find counter to the good name of Goomba.  Maybe some feel they are more Goomba than others.

I am not advocating admitting atheist and women into my lodge or grand lodge.  No am I advocating they change theirs either.

What I am saying is it is not intellectually honest to claim I alone have a claim to the name of Goomba.  To claim that only my descendants can be true to the Goomba name.

By all means have pride.  I hope that each Mason believes the lodge they belong to is the best in the world.  It's not about losing anything in our tradition.  It's about being open enough to just look out a window and acknowledge that there is indeed an entire world outside.  A world we may not want to explore or take part in.  But a world nonetheless.  

NOTE:  It's is normal not to explore the entire world.  Just because you eat at one restaurant does not mean you have to eat at all of them.


----------



## LK600

Ripcord22A said:


> Is the Canadian Football League still football?  Its not the NFL but what they do is still football is it not?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


No, it is not.


----------



## goomba

LK600 said:


> No, it is not.



Ok this is funny.


----------



## LK600

Brother JC said:


> Apples and oranges... if I start a grand lodge and call it the Grand Lodge of California, then your analogy would fit. Americans have changed everything about the Craft so much that you could say all of the US GLs were playing make-believe.
> Obviously you aren't going to see beyond your "my GL" view, and that's fine. I have a broader vision that allows for other paths.


I disagree on the apples to oranges, but that's okay.  Beyond that, I have no "GL view" due to being so new.  My view is what I bring with me good or bad.  I do agree on the "other Paths", but I think our view on what constitutes an other path may differ.  And at this point, I think it's best to bow out of the discussion (though I still need to respond to Goomba first).  Thank you for your thoughts, truly.


----------



## LK600

goomba said:


> I'm going to try and say it differently.
> 
> My father and his brother both had families.  100 years from now if the Goomba surname is still around via descendants of those two people then the two separate families are descendants of my grand parents.
> 
> Over the decades are there vast differences, yes.  Do they consider each other immediate family, no.  But there would be no argument they are related even if they don't live in the same house.  Hell maybe some of the descendants have done something others find counter to the good name of Goomba.  Maybe some feel they are more Goomba than others.
> 
> I am not advocating admitting atheist and women into my lodge or grand lodge.  No am I advocating they change theirs either.
> 
> What I am saying is it is not intellectually honest to claim I alone have a claim to the name of Goomba.  To claim that only my descendants can be true to the Goomba name.
> 
> By all means have pride.  I hope that each Mason believes the lodge they belong to is the best in the world.  It's not about losing anything in our tradition.  It's about being open enough to just look out a window and acknowledge that there is indeed an entire world outside.  A world we may not want to explore or take part in.  But a world nonetheless.
> 
> NOTE:  It's is normal not to explore the entire world.  Just because you eat at one restaurant does not mean you have to eat at all of them.


Thank you sir, you raise great points, some of which I have no answer for.  I may very well be combining/lumping varying groups under a singular definition inappropriately.  I am completely open to that possibility, as well as others.  Some of the lines of thought put forth in this thread are not... what I expected, to say the least.  And that's okay to.  But as stated above, it's time I bow out of this conversation before things devolve further.


----------



## Brother JC

LK600 said:


> Thank you for your thoughts, truly.


Thank you, my Brother.
This is one of those topics that really needs face-to-face conversation to be able to express what we're thinking. I always feel I'd make far more sense if I were speaking.


----------



## Brother JC

One quick note, LK; I am speaking specifically of LDH (regarding co-masonry), not just some spurious fly-by-night money grubber. This may not change your thoughts but I felt it needed clarifying.


----------



## Thomas Stright

Glen Cook said:


> *It is not clear you understood  my quote* was from the UGLE Board of General Purposes (Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men (even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women)).  I am a UGLE Mason.





Glen Cook said:


> Who was advocating allowing women in our grand lodges?




I must not have understood it, Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## LK600

Brother JC said:


> One quick note, LK; I am speaking specifically of LDH (regarding co-masonry), not just some spurious fly-by-night money grubber. This may not change your thoughts but I felt it needed clarifying.


I did come across LDH (Le Droit Humain) some years ago.  They appeared very well established with a global reach.  If I remember correctly, they were an offshoot of Freemasonry (ours I mean) and changed various rules (acceptance of women, belief in a God not required etc.). That pretty much sums up my knowledge of them.  

I am not sure if it changes my overall thoughts or not.  Regardless, the various nuances of other "Freemasonry groups" requires much further study by myself before I can intelligently speak of such things.  The more I look, the more I believe this may be a multi-faceted issue (not so black and white as I probably come across as).  Obviously, I have tendencies of protection towards the craft.


----------



## MasterBulldawg

goomba said:


> Why would you recommend a service organization?


 
Why? Because with assurance from my GL that what Masonic  body I was recommending was a honourable organization I could not recommend it. I personally have not done the research into alt-masonary to say was is or isn't a good organization. I would recommend something like rotary club, lion's club or something like that i know to be a legitimate organization.

Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## MasterBulldawg

goomba said:


> I'm going to try and say it differently.
> 
> My father and his brother both had families.  100 years from now if the Goomba surname is still around via descendants of those two people then the two separate families are descendants of my grand parents.
> 
> Over the decades are there vast differences, yes.  Do they consider each other immediate family, no.  But there would be no argument they are related even if they don't live in the same house.  Hell maybe some of the descendants have done something others find counter to the good name of Goomba.  Maybe some feel they are more Goomba than others.
> 
> I am not advocating admitting atheist and women into my lodge or grand lodge.  No am I advocating they change theirs either.
> 
> What I am saying is it is not intellectually honest to claim I alone have a claim to the name of Goomba.  To claim that only my descendants can be true to the Goomba name.
> 
> By all means have pride.  I hope that each Mason believes the lodge they belong to is the best in the world.  It's not about losing anything in our tradition.  It's about being open enough to just look out a window and acknowledge that there is indeed an entire world outside.  A world we may not want to explore or take part in.  But a world nonetheless.
> 
> NOTE:  It's is normal not to explore the entire world.  Just because you eat at one restaurant does not mean you have to eat at all of them.


Ok but what if someone popped up in 40 years claiming to be Goomba but had no documentation to prove it. Would you take them at their word?


----------



## goomba

MasterBulldawg said:


> Ok but what if someone popped up in 40 years claiming to be Goomba but had no documentation to prove it. Would you take them at their word?



I don't have any documentation that my dad and his brother are related.  

Why would you recommend a service organization?


----------



## MasterBulldawg

goomba said:


> Cause you know birth certificates can be faked or changed.  Plus maybe my mother said he was my dad but he isn't.  I've never had a DNA test.


Without soap opera plot lines and back here in real world....

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----------



## goomba

I'm sorry I work in the legal system and have seen this often in the real world.  Plus the company Life Lock seems to be nation wide for identity theft.  Documents are only a part of the larger picture.  

A dues card will not get you into, well it shouldn't, lodge alone.  There are other steps.

Third time:  Why would you recommend a service club?


----------



## MasterBulldawg

> Why would you recommend a service organization?


Why? Because with assurance from my GL that what Masonic  body I was recommending was a honourable organization I could not recommend it. I personally have not done the research into alt-masonary to say was is or isn't a good organization. I would recommend something like rotary club, lion's club or something like that i know to be a legitimate organization.

Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## goomba

So your recommendation is not based of why the person wanted to join?  I'm not questioning why you wouldn't recommend an unknown to you Masonic group.  That makes sense to me.

I am specifically why a service  group.


----------



## coachn

MasterBulldawg said:


> goomba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you recommend a service organization?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Because with assurance from my GL that what Masonic  body I was recommending was a honourable organization I could not recommend it. I personally have not done the research into alt-masonary to say was is or isn't a good organization. I would recommend something like rotary club, lion's club or something like that i know to be a legitimate organization.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app
Click to expand...

What determines legitimacy?


----------



## MasterBulldawg

goomba said:


> So your recommendation is not based of why the person wanted to join?  I'm not questioning why you wouldn't recommend an unknown to you Masonic group.  That makes sense to me.
> 
> I am specifically why a service  group.


For one I'm assuming the woman in question has just a basic knowledge of Freemasonry and that she is grouping us in with other service organizations. Because to the outward world Freemasonry has become a service organization with the Shriners Hospital for kids, the Scottish Rite dyslexic schools and all the blue Lodge community service projects.

Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## coachn

MasterBulldawg said:


> For one I'm assuming the woman in question has just a basic knowledge of Freemasonry and that she is grouping us in with other service organizations. Because to the outward world Freemasonry has become a service organization with the Shriners Hospital for kids, the Scottish Rite dyslexic schools and all the blue Lodge community service projects.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


How would you accurately determine if your assumptions are correct before you make any of your recommendations.


----------



## MasterBulldawg

coachn said:


> How would you accurately determine if your assumptions are correct before you make any of your recommendations.


If it had gone something like this and in  jurisdiction without O.E.S. or other recognized women's body.
 Female friend: oh I see you you are a mason, i have always wanted to join Freemasony.
Me: Well first in this jurisdiction there is no masonic order for women as it's a fraternity for men. But you might want to look into the Loyal order of the Moose, Elks lodge, Rotary or Lions as they accept women members. And with that i would change the subject.
 But since my jurisdiction has O.E.S and other bodies for women I can recommend them.

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----------



## coachn

> coachn said: ↑
> How would you accurately determine if your assumptions are correct before you make any of your recommendations.
> 
> 
> MasterBulldawg said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it had gone something like this and in  jurisdiction without O.S.E. or other recognized women's body.
> Female friend: oh I see you you are a mason, i have always wanted to join Freemasony.
> Me: Well first in this jurisdiction there is no masonic order for women as it's a fraternity for men. But you might want to look into the Loyal order of the Moose, Elks lodge, Rotary or Lions as they accept women members. And with that i would change the subject.
> But since my jurisdiction has O.E.S and other bodies for women I can recommend them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app
Click to expand...

Okay.  I get it.  You would assume that she wanted to join what your organization offered as service organization options that permitted females and provide other non-freemasonic service organization opportunities clearly outside of Freemasonry, all without ascertaining in any way whatsoever why she wanted to join Freemasonry in the first place.

That's an interesting way to accurately determine if your assumptions are correct as to her true interests for wanting to join and become a member.


----------



## MasterBulldawg

Ok CoachN, I'm curious as to what you would do in a situation similar to this where did Lady ask about Freemasonry there is no Freemasonry option that you know of that is recognized by your Grand Lodge or a alternate Freemasonry to be a legitimate Freemasonry options for this lady. Now of course giving a more detailed hypothetical situation my answer could and probably would change but but with the simple and generic hypothetical situation I was given that would probably be my response.

Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## coachn

MasterBulldawg said:


> Ok CoachN, I'm curious as to what you would do in a situation similar to this where did Lady ask about Freemasonry there is no Freemasonry option that you know of that is recognized by your Grand Lodge or a alternate Freemasonry to be a legitimate Freemasonry options for this lady. Now of course giving a more detailed hypothetical situation my answer could and probably would change but but with the simple and generic hypothetical situation I was given that would probably be my response.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


I would first find out why she wanted to join.  Should it be for Freemasonic rites/rights, lights and benefits,  I would let her know that there are female-craft options that, sans for gender differences, are in line with what she sought. 

I would also encourage her to seek out these organizations and do her due diligence upon them.

Her involvement or non-involvement in it would have absolutely no impact whatsoever upon the organization to which I belong, or its members.


----------



## Glen Cook

MasterBulldawg said:


> Ok CoachN, I'm curious as to what you would do in a situation similar to this where did Lady ask about Freemasonry there is no Freemasonry option that you know of that is recognized by your Grand Lodge or a alternate Freemasonry to be a legitimate Freemasonry options for this lady. Now of course giving a more detailed hypothetical situation my answer could and probably would change but but with the simple and generic hypothetical situation I was given that would probably be my response.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


I would explain that while they are not recognised by my jurisdiction, there are feminine lodges


----------



## MasterBulldawg

"Should it be for Freemasonic rites/rights, lights and benefits,  I would let her know that there are female-craft options that, sans for gender differences, are in line with what she sought."

Even if you did not know these other Masonic organizations to be legitimate Masonic organizations? 





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## coachn

MasterBulldawg said:


> "Should it be for Freemasonic rites/rights, lights and benefits,  I would let her know that there are female-craft options that, sans for gender differences, are in line with what she sought."
> 
> Even if you did not know these other Masonic organizations to be legitimate Masonic organizations?
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


I would let her know that these are options and as I had indicated in my post:_ I would also encourage her to seek out these organizations and do her due diligence upon them.  *Just as I would do for anyone seeking Freemasonic rites/rights, lights and benefits outside my membership jurisdiction.*_


----------



## Ripcord22A

MasterBulldawg said:


> "Should it be for Freemasonic rites/rights, lights and benefits,  I would let her know that there are female-craft options that, sans for gender differences, are in line with what she sought."
> 
> Even if you did not know these other Masonic organizations to be legitimate Masonic organizations?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


According to our(malecraft) organization none of them are "legitamate". 

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## MasterBulldawg

coachn said:


> What determines legitimacy?


For Masonic purposes it would have to be recognized by my Grand unless I had personal knowledge to the contrary, for Non Masonic purposes it would have to be an organization with the history that I can verify and knew it not to be a fraud or scheme. You see this is my personal opinion I am not an expert on Freemasonry nor do I claim to be but like everybody else on these boards I have my own opinion.

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## coachn

Ripcord22A said:


> According to our(malecraft) organization none of them are "legitamate".
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


Yes.  But that legitimacy has to do with who it will accept as members and what other jurisdictions it tells its members are okay to sit in lodge with. 

That legitimacy has nothing to do with profane females wanting to join a freemasonic organization that allows females.


----------



## CLewey44

Glen Cook said:


> I would explain that while they are not recognised by my jurisdiction, there are feminine lodges



Would that be Fe-masons?


----------



## coachn

MasterBulldawg said:


> For Masonic purposes it would have to be recognized by my Grand unless I had personal knowledge to the contrary, for Non Masonic purposes it would have to be an organization with the history that I can verify and knew it not to be a fraud or scheme. You see this is my personal opinion I am not an expert on Freemasonry nor do I claim to be but like everybody else on these boards I have my own opinion.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


I truly appreciate your sharing this.  Thank you.


----------



## coachn

CLewey44 said:


> Would that be Fe-masons?


Not to be confused with fee-masons.


----------



## Warrior1256

Glen Cook said:


> I would explain that while they are not recognised by my jurisdiction, there are feminine lodges


Sounds good.


----------



## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> ot to be confused with fee-masons.


Lol!


----------



## Brother JC

MasterBulldawg said:


> legitimate Masonic organizations



One of my GLs does not consider OES "legitimate" and two do... gosh, what am I to do? Oh, right, give her all her options, regardless. What do I care about supposed legitimacy? Who said the GL of London and Westminster was legitimate? Only the founders.


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## CLewey44

Bro. J.C., I personally don't see anything wrong with what you're saying. Not that you care what I think but just so you know. I feel ya.


----------



## Brother JC

Actually, my Brother, I do care what you think. If I get defensive or argumentative it's because I don't understand what someone thinks, not because I don't care.


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## MasterBulldawg

Brother JC said:


> One of my GLs does not consider OES "legitimate" and two do... gosh, what am I to do? Oh, right, give her all her options, regardless. What do I care about supposed legitimacy? Who said the GL of London and Westminster was legitimate? Only the founders.


I guess I must be different then some of y'all on this board because I'm not going to personally recommend anything to a friend much less a female friend that I do not know to be a safe organization that is not going to take them for tens of thousands and put them through hazing initiations. Again I'm not an expert on Freemasonry but if you belong the three grand lodges you can only be in one grand jurisdiction at a time and I would follow the customs of whichever Grand Lodge you belong to and that you are currently physically in period.

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## goomba

MasterBulldawg said:


> I guess I must be different then some of y'all on this board because I'm not going to personally recommend anything to a friend much less a female friend that I do not know to be a safe organization that is not going to take them for tens of thousands and put them through hazing initiations. Again I'm not an expert on Freemasonry but if you belong the three grand lodges you can only be in one grand jurisdiction at a time and I would follow the customs of whichever Grand Lodge you belong to and that you are currently physically in period.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


Just because you choose to remain uneducated on a topic does NOT mean any of us would put and ladies in danger. 

There are books, podcast, websites, and people you can utilize to learn. Your lack of education on the topic is a situation you and you alone are responsible for.

One such website was posted in this thread. I myself posted a well known author on the subject and were to find an excellent Masonic podcast.  One of the Masons in the podcast is a member of The GL of FL.

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## Warrior1256

goomba said:


> Just because you choose to remain uneducated on a topic does NOT mean any of us would put and ladies in danger.


Of course!


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## MasterBulldawg

goomba said:


> Just because you choose to remain uneducated on a topic does NOT mean any of us would put and ladies in danger.
> 
> There are books, podcast, websites, and people you can utilize to learn. Your lack of education on the topic is a situation you and you alone are responsible for.
> 
> One such website was posted in this thread. I myself posted a well known author on the subject and were to find an excellent Masonic podcast.  One of the Masons in the podcast is a member of The GL of FL.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


First off my original answer to the original question was I would recommend the Eastern Star then it became a hypothetical question what if the Eastern star wasn't an option and I gave my answer on that but then it seems like a few was giving me a hard time and Nick picking my answers so I tried to answer in the more clear and concise manner. Then somebody answers with the sarcastic comment and again I tried to be clear and concise. Now as to being uneducated on the subject I have admitted that I'm not an expert on everything Freemasonry now you may be an expert but there are some things I just have not had the chance to research and get to know like co-masonry Masonry and female Freemasonry it's one of those things I haven't gotten around to researching yet mainly because in my jurisdiction we have these Eastern star and I can recommend them and I have other priorities to research and learn about Freemasonry then those. What I said unless  I personally know that the organization is safe I would not recommend it. Now if you have done the research and you feel comfortable in making such a recommendation to a friend then that is your personal choice. And we all know that all the research on the internet is 100% reliable don't we.

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## Brother JC

@MasterBulldawg  You seem to assume I wouldn't check something out before I recommend it; false assumption. I'm well aware of the difference between unrecognized and clandestine/spurious.
As to what my GL says, they're silent. They don't regulate what I say to the curious.


----------



## MasterBulldawg

Brother JC said:


> @MasterBulldawg  You seem to assume I wouldn't check something out before I recommend it; false assumption. I'm well aware of the difference between unrecognized and clandestine/spurious.
> As to what my GL says, they're silent. They don't regulate what I say to the curious.


I never mentioned any names or screen names. So let me try this again speaking for me personally as someone who is not an expert in Freemasonry but it's just the brother that is still learning about Freemasony I cannot recommend an organization that I do not know to be safe. But if another brother has done their due diligence and wants to recommend Co Masonry or all female Freemasonry then that is their choice. 

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## Ripcord22A

I think we all need to step back and take a breath.  @MasterBulldawg im sorry.  I think that the group here has come to the realization that these other groups exist and are Freemasonic in their workings and we accept that and even though our GLs dont recognize them they exist.

you belong you a GL that doesn't recognize pha correct?  Would you recommend a black man join pha?  I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure that your ob doesn't prevent you from telling a woman that there are groups that accept women, but yours doesn't.  Also you say that you'd recommend OES, what if that woman doesn't have a Freemasonic connection?  My understanding is that in order to be a member that woman must have a freemason relative....

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## MasterBulldawg

Ripcord22A said:


> I think we all need to step back and take a breath.  @MasterBulldawg im sorry.  I think that the group here has come to the realization that these other groups exist and are Freemasonic in their workings and we accept that and even though our GLs dont recognize them they exist.
> 
> you belong you a GL that doesn't recognize pha correct?  Would you recommend a black man join pha?  I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure that your ob doesn't prevent you from telling a woman that there are groups that accept women, but yours doesn't.  Also you say that you'd recommend OES, what if that woman doesn't have a Freemasonic connection?  My understanding is that in order to be a member that woman must have a freemason relative....
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app



Yes my GL doesn't recognize PHA but that's because PHA does not want our recognition or so i heard but that's a topic for another day. If a black man asked me about joining and i know him to be worthy I would explain the difference  in  the 2 groups. Tell him to check and research both groups. Visit local lodges that while he could not attend meetings he could come to dinner as most MS lodge has a meal before meetings and meet the other brothers. I would recommend him do the same with  PHA and since I have a coworker who is in PH  I would  put them in touch with each other. I would invite him to my lodge and  be ready with a petition should he ask for. You see while I did not have first-hand knowledge of Prince Hall Masonry I do know a brother from a mainstream Lodge that came over from Prince Hall and he said that their work was pretty much the same with just a few minor differences also I have a co-worker who is a Prince Hall Mason and while we have never really discussed Masonry I know him to be a good and honorable man so I would have no problem recommending this black man to him and him to the black man. And while Florida does not have many we do have a few black Brothers. As to the eastern star that is true but I would recommend her to talk to someone in th OES as I am not member and do not  know all the details. You see I have done some research into Prince Hall Masonry as I know a brother who used to be a Prince Hall Mason and I know I have a co-worker that is a Prince Hall Mason so I feel pretty confident that their organization is a safe organization that's why I wouldn't hesitate in recommending it a black man. But with Co Masonry and all female Lodge I do not have any real knowledge as I have not done the research as it has not been a top priority for me so I don't know them to be regular. I know of no Co masonry person who's coming over to the mainstream Lodge and I know no female Mason. That's why I would be hesitant in recommending either of those organizations. I've never had a woman asked me about joining Freemasonry but I do have young guys asking me about Freemasonry and that they've heard rumors that Freemasonry is still segregated and that it's homophobic and then I have to go on and explain exactly what Freemasonry is in my Grand Lodge and while I'm explaining that mention that if they have a wife or sister or somebody that wants to get involved in Freemasonry that there's the Eastern Star and Masonic youth associations. As far as recommendations go if I don't have first-hand knowledge or done the research or have information from a trusted Source on an organization or for that matter anything that I'm recommending I'm not going to recommend it but again that is my personal choice. 

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----------



## coachn

MasterBulldawg said:


> Yes my GL doesn't recognize PHA but that's because PHA does not want our recognition or so i heard but that's a topic for another day. If a black man asked me about joining and i know him to be worthy I would explain the difference  in  the 2 groups. Tell him to check and research both groups. Visit local lodges that while he could not attend meetings he could come to dinner as most MS lodge has a meal before meetings and meet the other brothers. I would recommend him do the same with  PHA and since I have a coworker who is in PH  I would  put them in touch with each other. I would invite him to my lodge and  be ready with a petition should he ask for. You see while I did not have first-hand knowledge of Prince Hall Masonry I do know a brother from a mainstream Lodge that came over from Prince Hall and he said that their work was pretty much the same with just a few minor differences also I have a co-worker who is a Prince Hall Mason and while we have never really discussed Masonry I know him to be a good and honorable man so I would have no problem recommending this black man to him and him to the black man. And while Florida does not have many we do have a few black Brothers. As to the eastern star that is true but I would recommend her to talk to someone in th OES as I am not member and do not  know all the details. You see I have done some research into Prince Hall Masonry as I know a brother who used to be a Prince Hall Mason and I know I have a co-worker that is a Prince Hall Mason so I feel pretty confident that their organization is a safe organization that's why I wouldn't hesitate in recommending it a black man. But with Co Masonry and all female Lodge I do not have any real knowledge as I have not done the research as it has not been a top priority for me so I don't know them to be regular. I know of no Co masonry person who's coming over to the mainstream Lodge and I know no female Mason. That's why I would be hesitant in recommending either of those organizations. I've never had a woman asked me about joining Freemasonry but I do have young guys asking me about Freemasonry and that they've heard rumors that Freemasonry is still segregated and that it's homophobic and then I have to go on and explain exactly what Freemasonry is in my Grand Lodge and while I'm explaining that mention that if they have a wife or sister or somebody that wants to get involved in Freemasonry that there's the Eastern Star and Masonic youth associations. As far as recommendations go if I don't have first-hand knowledge or done the research or have information from a trusted Source on an organization or for that matter anything that I'm recommending I'm not going to recommend it but again that is my personal choice.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


RE: Yes my GL doesn't recognize PHA but that's because PHA does not want our recognition or so i heard but that's a topic for another day.

FYI...

*STRAIGHT FROM A PHA GOOD FRIEND:* _PHA Florida Recognized Mainstream Florida years ago via a letter to the FL MSGL and the Mainstream Florida  GL ignored them.  PHA Florida rescinded Recognition of FLMSGL after it received no response._ 

What you heard about PHA no wanting Recognition was not true when the PHA letter to Mainstream Florida was sent.  It is FLMSGL's move next.


----------



## MasterBulldawg

coachn said:


> RE: Yes my GL doesn't recognize PHA but that's because PHA does not want our recognition or so i heard but that's a topic for another day.
> 
> FYI...
> 
> *STRAIGHT FROM A PHA GOOD FRIEND:* _PHA Florida Recognized Mainstream Florida years ago via a letter to the FL MSGL and the Mainstream Florida  GL ignored them.  PHA Florida rescinded Recognition of FLMSGL after it received no response._
> 
> What you heard about PHA no wanting Recognition was not true when the PHA letter to Mainstream Florida was sent.  It is FLMSGL's move next.



CouchN, 

I have heard 2 different stories: 1. Is like I said in my other post that PHA did not want our recognition now the part I did not say was the reason. I was told that it was because PHA thinks we are not selective enough in petition process that we let anyone in that can pass a background check and have the money for the initiation fee.

2. Was the same as you said above that they had sent a letter recognition to our Grand Lodge but when they were informed that there was a process that needed to be completed for them to gain recognition they decline to go through the process.

Also something that is use as an excuse is the fact that there is a couple Grand lodges claiming to be Prince Hall. But I believe the one in Jacksonville to be the real one   based on my limited research.

Now I heard both these stories from two different brothers that was at the very high up in our Grand Lodge at one time and continues the be very active. Also know that there is a groundswell of support for recognition in the craft and i have hope to see it come out each year when they release the proposed legislation but as yet not seen it.


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## LK600

> *STRAIGHT FROM A PHA GOOD FRIEND:* _PHA Florida Recognized Mainstream Florida years ago via a letter to the FL MSGL and the Mainstream Florida  GL ignored them.  PHA Florida rescinded Recognition of FLMSGL after it received no response._
> 
> What you heard about PHA no wanting Recognition was not true when the PHA letter to Mainstream Florida was sent.  It is FLMSGL's move next.



Fwiw, I have been advised the same thing as Masterbuilddawg... at least in how the matter stands now.  As far as what you conveyed, I do not doubt that.


----------



## coachn

MasterBulldawg said:


> CouchN,
> 
> I have heard 2 different stories: 1. Is like I said in my other post that PHA did not want our recognition now the part I did not say was the reason. I was told that it was because PHA thinks we are not selective enough in petition process that we let anyone in that can pass a background check and have the money for the initiation fee.
> 
> 2. Was the same as you said above that they had sent a letter recognition to our Grand Lodge but when they were informed that there was a process that needed to be completed for them to gain recognition they decline to go through the process.
> 
> Also something that is use as an excuse is the fact that there is a couple Grand lodges claiming to be Prince Hall. But I believe the one in Jacksonville to be the real one   based on my limited research.
> 
> Now I heard both these stories from two different brothers that was at the very high up in our Grand Lodge at one time and continues the be very active. Also know that there is a groundswell of support for recognition in the craft and i have hope to see it come out each year when they release the proposed legislation but as yet not seen it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


Yep.  I've heard these too and a few more as well.  

I too hope this will be resolved and soon enough for me to enjoy sitting with Brothers who clearly need to be recognized.


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## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> I too hope this will be resolved and soon enough for me to enjoy sitting with Brothers who clearly need to be recognized.


PHA and GL of Kentucky recognized each other years ago but no visitation privileges granted. This was remedied last year.


----------



## Ripcord22A

MasterBulldawg said:


> Yes my GL doesn't recognize PHA but that's because PHA does not want our recognition or so i heard but that's a topic for another day. If a black man asked me about joining and i know him to be worthy I would explain the difference  in  the 2 groups. Tell him to check and research both groups. Visit local lodges that while he could not attend meetings he could come to dinner as most MS lodge has a meal before meetings and meet the other brothers. I would recommend him do the same with  PHA and since I have a coworker who is in PH  I would  put them in touch with each other. I would invite him to my lodge and  be ready with a petition should he ask for. You see while I did not have first-hand knowledge of Prince Hall Masonry I do know a brother from a mainstream Lodge that came over from Prince Hall and he said that their work was pretty much the same with just a few minor differences also I have a co-worker who is a Prince Hall Mason and while we have never really discussed Masonry I know him to be a good and honorable man so I would have no problem recommending this black man to him and him to the black man. And while Florida does not have many we do have a few black Brothers. As to the eastern star that is true but I would recommend her to talk to someone in th OES as I am not member and do not  know all the details. You see I have done some research into Prince Hall Masonry as I know a brother who used to be a Prince Hall Mason and I know I have a co-worker that is a Prince Hall Mason so I feel pretty confident that their organization is a safe organization that's why I wouldn't hesitate in recommending it a black man. But with Co Masonry and all female Lodge I do not have any real knowledge as I have not done the research as it has not been a top priority for me so I don't know them to be regular. I know of no Co masonry person who's coming over to the mainstream Lodge and I know no female Mason. That's why I would be hesitant in recommending either of those organizations. I've never had a woman asked me about joining Freemasonry but I do have young guys asking me about Freemasonry and that they've heard rumors that Freemasonry is still segregated and that it's homophobic and then I have to go on and explain exactly what Freemasonry is in my Grand Lodge and while I'm explaining that mention that if they have a wife or sister or somebody that wants to get involved in Freemasonry that there's the Eastern Star and Masonic youth associations. As far as recommendations go if I don't have first-hand knowledge or done the research or have information from a trusted Source on an organization or for that matter anything that I'm recommending I'm not going to recommend it but again that is my personal choice.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


I can respect that.  What I would advise though is that from my limited research I have found more bogus/spurious/boarderline dangerous GLs claiming to be PHA then CO/Fem GLs.

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## Roy_

This thread is running off-topic, but I'm glad to see that most responders do not seem to object talking about mixed gender FM. That is (in my eyes) an improvement. Not too long ago when I joined this forum only mentioning that I was member of such an organisation unleashed havoc.

Would it be fun / educational to have a thread _about _mixed gender and "femalecraft" Freemasonry?


----------



## coachn

Roy_ said:


> This thread is running off-topic, but I'm glad to see that most responders do not seem to object talking about mixed gender FM. That is (in my eyes) an improvement. Not too long ago when I joined this forum only mentioning that I was member of such an organisation unleashed havoc.
> 
> Would it be fun / educational to have a thread _about _mixed gender and "femalecraft" Freemasonry?


LOL!  You act as if you should have expected differently from members of a male dominated forum who are members of male craft.


----------



## Roy_

I do, that's why I just wanted to mention that this thread is surprisingly open.


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## Ripcord22A

Roy_ said:


> This thread is running off-topic, but I'm glad to see that most responders do not seem to object talking about mixed gender FM. That is (in my eyes) an improvement. Not too long ago when I joined this forum only mentioning that I was member of such an organisation unleashed havoc.
> 
> Would it be fun / educational to have a thread _about _mixed gender and "femalecraft" Freemasonry?


Ill admit it, i was one that didnt agree with it, still really dont...however I understand that it exists and offers something that my GL doesnt and there is nothing I can do about it.  Also after reading what coach, glen and JC have said opened my eyes.  Just cause my GL says something doesnt make it so outside of my borders!  Also the PHA and gay situation made this topic a bit more clear for me as well

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## Warrior1256

coachn said:


> LOL! You act as if you should have expected differently from members of a male dominated forum who are members of male craft.


Yeah, really!


----------



## Warrior1256

Roy_ said:


> I'm glad to see that most responders do not seem to object talking about mixed gender FM. That is (in my eyes) an improvement. Not too long ago when I joined this forum only mentioning that I was member of such an organisation unleashed havoc.


I really have no problem with someone joining co-masonry, to each his own I say. However, I do have a problem when someone tells me that I SHOULD recognize it as legitimate and failure to do so makes me a bigot, sexist, etc., etc., etc.


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## Ripcord22A

Warrior1256 said:


> I really have no problem with someone joining co-masonry, to each his own I say. However, I do have a problem when someone tells me that I SHOULD recognize it as legitimate and failure to do so makes me a bigot, sexist, etc., etc., etc.


I would also say that as long as they explain to their petitioners that their sect of Freemasonry is not what the World At Large recognizes as Freemasonry and that there will only be a small selection of lodges that they will be able to visit

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## Warrior1256

Ripcord22A said:


> I would also say that as long as they explain to their petitioners that their sect of Freemasonry is not what the World At Large recognizes as Freemasonry and that there will only be a small selection of lodges that they will be able to visit


Agreed.


----------



## JJones

Warrior1256 said:


> I really have no problem with someone joining co-masonry, to each his own I say. However, I do have a problem when someone tells me that I SHOULD recognize it as legitimate and failure to do so makes me a bigot, sexist, etc., etc., etc.



You know, this thread has encouraged me to do a good deal of reflection on this topic and I've come to the same conclusion. In fact, the reason I started this thread in the first place was that I've voiced my opinion on this topic in the past and was told I was ignorant, sexist, and so forth.

We don't have to agree to get along. I'll hear your opinions and thoughts but be prepared to hear mine as well.


----------



## Roy_

Ripcord22A said:


> Ill admit it, i was one that didnt agree with it, still really dont...however I understand that it exists and offers something that my GL doesnt and there is nothing I can do about it.  Also after reading what coach, glen and JC have said opened my eyes.  Just cause my GL says something doesnt make it so outside of my borders!  Also the PHA and gay situation made this topic a bit more clear for me as well



Often things are presented black-and-white, while the Masonic landscape is very divers. It could well be that of three GLs two recognise one another but not the third, while that third is not necessarily the same from all points of the triangle, just look at 'the Georgia situation'.

History learns us that "regular" versus "irregular" is not an unchanging situation either. Only decades after the "Premier Grand Lodge" there already were three other, some "united" later on, other took centuries to recognise each other. 

Then there are quite big differences between what is sometimes called "Anglo-American" and "continental" Freemasonry. Just think about the fact that the largest Masonic organisation in France allows their lodges to admit women. The fact that they don't play by exactly the same rules as your own GL, so there can be no visitation, does that mean that they practice 'false' FM? Like I said earlier, perhaps we should (try to) see which organisations are "otherwise regular in their workings", there is no reason to fight.



Warrior1256 said:


> I really have no problem with someone joining co-masonry, to each his own I say. However, I do have a problem when someone tells me that I SHOULD recognize it as legitimate and failure to do so makes me a bigot, sexist, etc., etc., etc.



There will certainly be people who think that way, but it's similar the other way around. Organisations that do not play by the same rules as someone's GL are "clandestine" and should vanish, instead of just 'not recognised by my GL'. A better path, in my opinion, is to acknowledge that there are different forms of FM and some (many) may not be ours. 



Ripcord22A said:


> I would also say that as long as they explain to their petitioners that their sect of Freemasonry is not what the World At Large recognizes as Freemasonry and that there will only be a small selection of lodges that they will be able to visit



That is not entirely true. Say, you're a member of the Regular Grand Lodge of Belgium. They represent *6*% of the Belgian Freemasons, so you will not be able to visit 94% of the Belgian lodges. Or you're a "regular" Mason from the USA and you travel to France... Masonic life is easier for "irregular" Masons in both countries. On a global scale you are undoubtedly correct.

Personally I don't really see this as an argument either way. In my country there are some 30 lodges that I can visit (mixed gender of different organisations) and some 180 ("regular") that I can't. I have a hard time enough to even visit all these 30 lodges once. When I look at Belgium there are hundreds of lodges that I can visit, but I probably never will. When I travel to some country, say Iceland, there are lodges that I can visit. I can only 'pick' from fewer lodges, but still many more than I will ever have the time for.



JJones said:


> You know, this thread has encouraged me to do a good deal of reflection on this topic and I've come to the same conclusion. In fact, the reason I started this thread in the first place was that I've voiced my opinion on this topic in the past and was told I was ignorant, sexist, and so forth.
> 
> We don't have to agree to get along. I'll hear your opinions and thoughts but be prepared to hear mine as well.



Like I said above, as long as we recognise that we all are here and respect that people make choices that would not have been your own, we can inform people who are looking for more information and tell them about the differences without torching organisations that are not (recognised by) your own.


----------



## Warrior1256

JJones said:


> We don't have to agree to get along. I'll hear your opinions and thoughts but be prepared to hear mine as well.


Absolutely, very fair. We are entitled to our opinions.


----------



## Warrior1256

Roy_ said:


> A better path, in my opinion, is to acknowledge that there are different forms of FM and some (many) may not be ours.


I do acknowledge that there are different types of Masonry. But I also consider co-Masonry as irregular and clandestine. As I said, to each his own.


----------



## Bill Lins

Roy_ said:


> In my country there are some 30 lodges that I can visit (mixed gender of different organisations) and some 180 ("regular") that I can't.


What country would that be, sir?


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## Ripcord22A

While i know next to nothing about Co-masonry it seems more like the Odd-fellows to me

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## Elexir

Ripcord22A said:


> While i know next to nothing about Co-masonry it seems more like the Odd-fellows to me
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app




No, co-masonry is part of the masonic family, almost all co-masonic orders have their orgins as male only.


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## Roy_

Warrior1256 said:


> I do acknowledge that there are different types of Masonry. But I also consider co-Masonry as irregular and clandestine. As I said, to each his own.



"Irregular" to your organisation perhaps, "clandestine" not. Let's reserve that term for organisation that are only after people's money, while other may very well be "otherwise regular in their workings".



Bill Lins said:


> What country would that be, sir?



Netherlands.



Ripcord22A said:


> While i know next to nothing about Co-masonry it seems more like the Odd-fellows to me



Odd-Fellows are a whole different game. The difference between "regular" and "irregular" is usually relatively small, far smaller than between FM and Odd-Fellows. The rituals are roughly identical (not more different than between "regular" lodges from different GL's (or even within one GL in some occasions), but the organisation does not (for example) explicitly require the belief in 'something higher' or explicitly forbid the discussion of religion or politics and only that is what makes them irregular. In 'my case', my organisation allows the initiation of women, but for the rest, the way we work is almost exactly the same as that of "regular" lodges. This is not _entirely_ true in the Netherlands though, since our most-used ritual is based on Emulation, while the rituals of the (regular) Grand Orient of the Netherlands have their own history. Both both are obviously FM and nothing else.


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## Glen Cook

Roy_ said:


> "Irregular" to your organisation perhaps, "clandestine" not. Let's reserve that term for organisation that are only after people's money, while other may very well be "otherwise regular in their workings".
> .



We who make these recommendations use clandestine to refer to comasonry.


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## Bloke

Glen Cook said:


> ..Note, that I have been an officer in a co-ed fraternal.



Co-ed Fraternal ?

I put an answer into the poll thread and cause I am lazy will cut and paste.

Generally, I answered yes, I would recommend a woman to join a Female or Co-Masonic order, and have often done so. I also mention Eastern Star and Amaranth.... but that's not helpful to strangers. Their only option "irregular" group here ("irregular" being a subjective, not universal but widely and frequently consistently defined word) is Le Droit humain (LDH) , and we only have two lodges working in a city of 4.6 million people.. I'd actually be very sad to hear of LDH demise here; it is quite weak and could use the members ! HOWEVER, I would not recommend a male to them, unless he, after explanation, objected to "us" being a male only fraternity, then I would send him to LDH.

If my partner wanted to join, I'd ask her to try OES first.. but if she wanted to join LDH, there is no way I would object... to do so opens me to double standards, I want to be a member of Ancient Free and Accepted Masons (or what ever your local regular GL is called) and I cannot see how I would have any right to object to her joining any lawful group which she wanted to join... oh, unless it is the local swingers group... 



MasterBulldawg said:


> ......I'm not going to personally recommend anything to a friend much less a female friend that I do not know to be a safe organization that is not going to take them for tens of thousands and put them through hazing initiations. ...



Le Droit Humain would not allow hazing, I would say if part of LDH international, you're on safe ground recommending them.


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## Bloke

goomba said:


> Karen Kidd has a few books on the topic.....



Years ago I was on another boards with Bro Karen. She gave me a much better understanding of regularity. It's wonderfully short, and if you have not read it before (and I am sure many of you would have) read her "I am Regular" essay http://beacon190.ca/2017/02/11/i-am-regular/

Back to the topic. Firstly, to the casual reader, I will say Freemasonry is not a Religion, its a Fraternity, but I will use a Religious analogy to explain my view on "Freemasonry" which I see as a broad term like "Christianity". Within Christianity you have Catholic and Protestants, and within Protestantism all sorts of groups like Anglicans, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Pentecostals etc etc. All have some shared beliefs and are Christians but also have their own beliefs, traditions and history. So it is with "Freemasonry". As a respectful and open minded man, I would not say one Christian Church is more valid in society simply because I subscribe to it and not others. Just as I believe in Freedom of Religion, I also, for want of other phrase, believe in Freedom of Freemasonry. To show a lack of respect for others masonic traditions is bad manners and in much the same way I am cautious in showing a lack of respect for any Religion which is not a scam designed to fleece people.

Indeed, just as traditions like Buddhism and Hinduism have informed by Christian journey and understanding, so is it with other masonic traditions which have informed and supported my masonic journey in what is broadly regarded as "regular Freemasonry". I am confident enough in the Traditions and merit of my Grand Lodge so as not to be threatened by any other - even if it happened to be larger or more popular, which to date, is not the case...

Just as I respect those who walk another Religious Path,  I afford a similar respect those who walk another Masonic Path.


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## Zack

Bloke said:


> Just as I respect those who walk another Religious Path, I afford a similar respect those who walk another Masonic Path.



" live and let live"


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## coachn

re: Recommending Comasonry...

I don't "recommend" or even "suggest" Freemasonry in any form to anyone.  It is something that either attracts a person, or not. 

However, should a person be interested in its many varied organizational manifestations, and there are quite a few variations upon its theme, I have no problem letting them know what I know about them, sans the usual "secret" stuff that has nothing to do with the interests of the person being served. 

Even if that person expresses an interest in knowing the "secrets", I tell them straightforward that he or she shall walk away severely disappointed in what is shared if that is the only interest in joining.

I've said this before.  There are no "secrets" as most people understand the word.  There is only information considered peculiar to each version of Freemasonry and that information is not as peculiar to each as most would want you to believe.

As far as providing any information that will eventually lead to assumed "secrets" being revealed, I call "shenanigans!"  Anyone ignorant enough to believe my sharing information with someone interested in organizations other than my own will in any way, shape or form violate my obligation even indirectly is playing a guilt game that has no bearing upon the real world or my obligations. 

I would much rather a person walk into an insane asylum understanding its dangers than to have that person walk into one not realizing there are dangers and be unaware of them as they interact with the inmates and staff.  Each person will soon enough discover what is peculiar to that institution and what is not.


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## Warrior1256

Glen Cook said:


> We who make these recommendations use clandestine to refer to comasonry.


True.


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## Bill Lins

Bloke said:


> Years ago I was on another boards with Bro Karen. She gave me a much better understanding of regularity. It's wonderfully short, and if you have not read it before (and I am sure many of you would have) read her "I am Regular" essay http://beacon190.ca/2017/02/11/i-am-regular/


Hogwash. To begin with, the word "brother" BY DEFINITION refers exclusively to those of the male gender/sex. Even if a woman undergoes sex reassignment surgery/treatment, she cannot EVER become a "Brother". Likewise, anyone with the most basic understanding of the Latin language knows that the word "fraternity" BY DEFINITION refers exclusively to a group of males.

Secondly, "regularity" in the Masonic sense refers to both the origin and the practices of a purportedly Masonic body. To what body does Karen belong? How was it formed? Is it recognized by any truly regular Masonic body? What are its specific practices? Under the rules of MY Grand Lodge, it is not and can never be regular as it allows women to be members. It may indeed be a wonderful organization and she may indeed be a wonderful person, but she is not and will never be a "Brother" or a "regular" Mason.


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## Elexir

Bill Lins said:


> Hogwash. To begin with, the word "brother" BY DEFINITION refers exclusively to those of the male gender/sex. Even if a woman undergoes sex reassignment surgery/treatment, she cannot EVER become a "Brother".



Sorry but this annoys me a bit for some personal reasons.

So you mean that a person who has undergone a full transition, has a male name, looks male and is considerd a man by most people would not be welcomed as a brother?


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## goomba

Does brother refer to gender or is it a title of the fraternity?

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## Ripcord22A

Elexir said:


> Sorry but this annoys me a bit for some personal reasons.
> 
> So you mean that a person who has undergone a full transition, has a male name, looks male and is considerd a man by most people would not be welcomed as a brother?


This one I'd have to say no on.  Being gay is one thing but once a woman always a woman.

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## goomba

Ripcord22A said:


> This one I'd have to say no on.  Being gay is one thing but once a woman always a woman.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


100%

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## JJones

Elexir said:


> Sorry but this annoys me a bit for some personal reasons.
> 
> So you mean that a person who has undergone a full transition, has a male name, looks male and is considered a man by most people would not be welcomed as a brother?



What if I go to the zoo and paint black and white stripes on a horse? Does that make is a zebra? What if most of the zoo visitors consider it a zebra because it looks as acts like one?


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## Bloke

Bill Lins said:


> Hogwash. To begin with, the word "brother" BY DEFINITION refers exclusively to those of the male gender/sex. Even if a woman undergoes sex reassignment surgery/treatment, she cannot EVER become a "Brother". Likewise, anyone with the most basic understanding of the Latin language knows that the word "fraternity" BY DEFINITION refers exclusively to a group of males.
> 
> Secondly, "regularity" in the Masonic sense refers to both the origin and the practices of a purportedly Masonic body. To what body does Karen belong? How was it formed? Is it recognized by any truly regular Masonic body? What are its specific practices? Under the rules of MY Grand Lodge, it is not and can never be regular as it allows women to be members. It may indeed be a wonderful organization and she may indeed be a wonderful person, but she is not and will never be a "Brother" or a "regular" Mason.



I think "Brother" is a title. For most of us, it means a male Freemason, regularly initiated into Freemasonry but that is not the sole use of the word in a masonic sense, but many other groups have a different definition.. Karen is a member of The Honorable Order of American Co-Masonry. Her body is not the only one which applies the title to woman; for instance,  so does the _Honourable _Fraternity of Ancient _Freemasons_ (HFAF). Used by such groups, I think "Brother" is a bit like "All men have equal rights" - men being not gender specific.

I think Karen makes the point "Regularity" is a subjective term. She made it so well as to get a prize from a group associated with UGLE.

Make make no mistake, I am a BIG believer of regular Freemasonry  (as we define it) being a Fraternity and hence being male only. However that does not mean the traditions of groups like Co-Freemasonry and HFAF are invalid and I have certainly learned a lot from members from such groups. I respect them. I think the HFAF is not a fraternity, but a sorority, but many such organizations which we regard as "irregular" have rich traditions and whose members share many of our ideals and are just as passionate about their masonic bodies as we are about ours. Many of their members are more "masonic" in their conduct and attitudes that some of the brethren in my lodges.. I respect that. Just as I respect your right to your opinion Bill, even though I don't subscibe to it; that's one of the beauties of Freemasonry, it looks to what unites men, rather than what divides them.


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## Glen Cook

JJones said:


> What if I go to the zoo and paint black and white stripes on a horse?...



How many times have we told you to stop doing that?


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## Glen Cook

Elexir said:


> Sorry but this annoys me a bit for some personal reasons.
> 
> So you mean that a person who has undergone a full transition, has a male name, looks male and is considerd a man by most people would not be welcomed as a brother?


Some would find the exclusion of non-Christians to be annoying. 

Depending on the jurisdiction, yes, one must be born male and identify as male.


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## David612

I believe as a mason it's our obligation to abide by the laws of our lands, in my country and many countries it's possible for men to transition to women and vise versa and legally be recognised as such.
Much like the requirement for belief in god, it's your word that you are a person suitable for membership in a fraternity. 
Just my 2c


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## CLewey44

I can't remember, do most petitions say _born_ a male or man or boy or whatever? Just curious. If so, that sort of nips this in the bud. If it just says you must be a man or something like that, then really, you'd probably never even know the difference lol. If that person identifies as a man and you don't know the difference, perception is reality.


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## coachn

Bill Lins said:


> Hogwash.


Yet one more Craft fundraising option... 


Bill Lins said:


> To begin with, the word "brother" BY DEFINITION refers exclusively to those of the male gender/sex.


If you seriously studied the trivium, you'd have learned well 1) that words take their meanings within context, 2) that definitions are not universal, and 3) that meanings are specific to their assigned application.  Your definition argument is weak.


Bill Lins said:


> Even if a woman undergoes sex reassignment surgery/treatment, she cannot EVER become a "Brother".


Unless, of course, it were to do with a title and not a gender agenda.


Bill Lins said:


> Likewise, anyone with the most basic understanding of the Latin language knows that the word "fraternity" BY DEFINITION refers exclusively to a group of males.


See dismissals two responses up in this epistle.


Bill Lins said:


> Secondly, "regularity" in the Masonic sense refers to both the origin and the practices of a purportedly Masonic body.


Ah!  If only that were true.


Bill Lins said:


> To what body does Karen belong? How was it formed? Is it recognized by any truly regular Masonic body? What are its specific practices?


1) doesn't matter.  2) doesn't matter.  3) doesn't matter.  4) doesn't matter.


Bill Lins said:


> Under the rules of MY Grand Lodge, it is not and can never be regular as it allows women to be members.


Fortunately for them, that doesn't matter.


Bill Lins said:


> It may indeed be a wonderful organization and she may indeed be a wonderful person, but she is not and will never be a "Brother" or a "regular" Mason.


Fortunately for them, your opinion doesn't matter either.


JJones said:


> What if I go to the zoo and paint black and white stripes on a horse? Does that make is a zebra? What if most of the zoo visitors consider it a zebra because it looks as acts like one?


You're mixing apples with orangutans.  A title assigned within any one organization reflects "membership status and/or office" and not state of being.


Bloke said:


> I think "Brother" is a title.


Yep.


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## Glen Cook

David612 said:


> I believe as a mason it's our obligation to abide by the laws of our lands, in my country and many countries it's possible for men to transition to women and vise versa and legally be recognised as such.
> Much like the requirement for belief in god, it's your word that you are a person suitable for membership in a fraternity.
> Just my 2c


The implication being that exclusion of the transgender violates the law?  As a private  Association we are allowed to discriminate on any number of bases: gender, religious belief, criminal history. 

 We may rely upon a statement of belief, but in other prerequisites, we may require proof, such as a criminal history in some jurisdictions. Indeed, so doubting are we of a person's word, most jurisdictions require him to be recommended. Some require additional references.


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## Glen Cook

> ..
> Fortunately for them, that (opinion as to regularity) doesn't matter..



Well, but it does for co-Masons, or at least many comasons have stated so repeatedly and at length, including in this thread.


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## Warrior1256

Bill Lins said:


> Under the rules of MY Grand Lodge, it is not and can never be regular as it allows women to be members. It may indeed be a wonderful organization and she may indeed be a wonderful person, but she is not and will never be a "Brother" or a "regular" Mason.


Yep.


Ripcord22A said:


> This one I'd have to say no on. Being gay is one thing but once a woman always a woman.


Same here.


JJones said:


> What if I go to the zoo and paint black and white stripes on a horse? Does that make is a zebra? What if most of the zoo visitors consider it a zebra because it looks as acts like one?


Good point.


Glen Cook said:


> How many times have we told you to stop doing that?


***snicker snicker***


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## Bloke

Glen Cook said:


> The implication being that exclusion of the transgender violates the law?  As a private  Association we are allowed to discriminate on any number of bases: gender, religious belief, criminal history....



That aside, there issue of disclosure....


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## JJones

Glen Cook said:


> How many times have we told you to stop doing that?



Sorry, you guys know how much I like to horse around.


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## Ripcord22A

@coachn i believe @JJones was refering to the tranny issue and not regularity

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## coachn

> Bill Lins said: ↑
> Under the rules of MY Grand Lodge, it *(co-masons)* is not and can never be regular as it allows women to be members.
> 
> 
> 
> Coach said:
> Fortunately for them *(co-masons), *that *(regularity opinion of your GL) *doesn't matter.
Click to expand...




Glen Cook said:


> Well, but it *(the opinion of his GL) * does for co-Masons, or at least many comasons have stated so repeatedly and at length, including in this thread.


I did not get this from the posts on this thread.

What I did get is that the opinion of any other Grand Lodge as to co-mason regularity doesn't matter since it is only the regularity of the co-mason Grand Lodge that matters to the co-mason GL.  As it should.


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## David612

We will have to agree to disagree on this gents.


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## Ripcord22A

David612 said:


> We will have to agree to disagree on this gents.


Which parts?

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## Bloke

coachn said:


> What I did get is that the opinion of any other Grand Lodge as to co-mason regularity doesn't matter since it is only the regularity of the co-mason Grand Lodge that matters to the co-mason GL.  As it should.



EXACTLY COACH !

This is why I thought Karen's essay won the prestigious prize it did, because it explains that. The prize was sponsored by the (very "regular"!) United Grand Lodge of England's Pro-Grand Master, Lord Northampton.

 It made me understand "regularity" with a clarity i did not have before Bro Karen gave me some schooling.

"Regularity" is like club rules. What is acceptable in one club is not acceptable in another.  

Mainstream "Regular" Freemasons sometimes carry on about what happens in clubs they will never visit, have a shared heritage with, and the ironically often wish us well (and will receive us as visitors though we can't visit because of our own rules).... Frankly many regular Freemasons vilify and persecute other Freemasons, because they're not in the same club. It often feels akin to Christian persecuting Christian because they're different denominations.

If you want to understand the concept of regularity - read Bro Karen's article without getting hung up on her gender or title. Regularity is the product of each Soveign GL much like law is the product of each Sovereign Nation State. What's legal in one state can be illegal in  another and as Freemasonry instructs it's members to abide by the Law of the State in which they reside, so should we abide by the Law of our own GL's.


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## David612

Ripcord22A said:


> Which parts?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


About the merit of transgender males in masonry.
Personally I feel that if they have gone through everything required to be recognised as a male and live as such that's good enough for me, but I understand that others don't feel that way.


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## Glen Cook

JJones said:


> Sorry, you guys know how much I like to horse around.


Neigh. You mustn't.


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## Bill Lins

coachn said:


> words take their meanings within context


The context within which I was commenting was clear- "Under the rules of MY Grand Lodge".


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## coachn

The thread went like this...


> Bloke said: ↑
> Years ago I was on another boards with Bro Karen. She gave me a much better understanding of regularity. It's wonderfully short, and if you have not read it before (and I am sure many of you would have) read her "I am Regular" essay http://beacon190.ca/2017/02/11/i-am-regular/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Lins said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...To begin with, the word "brother" BY DEFINITION refers exclusively to those of the male gender/sex. ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> coachn said: ↑
> If you seriously studied the trivium, you'd have learned well 1) that *words take their meanings within context*, 2) that definitions are not universal, and 3) that meanings are specific to their assigned application. Your definition argument is weak.
> 
> 
> Bill Lins said:
> 
> 
> 
> The context within which I was commenting was clear- "Under the rules of MY Grand Lodge".
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Not really.  What is clear is that you are trying to re-associate your comment:


> Bill Lins said: ↑
> Under the rules of MY Grand Lodge, it is not and can never be regular as it allows women to be members.


By taking my words "*out of context".  *The posted string does not lie.

What I wrote has everything to do with *"the context to which"* you were arguing "*BY DEFINITION*", and not to what came far later in your post about "_*Under the rules of MY Grand Lodge*_".

Your protestation is weak.  Your argument is weaker.


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## MasterBulldawg

David612 said:


> About the merit of transgender males in masonry.



Woman may go through the transgender process but she can not change her DNA or her skeleton. So she can change her outward appearance and live and act as a male but she will never truly be a male.




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## MasterBulldawg




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## David612

MasterBulldawg said:


> Woman may go through the transgender process but she can not change her DNA or her skeleton. So she can change her outward appearance and live and act as a male but she will never truly be a male.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


As I said befor I'm happy to drop the subject but I'll bite, do you often find your male skeleton or DNA to be a significant advantage in freemasonry, since the state will legally recognise them as male and it makes no difference to me I'm not concerned, if it's an issue for you then that's something you should reflect on and educate yourself on. The number of young transgender people killing themselves or being beaten to death in the streets in other countries is sickening.

I don't think this forum is for me.


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## Warrior1256

David612 said:


> I don't think this forum is for me.


Simply because some disagree with your point of view?


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## MasterBulldawg

David612 said:


> As I said befor I'm happy to drop the subject but I'll bite, do you often find your male skeleton or DNA to be a significant advantage in freemasonry, since the state will legally recognise them as male and it makes no difference to me I'm not concerned, if it's an issue for you then that's something you should reflect on and educate yourself on. The number of young transgender people killing themselves or being beaten to death in the streets in other countries is sickening.
> 
> I don't think this forum is for me.



1. I am not bashing or making fun anyone. Just stating fact.

2.  I believe it's about  less than 1%  of the total population in the USA and I am not sure out of that 1% how many is transgender males or transgender males that is interested in joining Freemasony. So I don't think Freemasony will huge rush of transgender male petitioning.

3.  My DNA and Skeleton is what makes me biologically male which is i believe a requirement in 99% of the MS GLs(no sure about France) to even petition. 

4. I am live and let live kind of guy so that's why i think that unless a MS GL petition specifically asks about being a bio. male or transgender male then it should be left to local lodges and the craft of the Grand Lodges.

I have said on other issues: I believe that local lodges and the craft of the Grand Lodges should be the keeper of the West Gate. We as a fraternity should look for quality over quantity.

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## Ripcord22A

David612 said:


> The number of young transgender people killing tthemselves
> .


and that number doesn't change post transition....leading me to believe that"feeling" like a lady or a man isn't the real issue and that there is a more serious mental condition that needs treating.



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## Bloke

David612 said:


> ...I don't think this forum is for me.



It's just  a discussion Brother.

I think any reasonable person will agree that people suffering for their sexual interest in other adults or being beaten for their general identify is wrong. However, we're not really taking about that...


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## Bloke

coachn said:


> ....If you seriously studied the trivium, you'd have learned well 1) that words take their meanings within context, 2) that definitions are not universal, and 3) that meanings are specific to their assigned application.....



When I first read the above I just accepted it because I agreed with it. That might be because its correct or it might be of my own cognitive bias...

Thinking on these three points  and putting Plato and his Caves aside, how they apply to a word like "truth"?

English is a lot less contextual than a language like Chinese, and generally i think in English we work towards a standard understanding of concepts conveyed with words, even those with multiple meanings like "sanguine" where context is key, or understand that communication through language relies on our ability to interpret what others are trying to convey based on shared understanding of the words we use.

What do you think Coach ?


----------



## MasterBulldawg

Bloke said:


> Years ago I was on another boards with Bro Karen. She gave me a much better understanding of regularity. It's wonderfully short, and if you have not read it before (and I am sure many of you would have) read her "I am Regular" essay http://beacon190.ca/2017/02/11/i-am-regular/
> 
> 
> I read her work from the link and it's seem to me she is saying if your organization follow the majority of the Masonic customs and rules then you can consider your organization regular. But I think that is not entirely correct. To me and I'm no expert on Freemasonry but to me it seems that it should be not only  customs and ritual work but also pedigree and recognition( by MS GL). Btw I am including PHA in the pedigree as they where originally chartered by the Grand Lodge of Ireland.   Just having customs and ritual work without recognition and pedigree means anyone that has the knowledge of the ritual work and the cash to buy the aprons and jewels could create their own Grand Lodge or Masonic body and claim it to be regular. Also I've noticed no one has brought up the fact that any of these other Masonic organizations do have very, very similar ritual work and customs then at some point someone had to have violated his obligation to share that knowledge. Using that knowledge that you got in a masonic sense illegally to start a new Masonic organization to me invalidates it's claim to be regular. As to the title of brother I believe it is a title but also a gender-specific title. I believe when you bring in the other sex you are changing the very dynamic of a gender specific organizations weather Boys Scouts or Girl Scouts. Just like when women first got elected the Congress it went from congressman to either Congressman or congresswoman depending on the sex of the person that elected. I believe that Co masonry and all female Masonry unless they have the pedigree and recognition and their ritual work is found to be similar and accepted enough to our own is clandestine at the most an irregular at the least. Only in a very abstract way is co Masonry and all female Masonry regular in that they, along with mainstream Masonry are both based on operative Masonry.
> 
> Disclaimer: I am no expert on Freemasonry and is based on my limited knowledge and research and is my personal opinion and does not reflect the view of my Grand Lodge or my local Lodge
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Blake Bowden

This topic has been beat to death and I believe everyone who wanted to chime in has. Thread closed.


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