# Clandestine Mason as Provincial Grand Master??



## bupton52 (Feb 25, 2014)

I just heard that a man, who is the Past Grand Master of a clandestine Grand Lodge in the Texas, named Weston Jarvis is the "first black J. G. Jones to become a recognized member and position holder of UGLE" When and how did this happen? There was also talk suggesting that he is a "recognized Past Provincial Grand Master of London the East Lancashire District" and the "first black John G. Jones Freemason to be recognized as a Grand Master in the history of the UGLE". Does anyone have any information on this?


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## Mike Martin (Feb 25, 2014)

I'm sorry but the language used in your post makes no sense to an English Freemason.

Can you point me to the source of your informaion so that I can see what is actually being claimed?


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## bupton52 (Feb 25, 2014)

Mike Martin said:


> I'm sorry but the language used in your post makes no sense to an English Freemason.
> 
> Can you point me to the source of your information so that I can see what is actually being claimed?



I apologize. The information that I spoke about was a direct quote taken from a member of a clandestine organization in my city (Houston, TX). Weston Jarvis is the Past Grand Master of that organization. They have been circulating information to their members that he (Weston) is not only the "recognized Past Provincial Grand Master of the London East Lancashire District" , but has in some way, by someone, been recognized as a Grand Master. The reference to John G. Jones is due to their type of masonry being connected to a man that was expelled from a legitimate Prince Hall jurisdiction and decided to start his own thing. I hope that clears things up a bit.


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## Mike Martin (Feb 25, 2014)

Hmm, in the hope of being helpful I submit the following:

 "first black J. G. Jones to become a recognized member and position holder of UGLE"  there are and have been thousands of non-white members of the UGLE both here in England and Wales and obviously in our District Grand Lodges around the world.

"suggesting that he is a "recognized Past Provincial Grand Master of London the East Lancashire District"  There is no such term or rank under the UGLE. I can give you a fuller explanation of why if you need it.

"first black John G. Jones Freemason to be recognized as a Grand Master in the history of the UGLE". I am able to confirm that there has not (yet) been a black Grand Master, however, there have been many black, asian and hispanic District Grand Masters.


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## dfreybur (Feb 25, 2014)

Those who charter clandestine jurisdictions know they are making stuff up.  By the time a man is a PGM in such a jurisdiction he definitely knows its status and history.  Why should he not be above making more stuff up ...


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## bupton52 (Feb 25, 2014)

Mike Martin said:


> Hmm, in the hope of being helpful I submit the following:
> 
> "first black J. G. Jones to become a recognized member and position holder of UGLE"  there are and have been thousands of non-white members of the UGLE btoh here in England and wales and obviously in our District Grand Lodges around the world.
> "suggesting that he is a "recognized Past Provincial Grand Master of London the East Lancashire District"  There is no such term or rank under the UGLE. I can give you a fuller explanation of why if you need it.
> "first black John G. Jones Freemason to be recognized as a Grand Master in the history of the UGLE". I am able to confirm that there has not (yet) been a black Grand Master, however, there have been many black, asian and hispanic District Grand Masters.



"first black J. G. Jones to become a recognized member and position holder of UGLE" there are and have been thousands of non-white members of the UGLE btoh here in England and wales and obviously in our District Grand Lodges around the world. - I understand that the UGLE membership is diverse, but my question is really if the UGLE has placed a member of a body that it does not recognize as a "position holder" within it's ranks.

"suggesting that he is a "recognized Past Provincial Grand Master of London the East Lancashire District" There is no such term or rank under the UGLE. I can give you a fuller explanation of why if you need it. - For the purpose of passing complete and accurate information along, I would like some additional explanation, if you don't mind.

"first black John G. Jones Freemason to be recognized as a Grand Master in the history of the UGLE". I am able to confirm that there has not (yet) been a black Grand Master, however, there have been many black, asian and hispanic District Grand Masters - I believe that he is referring to recognition that he is a GM over here in the U.S. He isn't saying that he is a GM in the UK. I know this is very confusing, but it is an epidemic that various Prince Hall jurisdictions deal with everyday.


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## Mike Martin (Feb 25, 2014)

Oh yes and there is no Weston Jarvis on the register of members of Lodges under the UGLE.

I suspect that whoever, is spreading the rumour doesn't understand that the "Masonic High Council" was a clandestine body started in England in 2005 which has absiolutely nothing to do with the UGLE other than one of its founders (Rui Gabirro) was an expelled Mason: http://www.rgle.org.uk/18_NEWSLETTER_MHC_JULY_2007.pdf


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## Mike Martin (Feb 25, 2014)

bupton52 said:


> "first black J. G. Jones to become a recognized member and position holder of UGLE" there are and have been thousands of non-white members of the UGLE btoh here in England and wales and obviously in our District Grand Lodges around the world. - I understand that the UGLE membership is diverse, but my question is really if the UGLE has placed a member of a body that it does not recognize as a "position holder" within it's ranks.
> 
> "suggesting that he is a "recognized Past Provincial Grand Master of London the East Lancashire District" There is no such term or rank under the UGLE. I can give you a fuller explanation of why if you need it. - For the purpose of passing complete and accurate information along, I would like some additional explanation, if you don't mind.
> 
> "first black John G. Jones Freemason to be recognized as a Grand Master in the history of the UGLE". I am able to confirm that there has not (yet) been a black Grand Master, however, there have been many black, asian and hispanic District Grand Masters - I believe that he is referring to recognition that he is a GM over here in the U.S. He isn't saying that he is a GM in the UK. I know this is very confusing, but it is an epidemic that various Prince Hall jurisdictions deal with everyday.



The first one is covered in my post above, if he isn't a UGLE Freemason he cannot be an "anything" under the UGLE. 

The second is a contradiction of places and Ranks. No one can be a Provincial Grand anything in the Metropolitan Grand Lodge of London, we are Metropolitan Grand whatevers. East Lancashire is a Provincial Grand Lodge that has no link to the Metropolitan Grand Lodge of London other than being a different part of the UGLE family. UGLE District Grand Lodges are ONLY overseas.

The third one is simple the UGLE does not recognise people or Lodges overseas it only recognises Grand Lodges so unless he is the GM of either the GL of Texas or the Prince Hall GL of Texas & Jurisdictions (the two Texas GLs recognised by us)  he receives no recognition from the UGLE whatsoever.


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## bupton52 (Feb 25, 2014)

Mike Martin said:


> The first one is covered in my post above, if he isn't a UGLE Freemason he cannot be an "anything" under the UGLE.
> 
> The second is a contradiction of places and Ranks. No one can be a Provincial Grand anything in the Metropolitan Grand Lodge of London, we are Metropolitan Grand whatevers. East Lancashire is a Provincial Grand Lodge that has no link to the Metropolitan Grand Lodge of London other than being a different part of the UGLE family. UGLE District Grand Lodges are ONLY overseas.
> 
> The third one is simple the UGLE does not recognise people or Lodges overseas it only recognises Grand Lodges so unless he is the GM of either the GL of Texas or the Prince Hall GL of Texas & Jurisdictions (the two Texas GLs recognised by us)  he receives no recognition from the UGLE whatsoever.



I appreciate your time and information Brother Martin. I will be sure to let this gentleman know that he certainly shouldn't believe everything that he hears.


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## Mike Martin (Feb 25, 2014)

Happy to help.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 25, 2014)

This reminds me a lot of all those Vagante churches in the USA who like to call themselves "Orthodox" but have no actual connection to either the Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox communions. They are prone to inventing untraceable lineages and giving each other "recognition".


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