# Knights of columbus?



## JMartinez (Feb 13, 2015)

Any brethren members of the KoC? Do the KoC let masons join? Do you get any hassle for being a mason? Can you still be excommunicated for being a mason? I hope I'm not the only catholic mason.


----------



## MarkR (Feb 14, 2015)

You're definitely not the only Catholic Mason.  I know plenty.  I've known of men who were both KoC and Masons, but I don't know if their KoC knew about it.  The last statement from Rome is that Catholics who are Masons are in a state of "grave sin" and should not receive communion, but American bishops have generally been "not noticing" Masons in their parishes.


----------



## Bill Lins (Feb 14, 2015)

KCs in our area will not knowingly allow Masons to belong to their organization.


----------



## JMartinez (Feb 14, 2015)

There must be brothers who are both.


----------



## Morris (Feb 14, 2015)

JMartinez said:


> There must be brothers who are both.


See bro mark's post.


----------



## JMartinez (Feb 14, 2015)

I was hoping for responses from brethren who are both, and can offer light


----------



## JMartinez (Feb 15, 2015)

I guess my question should be, do catholic masons feel "singled out"?


----------



## JMartinez (Feb 15, 2015)

As a Catholic Mason, I constantly find myself looking for the definitive answer from the Church regarding Masonry, and realize either they're out of date, unspoken of, or still welcomed depending on who you ask.
However, my question is not in regards to that, but rather joining the Catholic fraternity Knights of Columbus. I would love to be more involved with my faith and feel this would be an excellent way, however I am not familiar with whether or not they expressly forbid Masons into the group. I know some plural Mason/Knights exist, but whether they did not disclose their membership or did and were still accepted, I'm not sure.
Before I walk over to the KoC sub reddit and ask, I was wondering if anyone here was a member, or possibly knew the answer on being allowed in.
I certainly don't want to hold back my Masonic ties as I'm very proud of them, but I withhold my Mason affiliations from the Church at-large for obvious, centuries old and out of date reasons and don't want to start a potential nightmare by a simple question.


----------



## dfreybur (Feb 17, 2015)

JMartinez said:


> ... or possibly knew the answer on being allowed in ...



It depends on local clergy so there is no general answer.  And it's not just that the answer varies by parish.  It varies by which priest happens to be in charge at the parish.  Different place, might be different answer.  Different time, might be different answer.

I know brother Masons who are in the KofC in suburban Chicago without a blink.  I know brother Masons who are int he KofC in suburban Los Angeles who were encouraged but not required to resign from Masonry.  But we could look again a decade later and in either case the answer might change.


----------



## Flatworlder (Feb 18, 2015)

I do know of a story of a fellow brother taking classes to be baptized as Catholic only to be turned away during the beginning of the class. During the registration for this class my fellow brother wore his masonic ring, and the receptionist noticed it. She had kept quiet and wrote to the Archdioceses and put in a request to cut him from this class or any other future class.
 Im still at a loss for why the animosity towards our fraternity? 
Might I add I was brought up as a Catholic.. And I have found that I am more at home within my Lodge than at the closed cliques of the local church.. Which I am happy to say is fine with me.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Feb 18, 2015)

Flatworlder said:


> Im still at a loss for why the animosity towards our fraternity?


Fundamentalism is the belief that any idea that is different from mine is evil.


----------



## JMartinez (Feb 18, 2015)

Brethren, I have contacted the Knights of Columbus  via their web site, this is their response:
A potential applicant or current member’s membership in a social group such as the Elks does not automatically disqualify their membership in the Knights of Columbus.  However, since questions such as this may deal with a person’s Catholicity and standing in the Roman Catholic Church, it is advised that you consult with your parish priest for his opinion.
In regard to a potential applicant or current member who is associated with the Masons, there is often confusion as to whether or not he qualifies for membership. As a result, our legal department has issued the following response concerning this matter: 

The question here is *NOT* whether one can be a Knight of Columbus and a Mason.  The question is whether one can be a Catholic in union with the Holy See and at the same time be enrolled in a Masonic Association.  The question of whether or not a member or candidate for membership is a Catholic in union with the Holy See is a pastoral question that is properly directed to local chaplains, pastors, and bishops.  Candidates for membership in the Knights of Columbus known to be members of Masonic Associations should be presented with copies of the Church's teaching and must resign their membership in such Masonic Associations before being admitted to membership in the Knights of Columbus.   

The fact is that many Catholics are unaware of the Church's constant teaching prohibiting a Catholic's enrollment in a Masonic Association.   When a Catholic has a question regarding his or another's enrollment in a Masonic Association, the first thing to determine is whether that person is in fact enrolled in a Masonic Association. This determination should be made through a private and confidential conversation with the person in question.  This conversation should be non-argumentative and non-confrontational.  The purpose of the meeting is simply to confirm whether the member is enrolled in a Masonic Association and to determine whether the member is aware of the Church's teaching.  When addressing the Church's teaching during this conversation, the first point of reference should be hard copies of the Church's most recent definitive statements on the issue.  Please find attached copies of these statements which are as follows: 

(1)  DECLARATION ON MASONIC ASSOCIATIONS, issued by the CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH in 1983  
(available at http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...aith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html );  and  

(2)  "Irreconcilability between Christian faith and Freemasonry," an article in _ L'Osservatore Romano _dated March 11, 1985  
(available at http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...19850223_declaration-masonic_articolo_en.html)  
Prayerful study of these two statements should be encouraged, as they provide Catholics with solid guidance on how to "think with the Church" when considering a Catholic's enrollment in a Masonic Association.  A Catholic being presented with these statements must be given adequate time to prayerfully consider the Church's teaching and to seek spiritual direction from his pastor in the context of his personal faith formation.  If, after full fraternal and pastoral counseling and the passage of a reasonable period of time in which to prayerfully consider the Church's teaching, a member of the Knights of Columbus declines to resign from the Knights of Columbus or the Masonic Association, then the matter *shall be referred to the State Deputy for final resolution*.  After consulting with the State Chaplain, the State Deputy may take appropriate action, up to and including summary suspension of the member.


----------



## Morris (Feb 18, 2015)

Q: am I living in sin being a mason?
A: let me check with the legal department

Sorry, first thoughts when I read legal department. Haha


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Feb 18, 2015)

JMartinez said:


> they provide Catholics with solid guidance on how to "think with the Church"


So as long as I don't "think for myself" I should be golden.


----------



## LRG (Feb 18, 2015)

I am currently both. I got active with a church again,  being raised catholic. I was asked to resign from the lodge and show proof. 
I went through all 4 degrees, nothing hit home what so ever. I would've fulfilled my wanting by joining the alter boy service again. The meetings were pretty much dinner with segregation. Being a Master Mason and attending dinner with your brothers is like no other fraternal order or sometimes paternal.  Ask yourself this, out of all that you have been apart of ,Masonic, have you ever been apart of evil? So where in flies pestering in cow patties does the holy Catholic Church get the right to claim that masonry is evil? To me the KoC was a huge waste of time and money and once again I'm catholic, but I have realized that believing and loving Jesus Christ does not come from being catholic, nor being a Mason. It comes from your faith being well founded your uprightness in conduct through those many stations in life. It is no ones business what you do or who you are. Not of religion my brother,  but of faith. But of faith, which charitable organization helps so many children?  Vs religion, which religious order does so much for our children? Also, the koc is all about selling you and your family life insurance. Hope this helps


----------



## LRG (Feb 18, 2015)

Flatworlder said:


> I do know of a story of a fellow brother taking classes to be baptized as Catholic only to be turned away during the beginning of the class. During the registration for this class my fellow brother wore his masonic ring, and the receptionist noticed it. She had kept quiet and wrote to the Archdioceses and put in a request to cut him from this class or any other future class.
> Im still at a loss for why the animosity towards our fraternity?
> Might I add I was brought up as a Catholic.. And I have found that I am more at home within my Lodge than at the closed cliques of the local church.. Which I am happy to say is fine with me.


They are then at fault. No one has the right to deny those seeking in our Lord Jesus Christ


----------



## Texan92 (Feb 19, 2015)

This is what happens when one does not remember their history, or should I say swept it under the rug.  Research why the Catholic Church has denounced Masons.  What or whom had the influence and why, the answer may surprise you.


----------



## Flatworlder (Feb 19, 2015)

Texan92 said:


> This is what happens when one does not remember their history, or should I say swept it under the rug.  Research why the Catholic Church has denounced Masons.  What or whom had the influence and why, the answer may surprise you.


I do know the History... and I am still reading more.. and the majority of this information does make me question certain things..Thats all I will say now, I don't want to stir up controversy.


----------



## Brother_Steve (Feb 20, 2015)

LRG said:


> They are then at fault. No one has the right to deny those seeking in our Lord Jesus Christ


The catholic church for all intents and purposes is a corporation. If you want to be a member of their club you need to play by their rules.


----------



## Flatworlder (Feb 20, 2015)

This is certainly a very deep subject.


----------



## Ghost (Feb 20, 2015)

Very interesting. This is why I have my reservations about the church and their politics.


----------



## Ripcord22A (Feb 22, 2015)

No offense to brother here but how could anyone want to be a member of Catholic church? Think with the church?  Are you kidding me?  And while I'm on the subject the Pope is supposed to be God's representative on Earth right?  Chosen by God?  Then why is there an election? And why is it not unanimous evertime?


----------



## JMartinez (Feb 22, 2015)

Those questions have ignorance all over them. It's called FAITH for a reason. You would think a Mason of all people would be wise enough not to shun or dismiss other peoples beliefs!


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Feb 22, 2015)

Churches, Grand Lodges, and people in general have a tendency to allow their thinking to devolve into fundamentalism.  Perhaps when this happens we should be careful to rally against the the thinking and not the institution or person.


----------



## Brother_Steve (Feb 23, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Could one say the same of Grand Lodges?


If I recall correctly, one of the furthermores has to deal with grand lodge unless I'm thinking of the oath an incoming master takes.

Either way, we can't join the club and then rail against the machine (within reason, anyway)

It's like moving next to an airport then suing them because you cannot sleep.


----------



## Ripcord22A (Feb 24, 2015)

JMartinez said:


> Those questions have ignorance all over them. It's called FAITH for a reason. You would think a Mason of all people would be wise enough not to shun or dismiss other peoples beliefs!


Im not shunning your religious beliefs.  If u wanted to say i was shunning anything it would be the church hierarchies.  Not the catholic faith itself.  But can u answer the question about the Pope?  Why is there an election and why is it not unanimous every time?  And why is the college of cardinals aloud to discuss who they will vote for?  That seems more like picking the chairman of a committee in congress then the spiritual leader who is said to be Gods personal representative on Earth......these are legitimate questions i have had for years and no catholic has ever been able to answer.


----------



## JMartinez (Feb 25, 2015)

The popes job is to interpret the bible, just as congress would interpret the constitution. As for the electoral process; in many ways it is no different then how masons elect a worshipful master, who we choose to represent the roll of King Solomon in his temple. We would hope the worshipful masters we elect possess some of Solomon's traits; understanding and wisdom. We hope the pope we elect possess hope, faith, and piety. Catholics believe the pope is infallible only in regards to faith.


----------



## dfreybur (Feb 27, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> A parallel could be made in Masonry: we will only make you a Mason if you swear only to deal with this particular GL.



As long as there's a mechanism to quit or to switch to another jurisdiction I don't get the objection.

My mother jurisdiction allows multiple affiliation and so I only petition other jurisdictions that also allow multiple affiliations.  I'm now a member in 3 jurisdictions.  I could resign from the others I just chose not to.  The result is I'm bound by the most restrictive combination of the rules of all 3 to the extent that any difference in rules come to my knowledge.  Most of the rules are similar in general and a lot only apply while in lodge at a jurisdiction so there aren't a lot of opportunities for conflicting rules.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Oct 22, 2015)

MarkR said:


> The last statement from Rome is that Catholics who are Masons are in a state of "grave sin" and should not receive communion, but American bishops have generally been "not noticing" Masons in their parishes.


I live in a condo and asked a priest who also lives here if I could join the Catholic Church being a Freemason. He told me it would be O.K.


----------



## MarkR (Oct 23, 2015)

Warrior1256 said:


> I live in a condo and asked a priest who also lives here if I could join the Catholic Church being a Freemason. He told me it would be O.K.


And the Vatican says this isn't something that's up to parish priests.  Yes, I know that lots of American priests ignore it, but they're not supposed to.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Oct 23, 2015)

MarkR said:


> And the Vatican says this isn't something that's up to parish priests.  Yes, I know that lots of American priests ignore it, but they're not supposed to.


True.


----------



## drw72 (Oct 23, 2015)

Br. Martinez, et al…

I am a Catholic, former member of the KofC, and Past Grand Knight. I first joined when I was 18 and then dropped out when I joined the military. When I retired I decided to rejoin and start over. I was an active member until last year when I decided to join the Masons.

From my personal experience I can say that I whole heartedly agree with Br. Guerrero’s reply (#16). I have found the fraternity in Freemasonry much more genuine and the degree work much more valuable.

But I am not here to criticize the KofC or any other fraternity so back to the question at hand.

“As a Catholic Mason, I constantly find myself looking for the definitive answer from the Church regarding Masonry”
Unfortunately I was looking for the same thing when I was deliberating joining the Masons. I found that there is no definitive answer as well as plenty of hypocrisy….read my post here (http://www.myfreemasonry.com/threads/does-freemasonry-accept-catholics.19977/page-3#post-149337)

According to the KofC.org website:
 What are the requirements?
 Membership in the Knights of Columbus is open to men 18 years of age or older who are practical (that is, practicing) Catholics in union with the Holy See.

What is a practical Catholic?
 A practical Catholic accepts the teaching authority of the Catholic Church on matters of faith and morals, aspires to live in accord with the precepts of the Catholic Church, and is in good standing in the Catholic Church.

So to me the plain and simple answer is (technically) you cannot be a KofC if you are a Mason. But as others have said some do get away with it due to the KofC not knowing of just ignoring it.

I took care of any equivocation or reservation in my mind by resigning from the KofC when I became a Mason.


----------



## Glen Cook (Oct 23, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> One of the difficulties in Australia at least is that the obligation required of the candidate is 3 fold: to the GAOTU, to the GL and to the lodge.  This is rather a surprise to many candidates, but if they do not swear allegiance to the GL then they cannot become Masons in that order.
> 
> In my case I had been in another Masonic order and sworn always to regard the initiating lodge as my mother lodge.  When I came into another craft order, I was initiated again and despite my previous swearing about my mother lodge was required to do so again for the new mother lodge.
> 
> ...


This is not an unusual obligation. 

I am unclear as to the manner in which you are using terms.  You indicate you were in another "Masonic order" and then you were "initiated" into another "craft order", each having a "mother lodge."  In my experience, there are not multiple orders within the craft.  In my experience, one is only initiated into a craft lodge one time, unless one has been a clandestine Mason.  I am aware of no Masonic order which declares it to be your "mother lodge" in lieu of your craft lodge.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Oct 23, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> I am aware of no Masonic order which declares it to be your "mother lodge" in lieu of your craft lodge.


Same here.


----------



## Glen Cook (Oct 23, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Perhaps reading my post again might clarify the situation


No, it didn't. Would you care to do so?


----------



## Ripcord22A (Oct 23, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Perhaps reading my post again might clarify the situation


This dude is straight off his rocker 99.999999% of the time...has he ever told us where her hails from?


----------



## Glen Cook (Oct 23, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> This dude is straight off his rocker 99.999999% of the time...has he ever told us where her hails from?


From the post above, he alludes to Australia, but no, he has not directly stated so. At this point, as he has claimed to have taken obligations in different "orders" of the "craft" and has made claims inconsistent  with regular freemasonry, I suspect him to be a clandestine Mason, and shall treat him as such until I have satisfactory proof to the contrary.

And don't get me started on what I perceive as the blasphemous nature of his _nom de plume_


----------



## Warrior1256 (Oct 25, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> I suspect him to be a clandestine Mason, and shall treat him as such until I have satisfactory proof to the contrary.


Good advise that I shall also take.


----------



## Bloke (Nov 17, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> One of the difficulties in Australia at least is that the obligation required of the candidate is 3 fold: to the GAOTU, to the GL and to the lodge. .....In my case I had been in another Masonic order and sworn always to regard the initiating lodge as my mother lodge.  When I came into another craft order, I was initiated again and despite my previous swearing about my mother lodge was required to do so again for the new mother lodge.......So I was obliged to break a sworn obligation to be initiated in the later order.   Surely that made me void of all moral ...



In regular craft freemasonry there is no standard "australian ritual". It varys between GLs. I think we have about 6  regular UGLE recognized GL's here. I only know one UGLV and own more American rituals than Australian ones.... hmmmm.... i should change that..

Sounds like you swapped horses James...


----------

