# Where Have All The Masons Gone?



## Joe Ellis (Dec 20, 2017)

Where Have All The Masons Gone?

The United Grand Lodge of England confirmed that their membership numbers are now down to 200,000 from 500,000.

The drop of numbers is sad, no matter what Constitution or Grand Lodge that you follow. Saying this, I have today released a song 'Where Have All The Masons Gone? in the United Kingdom. Although based on an old folk song, it is a fun look back on a time when Freemasonry was very prominent within England. However, it could be the epitaph in years to come if Freemasonry does not change for the common good.

Lyrics are below for you and link to the song.

Let me me take this opportunity to wish you and your families a very Merry Christmas and I hope that 2018 brings health and happiness.

Song link:

https://soundcloud.com/nakmas/where-have-all-the-masons-gone

_Where have all the old masons gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the old masons gone? 
Long time ago
Where have all the old masons gone?
They've decided to resign every one
Oh, when will we ever learn?
Oh, when will we ever learn?_

_Where have all the masons gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the masons gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the masons gone?
They've decided to resign every one
Oh, when will we ever learn?
Oh, when will we ever learn?_

_Where have all the young masons gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young masons gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young masons gone?
Gone for genuine hobbies every one
Oh, when will we ever learn?
Oh, when will we ever learn?_

_Where have all the lodges gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the lodges gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the lodges gone?
Gone to graveyards every one
Oh, when will we ever learn?
Oh, when will we ever learn?_

_Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Covered with lodge warrants every one
Oh, when will we ever learn?
Oh, when will we ever learn?_

_Where have all the Grand Lodges gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the Grand Lodges gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the Grand Lodges gone?
Gone to the Great Architect above every one
Oh, why didn't they ever learn?
Oh, why didn't they ever learn?_

Sung by Toby Wilson
Written by Pete Seeger
Lyric Adaption by Joe Ellis


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## coachn (Dec 21, 2017)

The Masons have learned what they could from Freemasonry, Packed their bags and Traveled to more nurturing lands.
The Freemasonic non-masons are still hanging around.

(Nice adaption!)


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## Howard Giang (Dec 21, 2017)

Joe Ellis said:


> Where Have All The Masons Gone?
> 
> The United Grand Lodge of England confirmed that their membership numbers are now down to 200,000 from 500,000.


Is this a coincident or what? United Grand Lodge of America might have also confirmed in the past many decades that their memberships members were up over 1,000,000. That may have answered your question that there is a possibility that most of Freemasons are also moving to America.


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## coachn (Dec 21, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Is this a coincident or what? *United Grand Lodge of America* might have also confirmed in the past many decades that their memberships members were up over 1,000,000. That may have answered your question that there is a possibility that most of Freemasons are also moving to America.


United Grand Lodge of America?  What's that?


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## Howard Giang (Dec 21, 2017)

coachn said:


> United Grand Lodge of America?  What's that?


I don't know, but it sure sounds good though.


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## coachn (Dec 21, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Is this a coincident or what? United Grand Lodge of America might have also *confirmed in the past many decades that their memberships members were up over 1,000,000. *That may have answered your question that there is a possibility that most of Freemasons are also moving to America.



You might want to check your references.  Things are not getting better in the USA either : http://www.msana.com/msastats.asp


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## CLewey44 (Dec 21, 2017)

coachn said:


> You might want to check your references.  Things are not getting better in the USA either : http://www.msana.com/msastats.asp




I was going to say, I've never seen anything that resembled growth in regards to U.S. masonry. Especially under the 'United Grand Lodge of America'....


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## Howard Giang (Dec 21, 2017)

coachn said:


> You might want to check your references.  Things are not getting better in the USA either : http://www.msana.com/msastats.asp



Seriously Coach, giving that no recruiting/marketing is allowed, that statistics is pretty good in term of a business operates without a business marketing strategy. On another hand, I think the most damaging with the lacks of memberships that we are experiencing is directly affected from many external interventions to undermine and to make Freemason appears unappealing and liability, etc. 

Visually, even though various rumors or accusations may not be true. Without a strong objection from Masonry, to some people, it can perceive at least something is true.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 21, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> I was going to say, I've never seen anything that resembled growth in regards to U.S. masonry. Especially under the 'United Grand Lodge of America'....


I have not seen anything ever been lost especially under "United Grand Lodge of America" either.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 21, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> memberships that we are experiencing


BTW, just want to clarify. When I use the word "we," figuratively, I was referring to the Freemasons. I am not including myself. Just want to avoid any misunderstand because I am not a Freemason yet. It is because it just sounds good and flow from the English language and its proper usage.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 21, 2017)

Anyone has any reporting figure/information with regard to United Grand Lodge of U.S.A?


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## coachn (Dec 21, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Seriously Coach, *giving that no recruiting/marketing is allowed*, ...


You might want to check your references.  All those youtube videos you've watched don't tell the whole story.  In fact, they usually tell stories that have no basis in fact.  Marketing is allowed in some areas.  Recruiting in the form of letting someone know that they would make a good member is allowed in some areas. 


Howard Giang said:


> ...that statistics is pretty good in term of a business operates without a business marketing strategy.


These statistics are lousy even for an business without a marketing strategy, of which most freemasonic jurisdictions do have.


Howard Giang said:


> On another hand, I think the most damaging with the lacks of memberships that _*we*_ are experiencing is directly affected from many external interventions to undermine and to make Freemason appears unappealing and liability, etc.


According to your profile information, you are not a member.  Who is this "we" of which you speak so collectively and assuredly?


Howard Giang said:


> Visually, even though various rumors or accusations may not be true. Without a strong objection from Masonry, to some people, it can perceive at least something is true.


Are you familiar with the term "bulcrit"?  It's speaking authoritatively from second hand information.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 21, 2017)

coachn said:


> You might want to check your references.  All those youtube videos you've watched don't tell the whole story.  In fact, they usually tell stories that have no basis in fact.  Marketing is allowed in some areas.  Recruiting in the form of letting someone know that they would make a good member is allowed in some areas.
> 
> These statistics are lousy even for an business without a marketing strategy, of which most freemasonic jurisdictions do have.
> 
> ...



I think you misspelled the term, but I know what you meant. I am with you. Hopefully, one of these days, I could freely use the word "we"


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## Glen Cook (Dec 21, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Anyone has any reporting figure/information with regard to United Grand Lodge of U.S.A?


There is no legitimate organisation of this name. 
MSANA reports membership numbers from the individual states. 

Also, not all Grand Lodges  prohibit  solicitation and marketing.


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## coachn (Dec 21, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> I think you misspelled the term, but I know what you meant. I am with you. Hopefully, one of these days, I could freely use the word "we"


I merely reproduced the term as I had read it 30 years ago.  I share your hope.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 21, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> There is no legitimate organisation of this name.
> MSANA reports membership numbers from the individual states.
> 
> Also, not all Grand Lodges  prohibit  solicitation and marketing.


Thanks Glen, I was just put a positive spin on the membership decline. Both U.S. Grand Lodges and Canada Grand Lodges Memberships have negative gain since 1924 and decline as linear trend. Results are varied among states. It appears 1959, U.S. Grand Lodges have a gain. However, there is no detail summary of whether for not gaining more memberships to replace those resting Freemasons or Freemasons are no longer interested being affiliated with the Lodge. I don't know if the data trend was in a decline in recruiting for replacement or in a decline in keeping a Freemason stay active.

For example, you had 100 recruits this year, 60 members had new assignments with God, 50 active members left the Lodge for whatever the reason then you have a net gain of negative 10. Would you consider that it is bad? Correct me if I am wrong. Once a Mason is forever a Mason. Is that right even when an active member left the Lodge he still subject to his obligation to his brothers?


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## Howard Giang (Dec 21, 2017)

coachn said:


> I merely reproduced the term as I had read it 30 years ago.  I share your hope.


Thanks coach, would be happier if you would also share your smile.


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## coachn (Dec 21, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Thanks Glen, I was just put a positive spin on the membership decline. Both U.S. Grand Lodges and Canada Grand Lodges Memberships have negative gain since 1924 and decline as linear trend. Results are varied among states. It appears 1959, U.S. Grand Lodges have a gain. However, there is no detail summary of whether for not gaining more memberships to replace those resting Freemasons or Freemasons are no longer interested being affiliated with the Lodge. I don't know if the data trend was in a decline in recruiting for replacement or in a decline in keeping a Freemason stay active.
> 
> For example, you had 100 recruits this year, 60 members had new assignments with God, 50 active members left the Lodge for whatever the reason then you have a net gain of negative 10. Would you consider that it is bad? Correct me if I am wrong. Once a Mason is forever a Mason. Is that right even when an active member left the Lodge he still subject to his obligation to his brothers?


Are you reading the same data?


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## Howard Giang (Dec 21, 2017)

coachn said:


> Are you reading the same data?


I was looking at data from this website. http://www.msana.com/msastats.asp
U.S. Grand Lodges (Analysis & Evaluation)
year 1924  | 3,077,161 to year 2016  | 1,117,781    Peak at year 1959 | 4,103,161

1,959,380 memberships different within 52 years
rate = (3,077,161 - 1,117,781) / 3,077,161 = 63.67% change from 1924 to 2016

Average 36,284.814/year for all U.S. Grand Lodges

738.83/Lodge/year

I was using an example that I made up to explain the complexity of interpreting data. Here I give you another example that I made up. For example, there were 134 vehicle collisions last year with a total of 165 fatalities. This year, there were 67 vehicle collisions with at total of 273 fatalities. Now, this year, safety improvement collision reduction is 50% and that is impressive; however, at first, looking at the total fatalities, you would be alert that this year has a total 273 fatalities compare to 165 fatalities last year. You would think it is worse for this year than last year. However, when you analyze the data correctly, the reason more fatalities were because for environmental concern/awareness more people are carpooling. As a result, more people died per vehicle per collision instead of 1 person died per crash.

Is there another data source?


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## Glen Cook (Dec 21, 2017)

[QUOTE="Howard Giang, post: 188031, member: 20692"...

.... Once a Mason is forever a Mason. Is that right even when an active member left the Lodge he still subject to his obligation to his brothers?[/QUOTE]

No as to first question. Depends as to second


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## Howard Giang (Dec 21, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> [QUOTE="Howard Giang, post: 188031, member: 20692"...
> 
> .... Once a Mason is forever a Mason. Is that right even when an active member left the Lodge he still subject to his obligation to his brothers?



No as to first question. Depends as to second[/QUOTE]
Thanks Glen, since you said no to the first question. I tried to understand the reason why. For example, let’s look at all possible outcomes. The only scenario I could think of is that if a Freemason became an enemy to Freemasonry or committed crimes against another brother (s) and got expelled.
1) Even a Freemason betrays the Freemasonry, can he still refer to himself as an ex-Mason with a number of degrees that he had earned? 
2) With that, is there forgiveness or redemption in Freemasonry? Can a disgraced Freemason do something to earn forgiveness or get a second chance, or it depends on the nature of the crime? I was thinking of a court system with hearings and voting, etc. before expelling a brother out of fairness.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 21, 2017)

In US Masonry there is a disciplinary system, with rights and procedures varying with the jurisdiction.  The majority of jurisdictions do, indeed, have trials. Sanctions vary, from none, to reprimand, suspension,  and expulsion. I see no reason a person couldn’t note the degrees he held. There is also an appellate system. 

Many jurisdictions have a process to seek readmission. It is not unusual for the Grand Lodge to make this decision. 

Some jurisdictions also allow a member to renounce Freemasonry; to forfeit all rights and privileges and to even declaim the ability to re-petition.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 21, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> In US Masonry there is a disciplinary system, with rights and procedures varying with the jurisdiction.  The majority of jurisdictions do, indeed, have trials. Sanctions vary, from none, to reprimand, suspension,  and expulsion. I see no reason a person couldn’t note the degrees he held. There is also an appellate system.
> 
> Many jurisdictions have a process to seek readmission. It is not unusual for the Grand Lodge to make this decision.
> 
> Some jurisdictions also allow a member to renounce Freemasonry; to forfeit all rights and privileges and to even declaim the ability to re-petition.


Thanks very informative.


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## dfreybur (Dec 22, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Anyone has any reporting figure/information with regard to United Grand Lodge of U.S.A?



There's a legend of George Washington after the American Revolution.  He was offered to be Grand Master of a United Grand Lodge of America.  He declined.

There's also a legend of George Washington being offered the crown of king of the United States.  He declined.

I don't know if either legend is literally true.  One feature of legends or myths is they teach truth without needing to be literally true.  If you insist that a legend is literally true then that claim requires proof and makes the legend subject to disproof.  Often if it better to view the legend symbolically.  Events that should have happened perhaps.

Grand lodges in the United States became small republics like the countries in disunited Europe.  States in the United States became member republics in the federal system in a union.  Both systems sort of work most of the time but don't work all of the time.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 22, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> There's a legend of George Washington after the American Revolution.  He was offered to be Grand Master of a United Grand Lodge of America.  He declined.
> 
> There's also a legend of George Washington being offered the crown of king of the United States.  He declined.
> 
> ...


Thanks Duog for the information. When I referred to United Grand Lodge of America, I was thinking of all the Grand Lodges in America because so many of them 50+ to list and just to simply make a comparison between England and America, because I don't know much about them. I read any information available online.  I have not come across your information, so can I treat this as a secret knowledge and not to share with anyone?


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## acjohnson53 (Dec 27, 2017)

My personal opinion is that Lodges are not raising Men on a regular,. You lucky if you get two Raising in a year. I know in my Lodge we only did one raising in 2017. Not like when I was raised, we had at least three raising in one year, with one in the queue....I feel a Lodge that is productive will be a successful Lodge....


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## cemab4y (Jan 5, 2018)

I have been writing about the decline in membership numbers for many years. Most people did not want to believe, that Masonry has been losing members, and continues to lose members. Sad.


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## Joe Ellis (Jan 5, 2018)

cemab4y said:


> I have been writing about the decline in membership numbers for many years. Most people did not want to believe, that Masonry has been losing members, and continues to lose members. Sad.



Yes, I know what you mean, as I have been active within England during my UGLE, writing and speaking to senior UGLE grand officers, to no avail.

https://facebook.com/uniquefreemason


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## acjohnson53 (Jan 7, 2018)

I hate to say this a lot of Brothers stop going or not becoming interested in becoming because it's really not fun being a Mason. Some Brothers bicker with each other. In my case there is really no interest. Case in point my Lodge had elections last month, WM was installed, I can except that, But he probably don't know everybody  name, I know good in well he doesn't know mine and I am the assistant Treasurer. To be frankly I attend so I can get to that 33rd, to my understanding I don't have to be a Past Master but it look good, I have aleady reached the Sublime Degree of a Scottish Rite Mason....


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 8, 2018)

acjohnson53 said:


> I hate to say this a lot of Brothers stop going or not becoming interested in becoming because it's really not fun being a Mason. Some Brothers bicker with each other. In my case there is really no interest. Case in point my Lodge had elections last month, WM was installed, I can except that, But he probably don't know everybody  name, I know good in well he doesn't know mine and I am the assistant Treasurer. To be frankly I attend so I can get to that 33rd, to my understanding I don't have to be a Past Master but it look good, I have aleady reached the Sublime Degree of a Scottish Rite Mason....


So you attend lodge so you can achieve the 33° ? 

Sent from my LG-LS997 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## acjohnson53 (Jan 11, 2018)

one of my goals, yeah...


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## David612 (Jan 11, 2018)

acjohnson53 said:


> one of my goals, yeah...



Why is this a goal of yours?


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## acjohnson53 (Jan 11, 2018)

I'll achieve all I want in Masonry


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## Glen Cook (Jan 11, 2018)

acjohnson53 said:


> I'll achieve all I want in Masonry


Then, my young brother, there are lessons of Masonry you’ve yet to discover.

I’ve seen those whose goal in Masonry was a rank. They achieve that goal, and it is hollow. The rank doesn’t grasp the grieving  brother to its chest, it does not relieve the loneliness of age,  And, at the end, I am quite convinced that our Maker will not be impressed that we had that rank, but that we lived up to the obligations we made in his name.


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## David612 (Jan 11, 2018)

acjohnson53 said:


> I'll achieve all I want in Masonry


So you see the 33rd as a finish line?
Honestly, there are so many facets to masonry and in my perspective the titles and rankings are quite irrelevant if the Brothers mind isn’t pushing the boundaries of his understanding in his areas of study, hence I belive the Masonic lodge serves to stoke the fires of a brothers curiosity and offer him areas to study.
The degree work is beautiful and truely something to dedicate yourself to however it isn’t in my mind the true work of the lodge.

Not to say you arnt a learned brother of cause, I just have observed some brothers who’s focus is entirely on holding a glorious rank but leave so much value on the table to be found within the degree. While entirely off track this is why I find the one day class stuff to be sub optimal.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 12, 2018)

acjohnson53 said:


> I'll achieve all I want in Masonry



If deserving, I hope you achieve your goal.


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## dfreybur (Jan 12, 2018)

acjohnson53 said:


> I'll achieve all I want in Masonry



Notice the future tense.  Most excellent.  Achievement is the journey at least as much as it is the goal.

Once you have achieved what you currently want, there's always going to be the next step.


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## acjohnson53 (Jan 12, 2018)

i'm older than y'all think I am...


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## Glen Cook (Jan 12, 2018)

acjohnson53 said:


> i'm older than y'all think I am...


In the fraternity?


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## Bill Lins (Jan 12, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> I’ve seen those whose goal in Masonry was a rank.


We have more than our share of "title collectors".  


Glen Cook said:


> at the end, I am quite convinced that our Maker will not be impressed that we had that rank, but that we lived up to the obligations we made in his name.


Amen.


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## goomba (Jan 13, 2018)

I've come to adopt a belief that Freemasonry isn't dying, it's refining.  What we are currently seeing is the result of an illness.  However, instead of treating the infection most grand lodges and lodge are treating the symptoms and not the illness.  





https://www.amazon.com/Millennial-Apprentices-Next-Revolution-Freemasonry/dp/0996652809

The two links above are a good jump off point for looking into the illness.

Additionally, I believe to many lodges and GL's act as if they are an island.  Yes culture is different in California and Alabama and England and Brazil.  But looking outside of your lodge or dare I say outside of the lodge/grand lodge system just might have some valuable information.  But from what I've seen the number one resource not used by the lodge are its members.  If you have a 21 year old EA ask him questions.  As a matter of fact maybe ask members who have joined in the last 5 years questions.  We have the answers to our questions.

Lastly these three papers are priceless:
http://pictoumasons.org/library/Smith, Dwight L ~ WhitherAreWeTraveling [pdf].pdf
http://overseaslodge.com/images/PDFs/9_Why_This_Confusion.pdf
http://www.knightsofthenorth.com/documents/laudablepursuit.pdf


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## acjohnson53 (Jan 13, 2018)

I've been in the fraternity for quite sometime...


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## Glen Cook (Jan 13, 2018)

acjohnson53 said:


> I've been in the fraternity for quite sometime...


How long?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jan 25, 2018)

acjohnson53 said:


> one of my goals, yeah...


I noticed you are a member of a PHA GL as well as me. I am speaking from the brothers I have come into contact with in my jusdriction that hold the "title" 33. One thing to note and im not sure if your jusdriction is the same, but I was always told the 33° was something you earned and not purchased, but lately I have seen brothers after 3 or 4 years becoming a 33°. I finally asked one guy how he became one so fast and he said by paying money. Correct me brothers, is this a degree you earn for your service to Freemasonry or is it a degree you just pay in the thousands for just to say you are a 33° ? 

Sent from my LG-LS997 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## dfreybur (Jan 26, 2018)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I noticed you are a member of a PHA GL as well as me. I am speaking from the brothers I have come into contact with in my jusdriction that hold the "title" 33. One thing to note and im not sure if your jusdriction is the same, but I was always told the 33° was something you earned and not purchased, but lately I have seen brothers after 3 or 4 years becoming a 33°. I finally asked one guy how he became one so fast and he said by paying money. Correct me brothers, is this a degree you earn for your service to Freemasonry or is it a degree you just pay in the thousands for just to say you are a 33° ?



If you paid money to get to 33, that was definitely a clandestine order and a spurious degree.

The most eminent Mason I ever met said you get a white hat by working for 20 years in the kitchen or walking on the Moon.  He said he'd earned his working 20 years in the kitchen.  Yet he was by then a Past Grand Master in California so respected the Mason of the Year award from GLofCA is now named after him.


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