# Another step forward



## Bushi1971 (Mar 7, 2018)

At the beginning of February I stopped down to the local lodge to express my interest in becoming a Mason. Since I have been invited to 2 dinners at the lodge and last evening on the way on one of the brothers was speaking with me and asked what I thought. When I told him I was interested in joining they gave me a petition which I filled out during dinner. There was a bit of stone busting as to who I should get to sign my petition because I didn’t know anyone there. I was told my petition would be discussed last night and an investigative committee would be formed. They also invited me to keep going to the lodge for dinner during the process. 

Once I turned in my petition I really felt a taste of the brotherhood people speak about. I am looking forward to what’s next.


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## Symthrell (Mar 7, 2018)

Glad to read that you put your petition in. I am also glad to read that you experienced the brotherhood within the lodge. The first thing that comes to mind for me when speaking about Freemasonry is brotherhood. Keep us informed about how your petition goes and your journey in Freemasonry.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 9, 2018)

Good luck! Let us know how things progress.


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## Howard Giang (Mar 10, 2018)

Bushi1971 said:


> At the beginning of February I stopped down to the local lodge to express my interest in becoming a Mason. Since I have been invited to 2 dinners at the lodge and last evening on the way on one of the brothers was speaking with me and asked what I thought. When I told him I was interested in joining they gave me a petition which I filled out during dinner. There was a bit of stone busting as to who I should get to sign my petition because I didn’t know anyone there. I was told my petition would be discussed last night and an investigative committee would be formed. They also invited me to keep going to the lodge for dinner during the process.


Hi Bushi1971,
Basically, were you come to a Lodge before or after you were invited to dinner? Did you eventually get a future Brother to sign the petition for you? For me, I would like the person that signed my petition should also be my mentor. However, I prefer if the Lodge trust me, it should just start with the ritual first, and the other stuffs can be done later. The only thing that background check and further investigation is that the candidate name is known publicly. We have never done a background check on our politicians before we vote them because we trust them and their views and values are coincided with us.


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## Bloke (Mar 10, 2018)

Howard Giang said:


> Hi Bushi1971,
> Basically, were you come to a Lodge before or after you were invited to dinner? Did you eventually get a future Brother to sign the petition for you? For me, I would like the person that signed my petition should also be my mentor. However, I prefer if the Lodge trust me, it should just start with the ritual first, and the other stuffs can be done later. The only thing that background check and further investigation is that the candidate name is known publicly. We have never done a background check on our politicians before we vote them because we trust them and their views and values are coincided with us.


Howard, trust me, the media has dug through the background of the politicians you vote for before you voted.  You would not get a serious job and then, once employed, have an interview and if that works out, then supply your resume. You say you're an engineer - I would have thought you would have been more into process. Trust me, you're not going to put the cart before the horse when it some to becoming a Freemason, just accept it, and move through the process... or would you just like to do through third degree, and if that works out, try the first and second ? It's like saying you'd like a doctorate in maths, and if it works out, you're gonna learn your times tables.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 10, 2018)

Howard Giang said:


> However, I prefer if the Lodge trust me, it should just start with the ritual first, and the other stuffs can be done later.


Not in any lodge that dutifully guards the West Gate. This is ludicrous. 


Howard Giang said:


> The only thing that background check and further investigation is that the candidate name is known publicly.


Seriously?


Bloke said:


> Howard, trust me, the media has dug through the background of the politicians you vote for before you voted.


For sure.


Bloke said:


> You would not get a serious job and then, once employed, have an interview and if that works out, then supply your resume.


Great example.


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## Howard Giang (Mar 10, 2018)

Bloke said:


> Howard, trust me, the media has dug through the background of the politicians you vote for before you voted.  You would not get a serious job and then, once employed, have an interview and if that works out, then supply your resume. You say you're an engineer - I would have thought you would have been more into process. Trust me, you're not going to put the cart before the horse when it some to becoming a Freemason, just accept it, and move through the process... or would you just like to do through third degree, and if that works out, try the first and second ? It's like saying you'd like a doctorate in maths, and if it works out, you're gonna learn your times tables.


Thanks Bloke, you have a point. I agree with you regarding employment, etc. because there are reputation and financial liabilities etc... to be considered; however, even that employers can always replace that individual regardless nothing wrong has done. However, we are not comparing to that because here is my point for example when a man dates a woman he would not do a background check on her especially on her sexual health before you know or even would consider ask her if she has any you know before he defrosts her. My point is that this is “relationship” concern and interest like with Freemasonry. Another point, I have never done a background check on my friends because this is considered a friendship and relationship concern and interest. Another point, when a group of religious men and women knock at my door and provide me pamphlets. Do you think they would ask me to first do a petition and then do a background check before allowing me to do for example a bible study or be a member a church? What I tried to explain is that we both have a point. Neither good or bad.
BTW, I don’t think it is the media but rather the “political opposition” that does the digging and extrapolate certain information into scandals. Still there are more post election scandals than pre-election. Anyway, I am not political opposition to Freemasonry. I would think anti-Masonry is more interested in my background than with Freemasonry, and it should be that way.


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## Howard Giang (Mar 10, 2018)

W


Warrior1256 said:


> Not in any lodge that dutifully guards the West Gate. This is ludicrous.


How would that be? For example, a Lodge calls or emails me with instructions to be a Lodge for initiation ceremony. I accept the offer and arrive at the Lodge. I can be interviewed for a half to an hour then perform EA ritual afterward. After that, I go home. Now please explain to me that the West Gate has been compromised by that? In fact, in the future, I can be spiritually and physically guarding the West Gate, and that would be one of my responsibilities. I don’t know if a background check and initiation can be done simultaneously. That is something we should put some thought to it. Seriously, if you just do a google search of my name then the search results of information you obtain is more than an average background check from every one else in the world.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 11, 2018)

Howard Giang said:


> How would that be?


You stated:


Howard Giang said:


> However, I prefer if the Lodge trust me, it should just start with the ritual first, and the other stuffs can be done later.


This suggested to me that you were saying that you believed that you should be allowed to join, be initiated as an EA, and then be investigated. I stated that this is ludicrous, which it is. If I misinterpreted your statement then I apologize.


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## Howard Giang (Mar 11, 2018)

Warrior1256 said:


> You stated:
> 
> This suggested to me that you were saying that you believed that you should be allowed to join, be initiated as an EA, and then be investigated. I stated that this is ludicrous, which it is. If I misinterpreted your statement then I apologize.


I think you might misinterpret my free and accept initiation proposal, but I don’t think you owe me an apology. In fact, I thank you for having a discussion. Let’s further grasp the concept. First, we have to understand the reason why the process was applied in the old days. We did not have electricity, telephone, computer and Internet, and database at the time. To guard the West Gate, you have to trust a person that Mason brought in. We cannot effectively check this person background as comparing as we can do today by just simply google his name. In the the old days, we have to send a person on horse or use a pigeon to notify or send information. Because it was harder to keep secrecy, trust was the most important as before than is today. Trust is still important especially in conducting a relationship; however, we are no longer needed a trusted person to hand deliver a message because we can directly using an email now. Having said that, let me put this in another contexts. We no longer need to use cows to graze the rice field anymore. We can use a tractor now. Okay, let’ go straight to the point. There are differences in practices among businesses, relationships within institutions, clubs, fraternities, organizations, advocacy groups, and political parties, corporations, and more etc., if you insisted my proposal is ludicrous then I can assure you that we will find at least one ludicrous among all them. In fact, we cannot suggest that any Freemason that did not went through a traditional process is also a ludicrous could we? I don’t know about your experience, but for example, a person can be selected in advance that they will get hire or promote before they applied for it. This person can do a mock interview and submitted the paperworks afterward as a when through a process. Am I against this? It depends, for others “yes” for me “no.” Oh, that’s not fair. 

In business practices, I think you don’t check a person background until you hired/accepted that person first.
In Freemasonry, I think a background check is still insufficient in many cases especially with a person that has an utterly motive or have other purposes other than brotherhoods and learning how to perfecting himself for an alternative path or maybe this is the only correct way to salvation.


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## hfmm97 (Mar 11, 2018)

Why do you want to change the rules when you are not a member?


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Howard Giang (Mar 11, 2018)

hfmm97 said:


> Why do you want to change the rules when you are not a member?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


I don’t want to change any rule even if I am a Freemason because I am not introducing new rules. In fact, this is just merely a proposal to a formality. No substance will be lost. For a second, what you need to know about me that you have not already known? On the other hand, I am clueless about Freemasonry other than learning from many YouTube videos especially from ex-Masons or anti-Masons. I am embarking on a spiritual journey and subjecting to concern and liability that any Mason has. I think there are two types of background checks. One is that you can get from a vendor’s cyber database, and the other one, you can only get is from interviewing me and getting to know me over time. 
I think maybe this is arguably rare and reserved only to a special group, so I am going to accept that now.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 11, 2018)

Howard Giang said:


> you have to trust a person that Mason brought in.


No, we don't. Not until the vetting process is completed. I obviously disagree with you on this point as probably do the vast majority of Freemasons.


hfmm97 said:


> Why do you want to change the rules when you are not a member?


Good point.


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## Howard Giang (Mar 11, 2018)

Warrior1256 said:


> No, we don't. Not until the vetting process is completed. I obviously disagree with you on this point as probably do the vast majority of Freemasons.


How was vetting process done in the old days differed than comparing to today? I am not against vetting. In the old days, the person did not leave a concrete history, so relying on referrals were one of the methods because not many things were written down or stored in a database. Let’s say that keeping records were not as good as with today technology. I don’t disagree with you that perhaps maybe we interpreted a same coin from our own perspective of head/tail side we are looking at. I am not saying that Masonry should not do a background check. I am saying that it should  not do a background checks on me since I have a history that can be traced. It is a waste of time and money. 
I highly recommend that Masonry must do it on some one else like if he is from another country that doesn’t have a trail of history where he can be traced. As far as a background check is concerned, the most important is the candidate’s personal view and perception. This information cannot be obtained from a background check on an average person unless this person is a controversial figure. Usually, this person would not want to be a Freemason because of his personal view and perception.


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## hfmm97 (Mar 11, 2018)

Sounds like someone’s trying to hide something - I’ve investigated candidates before and sometimes they have had bogus credentials to hide serious traffic infractions (multiple DUIs) or that they’re in the country without authorization, etc


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Elexir (Mar 11, 2018)

Howard Giang said:


> How was vetting process done in the old days differed than comparing to today? I am not against vetting. In the old days, the person did not leave a concrete history, so relying on referrals were one of the methods because not many things were written down or stored in a database. Let’s say that keeping records were not as good as with today technology. I don’t disagree with you that perhaps maybe we interpreted a same coin from our own perspective of head/tail side we are looking at. I am not saying that Masonry should not do a background check. I am saying that it should  not do a background checks on me since I have a history that can be traced. It is a waste of time and money.
> I highly recommend that Masonry must do it on some one else like if he is from another country that doesn’t have a trail of history where he can be traced. As far as a background check is concerned, the most important is the candidate’s personal view and perception. This information cannot be obtained from a background check on an average person unless this person is a controversial figure. Usually, this person would not want to be a Freemason because of his personal view and perception.



What Ive learned in life is that if a person tells me he has nothing to hide the more likley something to hide.
Can you account for everything you have done every second of your life?


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## Howard Giang (Mar 11, 2018)

hfmm97 said:


> Sounds like someone’s trying to hide something - I’ve investigated candidates before and sometimes they have had bogus credentials to hide serious traffic infractions (multiple DUIs) or that they’re in the country without authorization, etc
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


Hide something? Not me. Even if I want, I couldn’t. I am a public figure in a way you know it is difficult if not impossible if you know what I meant.
“In a country without authorization” for example can you vet that? For example, how about other stuffs like who this person has been contacting with and what information has been passing along, etc. Are those information considered important to Masonry? How would you background check that? A paid background check of me from an internet vendor is unnecessary because you gets more information and accurate by google it.


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## Howard Giang (Mar 11, 2018)

Elexir said:


> What Ive learned in life is that if a person tells me he has nothing to hide the more likley something to hide.
> Can you account for everything you have done every second of your life?


Agree; however, “something to hide” depends and should be careful such as to make sure beyond reasonable doubt otherwise it can be subjected to individual interpretation. 
No, I don’t think I can account everything I have done up to a day or week. I think everyone has at least one secret or more secrets and not wanting to share. As long as those secrets are not illegal, doesn’t affect the relationships within the fraternity, and doesn’t affect other religion, point of view and perception, etc. I think it is fine between us?


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## hfmm97 (Mar 11, 2018)

I’m out - arguing for the sake of arguing is pointless. You probably want to change the rules of baseball to four strikes and you are out and the rules of chess to start the game with two queens on each side


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 11, 2018)

hfmm97 said:


> I’m out - arguing for the sake of arguing is pointless. You probably want to change the rules of baseball to four strikes and you are out and the rules of chess to start the game with two queens on each side


Same here. I've made my position clear. I'm out of this conversation.


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## Bushi1971 (Mar 11, 2018)

Howard Giang said:


> Hi Bushi1971,
> Basically, were you come to a Lodge before or after you were invited to dinner? Did you eventually get a future Brother to sign the petition for you? For me, I would like the person that signed my petition should also be my mentor. However, I prefer if the Lodge trust me, it should just start with the ritual first, and the other stuffs can be done later. The only thing that background check and further investigation is that the candidate name is known publicly. We have never done a background check on our politicians before we vote them because we trust them and their views and values are coincided with us.


I stopped down before one of their meetings unannounced. After that I was invited to dinner a couple of times and then submitted my petition.  One of the brothers signed my petition and now we’re on to the next step.


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## Bushi1971 (Mar 11, 2018)

Well this has turned into something I didn’t want it to.


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## Bloke (Mar 11, 2018)

Howard Giang said:


> Thanks Bloke, you have a point. I agree with you regarding employment, etc. because there are reputation and financial liabilities etc... to be considered; however, even that employers can always replace that individual regardless nothing wrong has done. However, we are not comparing to that because here is my point for example when a man dates a woman he would not do a background check on her especially on her sexual health before you know or even would consider ask her if she has any you know before he defrosts her. My point is that this is “relationship” concern and interest like with Freemasonry. Another point, I have never done a background check on my friends because this is considered a friendship and relationship concern and interest. Another point, when a group of religious men and women knock at my door and provide me pamphlets. Do you think they would ask me to first do a petition and then do a background check before allowing me to do for example a bible study or be a member a church? What I tried to explain is that we both have a point. Neither good or bad.
> BTW, I don’t think it is the media but rather the “political opposition” that does the digging and extrapolate certain information into scandals. Still there are more post election scandals than pre-election. Anyway, I am not political opposition to Freemasonry. I would think anti-Masonry is more interested in my background than with Freemasonry, and it should be that way.


Dating is one thing, getting married having and raising children is another and, in Freemasonry you should be talking about a deep and lifelong commitment, not having a date and if it doesn't work out, just moving on to the next. Likewise with friends, you might give your trusted friend your house keys, but not an acquaintance; and you move to "friend" after a long period of association and observation. There is only two brothers in my mother lodge I would not give me house keys to, one because I've only ever spoken to him on the phone once, the other, because I silently question if he should be a brother.. the other 39 men, I would hand over my keys quickly, indeed, many of them I would hand my credit card and pin to. 

But this conversation is silly, it is a requirement you are checked out before you are initiated, some lodges have low standards in that, others high, but if you continued with this thinking in a lodge I was in, you'd have a slow journey before I considered giving you a petition.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 12, 2018)

Bushi1971 said:


> I stopped down before one of their meetings unannounced. After that I was invited to dinner a couple of times and then submitted my petition. One of the brothers signed my petition and now we’re on to the next step.


Great! Keep us apprised of your progress.


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## dfreybur (Mar 12, 2018)

Bushi1971 said:


> Well this has turned into something I didn’t want it to.



Just to let you know, this forum has an ignore feature.  I found the conversation confusing until I saw a little button at the bottom to show ignored content.  Ah right.  I'd forgotten who was in my ignore list.  I keep the list short but having a few users ignored improves the experience.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 12, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> Just to let you know, this forum has an ignore feature. I found the conversation confusing until I saw a little button at the bottom to show ignored content. Ah right. I'd forgotten who was in my ignore list. I keep the list short but having a few users ignored improves the experience.


Lol....Good advice. Thanks Brother.


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