# Freemason Lodges in Prison ??



## Dontrell Stroman

While at work last night, an inmate noticed my Masonic ring. After noticing it, he started asking me questions out of the ritual (Masonic conversation ). I didn't respond except with a laugh. As he continued to ask questions, I finally said "are you a mason ?" He said "I was raised in Prison ? " This was new to me, so I asked  where did they receive their charter ? (Red flag in my mind ) He said he did not know, but the lodge was made up of men who were freemasons before they went to prison and wanted to carry the craft on.  I've heard of crazy things going on under "Freemasonry" name, but never this. Has anyone heard of this ?


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## NY.Light.II

Never heard of it. But wouldn't surprise me. Probably irregular. My question is if he claims he was raised, why would he be asking about ritual?


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## Dontrell Stroman

NY.Light.II said:


> Never heard of it. But wouldn't surprise me. Probably irregular. My question is if he claims he was raised, why would he be asking about ritual?


Not asking questions in the sense of gaining knowledge, but in the sense of questioning a brother to see if he is a mason. He asked questions about me traveling..... Etc


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## NY.Light.II

Travelling Man91 said:


> Not asking questions in the sense of gaining knowledge, but in the sense of questioning a brother to see if he is a mason. He asked questions about me traveling..... Etc



Interesting. Again, I would not be surprised if he went through something that had the veneer of regular freemasonry.


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## Levelhead

Awesome!! Amazing .. Would love to hear more about that! 


Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom


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## Glen Cook

These are clandestine on anyone's chart.


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## Levelhead

Very true... Very true!! 

Would just like to hear how they meet? Where, i mean you only have so much free time as a group in prison!


Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom


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## MRichard

He is asking you questions but doesn't know anything about his lodge's charter or grand lodge. That is precious. I wouldn't entertain this foolishness.


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## junae

NY.Light.II said:


> Never heard of it. But wouldn't surprise me. Probably irregular. My question is if he claims he was raised, why would he be asking about ritual?


May really just want to know for REAL , that what he may-have been taught, was really how it is.


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## Levelhead

Just ask him to show you the coded books he learned from


Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom


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## NY.Light.II

JamestheJust said:


> I understand that in the second world war Masonic lodges operated inside German prison camps.  I have not heard that any of those lodges was granted a charter by a regular GL, but equally I have heard nothing but respect for those brethren and their lodges.



Point taken.


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## Dontrell Stroman

It's not so much as entertaining what he says because I will no violate my solemn obligation, but I will listen to him speak because I'm learning something new.


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## Dontrell Stroman

Glen Cook said:


> These are clandestine on anyone's chart.


100% agreed.


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## Dontrell Stroman

junae said:


> May really just want to know for REAL , that what he may-have been taught, was really how it is.


Well he stated that he learned all he knows from former active regular masons.


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## MRichard

Travelling Man91 said:


> It's not so much as entertaining what he says because I will no violate my solemn obligation, but I will listen to him speak because I'm learning something new.



Exactly what are you learning from a clandestine/bogus mason?


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## MRichard

JamestheJust said:


> So is the position that no matter how many regular brethren may be in a prison, under no circumstances should they hold a lodge?
> 
> Perhaps they should form their own Grand Lodge and issue  charters to other prisons.



Would your grand lodge grand them a charter?


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## Glen Cook

JamestheJust said:


> I understand that in the second world war Masonic lodges operated inside German prison camps.  I have not heard that any of those lodges was granted a charter by a regular GL, but equally I have heard nothing but respect for those brethren and their lodges.


Operated by regular Masons. Lodges without a territorial jurisdiction long held the right to form on their own with regular Freemasons. The prisons referred to by OP would be in a territorial jurisdiction and were not formed by regular Masons. Indeed, they would likely be a gang adopting some of our signs and symbols


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## Glen Cook

JamestheJust said:


> So is the position that no matter how many regular brethren may be in a prison, under no circumstances should they hold a lodge?
> 
> Perhaps they should form their own Grand Lodge and issue  charters to other prisons.


And just how many regular Masons do you think there are in prison?

As the prison is within a Masonic jurisdiction, it could not form its own Lodge or GL.


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## Companion Joe

Masons interned as POWs are not the same as criminals in prison.

As for someone receiving degrees/having a lodge in prison ... NO.

Someone may very well have received his degrees and been a member in good standing, but the minute he was convicted of a felony, he should have been suspended or expelled. If there are enough of these men in prison to confer degrees, the work they do is without question clandestine.

And no, there is no chance that a regular charter should ever be granted to any prison group.


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## Bill Lins

JamestheJust said:


> I understand that in the second world war Masonic lodges operated inside German prison camps.  I have not heard that any of those lodges was granted a charter by a regular GL, but equally I have heard nothing but respect for those brethren and their lodges.


There is a tremendous difference between a POW camp, where the inhabitants are there due to serving their country, and prison, where the inhabitants are there due to having been convicted of a crime or crimes.


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## Bill Lins

JamestheJust said:


> So is the position that no matter how many regular brethren may be in a prison, under no circumstances should they hold a lodge?


Under GLoTX law, any Mason who is convicted of a felony is automatically expelled. Thus, any GLoTX Mason in prison is no longer in good standing and may not, under any circumstances, hold or participate in any Lodge of any kind.


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## Bill Lins

Travelling Man91 said:


> Well he stated that he learned all he knows from former active regular masons.


How would he know that they were "regular Masons"?


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## Bill Lins

JamestheJust said:


> I suppose that brotherly love would resume the minute that the felon made a successful appeal against the conviction.


Under GLoTX Law, the exonerated man has the right to apply for restoration and reinstatement, but such is NOT automatic.


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## Dontrell Stroman

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> How would he know that they were "regular Masons"?


He wouldn't. Where I work, I have had so many guys that claim to be a mason to try and get over on me. As far as I know this guy could have had a copy of Duncan's ritual and memorized certain Q&A


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## Glen Cook

JamestheJust said:


> With a justice system that is less than perfect, there may be quite a few.
> 
> "There have been 333 post-conviction DNA exonerations in the United States. - See more at: http://www.innocenceproject.org/fre...-exonerations-nationwide#sthash.C7t8t5g0.dpuf"
> 
> So what sort of support should a lodge or Grand Lodge extend to incarcerated brethren?


Irrelevant to the discussion.


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## Glen Cook

JamestheJust said:


> I suppose that brotherly love would resume the minute that the felon made a successful appeal against the conviction.


You suppose that brotherly love ended. 

It depends on what you mean by successful appeal and the jurisdiction.


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## Glen Cook

Levelhead said:


> Just ask him to show you the coded books he learned from
> 
> 
> Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom


Not all of us use coded books.


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## Ripcord22A

Id have him intro you to the other "brothers" and find out what they got going on....and as asked before where the hell are they meeting?  Amd if i was in prison there is no way in hell im willingly letting any one blind fold me and put something around my neck


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## dfreybur

JamestheJust said:


> I suppose that brotherly love would resume the minute that the felon made a successful appeal against the conviction.



In Illinois a brother on appeal is suspended pending the outcome of the appeal.  It takes a vote of his lodge plus GM permission to remove the suspension.

In all 3 of my jurisdictions convicted brothers are expelled automatically.

In the 2 jurisdictions where I have attended GL there are descriptions of the crimes of every expelled brother but not the names.  Sometimes it is easy to figure out if you've paid attention to the news.  When all of their reparations are complete they may apply for reinstatement.  At that point their names are discussed.

The number is never high enough for a clandestine lodge of expelled former brothers to form in prison.


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## hanzosbm

The way I see it, there are a few things going on here.

Are they clandestine?  Almost certainly yes.  The definition of clandestine is operating without a charter from a recognized Grand Lodge.  Technically, there COULD be a recognized Grand Lodge out there that has granted a charter similar to traveling military lodges, but I doubt it.

Next, is the comparison to lodges in POW camps.  Everyone is saying it is different; no it's not.  These were meetings of Masons without a charter because they were being confined against their will and did not have access to regular lodges.  The reason for their imprisonment doesn't matter FOR THIS ISSUE. 

Now, the issue of convicted felons.  I've never done an exhaustive compilation of the standings of every single recognized Grand Lodge and their stance on convicted felons.  So let's play it out.  IF there was a Grand Lodge that allowed convicted felons, and IF all of the inmates were regular, fully paid up members of that particular Grand Lodge, then I would see this as the same situation as the POW camps.  However, those are both highly unlikely.  In most jurisdictions, the brothers would be immediately expelled upon conviction meaning that they all would be clandestine. 

As some others have mentioned, I have no idea how you could carry out the rituals in prison, although I guess if prison tattoos and gang rape go unnoticed, it's certainly possible. 

As a side note, unrelated to the whole prison thing, I've always disliked the contention that we aren't allowed to meet unless it's with the permission of the Grand Lodge.  It's basically saying 'you can't talk to your brothers unless Big Brother says so'.  Some people criticize us as being a cult, and in this regard, I definitely think they have some basis for their argument.


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## Dontrell Stroman

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Id have him intro you to the other "brothers" and find out what they got going on....and as asked before where the hell are they meeting?  Amd if i was in prison there is no way in hell im willingly letting any one blind fold me and put something around my neck


I can't speak to  the other guys because he "supposedly got raised" in a state prison. I work for a county sheriffs office. There is no doubt they are clandestine masons. But how would you know there were guys/ groups performing degrees in Prison if no one took the time out to listen to the cowans ? Lol all he has done is further educated me on bogus masonry.


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## Brother_Steve

Travelling Man91 said:


> Well he stated that he learned all he knows from former active regular masons.


I would bet most masons in prison would have been expelled. I'm speaking from my jurisdiction anyway.

You are still bound to your oath or obligation...

You break those oaths the moment you communicate those secrets to someone in prison. Expelled or not.


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## hanzosbm

JamestheJust said:


> Am I the only one that thinks it odd that brotherly love only flows when Grand Lodge approves?


Nobody said anything about love, just Masonic communication.


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## MRichard

JamestheJust said:


> Am I the only one that thinks it odd that brotherly love only flows when Grand Lodge approves?



Did you forget your Obligation?


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## MRichard

JamestheJust said:


> I took my obligation before and to the GAOTU.  End of statement.



Yours must have been different from mine. What grand lodge are you from? [Jeopardy tune starts playing in the background]


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## Warrior1256

Glen Cook said:


> These are clandestine on anyone's chart.


Agreed. I was a correctional officer for 29 years, working in 4 different institutions and I never heard of "prison" Masons.


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## Dontrell Stroman

Warrior1256 said:


> Agreed. I was a correctional officer for 29 years, working in 4 different institutions and I never heard of "prison" Masons.


Well my brother, first for everything


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## Glen Cook

JamestheJust said:


> Am I the only one that thinks it odd that brotherly love only flows when Grand Lodge approves?


Yes, as it is not based on a fact. Your obedience may not have rules on criminals, but every recognized jurisdiction of which I'm aware does. To find them excluded is a natural consequence. They can and should be loved as a humans. 

Tell us how you've reached out to a Prisoner lately


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## Glen Cook

JamestheJust said:


> I took my obligation before and to the GAOTU.  End of statement.


Really?  There were others involved in mine. Are you confusing the two craft orders under which you claim  you took obligations?


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## Dontrell Stroman

Warrior1256 said:


> Agreed. I was a correctional officer for 29 years, working in 4 different institutions and I never heard of "prison" Masons.


Just because you didn't hear about them doesn't mean they weren't there brother. The guy said there was wasn't much of them, but don't forget how many it takes to open a lodge of master masons.


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## Bill Lins

hanzosbm said:


> Next, is the comparison to lodges in POW camps.  Everyone is saying it is different; no it's not.  These were meetings of Masons without a charter because they were being confined against their will and did not have access to regular lodges.  The reason for their imprisonment doesn't matter FOR THIS ISSUE.


I disagree entirely.  The Brethren in the POW camp are all in good standing. None of those in prison are. A tremendous difference. Even if a Lodge was legally chartered in a prison for the benefit of inmates, my obligation precludes me from meeting with them, as they are not in good standing. No such restriction in a POW camp.



hanzosbm said:


> I've always disliked the contention that we aren't allowed to meet unless it's with the permission of the Grand Lodge.  It's basically saying 'you can't talk to your brothers unless Big Brother says so'.


If you are referring to meeting in a tiled Lodge, I know of no Grand Lodge that allows such without a legitimate charter (i.e. "permission of the Grand Lodge").  Otherwise, one can talk to one's Brethren at any time, anywhere without special dispensation except for certain specific instances.


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## Dontrell Stroman

Let me elaborate on why I chose  "Freemason Lodges in Prison" as the subject. I do not believe any regular GL has gave permission to these guys to operate. The reason I say lodge in Prison is because the guy stated that he became a mason in a lodge in Prison.


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## MRichard

Travelling Man91 said:


> Just because you didn't hear about them doesn't mean they weren't there brother. The guy said there was wasn't much of them, but don't forget how many it takes to open a lodge of master masons.



You are talking about clandestine masons. The rules don't apply to them. They make them up.


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## Dontrell Stroman

MRichard said:


> You are talking about clandestine masons. The rules don't apply to them. They make them up.



I agree 100% brother, they are clandestine, which is why I didn't answer any questions, only asked questions to learn about this bogus masonry.


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## Billy Cox

Yes, there maybe masons in prison.  However, if you never sit in lodge with them then be very careful.  Many people in prison have a difficultly in following societies rules which govern the land. 


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## Glen Cook

JamestheJust said:


> As an outsider I find interesting the assumption that every US citizen convicted is actually guilty.  I would have thought that an African-American might take a different view.
> 
> What view might the GAOTU take on improperly convicted brethren?


I didn't see that presumption. Rather, they have been convicted of a crime. 

Would your GL grant them a charter?


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## Dontrell Stroman

JamestheJust said:


> As an outsider I find interesting the assumption that every US citizen convicted is actually guilty.  I would have thought that an African-American might take a different view.
> 
> What view might the GAOTU take on improperly convicted brethren?


Why would an African-American take a different view ? So just because a person is "African American" which I'm not a fan of calling people, should automatically be okay with clandestine masons, because ?? You want to know the truth about it, I was going to leave race out of it, but the guy that told me this was white.


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## Brother_Steve

JamestheJust said:


> As an outsider I find interesting the assumption that every US citizen convicted is actually guilty.  I would have thought that an African-American might take a different view.
> 
> What view might the GAOTU take on improperly convicted brethren?


Jurisprudence of Law has nothing to do with guilty or not guilty.

Are you a mason? I would refresh yourself with the symbols of the third degree concerning the GAOTU namely the ASE.


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## cemab4y

I have never heard of a working lodge in a prison. BUT, I shared a hospital room with a man who had "done time", and he told me of his masonic experiences in prison. He met a 33rd degree Mason who was in the joint. Many of the guards were masons, but he asked for no special privileges, and did not expect any.

He also gave me some advice on what to if ever I was incarcerated. (for instructional purposes only). He was a fascinating man, and quite intellgent. He could have really made a life for himself, if had made some better choices in his early life.


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## Dontrell Stroman

cemab4y said:


> I have never heard of a working lodge in a prison. BUT, I shared a hospital room with a man who had "done time", and he told me of his masonic experiences in prison. He met a 33rd degree Mason who was in the joint. Many of the guards were masons, but he asked for no special privileges, and did not expect any.
> 
> He also gave me some advice on what to if ever I was incarcerated. (for instructional purposes only). He was a fascinating man, and quite intellgent. He could have really made a life for himself, if had made some better choices in his early life.


I don't believe they are a regular working lodge, but anyone can gather a group of men together and meet and call themselves a lodge of anything


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## cemab4y

I have never heard of a working lodge in a prison. BUT, I shared a hospital room with a man who had "done time", and he told me of his masonic experiences in prison. He met a 33rd degree Mason who was in the joint. Many of the guards were masons, but he asked for no special privileges, and did not expect any.

He also gave me some advice on what to if ever I was incarcerated. (for instructional purposes only). He was a fascinating man, and quite intellgent. He could have really made a life for himself, if had made some better choices in his early life.


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## dfreybur

Travelling Man91 said:


> The reason I say lodge in Prison is because the guy stated that he became a mason in a lodge in Prison.



On concentration camps - It is important that all such meetings involved members of regular jurisdictions.  In theory at the time they did not have permission but they had not way to make contact so they did their best.  What is the lynch pin to me is that once their history was discovered after the war was over they were hailed as heroes.  If they had been able to ask permission it is clear they would have been granted permission.

On prisons - The story is different at both levels.  All regular jurisdictions expel on conviction so prisons in jail are at most expelled former members.  And it is certain that no regular jurisdiction would grant permission for a lodge behind bars to make Masons.

There has been mention of convicted brothers.  Some jurisdictions exclude those with felony records from petitioning.  Other jurisdictions allow petitioning as long as it's been long enough and the petitioner is open about it.  In those jurisdictions some lodges don't accept those with records.  So while it's possible to have a brother with a record it remains rare and only after he is long out before petitioning.  There's also the possibility of reinstatement.  That only happens long after a brother is out and it requires a vote at grand lodge.  I've seen men turned down just because it hasn't been long enough.

Taken together I think it unlikely there was a quorum to confer even a clandestine degree.

What I think happened is a convict found a ritual book and read it.  He committed enough to memory to be able to talk the talk.  Maybe he did it hoping for better treatment from the guards.


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## Dontrell Stroman

dfreybur said:


> On concentration camps - It is important that all such meetings involved members of regular jurisdictions.  In theory at the time they did not have permission but they had not way to make contact so they did their best.  What is the lynch pin to me is that once their history was discovered after the war was over they were hailed as heroes.  If they had been able to ask permission it is clear they would have been granted permission.
> 
> On prisons - The story is different at both levels.  All regular jurisdictions expel on conviction so prisons in jail are at most expelled former members.  And it is certain that no regular jurisdiction would grant permission for a lodge behind bars to make Masons.
> 
> There has been mention of convicted brothers.  Some jurisdictions exclude those with felony records from petitioning.  Other jurisdictions allow petitioning as long as it's been long enough and the petitioner is open about it.  In those jurisdictions some lodges don't accept those with records.  So while it's possible to have a brother with a record it remains rare and only after he is long out before petitioning.  There's also the possibility of reinstatement.  That only happens long after a brother is out and it requires a vote at grand lodge.  I've seen men turned down just because it hasn't been long enough.
> 
> Taken together I think it unlikely there was a quorum to confer even a clandestine degree.
> 
> What I think happened is a convict found a ritual book and read it.  He committed enough to memory to be able to talk the talk.  Maybe he did it hoping for better treatment from the guards.


I could see that. But I could also see a former mason being convicted of a felony and sentenced to life  and not won't to let go of the craft, so they continue to practice masonry in prison. Just a theory. The guy stated that the guys that raised him were former regular masons. I don't know brother. I just thought it was an interesting conversation and wanted to share what I had learned.


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## Levelhead

Here is a couple of thoughts that I had in my mind while driving today thinking about this thread. 
OK for one it's hard to meet in secret so if they were to meet in a room and someone were to be outside watching the door I doubt it would be an inmate it would have to be a mason who was also one of the corrections officer. Unless they had a mason who was a correction officer in the room with them because in jail it is hard to be in a locked room unsupervised with that many people for safety purposes.

and I doubt they would have a cop or a correction officer stay in the room who is not a regular Mason as they would be violating your obligations being clandestine or not.

I also do see how they could meet in a cell with just enough members they would have to be very quiet though as a have meetings and to keep off eavesdroppers.

This is also with the understanding that all gathered in the room running these in prison lodges were actually at one time part of a regular lodge who understand the rules and regulations and their obligations.


Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom


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## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> I have never heard of a working lodge in a prison. BUT, I shared a hospital room with a man who had "done time", and he told me of his masonic experiences in prison. He met a 33rd degree Mason who was in the joint. Many of the guards were masons, but he asked for no special privileges, and did not expect any.
> 
> He also gave me some advice on what to if ever I was incarcerated. (for instructional purposes only). He was a fascinating man, and quite intellgent. He could have really made a life for himself, if had made some better choices in his early life.


If a truthful story, I am sure he was no longer a 33.


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## Warrior1256

Travelling Man91 said:


> Just because you didn't hear about them doesn't mean they weren't there brother. The guy said there was wasn't much of them, but don't forget how many it takes to open a lodge of master masons.


I didn't mean to be arguementive brother. Just stated the fact that in my 29 year career I had never heard of prison Masons.


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## cemab4y

I read a story some years ago about a group of P.O.W.s who set up a square and compasses club in a german prison camp during WW2. (Keep in mind that just being a Freemason would get you sent to a concentration camp. All freemasonry was illegal in Nazi Germany).

The men would hold meetings, and station a couple of "tylers" outside. (This was NOT a working lodge, just a S&C Club). One day the club was meeting. The tyler saw a German guard coming near. The tyler rapped on the door three times, signaling the club to cease the meeting).

The German guard  heard the raps, and without breaking his stride, he made the sign of the EA and walked away.


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## Levelhead

Thats where the "Forget me not" flower came into play.


Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom


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## Glen Cook

Levelhead said:


> Thats where the "Forget me not" flower came into play.
> 
> 
> Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom


Afraid the forget me not is a myth


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## cemab4y

I do not necessarily believe every thing I see on the 'net. Here is the story of the forget me not


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## Glen Cook

http://bessel.org/forgnot.htm


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## Marc N

Unless it's Guantanamo. That's not in anyone's jurisdiction in any sense of the word. Clandiness or clandinicity is surely a matter of perspective. I could see that masonry may appeal to prisoners in the same way that religion would. Structure, hope, friendship. It might be a gang but so might a Bible study by that logic. There is more to be teased out here by examine the concepts of what is irregular and what is simply illicit. I do know masons that have been to prison, been duly masonically punished, but remained active Freemasons after. We have our own principles of redemption, mercy and forgiveness to apply. The one I am thinking of in one of my lodges was for tax evasion, was suspended masonically for 5 years, but welcomed back, not necessarily by everyone but it was before my time. You can get into some tricky technical and/or strict liability offences, particarly around things like sales tax for a business, as I think was the case here. Being held accountable by the law does not in all cases mean there was moral culpability. In some ways I hope there are groups of people following Masonic principles in prison. If you think of it as s fresh start, which is after all one of the points of punishment, then I don't see why say someone who was a criminal in their youth, could not become a mason (genuinely, morally, and with all sincerity) later on in life. We gave up the ideas that criminality is hereditary or brands you for life some time ago. Most of us have broken the criminal law by speeding; is the only thing that makes us better that we didn't get caught? Or that so many people do it, there wouldn't be any masons left if all the speeders got thrown out? When we do speed in a car, say in a suburban street, it's only moral luck that means one person kills someone in an accident and another doesn't. The culpability is the same.


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## Levelhead

Glen Cook said:


> Afraid the forget me not is a myth


Did i say it was?


Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom


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## Ripcord22A

No he's telling you it is a myth


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## Dontrell Stroman

Warrior1256 said:


> I didn't mean to be arguementive brother. Just stated the fact that in my 29 year career I had never heard of prison Masons.


I didn't take it as argumentative brother. Hopefully I didn't come off as trying to argue with you


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## cemab4y

The legend of the forget-me-not is part myth, part reality. (Keep in mind that I have attended lodges in Paris, France with men who lived in France during the Nazi occupation, I have also visited a German-speaking lodge in Paris, with men who served in the German army. )

I have never met a German mason who ever heard of the FMN. Freemasonry is mentioned three times in "Mein Kampf", and Heinrich Himmler's first job in the Nazi party, was keeping track of various freemasons in the Munich area. 

Nevertheless, the Grand Lodge of Bavaria did adopt the FMN when the GL was reestablished. 

The national sojourners organization has "unofficially" adopted the FMN pin, and they sell the pins as a fund-raiser, with a card that has the "legend" of the FMN printed on it.

My take is that a lot of Masons would like to believe that many Masons in Nazi-occupied Europe wore a flower in the lapel.  It makes a nice story and legend.


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## memphisrite

Well, there was a Lodge in a nazi prison camp. They obviously were not chartered by any grand Lodge. All its members were all allied forces POW's and they were covered during their meetings by Catholic priests.  So it doesn't sound unlikely  to find a Lodge in a prison


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## SeeKer.mm

I know this was probably not meant to be funny but.... Lol!


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## SeeKer.mm

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Id have him intro you to the other "brothers" and find out what they got going on....and as asked before where the hell are they meeting?  Amd if i was in prison there is no way in hell im willingly letting any one blind fold me and put something around my neck


Sorry meant to quote this in my last post


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## Ressam

Marc N said:


> Most of us have broken the criminal law by speeding; is the only thing that makes us better that we didn't get caught?


Agreed.
People should not be judged by another people.
It's a big, big fraud. It's iniquity. It's just a lie.
It's "the system" with the possibility when -- one is "imprisoned", and the other one is "acquitted", when both have "broken" the law!
Christ told about that, long time ago(Matthew 7:1-2): [Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again].


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## Dontrell Stroman

cemab4y said:


> I read a story some years ago about a group of P.O.W.s who set up a square and compasses club in a german prison camp during WW2. (Keep in mind that just being a Freemason would get you sent to a concentration camp. All freemasonry was illegal in Nazi Germany).
> 
> The men would hold meetings, and station a couple of "tylers" outside. (This was NOT a working lodge, just a S&C Club). One day the club was meeting. The tyler saw a German guard coming near. The tyler rapped on the door three times, signaling the club to cease the meeting).
> 
> The German guard  heard the raps, and without breaking his stride, he made the sign of the EA and walked away.


Why would he give a sign ? I thought you could only give a sign in a tyled lodge ? Lol


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## Brother JC

Travelling Man91 said:


> Why would he give a sign ? I thought you could only give a sign in a tyled lodge ? Lol


I've never heard that you can only give a Sign in lodge. Like a Token, it's meant to be able to know a Brother Mason, something you don't need in a tyled lodge.


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## cemab4y

You may most certainly give one (or more) of the signs, anytime you think it is appropriate.  If you are seeking a Mason, you may use any of the tokens, to locate a fellow brother of the Craft.


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## Warrior1256

Brother JC said:


> I've never heard that you can only give a Sign in lodge. Like a Token, it's meant to be able to know a Brother Mason, something you don't need in a tyled lodge.


This is my understanding also.


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## Dontrell Stroman

I know brothers, I said that because I was reading a tread one day and a brother stated signs of recognition and Q&A only needed to be discussed in a tyled lodge


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## Dontrell Stroman

I've always found it awkward to use one of the signs. For one reason, signs are somewhat different depending on what jurisdiction your in.


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## Warrior1256

Travelling Man91 said:


> I've always found it awkward to use one of the signs. For one reason, signs are somewhat different depending on what jurisdiction your in.


I didn't know this. I knew that the rituals can be some what different state to state, or even lodge to lodge, but I thought that the signs were the same everywhere.


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## cemab4y

I have visited lodges in 14 states, WashDC, and in several foreign lands. The signs for the Craft degrees, are identical in all well-governed and regular USA lodges.

The ritual varies slightly from state to state. 

Before Kentucky was a state, it was a county of Virginia, and all KY lodges used the Virginia Grand Lodge ritual. When KY became a state in 1792, KY broke off, and got their own GL. The VA ritual and the KY ritual vary slightly.  When the state of Alabama was a territory, KY issued a warrant for Huntsville (ALA) lodge to operate. When Ala got statehood, Huntsville lodge became Huntsville lodge #1 in the Grand Lodge of Ala. Today the Ala ritual differs slightly from the KY ritual.


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## Warrior1256

cemab4y said:


> The signs for the Craft degrees, are identical in all well-governed and regular lodges.


That's what I thought. Thanks for this and the other info brother.


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## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> I have visited lodges in 14 states, WashDC, and in several foreign lands. The signs for the Craft degrees, are identical in all well-governed and regular lodges.
> 
> 
> ...



As a member who actually attends lodge overseas, they are not the same.


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## Glen Cook

Travelling Man91 said:


> I've always found it awkward to use one of the signs. For one reason, signs are somewhat different depending on what jurisdiction your in.


I have not seen differences in the US


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## Dontrell Stroman

I have seen a small difference with the first degree sign only. And from my understanding the sign of distress is different depending on what jurisdiction also. Something I have always wanted to know is, is Prince Hall and and other regular masons signs the same ? I guess I would have to ask a mason that has sat in both lodges.


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## jvarnell

Glen Cook said:


> These are clandestine on anyone's chart.


I really wonder if they are clandestine....were the Freemasons on the side of the south in the civil war incarcerated by the north not freemasons anymore?  Where the prisoners in the american revolution prision ship at New York not freemasons because they were there?....hmmm


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## Ripcord22A

SeeKer.mm said:


> Sorry meant to quote this in my last post


I absolutly meant it in jest byt also seriously.  If i was locked up there is no way in hell im getting blindfolded and cabletowed willingly


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## jvarnell

JamestheJust said:


> So is the position that no matter how many regular brethren may be in a prison, under no circumstances should they hold a lodge?
> 
> Perhaps they should form their own Grand Lodge and issue  charters to other prisons.



I think any group of mason can open a lodge if the have the needed number to open that lodge.


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## jvarnell

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I absolutly meant it in jest byt also seriously.  If i was locked up there is no way in hell im getting blindfolded and cabletowed willingly


Trust is a must.


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## Dontrell Stroman

jvarnell said:


> I really wonder if they are clandestine....were the Freemasons on the side of the south in the civil war incarcerated by the north not freemasons anymore?  Where the prisoners in the american revolution prision ship at New York not freemasons because they were there?....hmmm


I would feel more sympathy for a brother that was already a regular freemason before he went to prison than a guy that was made a mason in Prison. Just my two cents.


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## jvarnell

Travelling Man91 said:


> I would feel more sympathy for a brother that was already a regular freemason before he went to prison than a guy that was made a mason in Prison. Just my two cents.


Except for edicts of probation from some GL's could ,,, a  Brother Master Mason's secrets as his own, murder and treason alone excepted.


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## cemab4y

Glen Cook said:


> As a member who actually attends lodge overseas, they are not the same.



My previous post was a bit unclear.

I have attended USA lodges from sea to shining sea, and the signs are uniformly the same.

In USA lodges that operate in foreign lands, they are the same.

I attended a lodge chartered by the United American-Canadian Grand Lodge of Germany. They use the Minnesota ritual. All signs are the same.

I attended a lodge chartered by the Grand Lodge of California, which uses the Massachusetts ritual. (Operating in Paris France) The signs are the same.

I attended a lodge chartered by the Grand Lodge of Ontario (Canada).. They used the Canadian ritual, and the signs are the same.

I attended a German-speaking, German-sponsored lodge in France. They used the Germany ritual. All the signs are the same, except for the FC, which was different from any I have seen before or since.


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## Ressam

Dear gentlemen.
If "clandestine lodges" are "bad" -- how do you "fight" with them?
Is there any legal ways?
Or, they, actually don't "damage" True Masonry?


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## cemab4y

I would rather not deal in hypotheticals. The fact is, that any group can meet, and call themselves "Masonic". The S&C logo is NOT copyrighted. I know a female freemason who lives in northern VA. There is a co-ed lodge in communist Cuba. There are 5 (five) _Grand lodges _in France (at last count). There are "lodges" that admit atheists.  

These groups have been around for many years, and they do not detract anything (IMHO) from legitimate, recognized, regular Masonry. I say let them have their meetings, and let them practice the brotherly (and sisterly) love, relief and truth.

Legitimate, recognized Freemasonry, does not a monopoly on these virtues.


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## Ressam

cemab4y said:


> The S&C logo is NOT copyrighted.


And that is -- The Problem!


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## cemab4y

Ressam said:


> And that is -- The Problem!



Not necessarily. Please read:

The United States Patent Office took note of this in 1873. It told a flour manufacturer, and the world. ‘This device, so commonly worn and employed by Masons, has an established mystic significance, universally recognized as existing, whether comprehended by all or not, is not material to this issue. In view of the magnitude of the Masonic organization, it is impossible to divest its symbols, or at least this particular symbol—perhaps the best known of all—of its ordinary significance, wherever displayed." The manufacturer was denied the use of the Square and Compasses as a trade-mark.” (Reference: Allen E. Roberts; “The Craft and its Symbols: Opening the Door to Masonic Symbolism” pg. 12).

The fact that the S&C cannot be copyrighted, enables all of the manufacturers to design the belt buckles, ballcaps, etc.


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## Ressam

cemab4y said:


> Not necessarily. Please read:
> 
> The United States Patent Office took note of this in 1873. It told a flour manufacturer, and the world. ‘This device, so commonly worn and employed by Masons, has an established mystic significance, universally recognized as existing, whether comprehended by all or not, is not material to this issue. In view of the magnitude of the Masonic organization, it is impossible to divest its symbols, or at least this particular symbol—perhaps the best known of all—of its ordinary significance, wherever displayed." The manufacturer was denied the use of the Square and Compasses as a trade-mark.” (Reference: Allen E. Roberts; “The Craft and its Symbols: Opening the Door to Masonic Symbolism” pg. 12).
> 
> The fact that the S&C cannot be copyrighted, enables all of the manufacturers to design the belt buckles, ballcaps, etc.


Thanks!


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## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> I would rather not deal in hypotheticals. The fact is, that any group can meet, and call themselves "Masonic". The S&C logo is NOT copyrighted. I know a female freemason who lives in northern VA. There is a co-ed lodge in communist Cuba. There are 5 (five) _Grand lodges _in France (at last count). There are "lodges" that admit atheists.
> 
> These groups have been around for many years, and they do not detract anything (IMHO) from legitimate, recognized, regular Masonry. I say let them have their meetings, and let them practice the brotherly (and sisterly) love, relief and truth.
> 
> Legitimate, recognized Freemasonry, does not a monopoly on these virtues.


Actually, some of them do detract from Regular Freemasonry, deceiving their members as to their regularity. 

What is the co-ed Lodge in Cuba?


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## Dontrell Stroman

Can someone who has sat in both PHA and other regular Masonic lodges say if the signs are the same ?


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## Glen Cook

Travelling Man91 said:


> Can someone who has sat in both PHA and other regular Masonic lodges if the signs are the same ?


In this community? I would not be comfortable in doing so.


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## Dontrell Stroman

Well a brother has already stated that they were the same in other lodges. I am a mason and in no way would I ever ask a brother to violate their obligation. I don't see answering that question any different than a brother saying its the same in other regular lodges


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## MRichard

JamestheJust said:


> Any offers?



I usually question such posts but I will pass on this one.


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## Ressam

JamestheJust said:


> Any offers?


To answer that question -- we have to decide who is the -- GAOTU.
Cause -- it varies & depends on the freemason's "confession", IMHO.


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## NY.Light.II

Ressam said:


> To answer that question -- we have to decide who is the -- GAOTU.
> Cause -- it varies & depends on the freemason's "confession", IMHO.



Or if there is a GAOTU.


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## MRichard

NY.Light.II said:


> Or if there is a GAOTU.



If you don't believe in the GAOTU, then you shouldn't be or ever become a freemason. It's quite simple.


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## SeeKer.mm

MRichard said:


> If you don't believe in the GAOTU, then you shouldn't be or ever become a freemason. It's quite simple.


 Doesn't get any more simple....


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## NY.Light.II

MRichard said:


> If you don't believe in the GAOTU, then you shouldn't be or ever become a freemason. It's quite simple.



To be clear, I believe in a GAOTU. The comment was glib, although I don't think it was communicated correctly over text to read that way. Consider it retracted.


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## Ripcord22A

Why would the GAOTU bother him/herself with such things?


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## MRichard

JamestheJust said:


> I guess the question is just too hard.



Kinda like, what grand lodge do you belong to?


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## dfreybur

Every jurisdiction I am a member of has slightly different signs.  Subtle differences like feet pointing a 45 degrees to forward versus one foot straight forward or straight movements versus curved movements.  The only one that is obviously different is in Texas one of the movements of the FC one is in a different order.


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## Dontrell Stroman

dfreybur said:


> Every jurisdiction I am a member of has slightly different signs.  Subtle differences like feet pointing a 45 degrees to forward versus one foot straight forward or straight movements versus curved movements.  The only one that is obviously different is in Texas one of the movements of the FC one is in a different order.


What about Prince Hall compared to others ?


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## Glen Cook

JamestheJust said:


> Why would the GAOTU bother with Freemasonry at all?


I don't think He would.


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## caution22113

Travelling Man91 said:


> What about Prince Hall compared to others ?


From what I've observed, the signs are basically the same… the differences are the movements to get to the signs


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## Ripcord22A

Travelling Man91 said:


> What about Prince Hall compared to others ?


Ill let u know after the 19th...my lodge here in NM along with the GM of NM is visiting the PHA lodge during their GMs official visit...should be a great night


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## Ripcord22A

JamestheJust said:


> Why would the GAOTU bother with Freemasonry at all?


Well my GAOTU is chuck norris....i dont think he worries him self with what lodges are doing


All hail the chuck!


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## Ripcord22A

JamestheJust said:


> What if a clandestine lodge claimed to have the genuine secrets?  How would we test that proposition?


You do know the "genuine" secrets are just part of the myth right?  That HA wasnt a real person?


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## CloseYetFar

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> You do know the "genuine" secrets are just part of the myth right?  That HA wasnt a real person?



Check 1 Kings 7:13-46.  This is where the reference comes from for a certain part of the ritual.


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## dfreybur

Travelling Man91 said:


> What about Prince Hall compared to others ?



To tell the subtle differences jurisdiction to jurisdiction I would have to attend not just Stated meetings and degrees, but specific ritual instruction.  So far I have been to PHA meetings not to specific ritual instruction.  The subtle differences in direction the feet point or rounded versus squared arm movements are only obvious if you already know exactly what to look for and the person doing it knows the exact movements to use.  There's enough blurring when done on the fly the details get lost.

At Texas PHA I don't remember being confused by the order of their movements for FC the way I did in GLofTX.  They use the non-Texas common order.  I still find it hard in my Texas lodge to use the Texas order in FC.

Thinking back about out of jurisdiction visitors I've seen -

The 2 years we lived in Seattle metro we got plenty of visitors from BC, CA.  The positions of the hands after the movements is much more formal when they do it.  It appears they teach more about where the hands end up in BC, CA than any of my US jurisdictions do.


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## dfreybur

JamestheJust said:


> The loss of the genuine secrets seems not to have been known before 1725.  Why not?



The mirror has two faces.

One view of the genuine secrets is they are the operative stonework known to men who were once the insiders and who had gradually become the outsiders.

Another view is a view of human nature prevalent a few centuries ago that the ancients had inside knowledge of human nature that had gradually been driven outside as modern civilization pervaded.


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## Dontrell Stroman

I've always wondered if Prince Hall and other regular masons have different signs, let's say a Prince Hall mason was using a sign to find a brother, and another regular mason seen it but the sign was different from what he was taught, would he obey the sign that the Prince Hall mason had used ?


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## NY.Light.II

Travelling Man91 said:


> I've always wondered if Prince Hall and other regular masons have different signs, let's say a Prince Hall mason was using a sign to find a brother, and another regular mason seen it but the sign was different from what he was taught, would he obey the sign that the Prince Hall mason had used ?



If the signs are different and unrecognizable, kinda undercuts the reason for them, no?


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## Dontrell Stroman

Well how would you know if they are different, that's why I'm asking


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## NY.Light.II

Travelling Man91 said:


> Well how would you know if they are different, that's why I'm asking



I certainly don't know. I've not been initiated into any lodge.  Mine was just an observation. Curious to see other responses.


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## caution22113

Travelling Man91 said:


> Well how would you know if they are different, that's why I'm asking


If you have received your degrees the signs will be recognizable. The differences are minimal.


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## cemab4y

Glen Cook said:


> Actually, some of them do detract from Regular Freemasonry, deceiving their members as to their regularity.
> 
> What is the co-ed Lodge in Cuba?



Google. Women's freemasonry in Cuba

See the. Havana times April 2010 article


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