# Interested in Brothers thoughts on opening membership to 18 year olds.



## Symthrell (Oct 27, 2017)

I have heard that some states (perhaps the number is 36) allow men as young as 18 to petition to join the Masons. I would be interested to hear peoples thoughts on this and if your lodge has had any 18 year olds petition did they progress through and stay or how has their participation rate been?

I know when I was 18 I was only interested in two things, dating women and partying! Join the Masons would have been the last thing on my mind!

Thoughts??


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 27, 2017)

My home jurisdiction allows 18.  Don't know any one who joined at 18 but I don't see a problem with it.  It would mainly be DeMolays and Lewis' that would join that early 


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## CLewey44 (Oct 27, 2017)

I don't see any problem with it except the fact that I would be hard-pressed to find an 18 year old 'kid' ready and able to take that on. But, if they can afford it,commit themselves to the learning and stay focused, so mote it be. We let guys sign up to join the military at 17 or 18.  Masonry, as much as I love it, is nowhere near as serious an endeavor as enlisting in the military.


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## David612 (Oct 27, 2017)

Here in Australia 18 is the age of adulthood so you can drink, marry, fight for your country, vote and join freemasonry.
For me personally I didn’t look into masonry until a decade later however I do regret not getting into it earlier but I didn’t follow the standard young guy drinking, clubbing and womanising path, no judgment of course but that just wasn’t me.


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## David Duke (Oct 27, 2017)

In Texas 18 is allowed and I have no problem with that but would like to give share what I have observed. 

First remember that I am working from my feeble memory!  In the past 10 years we have had approximately 10-15 candidates under the age of 20 of those I think only 3-4 have made it to MM status and none are active at this time. All of these young men are fine individuals (including the ones who are not MM) I just personally feel that men of this age have too many things happening in their lives to commit the time necessary. Hopefully as they get older they will return. 

As a comparison those 30+ are  showing about a 65%-75% completion rate and are remaining somewhat active. 


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## Brother JC (Oct 27, 2017)

My Mother Jurisdiction allows it. I know of a few who joined early, including the sole person I’ve signed first line for. He is now JW and on track to be an amazing Master.


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## goomba (Oct 27, 2017)

In either 2014 or 2015 this came up in Alabama and was voted down.  I spoke on the grand lodge floor in favor of lowering the age.  The majority of the people (obviously) were not in favor of it and the first speaker said basically when he was 18 we wasn't ready and he would have tarnished the fraternities name. 

When I spoke I started with "When I was 18 I joined the US Army.  When I was 19 I married my wife and we are still  together today.  I am aware some some are not ready to become Freemasons at 18.  However, some are.  

Regardless of this the fact is over 30 grand lodges in the Untied States have the age to join at 18.  Has their lodges and grand lodges been harmed by allowing adults to become members?  Our concerns have already been addressed and we should lower our age."

I still stand believe that today.


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## Matt L (Oct 27, 2017)

I raised two 18 year olds as Master.  One was my son, who asked me for a petition right after his Birthday party.  He is currently the Junior Deacon of his lodge, a plural member of another closer to his university.  He is also a lecture card holder.  The 2nd is a L/CPL in the Marine Corps stationed in California.  We keep in touch.  He can't do much, because we (TN) are still clandestine in California.  My feeling is, if you're old enough to fight and die for your country, you should be able to petition for membership.  Let the investigating committee decide if the person is mature enough.


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## Bill Lins (Oct 27, 2017)

Matt L said:


> we (TN) are still clandestine in California.


?


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## CLewey44 (Oct 27, 2017)

Matt L said:


> I raised two 18 year olds as Master.  One was my son, who asked me for a petition right after his Birthday party.  He is currently the Junior Deacon of his lodge, a plural member of another closer to his university.  He is also a lecture card holder.  The 2nd is a L/CPL in the Marine Corps stationed in California.  We keep in touch.  He can't do much, because we (TN) are still clandestine in California.  My feeling is, if you're old enough to fight and die for your country, you should be able to petition for membership.  Let the investigating committee decide if the person is mature enough.



Is this in regards to some GLs not recognizing others based on decisions made to not allow gay guys or something like that? Sorry off subject but just curious.


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## Brother JC (Oct 27, 2017)

Bill Lins said:


> ?


GLCA dropped recognition of several GLs in the not too distant past.


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## Matt L (Oct 27, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> Is this in regards to some GLs not recognizing others based on decisions made to not allow gay guys or something like that? Sorry off subject but just curious.



Yes


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## Glen Cook (Oct 27, 2017)

Bill Lins said:


> ?


TN and GA over the gay prohibition issue.


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## MarkR (Oct 28, 2017)

We've initiated a few under 21.  We're a university town, and they were students.  They remained active while at school at about the same rate as other new members, but after graduation they moved away.  I know that a couple have remained active, but don't know about all of them.  In fact, I was contacted by one just the other day who's currently living overseas, but wanted to know how to go about getting reinstated (NPD) for when he comes back, and to be able to visit lodges where he is now.


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## David612 (Oct 28, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> TN and GA over the gay prohibition issue.


What’s the story there for those of us in the dark about it


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## Bloke (Oct 28, 2017)

MarkR said:


> We've initiated a few under 21.  We're a university town, and they were students.  They remained active while at school at about the same rate as other new members, but after graduation they moved away.  I know that a couple have remained active, but don't know about all of them.  In fact, I was contacted by one just the other day who's currently living overseas, but wanted to know how to go about getting reinstated (NPD) for when he comes back, and to be able to visit lodges where he is now.


Where is he ?


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 28, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> My home jurisdiction allows 18. Don't know any one who joined at 18 but I don't see a problem with it. It would mainly be DeMolays and Lewis' that would join that early





CLewey44 said:


> I don't see any problem with it accept the fact that I would be hard-pressed to find an 18 year old 'kid' ready and able to take that on. But, if they can afford it,commit themselves to the learning and stay focused, so mote it be.


Agreed.


goomba said:


> Regardless of this the fact is over 30 grand lodges in the Untied States have the age to join at 18. Has their lodges and grand lodges been harmed by allowing adults to become members? Our concerns have already been addressed and we should lower our age."


Agreed!

GL of Kentucky membership is 18.


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## Glen Cook (Oct 28, 2017)

David612 said:


> What’s the story there for those of us in the dark about it


http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2016/03/gl-of-california-breaks-with-georgia.html


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## David612 (Oct 29, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2016/03/gl-of-california-breaks-with-georgia.html


Thanks for that.
Gotta say its disappointing that this is even an issue, especially given our values.


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## MarkR (Oct 29, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Where is he ?


Korea.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 29, 2017)

David612 said:


> Gotta say its disappointing that this is even an issue, especially given our values.


Yes, especially in this day and age.


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## Bloke (Oct 29, 2017)

MarkR said:


> Korea.


I'm no good to you then


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## Glen Cook (Oct 29, 2017)

David612 said:


> Thanks for that.
> Gotta say its disappointing that this is even an issue, especially given our values.


For discussion sake, which values prohibit exclusion based on sexual orientation? Note, we already exclude on the basis of gender, on religious belief, on political belief, on physical and mental disability. How is this form of discrimination any different?


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## JJones (Oct 29, 2017)

It's 18 here in Texas and (I think) it was 21 back when I joined. The requirement to be 21 was probably a throwback from when lodges allowed alcohol at some point but I also think men are (somewhat) more mature at 21 than they are at 18.

I've never seen an 18-year-old go through the degrees and stick around but that's probably more of an issue of guarding the West Gate. Which brings me to my point, I don't mind 18-year-olds being able to petition so long as we are diligent in our investigations.


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## David612 (Oct 29, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> For discussion sake, which values prohibit exclusion based on sexual orientation? Note, we already exclude on the basis of gender, on religious belief, on political belief, on physical and mental disability. How is this form of discrimination any different?


 I see this descrimination as masonically irrelevant, where as the others have a reason within the organisation.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 29, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> we already exclude on the basis of gender, on religious belief, on political belief, on physical and mental disability. How is this form of discrimination any different?


Good point!


JJones said:


> I don't mind 18-year-olds being able to petition so long as we are diligent in our investigations.


Same here.


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## Glen Cook (Oct 29, 2017)

David612 said:


> I see this descrimination as masonically irrelevant, where as the others have a reason within the organisation.


Mostly I agree, but limiting Lodges to Christianity, monotheism, or political rliefs?


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## Symthrell (Oct 29, 2017)

I know that in my home state they have now changed the age to 18. I have no problem with it, as stated by some, if you are old enough at 18 to enlist and serve your country then who am I to stop you from petitioning for membership. Sadly it has become about numbers and my state thinks this will help bring in more people to join. I think they are pushing the wrong solution. That, however, is a topic for another thread and I am sure there are quite a few of those in the archives of this site.


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## David612 (Oct 29, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Mostly I agree, but limiting Lodges to Christianity, monotheism, or political rliefs?


I would argue that we don’t limit lodges in the ways of Christianity or monotheism, sure our teachings are structured in that framework however is isn’t really required that you profess a literal belief an a single overacrching Christian god but rather you are given a wide freedom of interpretation on what god is to you and given the alagorical nature of the craft there is a lot of flexibility there.
as for the political belifes I’m not too sure what your are referring to specifically.


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## Glen Cook (Oct 29, 2017)

David612 said:


> I would argue that we don’t limit lodges in the ways of Christianity or monotheism, sure our teachings are structured in that framework however is isn’t really required that you profess a literal belief an a single overacrching Christian god but rather you are given a wide freedom of interpretation on what god is to you and given the alagorical nature of the craft there is a lot of flexibility there.
> as for the political belifes I’m not too sure what your are referring to specifically.


Actually, we have GLs which are specifically Christian and some which are specifically monotheistic. We also have symbolic degrees using a Christian Rite in some GLs. We also have those specifically excluding certain political beliefs.


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## David612 (Oct 29, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Actually, we have GLs which are specifically Christian and some which are specifically monotheistic. We also have symbolic degrees using a Christian Rite in some GLs. We also have those specifically excluding certain political beliefs.


Interesting, can’t say I’ve seen anything like that in my jurisdiction, is this a US specific occurance?
What benefits are gained from Christian exclusive freemasonry given the works of standard freemasonry? 
I find many references to freemasonry and then American freemasonry due to the many cultural differences.


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## Glen Cook (Oct 29, 2017)

David612 said:


> Interesting, can’t say I’ve seen anything like that in my jurisdiction, is this a US specific occurance?
> What benefits are gained from Christian exclusive freemasonry given the works of standard freemasonry?
> I find many references to freemasonry and then American freemasonry due to the many cultural differences.


I can't address the benefits. We have I think two brethren on this list which practice the Swedish Rite. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Rite

Some GLs allow the Rectified Eccosais Rite to be worked (Brazil, Portugal). 

Some US requirements:
Texas requires on it's petition for the degrees a belief in the US Constitution and the divine  authenticity of the volume of sacred law. http://grandlodgeoftexas.org/assets/uploads/2015/10/26.pdf

Kentucky forbids  those who believe in the overthrow of the government.http://www.mastermason.com/mckee/newpetition.pdf

Oklahoma requires a belief in the one true and  living God , prohibits support of the overthrow of the government and requires that one support the Constitution and agree to defend it.  http://www.gloklahoma.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/petition2011.pdf

Florida asks if you believe in the one ever living and true God. It also prohibits a belief in the overthrow of the government.  http://grandlodgefl.com/docs/GLF_Forms/GL 601 Petition for the Degrees.pdf

See also North Carolina http://www.grandlodge-nc.org/storage/wysiwyg/Form 17.pdf

Louisiana "abhors" Communism and will expel Communists:  https://la-mason.com/wp-content/themes/mason/documents/PETITION_FOR_DEGREES_3_19_2014.pdf 

Virginia recognizes only those  Grand lodges who are monotheistic. http://bessel.org/masrec/recstand.htm

PHA WA: 
Title 113, Section 113.01
"Every Candidate applying for the degrees in Masonry must have the senses of a man; especially those of hearing, seeing, and feeling; be a believer in God and a future existence..."
....
Section 113.04
"A candidate who is unable or unwilling to express a belief in the existence of God and a resurrection to a future life lacks the essential qualification for the degrees to Masonry..."


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## David612 (Oct 29, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> I can't address the benefits. We have I think two brethren on this list which practice the Swedish Rite. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Rite
> 
> Some GLs allow the Rectified Eccosais Rite to be worked (Brazil, Portugal).
> 
> ...


Interesting, I’m not familiar with the Swedish rite, heck I’m barely familiar with the blue lodge.
 it’s interesting to see the local cultures manifest in the wording of obligations. We are obligated to obey the laws and government of the land, that’s a paraphrase but you get the idea. I guess it just perplexed me that they would descriminate based on something irrelevant to the fraternity.


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 29, 2017)

David612 said:


> they would descriminate based on something irrelevant to the fraternity.


But is it?  Irrelevant that is.  Could it. Not be see as immoral?  Thus making the gay man not a just and upright Man?


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## David612 (Oct 29, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> But is it?  Irrelevant that is.  Could it. Not be see as immoral?  Thus making the gay man not a just and upright Man?



There are many different books on Masonic alters, Does your life conform to all measures of morality? I know mine dosent.


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 29, 2017)

David612 said:


> There are many different books on Masonic alters, Does your life conform to all measures of morality? I know mine dosent.


No not at all...I'm playing devils advocate. Just  Saying.  It could be seen that way. ..what about a pedophile? 

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## David612 (Oct 29, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> No not at all...I'm playing devils advocate. Just  Saying.  It could be seen that way. ..what about a pedophile?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


That’s not really apples and apples.


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 29, 2017)

Ok one that hasn't acted on it? Or an alcoholic? 

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## Elexir (Oct 29, 2017)

David612 said:


> Interesting, I’m not familiar with the Swedish rite, heck I’m barely familiar with the blue lodge.
> it’s interesting to see the local cultures manifest in the wording of obligations. We are obligated to obey the laws and government of the land, that’s a paraphrase but you get the idea. I guess it just perplexed me that they would descriminate based on something irrelevant to the fraternity.



Actully when freemasonry came to Sweden and in the culture in wich the Swedish rite was created was in a culture dominated by christianity so the development of a mono-religous freemasonry in such an enviroment is not that difficult to understand.


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## David612 (Oct 29, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Ok one that hasn't acted on it? Or an alcoholic?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


Again, not apples and apples.



Elexir said:


> Actully when freemasonry came to Sweden and in the culture in wich the Swedish rite was created was in a culture dominated by christianity so the development of a mono-religous freemasonry in such an enviroment is not that difficult to understand.


I’ll have to read up on the particulars of the Swedish rite, you can imagin in Australia it’s not common.


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## Elexir (Oct 29, 2017)

David612 said:


> Again, not apples and apples.
> 
> 
> I’ll have to read up on the particulars of the Swedish rite, you can imagin in Australia it’s not common.



We mostly exist just in Scandinavia.
https://www.myfreemasonry.com/forums/the-swedish-rite.431/ is a Good start


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## David612 (Oct 29, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Ok one that hasn't acted on it? Or an alcoholic?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


I can expand a bit on this, Is it immoral to be an alcoholic? I don’t know, it’s generally accepted as a disease so no it’s not immoral however if you just write it off as being someone who lacks will power and can’t keep their desire to drink in due bounds then you may feel justified in saying it’s immoral, assuming there is no impact on the lodge both opinions on it are irrelevant in the context of freemasonry. 
It is not our right to press our opinions of morality on others, especially when they are well within the bounds of the law of the land.


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## Bloke (Oct 30, 2017)

David612 said:


> Again, not apples and apples.
> 
> 
> I’ll have to read up on the particulars of the Swedish rite, you can imagin in Australia it’s not common.



More than not common - it does not exist here.


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## David612 (Oct 30, 2017)

Bloke said:


> More than not common - it does not exist here.


Exactly and I can’t really wait to run into someone in lodge who has been involved


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## HoldenMonty (Oct 30, 2017)

In Pennsylvania the age is 18 and we had one guy that got his first and second when I did but was raised at a special meeting in July before he headed out to basic training to be in the army national guard.


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## Symthrell (Oct 30, 2017)

So it seems we have two topics going in this one thread now. I appreciate all the responses and look forward to more. I, for what it is worth, have no problem with allowing 18 year olds to become masons. I think there are many young men mature enough to join. I also think there are 30 year olds, like my oldest son, who still thinks the money he earns from his job is to first pay for his weekend partying and hence he lacks the maturity to join. So I think it is more the individual than the age.

As to the other topic, I don't care if a man is heterosexual or homosexual if he is a good individual I am all for him joining.


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## Brother JC (Oct 30, 2017)

Matt L said:


> He can't do much, because we (TN) are still clandestine in California.


For the record, California does not consider TN “clandestine,” they have only suspended recognition. There is a marked difference. A Brother who is a member of both GLs can still attend lodge in CA, but not in TN.


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## cemab4y (Oct 31, 2017)

Kentucky lowered the minimum age to 18 some years ago. I have not heard of any problems occurring.


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## CLewey44 (Oct 31, 2017)

I don't think it'd ever be a situation where the problem is because a member was 18 or 19 years old. The only problem would be one that sometimes already exists and that's guarding the west. 18 or 80, we sometimes let the wrong fellas in.


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## Brother_Steve (Nov 1, 2017)

18 in New Jersey.
The only 18 year olds I've seen initiated in my Lodge were Demolay or Scouts.

One of our initiations had four 18 year olds. Three of which were Demolay and sons of Master Masons in our lodge.

We were 21 up until 2014 or 2015.


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 1, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> For the record, California does not consider TN “clandestine,” they have only suspended recognition. There is a marked difference. A Brother who is a member of both GLs can still attend lodge in CA, but not in TN.


You mean that if he's a TN and CA mason he couldn't go to lodge in TN?

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Edited to correct "Auto correct" mistakes


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## CLewey44 (Nov 1, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> You man that I'd he's a TN and CA mason he couldn't go to lodge in TN?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app



....autocorrect.....


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 1, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> ....autocorrect.....



Yeah my bad


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## Brother JC (Nov 1, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> You man that I'd he's a TN and CA mason he couldn't go to lodge in TN?


Nope.


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 1, 2017)

My question is why couldn't California revoke that brothers membership as he is a member of an unrecognized body?  Couldn't that brother be brought up on Masonic charges just for being a TN Mason?


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## Brother JC (Nov 1, 2017)

I can’t speak for the Grands but I would guess it’s a “baby and bath water” situation. You can’t fault a Brother for being a member of something that’s temporarily off limits, but you can forbid him from attending.


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## Brian Maxwell (Nov 3, 2017)

I don't see an issue either. It's a great thing to pass on freemasonary to the younger generations. There are not as many young men getting into the craft as 100 years ago. Let's get our membership, and pass on what our elders gave us!

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## Brother_Steve (Nov 3, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> My question is why couldn't California revoke that brothers membership as he is a member of an unrecognized body?  Couldn't that brother be brought up on Masonic charges just for being a TN Mason?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


I would assume the "when in Rome" rule is in effect.

We have a NY Worshipful Brother visit our Lodge in NJ from time to time. He wears his PM apron from NY. He want's to become a member of our lodge while retaining his NY membership as well. Once he becomes a NJ Mason, he cannot wear his PM Apron from NY in a NJ Lodge meeting but can continue to wear his PM Apron when in New York.

I think the Brother that is a CA Mason and a TN Mason concurrently can sit in a Lodge in CA as that membership would take precedence regardless of his TN membership. However, the grey area would be travelling out of CA to a state that does not recognize TN.

He can show his CA dues card and get in, but is he being unmasonic by not disclosing his TN membership? Same for a NY and NJ Mason visiting abroad in Scotland. If I go through my Grand Secretary in NJ to get a certificate of good standing, am I breaking masonic law by not divulging my NY membership given that situation that exists?


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## acjohnson53 (Nov 3, 2017)

No, they are not ready yet, I'm down for the youth but 18, c'mon now. remember our country did away with the draft, so I would rather see a 21 year old versus an 18 year old....they still confused on which direction they gonna take in life.....


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## Glen Cook (Nov 3, 2017)

acjohnson53 said:


> No, they are not ready yet, I'm down for the youth but 18, c'mon now. remember our country did away with the draft, so I would rather see a 21 year old versus an 18 year old....they still confused on which direction they gonna take in life.....


On the whole, I agree with this. Yes, we were subject to the draft, but the military also teaches the boot how to sleep, bathe, eat, walk, and talk (or not talk, the latter being my issue). Really, an 18 year old should be chasing girls and going to school.


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## Del B (Nov 29, 2017)

Well I am aware before in Arizona u can petition if you are 18 but u cannot be raised until 21....Im not sure if that still stands at all but most 18 yr Olds are mature enough for the commitment level in my opinion


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