# Women In Masonry - Spin-Off



## owls84 (Jul 21, 2009)

Based on the responses, Do you feel that Women should have their own orginazation, just like Blue Lodge but female only no men allowed?


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## TCShelton (Jul 21, 2009)

Yep.


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## Taurus27 (Jul 21, 2009)

They can do whatever they like............except.......impose their will on me or my Lodge.
There are sites with women masons, and I won't join and discuss with them at all. I took a S...O.. not to confer with those not recognised by my Lodge.


This idea of women calling themselves 'brothers"...........hrumpf!
Cannot accept that under any circumstance.


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## Taurus27 (Jul 21, 2009)

I've stated in another post that my comments should NOT be construed as sexist........for I an not. Some of my really good friends are women.
I've stated why I can't discuss Masonic matters with women, and if people have a problem with that statement, then I suggest they go back to the S...O and re-read it.
OES and the other orgs are wonderful for those in it and I don't have a problem whatsoever, and if they're happy........so am I.
Men have an outlet to be with other men.........why can't women?
But some of these co-masonry groups call women "brothers".....I find it odd...what's wrong with "sister"?



Not matter where you go in this World....this arguement will always crop up and as soon as the M/S mason states his belief........you can bet that someone else will take offence.
That's life, ain't it?


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## Blake Bowden (Jul 21, 2009)

My wife is in Beta Sigma Phi Online . They have closed meetings and I'm not allowed in!


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## rhitland (Jul 22, 2009)

It would be cool, but there are great organazations that embrace the duality of humans and I think those are the future not the exclusive ones.


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## Sirius (Jul 22, 2009)

Doesn't OES cover this? I'm not exactly an expert on womens issues.


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## Blake Bowden (Jul 22, 2009)

Sirius said:


> I'm not exactly an expert on womens issues.



Haha my wife tells me that all the time.


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## owls84 (Jul 22, 2009)

Sirius said:


> Doesn't OES cover this? I'm not exactly an expert on womens issues.



Bro Rhit brought up a point that OES requires that at least one Mason be present at their meetings.


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## Sirius (Jul 22, 2009)

owls84 said:


> Bro Rhit brought up a point that OES requires that at least one Mason be present at their meetings.



So? Is he going to find out the secrets of the Ya Ya Sisterhood?


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## C_Cabra (Jul 23, 2009)

I think the rule that a Mason be required at OES meetings should be changed.


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## Nate Riley (Jul 23, 2009)

Are there not organizations out there that are women only organizations?  They may not be affiliated with the Masonic lodge (like OES), but certainly there are some out there.


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## fairbanks1363pm (Jul 24, 2009)

there are plenty organizations out there for men and women to join.  i thinking allowing women in and having to change our obligation would be a slap in the tradition of our fraternities face.  next would be allowing athiest.


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## JTM (Jul 24, 2009)

Women can have whatever they deem they need/want.


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## susan (Jul 25, 2009)

You  men.... lol .... I am new to all this ... but if want this womans opinion.....then.... No we should not have an exclusive masonic order for just us.  We have other thing for us..  IT IS NOT BROKEN WE SHOULD NOT FIX IT.  men need and want (in my opinion)  to go out and hang out with other men and as a woman I would preffer my man (if I had one) to be at the lodge as a possed to the bar.  As far as OES is concerned it is for Masonic women therefore a Mason should show up same with Rainbows a Mason has to be there.  I know my oldest wants to be a Mason but I am old fashasioned and think its not broke don't fix it.  Besides If I were really wanting to know I can look it up on line. But I am not... Your traditions are yours.


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## rhitland (Jul 25, 2009)

Well said Susan, why mess with something still working.


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## JTM (Jul 25, 2009)

susan said:


> You  men.... lol .... I am new to all this ... but if want this womans opinion.....then.... No we should not have an exclusive masonic order for just us.  We have other thing for us..  IT IS NOT BROKEN WE SHOULD NOT FIX IT.  men need and want (in my opinion)  to go out and hang out with other men and as a woman I would preffer my man (if I had one) to be at the lodge as a possed to the bar.  As far as OES is concerned it is for Masonic women therefore a Mason should show up same with Rainbows a Mason has to be there.  I know my oldest wants to be a Mason but I am old fashasioned and think its not broke don't fix it.  Besides If I were really wanting to know I can look it up on line. But I am not... Your traditions are yours.



i agree with susan insofar as this: women need/want other things than masonry.  how come our path must cross theirs?  women are totally different beings with totally different needs.  they learn their path from wise and learned women, just as we learn ours from wise and learned men. 

no wise and learned (emphasis here on "ed") woman i know would create what we call masonry, or want to join at all, for that matter.

also, i'm really glad there's finally a woman on these forums.  finally, someone to keep order around here!


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## Bill Lins (Dec 7, 2009)

C_Cabra said:


> I think the rule that a Mason be required at OES meetings should be changed.



I believe that it is *their* rule & it would be up to *them* to change- never seen anything in *our * law book concerning this issue.


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## Bill Lins (Dec 7, 2009)

JTM said:


> also, i'm really glad there's finally a woman on these forums.  finally, someone to keep order around here!



Pick up your own clothes- she ain't your momma!  :7:  :lol:


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## rhitland (Dec 7, 2009)

Taurus27 said:


> They can do whatever they like............except.......impose their will on me or my Lodge.
> There are sites with women masons, and I won't join and discuss with them at all. I took a S...O.. not to confer with those not recognised by my Lodge.
> 
> 
> ...



I respect your opinion on this matter but if you talk Masonry with a woman Freemason this is not a violation of your obligation.


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## rhitland (Dec 7, 2009)

fairbanks1363pm said:


> there are plenty organizations out there for men and women to join.  i thinking allowing women in and having to change our obligation would be a slap in the tradition of our fraternities face.  next would be allowing athiest.



comparing a women to an atheist is a bit like apple to oranges. I would propose that an atheist would have no desire to join a God loving/fearing community but a women very well would.


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## cemab4y (Feb 22, 2011)

There are Women Freemasons. There have been such organizations for many years. See www.co-masonry.org There is a lodge in Maryland, I have met one of their members.


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## ARizo1011 (Jun 6, 2013)

I think the eastern star is good enough. No offense to women.. But it's a brotherhood...  Hence... BROTHERHOOD 


Freemasonry


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## r.parfait (Jun 6, 2013)

I strongly concur! That is why i knocked. Iron sharpens iron!


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## Will Pots (Jun 6, 2013)

Blake Bowden said:


> My wife is in Beta Sigma Phi Online . They have closed meetings and I'm not allowed in!



Good point.  


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## dtobecker (Jun 11, 2013)

Women can have all kinds of fraternities, clubs, meetings etc. pp. 

But they should not be called Freemasons. I believe this happens only in France and the US...



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## MajaOES (Jun 11, 2013)

The issue is that there are Masonic affiliated organizations that have only women.  Daughters of Mokanna which is part of the Grotto, Daughters of the Nile which shares ties with the Shrine, and Ladies of Oriental Shrine of North America which again shares ties with the Shrine, Social Order of the Beauceant is also an all womens organization that aligns with the Knights Templar.  The only organizations that have both men and women in them are Eastern Star and the Order of Amaranth.  So in response to your question I put yes because these types of organization exist. In the structure and organization of Masonry in Texas, even if women had their own organization, it would still need to be recognized by the Grand Lodge to call it a masonic body.  This being said there is always an alignment or affiliation with some all male organization in order for the group to be accepted.


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## jaermani (Jun 11, 2013)

It just would not be right, it's the brotherhood not the sisterhood. 


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## jnjones86 (Jun 11, 2013)

There is no such thing as a women Freemason because it is a fraternity not a sorority, the ritual isn't compatible and hormones would have ruined the harmony long ago. There are groups of women who call themselves Freemasons but the fact of the matter is that they really aren't and just use our name and symbols. Obviously they don't have the real rituals or obligation or they'd see the conundrum.  Plus if someone tried to change the landmarks and allow women in, they'd break their obligation and have to suffer the penalty of unmasonic conduct.


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## bro_reggie (Jun 11, 2013)

a woman can never be a mason


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## LittleHunter (Jun 12, 2013)

As much as I believe in equality and as much as I support women's rights I believe it is healthy for society for men and women to have some separate spaces. There are some mysteries men and women can and should explore together and there are some that they should explore apart. We've lost the meaning of manhood in our culture. We need spaces where men can support one another without competing with or over women. This is one of the valuable civilizing functions regular Freemasonry affords.


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## BryanMaloney (Jun 14, 2013)

Yeah, I can just see this conversation:
Me: "Meine Schaetzchen, I forbid you from joining or forming any sort of independent sorority that is only for women."
Her: "Why did you volunteer to sleep with the chickens from now on?"

If my wife wants to join or become a founder of a free-standing, independent sororal organization, there is no way I could object. Likewise, if they have an initiatory structure, don't allow men to join, and have esoteric practices, what of it?

It is not the place of Freemasonry to dictate what women do entirely among themselves, any more than it would be the place of a sororal organization to dictate what men do among ourselves. So long as it does not impinge upon life outside the fraternity or sorority, what is the point of debating the issue?

One might as well ask, as Americans, if the Swedes are to be permitted to hold their political elections every three years, in the month of March. It's simply not our business to decide that issue.


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## BryanMaloney (Jun 14, 2013)

Tripolski Janos said:


> Human inteligence dont have gender


 
Speaking as a neuroscientist (look me up in Medline, lots of work in the Alzheimer's field, in particular), I disagree. Human intelligence does have gender, no matter what political propagandists might claim. Male and female human brains develop differently, and much of that difference is biologically originated. Social conditioning certainly has an effect, but it's not nearly as malleable as certain dogmatics want us to believe. Biology matters. Ignore it at your peril. Of course, only a fool would conclude that we should let biology dictate everything, but it is both foolish and futile to pretend it isn't there.


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## BryanMaloney (Jun 14, 2013)

There is no need for any affiliation with any Grand Lodge for any group, no matter how wacky, to call itself "Freemasonry". This has been very well established. But why bother with that? What does flying the Masonic Flag without a legitimate _living_ historical tie do? I am once again reminded of the plethora of little churches in the USA that tout enormous and elaborate "lines of Apostolic succession", often from multiple sources. They don't mention that, in every one of these "lines" there was a formal loss of recognition. What these groups gain from this is the ability to impress the credulous and the ignorant, who do not understand that legitimacy is a matter of maintaining and continuing live connections, not a matter of having at one time been led or founded by somebody who used to have a connection but then forfeited it.


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## BryanMaloney (Jun 17, 2013)

Tripolski Janos said:


> Freemasonry is not esoteric organization.Leter G is originaly only geometry.Too much cloud in history and myths.Sir Fr.Be.made very god yob.Freemasonry is not charity organization that is oly representatin of way of thinking.Solomon temple is hous of knowlege.Audi vide tace,V.I.T.R.I.O.L
> Originaly freemasonry is very close too Iluminati order-founding fathers in Royal Academy.Ffreemasonary is not wisy washy club or opium home.There a no drunk people in Boston tea party.Mass closed individuality and thet is a reason of developing American freemason to survive.
> Wee must purge  our home.
> p.s.
> Croatian freemasonry have military origin .La Parfait Union and L"Ordre des Fendeurs---Legion etranger and Iluminati Loge @Ignjat Martinovic.Maximilian Vrhovac



Freemasonry is esoteric. Otherwise, we would not have the Obligation as it is. The so-called "Illuminati" started in the late 18th century by Adam Weishaupt. Thus, even by the most conservative estimates, the Illuminati is at least a century younger than Freemasonry. Freemasonry has nothing to do with or against the "Mass", if by "Mass" you mean Roman Catholic liturgetics. Freemasonry is not an anti-Catholic organization. As for "purges"--that's the language used by Stalinists. Freemasonry is not an organization that imposes dogmatic uniformity. Purges are for political parties, and Freemasonry is not a political party.


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## dfreybur (Jun 17, 2013)

BryanMaloney said:


> As for "purges"



In some jurisdictions when the officers are asked if all present are Masons as a part of the tiling and opening, that's called a purge.  The room is purged of people who are not qualified.

What that has to do with the tea party in Boston, Mass two and a half centuries ago I won't guess.


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## BryanMaloney (Jun 19, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> In some jurisdictions when the officers are asked if all present are Masons as a part of the tiling and opening, that's called a purge.  The room is purged of people who are not qualified.
> 
> What that has to do with the tea party in Boston, Mass two and a half centuries ago I won't guess.



"We must purge our home" is no synonym with "Tyling the Lodge".


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## livingstone (Jun 19, 2013)

I am in tanzania I love all frends 
0655290346]Freemason Connect Mobile[/color]


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## ARizo1011 (Aug 16, 2014)

Imagine having a worshipful master as a woman and that day is her "time of the month" now that would be a hell of a night. xD 

I rather just have men. But I have had some brothers visit my lodge from outside the U.S  and they say that women in masonry already exists. And I don't mean the women orders I mean Freemasonry they do the EA FC and MM just like is men. It's not a big deal.. But I rather just have a group of men and the wives meet at well and we all have dinner then the men go up to do their work and the women stay downstairs knitting or what not.


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## Levelhead (Aug 17, 2014)

ARizo1011 said:


> Imagine having a worshipful master as a woman and that day is her "time of the month" now that would be a hell of a night. xD
> 
> I rather just have men. But I have had some brothers visit my lodge from outside the U.S  and they say that women in masonry already exists. And I don't mean the women orders I mean Freemasonry they do the EA FC and MM just like is men. It's not a big deal.. But I rather just have a group of men and the wives meet at well and we all have dinner then the men go up to do their work and the women stay downstairs knitting or what not.



Hmm where are these people from? Because from my knowledge only "co masonry" (which is considered clandestine) and a lodge in England and i THINK one in France (regular lodges) have women.

I was watching a show on freemasonry and there was a woman from England on it and she had a big old square & compass medallion around her neck and was speaking about the craft.



Sent From Bro Carl's Freemasonry Pro App


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## ARizo1011 (Aug 17, 2014)

Levelhead said:


> Hmm where are these people from? Because from my knowledge only "co masonry" (which is considered clandestine) and a lodge in England and i THINK one in France (regular lodges) have women.
> 
> I was watching a show on freemasonry and there was a woman from England on it and she had a big old square & compass medallion around her neck and was speaking about the craft.
> 
> ...




Yea brother I think I saw the same one on the history channel  I'm not to sure but I think It would be funny to have WM as a woman -_-


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## Roy_ (Aug 17, 2014)

No need to repeat what I have written elsewhere, but co-Masonry is all over the globe and there are different organisations. The biggest is Le Droit Humain that has existed for over a century and is now active in over 60 countries (including the US) and has tens of thousands of members. In Belgium, Le Droit Humain makes up 30% of all Masons.
As far as I know, there are no regular co-Mason organisation, but how could there when there are Landmarks?

Sidenote, Le Droit Humain started with an atheistic rite and there are also Belgian and French 'Freemasons' without GAOTU, but Le Droit Humain nowadays uses three rites, one of which is atheistic. It is the least used rite. Most Belgian Masonic organisations have no GAOTU either. Only 6,5% of the Belgian Freemasons are regular.

Your truly,

Roy
co-Mason


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## Rifleman1776 (Sep 3, 2014)

I did not vote. It is not up to men to decided what women can do. If they want to start something, they usually do and men are helpless to stop it.


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## admarcus1 (Sep 3, 2014)

Taurus27 said:


> This idea of women calling themselves 'brothers"...........hrumpf!
> Cannot accept that under any circumstance.



I think it is odd, but it doesn't bother me. Perhaps they feel that the term "Brother" in a masonic context carries with it meaning that Sister does not. Of course, they wouldn't care what I think, nor should they. I am certain it has meaning for them. 

It makes me think of Star Trek II:  the Wrath of Khan. In that movie, everyone is addressed as either their rank or as "Mister". I had a bit of a crush on Mister Savik (Kirstie Ally) back in the day. 

It all seems somewhat arbitrary anyway. In English, we differentiate between male and female siblings, but not cousins. In French, they differentiate between male and female cousins, but with the same root word. In Hebrew, both are gendered, but even brother and sister use the same root (and all words are gendered).


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## Roy_ (Sep 4, 2014)

In my lodge we have brothers and sisters, in Le Droit Humain they do that too. It seems to be dependant on the choice that the Grandloge/-Orient made in the early days.


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## Morris (Sep 4, 2014)

The only part that I don't understand is how fraternity can be a sorority. I'm sure it's my own ignorance but I've researched the definitions and the roots of the words which always lead me back to male or female. 

In this co-masonry scenario I would read "fraternity" as mixed, either/or and sorority would still be female only. If all that holds true then what would be male only?

I get hung up on words sometimes, haha.


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## Roy_ (Sep 4, 2014)

Yea, but not everybody does or did! In my order we use the word "broederschap", "brotherhood"/fraternity just like the regular male lodges do and also "broederketen", "chain of brothers", while "chain of unity" would be more appropriate, but that would sound terrible in Dutch. Actually, almost everything is the same as in the Grand Orient (that is to say, we have different rites, but different organisations develop differently), the only difference being that we do admit women. Perhaps things would have been clearer when 120 years ago organisations that did not live up to the Landmarks had not used the word "Freemasonry", but things are as they are.

So indeed, Freemasonry, making a brotherhood/fraternity of men and women


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## Rifleman1776 (Sep 4, 2014)

I would not particpate in anything Masonic of women were included as members. Women have their own organizations, men have theirs. And, there are organizations which are open to both and that is fine. But, viva le difference.


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## Roy_ (Sep 4, 2014)

SMIB


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## admarcus1 (Sep 4, 2014)

Morris said:


> The only part that I don't understand is how fraternity can be a sorority. I'm sure it's my own ignorance but I've researched the definitions and the roots of the words which always lead me back to male or female.
> 
> In this co-masonry scenario I would read "fraternity" as mixed, either/or and sorority would still be female only. If all that holds true then what would be male only?
> 
> I get hung up on words sometimes, haha.


In many languages, mixed gender plural defaults to the masculine. For example, in Hebrew the word for boys is yeladim, and the word for girls is yeladot. The word for children (both boys and girls) is yeladim. We see it elsewhere in English. Womankind would not include men, but mankind includes women. 

I suppose you could call it a siblingority or siblingernity, but u doubt that would catch on.


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## dfreybur (Sep 5, 2014)

admarcus1 said:


> It makes me think of Star Trek II:  the Wrath of Khan. In that movie, everyone is addressed as either their rank or as "Mister".



In Navy boot camp I was taught that Mister worked for any cadet and Sir worked for any officer.  At the time Ma'm was preferred but not required for female officers.  I don't recall being taught a term for female cadets.


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## admarcus1 (Sep 5, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> In Navy boot camp I was taught that Mister worked for any cadet and Sir worked for any officer.  At the time Ma'm was preferred but not required for female officers.  I don't recall being taught a term for female cadets.



That makes sense in the film.  Savik and her fellow crewmen (and women) were cadets.  Further exposing myself as a geek, on the first few episodes of Star Trek: Voyager, some crewmembers had some confusion as to whether to address Captain Janeway as sir or ma'am.  She accepted both.  To be consistent with the films, I think they should have stuck to sir, but they played it for comic relief.

Language is a funny thing.  I have many native Chinese speakers where I work, and many of them struggle with our gendered pronouns.  They don't have them.  My friend Zhaohui mixes up "he" and "she" all the time.  Otherwise, he is completely fluent in English.  It's one aspect of our language that seems completely unnecessary to him, so it doesn't stick.  I have a similar problem with the genders of inanimate objects in Hebrew and French.  I have a hard time remembering which nouns are masculine and which are feminine.  And it matters.  In Hebrew, numbers are different depending on whether the items you are counting are male or female.  For example, if you are counting three masculine things, three is shalosh.  If they are feminine, three is shloshah.  If it is a mixed group of masculine and feminine, you use the masculine form.

I think I have pulled this discussion far enough away from the original topic into the land of linguistics that I will stop imposing my particular fascination with language on everyone.


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## Morris (Sep 5, 2014)

admarcus1 said:


> I suppose you could call it a siblingority or siblingernity, but u doubt that would catch on.



Found the word "Homosociality".


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## coachn (Sep 5, 2014)

Masonry has re-enforced for me the understanding that words have general meanings and specific meanings and the context they are used within can and do change their meaning dramatically and sometimes in ways that require a rethinking of many well-entrenched beliefs. 

It's also taught me how many men can't comprehend much less accept this.


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## Morris (Sep 5, 2014)

coachn said:


> Masonry has re-enforced for me the understanding that words have general meanings and specific meanings and the context they are used within can and do change their meaning dramatically and sometimes in ways that require a rethinking of many well-entrenched beliefs.
> 
> It's also taught me how many men can't comprehend much less accept this.



Very true, sort of like "All men are created equal" now means mankind and still not everyone is onboard with that. 

Sorry Roy, I may have just derailed your topic.


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## Roy_ (Sep 6, 2014)

Don't worry, it wasn't my topic and some interesting thoughts came out of linguistic reasoning, didn't they?


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Sep 6, 2014)

coachn said:


> Masonry has re-enforced for me the understanding that words have general meanings and specific meanings and the context they are used within can and do change their meaning dramatically and sometimes in ways that require a rethinking of many well-entrenched beliefs.


My desire to truly comprehend the meaning of words began in earnest when I read that Aristotle believed that there were two kinds of "good".  "Good is such a simple word" I thought, "how can it mean two things?"  His description of the "public good" and the "private good" (well, really an explanation of his description) has taught me to see that the casual use of words is often confusing.  Today I often witness two people arguing and think "They aren't even talking about the same thing."  Unfortunately these people don't even realize it.  They won't take the time to define their terms, that would take all the fun out of the argument.  


coachn said:


> It's also taught me how many men can't comprehend much less accept this.


I believe that that many in our society don't want the average person to understand this concept.  One possible reason is that once you get people engaged in an unwinnable argument they are easier to manipulate.  Politicians love this tactic.  They get people into an unwinnable argument and then say "Vote for me and I will win that for you"!  Masonry is unique in that it teaches men that they should seek the truth for themselves rather than allowing others to define it for them.  To attain understanding we encourage the study of words.


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## coachn (Sep 6, 2014)

Grammar teaches us the Lexicon and how to use it.
Logic teaches us how to Construct Arguments from that Lexicon and how to make those Arguments Strong.
Rhetoric teaches us how Lexicon Dramatically Changes its Meaning beyond the Accepted Concrete depending upon 1) how it is Employed and 2) the Mentality, Attitude and Grasp of those who hear it.
BTW - Don't expect any EAs or FCs to have anywhere near the Grasp of Masters.


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## dfreybur (Sep 6, 2014)

I rather like the view that the 7 start out narrowing then end up expanding, like philosophy and science are intended to.  For that matter like boot camp is intended to.

Grammar teaches how to organize our words so others will be able to understand us.
Rhetoric teaches how to use our words to convince others.
Logic teaches us how to tell true statements from false statements.
Arithmetic teaches how to achieve precision among true statements.
Geometry teaches us how to expand precise true statements to be able to construct objects from them.
Music teaches us how to influence emotions using scales that have geometric and arithmetic properties.
Astronomy teaches us to stretch our imaginations toward the infinite while still observing the lessons and rules of all the previous arts.

The total is not just that a man's reach should exceed his grasp, but that he should be able to systematically use tools and ideas to project his reach much farther and more powerfully than just dreaming abut the stars.


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## Glen Cook (Sep 6, 2014)

Roy_ said:


> ..... The biggest is Le Droit Humain that has existed for over a century and is now active in over 60 countries (including the US) and has tens of thousands of members.  In Belgium, Le Droit Humain makes up 30% of all Masons....
> ....
> Only 6,5% of the Belgian Freemasons are regular.
> 
> n


 Citation?


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## Roy_ (Sep 7, 2014)

Glen, the only regular Belgian organisation is the Regular Grand Lodge with about 6500 members. The largest Belgian organisation is the Grand Orient, but they do not use the GAOTU. Then there is a whole range of smaller groups. Just see Wikipedia.

All off topic in this thread of course.


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## Glen Cook (Sep 7, 2014)

Roy_ said:


> Glen, the only regular Belgian organisation is the Regular Grand Lodge with about 6500 members. The largest Belgian organisation is the Grand Orient, but they do not use the GAOTU. Then there is a whole range of smaller groups. Just see Wikipedia.
> 
> All off topic in this thread of course.


Right. What is your citation for the figures you provided.

I am aware of the various organizations.  As best I recollect, my first joint function with feminine/co-ed Masons was 2001, though it could have been earlier.


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## Glen Cook (Sep 7, 2014)

I saw the 2009 Wiki report in your other post.  I am scheduled to attend the World Conference Board meeting in November as is a PGM of Belgium.  Once we get past issues of the Berlin declaration, I may remember to ask him about current figures.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 4, 2014)

Taurus27 said:


> They can do whatever they like............except.......impose their will on me or my Lodge.
> There are sites with women masons, and I won't join and discuss with them at all. I took a S...O.. not to confer with those not recognised by my Lodge.
> 
> 
> ...


Same here, agree 100%.


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