# Who knows about the star system Siris?



## Bro. Vincent (May 22, 2013)

... And the Dogon people?


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## JJones (May 22, 2013)

Are you referring to their religion?

I don't know much about it but I think I know where you're going with this!

I think it's safe to say that they aren't the only ancient people with very detailed knowledge of the stars but there's is certainly very well documented.


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## Bro. Vincent (May 22, 2013)

JJones said:


> Are you referring to their religion?
> 
> I don't know much about it but I think I know where you're going with this!
> 
> I think it's safe to say that they aren't the only ancient people with very detailed knowledge of the stars but there's is certainly very well documented.


You're right. They weren't the only people that knew about it but they aren't ancient. As a matter of fact they knew more about it than the more technically advanced scientist  than the French astronomers that were studying them... Without modern technology. They were the ones that taught the world it was it was not only a 
one star system but a tri- star system with no modern technology.  They say they are direct descendants of the Egyptians. Even today astronomers and scientist are still trying to figure out how they mapped the heavens.


I'm not going anywhere in particular just something I'm studying. I find it fascinating...


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## dew_time (May 22, 2013)

Bro. Vincent said:


> I'm not going anywhere in particular just something I'm studying. I find it fascinating...
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



I think I've read something about this. Perhaps they are the "aliens" people seem to point out in the writting in the pyramids...

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## Bro. Vincent (May 23, 2013)

dew_time said:


> I think I've read something about this. Perhaps they are the "aliens" people seem to point out in the writting in the pyramids...
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



They were not built by aliens my brother. You've been watching too many movies lol. Just kidding. Seriously aliens   
did not build anything in the Giza plateau... All divine human ingenuity! 


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## dew_time (May 23, 2013)

Bro. Vincent said:


> They were not built by aliens my brother. You've been watching too many movies lol. Just kidding. Seriously aliens
> did not build anything in the Giza plateau... All divine human ingenuity!
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Lol.. movies and tv... the greatest education around. Egyptian history was my favorite subject in school but that was so long ago. I know aliens had nothing to do with their culture but I do beleove they wew an enlightened people.

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## Bro. Vincent (May 23, 2013)

I could talk for hours regarding this subject. It is one of the most dynamic and most talked about and least understood cultures of the modern era. That history has been extremely distorted (for reasons I will get into here) and the artifacts and libraries ruined yet there are still reminders left behind to remind us of what is capable in the devine human spirit of man. Funny thing is it is older than most historians say and what we do  know outwardly about that civilization is intresting because it was already the declining of the Pharonic Dynasties. No one has a clue of what was happening during it's zenith.


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## dfreybur (May 23, 2013)

Astronomy stuff -

Sirius A is a bright star and therefore much younger than Sol.  This makes it less likely to host a native technological species than Sol (us).  Sirius B is a white dwarf.  White dwarfs are formed by bright stars running out of hydrogen fuel and going nova or supernova.  This means the Sirius system has been incinerated by at least one nova blast since it condensed out of its nebula.  This further reduces its chances of hosting a native technological species.  If aliens came from Sirius (a gigantic if) they were not native to that system.

There's a counteracting situation here.  White dwarfs shine for an *extremely* long time.  Far longer than the 8 billion year lifespan the Sun has from ignition to its red giant phase.  Sol will likely end up a white dwarf after it completes its red phase.  But during its red giant phase Earth will be incinerated, stripped of its atmosphere and maybe evaporated completely.  Now let's postulate a species so advanced technologically it can move planets from interstellar space into a star system, terraform them and settle on them.  Putting such a planet in orbit around a white dwarf gives you a system that lasts hundreds of billions of years.  It might be worth doing if any species ever gets that level of capability.  With the gigantic if that any species ever gains the ability to move a planet like that.

Now for the double counterbalance.  As Sirius A is still bright it will go nova or supernova at least once and probably several times.  It will have its own red giant phase that will incinerate any planets nearby.  Any species able to move a planet will chose more stable systems to colonize.  For a species to put a planet near either of these stars it would have to be able to move planets for a strategy that last millions not billions of years.  That's an even higher level of capability and we don't even know if there are other species out there.  And it's an even bigger if.  We've gotten into so many layers of if there's no way.

My conclusion is if aliens visited the Dogon (highly unlikely) they did not come from Sirius.  The Dogon ancestors did not understand the answer when they asked the aliens where they had come from so they remembered the brightest star in the sky.  But what really happened is they were not visited by aliens rather it's a symbolic not literal story - a parable.  I am not surprised that a parable about granting light to a tribe ends up using the brightest star in the sky.

Why do they think Sirius is a triple star?  Random made up stories are right sometimes.  Can knowledge come to humans by means other than telescopes?  Probably but that delves into the mystical and in this particular post I address astronomy and odds and motivations not mystical knowledge.

It doesn't have to be random.  Look up into the sky in the winter when Sirius is visible.  It's part f a triangle of stars.  Staying it's a triple system can be as simple as seeing that triangle of stars and not knowing they have very different distances.


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## Bro. Vincent (May 23, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> Astronomy stuff -
> 
> Sirius A is a bright star and therefore much younger than Sol.  This makes it less likely to host a native technological species than Sol (us).  Sirius B is a white dwarf.  White dwarfs are formed by bright stars running out of hydrogen fuel and going nova or supernova.  This means the Sirius system has been incinerated by at least one nova blast since it condensed out of its nebula.  This further reduces its chances of hosting a native technological species.  If aliens came from Sirius (a gigantic if) they were not native to that system.
> 
> ...


 ahhh...but the interesting twist to the story of the Dogon is even if what you say is true, then please enlighten me on how the third star was found by the Dogon?

I find this most interesting though...

*Certain researchers investigating the Dogon have reported that they seem to possess advanced astronomical knowledge, the nature and source of which have subsequently become embroiled in controversy. From 1931 to 1956 the French anthropologist Marcel Griaule studied the Dogon. This included field missions ranging from several days to two months in 1931, 1935, 1937 and 1938[SUP][15][/SUP] and then annually from 1946 until 1956.[SUP][16][/SUP] In late 1946 Griaule spent a consecutive thirty-three days in conversations with the Dogon wiseman OgotemmÃªli, the source of much of Griaule and Dieterlen's future publications.[SUP][17][/SUP] They reported that the Dogon believe that the brightest star in the sky, Sirius (sigi tolo or 'star of the Sigui'[SUP][18][/SUP]), has two companion stars, pō tolo (the Digitaria star), and ęmmę ya tolo, (the female Sorghum star), respectively the first and second companions of Sirius A.[SUP][19][/SUP] Sirius, in the Dogon system, formed one of the foci for the orbit of a tiny star, the companionate Digitaria star. When Digitaria is closest to Sirius, that star brightens: when it is farthest from Sirius, it gives off a twinkling effect that suggests to the observer several stars. The orbit cycle takes 50 years.[SUP][20][/SUP] They also claimed that the Dogon appeared to know of the rings of Saturn, and the moons of Jupiter.[SUP][21][/SUP]*
*Griaule and Dieterlen were puzzled by this Sudanese star system, and prefaced their analysis with the following remark:-*
*The problem of knowing how, with no instruments at their disposal, men could know the movements and certain characteristics of virtually invisible stars has not been settled, nor even posed*​


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## Bro. Vincent (May 23, 2013)

That excerpt is from a wikipedia article, but it is on point. And the more I study these people and their initiation rites and practices the more intrigued I am...Again my fundamental question is how did they know...? Everyone knew Siris A, no big deal,  but not everyone knew about  B and no one had any idea that it was tri-nary star system until fairly recently. These people knew then and say the are direct decedents of the ancient Egyptians.

this story of the Dogon asking aliens where they come from and didn't know or understand the answer? Where are you getting your sources from? In the Dogon mythology they say that is the star system THEY come from and that is where their ancestors are and that they travel back and forth often which is exactly what the ancient Egyptians say they were doing in the scrolls "Coming Forth by Day" and grossly interpreted as the Egyptian book of the Dead.


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## dfreybur (May 23, 2013)

Bro. Vincent said:


> then please enlighten me on how the third star was found by the Dogon?



You're thinking of using a telescope to discover that Sirius is a trinary star system.  I'm thinking that when I look up at Sirius I see three stars in a triangle.  Very different but I bet it's a bear to get that across in translation to a very foreign language.

As to Dogon myth saying they come from Sirius, parables use stories to tell deep truths while the surface story is not required to be truth.  Very few faiths teach that their stories are literally true so I do not make the assumption that they think that.


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## Bro. Vincent (May 23, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> You're thinking of using a telescope to discover that Sirius is a trinary star system.  I'm thinking that when I look up at Sirius I see three stars in a triangle.  Very different but I bet it's a bear to get that across in translation to a very foreign language.
> 
> As to Dogon myth saying they come from Sirius, parables use stories to tell deep truths while the surface story is not required to be truth.  Very few faiths teach that their stories are literally true so I do not make the assumption that they think that.



But that's just it. You cant see the third star even with a telescope, even today, but astrologist  now know it's there because of the energy it emits...how could these people possibly know this?


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## Aeelorty (May 23, 2013)

Crazy idea but maybe they just took guess and made things up and they just happened to be true. Can anyone name any other groups who made predictions about stars that are wrong? How much easier is it to recall a group that stands out more like the Dogon than a group that was wrong?


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## widows son (May 23, 2013)

I'm on the fence about this subject. I don't believe there's any alien contact, but I do believe that they are much more advanced, and that their fables involve astronomical data, the bible is full of it, so there's nothing saying that the Dogon  didn't know either. 

Bro. Vincent have you read the Sirius Mystery by Robert Temple? He goes into quite some detail about this subject. If you haven't read it my brother I suggest you do


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## Bro. Vincent (May 23, 2013)

widows son said:


> I'm on the fence about this subject. I don't believe there's any alien contact, but I do believe that they are much more advanced, and that their fables involve astronomical data, the bible is full of it, so there's nothing saying that the Dogon  didn't know either.
> 
> Bro. Vincent have you read the Sirius Mystery by Robert Temple? He goes into quite some detail about this subject. If you haven't read it my brother I suggest you do



Thank you brother Widow I think I will check it out. Unfortunately the nerd in me... Has me reading three books at once at the moment but I'll put one that on my list. The dogon are really an interesting people during our life time that we should honor and study. But thats just me...

But thank you for the heads up I will Check it out and get back to once I read it. I will read it trust me... Might take a while to get to it but I'll read it.


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## Aeelorty (May 23, 2013)

> and that their fables involve astronomical data



Interesting what data is that?


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## Bro. Vincent (May 23, 2013)

Aeelorty said:


> Crazy idea but maybe they just took guess and made things up and they just happened to be true. Can anyone name any other groups who made predictions about stars that are wrong? How much easier is it to recall a group that stands out more like the Dogon than a group that was wrong?



The problem about the theory about them guessing about it, is there were other high cultures before them and after that had no access to that knowledge yet, had the same things in their own folklore. Wholistic cultures, the Mayans, the Dogon, the khemits, the summarians, the ancient ethiopians, the Nubians, the Dravidians, the moors, the Zulu, the north american native american, the south american native american, the Grimaldi, so on and so on.... could all these groups be guessing or mislead?
Hmmmmmm.... I'm jus saying....


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## dew_time (May 24, 2013)

I thought being able to fix million dollar machines that mass produce circuit boards made me sound smart but I think you guys have me beat!!

This is fascinating!! Who would have ever thought I would learn this much from an app I downloaded!?!?

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## Bro. Vincent (May 24, 2013)

To learn is to ask a question. When the answer doesn't make sense to you then you keep searching. 

IMO that's masonry is all about finding the answers and secrets of the Devine man, once found imploring those answers to make a more perfect man.

This why masonry is a life long journey.


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## widows son (May 24, 2013)

"and that their fables involve astronomical data"
"
Interesting what data is that?"

- they (The Dogon)  predicted according to Robert Temple that Sirius was a binary star system. Of course we knew this in the early 1900's but we needed telescopes to figure it out where they didn't. They also didn't have much contact with outsiders so their legends were hardly corrupted by time and people. 

Like I said before, the bible is full of astronomical data and information so there's nothing saying that the Dogon didn't have similar information too.


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## Aeelorty (May 24, 2013)

> they (The Dogon) predicted according to Robert Temple that Sirius was a binary star system. Of course we knew this in the early 1900's but we needed telescopes to figure it out where they didn't. They also didn't have much contact with outsiders so their legends were hardly corrupted by time and people.



I got that part but what evidence did they site? It sounds more like they believed that Sirius was a trinary star system, which is not the case. It has also been suggested that the Dogon where not as knowledgeable in astronomy as has been suggested by their chronicles who may have either fabricated some of their support or contaminated the Dogon culture with outside info.

I think it would be cool of the Dogon did have some kind of unexplained knowledge, but I just don't think the evidence supports the claim that they held advanced astrological knowledge ahead of the science at the time.


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## Bro. Vincent (May 24, 2013)

Aeelorty said:


> I think it would be cool of the Dogon did have some kind of unexplained knowledge, but I just don't think the evidence supports the claim that they held advanced astrological knowledge ahead of the science at the time.


I beg to differ about your statement...what "evidence" and who and what are your sources? The Dogon, the Yoruba, the Mali and many other African groups have somewhat similar high cosmological sciences in their folklore. This is beyond simple astrology, this is also the meta-physical and spiritual aspects wrapped together. The Zulu have been telling western scientist forever that their ancestors come from Mars and we all know what pictures the Viking Probe recorded and sent back to earth in 1976 and the US and Briton have been trying to get back there ever sense.   The Egyptians and the Dogon say they astro travel...There many hieroglyphs in the tombs of Egypt that support this notion.


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## Michael Hatley (May 24, 2013)

Half (and that is a conservative number) of all the stars in the universe are binary or multiple star systems.  Sirius is the brightest star(system) in the sky.  Consider odds.

Now consider the odds that an alien species would be of similar size as us.  Live in the same time as us (this brief last 10,000 years or so is but a very, very brief moment on the scale of the universe).  That they shredded the laws of physics and created much, much faster than light travel - the sort of thing which would require the energy of a black hole.  Not a piece of it, but all of it.  

If you make the leap that they discovered a way around time/light/space and got here, if you make the leap that they happened to be roughly the same size as us, and were carbon based "amphibians", there is still the bit about why they would choose to vanish.  So you have to tack on a) some sort of holocaust/disease, b) ran out of black hole fuel, c) someone broke their prime directive, and now they went back to observing it, or some other sort of equally....well...sort of reaching scenario.

I'm no numbers man, but stack the odds of what I'm getting at in my first sentence to the odds I'm getting at in the rest.

Really, I'm not trying to be disrespectful - but Occam's razor 

Personally speaking, I think that for better or worse, we are alone.  I also believe that there is, has been, or will most certainly will be life on other planets.  But time on a universal scale is far, far different than the brief history of man, or even of mankind in general.  And faster than light travel is mostly the stuff of space opera that truly, is likely to not be possible by any means.  I say that sadly, and after having taken a bit of physics and coming to realize that fact.  

We're on this rock.  Others are on their rocks.  The fraction of living creatures that make it to our level of intelligence, and then civilization, are separated by size, distance, vastly different atmospheres and millions and millions of years.  That probably sounds awfully defeatist, but its not like in 1200 when we had oceans to conquer by the winds.  The distances are simply too vast.  We conquered the oceans and populated the world and now we yearn for the stars and companion species - and so our natures yearn for confirmation that we are not alone in the universe.  The knowing it isn't enough, and we probably won't ever give up hoping and wishing.  It is like a splinter in our minds, for we are an expansionist, exploration, frontier loving species.  

Oh hell, I went to rambling.  

Short version - its interesting stuff, but I doubt they were visited by aliens :001_cool:


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## Bro. Vincent (May 24, 2013)

Michael Hatley said:


> Half (and that is a conservative number) of all the stars in the universe are binary or multiple star systems.  Sirius is the brightest star(system) in the sky.  Consider odds.
> 
> Now consider the odds that an alien species would be of similar size as us.  Live in the same time as us (this brief last 10,000 years or so is but a very, very brief moment on the scale of the universe).  That they shredded the laws of physics and created much, much faster than light travel - the sort of thing which would require the energy of a black hole.  Not a piece of it, but all of it.
> 
> ...



Hmmmm... I never once mentioned aliens. I said Astro-travel. The metaphysically traveling. The problem is we try to fit these concepts in our narrow vision of reality and then say that's impossible. The Greeks thought they were the greatest civilization in the world until they came in contact with ancient Egyptians then their reality in Greece was changed forever...  I cannot get to far into that on this site because that gets into things that volumes of books are written about...

But I think it would a bit arrogant as humans to say there aren't other intelligent beings in the universe. Maybe we aren't spiritually strong enough to communicate with them... And I said spiritually not religiously  strong enough, there is a difference.

All ancient "wholistic cultures" since the beginning of time speaks of other dimensions and beings. We have been so spiritually dumb down that we don't look past our flat screen TVs for any sort of information. And anything other than what is in front us must discounted...

To me everything we are looking for is within ourselves not outside ourselves. All answers to the universe are inside ourselves...

It's internal qualifications of a man not the external ...


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## widows son (May 24, 2013)

I don't have the cites off hand, but I do know there is many references Robert Temple makes. I do know that the French explorers that Bro. Vincent mentioned is one of them. 

Bro. Vincent I concur with your last statements.


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## Bro. Vincent (May 24, 2013)

widows son said:


> I don't have the cites off hand, but I do know there is many references Robert Temple makes. I do know that the French explorers that Bro. Vincent mentioned is one of them.
> 
> Bro. Vincent I concur with your last statements.



Yeah im gonna check that book  out!


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## widows son (May 24, 2013)

I bought it on amazon for like $30.00 CDN


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## Bro. Vincent (May 25, 2013)

widows son said:


> I bought it on amazon for like $30.00 CDN



I found it. Thanks for the heads up!


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## widows son (May 25, 2013)

No problemo. 

-- I'd like to add that far distance space travel may seem impossible. But that is now. My grandfather was born in southern Italy in 1926 where horse and buggy was still used. He's alive and well today. He has witnessed the great advancement we achieved in the 20th century. And we advance every year exponentially. In 10 years we'll be able to fit 10,000 microchips on the head of a pin. So to say that it would be impossible to travel great distances in space, I think would be cutting ourselves short. I think like every mother, Earth will one day have to say good bye to her children (us) and move on from
Home, and to find new homes and new brothers and sisters of the flesh.


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## Bro. Vincent (May 25, 2013)

widows son said:


> No problemo.
> 
> -- I'd like to add that far distance space travel may seem impossible. But that is now. My grandfather was born in southern Italy in 1926 where horse and buggy was still used. He's alive and well today. He has witnessed the great advancement we achieved in the 20th century. And we advance every year exponentially. In 10 years we'll be able to fit 10,000 microchips on the head of a pin. So to say that it would be impossible to travel great distances in space, I think would be cutting ourselves short. I think like every mother, Earth will one day have to say good bye to her children (us) and move on from
> Home, and to find new homes and new brothers and sisters of the flesh.



Yeah but im saying the ancients were "going " to these places back then... Today is not aWe simply trying to figure out how it was done in the past. Nothing under the sun is new. Nothing! It just repeats until the creator says EN


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Sorry I pressed send before I finished my thought.
 What I was trying to say is the ancients say they actually going to these places. This was not fantasy. It's like the movie Matrix. We are stuck I this reality which anything else seems impossible. 

It's not impossible we're just stuck in this reality.


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## widows son (May 26, 2013)

But how can you say definitively that they did?

If I told you that I travelled to Sirius, would you believe me?


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## Bro. Vincent (May 26, 2013)

widows son said:


> If I told you that I travelled to Sirius, would you believe me?



Hmm that depends. See I understand that if one would have the spiritual power to do that all things are possible. But what i can say is you astral travel when you're dreaming. When you are in a conscious state but can go into that "middle"ground between conscience and subconscious  state all things are possible.  That middle ground, middle, med, meditative state allows you to do alot metaphysical things if you are learned in those sciences. I am not. Maybe you are...I have no idea.


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## Bro. Vincent (May 26, 2013)

widows son said:


> But how can you say definitively that they did?



I say that because there are groups that talk about things and have recorded things from the past and future that they would have absolutely no way of knowing unless they were there but they weren't ...And they say they are in constant communication with their ancestors. This is the job of the high priest. To communicate with the ancestors to lead and guide the people. 


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## Benjamin Baxter (May 27, 2013)

Not I. 

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## dfreybur (May 28, 2013)

Bro. Vincent said:


> But that's just it. You cant see the third star even with a telescope, even today...



Right.  That's my point.  Why should a native language even *have* words for "trinary star system"?  it has to be a translation failure.

Look up at the sky when Sirius is visible and think about that.  Not with a telescope just with your eyes.  Point in the direction of the brightest star in the sky.  What do you see?  Not just one star.  There's a triangle of stars with no need of telescopes.  What got translated as "a trinary star system" had to be wrong.  it had to mean "a triangle of stars".

Are they from another star?  No more than any of us.  That triangle of stars is in the southern sky.  Their ancestors migrated from the south.  They tell tales of water creatures but they live in arid lands.  Their ancestors migrated from a wetter climate.  When not taken literally and when not using unreasonable translation details the difficulties disappear.


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## Bro. Vincent (May 28, 2013)

I cannot say whether or not something was lost in translation, for I am not a linguist. But I simply don't think by chance these people mapped out the heavens and did it simply by looking a the southern skies and going "oh there it is." If that was the case, as you say,  how come no one else spoke of the addditonal stars to Sirius A before them? At least I can't find a record of others writing down they knew of them.  If there was something lost in translation, was it all possbile that the people studying them were the one's who misundrestood what was being conveyed to them? Again many cultures with an holistic culture have a solar or stellar comosicalogical story to their existence. 

My point is there is a reason scientist go and live with these people for years on end to study them...Or why else would they even do it? It is my belief that these holistic cultures, newer and ancient hold sceinces that we can only dream about in the current state we find ourselves in...as for as tales of  water creatures, that again is something that is not umcommon of many newer and ancient holistic cultures. Could these be deities that these people are referring to like the African Yorubas have the water deity Yemaja? Or what the west may call mermaids? And tell tales about them as a learning technique like mother goose storys?

Unless you study these spiritual systems as a whole it is very hard to understand them. I absolutley reject the notion the west has put on the spirtual system Voo Doo or Vodou as evil and/or devil worshipping. This system once understood is a beautiful West African spirtiual system syncretized with Catholicism as well as Santaria. But if you do not understand these systems in it's whole, yes, you are subject to things getting lost in translation and writing it off and it's people. But that did not happen with the Dogon. They are still being studied to this day. So I will say where there is smoke there is fire. People who have spent a considerable amount of time of their lives living with these people want to know how they knew these things.  

And so do I..


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## bruce harris (Jul 3, 2013)

Sirus shows over dc at the same point


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