# Visitation between A.F.&A.M and F&A.M



## Jorge Rojas Jr (Dec 15, 2013)

Are there Regulations on this issue? I'm a new PHA and I've heard different answers from some of the brothers.

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## masonicdove (Dec 15, 2013)

First off welcome to the craft brother! Visitation between PHA and for the lack of a better term, mainstream depends upon the state. So check with your lodge to see if your grand lodge has recognition or visitation.


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## Jorge Rojas Jr (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks Brother

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## Brother JC (Dec 15, 2013)

One of my GLs is AF&AM, one is F&AM, and one doesn't use either designation...
There are much deeper considerations to visitation.


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## Plustax (Dec 15, 2013)

I think some are under misconception that F&AM and AF&AM are Mainstream and PHA which is not the case at all. I was raised in a F&AM(GA) and now reside in Texas under a AF&AM lodge(endowed member). Both are "mainstream or Blue" lodges. I heard that same comment/assumption about a month ago from a Bro mason during a conversation. He also said that there was a difference (as he thought) between a "3" letter & a "4" letter mason which he was thinking F&AM and AF&AM. I tried to explain that what was really meant was "PHA" and "Blue" or "Main", but he refused to understand or acknowledge that. So I left it alone so as not to create hard feelings. MHO is that I wish we could all be "as one". Whatever happened in history that caused a separation is that..... History... Good to know... Good to learn from, but must now move on. It's much like people hating the confederate flag or "rehashing" what happened in history. It was bad, it was awful, but it happened & brought us to where we are.... Many things better and many things still needing to be better. However, it happened and it can never be changed. We must move on.... Not forget... Just move on and what better place than to bring masonry back together as one. Unfortunately I feel there is too much politics & power involved by both PHA and Mainstream.


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## Jorge Rojas Jr (Dec 16, 2013)

I have a friend that isn't from the craft but grandfather was. Grady Hemphill as had great things to say about his influence in his life. He now passed but was part of the Julian Field lodge held in downtown Fort Worth. I would love to set in a meeting in respects of a great friend. 

To me it's all the same according to our obligation. But I'd love to meet new brothers in the DFW Texas Metroplex. 

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## mrpierce17 (Mar 23, 2014)

Jorge Rojas Jr said:


> Are there Regulations on this issue? I'm a new PHA and I've heard different answers from some of the brothers.
> 
> Sent from my LG-P769 using My Freemasonry mobile app


Depending on weather your talking about mainstream A.F.&.A.M lodges or black 4 letter lodges  if a brother claims to be a Prince Hall mason his lodge should be styled F.&.A.M. ....Anything else is considered clandestine...it is much easier to just ask what Grand Lodge are you operating under there are  only 2 that are recognized per state the Grand Lodge of state and The Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of state you can simply check grand lodge of state mainstream or P.H.A. use the lodge locater and see if the said lodge is listed 

Bro.R.Pierce
Friendly Lodge #436 F&.A.M.
M.W.U.G.L.of.FL , P.H.A


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## tldubb (Mar 25, 2014)

The best advice is contact your GL, they should have a listing of GLs,  that they recognize. .ie visitation. 



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## Squire Bentley (May 3, 2014)

Texas does not have visitation between Prince Hall & Mainstream Freemasonry. This is the way the Grand Lodge of Texas AF & Am wants it.


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## MRichard (May 3, 2014)

Squire Bentley said:


> Texas does not have visitation between Prince Hall & Mainstream Freemasonry. This is the way the Grand Lodge of Texas AF & Am wants it.



From what I have read on this website, that may not be entirely true. Prince Hall requested recognition but not visitation. More likely both grand lodges are partly to blame to some degree.

http://www.myfreemasonry.com/showth...Lodges?highlight=visitation+texas+prince+hall


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## Squire Bentley (May 3, 2014)

That is an entirely false statement


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## MRichard (May 3, 2014)

I edited my previous post to include a link to what I read on this site about the issue.


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## Squire Bentley (May 3, 2014)

We had this discussion on this board a couple of years ago. DDGMs from the Grand Lodge of Texas were spreading the story that Prince Hall requested a no visitation policy at the time of recognition. This just wasn't true and my Grand Master confirmed that position. As a matter of fact to clear up any ambiguity Grand Master Wilbert. M. Curtis of the MWPHGLTX sent a letter to the Grand Master of Texas stating that Prince Hall was ready at any time for open visitation as it always has been. I believe that Brother Bowden has written on this subject. Have you referenced his works?


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## MRichard (May 3, 2014)

Squire Bentley said:


> We had this discussion on this board a couple of years ago. DDGMs from the Grand Lodge of Texas were spreading the story that Prince Hall requested a no visitation policy at the time of recognition. This just wasn't true and my Grand Master confirmed that position. As a matter of fact to clear up any ambiguity Grand Master Wilbert. M. Curtis of the MWPHGLTX sent a letter to the Grand Master of Texas stating that Prince Hall was ready at any time for open visitation as it always has been. I believe that Brother Bowden has written on this subject. Have you referenced his works?



This is a post from Brother Bowden on the subject. 
http://www.myfreemasonry.com/showth...am-Freemasonry?p=110456&viewfull=1#post110456


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## bupton52 (May 3, 2014)

Hopefully things will change and we won't have to figure out who is to blame for what. Let's put our energy into seeing that happen. I'm sure we could get it done. 

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## Squire Bentley (May 4, 2014)

MRichard said:


> This is a post from Brother Bowden on the subject.
> http://www.myfreemasonry.com/showth...am-Freemasonry?p=110456&viewfull=1#post110456



I love Brother Bowden like he was my blood Brother. But the truth be told, neither Grand Lodge is going to allow anybody below Grand Master to negotiate this kind of a deal. There are no playmakers that will change this other than they change the mind of their own Grand Master. That is just Masonic protocol. You and I may not like it, but that is the way things are done.

I reiterate the fact: The Grand Master of the MWPHGLTX sent a letter to the Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Texas declaring that Prince Hall was ready for full cross visitation as it always has been. Some time after a meeting was scheduled between the two Grand Masters but Prince Hall pulled out when it was informed that the GL of Texas had changed the subject and would be giving the Prince Hall GL a dressing down at the scheduled meeting.

The best way to accomplish cross visitation is for each of us to work within our Grand Lodges to get each Grand Lodge to vote in Grand Session to move ahead on this issue and approve it. If each Grand Master will bring the issue to the floor of his Grand Lodge session and put it to a vote, then maybe we can get it done. So the best course of action is to work hard on this issue only within your own Grand Lodge. 

I would be happy to write and publish an article on the subject if Brothers would give me the information necessary to present the issue publicly.

                                                                                                                                                                          Frederic L. Milliken
                                                                                                                                                                          "The Beehive"


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## MRichard (May 4, 2014)

Squire Bentley said:


> I love Brother Bowden like he was my blood Brother. But the truth be told, neither Grand Lodge is going to allow anybody below Grand Master to negotiate this kind of a deal. There are no playmakers that will change this other than they change the mind of their own Grand Master. That is just Masonic protocol. You and I may not like it, but that is the way things are done.
> 
> I reiterate the fact: The Grand Master of the MWPHGLTX sent a letter to the Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Texas declaring that Prince Hall was ready for full cross visitation as it always has been. Some time after a meeting was scheduled between the two Grand Masters but Prince Hall pulled out when it was informed that the GL of Texas had changed the subject and would be giving the Prince Hall GL a dressing down at the scheduled meeting.
> 
> ...



I still don't see how it is all the fault of the MWGLoTX even assuming that such a letter was sent out. Theoretically, the MWPHGLTX could have recognized the MWGLoTX and put the ball in their court as Brother Bowden suggested in another post. Then if they did not receive a response, then you could make that argument.

But just as Brother Upton suggested, it will probably wiser to focus on solving the problem rather than placing blame on either party. I think it is safe to say that we both want visitation. I would even hope for dual memberships.


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## JFS61 (May 4, 2014)

My understanding is the GLOTX "changed" the subject when the MWPHLGLTX invaded the sovereign masonic territory of the Ivory Coast. There was no way the GLOTX could precede with further extending masonic relations with a Grand Lodge that had invaded the territory of a Grand Lodge that GLOTX was in amity with. My understanding is that the situation is in the process of being/has been resolved, and hopefully things will get back on track.

I do agree with others, that trying to place the blame on one side or other (which too many here seem to be doing) is counterproductive, especially without knowing all the work going on behind the scenes. In fact, why not give Brother Normand (head of the GLOTX Fraternal Relations Committee) a call, as I understand he is quite accessible and would probably be more than willing to discuss the situation with any brother.


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## Squire Bentley (May 4, 2014)

_"assuming that such a letter was sent out."

_There is no assuming, it's a fact. A letter was sent. This is not a matter of opinion. A fact is a fact. If the Grand Lodge of Texas is not acknowledging the receipt of such a letter let me know. And I wonder what information you have to question the possibility that such a letter was not sent.

Recognition between the two Grand Lodges was done years ago, my Brother. I don't get what you are saying. At the time the compact was signed the MWPHGLTX suggested that there be mutual visitation and the Grand Lodge of Texas said no. Prince Hall has since that Compact approached the subject with the Grand Lodge of Texas. In all cases it is Prince Hall suggesting the cross visitation and the Grand Lodge of Texas saying NO.. The ball is in the court of the Grand Lodge of Texas.

Now if what you are suggesting is that the MWPHGLTX allow Brethren from the Grand Lodge of Texas to visit their Lodges while the Grand Lodge of Texas continues to say no to Prince Hall Masons visiting their Lodges, I have one thing to say - GET REAL! Don't you see it has to be a mutual agreement?

I'm really not into passing out the blame, but the record must be set straight when one side is not telling the truth.


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## MRichard (May 4, 2014)

Squire Bentley said:


> _"assuming that such a letter was sent out."
> 
> _There is no assuming, it's a fact. A letter was sent. This is not a matter of opinion. A fact is a fact. If the Grand Lodge of Texas is not acknowledging the receipt of such a letter let me know. And I wonder what information you have to question the possibility that such a letter was not sent.
> 
> ...



Earlier you asked me to reference some of Brother Bowden's works on the subject matter. That was one of his suggestions earlier. http://www.myfreemasonry.com/showth...ream-Freemasonry?p=85972&viewfull=1#post85972 . 

Also, MWPHGLAR has done something similar. I believe this is your blog. http://www.freemasoninformation.com...-master-cleveland-wilson-takes-the-high-road/

I used the term assuming to get past a subject matter without debating the veracity of it anymore. Hence, your version of events could very well be accurate.


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## MRichard (May 4, 2014)

Squire Bentley said:


> That is an entirely false statement



http://www.myfreemasonry.com/showthread.php/742-Prince-Hall-Questions?p=4602&viewfull=1#post4602

You indicated earlier that visitation was not requested because it had been privately demanded by GLoTX it not be requested.


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## dfreybur (May 5, 2014)

Squire Bentley said:


> But the truth be told, neither Grand Lodge is going to allow anybody below Grand Master to negotiate this kind of a deal. There are no playmakers that will change this other than they change the mind of their own Grand Master. That is just Masonic protocol. You and I may not like it, but that is the way things are done.



This is only partially correct.  While a GM is able to negotiate recognition agreements they are only able to ratify them temporarily by edict.  It takes a vote on the GL floor at annual communication for the agreement to be ratified.  Here's the kicker - It's been since 2002 and no GM on either side has done so yet.  The time to wait on the GMs is over.

At this point the key is to work the process from the bottom up.  Back a few months ago the MWPHAGLofTX passed some resolution from the floor having to do with a new recognition agreement but it has not seen public release so I figure it's time to work as though it didn't happen.  In the GLofTX this month is the deadline for submitting resolutions.  At my stated meeting in Victory 1160 this month I will present the resolution I quote below and try to get the pedestal officers to sign and forward it.  I will be happy if brothers in any/every other GLofTX lodge use my wording and submit as well.



> Some time after a meeting was scheduled between the two Grand Masters but Prince Hall pulled out when it was informed that the GL of Texas had changed the subject and would be giving the Prince Hall GL a dressing down at the scheduled meeting.



The Ivory Coast invasion has ended.  This self inflicted delay is no longer an issue.  If it were between GMs it would thus be up to MW GM Curtis to reschedule because he is the one who cancelled over a territorial invasion.  But I am far past thinking it is between GMs or that it should be up to GMs.



> The best way to accomplish cross visitation is for each of us to work within our Grand Lodges to get each Grand Lodge to vote in Grand Session to move ahead on this issue and approve it.



Direct submission of legislation by the published process through the Gr Sec office not through the GM.  Waiting on the GMs has been a losing strategy since 2002.  The time to wait on them is over.



> I would be happy to write and publish an article on the subject if Brothers would give me the information necessary to present the issue publicly.



Or use this one which I have quoted on this forum on several occasions -

Whereas the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas has been recognized for several years by the Grand Lodge of Texas, the United Grand Lodge of England and many other regular and recognized jurisdictions, and

Whereas there has previously been in place a custom recognition compact in place between the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas and the Grand Lodge of Texas, which compact did not include visitation, and

Whereas standard recognition compact between regular and recognized jurisdictions includes visitation, dual affiliation with jurisdictions that support dual affiliation and all of the traditional amenities between regular and recognized jurisdictions, therefore

Be it resolved that the Grand Lodge of Texas offer the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas the full standard and traditional compact of recognition to replace the previous compact bringing our jurisdictions from partial amity to full amity.

Be it further resolved that the Grand Lodge of Texas offer the full standard and traditional compact of recognition to all other Prince Hall Grand Lodges that have been recognized in their respective states, this offer to replace any previous compacts.

Be it further resolved that the Grand Lodge of Texas offer the full standard and traditional compact of recognition to Prince Hall Grand Lodges as their states achieve recognition.

Respectfully submitted,






Lots of signatures of WMs, SWs, JWs, PMs, DDGMs and various other enthusiasts

Cc: Committee on Fraternal Relations, Committee on Legislation, Grand Secretary's office, elected grand line officers, (MWPHGLofTX Grand Secretary?)


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## Bro. David F. Hill (May 10, 2014)

That was done last year and passed by the craft.  Been waiting on the Grand Lodge of Texas to do the same.


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## dfreybur (May 10, 2014)

Bro. David F. Hill said:


> That was done last year and passed by the craft.  Been waiting on the Grand Lodge of Texas to do the same.



I am interested in the wording of the proposal that passed.  The one I will submit next week includes correcting recognition agreements with all states and blanket recognition going forward.  I figure it's the right thing to ask for.


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## Glen Cook (Jun 3, 2014)

JFS61 said:


> My understanding is the GLOTX "changed" the subject when the MWPHLGLTX invaded the sovereign masonic territory of the Ivory Coast. There was no way the GLOTX could precede with further extending masonic relations with a Grand Lodge that had invaded the territory of a Grand Lodge that GLOTX was in amity with. My understanding is that the situation is in the process of being/has been resolved, and hopefully things will get back on track.
> ...
> .[/ QUOTE]
> 
> Did PHA TX invade the territory of Ivory Coast?


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## Levelhead (Jun 11, 2014)

I dont believe that Florida even recognizes Prince Hall at all. But i do know there are lodges here cause my neighbor is a Prince Hall. I dont know him but see the sign on his car. Dont think visitation is accepted either.


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## BroBook (Jun 14, 2014)

Yes my brother The Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge of Florida  is Prince Hall affiliated in fl and no they are not recognized by "Mainstream" neither does Prince Hall recognize them


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## BryanMaloney (Jun 14, 2014)

This situation will eventually resolve with time. The more time passes, the more the "Bobby Lee surrendered but I would'a kept on fightin'" generation will leave the world.


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## tldubb (Jun 15, 2014)

BroBook said:


> Yes my brother The Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge of Florida  is Prince Hall affiliated in fl and no they are not recognized by "Mainstream" neither does Prince Hall recognize them
> 
> 
> Bro Book
> ...


Brother your saying that Prince Hall Affiliated GL's don't recognize MWUGL of Florida? 

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## dfreybur (Jun 15, 2014)

tldubb said:


> Brother your saying that Prince Hall Affiliated GL's don't recognize MWUGL of Florida?



That's the problem with using the word "mainstream" even when in quotes.  Both branches are mainstream.  It's why I tend to use the unofficial term "George Washington Affiliated", though I have no interest in any jurisdiction using the expression for any official purpose as that would lead to its own set of issues.


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## MarkR (Jun 16, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> That's the problem with using the word "mainstream" even when in quotes.  Both branches are mainstream.  It's why I tend to use the unofficial term "George Washington Affiliated", though I have no interest in any jurisdiction using the expression for any official purpose as that would lead to its own set of issues.


Actually, the problem was that with the way that was worded, it sounds like Prince Hall doesn't recognize The Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge of Florida.  What he meant was that "mainstream" Grand Lodge of Florida doesn't recognize The Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge of Florida, and The Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge of Florida doesn't recognize The Grand Lodge of Florida.


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## BroBook (Jun 17, 2014)

MarkR said:


> Actually, the problem was that with the way that was worded, it sounds like Prince Hall doesn't recognize The Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge of Florida.  What he meant was that "mainstream" Grand Lodge of Florida doesn't recognize The Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge of Florida, and The Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge of Florida doesn't recognize The Grand Lodge of Florida.


 It was worded like that because I was referring to the previous inquiry as far Georgia goes I have no idea!!! 



Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## BroBook (Jun 17, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> That's the problem with using the word "mainstream" even when in quotes.  Both branches are mainstream.  It's why I tend to use the unofficial term "George Washington Affiliated", though I have no interest in any jurisdiction using the expression for any official purpose as that would lead to its own set of issues.


I have asked this question before to no avail , I will rephrase it, it is a fact of History that what is now called Prince Hall Masonry was once called African Grand Lodge Masonry:what were the none Africans called or more importantly what did/ do they call themselves?!!!!


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## MarkR (Jun 18, 2014)

BroBook said:


> I have asked this question before to no avail , I will rephrase it, it is a fact of History that what is now called Prince Hall Masonry was once called African Grand Lodge Masonry:what were the none Africans called or more importantly what did/ do they call themselves?!!!!


Just "Grand Lodge of (State)."


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## goldsquare (Oct 8, 2014)

I am a newly raised MM under MWUGL of FL at St. Petersburg lodge #109. But our grand lodge was founded under the PH Grand Lodge of Pennsylanvia via Hiram Lodge #3, we can trace our lineage to African Lodge #459. We are Prince Hall Affiliated, but in my studies I found out brothers that are raised in other PH lodges apply for membership with the home lodge in Massachusetts.


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## bupton52 (Oct 9, 2014)

goldsquare said:


> I am a newly raised MM under MWUGL of FL at St. Petersburg lodge #109. But our grand lodge was founded under the PH Grand Lodge of Pennsylanvia via Hiram Lodge #3, we can trace our lineage to African Lodge #459. We are Prince Hall Affiliated, but in my studies I found out brothers that are raised in other PH lodges apply for membership with the home lodge in Massachusetts.



I don't completely understand what you are saying @goldsquare


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## dfreybur (Oct 9, 2014)

goldsquare said:


> We are Prince Hall Affiliated, but in my studies I found out brothers that are raised in other PH lodges apply for membership with the home lodge in Massachusetts.



Does this mean that African Lodge still exists and accepts remote petitions for affiliation?  Sounds to me like a pride in heritage issue rather like the recent trend of brothers petitioning UGLE's Internet Lodge.  Great idea both.

Some PHA jurisdictions only allow a brother to be a member of one lodge.  Do they make an exception for African Lodge?  There are single affiliation jurisdictions that allow membership in research lodges as they don't compete for membership.


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## tldubb (Oct 9, 2014)

Any member of a MWPHGL can join African Lodge #459, this is more of symbolic membership we go once a year for visitation with the mother lodge MWPHGL of MA. The membership to AL#459 is not mandatory for any PHA masons... check it out www.princehall.org. FYI


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## Bro. David F. Hill (Oct 9, 2014)

Let me explain;  This is basically a fundraiser.  You pay your $100 fee, and get honorary membership in the lodge.  Membership includes: Certificate, Dues Card, Medallion (numbered), and a copy of the Original Charter of African Lodge No. 459.  And this is not for Prince Hall only.  http://www.princehall.org/Forms/459 application 2013.pdf


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## tldubb (Oct 9, 2014)

Did I say only Prince hall masons?


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## tldubb (Oct 9, 2014)

FYI I was referring to Bro. Goldsquare post, and also you have to affiliated with the PH Grand Lodge or "mainstream" lodge that is affiliated with MWPHGL of MA.


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## tldubb (Oct 9, 2014)

Anything else you need to explain about what I posted?


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## goldsquare (Oct 10, 2014)

Thank you Bro. Hill and tldubb.


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## EQNUPE (Oct 13, 2014)

As far as recognition and visitation, in my humble opinion, we all know there is an elephant in the room. My question is which is more important, peace and harmony, or ACTUALLY living certain Obligations taken? And if we don't do everything within our individual strength, are we not part of the problem, as a mere bystander?


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## BryanMaloney (Oct 13, 2014)

What is more important, inhaling or exhaling? Try doing only one.


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## dfreybur (Oct 13, 2014)

EQNUPE said:


> As far as recognition and visitation, in my humble opinion, we all know there is an elephant in the room.



I can think of two.

First brothers tend think it is the responsibility of the grand line not of the brethren.  Our order has a bicameral system.  The grand line executes policies set by legislation.  The delegates at grand lodge submit and vote upon legislation.  While I'd like the grand line to be proactive on topics that interest me they generally aren't.

Look up your jurisdiction's process for legislation and see what steps you would need to take to submit legislation without waiting on the grand line.  Find out who your lodge's voting delegates are.  Seriously consider going through the line so that you are one of the brothers who can sign and submit - I'm a PM in 2 of my 3 jurisdictions so I can submit in 2 of my 3 jurisdictions.  In the third I have to convince at least 1 PM.  I say we on the ground need to get past the idea that someone else in our own jurisdiction needs to do it.

Second brothers tend to think it is the responsibility of other jurisdictions - We're the senior jurisdiction so they should ask.  Won't that be a problem with other jurisdictions.  I say we on the ground need to get past the idea that other jurisdictions matter when it comes to recognition.  One idea I say we need to get past is worrying that any one granting of recognition be mutual.  Take the moral high ground proactively and let other jurisdictions be reactive.

Some jurisdictions have recognition come to vote every few years.  Some jurisdictions just wait.  Failing a vote isn't my problem; failing to work on legislation that comes to a vote is my problem - That's the elephant I see in the room.  Elephants travel in herds, which one do you see?


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## EQNUPE (Oct 13, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> What is more important, inhaling or exhaling? Try doing only one.


That analogy doesn't quite fit the context of my question. A better one would be, if you are a smoker, would you like the truth, that is uncomfortable, but for your greater health? Or not have that conversation, because smoking is what you have always done?
Self destructive behaviors must be confronted head on...


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## EQNUPE (Oct 13, 2014)

I a


dfreybur said:


> I can think of two.
> 
> First brothers tend think it is the responsibility of the grand line not of the brethren.  Our order has a bicameral system.  The grand line executes policies set by legislation.  The delegates at grand lodge submit and vote upon legislation.  While I'd like the grand line to be proactive on topics that interest me they generally aren't.
> 
> ...


 I appreciate that education good Brother. You gave me a lot to think on. I have plans on doing just that. I'm also an advocate of grassroots, out of the box approaches. What is stopping these different brothers from say, meeting in a park, and having some non-Masonic, honest conversations? Voluntary attendance, where men can meet on level, and gain insight, empathy, and understanding? I mean that is kinda what "brotherhood" is about right? Too radical? Maybe so....


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## Glen Cook (Oct 13, 2014)

EQNUPE said:


> As far as recognition and visitation, in my humble opinion, we all know there is an elephant in the room. My question is which is more important, peace and harmony, or ACTUALLY living certain Obligations taken? And if we don't do everything within our individual strength, are we not part of the problem, as a mere bystander?


Which obligation do you think governs this?


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## Bill Lins (Oct 13, 2014)

Doing what you know to be right trumps all else. Peace and harmony comes from how one goes about doing what is right.


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## mrpierce17 (Oct 14, 2014)

The recognition thing that really gets me is my patent/certificate says TO ALL FREE AND EXCEPTED MASONS ON THE FACE OF THE GLOBE  not just Florida jurisdiction??? But what do I know I'm a new M.M.


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## BryanMaloney (Oct 14, 2014)

mrpierce17 said:


> The recognition thing that really gets me is my patent/certificate says TO ALL FREE AND EXCEPTED MASONS ON THE FACE OF THE GLOBE  not just Florida jurisdiction??? But what do I know I'm a new M.M.



And I could make up a group that hands out little certificates proclaiming every member a Senator of the United States of America. Doesn't make it truth.


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## mrpierce17 (Oct 14, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> And I could make up a group that hands out little certificates proclaiming every member a Senator of the United States of America. Doesn't make it truth.




So this would lead me to believe that you agree with being challenged or challenging someone to prove that one is a worthy and well qualified brother mason ? If I am wrong please correct me because you're saying a dues called or patent is not sufficient because they can be forged , how would you go about inspecting a potential brother not knowing him to be such?


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## mrpierce17 (Oct 14, 2014)

I also have a question for the brethren  here what is the benefit of having mutual recognition but not visitation how far does this recognition go , I can recognize you and call you brother but I can't sit with you in a tiled meeting and pursue the beautiful light of masonry beside my brother? That's kind of like kissing your sister in my opinion


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## BryanMaloney (Oct 14, 2014)

mrpierce17 said:


> So this would lead me to believe that you agree with being challenged or challenging someone to prove that one is a worthy and well qualified brother mason ? If I am wrong please correct me because you're saying a dues called or patent is not sufficient because they can be forged , how would you go about inspecting a potential brother not knowing him to be such?



It's very simple: If you want to visit, go through channels. That's what lodge secretaries are for. That makes any personal challenge simply pro forma.


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## mrpierce17 (Oct 14, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> It's very simple: If you want to visit, go through channels. That's what lodge secretaries are for. That makes any personal challenge simply pro
> 
> I wasn't talking about visiting I was simply stating what my  patent read on the subject of mutual recognition when I decide to travel I have my secretary call ahead that's just common courtesy anyway I wouldn't want someone just showing up at my house all unannounced lol


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## BryanMaloney (Oct 14, 2014)

A piece of paper is, in the end, just a piece of paper, no matter how fancy.


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## mrpierce17 (Oct 14, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> A piece of paper is, in the end, just a piece of paper, no matter how fancy.



That's right we're all here to serve fish  dinners and cut grass .... Whoops I told a secret across the board


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 14, 2014)

mrpierce17 said:


> The recognition thing that really gets me is my patent/certificate says TO ALL FREE AND EXCEPTED MASONS ON THE FACE OF THE GLOBE  not just Florida jurisdiction??? But what do I know I'm a new M.M.


I'm in the same boat as you, I was raised 8/4/14. We here in Kentucky have recognition between PH and AF&M but no visitation. Does not make sense to me.


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## EQNUPE (Oct 14, 2014)

Glen Cook said:


> Which obligation do you think governs this?


Within a regularly constituted lodge....


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## Glen Cook (Oct 14, 2014)

I don't have that in my obligation and, if I did, I don't see what it has to do with not recognizing some jurisdictions


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## EQNUPE (Oct 14, 2014)

Glen Cook said:


> I don't have that in my obligation and, if I did, I don't see what it has to do with not recognizing some jurisdictions


In the interest of being cautious, I would advise you to refer to the first stanzas of your 1st and 2nd. "Regularly Constituted" speaks for itself, so save the linguistic straining please.


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## Glen Cook (Oct 14, 2014)

Still don't know what you're speaking of.  Remember, not all obligations are the same.  Perhaps you could refer me to the page of Duncan's which has the phrase you are thinking of.  

However, the phrase you mention is appropriate in the discussion, as that is the point: a determination as been made that another GL is not regularly constituted.  That IS in the obligations which most of us share: we do not have masonic intercourse with those who are members of grand lodges/lodges determined not to be regularly constituted.


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## dfreybur (Oct 14, 2014)

mrpierce17 said:


> I also have a question for the brethren  here what is the benefit of having mutual recognition but not visitation how far does this recognition go ...



If you move state to state or country to country and your jurisdiction is recognized by the UGLE, there's a presumption that your jurisdiction is valid.  Most jurisdictions mostly copy the list from UGLE so recognition might already be in place but even if it isn't you're known to not be clandestine.  You should be able to transfer membership.

For jurisdictions that only allow single affiliations this might be reasonable.  Being a member in 4 lodges in 3 jurisdictions at the moment I figure single affiliation rules are from an era that predates planes, trains and automobiles, but your jurisdiction your rules.

As with so many on the board I live in a city area with lodges in both jurisdictions.  When I first moved into the state (Texas in my case) I visited both until I ran out the maximum time and affiliated with one.  I don't have to understand I just have to follow the rules.  And work within the rules to get them changed.


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## Mindovermatter Ace (Oct 28, 2014)

I can tell you for a fact that there are only one or two PHA Lodges and or GLs that are AF&AMs. If you run across any more than that, it's more than likely bogus.


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## bupton52 (Oct 31, 2014)

The PHGL of Liberia is AF&AM @Mindovermatter Ace


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## Mindovermatter Ace (Nov 24, 2014)

Well I stand corrected, however to my knowledge there is only one the USA


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## tldubb (Nov 24, 2014)

FYI http://www.conferenceofgrandmasterspha.org/


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## Mindovermatter Ace (Nov 25, 2014)

bupton52 said:


> The PHGL of Liberia is AF&AM @Mindovermatter Ace



Can you tell me when did they receive their charter, and from what governing lodge or GL?


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## tldubb (Nov 25, 2014)

FYI http://grandlodgeofliberia.org/pages1.php?pgID=36


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## Bill Lins (Dec 18, 2014)

mrpierce17 said:


> I also have a question for the brethren  here what is the benefit of having mutual recognition but not visitation how far does this recognition go , I can recognize you and call you brother but I can't sit with you in a tiled meeting and pursue the beautiful light of masonry beside my brother? That's kind of like kissing your sister in my opinion


That is why we in Texas, both PHA and GLoTX, have worked so hard in the past few years to get the privileges of Masonry approved. Without them, recognition just didn't mean much.


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