# Where is the value add?



## David612 (Nov 20, 2017)

So my lodge just celebrated their 90th which makes me very happy, but after this past meeting where there was nothing beyond a business meeting and a meal I’m finding it hard to find the value here, I’m only a few months in (8-9 meetings) I love the guys in my lodge but really is this what I’m gonna get out of freemasonry?
Cleaning dishes, more lodge business meetings and the occasional education tid bit.. 
at times I think I’m better just buying books and educating myself, sure I’d attend lodge but skip the south as I’m just not getting value there.
I’m very frustrated, my brothers are great guys and are full of Masonic knowledge, what am I missing here...
Am I expecting too much?


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 20, 2017)

David612 said:


> skip the south as I’m just not getting value there.



What do you mean by this?

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## chrmc (Nov 20, 2017)

Find a different lodge that does what you're looking for. Potentially take a look at TO styled lodges, they tend to focus more on education, though you can also find that in many other good lodges.


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## BroCaution (Nov 20, 2017)

Try to influence the environment you seek. Maybe you'll be the spark.


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## Brother_Steve (Nov 20, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> What do you mean by this?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


Most if not all the members in my Lodge sit on the south side during the meetings at my lodge. So if someone said that in my lodge, I'd take it as skipping the meeting. It's the best conclusion I could draw on that.

Then again, there is an allusion to the JW chair during the third (jurisdictional)


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## dfreybur (Nov 20, 2017)

I go for the fellowship.  You experience experience meetings and ask if there's more.  I experience business meetings and say that's what they are for.

Time for you to attend other than just the Stated meetings where we pay our bills.  Interested in ritual?  Degree team time.  Interested in charity?  There's a group of brothers in every district that do that.  Interested in history and meaning?  Time to stand up at every Stated meeting and make a presentation, oh and also notice which appendant body offers that material.  There are more than just Lodge of Research.


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## Brother_Steve (Nov 20, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> I go for the fellowship.  You business experience meetings and ask if there's more.  I business experience meetings and say that's what they are for.
> 
> Time for you to attend other than just the Stated meetings where we pay our bills.  Interested in ritual?  Degree team time.  Interested in charity?  There's a group of brothers in every district that do that.  Interested in history and meaning?  Time to stand up at every Stated meeting and make a presentation, oh and also notice which appendant body offers that material.  There are more than just Lodge of Research.


I also find that going through the chairs helps although he's making a time commitment if he chooses to explore leadership.


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 20, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> Time for you to attend other than just the Stated meetings where we pay our bills. Interested in ritual? Degree team time. Interested in charity? There's a group of brothers in every district that do that. Interested in history and meaning? Time to stand up at every Stated meeting and make a presentation, oh and also notice which appendant body offers that material. There are more than just Lodge of Research.


Very true!


Brother_Steve said:


> I also find that going through the chairs helps although he's making a time commitment if he chooses to explore leadership.


Agreed!


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## David612 (Nov 20, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> What do you mean by this?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


The meal after lodge


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## coachn (Nov 20, 2017)

David612 said:


> So my lodge just celebrated their 90th which makes me very happy, but after this past meeting where there was nothing beyond a business meeting and a meal I’m finding it hard to find the value here, I’m only a few months in (8-9 meetings) I love the guys in my lodge but really is this what I’m gonna get out of freemasonry?


In the USA, yes, mostly.


David612 said:


> Cleaning dishes, more lodge business meetings and the occasional education tid bit..
> at times I think I’m better just *buying books and educating myself*,...


Just?  You'd be better off doing this REGARDLESS of your lodge experience.  Education is a SOLO journey, unless you hunker down and bring it INTO the lodge.


David612 said:


> ... sure I’d attend lodge but skip the south as I’m just not getting value there.
> I’m very frustrated, ...


You're not alone, and please understand, most of it is self caused.  Freemasonry was never designed to educate.  It was designed to train and the target audience is replacements.


David612 said:


> ...my brothers are great guys and are full of Masonic knowledge, what am I missing here...
> Am I expecting too much?


Yes.  You are expecting too much.  However, don't stop expecting it!   You can be the change you seek and you can provide the very thing to others who are like minded and like hearted.  All it takes is self initiative, self direction and self study.  If you add to all this finding others who want to play along, you have the lodge you expected.  If you want to know what is possible, check out all the links on my signature.  I expected too much too and made an entire network of like minded and like hearted brothers as a result of my own initiatives, directions and study efforts.


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## David612 (Nov 20, 2017)

I think the above is indeed correct, personally I think I need to just focus more on what I want to get out of my experience, while it is great to sit and chat with the blokes who have gone befor you I personally am looking for more esoteric knowledge, more philosophy and more intellectual work.  
I will say however as far as being the change I want to see, it’s not really my race to run, I do read and educate myself but where I am in my life, new career, looking to start a family, homeowner etc I’m not going to spend the little bit of time I have trying to change it.


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## JJones (Nov 20, 2017)

David612 said:


> So my lodge just celebrated their 90th which makes me very happy, but after this past meeting where there was nothing beyond a business meeting and a meal I’m finding it hard to find the value here, I’m only a few months in (8-9 meetings) I love the guys in my lodge but really is this what I’m gonna get out of freemasonry?
> Cleaning dishes, more lodge business meetings and the occasional education tid bit..
> at times I think I’m better just buying books and educating myself, sure I’d attend lodge but skip the south as I’m just not getting value there.
> I’m very frustrated, my brothers are great guys and are full of Masonic knowledge, what am I missing here...
> Am I expecting too much?



I went inactive for a few years shortly after I was raised for this same reason. This happens very often, unfortunately, and it wasn't until I came across this website and to educate myself that I came to realize that our organization is nowhere as mundane as our stated meetings has led me to believe.

Education yourself but remain active. Share what you've learned with other brothers and make education presentations during stated meetings. You're not the only mason who feels this way but too many men shrug their shoulders and walk away instead of working to create the change they desire. It's a tough but worthwhile endeavor and both yourself and your lodge will benefit from it.


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## acjohnson53 (Nov 20, 2017)

What he is saying is that it's the same all over which you expect more from your Lodge instead of the same ol open and closing, occasional degree work. But it was told to me that our Lodge does not do fund raisings, make our self visible to our community, and giving to a cause...."I was told that", Now I was raised in the early 90's in a military Lodge where every year where I was stationed our Lodge was very visible, we donated back packs and school supplies, we had car washes to support that, in other words we kept that money earned working for a cause....Where as Freemasons we are bounded by these three words, "Faith, Hope, and Charity. Being that the holifay season is upon us let's keep in our thought...


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## acjohnson53 (Nov 20, 2017)

Brother Jones very nicely said, I highly agree on statement....


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## David612 (Nov 20, 2017)

JJones said:


> I went inactive for a few years shortly after I was raised for this same reason. This happens very often, unfortunately, and it wasn't until I came across this website and to educate myself that I came to realize that our organization is nowhere as mundane as our stated meetings has led me to believe.
> 
> Education yourself but remain active. Share what you've learned with other brothers and make education presentations during stated meetings. You're not the only mason who feels this way but too many men shrug their shoulders and walk away instead of working to create the change they desire. It's a tough but worthwhile endeavor and both yourself and your lodge will benefit from it.


Thanks for your input Brother.
I think you are right on the money.


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## acjohnson53 (Nov 20, 2017)

Being a Master Mason gives you the right to research and educate yourself. Fore that is where Knowledge is gained....


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## JJones (Nov 20, 2017)

David612 said:


> Thanks for your input Brother.
> I think you are right on the money.



Thanks. It's also been mentioned that you might look into Traditional Observance lodges (TO lodges). I've visited one of these and really enjoyed it but there isn't one close enough for me to visit regularly. That one visit was one of the best Masonic experiences I've had though, so you might consider looking for one in your area and try it out.


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## David612 (Nov 20, 2017)

JJones said:


> Thanks. It's also been mentioned that you might look into Traditional Observance lodges (TO lodges). I've visited one of these and really enjoyed it but there isn't one close enough for me to visit regularly. That one visit was one of the best Masonic experiences I've had though, so you might consider looking for one in your area and try it out.


I’m not sure that there is anything like that in my area.. I’ll email grand lodge and see what they come back with.


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## JJones (Nov 20, 2017)

David612 said:


> I’m not sure that there is anything like that in my area.. I’ll email grand lodge and see what they come back with.



You might have more success finding one nearby here.


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## David612 (Nov 20, 2017)

im not in the USA so my chances of finding a lodge like this are minimal.
I’m interested to see what GL come back with.


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## Keith C (Nov 20, 2017)

David612 said:


> I think the above is indeed correct, personally I think I need to just focus more on what I want to get out of my experience, while it is great to sit and chat with the blokes who have gone befor you I personally am looking for more esoteric knowledge, more philosophy and more intellectual work.
> I will say however as far as being the change I want to see, it’s not really my race to run, I do read and educate myself but where I am in my life, new career, looking to start a family, homeowner etc I’m not going to spend the little bit of time I have trying to change it.


\

One of the often said phrases when discussing Freemasonry is "You get out of it what you put into it."  If you don't like how your lodge works, but are unwilling or unable to put in the time and effort to make it better, what are YOU putting in to get what you want out of the Fraternity?


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## David612 (Nov 20, 2017)

Keith C said:


> \
> 
> One of the often said phrases when discussing Freemasonry is "You get out of it what you put into it."  If you don't like how your lodge works, but are unwilling or unable to put in the time and effort to make it better, what are YOU putting in to get what you want out of the Fraternity?


Yeah that’s not actually true though is it, if I put in more then I will have put in more.. I won’t get more out at all as the proceedings arnt my specific interest.. 
It take all sorts of cause but I think opting to make short work for the evening because we have guests or the meal is ready is a mistake personally obviously many disagree however it’s our work that makes us different from rotary and we should, in my opinion, prioritise it.


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 20, 2017)

David612 said:


> Yeah that’s not actually true though is it, if I put in more then I will have put in more.. I won’t get more out at all as the proceedings arnt my specific interest..


Not true.....by putting in more work, then say me, to understand what the teachings of the degrees are then you will get out a better understanding of the degrees then I would.  There for you put in more and got out more.

If you put in time and effort to put together a presentation for a meeting then you get the satisfaction of knowing you put out info to brothers to do what they will with and the knowledge you gained from researching the topic.   Again...more in more out.....

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## Ripcord22A (Nov 20, 2017)

Also just by being on forums like this and partaking on discussion like this....

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## David612 (Nov 20, 2017)

Don’t get me wrong there is huge value in the menial work of lodge function BUT when that is all there is this time is better spent, in my opinion in study, reflection working ritual.


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## Bloke (Nov 20, 2017)

David612 said:


> So my lodge just celebrated their 90th which makes me very happy, but after this past meeting where there was nothing beyond a business meeting and a meal I’m finding it hard to find the value here, I’m only a few months in (8-9 meetings) I love the guys in my lodge but really is this what I’m gonna get out of freemasonry?
> Cleaning dishes, more lodge business meetings and the occasional education tid bit..
> at times I think I’m better just buying books and educating myself, sure I’d attend lodge but skip the south as I’m just not getting value there.
> I’m very frustrated, my brothers are great guys and are full of Masonic knowledge, what am I missing here...
> Am I expecting too much?


I just added when I was initiated and such to my profile because I looked to see when you were initiated. I'm pretty sure, as your posts suggests, its not long ago.

I think its really important to give Freemasonry a chance, but one of the best things you can do is ask questions. Ironically, Lodge is not always the best place to do that, many of my best masonic discussions have been had at 2 am after beer.

We actually had this exact same conversation at my mother lodge in relation to the question you ask. We talked about professional mentoring, resume help, study groups, presenting papers, supper clubs, baby sitting etc.... One thing we do which is extremely valuable is go away for a weekend. That's when we often have our 2 am conversations - but it also gets the ladies along, and their support after seeing us as a relaxed social group. Fortunately, we do it as a lodge, but there are several groups here who go on "road trips" - I've been on several which have seen me rise at 4 am for a lodge breakfast 300 kms away. The most valuable time is that in the car, all talking, we don;t take girls on the road trip because its about attending a lodge meeting.

Most of the hard core researchers I know, including esoteric ones, do indeed buy and read a lot of books (that said, there is some great content on the web). An interesting discussion is always, is Freemasonry a Team a Solo Pursuit. Its both, but often the solo work you do adds much more to the team than the team work adds to the solo development.

Access to diverse men of varied experience is so important. Not just socially, and developmentally, but also emotionally. They listen and keep your "secrets" in ways other friends dont, they tend to have a different approach to hardship . Friday, I will be at a Brother's Grandmothers funeral, he might have the odd school friend there, but the men attending in force who are not family members will be Brothers.

When a FC, I kinda had the exact same thought you are having - what am I getting out of this ? Mainly because of the relationship with my proposer, I stuck with it, and after making some friends, realized how good it was going to be for me.

After 9 months, you've probably not been in Lodge long enough to even appreciate what you will get out of Freemasonry.

After 14 years I can tell you, in no particular order, I've

Improved my speaking skills (and I was an auctioneer when I joined, so did not start from a low base)
Made some of the best friends with some of the best men (and women) I've ever met.
Feel part of a community steeped in the connection of Brotherhood and not just proximity or frequency.
Got better at commanding people (again, I had staff working under me when I joined, but when Master, I had a different sort of authority than that I had at work)
Developed my memory.
Developed my mentoring ability and take great pride seeing men I've mentored in Leadership Positions.
Via charity, made a real difference via donations (again, I'm involved in an organization which has given $3.5 million away, what we did in Freemasonry was different).
Developed my editorial and writing skills,
Developed my managerial skills.
Developed my sense of the divine.
And generally had a good time. Its not always been easy, but its always been worth it.
Stick with it Bro, but also look outside your lodge for further inspiration.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 20, 2017)

A number of the Rocky Mountain GLs use a variation of the Master Builder program. If your lodge actively pursues this, it will be a busy lodge. See 
http://www.grandlodgemontana.org/forms/Master Builder 2  2012 2013.pdf


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## MarkR (Nov 21, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> A number of the Rocky Mountain GLs use a variation of the Master Builder program. If your lodge actively pursues this, it will be a busy lodge. See
> http://www.grandlodgemontana.org/forms/Master Builder 2 2012 2013.pdf


That looks a lot like our Lodge Recognition Program (for the lodges) and our Masonic Light Award program for individual Masons.


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 21, 2017)

JJones said:


> Education yourself but remain active.





JJones said:


> You're not the only mason who feels this way but too many men shrug their shoulders and walk away instead of working to create the change they desire.





acjohnson53 said:


> Being a Master Mason gives you the right to research and educate yourself. Fore that is where Knowledge is gained....


Agreed! I learn much more about Masonry outside of lodge than I do inside. This forum is a prime example. Study and then bring your knowledge to your lodge Brother.


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## Brent Heilman (Nov 21, 2017)

When I was first raised to Master Mason I was very eager to get in there and start learning everything I could. There is much more to learn than just esoteric. I love the ritual so that is where my biggest focus is and has been. I have sat back and watched and learned from some of the Brothers so much more than I could have just doing it on my own and not picking their brains. If your focus is more esoteric there are several high-quality sources from which to study. Take the things you learn outside the Lodge and bring it in and pass it on to others. 

We had hardly any education during a stated meeting when I first got into the line. As WM I wanted to change that. I found one of the Brothers who was heavy into education and appointed him to be our unofficial Education Officer (that position doesn't officially exist here). Between him and another Brother, there is education at almost every single meeting. We go over the Codes & Constitutions during each meeting also. The Chaplain does some reading. If you want more education in a meeting be the catalyst for the change. If no one ever steps up and takes charge then it will never happen. It is a process of steps, but I can almost guarantee that there are others who feel the same way and will be eager to assist.


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## dfreybur (Nov 21, 2017)

David612 said:


> I think the above is indeed correct, personally I think I need to just focus more on what I want to get out of my experience, while it is great to sit and chat with the blokes who have gone befor you I personally am looking for more esoteric knowledge, more philosophy and more intellectual work.
> I will say however as far as being the change I want to see, it’s not really my race to run, I do read and educate myself but where I am in my life, new career, looking to start a family, homeowner etc I’m not going to spend the little bit of time I have trying to change it.



Here for the esoteric - If you mean mythical or philosophical understand that Masonry is the Masons and the generation before us came for the social aspects.  Mystics are almost unknown among us.  You'll even find many who deny we ever had any.

So yes it is your race to run.  If you don't have time now, we will still be here when you do.  Only 3 centuries so far after all.


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## HoldenMonty (Nov 22, 2017)

I heard the whole you get out of it what you put into it thing several times before I was even raised. It was told to me before I was initiated, and at the night I was initiated, and the night I was passed, and the night I was raised. But I have figured out what they mean. If you go to stated meetings expecting to be taught everything there is to know about every aspect of free masonry then you are going to feel cheated. If you ask questions from the guys who have been Masons for a while then you can learn from them. For example since when you go through the degrees yourself it's hard to learn it as your going through it so watching and learning the degrees helps out a lot. That is where I have started I am in the junior master of ceremony's seat so I learned that easy part pretty quickly but also slowly learning guide part of it because I think I would be useful as a guide for my lodge because the majority of the members are my my dad's age or older.


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## Keith C (Nov 22, 2017)

HoldenMonty said:


> I heard the whole you get out of it what you put into it thing several times before I was even raised. It was told to me before I was initiated, and at the night I was initiated, and the night I was passed, and the night I was raised. But I have figured out what they mean. If you go to stated meetings expecting to be taught everything there is to know about every aspect of free masonry then you are going to feel cheated. If you ask questions from the guys who have been Masons for a while then you can learn from them. For example since when you go through the degrees yourself it's hard to learn it as your going through it so watching and learning the degrees helps out a lot. That is where I have started I am in the junior master of ceremony's seat so I learned that easy part pretty quickly but also slowly learning guide part of it because I think I would be useful as a guide for my lodge because the majority of the members are my my dad's age or older.



JMC was the first chair I sat in at degrees.  You are correct, it is fairly easy to learn the work, but it puts you in a great position to see and hear what is going on.  You just have to be willing to stand, draw your sword, knock, sheath your sword and sit down - A LOT!  You may not be surprised to learn that the Guide and JW work in cahoots to be sure the JW has just enough time to sit down and take a deep breath before there is another set of knocks!  

If you are interested in learning more of the ritual and have not been issued a ritual book, now would be a good time to bring this up with your SW who presumptively will be in the East in a Month.  He likely already has possession of your Lodge's ritual manuals and  may still have some unassigned for those wishing to learn the ritual.


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## HoldenMonty (Nov 22, 2017)

Keith C said:


> If you are interested in learning more of the ritual and have not been issued a ritual book, now would be a good time to bring this up with your SW who presumptively will be in the East in a Month. He likely already has possession of your Lodge's ritual manuals and may still have some unassigned for those wishing to learn the ritual.


 After I was raised I was interested instantly in learning more about the degrees since it's hard to learn them while you are going through it so I signed out a ritual book from my dad who happens to be the Master this year and since his Senior Warden had to step down in the last couple months for his wife's health issues my dad will be the Master this coming year.


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## Symthrell (Nov 22, 2017)

I may be off base here and I know I still have a lot to learn but one thing I can say for certain, the fellowship is the thing that I find most worthwhile. We have dinner before our meetings and while the meals are sometimes nothing to write home about, the time spent talking with the brothers of the lodge is what I most enjoy. The gentlemen in that lodge are worth talking to and getting to know. The experiences they have had are a wellspring of knowledge that you just can't get in many other places! 

I will give you a recent example: Many of the men in the lodge I am a member of are business owners. I have listened to their stories of starting a business, running a business and the heartaches and triumphs. I have heard them talk about dealing with employees and customers, and I have learned a great deal. I have applied many things I learned from them at my current job. It has helped! But the biggest thing is that an opportunity came to start a business with two business associates recently. In the past I would have been too averse to the risk and backed away. After all I had heard and learned from these gentlemen I made the choice to go for it. I am proud to say the business is going well and is already a successful venture. My personal growth thus far has allowed me to make this change in my life, and it is a major change! A change that is also helping my family and for that I am grateful for the time spent twice a month having dinner with men who have lived so much more of their lives than I have thus far. 

I know I will grow personally even more as I study and learn more. The thing is that I have learned far more than I ever dreamed I would and I am just at the beginning!!


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## David612 (Nov 22, 2017)

Great discussion, thank you Brothers.
I have found tremendous value in many of years blogs, podcasts and publications of my brothers which have been invaluable.
Being in my position I am indeed blessed to have friends in other lodges who share their work with me which is to a very high caliber.
My lodge currently had had some trouble and as I try to avoid politics in my extracurricular activities I am not across the details but I gather there have been issues spanning a long while and the Lodge itself is trying to rectify these issues and it is taking up a lot of time that would otherwise be better utilised.


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## HoldenMonty (Nov 27, 2017)

I totally agree with @Symthrell the fellowship is one of the many reasons I go. We have a Mason that has been a Mason for a little over 60 years and is a WWII veteran, I think we have a couple Korean Veterans, a couple Vietnam Veterans and myself. But from being from North Eastern Pennsylvania where the cows outnumber the people the conversations are usually about guns, hunting, or Free Masonry. And a few of them are members of all the associated bodies on the Scottish and York rite sides. And hearing the stories they tell are just awesome.


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 27, 2017)

HoldenMonty said:


> And a few of them are members of all the associated bodies on the Scottish and York rite sides. And hearing the stories they tell are just awesome.


I agree! I love to hear their stories.


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