# Have standards really been lowered?



## LAMason (Jun 3, 2015)

It is not uncommon to see comments similar to the following in Masonic forum discussions:



Browncoat said:


> Over the years as membership dwindled, there was a movement to "dumb down" Freemasonry by lowering dues and lowering standards.





Bob Reed said:


> Instead of dumbing  down let's up the requirements.





Bob Reed said:


> Quality over quantity



First I want to relate *my personal observations* about my Mother Lodge.  *They may not be representative of other Lodges*.  It was chartered in 1893.  I was able to read the minutes going back to 1902.  Other than the large amount of degree work that went on post WWII, the meetings were very similar to recent meetings.

So, I have a few questions:

How has Freemasonry been “dumbed down”?
 When did this “dumbing down” begin?
How have we lowered standards?
How are candidates different now than in the past?
How do you define “quality” as it relates to a petitioner?

I will agree that in terms of inflation adjusted dollars our dues are lower now than in the past.  I am not willing to say that it is the result of an intentional strategy to mitigate the decline in membership as opposed to the membership opting to use “fund raisers” to generate operating revenue.


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## Browncoat (Jun 3, 2015)

There is evidence all around you. How much discussion (both online and amongst Masons) does it take to realize that the problem is real? Individual lodges may vary of course, but the overriding sentiment is that:

Attendance, participation, retention, and recruitment are low
Dues are not adequate
Masons are not fulfilled by their experience
This sums up the vast majority of the discussion of the Craft. Are there lodges that are going above and beyond? Certainly. There has been a mad scrambling in recent years to recruit, recruit, recruit in order to boost numbers. This leaves many Masons who are actually active to wonder who is guarding the West Gate?


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jun 3, 2015)

I think this is an excellent topic that definitely deserves it's own thread.  


LAMason said:


> I have a few questions:
> 
> How has Freemasonry been “dumbed down”?
> When did this “dumbing down” begin?
> ...



First, let me say that I think the people who are using phrases like “dumbed down” are describing something real, something actually lost.  I think that careful exploration of what is different today from years past can shed light on who we are, the situation we find ourselves in, and even on who we want to become.

Fifty years ago my parents used to take me to dinners at the Lodge.  All the women wore formal gowns and the men all wore suits.  (There may have been tuxes, at that age I wouldn't have known the difference)  There was a formal sit down dinner, and someone was busing the tables.  This was in the mid 60''s.  Today there are never any family social events at any of the Lodges where I am a member or attend regularly.  This is a loss.

Fifty years ago I can remember playing in the yard of someone I didn't know while my father was inside the house.  Today I know that my father went there to learn the ritual.  When I began asking Masons to help me learn the ritual I was told "it is all in the book, learn it on your own".  In fact, I have been a Mason for fifteen years and I can still count on my fingers the number of times I have been invited inside another Masons home.  This is a loss.

We have tried to replace the loss of quality social interactions and cementing good friendships by simplifying the ritual, lowering the memory requirements, keeping dues artificially low, and holding One Day Classes.  I think we are addressing the wrong problem.  The value of a thing is determined by comparing the costs in terms of time, dollars, and commitment to the quality of what you receive.  We have allowed the quality of Masonry to become unacceptably low, so we had to lower the cost in order to appeal to the average person.  Are we going to allow ourselves to become the Wal-mart of fraternities?  Only time will tell.


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## Bob Reed (Jun 3, 2015)

LAMason said:


> It is not uncommon to see comments similar to the following in Masonic forum discussions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





LAMason said:


> It is not uncommon to see comments similar to the following in Masonic forum discussions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You win Brother! Standards are different from state to state so you can, and no doubt will, counter anything I say. I don't have the time, energy or inclination to continue. I would much rather converse in a friendly and brotherly manner with others about their thoughts, opinions and experiences in masonry without constantly being challenged. So please have the last word on this matter and refrain from commenting on my posts in the future. I will extend the same courtesy. OUT


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## JJones (Jun 3, 2015)

Just hopping in to give my two cents on a few things:



Browncoat said:


> Attendance, participation, retention, and recruitment are low



My old lodge isn't old by some standards but at over 150 years old, it's old relatively speaking.  150 years ago one  of the big gripes the brethren had was lack of attendance and participation.  Some things don't change (although attendance and participation at the time was likely much higher).

What's wrong with low recruitment?  High recruitment would imply that lots of people are petitioning and being accepted, which means that somewhere along the line we've dropped the ball and began lowering our standards for membership.  Quality and quantity are inverse of one another.

So long as I'm on this subject, I really don't think there's anything you could do that would really increase everything I've quoted above anyhow.  I look at churches as an example of this: there are no standards for membership (anyone is welcome), no dues, no initiations, and they still have problems with attendance, recruitment, and so forth.



LAMason said:


> How has Freemasonry been “dumbed down”?
> 
> When did this “dumbing down” begin?
> 
> ...



Many of the answers you seek would depend on what jurisdiction you're under.

As far as your question about candidates goes, I don't think people have changed, as least not fundamentally.  Their expectations of Freemasonry, however, have changed quite a bit.  They expect something marvelous and we, instead, provide them with a very mundane experience.


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## Browncoat (Jun 3, 2015)

JJones said:


> What's wrong with low recruitment?  High recruitment would imply that lots of people are petitioning and being accepted, which means that somewhere along the line we've dropped the ball and began lowering our standards for membership.  Quality and quantity are inverse of one another.
> 
> So long as I'm on this subject, I really don't think there's anything you could do that would really increase everything I've quoted above anyhow.  I look at churches as an example of this: there are no standards for membership (anyone is welcome), no dues, no initiations, and they still have problems with attendance, recruitment, and so forth.


I don't think there's anything wrong with low recruitment as far as the numbers go, it _should_ be low. However, the reasoning for low numbers seems to be the opposite of what it should be: it's not because lodges are being selective of candidates. It's because there aren't enough candidates interested in Freemasonry, and that's a problem. I know in my area, there has been a push to start DeMolay for many years, and never comes to be, because "reasons".

Church is a great comparison. There are people who attend church simply because they're "supposed to", or it's more of a habit than anything else. If churches focused more on the experience versus ceremony and simply going through the motions, attendance there might improve also.



JJones said:


> As far as your question about candidates goes, I don't think people have changed, as least not fundamentally.  Their expectations of Freemasonry, however, have changed quite a bit.  They expect something marvelous and we, instead, provide them with a very mundane experience.


I agree. Masons often point to the bloated numbers of heyday of Freemasonry as a benchmark, rather than a bubble. There are a lot of things pulling for a man's attention these days, and it's not enough to simply belong to a boy's club just for the sake of belonging. Today's man is expected to help with the baby, making dinner, carting the kids around, and being an active and integral part of the household. This is a stark contrast to yesterday when Monday night was lodge, Tuesday night was bowling, Wednesday night was for the Elks, etc. Communities have evolved to the point where we don't measure the worth of a man by how many clubs he belongs to anymore like in the 50's and 60's.


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## hanzosbm (Jun 3, 2015)

LAMason said:


> First I want to relate *my personal observations* about my Mother Lodge.  *They may not be representative of other Lodges*.  It was chartered in 1893.  I was able to read the minutes going back to 1902.  Other than the large amount of degree work that went on post WWII, the meetings were very similar to recent meetings.



Brother LAMason, not an argument, but a point of clarification; you mentioned reading about meeting minutes going back to 1902.  What type of information was contained in those minutes that would speak to the dumbing down (or not) over the years? 
I guess it might be better to first define what we are talking about when it comes to dumbing down.  My experience has been that the proficiencies are quite short, most of the brothers don't have the full lectures memorized, and there isn't much in the way of reflection happening either in terms of young Masons learning their proficiencies or of the more senior brothers having Masonic discussions.  With that being said, would meeting minutes discuss these aspects?  I'm not asking this to be argumentative, but I agree with you that it is a worthwhile question to ask if things have truly been dumbed down over the years, but the only way to ascertain that is to understand what was being done in the past, and I'm not sure how we go about determining that.


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## hanzosbm (Jun 3, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> with no GL moving to recover the genuine secrets, there is no hope of bringing more knowledge into Masonry



Can we say for certain that the GLs have in fact lost genuine secrets?  To my mind, all we can reasonably say is that the GL is not teaching genuine secrets to the masses.


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## Companion Joe (Jun 3, 2015)

A couple of things:

I don't know what kind of "genuine secrets" anyone is looking for, but if you are digging for some sort of lost ancient secret knowledge in Freemasonry, you have watched too much TV.

As for the fraternity having lowered its standards, I think yes. I don't think it's unique to Freemasonry; I think society has lowered its standards.

For example, my lodge's first WM went on to become a senator, the Secretary of the Treasury, and the U.S. Ambassador to Russia. Our second WM was a senator. Our third WM was a Congressman. We have had four members go on to be Congressmen; none in the last 75 years. A U.S. President was a member of our lodge, and another U.S. President was a regular visitor. Governors have sat in my lodge. Again, none in recent memory. To my knowledge, none of our elected officials even on the local level belong to our lodge. If they are, in 21 years I've never sat in lodge with them. The last two local elected officials who were lodge members were forced to demit or face a trial for un-Masonic conduct. 

We don't have any judges, presidents of big companies, community movers and shakers.

Our members aren't bad people or slouches. We just have more factory workers than factory owners. (For full discloser, I am a high school teacher/coach).

At our stated meeting last night, we had 30 members present; we ranged in dress from suits to the Tiler wearing jeans and a Duck Dynasty t-shirt. While dress is not the defining character of a man, if you think as an officer wearing a Duck Dynasty t-shirt is OK, then yes, our standards have dipped.


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## Companion Joe (Jun 3, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> There seem to me to be some secrets concealed in the ritual - although somewhat disfigured by the edits of those without the genuine secrets.
> 
> For example what is the function of the different rhythms of the various knocks?
> Why do the deacons cross their wands?
> Why do the brethren enter at the NW?



If you are seeking concealed secrets, you are probably in for a long search.
There aren't various knocks; there a prescribed number. If you want rhythm, consult a music teacher.
The deacons and stewards cross their staffs to represent the formation of the tabernacle.
I have to admit I am not up to speed on why candidates enter exactly where they do.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jun 3, 2015)

Companion Joe said:


> I don't know what kind of "genuine secrets" anyone is looking for, but if you are digging for some sort of lost ancient secret knowledge in Freemasonry, you have watched too much TV.


Perhaps the secret knowledge never was in Freemasonry.  Perhaps it was always in man and Freemasonry was just a path one could take to find it.


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## Browncoat (Jun 3, 2015)

Companion Joe said:


> For example, my lodge's first WM went on to become a senator, the Secretary of the Treasury, and the U.S. Ambassador to Russia. Our second WM was a senator. Our third WM was a Congressman. We have had four members go on to be Congressmen; none in the last 75 years. A U.S. President was a member of our lodge, and another U.S. President was a regular visitor. Governors have sat in my lodge. Again, none in recent memory. To my knowledge, none of our elected officials even on the local level belong to our lodge. If they are, in 21 years I've never sat in lodge with them. The last two local elected officials who were lodge members were forced to demit or face a trial for un-Masonic conduct.


I've often wondered about this. I wonder if elected officials join lodges outside of their home district. Are there lodges near Washington, DC that are full of Congressmen? It would sort of make sense because politicians rarely spend time in their home district anymore. It's not common to see them rubbing elbows with their constituents like in years past.


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## Companion Joe (Jun 4, 2015)

I don't know, but I have a feeling they do not. Harry Truman was the Grand Master of his home state of Missouri, but he was known to visit D.C. lodges even when he was President.
We have had 14 U.S. Presidents who were Masons, but the last one was 40 years ago.


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## Browncoat (Jun 4, 2015)

Companion Joe said:


> ...the last one was 40 years ago.


Sign o' the times. A lot of people just don't value the qualities that make a man a good Mason anymore.

I vaguely remember some kind of stink being raised during the last Presidential election, with claims that Mitt Romney was a Freemason. I don't think that he is, but people were talking about it negatively.


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## Companion Joe (Jun 4, 2015)

And that brings us around full circle to what we are talking about.
In days gone by, Masons were the respected members of the community. Now, if someone has much more than heard of Freemasonry, they start spouting off some conspiracy nonsense they saw on TV.


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## LAMason (Jun 4, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> Brother LAMason, not an argument, but a point of clarification; you mentioned reading about meeting minutes going back to 1902.  What type of information was contained in those minutes that would speak to the dumbing down (or not) over the years?
> I guess it might be better to first define what we are talking about when it comes to dumbing down.  My experience has been that the proficiencies are quite short, most of the brothers don't have the full lectures memorized, and there isn't much in the way of reflection happening either in terms of young Masons learning their proficiencies or of the more senior brothers having Masonic discussions.  With that being said, would meeting minutes discuss these aspects?  I'm not asking this to be argumentative, but I agree with you that it is a worthwhile question to ask if things have truly been dumbed down over the years, but the only way to ascertain that is to understand what was being done in the past, and I'm not sure how we go about determining that.



I will begin by explaining why I asked the questions that I did.  I have been a Mason since 1973 and can speak directly to changes since then.  In addition to that I had the privilege and benefit of knowing and spending a lot of time with Masons who had been active in Lodge and conferring degrees for 30, 40 and even 50 years as well as having read the minutes going back to 1902.  So, that is the reason I asked when this “dumbing down” began.  Again, my perspective is based on Louisiana and specifically rural northeast Louisiana.

I also asked how Freemasonry has been “dumbed down”, because I based my evaluation on the general format of the meetings, how petitions were processed, degrees conferred, proficiency requirements for advancement.  My original post gave the impression that I was relying solely on the old minutes, but I should have said it also included my personal experience over 42 years and information passed on to me from men who had been active in Freemasonry for many years.  From reading the old minutes I know that the way they conducted business as far as the routine matters like reading the minutes, reading correspondence, paying the bills, receiving petitions, voting on proficiency, conferring degrees, and the typical length of the meetings were similar to how it is done now.  Of course they do not contain details about the ritual itself or details of the discussion during or after the meetings, but this is where I rely on my personal knowledge and what I was told by men who had been Masons since as far back as the 1920s and 1930s.  Now, I will say there have been some changes such as cipher books for the ritual and catechisms, but a candidate still has to receive some mouth to ear instruction to be able to use them and pass an examination on the entire catechism.  In terms of dress, I realize that attire is more casual now than it was in times past, but I do not place a value judgment on that.

When it comes to “quality” as far as members, I asked how do you define “quality” and how are candidates different now from in the past.  I should have probably just said Masons.  I can say from my personal experience that even when I joined the Lodge there were more professionals (Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Educators) and for lack of a better description “high profile” members.  That is not to say that they are nonexistent today.  But there were also many without formal education including blue collar, farmers, oil field workers, and even, again for lack of a better description “common laborers”.  My Father joined the lodge in 1922, only had a 3rd grade education and held only menial jobs.

I know this post was long but hope it answered your question to some degree.


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## Bro. Allen (Jun 4, 2015)

.


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## hanzosbm (Jun 4, 2015)

LAMason said:


> I will begin by explaining why I asked the questions that I did.  I have been a Mason since 1973 and can speak directly to changes since then.  In addition to that I had the privilege and benefit of knowing and spending a lot of time with Masons who had been active in Lodge and conferring degrees for 30, 40 and even 50 years as well as having read the minutes going back to 1902.  So, that is the reason I asked when this “dumbing down” began.  Again, my perspective is based on Louisiana and specifically rural northeast Louisiana.
> 
> I also asked how Freemasonry has been “dumbed down”, because I based my evaluation on the general format of the meetings, how petitions were processed, degrees conferred, proficiency requirements for advancement.  My original post gave the impression that I was relying solely on the old minutes, but I should have said it also included my personal experience over 42 years and information passed on to me from men who had been active in Freemasonry for many years.  From reading the old minutes I know that the way they conducted business as far as the routine matters like reading the minutes, reading correspondence, paying the bills, receiving petitions, voting on proficiency, conferring degrees, and the typical length of the meetings were similar to how it is done now.  Of course they do not contain details about the ritual itself or details of the discussion during or after the meetings, but this is where I rely on my personal knowledge and what I was told by men who had been Masons since as far back as the 1920s and 1930s.  Now, I will say there have been some changes such as cipher books for the ritual and catechisms, but a candidate still has to receive some mouth to ear instruction to be able to use them and pass an examination on the entire catechism.  In terms of dress, I realize that attire is more casual now than it was in times past, but I do not place a value judgment on that.
> 
> ...


It did answer my question, absolutely, and I appreciate you taking the time to do so.

You bring up some interesting points about the backgrounds of the brothers today as opposed to previous generations.  Those points happened to coincide with some thoughts I had this morning about the levels of introspection involved in Masonry today versus in the past.  I'm a relatively young Mason and do not have the person experience going back as far as other brothers and maybe this sense of dumbing down is based on some romanticism of the past.  That being said, we can all agree that at some point in Freemasonry's past there was some shift from purely operative Masonry to speculative.  We went from a group of blue collar stone cutters (although it could be argued that the modern equivalent would be well educated engineers and architects) to a group of open minded, highly educated, free thinkers from the upper echelons of educated society.  It seems to me that we are starting to revert a bit.  I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing as men of all backgrounds have things to offer, but when some of complain that there is no longer any discussion over the deeper meaning of our symbols and the philosophical side while we simultaneously lose the demographic most likely to be considered the modern free thinkers, it starts to make sense. 

At least in this regard, while I think that the term 'dumbing down' is unnecessarily negative, I think there could be some validity to it.


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## Browncoat (Jun 4, 2015)

LAMason said:


> So, I have a few questions:
> 
> How has Freemasonry been “dumbed down”?
> When did this “dumbing down” begin?
> ...



I'll address each of your questions directly, since I'm the one who used the term "dumbed down" in another thread (in a discussion about T.O. lodges)

*How has Freemasonry been "dumbed down"?*
First, some context: Dumbing down is a deliberate diminution of the intellectual level of education, literature, cinema, news, and culture. The term "dumbing down" originated in 1933 as movie-business slang, used by motion picture screenplay writers, meaning: "[to] revise so as to appeal to those of little education or intelligence".

For most of its history, speculative Freemasonry has been a gentleman's club. The fraternity has included men of power, including U.S. Presidents, astronauts, pro athletes, industrialists, etc. We're all familiar with the long list of famous Freemasons. As time has gone on, fewer and fewer names have been added to that list. Instead of lawyers, doctors, and entrepreneurs, many lodges consist of laborers, farmers, and working class men. Not that there's anything wrong with that, or that these men are of lower intelligence. 

*When did this "dumbing down" begin?*
While I can't point to a specific date and time, this dumbing down occurred sometime during the social and civil unrest of the late 60's and early 70's. This is exactly where the generation gap occurs in Freemasonry as well because rebellious young men of this time did not want to join their father's fraternity. A lot of things changed during this period (outside of the Craft), including a dramatic shift in our social values.

*How have we lowered standards?*
Lodges all over the country were closed during the era of decline. The elaborate temples that had been built were no longer maintained due to a lack of money in the coffers. Dues were dramatically lowered in an effort to retain members and hopefully attract new ones. Thus, the quantity over quality mantra was adopted by most Grand Lodges.

Enter the one-day classes. While many quality Masons (including Chris Hodapp of _Freemasons for Dummies_ fame) were raised from these classes, they were largely deemed a failure. I recently saw a statistic (can't remember where) that Ohio holds the current record at around 7,000 Master Masons raised in a single day. Of those, only 6-8% ever held officer positions.

Dues continue to be ridiculously low. I was shocked to discover that dues at my lodge was only $45 per year, which means I have a vested interest of 12 cents per day ($3.75/month) on my Masonic experience. I pay almost triple that for Netflix. Nevermind the cable or cell phone bills...or even the trash bill. As a matter of perspective, my 13 yr old son pays $10/month for Xbox Live so he can play video games online with his friends. In short, most men today get more out of watching television or texting than spending time at the lodge and investing in themselves.

In the T.O. book, lodge dues were set at $365 per year on the sole basis that Freemasonry was worth $1 per day. How many Brothers who just read that figure nearly fainted? How many Brothers believe that they could get their lodge to dramatically increase dues in an effort to:

Hire speakers for education?
Buy new regalia?
Improve the lodge?
Include a nice meal?
Standards are low because it seems that most members want them to remain low by keeping dues at a level that simply keeps the lights on.

*How are candidates different now than in the past?*
Today's candidate wants something more. They're not interested in secret handshakes and goofy hats, they want to learn. They don't just want to pay dues for the sake of saying they're a Freemason...they want to know what it _means_ to be a Freemason.

*How do you define “quality” as it relates to a petitioner?*
Maybe I'm special. Maybe I'm clairvoyant. But to me, it doesn't seem that difficult to know who would make an ideal candidate. I have several friends and acquaintances outside of the Craft, and it would be very simple to sort them into a 2-column list of yay or nay. I don't imagine this would be difficult for anyone else.

I think the problem is not with finding quality petitioners. Rather, it's that current members are either A) not attending lodge and could care less about finding new members, or B) an active member, but unhappy/bored with their lodge experience and don't want to drag anyone else into it.

The overall "dumbing down" I'm referring to is that Freemasonry is supposed to be about "making good men better." I won't repeat all of the references we've all heard about teachings being veiled in symbolism and all that other jazz. For many, it's not about that anymore. It's not about learning, much less applying what you've learned to your life. It's about paying dues to simply belong. We've "dumbed down" to being something like Rotary, Lions, Elks...whatever.


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## dfreybur (Jun 4, 2015)

Companion Joe said:


> If you are seeking concealed secrets, you are probably in for a long search.



Many of which you will find in your own heart.  "Enlightenment available.  Inquire Within."



> There aren't various knocks; there a prescribed number. If you want rhythm, consult a music teacher.



That varies by jurisdiction.  I arrived in a new state and when I heard how many knocks were used I looked around expecting to see a crotchety old PM correcting the error.  Nope, different jurisdiction different count.

Brother James also seems to mix in content from appendent bodies.  I learned several knock rhythms there.


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## LAMason (Jun 4, 2015)

Browncoat said:


> For many, it's not about that anymore. It's not about learning, much less applying what you've learned to your life. It's about paying dues to simply belong.



“There are few more vexatious problems which the Worshipful Master has to meet than that of increasing the attendance in a Lodge in which the members have, to some extent at least, lost interest.

It is a fact no less true than sad, that, on the average, an attendance of ten per cent of the membership is looked upon as a “Good” turnout.  Yet there are Lodges which have a greater number at almost every communication.”

*Increasing Lodge Attendance*

*by unknown*

*SHORT TALK BULLETIN - Vol.VI  October, 1928  No.10*


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jun 4, 2015)

Companion Joe said:


> If you are seeking concealed secrets, you are probably in for a long search.


I couldn't agree more Brother.  It took me almost fifteen years to find them.


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## hanzosbm (Jun 4, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> I couldn't agree more Brother.  It took me almost fifteen years to find them.


I hear ya.  Took me 6 to even figure out they existed.  Now the real journey starts.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jun 4, 2015)

This isn't related to Masonry (maybe) but if you would like to learn a lot about how the mind and the brain interact you could consider taking this free online class https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn    I learned a huge amount about how to work with my brain instead of against it.  There is some great stuff about memorization in there too.  And there are some great examples of how the brain gets fooled sometimes.  Just FYI.


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## hanzosbm (Jun 4, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> This isn't related to Masonry (maybe) but if you would like to learn a lot about how the mind and the brain interact you could consider taking this free online class https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn    I learned a huge amount about how to work with my brain instead of against it.  There is some great stuff about memorization in there too.  And there are some great examples of how the brain gets fooled sometimes.  Just FYI.


Thank you for this!  I can't say for sure when I'll get around to it, but it looks very interesting and I look forward to it.


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## Companion Joe (Jun 4, 2015)

Genuine secrets revealed:
How to turn junk metal into gold: At the end of the day, take the change out of your pocket, put it in a jug, and when you have enough saved, visit a jewelry store.
How to live a long live: Eat right, exercise, and look both ways before crossing the street.
How to achieve immortality: Treat people in a way that they will remember you after you are gone.

As for Masonry, it has taught me to hopefully be a better man and member of our community, but there is no secret to it other than thinking before you speak and act.


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## Companion Joe (Jun 4, 2015)

You keep using the word "secret" which always sets off conspiracy nut bells and whistles with me. Sorry, it just does. I don't know what kind of secrets you seek. Alex Jones might be able to help.
Freemasonry is not a secret society. The only secrets in the fraternity are the modes of recognition and the ritual, and those haven't been "secret" for nearly 300 years. Perhaps in the operative day the way you built a flying buttress was a closely guarded secret. As far as speculative Freemasonry, there is not now, nor has there ever been, any kind of occult magical power. Our founding fathers didn't consult magical scrolls to form a more perfect union; they used the precepts they found in Masonry. I don't call those "genuine secrets." I simply call them good ideas.
I have been a Master Mason for more than 21 years. I still don't know where the secret trap door to the stash of gold is.


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## Browncoat (Jun 4, 2015)

Companion Joe said:


> I have been a Master Mason for more than 21 years. I still don't know where the secret trap door to the stash of gold is.


The secret lies with Charlotte. Duh!

Didn't you see the movie?


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## hanzosbm (Jun 4, 2015)

Companion Joe said:


> I have been a Master Mason for more than 21 years. I still don't know where the secret trap door to the stash of gold is.



Well, our craft is known to be 'veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols' so, let's use your example of the stash of gold.  Have you looked for it?

"Seek, and ye shall find."  Have you sought out these 'genuine secrets' you seem so convinced don't exist?


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## Companion Joe (Jun 4, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Does your FC ritual explain that the work of the FC is to study the hidden mysteries of nature and science?
> 
> Are hidden mysteries kept secret by those that know them?



No. We discuss coming out of ignorance into knowledge, morally and spiritually improving your character, and the seven liberal arts and sciences.


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## Companion Joe (Jun 4, 2015)

I think David Icke has the answers to the secrets.


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## Companion Joe (Jun 4, 2015)

You need to read more hard history than romantic history.
I suggest Brent Morris.


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## Bob Reed (Jun 4, 2015)

Read The Alchemical Keys to Masonic Ritual and The 32 Secret Paths of Solomon. Many will say there is nothing hidden when pressed because they have never bothered to look themselves. It just sounds cool to say. So much of the ritual is very alchemical. Heady stuff but it's fun to dig!


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## LAMason (Jun 5, 2015)

Browncoat said:


> Dumbing down is a deliberate diminution of the intellectual level of education, literature, cinema, news, and culture. The term "dumbing down" originated in 1933 as movie-business slang, used by motion picture screenplay writers, meaning: "[to] revise so as to appeal to those of little education or intelligence".



I think you may have failed to credit a source:

“Dumbing down is a deliberate diminution of the intellectual level of education, literature, cinema, news, and culture. The term "dumbing down" originated in 1933 as movie-business slang, used by motion picture screenplay writers, meaning: "[to] revise so as to appeal to those of little education or intelligence".[1]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumbing_down


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## Browncoat (Jun 5, 2015)

You seriously need to get out more often.


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## LAMason (Jun 5, 2015)

Browncoat said:


> You seriously need to get out more often.



Ad hominem.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jun 6, 2015)

“The faculty of imagination is the great spring of human activity, and the principal source of human improvement. As it delights in presenting to the mind scenes and characters more perfect than those which we are acquainted with, it prevents us from ever being completely satisfied with our present condition or with our past attainments, and engages us continually in the pursuit of some untried enjoyment, or of some ideal excellence. Hence the ardour of the selfish to better their fortunes, and to add to their personal accomplishments; and hence the zeal of the patriot and philosopher to advance the virtue and the happiness of the human race. Destroy this faculty, and the condition of man will become as stationary as that of the brutes.” – Dugald Stewart, _Elements of the Philosophy of the Human Mind_


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 6, 2015)

Companion Joe said:


> I don't know what kind of secrets you seek. Alex Jones might be able to help.


Lol alex jones.....That dude is effn nuts


----------



## Ripcord22A (Jun 6, 2015)

Browncoat said:


> The secret lies with Charlotte. Duh!
> 
> Didn't you see the movie?


Hey dont know National Treasure that movie got my interest in the craft going when i was about 16...lol....i joined the craft at 27


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## JMartinez (Jun 6, 2015)

I just think all brothers need to remember that it's the internal and not the external. Also freemasonry should never be on the same pedestal as a country club. Our fraternity is based on diversity and equality.


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## Glen Cook (Jun 7, 2015)

JMartinez said:


> I just think all brothers need to remember that it's the internal and not the external. Also freemasonry should never be on the same pedestal as a country club. Our fraternity is based on diversity and equality.


Is it? If so,  this is a relatively recent view. The abundant racism into the late 20th C is evident not only from justifications given by Claudy, but the refusal, still extant, to recognize Prince Hall.  There are Scandinavian GLs which admit only Christians. Multiple appendant bodies admit only Christians.  Until 1984, the GLs of the United Stares condoned the prohibition of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) in membership in the GL of Utah.


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## JMartinez (Jun 8, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> Is it? If so,  this is a relatively recent view. The abundant racism into the late 20th C is evident not only from justifications given by Claudy, but the refusal, still extant, to recognize Prince Hall.  There are Scandinavian GLs which admit only Christians. Multiple appendant bodies admit only Christians.  Until 1984, the GLs of the United Stares condoned the prohibition of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) in membership in the GL of Utah.


But is that Masonic?


----------



## coachn (Jun 8, 2015)

LAMason said:


> ...How has Freemasonry been “dumbed down”?



By accepting Quantity as a method to cover costs.
By advancing ill prepare Members.
By restricting education to Organizational ends and not toward actual cultivation of the members toward Personal Mastery.



LAMason said:


> ...When did this “dumbing down” begin?



~1717



LAMason said:


> ...How have we lowered standards?



By accepting Quantity as a method to cover costs.
By advancing ill prepare Members.
By restricting education to Organizational ends and not toward actual cultivation of the members toward Personal Mastery.



LAMason said:


> ...How are candidates different now than in the past?



Younger
More immature
More dependent
Less well-read
More misinformed



LAMason said:


> ...How do you define “quality” as it relates to a petitioner?



By reviewing his past improvement efforts and successes
By assessing his continued desire to improve and his plans to do so.
By ascertaining his vision for the future.



LAMason said:


> ...I will agree that in terms of inflation adjusted dollars our dues are lower now than in the past.



As much as I agree that dues have not kept up with inflation when compared to what was paid in years past, I must say that, from all available information, the expense of running a lodge has dramatically lessened when adjusted for inflation.


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## LAMason (Jun 8, 2015)

coachn said:


> ~1717



I agree that from what I have read, early members of Masonic Lodges were better/more broadly educated than members today and that it is not a recent (coinciding with the decline in membership)  phenomenom.


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## coachn (Jun 8, 2015)

LAMason said:


> I agree that from what I have read, early members of Masonic Lodges were better/more broadly educated than members today and that it is not a recent (coinciding with the decline in membership)  phenomenom.


Yup.  Furthermore, the standardizing of Freemasonry into an assembly line driven advancement society based upon memorization and regurgitation of misunderstood scripts does nothing more than produce non-freethinking plug-n-play performers who produce more of the same.


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## hanzosbm (Jun 8, 2015)

coachn said:


> Yup.  Furthermore, the standardizing of Freemasonry into an assembly line driven advancement society based upon memorization and regurgitation of misunderstood scripts does nothing more than produce non-freethinking plug-n-play performers who produce more of the same.


I agree with you completely.  That being said, that might not be such a bad thing.  Without the 'non-freethinking plug-n-play performers' we wouldn't have the numbers we have.  And while I am certainly no proponent of quantity over quality, without those numbers we'd be hard pressed to find the quality brothers we're looking for. 
Putting a pamphlet on the windshield of every car in a parking lot to come to a job interview might result in the average applicant being less suitable, but you get a much larger pool from which to find the perfect fit.


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## coachn (Jun 8, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> I agree with you completely.  That being said, that might not be such a bad thing.  Without the 'non-freethinking plug-n-play performers' we wouldn't have the numbers we have.  And while I am certainly no proponent of quantity over quality, without those numbers we'd be hard pressed to find the quality brothers we're looking for.
> Putting a pamphlet on the windshield of every car in a parking lot to come to a job interview might result in the average applicant being less suitable, but you get a much larger pool from which to find the perfect fit.


Yup.  But the question was about dumbing down and not about the benefits of dumbing down, hence the furthermore.  The problem that such dumbed down numbers brings thus becomes, "perfect fit for what?"


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## Browncoat (Jun 8, 2015)

coachn said:


> Younger
> More immature
> More dependent
> Less well-read
> More misinformed



It's clear the Freemasonry has a problem at the local lodge level. While some lodges enjoy great success and its members fulfilled, the vast majority seem to be chock full of bored Masons who:

Often barely field enough officers to open the lodge
Have 10-20% attendance
Go through the motions and offer little else
In short, the previous generation has not so much "made good men better" through Freemasonry. They have created the current state of affairs, and now it is left up to the new generation of Masons who are essentially _young and dumb_ to fix things. Meanwhile, the old guard are often the ones standing in the way of progress being made. "In my day" and "when I was in the East" are the rallying cries of these men who don't want their lodges changed.

What is your proposed solution, Coach N?


----------



## coachn (Jun 8, 2015)

Browncoat said:


> ...What is your proposed solution, Coach N?



To propose a solution would mean that there is a perceived problem.  I do not see that there is a problem.  _Organizational Freemasonry is designed to do exactly what it does and the results you see are what it does by design._  It shall continue to do exactly what it does into the future until it runs its course OR redesigns what it does to get different results.  _One cannot expect the results to change until it changes what it does._


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## LAMason (Jun 8, 2015)

I found this Powerpoint and and paper by Trevor Stewart very interesting in terms of providing information about early Lodge meetings in London.
http://www.nglgreece.org/site/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=1AB77EXXirQ=&tabid=9844
http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/masonry/Misc/TS-Origins.pdf


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## Browncoat (Jun 8, 2015)

coachn said:


> To propose a solution would mean that there is a perceived problem.  I do not see that there is a problem.  _Organizational Freemasonry is designed to do exactly what it does and the results you see are what it does by design._  It shall continue to do exactly what it does into the future until it runs its course OR redesigns what it does to get different results.  _One cannot expect the results to change until it changes what it does._


Going out on a limb here, Coach...you've coined a term there, so I'll do my best to interpret:

_Organizational Freemasonry_ - Boring people to death in Blue Lodge, whose sole purpose is to serve as a feeder for appendant bodies. Those bodies are where Masons actually "learn" about Freemasonry, while at the same time, paying more dues.


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## LAMason (Jun 8, 2015)

Browncoat said:


> In short,* the previous generation* has not so much "made good men better" through Freemasonry. They have created the current state of affairs,


I am not sure the length of time you consider a generation to be, but based on the generally accepted time frame of about 25 years (http://www.ancestry.com/cs/Satellit...lt&pagename=LearningWrapper&cid=1265124426382) the problems you describe have existed much longer than one generation.



LAMason said:


> “There are few more vexatious problems which the Worshipful Master has to meet than that of increasing the attendance in a Lodge in which the members have, to some extent at least, lost interest.
> 
> It is a fact no less true than sad, that, on the average, an attendance of ten per cent of the membership is looked upon as a “Good” turnout. Yet there are Lodges which have a greater number at almost every communication.”
> 
> ...


----------



## coachn (Jun 8, 2015)

Browncoat said:


> Going out on a limb here, Coach...you've coined a term there, so I'll do my best to interpret:
> 
> _Organizational Freemasonry_ - Boring people to death in Blue Lodge, whose sole purpose is to serve as a feeder for appendant bodies. Those bodies are where Masons actually "learn" about Freemasonry, while at the same time, paying more dues.


LOL!  Yes, but with one slight augmentation: _Members learn more about "Organizational Freemasonry", and are asked to 1) remain Moral, 2) remain silent about what goes on at that level and 3) support the level they are currently and all the previous levels._

Some come and go, and some stay.  As I had posted:  _It is perfectly designed to get the results it gets.
_
BTW - O.F. is at its core theater; and more specifically a total emersion live action role playing Society designed to put on Morality Plays called "Degrees", all designed to bring paying patrons through total emersion performances for fee and to have those patrons continue to pay fees should they wish to see these performances again or participate within them.  In the Blue Lodge theatric arena, the theme is based upon symbolic stone-craft.  In higher Degrees, other themes are introduced supposedly complementary to this beginning theme.  It's all theater though and this often times is not realized by the more zealous members who get swept away in the fantasy.


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## LAMason (Jun 8, 2015)

Browncoat said:


> current members are either A) not attending lodge and could care less about finding new members, or B) an active member, but unhappy/bored with their lodge experience and don't want to drag anyone else into it.



I posit that there is at least one other option C)members who are for the most part satisfied with their Lodge experience and are very willing for their friends and family members to join (i.e. I see 2B1ASK1 bumper stickers all the time and multi generational members are quite common.  I know one man, a PM who has 2 sons, both are also PMs, and 2 grandsons who are Mason.  They are all members of the same Lodge.).  The attitudes/opinions of members could also likely be viewed as a continuum.


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## Browncoat (Jun 8, 2015)

coachn said:


> LOL!  Yes, but with one slight augmentation: _Members learn more about "Organizational Freemasonry", and are asked to 1) remain Moral, 2) remain silent about what goes on at that level and 3) support the level they are currently and all the previous levels._



I saw this Organizational Freemasonry first-hand last week: 

1) My lodge traveled to another lodge (after a short open/close) for a visitation. This was my first time visiting another lodge, and I was stoked. We showed up with around 14 guys, and even though they had known for several months that we would be visiting on this date, they still had to make phone calls to get enough of their own members to come and fill chairs. A lot of those guys were sporting Scottish Rite rings and pins.

2) My father-in-law invited me to High Twelve last Friday. I saw a few familiar faces, but several new. This group supports two local lodges for the most part, and there was probably about 20 men present. Some of these guys were members of my own lodge, but I'd never seen them before.

3) The big talk last week that I overheard was the official closing of my county's Shriners group. I guess you need a certain amount of people present to even shut the thing down, and they were having problems even getting that part done. It's kind of sad, considering these guys have a van and transport several children in the area to Shriners hospitals...but now that's being shut down also due to lack of drivers.

Thanks for opening my eyes to this...guess I'd never really saw it that way. But now that I think about it, most of the older Masons that I know have done it all, so to speak. York Rite, Scottish Rite, Shriners, High Twelve, etc. My father-in-law held offices in all of those. I've had a few guys ask me about joining one thing or the other, but I haven't felt pressured by it.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jun 8, 2015)

Browncoat said:


> it is left up to the new generation of Masons who are essentially _young and dumb_ to fix things.


Perhaps this quote can offer a new perspective, "The purpose of ritual is to allow those who do not understand the truth to pass the truth on until it reaches someone who can understand it".  Perhaps the Masonic use of the word Equality is not intended to mean that we are all exactly alike.  Maybe it only means that we are all given an equal shot at deciphering the truth.  I agree that it is left to the young and dumb to fix things.  They are to young to be jaded and cynical, and too dumb to believe that there are no hidden meanings and truths.

You don't have to read many of my posts to know that I always encourage Masons to learn something about Masonry and then to stand up in Lodge and talk about it.  I am talking to the Brothers who are still young and dumb enough to believe that what they do matters.  In my experience understanding is not a gift that only special people have, it is a nut that some Masons crack and some don't.


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## Browncoat (Jun 8, 2015)

Clearly _Organizational Freemasonry_ has worked for previous generation(s). But it should also be clear that it is *not* going to work for the current or next generation. We're looking to squeeze the most out of our blue lodge experience, and if left unfulfilled there, we're certainly not going to go looking for it in appendant bodies. At least not in large numbers. Blue lodge shouldn't be viewed as a "stepping stone" into other things.


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## Glen Cook (Jun 8, 2015)

JMartinez said:


> But is that Masonic?


Clearly, it is.


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## JMartinez (Jun 8, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> Clearly, it is.


Then there shouldn't be a problem.


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## Glen Cook (Jun 8, 2015)

JMartinez said:


> Then there shouldn't be a problem.


But you stated : "Our fraternity is based on diversity and equality."

I supposed that, if so, it was relatively recent.  I don't think you really mean that a lack of diversity and equality isn't a problem.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jun 11, 2015)

Please forgive the rather long quote.  The following was written 146 years ago (1869) by the Russian author Leo Tolstoy in "War and Peace".  Remind me again, when did we lower the standards? http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/fiction/warandpeace.html








 "He divided the Brothers he knew into four categories. In the first he put those who did not take an active part in the affairs of the lodges or in human affairs, but were exclusively occupied with the mystical science of the order: with questions of the threefold designation of God, the three primordial elements—sulphur, mercury, and salt—or the meaning of the square and all the various figures of the temple of Solomon. Pierre respected this class of Brothers to which the elder ones chiefly belonged, including, Pierre thought, Joseph Alexeevich himself, but he did not share their interests. His heart was not in the mystical aspect of Freemasonry. 






 In the second category Pierre reckoned himself and others like him, seeking and vacillating, who had not yet found in Freemasonry a straight and comprehensible path, but hoped to do so. 






 In the third category he included those Brothers (the majority) who saw nothing in Freemasonry but the external forms and ceremonies, and prized the strict performance of these forms without troubling about their purport or significance. Such were Willarski and even the Grand Master of the principal lodge. 






 Finally, to the fourth category also a great many Brothers belonged, particularly those who had lately joined. These according to Pierre's observations were men who had no belief in anything, nor desire for anything, but joined the Freemasons merely to associate with the wealthy young Brothers who were influential through their connections or rank, and of whom there were very many in the lodge."


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## LAMason (Jun 11, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> The following was written 146 years ago (1869)



Very informative.



Browncoat said:


> In short, the previous generation has not so much "made good men better" through Freemasonry. They have created the current state of affairs



Being a member of "the previous generation" it is good to know that we alone did not create "the current state of affairs".


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## hanzosbm (Jun 11, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Please forgive the rather long quote.  The following was written 146 years ago (1869) by the Russian author Leo Tolstoy in "War and Peace".  Remind me again, when did we lower the standards? http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/fiction/warandpeace.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, I feel so ignorant for having no idea that War and Peace had such a Masonic context.  Kinda makes me want to read it, except that I read so seldom that I'd be lucky to finish it before I die. 

While I see what you are saying in regards to things being the same 146 years ago, I might argue against that.  I would say I probably belong to the first class of Mason that Tolstoy speaks of.  Despite the bit of a sting regarding his description of not caring about anything else (that's gonna require some introspection) it made me realize something.  Besides of a few of the brothers on this site, I don't know that I've ever met another Mason who I would put into that class.  There might be one or two I've come across and I simply didn't know because they weren't open about it, but nonetheless, they are very rare.  Based on Tolstoy's description, 146 years ago, while certainly not the majority, they were a large enough population that even he, a Mason not of that group, recognizes them and seems to say that others did as well.  I would venture that 95% of the Masons I've met fall into the third category at best and aren't even aware that the first category exists. 
Based on that estimate then, the argument could be made that, while the majority didn't have interest in the deeper meanings 146 years ago, some did, and enough of them that it was at least known to be an available path.  Comparing that to today and I would say that there has indeed been a decline.


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## Bob Reed (Jun 11, 2015)

Agreed. I definitely need to put W & P on my reading list. I guess the biggest thing I have taken from this thread is that like anything else in life, you get out of it what you put into it. Whether you were initiated, passed and raised in a day or over several years, it's all there for the taking. You have to put in the effort, but it helps to have someone to guide and inspire you to know it's even there in the first place. It reminds me of what my lodge brother, past Grand Master and one of the best Masons I could ever hope to know often says: "I am not interested in being better than others, but rather becoming better than myself." Ultimately isn't that what we are all trying to do?


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## dfreybur (Jun 11, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Please forgive the rather long quote.  The following was written 146 years ago (1869)



Similar appears in The Iliad and The Odyssey though those were comments on general society as there were no lodges in that time and place.


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 21, 2015)

LAMason said:


> I am not sure the length of time you consider a generation to be, but based on the generally accepted time frame of about 25 years .



Quwstion.....im 30 so does that mean that I am in the same generation as a 5 year old and a 55year old but that 55 year old is in the same generation as me but not the 5 year old?


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## LAMason (Jun 21, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Quwstion.....im 30 so does that mean that I am in the same generation as a 5 year old and a 55year old but that 55 year old is in the same generation as me but not the 5 year old?



That would certainly be possible if we were talking about Biological Generations:

*A Biological Generation*

…is simply the unscaled transition from one parent to one offspring. In humans, the Biological generation does not have a standard length but there are limits. So you are in one generation, your mother the previous, your child the next one after you, etc. regardless of when any of you were born. As long as your Uncle Willard does not marry your Sister Betty Jean, this is not complicated; This is what people often mean when they use the term “generation” but not what they mean when they ask the question “how long is a generation.”

However in this discussion Generation is used in the context of Cultural or Societal Generations, the 25 years of course is not written in stone as there certainly is some fluidity:

*A Cultural or Societal Generation*

…is a cohort (a bunch of people born during a specified range of time) with a name that has some sort of meaning to those who use it. The following are widely recognized, given here with the midpoint of the generally accepted range of birth dates:

Lost 1914
Greatest 1923
Silent 1935
Baby Boom (Boomers) 1955
Generation X 1968
Generation Y 1975
Generation Z or I 1992
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/03/01/how-long-is-a-generation/


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 2, 2015)

Browncoat said:


> Masons are not fulfilled by their experience


I think that one of the main reasons for this is that month in and month out all that happens in the majority of lodges are business meetings.


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## hanzosbm (Nov 3, 2015)

Warrior1256 said:


> I think that one of the main reasons for this is that month in and month out all that happens in the majority of lodges are business meetings.


I agree.

I ask everyone to ask themselves this:  why are you here at this forum?  What are you able to find here that you cannot find within your own lodge?  Once you have answered that, then ask yourself 'so why isn't it in my own lodge?'


----------



## Warrior1256 (Nov 3, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> I agree.
> 
> I ask everyone to ask themselves this:  why are you here at this forum?  What are you able to find here that you cannot find within your own lodge?  Once you have answered that, then ask yourself 'so why isn't it in my own lodge?'


I hadn't thought of it this way before but you're absolutely right!!!I'm here on this forum so often because it is more interesting than my lodge meetings and I learn more here than I do in my lodge! We install new officers in my mother lodge Dec. 7th and I am going to speak to the incoming Master about lectures and guest speakers and the like.


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## Carl_in_NH (Nov 3, 2015)

Warrior1256 said:


> I am going to speak to the incoming Master about lectures and guest speakers and the like.



Better still, offer to do a presentation yourself. Do some research on a topic you find interesting and start a discussion with members of the lodge. Draw them out from the sidelines and officer chairs with input to the discussion. We have had very good luck recently in our lodge with such participatory discussions - you may even find you need to place a time limit on that segment of your meeting so that you'll still have enough time to discuss the ham and bean supper before closing.


----------



## JJones (Nov 3, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> The social brethren had no idea how the lodge had previously attracted candidates.



Pancake fundraisers, obviously.


----------



## hanzosbm (Nov 4, 2015)

Warrior1256 said:


> I hadn't thought of it this way before but you're absolutely right!!!I'm here on this forum so often because it is more interesting than my lodge meetings and I learn more here than I do in my lodge! We install new officers in my mother lodge Dec. 7th and I am going to speak to the incoming Master about lectures and guest speakers and the like.


Brother, as a KY MM, I am most familiar with those particular rituals and have done a fair bit of writing and research on them.  I'll inbox you one area I found particularly interesting and one that I'm sure will generate not only a lot of immediate discussion, but which will open an untold number of doors for further discussion.


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## Ressam (Nov 4, 2015)

LAMason said:


> So, I have a few questions:
> 
> How has Freemasonry been “dumbed down”?
> When did this “dumbing down” begin?
> ...



Hi, sir.
Can you, please, give your -- "definition" of the word/concept "Standard"(in Freemasonry)?


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Nov 4, 2015)

Companion Joe said:


> I don't know what kind of "genuine secrets" anyone is looking for, but if you are digging for some sort of lost ancient secret knowledge in Freemasonry, you have watched too much TV.


 Perhaps the reason that some truths are called "lost" is that they must re-experienced by each individual in order to be understood.  If a person lacks these experiences it is not "knowledge" that is lost, it is "understanding".   Understanding is the golden key that unlocks the doors.


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 5, 2015)

Carl_in_NH said:


> Better still, offer to do a presentation yourself. Do some research on a topic you find interesting and start a discussion with members of the lodge


Great idea! I just may do that. Thank you brother.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Nov 5, 2015)

Carl_in_NH said:


> Better still, offer to do a presentation yourself.


This is exactly what I did in my Lodge.  Only I didn't offer, I prepared in secret.  When the presentation was ready I simply stood up in Lodge and gave it.  Stealth Masonry, I recommend it to everyone!  P.S. If you want to exchange presentations send me a PM.


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## JJones (Nov 5, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> This is exactly what I did in my Lodge.  Only I didn't offer, I prepared in secret.  When the presentation was ready I simply stood up in Lodge and gave it.  Stealth Masonry, I recommend it to everyone!  P.S. If you want to exchange presentations send me a PM.



Sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.  Good job.


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## Plustax (Nov 8, 2015)

My question... Can a non mason file masonic violation charges? If so...why?  If not...why not?


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## Glen Cook (Nov 8, 2015)

Plustax said:


> My question... Can a non mason file masonic violation charges? If so...why?  If not...why not?


I am unaware of a jurisdiction which would allow this. The codes  of  which I am aware only allow a member to do so. Our Masonic codes are similar to the UCMJ in many respects; it allows only a person subject to the UCMJ to prefer charges.


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## dfreybur (Nov 8, 2015)

Plustax said:


> My question... Can a non mason file masonic violation charges? If so...why?  If not...why not?



A Masonic trial is a tiled event which means none but Masons may be present.  It makes no sense for a non-Mason to file charges that would lead to a Masonic trial where the accuser would be excluded.


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## Plustax (Nov 8, 2015)

Rumor has it that a masons wife is wanting to press masonic violation charges on a mason. Just didn't know if that could be done. I would think it would have to be done by the mason himself.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 8, 2015)

Plustax said:


> Rumor has it that a masons wife is wanting to press masonic violation charges on a mason. Just didn't know if that could be done. I would think it would have to be done by the mason himself.


I would urge you review your code


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## Plustax (Nov 8, 2015)

Actually I have & don't see anything where a "non" mason can file masonic disciplinary violation. Masons yes.. Non masons..No. However..opinions..many.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 8, 2015)

Plustax said:


> Actually I have & don't see anything where a "non" mason can file masonic disciplinary violation. Masons yes.. Non masons..No. However..opinions..many.


My usual tactic when people declare to me what the code allows: Citation?


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## dfreybur (Nov 8, 2015)

Plustax said:


> Rumor has it that a masons wife is wanting to press masonic violation charges on a mason. Just didn't know if that could be done. I would think it would have to be done by the mason himself.



It is tradition in many jurisdictions that the Junior Warden is the officer whose job it is to file Masonic charges when it becomes necessary.  This is implicit in the traditional duty that the JW superintend the membership, so the tradition will not be present in every single jurisdiction.  Nonetheless that's the brother to approach.

Note that the lodge must take a vote on whether to move forward with the charges, again in the jurisdictions I know.   One lodge that I used to visit was asked to press charges and after the discussion at the next Stated meeting they did vote to decline the charges, so it does happen.


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## Bill Lins (Nov 8, 2015)

Plustax said:


> Rumor has it that a masons wife is wanting to press masonic violation charges on a mason. Just didn't know if that could be done. I would think it would have to be done by the mason himself.


Under GLoTX Law, not only must the accuser be a Master Mason, but he must be a member in good standing of a GLoTX Lodge. (Grand Master's Decision- 1953, #7). In addition, although not specifically stated as such, at numerous places in Title V is found the wording "_the accusing Brother_". Further, Art. 611 states, in part, "_the Trial Master shall then open the proceeding and return all Master Masons present to the Lodgeroom, to specifically include: the accuser, the accused, and the advocates for both_." (italics mine)


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## Doubleagle357 (Jan 26, 2017)

FM makes good men better......it can't make a bad man good


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## coachn (Jan 27, 2017)

Doubleagle357 said:


> FM makes good men better......it can't make a bad man good


It doesn't even do that (make good men better).  That's a _slogan_ that is _not supported by anything that FM does_.  

FM makes members.  It is up to each member to do the Work that makes him better.  That Work ain't making new members.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 27, 2017)

coachn said:


> FM makes members. It is up to each member to do the Work that makes him better. That Work ain't making new members.


Hadn't thought of it from this point of view. Something to ponder.


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## coachn (Jan 27, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Hadn't thought of it from this point of view. Something to ponder.


Just saying it as it is.  It's only after you cut through all the dense thickets and underbrush when you can then possibly begin to see the Freemasonic forest far too many men get lost in.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 27, 2017)

coachn said:


> Just saying it as it is. It's only after you cut through all the dense thickets and underbrush when you can then possibly begin to see the Freemasonic forest far too many men get lost in.


Wise words. The longer that I am here, the more that I learn. The more that I learn, the more questions that I have.


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## Brother JC (Jan 27, 2017)

The work of Masonry is to make Masons. Sadly, that has somehow transformed to "make members."


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## coachn (Jan 27, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> The work of Masonry is to make Masons. Sadly, that has somehow transformed to "make members."


Yep.  That's because it is the mission of Freemasonry to make members, not masons.  If it were to make masons, we have builders as a result of its process.


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## BullDozer Harrell (Jan 27, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> I think one of the issues is the advertised loss of the genuine secrets.  In that context, with no GL moving to recover the genuine secrets, there is no hope of bringing more knowledge into Masonry, and the on-going prospect that the death of the oldest brethren effects a loss of knowledge.
> 
> Thus the official status of Masonry (being without the genuine secrets) implies that at best Masonry can remain static in its knowledge and at worst will lose knowledge with every passing generation.
> 
> If only Masonry were a science.  Then like any science, knowledge would increase from the efforts of each generation.


A counter view would be that Masonry is a progressive moral science for an individual. The improvement of a man never plays out or passes away from generation to generation. 

Android OS Nougat 7.0


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## JJones (Jan 27, 2017)

Browncoat said:


> the reasoning for low numbers seems to be the opposite of what it should be: it's not because lodges are being selective of candidates. It's because there aren't enough candidates interested in Freemasonry, and that's a problem.



I believe the two are related somewhat. Once you become more selective, more people will become interested because suddenly it's hard to get into and membership actually means something.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 28, 2017)

JJones said:


> I believe the two are related somewhat. Once you become more selective, more people will become interested because suddenly it's hard to get into and membership actually means something.



Bro Jones, nail on the head. This is what it really boils down to at the end of the day. If the business model is let virtually anyone join, short of felons, it becomes as someone said before, the Walmart of fraternities. Even when you swing the door wide open as it is now with lower dues (surely they'll join for virtually free!), t-shirts and shorts (see, we're a casual, every man's group), no Masonic education (Let's get in and get out), fear of talking esoteric topics (we're not voodoo or witchcraft!) etc, the numbers are still dropping. It's time a for change. It's really Einstein's definition of insanity  with the way things have been going the last 40-50 years. If you raise the dues, it's gotta have some quality though No more Little Caesars pizza (no offense LCs) for dinner on paper plates or last minute ham sandwiches. It's no more wood paneling walls and shag carpet lodge rooms. Old buildings are fine, but good old. 1800s old, not 1979 old. If new, make them new.  When young guys drive by there and see junk, they equate the entire fraternity as junk and think, 'why would I want to joint that?" If those lodges can't keep their doors open, the 'business model' is failing and they should maybe close.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 28, 2017)

JJones said:


> Once you become more selective, more people will become interested because suddenly it's hard to get into and membership actually means something.


Good point!


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## jermy Bell (Jan 28, 2017)

I've seen in a couple lodges I visit regularly, it's quantity, not so much quality.


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## BullDozer Harrell (Jan 28, 2017)

jermy Bell said:


> I've seen in a couple lodges I visit regularly, it's quantity, not so much quality.


Yep, I've seen the same thing. 

Recently i had to 'put an egg on the nose' of a Brother who was bragging to me that his lodge had over 300+ members. 

I said that's huge but how many Masons are there in that big mix?  He was confused until i explained to him my view of the difference between members & Masons.

Every member is not a Mason. Quantity doesn't match or beat quality.

Samsung Galaxy devices


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## CLewey44 (Jan 28, 2017)

Not to mention, who's showing up vs who is paying dues every year and hasn't been to lodge in 5 years?


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 28, 2017)

jermy Bell said:


> I've seen in a couple lodges I visit regularly, it's quantity, not so much quality.


Case in point....I visited a lodge to watch an MM proficiency. We all needed prompting a few times but this one consisted of the guy pretty much repeating what the lecturer said.


BullDozer Harrell said:


> Every member is not a Mason. Quantity doesn't match or beat quality.





CLewey44 said:


> Not to mention, who's showing up vs who is paying dues every year and hasn't been to lodge in 5 years?


Exactly.


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## jermy Bell (Jan 28, 2017)

We also have around 200 members,  but barely enough to open for business. But no one cares as long as they keep paid up. And a few that do show up treat it like a club house, and preach, but won't do anything.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Feb 5, 2017)

Someone much wiser than me once said, "We are diamonds in the rough, and our goal is to polish our diamond to it's greatest brilliance.  But what people don't realize is that polishing usually involves a lot of heat and pressure".  I believe something similar could be said about the Perfect Ashler.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 5, 2017)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Someone much wiser than me once said, "We are diamonds in the rough, and our goal is to polish our diamond to it's greatest brilliance.  But what people don't realize is that polishing usually involves a lot of heat and pressure".  I believe something similar could be said about the Perfect Ashler.


Agreed! Some people strive more than others, some not at all.


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## grayflannelsuit (Feb 7, 2017)

Just went through this whole thread, and it was simultaneously enlightening and a tad discouraging I must admit.


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## Bloke (Feb 8, 2017)

grayflannelsuit said:


> Just went through this whole thread, and it was simultaneously enlightening and a tad discouraging I must admit.


Don't worry brother if "standards have been lowered" it makes it much easier to lift them, and if not, then that's good too - win win !


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 8, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Don't worry brother if "standards have been lowered" it makes it much easier to lift them, and if not, then that's good too - win win !


Absolutely!


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## jermy Bell (Feb 8, 2017)

How is it good if standards have been lowered?  Might as well call yourself a sticker mason.


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## Bloke (Feb 8, 2017)

Hi Jeremy



jermy Bell said:


> How is it good if standards have been lowered?  Might as well call yourself a sticker mason.



I am not sure what a "sticker mason" is but I can guess... it reminds me of a PM at a lodge I used to visit who spoke of 'west wind masons" because men would blow in and out of the west end of the lodge, never doing much. I would suggest they did that because they heard his speak of "west wind masons" which condemned rather than encouraged....two such "west wind masons" from that very lodge are now PMs of my mother lodge after transfer , good Freemasons and very good friends..... and the lodge where that PM used to talk about "west wind masons" ? It's warrant went in and for one reason - people were not positive, and they were not willing to change, and those voices held sway.




Bloke said:


> Don't worry brother if "standards have been lowered" it makes it much easier to lift them, and if not, then that's good too - win win !



I stand by the above, because it is optimistic. You will never able to achieve "high standards" without optimism.

I also know Lodges, and indeed the whole craft, ebb and flow.. for me, there is only one standard we should not move one - the high standard of the character of candidates, but that too changes, we admit gay men, once we may not have and some places still dont  (friendly nod to Bro Oscar Wilde and all gay brothers), we admit divorced men, once we many not have and its not even a question on a petition or considered in any place I am aware of, we admit people from certain religions and ethnic groups where we may not have, and we are only able to do so because standards change (up or down depending on one's view, but I think most people would say up because admitting a black Muslim of good character is Masonic, but might not have happened in some states in recent history. If your "lowering of standards" is about colour, race or religion, then you must ask yourself if Freemasonry is the right fit for you, and indeed in all things look to, and in, yourself before you start worrying about others.. leading by example is very important.)

I spent several years looking after a mentally ill niece 10 years my junior, my goal was to keep her alive and get her independent. It took 4 years and was frankly harrowing. I tried all sorts of things for her and one was together reading a book on recovery which had a line I it I will never forget "If something is worth doing, then it is worth doing _badly_.". I will never forget it because I dont set out to do things badly, no no no, I set out to do them well, but the book argued to get better you need to start trying things and failure will be part of the trying, but it will get better and easier. I think "If something is worth doing, then it is worth doing badly" is actually quite profound and as someone with a bit of perfectionism about me (not in spelling and typing lol...sorry) it is a great thing to remember, because little in life is perfect...

Freemasonry might not be perfect, but "If something is worth doing, then it is worth doing badly.".. because in the doing, one day you will get to the point where you want it to be.. and let's not forget, Freemasonry primary purpose is to change the individual, to change you so that's where you should always start with your problems, with the questions "what can I do to make things better?"

I'm a 3x PM of two lodges, one, my mother lodge known for being friendly and its masonic spirit, the other for being friendly, young, kids and family and some of the best ritual work around at the moment (I am DC there and the team will tell you I'm very interested in standards, I'm not, I am interested in learning, "standards" are just a byproduct of that....). Standards are very important, but neither of these lodges have been able to hold the same standard in the last decade. They have ebbed and flowed, but what makes them both great is they are interesting in improvement because they realize they are doing something they enjoy and is worthwhile.

If you're not enjoying or doing something you believe in, you need to make adjustments to make at least one of those two things a reality for yourself. That might mean leaving Freemasonry, it might mean changing lodges, it might just mean walking into your current lodge with a new attitude.



> Fed up, and just about done with masonry


For me, Freemasonry is about finding a better me. I can't see how I will ever be done with that...


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## jermy Bell (Feb 8, 2017)

A sticker mason is a a person who enjoys the rights and. Benfits of being a mason, got the S&C stickers  in their car or truck window, bumper sticker, and never show up for anything,  or  or show back up.


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## Bloke (Feb 8, 2017)

jermy Bell said:


> A sticker mason is a a person who enjoys the rights and. Benfits of being a mason, got the S&C stickers  in their car or truck window, bumper sticker, and never show up for anything,  or  or show back up.


Never heard the term. It would apply to a friend of mine who for 18 years did not go to lodge... he was dragged to ours by a friend about 8 years ago, and after a career and kids got involved again. He became Master, attends most meetings, is the President of our Building Trust, organises charity dos.. etc... don't write those guys completely off. Time and circumstance might prohibit them attending, but they are supporting the Craft in their own way. (attendance at our lodge is about 70% of members, so I perhaps dont have the same feels you have about being left high and dry by our membership... but if we did not have attending, those "sticker masons" are likely where your rescue will be..)


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## Glen Cook (Feb 9, 2017)

I read a GM UT address c. 1874.  He lamented that in a lodge of 100, only 10 would come to a meeting. 

I am unaware of a US GL which has an obligatory requirement that one attend.  We certainly don't object to receiving the dues/subs from a less active member.  I wonder how many have been called in 20 years by a lodge officer?

We have met the enemy, and he is us. (Ref. Pogo).


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## coachn (Feb 9, 2017)

I have no problem whatsoever with sticker masons.  They support the lodge through paying dues and are doing what our program asks, living a good life.

What exact are those rights and benefits that sticker masons are enjoying?


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## coachn (Feb 9, 2017)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> A counter view would be that Masonry is a progressive moral science for an individual. The improvement of a man never plays out or passes away from generation to generation.


Masonry is a progressive science, when practiced. 

Freemasonry is not, no matter how it is practiced. It is an "art"; there are profound difference!


CLewey44 said:


> Not to mention, who's showing up vs who is paying dues every year and hasn't been to lodge in 5 years?


If they pay their dues and don't show up, we should applaud them, not act like they are doing something wrong.  Neither Freemasonry or Masonry demands or require attendance at meetings.


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## CLewey44 (Feb 9, 2017)

I see what you mean, but I would imagine them not participating at all in lodge would correlate with them not being involved in Masonry on their own as well (self-study) and I would then venture to say, frankly, 'what's the point?' Most especially if it's been many years and no sign of them getting back in. Granted old age or handicapped people, illness, that's obviously different but I would be willing to bet most that pay and never show are probably quite capable of doing so and maybe have lost the will to be there or self-study too and therefore completely lost all desire for Masonry. That could be due to their lodge failing them just as well.


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## Zack (Feb 9, 2017)

[QUOTE="coachn, post: 174283, member: 2329.

If they pay their dues and don't show up, we should applaud them, not act like they are doing something wrong.  Neither Freemasonry or Masonry demands or require attendance at meetings.[/QUOTE]

They keep the electric on for those do attend.   APPLAUSE!  APPLAUSE!


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 9, 2017)

Bloke said:


> If you're not enjoying or doing something you believe in, you need to make adjustments to make at least one of those two things a reality for yourself.


Totally agree. I love what I am doing in Masonry and the appendant bodies.


jermy Bell said:


> A sticker mason is a a person who enjoys the rights and. Benfits of being a mason, got the S&C stickers in their car or truck window, bumper sticker, and never show up for anything, or or show back up.


I refer to them as "Title Hunters". For example, someone that joins the Knights Templar so that they can use this title but then never attend another meeting.


CLewey44 said:


> I see what you mean, but I would imagine them not participating at all in lodge would correlate with them not being involved in Masonry on their own as well (self-study) and I would then venture to say, frankly, 'what's the point?'


Yep.


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## Brother JC (Feb 9, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> We have met the enemy, and he is us. (Ref. Pogo).


A Pogo reference is always germane.


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## coachn (Feb 9, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> I see what you mean, but I would imagine them not participating at all in lodge would correlate with them not being involved in Masonry on their own as well (self-study) and I would then venture to say, frankly, 'what's the point?' Most especially if it's been many years and no sign of them getting back in. Granted old age or handicapped people, illness, that's obviously different but I would be willing to bet most that pay and never show are probably quite capable of doing so and maybe have lost the will to be there or self-study too and therefore completely lost all desire for Masonry. That could be due to their lodge failing them just as well.


You are assuming many things.  What's the point? 
1) Some merely want to be associated with the organization after their raising.
2) Some want to be associated so that when they retire, they have a place they start attending at.
There are many of us still in the workforce with family activities.  Lodge is sometimes 8th or 9th on the list.  The fact that dues paying members don't attend is irrelevant! Be grateful for their support and stop with guilt trips based upon unfounded conjectures.
The lodge didn't fail.  These brothers have their priorities straight!


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## coachn (Feb 9, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> I refer to them as "Title Hunters". For example, someone that joins the Knights Templar so that they can use this title but then never attend another meeting.


If they earned the title, what business is it of ours if they don't attend?  The fact is, most meetings are boring as hell.  Those that don't attend know it makes no difference whatsoever if they attend or not, other than not being bored.


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## Brother JC (Feb 9, 2017)

Our SW has been a Mason for decades but was in the Air Force when he joined. He has never set foot in his Mother Lodge since he was Raised, didn't attend lodge for nearly 30 years. Now he is a PM, Hiram Awardee, white hat, and an integral part of Masonry in the area.
As CoachN said, "...priorities..."


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 9, 2017)

coachn said:


> If they earned the title, what business is it of ours if they don't attend?  The fact is, most meetings are boring as hell.  Those that don't attend know it makes no difference whatsoever if they attend or not, other than not being bored.


I understand what you are saying. I was basing this on the statement of a guy that I went through the Orders with. While going through he told the rest of us that he just wanted to be able to put "KT" by his name and never intended to be active.


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## coachn (Feb 9, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> I understand what you are saying. I was basing this on the statement of a guy that I went through the Orders with. While going through he told the rest of us that he just wanted to be able to put "KT" by his name and never intended to be active.


Does he pay his dues without fail?


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## CLewey44 (Feb 9, 2017)

awesome


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## Bill Lins (Feb 9, 2017)

coachn said:


> The lodge didn't fail.  These brothers have their priorities straight!


I can't necessarily agree with this. What would happen if there were no one to accept the responsibility of serving as an officer? No one to accept the responsibility of attending to the business of the Lodge? No one to work in Degrees? No one to teach candidates? We ALL have a responsibility to keep our Lodges in operation. Those who accept the benefits of Masonry but do not accept the attendant responsibilities do NOT have their priorities straight- they owe their Lodges much more than simply paying dues.


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## jermy Bell (Feb 9, 2017)

So, after reading a lot of the replies ,I'm confused.  So some are saying that it's alright to join something, have nothing to do with it, is OK ? So I can quit going to lodge, meetings, degree work and toss my blue book in the trash, and keep my dues paid up, and I can go around telling everyone I'm a mason, because it's a cool title ? These are the people I'm talking about. And I know a hand full. It's a bragging right of theres.


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## Elexir (Feb 10, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> In my  mind there is a question here:  having been raised, is it necessary to attend any lodge ever again?
> 
> Surely the MM can be an active Mason in daily life without needing to attend rituals?



A MM is just a mason who has been given tools.
The ritual help with the work.


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## Bloke (Feb 10, 2017)

I think to develop as a Freemason, you need to be going to Lodge. I also think as a Freemason, you need to focus on your own conduct first as it is the only thing you can control. Me, I felt like in initiating, passing and raising me, I owed a debt to the lodge and only had that experience because someone had put the time into learning the lines and lessons and delivering them in lodge and coaching me outside lodge so I try to pay that debt forward to others by doing what was done for me and learning the lines and showing up etc.

So I have a debt I try to pay forward, but that does not mean everyone should do as I do and in the same way.. hopefully some follow the example, just as I did (and they are, there were only 2 PMs in the ceremony and all the other work was done by MMs) but if some dont, but still support the lodge, even if only by paying dues, I am grateful for their support and continuing commitment, even if it is not the same as others' contribution..

Freemasonry is both a team sport and individual pursuit, but it is as individual where the real work of Freemasonry is done and there is nothing to say those "sticker masons" are not doing it... perhaps simply by being a better father, person. citizen etc... but you're  much more likely to apply  Freemasonry with positive effect if you understand the Craft, and that understanding should be developed by lodge attendance.


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## coachn (Feb 10, 2017)

Bill Lins said:


> I can't necessarily agree with this. What would happen if there were no one to accept the responsibility of serving as an officer? No one to accept the responsibility of attending to the business of the Lodge? No one to work in Degrees? No one to teach candidates? We ALL have a responsibility to keep our Lodges in operation. Those who accept the benefits of Masonry but do not accept the attendant responsibilities do NOT have their priorities straight- they owe their Lodges much more than simply paying dues.


I believe your questions are based in fear and have nothing to do with being qualified as a member.

I asked quite a few posts ago what the "Benefits & Rights" were and no one responded.  I believe they are voluntarily enjoyed; they are not mandatory.

Responsibilities do not include "running the lodge" or "attending meetings".  In fact, life takes priority over lodge activities, ALWAYS!  Those who get caught up on an unfounded guilt trip are usually the ones who get most upset when others do not buy into it and who have their priorities proper for themselves.

I believe those who adequately assess membership responsibilities of the jurisdiction will come to understand that they are to continue being a good man and practice Masonic principles.  Attendance or running the lodge are elective responsibilities only. 

Members do not owe anything to the lodge other than what I just mentioned AND dues payments.  "Guilting" anyone with what you have mentioned is counterproductive and morally wrong.

BTW - It's been my experience that those who get caught up in these guilt trips eventually get bitter and attack those who don't; this behavior drives members away.


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## coachn (Feb 10, 2017)

jermy Bell said:


> So, after reading a lot of the replies ,I'm confused.  So some are saying that it's alright to join something, have nothing to do with it, is OK ?


Yep.  They are not doing anything wrong or not ok.


jermy Bell said:


> So I can quit going to lodge, meetings, degree work and toss my blue book in the trash, and keep my dues paid up, and I can go around telling everyone I'm a mason, because it's a cool title ?


You could.  But tossing the book and bragging would look foolish.


jermy Bell said:


> These are the people I'm talking about. And I know a hand full.


And they are not taken seriously by those who do the same but actually practice Masonry in their lives.  To be fair, I see attendees and officers who do a lot of bragging who go through the motions at lodge but are the worse examples of members outside the lodge than you can imagine.  

If you just look at attendance and officer-ship as the ideal, you miss the point of what the organization is shooting for: Making Good Me Better! 


jermy Bell said:


> It's a bragging right of theres.


Theirs...


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## goomba (Feb 10, 2017)

There are active and inactive members some of each are living according to the principles of our fraternity and some are not.  My lodge a business (not tyled) meeting to plan the year.  Turned out lodge meeting was code of temple association meeting.  After about 10 minutes of hearing issues with the building I interrupted and asked "do these things need to be fixed?"  and the person said "yeah that's why we are talking about it."  My reply was "well lets fix it and not talk.  I didn't become a mason to talk about gutters and landscaping." 

This might be why some people skip the lodge.  We focus to much on the superficial stuff that really doesn't matter.  I think it's probably because to many are either afraid or unable to do Masonic work and I do not mean ritual.


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## Elexir (Feb 10, 2017)

goomba said:


> There are active and inactive members some of each are living according to the principles of our fraternity and some are not.  My lodge a business (not tyled) meeting to plan the year.  Turned out lodge meeting was code of temple association meeting.  After about 10 minutes of hearing issues with the building I interrupted and asked "do these things need to be fixed?"  and the person said "yeah that's why we are talking about it."  My reply was "well lets fix it and not talk.  I didn't become a mason to talk about gutters and landscaping."
> 
> This might be why some people skip the lodge.  We focus to much on the superficial stuff that really doesn't matter.  I think it's probably because to many are either afraid or unable to do Masonic work and I do not mean ritual.



Most of the mundane work here is done outside of lodge in comites and our lodge meeting focus on degrees or education and it makes for a more flowing experience. We have one economics and election lodge but these are short and is fallowed by a standard lodge meeting.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 10, 2017)

coachn said:


> Does he pay his dues without fail?


As far as I know. I just don't see the point of what he did. Just my personal opinion.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 10, 2017)

jermy Bell said:


> So, after reading a lot of the replies ,I'm confused.  So some are saying that it's alright to join something, have nothing to do with it, is OK ? So I can quit going to lodge, meetings, degree work and toss my blue book in the trash, and keep my dues paid up, and I can go around telling everyone I'm a mason, because it's a cool title ? These are the people I'm talking about. And I know a hand full. It's a bragging right of theres.


Agreed. This is what I am talking about.


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## dfreybur (Feb 10, 2017)

Lodges have their own life cycle.  Lodges are born, live and die.

In the US there is a great deal of resistance to seeing a lodge die.  I think that's because we have a tradition in our country to grow lodges to very large size instead of a tradition of hiving new lodges whenever the membership grows over 100.

Do we "all" have a responsibility to serve our lodges to keep them from failing?  I have such a responsibility.  I don't get to say another Brother has.  Think of the number of apprentices, fellow crafts, masters and grand masters at King Solomon's temple.

If the duty of a Lodge is to make Masons, then isn't the duty of a Grand Lodge to make lodges?  Masons live and die so we have to make new Masons.  The same is true of lodges no matter how much we fight against the tides.


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## Brother JC (Feb 10, 2017)

coachn said:


> Making Good Me Better!


There we go, the Work defined.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 10, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> If the duty of a Lodge is to make Masons, then isn't the duty of a Grand Lodge to make lodges? Masons live and die so we have to make new Masons. The same is true of lodges no matter how much we fight against the tides.


Very true.


dfreybur said:


> In the US there is a great deal of resistance to seeing a lodge die.


Also true. For example, a Commandery had dwindling numbers and some of the members put out feelers to merge with mine. We told them that they were welcome to do this. However, some of the long time members did not want to see their Commandery fold so they nixed the idea. Now they quite frequently have to cancel meetings because there are not enough members present to open.


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## coachn (Feb 10, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> As far as I know. I just don't see the point of what he did. Just my personal opinion.


And you don't have to.  His reasons are his reasons; not your reasoning.


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## coachn (Feb 10, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> There we go, the Work defined.


That's the goal/objective.  It is not the Work though.  

Better "Good Men" is the result of the Work. 

The Work though is something that many have no clue about.  Very few have taken the time to think it through.  Even fewer can describe the Work. 

Far too many believe with all their heart that the Work is memorizing and doing Ritual.  That's just the road map/instruction set.  It is NOT the Work.


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## Brother JC (Feb 10, 2017)

I'm not sure if it was a typo, @coachn , but I particularly like the "good me" comment. There is only one man I can change and that's me. If that change brings about a positive change in the lodge or Brethren, even better.


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## coachn (Feb 10, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> I'm not sure if it was a typo, @coachn , but I particularly like the "good me" comment. There is only one man I can change and that's me. If that change brings about a positive change in the lodge or Brethren, even better.


Admittedly, it was a type-o originally, I caught it and then said to myself, "Leave it!  See is someone catches the double MEaning."   

Freemasons should only take a Brother's inventory when he is actually doing something WRONG.  Not when he isn't living up to our unrealistic expectations.

KUDOS!!!


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## Brother_Steve (Feb 10, 2017)

grayflannelsuit said:


> Just went through this whole thread, and it was simultaneously enlightening and a tad discouraging I must admit.


I am going to agree with you IF we're on the same train of thought.

Anyone who has knelt before the altar and took the obligations is a Mason regardless of what we think. They are not "members."

Remember, those men that are being called "members" were voted on by men who attend lodge. They were not brought into the fraternity via some membrane from another dimension.

Some men might not be great at ritual. Some men might not be esoteric. Some men might not be leadership quality but they are Masons nonetheless.

Now, if you have an issue with someone because of moral shortcomings, then they will filter themselves out IF they got past the IC and Ballot Box. I've seen plenty of Brothers get the cold shoulder because of their choices in life and I've not seen them back in Lodge.


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## coachn (Feb 10, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> ...Anyone who has knelt before the altar and took the obligations is a Mason regardless of what we think. They are not "members."...


If they are on the lodge roster and are paid up, they are indeed "members".  What's more, if they belong to the fraternity, they are members.  We have a whole bunch of "members"; every last one of them are Freemasons.

However, are they all Masons?  That's a whole different potato to peel.


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## Bloke (Feb 10, 2017)

coachn said:


> I believe your questions are based in fear and have nothing to do with being qualified as a member.
> 
> I asked quite a few posts ago what the "Benefits & Rights" were and no one responded.  I believe they are voluntarily enjoyed; they are not mandatory.
> 
> ...



I think this "guilt trip" point Coach makes is very important. Freemasons often use it to try to get people to lodge, but it is a bad bad method and actually can be damaging. You need members to be there because they want to be, not because they have been emotionally blackmailed and I say guiting members to attend is counter productive because you need happy members who want to be there, not ones who are unhappily there because they've been guilted into it. Hence my 





> So I have a debt I try to pay forward, but that does not mean everyone should do as I do and in the same way.. hopefully some follow the example, just as I did (and they are, there were only 2 PMs in the ceremony and all the other work was done by MMs) but if some dont, but still support the lodge, even if only by paying dues, I am grateful for their support and continuing commitment, even if it is not the same as others' contribution..



At the end of the day, any gift should be given without strings, if it s given with conditions, it's not really a gift, it is a transaction... but on reading what I wrote in the sentence "At the end of the day, any gift should be given without strings, if it s given with conditions, it's not really a gift, it is a transaction" degrees do create mutual (and I do mean MUTUAL) obligations.. at its simplest, that obligation is to meet the promises you make and to particularity obey to Const.. but our Second and Third degree Obligations doe have the lines about  "answer and obey all lawful.. summonses, if within the length of my cable tow" ... some folk seem to have very short cable tows and I often wonder about that but try not to judge unless is positively, for instance, we had a guy only recently recovered from illness attend last meeting, and a bro with one leg to struggles up our stairs very meeting, but hardly misses one... I think that effort is fantastic and often point out their commitment. Indeed its inspired me to show up when I have not felt like it (esp a meeting a few years ago when the lodge was in mourning for my proposer..)


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## Bill Lins (Feb 10, 2017)

Bloke said:


> I think to develop as a Freemason, you need to be going to Lodge. I also think as a Freemason, you need to focus on your own conduct first as it is the only thing you can control. Me, I felt like in initiating, passing and raising me, I owed a debt to the lodge and only had that experience because someone had put the time into learning the lines and lessons and delivering them in lodge and coaching me outside lodge so I try to pay that debt forward to others by doing what was done for me and learning the lines and showing up etc.


Amen! I felt the exact same way. I had (& have) respect & admiration for those who conferred my Degrees and took the time to teach me not only the catechism, but, more importantly, what it means & how to live as a Mason. I felt & continue to feel that I owed it to the Fraternity to emulate, to the best of my ability, their example.


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## Bill Lins (Feb 10, 2017)

coachn said:


> I believe your questions are based in fear.


The only thing I fear is that Lodges will cease to exist without Brethren accepting their responsibilities in assisting with the work of the Lodge



coachn said:


> I asked quite a few posts ago what the "Benefits & Rights" were and no one responded.


Well, forgive me for not responding sooner. You see, like most of the Brethren of my Lodge, I am not retired. Of our officers, only one is not working. Roughly half of the rest of us are self-employed and the other half have "real" jobs. In fact, our SW not only runs his own ready-mix business, but also has 5 kids. Trust me, he neither neglects his business nor his family. Masonry is important enough to him that he finds time to be involved- he knows full well the lesson of the 24-inch gauge. As to your question, the benefits & rights are to be able to meet on the level with others who have the same interest, to have a place where like-minded Brethren can meet to fellowship & learn about Masonry and to perform the work that teaches the lessons of Masonry.



coachn said:


> life takes priority over lodge activities, ALWAYS!


Of course it does. That IS the lesson of the 24-inch gauge. One will always find time for that which is important to him- the lesson is to keep all in balance.

Coachn, it is obvious from your statements that you have a serious problem with the _institution _of Masonry. At times, I get aggravated with it also. However, it is a necessary evil with which we must deal in order to pursue the _ideals _of Masonry.


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## coachn (Feb 10, 2017)

Bill Lins said:


> The only thing I fear is that Lodges will cease to exist without Brethren accepting their responsibilities in assisting with the work of the Lodge


Your fear is based upon an assumption that is unfounded.  Brethren do not have that responsibility unless they volunteer to take it upon themselves.


Bill Lins said:


> Well, forgive me for not responding sooner.


Forgiveness given! Nice of you to step up to the plate.  KUDOS!


Bill Lins said:


> You see, like most of the Brethren of my Lodge, I am not retired.


That makes two of us.  We should start a club! and get polo shirts with logos!


Bill Lins said:


> Of our officers, only one is not working. Roughly half of the rest of us are self-employed and the other half have "real" jobs. In fact, our SW not only runs his own ready-mix business, but also has 5 kids. Trust me, he neither neglects his business nor his family.


You have not given me any reason to mistrust you, yet.


Bill Lins said:


> Masonry is important enough to him that he finds time to be involved- he knows full well the lesson of the 24-inch gauge.


Kudos to him.  He finds time to be involved "with lodge activities".  That is his way.  Others have their own ways.


Bill Lins said:


> As to your question, the benefits & rights are to be able to meet on the level with others who have the same interest, to have a place where like-minded Brethren can meet to fellowship & learn about Masonry and to perform the work that teaches the lessons of Masonry.


What you have shared is not something that is limited to attending meetings.  It is one way; it is not the only way.


Bill Lins said:


> Of course it does. That IS the lesson of the 24-inch gauge. One will always find time for that which is important to him- the lesson is to keep all in balance.


I'm glad that you agree.


Bill Lins said:


> Coachn, it is obvious from your statements that you have a serious problem with the _institution _of Masonry.


You have no idea what you are talking about Bill.  I have no problems whatsoever with the institution.  It is designed to do exactly what it does and it does it splendidly. The fact that you have concluded this from my statements tells me that you have some baggage that biases your view of me.  Good luck with that. 

BTW - My trust factor is now on alert...


Bill Lins said:


> At times, I also get aggravated with it also.


There are helpful programs for that.


Bill Lins said:


> However, it is a necessary evil with which we must deal in order to pursue the _ideals _of Masonry.


One does not have to attend lodge to pursue the ideals of Masonry.  In fact, should you attend Lodge to pursue these ideals, you might just become aggravated.  The fact that you have concluded there are necessary evils in lodge make me wonder what fraternity you belong to.

BTW - I love the fraternity; and my Brothers.  I merely don't suffer foolish members who have preconceived notions that give then the mistaken believe it is more than they make it to be nor do I hold back when they try to impose their foolish baggage upon others.  We all deserve much better.


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## Bloke (Feb 10, 2017)

> life takes priority over lodge activities, ALWAYS!



Not quite always I think. 

If I accept an office, I've made a commitment. If a Master asks "Can you please attend all meetings of the lodge while in that office, emergencies accepted" and I say I will, it means for one night a month (and rehearsal) Lodge actually comes first because I've made a promise - emergencies accepted and they are not things which can be rescheduled or a man should be able to overcome.. If that means I am tired but need to push through or need to be up at 3 am to meet a deadline or will only get a few hours sleep,  or my family has to go without me or I miss something (including income), then to keep my word I will make extreme effort to be at lodge. Now, my attendance is not 100% even if in important office, I've missed lodge for my nephew and nieces 21st & engagement, (on my nephew's 21st who I am godfather to,  I was in the chair and the lodge agreed to oven the meeting so I could be there), I was seriously ill, my partner *really needed* me ... Again, this is my standard for myself.... and my family knows to try to avoid the 1st Sat and 2nd Thurs of the month. Our SD will not be at our next two meetings because of a close friends bucks night and then wedding,  which is where he should be and not lodge, I've seen a Master put an apology in for a Wedding Anniversary (as well he should)... and again, we should not guilt a Brother into missing such a mementos occasion - the result of that will be we will loose him in the team and maybe even as a member..

We're not some crazy cult where people should be there or admonished for not showing up, we need to treat each other like adults, but we also need to act like one.. but we are men of honour and if we make an undertaking should keep it, and if in question, qualify the undertaking or not make it.

(A qualification on the above; Attendance is much easier here.. because we only meet once a month... I am not sure I would have joined the Craft if it was weekly and doubt  I would have taken office..)


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## goomba (Feb 10, 2017)

When I first joined I thought "man only twice a month. no big deal."  Now I do prefer my lodge that meets once a month and have thought 4-6 meetings per year would be perfect.  Granted with 4-6 missing one meeting would be a huge chuck.

Blue Lodge:  24                                                         
York Rite:  12                                                             
Practice:  10-24                                                         
Other Masonic Bodies:  6                                       
Total:  52 days                                                           

Blue Lodge:  4
York Rite:  4
Practice:  10
Other:  6
Total:  24

I think by slowing down the lodge it would help prevent burn out, increase membership/attendance in the lodge, and increase membership/attendance in other bodies.  You would be able to spread your time on different aspects of the Craft without feeling like your neglecting another part.  Maybe that's why our English brothers meet much less in lodge than we do in  the USA.  I think the average is 4-8 meetings per year for lodge.  Look at the Metropolitan Grand Lodge of London (a province of UGLE) they have a group of lodges that are for college age men.  They may be on to something.


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## coachn (Feb 11, 2017)

Most important points *BOLDED AND UNDERLINED*...


Bloke said:


> I think this "guilt trip" point Coach makes is very important. Freemasons often use it to try to get people to lodge, but it is a bad bad method and actually can be damaging. *You need members to be there because they want to be, not because they have been emotionally blackmailed* and I say *guilting members to attend is counter productive* because you need happy members who want to be there, not ones who are unhappily there because they've been guilted into it. ..
> 
> At the end of the day, *any gift should be given without strings*, if it s given with conditions, it's *not really a gift, it is a transaction*... but on reading what I wrote in the sentence "At the end of the day, any gift should be given without strings, if it s given with conditions, it's not really a gift, it is a transaction" degrees do create mutual (and I do mean MUTUAL) obligations.. at its simplest, that obligation is to meet the promises you make and to particularity obey to Const.. but our Second and Third degree Obligations doe have the lines about  "answer and obey all lawful.. summonses,* if within the length of my cable tow*" ... some folk seem to have very short cable tows and I often wonder about that but try not to judge unless is positively, for instance, we had a guy only recently recovered from illness attend last meeting, and a bro with one leg to struggles up our stairs very meeting, but hardly misses one... I think that effort is fantastic and often point out their commitment. Indeed its inspired me to show up when I have not felt like it (esp a meeting a few years ago when the lodge was in mourning for my proposer..)



(Not directed to you Bloke)

At the end of the day, membership is totally voluntary and so is attendance.  Everyone has their own priorities and reasons for being members and participating as they see fit.

Moreover, the obligations are between God and the member taking them upon himself, and will be judged by himself and God alone and rightfully so; not other members unless they forget to circumscribe their passions.  The only judging a member can rightfully do of another has to do with the jurisdiction's digest of law and it must ALWAYS include the "Cable-Tow Clause".

Furthermore, if you cannot absolutely and unconditionally value and respect a man's contribution to the fraternity if all he does is pay dues, they you have yet to understand the true nature of the fraternity.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 11, 2017)

Bill Lins said:


> The only thing I fear is that Lodges will cease to exist without Brethren accepting their responsibilities in assisting with the work of the Lodge


Agreed!


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