# Shocking Dues Stats



## owls84 (Aug 13, 2009)

I pulled this from the 2009 List of Lodges Masonic. I put it into a spreadsheet and sorted by average dues amout. Look, I was suprised and saddened that other states are way low. I just don't understand how it could be this inexpensive. 

Lets discuss.


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## owls84 (Aug 13, 2009)

Here is sorted by amount that GL charges. 

Why are we 11th in avg. dues and 22nd in amount GL charges? 

I really don't know how I feel about this. One part says we should raise our GL dues to help support better programs and the other says the lodges need more money to survive.


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## A7V (Aug 13, 2009)

Interesting that the average is 37$ in Hawaii.  We only have around 7 lodges and I pay 65$ a year.


We actually have 11 lodges over 4 Islands with the most being on Oahu which has 7....  4 of the lodges on Oahu share a building.    Why do I pay 65$ a year when the average is 37? 

I don't really mind and personally I think the dues in Texas are too low.


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## JBD (Aug 13, 2009)

Excellent work! Very interesting.  Would you mind a) sharing the source and b) posting the Excel spreadsheet so others can play?


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## owls84 (Aug 13, 2009)

Yes It all came from the 2009 List of Lodges Masonic. There are footnotes that I didn't include but are again listed in the front of the book. There are a ton of other information in there as well but this is the one I noticed. 

Dues Amount By State


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## JBD (Aug 13, 2009)

owls84 said:


> Yes It all came from the 2009 List of Lodges Masonic. There are footnotes that I didn't include but are again listed in the front of the book. There are a ton of other information in there as well but this is the one I noticed.
> 
> Dues Amount By State




OK, so now I feel like a dummy you did say that in your original post - sorry 
Thanks for the spreadsheet.

PM coming your way as well


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## Wingnut (Aug 13, 2009)

I think you answered your own question:

GL needs to raise their returns amount so they dont have to ask the lodges to donate money.

Lodges need to raise their dues to cover returns, operating expense and have a little nest egg building.

It amazes me the number of lodges I see that are operating in the red and wonder why the craft is dying!!!


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## Wingnut (Aug 13, 2009)

Dont forget the average gets hosed by several lodges at the bottom.  That min of 15 in hawaii is bound to drag the average way down if there are more than a few that are that low, esp since HI has so few lodges.  Texas is a good example too, GL minimum is $30 a year.  Returns to Grand Lodge is $14.25.  One lodge I belong to is $50 the other is $100.


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## owls84 (Aug 13, 2009)

I just don't understand how we would rather pay for things by way of unfixed costs (fund raisers) than by making it a fixed cost (dues)? Would the few members you lose be surpassed by the revenue generated? Would the active membership decline? Why are we SO worried about raising dues to make up for lodge expenses? Yet we will shell out $100 on fundraisers all year long. All that does is make the active membership carry the burden. If dues were raised and members that are not active then chip in $10 a piece that is less that is mandatory for the lodege to worry about for fundraisers. I know this is not the case in all Lodges but WHY on earth would you be in the red after operating costs?  Would you buy a business like that?


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## Wingnut (Aug 13, 2009)

nope I wouldnt.  Maybe its because I was military enlisted with 3 kids and was always poor/broke but I cant fathom operating a lodge on a pay day to pay day mentality!  I spend more going out for dinner with my wife, and not a VERY NICE dinner just a decent dinner where you dont order from your car window!  We actually had someone say in lodge that if we raised the dues he couldnt afford to be in every appendent body and several extra groups at the shrine.  My unsaid reply was if you werent in every group (and participates none) you could pay $25 a year more in blue lodge dues...


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## A7V (Aug 13, 2009)

owls84 said:


> I just don't understand how we would rather pay for things by way of unfixed costs (fund raisers) than by making it a fixed cost (dues)? Would the few members you lose be surpassed by the revenue generated? Would the active membership decline? Why are we SO worried about raising dues to make up for lodge expenses? Yet we will shell out $100 on fundraisers all year long. All that does is make the active membership carry the burden. If dues were raised and members that are not active then chip in $10 a piece that is less that is mandatory for the lodege to worry about for fundraisers. I know this is not the case in all Lodges but WHY on earth would you be in the red after operating costs?  Would you buy a business like that?



That is very well said!  I for one despise fundraisers and would much rather pay more in dues than have someone tell me I have to go sell tickets or else pay for them.   

I understand that it all goes to the lodge, but the time and energy invested in doing a fundraiser probably costs more in the long run than you bring in.
That is just a guess on my part though.

I am not saying don't do stuff together as a lodge, programs like Adopt A Highway are great.   Also, if you want to do a fundraiser for a Brother who has had financial issues due to health concerns or something like that, then that is great, I am all for it, but not a fundraiser to keep the lights on, that is something due must cover imho.


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## Jamesb (Aug 13, 2009)

I brought up raising our dues at our last stated.  You should've seen the looks I got.


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## owls84 (Aug 13, 2009)

I also want to make this clear. I believe that a lot of the problem is approach. I have learned that if you do the research prepare for the opositions responses and deliever FACTS then it will be very hard for members to turn something down. If you do a budget and can show that the Lodge cannot survive without the fundraisers and put it in a perspective that is hard for them to argue you will be suprised at the result you get. 

That is how I approached asking my Lodge for money for a website. And you think asking to raise dues is hard. The brothers and I sit down and prepared ourselves for all the possible questions and it was suprisingly easy to get passed. And the results have shown. 

I am also with AV7 here on I enjoy doing fundraisers but the pressure that is added that we must turn a profit is too much. Too often lodges become focused on fundraisers and loose sight of the real light.


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## Wingnut (Aug 13, 2009)

A lawyer in one of my lodges said he bills at $400 an hour.  His time is worth that and doesnt think he should have to paint the building or fry fish, so he donates the equal amount in $$$.


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## A7V (Aug 13, 2009)

Wingnut said:


> A lawyer in one of my lodges said he bills at $400 an hour.  His time is worth that and doesnt think he should have to paint the building or fry fish, so he donates the equal amount in $$$.



I don't know how you feel about that, but I agree with him and perfectly fine with that.


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## Bryan (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm not exactly sure how accurate this information is because looking at Louisiana it says that the GL amount of dues is $13.00 bucks.  Its actually $20.00.   

So if that is wrong.  what else might be wrong.   

I know my home lodge dues are $100 bucks per year.  To become a perpetual member in my home lodge in Louisiana it cost $2000.00   which is 20 times ones annual dues.


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## owls84 (Aug 13, 2009)

Again this is just with what information is approved by our GL Committee on Masonic Education and Service. I have found instances where it has incorrect information on the GLoTX information. It also seems to be Mass produced because it has PHA of Conn. and CA listed as approved Lodges then when you read the fine print after GLoTX it states a list of Lodges it does not recognize. It is also missing Tranquillity Lodge No 2000 and a few others. I still don't think it would be that inaccurate. 

My question is if it is approved for use, WHO'S JOB IS IT TO CHECK IT FOR ACCURACY??? I am getting so frustrated with CRAP information.


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## HKTidwell (Aug 13, 2009)

So my initiation into the Blue lodge and Scottish rite was a whopping cost of $340 which is a average cost of $28.33 per month.  My yearly dues will be $150 which is an average cost of $12.50.  

My tobacco usage  a year is approximately $858 per year which is an average of $71.50 per month.  If I go to dinner one time a month I'll spend more then $12.50.

I'm sorry but it seems to me that the fees are a tad bit low.


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## Bryan (Aug 13, 2009)

I pay $80.00 bucks a month just for Direct TV.. and masonry is sooo much more important to me than direct TV is.


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## Sirius (Aug 13, 2009)

HKTidwell said:


> I'm sorry but it seems to me that the fees are a tad bit low.



Agreed.


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## Wingnut (Aug 13, 2009)

A7V said:


> I don't know how you feel about that, but I agree with him and perfectly fine with that.



I guess to me it comes down to what your doing the fund raising for...  Id much rather be a part of something at the Scottish Rite Hospital than a raffle.  To me charity is more than just money, its also the contact you have with people that your helping.  

I sure cant toss out $800, but I can find 2 hours of my Saturday to help with many things.  And the look on kids faces when you do something for them and they smile and say thank you or give you a hug is a reward unmatched.


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## Sirius (Aug 13, 2009)

Wingnut said:


> I guess to me it comes down to what your doing the fund raising for...  Id much rather be a part of something at the Scottish Rite Hospital than a raffle.  To me charity is more than just money, its also the contact you have with people that your helping.
> 
> I sure cant toss out $800, but I can find 2 hours of my Saturday to help with many things.  And the look on kids faces when you do something for them and they smile and say thank you or give you a hug is a reward unmatched.



Amen. I know I would rather participate in a fundraiser that helps someone rater  than pays the Lodge light bill.


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## HKTidwell (Aug 13, 2009)

Wingnut said:


> I guess to me it comes down to what your doing the fund raising for...  Id much rather be a part of something at the Scottish Rite Hospital than a raffle.  To me charity is more than just money, its also the contact you have with people that your helping.
> 
> I sure cant toss out $800, but I can find 2 hours of my Saturday to help with many things.  And the look on kids faces when you do something for them and they smile and say thank you or give you a hug is a reward unmatched.



I was by no means purposefully taking away from the value of giving time and energy to make a difference.  Giving up our time is a great thing and shouldn't be negated by dues.

Wingnut very good point.


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## RedTemplar (Aug 13, 2009)

To hold a fundraiser for Shriners Hospital or some other worthy cause is certainly one project masons should support.  To extract money from the public at large to pay the lodge light bill in my opinion is unmasonic conduct.  Your billfold is usually in the general vicinity of your heart.  Or put another way, we should contribute to the lodge "as much as its necessities may require and our ability to permit". Most lodges dues, including my own, are disgracefully low.


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## Blake Bowden (Aug 14, 2009)

Freemasonry is cheap as hell..period. I spend more on Red Bull.


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## Wingnut (Aug 14, 2009)

At least lodges cant do raffles now to raise money to pay the bills!


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## drapetomaniac (Aug 16, 2009)

Wingnut said:


> I sure cant toss out $800, but I can find 2 hours of my Saturday to help with many things.  And the look on kids faces when you do something for them and they smile and say thank you or give you a hug is a reward unmatched.



I agree.  I would hope most men don't take the time to calculate how much money is lost by sleeping, spending time with family - or sitting in lodge. If anything, I volunteer my professional services as well on occasion (as lawyers are often encouraged to do too).

The 24 inch gauge doesn't have dollar signs at the measuring mark.


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## JBD (Aug 16, 2009)

drapetomaniac said:


> i agree.  I would hope most men don't take the time to calculate how much money is lost by sleeping, spending time with family - or sitting in lodge. If anything, i volunteer my professional services as well on occasion (as lawyers are often encouraged to do too).
> 
> *the 24 inch gauge doesn't have dollar signs at the measuring mark*.



+1,000


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## LRG (Aug 16, 2009)

Not just lawyers but anyone who can not help or attend and donates money to cause, speaks of high volumes. At least they are helping one way or another.
Which they really do not have to do. We are a volunteer group, a brotherhood.


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## RedTemplar (Aug 16, 2009)

drapetomaniac said:


> I agree.  I would hope most men don't take the time to calculate how much money is lost by sleeping, spending time with family - or sitting in lodge. If anything, I volunteer my professional services as well on occasion (as lawyers are often encouraged to do too).
> 
> The 24 inch gauge doesn't have dollar signs at the measuring mark.



AMEN!

Nobody can do everything, but, everybody can do something.


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## Skogie (Aug 29, 2009)

I looked up the numbers on the chart for Arizona, since that's where I live.

Accurate numbers, no imitation of Gov't statistics.  Excellent and accurate chart.  The average of $50 dues per lodge is quite accurate and the $16 "per capita" tax from Grand Lodge is correct for 2009.  

HOWEVER!  The Grand Lodge "per capita tax" will go up by $4.26 on Jan 1, 2010.  A resolution was passed at the last Communication to raise the dues by a very interesting formula after trying for 5 years to raise the tax from $16 and failing every year.

This time the Budget was presented to all the Lodges BEFORE the annual commnication.  If anyone could find a way to reduce expenses or raise income for the Budget, the Administration was open to any and all suggestions.  There were quite a few.  Only small changes resulted.  It was quite simple, really.  It costs "X" number of dollars to run GL.  When the bucks aren't there, GL has a real problem in serving the lodges and something has to give. 

The resolution proposed that the "per capita tax" be increased based upon a simple formula.  The total amount needed to balance the budget divided by the number of dues paying members in the State.  It passed with the necessary 5/6th majority present and voting.  In this case it amounted to a $4.26 increase in per capita.  Therefore next year the per capita tax will go from $16 to $20.26.  The Budget then balances.

Several lodges have increased their annual dues this year also, with several going to $100/yr plus the per capita tax from GL.  

My lodge in Payson has been charging $38/yr plus GL per capita for the last 10 years.  Our Utility costs alone have more that doubled in that time.  Our total membership has hovered or averaged 95 members every year for the past 10 years.  We were once at 115 Twenty years ago.  Although we have been raising an average of 3 per year to MM,  the GATU keeps calling the older ones home.  It seems that every time we take 2 steps forward we slide backwards 3 steps.  

The Officers and Trustees have discussed raising the Lodge dues but due to the current financial/employement problems in Arizona and the fact that many of our members have lost their normal sources of retirement income, we decided not to and wait for the economy/job situation to improve.

To make up for the income gap, we instead elected to do more fund raisers.  Fortunately we have the resources and manpower to do that.  We average $1,000 per fund raiser.  Now we are planning to do 4 instead of 2 per year.

This will fill the gap in our budget nicely and also allow us to contribute more to various charities and service projects such as Clothe A Child, Bikes For Books and Child Identification Program (CHIP).  

By paying close attention to cost and income just like any business, a lodge can survive tough times without increasing dues.  

Richard Skoglund, PM
Secretary
Payson No. 70
Payson, AZ.


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## Blake Bowden (Feb 21, 2010)

Wingnut said:


> GL needs to raise their returns amount so they dont have to ask the lodges to donate money.
> 
> Lodges need to raise their dues to cover returns, operating expense and have a little nest egg building.
> 
> It amazes me the number of lodges I see that are operating in the red and wonder why the craft is dying!!!



+1


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## Timothy Fleischer (Oct 6, 2011)

THanks for this info Brother!
Masonry is too cheap. Way too cheap.


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## Wingnut (Oct 8, 2011)

Masonry the way it SHOULD be is way to cheap... some would argue its too damn high to read minutes, discuss bills eat some bologna and go home till next month when we wash rinse and repeat


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## Raymond Walters (Oct 19, 2011)

Br. Wingnut, 

you have raised a valid question/concern/point. Way back when, in the old days, Freemasons rarely belonged to multiple bodies the way we do today. My grandfather indicated that lodge dues, when based on the economy as it was, were at a higher ratio compared to personal income.

I have long wondered what is the purpose of needing to belong to multiple organizations when it is tough to devote yourself properly active to one, maybe two. Add to that one's family duties, work responsibilities and anything else, and there is a shortage of time at the end of that 24 inch gauge.

I have held membership on both sides of the masonic coin. Here is my breakdown;

On the PHA side, yearly dues ranged from $50 too $100. PHA members are only permitted membership in 1 subordinate lodge.

On the mainstream side, yealy dues ranged from a low $35 to an exorbitant $450. Mainstream GL's typically permit dual or plural memberships. At one point while a mainstream mason, I belonged to seven subordinate lodges (5 in the USA, 2 in Barbados) for a whopping $1200 per year (just for subordinate lodges).

Now, a strange anomaly I noticed was that the lodges with the higher dues structure had better attendance than lodges with a lower scale of fees. I simply took it that if you are committed enough to pay a higher rate of dues, you are often more committed to your lodge (I know I was). 

Lodges were not intended to be so large(like they are today) that they grow like weeds squeezing out the purpose of lodge, fraternal relationships! I have wondered what it would be like if lodges would split more often, and new lodges formed with smaller memberships. It would seem that more members may be inclined to participate because there would actually be something for them to do, and they would feel part of the organization.

I have found this thread interesting and appreciate the time you put into pointing out the average dues structure.


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