# Freemasonry and Moors



## Michael Neumann (May 7, 2013)

Has anyone read this? Found it today while in a debate.

http://moorishacademy.org/articles/the_masons_and_the_moors.html 

*"The origins 
of Freemasonry â€“ as would be expected of such a â€œvenerable secret societyâ€ â€“ are 
shrouded in myth, legend and almost impenetrable obscurity. Since at least the 
late 18th century Masonic writers have sought to establish a link between the 
Knights Templar and the Freemasons. Freemasonic lore and symbols have been 
traced to ancient Egypt and Phoenicia. Yet, despite all the books and articles 
exploring Freemasonry published over the last hundred years, there is one area 
that has not received attention. It concerns Freemasonryâ€™s debt to Islamic 
mysticism and a shadowy tradition connecting the Masons with the Moors of North 
Africa. "*


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## jvarnell (May 7, 2013)

Michael Neumann said:


> Has anyone read this? Found it today while in a debate.
> 
> http://moorishacademy.org/articles/the_masons_and_the_moors.html
> 
> ...



I see that article as someone tying Masonry to just one thing. I see Masonry links to many paths of that time period that came from one source earlier in history.  If you read anything written by someone with an Arab background you will see every time period starts in the time of Mohammad.  That is why they built on the dome of the rock where they did and many other mosk's on other religious historical sites through time.  If say something enough the people will think it true.  Practice makes permanent not perfect.


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## Michael Neumann (May 7, 2013)

I am looking to poke holes in the theory. The statement was also made that the Moors continued a tradition of Baal.


Here is their supporting evidence - Jewish Vitual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0003_0_01786.html which lines you up for the folloing link -  

"BAAL FIRE--ST. JOHN'S EVE.
Readers of the Old Testament are well acquainted with the condemnation passed 
upon the worship of Baal, but some of them may be surprised to know that there 
is a custom in Northumberland of lighting Baal fires on St. John's Eve, which is 
a relic of ancient Baal worship. .... On the evening of 
the 4th July a cart is borrowed and loaded with branches of faggots, some of the 
men get into the shafts... The village turns out en masse to see the bonfire 
built. The children join hands and dance round the stack of wood and branches 
until they are tired; youths and maidens also dance a little distance away."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/osc/osc17.htm

With additional support because Morocco was the first country to recognize the U.S. -    "This recognition was granted in 1777, making Morocco the first country to  recognize the United States of America. Negotiations on a formal treaty to  establish ties between the two countries began in 1783. The Moroccan-American  Treaty of Friendship was signed in 1786. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, both  future U.S. Presidents were the signatories for the United States.Renegotiated in 1836, the treaty is still in force, constituting the  longest unbroken treaty in U.S. history. As testament to the special nature of  the U.S.-Moroccan relationship, Tangier is home to the oldest U.S. diplomatic  property in the world, and the only building on foreign soil that is listed in  the U.S. National Register of Historic  Places, the American Legation in Tangier (now a museum)." http://www.embassyofmorocco.us/USMoroccorelationship.htm


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## Michael Neumann (May 7, 2013)

jvarnell said:


> If say something enough the people will think it true.  Practice makes permanent not perfect.


 VERY VERY true


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## dfreybur (May 7, 2013)

Michael Neumann said:


> Has anyone read this? Found it today while in a debate.
> 
> http://moorishacademy.org/articles/the_masons_and_the_moors.html



The document has some good and bad points.  Its claim that Thomas Jefferson was a Mason does not help.  Lots of folks would love evidence that he was a Mason but no such evidence ever appears.  Its description of Washington and Franklin as "high level Masons" whatever that means does not help either.

If you study almost any form of traditional mysticism and then look for it in Masonry you'll find it.  This paper claims Islamic mysticism appears in Masonic ritual and symbolism.  If you know what to look for I figure it is there.  The paper complains that Masonry isn't Islamic mysticism intact.  Yep, that's true.  it's deliberate as far as I can tell.

Masonic ritual and symbolism is an amalgam of every type of mysticism the folks of the 1700s could find.  They attempted to craft a universal order by including bits from everywhere they could find.  Whether it worked or not is matter for the individual brother to decide.  That folks who focus on any one form of mysticism complain that Masonry is not their form intact is to be expected.


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## dfreybur (May 7, 2013)

Michael Neumann said:


> I am looking to poke holes in the theory. The statement was also made that the Moors continued a tradition of Baal.
> 
> 
> Here is their supporting evidence - Jewish Vitual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0003_0_01786.html which lines you up for the folloing link -
> ...



This confuses Baal fire with bale fire.  Bale fire is a word that comes to English from Sanskrit through Old Norse and it means a funeral pyre.  Baal fire is a word that comes to English from Hebrew and it means any of the pantheon followed by the Hebrews before they converted after Abraham and Moses.

Seasonal cycles matter greatly because they drive the crop planting and harvesting cycle and the herd breeding and slaughter cycle.  In the north the seasons are more pronounced so they matter more. The sacred-texts site mentions the tradition has a Druidic origin from before the conversion in Europe.  Near the summer and winder solstices fires were made to celebrate the cycle of the Sun's daily track north and south every year.  The fires represented the Sun so they are funeral fires.  If you've ever been to a Swedish-American MidSommar Fest or a Norwegian-American MidSommar bonfire you would see the practice was wider than just the Celtic pre-conversion Druids.  It was also practiced across the Rhine in regions the Romans called the Germanics (a term that includes both mainland and Scandanavia branches as well as the now-extinct Goths).

Bale fires in European tradition are not evidence that Muslim Moors still followed some pre-conversion Hebrew traditions.  They are evidence that European Christians still followed some pre-conversion traditions.  As the conversion progressed many traditions were absorbed.


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## Michael Neumann (May 7, 2013)

Thank you. The guys here randomly find videos with "hidden" knowledge. Much like another of our brethren stated, these movies have a lot of flash, yet little bang. They give you tidbits of information, just enough to provide surface support. In order to preserve any bit of belief they have generated in the viewer they generally state that evidence of whatever they stated has been covered up by a worldwide conspiracy. How can you argue that? Of course you will not find support, it has been covered up. :52:


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## widows son (May 8, 2013)

"This confuses Baal fire with bale fire. Bale fire is a word that comes to English from Sanskrit through Old Norse and it means a funeral pyre. Baal fire is a word that comes to English from Hebrew and it means any of the pantheon followed by the Hebrews before they converted after Abraham and Moses.

Seasonal cycles matter greatly because they drive the crop planting and harvesting cycle and the herd breeding and slaughter cycle. In the north the seasons are more pronounced so they matter more. The sacred-texts site mentions the tradition has a Druidic origin from before the conversion in Europe. Near the summer and winder solstices fires were made to celebrate the cycle of the Sun's daily track north and south every year. The fires represented the Sun so they are funeral fires. If you've ever been to a Swedish-American MidSommar Fest or a Norwegian-American MidSommar bonfire you would see the practice was wider than just the Celtic pre-conversion Druids. It was also practiced across the Rhine in regions the Romans called the Germanics (a term that includes both mainland and Scandanavia branches as well as the now-extinct Goths).

Bale fires in European tradition are not evidence that Muslim Moors still followed some pre-conversion Hebrew traditions. They are evidence that European Christians still followed some pre-conversion traditions. As the conversion progressed many traditions were absorbed."

- I like this. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Baal the Canaanite word for the supreme being?


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## jvarnell (May 8, 2013)

widows son said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Baal the Canaanite word for the supreme being?



Is this a translation problem, is this a problem with writing things verses mouth to ear.  When is it miss-interpreted it is bad.


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## dfreybur (May 8, 2013)

widows son said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Baal the Canaanite word for the supreme being?



On www.dictionary.com it lists "lord".  Not sure if that counts as a yes or no as an answer.


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## BryanMaloney (May 9, 2013)

Michael Neumann said:


> "BAAL FIRE--ST. JOHN'S EVE.
> Readers of the Old Testament are well acquainted with the condemnation passed
> upon the worship of Baal, but some of them may be surprised to know that there
> is a custom in Northumberland of lighting Baal fires on St. John's Eve,



The lighting of bonfires on a specific night is practiced in a very large number of cultures. Who is so daft as to suggest that this means EVERYBODY AROUND THE WORLD worshiped some obscure pagan Semitic deity? That's as silly as the tired old lie that the entire holiday of "Easter" is based on Ishtar merely because there is a coincidental resemblance between the two names. I would not trust any book published in 1910 that makes such claims, without modern scholarship to confirm it--and by "scholarship", I mean the reputable kind, not conspiracy stuff or what pours out of the mumbo-jumbo crowd. That era was horribly infected with a great deal of blind, unsubstantiable speculation based on the flimsiest excuse for "evidence". What OTHER evidence for this alleged "Ba'al fire" connection to St. John's Eve is there? This horrible excuse for a "book" is so badly "researched" that it thinks that Beltaine has something to do with Ba'al. That's a piece of utter twaddle that any linguist can easily dismiss. Like I said, it's as pig-ignorant as claiming "Easter = Ishtar".

Beltaine is from two Indo-European roots; *bhel- (pale, bright) and *tepn- (warm, warmth--controversial attribution, though). An edition of the Oxford English dictionary states: "The rubbish about Baal, Bel, Belus, imported into the word from the Old Testament and classical antiquity is outside the scope of scientific etymology."

Bonfires are universal. Ba'al's followers allegedly lit bonfires. Does that mean that Ba'al worship is universal? No. Ba'al's followers wore clothes. All cultures have some equivalent to clothing. Therefore, all cultures, because they use something like clothing, worship Ba'al? I think not.

Some forms of "scholarship" are akin to riding a motorcycle with your mouth open--one ends up swallowing any old thing that happens to randomly fly in.


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## BryanMaloney (May 9, 2013)

widows son said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Baal the Canaanite word for the supreme being?



Not quite--it's the word for "lord", but not as people have restricted the word in the modern day. It's "lord" in the older sense, as "Lord of Somesuchtown". Thus, the "Ba'al" of the Old Testament was not a universal god but was merely the "Lord of" whatever local non-Hebrew town that the Hebrews were having trouble with, or maybe the local pagan king's favorite god. It isn't even a name. Lots of pagan Semitic gods were also called "Ba'al".


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## dfreybur (May 9, 2013)

BryanMaloney said:


> The lighting of bonfires on a specific night is practiced in a very large number of cultures. Who is so daft as to suggest that this means EVERYBODY AROUND THE WORLD worshiped some obscure pagan Semitic deity?



The pre-conversion Romans mapped the deities followed in conquered lands to their own.  They may well have equated Ba'al with Vulcan and Cisnerous with Vulcan and link them in two steps.  If you chose to call those ancient Romans daft I'm with you on that conclusion.  I'll go so far as to insert Monty Python and the Life of Brian reference here.  Bloody Romans ...



> That's as silly as the tired old lie that the entire holiday of "Easter" is based on Ishtar merely because there is a coincidental resemblance between the two names.



The word Easter comes from the Anglo-Saxon deity Ostara.  Does it make sense to say modern Americans who celebrate Easter do so in honor of Ostara?  The vast majority of the population hasn't even looked up the origin of the word and learned a completely different meaning.


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## BryanMaloney (May 9, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> The pre-conversion Romans mapped the deities followed in conquered lands to their own.  They may well have equated Ba'al with Vulcan and Cisnerous with Vulcan and link them in two steps.


Of course, the Romans didn't make that particular connection. Ba'al was interpreted as Saturn by the Romans, while Cernunnos was identified with Mercury.





> The word Easter comes from the Anglo-Saxon deity Ostara.  Does it make sense to say modern Americans who celebrate Easter do so in honor of Ostara?  The vast majority of the population hasn't even looked up the origin of the word and learned a completely different meaning.


Bingo! Even moreso, Easter comes from "Eostermonat", which means "Ostara's month", but even the Venerable Bede, who is the source for the attribution, never claimed that the locals actually worshipped Ostara at the time the name was transferred. It's like saying that Americans all worship Frigga/Freya because one of our major social days is "Black Friday", and Friday is named for one or both of those Scandinavian goddesses.


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## widows son (May 10, 2013)

"Not quite--it's the word for "lord", but not as people have restricted the word in the modern day. It's "lord" in the older sense, as "Lord of Somesuchtown". Thus, the "Ba'al" of the Old Testament was not a universal god but was merely the "Lord of" whatever local non-Hebrew town that the Hebrews were having trouble with, or maybe the local pagan king's favorite god. It isn't even a name. Lots of pagan Semitic gods were also called "Ba'al"."

- Gotcha. 
In your last sentence you mentioned Baal as the name of numerous pagan Semitic deities, or a pagan Semitic kings favorite god, but isn't that true with the rulers themselves? I've read they would attach Baal to the end of their name to signify their status as a lord.


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## widows son (May 10, 2013)

Bro. Byron Upton invited me to his Facebook debate group about Masonic regularity, and there are a lot of guys on there, mostly irregular or clandestine, who believe in mystic roots that masonry has to the moors. Same with Egypt as the home of Africans and the Royal DNA (this is a common statement made)


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## Bro Asad (Mar 8, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Idries Shah demonstrates that many Sufi practices can be found in Masonry - but not all Sufis are Moors.


I don't think any Sufi's are Moors. I've been to a meeting of a chartered Moorish Science Temple of America, they practice a 'altered' version of Islam claiming Noble Drew Ali to be the last prophet whereas Sufism, to my understanding base their beliefs on the more widely accepted form of Islam, partaking in the spiritual or mystical aspect of the religion. The gentlemen at the meeting I went to though.. Very knowledgeable on the history of the world, and the many differing views of it


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## jwhoff (Mar 8, 2015)

Were there enough interest and knowledge, I would like to see a thread opened on Sufi Islam. 

This thread is too interesting.  Many angles to discuss and probe.  Still more to identify.  Please keep it up.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 1, 2015)

dfreybur said:


> The document has some good and bad points. Its claim that Thomas Jefferson was a Mason does not help. Lots of folks would love evidence that he was a Mason but no such evidence ever appears. Its description of Washington and Franklin as "high level Masons" whatever that means does not help either.


I may be wrong but whenever I see statements like this in an article then, to me, all claims it makes are suspect.


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## hanzosbm (Mar 29, 2016)

I recently came across some theories about a Moorish connection by way of the Templars.  It was an interesting connection of dots with some pretty big leaps in between.  I'll admit, however, to it pointing out a few things that are not easily explained away. 

The basics are that Hugues de Payens' coat of arms had 3 Moorish heads on it and the theory is that he was taught by Moorish Sufis and then formed the Templars and continued the mystical teachings which eventually found its way to Freemasonry. 

I'm not saying I believe it, but there are some theories out there.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 29, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> I recently came across some theories about a Moorish connection by way of the Templars.  It was an interesting connection of dots with some pretty big leaps in between.  I'll admit, however, to it pointing out a few things that are not easily explained away.
> 
> The basics are that Hugues de Payens' coat of arms had 3 Moorish heads on it and the theory is that he was taught by Moorish Sufis and then formed the Templars and continued the mystical teachings which eventually found its way to Freemasonry.
> 
> I'm not saying I believe it, but there are some theories out there.


Interesting!


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## hanzosbm (Mar 29, 2016)

I'm not sure where this link will take you within the document, but chapter 7 discusses the Sufi/Moor/Templar/Cathar/etc link.

https://books.google.com/books?id=4...TAD#v=onepage&q=hugues de payens sufi&f=false

I haven't fully fact checked the statements, but there's some interesting stuff in there.


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## MarkR (Mar 30, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> The basics are that Hugues de Payens' coat of arms had 3 Moorish heads on it and the theory is that he was taught by Moorish Sufis and then formed the Templars and continued the mystical teachings which eventually found its way to Freemasonry.


I just did a quick search on this, and what I found said that de Payens did not have a coat of arms, because heraldry didn't exist yet.


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## hanzosbm (Mar 30, 2016)

MarkR said:


> I just did a quick search on this, and what I found said that de Payens did not have a coat of arms, because heraldry didn't exist yet.


Fantastic!  Like I said, I didn't do much digging, but I really appreciate that.  His marriage to Catherine de Saint Claire also seems to be completely fabricated and I can't find any contemporary genealogy records indicating his father or grandfather (the so called Moor Gardille).  There are lots of sites out there claiming it, but they all seem to reference books written in the last century.  As for the book I linked earlier, upon further reading, it is so biased that I have a hard time believing anything in it.  Once I got to the passage claiming that all European nobility can trace it's ancestry to Mohammad, I quit reading.


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## MasonicAdept (Sep 2, 2016)

widows son said:


> "Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Baal the Canaanite word for the supreme being?



Yes, it is, but you have to understand Moorish American thought and philosophy to understand why they would connect to the Canaanite terminology for the Supreme Being.
Moorish-Americans believe that they are the descendants of Ancient Canaanites.
In fact, the first person to come and bring the Moorish philosophy and doctrine to the African American community was Timothy Drew aka Noble Drew Ali, in 1913 the first Temple was established in New Jersey, and was called the Canaanite Temple. In 1925, it was called the Moorish Holy Temple of Science, and reincorporated in 1928 as a religious body called the Moorish Science Temple of America, in Chicago, Illinois.

I actually was a member of the MST of A under Bro. R. Jones-Bey for some years. I was an Adept and Grand Governor in North Carolina. I left several years ago.






​


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## Dontrell Stroman (Sep 2, 2016)

Are you still a follower of the Moorish religion ?


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## Glen Cook (Sep 2, 2016)

MarkR said:


> I just did a quick search on this, and what I found said that de Payens did not have a coat of arms, because heraldry didn't exist yet.


Well, I can't say that de Payens had a coat of arms, but in the 12th C heraldic items such as seals were in use and c. 1155, the tomb of Geoffery de Plaganet had armorial bearings. See Fox-Davies, _A Complete Guide to Heraldry_, p. 62. Additionally, the surcoat from whence the term coat of arms may derive was used in the period of the crusades. We see the use of heraldry in the Bayeaux Tapestry reflecting the 1066 events, which only a few of us remember. The first roll of arms was 1298. Lionheart used arms in 1198, etc

The more important question for this purpose, though, is the inheritance of arms. Scopes v Grosvenor was at least one of the earliest trials in inheritance, but that was not until 1389, with the facts arising in the 1385 invasion of Scotland, with Grosvenor -claiming- his ancestor brought the arms in the 1066 invasion.

So, it is plausible that de Payans bore arms, but not likely they were inherited and not to my knowledge proveable in a court of heraldry (with which I have some experience).

(Guess who is a Fellow of the Society of Scottish Armigers and can and will bang on about this forever).


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## MasonicAdept (Sep 2, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Are you still a follower of the Moorish religion ?



No, as stated in and earlier comment, I left several years ago.

A couple things to point out though:

1. The Moorish Science Temple of America is not the RELIGION, it is the religious organization that claims to restore the nationality of African Americans.

2. The religion practiced by Moorish Americans is Islam.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Sep 2, 2016)

Is this the same organization that has "pro black" roots and Pan African Ideology ? The reason I ask, I ran into a gentleman that claimed to be a moor. He continued to tell me that that I was in a organization that hated blacks. And that I did not need to be a freemason to learn the secrets of Freemasonry, as the moors have all the knowledge we posse.


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## MasonicAdept (Sep 2, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Is this the same organization that has "pro black" roots and Pan African Ideology ? The reason I ask, I ran into a gentleman that claimed to be a moor. He continued to tell me that that I was in a organization that hated blacks. And that I did not need to be a freemason to learn the secrets of Freemasonry, as the moors have all the knowledge we posse.



LOL...While the MST of A is definitely an organization that is directed to the African American community, they do not teach hate for another race, or pro-black ideology. They actually advocate citizenship in the American Republic. An American Flag stands by the Moroccan Flag in every Temple under the Moorish Divine and National Movement. They are not a "back to Africa" group...They are a "give us our portion of America" organization...

You have to understand that after the death of Noble Drew Ali in 1929, the MSTA split into 3 factions, and that number continued to fracture until you have a multiplicity of Moorish groups, who hold their own interpretation of the doctrine taught by Noble Drew Ali.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Sep 3, 2016)

Interesting, to me the Pan African part would fall under "Give us our portion "


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## MasonicAdept (Sep 3, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Interesting, to me the Pan African part would fall under "Give us our portion "



It is definitely what the Moorish Divine and National Movement falls under...


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