# Clandestine Freemasons



## Blake Bowden

Clandestine Freemasons


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## JTM

My opinion, as I've put in other threads is that not having them could be an opportunity to help someone out if they want.  Peacible citizens in general have always been welcome here.

Also, as a reminder, no communication here should be considered "Masonic" or "squared."


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## Brent Heilman

I agree with JTM. It is a good place to help them out. Heck, many may not even know that they are clandestine and if we can set them on a proper path then all the better. We just have to be careful of the ones like the clandestine guy.


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## JTM

Also, they may be fine with being clandestine and have a lot of good stuff to say in regards to masonry.


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## Bill Lins

If they hold themselves out to be Master Masons, I'd like them to post their Lodges and locations so that we'll know their obedience, but otherwise I have no objection.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

No objections here!


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## Benton

I don't think clandestine Masons should be banned. I feel that anyone should be allowed to participate in the boards, regular, clandestine, or non-mason, so long as they hold to the community's standards and don't violate the TOS.


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## Frater Cliff Porter

It doesn't seem to cause problems, but if the idea is a discussion of Masonry then a Masons only forum can be nice.  

Of course at TSS we only allow regular Masons and the time I spend vetting each member is a huge pain in the butt.


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## dhouseholder

...besides, insight can be gleaned a piece at a time from many places and from many different (sometimes clandestine) people. (A certain heroine of the Bible comes to mind)


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## Bro_Vick

I voted no, but realize that I have seen conversations quickly dissolve when regularity is brought up, and realize it can be used as a slight during a disagreement.  I am member of international Masonic groups that I will go months ignoring when issues around French regularity is brought up.

Do I have a problem?  No, just means potentially more work for the moderators, suckers. 

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## Michael Hatley

Fine as long as they don't propogandize/recruit, which seems to be a penchant for clandestine folks. 

I do think private type forums for VIP types being vetted might be good.  A pain, but a much smaller pool of folks.

Something to consider also is there might come a time when MoT might, might be in a position to weigh in on something important as an organization at a GL meeting or the like.  I don't know.  I understand Bro Bowden doesn't seem intent upon making the forum official or politicizing, etc, but the reason I mention it is that by making a policy of rejecting clandestine masons presence here it leaves the door open for things like that.  If the greybeards get wind that clandestines are allowed here, they will paint MoT itself as clandestine to undermine anything MoT as a group might have to say.  

Its a genie that can't be put back into the lamp is why I mention it.  The truth is that while I agree with the sentiment of the brothers who have posted already on the issue, I think were I running the place I'd maintain a zero tolerance policy, keep our collective powder dry so that one day down the road if the stars aligned we might together make a bigger difference than this compromise allows.


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## BryanMaloney

If the Gerontoi Nikolaoi (Old Nicks) have it in their head, they will say whatever they want to undermine what MoT as a group might have to say. That's just what people in power do. If they wanted, they could undermine MoT on the grounds that it isn't "Tyled"--that it allows profanes to even read it. They could complain that it allows non-Texans to read it without going through proper Grand Secretary channels for a "virtual visitation" between Grand Lodges. I'm sure we could make up more excuses.


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## BrotherCoffeen

Add Content


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## dizlwizl

Having gone through a  clandestine lodge, being apart of this forum has helped me find out that I was clandestine lodge and how to go about fixing the problem. Alot of people who are in these lodges don't know they are clandestine, like I did, and some want to make the change then to become regular or "real"  in my terms. Now I do agree that a lot of them are proud to be irregular, only due to the fact that they were hazed badly during their process that they don't want to have to repeat it again (so they say)  to be "real". Some just flat out think that we are wrong and that we should be wrong with them. Where I was duped at,  they seemed to be legit, but the more questions I asked, the more they didn't like me. For example, I asked why don't they confer the York rite degrees and they would say "there isn't a York rite" they only went to master mason then 32nd and shrine and there was only 1 33rd and he has been a "GM" for over 10 years. The "lodge"  in question in Dallas 
And was called Jeremiah Grand Lodge 4222 s Lancaster. (there has been a post about this lodge on this forum from another member on the forum who went through what I went through) 

To sum it up.  This forum helped me fix my walk in masonry and find my place among PHA. And if I never would have gotten the help from the awesome brothers on this forum, I still would be a piggy bank for them with no knowledge. 

Freemason Connect Mobile


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## dfreybur

dizlwizl said:


> Having gone through a  clandestine lodge, being apart of this forum has helped me find out that I was clandestine lodge and how to go about fixing the problem. Alot of people who are in these lodges don't know they are clandestine, like I did, and some want to make the change then to become regular or "real"  in my terms.



Best reason ever to welcome folks who are clandestine!

This board also welcomes men who want to become brothers.  We help point them to regular and recognized lodges.


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## crono782

This forum is open to non masons as well. Why would anyone think it's a good idea to ban masons here who are (some perhaps unknowingly) members of clanestine lodges? Nobody (except a couple uninformed ones, that I've seen) mistakes this forum for Masonic tyled discussion. This is a public internet forum.


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## bupton52

dizlwizl said:


> Having gone through a  clandestine lodge, being apart of this forum has helped me find out that I was clandestine lodge and how to go about fixing the problem. Alot of people who are in these lodges don't know they are clandestine, like I did, and some want to make the change then to become regular or "real"  in my terms. Now I do agree that a lot of them are proud to be irregular, only due to the fact that they were hazed badly during their process that they don't want to have to repeat it again (so they say)  to be "real". Some just flat out think that we are wrong and that we should be wrong with them. Where I was duped at,  they seemed to be legit, but the more questions I asked, the more they didn't like me. For example, I asked why don't they confer the York rite degrees and they would say "there isn't a York rite" they only went to master mason then 32nd and shrine and there was only 1 33rd and he has been a "GM" for over 10 years. The "lodge"  in question in Dallas
> And was called Jeremiah Grand Lodge 4222 s Lancaster. (there has been a post about this lodge on this forum from another member on the forum who went through what I went through)
> 
> To sum it up.  This forum helped me fix my walk in masonry and find my place among PHA. And if I never would have gotten the help from the awesome brothers on this forum, I still would be a piggy bank for them with no knowledge.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



I talked to a member of Jeremiah GL on the phone when I visited Arlington earlier this year. I had to end up just saying goodbye to him. It was a pointless conversation.


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## bupton52

dfreybur said:


> Best reason ever to welcome folks who are clandestine!
> 
> This board also welcomes men who want to become brothers.  We help point them to regular and recognized lodges.



If you knew the type of information that their members are being told........... They need all of the help they can get to be reprogrammed. At times it is so ridiculous. I've heard that the Boston Tea Party was a cover-up for someone trying to steal the charter that Prince Hall had from England.


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## dizlwizl

Sad to say that's what I was told also.  I feel better knowing that someone has ran into them and knows how bad it is.  They are far beyond ignorance. They have built a house in the north and love it there and want us to move in with them. By any chance, brother, was the man's name Jermaine Williams? I think I might know who you are talking about directly. 

Freemason Connect Mobile


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## bupton52

dizlwizl said:


> Sad to say that's what I was told also.  I feel better knowing that someone has ran into them and knows how bad it is.  They are far beyond ignorance. They have built a house in the north and love it there and want us to move in with them. By any chance, brother, was the man's name Jermaine Williams? I think I might know who you are talking about directly.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



I don't remember. It was a guy that had been talking crazy on facebook and wanted me to call him, so I did. After our conversation, he blocked me on facebook so......... No worries. He told me he knew that they were legit because he had seen the seal. I was like, what seal? He said it was the State seal of Texas on the GL charter. I asked him since when did GLs have charters? That seemed to piss him off. He didn't appreciate my calmness and ended up hanging up.


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## dizlwizl

I was desperate back then to find a home with masonry that I trusted too easily, but when I was being challenged over in Tyler, TX where I live, I had no response. They didn't care if I made it to meetings or not most of the time,  but when it came to money, I was first to know that I owed some. And I always wondered where the money went. And why I never got anything from them other than a Duncan my apron and a card. Then after talking with the real brothers I associate myself with, they made it clear and all I asked then was "how do I make this right". When I join ANYTHING I want to do it right. Now I am on my way. I am working on being healed soon, just waiting for my money to get better since my first child will be born soon. But it will happen next month. I have had the roughest time so far and I am excited to actually be able to start to enjoy being a mason. There is much to learn and being apart of this forum has helped me so much. I can't thank everyone enough 

Freemason Connect Mobile


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## dizlwizl

Yup that's him.  I know exactly who you were talking to. They all got mad when I left including him.  He tried to tell me that I used him to gain information from them and that I am now clandestine to his lodge. And wondered when I would be coming to Dallas  again and what lodge I am apart of now. It's too much for trying to do the right thing. 

Freemason Connect Mobile


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## Bill Lins

bupton52 said:


> I asked him since when did GLs have charters?



Bro. Byron,

The GLoT, like any other legitimate corporate entity, is duly chartered by the state of Texas. It was originally chartered by the Republic of Texas in 1845, then by the state of Texas in 1846, again in 1879, and again in 1900- the charter by which we currently operate. The text of all four charters is published in the front of our law book.


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## Bill Lins

dizlwizl said:


> Now I do agree that a lot of them are proud to be irregular, only due to the fact that they were hazed badly during their process that they don't want to have to repeat it again (so they say)  to be "real".



I have heard tales of hazing being conducted by some clandestine Lodges. Does hazing occur in PHA Lodges?


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## dizlwizl

From what I understand it doesn't. I have a few of my good friends who were raised a few months ago PHA and they said there wasn't any hazing. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Freemasonry mobile app


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## dew_time

I am what you guys may call a candidate or a mason in waiting. My petition is out doing whatever petitions do after they are filled out and signed by 2 brothers. I had a lot of questions and a lot on my mind. Things like how long do I have to wait, what's it like being a brother of a lodge, what's next. I found this app on my phone and of course I had to install it. I found the answers to most of my questions, I've seen how you guys connect and I've seen true brotherhood even when the topics were a little touchy. Though I still have no idea what goes on at the lodge or what to expect as my journey begin. My point.. if you kick clandies out you will have to kick non masons out and if you did that guys like me would have no one to turn too beside the crap that random websites, history channel and youtube has to offer. I for one don't trust information unless it comes from the source.

Thank you for being here!!
Freemason Connect Mobile


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## Bill Lins

Lawton1981 said:


> For what I been told from clandestine brothers is that they choose to be international because they have the freedom to move where they want in masonry from 32 Scottish to a knights Templar in the York without joining diff appending bodies.



How does that work?


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## WestTXFreemason

I waited 2 months for my final interview! After being accepted, it was all uphill! The FCs and MMs are awesome and they treat you like family. Best group I've ever been apart of!

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## bupton52

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Bro. Byron,
> 
> The GLoT, like any other legitimate corporate entity, is duly chartered by the state of Texas. It was originally chartered by the Republic of Texas in 1845, then by the state of Texas in 1846, again in 1879, and again in 1900- the charter by which we currently operate. The text of all four charters is published in the front of our law book.



I apologize, I wasnt very clear in my post. A charter to operate as a legitimate corporate entity registered with the State is understandable. When they refer to a charter it is comparable to a subordibate lodge charter. Basically, they are acknowledging that the State has authorized them to operate masonically. No lineage to the mother GLs required. Just file paperwork with the state and poof!  

Freemason Connect Mobile


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## dfreybur

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> I have heard tales of hazing being conducted by some clandestine Lodges. Does hazing occur in PHA Lodges?



No.  The PHA degrees I have attended in a few states are very much like degrees in any other regular and recognized jurisdictions.  Details vary as always from jurisdiction to jurisdiction but there is no hazing.


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## bupton52

Hazing will get you in big trouble. BIG trouble!


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## dfreybur

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> The GLoT, like any other legitimate corporate entity, is duly chartered by the state of Texas. It was originally chartered by the Republic of Texas in 1845, then by the state of Texas in 1846, again in 1879, and again in 1900- the charter by which we currently operate. The text of all four charters is published in the front of our law book.



The same is true in my jurisdictions as well.  But what matters is the regular practice and lineage of the lodges that formed the GL and the declarations of recognition granted by other GLs in response to when it was formed.  The forming lodges turn in their charters to their parent GLs and new charters are written from the new GL they just formed.  Thus no regular GL has a Masonic charter as such.  Even the original charter for African 459 is a lodge charter not a GL charter.

I've seen GLs formed in Alaska and Hawaii once the number of lodges there reached critical mass and they decided to get together and form their own GL.  Once they formed their own GL they sent out requests for recognition to many older GLs.  The requests were granted provisionally by various sitting GMs then ratified at various annual GL communications.


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## dfreybur

dew_time said:


> I am what you guys may call a candidate or a mason in waiting. My petition is out doing whatever petitions do after they are filled out and signed by 2 brothers. I had a lot of questions and a lot on my mind. Things like how long do I have to wait



Lodges mostly have 1-2 meetings per month where petitions can be handled.  Say you submit your petition the day after the monthly meeting.  One month until it is read and an investigating committee assigned.  Say there's trouble meeting at your home so it takes an extra month.  That's a worst case of 3 months between petition and ballot, best case of 1 month.  Then anywhere from a week to a couple of months before your degree is scheduled.

You should be welcomed and treated with respect but plenty of patience will be needed.


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## dew_time

dfreybur said:


> You should be welcomed and treated with respect but plenty of patience will be needed.



I'm a 38... I have wanted to be a brother since I was 12 and was ushered out of my grandfathers funeral so the masons could do their ceremony for him in private. I never petitioned before this because I wasn't ready. Time is all I have until my time is up 
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## AnthonyPomilia357

dizlwizl said:


> To sum it up.  This forum helped me fix my walk in masonry and find my place among PHA. And if I never would have gotten the help from the awesome brothers on this forum, I still would be a piggy bank for them with no knowledge.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile


Very glad that you found the true light, brother! I was almost tricked into a clandestine lodge. There were biweekly dues of $35, the man claimed that it was a secret society, told me that I can drink lots of beer underage with them, claimed that they have "the 8 hidden books of The Holy Bible"....I could go on and on. So anyways, it sounded fishy so I talked to a Kentucky mason about what he had said. That Kentucky brother saved me from entering darkness. Brother Darrell Waddell, you're a savior!


MM from Metamora/Hadley Lodge No. 210 of the GL of MI


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## dfreybur

dew_time said:


> ... and was ushered out of my grandfathers funeral so the masons could do their ceremony for him in private.



I find that very bizarre.  Our funeral ceremony is intended to be public to my knowledge.  Every masonic funeral I have attended has been open.  Maybe the family asked for the ceremony to be conducted privately.  My wife knows mine should be open.

Active Masons tend to go to plenty of funerals -

In time you will have been to at least one with so many in attendance they run out of aprons and gloves and the brethren have to assemble in several rows.  A funeral for a brother it seemed like everyone in the state knew him and he loved us all like his own children.  Everyone telling stories of how the brother touched our lives making the event a short of going away party and living thank you card for his activities in life.

In time you will have been to at least one where there are only 5 in attendance.  The 3 brothers from lodge who are the minimum needed for the ceremony.  The dead brother who's from out of town who you never met before.  His widow staring amazed that a group of strangers would be there to do this to say goodbye to a brother they'd never met in person.  A funeral for a brother who was a stranger because there's no secret method to how we treat each other as kin we Just Do It.  There are secrets that can be published in books but we've still promised to not discuss them with non-members.  There are also secrets we could shout from the rooftops and they remain secret because they are about what we do.  Those Masonic funerals that are only for the widow delve deeply into that second type.  It's one of the things our mystic tie is about.



> Time is all I have until my time is up



And most of us are still brothers the day we die.  Exactly.


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## dew_time

dfreybur said:


> I find that very bizarre.  Our funeral ceremony is intended to be public to my knowledge.  Every masonic funeral I have attended has been open.  Maybe the family asked for the ceremony to be conducted privately.  My wife knows mine should be open.
> 
> Active Masons tend to go to plenty of funerals -
> 
> 
> In time you will have been to at least one where there are only 5 in attendance.  The 3 brothers from lodge who are the minimum needed for the ceremony.  The dead brother who's from out of town who you never met before.  His widow staring amazed that a group of strangers would be there to do this to say goodbye to a brother they'd never met in person.  A funeral for a brother who was a stranger because there's no secret method to how we treat each other as kin we Just Do It.  There are secrets that can be published in books but we've still promised to not discuss them with non-members.  There are also secrets we could shout from the rooftops and they remain secret because they are about what we do.  Those Masonic funerals that are only for the widow delve deeply into that second type.  It's one of the things our mystic tie is about.
> 
> 
> 
> And most of us are still brothers the day we die.  Exactly.



My gma past before my gpa and there was only about 5 masons including my uncle if my memory serves me correct. The showed up, did their thing and left. I asked my mom what was going and she said she didn't know but it what gpa wanted.


Sent from my LG-VM696 using Freemasonry mobile app


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## dizlwizl

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> I have heard tales of hazing being conducted by some clandestine Lodges. Does hazing occur in PHA Lodges?



Not that I have heard. 

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## dizlwizl

At least not where I'm going 

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## Heart of Stone

No hazing in the PH lodges in Chattanooga Tn.

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## Bro. Vincent

No hazing in Missouri PHA that I know of...mental hazing yes lol, any body seen that goat?


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## dizlwizl

Bro. Vincent said:


> No hazing in Missouri PHA that I know of...mental hazing yes lol, any body seen that goat?
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Haven't seen him in a while. But boy can he buck! And he bites! 

Freemason Connect Mobile


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## Bro. Vincent

dizlwizl said:


> Haven't seen him in a while. But boy can he buck! And he bites!
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



They put that goat in a pen and had to tie him down he was feisty... I'm sorry for anyone that has to look him in the eye...


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## beamthadon

I wanna be a mason here in denver but its hard to come in contact with a lodge any help? 


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## easternsunray

It seems that there are many lodges in Denver. Have you looked for the nearest one from your residence?
The lodge list under the Grand Lodge of Colorado is available online.

http://www.coloradofreemasons.org/lodges/zipLodges.php


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## beamthadon

Just got in contact with a lodge in downtown denver, thanks brother. 


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## Jamarr/G\

Same here in USA TN. our Grand Lodge Master forbid any kind of hazing period! 

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## Michael Neumann

They should only be banned from the Sanctum Sanctorum


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## Michael Neumann

From the numerous reports I receive there is MUCH hazing in the Alpha Military lodge here on Bagram


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## MarkR

I won't haze, and I won't be hazed.  I won't join anything that expects me to subject myself to humiliation to become a member.


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## Belcher

i have heard that there is a lodge in the area that the prep. room is painted black and has skulls and candles. haven't been there to see it yet.


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## lsu4life4ever

What is a clandestine mason?


Humble Lodge No. 979 
Initiated on June 4th, 2013. 
Geaux Tigers! 
So Mote It Be!


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## scialytic

Looks like it boils down to "What MoT will be in the future"...I for one like the idea of a section for only MMs and maybe even one for Texas MMs: A String Theory multiplicitudinal dimension of the SS for MMs in TX only? ;-)


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## Bill Lins

lsu4life4ever said:


> What is a clandestine mason?


One who belongs to a Lodge and/or Grand Lodge not recognized as regular in origin by UGLE or the "mainstream" Grand Lodge of the particular jurisdiction.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

scialytic said:


> Looks like it boils down to "What MoT will be in the future"...I for one like the idea of a section for only MMs and maybe even one for Texas MMs: A String Theory multiplicitudinal dimension of the SS for MMs in TX only? ;-)



What would be the purpose of these sections?? What can be discussed there that can not already be discussed elsewhere?

IMO, what MoT is striving to do is beat down the barriers of this fraternity, not create new ones. Or am I completely misunderstanding your point?


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## crono782

I wonder perhaps some of the older members are wondering if Masons of Texas is having an identity crisis and is slowly but surely becoming Freemason Connect completely?


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## Benjamin Baxter

It is more freemason connect than MoT. It wouldn't be building more walls but labeling a certain type of discussion. I enjoyed MoT more when it was actually MoT than now. I am not saying that it is not one of the premiere forums for freemasonry, it just isnt what it was for me a year ago.

Freemason Connect Mobile


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## scialytic

Bro. Stewart said:


> What would be the purpose of these sections?? What can be discussed there that can not already be discussed elsewhere?
> 
> IMO, what MoT is striving to do is beat down the barriers of this fraternity, not create new ones. Or am I completely misunderstanding your point?



My main point is that there is a plethora of ideas, observations, innovations, criticisms, and wisdom in the previous posts and MoT could use any of them and prosper, but it would likely change the course of MoT. Daniel and the others are absolutely right that MoT has broken past Texas and that there could be complications within or from our own jurisdiction since this site is becoming the "Face of Texas Masonry" to many in other locations.

My quip about the multiple sections was a play on the comments above, but may also serve as a solution. By sectioning off content for Texas you prevent anybody from using that as a way to discredit MoT as painting Texas Masonry in an unfair way. It would also spare people from "inside-baseball" talk about our resolutions when the Grand Communication comes up as well as very specific inside-jurisdiction issues like CoR that invite all kind of bad-mouthing, objection, and other passionate and not necessarily appropriate responses directed at our jurisdiction specifically. But then a basic thread on CoR can be opened up for discussion by all without it being pointed at any one or group specifically.

The MM section would allow for more open discussion between MMs without any spam or (less chance of) ignorant rants or responses by profane (that doesn't prevent them from people like me ;-P ). It would be a pain in the butt, but once the main folks are established it would likely be (though Frater Porter has already indicated that he is intimately involved with the process) just sending a list of names to the respective jurisdiction (establishing Texas Masons first by profile and location would likely prove easiest).

To be absolutely honest, I was just responding. Thanks for making me think this through. It may not be where we (MoT) are heading, but it may help with some current minor concerns and many of the unforseen major concerns that WILL occur in the future. The more successful MoT gets, the worse the attacks will become...and the more devisive and precise the opposition will become. As the Australian proverb goes, "It's always the tallest poppy that gets chopped"--and MoT, my friends--is getting pretty tall...


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

Interesting point.


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## Warrior1256

JTM said:


> My opinion, as I've put in other threads is that not having them could be an opportunity to help someone out if they want.  Peacible citizens in general have always been welcome here.
> 
> Also, as a reminder, no communication here should be considered "Masonic" or "squared."


Agreed. The forum is not a tiled lodge so discussion or people should not be restricted.


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