# Being Challenged



## mrpierce17 (Jan 9, 2015)

I have often seen brothers on this forum speaking of being challenged whenever  a brother seeing them wearing the masonic S&C ask a question on the subject of masonry . I have news for you  brothers ,that is not being challenged , that is simply one man trying to discreetly see if another is the same as he . I wouldn't consider it a challenge if I was walking around a mall wearing a Miami Heat jersey and a stranger stop me and ask if I knew the score of the game last night , he probably assumed I was a fan and was not trying to test my allegiance , now this same man trying to tell me I shouldn't  wear my jersey is his opinion , the same man trying to remove the Jersey of my person is now challenging my manhood  I guess the point I'm trying to make is being asked a question is not being challenged it's someone trying to be informed on who you are , one thinking another's masonry is less or inferior to another when both taking the same obligation  to the same God is a being challenged , I guess the SW of every legally constituted Lodge feels challenged after every stated meeting I hope this has helped someone today Often, Never ,& ,Willing to be tried again Not Challenged ....Sincerely & Fraternally 
                   Bro.Pierce


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jan 9, 2015)

Interesting post Brother.  When this discussion has come up in the past I have always found it curious.  If I know a Brother then he has no reason to challenge me.  If a stranger challenges me why should I think that he has the right to do so?  How would this stranger establish his Masonic credentials to my satisfaction?  I see the whole challenge thing as a fantasy problem.


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## Brother_Steve (Jan 9, 2015)

Due Trial, Strict Examination or Lawful Masonic information obtained...

questions asked and answers demanded

How one is to be tried.

Being Vouched for by a Brother known to both parties. 3rd man in if you will.

All this happens in Lodge and set in motion by the proper authorities.

No mason has the right to lawfully try another mason on the street. You nor the other person can prove without a doubt that you are a Mason without sitting in Lodge together.

We took an obligation. That obligation may be blurred with the exchange of dues cards. However, in ancient times, the only way you were confirmed to be a mason was by the above sequence.

The questions to be asked, the manner in which they were asked and if someone known to both parties could vouch for you.

I never engage in masonic communication unless I know you to be a mason (sat in lodge with you) or if someone I sat in lodge with tells me you are a brother mason. The only time I will forgo anything is if I see someone in distress but at that point a human being need not be a Mason to receive help.


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## AndreAshlar (Jan 9, 2015)

When have we obligated to answer a question regarding masonry to ANYONE, let alone a stranger, who we don't know to be a mason?  Outside of a duly, tiled lodge?


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## mrpierce17 (Jan 9, 2015)

Brother_Steve said:


> Due Trial, Strict Examination or Lawful Masonic information obtained...
> 
> questions asked and answers demanded
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree with you more


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## AndreAshlar (Jan 9, 2015)

If I engage, it's by choice.  And with great caution..


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## mrpierce17 (Jan 9, 2015)

AndreAshlar said:


> If I engage, it's by choice.  And with great caution..


Lol exactly


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## bld4dx (Jan 10, 2015)

I almost never wear Masonic clothing or emblems. When I engage talk with some one who says they are a Mason I always whip out the dues card.  If he is able to do the same then I will allow the Masonic communication. Nowadays to many people are reading about what they think are secrets and just plain trying to play games trying to get Mason to talk to them. They think it is some kind of joke. I try to keep my Masonic communication to a minimal outside the Lodge, not much need for it on the street unless in distress.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 9, 2015)

In these forums and others I have heard of these on the street "challenges" getting to the point that the challenging person states that they will confiscate (i.e. steal) your Masonic ring, pin, etc., if they are not satisfied that you are a Mason.


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## BroBook (Oct 11, 2015)

There is actually a section in our ritual ( MWUGL ) that teach us how to " protect " our emblem, now don't get me wrong I would not try nor would I allow anyone to take anything.


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## AndreAshlar (Oct 11, 2015)

We have no such section in our ritual


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## BroBook (Oct 12, 2015)

Well it's actually a page, pretty basic, it starts with the inquisitive kid's constant question.


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## AndreAshlar (Oct 12, 2015)

BroBook said:


> Well it's actually a page, pretty basic, it starts with the inquisitive kid's constant question.


Got you.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Oct 13, 2015)

BroBook said:


> There is actually a section in our ritual ( MWUGL ) that teach us how to " protect " our emblem, now don't get me wrong I would not try nor would I allow anyone to take anything.


I've heard of brothers speaking about such, but have yet to see it. What happens if you meet a brother from another jurisdiction and he is not familiar with such. What do you do ?


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## BroBook (Oct 14, 2015)

Is really easy if you are proficient, I will go out on a limb ( taking saw with me ) and say that all PHA should know it ! It deals with an instrument of torture and is worn by a lot of brothers, the conversation starter is What is that?


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## MRichard (Oct 14, 2015)

There is no just reason to challenge anyone outside of a tiled lodge. It's a bad practice.


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## Brother_Steve (Oct 14, 2015)

MRichard said:


> There is no just reason to challenge anyone outside of a tiled lodge. It's a bad practice.


that and we do not have the authority to investigate and confirm masonic affiliation.


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## BroBook (Oct 14, 2015)

If you don't want anyone to ask questions I suggest that you not wear items that particularly/purposely attract attention, my opinion, if I was not reasonably sure a person was a mason I would not invite him or them to lodge.


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## Brother_Steve (Oct 14, 2015)

BroBook said:


> If you don't want anyone to ask questions I suggest that you not wear items that particularly/purposely attract attention, my opinion, if I was not reasonably sure a person was a mason I would not invite him or them to lodge.



It's easy to spot a real Brother. We will just talk your ear off about the latest lodge event or how their fishing went last weekend.  Trying to peg you down with a token or a word is the last thing on our minds when we spot a Brother in the wild.

I have one rule. I do not discuss anything masonic unless we sit in Lodge. I however can get a jist of who is who by the conversation. I'm not trying to get him to reveal the secrets and I'm not revealing any secrets. If it gets to that point I just ask him to come sit in lodge to continue the conversation, tell him to have a nice day and go about my business.


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## mrpierce17 (Oct 14, 2015)

Just ask him where he parks his goat lol


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## BroBook (Oct 14, 2015)

I was told not to let anyone ride him, so I left him at home.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 14, 2015)

BroBook said:


> I was told not to let anyone ride him, so I left him at home.


Lol....good one.


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## MRichard (Oct 14, 2015)

BroBook said:


> If you don't want anyone to ask questions I suggest that you not wear items that particularly/purposely attract attention, my opinion, if I was not reasonably sure a person was a mason I would not invite him or them to lodge.



No one has the authority to legally question a brother outside of lodge unless it is the grand lodge. If someone wants to wear anything masonic, that is not anyone's else business. You can't stop clandestine brothers from doing so, you sure shouldn't be able to stop a real brother. Thankfully, this is not practiced in my jurisdiction so I don't worry about it.


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## Peck1988 (Oct 14, 2015)

Hello brethren 

My name is Scott, I am a MM from the province of Cheshire, An (my opinion) is I think now and again we should (friendly) challenge any men or women, I've personally seen people saying they are masons to try get work for free or cheap from brothers they know are masons which is not practised or encouraged in my province or any for that matter in Britain, but on seeing this and knowing they wasn't, I challenged him which he gave a blank look then I out right asked them to which he admitted he was not, he tried to use are motto of brotherly love for his self gain but was ousted, the only reason someone would wear let's say a Masonic ring who is not is only after 1 thing self gain, which if he try's to a person who is anti Masonic then that gives them the fuel they need to burn is.


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## MRichard (Oct 14, 2015)

Peck1988 said:


> Hello brethren
> 
> My name is Scott, I am a MM from the province of Cheshire, An (my opinion) is I think now and again we should (friendly) challenge any men or women, I've personally seen people saying they are masons to try get work for free or cheap from brothers they know are masons which is not practised or encouraged in my province or any for that matter in Britain, but on seeing this and knowing they wasn't, I challenged him which he gave a blank look then I out right asked them to which he admitted he was not, he tried to use are motto of brotherly love for his self gain but was ousted, the only reason someone would wear let's say a Masonic ring who is not is only after 1 thing self gain, which if he try's to a person who is anti Masonic then that gives them the fuel they need to burn is.



That is another matter. The challenges I have a problem with involve physical force and taking another man's property which is against the law (assault & theft) and rather unmasonic.

I wouldn't have a problem with calling out a fraud, cowan, or whatever.


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## Peck1988 (Oct 15, 2015)

MRichard said:


> That is another matter. The challenges I have a problem with involve physical force and taking another man's property which is against the law (assault & theft) and rather unmasonic.
> 
> I wouldn't have a problem with calling out a fraud, cowan, or whatever.




Yes I agree with you.


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## anthonybeley (Oct 15, 2015)

on my opinion we don't need to challenge because with just one friendly grip we could know another in the dark as well as in the light... with all my travels i've met a lot of brothers from different jurisdictions and none challenged me because of that token


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## Peck1988 (Oct 15, 2015)

anthonybeley said:


> on my opinion we don't need to challenge because with just one friendly grip we could know another in the dark as well as in the light... with all my travels i've met a lot of brothers from different jurisdictions and none challenged me because of that token




In this day and age with the Internet a lot of are secrets are now public so even the grip is known, but there's little sayings and depending on your district or province only a mason would pick up on.


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## anthonybeley (Oct 15, 2015)

i agree with the power of the internet my brother but only a mason would know how to use it


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 15, 2015)

MRichard said:


> The challenges I have a problem with involve physical force and taking another man's property which is against the law (assault & theft) and rather unmasonic.


Agreed, and this was my point in replying to this thread. If someone were to try to take my personal property from me they would have a real problem. Has anyone else been in this situation or know someone who was?


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## Glen Cook (Oct 15, 2015)

MRichard said:


> No one has the authority to legally question a brother outside of lodge unless it is the grand lodge. If someone wants to wear anything masonic, that is not anyone's else business. You can't stop clandestine brothers from doing so, you sure shouldn't be able to stop a real brother. Thankfully, this is not practiced in my jurisdiction so I don't worry about it.


Depending on the jurisdiction


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## MRichard (Oct 16, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> Depending on the jurisdiction



Please elaborate. What part depends on the jurisdiction?


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## Glen Cook (Oct 16, 2015)

MRichard said:


> Please elaborate. What part depends on the jurisdiction?


The authority to question.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 21, 2015)

Brother_Steve said:


> No mason has the right to lawfully try another mason on the street. You nor the other person can prove without a doubt that you are a Mason without sitting in Lodge together.


This is the way that I see it.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 21, 2015)

MRichard said:


> The challenges I have a problem with involve physical force and taking another man's property which is against the law (assault & theft) and rather unmasonic.


Exactly!


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## Cootr68 (Dec 26, 2015)

I am an over the road truck driver. I have a S&C on both sides of my truck and 1 one the back of the trailer. I have interacted with many security guards and guys loading  /unloading me say are you a mason. It then usually just gets to small talk about offices held, involvement in SR and YR and see that guy there he's a mason also. Have even been asked if I were going to be in town for the night as it was lodge night and they would come and pick me up if I wanted to go. I have never been challenged publicly though.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 26, 2015)

Cootr68 said:


> Have even been asked if I were going to be in town for the night as it was lodge night and they would come and pick me up if I wanted to go. I have never been challenged publicly though.


This is good, the way that these interactions should be.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 27, 2015)

mrpierce17 said:


> I have often seen brothers on this forum speaking of being challenged whenever  a brother seeing them wearing the masonic S&C ask a question on the subject of masonry . I have news for you  brothers ,that is not being challenged , that is simply one man trying to discreetly see if another is the same as he . I wouldn't consider it a challenge if I was walking around a mall wearing a Miami Heat jersey and a stranger stop me and ask if I knew the score of the game last night , he probably assumed I was a fan and was not trying to test my allegiance , now this same man trying to tell me I shouldn't  wear my jersey is his opinion , the same man trying to remove the Jersey of my person is now challenging my manhood  I guess the point I'm trying to make is being asked a question is not being challenged it's someone trying to be informed on who you are , one thinking another's masonry is less or inferior to another when both taking the same obligation  to the same God is a being challenged , I guess the SW of every legally constituted Lodge feels challenged after every stated meeting I hope this has helped someone today Often, Never ,& ,Willing to be tried again Not Challenged ....Sincerely & Fraternally
> Bro.Pierce



I think there are situations where people are just being jerks (not always, some are just being friendly), asking "where you come from?" or something to that degree. If a person asks me about a ring, lapel or something, I tell them what it is but I think if the asker is being rhetorical and/or rude, then he's the one with the problem, not the brother who may just walk away or cut the conversation short. Maybe the asker is the PM of his lodge and knows everything about Masonry but he doesn't have the right to stop people in the street and shake another brother down based on what ring or auto decal he has. I've never read anywhere that says you should 'challenge' someone nor have I ever read that I need to provide proof of my fraternal ties to anyone that asks me outside of a lawfully constituted lodge. Especially if they are a stranger to me. I have just as much a right to know if they are MM or not as they do to me.

You bring up good points and interesting conversation...fortunately, I've never been 'challenged' on the street. If someone asked me to give them a grip or where am I traveling etc., I would certainly not oblige.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 27, 2015)

Warrior1256 said:


> In these forums and others I have heard of these on the street "challenges" getting to the point that the challenging person states that they will confiscate (i.e. steal) your Masonic ring, pin, etc., if they are not satisfied that you are a Mason.



And that may get a man KO'd lol...If I don't know him to be as such, then he's just another guy as far as I'm concerned.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 27, 2015)

MRichard said:


> No one has the authority to legally question a brother outside of lodge unless it is the grand lodge. If someone wants to wear anything masonic, that is not anyone's else business. You can't stop clandestine brothers from doing so, you sure shouldn't be able to stop a real brother. Thankfully, this is not practiced in my jurisdiction so I don't worry about it.



I agree. If someone wants to wear their deceased father's Masonic ring, so be it. It's not a federal law otherwise. I don't like it or agree with it, but it is what it is. Can someone question you? Sure, but no need to be rude about it.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 27, 2015)

CLewey44 said:


> And that may get a man KO'd lol...If I don't know him to be as such, then he's just another guy as far as I'm concerned.


If someone tried to take my personal property from me one of us would, indeed, get knocked out!


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## Mel Knight (Dec 28, 2015)

I won't engage if I don't know you personally, unless we're in lodge


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 28, 2015)

Mel Knight said:


> I won't engage if I don't know you personally, unless we're in lodge


Makes perfect sense to me. If I see a man in public wearing a Masonic ring, lapel pin, etc. if I do anything it will be to approach the man, stick out my hand and say "Hello, I'm from such and such lodge in Kentucky. Where are you from?" No actual Masonic Communication.


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## flipster (Dec 30, 2015)

If anyone tried to forcibly remove any of my personal items, I would remind them they promised not to cheat, wrong, nor defraud me.  Heck, might even get into why they might be giving the GHS of distress.  LOL.  Actually, I have never had an unkind exchange with a mason.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 31, 2015)

flipster said:


> Actually, I have never had an unkind exchange with a mason.


Same here, but I have been reading on this forum that some people will actually try to take your Masonic "bling" if you can not prove to their satisfaction that you are a Mason and this actually does make me angry. My reply to such a person would be "If you get it you'll take it".


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## Dontrell Stroman (Dec 31, 2015)

Warrior1256 said:


> Same here, but I have been reading on this forum that some people will actually try to take your Masonic "bling" if you can not prove to their satisfaction that you are a Mason and this actually does make me angry. My reply to such a person would be "If you get it you'll take it".


If I'm not mistaken, it's more of a Prince Hall thing. I've spoke with many "Mainstream" masons, and they have never heard of such. I really don't know who started it, but I was friends with a guy on face book that took a guys hat because he had a square and compass on it and he couldn't answer the questions the guy asked. Not to mention, the questions are what you call "Street Masonry". How could a man sleep at night especially a brother mason knowing he stole from a brother all because he was not as knowledgeable as you. I must say, I removed that brother from my friends list. Kinda makes me even wonder if the guy was really a mason. For one, it's unmasonic to steal not to mention it's against our obligation.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 31, 2015)

Travelling Man91 said:


> but I'm friends with a guy on face book that took a guys hat because he had a square and compass on it and he couldn't answer the questions the guy asked.


I'm a peaceful man but if this guy had attempted to take my personal property I would do my best to see that he failed in his attempt and had nothing must multiple bumps, bruises and abrasions to show for it.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Dec 31, 2015)

I know how upset it makes you, I feel the same way. It's the same in the Elks lodge also. They take if you can't "defend" I think it's stupid


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