# Junior Warden North or South?



## hwood (May 24, 2017)

I've seen photos and layouts of lodge rooms where the Junior Warden was in the North not in the South.  I thought this was weird because, here in Pennsylvania the Junior Warden is in the South. I haven't seen freemasonry outside of Pennsylvania. 
Is this common in different countries or even here in the states? 




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## Bloke (May 24, 2017)

No idea....South here though....


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## Brother JC (May 24, 2017)

Never encountered that before. If you can track down some of these "photos and layouts" I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see them.


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## RayverInColorado (May 24, 2017)

South in Colorado 


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## Ripcord22A (May 24, 2017)

In some jurisdictions the Chaplain sits in the N, in AZ the IPM sits there

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## MBC (May 24, 2017)

I believe that Junior Warden should always be sitting in the South because he needs to observe the meridian 
Unless it's in Southern Hemisphere, but as Bloke said, the Australian masons located their JWs in the South as we do


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## MarkR (May 25, 2017)

I wonder if the picture was printed reversed.  I've never heard of the JW sitting in the north.


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## hwood (May 25, 2017)

I may have been misinformed about the pictures. There are more likely Knights of Pythias or a Oddfellow's Lodge room. I'm not too familiar with either one of them orders. But from my research that's as close as I can find. 


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## SimonM (May 25, 2017)

Or he can be in the West as is done in a few other rites 


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## Brother_Steve (May 25, 2017)

photos in open lodge bothers me on some level.

having said that, it could be a couple of things.

The picture was taken from the East looking West. How many steps were under the chair of what you thought was the East?

the image was most likely mirrored. Is there any text in the picture? Maybe a backwards G above the East?

Best way to tell would be to look at the altar in the pic. three things would be arranged incorrectly.


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## Warrior1256 (May 25, 2017)

Never encountered the JW sitting anywhere but the south.


Ripcord22A said:


> In some jurisdictions the Chaplain sits in the N,


I have seen this in other lodges in my jurisdiction.


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## hwood (May 25, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> photos in open lodge bothers me on some level.
> 
> having said that, it could be a couple of things.
> 
> ...



I went back and looked at the pictures and thinking you might be right.But the G is the East facing the right way over the (WM) there is an Eastern star symbol over the West over the (SW). But even the secretary's desk was on the wrong side of the room it's where the chaplain normally sits. V.S.L. It's close on the altar. I would love to put the pictures on here but there are people walking around in the lodge and I don't know who they are.I do know the lodges in Oregon. 


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## Bloke (May 25, 2017)

hwood said:


> I went back and looked at the pictures and thinking you might be right.But the G is the East facing the right way over the (WM) there is an Eastern star symbol over the West over the (SW). But even the secretary's desk was on the wrong side of the room it's where the chaplain normally sits. V.S.L. It's close on the altar. I would love to put the pictures on here but there are people walking around in the lodge and I don't know who they are.I do know the lodges in Oregon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app



Is the G on a string or wall ( sounds like later) if on string, it may have moved ( I take a lot of photos and sponsors G on string and wait for it to be in the correct spot, but sometimes I get impatient and just take the photograph)


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## Ripcord22A (May 25, 2017)

hwood said:


> I went back and looked at the pictures and thinking you might be right.But the G is the East facing the right way over the (WM) there is an Eastern star symbol over the West over the (SW). But even the secretary's desk was on the wrong side of the room it's where the chaplain normally sits. V.S.L. It's close on the altar. I would love to put the pictures on here but there are people walking around in the lodge and I don't know who they are.I do know the lodges in Oregon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


I'm an Oregon member out of Klamath Falls.  On our lodge layouts, it shows the Chaplain in the N.  However in practice he sits west of the alter on the north side of the lodge.  Please PM those photos

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## Matt L (May 25, 2017)

If every lodge is a representation of King Solomon's Temple, the north is a place of darkness.


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## hwood (May 26, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Is the G on a string or wall ( sounds like later) if on string, it may have moved ( I take a lot of photos and sponsors G on string and wait for it to be in the correct spot, but sometimes I get impatient and just take the photograph)









I think you may be right. But like I said earlier, I've never seen freemasonry outside of Pennsylvania and I'm pretty new to this. 



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## Ripcord22A (May 26, 2017)

That's not Oregon.  In Oregon the light tapers(lesser lights) must be around the alter NE, NW AND SW

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## Ripcord22A (May 26, 2017)

That G is in the middle of the room and in Oregon is over the WM.  Also the alter is supposed to be in the middle with the VSL & S&C rightside up as viewed from the W

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## Ripcord22A (May 26, 2017)

What i circled on there is the working tool...its a lvl....this is looking West

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## Roy_ (May 26, 2017)

This is one of these notable differences.

In my lodge, the Junior Warden is in the North and the pillar has a B.
Another lodge that uses the same place, has the B on the other pillar, but the JW  in the North as well. Therefor the password for the first two degrees are the other way around than with us. (J for EA and B for FC.)
In both cases the Warden has to oversee the "column" (the bench where people with no function take place) on the same side (looking or walking alongside people), but in other lodges on the opposite side (S for the JW), which makes it easier to see if everybody has the sign right.


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## Warrior1256 (May 26, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> However in practice he sits west of the alter on the north side of the lodge. Please PM those photos


In most of the lodges that I have been in the Chaplain sits in front of and to the left of the WM. In a few places they sit in the north.


Ripcord22A said:


> this is looking West


Yep, agree.


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## hwood (May 26, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> View attachment 5747
> What i circled on there is the working tool...its a lvl....this is looking West
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app



Good eye. I couldn't even make the symbol out. 
Thank you for the information about Oregon lodges. 
I didn't even look at the steps they're not even correct. lol. I would agree with you it's from the west.
As I can see there is so much for me to learn in my journey. Thank you very much brother

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## Ripcord22A (May 26, 2017)

Roy_ said:


> This is one of these notable differences.
> 
> In my lodge, the Junior Warden is in the North and the pillar has a B.
> Another lodge that uses the same place, has the B on the other pillar, but the JW  in the North as well. Therefor the password for the first two degrees are the other way around than with us. (J for EA and B for FC.)
> In both cases the Warden has to oversee the "column" (the bench where people with no function take place) on the same side (looking or walking alongside people), but in other lodges on the opposite side (S for the JW), which makes it easier to see if everybody has the sign right.


If i remember correctly your in a coed lodge right?

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## Bloke (May 26, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> View attachment 5747
> What i circled on there is the working tool...its a lvl....this is looking West
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


LOL...

As the person who took that photo of a Victorian (in Australia) Lodge Room... I can confirm the tool is the level and in the West.. .and that G is on a string.. and it was moving which is why it is blurred...  there are clearer images on the source web site.

And the steps up to warden's seats are not "correct" in that lodge room.. the JW has an extra one..


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## Ripcord22A (May 26, 2017)

I knew it wasn't Oregon

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## Bloke (May 26, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> In most of the lodges that I have been in the Chaplain sits in front of and to the left of the WM. In a few places they sit in the north.
> 
> Yep, agree.



Here Chaplin, Master and IPM sit together and in a line running north to South on the East wall.. all looking towards west, WM in middle, IPM on the Master's left hand, Chaplain at his right hand.


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## Warrior1256 (May 27, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Here Chaplin, Master and IPM sit together and in a line running north to South on the East wall.. all looking towards west, WM in middle, IPM on the Master's left hand, Chaplain at his right hand.


So far I haven't visited outside of Kentucky. Haven't seen the differences in the other states let alone outside of the country. Maybe someday, lol.


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## Matt L (May 30, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> So far I haven't visited outside of Kentucky. Haven't seen the differences in the other states let alone outside of the country. Maybe someday, lol.



Hey Jarhead, come on down to Tennessee.  You  got a place to stay and we'll go to some lodges.  I'm 30 minutes South of Murray Ky.


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## Warrior1256 (May 31, 2017)

Matt L said:


> Hey Jarhead, come on down to Tennessee. You got a place to stay and we'll go to some lodges. I'm 30 minutes South of Murray Ky.


Cool! May do that sometime. Thanks Bro.


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## Roy_ (May 31, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> If i remember correctly your in a coed lodge right?



Yep, but that's not the reason it's the other way around in my lodge. Lodges in the same order, but working with a different Rite, have the Wardens at the same places as us (and the other lodge that uses the same place as we do), but the pillars the other way around. When I ask why it's different with us, the answer is always that it's a matter of looking out from the inside or the other way around. That (of course) does not explain *why* that choice was made.

A fact remains that it's different in different rites. Even the Wardens 'change places' in some rites. At some point people probably had good reasons to construct it the way they did.


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## Warrior1256 (May 31, 2017)

Roy_ said:


> A fact remains that it's different in different rites. Even the Wardens 'change places' in some rites. At some point people probably had good reasons to construct it the way they did.


Interesting!


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## Roy_ (May 31, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Interesting!


You know what's even more interesting? The rite that my lodge uses is based on the 1928 rite of the Grand Orient of the Netherlands (the Dutch regular order), but nowadays we have the pillars differently from them. So did they swap the pillars at some point (they edited the rituals more than we did) or did we? 
I'll have to lay my hands on older versions of our own and their rituals to be able to answer that question. This is (fortunately perhaps) not easy. There's similar questions that I'd like to have answered for myself, so I've been tracking down ritual texts recently.


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## acjohnson53 (May 31, 2017)

Y'all doing to much....SMDH


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## acjohnson53 (May 31, 2017)

Who sits to the left of the WM????


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## Keith C (May 31, 2017)

acjohnson53 said:


> Who sits to the left of the WM????



Here in PA, the Treasurer, with the Chaplain between the two but one step down.


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## David Duke (May 31, 2017)

In Texas the Secretary is to the WM left. 


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## Bloke (May 31, 2017)

acjohnson53 said:


> Who sits to the left of the WM????


Here the IPM is at the Master's left hand


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## Warrior1256 (May 31, 2017)

In Kentucky it's the Secretary on the same level, three steps down it is the Chaplain.


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## Ripcord22A (May 31, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Here the IPM is at the Master's left hand


When i attended the MM deg in Arizona, there IPM sits in the N

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## Brother JC (May 31, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> When i attended the MM deg in Arizona, there IPM sits in the N


In NM there's not even supposed to be a chair there... but all the lodges have one.


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## MarkR (Jun 1, 2017)

Here the Lodge Education Officer is to the immediate left of the WM!  Also true in Grand Lodge; the Deputy Grand Master sits on the right of the Grand Master, the Grand Lodge Education Officer sits on his left.


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 1, 2017)

I have only seen one person sit beside the WM and that was an invited guest.


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## Carl_in_NH (Jun 1, 2017)

In NH the Chaplin sits to the Master's left, as does the Secretary - who is three steps down. Immediately to the Master's right is another chair for a guest - or the DDGM during official visits. Treasurer is to the right, on the same level with the Secretary. 

Perhaps the chair in the North are lodges who share a room with Eastern Star - while I'm not a member of ES I have observed such a chair in these shared lodge rooms, in addition to the normal JW's station in the South. 


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 2, 2017)

Carl_in_NH said:


> Perhaps the chair in the North are lodges who share a room with Eastern Star - while I'm not a member of ES I have observed such a chair in these shared lodge rooms, in addition to the normal JW's station in the South.


Every lodge room that I have been in (Kentucky) has a chair in the North. Don't know why. Never thought to ask.


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## Keith C (Jun 2, 2017)

Carl_in_NH said:


> Perhaps the chair in the North are lodges who share a room with Eastern Star - while I'm not a member of ES I have observed such a chair in these shared lodge rooms, in addition to the normal JW's station in the South.





Warrior1256 said:


> Every lodge room that I have been in (Kentucky) has a chair in the North. Don't know why. Never thought to ask.



I recently went to a Shadow Night at a Rainbow Girls event and they use a chair in the North and I was told OES does as well.  There are older photos of our lodge room that show a chair in the North, but we do not have one now.  I asked and some longer term members said that when the OES stopped meeting in our lodge room, they removed the chair.  So it could be for OES or Rainbow if they also use the lodge room.


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 2, 2017)

Keith C said:


> said that when the OES stopped meeting in our lodge room, they removed the chair. So it could be for OES or Rainbow if they also use the lodge room.


Good reasoning. I'll ask some of the other members as I am now curious.


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## Carl_in_NH (Jun 2, 2017)

My better half is former Rainbow, and she said they have a chair in the North. 

While there was an OES chapter in my lodge many decades ago, it consolidated with another chapter in the adjacent town and departed our building. Since which time the lodge room interior has undergone some renovations - last sometime in the early 70's, I think. We have no chair in the north, other than side-liner benches.

While OES may have departed our building, they left the OES dishes in the kitchen. Boy, did they have dishes. We've got cabinets full of OES decorated china. I've washed them a few thousand times in my Masonic career, too


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## Keith C (Jun 2, 2017)

Carl_in_NH said:


> While OES may have departed our building, they left the OES dishes in the kitchen. Boy, did they have dishes. We've got cabinets full of OES decorated china. I've washed them a few thousand times in my Masonic career, too



Funny!

We have dishes from both lodges that merged to form our current lodge - Shiloh Lodge 558 and MacCalla Lodge 596 and there was recently talk of getting NEW china that has Shiloh - MacCalla Lodge 558 on it, as if two enormous sets of china were not enough!  We hold onto it however, because the GL won't let us sell it, give it away or get rid of it in any manner other than destroying it as they don't want "Masonic China" out and about outside the control of a lodge, so we keep it because destroying it just rubs everyone the wrong way!


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 2, 2017)

Keith C said:


> the GL won't let us sell it, give it away or get rid of it in any manner other than destroying it as they don't want "Masonic China" out and about outside the control of a lodge, so we keep it because destroying it just rubs everyone the wrong way!


Wow! I can kind of see their point of view however.


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## Bloke (Jun 2, 2017)

Keith C said:


> Funny!
> 
> We have dishes from both lodges that merged to form our current lodge - Shiloh Lodge 558 and MacCalla Lodge 596 and there was recently talk of getting NEW china that has Shiloh - MacCalla Lodge 558 on it, as if two enormous sets of china were not enough!  We hold onto it however, because the GL won't let us sell it, give it away or get rid of it in any manner other than destroying it as they don't want "Masonic China" out and about outside the control of a lodge, so we keep it because destroying it just rubs everyone the wrong way!



Could you present one to each new MM?


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 2, 2017)

Keith C said:


> Funny!
> 
> We have dishes from both lodges that merged to form our current lodge - Shiloh Lodge 558 and MacCalla Lodge 596 and there was recently talk of getting NEW china that has Shiloh - MacCalla Lodge 558 on it, as if two enormous sets of china were not enough!  We hold onto it however, because the GL won't let us sell it, give it away or get rid of it in any manner other than destroying it as they don't want "Masonic China" out and about outside the control of a lodge, so we keep it because destroying it just rubs everyone the wrong way!


Better you ask 4 forgiveness then permission

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## Brother_Steve (Jun 3, 2017)

Keith C said:


> Here in PA, the Treasurer, with the Chaplain between the two but one step down.


You need to come visit a nj Lodge if you're close enough to the border. I think it would blow your mind. I'm sure it would do the same to me if I ever made a trip to pa


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## hwood (Jun 4, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> You need to come visit a nj Lodge if you're close enough to the border. I think it would blow your mind. I'm sure it would do the same to me if I ever made a trip to pa



I'm a PA mason. From what I was told by my mentor New Jersey and New York we're different specially with the 1st°. I for one would love to see this. I live 20 miles from the border NJ outside of Allentown. 


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## Keith C (Jun 5, 2017)

hwood said:


> I'm a PA mason. From what I was told by my mentor New Jersey and New York we're different specially with the 1st°. I for one would love to see this. I live 20 miles from the border NJ outside of Allentown.
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app



From my understanding we in PA are different from any other jurisdiction in the US as we kept the Rituals of the "Antients" as there were no "Modern" lodges remaining in PA when the two merged.  Every other US jurisdiction had a mix of "Moderns" and "Antients" and therefor the rituals were combined into one, but actually had more "Modern" content.

I am also not too far from the NJ line, I live about 30 miles west of the NJ line, near Boyertown, PA.  I do want to get to a NJ lodge at some point in the not too distant future.


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