# Can we?



## billyjfootball (Nov 18, 2017)

Can we survive?  I'm worried, fellows.  I'm worried.  There's been a lot of merging of lodges around here.  I'm scared that my lodge, which has been around since the late 1800s, will close or merge. We initiate a guy every three months.  After that three months, they're gone.  Never seen again.  It hurts.  Makes me sick, sad.  We cannot sustain ourselves!!!  Nobody wants to make extra meetings.  It's down to about a consistent 9.  When these older, awesome elder-statesman decide to hang their aprons up, what will happen?  Seems like we're fading.  Hurts me to say it!!!  Back in day we had 60 guys at an extra meeting and now we have nine.  I'm worried.  I'm thinking merging might be the best thing.  I'm sad but HOPEFUL of our future.


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## Brother JC (Nov 18, 2017)

It is sad but we set ourselves up for it. If the lodge you’re merging with is vibrant I’d say do it, use that momentum. But if it’s another “consistent 9” you’ll still need to find a way to get active.
Best of luck!


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## Glen Cook (Nov 18, 2017)

billyjfootball said:


> Can we survive?  I'm worried, fellows.  I'm worried.  There's been a lot of merging of lodges around here.  I'm scared that my lodge, which has been around since the late 1800s, will close or merge. We initiate a guy every three months.  After that three months, they're gone.  Never seen again.  It hurts.  Makes me sick, sad.  We cannot sustain ourselves!!!  Nobody wants to make extra meetings.  It's down to about a consistent 9.  When these older, awesome elder-statesman decide to hang their aprons up, what will happen?  Seems like we're fading.  Hurts me to say it!!!  Back in day we had 60 guys at an extra meeting and now we have nine.  I'm worried.  I'm thinking merging might be the best thing.  I'm sad but HOPEFUL of our future.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


When you call them to go to lodge with you, what is the response?


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## Keith C (Nov 18, 2017)

My Lodge is the result of two Lodges that merged in 2014.  One Lodge had a vibrant group of members and a solid financial base, due to the forced sale of their Lodge Building (long and sad story of an over-reaching local Government) and the other had a shrinking membership and a Lodge building with "great bones" but in need of a bunch of work.  I was raised just under a year ago (11/30/16) and we have had one or two extra meetings every month with one or two brothers receiving degrees.  We are, however, barely keeping up with brothers who have left for the house not built by hands.  Happily the majority of new brothers are becoming active.  I will be Junior Warden next year ( I was Junior Deacon this year) a Brother who went through the degrees with me will be Senior Deacon next year and all but one of the newer brothers have been filling chairs for degrees.

Keep positive!  Everyone from both lodges that formed my lodge would agree that things are better now than they were in either lodge separately.  A merger may be a big positive for you.


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## David612 (Nov 18, 2017)

Of cause we can, not every lodge will.
At the end of the day going to lodge has to be more interesting than the latest Star Trek Discovery episode.


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## Bloke (Nov 19, 2017)

billyjfootball said:


> Can we survive?  I'm worried, fellows.  I'm worried.  There's been a lot of merging of lodges around here.  I'm scared that my lodge, which has been around since the late 1800s, will close or merge. We initiate a guy every three months.  After that three months, they're gone.  Never seen again.  It hurts.  Makes me sick, sad.  We cannot sustain ourselves!!!  Nobody wants to make extra meetings.  It's down to about a consistent 9.  When these older, awesome elder-statesman decide to hang their aprons up, what will happen?  Seems like we're fading.  Hurts me to say it!!!  Back in day we had 60 guys at an extra meeting and now we have nine.  I'm worried.  I'm thinking merging might be the best thing.  I'm sad but HOPEFUL of our future.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


The question is not will you survive, but how too, and the the first port of call on that journey is knowing why do you not keep those 4 men you're initiating every 3 months. I'd be asking them.

Often, Lodges just don't value candidates, but their like your masonic children, you have a duty to them and they will be your successors and will carry on your name and your traditions. They're one of the most important assets a lodge can have, and they are often not valued as they should be.


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## Elexir (Nov 19, 2017)

This problem is not just limited to freemasonry but to all fraternetys.

I am in an other fraternal order besides freemasonry where some of the older high ranking members describe how the change in time and how familes work diffrently then when they joined. Another problem has also been that they hade a large influx of members at one time and becuse of that they was content and didnt work that hard to make sure it stayed that way.


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## David612 (Nov 19, 2017)

Those involved in masonry are also spread thin, how many are members of multiple craft lodges, side orders, work full time, are on committees, are mentoring a new candidate and so on, many brethren get so involved and don’t have the time to look beyond the superficial of the fraternity..


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 19, 2017)

Two of my lodges are experiencing the same problem.


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## CLewey44 (Nov 19, 2017)

I joined to find out the mysteries as most of us did but was pretty disappointed. Not disappointed in Masonry but how it was presented and the follow-up from there. To be frank with you, I enjoy the concordant body I'm involved with more than BL and growing from there requires BL membership so I do keep it. Not saying I don't enjoy BL however other groups are more my speed. I don't get excited to go to most BL meetings but I do look forward to my appendant body's meetings. I've said it before and I'll say it again, T.O. is the future of American Masonry I think. There is a lot of enthusiasm in T.O. lodge development than your run-of-the-mill BL. It was the best BL experience I've ever had and it is my ultimate goal to be a member of one of them. My dad and granddad's generation and version of BL is what is dying off. Masonry is likely going back to healthy numbers in a lot of ways. At least I hope so with the emergence of T.O./Euro lodges.


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## JJones (Nov 19, 2017)

billyjfootball said:


> Can we survive?  I'm worried, fellows.  I'm worried.  There's been a lot of merging of lodges around here.  I'm scared that my lodge, which has been around since the late 1800s, will close or merge. We initiate a guy every three months.  After that three months, they're gone.  Never seen again.  It hurts.  Makes me sick, sad.  We cannot sustain ourselves!!!  Nobody wants to make extra meetings.  It's down to about a consistent 9.  When these older, awesome elder-statesman decide to hang their aprons up, what will happen?  Seems like we're fading.  Hurts me to say it!!!  Back in day we had 60 guys at an extra meeting and now we have nine.  I'm worried.  I'm thinking merging might be the best thing.  I'm sad but HOPEFUL of our future.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app



What steps have you or your lodge taken to address this? Have you met to discuss what you've done so far and why it hasn't worked? What research has been done on lodge improvement?

It's a lot of questions but of you don't have an answer for one of them then you need to give it some consideration if this really concerns you. Some lodges probably just need to die or merge (we have one in my town) but usually lodges die from inaction.


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 19, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> To be frank with you, I enjoy the concordant body I'm involved with more than BL and growing from there requires BL membership so I do keep it. Not saying I don't enjoy BL however other groups are more my speed. I don't get excited to go to most BL meetings but I do look forward to my appendant body's meetings.


I can understand this and feel some what the same way.


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 19, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> I joined to find out the mysteries as most of us did but was pretty disappointed.



I was disappointed to find out that we aren’t running the world


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 19, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> >I joined to find out the mysteries as most of us did but was pretty disappointed.
> 
> That is the standard experience and yet it is not a one-sided problem.
> 
> ...



1- nope.  How else are you supposed to request entrance some where?  Be like “Yo! I’m out here y’all gonna let me in?!”

2- literally everyone I’ve seen as a Tyler, JD SD or candidate just knocks 3 times.

3- the right speed is to pass the candidate in front of the S,E,W stations as the sections of scripture are completed so the officer can Gavel at the proper time.  It feels right cause it flows right

4- clockwise is cause time moves foreword and we want to move forward.  Right is life left is death. NO and nothing




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## JJones (Nov 19, 2017)

I think somebody has already pointed this out but the reason we are losing members soon after they join (especially the younger ones) is that we are not living up to their expectations they had prior to joining.

Most men expect big things out of an old, respectable, and somewhat mysterious fraternity like ours. Imagine how they feel when they join and learn their lodge is likely all about fish fries, pancake breakfast, low dues, poorly maintained buildings, poor leadership, and a wide-open West Gate. These are the things we need to fix if we want to plug the hole in our bucket.

The links included all go to my blog, by the way. It's easier to link people to my rants than to type it all over again, so I hope nobody minds.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 19, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> 1- nope.  How else are you supposed to request entrance some where?  Be like “Yo! I’m out here y’all gonna let me in?!”
> 
> 2- literally everyone I’ve seen as a Tyler, JD SD or candidate just knocks 3 times.
> 
> ...


EC Lodges have a particular manner in which the K are given in each degree. Your correspondent failed to note this.


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 19, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> EC Lodges have a particular manner in which the K are given in each degree. Your correspondent failed to note this.



Never been in an EC lodge.  I’m just going off my experience where they just knock


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## CLewey44 (Nov 19, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> When we get a new IG I spend a little time with him as he tries various speeds for the knocks until he gets a feel for the right tempo.
> 
> So what is the right speed for perambulating the candidate? Why does that feel right?



....ummmm....ok, this is just....


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 19, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> 1- nope. How else are you supposed to request entrance some where? Be like “Yo! I’m out here y’all gonna let me in?!”
> 
> 2- literally everyone I’ve seen as a Tyler, JD SD or candidate just knocks 3 times.
> 
> ...


Good answers Brother Rip!


Ripcord22A said:


> 1- nope. How else are you supposed to request entrance some where? Be like “Yo! I’m out here y’all gonna let me in?!”


LOL!!!!!!!!!! Little bit of humor Bro.?


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## David612 (Nov 19, 2017)

Step One: Take a new candidate 
Step two: Perambulate vigorously.
Step three: Add light..


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 19, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> ...ummmm....ok, this is just....


Exactly!


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## Brother_Steve (Nov 19, 2017)

David612 said:


> Step One: Take a new candidate
> Step two: Perambulate vigorously.
> Step three: Add light..


You forgot a few things...

1. Take new candidate.
2. Perambulate vigorously 
3. Add light
4. ???
5. Profit


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## Brother_Steve (Nov 19, 2017)

billyjfootball said:


> Can we survive?  I'm worried, fellows.  I'm worried.  There's been a lot of merging of lodges around here.  I'm scared that my lodge, which has been around since the late 1800s, will close or merge. We initiate a guy every three months.  After that three months, they're gone.  Never seen again.  It hurts.  Makes me sick, sad.  We cannot sustain ourselves!!!  Nobody wants to make extra meetings.  It's down to about a consistent 9.  When these older, awesome elder-statesman decide to hang their aprons up, what will happen?  Seems like we're fading.  Hurts me to say it!!!  Back in day we had 60 guys at an extra meeting and now we have nine.  I'm worried.  I'm thinking merging might be the best thing.  I'm sad but HOPEFUL of our future.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


What is your lodge doing for programs?

What is your lodge doing to occupy newly initiated, passed and raised brethren?

What is your lodge doing for lodge activities? Cigar nights, st. Patty's dinner, whiskey tasting, breakfast with the Easter bunny, breakfast with santa gets families and friends involved. 

What is your overall membership numbers? Can you get enough to commit to an event listed above?

What is the overall attitude of the members? If all they want to do is, "sit on the porch and watch time pass by," you're not going to get where you need to be.


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## David612 (Nov 19, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> You forgot a few things...
> 
> 1. Take new candidate.
> 2. Perambulate vigorously
> ...


Ugh also forgot to read the minutes!


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## Bloke (Nov 19, 2017)

JJones said:


> I think somebody has already pointed this out but the reason we are losing members soon after they join (especially the younger ones) is that we are not living up to their expectations they had prior to joining... .



I think "managing their expectations" is important. Freemasonry does not work like a lightening bolt, but more like water on a pebble in a stream. I also tell them, this is your lodge and if you think it needs to be changed - let's do that, and we do, but that's not a common thing - and even when your willing to empower new bros, many of them will just hang back and passively go with the flow.


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## dfreybur (Nov 20, 2017)

Please ask yourself what the word "we" means in your question.

Individual - None of us makes it out alive.  This is one of the most important lessons in life and in lodge.  We build that the next generation might have a larger infrastructure on which to build.  Then we move on to the adventure of what happens after life.

Masonry worldwide and nation wide - There are century long trends of Masonry becoming more popular then becoming less popular.  Because so many of us become 50 year members we will encounter long time Brothers who their entire life they have seen degree rates in decline, so they think Masonry is dying.  But find a Brother who has been around 300 years and he'll report both an up cycle AND a down cycle.  Fortunately we call these Brothers "history books".

Lodges - Lodges, like members, are mortal.  We need to not focus on trying to make them immortal.  Consolidating into vibrant lodges is a part of the deal across the history of Masonry.  Lodges are born, learn, work, retire, die.  They just go through this cycle on a time scale longer than a human lifetime.  Let it happen, and learn from the lodges that are vibrant.

Masonic Renewal.  It's a foundation.  It's an individual practice.  It's a lodge life cycle reality.  It's a world wide historical trend.

See that vibrant lodge over there?  They are all around.  Affiliate and/or emulate.  Let go the worry seeing that vibrant lodge.


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## jermy Bell (Nov 20, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> >After that three months, they're gone. Never seen again
> 
> This is a common problem.  In my view the candidates feel drawn by the mysteries of Freemasonry but when they get into the lodge they cannot find what drew them and cannot find any brother to discuss those mysteries.
> 
> ...


Ok, I've heard this took a turn for the worst in 1717. How long ago was that ? Most of the older brothers I have talked to said their lodges was jumping in the 1960s through the 1980s. The lodge was the place to be. Now, we can' get them in or keep them coming back. We need to get back to those times and recreate what was lost. Not dwell.


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## cemab4y (Nov 20, 2017)

See for yourself:

http://www.msana.com/msastats_14to15.asp

Membership numbers are going DOWN, DOWN, DOWN.

Still there are many Masons who are convinced that there is no problem.


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## JJones (Nov 20, 2017)

jermy Bell said:


> Ok, I've heard this took a turn for the worst in 1717. How long ago was that ? Most of the older brothers I have talked to said their lodges was jumping in the 1960s through the 1980s. The lodge was the place to be. Now, we can' get them in or keep them coming back. We need to get back to those times and recreate what was lost. Not dwell.



Historically we've had our ups and downs but we've never had a swelling of membership like we did in the 50's and 60's. In the short term, this was probably pretty exciting but this caused a lot of long-term problems, such as the creation of an infrastructure that couldn't be supported by a smaller membership (some Grand Lodge buildings, for example) and a decrease in quality members that came with a rise in quantity. It's logical to assume that many of these men later rose to leadership positions in the organization as well.



> Membership numbers are going DOWN, DOWN, DOWN.
> 
> Still there are many Masons who are convinced that there is no problem.



Shrinking membership is to be expected and it can be reasonably predicted that it will keep declining until an equilibrium point has been reached. That being said, having fewer members isn't a problem on its own, it's the complications that arise from having fewer members which will (and is) causing problems.


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## Zack (Nov 21, 2017)

JJones said:


> Historically we've had our ups and downs but we've never had a swelling of membership like we did in the 50's and 60's. In the short term, this was probably pretty exciting but this caused a lot of long-term problems, such as the creation of an infrastructure that couldn't be supported by a smaller membership (some Grand Lodge buildings, for example) and a decrease in quality members that came with a rise in quantity. It's logical to assume that many of these men later rose to leadership positions in the organization as well.
> 
> 
> I've come to think of the 50's/60's era as not a good time for Masonry.  But hind sight is always 20-20.


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## cemab4y (Nov 21, 2017)

JJones said:


> Historically we've had our ups and downs but we've never had a swelling of membership like we did in the 50's and 60's. In the short term, this was probably pretty exciting but this caused a lot of long-term problems, such as the creation of an infrastructure that couldn't be supported by a smaller membership (some Grand Lodge buildings, for example) and a decrease in quality members that came with a rise in quantity. It's logical to assume that many of these men later rose to leadership positions in the organization as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Shrinking membership is to be expected and it can be reasonably predicted that it will keep declining until an equilibrium point has been reached. That being said, having fewer members isn't a problem on its own, it's the complications that arise from having fewer members which will (and is) causing problems.




I disagree, that shrinking membership is "to be expected". Why? The population of the USA, is much higher today, than it was in the 1950's. Even if Masonry had experienced a per-capita decrease in membership, we should have had an increase in membership. The problem is, that the "boom" of the late 50s/early 60's was the result of the WW2 generation entering Masonry. The "boomers" who were born from 1946-1956, did NOT participate in Freemasonry. The result is, we lost an entire generation.

The cause is not entirely lost. We could upgrade and modernize Freemasonry, (while still holding on to the ancient landmarks), and make our Craft more appealing to young men.

Still, too many of our membership are convinced that there is no real problem.


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## LK600 (Nov 21, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again, T.O. is the future of American Masonry I think. There is a lot of enthusiasm in T.O. lodge development than your run-of-the-mill BL. It was the best BL experience I've ever had and it is my ultimate goal to be a member of one of them. My dad and granddad's generation and version of BL is what is dying off. Masonry is likely going back to healthy numbers in a lot of ways. At least I hope so with the emergence of T.O./Euro lodges.



This ^.      Masonry is not dying... the previous iteration is (that which was altered and created by our father's and Grandfathers).  It... I hope, is going back to what it was and imo, T.O. style lodges are in that general direction. 

EA's don't come back because their not allowed to do or be apart of anything really. 

My Lodge is crowded every time an educational piece is provided.  I think attention to these two things would help wonders.


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## dfreybur (Nov 21, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> See for yourself:
> 
> http://www.msana.com/msastats_14to15.asp
> 
> ...



Because so many of us become 50 year members, the numbers to look at are the degrees not the members.  Degrees bottomed out nearly 2 decades ago and have been growing ever since.

The problem is resistance to invitations.  We depend on people who have no idea they will never be invited deciding to come to our meetings and asking for petitions.  Of course that keeps the flow of candidates low.


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## JJones (Nov 21, 2017)

Since we've been talking about membership numbers, I did some math based on the data provided by the MSANA to find out what percentage of the population of the USA were Freemasons. Can someone double check this for me?

In 1924 we had a population of 114,100,000 and about 3,077,161 Freemasons. If we say about half the population was male then that gives us a percentage of about 5.4%.

In 1959, which was our highest membership year based on the data given, we had 4,103,161 members. The US population was 177.8 million, so if we take about half that and calculate the membership percentage we get 4.6%.

The last year we have data on was 2015 so looking at the math of 1,117,781 members with a population of 320.9 million * .5 we get .69%.

*TLDR:* So we had a higher percentage of membership in 1924 but we have more members overall in 1959. As of 2015, about .7% of the population are Freemasons. 

Does anyone know where we can find membership statistics prior to 1924?



cemab4y said:


> The cause is not entirely lost. We could upgrade and modernize Freemasonry, (while still holding on to the ancient landmarks), and make our Craft more appealing to young men.



Can you give examples of how you would accomplish this?


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 21, 2017)

JJones said:


> Since we've been talking about membership numbers, I did some math based on the data provided by the MSANA to find out what percentage of the population of the USA were Freemasons. Can someone double check this for me?
> 
> In 1924 we had a population of 114,100,000 and about 3,077,161 Freemasons. If we say about half the population was male then that gives us a percentage of about 5.4%.
> 
> ...



Bro I get .0069% .....


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## Brother_Steve (Nov 21, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Bro I get .0069% .....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


Need to multiply the resulting ratio by 100 to convert to percent.


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 21, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> Need to multiply the resulting ratio by 100 to convert to percent


I figured I was missing a step....lol

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## billyjfootball (Nov 21, 2017)

Sorry about my topic.  I was going through a bit of depression.  I was upset because I wasn't in a good place mentally.  I'm just a bit lost.  My own brother was raised last year.  Since his raising, he's been to three meetings total.  He's in a funk because he feels like he goes to enough business meetings at his day job.

I started feeling that way, but I realize that we are different people.  I appreciate the history of our brotherhood.  When I walk into my lodge, I can feel the presence of all the good men who came before.  It inspires me to live life the best that I can.

I wish there was a magical solution to dwindling numbers, but I guess it makes us stronger.  Those that show up, want this!  




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## Zack (Nov 22, 2017)

cemab4y said:


> See for yourself:
> 
> http://www.msana.com/msastats_14to15.asp
> 
> ...



 As I have said before, I don't view it as a problem.  Maybe we can get back to basics and not a "service club" which wear aprons.
We have enough members,  too many lodges and not enough Masons.


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## Brother_Steve (Nov 22, 2017)

The solution is to have a reason to go to lodge. Give me a reason to leave my wife and 5 year old son to go to Lodge.

Yes, my 5 year old goes to bed an hour after I leave the house, but that is time I'm missing when I've already been at work for the day.

My wife can be grading school work, but we enjoy crashing on the couch at night.

For those living alone, it should not be a hard choice between staying home to watch XYZ TV show vs. Lodge. If this is a dilemma, you really need to reconsider what is happening during a meeting.


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 22, 2017)

I was in KY for 3 weeks.  I went to 3 different lodges.  The 1st was putting on a MM deg, but didn’t have enough brothers present so they did a “short form” degree.  I’d never heard of it before but basically after the deed was done the raising happened.  And then everything that is supposed to happen between those two events was presented to the brother in a slide show lecture.  
The other two were business meetings and lasted maybe 45 minutes not including dinner before hand.  
As brother Steve said above I went because I was in KY alone, and because KY doesn’t have a standardized ritual, they have 4.  So I wanted to see if the lodges were much different and they were.  Three different openings and closings and orders of business.

I did however enjoy the lantern lecture during the MM Deg.  I’ve seen MMs in 4 other jurisdictions and never heard of a lantern lecture


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## CLewey44 (Nov 22, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> I was in KY for 3 weeks.  I went to 3 different lodges.  The 1st was putting on a MM deg, but didn’t have enough brothers present so they did a “short form” degree.  I’d never heard of it before but basically after the deed was done the raising happened.  And then everything that is supposed to happen between those two events was presented to the brother in a slide show lecture.
> The other two were business meetings and lasted maybe 45 minutes not including dinner before hand.
> As brother Steve said above I went because I was in KY alone, and because KY doesn’t have a standardized ritual, they have 4.  So I wanted to see if the lodges were much different and they were.  Three different openings and closings and orders of business.
> 
> ...


Were you there during the High Council meeting in Louisville? Had a friend who went from Toronto.


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 22, 2017)

I don't believe so.  I was @ ft knox from 30oct-17nov

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## CLewey44 (Nov 22, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> I don't believe so.  I was @ ft knox from 30oct-17nov
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


Oh nice, it was 10th and 11th of Nov I believe. Some big downtown hotel there.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 22, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> Oh nice, it was 10th and 11th of Nov I believe. Some big downtown hotel there.


Brown Hotel


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## CLewey44 (Nov 23, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Brown Hotel


That's the one, Frater.


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 23, 2017)

Oh it was the SRCIF?  Man I wish I️ had known I would have gone


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## CLewey44 (Nov 23, 2017)

Yeah, they had their annual event there. It may be there every year but I'm not sure. I'm sure Bro. Glen could clarify that.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 23, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> That's the one, Frater.


I’m not a member.
When they pulled out of AMD week they’ve held at least two there. Good loc.


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## CLewey44 (Nov 23, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> I’m not a member.
> When they pulled out of AMD week they’ve held at least two there. Good loc.



My apologies, I for some reason thought you were.


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 23, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> I’m not a member.
> When they pulled out of AMD week they’ve held at least two there. Good loc.



Do u know why they pulled outta AMD?


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## Brother JC (Nov 23, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Do u know why they pulled outta AMD?


They pulled out of the week of festivities, not the organization (it is not part of any other group). Several groups have done that, probably because there’s too dang much going on that week.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 23, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> They pulled out of the week of festivities, not the organization (it is not part of any other group). Several groups have done that, probably because there’s too dang much going on that week.


What other groups have pulled out?


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## Glen Cook (Nov 23, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Do u know why they pulled outta AMD?


Personal piques and quarrels.


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## Blake Bowden (Nov 24, 2017)

Some lodges need to fail. I remember a few years ago attending lodge and the upstairs area was in such disrepair, that a MM lodge was opened around the dinner table on the first floor. Since that time the Lodge has demised.


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## Brother JC (Nov 24, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> What other groups have pulled out?


Masonic Society has gotten away from it. No one else I know of.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 24, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> Masonic Society has gotten away from it. No one else I know of.


Not to my knowledge.  We are scheduled to have our 11th annual dinner on the Friday.  See http://www.yorkrite.com/MasonicWeek/#ms

We've actually added a group.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Nov 24, 2017)

Albus Dumbledore said:
			
		

> In my opinion, words are our most inexhaustible source of magic


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## Center (Nov 27, 2017)

I think BL degrees have a lot of amazing insights, that can maintain a member busy for a lifetime.
Freemasonry is not dogmatic, nobody can tell you that the number 5 in the FC has a meaning instead of another, this is really good because stimulates research and the candidate look into himself.

The people that wrote the first tree rituals were special persons. I do not not know if all the mysteries are closed there or not. You will find in the literature a lot of different hunches regarding this and against this position.  Originally is said that the Royal Arch was incorporated inside the degree of MM, and also is said that the MM was not present. I do not know, and possibly nobody knows the truth about the origins, but the rituals remain, and they are one of the most sublime things I ever read.


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## dpk Shah (Dec 5, 2017)

billyjfootball said:


> I started feeling that way, but I realize that we are different people.  I appreciate the history of our brotherhood.  When I walk into my lodge, I can feel the presence of all the good men who came before.  It inspires me to live life the best that I can



Brother, when I am in Lodge, I leave everything else at the door, I am in 'my own world'. 

As for dwindling numbers, I visited a Lodge 97 kms away in the countryside, was an hour and 20 minutes drive from where I live. The WM was so happy that he had a visitor from the city, that too an unaccompanied EA. When he found out I could not stay for the festive board as I had to rush back to city for night shift, he 'gifted' me with the transcript of the lecture that was presented. It is moments like this that motivate me to visit whenever I can.


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## Ripcord22A (Dec 5, 2017)

dpk Shah said:


> Brother, when I am in Lodge, I leave everything else at the door, I am in 'my own world'.
> 
> As for dwindling numbers, I visited a Lodge 97 kms away in the countryside, was an hour and 20 minutes drive from where I live. The WM was so happy that he had a visitor from the city, that too an unaccompanied EA. When he found out I could not stay for the festive board as I had to rush back to city for night shift, he 'gifted' me with the transcript of the lecture that was presented. It is moments like this that motivate me to visit whenever I can.



Where do you live and what GL are you under?  I’ve never heard of EAs being able to visit alone 


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Glen Cook (Dec 5, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Where do you live and what GL are you under?  I’ve never heard of EAs being able to visit alone
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


Horning in: UT can


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## Ripcord22A (Dec 5, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Horning in: UT can



Really?  That’s interesting.....how are they tried?  In my jurisdictions EAs and FCs can only visit alone if there is a member of that lodge that can vouch for them


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## Elexir (Dec 5, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Where do you live and what GL are you under?  I’ve never heard of EAs being able to visit alone
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app



Chiming in: An EA from GL of Sweden can visit lodges in Sweden without anyone vouching for them (did that myself a few times).


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## Ripcord22A (Dec 5, 2017)

Elexir said:


> Chiming in: An EA from GL of Sweden can visit lodges in Sweden without anyone vouching for them (did that myself a few times).



Well there ya go.  How do you prove urself a mason as an EA?  


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Elexir (Dec 5, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Well there ya go.  How do you prove urself a mason as an EA?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app



Ive never been tried but some knowledge from the EA degree is good to have. 
The thing is that we are full members from our first degree so we have the right to travel between lodges prior to becoming MM. Its pretty good considering that it takes months between EA and FC so it could get a little boring if you where confined to only one lodge.


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## Bloke (Dec 5, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Where do you live and what GL are you under?  I’ve never heard of EAs being able to visit alone
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


Here an EA can visit alone. It's rare, but has happened. We normally recommend taking someone who can vouch for your as an EA, but it is not a requirement.


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## Ripcord22A (Dec 5, 2017)

Elexir said:


> Ive never been tried but some knowledge from the EA degree is good to have.
> The thing is that we are full members from our first degree so we have the right to travel between lodges prior to becoming MM. Its pretty good considering that it takes months between EA and FC so it could get a little boring if you where confined to only one lodge.



So you just walked right in?


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## Elexir (Dec 6, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> So you just walked right in?



Yes.
Might have been harder if I didnt have my regalia (the lodges own all regalia and there are no private sellers, we get what we need to work).
Funny enough it was as a MM I almost got thrown out.


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## dfreybur (Dec 6, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> How do you prove urself a mason as an EA?



In Texas EAs are given a temporary "dues card" to use should they wish to attend other lodges.  They are encouraged to attend in their district.  After the FC degree their card is swapped with one marking them as an FC.  The cards are color coded.

It's easy enough to offer to exchange what was learned at the altar during each degree.  Since the "dues card" only works within the jurisdiction there will be no variations of detail.


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## dpk Shah (Dec 6, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Where do you live and what GL are you under?  I’ve never heard of EAs being able to visit alone



Brother i'm from Adelaide, Australia. Under Grand Lodge of South Australia & Northern Territory.


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## Symthrell (Dec 7, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> In Texas EAs are given a temporary "dues card" to use should they wish to attend other lodges.  They are encouraged to attend in their district.  After the FC degree their card is swapped with one marking them as an FC.  The cards are color coded.
> 
> It's easy enough to offer to exchange what was learned at the altar during each degree.  Since the "dues card" only works within the jurisdiction there will be no variations of detail.



Wish my state had that, it would have made my time as both an EA and FC a bit more interesting. I feel like that would have broadened the horizon a little.


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## dpk Shah (Dec 8, 2017)

Symthrell said:


> Wish my state had that, it would have made my time as both an EA and FC a bit more interesting. I feel like that would have broadened the horizon a little.



It would definitely have Brother. Visiting different Lodges has most definitely broaden my horizons.


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## Bro. TJ Garrison (Dec 22, 2017)

Blake Bowden said:


> Some lodges need to fail. I remember a few years ago attending lodge and the upstairs area was in such disrepair, that a MM lodge was opened around the dinner table on the first floor. Since that time the Lodge has demised.


You're kidding. A dinner table. What was so wrong upstairs.


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## David612 (Dec 22, 2017)

I travel alone and I’m an EA, the chances of me not knowing someone there is thin as I made a point of getting to know the DGIW for our region and as he is almost asuradly at every meeting he could vouch for me if need be, I’ve been tested in the usual manner and have had brothers I’ve known simply give their word at the west gate on my behalf.


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## Bloke (Dec 22, 2017)

Bro. TJ Garrison said:


> You're kidding. A dinner table. What was so wrong upstairs.


No dinner ?


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## dfreybur (Dec 22, 2017)

Bro. TJ Garrison said:


> You're kidding. A dinner table. What was so wrong upstairs.



Grand lodge Masonry was founded at the dinner table.  Be cautious about not reading history then disapproving of something based on that something being our actual foundation.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 22, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> Grand lodge Masonry was founded at the dinner table.  Be cautious about not reading history then disapproving of something based on that something being our actual foundation.


I held our Mark Lodge at a dinner table last night.  Lamb stew was the favorite dish.


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## Brother JC (Dec 22, 2017)

Bro. TJ Garrison said:


> You're kidding. A dinner table.


Ever heard of a Table Lodge? In its truest form it is a Tyled event with all the elements of Lodge.
Nothing to kid about.


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## Bloke (Dec 22, 2017)

As others have mentioned in their replies, every year we try to open at least once at a Table Lodge, often bringing several lodges together for the event.


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## David612 (Dec 23, 2017)

Bloke said:


> As others have mentioned in their replies, every year we try to open at least once at a Table Lodge, often bringing several lodges together for the event.


Can’t say I’ve seen a table lodge and don’t think it’s done down my way... I’ll ask..


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## Bloke (Dec 23, 2017)

David612 said:


> Can’t say I’ve seen a table lodge and don’t think it’s done down my way... I’ll ask..


It will be ... somewhere... we dont open under a warrant - so don't ask GL about a dispensation... we would if we were doing a degree though...


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## dfreybur (Dec 24, 2017)

David612 said:


> Can’t say I’ve seen a table lodge and don’t think it’s done down my way... I’ll ask..



If your lodge or district does not do Table Lodge events, you definitely want to volunteer to organize the catering to have one,.

If your jurisdiction does not publish an authorized ritual for Table Lodge, it is time to submit legislation to get one authorized.  Ten minutes of web search will show at least two popular versions.  The one with the talks and the one with the toasts.  The talks are how our lectures originally evolved.


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## Ripcord22A (Dec 24, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> Ever heard of a Table Lodge? In its truest form it is a Tyled event with all the elements of Lodge.
> Nothing to kid about.


The point is being missed here. .....they weren't opening for a table lodge they were opening at a table because the lodge room wasn't properly maintained. 

Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Bloke (Dec 24, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> The point is being missed here. .....they weren't opening for a table lodge they were opening at a table because the lodge room wasn't properly maintained.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


I understand - but always make an omelette out of broken eggs


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## Bloke (Dec 24, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> ....If your jurisdiction does not publish an authorized ritual for Table Lodge, it is time to submit legislation to get one authorized.  Ten minutes of web search will show at least two popular versions.  The one with the talks and the one with the toasts.  The talks are how our lectures originally evolved.



Bah  ! - better to ask for forgiveness than permission ! You can run it as a "masonic dinner" rather than a lodge meeting.... and off site if your GL does not allow booze.. can't see how we need to ask permission to have a dinner


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## dfreybur (Dec 25, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Bah  ! - better to ask for forgiveness than permission ! You can run it as a "masonic dinner" rather than a lodge meeting.... and off site if your GL does not allow booze.. can't see how we need to ask permission to have a dinner



That's called a "festive board".  Not tiled so fewer rules apply.  Festive board is a wonderful experience in and of itself.

Arguably the Shrine exists because some US jurisdictions went dry.


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## Scoops (Dec 25, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> That's called a "festive board".  Not tiled so fewer rules apply.  Festive board is a wonderful experience in and of itself.
> 
> Arguably the Shrine exists because some US jurisdictions went dry.


As I've said in another thread, I consider our festive board to be a vital part of my Masonry. Although, as a UGLE mason, we have a festive board after every meeting so I'm a little spoiled!

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## David612 (Dec 25, 2017)

I think people are a bit liberal on the use of “vital”.
The unique attributes of freemasonry are not found at the festive board, don’t get me wrong, I love seeing my brothers and sharing a meal but the vital part of freemasonry happens in the lodge room, not the dining room.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 25, 2017)

David612 said:


> Can’t say I’ve seen a table lodge and don’t think it’s done down my way... I’ll ask..


I've been present for only one.


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## David612 (Dec 25, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> I've been present for only one.


It’s an interesting idea none the less, that said I’d rather a short meal and a great lodge session, masonry and toasts tend to make meals long.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 26, 2017)

David612 said:


> I think people are a bit liberal on the use of “vital”.
> The unique attributes of freemasonry are not found at the festive board, don’t get me wrong, I love seeing my brothers and sharing a meal but the vital part of freemasonry happens in the lodge room, not the dining room.


I understand your view, but it is only a view. Making absolute declarations is parlous, particularly for a new Mason


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## Elexir (Dec 26, 2017)

David612 said:


> I think people are a bit liberal on the use of “vital”.
> The unique attributes of freemasonry are not found at the festive board, don’t get me wrong, I love seeing my brothers and sharing a meal but the vital part of freemasonry happens in the lodge room, not the dining room.



I disagree, during the meal you will talk and listen to diffrent people of diffrent ages, of diffrent occupation and diffrent experiences.


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## David612 (Dec 26, 2017)

Elexir said:


> I disagree, during the meal you will talk and listen to diffrent people of diffrent ages, of diffrent occupation and diffrent experiences.


True, but the same can be said of any social club which levels masonry among the likes of Lyons or rotary,which while perfectly noble lack the unique character of Freemasonry.


Glen Cook said:


> I understand your view, but it is only a view. Making absolute declarations is parlous, particularly for a new Mason


As per the above. While I love chatting with diverse gents of good character the same can be achieved though other organisations, the vitality is within the lodge.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 26, 2017)

David612 said:


> True, but the same can be said of any social club which levels masonry among the likes of Lyons or rotary,which while perfectly noble lack the unique character of Freemasonry.
> 
> As per the above. While I love chatting with diverse gents of good character the same can be achieved though other organisations, the vitality is within the lodge.


And your belief is fine, if stated as a belief.  The issue is making absolute declarations is the issue. 

I would also note there are many other initiatory fraternities. Lions aren’t one of them.


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## David612 (Dec 26, 2017)

Deleted due to aimless line of discussion, wading in the shallows.


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## Bloke (Dec 26, 2017)

David612 said:


> True, but the same can be said of any social club which levels masonry among the likes of Lyons or rotary,which while perfectly noble lack the unique character of Freemasonry.
> 
> As per the above. While I love chatting with diverse gents of good character the same can be achieved though other organisations, the vitality is within the lodge.



The unique character of Freemasonry is very evident in the lodgeroom, but where it really becomes powerful and important, is outside the lodge room.

I've been to those dinners - nothing is like a masonic dinner and brothers in fellowship.


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## Bloke (Dec 26, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> That's called a "festive board".  Not tiled so fewer rules apply.  Festive board is a wonderful experience in and of itself.
> 
> Arguably the Shrine exists because some US jurisdictions went dry.


We would use the "festive board" as a term being a dinner following (or perhaps even before) a lodge meeting. More commonly here, we call it "The South"


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 26, 2017)

Elexir said:


> during the meal you will talk and listen to diffrent people of diffrent ages, of diffrent occupation and diffrent experiences.





Bloke said:


> I've been to those dinners - nothing is like a masonic dinner and brothers in fellowship.


Agreed.


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## dfreybur (Dec 26, 2017)

David612 said:


> I think people are a bit liberal on the use of “vital”.



As well as deciding what is and isn't vital.  The way Masonry becomes all things to the regularly attending members is to supply them what they consider vital, but that isn't vital to other regularly attending members.



> The unique attributes of freemasonry are not found at the festive board, don’t get me wrong, I love seeing my brothers and sharing a meal but the vital part of freemasonry happens in the lodge room, not the dining room.



The term "festive board" refers to a meal that is not in a tiled meeting.  As such it's optional to some but not to all.  I've been to meetings that didn't include a meal.  I've visited lodges that didn't have meals.  They aren't the successful lodges.  I've also been to lodges that had never heard the term "festive board" but had meals anyways.  There are members who attend the meal then leave.

But remember the other parts of this thread when discussing the dining room.  Grand lodge Masonry was founded at Table Lodge.  In a dining room.  At a tiled meeting.  For well over a century degrees were conducted around the dining room tables.  You may not have experienced a tiled meal, but that's an impoverishment of your jurisdiction and of your experiences.  Thinking that Table Lodge is not vital, when it was our founding event, is like thinking your lodge is the only lodge in the world.


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## dpk Shah (Dec 26, 2017)

Bloke said:


> I've been to those dinners - nothing is like a masonic dinner and brothers in fellowship.



Festive boards ....... How good and pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity.


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## David612 (Dec 26, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> As well as deciding what is and isn't vital.  The way Masonry becomes all things to the regularly attending members is to supply them what they consider vital, but that isn't vital to other regularly attending members.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Our meals here are never tiled, as a result the structure is;
-light snacks and drinks
-meeting
-dinner
That said I would need to read up on the ritual for our table lodges however having brothers chit chating and eating through through degrees and other work dosent sound ideal.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Dec 28, 2017)

David612 said:


> I think people are a bit liberal on the use of “vital”.
> The unique attributes of freemasonry are not found at the festive board, don’t get me wrong, I love seeing my brothers and sharing a meal but the vital part of freemasonry happens in the lodge room, not the dining room.


I love to tell the story of the time I decided to learn to juggle.  I studied books on juggling technique, and this learning was vital.  Then I spent time practicing tossing things in the air and catching them, and this learning was vital.  In this thread I feel like I reading a debate over whether the reading or the practicing is more vital.


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## David612 (Dec 28, 2017)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> I love to tell the story of the time I decided to learn to juggle.  I studied books on juggling technique, and this learning was vital.  Then I spent time practicing tossing things in the air and catching them, and this learning was vital.  In this thread I feel like I reading a debate over whether the reading or the practicing is more vital.


Point taken but my idea of vitality in this context is the work that makes freemasonry unique, socialising and charitity work may be a vital part of some brothers experience but what makes Freemasonry unique?


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## Glen Cook (Dec 28, 2017)

David612 said:


> Point taken but my idea of vitality in this context is the work that makes freemasonry unique, socialising and charitity work may be a vital part of some brothers experience but what makes Freemasonry unique?


It’s age and predominance.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 29, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> It’s age and predominance.


Excellent answer!


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