# Grand Lodges in Italy



## RhushidaK (May 30, 2017)

Brethren, why is the situation in Italy complicated with two different regular Grand lodges? Many Grand Lodges recognize Grande Oriente d'Italia while others like UGLE recognize Regular Grand Lodge of Italy.
Why don't the regular Grand Lodges come together?


----------



## Bloke (May 30, 2017)

RhushidaK said:


> Brethren, why is the situation in Italy complicated with two different regular Grand lodges? Many Grand Lodges recognize Grande Oriente d'Italia while others like UGLE recognize Regular Grand Lodge of Italy.
> Why don't the regular Grand Lodges come together?


Because "regular" is subjective...


----------



## Glen Cook (May 30, 2017)

Are you asking why we don't all recognize the same Italian GL, or why the two Italian obediences don't merge?


----------



## Ripcord22A (May 30, 2017)

I think he's asking both of those.

Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## RhushidaK (May 31, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> I think he's asking both of those.



Indeed both the questions. Seems kind of redundant to have two different Grand Lodges, both recognized by Regular Grand Lodges, but not recognizing each other, or even merging.


----------



## Glen Cook (Jun 1, 2017)

RhushidaK said:


> Indeed both the questions. Seems kind of redundant to have two different Grand Lodges, both recognized by Regular Grand Lodges, but not recognizing each other, or even merging.


Yet, any number of countries have three or even four GLs in amity. I see you are India. You have three GLs there. Is that not redundant?  

As to why they don't merge, one might suspect it is the age old problem of our species: pride.


----------



## RhushidaK (Jun 1, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Yet, any number of countries have three or even four GLs in amity. I see you are India. You have three GLs there. Is that not redundant?



Different jurisdictions and constituencies is one thing. All the *four GLs here in India recognize each other and respect each other's jurisdiction. That in Italy is not jurisdictional differences. It's a competition.



Glen Cook said:


> As to why they don't merge, one might suspect it is the age old problem of our species: pride.



Yes sadly that is the problem. Hopefully they let go of their personal pride, and look to the betterment of Freemasonry.


----------



## Glen Cook (Jun 1, 2017)

RhushidaK said:


> Different jurisdictions and constituencies is one thing. All the *four GLs here in India recognize each other and respect each other's jurisdiction. That in Italy is not jurisdictional differences. It's a competition.
> 
> .



I agree it is inappropriate competition, but your point was more than one GL is redundant. 

Thanks for the correction on the number. 

I've attended your GL Communication. Good time.


----------



## RhushidaK (Jun 1, 2017)

No brother. Not that more than one GL is redundant. I meant multiple GLs that are considered regular to not be in amity with each other. Much like the Antients and Moderns.


----------



## Glen Cook (Jun 1, 2017)

RhushidaK said:


> No brother. Not that more than one GL is redundant. I meant multiple GLs that are considered regular to not be in amity with each other. Much like the Antients and Moderns.


Got it. I glommed on to the use of the word redundant. Yet, there are other examples: 
the two GLs in Paraguay. 
nine of the PHA  jurisdictions in the US. 
Brazil
Some would creditably suggest Bulgaria as well as GLdF/GLNF. Certainly MN was convinced of the latter. 
Some wonder why PHO and PHA don't merge, resolving legitimacy of origin issues for PHO who otherwise appear to be regular in practice. 

We have met the enemy, and he is us (apologies to Pogo).


----------



## Elexir (Jun 1, 2017)

Mergins are not sure to make things easier. 
In Denmark the Danish order of Freemasonry have two other GLs under Them and just a few years ago they had a bit of internal troubles.


----------



## MarkR (Jun 2, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> ...as well as GLdF/GLNF. Certainly MN was convinced of the latter.


And boy, was that a mess.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Jun 2, 2017)

More than one regular GL claiming the same territory... interesting!


----------



## Glen Cook (Jun 3, 2017)

MarkR said:


> And boy, was that a mess.


Sorry.  I shall put the salt away.


----------



## Ripcord22A (Jun 3, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Sorry.  I shall put the salt away.


This is funny as it could be taken that you are slaty about the situation and simultaneously rubbing salt in his wound!....lol

Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## Brother JC (Jun 3, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> More than one regular GL claiming the same territory... interesting!



And therein lies the rub... in locations where multiple GLs work in harmony there is no "claiming of territory," merely different Brothers working in similar manners to achieve similar goals. When it turns into a turf war no one wins.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Jun 3, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> When it turns into a turf war no one wins.


Sounds correct.


----------



## Bloke (Jun 3, 2017)

(Is this thread amusing to anyone as it is to me; talking about duplication of GLs in the same place, them not recognizing each other etc, where for decades the same thing happened in almost every state of the USA and places like France ?)


----------



## Warrior1256 (Jun 3, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Is this thread amusing to anyone as it is to me;


Yeah, I am being entertained by it and learning a few things, lol.


----------



## Brother JC (Jun 3, 2017)

I don't find it amusing, I find it heartbreaking that these divisions have existed in the past and the present, and, sadly, will continue to exist for far too long in the future.


----------



## Bloke (Jun 3, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> I don't find it amusing, I find it heartbreaking that these divisions have existed in the past and the present, and, sadly, will continue to exist for far too long in the future.


Good point bro, but I was kinda thinking about the focus being Italy (title of thread).

That said, there is some good reasons not to recognize some GLs. But the criteria for acting that way should not be skin colour, religion or  Masonic politics or dummy spits. I'd love to visit LDH.... but I would not let them into my Lodge, and I can't have it my own way. Some irregular and unrecognized GLs like LDH, OWF and HFoAF should be respected, but that does not mean they'll ever conform to our GLs standard of regularity... which is fine.

The world does not have to be a homogeneous place, heaven forbid!

I still find it amusing we're focusing on Italy in this broad topic, esp when you look back at "Italian" Grand Lodges, esp in the context of the Revolution and Wars of the Papal States. Issues in Italy are not just the type of P3, but predate Giuseppe Garibaldi and his GM. I've only done a bit of reading on it, but it's fascinating


----------



## Warrior1256 (Jun 4, 2017)

Bloke said:


> there is some good reasons not to recognize some GLs. But the criteria for acting that way should not be skin colour, religion or Masonic politics or dummy spits.


Agreed!


Bloke said:


> Some irregular and unrecognized GLs like LDH, OWF and HFoAF should be respected, but that does not mean they'll ever conform to our GLs standard of regularity... which is fine.


Again agreed.


Bloke said:


> I still find it amusing we're focusing on Italy in this broad topic, esp when you look back at "Italian" Grand Lodges, esp in the context of the Revolution and Wars of the Papal States.


Yep!


----------



## RhushidaK (Jun 8, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Good point bro, but I was kinda thinking about the focus being Italy (title of thread).



Well the focus was on Italy coz I just visited it last week and was completely lost which Grand Lodge to contact. That set other wheel in motion in my head as to their fights



Bloke said:


> I still find it amusing we're focusing on Italy in this broad topic, esp when you look back at "Italian" Grand Lodges, esp in the context of the Revolution and Wars of the Papal States. Issues in Italy are not just the type of P3, but predate Giuseppe Garibaldi and his GM. I've only done a bit of reading on it, but it's fascinating



True Bro. It's a really broad topic. But the past is the past; something to study rather than keep fighting upon. Which I found in Italy. Not sure if there are other countries where such situations still exist.


----------



## Bloke (Jun 8, 2017)

RhushidaK said:


> ... Not sure if there are other countries where such situations still exist.



For sure there is !


----------



## Glen Cook (Jun 8, 2017)

RhushidaK said:


> ?..
> 
> True Bro. It's a really broad topic. But the past is the past; something to study rather than keep fighting upon. Which I found in Italy. Not sure if there are other countries where such situations still exist.


↑
the two GLs in Paraguay. 
nine of the PHA jurisdictions in the US. 
Brazil
Some would creditably suggest Bulgaria as well as GLdF/GLNF. Certainly MN was convinced of the latter. 
Some wonder why PHO and PHA don't merge, resolving legitimacy of origin issues for PHO who otherwise appear to be regular in practice.


----------



## Ripcord22A (Jun 8, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> ↑
> the two GLs in Paraguay.
> nine of the PHA jurisdictions in the US.
> Brazil
> ...



I dont know anything about these other then PHA and the GLNF/GLdF...but of those i dont think PHA fits what hes referring to.  I dont think, and Bro Glenn you are much more versed in these situations then I so correct me if Im wrong, but the OP appears to be talking about fighting between the 2 GLs about who is more legitimate and deserves to be THE GL.  
I dont believe that to be the case with those 9 US Jurisdictions.  They just dont recognize eachother at the GL level and bothsides like it that way.  I dont think either side questions the others ability to exist and work.  I mean I've spoken with men from those jurisdictions who say they approached one or the others lodges and was directed to the other.  If they didnt believe that the other had a right to exist wouldn't they not do that and keep all the new members for themselves?

Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## Luigi Visentin (Aug 2, 2017)

The situation in Italy is pretty complicated. A survey has found more than 80 (eighty) different associations claiming to be "masonic". Usually Freemasonry in Italy refers to three entities: the Grande Oriente d'Italia, the oldest (1805) and bigger (about 23,000 brothers), which is also my Grand Lodge, and that is not recognized by United Grand Lodge of England, which recognize the second biggest entity, the Gran Loggia Regolare d'Italia. The third is the Gran Loggia d'Italia degli ALAM, born in 1910, which however is in serious internal difficulties. 
There are some efforts to try to put together the two biggest Lodges but there is a long story of "misunderstandings" that should be solved before making the final step. Hopefully there are some glimmers of light for the future.
If you do not know who to contact, better that you check which Lodge is recognized by yours Grand Lodge before. Then it is pretty easy as even if we have not big "masonic houses" the addresses of the Lodges can be found on the Grand Lodges websites.

P.s.: the name of the lodge of the scandal of the '80 is P2 from "Propaganda 2", not P3 (P3 and P4 are an inventions of journalists)


----------



## Center (Aug 29, 2017)

Well the choice of GM Di Bernardo  to move away from the French obedience and to  found a new one in 1993 is not directly linked of the well known `propaganda 2` ,  the reasons are really complex and in some ways questionable, the most known one is the so called 'Cordova Inquiry` and his relationship with some members inside the GOI.  Unfortunately Italy went trough another  famous schism long time before, the split between 'Palazzo Giustiniani` and `Piazza del Gesu` in 1908 regarding different views inside the Grand Orient regarding the teaching of the religion inside the elementary schools. The same Di Bernardo left the founded GLRI to found the Academy of the Dignity Order in 2002.   There are  much more considerations to do, but what matters is that the historic tradition of the Freemasonry in Italy is really solid, and there are in every part of the world men of great quality that witness with their dignity the unchangeable precepts of Masonry as landmark of purity, work and freedom, indiscriminately from which lodge they belong, and in accordance with the principles to be a Free Mason.


----------



## vinceatwork (Feb 6, 2018)

With reference to Luigi Visentin’s post, I have found a book written by Bro. Dino Arrigo, 'Nuovi Fratelli' (New Brothers), covering the separation of a number of Mason from the Grand Orient d’ Italia, to found the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy in 1993.

This book can be found here:

https://www.libroco.it/english/dl/D...alle-inchieste-P3-e-P4/cw758322578200513.html

With reference to Bloke’s post, “there is some good reasons not to recognize some GLs,” It may be of interest to all the movement among some brethren, worldwide, to build bridges, to "*unite people who otherwise would have stayed at perpetual distance."*  You can find some information on this movement here: http://www.freemasonryresearchforumqsa.com/the-timehascome-to-speak.php


----------



## Center (Feb 7, 2018)

I suggest you before to read the book Fratelli D'Italia -Pinotti -BUR  is really critical, but well documented and represents a situation in Italy that is quite peculiar. Is really complex the situation of the freemasonry in Italy, as it is quite particular  also the Italian situation in general, much more than the easy cliche', Machiavelli's country. There are several points of the book one could not like, not agree, but in general he interviewed past grand masters, and consulted official reports indicating every single source. Still Freemasonry, is a great thing for me, even if I am not a regular brother.  The book shows with rational arguments why the Italian situation is different, he wrote also  book about the Opus day.  The only thing I do not like is that avoid to point out any positive side. As it has an approach as a journalist that try to force his own assumptions but his my opinion. Much more scientific than the books of Gioiele Magaldi, that have a clear complottist approach( in my opinion), although he claim to be a brother.


----------



## vinceatwork (Feb 7, 2018)

Sure thing, Center.  I don’t care about political regularity or otherwise, and I subscribe to Bro. Alain de Keghel’s desire to "*unite people who otherwise would have stayed at perpetual distance."* To tear down barriers, and to build bridges of light. Just recently MW Bro. Fabio Fenzi, Grand Master of the GLRI, has appointed a Catholic priest as Grand Chaplain, in a gesture of reconciliation with the Roman Catholic Church.  Bro Fenzi is sending me the book “Nuovi Fratelli” shortly, and perhaps I will be able to correspond with its author, Bro. Dino Arrigo.  I will keep you posted.


----------



## Bloke (Feb 7, 2018)

vinceatwork said:


> ....Just recently MW Bro. Fabio Fenzi, Grand Master of the GLRI, has appointed a Catholic priest as Grand Chaplain, in a gesture of reconciliation with the Roman Catholic Church.  Bro Fenzi is sending me the book “Nuovi Fratelli” shortly, and perhaps I will be able to correspond with its author, Bro. Dino Arrigo.  I will keep you posted.


That sounds a bit strange. Is he a Roman Catholic Priest or from another "Catholic Church" which is not in full communion with Rome, or more rightly, the Holy See ?

I would be very surprised to hear a RC Priest is a Grand Officer, unless he's kept his membership quiet..


----------



## Elexir (Feb 7, 2018)

vinceatwork said:


> Sure thing, Center.  I don’t care about political regularity or otherwise, and I subscribe to Bro. Alain de Keghel’s desire to "*unite people who otherwise would have stayed at perpetual distance."* To tear down barriers, and to build bridges of light. Just recently MW Bro. Fabio Fenzi, Grand Master of the GLRI, has appointed a Catholic priest as Grand Chaplain, in a gesture of reconciliation with the Roman Catholic Church.  Bro Fenzi is sending me the book “Nuovi Fratelli” shortly, and perhaps I will be able to correspond with its author, Bro. Dino Arrigo.  I will keep you posted.



Considering that one of the reasons pope Francis started the whole affair against the Knights of Malta was to rid them of freemasons it might be counter-productive. The current pope has problems with their own chilvaric orders as well as the political freemasonry that does exist so he will not mend the situation.


----------



## Center (Feb 8, 2018)

Bloke said:


> That sounds a bit strange. Is he a Roman Catholic Priest or from another "Catholic Church" which is not in full communion with Rome, or more rightly, the Holy See ?
> 
> I would be very surprised to hear a RC Priest is a Grand Officer, unless he's kept his membership quiet..


I recommend you another book from the same author I quoted, he explains the relationship between the Vatican and the Italian Freemasonry, mainly outside any simplicistic chilvaric order consideration,  possibly if you are really interested can scan it digitally (or buy the ebook) and use google translate scan function, is from Pinotti,
If you are interested to a particular topic I can do a 5 minutes translation.

He speaks also about the new Pope, and there are also some unpublished letters. But he still is very critical and I do not like his approach for this reason. As journalist he does not say nothing directly, he just compose the facts highlighting the stories in a certain order.  Despite all, is worth a reading because of his scientific approach.


----------



## Bloke (Feb 8, 2018)

Center said:


> I recommend you another book from the same author I quoted, he explains the relationship between the Vatican and the Italian Freemasonry, mainly outside any simplicistic chilvaric order consideration,  possibly if you are really interested can scan it digitally (or buy the ebook) and use google translate scan function, is from Pinotti,
> If you are interested to a particular topic I can do a 5 minutes translation.
> 
> He speaks also about the new Pope, and there are also some unpublished letters. But he still is very critical and I do not like his approach for this reason. As journalist he does not say nothing directly, he just compose the facts highlighting the stories in a certain order.  Despite all, is worth a reading because of his scientific approach.


I would be interested and would love to take you up on that offer.
S&F
Bloke


----------



## vinceatwork (Feb 8, 2018)

Bloke said:


> That sounds a bit strange. Is he a Roman Catholic Priest or from another "Catholic Church" which is not in full communion with Rome, or more rightly, the Holy See ?
> 
> I would be very surprised to hear a RC Priest is a Grand Officer, unless he's kept his membership quiet..



As far as I know, there is only ONE Roman Catholic Church, and the appointed priest can only be of that Church.  See for yourself:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...s_chaplain_claims_openness_to_catholic_church


----------



## Bloke (Feb 8, 2018)

vinceatwork said:


> As far as I know, there is only ONE Roman Catholic Church, and the appointed priest can only be of that Church.  See for yourself:
> https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...s_chaplain_claims_openness_to_catholic_church


Thank you- but I note that's from 2005, however that's still post Cardinal Ratzinger's Declaration on Masonic Associations (Quaesitum est)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_on_Masonic_Associations 

I note in the article you supply, "During his address announcing the appointment of the priest, whom he did not identify by name,"..

Of course Freemasonry would be willing to appoint any worthy Brother to the post of "Chaplain", mind you, there might be some semantics here in was he "installed" or did he have some other role ? But lets assume "installed" but its still an assumption.

I agree, there is only one  Roman Catholic Church, but there are lots of Catholic Churches - many of which are in communion with the Holy See, but many are not like Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East, or Catholic Diocese of the Old Catholics in Germany, are not and neither of which are headed by the Pope. I met a "Catholic Priest" in Freemasonry once - the fact he had a wife kinda made me appreciate the phrase "Catholic Church" has a broader meaning for many beyond the RCC. You need to be careful because "Catholic" and "Catholic Church" can be used in broader sense beyond the RCC

From what I understand, if you want to find Catholic Clergy as prominent Freemasons - look to the history of Freemasonry in  South America - its on my list to research one day...


----------



## Center (Feb 9, 2018)

Bloke said:


> I would be interested and would love to take you up on that offer.
> S&F
> Bloke


sure,  the first chapter starts on why a Jesuit Pope? will copy paste in google the first pages
to start


----------



## Center (Feb 9, 2018)

for Bloke,
this is the way the book starts,
I ommitted the notes that remand to the sources

Masonic lodges, Jesuits and other powers in struggle

the election of a Jesuit, Father Jorge
mario bergoglio, at the throne of Peter is an epoch-making fact.
the victory in conclave of the first Jesuit pope in history is
occurred after a gigantic battle of power, whose proportions have not yet been understood.
the pendulum of history yes
is moved, making a very wide oscillation, which changes the
balance of the oldest institution in the world. After a
riodo long 35 years, started in 1978 with the ascent to the throne of
Pope Wojtyla continued without interruption with the
Ratzinger's papacy, everything seems to change, bringing a wind
new in the dark rooms of the curia but also in the community
world Catholicism and in the wider theater of geopolitics, of the
which the Vatican is a very important actor.
what a profound meaning the Jesuit's ascent has
bergoglio at the papal throne? What consequences will be produced by one
a turn that was greeted with joy by the faithful, but which has been
lutated too superficially?
Which forces have reversed the apparently written outcome
of a conclave that seemed to assign the papacy to many figures
distant from that of bergoglio and even antagonists, as in
case of the cardinal angel scola, exponent of
communion e
liberation?

public opinion has begun to perceive that behind the
internal conflict, unprecedented, there is much more: a struggle between
factions that are competing for the very future of the
church of
Rome.
there is the presence of an obscure drawing, of a very "level"
higher comparison: and the nodes to be dissolved, to understand how much
it happens, they are many.
More than one clue emerged.
in the course of the work of the
missionary cardinals, the only one authorized to investigate the
involved in the burning escape of papal documents, a
rola has made even the leaves of the well-groomed startle and quiver
Vatican gardens: "masonry".
After the start of the criminal investigation that led to the arrest
of Paolo Gabriele, the aide of the room of
blessed XVi, accused of being "the crow", pope
ratzinger, today "emeritus", has
the three cardinals of the commission were called to report several times
instructed by him to shed light on the Vatileaks case.
For a number of reasons, the powers of this commission were
huge. Since the cardinals in charge were all "emeritus", that is, free from pastoral or curia appointments and therefore with much time to
disposition to investigate, and being over eighty and therefore untied from the conclave, they were, or at least they had to be,
Super partes
the papal mandate made them able to operate in extreme
freedom, so they could "override" hierarchies and proceed in one
full schedule of hearings and assessments that took place in parallel with the investigation of the magistrates and the Vatican gendarmerie.
This is how the head commission, the Spanish Julian
herranz,
jurist of the opus Dei, the Slovak Jozef
tomko, former prefect of
Propaganda Fide, and Italian
savior De Giorgi, former archbishop of Palermo, have directly related to the pontiff,
in the third
loggia where the papal apartment is located and the
secretariat of state.
an overwhelming relationship, to what is given
know; so strong that it was decisive in choosing
ratzinger to resign.
Ratzinger had it read only to his
successor, pope
Bergoglio.
but it is not excluded that it was decisive in blocking the candidacy of
scola and di
other candidates supported by powerful fundamentalist groups.
the folder was armored in the safe of a room in the
second
loggia of the apostolic palace. It is the dossier of poisons,
of the miasma of the curia, of the secrets that remain in the Vatican
never such.
to draw it up, under the control of the three cardinals detec-
tive, he was a father
louis
martignani, a Capuchin friar, already
minutante of the
secretariat of state that acted as secretary to
1. the Post Office

three high priests. Games of power, sex, money: everything is conflu
in that relationship, which will have to direct the action of
Bergoglio
in the reform of the curia.
there is not only the violation of the sixth and
seventh commandment (do not commit impure acts and do not ruin
coffins), with all that this implies in terms of credibility
for the
church (starting from
ior).
the sores of the
church are
very deep. What are the "roots" of these ills?
as
recalled the former vaticanista of «
republic"
marco Politi (today
analyst de
«Il Fatto Quotidiano» and author of
Joseph Ratzinger.
Crisis of a papacy
) in an interview with Pierluigi
apples of
Rainews,

we know, based on the "Vatileaks" documents, that
in the Vatican there are phenomena of corruption, which is great
problem in the opacity of the Vatican bank, that there are struggles of
cardinals, that there was a great ill feeling towards the
Secretary of State
Bertone.
all of this comes partly too
from the lack of forces of
blessed XV
who is a great preacher, but does not have the talent of the man of government and has done
the mistake of taking a person as a right-hand man
which has a mainly theoretical formation, such as the cardinal
tarcisio bertone and does not come from diplomatic or non-diplomatic experience
he knew the Vatican machine and had no experience of the
vatican paradox.
obviously if we go to the deep roots
of these evils are in a lack of coherence: because from a
On the other hand, the message of the church is very high and on the other - as it has
denounced the pope himself
ratzinger - there are carrierisms, divi-
sions, selfishness, personal interests and therefore, on the one hand, too much
we often see prelates involved in money business and in the last ones
public opinion has become extremely demanding against those that are scandals and sexual abuse, which for decades
they have been hidden from the church ".
let us pause for a moment on the work of the three cardinals,
because the story is connected to the theme of the forces that occultly
they work in the Vatican.
The months of work in search of the manager
of the continuous exodus of confidential documents outside the walls
leonine have been cadenced by a fast pace: to alarm -
metaphorically - it was not the "loss of water", but the idea
of the hole in the castle walls of one of the last monarchies
absolutes of the planet.
of news and the removal of documents kept on the desk
of one of the most powerful men in the world, not just the catch
of one of the most faithful of the pope, the pontiff's butler
accused of being one of the so-called crows, but also the shadow
of Freemasonry, the "enemy" par excellence, dangerous as
Communism, statutorily condemned for centuries because
cused to conspire against the church to destroy it.
during one of the many interrogations of late spring
2012, a lay person of Italian citizenship, an employee of the
secretariat of state, has framed its participation in the escape
of news in a scenario even more disturbing than it already is
he had not suggested the story of the crow-maid.
the statements of the lay employee, almost made in tears,
they opened a gash on the instigators, outlining a back-
mysterious land: "I put myself at the service of one
Masonic lodge that operates inside the Vatican and of which they are part
also of the cardinals.
purpose of our action, carried forward
in the conviction of doing the good of the
church, is to put an end to the current situation of anarchy that puts at risk the
Christianity". What is the immediate goal?
hit the cardinal
tarcisio
bertone, driving the
secretariat of state since 2006,
«To get to its replacement»
Behind the confession filtered by the Leonine walls at the end of the
Thu 2012, revealing the intentions to cut off the government
of the church the cardinal
bertone, there is really one
mas loggia
sonica clinging to the heart of the Vatican?
There is an evident clash of power in progress.
in the conflict emerged
that no room of the buttons is inviolable.
however the mysteries
they remain, as both the puppeteer and the director remain obscure.
and the trial of Paolo Gabriele revealed that among the thousands
of pages of documents seized on 25 May 2012 in
of the papal butler Paolo Gabriele «very many
concerning masonry and secret services ", as they have
the agents of the gendarmerie were clarified in the courtroom on 2 October 2012
who carried out the searches.
in addition, in the house of the "crow", located in via
egidio, close to the «observer
Roman ", manuals and were found
documentations of
intelligence
with instructions on fishing techniques
and environmental interceptions, as well as numerous maps
on espionage and trace detection methods.
among the seized papers were also dossiers on P3 e
on the P4, as well as documents that testified to a sort of
session for the figure of
louis
bisignani, object of dozens of
cards.
to this is added a real dossierag-
on thorny issues: the case
boffo, the internal procedures of
operation of the Vatican gendarmerie and the disappearance of
emanuela orlandi
Heavy names
then there is the network of confidants of the former butler of
blessed XV
the names of influential cardinals, such as the papal vicar for the
Vatican City Monsignor
angel
Comastri
and the former vicecamerlengo Paolo
Sardinians, indicated as belonging to
a
internal Masonic lodge; bishops like Francesco
cavina (now in the diocese of carpi, but previously in the
secretariat of state), and people in the past very close to pope
ratzinger, as the former secretary ingrid press.
These were some of the people with whom Paolo Gabriele,
the former papal butler convicted of the theft of documents
reserved, he had contacts and 734/5000
733 characters over 5000 maximum:
scambiava confidenze su problemi ri- guardanti la santa sede, secondo quanto è emerso dall’interro- gatorio reso il 6 giugno 2012 da Gabriele al giudice istruttore Piero antonio bonnet e reso pubblico il 2 ottobre 2012 nella seconda udienza del processo. nell’aula del tribunale d’oltretevere il promotore di giusti- zia nicola Picardi ha chiesto conto a Gabriele di quanto detto nell’interrogatorio sul fatto di essersi sentito «suggestionato» dalla «situazione ambientale» parlando di vicende che costitui- vano «scandalo per la fede» e delle «confidenze che scambiava con il cardinale comastri, con monsignor cavina, con il cardinale sardi», che aveva definito «una specie di guida spirituale», «e con ingrid stampa».
exchanged confidences on problems
looking at the Holy See, according to what emerged from the inter-
gatorio made on 6 June 2012 by Gabriele to the investigating judge
Piero antonio bonnet and published on 2 October 2012 in the
second hearing of the trial.
in the courtroom of oltretevere the promoter of justice
Aunt Nicola Picardi asked Gabriele about what was said
in the interrogation on having felt «influenced»
from the "environmental situation" talking about events that constitute
a "scandal for the faith" and of the "confidences that exchanged"
with the cardinal
comastri, with monsignor
cavina, with the cardinal
Sardinians ", who had defined" a kind of spiritual guide ",
«And with press ingrid».


----------



## Bloke (Feb 9, 2018)

Thank you for taking the time Brother





Center said:


> for Bloke,
> this is the way the book starts,
> I ommitted the notes that remand to the sources
> 
> ...



_". and the trial of Paolo Gabriele revealed that among the thousands of pages of documents seized on 25 May 2012 in of the papal butler Paolo Gabriele «very many concerning masonry and secret services ", as they have the agents of the gendarmerie were clarified in the courtroom on 2 October 2012
who carried out the searches. in addition, in the house of the "crow", located in via egidio, close to the «observer Roman ", manuals and were found documentations of intelligence with instructions on fishing techniques and environmental interceptions, as well as numerous maps on espionage and trace detection methods. among the seized papers were also dossiers on P3 e on the P4..."_

I would not read much into that "concerning masonry"- without seeing what the documents are.  It's a comment with no context or clarification.


_"a internal Masonic lodge"_

Again, this might be a clandestine group modeled on Freemasonry, or it simply might be using "Masonic Lodge" as a facsimile for a select closed group.

Regardless, to not expect a State (and the Vatican is a State) to have intrigues and spies would be naive.  However the Church has a long history of using Freemasonry and a boogieman - perhaps this is just more of the same..


----------



## Center (Feb 9, 2018)

could not agree more with your comments.


----------



## Elexir (Feb 9, 2018)

Bloke said:


> Thank you for taking the time Brother
> 
> _". and the trial of Paolo Gabriele revealed that among the thousands of pages of documents seized on 25 May 2012 in of the papal butler Paolo Gabriele «very many concerning masonry and secret services ", as they have the agents of the gendarmerie were clarified in the courtroom on 2 October 2012
> who carried out the searches. in addition, in the house of the "crow", located in via egidio, close to the «observer Roman ", manuals and were found documentations of intelligence with instructions on fishing techniques and environmental interceptions, as well as numerous maps on espionage and trace detection methods. among the seized papers were also dossiers on P3 e on the P4..."_
> ...



Considering that P3 is supposed to be just like P2 it would be more supprising if they didnt have a file on it.

Freemasonry is not just a boogieman, the irregular political freemasonry is working against the church in many countries.

Lets face it, until freemasonic lodges stop working political and starts to only initiate christians the RCC will not change its stance.


----------



## Bloke (Feb 9, 2018)

Elexir said:


> Considering that P3 is supposed to be just like P2 it would be more supprising if they didnt have a file on it.


Agree.



Elexir said:


> ....Freemasonry is not just a boogieman, the irregular political freemasonry is working against the church in many countries..


While irregular political masonic lodges might exist, they are irregular. A core of regular freemasonry is abstaining from religious and political intercourse as lodges.

Can you list 10 of these "many" countries where Freemasonry is currently working "against" the RCC ? Can you name a single regular GL who does that ?



Elexir said:


> .. Lets face it, until freemasonic lodges stop working political and starts to only initiate christians the RCC will not change its stance.



Freemasonry has  long tradition of initiating non-Christians, because we're a fraternity and not a religion and we're not a Church - with the exception of the Swedish Rite, we're designed like that exactly so we can initiated men with diverse spiritual and religious beliefs...


----------



## Daniele (Feb 19, 2018)

I do not enter into the current Italian Masonic situation because I realize that I personally experience it as being rather complex. The problem basically as pointed out by some brother

Sent from my DIG-L01 using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## Daniele (Feb 19, 2018)

Man is his pride, Freemasonry is a perfect institution and initially by tradition and regularity it was one, in whatever country it arose ... Italy, France, Spain etc ..

Sent from my DIG-L01 using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## Daniele (Feb 19, 2018)

anHe was the man and his ignorance has broken up what should hold together, so in Italy the different obediences are not wrong but the brothers who are part of it are wrong, including me 

Sent from my DIG-L01 using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## Daniele (Feb 19, 2018)

Because we do not work for the unification of a single and great Italian Freemasonry, and also because there are too many political and economic interests that prevent this, I hope that in the future this will advocate

Sent from my DIG-L01 using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## Daniele (Feb 19, 2018)

The end should be equal in any obedience to the good and progress of humanity ... May joy be in our hearts, love may reign among men and peace may reign on earth 

Sent from my DIG-L01 using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## Glen Cook (Feb 19, 2018)

Daniele said:


> I do not enter into the current Italian Masonic situation because I realize that I personally experience it as being rather complex. The problem basically as pointed out by some brother
> 
> Sent from my DIG-L01 using My Freemasonry mobile app


If you think Italy is complex, Paraguay will make your head hurt, and Baja California will send you to bed with a migraine.


----------



## Bloke (Feb 19, 2018)

Daniele said:


> ....Freemasonry is a perfect institution....



Really ? Really ?


----------



## Daniele (Feb 20, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> If you think Italy is complex, Paraguay will make your head hurt, and Baja California will send you to bed with a migraine.


I'm not aware of the situation in Paraguay and California Bay, but in Italy there is a complex situation due to hypocrisy and pride of pseudo Brothers, certainly not very nice this 

Sent from my DIG-L01 using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## Glen Cook (Feb 20, 2018)

Daniele said:


> I'm not aware of the situation in Paraguay and California Bay, but in Italy there is a complex situation due to hypocrisy and pride of pseudo Brothers, certainly not very nice this
> 
> Sent from my DIG-L01 using My Freemasonry mobile app


No, it isn’t nice, but name calling isn’t either and it won’t help resolve the schism.


----------



## Mike Martin (Feb 20, 2018)

This is really a question to put to the Italian Grand Lodges, rather than a US discussion forum.


----------



## YHWH (Oct 20, 2018)

“Grande Oriente d’Italia – Palazzo Giustiniani”, was founded in 1805 by a duly recognised Masonic body; it is independent and sovereign; it duly observes and obeys the Constitutional Chart of the Italian State, and the laws thereof. It uses the initiatory symbol of the G.A.O.T.U. and meets all the Basic Principles for Grand Lodge Recognition; in particular: the discussion of religion and politics within the Lodge are strictly prohibited, and the principles of the Antient Landmarks, customs, and usages of the Craft are strictly observed. Emulation Ritual is adopted by many of our Lodges.

GOI officially takes part in: the World Conferences of Masonic Grand Lodges, the Conferences of Grand Masters of North America, the Meetings of the Inter-American Masonic Confederation, the Conferences and Meetings of European Grand Secretaries and European Grand Masters. In 2007, the Grand Master attended the “Special Meeting” organized by UGLE (Nov. 5-6, 2007).

Last year, GOI had the privilege to organize and host the 24th European Grand Secretaries / Grand Chancellors Conference (Rome, October 11-13, 2013), and was pleased to welcome a representative of the UGLE.

GOI is in fraternal relation with 191 Regular Masonic Grand Lodges, all over the world. As several European Regular Grand Lodges, GOI is facing the problem of irregular Freemasonry.

In Italy, many irregular Masonic Grand Lodges exist; a couple of them gather some 5.000/6.000 Brethren, and have international relations. Then, it is crucial for GOI to act and work in the best way, to reaffirm the principles and values of regular Freemasonry.

With this in mind, the Grand Master of GOI is open for exchange of ideas and views on Freemasonry, with the Grand Master of RGLI.

https://www.grandeoriente.it/en/about-us/


----------



## Warrior1256 (Oct 20, 2018)

Bloke said:


> Really ? Really ?


It became a perfect institution when I became a member (***snicker snicker***)


----------



## hfmm97 (Oct 21, 2018)

Daniele said:


> I'm not aware of the situation in Paraguay and California Bay, but in Italy there is a complex situation due to hypocrisy and pride of pseudo Brothers, certainly not very nice this
> 
> Sent from my DIG-L01 using My Freemasonry mobile app



Baja [in italiano bassa (lower)] California-state of Mexico bordering on California USA, which is divided into 2 states Baja California Norte (North) and Baja California Sur (South). There are many Mexican "Masonic" Grand lodges and Orients that are considered "irregular" to the USA/UK lodges because they do NOT require a belief in Deity


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------

