# is it a requirement US legal status to join the Freemasonry?



## ryorta (Oct 7, 2009)

Is it a requirement US legal status to join the Freemasonry? 

What if someone who doesn't even have a passport or visa, but he is willing to follow the responsibilities and duties, meets, and the principles of masonry. Is there any exception, something that can be modified?

Is there anybody, directly or indirectly, involved in this situation can answer my question?


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## Sirius (Oct 7, 2009)

All Grand Lodges have some sort of residency requirement. 

But if you're talking about someone who is here in the US illegally, it does raise some flags. I would say someone living in the territory of a Grand Lodge illegally should not petition until such time that they are legal.


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## JTM (Oct 7, 2009)

is being here illegally a felony?  honest question, because i don't really know.


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## ryorta (Oct 7, 2009)

For the USCIS and Federal Government, does.

But I thought Freemasonry doesn't discriminate.


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## ryorta (Oct 7, 2009)

Looking at the fact that there's more than 12 million people illegally residing here in the US. What if some of these members would love to join their local lodge?

In this case, it means that freemasonry is affiliated with the federal government and USCIS. Can someone be allowed to deny to provide this information? Does it affect in the petition?

What about illegal college students who were raised here in the US? Is there any chances for any of them?


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## scottmh59 (Oct 7, 2009)

not to sound like a jerk,but i wouldnt vote for someone if their illegal. let them go through the steps to become a  legal citizen,than come back to be voted on.


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## Sirius (Oct 7, 2009)

This is a sad quandary. Over the generations, many good men have come to America seeking a better life. As time has passed the laws pertaining to entry and residence have grown more complicated.  Most any Lodge would welcome a good man seeking light ,no matter where he is from. Being here illegal does raise various ethical issues. Why is the individual here illegally? What are they doing to rectify the illegality? If an individual is here illegally and doing nothing about it (apply for citizenship, Visa, Etc) , I'm not sure they are ready for the Masons.


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## C_Cabra (Oct 7, 2009)

It's not a sad quandary.  Illegal aliens are by the very definition of "illegal aliens" breaking the law and they continue to do so every day that they are here.  Not to mention many of them are committing identity theft, stealing from our healthcare system, our school system etc.  Freemasons are tolerant of and extend a helping hand to... A *Worthy* brother and (in my opinion) those outside the fraternity that attempt to help themselves. Legally - as opposed to helping themselves to the money in the offering plate while no one is looking.

Freemasons are NOT the "doormat of tolerance" for all segments of society to come to with their woes no matter how "ill gotten" their problems are.  In my opinion of course. Say to me that you are black, or gay, or a Mormon and you have been descriminated against at a lodge and I will say to you that you were wronged but tell me we should open our doors to illegal aliens and I will tell you that you are smoking crack.  

Underage children are obviously a different story and deserve charity.  Grown children of illegal aliens who are themselves illegal have the advantage of language and culture over their parents to get themselves legal. None of them have an excuse as to why they remain in this country illegally. Again in my opinion.

I have shared a lodge room with plenty of brothers from foreign lands all here legally.


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## Sirius (Oct 7, 2009)

C_Cabra said:


> It's not a sad quandary.



The sad quandary would involve someone who would be a good Mason with the exception of being here illegal. In fact I said someone illegal is not prepared to petition. 

As for everything else you said, I hope it felt good to get that off your chest.


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## C_Cabra (Oct 7, 2009)

Sirius said:


> The sad quandary would involve someone who would be a good Mason with the exception of being here illegal. In fact I said someone illegal is not prepared to petition.
> 
> As for everything else you said, I hope it felt good to get that off your chest.



I'm not sure what it's like where you live in Lousiana but around here that is not getting it off your chest. That is being polite. Illegal immigration is an epidemic here.  

Last year my wife was nearly pulled from her car in a Home Depot parking lot by a mob of illegal aliens. Was she waving down workers to help her build her deck in her king cab work truck? No she was on her way to pick up some air filters in her two door coupe.

A few months ago an illegal alien killed a man while drink driving.  Sad enough. Made even more tragic that he had been arrested 3 times before for drink driving but because of people "looking the other way" he wasn't deported and because he was an illegal and through a technicality he wasn't sentenced to jail time. He also didn't have insurance or a drivers license.

Earlier this year my renter, who is a nursing student at UT, witnessed two vehicles collide and pulled 7 children and the parents from a burning SUV off of highway 812 outside of Austin. None of them spoke a word of english. It comes out in the paper a week later that they are all illegal aliens with no drivers license or insurance. And no health insurance would be my guess.

Last month this same nursing student comes home from a clinical telling us about a baby with SCIDs that they are having to take care of. Free of charge of course.  It's parents are illegal aliens and first cousins.  They have 8 other children who all have mental retardation or some other form of disability related to inbreeding.

So believe me when I say that I am not "getting it off my chest" I am not even scratching the surface. These accounts are just a drop in the bucket. Google illegal alien and dialysis in the same search for a start.

I think Good Mason and Illegal used to describe the same individual is what you would call an oxymoron.


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## Nate Riley (Oct 7, 2009)

ryorta said:


> For the USCIS and Federal Government, does.
> 
> *But I thought Freemasonry doesn't discriminate*.



Thats incorrect. We descrimate against several groups. When it comes to joining our fraternity atheists, criminals and folks with severe mental issues to name a couple. We don't allow masonic dealings with clandestine, suspended or expelled masons.



C_Cabra said:


> I'm not sure what it's like where you live in Lousiana but around here that is not getting it off your chest. That is being polite. Illegal immigration is an epidemic here.
> 
> *I think Good Mason and Illegal used to describe the same individual is what you would call an oxymoron*.



Agreed!


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## Sirius (Oct 7, 2009)

C_Cabra said:


> I think Good Mason and Illegal used to describe the same individual is what you would call an oxymoron.



So you think a citizen of the United Kingdom here on an expired visa (illegally) doesn't have the potential to be a good Mason?

This got blown way out of proportion. I understand that illegals are an ongoing problem, I am a native Texan. But the question did not specify from where the candidate comes or give all the circumstances. 

And again, I said if you're illegal it's not the time to petition. So whats your beef with me? Can I help you find your compasses.


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## C_Cabra (Oct 7, 2009)

Sirius said:


> So you think a citizen of the United Kingdom here on an expired visa (illegally) doesn't have the potential to be a good Mason?
> 
> This got blown way out of proportion. I understand that illegals are an ongoing problem, I am a native Texan. But the question did not specify from where the candidate comes or give all the circumstances.
> 
> And again, I said if you're illegal it's not the time to petition. So whats your beef with me? Can I help you find your compasses.



Your first statement is all about semantics.  I think we can both agree that a foreigner on an expired visa and someone who sneaks across the border are  different - Assuming that the expired visa is a technicality and the foreigner in question has or had every intention of complying with our laws. 

Someone who sneaks across the border in the dark of night has never had the intention or the appearance of following our laws.

Brother I have no beef with you.  I simply commented and expressed my disagreement with your original statement and made some commentary on your post and all those that preceded it (by different authors). This is a big issue here( in Texas) and I personally don't feel there is any room for debate when it comes to illegal aliens ( and I don't mean the guy who is a month late renewing his visa) I don't want to share the road with them, the hospital, or the construction site. I don't think they should be here so the last place I would expect to see them is in my Lodge or any Lodge within these borders for that matter. 

I disagree with your statement that it is a sad quandary. I have no empathy for an illegal aliens need for fellowship within our fold. If we were to accept illegal aliens in our lodges it would only serve to validate their behavior and undermine the rule of law in our country. 

I did see that you stated that it was not the time for them to petition.
My contention is that if they are the "sneak over the border and live in the shadows circumventing the rule of law" illegal alien there is never a time for them to petition now or in the future. It is a life of crime they lead irrespective of the bleeding hearts and the profiteers turning a blind eye.

Yes I am a bit passionate on this subject. Please don't feel as if I directed anything at you personally. I am actually sitting here very calm and collected and not cursing and shaking my fist at your moniker. I just have a position and I am not ashamed to share it.


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## MGM357 (Oct 7, 2009)

When an induvidual petitions a lodge, isn't one the questions asked on the petition is do you live within the district of the lodge ?  If a brother from another country wants to join another lodge, he should obtain a certificate of good standing from his home lodge.

We have an EA from a lodge in Mexico, and it's a lodge recognized by the GL. The brother is going to college here to become a lawyer. He wants to join our lodge. The first day he came to our lodge he already had his certificate of good standing.


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## Sirius (Oct 7, 2009)

You see, I never even thought that it would be a sneak across the border kind of situation. Pablo the grapefruit picker isn't going to be petitioning the Lodge. I never even perceived the question in that frame. That's where the yellow and blue we got crossed. 

I don't really disagree with your views on illegals. However, it could make a good thread. 

The subject of immigration has nothing to do with the following:
Anytime someone is cut off from the light, it is sad. That doesn't cross over into any social, economic, or political issue. That's all I was getting at.  If a man is on the path but can find no mentors or brethren, he is alone in the world. A very sad place to be.

I'm glad we're still friends. :grouphug:


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## Sirius (Oct 7, 2009)

MGM357 said:


> If a brother from another country wants to join another lodge, he should obtain a certificate of good standing from his home lodge.
> 
> We have an EA from a lodge in Mexico, and it's a lodge recognized by the GL.
> 
> The first day he came to our lodge he already had his certificate of good standing.



A certificate of good standing is issued to a member of a Lodge. So if you're not a Mason already there is no certificate to get.


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## scottmh59 (Oct 7, 2009)

:fencing::amen::boink::rockon:


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## Hippie19950 (Oct 7, 2009)

Having dealt with many of the illegal aliens from SOB in my career as a Peace Officer, I can tell you that many of them have absolutely no intention of ever being legal in anything they do. Some are here, trying to find a better life, and have the ability to do good, but the only way they found at the time, was to sneak across the border illegally. My Grandfather came here from Germany in the early 1900's, but worked to become a legal resident, and a U.S. Citizen. It was a long and hard journey for him, as well as many others. The system may be more complicated now as we look back, but it was just as hard then as it is now. If those coming here, would work to become legal, it would be much better. I have made arrests, and part of the sentencing was for them to be deported to Mexico. That was all good and well, but these same people would show up within 6 months again... Another point you are missing, I had to supply a copy of my Birth Certificate, and State Identification (D.L.), and unless it is a forgery, most of the illegal's can't do that. I being born a Yankee, do not speak Spanish, so I would not understand their work when it was turned in...


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## C_Cabra (Oct 7, 2009)

Sirius said:


> You see, I never even thought that it would be a sneak across the border kind of situation. Pablo the grapefruit picker isn't going to be petitioning the Lodge. I never even perceived the question in that frame. That's where the yellow and blue we got crossed.
> 
> I don't really disagree with your views on illegals. However, it could make a good thread.
> 
> ...



It crossed mine.  I belong to a lodge with plenty of working class folks. There's no difference between them and that illegal guy except he's illegal and does it cheaper.  "Pablo the grapefruit picker" is also Pablo the Electrician, Pablo the Carpenter, Pablo the sheetrocker, and Pablo the stone worker.  Just like some of the guys at my lodge. Except the guys at my lodge have auto insurance, drivers licenses, health insurance, pay taxes, and follow laws. They also want to work for a living wage and don't live ten people to a home.

I don't think illegals are subhuman and I won't insult their intelligence thinking everyone that sneaks across the border is here to do something as menial as picking grapefruit (not that you insuated that either). I have been working in construction for a long time and there are some very skilled trades that have become dominated by illegal aliens.  I'm not fooled into thinking they just mow your lawn and pick your fruit or do all the jobs "no one wants to do". That right there is the biggest lie of the 21st century if you ask me.  I don't know one carpenter, sheetrocker, painter, etc that wouldn't like to do his job but can't because an illegal does it cheaper.

As to being cut off from the light - Men choose their own path. No one forced them across the border illegally and into a life of crime.

It's been nice chatting with you Brother Sirius


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## scottmh59 (Oct 7, 2009)

Hippie19950 said:


> I being born a Yankee, do not speak Spanish, so I would not understand their work when it was turned in...



and i do not want to hear the work given back in spanish:target:


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## Sirius (Oct 7, 2009)

scottmh59 said:


> :fencing::amen::boink::rockon:



Scott is speaking in smiley faces now. Hmmm I think he's going around the bend. 




C_Cabra said:


> It's been nice chatting with you Brother Sirius



Same Here.


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## Bill Lins (Oct 8, 2009)

First, in answer to JTM's question, illegal entry is an "administrative misdemeanor"- not a felony, according to the Feds.

Secondly, regarding work given in a foreign language, all work in a Texas Lodge is required to be performed in English (Art. 127).

Thirdly, although I am in sympathy with any man who tries to make a better life for himself & his family, the simple truth of the matter is that this country just cannot accomodate everyone in the world who wishes to live here. We simply don't have the space, jobs, or resources to support them. Additionally, as pointed out earlier, not everyone who comes here is a good person just wanting a better life- many of them are criminals in other ways besides just being here illegally.


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## Blake Bowden (Oct 8, 2009)

ryorta said:


> Is it a requirement US legal status to join the Freemasonry?



Absolutely.  



ryorta said:


> What if someone who doesn't even have a passport or visa, but he is willing to follow the responsibilities and duties, meets, and the principles of masonry. Is there any exception, something that can be modified?



How can one meet the responsibilities and duties of Freemasonry if they're here illegally? If one cannot follow the rule of law, how are we supposed to trust him as a Brother?


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## ryorta (Oct 8, 2009)

I am so glad that my question has been answer. I've never seen such issue being discuss with so many different people and different points of view. However, it seems that all of us have some "stereotyping" and "stigmatizing" image of what the question covers.

Allow me to be more specific with the question. This is a story:

A student just graduated from college with a bachelors of [fill any career here] with honors, the best GPA from a well recognized university, with the best recommendations from high-rank staff from the university.

Sadly, he can't get paycheck, he can't work with the best companies pertaining to his field, he can't vote, he can't travel around the country like his/her other classmates who graduated with him.

Why? because his family left  his homeland to seek a better life since he was a little child-- an american dream--. He grew up here thinking as an american, he call HOME a country that he is very aware that he is "Ghost". He is an illegal alien.

He, and his family, suffered discrimination, trying to adapt to a lifestyle unknown for them. He and his family respect all local and state laws, excellent moral, excellent community recognitions.

This student hears about the Freemasonry, a place to seek light, seek an internal hope, a place that he can get involve more with the people--a brotherhood--. He is seeking a place to be hear, to get to know more people, and to do things that can help other people in misfortune.

Can Freemasonry help? Can Freemasonry change the life of this lost soul? Can Freemasonry transform his life more beneficial to the community? 

He didn't choose to be illegal, but he is willing to give life, soul, tear and sweat to honor the freemasonry. But how if the requirement is a US birth certificate, a visa, a passport?

Can Freemasonry do something to this outstanding individual?
Freemasonry doesn't allow atheists, criminals and people with disability--CRIMINALS-- Being illegal is federal crime. He didn't want to commit it. He was a little boy when he got here.

I think as brothers, the Supreme Being can do anything he wants. We should realize that all of us are born in the same planet, under the same sky. And if we see a very, and deep committed candidate---No matter what circumstances surround him--The Lodge should give him a chance.

Personally, that's what I am thinking. I understand everybody's point of view. But we should do something about this interesting and fascinating issue


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## Blake Bowden (Oct 8, 2009)

ryorta said:


> He and his family respect all local and state laws, excellent moral, excellent community recognitions.



How can his family respect "all local and state laws" when they continue to  break them?


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## MGM357 (Oct 8, 2009)

Sirius said:


> A certificate of good standing is issued to a member of a Lodge. So if you're not a Mason already there is no certificate to get.



When an induvidual petitions a lodge, isn't one the questions asked on the petition is do you live within the district of the lodge ?

Why can't the individual become a citizen and then try to become a Brother?


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## scottmh59 (Oct 8, 2009)

blake said:


> How can his family respect "all local and state laws" when they continue to  break them?



i agree..if he loves this country so much,and is so smart,why does he not become legal? until he becomes a legal citizen he is breaking this countrys laws. how could we expect him to follow the laws of freemasonry?


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## Sirius (Oct 8, 2009)

MGM357 said:


> When an induvidual petitions a lodge, isn't one the questions asked on the petition is do you live within the district of the lodge ?



It is. 



> Why can't the individual become a citizen and then try to become a Brother?



He should.


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## rhitland (Oct 8, 2009)

ryorta said:


> I think as brothers, the Supreme Being can do anything he wants. We should realize that all of us are born in the same planet, under the same sky. And if we see a very, and deep committed candidate---No matter what circumstances surround him--The Lodge should give him a chance.



I commend you on your steadfastness to hold the laws of this country and the intent to follow Masonic law but what you are asking is for us to break this law. Which us no longer being children have no excuse. We joined Masonry by an obligation to uphold these laws so we would not only be breaking Masonic law we would be breaking an oath to God.

To answer your questions about Masonry though it can change any individuals life who is willing to invest the time into but this is true with almost any useful art.


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## Wingnut (Oct 8, 2009)

to add to what Rhit is saying... no man has a RIGHT to be made a Mason, it is earned and our requirements to join are set in stone (no pun intended).


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## JBD (Oct 8, 2009)

ryorta said:


> I This is a story:
> 
> A student just graduated from college with a bachelors of [fill any career here] with honors, the *best GPA from a well recognized university*, with the *best recommendations from high-rank staff from the university*.....he can't get paycheck, he *can't work *with the best companies ..... he *can't vote,* he *can't travel *around the country like his/her other classmates who graduated with him.
> 
> ...



Let me address this one chunk at a time - 

This highly educated, highly touted, highly acclaimed, obviously intelligent "student" is ILLEGAL 

In the 16 years it took him to get that degree (probably on in-state tuition rates when he should be paying out of state) he had plenty of time at 18 years old to apply for citizenship, he obviously has had the education to pass a citizenship test - - Oh wait he is ILLEGAL

He and his family does not suuport, uphold, revere or all laws, only those they chose to adhere to.

Freemasonry can help, it doesn't save souls, it is not a religion, it cannot take a criminal and eerase his past. it cannot take an illegal alien and make him a citizen - Masonry takes a good man and makes him better.

If he truly does not want to be in a continuing criminal circumstance he needs to rectify that situation. It will not be painless, it will most likely take years, but he needs to take the first step.

"The Lodge should give him a chance" ....... We are not rehab, we are not the judiciary, we are a Fraternity.  Our members are law abiding, honest, hard working people.  We did not get in because we were "given a chance" we were admitted because we could demonstrate who we were and what we were about. AND that we were not engaged in a continuing criminal situation - most could demonstrate they had NEVER been in a criminal situation, Local, State Federal, Felony Misdemeanor or otherwise.  Those are the standards - they are not fleixbile, they are there to proctect the fraternity not accomodate me, you or anyone else.

I apologize for the directness of this posting.  It is my opinion.  I am entitled to it and no one has to agree with it, but it is mine.


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## Sirius (Oct 8, 2009)

JBD said:


> I apologize for the directness of this posting.



Bruce, if you're anything, it's direct.


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## HKTidwell (Oct 8, 2009)

ryorta said:


> He didn't choose to be illegal, but he is willing to give life, soul, tear and sweat to honor the freemasonry. But how if the requirement is a US birth certificate, a visa, a passport?



There is no requirement dealing with a US Birth Certificate, Visa, a Passport.  This is an moral and ethical issue surrounding a person who continues to live as a criminal in a foreign land.  If a person is willing to live in a constant criminal state then they do not have the honor, respect, or regard to be a mason.



ryorta said:


> Can Freemasonry do something to this outstanding individual?
> Freemasonry doesn't allow atheists, criminals and people with disability--CRIMINALS-- Being illegal is federal crime. He didn't want to commit it. He was a little boy when he got here.



Disabilities are allowed under dispensations, I believe.  I know in other states it is and I believe Texas does too.  Mental issues while they can be a disability, deals with a person who is not capable of making rational decision.  While this person may have arrived here as a "little boy" from my understanding he is an adult now and is making an informed decision to disregard the law.



ryorta said:


> I think as brothers, the Supreme Being can do anything he wants. We should realize that all of us are born in the same planet, under the same sky. And if we see a very, and deep committed candidate---No matter what circumstances surround him--The Lodge should give him a chance.



Are you equating each of us to the Supreme Being?  This discussion is not about whether we are all equal or not.  We are all equal and I would hope not a single person here would disagree.  It is about a person breaking the law of the land and evading due process.



ryorta said:


> Personally, that's what I am thinking. I understand everybody's point of view. But we should do something about this interesting and fascinating issue



I believe everybody has said that if they are of good moral and ethical character(not breaking the law) they would support the person.  Why should Masons take a person who knows they are continually breaking the law into their midst?  In my opinion this is not only a bad idea but is detrimental to the fraternity.  If a person drives to lodge for investigation and is Drunk as a skunk and then leaves the lodge drunk should we also allow them in.  I think not!  It is not a felony to drive drunk but it is a moral and ethical issue.  


These are my thoughts on this issue.  I do not and will not support the allowance of criminals into our midst.  I do not limit this to any country or origin of the person.  If a person was illegally here from China, UK, Mexico Canada, or any other county I would view it the same.   I understand that a person may be a good person and be here illegally but it does not change the circumstance nor their disregard for the law of the land.

Please do not take this as an attack on you.  It is meant only for conversation and to respond to the issues as I see them.


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## JBD (Oct 8, 2009)

Sirius said:


> Bruce, if you're anything, it's direct.



ROFL------- Breathe - ----- ROFL


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## MGM357 (Oct 8, 2009)

Whether this is a true or made up scenario. Let's try to keep it simple. A man has to deemed worthy and well qaulified. Worthy is the measure of a person's character by his actions toward his diety, and fellow man. Well qaulified is the person good standing with laws of his country or state.

If a non US citizen has high morals and character and wants to become a Mason, then becoming a citizen shouldn't be a problem. It would show a commitment to our country and to our Fraternity as well.


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## Sirius (Oct 8, 2009)

MGM357 said:


> Whether this is a true or made up scenario. Let's try to keep it simple. A man has to deemed worthy and well qaulified. Worthy is the measure of a person's character by his actions toward his diety, and fellow man. Well qaulified is the person good standing with laws of his country or state.
> 
> If a non US citizen has high morals and character and wants to become a Mason, then becoming a citizen shouldn't be a problem. It would show a commitment to our country and to our Fraternity as well.



Well stated. I very much agree.


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## JTM (Oct 8, 2009)

JTM approves of this discussion and appreciates the epic opinions.


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## scottmh59 (Oct 8, 2009)

if he wants to be a mason bad enough,then becoming a legal citizen is not much for him to undertake in order to become one.
"*I apologize for the directness of this posting. It is my opinion. I am entitled to it and no one has to agree with it, but it is mine."*:humble:


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## Bill Lins (Oct 9, 2009)

HKTidwell said:


> There is no requirement dealing with a US Birth Certificate, Visa, a Passport.



Actually, the EA charge states: "As a citizen, you are to be a quiet and peaceable subject, true to your government, and just to your country; you are not to countenance disloyalty or rebellion, but patiently submit to legal authority, and conform with cheerfulness to the government of the country in which you live."

Guys, I read that to mean you gotta be here legally- YMMV.


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## Blake Bowden (Oct 9, 2009)

That probably wasn't around in 1776...lol


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## owls84 (Oct 9, 2009)

Great topic, question came up last night when I was telling a candidate that he needed a copy of his birth certificate with his petition. I had a pretty good answer for him. Thanks for the posts.


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## jim9361 (Mar 25, 2010)

:001_unsure:


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## drapetomaniac (Mar 25, 2010)

C_Cabra said:


> I have shared a lodge room with plenty of brothers from foreign lands all here legally.


 
I'm curious as to how you measured that.


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## drapetomaniac (Mar 25, 2010)

Saw this yesterday, but didn't think to post it because it would just start what was already started.  But since y'all are already on it.



> Last nightâ€™s â€œahaâ€ moment came as I was reflecting on the issue of comprehensive immigration reform. The tendency of faith leaders advocating for a compassionate approach to immigrants is to appeal to the numerous â€œbe kind to strangersâ€ texts in the Hebrew Scriptures. The problem with this approach is that it elicits a universal response from the other side, â€œYes, but those were legal immigrants. Iâ€™m talking about illegal immigrants. Since illegal immigrants are lawbreakers, they shouldnâ€™t have any rights. And if you think they should, youâ€™re just another godless liberal seeking to undermine the moral fabric of Americaâ€¦ etc., etc.â€ It occurred to me that one of the most famous and beloved women in the entire Bible was an â€œillegalâ€ immigrant. Her name was Ruth.
> 
> Iâ€™m not making this up. Deuteronomy 23:3 is clear, â€œAn Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter the assembly of the Lord; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the Lord forever.â€ If youâ€™re still not convinced that descendants of Moab were ordered to be excluded from the congregation of Israel, take a look at verse 6, which says, â€œYou shall not seek their peace nor their prosperity all their days forever.â€ With this in mind, isnâ€™t it strange that the hero in the story of Ruth is Boaz, a man that showed kindness to a Moabite woman? We look at the story today and know intuitively that Boaz was a hero, but we often forget that Boaz could have very well been considered a villain to the religious leaders of his day. After all, they might have said, the law forbids people like Ruth from being included in Israeli society â€” and they would have been right.
> Kind of strange isnâ€™t it? God writes a law and then commends people for breaking it? I can think of two other examples where this strange paradox occurs.
> ...


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## Raven (Mar 25, 2010)

So Mote it Be!



Wingnut said:


> to add to what Rhit is saying... no man has a RIGHT to be made a Mason, it is earned and our requirements to join are set in stone (no pun intended).


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## GCT (Mar 24, 2011)

The problem that this man is facing right now is that it is not as simple as you all think to become a resident alien, unfortunately this country has made it very much impossible for these people to become legal. Don't ever came to your head that nobody wants to be an illegal alien? .'. .'. .'.


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## Bill Lins (Mar 24, 2011)

GCT said:


> Don't ever came to your head that nobody wants to be an illegal alien? .'. .'. .'.


 
Be that as it may, Masons _must_ be law-abiding. Sorry for your guy, but that's the bottom line.


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## Beathard (Mar 24, 2011)

So may it ever be... Protect the west gate!

Don't fix the problem by allowing criminals to join. Fix the problem by addressing the manner in which people become legal. Fix the problem; don't create another!


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 20, 2015)

scottmh59 said:


> not to sound like a jerk,but i wouldnt vote for someone if their illegal. let them go through the steps to become a  legal citizen,than come back to be voted on.


I agree. If someone is breaking the law daily I would think that this would disqualify them from membership.


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## Ba7 (May 29, 2018)

I come from an ancient irregular temple and i wouldnt call myself a believer so you may take my words with a grain of salt. 

I am married to a us citizen. You gentlemen have no clue what you speak of and how hard your gov has made it. Someone just quoted how you shouldnt scrutinize or stand up against ur own gov. So between education and fairness on one side and following rules blindly you choose the latter without question.


I even heard someone take a bash at liberals. Hehe. I am thankful i walk my road alone then. Id rather that than share it with most of the views shown here.

Whoch leads me to believe what i know is true. that freemasonry is lost multiple times since 1717. 

You remind me of the Muslim arabs i grew up around. I tend to see the lack of empathy as well. That same empathy your lord and savior jesus christ had plenty to spare and he had said i am the way so who are you to cling to your personal opinion. A child of the light?  Sure. 

You think there is a difference between people who were born here and people who werent. The constitution doesnt make that mistake. 

Also the scripture the gentleman quoted earlier said to always obey goverbment. So if germany or russia or ksa takes over usa you are bound to not protect yourself and obey?

Is that what the native americans still dubbed indians should have done?
Also you speak of human gov laws. Do any of you rise beyond the ten commandments?  Has any of us truly rose above the first degree. 

Freemasonry is cool but freemasons are outdated. They forgot what they were building. And now they are in-bred shouting damn tree huggers gonna ruin our country. Well it aint reallyyours. You stole it. And killed for it. And not too long ago. But you are so inbred you lack awareness amongst other things. 

So you killed. A godly sin. And u live in it everyday. And you are allowed to be mason. Yet anyone who walkes in now (like your granddaddy did) or fails to renew a visa is cast out of the light?  What is this newage light you follow. Is it LED? Is it blind or blinding.  You are selectively christian. So you are not christian at all. 

Excuse my blunt. Loaded it with kief.


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## Ba7 (May 29, 2018)

And jesus was an arab jew.. dark and ugly and smelly. Not white and inbred and entitled.


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## Ba7 (May 29, 2018)

So you adopt Christianity and freemasonry which are both middle eastern constructs. Which means you are a thief with no honor. Wheres the credit?  Wheres being humble. Wheres curiosity and studying. 

So you a thief with no honor roam free in this world but an illegal alien is cast out from the light?


You must forget that it was immigrant brain power that made this country great with science and literature. Not inbreds


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## CLewey44 (May 29, 2018)

...and you are an angry troll....


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## Ba7 (May 29, 2018)

Yes lets skip all the logic and only notice attitudes. Like if any thought that doesnt go with our thinking is invalid?  Although i do agree i do see myself as a clown but am like krusty. Am serious. Since my tone is wrong i dont mind dwleting my comments. And by wrong i meant provoking. Maube even offending but whats wrong with shock therapy. Whats wrong with allowing people have their opinions no mayter how wrong they are. Obviously the couple biggots who replied with biggot point of views were allowed like if what they say is ultimate truth. I offer nothing but truth in my presentation. Maybe i should have remained silent and just felt pity.


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## Ba7 (May 29, 2018)

Maybe you are confusing my passion for the truth with anger.


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## CLewey44 (May 29, 2018)

> Yes lets skip all the logic and only notice attitudes.



Lets just project while we're at it.



> ...but whats wrong with shock therapy.



It's often underused....


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## Ba7 (May 29, 2018)

...
.. 
....
.
...
.


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## Warrior1256 (May 29, 2018)

CLewey44 said:


> ...and you are an angry troll....





CLewey44 said:


> Lets just project while we're at it.





CLewey44 said:


> It's often underused....


Agreed! Like we care what he thinks, lol.


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## Elexir (May 30, 2018)

Ba7 said:


> I come from an ancient irregular temple and i wouldnt call myself a believer so you may take my words with a grain of salt.
> 
> I am married to a us citizen. You gentlemen have no clue what you speak of and how hard your gov has made it. Someone just quoted how you shouldnt scrutinize or stand up against ur own gov. So between education and fairness on one side and following rules blindly you choose the latter without question.
> 
> ...



If freemasons had risen against goverments it had in many ways been striken down by now.
In some countries it was the ruling class who took in freemasonry.

The light has not changed but its up to you to understand it.

Can you say that you know what true christianity is? Then you are deluded.



Ba7 said:


> And jesus was an arab jew.. dark and ugly and smelly. Not white and inbred and entitled.



Most European where smelly and dirty in the middle ages.



Ba7 said:


> So you adopt Christianity and freemasonry which are both middle eastern constructs. Which means you are a thief with no honor. Wheres the credit?  Wheres being humble. Wheres curiosity and studying.
> 
> So you a thief with no honor roam free in this world but an illegal alien is cast out from the light?
> 
> ...



Freemasonry in the modern sense is european.

True, christianity is from the middle east but we have had a christian culture for a few hundred years and modern freemasonry came out of this so no we are not theifs.


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## Bro Book (Jun 1, 2018)

JTM said:


> is being here illegally a felony?  honest question, because i don't really know.


Only after getting caught .

Sent from my RCT6973W43 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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