# Incoming GM will not grant dispensation for more than 5



## Brother_Steve (Apr 7, 2015)

We have 13 entered apprentices. It looks like we're doing a lot of degrees to wrap up the year!


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## MarkR (Apr 7, 2015)

In 1946, my lodge had 50 stated and special communications to keep up with the degree work.


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## Companion Joe (Apr 7, 2015)

We had 33 or 34 lodge openings last year for stated meetings and degree work and conferred more than 30 degrees (I can't remember the exact number).


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## JJones (Apr 7, 2015)

More than 5 what?


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## crono782 (Apr 7, 2015)

I would imagine candidates at a time for a degree.

Which I don't think is a bad idea.


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## masson (Apr 7, 2015)

We've had an emergent meeting atleast once a month since we started this year. With as many as 3 candidates... I little excessive in my opinion. (Takes away from the ceremony)


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## JJones (Apr 7, 2015)

crono782 said:


> I would imagine candidates at a time for a degree.
> 
> Which I don't think is a bad idea.



Thanks for clarifying for me.

At a time when ODCs are a thing in some parts of the country, I'm glad to see GL's moving in the opposite direction.



> We have 13 entered apprentices. It looks like we're doing a lot of degrees to wrap up the year!



So it would be better to rush them through?


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## Ripcord22A (Apr 8, 2015)

I agree that i dont like the multiple candidate thing.  I've never seen it nor do i personally know anyone that had gone through a degree that way i just know from my SR experience that i took more away from the ones i was the candidate


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## dfreybur (Apr 8, 2015)

Different jurisdictions have different rules.  The rules aren't always sensible because they've evolved over a very long time.

In Illinois a lodge has to open on a specific degree in any one day without dispensation.  Up to 3 candidates can be at the altar at a time - My favorite position is spare deacon escorting the 2nd or 3rd candidate around whispering meaning to him.  Up to 7 candidates in one evening.  Though the obligation section of the 3rd can be done in parallel the 2nd section is individual.  In effect Illinois lodges do 3rds individually.  For about a decade no GM has granted dispensation to do all 3 degrees in the same meeting but all recent GMs have encouraged combined 2nd and 3rd classes at the district level to clear out the pipeline.  The parts of the whole don't match.  It was a long time ago the last time many lodges had the problem of more candidates than weeks so the rules are mixed from different generations.

Running a small number of candidates through in parallel at the same time gets a sense of participation and team among the parallel candidates.  In Illinois often candidates who got their 1st in parallel ask for their 2nd in parallel together.

Parallel candidates are not a class.  Parallel candidates work according to the candidates.  The degrees are about the candidates - Hard to internalize.

So not the same as a class system.  Classes work also but face more opposition.  Most of us who have been around a long time are gratified that new guys usually want single or parallel candidate degrees not classes.  But I've seen guys fail to show up for their individual 2nds then show up at their class.  Then end up active in lodge.  I don't have to understand it.  I just have internalize that the degrees are about the candidates not about me and different new guys want it different ways.


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## Brother_Steve (Apr 8, 2015)

JJones said:


> Thanks for clarifying for me.
> 
> At a time when ODCs are a thing in some parts of the country, I'm glad to see GL's moving in the opposite direction.
> 
> ...


We have 13 EA's. Of which some cannot make the degree so in reality we would have had two FC degrees and one would need dispensation for 6 instead of the max of 5.

I am not the master of the lodge. I am a steward way down on the totem poll. My post was just to highlight what the GM did and how lodges in the state of NJ will have to adjust. Not to say I'm upset that we cannot ram everyone through all at once.

In fact, our incoming GM and those in the line under him are stressing education and possibly returning to the examinations as they existed before they were gutted in the mid 2000's. Something I'm glad to see as I've been studying them to commit them to memory since being raised in 2013.


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## Ripcord22A (Apr 8, 2015)

What is the difference between parallel candidates and classes?


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## MarkR (Apr 9, 2015)

Parallel candidates all go through the degree together.  Classes have one exemplar candidate and all the others just watch.


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## Companion Joe (Apr 9, 2015)

In Tennessee, only one candidate is permitted at a time for first sections. If you have more than one on a given night, you do all the first sections individually, then bring them in as a group for the second sections in the EA and FC. For MM, if you have more than one on a given night, you do the first section individually followed by a short form of the second section until you get to the last candidate, then he gets the full second section.


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## Brother_Steve (Apr 9, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> What is the difference between parallel candidates and classes?


one day class is where you watch the degrees from a sideline.

parallel (I never heard it spoken of that way here) I'm assuming means you circumambulate as a group.

I was initiated with two others. Being nervous and blindfolded I never knew they were there until it came to the obligation. By that time you are overwhelmed.

As it has been my personal experience, you get more out of watching the degree than being in it. Being in it is an experience in and of itself but watching it is a different animal. It's hard for me to put the emotions into words. I'm not trying to belittle any one way of doing it versus another.


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## Pscyclepath (Apr 9, 2015)

In Arkansas, only one candidate at a time may go through the first section (conferral) of any degree, or the 2nd section of the Masters degree.  You may present the second & third section of the EA, the second section of the FC, and the third section of the Masters to a group or class en mass.


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## dfreybur (Apr 9, 2015)

Brother_Steve said:


> one day class is where you watch the degrees from a sideline.[\QUOTE]
> 
> With one exemplar for each section of each degree the times I've been to a class.  There is supposed to be one mentor for every candidate to hold the bible during the obligation.  Once I walked across the floor to a candidate looking for his mentor.


parallel (I never heard it spoken of that way here) I'm assuming means you circumambulate as a group.[/QUOTE]

And obligate at the altar at the same time.



> I was initiated with two others. Being nervous and blindfolded I never knew they were there until it came to the obligation. By that time you are overwhelmed.



You weren't all together in the preparation room before entering?  It's a significant bonding moment among the parallel candidates and the several deacons who will walk them around.



> As it has been my personal experience, you get more out of watching the degree than being in it. Being in it is an experience in and of itself but watching it is a different animal. It's hard for me to put the emotions into words. I'm not trying to belittle any one way of doing it versus another.



More of the content watching later times, but one of the last pieces of advice I was given was to pay close attention to the words because I would later have to remember most of them.  By the next day I was surprised at how much I still knew and at how much I had no idea what exactly had happened.


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## dfreybur (Apr 9, 2015)

Thirteen candidates.  A maximum of 5 at a meeting in your jurisdiction.  That's 3 meetings of degrees and room for some expansion in case as many as 2 of them miss their first attempts.  If your lodge doesn't do degrees at stated meetings* that fills up your calendar for a month.  Or spread over 2 months.  It's not a bad plan to spread them out like that.  They will need to be spread out even further for their later degrees.

*Because of the time involved I have seen very few lodges conduct any degree after a stated meeting, and only first degrees.  At least one of my lodges has not done so in living memory.


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## Brother_Steve (Apr 10, 2015)

Yes we're in the prep room together.


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## Rifleman1776 (Apr 10, 2015)

I have mixed feelings about this issue. A Lodge that has 5 or 13 candidates is very fortunate and doing something right. I'll agree that individual initiation is best. But reality is, if you have several extra meetings a month many members may not be able to attend. My lodge has members who come from 50 to 60 miles away. (I'm about 40) The burden on family, time and even gas cost is a limiting factor. I favor some type of group initiation and feel we can teach good Masonry after the fact.


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## JJones (Apr 10, 2015)

Rifleman1776 said:


> I have mixed feelings about this issue. A Lodge that has 5 or 13 candidates is very fortunate and doing something right. I'll agree that individual initiation is best. But reality is, if you have several extra meetings a month many members may not be able to attend. My lodge has members who come from 50 to 60 miles away. (I'm about 40) The burden on family, time and even gas cost is a limiting factor. I favor some type of group initiation and feel we can teach good Masonry after the fact.



I just noticed you're from Mountain Home AR?  My grandparents used to live there in the 90's. Very nice countryside.

You and I have two very different perspectives on this matter!  I couldn't imagine keeping the West gate closely tiled and still having so many candidates at the same time.


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## Companion Joe (Apr 10, 2015)

Rifleman1776 said:


> I have mixed feelings about this issue. A Lodge that has 5 or 13 candidates is very fortunate and doing something right. I'll agree that individual initiation is best. But reality is, if you have several extra meetings a month many members may not be able to attend. My lodge has members who come from 50 to 60 miles away. (I'm about 40) The burden on family, time and even gas cost is a limiting factor. I favor some type of group initiation and feel we can teach good Masonry after the fact.



50-60 miles away? That's interesting. We have five in our county alone (population 65,00). A 60 mile radius would include almost 50 lodges. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. I'm just saying I find it interesting.


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## Rifleman1776 (Apr 11, 2015)

My concern is declining membership, partly caused by complexity of  ritual. At least 3/4 of my Lodge's membership is over age 75. Piling more work and travel on them will result in fewer attending meetings. Ad justments must be made before Freemasonry becomes an historical footnote.


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## Companion Joe (Apr 11, 2015)

What adjustments do you want to make? Change the ritual? Dumb it down? To that I can not agree. If we change the ritual just to suit perspective members, then we don't need them. Men either want to be Masons, or they want to join the Kiwanis or Optimist.

Membership numbers do not concern me. I'd rather have a dozen good MASONS than I would 200 MEMBERS. The only people who should worry about membership numbers are those who have buildings they over built. Membership numbers from 1945 to about 1965 were an over inflated bubble. We need to look at membership numbers prior to WWI to gauge where the fraternity needs to be. Freemasonry (my lodge included) has brought in people in recent times that should have never been admitted. They don't fit the mold. They aren't bad people, but they aren't community leaders, either. Historically, that's what Masonry was, the community elite. I'd rather us get back to that than dumb it down just to bring in today's Twitter and Facebook generation. Do we want to change the ritual to 140 characters?


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## Rifleman1776 (Apr 12, 2015)

Can't agree with your perspective. I have written two stories on this subject which were published in York Rite magazines some 20 years ago. They are not digitized, I'll have to retype and post here, if allowed, sometime. Without people you have nothing.


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## Companion Joe (Apr 12, 2015)

Then we will cordially agree to disagree. I concur that without people you have nothing, but if you go radically changing what you have to suit people, then you no longer have Freemasonry. I would rather put an old friend out of its misery and preside over the funeral than see it wither into a shell of its former self and become no better than any other civic fraternity.

I am an English and history teacher by profession and nature. The only numbers that matter to me are dates. While the Freemasonry we practice is undoubtedly slightly different than that practiced by George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Joseph Warren, and the rest of the Founding Fathers, it hasn't wavered much. What makes Freemasonry great is that historical link to the past. Without it, we have nothing.


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## JJones (Apr 12, 2015)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Can't agree with your perspective. I have written two stories on this subject which were published in York Rite magazines some 20 years ago. They are not digitized, I'll have to retype and post here, if allowed, sometime. Without people you have nothing.



I like to make informed decisions whenever I can, and to do so I feel it's best to understand both sides of the argument.  I would love the opportunity to read both of your articles at some point.


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## Rifleman1776 (Apr 13, 2015)

I truly believe changes need to be made at all levels to simplfy ritual and make it more meaningful to members.  York Rite has hand movements and things whose meaning is long forgotten by most members. It became comical just trying to get through opening. The three degrees have some pointless rituals, especially when putting degrees. It should not take almost an hour just to open Lodge or Chapter. I'm not Scottish Rite so cannot speak for what happens there. I did speak to a SR group one time and I remember I had to wait outside for a long time before they went to rest to allow me in. Times have changed. It used to be that Lodge was a means of staying in  touch with friends and neighbors, it was the social media. Today we don't need Lodge. Lodge needs us.


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## Zack (Apr 13, 2015)

Rifleman1776 said:


> I truly believe changes need to be made at all levels to simplfy ritual and make it more meaningful to members.  York Rite has hand movements and things whose meaning is long forgotten by most members. It became comical just trying to get through opening. The three degrees have some pointless rituals, especially when putting degrees. It should not take almost an hour just to open Lodge or Chapter. I'm not Scottish Rite so cannot speak for what happens there. I did speak to a SR group one time and I remember I had to wait outside for a long time before they went to rest to allow me in. Times have changed. It used to be that Lodge was a means of staying in  touch with friends and neighbors, it was the social media. Today we don't need Lodge. Lodge needs us.


 

In YOUR opinion!


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## Companion Joe (Apr 13, 2015)

The fact that it isn't dumbed down and simplified is what makes it meaningful. Complete the Companion Adept of the Temple program through the York Rite College. It's very deep and profound in terms of the meaning over ever aspect of YR Masonry. 

As an instructor, I don't see where any movements have been forgotten by members. Every one of the signs, etc. come directly from the degrees. If the opening is comical, then that is on the individual chapter, it's members and High Priest, and your district deputy.  There should be at least one school of instruction in your area each year to make sure everyone is proficient.

If an individual doesn't need Masonry, they are free to leave.


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## JJones (Apr 13, 2015)

Rifleman1776 said:


> It used to be that Lodge was a means of staying in touch with friends and neighbors, it was the social media. Today we don't need Lodge. Lodge needs us.



If lodge was nothing more than a social club then I might..._might_ be inclined to agree with you.  I know personally that I wouldn't be the man that I am today if it wasn't for Freemasonry.  It's lessons, rituals, and symbols have been an important part of my life for most of the decade that I've been a member.

I'm a young man (by masonic standards) and I needed Freemasonry.  Facebook and lodge can't even be compared.


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## Glen Cook (Apr 13, 2015)

Rifleman1776 said:


> I truly believe changes need to be made at all levels to simplfy ritual and make it more meaningful to members.  York Rite has hand movements and things whose meaning is long forgotten by most members. It became comical just trying to get through opening. The three degrees have some pointless rituals, especially when putting degrees. It should not take almost an hour just to open Lodge or Chapter. I'm not Scottish Rite so cannot speak for what happens there. I did speak to a SR group one time and I remember I had to wait outside for a long time before they went to rest to allow me in. Times have changed. It used to be that Lodge was a means of staying in  touch with friends and neighbors, it was the social media. Today we don't need Lodge. Lodge needs us.




  Almost an hour to open?  I'm hard pressed to accept that. 

People don't know what the signs mean?  They are taught in the degrees.  Perhaps the Chapter isn't doing the correct degree work.

Pointless ritual in the symbolic degrees?  I'm unaware of any, and am quite surprised at the notion.


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## KSigMason (Apr 13, 2015)

More than 5 candidates? Why would you do so many at once?!


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## crono782 (Apr 13, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> Almost an hour to open?  I'm hard pressed to accept that.



Shoot, minus presentations, we can open, conduct basic business and close the Chapter in under an hour of need be.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Apr 13, 2015)

Rifleman1776 said:


> The three degrees have some pointless rituals, especially when putting degrees.


Does the sentence "Love doesn't have a point, it has meaning" make sense to you?  If it does consider this sentence, "The degrees of Masonry don't have a point, they have meaning".  If there are parts of the degree work that have no meaning for you, why is that?


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## Glen Cook (Apr 14, 2015)

Rifleman1776 said:


> My concern is declining membership, partly caused by complexity of  ritual. ..,,]
> 
> GAC: and yet, our greatest growth occurred using the same ritual.


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## Rifleman1776 (Apr 14, 2015)

Zack said:


> In YOUR opinion!


 Yes, it is my opinion Masonic rituals need to change to meet today's situation.
It is fact, membership is declining and the purpose of Masonry has changed over the years.
Without change we will keep 100% of nothing. My state has many vacant lodge buildings and some more for sale.


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## crono782 (Apr 14, 2015)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Yes, it is my opinion Masonic rituals need to change to meet today's situation.
> It is fact, membership is declining and the purpose of Masonry has changed over the years.
> Without change we will keep 100% of nothing. My state has many vacant lodge buildings and some more for sale.


Well as Batman said, "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
Sadly, I would rather see dwindling numbers than Freemasonry devolve into a shadow of its former self in order to "survive".


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## MRichard (Apr 14, 2015)

Is the ritual the problem or is there some other reason(s) for the declining numbers? The ritual is the tie that bonds us. When you are first learning the work, it seems like a lot of information to learn. But then you realize that everyone else learned it the same way (depending on your jurisdiction of course), that teaches us that the work can be learned with time, hard work, & patience. I am not sure how much the ritual has changed over the years if any but the ritual is a constant. 

I think the problem lies elsewhere. We can definitely take advantage of the internet to some degree and technology. Some lodges don't like to maintain a webpage. Maybe that is something that should be reconsidered if their numbers are low. Of course, there may be legitimate reasons for doing so as well. I think that having discussions such as this will eventually help the situation. There is probably not a quick fix otherwise, it would have happened already.


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## Glen Cook (Apr 14, 2015)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Yes, it is my opinion Masonic rituals need to change to meet today's situation.
> It is fact, membership is declining and the purpose of Masonry has changed over the years.
> Without change we will keep 100% of nothing. My state has many vacant lodge buildings and some more for sale.



What is the change in purposes you perceive!


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## David N. (Apr 14, 2015)

Sure.  Let's change the Ritual, lower our qualifications, and do away with coaching.  Let's make it easier; that way it's meaningless, but we can let anyone join.
I actually advocate the opposite.  Freemasons used to be the elite of the community.  That's who I wanted to join.  That's why I work so hard at it.  I'm not concerned about keeping aging buildings.  I'm concerned with meeting men I can trust.


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## JJones (Apr 14, 2015)

David N. said:


> Freemasons used to be the elite of the community. That's who I wanted to join. That's why I work so hard at it. I'm not concerned about keeping aging buildings. I'm concerned with meeting men I can trust.



While unintentional, you've summarized my own feelings wonderfully.


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## Roy Vance (Apr 16, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I agree that i dont like the multiple candidate thing.  I've never seen it nor do i personally know anyone that had gone through a degree that way i just know from my SR experience that i took more away from the ones i was the candidate


 In my Mother Lodge we have initiation for only one man at a time, but we can sit multiple cadidates down for the lecture and charge. We have had to do that a few times. We will do it again with the two Brothers (bilogical) that I am teaching now, when we do the FC on them.


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