# The Widow's Sons



## stephenaulds (Feb 29, 2012)

Howdy all,

I've recently bought my first motorcycle, and I'm well on my way to learning to ride it...without falling over. 
Being that Masonry has become an important part of my life, I've being poking around the internet looking for Masons with which to ride, and there's where I found the website for the Widow's Sons Masonic Rider's Association. This seemed like a good group of Masons to hang around with, but then I read that Texas Masons are banned from becoming memebers of this group. Where I'm a Washington Mason, and not a Texas Mason, I was born and raised in Texas (little r) and one day hope to go home and be welcomed into Lodge by my Masonic brothers. Is there anyone here who can give me the real deal about this group, and why they're seen as Irregular?


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## Bill Lins (Feb 29, 2012)

Texas Grand Lodge Law dictates with which Masonic organizations a Texas Mason may affiliate. The Freemasons Riding Club is such an organization. Widow's Sons applied to our Grand Lodge for inclusion a few years back but, due to some unanswered questions, their application was denied.


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## stephenaulds (Feb 29, 2012)

What questions though? And, what was so egregiously wrong with the group that Texas Masons are forbidden to be members? Texas will all ways be my home, and I wouldn't want to associate with a group considered to be clandestine by the Grand Lodge of Texas. Just let me know....  If they're bad guys, I'll look elsewhere for a group to ride with.


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## Bill Lins (Mar 1, 2012)

To begin with, we never could get a straight answer as to whether or not all their members were required to be Master Masons. In addition, in our opinion some of their patches and actions do not reflect favorably upon Masonry when viewed by the general public.

You need to understand that we were not "forbidden" to join them as such- _we_, the members of the Grand Lodge of Texas assembled in Grand Communication, voted to refuse recognition to them as a legitimate Masonic organization.


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## stephenaulds (Mar 1, 2012)

Fair enough. Would I still be welcome in a Texas Lodge if i were a member?


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## Txmason (Mar 1, 2012)

Maybe but I wouldn't take a chance. Join the Freemasons motorcycle club (FMRC). Not widows sons. 

They have a widows sons were I am a member in Mass but being a Texas mason I would not join or associate with them.

Sent from my iPhone using Freemasonry


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## stephenaulds (Mar 1, 2012)

I've contacted the Freemasons motorcycle club, and all I could get from them is "Yes, we have chapters in Washington state, but no, we do not give out information about them to non-members."

I'm not sure how they go about getting anybody to join at all...


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## Txmason (Mar 1, 2012)

Are you a master mason?

Sent from my iPhone using Freemasonry


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## Bill Lins (Mar 1, 2012)

stephenaulds said:


> Fair enough. Would I still be welcome in a Texas Lodge if i were a member?


 
If you are a Master Mason under the obedience of a regular Grand Lodge that is recognized by the Grand Lodge of Texas and your Grand Lodge permits you to belong to the Widows' Sons, then you would be allowed to visit any Texas Lodge. If you wished to become a member of a Texas Lodge, you would first be required to resign from the Widows' Sons.


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## Bill Lins (Mar 1, 2012)

stephenaulds said:


> I've contacted the Freemasons motorcycle club, and all I could get from them is "Yes, we have chapters in Washington state, but no, we do not give out information about them to non-members."
> 
> I'm not sure how they go about getting anybody to join at all...


 
Under the FMRC rules, you are required to join the FMRC national organization and provide proof that you are a Master Mason. Once you have been accepted into FMRC, you may join or form a local chapter.


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## Mac (Mar 1, 2012)

stephenaulds said:


> I've contacted the Freemasons motorcycle club, and all I could get from them is *"Yes, we have chapters in Washington state, but no, we do not give out information about them to non-members."*


That kind of attitude will definitely build all kinds of bridges...


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## stephenaulds (Mar 2, 2012)

TXmason:

Yes, I am a Master Mason. I was Initiated, Pasted and Raised in Lynden International Lodge number 56.

Bill:

I found the registration part of their website shortly after I posted here. I would like to know if there are any established chapters close to where I live prior to proceeding with my application for membership.


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## Txmason (Mar 2, 2012)

I apologize brother! I didn't know that's why I asked. I hope you can find a chapter close to where you live through the FMRC.

Sent from my iPhone using Freemasonry


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## mcr1975 (Mar 2, 2012)

Hi Bro. Stephen (and everyone else too),

I am a Past President of the 3 5 7 Brotherhood Chapter of the Widows Sons in Chicago, IL and can answer some of your questions as well as shed a little light on the organization. First, I would like to acknowledge that the Widows Sons is not the only group of Masonic motorcyclists. There are other local area groups like "Freemasons" and "Bruthaz" although I do not know whether either has a web presence and I am certain neither is in Texas. The Widows Sons, however, is undeniably the group that has been successful in terms of growth, expansion, and recognition. As a result, we have also become a more noticeable target for stereotypes about "bikers" as well as Masonic political mudslinging. Some of the responses have sadly been deserved but the majority have not. The reality is that when most people see bikers, they think trouble makers or even 1%ers. I would argue that our events are well organized and highly Masonic. Most Grand Lodges are quietly watching us and assessing the organization with increasing favoritism. We are a booster organization for Freemasonry and a motorcycle riding association, not a motorcycle club. We are also moving past the traditional biker image and Masons of all shapes, sizes, colors, beliefs, and professions are joining. We are Master Masons and motorcycle enthusiasts first and foremost, Widows Sons second.

The Widows Sons Masonic Motorcycle Association is still a very new organization by Masonic standards being less than 15 years old. We have seen incredible growth; approximately 38 states in the US plus most territories in Canada, and countries ranging from England, Scotland, and Germany to S. Korea, Japan, and Australia, and more. Despite this, our status and popularity varies from one state to another, much like many Masonic organizations.  The Tall Cedars of Lebanon and the Sciots are good examples of other Masonic groups that are also pretty well known and, although not banned, not recognized in every state. Outside of Texas, that is a reasonable comparison. Additionally, the Widows Sons operate at the state level in the US which also leads to variation from one state to the next. We do not have a national body and chapters determine the nature and powers granted to their state-level Grand Chapters. The result is that behavior can be inconsistent.

Several years ago, the Grand Lodge of Texas issued an edict prohibiting Texas Masons from belonging to the Widows Sons organization. To the best of my knowledge, this resulted from cockiness and a stubborn and inappropriate insistence on being recognized by your Grand Lodge. It was never to my knowledge the result of unMasonic behavior of any type on the part of the Texas Widows Sons. They certainly should have been more tactful in the pursuit of their goals but they seem to be good guys overall despite possibly having less than smooth dealings with the GL. 

Masonic bikers will always have an uphill struggle as we learn to play together but we are getting there and the proof is in our success outside of Texas. This sadly doesn't change the fact that we are banned from Texas Masonry but hopefully this too will change as efforts are made to improve and repair heavily damaged relations. I am sure that there are now Masons in Texas who want the ban to remain permanent. It's certainly a challenge to advocate a group once politics have reached this level. However, each and every one of us puts Masonry first so I do not advise pursuing membership in Texas (or any other state if you are a Texas Mason and therefore accountable to their GL). It's hard to be a member of a Masonic organization once the grand Lodge has kicked you out of Freemasonry and that is the unfortunate reality in Texas... for now. As an international organization, we are gaining more an more respect with each day and have been recognized in many states. I am proud to say that our organization was just recognized by the Grand Lodge of Illinois this past year which is a testimony to our movement in the right direction.

There was a comment about some weirdness in Washington but I can tell you that a brother Mason absolutely has the right to contact any chapter and ask questions about membership or simply out of curiosity. I will provide some links below. Best of luck and feel free to email me directly with additional questions. I'll try to respond in a timely fashion.

S & F,
Matt Robinson
Oriental Lodge No. 33, AF&AM
357 Brotherhood Chapter, WS(IL)
Valley of Chicago, AASR
Old Chicago York Rite
mcr1975@gmail.com

Official Widows Sons Website: The Official Homepage of the International Widows Sons Masonic Riders Association, WSMRA since 1998
357 Brotherhood Website: 357 Brotherhood
357 Brotherhood Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Widows-Sons-357-Brotherhood-Chapter/101558933217207
357 Brotherhood Twitter: @357bros


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## Mac (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks, Bro. Matt.  That was a good, factual, and enlightening post!


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## Bill Lins (Mar 3, 2012)

stephenaulds said:


> I would like to know if there are any established chapters close to where I live prior to proceeding with my application for membership.


 
Let me see what I can find out & I'll report back to you on it.


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## stephenaulds (Mar 3, 2012)

Brother Matt,

Thank you for the most honest and well structured response to my questions that I've received thus far. Truth be told, I'm simply looking for a group with which to ride, and would greatly prefer riding with my Masonic brothers over a group of non-Masons, be they Widow's Sons, another group, or simply Brothers from my own Lodge. I'm still extremely new to riding, and could use some good and wholesome instruction on the subject. I'm not interested in politics.  That's not why I bought my bike, and it's also not why I became a Mason. You, much like everyone else I've come into contact with on this site, seem like someone I would be more than happy to ride with, and to have sit beside my in Lodge. It's really more a matter of proximity though as I live in a semi-remote part of the country...it might even be closer for me to cross the border into Canada and find Brother Masons to ride with over there. In any case, you've all been very helpful to me in answering my questions. Thank you.


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## Robert G (Mar 4, 2012)

Here in Florida, the Widows Sons is recognized as a Masonic organization by the Grand Lodge of Florida.


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## K.S. (Mar 23, 2012)

I looked at the widows sons website. Hopefully if you feel the need to join, there is an established chapter in your area. Otherwise you will have to attempt to start one. I do not recommend this, I tried to start a veterans club in my area with a few fellow vet buddies. A harmless, 2 patch, no outlaw club and we had serious problems with the dominant MC in our area, actually they had issues with us (after we told them we had no plans to be an associate club for them, which is all they are looking for to kick money up to them). Even though we assured them that we had zero plans for expansion. THEN, when we met with the veterans MC in the area, let's just say a long painful headache was the outcome. So our plans went straight to the garbage. (Tread lightly on the subject my brother. New clubs or chapters in an area are not welcome. But then again it was in California, an MC hotbed)


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## K.S. (Mar 23, 2012)

An MC is not really a place for someone who has just bought a bike and is learning to ride (widows sons is an RC though). I joined the outlaw vet club in the area, but since have left because it was too outlaw and not enough veteran for me, not to mention it was pitting me against my Masonic values. (on the level brothers)


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## Timothy Fleischer (Mar 28, 2012)

This is from the Texas Grand Lodge website, concerning the Widow's Sons:




January 6, 2011​To the Masons of Texas:

Grand Master’s Edict​   I have been advised that some Texas Masons presently belong to an organization operating under the name of “Widows Sons Masonic Motorcycle Riders Association”. At the 2007 Grand Annual Communication this organization was denied recognition as an organization to which Texas Masons could belong.

   Texas Masons are not permitted to belong to, or be identified with, the organization known as “Widows Sons Masonic Motorcycle Riders Association” unless and until such organization is recognized by the Grand Lodge of Texas, and to do so constitutes a Masonic Disciplinary Violation. This Edict is effective immediately. Acts contrary to this edict will result in Masonic Disciplinary action against the violator.

   This edict is issued to enforce the 2007 decision of the Grand Lodge of Texas concerning the “Widows Sons Masonic Motorcycle Riders Association”.

Sincerely and fraternally,
T. E. “Gene” Carnes
Grand Master of Masons in Texas


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## BryanMaloney (Apr 1, 2012)

The wording of this leads me to a question: Is it typical for a Grand Lodge to regulate all groups to which a Mason of that GL may belong, or does this only apply to groups that purport themselves to be allied to Freemasonry?


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## Bill Lins (Apr 2, 2012)

The Grand Master & Grand Lodge only have authority to regulate membership to those groups which require their members to be Masons.

Last year the then Grand Master issued an edict that Texas Masons could not belong to an organization called the "Confederation of Clubs", which is a group of motorcycle clubs which lobby the Texas Legislature regarding legislation affecting motorcyclists. As CoC does not restrict its membership to Masons only, the GM had no authority to issue such an edict, and it was, thus, invalid. The first part of the statute is quoted below:

*"Art. 225a. Other Organizations, predicating membership **on Masonic membership, recognized.* 

In addition to those organizations recognized in Art. 225, next above, as being entitled to use Lodgerooms and Anterooms of Subordinate Lodges, the Grand Lodge of Texas may recognize and authorize other organizations _which predicate membership on Masonic membership._(italics mine)

Recognition and authorization must take place by approval of the Grand Lodge in Grand Communication. After an organization has been recognized and authorized by the Grand Lodge of Texas in Grand Communication, pursuant to this Art. 225a, Texas Masons may participate in, and be a part of, such organizations."


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## jvarnell (Aug 20, 2012)

As a new Freemason this thread bothers me (EA at this time).  I can see the Grand Lodge of Texas being able to say that the Widows Son is not a reconized Mason orgination in Texas and tell Texas Mason that that it is reconized.  But to tell "Free" Masons they can not belong to an orgination is another thing.  I don't want to cause my self a problem but it strikes me as odd and wish some one would explain it to me.  

I also have been looking for a Msonic RC/MC because I can be insured of the ideals of the members.  I contacted the FMRC and they won't even tell me if there are any groups that meet in the DFW area, but the Widows Son will say where the groups are located.

This sounds like the way the Bandito run stuff.  If you have a 3 part patch/ colors of a club and have not had it aporved by their El hefa it is put on their forbidden list and you have trouble.  I see a defreance in being forbidden and just not being reconized.

Can someone please help me with the this thread it is just one of many I have been reading after becomming a member here.


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## stephenaulds (Aug 20, 2012)

jvarnell,

I'm just as much at a loss for understanding here as you. I just don't get this. It would seem that the Grand Lodge of Texas is taking the Widow's Sons at "face value" in that they see patches, and motorcycles and assume the group to be nefarious in some why. If this is the case, it doesn't sit right with me for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that simply asking a Mason who is a member of this club about it's activities should be enough to gain an understanding of whether they are Masonic, anti-Masonic, or otherwise. Masons which I find to be Regular and on the level are neither in the habit of being untruthful with one another, nor associating with any organization that would bring discredit to the Fraternity.  

As to a "free"-Mason being able to go where he pleases, I would say that you absolutely correct! Once you take your MM degree you will be asked why you became an MM. The answer to that question will support this argument.


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## jvarnell (Aug 20, 2012)

As a EA I am trying to digest the work I am doing.  This seams counter.  I would also like to hear form brothers that have more experance with edicts.  I am "not" a Widows Sons member but just trying to understand this edict when I ran across this thread.


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## stephenaulds (Aug 20, 2012)

It's part of the Obligation of an MM to obey the edicts of his Grand Lodge. That's as it should be in any Regular Lodge. I just can't understand why any Grand Lodge would issue an edict like this. I think the Craft as a whole would benefit from some good and wholesome instruction on the matter.


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## jvarnell (Aug 20, 2012)

Yes


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## Bill Lins (Aug 20, 2012)

Bro. Varnell,

The reason the "Widow's Sons" was not recognized by the Grand Lodge of Texas is because we (the members of the GLoT) felt that their group did not present a favorable image of Masonry to the public. GM Carnes' edict was a reminder to the Brethren that WS was not recognized and, thus, Texas Masons could not belong to it. It was WE, and not the GM, who made the decision not to recognize WS.

The reason FMRC would not answer your questions is that you must be a Master Mason before you can join any Masonically-related organization. EAs & FCs are not eligible. There are FMRC chapters in the Dallas area & I'll be happy to give you contact information for them once you have been raised.


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## BryanMaloney (Aug 20, 2012)

stephenaulds said:


> It's part of the Obligation of an MM to obey the edicts of his Grand Lodge. That's as it should be in any Regular Lodge. I just can't understand why any Grand Lodge would issue an edict like this. I think the Craft as a whole would benefit from some good and wholesome instruction on the matter.


 
How far does this obligation reach, though?


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## Bill Lins (Aug 20, 2012)

If I understand your question correctly, my answer would be that I would obey all _valid & lawful_ edicts issued by the Grand Master. If I know an edict is not valid and lawful, I do not consider myself bound by it. BTW, edicts are only in effect until voted upon by the members of the Grand Lodge at the Grand Annual Communication. The Grand Master must present them to us & explain why he issued them. If we approve them, they remain in effect. If not, they expire immediately.


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## stephenaulds (Aug 20, 2012)

How far does the Obligation of a Master Mason reach? All the way to the Celestial Lodge would be my knee jerk response there. 

On the other hand...

"that cement which unites us into one common band or society of friends, or brothers among whom no contention should ever exist save for that noble contention, or rather emulation of who best can Work, and best agree." 

 I wish I knew more about the widow's sons in Texas, and why it is that Texas Masons are now forbidden to join so that I could have a better understanding on the matter.


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## jvarnell (Aug 21, 2012)

Thank you all for the replies I did not know I was going to cause a problem with my questions but it looks like I have already steped in it.  Also when I was trying to find out about this I was wanting to be a part of a morally up riding org. group that rides and not in name only.  I live in Duncanville and if there is not a FMRC group (that meets) in the south part of Dallas I guess I will have to stay a lone rider.  I know that I can join the FMRC when I am raised,  I was just looking for information for that day.  I don't think that it should be bad to tell people that ask there is a group that meets once a ???? and has about ????? active members near ????? part of town.  When I found 2 groups on the internet claming to be Mosinic RC/MC's I thought that I would find one near me so I could ride with brothers and not be a lone rider any more.  Then I saw the edict and tryed to find out what was wrong with the WS.  I have long hair not as long as Albert Pike but long.   I wear a leather vest when I ride to protect me and it has patches in cluding a one peice large family patch on the back.   I might look bad but it is the internal and not the external my true brothers look at.  As I get older and I am known in the Elecrtic Power business (and the best at it) I can look like I want to in business.  I have been getting closer to the Pike look every day.





I hope it was their actions and not there look that caused the problem.  I also hope I am not causeing problems with The Masons of Texas with my questioning and that my questions are not being taken as being defiant but a true quest for understanding.


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## stephenaulds (Aug 21, 2012)

Don't feel bad Brother. As an EA you're both entitled and expected to ask as many questions as you can think up. It's our responsibility to field your questions with the best possible answers that we can provide. 

It's my personal belief that Masonry should find it's way into every part of a Mason's life be it riding motorcycles, weaving baskets, playing chess, or whatever. Just about every activity that one can do with a group of people is made all the better when done in the company of Masons if only for the fact that, when in the company of Masons, you're in the company of just and up right people.

I would ride with you if I were back home in Texas, but I'm up here in the frozen north. :lol:


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## Bill Lins (Aug 21, 2012)

jvarnell said:


> Thank you all for the replies I did not know I was going to cause a problem with my questions but it looks like I have already steped in it.


 
There is no problem with your questions nor have you stepped in it. (yet. :wink



jvarnell said:


> I saw the edict and tryed to find out what was wrong with the WS.



I think a large part of the problem with the WS was their patch featuring the girl & the "stripper's pole". The vast majority of members of the Grand Lodge (most of whom are not "fans" of motorcycling to begin with) did not consider it appropriate for a Mason to display publicly. It didn't help that the WS Brethren who proposed recognition had already left the auditorium to hit the bars when the subject of the patch came up.



jvarnell said:


> I also hope I am not causeing problems with The Masons of Texas with my questioning and that my questions are not being taken as being defiant but a true quest for understanding.



Not a problem. If my earlier response gave you that idea, I apologize.


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## jvarnell (Aug 22, 2012)

I found 2 Widows son back patches.


The only thing I saw that was questionable was on the Florida chapter web page.  But I don't ride to suport a neet patch and will wair my famaly pacth even if I Join a RC/MC.   The only thing I noticed about the second WS it is a 3 part patch and that has a meaning in the biker world that could get a lone rider wairing this patch hurt. The top rocker or cut is who they are and the bottom rocker or cut is there staked out territory and if it dosen't say a proper place some 1% MC's will think you are disrespecting their area and force you to remove it.  If I had a bottom cut I would put something like Solomons Temple this is territory no one else can clam.  I know the GL has rules but the MC's do also and we are in the world with the 1%er.  The  1%er MC's earn there patches in three parts of patching and don't get the center till they are compleet.  That is why ithe FMRC patch is a very good one it has rockers that are a part of the single patch and it also goes along with having to be a MM before getting it.

The FMRC patch is a very good one also.


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## eagle1966 (Aug 22, 2012)

"I think a large part of the problem with the WS was their patch featuring the girl & the "stripper's pole". The vast majority of members of the Grand Lodge (most of whom are not "fans" of motorcycling to begin with) did not consider it appropriate for a Mason to display publicly. It didn't help that the WS Brethren who proposed recognition had already left the auditorium to hit the bars when the subject of the patch came up."
I take exception to this, I was there and know the brother who made recommendation, he was not there when the revote came up because he ill and not a the bar!   the patch was just a item used by an unhappy group who were denied a chapter because they did not want ot conform to the group but wanted to do thier on thing.  but let us remember " it is the internal not the external..."  know your facts


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## Michaelstedman81 (Aug 22, 2012)

jvarnell said:


> The only thing I saw that was questionable was on the Florida chapter web page.


 
Just like Bro. Bill Lins said, something to do with a patch (or even maybe just a logo of some sort) having something to do with a woman had a part in all of this.  I remember when this stuff came up quite a while back.  I did look around at the time and specifically remember a site that had not only a woman with a stripper pole, but I'm pretty much certain I remember a woman with an exposed breast.  Don't know if it is was part of the patch or if it was just a logo or image meant for their site (it was a prominent feature on the site, I know that...lol).  One reason you may not find anything to do with what myself and Bro. Bill Lins has stated is because the WS MIGHT be trying to meet the GLoT in the middle and change up some of their public images.  Like, they may be actively trying to go about the things they need to do to be removed from the naughty list and become "recognized".  

I don't have ALL the details surrounding the controversy, but I really do believe that the stripper pole girl/half naked girl images were a BIG part of all of this.  I really don't think that it had anything to do with they typical "biker look" of having long hair, facial hair, wearing leather vests with crests on it.  If the primary reason is because of the nudey girl patch/logo, I support what the GLoT did.   Lol don't get me wrong, I like the female body as much as any guy, but I don't like the idea of putting the words "Freemason" or "Mason" on the same patch/logo that has the picture of a half naked chick wearing fishnet stalking and grabbing a stripper pole.  Lol at least not publicly.  This Fraternity is about morals, family, and having standards in life to make our communities and world a better place.  And in my opinion, if you have a group of guys riding around on bikes (whether they look like the typical biker or not, and a bunch of guys on bikes has nothing to do with this opinion itself) with a patch and a website pasted with a picture of a big set of hooters and a stripper pole and a crest that says "Freemason", that takes away from the public's positive look on the Order.

That is just the opinion of this guy, though.  Like I said, I don't know ALL of the details, and can only go off what I have been told, seen and read.  Whether this was the only reason, the primary reason, or if it was just one of many, if the WS do want to make the effort to change what is needed to become recognized and not banned by our GL, I support that.  I welcome the thought of having another organization that is associated with Freemasonry as long as they dive into the Masonic morals and principles and can abide by the governing institutions.


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## jvarnell (Aug 22, 2012)

That all makes good since morals are very important:


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## stephenaulds (Aug 22, 2012)

I don't believe I would support a woman on a stripper pole being placed next to...or anywhere near the GLs. Those two images don't seem to go together in my mind. I wonder though, would the GloT be able to simply instruct the WS to change that image? It seems like a reasonable request. 

On a slightly related note, does anyone know if the Shriners have any sort of rider's group? They've been known to cut lose once in a while.


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## Tx4ever (Aug 22, 2012)

Most Shrine temples have a biker group. Some parade some just ride together


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## Bill Lins (Aug 22, 2012)

stephenaulds said:


> would the GloT be able to simply instruct the WS to change that image? It seems like a reasonable request.



Actually, it works the other way around. WS would have to address the concerns of the GL and then reapply for recognition.


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## tomasball (Aug 24, 2012)

The image doesn't actually have a stripper pole.  The woman depicted on it is wearing something skin-tight...perhaps a leotard.  Shows some cleavage.  She is crouching, and appears to be scratching her head, or adjusting her hair.  The members of the WS who have commented on our concerns about this image say that it depicts their vision of a Mason's widow.  Personally, that is enough information for me to make my decision.

For the information of some new masons who are posting here, the GLoT reserves the right to control the entire Masonic community within its geographic jurisdiction.  No group based on masonic membership can exist without our permission.  Shrine, Scottish Rite, DeMolay, all are subject to our approval.  We enforce that control by agreeing that none of us will join any organizations that the whole group, acting as a Grand Lodge, doesn't vote to approve.  Not all Grand Lodges take that position, but in Texas, you can't set up a masonic organization without getting our okay.  And if we don't approve of it, then it's a violation of masonic discipline to join it.


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## rpbrown (Sep 27, 2012)

Brother Varnell, our lodge (George B. Dealey # 1312) is not a memeber of any of the groups mentioned and not sure we would even entertain the idea (we don't think that you have to ride with a club to ride togeather). We do however have a large number of riders. Granted at this time all are Master Masons but it is not required. Just the love of riding on 2 wheels and most of all the love of Masonry. We have group rides from time to time, including riding to other lodge stated meetings. You are more than welcome to come visit and to ride along with us if you would like.


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## eagle1966 (Sep 30, 2012)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> If I understand your question correctly, my answer would be that I would obey all _valid & lawful_ edicts issued by the Grand Master. If I know an edict is not valid and lawful, I do not consider myself bound by it. BTW, edicts are only in effect until voted upon by the members of the Grand Lodge at the Grand Annual Communication. The Grand Master must present them to us & explain why he issued them. If we approve them, they remain in effect. If not, they expire immediately.



Re; GM edict 2011 concerning Widows Sons; was this considered in Dec 2011 Grand Lodge or as quoted in above post is this edict no longer in effect?


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## Bill Lins (Sep 30, 2012)

No, the edict was approved at Grand Lodge last year.


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## jvarnell (Oct 16, 2012)

rpbrown said:


> Brother Varnell, our lodge (George B. Dealey # 1312) is not a memeber of any of the groups mentioned and not sure we would even entertain the idea (we don't think that you have to ride with a club to ride togeather). We do however have a large number of riders. Granted at this time all are Master Masons but it is not required. Just the love of riding on 2 wheels and most of all the love of Masonry. We have group rides from time to time, including riding to other lodge stated meetings. You are more than welcome to come visit and to ride along with us if you would like.



My line of thought was started when I was at Bikes Blues and BBQ in AR and saw several WS/MC groups from all over had a way of knowing who to hangout with and feel they are brothers and would not cause trouble that I did not want to be around.

Also it looks like your lodge is meeting at another lodges (1314) location.  when do y'all meet?


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## rpbrown (Oct 16, 2012)

Our stated meeting is the 1st Tuesday but we are there almost every Wednesday night (our study night). Yes, we rent from Mike H. Thomas Lodge until we can get another building.


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## jvarnell (Oct 16, 2012)

rpbrown said:


> Our stated meeting is the 1st Tuesday but we are there almost every Wednesday night (our study night). Yes, we rent from Mike H. Thomas Lodge until we can get another building.



Alot of y'all ride?  I will come by some wednesday I am only a FC at this time.


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## mcr1975 (Dec 26, 2012)

@Mac, you are very welcome. I am glad that I was able to assist.
@Stephen, it is always a privilege to ride with other fellow Masons and please do get in touch if you're ever in the Chicago area.
@KS (and others who have confused the categorization), the Widows Sons is a "Riders Association". We're quite simply NOT a Club of any sort. The simplest difference is that we buy our patches and have not done anything to "earn" them other than simply being Freemasons. Our allegiance to the WS is one of friendship and Masonic brotherhood. Nothing more. This is a strong bond but something quite different than what may be expected in an MC. We recognize but don't judge the differences between categories. We simply state who we are and what we do. "We are Masons who ride motorcycles. Masons are active members of the community who believe in civil duty, charity, brotherhood, and God. That is why we ride together." As for setting up a riding group that wears patches, it is not uncommon for the protocol to be determined by the dominant MC in the area. I would advise becoming a regular at neutral riding advocacy group functions such as ABATE if they exist in your area or looking into HOG meetings for Harley riders. Both are a good way to meet members of local groups and to find out the rules in the area. Other Widows Sons chapters and Grand Chapters (in States other than Texas) will also be able to offer counsel. Once there is a Grand Chapter though operating within a State, they are frequently the ones who resolve issues with Clubs, establish what is safe to wear, and then simply inform chapters how to proceed. We have chapters in well over 35 states now so MC's are increasingly familiar with our logos and patches. Finally, many Shrines do have motorcycle groups that are also worth looking into.

Best of luck to everyone though regardless of the path you choose and stay safe!!!

S&F,
Matt Robinson


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## jvarnell (Dec 26, 2012)

the problem is thatTexas dosen't reconize the widios son because some on saw a back patch that was not the main stream back patch  for the WC.  I believe that Texas will never reconize the WS.   The and the RC they will reconize won't publish time and dates of rides to anyone less than a MM.  I gave up wanting to ride with masons.  If I am up in your area I will send you a message and see if your WS chapter is riding.


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## eagle1966 (Dec 26, 2012)

The only recognized motorcycle group in Texas is FreeMasonsRidingClub and this will be the only one ever recognized simply because most of the brethren donot ride and do not understand what it is to ride a motorcycle either alone or with a group of like minded individuals either masonic or not. IMHO


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## crono782 (Dec 26, 2012)

> The only recognized motorcycle group in Texas is FreeMasonsRidingClub and this will be the only one ever recognized simply because most of the brethren donot ride and do not understand what it is to ride a motorcycle either alone or with a group of like minded individuals either masonic or not. IMHO



Either that or they don't watch enough (or too much) Sons of Anarchy.:13:


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## mcr1975 (Dec 26, 2012)

My understanding was that this was a Masons only forum and too much has already been aired in this conversation. To see what I am referring to... [1.] Sign out of this site completely. [2.] Google the email address that you use to log into this page. [3.] Click on the www.masonsoftexas.com link that should appear in the results. You will find that anyone can simply Google YOUR email address to gain access to this site and conversation. This is as PUBLIC as online conversations get. Shouldn't access minimally require membership?


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## tomasball (Dec 26, 2012)

Why would anyone think that anything posted on an internet forum wouldn't be viewed by the public?


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## crono782 (Dec 26, 2012)

Not to be snarky, but I took this directly from the Forum Rules/Guidelines sticky:



> *Masonic Related Rules, Regulations, and Notifications:*
> 
> This website is not sponsored by, endorsed, or related in any way to any Grand Lodge, constituent lodge, or appendant body.
> One of the overall purposes and goals for this community is to provide a place for Masons, their friends and families and those what would like to discuss and learn more about Masonry.
> ...



I think most everybody is aware that this is an open forum. Being open to all is pretty much mission statemen level, hah.


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## Bro_Vick (Dec 26, 2012)

eagle1966 said:


> The only recognized motorcycle group in Texas is FreeMasonsRidingClub and this will be the only one ever recognized simply because most of the brethren donot ride and do not understand what it is to ride a motorcycle either alone or with a group of like minded individuals either masonic or not. IMHO



*Begin Sarcasm*

I am a member of the Directed Energy Professional Society (http://www.deps.org/\) I work with High Energy Lasers in my job and have presented in their conferences (I presented a talk at the last one if anyone wants to see it)

I want to start a Directed Energy Masonic Society, because Directed Energy research is such a part of my life.  We will put the square and compasses on our Laser Eye Protection (LEP) wear, we will put it on our lab coats, and make our own insignia, with the square and compasses, of course.  Then we will come up with our own goals, here they are:

1)  Contribute to the relief of our Widows & Orphans

2)  Raise Masonic Awareness in the world of Directed Energy

3)  Introduce the concepts of Directed Energy to our Masonic Brothers

4)  Support the Blue Lodge through regular attendance, and assisting with or attending lodge events.

Then we are going to apply to the Grand Lodge of Texas to be a recognized Masonic body, what does Directed Energy have to do with Freemasonry?  Who cares?  I like directed energy, it is a big part of my life, and how I make a living.  I think that Masonry should directly embrace it too.

What?  You don't think it is relevant to Freemasonry?

How dare you judge me!  Do you know what it is like to shoot a 50 kW laser at a piece of metal to understand the reflective properties and calculate it's damage zone for retinal damage?  No?  Then how about you stop judging me.

What?  You don't want Directed Energy professionals who don't have a real interest in Freemasonry joining my organization?  How dare you be so judgmental, it is the internal, not the external, man.

*end sarcasm*

You get my point, while you enjoy dressing up in chaps and living an image, it has really nothing to do with Freemasonry.  It is a fad, and is something that comes and goes.  Our Masonic and Fraternal foundation has not changed, and we shouldn't dilute it with something that has no real Masonic connection beyond the members like something, and want to somehow cement it as something Masonic, when really it isn't.

Throw your rocks and be upset, but really I don't see how the Widow's Sons or any other Masonic MC does anything to spread light.  I have the same stance on the Masonic Ragnering Companies that were established.  It is wonderful you are a Texas Ranger (or related to one), that doesn't mean that it should become a Masonic organization.

So please, do enjoy your bikes, and friends.  Wear Masonic insignia on your bike, your vest, helmet, face, whatever.  But don't be upset when we don't want to consider it a Masonic organization.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## tomasball (Dec 26, 2012)

Directed Energy?  You mean like Ley Lines and Pyramid Power?  I'd LOVE to belong to that body!


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## crono782 (Dec 26, 2012)

EDIT: I get that it's not to be taken seriously, but...

Who *wouldn't* wanna shoot 50 kW lasers???
:45:


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## mcr1975 (Dec 26, 2012)

@tomasball and crono782, apparently I ought to have read the mission statement of the forum before posting anything. I happened to simply see the thread so I joined the site and commented because I was in a position to add a little insight to the conversation. It sounds like there is a lot of confusion about the organization as well as the order of events regarding it in Texas and I hoped to help. Frankly, my commentary online is always appropriate for non-Masons as well. I am not from Texas and have nothing to do with Texas Masonry other than to respect your Grand Lodge as the appropriate ruling body in your State. Having said that, whenever Lodge business is discussed it is generally intended to be done behind closed doors. While the majority of the conversations on here appear to be fine, some of this is members-only stuff. Not much but some.

@jvarnell: Thank you for posting actual images of our pages. However, there is no Widows Sons though in Texas so there isn't any way for them to post rides as such. Sort of a Catch-22 at the moment.

@Everyone who is involved in this conversation: 
[1.] The Official Widows Sons website is "http://www.widowssons.com". 
[2.] My chapter website is "http://357brotherhood.org".
[3.] My chapter Facebook page is listed under "Widows Sons 357 Brotherhood Chapter". 
Anyone is more than welcome to request access to and to explore. We offer full transparency and I think you will be quite impressed by what you find. I am not taking a position on the particular politics of the organization's ban in Texas. I simply hope to eliminate some confusion over who and what the actual group is about, the nature of the logos, and absolutely to eliminate any suspicion of our activities or caliber as brothers. We meet on the level and part on the square and are becoming better and better each year.

@michaelstedman81: I cannot speak to individual chapter pages or even most Grand Chapter pages but our logo has never had a stripper. The original Widows Sons logo and center patch is what is frequently referred to as "Elvira". She is a woman with black hair and a red motorcycle racing uniform. I agree that it is non-Masonic and, frankly, would not have joined if I was required to wear it as a logo. The northern States and much of the country in the the last 5 years has gone with the standard "chicken wings" logo which includes the all-seeing eye surrounded by working tools inside a winged triangle with a radiant pyramid forming the top point of said triangle. I would love to see this, or something similar, become the standard Widows Sons logo worldwide. I agree that the square and compass is too direct an advertisement as a primary organization logo. As for strippers, the Illinois State bylaws state that we are not allowed anywhere near a strip club while wearing any Masonic markings. That technically extends beyond clothing to include jewelry. We certainly do not have strippers or exposed anything posted on any Illinois or Official Widows Sons websites as it would reflect poorly on our Grand Lodge, WS Grand Chapter, our individual Chapter, and us as Masons. Having said this, I cannot say what has or hasn't been posted in your State as our organization operates similarly to that of the Grand Lodges which are sovereign from State to State. I also hope that this is not misinterpreted to mean that the group spends a lot of time at this type of establishment. I have been involved for 5 years and have yet to go to a strip club with any fellow Widows Son.

@Bro_Vick: Who exactly was that commentary directed at? It sort of seemed like you were speaking to me but I'm not sure why there was so much hostility or anger. I'm certainly not upset with anyone. I understand your point about not agreeing that there needs to be a Masonic motorcycle organization. I find it a difficult argument for you to make though when we have numerous organizations in the fraternity simply devoted to eating. I suppose the difference is primarily one of numbers. There are a lot of Freemasons worldwide who ride motorcycles so it is natural for us to want to ride together. It's safer to ride in numbers because cars are more likely to see you, more fun to ride with brothers, and since Freemasonry is what unites us, the logical step was for there to be a Masonic motorcycle group. There are, by the way, many and the Widows Sons is not even the oldest. We simply were the most successful in terms of growth and general acceptance. So there is that. And finally, the point of being a Freemason is to carry the lessons into everything you do. No business or recreation is Masonic, per se. But similarly, unless it is immoral, nothing is unMasonic. I certainly have no desire or reason to debate the coolness of our hobbies of choice and am sure lasers can be pretty exciting. As for the Widows Sons in Illinois, we do have a strong relationship with our Grand Lodge and were recognized this year. So I absolutely will enjoy riding motorcycles with fellow Masons and remain grateful for the opportunity to do so. What Texas does really doesn't impact me one way or another. Besides, if you read my prior post I already acknowledged that the WS in your State made errors for which they are now seeing the results. The only point I saw in your post is that you begrudge the Widows Sons and are the one throwing rocks. Perhaps it is warranted. I don't know you or your relation to them in your area but it certainly isn't warranted with me. I have no ill will towards you and am more than happy to have a respectful discourse with you if you wish to discuss privately or through the forum.


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## crono782 (Dec 26, 2012)

Right on. It would be nice if you stuck around! ^_^
I'm still new, so I'm unsure where exactly the "line" is drawn in the context of discussion, but I hadn't seen anything glaring as of yet.


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## mcr1975 (Dec 26, 2012)

@stephenaulds: The Widows Sons are neither bad guys nor are they clandestine. My understanding of the base politics, albeit as a Past President of a WS chapter in Illinois is that mistakes were made in Texas and that the organization was banned because it wasn't convincingly trying to play ball with the Grand Lodge. The reality is that the GL has a lot to manage in any State and doesn't have time for nonsense. While their response may seem hard nosed, it was highly predictable. But, assuming the WS were banned in Texas, this is very different from simply not being recognized. Most Masonic organizations created since the 1950's remain unrecognized. However, once banned, an organization cannot meet in that State. As as organization, members of the Widows Sons are Masons first which means the laws of the Grand Lodge must be respected and obeyed. Texas motorcyclists can make efforts to resolve differences and to begin to appeal the decision but it is not a quick process. Occasionally miracles do occasionally happen and I have learned to never say never. But moving forward, proper respects are critical as is making the effort to reassure the GL that the organization cares about its image and is capable of self-monitoring and maintaining discipline.

@ Bill_Lins77488: The basic rules for regular membership application within the Widows Sons is that a man is already an Entered Apprentice. From the date of acceptance into the organization, he must be or become a Master Mason within 1 year. These rules can be stricter within individual chapters. The 3-5-7 Brotherhood Chapter, to which I belong, similarly requires that applicant are Masons (EA, FC, MM). We vote on whether to accept petitions and those accepted must have attend 3 months worth of meetings and rides in order for us to call a vote on whether to pass them from Petitioner status to Full Membership. 
*Additionally, in order to become an actual member the Petitioner must be a Master Mason. We hold 2 Honorary Member slots available for EA/FC applicants and/or Masons who do not yet have a motorcycle but intend to buy one within the riding season. Most chapters prefer to keep their requirements as lax as possible so that they can gain more members. My chapter wants guys who are likely to get out and ride on the weekends so our membership requirements reflect this.


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## chrmc (Dec 26, 2012)

What I don't understand in this whole discussion is why do masons who like to ride together have to have an officially sanctioned masonic motorcycle club? As others have stated masonry have as little to do with motorcycles as it has with golf, knitting, fly fishing or go-cart racing. And you don't see any of the masons with these hobbies trying to make a club?
What is it that is so compelling and necessary to have the official sanction?


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## Bill Lins (Dec 27, 2012)

mcr1975 said:


> @ Bill_Lins77488: The basic rules for regular membership application within the Widows Sons is that a man is already an Entered Apprentice.



As long as such is the case, WS can forget about getting recognition from GLoT. That policy violates GLoT law & GLoT isn't about to change its law just to suit some motorcycle group. The votes just aren't there.


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## mcr1975 (Dec 27, 2012)

@Bill, The very limited portion of what I wrote that you chose to quote/respond to refers to general requirements for applying to the WS. They can absolutely be modified as needed. I also explained that all WS members are Masons first and that each Grand Chapter is sovereign (ie. accountable only to its GL). Consequently, they have the ability to do whatever they need to in order to satisfy GL requirements. If you would care to explain the GL law you are referencing, I would be very interested in hearing a more detailed explanation. I know next to nothing about about Freemasonry in Texas and would love to learn more.

My understanding of the politics in your State regarding the WS is that the problems have little to nothing to do with either the patch or the group's membership policies. But, since the WS-T were banned (?), whether the GLT would ever recognize them is a moot point. 

Lastly, like you I also see very little to no future for the WS in Texas. Being frowned upon in Masonry is not to be taken lightly and can be a fatal blow if a GL doesn't approve of a group. I know the organization in my backyard but not yours and was neither speaking for nor against them because I do not advocate for anyone or anything I do not know well. I absolutely agree that no GL bends its stated policies to suit a Masonic organization, let alone one that has caused headaches for them.

Either way, I wish you the best and hope you have a successful new year in 2013!!!


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## mcr1975 (Dec 27, 2012)

@chrmc: I am happy to write on this tomorrow but please do a little research of your own regarding Masonic organizations. Your comments demonstrate little appreciation for the nature of Freemasonry as well as it's rich history of creating organizations over the last century for all sorts of interests. Feel free to read about the Medinah Country Club which has hosted numerous profesional golf tournaments. It was built as a private golf club for Chicago's super rich Freemasons. The same group also built the Medinah Athletic Club which they maintained until selling it recently to become the Hotel InterContinental in Chicago. Hell, our Rifle Corp even became the Illinois National Guard.


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## Ed Nelson (Dec 27, 2012)

chrmc said:


> What I don't understand in this whole discussion is why do masons who like to ride together have to have an officially sanctioned masonic motorcycle club? As others have stated masonry have as little to do with motorcycles as it has with golf, knitting, fly fishing or go-cart racing. And you don't see any of the masons with these hobbies trying to make a club?
> What is it that is so compelling and necessary to have the official sanction?



There are many clubs within Masonry that are recognized and sanctioned.

Just within my local Shrine Temple, there is:
*
Bedouins RV Club
**Motorcycle Club
**Yacht Club
**Golf Club
*
All specialized clubs with a common, non-masonic interest, yet you must be a Shriner (and therefor a Master Mason) to join.


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## chrmc (Dec 27, 2012)

@mcr1975 and @Ed Nelson. Thank you for the information about these additional organizations. I was not aware of them as you state. One could almost make the argument that it was a spin-off on the Shriners, and not on blue lodge masonry, but that is a sidetrack to the discussion. 

However I must admit that I do not feel you've answered my question (I see the note that mcr1975 says he'll get back to it) which was "Why do you have this need to have a motorcycle club be an officially sanctioned body?" 
The answer "because somebody else have done it / been allowed to" is not that great and doesn't really give a reason - no offense. 

To me Masonry is something I do to better myself as a man, connect with the ancient mysteries and through there also get some fraternal bonding and do some good in the community. However the masonic part is the main focus. I also enjoy golfing, drinking wine, hunting, watching football etc. and all of this I do with masons or non-masons. However I don't need a masonic drinking, hunting, football club to enjoy it.


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## Bill Lins (Dec 27, 2012)

mcr1975 said:


> @Bill, The very limited portion of what I wrote that you chose to quote/respond to refers to general requirements for applying to the WS. <snip> I would be very interested in hearing a more detailed explanation. I know next to nothing about about Freemasonry in Texas and would love to learn more.



There are two GLoT laws which address this instance, as follows:

*Art. 505. Certain Other Masonic Disciplinary Violations.*
It shall be a Masonic disciplinary violation for a Lodge, a committee or any combination of Masons, or an individual Mason to:
<snip>
22. Participate in, approve, or aid in the formation of any organization predicating its membership on Masonic membership or in the formation of any local chapters or groups, by whatever name called, of any organization predicating membership on Masonic membership. It shall be a Masonic offense for any Texas Mason to be, remain, or continue as, a Member of any organization predicating its membership or affiliation on Masonic membership unless such organization is now currently approved or recognized in Article 225 or Article 225a. (New 2005)

and more directly:

*Art. 439. (476). Examination in Master’s Degree.
*<snip>
3. It shall be unlawful and shall constitute a Masonic disciplinary violation for a Brother who has not passed his examination for proficiency in the Master’s Degree _to apply for_ (italics mine) or receive membership or any degree in any rite, body, order or organization in which membership is predicated upon Masonic affiliation.




mcr1975 said:


> I wish you the best and hope you have a successful new year in 2013!!!



and the same to you & yours, my Brother!


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## Ed Nelson (Dec 27, 2012)

chrmc said:


> @mcr1975 and @Ed Nelson. Thank you for the information about these additional organizations. I was not aware of them as you state. One could almost make the argument that it was a spin-off on the Shriners, and not on blue lodge masonry, but that is a sidetrack to the discussion.
> 
> However I must admit that I do not feel you've answered my question (I see the note that mcr1975 says he'll get back to it) which was "Why do you have this need to have a motorcycle club be an officially sanctioned body?"
> The answer "because somebody else have done it / been allowed to" is not that great and doesn't really give a reason - no offense.
> ...



The short answer is: Why not?

I am very active in Masonry. I choose to surround myself with men with similar interests, values, and ideals.

I could (and have) ride with a different group of people, but Masonry is a very important component of my life, as is motorcycles. There are clearly other men who feel the same way about masonry and motorcycles. Why not combine them and enjoy both?

We say at every gathering that we are Masons first and foremost. It's the Square and Compass patch that unites us, not the Widows Sons patch we wear under it. We are Masons who ride motorcycles, together.


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## jvarnell (Dec 27, 2012)

i am with mcr1975 on this subject.  and want to be a part to an apendent body that is a real RC of the masons.  When I go to Motorcycle rally's in other states I meet many members of the WS.  Seeing there colors I know who I can depend on to have the same moral and ethics as I have.  But being a Mason of Texas I can not ware those colors.  The colors are like waring a ring.  I wonder why a lot of other states Grand lodges don't think haveing the WS as an apended body is wrong.  I am a born Texas and I understand why we know we are better than other states.  the one offical RC of the GLOT says they have members and rides but I can't really find any members execpt by email.  I run into some people wareing the square and compasses on there vestsbut none belong to the one RC the GLOT likes.


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## jvarnell (Dec 27, 2012)

Just a little on the WS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1S_jh10E5Y


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## Bro_Vick (Dec 28, 2012)

mcr1975 said:


> @Bro_Vick: Who exactly was that commentary directed at? It sort of seemed like you were speaking to me but I'm not sure why there was so much hostility or anger. I'm certainly not upset with anyone. I understand your point about not agreeing that there needs to be a Masonic motorcycle organization. I find it a difficult argument for you to make though when we have numerous organizations in the fraternity simply devoted to eating. I suppose the difference is primarily one of numbers. There are a lot of Freemasons worldwide who ride motorcycles so it is natural for us to want to ride together. It's safer to ride in numbers because cars are more likely to see you, more fun to ride with brothers, and since Freemasonry is what unites us, the logical step was for there to be a Masonic motorcycle group. There are, by the way, many and the Widows Sons is not even the oldest. We simply were the most successful in terms of growth and general acceptance. So there is that. And finally, the point of being a Freemason is to carry the lessons into everything you do. No business or recreation is Masonic, per se. But similarly, unless it is immoral, nothing is unMasonic. I



First, let me apologize for coming across as hostile, I was over zealous with my sarcasm, and was not meant as an attack, but more of a point as to the establishment of a Masonic organization based off of ones personal hobbies, or profession.  The post was directed at the topic, not one individual.

Since I have been a Mason a re-occurring debate has been whether the Shrine should still have Masonic ties or be cut lose (see other posts on this forum).  This is an organization with over 340,000 members, has 200 temples across the world and does far more for the global community than any other Masonic organization.  Andrew Hammer in his book, addressed that organizations like the Shrine are diluting Freemasonry and removing men from their focus in Freemasonry, building the internal temple.

Right now we have too many bodies that are loosely based on Masonic values that are dying a slow Masonic death.  These groups were wildly popular when started, but are falling apart.  They are as you alluded to as being supper clubs, with no real Masonic value.  While you are saying "What is the harm of one more?"  I am saying "Do we really need one more?"

While I don't care for Motorcycle culture, I don't understand why it needs to have its own apendent body in Freemasonry, when really it is a trend right now in America.  I hate to say it, but Motorcycle Enthusiasts today may be mocked and laughed at 30 years from now as a passing trend of middle-aged men.  The Widow Sons doesn't spread further light.   The organization doesn't use ritual based teachings to build the internal temple, they are just a bunch of men who get together and like to ride motorcycles.

So with all of the problems with apendent bodies, and ones that do teach, do ritual, do good in the community, and strive to make men better do we need another organization that seemingly wants to be organized, because it can?  What I am getting from you and other proponents is that the Motorcycle enthusiasts sub-culture is so dominate, that there needs to be Masonic representation in this culture.  To which I say "Go forth and represent", but don't expect me to endorse you or any other Masonic MC as an apendent body.

We have problems with politics between Grand Lodges and the Apendent bodies seemingly every year.  Knights Templar, Shrine, etc.  These organizations strive for more than getting a bunch of guys together to wear patches and drive around on two wheels.  Or to promote Masonic ideals to one specific sub-culture.

So respectfully, and honestly, I disagree with the concept of making ones hobby, no matter how engrossing a Masonic apendent body.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## rpbrown (Dec 28, 2012)

In some ways I have to agree with Bro_Vick. 

I do not believe that motorcycle enthusiasts are a passing trend. I have been riding (mostly with the same group of people) for 45 years. Mocked at times, yes. Laughed at, only by those within our group. Now I agree that there are those that are what we call RUB's (rich urban biker) that get a bike and ride around only on weekends, there are a lot more of us that ride because we love it and have been for years.

Now, I do not belong to any MC or RC. I am however, a member of a group of christian riders (MM) that I ride with occasionally. Nor do I believe that you have to belong to a group to enjoy the ride. 

Although it saddens me that the WS would not want to comform to GLoT rules and laws, you don't have to belong to them to carry out the Masonic way of life. Ride or not, we are all brothers and are obligated to each other as such. What is truley sad is that there are those that do not see it this way.

There are several in my lodge that ride. We ride because we enjoy it. Most of us also wear a square and compass on our vests. This is because we are proud to be brothers, not because we belong to a riding club (which we do not). For us, it is no different than wearing a ring, hat, shirt, or to have the square and compass on our vehicle. We sometimes ride as a group but mostly as individual Masons.However, what we do all have in comman is that we are brother Masons and will carry that ideal with us where ever we are.


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## Brent Heilman (Dec 28, 2012)

While I don't ride near as much as I used to I do agree with Bro. Vick. I don't see a need to have a riding club that is an appendant body of the Masonic Fraternity. I think that just have a club that has Masonic ties as a base would be good enough. Why have another body and along with it dues cards, fees, etc.?


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## ardiverdown (Dec 28, 2012)

At the December 2007 Grand Communication, the WS was initially approved recognition by the GLoT. The FMRC was then also approved recognition. Later that morning, a member brought the WS recognition back up for discussion on their recognition. The recognition was then pulled. I specifically remember  the woman patch being a main point brought up and touted. As a result, the WS lost the recognition they had just gained from the GLoT. Just my 2 cents from being there when it happened.


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## jwhoff (Dec 28, 2012)

I, too, was at that session of Grand Lodge and concur with Brother Megason's remembrance.  Since that time there has been little tolerance, right or wrong, for masonic motorcycle groups.  

Question, can a brother motorcycle enthusiast purchase a masonic Texas license plate for his motorcycle?  If so, what do you feel is the key reason why WS and Ruffians are in disfavor?


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## Bill Lins (Dec 28, 2012)

jwhoff said:


> I, too, was at that session of Grand Lodge and concur with Brother Megason's remembrance.



As do I. 



jwhoff said:


> Question, can a brother motorcycle enthusiast purchase a masonic Texas license plate for his motorcycle?



Yes.



jwhoff said:


> If so, what do you feel is the key reason why WS and Ruffians are in disfavor?



When FMRC applied, they made every effort to show GLoT that they were good guys and presented a positive image of Masonry to the public. As far as I can tell, WS & Ruffians did not put out the same effort nor did they make a good impression. Not doing the legwork beforehand & making sure your organization conforms to GL law is a guaranteed way to fail. Requiring black leather vests/jackets & doing your best to emulate a 1% club (3-piece patches, etc.) does not present a positive visual image to the general public.


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## jwhoff (Dec 28, 2012)

I, too, was uncomfortable with the three patches.  So far as I know, the only time masons in Texas were allowed to ware EA and FC recognition was during the 2007 year of Right Worshipful Donny Broughton.  I was lucky enough to have the Grand Master himself pin both on my lapel during two of his visits to Houston that year.  

Still, the absolute pinnacle of my masonic life to this date.   In deference to several of the older brothers in my lodge, I did not ware them at stated meetings. But there are pictures of receiving them on my study wall and they are both prominently displayed in a masonic case and will be handed down to the following generations.  

As I told you the night we met at Grand Lodge, I was quite proud of the young brother who brought up the motion of recognition of the Ruffians who came back up and withdrew his motion says that there were issues brought up that he had not contemplated.  To me, he is a mason's mason.


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## LRG (Jan 4, 2013)

Safety vests with your lodges name and s/c would seperate the Master Mason from that 1% sterotype.


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## rpbrown (Jan 5, 2013)

Now there are those that want to regulate what I wear or ride.

 I wear a black leather vest with the square and compass on the back with Mason above and AF & AM below. Again, I do not belong to any orginization other than my ble lodge and the Scottish Rite. These vests are worn only by Master Masons and have been worn for all to see at the family day in Arlington for the last 3 years. WE were even selling them for a fundraiser for our lodge.

The leather vest is for somewhat of body protection in case of an accident. The embroidery is made of a gold reflective thread. Therefore it is a much for safety as anything.

I thought that a mason was to be judged by what was on the inside and not on his outward appearance. It seems there are some that want to judge me differently because I ride a motorcycle and wear a black leather vest. Perhaps those are the ones that need to be judged.


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## LRG (Jan 5, 2013)

It is more what the public views us as.


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## scialytic (Jan 6, 2013)

crono782 said:


> EDIT: I get that it's not to be taken seriously, but...
> 
> Who *wouldn't* wanna shoot 50 kW lasers???
> :45:



Anything with "pew-pews" in the title has a special place in my heart...

[h=1]"Rheinmetall 50kW laser weapon aces latest test, pew-pews a 3-inch ballistic target"[/h]
http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/21/rheinmetall-50kw-laser-weapon-aces-latest-test/

Another interesting thing to think about is that the current generations view us with a bit of...well...disinterest. A lot of this has to do with the change in times, advent of of unbelievably accessible technology, and access to a large portion of any of our secrets via a web search (so they believe). This doesn't mean that they will remain disinterested when they meet a Mason somewhere after their niece recently had a successful surgery at the Scottish Rite Hospital. It just isn't the same as it was thirty years ago when word spread about the great deeds of good men. 

I personally think that how we are perceived by the community is more important now that it ever was. We are truly a society suffering from "attention deficit disorder" (no offense to anyone suffering from ADD). It is imperative for the continued success of this Fraternity that we make effective first-impressions. Now, I'm not saying that S&C flags in a convoy of bikes isn't the right impression...but we really need to be cognizant of the fact: The people you see from day-to-day may never make another conscious connection to the Fraternity...so go out of your way to make it an impressive one!


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## Bro_Vick (Jan 6, 2013)

scialytic said:


> Anything with "pew-pews" in the title has a special place in my heart...
> 
> [h=1]"Rheinmetall 50kW laser weapon aces latest test, pew-pews a 3-inch ballistic target"[/h]
> http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/21/rheinmetall-50kw-laser-weapon-aces-latest-test/



That's it?  We have a Terrawatt Laser, granted it lasts in the picosecods, but still! 

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## scialytic (Jan 6, 2013)

bro_vick said:


> that's it?  We have a terrawatt laser, granted it lasts in the picosecods, but still!
> 
> s&f,
> -bro vick



pew-pew!!! :1:


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## rpbrown (Jan 6, 2013)

So I was accepted in my lodge while I rode a motorcycle but now I am no konger accepted for the same reason. I am no different now than I was then but I guess I am fortunate that I did not petition a lodge that some of you belong to. Seems you think you are somewhat better than the rest of us.

The knowledge that I am recieving here is truely not what I thought the brotherhood of masonry was about. Love my lodge and was accepted in all that I have visited in my journey, but guess I would be turned away from some of yours if I rode up on a motorcycle. Those that really feel that way, I am sorry that I offend you but I am just me. You are still welcome in my lodge any day.


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## Mac (Jan 6, 2013)

We have several brethren who arrive at my Lodge on two wheels (when the weather is convenient).  I have no issue with it.

Of course, I guess I probably fit one of the stereotypes mentioned above.  I've always wanted a motorcycle, just never had the chance or funds.  I would get one after graduation if my boss allowed it...


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## rpbrown (Jan 6, 2013)

The thing is, I rode a motorcyle long before I became a Mason. Never joined a M/C as I always believed that I did not have to belong to be able to ride.

I joined masonry because it is supposed to make good men better and I believe in most cases do. However, there are those that think the better it made them is better than anyone else.

Do I think we need the WS or Roughians, or even the MC, No. But as I said in an earlier post, there are those that do but they must conform to the laws of GLoT and it is sad that they would come in and not want to follow these laws an expect to be welcome. But it was their choice to do so and the vote of the GLoT was to not admit them.

However, I am an independent rider that happens to be a Mason. I am no different on my bike than I am in m truck. But I took an obligation and in that obligation it says (paraphrasing here) we are not to talk bad about another mason, and I am being judged by some here because I ride a bike. Thats like me lookong down y nose at them in their (insert vehicle of choice here). It is WRONG to do so and against the general intentions of the obligation.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 6, 2013)

Bro. Brown,

You either totally misunderstand what has been posted above or you are being deliberately obtuse. 

The point those Brethren are trying to make is that THE GENERAL PUBLIC, i.e. "the profane" tend to regard motorcyclists wearing black leather as "bad guys". In addition, the real outlaw clubs, a.k.a. "1%'ers", look askance at those "wannabes" who wear black leather with 3-piece patches. It's a good way to collect an a$$-whipping, or worse. For that specific reason the FMRC forbids them, in addition to geographically-worded patches and those which say "Nomad(s)".

One of the objections brought up @ Grand Lodge regarding the "Ruffians" club is that the word "ruffian", while having a specific meaning to Masons, has an entirely different and derogatory meaning to the public at large.

Neither I nor the majority of my Brethren would turn you away from our Lodge once we knew you were a Brother. However, we are cognizant that the profane DO judge us by our appearance, and the "outlaw" look is not the impression we, as Masons, wish to give them.

I, too, have been riding since long before I became a Mason. Whether I am on my bike or in my truck (both of which have the Square & Compasses on them), I always try to remember that I am a Mason, and do my best to leave a positive impression on those I meet, regardless of the circumstances. I believe it is incumbent upon all of us, riders or not, to do the same.


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## rpbrown (Jan 7, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Bro. Brown,
> 
> You either totally misunderstand what has been posted above or you are being deliberately obtuse.
> 
> ...




Although I agree with most of what you have said here, I am in "the public" all of the time and most of the time I am wearing either my Masons vest or my Fellowship Riders vest. Both of which are leather and neither support an area. We (as in those that wear either vests that I ride with) show nothing but a Christian and Masonic attitude. We have been to rallies and to events all over this great nation where the 1% clubs are. Not once have we ever been bothered by them. As for the general public regarding us a "outlaws", in all cases they seem to be relieved that we are Masons or Christians. There is protocal for wearing a vest in public and you have to know and understand that protocal.

I do agree with the issue of the "ruffians" and can understand what can and probably would be percieved and had similar thoughts when I heard they were going to try to gain acceptance into the GLoT. I had the same issues about 'Widows Sons" and how they would be percieved.

The one statement that you made that I do not agree with or maybe I misunderstood your intentions, was that I would be welcome in most lodges once you knew I was a brother. I have an issue with this. Isn't this maybe costing some membership into our fraternaty? What about a rider that would come to lodge (on a motorcycle) looking to become a Mason? Is he less deserving because he rides a motorcycle. Would he be turned away because he wore a leather vest with a few patches on it? Thankfully, I can say our lodge did not turn these men away or I would not be a Mason today as I rode up to my lodge and visited on many occassions before I was accepted. What about your lodge? 

This could be said for those that ride, have a different car, those of a different faith, color, or financial status. I think it is time for all of us to do some soul searching and remember what being a Mason is all about.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 7, 2013)

rpbrown said:


> As for the general public regarding us a "outlaws", in all cases *they seem to be relieved* that we are Masons or Christians.



Precisely the point, my Brother- what was their _initial_ reaction? _That _is what we need to avoid. To assume that all who have that reaction go to the trouble of looking further is, I believe, an error- one which hurts us, both as motorcyclists _and_ as Masons.


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## jvarnell (Jan 8, 2013)

The problem is not that one needs to belong to a RC to be a mason rider but that the GLoT made the statment that a Texas Mason could not belong to the Widows Son RC.  If they would have just said the the WS is not a reconized Masonic org. and Texas Masons should not support the patches that cast a bad light on the Masons.  Like someone else here said we still ware a square and compasses patch on our vests so should the GLoT have just  said at Bad WS patches will not be able to be worn.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 8, 2013)

As has been stated earlier in this thread, that's just not the way it works.


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## chrmc (Jan 8, 2013)

jvarnell said:


> The problem is not that one needs to belong to a RC to be a mason rider but that the GLoT made the statment that a Texas Mason could not belong to the Widows Son RC.  If they would have just said the the WS is not a reconized Masonic org. and Texas Masons should not support the patches that cast a bad light on the Masons.  Like someone else here said we still ware a square and compasses patch on our vests so should the GLoT have just  said at Bad WS patches will not be able to be worn.



I know what you mean, but if you pretend to be a masonic organization without being sanctioned you are in fact clandestine. If WS is allowed to do this, where is the line drawn?


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## scialytic (Jan 9, 2013)

jvarnell said:


> The problem is not that one needs to belong to a RC to be a mason rider but that the GLoT made the statment that a Texas Mason could not belong to the Widows Son RC.  If they would have just said the the WS is not a reconized Masonic org. and Texas Masons should not support the patches that cast a bad light on the Masons.  Like someone else here said we still ware a square and compasses patch on our vests so should the GLoT have just  said at Bad WS patches will not be able to be worn.



They would be fine as long as they didn't predicate membership on being a Mason. That is when you step into the respective Grand Lodge jurisdiction. And, as mentioned three or four times in this post, they would be clandestine without GL recognition, etc. and so would you if you were part of the organization in any way (including being in communicatione).


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## jvarnell (Jan 10, 2013)

So why does the GLoT not see that the WS are not clandestine in many states.  From what I see is that GLoT is just not liking a center back patch that has only been sean in Florida.

I am just trying to understand the politics of this.  Every time I try to use comman since when looking at the declration of the GLoT I only see I am being told that I can not reconize masons of other states just because they ware the patch of the WS and not due examination.  In my thougths this is like in the past a man putting on a Union uniform in Texas and reciving Disciplinary action for the GLoT for doing so.


"------------
January 6, 2011​To the Masons of Texas:

Grand Master’s Edict​I have been advised that some Texas Masons presently belong to an organization operating under the name of “Widows Sons Masonic Motorcycle Riders Association”. At the 2007 Grand Annual Communication this organization was denied recognition as an organization to which Texas Masons could belong.

Texas Masons are not permitted to belong to, or be identified with, the organization known as “Widows Sons Masonic Motorcycle Riders Association” unless and until such organization is recognized by the Grand Lodge of Texas, and to do so constitutes a Masonic Disciplinary Violation. This Edict is effective immediately. Acts contrary to this edict will result in Masonic Disciplinary action against the violator.

This edict is issued to enforce the 2007 decision of the Grand Lodge of Texas concerning the “Widows Sons Masonic Motorcycle Riders Association”.

Sincerely and fraternally,
T. E. “Gene” Carnes
Grand Master of Masons in Texas

------------"
If I had not read this I would have never thought or said anything about this group.  I was looking for a Masonic riding group and found two the first one I contactedwas the FMRC was very stand offish.  The Widows Sons Of Missouri (Solomons Tribe - Lebenon) I meet riding in Arkansas made me feel at home riding with them.

My hope from continuing this thread is to understand the thoughts behind the rules and editcs of the GLoT.  I was not in the military and never held to the old adage "Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do or die".  I reason why!   reason = wonder for those younger than 50.


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## scialytic (Jan 10, 2013)

The GLoT does consider Widows Sons clandestine as they weren't recognized and still predicate membership on Masonic Initiation. It also means that the group in other states are viewed exactly the same. It is analogous to the issue with Princ Hall Affiliation. If I travel to Washington where PHA is recognized and visitation is permitted, I cannot visit a PHA Lodge because in my jurisdiction (Texas) it is not allowed.

If you are indeed riding with Widows Sons as a Texas Mason, you are violating A Masonic Edict. <Whispers in ear> I would recommend that you refrain from doing that (if you are, I may have misread your post).

It may suck...but it is, what it is...


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## jvarnell (Jan 10, 2013)

I only did once in Arkansas as I rode the pig trail.  I was the only non-WS following the leader of the ride.  I am not sure many new I was there but the back patch I suport is a famly patch from Alsasse-Lorrain area.


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## jvarnell (Jan 10, 2013)

jvarnell said:


> I only did once in Arkansas as I rode the pig trail. I was the only non-WS following the leader of the ride. I am not sure many new I was there but the back patch I suport is a famly patch from Alsasse-Lorrain area.
> View attachment 2754



If any of you have a problem of a non-Scotish rite wearing that patch I was wairing it 10 years before becomming a Mason and had no knolage the "cross of lorraine" was a symble some one would say something about.

The symbliasm is "on earth as in heaven" like in the Lords Prayer or as above below in other translations.


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## jvarnell (Jan 10, 2013)

After thinking about what I said in the privous posts, I think it is odd to have to hide the knowlage you know and assoiate with a person that is a Master Mason.  I don't ware their colors and may never but me of my own free will and acord want to ride with them as men of good moral character can causes a problem.  I am not a felon, I have lived a life striving to be the best I could be, being inlightened in Masonary and someone tells me I can't ride with them because they ware the colors of the WSRC and is not reconized in Texas....(but reconized in other states).....Hmmmmm  I just don't know what to think at this point.


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## Colby K (Jan 10, 2013)

Did you look into Temple Guard (http://www.templeguardmc.com/). I just joined. I don't know how much of a presence we have in Texas but I know we do have members there. You will have to provide proof that you are master mason for TGMC as well.

Also, the TGMC only has a two piece patch instead of three piece.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 11, 2013)

Yet again- Texas Masons would need to check & see if TGMC is approved to be associated with.


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## Mac (Jan 11, 2013)

Based on the website, it looks like the Temple Guard also allows EAs and FCs to join.  Though I assume this can be modified to meet local requirements.  And, as mentioned, they would have to be recognized by the GLoT.


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## Bro_Vick (Jan 11, 2013)

Colby K said:


> Did you look into Temple Guard (http://www.templeguardmc.com/). I just joined. I don't know how much of a presence we have in Texas but I know we do have members there. You will have to provide proof that you are master mason for TGMC as well.
> 
> Also, the TGMC only has a two piece patch instead of three piece.



Any website that has music on it, is an automatic failure in my opinion, also the typos are not cool.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## Bro_Vick (Jan 11, 2013)

rpbrown said:


> I thought that a mason was to be judged by what was on the inside and not on his outward appearance. It seems there are some that want to judge me differently because I ride a motorcycle and wear a black leather vest. Perhaps those are the ones that need to be judged.



Okay, this is going to be the last time I am going to write a statement on this "it is the inner not the outer" line.  I completely agree that as Masons we need to judge the internal and not the external.  That if a man who is a janitor or ditch digger comes into a lodge to join, we have to purely judge him on his internal merits and not profession.  That man should not be denied the light of Freemasonry because of their appearance (relating to their occupation), and status in society.  This is an endearing quality makes it so Freemasonry has safety guards not to turn into a good 'ol boy club or encourage mercenary motives for joining.  To say nothing of the great diversity it brings our fraternity.

You have made the choice outside of your occupation to ride a motorcycle and dress the part.  You dress according to the norm and standards of a culture that you most likely aren't dependent on for income.  If people make active statements regarding their clothing, tattoos, and piercings, than I and others will judge you as such.  You made the active choice to wear the leather vest, wear patches, look like a tough guy.  I know you have a choice as I have a great co-worker, and he rides a motorcycle.  He in no way dresses that way when riding, so, no you don't have to dress that way. 

So you can't have your cake and eat it to, if you don't want us to judge you on your appearance on something that you have complete control over than you need to weigh that when entering a lodge.  Yes, my mother lodge has great brothers who ride motorcycles and play the part, but don't think that they don't know that if they make an active choice to dress a certain way, that men are going to judge them for that choice.

You need to weigh it, and I have no problem with people judging me, as this page and comments made towards me people have accused me of all sorts of things.  But a matter of fact of society is that we do judge people to some degree on their outer appearance, especially if they make the active choice to dress that way.

Hopefully this is not too offensive, but I see a double standard being applied here, and it bothers me.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## jvarnell (Jan 11, 2013)

Bro_Vick said:


> Okay, this is going to be the last time I am going to write a statement on this "it is the inner not the outer" line. I completely agree that as Masons we need to judge the internal and not the external. That if a man who is a janitor or ditch digger comes into a lodge to join, we have to purely judge him on his internal merits and not profession. That man should not be denied the light of Freemasonry because of their appearance (relating to their occupation), and status in society. This is an endearing quality makes it so Freemasonry has safety guards not to turn into a good 'ol boy club or encourage mercenary motives for joining. To say nothing of the great diversity it brings our fraternity.
> 
> You have made the choice outside of your occupation to ride a motorcycle and dress the part. You dress according to the norm and standards of a culture that you most likely aren't dependent on for income. If people make active statements regarding their clothing, tattoos, and piercings, than I and others will judge you as such. You made the active choice to wear the leather vest, wear patches, look like a tough guy. I know you have a choice as I have a great co-worker, and he rides a motorcycle. He in no way dresses that way when riding, so, no you don't have to dress that way.
> 
> ...



When I was young I was I wore close my parants told me to ware (Slacks and collor shirt and sundays suit).  When I was a teenager I wore Blue Jeans and t-shirts.  When I started into bussiness I wore bussiness close.  I was building embedded controls and writeing code that controls power plants, and equpment in the electric system. and that is when I found out it was the internal.  I was on call and would have to come in all times of the day or night wareing what ever I was wareing we had a SLA of 15 min. in the power industery.  I worked quicker when I had shorts or blue jeans or what ever.  I went to my manager one day and ask what it would take for me to move in to managment and he said "you are a techie and you will aways be a techie".  I replyed with the words bull shit.  I quit wareing the bussiness monster uniform I grew my hair long to force them to fire me, but that backfired when they told me I was an over achiver and no mater how grundge I got they could not replace me and they need me as a techie.  I had made a name for my self in the industery and another company came to me and said they would make me a manager and they liked my long hair.  I am now a Director for that other company and still don't dress the part.  Everyone that has got to know me knows that it is there loss if they care how I look and not mine.  I think your co-worker can have his cake and eat it to if he is secure in knowlage.  I was told by one of the costmers I interface with that I was like Sampson and if I cut my hair to much I might loose my bussiness abalities.  If someone judges based on looks they are the looser in life and may not be as sucsessful as they could be.  I do have and ware 10 suits, 2 tuxes but it is when I want to and not to just look like everyone else there.  Which picture is me all of these including my avatar.


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## jvarnell (Jan 11, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Yet again- Texas Masons would need to check & see if TGMC is approved to be associated with.




This is what the TGMC says and this is why the GLoT statment cause me constranations.
"
We are the TEMPLE GUARD MC, a Masonic Motorcycle Club made up of Master Masons, Fellow Craft and Entered Apprentice who just happen to be Brothers who share the love and enjoyment of motorcycles. The TEMPLE GUARD MC is not governed by any Grand Lodge as a club. As Master Masons we are governed by each of our Grand Lodges of the state or country in which we belong. The TEMPLE GUARD MC are Brothers who takes their Colors seriously. We are a Masonic Motorcycle Club with traditional motorcycle values. It's a lifestyle to us, not a hobby. A TEMPLE GUARD MC patch is something you cannot buy. We are Proud of what we represent. All TEMPLE GUARD MC members are Bikers who belong to the oldest fraternity in the world and we are true to our Masonic and TEMPLE GUARD MC Brothers. We are not 1%'ers and we do not claim any territory. Masons are World wide.
"
and the words of the GLoT that says 
"---------Texas Masons are not permitted to belong to, or be identified with, the organization known as “Widows Sons Masonic Motorcycle Riders Association” unless and until such organization is recognized by the Grand Lodge of Texas, and to do so constitutes a Masonic Disciplinary Violation. This Edict is effective immediately. Acts contrary to this edict will result in Masonic Disciplinary action against the violator.
------------"

The word's "permitted to belong to, or be identified with" are very strong when motorcycle groups have statments like TGMC.  Is there some sort of precived lack of morality and is this based on external?  I really need for someone to look at me and tell me if I am a good person or not just by my looks.  I know you can not.

When I am riding I can look at the vest's of other riders and know who is who.  If you see a Masonic symble  on one you can at least know they maybe someone you may want to hang out with.  If they have a 1% dimond and it will be a dimand you don't want to even acknolage them.  MC, RC and indivuals ware there alligens on there vest because they are proud to be a part of that group.  the Blue Knights (Police), The dragen slayers (fire department) and  the Canceler's (postman) all are proud to be who they are and ware it on there vests.  Are Masons not proude of who they are?
http://www.blueknightstx39.org/Welcome.html
http://www.dragonslayersmc.com/
http://www.cancellersrc.com/

I am sorry if it looks like I am fighting but it is hard to brake through old ideas.


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## Bro_Vick (Jan 11, 2013)

jvarnell said:


> When I was young I was I wore close my parants told me to ware (Slacks and collor shirt and sundays suit).  When I was a teenager I wore Blue Jeans and t-shirts.  When I started into bussiness I wore bussiness close.  I was building embedded controls and writeing code that controls power plants, and equpment in the electric system. and that is when I found out it was the internal.  I was on call and would have to come in all times of the day or night wareing what ever I was wareing we had a SLA of 15 min. in the power industery.  I worked quicker when I had shorts or blue jeans or what ever.  I went to my manager one day and ask what it would take for me to move in to managment and he said "you are a techie and you will aways be a techie".  I replyed with the words bull shit.  I quit wareing the bussiness monster uniform I grew my hair long to force them to fire me, but that backfired when they told me I was an over achiver and no mater how grundge I got they could not replace me and they need me as a techie.  I had made a name for my self in the industery and another company came to me and said they would make me a manager and they liked my long hair.  I am now a Director for that other company and still don't dress the part.  Everyone that has got to know me knows that it is there loss if they care how I look and not mine.  I think your co-worker can have his cake and eat it to if he is secure in knowlage.  I was told by one of the costmers I interface with that I was like Sampson and if I cut my hair to much I might loose my bussiness abalities.  If someone judges based on looks they are the looser in life and may not be as sucsessful as they could be.  I do have and ware 10 suits, 2 tuxes but it is when I want to and not to just look like everyone else there.  Which picture is me all of these including my avatar.



I have no idea what the point of this was, but to tell me that you don't conform, but want to conform to a motorcycle club, because you are not a conformist.

Got it.

If you can't see the hypocrisy in all of this, then there really isn't a need to continue the conversation.  Congratulations on all of your successes, I guess that is what you are looking for with this long diatribe and posting pictures of yourself.


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## jvarnell (Jan 11, 2013)

Bro_Vick said:


> I have no idea what the point of this was, but to tell me that you don't conform, but want to conform to a motorcycle club, because you are not a conformist.
> 
> Got it.
> 
> If you can't see the hypocrisy in all of this, then there really isn't a need to continue the conversation. Congratulations on all of your successes, I guess that is what you are looking for with this long diatribe and posting pictures of yourself.



Reread you post you have a peice in there about judging on looks.... The point is....I do have cake and I am eating it right now.. and you are missing out I would share it with you if but I have been judged not that I can't have cake...  

Throwing the word Hyprocriy at me tells me you are grasping at straws.

No hypocrisy here just a deferent point of view I am proud of being a Motorcyclest and Mason.  I show and tell everyone what I am proud of that is why I ware the back patch I do.  It is a Family emblem!  Why can't everyone not be afrade to show their pride in Masonary by belonging to the Mosinic RC that they chose.  The statment by the GLoT says you have to belong to the RC we say and if you want to belong to anyother you can be disiplined.

If I were to join the the police department and then join the Blue Knights and put a mosinic patch on my vest I would not be disiplined.

I can take the pictures off if you would like, but they were to show you people have many was of dress and outward aperance for you to judge as bad that is why it is the internal and the external.  To see the internal you have to get to know someone because it can not be pre-judged.

I was not attacking anything except the way the edict was worded agenst the WS and it is very unfortunate that it was worded the way it was.  At this time I do regulator in the energy industery and if I had ever worded something like that FERC would have come down on me like a ton of bricks.  Also judging someone for their typo's. don't look at my post they call me mr. typo.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 12, 2013)

Bro. Varnell,

The Grand Lodge of Texas, just like every other Grand Lodge, is a *voluntary *organization and, just like any other organization, has rules & a code of conduct for its members. The simple answer is that, if one feels he cannot abide by the rules of an organization he *voluntarily *chose to join,his only honorable course of action is to resign from the organization.


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## jvarnell (Jan 12, 2013)

I guess I don't understand how a foram works!  I always thought they were to insite discustion and when I see a thread that people are saying something that makes me wonder if only some ideas are being discused I try to enter other point of views.  I know it is voluntary I also know that words like disiplined are word that make people beleive they are being lorded over.  The way i would have worded it is that the WS is not a reconized orgination, then stated a list of of why.  I would have also stated that as a Mason we should not be a part of this group untill they are reconized and left it at that.  The word Disiplined is not a word normilay use by volintary orgs.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 12, 2013)

jvarnell said:


> I know it is voluntary I also know that words like disiplined are word that make people beleive they are being lorded over.


 
That entirely depends upon one's outlook.



jvarnell said:


> The word Disiplined is not a word normilay use by volintary orgs.



No one ever claimed that Freemasonry is a "normal" organization. Instead of complaining about the things you perceive to be wrong with the Fraternity, you would be well advised to apply yourself to your studies. As you gain in Masonic knowledge you will begin to learn why we do things the way we do, and you should begin to understand why Freemasonry is different from the other organizations with which you are familiar.


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## jvarnell (Jan 13, 2013)

I do try to apply what i have learned always. And i know freemasonary teaches us a how to present our self's.  One of the  things i have learned it is the internal and if i ware the colors of a masonic riding club everyone in that circle know from a glance  who we are and what we stand for. 

Also i know what the word free means and it is us by our usa founding father who were masons.  Displinary action for free assocation was not in any of the thing they wrote.  The ws is a group of mosinic brothers in many states that ride together.  They do have a patch to show others they are a group of masonic brothers.  

The problem i see is that they ASKED to be reconized by the GLoT.   The GLoT could has just said no we don'tthink they symbloise what we stand for.  But displnary action for free assocation!


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## BryanMaloney (Jan 13, 2013)

Discipline is part of a free association--or are you saying that, if someone within the Masons decided to openly frequent prostitutes while advertising that he was a Mason, it would be improper for the fraternity to take action on that?


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## scialytic (Jan 13, 2013)

jvarnell said:


> I do try to apply what i have learned always. And i know freemasonary teaches us a how to present our self's.  One of the  things i have learned it is the internal and if i ware the colors of a masonic riding club everyone in that circle know from a glance  who we are and what we stand for.
> 
> Also i know what the word free means and it is us by our usa founding father who were masons.  Displinary action for free assocation was not in any of the thing they wrote.  The ws is a group of mosinic brothers in many states that ride together.  They do have a patch to show others they are a group of masonic brothers.
> 
> The problem i see is that they ASKED to be reconized by the GLoT.   The GLoT could has just said no we don'tthink they symbloise what we stand for.  But displnary action for free assocation!



I've been watching this discussion for some time now. What strikes me as absurd is that a young Brother like yourself has not taken heed to the guidance from our more mature Brothers that frequent this forum. The same points have been explained several times over. That was disconcerting in itself, but to see you write so glibly about edicts from our Most Worshipful Grand Masters and laws voted into place by the Past Masters, sitting Masters, and Wardens of our Texas Lodges is incredulous. It appears that you are having difficulty conforming to the rules, regulations, and customs of our beloved Fraternity. 

If a Brother in my Lodge refused to heed the good counsel whispered into his ear and continue to act refractory and argumentative when approached with sage advice, I would likely protest that he (if not a Master Mason already) not be Raised to the Sublime Degree of a Master Mason and afford him more time to learn his working tools. If he was a Master Mason, I would strongly consider bringing the fact that he rode with the Widows Sons to the Worshipful Master's attention or even file Masonic charges myself if I felt strongly enough about it.

My personal opinion is that you have not shown proficiency in the preceding degrees--based on reading your comments on this, and several other threads. As I write this, I will also perform a self-evaluation of sorts on myself, because I know I have faults that need work as well. I pray that you see yours and that you can work them out before somebody in your Lodge comes to the same conclusion that I have...and persues instructing you utilizing disciplinary tools.

I say all this in the kindest way possible. It is not my intent to embarrass or hurt you. I want you to continue to grow and apply Masonic principles to your daily life. Please take this as constructive feedback, because that is how I am meaning it to be received.

Take care Brother.


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## jvarnell (Jan 13, 2013)

scialytic said:


> I've been watching this discussion for some time now. What strikes me as absurd is that a young Brother like yourself has not taken heed to the guidance from our more mature Brothers that frequent this forum. The same points have been explained several times over. That was disconcerting in itself, but to see you write so glibly about edicts from our Most Worshipful Grand Masters and laws voted into place by the Past Masters, sitting Masters, and Wardens of our Texas Lodges is incredulous. It appears that you are having difficulty conforming to the rules, regulations, and customs of our beloved Fraternity.
> 
> If a Brother in my Lodge refused to heed the good counsel whispered into his ear and continue to act refractory and argumentative when approached with sage advice, I would likely protest that he (if not a Master Mason already) not be Raised to the Sublime Degree of a Master Mason and afford him more time to learn his working tools. If he was a Master Mason, I would strongly consider bringing the fact that he rode with the Widows Sons to the Worshipful Master's attention or even file Masonic charges myself if I felt strongly enough about it.
> 
> ...



At this point I need to say OMG.  there is a defrence of self displine and being displine because of an indivuals opinion.   I did not ever say i was not going to take the concel of others i was questioning it so i would understand being a mason dosen`t mean to blindly follow someone but to gain light because of them.  this is a discusion on this forum and a refusal.  If any of you think it is a refusal then you are trying to stop discustion.   Do any of the tools state that we should not be questioning things?  I have the disapline to be the best mane ever but that is not the same as someone imposing on me.

Discustion of a subject gives you knowlage and knowlage gives you light.  Why is discustion bad if it dosen't provoke thought.  If there are no statments then that is an answer to the discustion.

As I have stated I have not been in the WS i just don't understand why the edict was writen and how it is Masonic.   The way to whiper in my eart is to PM me.

Take care back at you.


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## scialytic (Jan 13, 2013)

> The way to whiper in my eart is to PM me.



Absolutely valid point. Though I never said that I whispered in your ear, but know several Brothers that have and several more that have posted directly on this and many other threads. There are some things going on that are much deeper than this discussion and nobody is trying to silence you. We're trying to get through to you. Reread these posts and PMs and hopefully you'll see that.


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## LRG (Jan 13, 2013)

Jvarnell, I have read too many post by you that makes me question your obligations for which you should have learned. I understand that we all have disscussion over many topics that are past down to us by our Grand Lodge. But your attempt to either create doubt or rebellion for deciding factors and conclusions from our Grand lodge only strengthens my beliefs that all non Master Masons should continue in the work and hopefully will understand the most basic foundation to our Craft. Respect to our Fraternity.


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## jvarnell (Jan 13, 2013)

I am going to pm each of you . that don't seam to understand what I have said.


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## rpbrown (Jan 14, 2013)

Bro_Vick said:


> Okay, this is going to be the last time I am going to write a statement on this "it is the inner not the outer" line.  I completely agree that as Masons we need to judge the internal and not the external.  That if a man who is a janitor or ditch digger comes into a lodge to join, we have to purely judge him on his internal merits and not profession.  That man should not be denied the light of Freemasonry because of their appearance (relating to their occupation), and status in society.  This is an endearing quality makes it so Freemasonry has safety guards not to turn into a good 'ol boy club or encourage mercenary motives for joining.  To say nothing of the great diversity it brings our fraternity.
> 
> You have made the choice outside of your occupation to ride a motorcycle and dress the part.  You dress according to the norm and standards of a culture that you most likely aren't dependent on for income.  If people make active statements regarding their clothing, tattoos, and piercings, than I and others will judge you as such.  You made the active choice to wear the leather vest, wear patches, look like a tough guy.  I know you have a choice as I have a great co-worker, and he rides a motorcycle.  He in no way dresses that way when riding, so, no you don't have to dress that way.
> 
> ...



Okay, lets look at this in another direction. I am wearing weastern style boots, Wrangler blue jeans, a tee shirt or button up shirt, a black leather vest with a square and compass on it, a cowboy hat, and get out of a pick up with a bale of hay in the bed.

Now, I have the same boots, same jeans, same shirt, same vest but I have on a helmet instead of a cowboy hat, and get off of a motorcycle instaed of out of a truck.

I am the same man, same clothes just different hat and mode of transportation. Why am I different? I wear the clothes in the first senario because of what I do. When done, I ride a motorcycle without changing clothes.

That is me. Same man, same clothes no change in MY attitude. My occupation nor my means of transportation has anything to do with the man that I am. That is what the brothers at my lodge saw as well as several other lodges I have attended. JUST ME. No cake to eat. JUST ME.


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## LRG (Jan 14, 2013)

You have a restaurant full of bikers and one full of cowboys, which one do you take your family inti for a meal?


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## crono782 (Jan 14, 2013)

Tough choice, one smells like exhaust fumes, the other like horse poopy.


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## rpbrown (Jan 15, 2013)

LRG said:


> You have a restaurant full of bikers and one full of cowboys, which one do you take your family inti for a meal?



Really wouldnt matter. Have taken them into both many times. But that is different people in different settings. What I am talking about is the same person with only a change in hat and mode of transportation. What, in your eys, make him (me) a different person?


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## Mac (Jan 15, 2013)

tomasball said:


> The image doesn't actually have a stripper pole.  The woman depicted on it is wearing something skin-tight...perhaps a leotard.  Shows some cleavage.  She is crouching, and appears to be scratching her head, or adjusting her hair.  The members of the WS who have commented on our concerns about this image say that it depicts their vision of a Mason's widow.  Personally, that is enough information for me to make my decision.



I personally wouldn't want brothers' feelings to get hurt over a conversation regarding the internal versus the external, if the impetus for the conversation is something altogether different.  Wasn't WS not recognized for the above-mentioned patch?  I agree that it is inappropriate for Masons to appear so clothed (with a scantily clad woman on their back).  

I suppose that could be extended to this conversation by pointing out that a brother dressed as others have described (black vest, etc) might misrepresent the fraternity.  If that brother is rude or gets in trouble, while so dressed, he reflects poorly on Freemasonry.  

But so does a rude man in a Fez with a beer at a dance at the Shrine.  It almost never happens in my area, but I feel bad when it does.  

It's not the vest or the Fez that makes this person rude, or a poor representation of us, and I think we all recognize it.  

(I'm sure we've all seen unmasonic behavior inside a masonic lodge, while the brother was clothed as a mason even)


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## scialytic (Jan 16, 2013)

*Getting Back on Track --> Re: The Widow's Sons*



scialytic said:


> I've been watching this discussion for some time now. What strikes me as absurd is that a young Brother like yourself has not taken heed to the guidance from our more mature Brothers that frequent this forum. The same points have been explained several times over. That was disconcerting in itself, but to see you write so glibly about edicts from our Most Worshipful Grand Masters and laws voted into place by the Past Masters, sitting Masters, and Wardens of our Texas Lodges is incredulous. It appears that you are having difficulty conforming to the rules, regulations, and customs of our beloved Fraternity.
> 
> If a Brother in my Lodge refused to heed the good counsel whispered into his ear and continue to act refractory and argumentative when approached with sage advice, I would likely protest that he (if not a Master Mason already) not be Raised to the Sublime Degree of a Master Mason and afford him more time to learn his working tools. If he was a Master Mason, I would strongly consider bringing the fact that he rode with the Widows Sons to the Worshipful Master's attention or even file Masonic charges myself if I felt strongly enough about it.
> 
> ...



As I was reading the *Charge to the Candidate* for Brother Crono being Passed to the Degree of a Fellow of the Craft (I'm eternally grateful to you and Keller Lodge, Crono...I am really honored and you are one impressive Brother; you will be an extremely impressive Mason), I reread the Charge several times before I assumed the role of Master to deliver the Charge to Brother Crono. 

I did a lot of contemplating while studying the Charge and reflected back on this and many other conversations between the Brethren and yourself Brother Varnell. I really hope that you understand that (most) everything that has been directed to you from your Brethren in comments like above, have been made in an attempt to "admonish with friendship." It may not feel like that on the receiving end, but I know that is my intent.

I know that you are a curious Brother and that this disposition is compounded by much life-experience. Many of us probably just aren't understanding why you are making some of the comments that you make, or asking the questions that you ask. I've been taking them with a grain of salt because I also share that (generally much-despised) characteristic. The red flag for me was when you mentioned that you had rode with Widows Sons (or mentioned it as a hypothetical situation) because that is something that could drastically impact your Masonic future within this Jurisdiction--and consequently--most others. You will be a Mason for life, but an expelled or suspended Mason loses communication with the Brethren and that is a lot of what our Fraternity is about.

I do apologize for the tone of my previous posts if they offended you. I do, however, encourage you to reread the Brothers' posts. There is a lot of wisdom and sagacity in them. The majority of the Brothers that respond to your inquiries have provided really good answers...and some are from crusty old farts that don't want to deal with people that question anything about Masonry...but that's life! It takes all kinds... 

And on this forum, I guarantee that there is far more signal than noise. Please reread what you can, and take an unbiased position when reading them. There are many things that you swore to uphold that you may (and will) completely disagree with. You can work on changing that when you become one of the top three officers of your Lodge or a Past Master because then you'll have a vote in Grand Lodge. Until then, keep asking and be sure to know your audience. If they don't seem the type to like bikers...don't bother trying to change their minds, focus on something else. 

The Stoics have a great philosophy where they say that you should only focus your energy and emotions on things that directly affect you and that you can actually change. If somebody doesn't like that you ride a motorcycle, they probably never will...because they probably didn't like them long before they met you. But what you can change is how they perceive you. I'm not saying change who you are, but let them see the "you" that they are most likely going to appreciate. If an enormous tree falls in your path, you can try to move the tree to get by it; or, you can just drive around it. Focus your energy on what you can directly affect.

Whatever you decide to do, just be careful. There are a few people out there that will gun for you if they don't like what they see. Especially if you are not a Master Mason. All it takes is three protests to put a halt to your degree progression. And you are going to be a great Mason. You are excited, passionate, and inquisitive. Let's just focus that energy on things that can be changed, and trust in your Brethren. They are very knowledgeable and have been at this for quite some time. If they comment on your post, it is worth really thinking about...in many contexts.

Now I'm throwing that "take care" that you threw back at me and I'm throwing it back at you. Take care Brother.


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## scialytic (Jan 16, 2013)

And with that: This thread is dead! [Da-Dum-Dum-TSsccchhh]

Could we have this thread locked up please? Brother Varnell does not plan to continue this discussion and neither do I. May peace and harmony prevail my Brothers.

If we want the conversation about bikers and cowboys to continue, please post it on a new thread. And for the record: it really doesn't bother me if you wear a leather vest--as long as you wear a shirt under it!


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