# Are You Really a MM?



## Mel Knight (Feb 9, 2016)

One would say that you're technically not a MM until you've gone through RAM! 

What are your thoughts?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Feb 9, 2016)

What is RAM ?


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## Brother JC (Feb 9, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> What is RAM ?


In the US it's Royal Arch Mason* and I personally feel all Brothers should pursue the Degree. You don't have to continue further in the "York Rite" after that, if you don't want.
*In England (and elsewhere) RAM stands for Royal Ark Mariner. The Royal Arch is known as Holy Royal Arch and is actually attached to Grand Lodge, as opposed to being a separate body.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Feb 9, 2016)

I've never heard that before. I don't see how one could say your really not a MM unless you join an appendant body. To me it's nothing more than a recruitment tactic. Next they will be saying your not really a MM unless you receive your 32 or join the Shrine. Anyone that has been initiated, passed, and raised will know what makes them a mason. I don't recall anything stating that I must go through "RAM" If this is true then what does that say about the Freemason that has been in the craft for over 40+ years and only received his third degree. Again, recruitment tactic to make you feel that what you done isn't enough and you need to go higher.


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## Canadian Paul (Feb 9, 2016)

Although a member of the Scottish Rite and the Royal order of Scotland, the 'highest' degree I have is that of "Master Mason'.


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## Zack (Feb 9, 2016)

Crowded in with 100 others to watch poorly done ritual made no impression on me.  Had a lot to do with why I left.


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## Companion Joe (Feb 9, 2016)

Obviously, I am partial to the York Rite.
With that said, once you have been raised, yes, you are as much a Master Mason as anyone, and the third degree is the "highest" there is. I'd say the Red Cross of Constantine and the 33rd are the most exclusive, but neither makes you more of a Master Mason than anyone who has never ventured beyond the Blue Lodge.
With _that_ said, you need to go through the Royal Arch to receive the true word of a Master Mason. What you get in the Blue Lodge third degree is the substitute word.


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## Brother JC (Feb 9, 2016)

As I mentioned, in England it is not an "appendant body," but is part of UGLE and is considered the completion of the MM Degree. You should spend some time studying the Royal Arch's history and not let the blinders of the American version narrow your view.


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## Randy81 (Feb 9, 2016)

I plan on doing the York Rite.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 9, 2016)

Mel Knight said:


> One would say that you're technically not a MM until you've gone through RAM!
> 
> What are your thoughts?


One would disagree. Whilst I am a PrGO in England and a GLO in the US, and I think all Masons should do HRA, I would indicate every GL of which I am aware considers one to be a Mason without the HRA.


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## mrpierce17 (Feb 10, 2016)

From my understanding in ancient craft masonry the HRAM degrees where part of what is now in the US blue lodge there was no separation of the two house they where done together ...this is a loaded question it depends on how you look at it imo


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## MBC (Feb 10, 2016)

Well, it is the completion of the three degrees, especially the third, this degree is to find which was lost, the genuine secrets of a MM.
And Holy Royal Arch in England and Wales is deemed as an appendant body, with different rulers and constitution but most of the time the rulers are the same, just like the MWGM DoK is also 1st GP in the Supreme Grand Chapter, also the relationship between the United Grand Lodge and the Supreme Grand Chapter are very close.
MMs in England and Wales are encouraged to join HRA but it is not a must.

P.S. You do not need to be advanced(MMM) or being a Past Master to be exalted in a Chapter here.


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## AndreAshlar (Feb 10, 2016)

Companion Joe said:


> With _that_ said, you need to go through the Royal Arch to receive the true word of a Master Mason.



Does your ritual address the TRUE Master's word or the Master's word?


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## MBC (Feb 10, 2016)

AndreAshlar said:


> Does your ritual address the TRUE Master's word or the Master's word?


What do you mean by the True word or the Master's word?
In the third degree it is stated very clearly that the word now using in MM degree is (actually are) substitutes because it was lost. Have a look on the Third degree ritual then you will know that. 
And the Holy Royal Arch degree recovered the genuine secrets.


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## mrpierce17 (Feb 10, 2016)

AndreAshlar said:


> Does your ritual address the TRUE Master's word or the Master's word?


I wanted to address that also but I need to be sitting in a tiled lodge to discuss ritual


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## AndreAshlar (Feb 10, 2016)

MBC said:


> What do you mean by the True word or the Master's word?
> In the third degree it is stated very clearly that the word now using in MM degree is (actually are) substitutes because it was lost. Have a look on the Third degree ritual then you will know that.
> And the Holy Royal Arch degree recovered the genuine secrets.


W.i.y.t.b.a.m.m.?  Take a close look...

Sent from my SM-N910T using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


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## MBC (Feb 10, 2016)

AndreAshlar said:


> W.i.y.t.b.a.m.m.?  Take a close look...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910T using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


I do not know what you mean by w.i.y.t.b.a.m.m. without any indications where is it.
I'm not sure are you in HRA yet, my ritual books didn't have the phrases "True word" and "Master's word" either. I think you are referring to both words that being used in HRA(Genuine word of MM), MM(Substitute one from the previous one) respectively.
In the part of the resumption of the history in my ritual, it said, After founding the body of our M. HAb, those FCs returned back to Jerusalem and report back to KS. KS then informed the FCs that the genuine secrets of a MM is lost, due to the death of HAb and he charged the FCs to observe any casual s., g. or t. and w.
So that's why the s., g or t, and w. of a MM that we are now using are not the genuine secret of a MM


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## Bloke (Feb 11, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> What is RAM ?


LOL... maybe where the goats came in..... we call it RAM here..

You are a unequivocally a MM when you have done your Third Degree.


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## MarkR (Feb 11, 2016)

In the Scottish Rite (SJ, anyway) the Lost Word and the True Word are different, one is recovered in the 13° and the other is discovered in the 18°.

Remember, it's all allegory.  There was no "word" lost; that's not what the search is about, and not the actual meaning of the recovered word.


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## Brother_Steve (Feb 11, 2016)

Mel Knight said:


> One would say that you're technically not a MM until you've gone through RAM!
> 
> What are your thoughts?


Isn't this how conspiracy theorist think?


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 11, 2016)

Companion Joe said:


> With that said, once you have been raised, yes, you are as much a Master Mason as anyone, and the third degree is the "highest" there is.


Agreed.


Companion Joe said:


> With _that_ said, you need to go through the Royal Arch to receive the true word of a Master Mason.


Also agree.


MBC said:


> Well, it is the completion of the three degrees, especially the third, this degree is to find which was lost, the genuine secrets of a MM.


Also agree.


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## Derinique Kendrick (Feb 11, 2016)

Mel Knight said:


> One would say that you're technically not a MM until you've gone through RAM!
> 
> What are your thoughts?


You are indeed a Master Mason after being I,P&R. I think what they are really trying to say is that you just don't have the word that was lost and the only way to find that word, is to go through the HRAM degrees.


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## mrpierce17 (Feb 11, 2016)

Mel Knight said:


> One would say that you're technically not a MM until you've gone through RAM!
> 
> What are your thoughts?


It depends on how well you can make fish dinners and wash dishes


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## CLewey44 (Feb 11, 2016)

Mel Knight said:


> One would say that you're technically not a MM until you've gone through RAM!
> 
> What are your thoughts?



A bit of a provocative statement I would have to disagree with.


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## Brother JC (Feb 12, 2016)

This idea stems from the union of English grand lodges in 1813 when it was stated that "Ancient Craft Masonry consisted of the three degrees of Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft and Master Mason, including the Holy Royal Arch."


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 12, 2016)

mrpierce17 said:


> It depends on how well you can make fish dinners and wash dishes


Lol....good one!


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 12, 2016)

Brother JC said:


> This idea stems from the union of English grand lodges in 1813 when it was stated that "Ancient Craft Masonry consisted of the three degrees of Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft and Master Mason, including the Holy Royal Arch."


From what I have read this is my belief also.


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## acjohnson53 (Feb 12, 2016)

There y'all go, out here recruiting for that left side, when you know the true word comes from that Scottish Rite side...Even thou the York Rite is the keeper of the Temple...


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## acjohnson53 (Feb 12, 2016)

I like coloe slaw with my fish dinner...


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## mrpierce17 (Feb 19, 2016)

Was the building of the temple completed in the first 3 degrees EA,FC,MM ...there lies your answer


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## mrpierce17 (Feb 19, 2016)

I like hot sauce and vinegar on my fish um um good


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## CLewey44 (Feb 19, 2016)

Mel Knight said:


> One would say that you're technically not a MM until you've gone through RAM!
> 
> What are your thoughts?



Honestly, a lot of Master Masons walking around that aren't really MMs by character. Just to go thru the motions, know a couple of tokens and passwords, whether you've done the first 3 degrees or Royal Arch etc, doesn't automatically mean you're walking the walk and are truly a MM. To have sat thru a reunion doesn't mean you necessarily understand what you've heard and seen. I think personal research and even spiritual introversion is important. Participation is important too. How many MMs do you know that were raised and then you never saw them again? That's not uncommon...


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## mrpierce17 (Feb 19, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> Honestly, a lot of Master Masons walking around that aren't really MMs by character. Just to go thru the motions, know a couple of tokens and passwords, whether you've done the first 3 degrees or Royal Arch etc, doesn't automatically mean you're walking the walk and are truly a MM. To have sat thru a reunion doesn't mean you necessarily understand what you've heard and seen. I think personal research and even spiritual introversion is important. Participation is important too. How many MMs do you know that were raised and then you never saw them again? That's not uncommon...


That's a very good point had a brother that went through the line with me only saw him twice since then I was told when I first joined that not all Mason's are Mason's some just come to get a ring and put a emblem on their car


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## CLewey44 (Feb 19, 2016)

mrpierce17 said:


> That's a very good point had a brother that went through the line with me only saw him twice since then I was told when I first joined that not all Mason's are Mason's some just come to get a ring and put a emblem on their car



Exactly...


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 20, 2016)

acjohnson53 said:


> I like coloe slaw with my fish dinner...


Lol!


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 20, 2016)

mrpierce17 said:


> That's a very good point had a brother that went through the line with me only saw him twice since then I was told when I first joined that not all Mason's are Mason's some just come to get a ring and put a emblem on their car


Experienced the same thing. Went through the York Rite with a guy and we completed the Order of the Nights Templar almost three months ago and have not seen or heard of him since. Another "Title Hunter".


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## Glen Cook (Feb 20, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> Honestly, a lot of Master Masons walking around that aren't really MMs by character. Just to go thru the motions, know a couple of tokens and passwords, whether you've done the first 3 degrees or Royal Arch etc, doesn't automatically mean you're walking the walk and are truly a MM. To have sat thru a reunion doesn't mean you necessarily understand what you've heard and seen. I think personal research and even spiritual introversion is important. Participation is important too. How many MMs do you know that were raised and then you never saw them again? That's not uncommon...


Weel, yes, but.., let me  tell you a story: 
 When I petitioned for the degrees in 1993, I called my father and asked if he was still in Mason.  In a voice some want tinged with surprise, he indicated "yes, I pay my dues each year."
 Forward on to about four years later,  and he came out to visit us and in a short week attended a degree in which I obligated, a Job's Daughters meeting, and a National Sojourners meeting.  Before the lodge meeting, he had me review the signs with him repeatedly, as he had not been in some 25 years. 
 He went back home, became active in the lodge, and in his 60s, went through the chairs, beginning as a steward. I then had the pleasure of  installing him in the East.  He subsequently  served as chaplain of Akdar Shrine and President of the Greeters. He drove children to the Shreveport Hospitak.   Forward on a number of years and I sat in the Grand East as he was given his 50 year pin. 
I think the lesson would be that sometimes the worker is scared to go back to the quarry or awaiting an invitation. With a nudge, he can become productive.


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## Mel Knight (Feb 20, 2016)

I thought this question would spark history and Masonic Education in regards to its relation to RAM & BL.


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## Bloke (Feb 20, 2016)

Mel Knight said:


> I thought this question would spark history and Masonic Education in regards to its relation to RAM & BL.



Life is full of surprises 

I would think a history debate would be moot (although no doubt interesting).  Freemasonry's ceremonies take inspiration from all sort of "history" but presented as "traditional history" or myth. What someone thought when composing the ceremonies of appendant orders or indeed the Craft itself, might not survive historic examination, the Orders of Freemasonry are narratives and delivery tools for values and stories, they are not "history". That's why I've not got a problem that early Craft Freemasonry switched from the story of Noah to the building of King Solomon's Temple.


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## CLewey44 (Feb 20, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Weel, yes, but.., let me  tell you a story:
> When I petitioned for the degrees in 1993, I called my father and asked if he was still in Mason.  In a voice some want tinged with surprise, he indicated "yes, I pay my dues each year."
> Forward on to about four years later,  and he came out to visit us and in a short week attended a degree in which I obligated, a Job's Daughters meeting, and a National Sojourners meeting.  Before the lodge meeting, he had me review the signs with him repeatedly, as he had not been in some 25 years.
> He went back home, became active in the lodge, and in his 60s, went through the chairs, beginning as a steward. I then had the pleasure of  installing him in the East.  He subsequently  served as chaplain of Akdar Shrine and President of the Greeters. He drove children to the Shreveport Hospitak.   Forward on a number of years and I sat in the Grand East as he was given his 50 year pin.
> I think the lesson would be that sometimes the worker is scared to go back to the quarry or awaiting an invitation. With a nudge, he can become productive.



Absolutely, a man can come back into Masonry in that manner. It's funny because my story is somewhat similar in that my father didn't go to meetings for years but since I've been raised, (he's out of state from me so we don't attend together) he's been active again. Like you said, he just paid his dues before. I think life happens sometimes and that's ok. I can't be involved as much as I'd like to since I have 2 small children, a civilian job and a military obligation as well. Not to mention, I cut the lodge's grass and I got to school part time. It's hard to make every meeting, initiation, passing, raising, and school etc, etc.

I really meant on my earlier text that many men receive the titles and that's all they are after as Bro. Warrior1256 said previously. Or they figure out they aren't that into Masonry as they thought they'd be or that it conflicts with their religious beliefs or any number of other reasons. That's none of my business, however and to each his own. Everyone has a story.


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## CLewey44 (Feb 20, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Life is full of surprises
> 
> I would think a history debate would be moot (although no doubt interesting).  Freemasonry's ceremonies take inspiration from all sort of "history" but presented as "traditional history" or myth. What someone thought when composing the ceremonies of appendant orders or indeed the Craft itself, might not survive historic examination, the Orders of Freemasonry are narratives and delivery tools for values and stories, they are not "history". That's why I've not got a problem that early Craft Freemasonry switched from the story of Noah to the building of King Solomon's Temple.



Excellent points, brother.


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## CLewey44 (Feb 20, 2016)

mrpierce17 said:


> I like hot sauce and vinegar on my fish um um good



I'm telling you, vinegar is a must with any fish...hot sauce with some catfish, oh yessirrrr...


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 21, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Weel, yes, but.., let me  tell you a story:
> When I petitioned for the degrees in 1993, I called my father and asked if he was still in Mason.  In a voice some want tinged with surprise, he indicated "yes, I pay my dues each year."
> Forward on to about four years later,  and he came out to visit us and in a short week attended a degree in which I obligated, a Job's Daughters meeting, and a National Sojourners meeting.  Before the lodge meeting, he had me review the signs with him repeatedly, as he had not been in some 25 years.
> He went back home, became active in the lodge, and in his 60s, went through the chairs, beginning as a steward. I then had the pleasure of  installing him in the East.  He subsequently  served as chaplain of Akdar Shrine and President of the Greeters. He drove children to the Shreveport Hospitak.   Forward on a number of years and I sat in the Grand East as he was given his 50 year pin.
> I think the lesson would be that sometimes the worker is scared to go back to the quarry or awaiting an invitation. With a nudge, he can become productive.


Great!


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## coachn (Feb 22, 2016)

Mel Knight said:


> One would say that you're technically not a MM until you've gone through RAM!
> 
> What are your thoughts?


Technically?  Based upon what jurisdiction's assessment?  According to mine, if you're labeled a "Master Mason", you're a Master Mason, regardless of your lack of skill and Mastery.

From what is told to me about RAM, it's a leftover from the Antient-Modern wars that raged on during the 1700s and early 1800s.  The Antients used it as a hook to get men to buy into getting what was lost.   

Unfortunately, what is offered does not pass the acid test and therefore falls into the category of further drama-fantasy but not more Light.

What do I say about not being a MM unless RAMed?  Bunk!  

F&S,

Bro. "Coach" Nagy


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## CLewey44 (Feb 22, 2016)

coachn said:


> Technically?  Based upon what jurisdiction's assessment?  According to mine, if you're labeled a "Master Mason", you're a Master Mason, regardless of your lack of skill and Mastery.
> 
> From what is told to me about RAM, it's a leftover from the Antient-Modern wars that raged on during the 1700s and early 1800s.  The Antients used it as a hook to get men to buy into getting what was lost.
> 
> ...



Yeah the initial seemed a bit on the snoody side maybe. I doubt that's what he meant but who knows? Blue Lodgers strongly believe they are MMs and in order for SOME of the  RAM or SR members to feel they got their money's worth, they probably downplay blue lodge Masonry. 99% probably do not feel that way but always a few people with ego problems and loving the feeling of "I know something I won't tell!" In other words, having information that others don't, gives some people a sense of power.  Again, not saying this individual thinks that, but I know some people do.

On the other hand, I definitely would like to receive the RAM/YR degrees and SR someday. I have plenty in front of me for now and that onion I keep peeling back is never ending.


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## Mel Knight (Mar 3, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> Yeah the initial seemed a bit on the snoody side maybe. I doubt that's what he meant but who knows? Blue Lodgers strongly believe they are MMs and in order for SOME of the  RAM or SR members to feel they got their money's worth, they probably downplay blue lodge Masonry. 99% probably do not feel that way but always a few people with ego problems and loving the feeling of "I know something I won't tell!" In other words, having information that others don't, gives some people a sense of power.  Again, not saying this individual thinks that, but I know some people do.
> 
> On the other hand, I definitely would like to receive the RAM/YR degrees and SR someday. I have plenty in front of me for now and that onion I keep peeling back is never ending.



I do apologize if it came across on the snooty side, my comment is free of ego. 

I'm not questioning nor challenging Brothers character. 

This was a conversation I was listening to amongst a few brothers. One brother stated  that  "symbolically you're technically not a MM until you've received your RA degree" 

I wanted to know what others thought about that statement.


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## youngsandy (Apr 4, 2016)

mrpierce17 said:


> From my understanding in ancient craft masonry the HRAM degrees where part of what is now in the US blue lodge there was no separation of the two house they where done together ...this is a loaded question it depends on how you look at it imo


Over here Lodges used to work all the degrees up to and including KT. The secret societies act put a stop to that http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/prescott15.html . Lodges work the three degrees including the Mark. The Mark is seen as being part of the second degree. To complicate things further the Mark belongs to the Royal Arch, an agreement between Supreme and Grand Lodge allows the Lodges to confer the Mark and those receiving the Mark must be MMs.


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## coachn (Apr 4, 2016)

Mel Knight said:


> I do apologize if it came across on the snooty side, my comment is free of ego.
> I'm not questioning nor challenging Brothers character.
> This was a conversation I was listening to amongst a few brothers. One brother stated  that  "symbolically you're technically not a MM until you've received your RA degree"
> I wanted to know what others thought about that statement.


Do you know now?


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## acjohnson53 (Apr 5, 2016)

Her we go, Y'all know good and well that the true word in Masonry is given on the  Scottish Rite side....


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## coachn (Apr 6, 2016)

acjohnson53 said:


> Her we go, Y'all know good and well that the true word in Masonry is given on the  Scottish Rite side....


In Freemasonry, all that you will ever receive are directions to become The Word and Substitutes for those who refuse to follow directions.

http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-lost-masters-word-acid-test.html


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## Warrior1256 (Apr 6, 2016)

coachn said:


> In Freemasonry, all that you will ever receive are directions to become The Word and Substitutes for those who refuse to follow directions.
> 
> http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-lost-masters-word-acid-test.html


Lol....very true.


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## coachn (Apr 6, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> Lol....very true.


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## acjohnson53 (Apr 7, 2016)




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## Ripcord22A (Apr 7, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> I like to think that Masonic Science appears somewhere and that occasionally one of The Seven Masons that make a lodge perfect does actually visit a human lodge.


What?  Dude have you been evaluated for mental stability?  Your posts remind me of the alien guy from the history channel.  The only thing ive ever heard about 7 masons is the number to open a lodge on a certain degree.  Never heard anything about them making a lodge perfect or human lodges......

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


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## Bloke (Apr 7, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> ... The only thing ive ever heard about 7 masons is the number to open a lodge on a certain degree.  Never heard anything about them making a lodge perfect or human lodges......



It's in our Emulation based ritual - 7 masons make a lodge perfect. He's also referencing the 7 Liberal Arts and Sciences..  and the metaphysics & supernatural of Freemasonry. Not necessarily something I subscribe to, but for many, the lodge room and its experiences are spiritual (but not religious)... I think James would be alluding to that.


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## Classical (Apr 8, 2016)

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."  --Sigmund Freud


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## Warrior1256 (Apr 9, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> Quite a number of brethren have said that to me on various forums.
> 
> My own view is that potentially everything done in Freemasonry is symbolic, and am prepared to go down quite a few dry gullies rather than miss something important.
> 
> I see it as a lifestyle choice.


Sounds good.


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## Bill Lins (Apr 9, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> Another "Title Hunter".


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