# Why is the north a place of darkness?



## pointwithinacircle2 (May 15, 2015)

One of the greatest mysteries for me personally is why do Masons consider the north a place of darkness?  Most of the Masons I have asked this question have referred to the explanation given in the ritual.  When I tried to press them further I quickly discovered that they had no ideas other than quoting the ritual.  What do you think?  is there another reason why the north is traditionally a place of darkness?

Further, Symbolically, what does the north represent?  What does the symbol of darkness teach us?


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## MarkR (May 17, 2015)

In the northern hemisphere, sunlight doesn't come in to north facing windows.


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## coachn (May 17, 2015)

There is an interesting legend of a Temple workman whose name was Cavelum. He was kinsman of King Solomon and was the house of David; thus he had high status among the other workmen. In the process of inspection of work in progress on the north wall of the Temple at a place where the north gate was to be, Hiram Abif accidentally dislodged a stone. It fell and struck Cavelum, who was killed. Hiram Abif was so overcome by grief that he ordered the north gate sealed and closed forever. (5) 

This legend was once used as the basis for a degree called Fellow Craft Mark. Dr. Albert Mackey has stated that this was an early trace of the present Mark Master degree.

http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/artfeb02/OLD LEGENDS OF HIRAM ABIFF.HTM


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## coachn (May 17, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Some orders place a chair in the north - for the hidden master


Are those Recognized Masonic Blue Lodge Orders?


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## dfreybur (May 17, 2015)

coachn said:


> Are those Recognized Masonic Blue Lodge Orders?



OES is recognized but not a blue lodge order.


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## coachn (May 17, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> It rather depends who is doing the recognising.


Okay, then narrow it down:  Those Recognized Blue Lodges Orders that are within the sphere Recognized by at least one of the three GLs of Scotland, England and Ireland.


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## coachn (May 18, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> I think point of the thread is about the nature of the North in the temple rather than an account of inter-GL politics.
> 
> Some orders using quite recognizable rituals, allocate a role to the North, even to placing an empty chair.
> 
> ...


All hallucinations aside, you made a claim:


JamestheJust said:


> Some orders place a chair in the north - for the hidden master


You have yet to give example of the Recognized Freemasonic Blue Lodge Order.


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## dfreybur (May 18, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> One of the greatest mysteries for me personally is why do Masons consider the north a place of darkness?



My take -

There are a number of conundrums to be found in Masonry and this is one of them.  We exclude women yet teach equal treatment for everyone.  We exclude atheists yet teach free practice of religious choice.  We are openly elitist but teach equality.

The literal reason as taught in the lecture comes from astronomy.  The Sun traces the ecliptic across the sky every year.  It is never at median once north or south of the ecliptic.  Our civilization is the northern one.

The first step of symbolic reason is Masonry dates from the era of solar worship.  Since the Sun does not illuminate the spot it is dark.  So far simple with no conundrum.

The second step is the reference to the seat in the north being reserved for the divine.  As the divine is the source for the light.  I find this to be the starting point of the conundrum.  There is a cluster of ideas in play.  Veiled in allegory with concealment as a teaching method.  Hiram Abiff being dead and thus dark.  The original Masters Word being lost and thus dark.  Other religions teaching other ways yet also starting from the divine and thus the path but not the source being dark.   These are the kind of secrets that can be shouted from the rooftops and still they remain secret.

The third step is the English pun of sun and son.  Probably as we do not discuss sectarian religion in lodge I wonder if the word dark is a sense shifting play on silence.  Masonry originated in a time and place when forced changes of religion were recent history and people existed who publicly followed the public way still secretly followed the way then out of favor.  Lodges were an asylum for those who would keep their private ways secret.  These are the kinds of secrets where people die when they are revealed.

That's what I think about when I ponder the topic.  What do you think about when you ponder the topic?  Symbols are supposed to very slightly different meanings to every person while all centered around a point and all limited in range.  Bringing us of course to the symbol of the Entered Apprentice.


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## hanzosbm (May 18, 2015)

Not saying that I agree with it, but if one were to subscribe to the Templar connection, the church controlled continent of Europe to the North would be seen an unenlightened compared to some of the gnostic traditions being adopted by the Templars in Jerusalem and thus considered dark.


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## coachn (May 19, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> >the English pun of sun and son
> ...Etymologically they are the same word...


Really?

sun (n.) 


Old English sunne "sun," from Proto-Germanic *sunnon (cognates: Old Norse, Old Saxon, Old High German sunna, Middle Dutch sonne, Dutch zon, German Sonne, Gothic sunno "the sun"), from PIE *s(u)wen- (cognates: Avestan xueng "sun," Old Irish fur-sunnud "lighting up"), alternative form of root *saewel- "to shine; sun" (see Sol). 

Old English sunne was feminine (as generally in Germanic), and the fem. pronoun was used in English until 16c.; since then masc. has prevailed. The empire on which the sun never sets (1630) originally was the Spanish, later the British. To have one's place in the sun (1680s) is from Pascal's "Pensées"; the German imperial foreign policy sense (1897) is from a speech by von Bülow.

son (n.) 


Old English sunu "son, descendant," from Proto-Germanic *sunuz (cognates: Old Saxon and Old Frisian sunu, Old Norse sonr, Danish søn, Swedish son, Middle Dutch sone, Dutch zoon, Old High German sunu, German Sohn, Gothic sunus "son"). The Germanic words are from PIE *su(e)-nu- "son" (cognates: Sanskrit sunus, Greek huios, Avestan hunush, Armenian ustr, Lithuanian sunus, Old Church Slavonic synu, Russian and Polish syn "son"), a derived noun from root *seue- (1) "to give birth" (cognates: Sanskrit sauti "gives birth," Old Irish suth "birth, offspring").


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## Zaden (May 22, 2015)

Henry Corbin's The Man of Light in Iranian Sufism has some detailed discussion of the "darkness" of the North, the search for the Orient and the Midnight Sun that make for quite interesting lines of thought for meditation. Both the differences and the, perhaps obscured, similarities.


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## Levelhead (Jun 5, 2015)

The answer is in the EA lecture. 


Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jun 5, 2015)

Levelhead said:


> The answer is in the EA lecture.


Am I to understand from your answer that you believe that the wording in the EA lecture is not an allegory, not symbolic, and that nothing can be learned for examining the concept?


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## Levelhead (Jun 5, 2015)

Brother with all due respect. Your question was "Why is the north a place of darkness" 

Well im not one to judge or ponder on your knowledge. But to give you an exact answer to this question.... The exact answer is in the EA lecture.

Most people dont realize how informative the lecture is until they hear it numerous times from the sidelines. 

Its just heard and not impressed in your mind especially the day your are initiated. There is too many over whelming thoughts to even listen and let the words sink in as the new candidate is in a state of awe. Mind taken over by the thoughts of the past hours events.  


Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom.


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## dfreybur (Jun 5, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Am I to understand from your answer that you believe that the wording in the EA lecture is not an allegory, not symbolic, and that nothing can be learned for examining the concept?



Please understand that a question can have both a literal and a figurative answer.  This is a good example.  The lecture gives a literal answer.  The lecture does not give the only answer.


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## Roy_ (Jun 9, 2015)

In the North-East corner thread I just made a reference to Farwerck. In his theory one of the sources of FM is the prechristian religion of Northern Europe. For the current thread, using that theory I can pose another option:
To the North would be the over-world (as opposed to our middle world and the under world) hence the high seat would be in the North side of a building (which was oriented East/West, so the Northern side would be a long side as the buildings were 'oblong squares'). This seat of honour became the seat of the devil when Christianity started to refurnish heathen temples into churches; hence: darkness (and that empty chair).


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## hanzosbm (Jun 9, 2015)

Roy_ said:


> In the North-East corner thread I just made a reference to Farwerck. In his theory one of the sources of FM is the prechristian religion of Northern Europe. For the current thread, using that theory I can pose another option:
> To the North would be the over-world (as opposed to our middle world and the under world) hence the high seat would be in the North side of a building (which was oriented East/West, so the Northern side would be a long side as the buildings were 'oblong squares'). This seat of honour became the seat of the devil when Christianity started to refurnish heathen temples into churches; hence: darkness (and that empty chair).


To look at this same idea from a practical point of view, having visited several reconstructions of these old long houses, the benches were usually attached to the walls or very close to them all facing inward the same way our lodges are now.  That being said, with the sun never hitting the exterior of the north wall, you'd likely have your back to a very cold wall on that side which would be unpleasant.  To say that the north was dark could also (and in addition to the religious reasons) be referring to the fact that it was not warmed by the sun.


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## Roy_ (Jun 10, 2015)

James, did you ever see a Mithraeum? Benches along the sides, stars against the ceiling, Mithras and his bull at the end of the pathway. Certainly a nice comparison to the interior of our lodge. For a Germanic 'temple' the stars on our ceiling would refer to the open sky (the Germans did not have (m)any temples before they met the Romans and hence gathered under the open sky).

Hanzo, putting your Gods or ancestors against the coldest wall seems a little harsch, does it not  ?

The nice thing about Masonic ritual/symbolism is that you can look at it from different angles.


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## hanzosbm (Jun 10, 2015)

Roy_ said:


> Hanzo, putting your Gods or ancestors against the coldest wall seems a little harsch, does it not  ?
> 
> The nice thing about Masonic ritual/symbolism is that you can look at it from different angles.



Well, that's exactly my point.  It can be seen from different angles, both spiritual and practical.  Who knows, maybe at some point the ancient Europeans looked at their beliefs and said "soooo, we need to give our ancestors one of these walls, which one?  How about the cold one?  Nobody ever sits on that side anyway, and they're dead, so they probably don't get cold."  Just a possibility.  Also, I have heard people who claim to have encountered ghosts and spirits to say they felt cold at the time.  Maybe they equated the two.  Obviously, I have no idea, just tossing out some theories.  Regardless, I think the idea definitely has enough there to warrant further discussion.


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

In the context of Mythology, Light battles Darkness, when the Autumn approaches, the darkness seems to come from the North, because the Sun rises to a point lower in the sky daily until the Winter Solstice. and is never directly over head anywhere North of the Tropic of Cancer, at about 27 degrees Latitude


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## hanzosbm (Aug 5, 2015)

GKA said:


> In the context of Mythology, Light battles Darkness, when the Autumn approaches, the darkness seems to come from the North, because the Sun rises to a point lower in the sky daily until the Winter Solstice. and is never directly over head anywhere North of the Tropic of Cancer, at about 27 degrees Latitude


I'm not good with putting multiple quotes in a post, so I'll just restate them as I address them.

"Light battles Darkness, when the Autumn approaches, the darkness seems to come from the North"
That's true, but I think it's kind of a shakey argument.  If we were to look for an example of the Light battling the Dark, we could do so with a daily reminder of the rising sun chasing away the darkness, but in that case, the west would be the place of darkness. 

"is never directly over head anywhere North of the Tropic of Cancer"
That's also true, but just because the sun isn't directly overhead doesn't make one area dark.  You and I both live in California.  It's a little after 1pm here, if I go outside and look up to the sun, I could hardly say that it's dark in the north.


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## hanzosbm (Aug 5, 2015)

I had another theory on this recently.  Let's think back to our opening and closing.  The sun rises in the east, sets in the west.  Okay, sure, everybody knows that.  But, "it is at its M.  H." in the south.  If we look at this as a flat earth, would this then translate into the north being under us and therefore dark?


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

You are correct, also, it is a difficult task to analyze mythology, can't really be done outside of the civilization where that mythology is relevant.
Most myths, which I am aware of, deal with the cycles of life beyond the apparent daily ones. that make the cycle of the seasons a prime topic within the mythical frame


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> I had another theory on this recently.  Let's think back to our opening and closing.  The sun rises in the east, sets in the west.  Okay, sure, everybody knows that.  But, "it is at its M.  H." in the south.  If we look at this as a flat earth, would this then translate into the north being under us and therefore dark?
> View attachment 4707


Interesting, that could very well be a part of it.


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## hanzosbm (Aug 5, 2015)

I'll freely admit that it's a pretty loose theory, but maybe it'll spark a better theory in someone else's mind.


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## hanzosbm (Nov 13, 2015)

Doing some more reading today, I wanted to add some additional thoughts.  W.L. Wilmshurst suggests that while the East may be the place of spiritual light, at the opposite side of that is the idea of rationale, scientific light; thus denoted by the West.  At either extreme and completely lacking the other, there IS light, but it is limited.  Rather, it is through the combination of the two that we see the most of the world around us.  This perfect combination would be the South where the S. is at it's M.H..  However, if one were to turn their back on both types of light, one would be facing to the North, thus metaphorically making it both a place of darkness and ignorance.


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## hanzosbm (Nov 13, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> In the far northern summer the Sun never sets.  How is the North a place of darkness?
> 
> There is another meaning.


And in the winter it is never seen, so that debate doesn't really fly here.

Nonetheless, I'm always open to new ideas; please enlighten me.


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## dfreybur (Nov 13, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> There is another meaning.



These are the meanings I think of when I ponder the topic.  What are the meanings you think of when you ponder the topic?

1)
I rather like the fact that dark in this context means hidden.  Yet what is it that is hidden?  The image of the divine in the heart of each brother.

That's hidden because we may well have a very different idea of the divine than the brother next to us but we don't know that because of our landmark to not discuss sectarian religion in our assemblies.

What's dark is the light.  What's hidden is what's so clear inside each of us.  It's one of those wonderful contradictions that gives us our strength.  We openly discriminate against atheists because we are men of faith who have decided to assemble amongst ourselves and in the process we become a force for freedom of religion in the world.

2)
There's also the view that the pedestals symbolize the phases of human life.  With youth/beauty, adulthood/strength and senior/wisdom we also have a phase of darkness that comes after the wisdom.  It's a darkness from whose borne no man returns.

Were we to order our pedestals differently it would symbolize both the time before birth and the time after death.  To me that would convert the message to one about reincarnation which would push us too far into sectarian topics.  The placement is carefully tuned on this topic.


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## hanzosbm (Nov 13, 2015)

Well, as I am not a member of the SR, I'll have to take your word for it.


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## Bloke (Nov 17, 2015)

I've avoided this thread because I knew what I was going to read...... but it's all very simple.

The North is the place of complete darkness, void of good, warmth and knowledge, light and growth.. because that is where we place the Secretary and Treasurer..

*smiles*

Just jokes my brothers... just a little humour...


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## hanzosbm (Nov 17, 2015)

FUNNY!

Although, in both KY and CA the Secretary are in the south.  Come to think of it, I don't believe we had a separate office for Treasurer in my lodge in KY, but if we did, he sat in the South also.


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## hanzosbm (Feb 25, 2016)

I wanted to add to this from something I just read today.  It is from a book called Masonry Dissected (the particular copy I'm reading from is dated 1730.  In it is a catechism which a question and answer around this, but with a little more explanation than we're used to.  They first talk about what we would call the three lesser lights.  But, in addition to those, it goes on to ask:

"Have you any fix'd Lights in your Lodge?
Yes.
How many?
Three."

The author then gives a bit of a sidebar saying "These fix’d Lights are three Windows, suppos'd (tho' vainly) to be in every Room where a Lodge it held, but more properly, the four Cardinal Points according to the antique Rules of Masonry."

"How are they situated?
East, South, and West.
What are their Uses?
To light the men to, at, and from their work.
Why are there no Lights in the North?
Because the Sun darts no Rays from thence."

So, there are two possible additional aspects about why the north is dark.  First, it makes it sound like there were supposed to be windows, but only 3 since the north one wouldn't have let in any light.  In a closed room, this would indeed have made the north dark. 
The second explanation is a bit more perplexing.  "To light the men to, at, and from their work".  Is this supposed to indicate that workmen were using the sun rising and setting for navigation to and from the worksite?  Is it just a broad way of saying 'so they can see what they're doing'?  Or is there a more esoteric reasoning?

Thoughts?


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 18, 2016)

coachn said:


> There is an interesting legend of a Temple workman whose name was Cavelum. He was kinsman of King Solomon and was the house of David; thus he had high status among the other workmen. In the process of inspection of work in progress on the north wall of the Temple at a place where the north gate was to be, Hiram Abif accidentally dislodged a stone. It fell and struck Cavelum, who was killed. Hiram Abif was so overcome by grief that he ordered the north gate sealed and closed forever. (5)
> 
> This legend was once used as the basis for a degree called Fellow Craft Mark. Dr. Albert Mackey has stated that this was an early trace of the present Mark Master degree.
> 
> http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/artfeb02/OLD LEGENDS OF HIRAM ABIFF.HTM


Sounds good.


JamestheJust said:


> Some orders place a chair in the north - for the hidden master





coachn said:


> Are those Recognized Masonic Blue Lodge Orders?


I don't know if I am understanding these posts correctly but in all of the lodges I have been in there is a chair in the north that remains vacant.


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## mrpierce17 (Sep 18, 2016)

In my jurisdiction the north being a place of darkness has to do with the way King Solomon's temple was situated 


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


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## Brother JC (Sep 19, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> Is an explanation given for the vacant chair?



Not every lodge I've been in has had a chair in the north. In the ones that had them, the explanation I was given was that "Eastern Star used it."
The lodge layout in my Mother Jurisdiction specifically shows No Chair in the north.


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## Ripcord22A (Sep 19, 2016)

Brother JC said:


> Not every lodge I've been in has had a chair in the north. In the ones that had them, the explanation I was given was that "Eastern Star used it."
> The lodge layout in my Mother Jurisdiction specifically shows No Chair in the north.


But yet both 1 and 19 have chairs there.  In Oregon when u look at the floor plan the Chaplain should sit in the North...in.practice the chaplain sits in the NW.


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 19, 2016)

mrpierce17 said:


> In my jurisdiction the north being a place of darkness has to do with the way King Solomon's temple was situated
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


To be honest I have never thought to ask.


Ripcord22A said:


> in.practice the chaplain sits in the NW.


In the two lodges that I belong to the chaplain sit on the floor level to the left of the WM.


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## hanzosbm (Sep 19, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> To be honest I have never thought to ask.


It's the same in KY.  I don't have my monitor with me, but something along the lines of "it being situated so far north of the meridian..."


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## Ripcord22A (Sep 19, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> It's the same in KY.  I don't have my monitor with me, but something along the lines of "it being situated so far north of the meridian..."


mine too.....what has always confused be about that line though is that if that were geographically correct that would put the temple in the Arctic Circle.  and if it were in the Arctic Circle then the North would be a place of prolonged light as well as prolonged darkness.......


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## hanzosbm (Sep 19, 2016)

Ripcord22A said:


> mine too.....what has always confused be about that line though is that if that were geographically correct that would put the temple in the Arctic Circle.  and if it were in the Arctic Circle then the North would be a place of prolonged light as well as prolonged darkness.......


Agreed.  But, I think looking at some of the historical catechisms helps here.  In Masonry Dissected from the year 1730, the questions of whether there are any fixed lights in the lodge is asked.  The answer is yes and that there are 3.  When asked for an explanation, it is explained the these fixed lights are three windows that are supposed to be found in every lodge.  When asked why there is none in the north, the answer is 'because the sun darts no rays from thence'.  In this case, the idea is that these windows are the form of light by which the brothers work.  In the north (notice, there is no mention of the temple, only the actual lodge) the window was absent.  Why?  Probably because windows were very poorly insulated and if you weren't going to get much light through there, why go through the added effort and expense to add something that will only make the room colder?  Furthermore, the north might allow some light in, but the rays that would truly illuminate a room would likely not extend far enough into the room to make it worthwhile.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Sep 19, 2016)

Masonic ritual is one of the few places that uses the word ecliptic.  Perhaps we might consider the position of the ecliptic in the northern reaches of the northern hemisphere.


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## dfreybur (Sep 20, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> Perhaps the real question is: why are there only 3 principal officers when we know that a Freemason's temple extends in 4 directions?
> 
> The 3 principal officer structure extends through all the degrees and orders to which I have belonged.  Why is it special?



In the pre-Relativity world there were three known spacial dimensions.  Plumb level and square, length height depth, many different lists.  Extending in 4 directions is a projection onto those three dimensions.  One of the meanings of the Letter G in American ritual is Geometry so let's take this as a spacial geometry lesson.


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 20, 2016)

My mother lodge met last night and I asked two older members about the north of the lodge. One said that there was so little light that entered the north end of Solomon's Temple, therefore, the symbolism. As for the chair I was told the same as one of the Brother's comments here. It is for use by the OES.


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## Brother JC (Sep 20, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> Actually N-S, E-W is only 2 dimensions - a plane.



From the Earth to the starry Heavens...


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## Bloke (Sep 20, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> And that makes the 3rd dimension.
> 
> So what is the work in temple so large?  Surely it is beyond human scale.


We also have WT to measure time (24 hrs of day in 24 inch gauge)


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## Brother JC (Sep 20, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> And that makes the 3rd dimension.


Exactly; h, l, d. (Or x, y, z.)



JamestheJust said:


> So what is the work in temple so large?  Surely it is beyond human scale.


Is it so large? From the north to the south, the east to the west, the firmament to the heavens can exist within my body, within my mind. Standing within a redwood forest or a chamber in the temple, it is only as vast, or as small, as I require it to be to Work.


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## Brother JC (Sep 20, 2016)

Not particularly. This thread isn't about me, I'm just sharing my opinion on spatial relations.


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## Bloke (Sep 20, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> I understand that.   Being a brother of some experience, I wonder if you have considered what is the work of a lodge of MM where all are trained and there is no candidate coming up.
> 
> I have asked this of quite a few brethren and have yet to get an answer.


We've always got material to worth with - our own rough ashlar... keeps me busy..


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## Bloke (Sep 20, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> The rough ashlar of course is the work of the EA and the work on that is largely private.   So what is the work of a lodge of MM when there is no candidate?
> 
> I have yet to find a brother with a good answer - even to the 33rd degree.



The rough ashlar is not just about the first degree, if you agree it symbolises the man, and, say following your focus on "the hidden mysteries" and spiritualism, how can a man's ashlar approach smooth when it only looks solely at the lessons of the first degree ? A smooth ashlar has 6 faces, 8 corners, and many places is can be illformed- it's the complete man and beyond. Candidate are about teaching, the ashlar is about learning and adjusting which should be present in everything.


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## chrmc (Sep 21, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> Do you have a view on what is the work of the FC?



There is no simple message to this, largely because masonry isn't dogmatic, but a personal journey. You can easily point to the facts that are presented in any of the degrees and say that this is the work of that degree and you'd be right. But you can also start reading the lessons and working tools on the allegorical level and point to them. Yet another angle is seeing the degrees as the three ages of man and that'll give you a different interpretation. And if you further consider the lodge as a representation of yourself and the psyche then you come up with something different. 
And to me all these answers would be correct. 

I'm sure that if we spent some time we can find the overarching themes that we can agree belongs to each of the degrees, but to me it is of much great importance that each mason actually DOES some work and tries to improve himself rather than considering IF it's the right work for that degree.


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## Bloke (Sep 21, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> Do you have a view on what is the work of the FC?



of course... "... the connection of our whole system and the relative dependence of its parts....." the FC sits in that context.  it is part of a _whole _and not an end in itself. it is not the only thing one should focus on and Freemasonry,  for the MM, is not a staged system but a total one;  which we fathom gradually but not according to the linear degree progression.. Respectfully, I feel like I am listening to a one track record  which has "the hidden mysteries and nature and science" as the track. There is a spiritual side of the Second Degree many miss and only see in the third degree. Indeed it runs through all three degrees that, as individual experiences, and as the sum of the whole,  are supposed to deepen our understanding as individuals of ourselves , our place in the world and our relationship with the divine. All this depends to some extent on the ritual you have experienced (i suspect your experience here is different to mine) and how that "works"... but of course the FC is told to look outside the system to_ nature and science _but these are _not _the peculiar study of Freemasonry, if you think it is, and there * is *  an arguable it is, I'll let you know when I've gone to the Grand Lodge Above...


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## dfreybur (Sep 21, 2016)

Brother JC said:


> Is it so large?



One of the conundrums.  We are told the lodge covers the entire universe.  But we're only told that after the lodge is tiled within a small physical space.  We are told to treat all well, but Brothers better.

I figure it means the room is small so our hearts are to be large.


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## Ripcord22A (Sep 21, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> Masonry is a social club promoting morality, charity and ritual.


There fixed it for ya.  

Please tell me what are these "hidden mysteries" are please.  This is a sincere question.  And please make it Barmey style for me.  Cause i may already be searchimg for them and not know it.  A few weeks ago we had a very good talk at lodge on the Golden Mean and how it related to life and Masonry...really got me thinking about strength and beauty and what they really mean.


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## coachn (Sep 21, 2016)

> The rough ashlar of course is the work of the EA and the work on that is largely private.


Only if you care to go it alone.  It might be personal work, but it gets done a lot quicker when there is an experienced brother mentoring. 





> So what is the work of a lodge of MM when there is no candidate?


Learning and teaching yourself, as it has always been and shall always be.





> I have yet to find a brother with a good answer - even to the 33rd degree.


Perhaps Brothers actually have and you simply cannot see or hear it as an acceptable answer based upon your peculiar way of seeing and hearing things.





> Do you have a view on what is the work of the FC?


Yes.  It is Learning How to Learn by focusing upon Symbols as they appear as words and numbers to bring order to the chaos of the mind.

Of course, this follows the EA Work: Preparing to Learn by focusing upon bringing order to the chaos of the heart.





> ...It is very rare to find a brother who wishes to penetrate the hidden mysteries or even takes seriously study of the seven liberal arts and sciences.


It's even rarer to find one who doesn't cover the temple beauty with a lot of rubbish.


----------



## Bloke (Sep 21, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> As far as I can tell all native peoples experience (or at least believe) the Earth as alive and humans as embedded in an intelligent ecosystem that extends out to the stars.
> 
> Westerners however tend to believe they walk upon the Earth and that the Earth is an accidental (or created) lump of rock.
> 
> ...



When I was a teenager I seriously though of becoming an animist - but the read "God is in everything" which reconciled my feelings with the traditional main stream church I grew up in... 

I like these threads, they might produce different views but they teach, even if only to consider my own position...


----------



## coachn (Sep 21, 2016)

> As far as I can tell all native peoples experience (or at least believe) the Earth as alive and humans as embedded in an intelligent ecosystem that extends out to the stars.... ... Some Westerners are now reconsidering.  ....


----------



## Ripcord22A (Sep 21, 2016)

@coach....perfect comedic timing


----------



## Ripcord22A (Sep 21, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> As far as I can tell all native peoples experience (or at least believe) the Earth as alive and humans as embedded in an intelligent ecosystem that extends out to the stars.
> 
> Westerners however tend to believe they walk upon the Earth and that the Earth is an accidental (or created) lump of rock.
> 
> ...


See that sounds way less wack-a-doo then most of ur posts.  All that stuff makes sense but its not "hidden"  thats just "do unto others" stuff.  But on the flip side some of the best people ive met were under a bridge because they only thought of other people and the most siccessful happy people ive met were the biggest aholes cause all they thought about were them and their own.  So the put good in to the universe get good out is crap....


----------



## Bloke (Sep 22, 2016)

coachn said:


>


Coach,


Ripcord22A said:


> See that sounds way less wack-a-doo then most of ur posts.  All that stuff makes sense but its not "hidden"  thats just "do unto others" stuff.  But on the flip side some of the best people ive met were under a bridge because they only thought of other people and the most siccessful happy people ive met were the biggest aholes cause all they thought about were them and their own.  So the put good in to the universe get good out is crap....



I'm an under the bridge type... we have a line about giving which is " without detriment to ourselves or our connections" which I try to use to temper my generosity as does thinking of the four cardinal virtues which include temperance and prudence... of the other two in spades...


----------



## SimonM (Sep 24, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> As far as I can tell all native peoples experience (or at least believe) the Earth as alive and humans as embedded in an intelligent ecosystem that extends out to the stars.
> 
> Westerners however tend to believe they walk upon the Earth and that the Earth is an accidental (or created) lump of rock.



James,
Here I have to disagree with you. Seeing the creation as something we are interconnected with and in some sense alive (or its modern new age variant with the gaia theory) is not the hidden mysteries. That is what more or less every person on earth up untill the 19th century thought to be true. We in the west are right now in a strange anomaly where most just see the creation as a rock spinning in space. 
What you discribed was one way (out of many) on how to make a person more considerate and moral, nothing more. I agree that it is important, but once again, not the hidden mysteries. 



Ripcord22A said:


> Please tell me what are these "hidden mysteries" are please.  This is a sincere question.



In the western tradition, the hidden mysteries discribe our relationship with God (and to some extent creation) and the how to reach that understanding. 
There are several paths and some have slightly different aims, but the most common ones sets as their highest goal for the person to rise up to see God while still alive. Or to discribe it in another way, the process will make you realise the nature of man, creation and God with the same clairity that the Apostles, prophets (or the Buddha) had. 


My interpretation on what James have been asking for quite some time now, what the work of the MM is, alludes to the mysteries. 
It is said that in the past that degree alone could start the process that ends with enlightenment.  This is no longer the case, but for many it is a good foundation and starting point for those who want to go deeper. 

(James, let me know if I misunderstood you in any way!)



Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


----------



## coachn (Sep 24, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Coach,...


uh... yes?


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Sep 25, 2016)

Ripcord22A said:


> Please tell me what are these "hidden mysteries" are please.  This is a sincere question.  And please make it Barmey style for me.  Cause I may already be searching for them and not know it.  A few weeks ago we had a very good talk at lodge on the Golden Mean and how it related to life and Masonry...really got me thinking about strength and beauty and what they really mean.


I feel like I know you a little bit from reading your posts.  I think you are searching for the hidden mysteries of science and nature.  Actually I think most people are searching for them.  

In attempting to answer your question I would like to propose that our thoughts, feelings, and actions are all inescapably related to each other.  What we think affects what we feel and do.  What we feel affects how we think and act.  What we do affects how we think and what we feel.  This explains why prayer works, why meditation works, why making a gratitude list works, and why getting off my butt on Saturday and mowing the lawn works.    All that sounds pretty self explanatory.  The reason this is a hidden mystery is that no one knows how deep it really goes.  As a further example please read the linked article about how learning to play an instrument contributes to self mastery.  https://nunomarinhomusic.wordpress.com/2016/09/18/self-regulation-becoming-your-own-master/


----------



## Bloke (Jan 31, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> ....And yet the mysteries were protected by the death penalty.  Why was that thought necessary?...


Irony


----------



## Warrior1256 (Jan 31, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> A comforting thought.


Yeah, really.


----------



## coachn (Jan 31, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> One of the conundrums.  We are told the lodge covers the entire universe.  But we're only told that after the lodge is tiled within a small physical space.  We are told to treat all well, but Brothers better.
> 
> I figure it means the room is small so our hearts are to be large.


But it makes perfect sense when you realize the "lodge" is not the building or the room.  The Lodge is the men who gather to do Work.


----------



## Elexir (Jan 31, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> It seems that HAB did not need to die.  There were never any secrets to be protected.



Solve et coagula.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 1, 2017)

coachn said:


> The Lodge is the men who gather to do Work.


Yep!


----------



## Elexir (Feb 1, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> So what is the Work?  Make more MM?



To strenghten the virtues and weaken the vices.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 1, 2017)

Elexir said:


> To strenghten the virtues and weaken the vices.


Well said!


----------



## Brother JC (Feb 1, 2017)

In my lodge we say, "...build castles for virtues and dungeons for vices."


----------



## Elexir (Feb 1, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> I thought that was the work of the EA.  And then we have the work of the FC - hidden mysteries of nature and science.  And then the work of the MM is:  make more MMs?



What I paraphrased is from the bylaws of the Swedish GL and where considerd a masonic secret up until around 2007. 

Yes and no. 
What the MM gives an FC when he becomes a new MM is simply more tools and a new prespective. 
What the MM does with his tools is simply up to the person.


----------



## Elexir (Feb 1, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> When the MM are formed up in the temple that extends from E to W and N to S and from the center of the Earth to the Heavens what they do is "simply up to the person"?
> 
> I rather hoped that MMs formed up in that vast temple performed work with the Sun,  Moon and Stars



Yes, micro and macro working in tandem.
However, the question is how you use it.

You are refering to what a MM is, I refer to what he does and the goal.

Just becuse you have a pencil dont make you a a good writer just as being a MM dont make you a hardworking MM.


----------



## Bloke (Feb 1, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> In my lodge we say, "...build castles for virtues and dungeons for vices."



Really ! ? How cool ! It's not in our ritual but those words are in our table lodge ceremony.


----------



## Ripcord22A (Feb 1, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> It seems that HAB did not need to die.  There were never any secrets to be protected.


But he had the secrets of an operative mason. Which at the time the tragedy happens were many

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## Brother JC (Feb 1, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Really ! ? How cool ! It's not in our ritual but those words are in our table lodge ceremony.


That's where we say it, as well. We hold an Agape each month immediately after our Lodge of Instruction.


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## Bloke (Feb 2, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> That's where we say it, as well. We hold an Agape each month immediately after our Lodge of Instruction.


We're currently doing it annually but dine after every meeting.... and generally after informally  at rehearsal.... it's not just armies who March on their stomach


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 2, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Really ! ? How cool ! It's not in our ritual but those words are in our table lodge ceremony.





Brother JC said:


> That's where we say it, as well. We hold an Agape each month immediately after our Lodge of Instruction.





Bloke said:


> We're currently doing it annually but dine after every meeting.... and generally after informally at rehearsal.... it's not just armies who March on their stomach


Great!


----------



## Ripcord22A (Feb 2, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> that could only be communicated by the three Grand Masters.  They must have been busy flying around the planet to support all the great buildings.


Nope.  Thats made up too.  Allegory to teach us to always be searching ourselves for ways to improve.  I mean if all 3 had the "secret" of a MM so did every other MM on the site.  Why not just promote HABs 2nd in command and move out amd draw fire?

Sometimes I'm not sure if your trolling me or if you really take the things in our ritual literally?

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## Bloke (Feb 2, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Nope.  Thats made up too.  Allegory to teach us to always be searching ourselves for ways to improve.  I mean if all 3 had the "secret" of a MM so did every other MM on the site.  Why not just promote HABs 2nd in command and move out amd draw fire?
> 
> Sometimes I'm not sure if your trolling me or if you really take the things in our ritual literally?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app



Real or fiction, the question remains why is the story told how it is....


----------



## Ripcord22A (Feb 2, 2017)

Hab wasn't a real person.  Hkt didn't live that long.....

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## Ripcord22A (Feb 2, 2017)

And how does that answer my question?

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## coachn (Feb 3, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> And how does that answer my question?


It doesn't.  It's just unfounded and immature bovine output.

The three GMs of Freemasonic lore were put forth within allegory.  They were not actual or real men.  They were personified concepts/ideals/characters.  That's how allegory works.  It's not factual.  It not historical.  It's not even fiction as we usually understand fiction.  Allegories are stories denoting veiled concepts that will only be understood at the mentality, development and maturity of the person listening, reading and, in my area, experiencing it.

In this case, believing they were real, that they all knew all the secrets alluded to within the allegory and that they were required to fly around the world overseeing every building being build reflects an understanding that is simply uncultivated enough to accept anything metaphoric, symbolic or figurative. 

In other words, such a view reflects a deficit of Trivial proportions, if you catch my drift.

Fellow Craft Work my good Brother.  Do its Work and you understand how sophists flourish in kingdoms where the ignorant feast upon rubbish.


----------



## dfreybur (Feb 3, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Real or fiction, the question remains why is the story told how it is....



Allegories are not about real people but they do teach truths about human nature.  The separability of inspiration, wealth and knowledge.  Rending unto God *, rendering unto Caesar, serving society. All more extreme principles than we see in most people but we should recognize all three types of excellence when we encounter them.

Also notice that Tyr was a foreign country.  In an era between wars we find cooperation.  Opponents turned to allies, allies turned to friends, friends turned to brothers.  All in a process that a couple of generations before had run the other direction and that a couple of generations later would run the other direction.  Back and forth across history back and forth together and apart.  But the greatest achievement happens when together.

One of the meanings I learned for Free in Free Mason was free to cross borders to do the work.  The physical work, the mental work, the social work.  So here we have two men called Hiram who crossed the border to do two types of work together with the local named Solomon.  And three men from the same point of origin with other names who ended up doing a different type of work.

Edit - I just noticing my typo of the word "rending" that should have been "rendering".  It's too strange a reference to the variety of human nature for me to correct it.  I have no idea what it means to "rend unto God" but whatever it means I'm going with it.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 3, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> Allegories are not about real people but they do teach truths about human nature.


Precisely.


----------



## Elexir (Feb 3, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> If Freemasonry were a science we would be able to test this proposition - for example, by using the working tools in a moral sense.



That it the work.
Can it be messured by us?
No only the thrice great can.


----------



## coachn (Feb 3, 2017)

> If Freemasonry were a science we would be able to test this proposition - for example, by using the working tools in a moral sense.


You should work on that trivial stuff dude.  It is  not a science.  It is theater and art.  There is no "if".

BTW - The statement "They were not actual or real men." is not a proposition AS IT APPLIES TO THE ALLEGORY presenting them as such.  This is a FACT of allegory and the allegory.  Allegory uses known characters from history and literature, but allegory itself is not presented as factual.  Hence, the characters of the story, no matter HOW real their historical or literal references might be, are still not real or actual people, within the context of the allegory. 

Studying, learning and applying the Trivium eliminates such speculative nonsense and is a good indicator that people putting such nonsense forth are in a fantasy land.

Of course, your mileage may vary.


----------



## Elexir (Feb 4, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> I know at least 5 brethren that can use some of the "working tools" in a "moral" sense to measure who is true to what.
> 
> Which is literal and which symbolic is very often a problem for the speculative Freemason.



Good for them.

The problem is that morality can not be messured objectivly as morals change with the times.


----------



## SimonM (Feb 4, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> How do we know that it is allegory rather than an actual event reformulated for a Masonic context?



I would say the first step would be to go back to earlier sources and see if the stories and text are actually there or if they are a more recent addtion. 
For example, we have ritual texts (at least fragments) from around 1740 in Swedish and French. From them we can study the development of the SweR and see what was added, parts that was moved around and what have been with us from the beginning. 

Alot of what you would think is old is more recent additions that have improved on the ritual. But since almost all masonic authors like to imply that they have ancient material they dress up their inventions so it looks like its from another era. Then, 250 years later it can be hard to see what was invented and what was not.


----------



## coachn (Feb 4, 2017)

> How do we know that it is allegory...


That is the question to ask.

When you have studied, learned and applied the Trivium, all the evidence is there to be known.  It's not rocket science.

When you realize Freemasonic "rituals" are fabricated script by multiple playwrights that have been adopted, adapted and adjusted for about 300 year old, the only history you become interested in as far as these scripts are concerned is who changed/added/adjusted/deleted what when and why.  

The "why" and "when" the most interesting of them all though since they pursue "reason" and "historical influence"; why did the playwright insert/change/remove what he did and what was going on at the time that influenced the change?  There are several things sewn within Ritual that are influenced by the time they were added.

However, there's a cross section of individuals who get caught up with, who get swept away and who promote fantasy in relation to Freemasonic Ritual and Lore.  They are easily spotted due to their lack of Trivial training along with the nonsense put forth.

(As an aside, Bro. Anderson borrowed and fabricated much of his materials from old manuscripts for entertainment purposes.  The challenge is not taking all this too serious and just do the Work to which alludes.)


> ...rather than an actual event reformulated for a Masonic context?


Because _surrounding literature, Freemasonic references-terms-allusions, common sense and simple sanity_ tells us that it is _allegory_, which by its very nature may use actual events and people, but is itself not actual events or people.

*Once again, when you do the Trivial Work, this doesn't have to be explained and questions and statements such as yours become seen for what they are.  *It is why Ritual points to Trivial Studies so that members come to realize what its plays are making effort to do: Transform the consciousness of members who do the Work _so that they don't come across like idiots and fools to those who have actually done the Work and so that they can participate in truly productive discourse.  _


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 4, 2017)

coachn said:


> Studying, learning and applying the Trivium eliminates such speculative nonsense and is a good indicator that people putting such nonsense forth are in a fantasy land.





Elexir said:


> The problem is that morality can not be messured objectivly as morals change with the times.





coachn said:


> However, there's a cross section of individuals who get caught up with, who get swept away and who promote fantasy in relation to Freemasonic Ritual and Lore. They are easily spotted due to their lack of Trivial training along with the nonsense put forth.


So we should be obsessed with the moral, not the literal since the literal does not exist.


----------



## coachn (Feb 4, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> So we should be obsessed with the moral, not the literal since the literal does not exist.


No.  We should pursue what our hearts ask of us, *but only* after we have done the Apprentice Work to bring Order to Chaos of the heart _so we don't pursue things that are nonsense, superfluous or harmful.

You can tell by a man's pursuits the Work he has done and the Work he has yet to do._


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 4, 2017)

coachn said:


> No.  We should pursue what our hearts ask of us, *but only* after we have done the Apprentice Work to bring Order to Chaos of the heart _so we don't pursue things that are nonsense, superfluous or harmful.
> 
> You can tell by a man's pursuits the Work he has done and the Work he has yet to do._


Good advice coachn, thanks. I'm here to learn.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Feb 5, 2017)

Elexir said:


> To strenghten the virtues and weaken the vices.


Perhaps this is the result of doing the work, not the work itself.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Feb 5, 2017)

coachn said:


> No.  We should pursue what our hearts ask of us, *but only* after we have done the Apprentice Work to bring Order to Chaos of the heart _so we don't pursue things that are nonsense, superfluous or harmful.
> 
> You can tell by a man's pursuits the Work he has done and the Work he has yet to do._


Just to follow up, and not to disagree at all, does one focus on the "Work to bring Order to Chaos of the heart" or is their another type of, or focus to, our work which brings this about as a side benefit?


----------



## Elexir (Feb 5, 2017)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Perhaps this is the result of doing the work, not the work itself.



That depends on the how you see it I guess.
I would not call it result, rather a goal.
You can always aim but in the end only (T)GATOU can decide if you achived it.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 5, 2017)

Elexir said:


> I would not call it result, rather a goal.
> You can always aim but in the end only (T)GATOU can decide if you achived it.


True!


----------



## coachn (Feb 5, 2017)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Just to follow up, and not to disagree at all, does one focus on the "Work to bring Order to Chaos of the heart" or is their another type of, or focus to, our work which brings this about as a side benefit?


Not too clear as to what you are asking here. 

The *Work* brings about the Order.  

That Order is a *benefit and result*. 

The Goal is to *mature youths to adulthood*.  That takes *Work.  
*
The focus however is *knowing thyself and taming the beast of self.  *

*I call it training the dog. ;-)*


----------



## Ripcord22A (Feb 5, 2017)

coachn said:


> Once again, when you do the Trivial Work, .  [/I]


What do u mean by Trivial work @coachn?



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## coachn (Feb 5, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> What do u mean by Trivial work @coachn?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


Trivial work: referring to the Trivium - Grammar, Logic & Rhetoric.  The study is crucial to understanding allegory.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 5, 2017)

coachn said:


> Trivial work: referring to the Trivium - Grammar, Logic & Rhetoric. The study is crucial to understanding allegory.


I learn something new almost every day on this forum.


----------



## coachn (Feb 5, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> I learn something new almost every day on this forum.


The Trivium is the first three of the 7 liberal arts and sciences.  The Quadrivium are the remaining four.  

Without studying them, you shall not know symbolic thought as you could, you'll come to imagine all sorts of nonsense and you'll actually believe you know what you're talking about. 

With them, you'll come to know God's creations.


----------



## Ripcord22A (Feb 5, 2017)

Ive never heard it called that before

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## coachn (Feb 6, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Ive never heard it called that before..


Good!  Now you can't say that any more ;-)


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 6, 2017)

coachn said:


> The Trivium is the first three of the 7 liberal arts and sciences. The Quadrivium are the remaining four.
> 
> Without studying them, you shall not know symbolic thought as you could, you'll come to imagine all sorts of nonsense and you'll actually believe you know what you're talking about.
> 
> With them, you'll come to know God's creations.


Thanks coachn.


Ripcord22A said:


> Ive never heard it called that before


Same here. Now I know.


----------



## dfreybur (Feb 6, 2017)

Elexir said:


> The problem is that morality can not be messured objectivly as morals change with the times.



The universe works by cause and effect.  Statistically once you've learned Quantum Mechanics but those who focus on the exceptions at the atomic level miss the point that cause and effect always works at larger scales.

Ethics is cause and effect written onto human society.  Where QM becomes exact to more and more decimal places as sizes grow, ethics still needs learning and understanding to reach that type of certainty.

Morality is a snapshot of the current culture's best effort at ethics.

Morals change with the time because they pursue a goal.

In our lectures we describe perfect character as possible to achieve but impractical to achieve.  That's exactly how morality works.  Ever working to improve, sometimes sliding back by error.


----------



## dfreybur (Feb 6, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> Which is literal and which symbolic is very often a problem for the speculative Freemason.



Because any good allegory teaches truth.  Because people want stories that teach truth to be truth.  It just does not work that way.

Others want stories that are fiction to not teach truth.  Debunkers tend to want to debunk everything about their target.  It just does not work that ay.


----------



## Elexir (Feb 6, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> The universe works by cause and effect.  Statistically once you've learned Quantum Mechanics but those who focus on the exceptions at the atomic level miss the point that cause and effect always works at larger scales.
> 
> Ethics is cause and effect written onto human society.  Where QM becomes exact to more and more decimal places as sizes grow, ethics still needs learning and understanding to reach that type of certainty.
> 
> ...



The problem with your defention of ethics are that there are never just one form of ethics but rather different posistion to judge diffrent situations.

Your description of the perfect man is the reason I find make good men better. To live with dignity to die with honour is much better as capturing the essence of the work.


----------



## dfreybur (Feb 6, 2017)

Elexir said:


> The problem with your defention of ethics are that there are never just one form of ethics but rather different posistion to judge diffrent situations.



Science includes relativity.  The fact that it's hard does not make it not science.  Should ethics ever make it through the mathematical transformation needed to become a physical science it would have to include relativity.  For the moment ethics as a science remains far too much in the descriptive phase.

So yes, you describe the current status while I described the end goal.


----------



## coachn (Feb 6, 2017)

*Working Guidelines*...

Laws are Causes & Effects that have been shown Not to Vary from Prediction and are based upon Past Results
Rules are Agreed upon Behaviors and Consequences, at least agreed upon by the rule makers
Ethics are Social Mores
Morality are Private Mores
Mores are Behaviors that Honor Values
Values are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Important.
Beliefs are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Real.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 6, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> Morality is a snapshot of the current culture's best effort at ethics.
> 
> Morals change with the time because they pursue a goal.


I agree. This is why that I have said that it is really not fair to judge people from the past by the morals of today.


----------



## Bloke (Feb 6, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> ....Ethics is cause and effect written onto human society....



I like that brother and I think it will stick in my brain for a long time...


----------



## Bloke (Feb 6, 2017)

coachn said:


> *Working Guidelines*...
> 
> Laws are Causes & Effects that have been shown Not to Vary from Prediction and are based upon Past Results
> Rules are Agreed upon Behaviors and Consequences, at least agreed upon by the rule makers
> ...


On 3 and 4 Coach, "private" would include any non-civic group such as a Church ?? What about a State Religion- is that a private or public more ?

Not sure I agree with "7, Beliefs are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Real." because I doubt so many of my beliefs and so strongly believe ( okay, sometimes believe) in my own stupidity and infallibility and that of others that "thought to be real" sees "real" as too strong a word. Most of my beliefs are subjective and not absolute


----------



## coachn (Feb 6, 2017)

Bloke said:


> On 3 and 4 Coach, "private" would include any non-civic group such as a Church ??


Absolutely.  When I think of "social", I am thinking of any unit of more than one person. 


Bloke said:


> What about a State Religion- is that a private or public more ?


The thing is, a group can call mores public or private, but it's still not personal to just one person when more than one is involved.  Perhaps "personal" rather than "private" would be a better choice as opposed to "social".


Bloke said:


> Not sure I agree with "7, Beliefs are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Real." because I doubt so many of my beliefs and so strongly believe ( okay, sometimes believe) in my own stupidity and infallibility and that of others that "thought to be real" sees "real" as too strong a word. Most of my beliefs are subjective and not absolute


Belief here is provided not as "faith"; although it can be.

Beliefs bring about values, which in turn brings about rules that honor those values and the behavior that follows to support those rules, which in turn move from personal mores (morality) to group mores (ethics).  Do you see the train of thought?


----------



## Bloke (Feb 6, 2017)

coachn said:


> .....  Do you see the train of thought?



Very clearly. I think values and beliefs are like the egg/chicken question.


I think a belief is just that. A belief is a belief and faith and belief are interchangeable. (?)

"...perrhaps "personal" rather than "private" would be a better choice as opposed to "social".

It is tricky. I think we need to distinguish between the collective and indervidual but the problem is how "social" does it need to before it's no longer "private" I think that's why a Church is a good one to through in the mix. Or maybe it's the willingness to adjust our position which needs to be considered when examining morality vrs ethics or the methodology to evaluate them or the criteria for the change? Dfreybur often has good thoughts on this. I like your list, but think it needs tweaking but feel it's really close to being spot on.

( currently typing 1 finger standing on a peak express train worried about being late... not ideal thinking conditions!!!)


----------



## coachn (Feb 6, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Very clearly. I think values and beliefs are like the egg/chicken question.
> 
> 
> I think a belief is just that. A belief is a belief and faith and belief are interchangeable. (?)
> ...


I have no investment in the list other than wanting it to stir some thought.  I am open to tweaking it if it improves its usefulness and "value" to those who care to use it.

I hold that faith is a choice to believe, regardless of evidence for or against.  Belief can be chosen based upon perceived evidence too. In this respect, I see Faith as a subset of belief.

To further the morals vs ethics, perhaps using the word individual (morals) vs collective (ethics) is more spot on.  I see the two are used interchangeably by others.  I lean toward morals being what an individual has and ethics to be more of a group grope.


----------



## Ripcord22A (Feb 6, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> If the "working tools" can be used in a "moral" sense would that allow testing of social values for trueness to the GAOTU?
> 
> If so, Freemasonry, in possession of the genuine secrets, might actually be able make good people better in an absolute sense - rather than improve their conformity to the morality of their society.
> 
> Is that why Freemasonry's peculiar system of morality is veiled in allegory?


U don't actually use the tools...how the hell would u actually use a pair of compasses to keep ur self in check?  Its just another Allegory to remind u to keep urself in checj

Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## Ripcord22A (Feb 6, 2017)

Nope no change cause inanimate objects dont effect thd way i feel

Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## Bloke (Feb 6, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> Does that include your car?


Especially when its doesnt start !

I am always using the compasses (and 24 inch guage).... is that proposal within my skill and ability (and time)..


----------



## Bloke (Feb 6, 2017)

coachn said:


> I have no investment in the list other than wanting it to stir some thought.  I am open to tweaking it if it improves its usefulness and "value" to those who care to use it.
> 
> I hold that faith is a choice to believe, regardless of evidence for or against.  Belief can be chosen based upon perceived evidence too. In this respect, I see Faith as a subset of belief.
> 
> To further the morals vs ethics, perhaps using the word individual (morals) vs collective (ethics) is more spot on.  I see the two are used interchangeably by others.  I lean toward morals being what an individual has and ethics to be more of a group grope.



I  agree with the above and like your list

*Working Guidelines*...

Laws are Causes & Effects that have been shown Not to Vary from Prediction and are based upon Past Result
Note sure about this one... Laws are not always so scientific.. but it does work for the purpose


Rules are Agreed upon Behaviors and Consequences, at least agreed upon by the rule makers
or 
Rules are Agreed upon Behaviors and perceived Consequences, at least agreed upon by the rule makers


Ethics are Social Mores
Or
Ethics are Social Mores held, discussed, adjusted and agreed by wider society.


Morality are Private Mores
or
Morality comprises Private Mores held by individuals and also specific groups of people sharing a common morality


Mores are Behaviors that Honor Values
Values are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Important.


Beliefs are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Real.
Or
Beliefs are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Real, true and/or right
I do love a good list Coach


----------



## coachn (Feb 7, 2017)

> Does that include your car?


Only when it is animated...


----------



## coachn (Feb 7, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> U don't actually use the tools...how the hell would u actually use a pair of compasses to keep ur self in check?  Its just another Allegory to remind u to keep urself in checj
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app



http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2017/02/a-brother-asks-how-to-use-compasses.html


----------



## coachn (Feb 7, 2017)

Bloke said:


> I  agree with the above and like your list
> 
> *Working Guidelines*...
> 
> ...


I love when a good Brother takes good materials and makes them better.  KUDOS!


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 7, 2017)

coachn said:


> I hold that faith is a choice to believe, regardless of evidence for or against. Belief can be chosen based upon perceived evidence too. In this respect, I see Faith as a subset of belief.


True.


Ripcord22A said:


> U don't actually use the tools...how the hell would u actually use a pair of compasses to keep ur self in check? Its just another Allegory to remind u to keep urself in checj


Also true.


----------



## dfreybur (Feb 7, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> how the hell would u actually use a pair of compasses to keep ur self in check?



An addition to the symbolic use of the compasses by describing the range of behavior we should engage it, there is the indirect effect when using the instrument in a profession.

Crafts or professions that use a compass include carpentry, masonry, architecture, drafting, mechanical engineering and so on.  The work in these professions is exacting and systematic.  Do the work correctly and the result is a product that lasts.  It's why the tool was chosen for symbolic purposes.  But think about the influence of the elderly Brothers at lodge have on the younger Brothers at lodge.  The influence of the type of work that uses the compasses is similar for those who engage in those fields.


----------



## dfreybur (Feb 7, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> I agree. This is why that I have said that it is really not fair to judge people from the past by the morals of today.



Each generation recognizes an injustice practiced by previous generations.  I have no idea what injustice I commit but I've read enough history to know the generation of my grandchildren will notice and start the work of resolving it.  At which point I'll have no idea what they are doing and why.  I pray that my grand children's grand children look upon me with just enough generosity that I knew not what I did.


----------



## Bloke (Feb 7, 2017)

coachn said:


> http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2017/02/a-brother-asks-how-to-use-compasses.html





			
				from above link said:
			
		

> *My Response: *For them (compasses) to do any good, you must first internalize them.



Indeed. A good topic. I find at different times I tend to rely on different tools which is not just related to the problem but where *I* am at in life.... i sometimes wonder if the secret is knowing which tool to use. For instance, when examining a charitable need, I rarely apply the 24 inch guage or compasses (measurement)  to see if I've got the time but the tools of justice (square, plumb). I need to do better on which tool I pick up, which is the secret to any tool.... you don't use hammers to put in screws...


----------



## coachn (Feb 7, 2017)

Bloke said:


> ... you don't use hammers to put in screws...


----------



## dfreybur (Feb 8, 2017)

Bloke said:


> I need to do better on which tool I pick up, which is the secret to any tool.... you don't use hammers to put in screws...



"When the only tool you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail."  I have literally pounded in screws with a rock because I was in a remote location with nothing but a rock, which rock I processed by a ceremony "Rock, I dub thee a hammer".  Wrong headed approach, but there are times when a wrong headed approach is what you have.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 8, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> I have literally pounded in screws with a rock because I was in a remote location with nothing but a rock, which rock I processed by a ceremony "Rock, I dub thee a hammer".


Lol...I like this!


----------



## Brother JC (Feb 8, 2017)

Not to be confused with a "Glasgow Kiss," which will also drive screws and nails into walls. Painfully.


----------



## Kade (Jun 3, 2017)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> One of the greatest mysteries for me personally is why do Masons consider the north a place of darkness?  Most of the Masons I have asked this question have referred to the explanation given in the ritual.  When I tried to press them further I quickly discovered that they had no ideas other than quoting the ritual.  What do you think?  is there another reason why the north is traditionally a place of darkness?
> 
> Further, Symbolically, what does the north represent?  What does the symbol of darkness teach us?



Are you sure that there are only 33 degrees? I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the North. You know what is more valuable than gold on this planet? Discernment...especially when surrounded by vipers.


----------



## Elexir (Jun 3, 2017)

Kade said:


> Are you sure that there are only 33 degrees? I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the North. You know what is more valuable than gold on this planet? Discernment...especially when surrounded by vipers.



There exist only three degree. The rest are high degreess wich has diffrences in number of degrees and the ideas from theritual creators.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Jun 3, 2017)

Kade said:


> Are you sure that there are only 33 degrees?


According to conspiracy theorist Alex Jones he has "proof" there there are actually 180 degrees, so he says...lol.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Jun 4, 2017)

JamestheJust said:


> I was in a Scottish lodge not long ago and the DC (who often attended English lodges) had set up the S&C on the VSL with the square to the East - contrary to the arrangement used by local Scottish lodges.
> 
> This was before the brethren had entered so I pointed this out and asked him to feel the atmosphere in the temple and then turn around the S&C so the compasses were in the East. He immediately felt the temple become more peaceful. So he made the changes a couple more times and each time the square was in the East he could feel the tension rise.


Really? Well....I may try this.


----------



## hanzosbm (Jan 26, 2018)

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just read an interesting thought that I figured could add something here.

In Manly Hall's Secret Teachings of All Ages, he discusses the idea of Elementals; beings of an etheric nature.  Now, don't get me wrong, Hall was a bit of a whack job, but we're not discussing what is true, we're discussing the beliefs of those who created the ritual.

He says: "Mediæval mystics gave a corner of creation (one of the cardinal points) to each of the four kingdoms of Nature spirits, and because of their earthy character the gnomes were assigned to the North--the place recognized by the ancients as the source of darkness and death. One of the four main divisions of human disposition was also assigned to the gnomes, and because so many of them dwelt in the darkness of caves and the gloom of forests their temperament was said to be melancholy, gloomy, and despondent. By this it is not meant that they themselves are of such disposition, but rather that they have special control over elements of similar consistency."

In the Gnostic and Hermetic philosophies, the material world is seen as the antithesis of the spiritual world and in some cases, evil.  If the men creating these rituals were of the same idea as Hall and the Gnostics, then they may have felt that the north offered no spiritual light.

I know, it's a bit of a reach, but...this is all about various theories anyway, right?


----------



## Warrior1256 (Jan 26, 2018)

hanzosbm said:


> In the Gnostic and Hermetic philosophies, the material world is seen as the antithesis of the spiritual world and in some cases, evil. If the men creating these rituals were of the same idea as Hall and the Gnostics, then they may have felt that the north offered no spiritual light.
> 
> I know, it's a bit of a reach, but...this is all about various theories anyway, right?


It's as good a theory as any.


----------



## coachn (Jan 26, 2018)

hanzosbm said:


> S... If the men creating these rituals were of the same idea as Hall and the Gnostics, then they may have felt that the north offered no spiritual light.
> 
> I know, it's a bit of a reach, but...this is all about various theories anyway, right?


Joseph Campbell offered up, in his "Power of Myth" "and "Transformations of myth through time", that the North was a place of unknowns and to go there when you wanted adventure and much needed change.  He cites many mythologies, such as the native Americans, that had this "North" theme within their tales.


----------



## Pointwithinacircle3 (Jan 30, 2018)

JamestheJust said:


> Who among the brethren pursues the genuine secrets?


"If one does not know to which port one is sailing no wind I'd favorable"  Or to answer you more clearly, if I am unsure of what the genuine secrets are where shall I seek them?


----------



## Bloke (Jan 31, 2018)

JamestheJust said:


> Who among the brethren pursues the genuine secrets?


Who's to say what they are ? ... but I like Point's response..


----------



## LK600 (Jan 31, 2018)

Pointwithinacircle3 said:


> "If one does not know to which port one is sailing no wind I'd favorable"  Or to answer you more clearly, if I am unsure of what the genuine secrets are where shall I seek them?


Well said.


----------



## dfreybur (Jan 31, 2018)

Pointwithinacircle3 said:


> Or to answer you more clearly, if I am unsure of what the genuine secrets are where shall I seek them?



We have lots of meaning.  Some are genuine secrets to me.  Others are genuine secrets to you.  Seek within.


----------



## Pointwithinacircle3 (Jan 31, 2018)

JamestheJust said:


> It is a good question but not difficult for those that accomplish  the work of the FC


If I am unsure of what the work of the FC is how shall I accomplish........   Oh well, let's just leave that for now and assume that anyone who has heard the ritual understands it.  But, even so, I find an intetesting comparison to flying an airplane.  One can comprehend all manner of knowledge about takeoffs, controlling in the air, and landing an airplane.  However, whether this knowledge can be translated into an actual flight is highly questionable.  

As the recently elected SD of my Lodge I am studying this material quite intently at this time.  If I  struck by enlightenment I shall let you know.


----------



## LK600 (Jan 31, 2018)

Pointwithinacircle3 said:


> If I am unsure of what the work of the FC is how shall I accomplish........   Oh well, let's just leave that for now and assume that anyone who has heard the ritual understands it.  But, even so, I find an intetesting comparison to flying an airplane.  One can comprehend all manner of knowledge about takeoffs, controlling in the air, and landing an airplane.  However, whether this knowledge can be translated into an actual flight is highly questionable.
> 
> As the recently elected SD of my Lodge I am studying this material quite intently at this time.  If I  struck by enlightenment I shall let you know.


I Understand your dilemma and can, in some aspects relate.  Whether there's 1 meaning or 50, knowing where to start is required; everything else is just fluff.  I wish you well on your journey my Brother.


----------



## coachn (Jan 31, 2018)

JustJames said:
			
		

> > JustJames said:
> >
> >
> >
> ...


But only_ after_ they have first accomplished the Work of the Apprentice.

To earnestly believe you can accomplish the FC Work without first doing the Apprentice Work is to believe the intellect can be trained while harnessed to an untamed heart.  Those who encourage others to do so are snake oil salesmen who market and sell harm to those who believe them.

BTW - The genuine secret IS the training, bringing order to chaos, of the heart and the head, in that order.  _Anyone who *tells you, implies, hints, *and *alludes* otherwise does not know what they are talking about and is trying to sell you bovine output._


----------



## acjohnson53 (Feb 23, 2018)

Deep. good stuff. Masters at work, preach Brothers, Walk around that Square...Love it...


----------



## jermy Bell (Mar 3, 2018)

There are no windows on the north side lol !


----------



## Warrior1256 (Mar 4, 2018)

coachn said:


> BTW - The genuine secret IS the training, bringing order to chaos, of the heart and the head, in that order


Agreed!


----------



## Jason Pooser (Jan 15, 2019)

Read your EA lecture, the temple was so far north, and as the lodge is a representation of the temple or the world, therefore the North is a place of darkness.


----------



## Elexir (Jan 16, 2019)

JamestheJust said:


> >therefore the North is a place of darkness.
> 
> Except in midsummer when the sun shines 24 hours a day in the far north



It shines all day during the summer not just midsummer in the far north.


----------



## Elexir (Jan 16, 2019)

JamestheJust said:


> So we are agreed that the North is not the place of darkness for most of the year.
> 
> And since Freemasonry is universally spread across the surface of the Earth, it must exist in the southern hemisphere, where the North is the place of light.
> 
> There must be another meaning.



Freemasonry is not alone with considering the north as being lesser.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Jan 16, 2019)

Elexir said:


> Freemasonry is not alone with considering the north as being lesser.


True. Must be some reason way back in history.


----------



## Elexir (Jan 16, 2019)

Warrior1256 said:


> True. Must be some reason way back in history.



One brother put in down in my opionion. "Freemasonry is a best of collection of diffrent ideas melted together."


----------



## LK600 (Jan 16, 2019)

_"Q. - Why not north also?

A. - In regard we dwell at the north part of the world we burie no dead at the north side of our churches so we cary a Vacancey at the north side of our Lodges.


Q. - Why east and west?

A. - Because churches stands eats and west and porches to the south.


Q. - Why doth churches stand east and west?

A. - In ffour references.


Q. - What are they?

A. - First our first parance was placed Eastward in edin - secondly the East winde dryed up the sea before the children of Israell so was the temple of the Lord to be builded - thirdly these who dwell near the Equenoxall the sun riseth and seteth west on them - fourthly the stare appeared in the East that advertised both the sheep heards and wise men that our saviour was come in the flesh."_

-  Graham Manuscript excerpt


----------



## Elexir (Jan 16, 2019)

LK600 said:


> _"Q. - Why not north also?
> 
> A. - In regard we dwell at the north part of the world we burie no dead at the north side of our churches so we cary a Vacancey at the north side of our Lodges.
> 
> ...



Funny enough, if taken litteraly the Graham documents points towards a christian tradition in freemasonry 

However, the answer dont make any sense south of the equator


----------



## Warrior1256 (Jan 16, 2019)

Elexir said:


> One brother put in down in my opionion. "Freemasonry is a best of collection of diffrent ideas melted together."





LK600 said:


> Q. - Why not north also?
> 
> A. - In regard we dwell at the north part of the world we burie no dead at the north side of our churches so we cary a Vacancey at the north side of our Lodges.


I like these.


----------



## LK600 (Jan 16, 2019)

Elexir said:


> Funny enough, if taken litteraly the Graham documents points towards a christian tradition in freemasonry



Agreed, though a great many things in Freemasonry point to a Christian / Judaic tradition (which would be what would be expected given time frame and location(s). 



Elexir said:


> However, the answer dont make any sense south of the equator



No lol, it would not.  But again, taking into account time frame and location, it makes perfect sense in it's writing.


----------



## coachn (Jan 16, 2019)

LK600 said:


> Agreed, though a great many things in Freemasonry point to a Christian / Judaic tradition (which would be what would be expected given time frame and location(s).


FM Ritual: Classic Greek Philosophy masked in Biblical Characterizations to Purposefully Throw Off the Scent Trail for Zealots.


----------



## LK600 (Jan 16, 2019)

coachn said:


> FM Ritual: Classic Greek Philosophy masked in Biblical Characterizations to Purposefully Throw Off the Scent Trail for Zealots.



Greek?!  Good sir, I believe you meant The *Mithraic* Philosophy!


----------



## Bloke (Jan 16, 2019)

coachn said:


> FM Ritual: Classic Greek Philosophy masked in Biblical Characterizations to Purposefully Throw Off the Scent Trail for Zealots.


I like this Bro, but I think Freemasonry references more ideas than just Classical Greek Philosophy but also the Enlightenment (lack of Dogma and reference to science) and Reformation (personal relationship with the divine rather than blind obedience to a dogma). Many would want to throw earlier religions in ("Mithraic Philosophy" mentioned above) and cosmologies (Kabbalah) and spiritual traditions (Kabbalah again, but also Catharism).

It is an amalgam


----------



## LK600 (Jan 16, 2019)

Bloke said:


> It is an amalgam



This I would completely agree with, if for no other reason than a Diachronical view.


----------



## coachn (Jan 16, 2019)

LK600 said:


> Greek?!  Good sir, I believe you meant The *Mithraic* Philosophy!


LOL! Nope.  But I can see how that could occur.


----------



## coachn (Jan 16, 2019)

Bloke said:


> I like this Bro, but I think Freemasonry references more ideas than just Classical Greek Philosophy but also the Enlightenment (lack of Dogma and reference to science) and Reformation (personal relationship with the divine rather than blind obedience to a dogma). Many would want to throw earlier religions in ("Mithraic Philosophy" mentioned above) and cosmologies (Kabbalah) and spiritual traditions (Kabbalah again, but also Catharism).
> 
> It is an amalgam


It does now.  However, innovations will do that


----------



## Elexir (Jan 16, 2019)

coachn said:


> FM Ritual: Classic Greek Philosophy masked in Biblical Characterizations to Purposefully Throw Off the Scent Trail for Zealots.



Depends on the ritual


----------



## coachn (Jan 16, 2019)

Elexir said:


> Depends on the ritual


Yep.  Certainly does.  And the more the ritual radiates from the 1717 start, the more you'll see innovations.


----------



## Elexir (Jan 16, 2019)

JamestheJust said:


> Having read a modest amount of mythology, I have only found our third degree penalty in ancient Egypt.



If you are refering to the organs it was far from any sort of punishment.


----------



## Bloke (Jan 17, 2019)

coachn said:


> It does now.  However, innovations will do that


Innovations ? ! Blasphemy !


----------



## coachn (Jan 17, 2019)

Bloke said:


> Innovations ? ! Blasphemy !


LOL!


----------



## Elexir (Jan 17, 2019)

JamestheJust said:


> We have established that the North is not literally a place of darkness for most of the year, and the South Pole has the same characteristics.
> 
> So what is the Masonic intent when stating that the North is the place of darkness?



What is the reasons that other traditions uses the north as something of lesser worth?

Masonic tradition is not a separate tradition but has a basis in tradition wich has been slightly modified to prove certain points.


----------



## Elexir (Jan 18, 2019)

JamestheJust said:


> >Masonic tradition is not a separate tradition
> 
> Then we can ask why the lodge does not have an officer in the North when some other ritual forms certainly do so.
> 
> ...



First, it should be noted that ritual is never universal and diffrent rituals have diffrent officers in diffrent places.

If we look at the dionysian mysteries the entrence at the north was reserved for the lesser worth.

In the middle ages the accused in a trail was placed in the north facing south.

Looking at norse mythology the realms of the dead that are considerd "bad" are placed in the north.

So we can see a common theme with north being of less worth in many diffrent cultures and since freemasonry is not culturally indipendent indipendant (look at the graham manuscript) it incoporate it into the ritual.


----------



## coachn (Jan 18, 2019)

Elexir said:


> First, it should be noted that ritual is never universal and diffrent rituals have diffrent officers in diffrent places.
> 
> If we look at the dionysian mysteries the entrence at the north was reserved for the lesser worth.
> 
> ...


Native America lore uses the North symbolically to represent:

1) the unknown; mysteries
2) a place of transformation-discovery-recovery-uncover-danger-wonder
3) where heroes MUST go to face what must be faced to transform the world for the better, save themselves-others or undergo an arduous superhuman task.​
In other words, that's the place you don't want to avoid, unless you're a wussymon.


----------



## Brother JC (Jan 18, 2019)

I’m not sure about anyone else’s ritual but in the one I was Initiated with it specifically states that it is WITHIN the temple that the sun did not reach the north, not in the geographical location.

@coachn  Good addition, I was remembering similar traditions.


----------



## Elexir (Jan 18, 2019)

coachn said:


> Native America lore uses the North symbolically to represent:
> 
> 1) the unknown; mysteries
> 2) a place of transformation-discovery-recovery-uncover-danger-wonder
> ...



Intressting. I have basicly no knowledge about native american tradition for obvious reasons


----------



## Warrior1256 (Jan 18, 2019)

coachn said:


> In other words, that's the place you don't want to avoid, unless you're a wussymon.


***snicker, snicker***


----------



## coachn (Jan 18, 2019)

Brother JC said:


> I’m not sure about anyone else’s ritual but in the one I was Initiated with it specifically states that it is WITHIN the temple that the sun did not reach the north, not in the geographical location.


And, if you follow the direction provided to us by Ritual, you take this hint and run with it for further education into how shadows across the face of the earth differ by location, time and orientation.


Brother JC said:


> @coachn  Good addition, I was remembering similar traditions.


Thanks!  Good to know I am not the only one.


----------



## coachn (Jan 18, 2019)

Elexir said:


> Intressting. I have basicly no knowledge about native american tradition for obvious reasons


I didn't either, at first.  However, as a young boy, I read up a lot about them, visited the museums in may area (LI NY) and as an adult, I was introduced to JC* and my whole life view grew wider and deeper.

* Joseph Campbell


----------



## Elexir (Jan 18, 2019)

coachn said:


> I didn't either, at first.  However, as a young boy, I read up a lot about them, visited the museums in may area (LI NY) and as an adult, I was introduced to JC* and my whole life view grew wider and deeper.
> 
> * Joseph Campbell



No native american musems over here though. But a lot of norse and bronze age things.


----------



## coachn (Jan 18, 2019)

Elexir said:


> No native american musems over here though. But a lot of norse and bronze age things.


Way Cool!!!!


----------



## Schuetz (Jan 20, 2019)

I am intrigued by the legend of Cavelum. It is more interesting than the literal answer. I've always noted that in the Third Degree, it is the Sea Captain that sits in the north. However, I've found very little on his importance in my studies. In a diagram of a Lodge (I have the name Harold W. Percival next to it in my notes) there is a Zodiac circle drawn over it with Capricorn in the East, Libra in the South, Cancer in the West, and Aquarius in the North. I'm not sure the symbolism, but it is Astronomy not Astrology that constitutes one of the Seven Arts & Sciences.

Quentin E. L. Schuetz, M.M.
Shekinah Lodge No. 241 • IL


----------



## John Byron Carlisle IV (Jan 24, 2019)

As Marshall of Nevada #13, and in watch of my brother's etiquette. I commend all of you . Your conversation and or debate is of the highest regard for each other. You all are showing your obligations honorable.


----------



## Elexir (Sep 30, 2019)

Bro CN said:


> According to the Hermetic tradition, the four cardinal points represent the four traditional elements of Air (heat and moisture) in the East; Water (cold and moisture) in the West; Fire (heat and dryness) in the South and Earth (cold and dryness) in the North. When conducting ceremonial magic, Kabbalists further place the Archangel of Air, Raphael dressed in yellow, to the East; the Archangel of Water, Gabriel dressed in blue, to the West; the Archangel of Fire, Michael dressed in red, to the South; and the Archangel of Earth, Uriel dressed in black, to the North. This I believe could be one of the reasons why the north is considered as a place of darkness since the color attributed to it in the Hermetic tradition is black.



The North as a place of darkness is found in many mythologies so its most likley not that easy.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Sep 30, 2019)

Elexir said:


> The North as a place of darkness is found in many mythologies so its most likley not that easy.


Agreed!


----------



## Matt Ross (Dec 7, 2019)

coachn said:


> There is an interesting legend of a Temple workman whose name was Cavelum. He was kinsman of King Solomon and was the house of David; thus he had high status among the other workmen. In the process of inspection of work in progress on the north wall of the Temple at a place where the north gate was to be, Hiram Abif accidentally dislodged a stone. It fell and struck Cavelum, who was killed. Hiram Abif was so overcome by grief that he ordered the north gate sealed and closed forever. (5)
> 
> This legend was once used as the basis for a degree called Fellow Craft Mark. Dr. Albert Mackey has stated that this was an early trace of the present Mark Master degree.
> 
> http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/artfeb02/OLD LEGENDS OF HIRAM ABIFF.HTM


I didn't know that brother! Thanks for sharing this light!


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