# Question on if you have ever been charged with a felony?



## ndfire83 (Feb 2, 2010)

I have asked a few people in my home Lodge and no one has an answer on if that is a "deal breaker". I have heard that there might be a person that is going to petition our Lodge and has been charged with a felony. Does that mean we can't let him in? Like I said earlier in ND I can't get a satisfying answer.


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## Dragon (Feb 2, 2010)

It has been my experience that this issue should be taken on a case by case basis. There are a number of factors that can come into play here. First, how long ago was the conviction?  Was this a "young and dumb" type situation? Were they just caught up in a "wrong place, wrong time" type of thing? What was the charge for which they were convicted.  I know people personally that will NOT petition a lodge because while they are NOW the type of man that Masonry seeks, they know that the conviction from their ignorant actions in their youth will be a hindrance to their progressing beyond submitting a petition. I also know of others whom were convicted in their youth of crimes, they served their time, and because it was a juvenile offense, the records are now sealed.  They could have denied any conviction, but honesty and their conscience would not let them hide the truth. That alone in my opinion makes them worthy to be a Mason.


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## MGM357 (Feb 2, 2010)

Not to sound like a hardcore, but if we are not to allow any man with a felony to become a part of our fraternity, then that's the way it is. I don't like the idea that a felony can be overlooked because it was a long time ago, wrong place, wrong time, etc. small exceptions today can turn into larger exceptions tomorrow. Here's an example: Two 18 yr old men both both committed a crime, one was arm robbery the other sexual assualt. Both did their time ( without parole). They are now hard working men, married, etc.
Which one is the exception? and which one is the rule?


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## Dragon (Feb 2, 2010)

I didn't say there was an exception, I said that there were a number of factors to take into consideration. One of which being the crime itself.  Armed Robberies and Sexual Assault would both fall under the similar categories, whereas a Posession charge may not, i.e. someone honestly left the stuff in his car and he got pulled over and did not know it was in there. In that instance, because it was HIS car, he should have known what was in there, however his buddy decided to stuff the bag under the passenger seat and forgot to remove it when he got out of the car. 
I don't think someone with an armed robbery or sexual assault conviction would be petitioning a lodge once they got to that question, they would most likely think "Well, that counts me out", and stop right there.   As I said, I know many a good men that would not even consider petitioning a lodge because they have a felony conviction on their record, and I know others who have petitioned a lodge and had a conviction on their record. It is the job of the investigation committee to do their job and make their recommendations based on their interviews with the candidate and report their findings to the lodge.  It is then up to the Lodge as to whether or not they will receive the degrees in Masonry.


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## Bill Lins (Feb 3, 2010)

ndfire83 said:


> I have asked a few people in my home Lodge and no one has an answer on if that is a "deal breaker". I have heard that there might be a person that is going to petition our Lodge and has been charged with a felony. Does that mean we can't let him in? Like I said earlier in ND I can't get a satisfying answer.


 
It is not an automatic disqualifier _in Texas_. YGLMV (your Grand Lodge may vary).


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## ndfire83 (Feb 3, 2010)

Bro.'s I apperciate everones input. I hope this question didn't cause hard feelings between any of you. I orginally was thinking the same thing that if you have been convicted then that was it, they shouldn't be accepted. But, the more I think about it and read what you all had to say, maybe it does matter what the crime was. Dragon you are absolutely right, it is up to the investigation committee. That is why I asked the question, I am sure I will be on that committee. We haven't been real active in our Lodge for the past few years. I am trying to get the guys back to doing everything we are supposed to do. We are investigating a few right now, and as I am a young man very interested in Masonry, I have been put on the committee. I am sure, after talking with the Master of our Lodge that I will be involved in all the invesigations this year. That is the reason i posted the question, I wonted to get the opnions of as many Brothers as I could so that if this man does petition the Lodge I can do the invesigation without worrying, am I giving the man the credit he should get. 

Fraternally Yours,


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## MGM357 (Feb 3, 2010)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> It is not an automatic disqualifier _in Texas_. YGLMV (your Grand Lodge may vary).


 
What does the GLOT law say about this?


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## Bill Lins (Feb 3, 2010)

MGM357 said:


> What does the GLOT law say about this?


 
Only that it must be disclosed in the petition.


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## Michael Ray (Feb 3, 2010)

Brethren if a may, I have recently as Master of my lodge had to contact the DDGM on felony afars.  As I had it explained to me if a brother is convicted of a felony he in Texas is to receive a life time suspension. So if he is charged you may want to tread carefully on letting him in if he is about to get a conviction and be suspended. Now I thought he could be reinstated when he has served his time but I was told such is not the case.


Mike Miles
WM Homer #254


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## Bill Lins (Feb 3, 2010)

kg_hart said:


> I know of a Mason who has been charged with Murder and he is an endowed member. What happens to his endowment if he is convicted?


 
He forfeits his endowment to the Lodge. Art. 318 (a) 8.

"8. Holders of endowed membership certificates are subject to all
of the provisions of the Constitution and Laws of the Grand Lodge of
Texas, and loss of membership due to suspension or expulsion shall
automatically terminate such endowed membership certificate, and
shall cause such holder to forfeit his endowed membership and any
future claim to fees paid or to revenues earned from such endowed
membership. The Lodge which held the endowed membership at the
time of forfeiture, as provided herein, shall continue to receive the
revenues earned from such endowed membership.


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## Bill Lins (Feb 3, 2010)

Michael Ray said:


> Brethren if a may, I have recently as Master of my lodge had to contact the DDGM on felony afars.  As I had it explained to me if a brother is convicted of a felony he in Texas is to receive a life time suspension.<snip> Now I thought he could be reinstated when he has served his time but I was told such is not the case.



Worshipful, I'm afraid you were misinformed. A Brother who is convicted of a felony is automatically suspended but, except as provided for in the last two paragraphs of Art. 658, 
the former Brother may apply to his parent Lodge for reinstatement & restoration upon having "paid his debt to society".

CHAPTER 20 - TITLE V
REINSTATEMENT AND RESTORATION

Art. 656. Definitions.

 Reinstatement and restoration have
generally the same meaning and are often used interchangeably.
In these statutes they are given separate and distinct meanings,
as follows:

Reinstatement is applied to membership in a Lodge or in the
Grand Lodge and carries with it the rights, privileges and honors
attaching to such membership. It means re-establishment of
membership when such membership has been lost through fault
or dereliction.

Restoration is applied to the rights and privileges of
Freemasonry and means the reinvestiture of those rights and
privileges when they have been lost through fault or dereliction.
A Mason so restored, if he is not also reinstated, has the status of
an unaffiliated Mason.

Art. 657. Jurisdiction. The Lodge of which the accused, in a
Masonic disciplinary proceeding, was a member at the time of his
loss of membership has exclusive jurisdiction over his reinstatement
and restoration.

(a) Where a Mason holds a plural membership and that
Brother is expelled or suspended for a Masonic disciplinary
violation, jurisdiction for reinstatement and/or
restoration is vested in the parent Lodge. The parent
Lodge, however, by majority vote at a stated meeting of
that Lodge, can assign its jurisdiction to any other Lodge
where membership was held by that Mason.

(b) The Grand Lodge has exclusive jurisdiction to reinstate
to membership therein, except where automatic
reinstatement is provide for elsewhere in this Title.

Art. 658. Reinstatement Or Restoration By Lodge.
Petition And Vote. 

The Lodge having jurisdiction may, by a favorable
ballot of the members of said Lodge present, reinstate or
restore, as the case may be, a suspended or expelled Mason. A
written petition for such reinstatement or restoration, signed by
the petitioner, must be filed with the Secretary and presented to
the Lodge reciting facts showing that he has made expiation for
his offense and has discharged the terms and conditions of his
sentence, including completion of probation, parole, or supervised
release; said petition shall be read at the first stated meeting of
the Lodge after it is filed. 

The Worshipful Master shall appoint a committee
on investigation which shall report its findings and
recommendations at a subsequent stated meeting of the Lodge
whereupon a ballot shall be taken upon said petition. Only
members of the Lodge in attendance may vote. 

In balloting on a suspended or expelled Mason for reinstatement or restoration,
other than for non-payment of dues, three black balls shall reject
for one year, four blackballs for two years and five or more blackballs
for three years. 

Protests shall be allowed in accordance with Article 660, and the ballot 
shall be announced accordingly.

Notwithstanding the above, any member who is found guilty
of, or who enters a plea of guilty, or of no contest to the charge of
pedophilia or related charges (such as Indecency with a Child by
sexual contact or any other means, Aggravated Sexual Assault
with a child by any means and Sexual Assault with a Child by any
means) and having been previously expelled from Masonry, shall
not be considered for reinstatement or restoration of any Masonic
membership and said member shall be expelled from Masonry for
life and never again be considered for any Masonic related activity
or membership. 

Any current Member having been charged and found guilty of, or 
having pleaded no contest to charges of pedophilia (such as Indecency 
with a Child by sexual contact or any other means, Aggravated Sexual 
Assault with a child by any means, Sexual Assault with a Child by any 
means) shall be expelled immediately, for life, from this Grand Jurisdiction.
 (Adopted, 2003)


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## MGM357 (Feb 3, 2010)

If a Brother is covicted of a felony is automatically suspended, should we try to look at a petitioner of the Lodge through the same eyes? He would automatically be not worthy of the Degrees of Masonry.


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## Bill Lins (Feb 3, 2010)

I think I would advise him to withdraw his petition until his situation is resolved, one way or the other.


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## Michael Ray (Feb 4, 2010)

I didn't mean to e imply he was unworthy. Just to make sure all avenues from grand Lodge have been checked. Thanks BILL_LINS for the info I will look into that. I was told that he could be reinstated that was why I contacted the DDGM.


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## tomasball (Feb 4, 2010)

This came up a couple of years ago, and we searched out a grand master's decision from 1923 that says if a petitioner has served time in the penitentiary, the matter is left to the discretion of the lodge he is petitioning.

Tom Ball
San Juan 1173


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## JTM (Feb 4, 2010)

doesn't the felony have to be of "moral terpitude?"


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## ndfire83 (Feb 4, 2010)

MGM357 said:


> If a Brother is covicted of a felony is automatically suspended, should we try to look at a petitioner of the Lodge through the same eyes? He would automatically be not worthy of the Degrees of Masonry.



I agree, if he would be suspended, then some one who has commited the act in the past should be looked at a lot harder than some one who has never been even brought up on any charges. I am not saying that there are times where this might not be the case, but I tend to think that if they have committed crimes in the past that would be a felony charge then they are more likely to do it again. More so than a person who has not altogether.


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## MGM357 (Feb 4, 2010)

JTM said:


> doesn't the felony have to be of "moral terpitude?"



Define moral terpitude.


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## js4253 (Feb 4, 2010)

My opinion.  Most people have committed crimes in their youth.  Some worse than others.  The Lodge should review the crimes committed and decide if they think the person has matured and changed his ways.  I know I have had a few too many drinks in the past that, had I been stopped by police would have earned me a DWI.  I seldom drink now and am glad to be a Mason.

If a man who has the honor to call himself a  Mason commits a felony he has let the fraternity down.


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## HKTidwell (Feb 4, 2010)

My opinion for what it is worth, this depends upon the crime and the time of the crime.  If this is something that recently happened then I would be against allowing the petitioner in.  If this is a heinous, violent, sexual.. crime I would be against it.  There are some crimes that I would possibly overlook, depending upon all factors.

Also we must remember that our definition of crimes has changed over time.  For example, DWI's are a felony now after X time, at one point this was not the case.  So lets say X person had DWI's 20 years ago and now determines, after he has changed, to petition he would not be lying.  If this same situation plays out 20 years from now you would have to say yes.  So has society changed who is worthy and who is not?


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## MGM357 (Feb 4, 2010)

Maybe our definition of crimes have changed to some over time. The definition of Masonry hasn't changed for me for almost 20 years. Masonry should never be copromised. The laws and by laws, rituals, and obligations were created to preserve Masonry beyond many lifetimes. I feel that we (Masons) should be obligated to preserve Masonry without any compromise. If and when my son decides to become a Mason, I want it to be the same exact experience I had. I hope that the laws of Masonry aren't changed just for convenience and we might feel bad if we have to say no. 

By no means am I a saint of any kind. Fortunately I have walked the line and never committed a felony. Masonry is one of the great rewards for that, and I am proud of it. We are to make GOOD men better.


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## Bill Lins (Feb 4, 2010)

JTM said:


> doesn't the felony have to be of "moral terpitude?"


 
As I read our petition, it says "a felony _or misdemeanor involving moral turpitude_". This would seem to exclude such misdemeanors as speeding or illegal parking.

As to the definition of "moral turpitude", the following was found on Wikipedia:

_Moral turpitude is a legal concept in the United States that refers to "conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty or good morals."

The concept of moral turpitude escapes precise definition but has been described as an "act of baseness, vileness or depravity in the private and social duties which a man owes to his fellowmen, or to society in general, contrary to the accepted and customary rule of right and duty between man and man." 

Until recent times, a man engaged in homosexual behavior was considered to be engaging in "criminal behavior involving moral turpitude"._

HTH


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## CarlGlas (Feb 5, 2010)

*Art. 393. Qualifications.* 

A candidate for the degrees of Masonry must be free-born, sound in mind, of *good moral character*, a full eighteen years of age on or before the day his petition is received by the Lodge, and without maim or defect which will render him incapable of earning his own living or receiving and imparting, Masonically, all that is required by the ritual of the several degrees: provided that as to physical maims and defects Articles 27 and 401 of these Laws shall be applicable. 

After the foregoing requirements have been strictly met, the question of the candidateâ€™s mental, moral, and such physical qualifications as do not come within the restrictions of Art. 401 is one to be decided within the sound discretion of the members of the Lodge petitioned.

*Art. 398. (435). Questions Answered by Candidate. *

Before a candidate can be initiated he must answer, in writing, each of the following questions:

1. Do you promise, upon your honor, to strictly adhere to and be governed by the Constitution and Laws of The Grand Lodge of Texas and the by-laws of this Lodge?

2. Do you sincerely declare, upon your honor, that, unbiased by friends and uninfluenced by mercenary motives, you freely and voluntarily offer yourself as a candidate for the Mysteries of Masonry?

3. Do you seriously declare, upon your honor, that you are prompted to solicit the privileges of Masonry by a favorable opinion conceived of the institution, a desire for knowledge, and a sincere desire to be of greater service to your fellow men?

4. Do you seriously declare, upon your honor, that you will cheerfully conform to all the ancient established usages and customs of Masonry?

5. Do you seriously declare, upon your honor, that you firmly believe in the existence of God, the immortality of the 395-398 Title IV â€“ Chapter 1
(Revised 1995) 168 soul, and in the divine authenticity of the Holy Scriptures?

6. Do you seriously declare, upon your honor, that you have never before petitioned any Lodge of Masons for the degrees or any of them?

*Art. 403. (440). Petition for Degrees: Requisites. 
*
A candidate for the degrees must file with the Secretary of the Lodge a petition in writing, which must be presented to the Lodge at a stated meeting only. 
The petition must state the name of the petitioner in full; his age; date and place of birth; his domicile during the preceding twelve months; and shall contain all other matters required by law and Form No. 26. Said petition shall be signed by the petitioner in person and shall be recommended and the application personally signed by not less than two members of the Lodge.

*Form No. 26 - Question No. 16*

Have you ever been charged with a felony or a misdemeanor involving moral turpitude? Yes__ or No__. If so, when and where? 
Give details_________________ .


   Legal Dictionary

*Moral turpitude*
*1* *:* an act or behavior that gravely violates the sentiment or accepted standard of the community
*2* *:* a quality of dishonesty or other immorality that is determined by a court to be present in the commission of a criminal offense 

_NOTE: Whether a criminal offense involves moral turpitude is an important determination in deportation, disbarment, and other disciplinary hearings. Past crimes involving moral turpitude usually may also be introduced as evidence to impeach testimony. Theft, perjury, vice crimes, bigamy, and rape have generally been found to involve moral turpitude, while liquor law violations and disorderly conduct generally have not._ 



http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=moral+turpitude&ia=mwlaw


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## JTM (Feb 5, 2010)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> As I read our petition, it says "a felony _or misdemeanor involving moral turpitude_". This would seem to exclude such misdemeanors as speeding or illegal parking.
> 
> As to the definition of "moral turpitude", the following was found on Wikipedia:
> 
> ...


 
that's slightly ambiguous.  i feel like if someone is doing pot and gets a felony, it's not something that should kick him out of masonry.  

obligatory edit: i don't do pot, nor do i endorse it... but i don't think it's a moral issue.

edit2: also, are you saying that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed into lodge?  aka, cannot be "good men" because they are gay?


/canofworms


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## CarlGlas (Feb 5, 2010)

I agree that it is ambiguous and perhaps it is left up to the interpretation of the individual lodges because the petitioner is only asked if he has been charged with a felony or a misdemeanor involving moral turpitude. It doesn't ask if he had been convicted.  

I'm thinking that if having a felony charge or conviction was a automatic disqualification, the petition would state so. (It sure goes into details about ones physical defects.) However, it doesn't, but asks the petitioner for details. Maybe it is left to the discretion of the investigative committee who reports its findings to the members of the lodge who then make the final decision. 

A felony conviction is something that stays with a person forever unless it is overturned by a court of law, removed by an executive order of a state governor, or if a federal felony, the President of the United States.

I do believe that people make mistakes and once they have paid for their mistake and have stayed out of trouble for 5, 10, 15, or 20 years, their debt to society should be marked PAID and they should be released from their title of convicted felon. 

If a man is seeking Light, then he must be a good man and we all know that Masonry makes a good man better.


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## ndfire83 (Feb 5, 2010)

CarlGlas said:


> [SIZE=3 I'm thinking that if having a felony charge or conviction was a automatic disqualification, the petition would state so.
> 
> [/SIZE]



Our petitions in ND ask if you beleive in a Supreme Being/Deity. If you answer NO that is an automatin disqualifcation. it dosen't say that if you put no you can't become a member but we know that is the case. So, why would the petition have to say if you answer a question this way you can't be a member. If it said that they would say what they had to.


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## TexMass (Feb 5, 2010)

ndfire83 said:


> I have asked a few people in my home Lodge and no one has an answer on if that is a "deal breaker". I have heard that there might be a person that is going to petition our Lodge and has been charged with a felony. Does that mean we can't let him in? Like I said earlier in ND I can't get a satisfying answer.


 
I'm confused.  Your original post says "charged" with a felony.  That's not the same as convicted.  If they are only charged then they should wait until their legal issues have run their course.


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## Bill Lins (Feb 6, 2010)

JTM said:


> i feel like if someone is doing pot and gets a felony, it's not something that should kick him out of masonry.


 
Simply "doing pot" is not a felony. One must possess enough dope to reasonably be considered a "dealer" before reaching felony status.


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## Bill Lins (Feb 6, 2010)

JTM said:


> are you saying that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed into lodge?  aka, cannot be "good men" because they are gay?


 
As I stated before, the following is a quote from Wikipedia:

_"Until recent times, a man engaged in homosexual behavior was considered to be engaging in 'criminal behavior involving moral turpitude'"_


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## ndfire83 (Feb 6, 2010)

TexMass said:


> I'm confused.  Your original post says "charged" with a felony.  That's not the same as convicted.  If they are only charged then they should wait until their legal issues have run their course.


 
The guy that might petition our Lodge has been convicted and has served his time, as far as I know. I don't know what the crime was, I am under the impression it has to do with drugs. I was just looking to see if anyone else has run into an issue like this and was looking to see what other Brother's though about it. I need to look into the code for ND. The other problem I run into is the Master of our Lodge has told me that ifthis guy petitions he will be accepted, and if I vote it down, they will vote again, when I am unable to come to the meeting. But that could be an altogether new topic.


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## ndfire83 (Feb 6, 2010)

One other thing that was brought up in our Lodge, was that we are not looking at who the man was in the past, we are to look to the future. I think that is right but if they have a history of being in trouble who is to say they will not do it again? I know people can change, but we are supposed to make GOOD men Better. NOT bad men good. That is not to say that all people who have broken the law are bad, but in the case of a felony I am unsure where they would fall in?


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## Dragon (Feb 6, 2010)

I would suggest that you find out MORE information before you automatically ballot against this man. Find out what the situation was, it could have been a stupid mistake that was made 10, 15, or even 20 years ago. Find out what kind of man he is NOW, if you do not know all of the circumstances behind the charge and conviction, it is possible you are jumping to conclusions with regard to the mans character as he lives NOW.


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## Traveling Man (Feb 6, 2010)

Here is a description of moral turpitude as defined by the U.S. Department of State…
 United States Department of State courtesy of the Plano Masonic Lodge 

I find it interesting that the above is an older version and includes moral turpitude clauses (and explanations) while the an intermediate version includes “job descriptions” and the newest version only includes drug/terrorist clauses (deleting any association with the moral turpitude,communist parties etc.)  In the future (after the legalisation of drugs and we all live in utopia) we wont need any of these regulations, correct?


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## MGM357 (Feb 6, 2010)

JTM said:


> that's slightly ambiguous.  i feel like if someone is doing pot and gets a felony, it's not something that should kick him out of masonry.



I know the argument is smoking pot isn't any worse than drinking, maybe so, but it is an ILLEGAL drug. What will it be like when the next generation decide? Do think maybe the weekend crack smoker will be alowed in?  The West gate is heavily guarded for a reason. We are to only allow the ones that duly and truly prepare, worthy and well qualified. Masonry is only as good as the men that are in it. Sometimes I wonder if we make it easier for a man to get in, than for a brother who has been away for a while, to come back in.


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## CarlGlas (Feb 7, 2010)

Art. 397 of the Laws of The Grand Lodge of Texas specifically states that a candidate must have a firm belief in the existence of God, and Art. 398 states that before a candidate can be initiated he must state in writing that he seriously declares, upon his honor, that he firmly believes in the existence of God.

In my opinion that pretty much says that if you don't believe in God, you can't be initiated and if you aren't initiated, you can't be a Mason.

I think it would be nice if the Grand Lodge would make a ruling on the subject of felony charges and be clear about it. Being charged is one thing, being convicted is another.




ndfire83 said:


> Our petitions in ND ask if you beleive in a Supreme Being/Deity. If you answer NO that is an automatin disqualifcation. it dosen't say that if you put no you can't become a member but we know that is the case. So, why would the petition have to say if you answer a question this way you can't be a member. If it said that they would say what they had to.


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## CarlGlas (Feb 7, 2010)

Even though a Supreme Court decision stated Homosexual Conduct could not be made illegal based on the US Constitution, in Texas, Homosexual conduct is still listed in the Penal Code as a criminal offense.  And, assuming that one accepts the Bible to be the Word of God, and as such the final authority on issues it discusses,   Homosexual conduct is "an abomination" to the  Lord!  Together with "bestiality" it was one of the sins that justified God in giving the land of Canaan to the Israelites, for the previous occupants were guilty of such sins.

Art. 393. Qualifications. 
A candidate for the degrees of Masonry must be free-born, sound in mind, of good moral character.


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## ndfire83 (Feb 7, 2010)

Dragon said:


> I would suggest that you find out MORE information before you automatically ballot against this man. Find out what the situation was, it could have been a stupid mistake that was made 10, 15, or even 20 years ago. Find out what kind of man he is NOW, if you do not know all of the circumstances behind the charge and conviction, it is possible you are jumping to conclusions with regard to the mans character as he lives NOW.


 
That is why we have investigation committees. Is to make sure of these things. My biggest worry is if there are rules against it. I tend to agree with MGM357, if we start getting to relaxed with membership now, what will it be like in the future? Also, it is not my place to judge this man. But, if he has a long criminal history,than I feel like I have good reason to be stand-offish about him. I am a big believe that this IS the greatest Fraternity know to man and I don't what, because of me not looking deep enough into a subject, that I jeopardize that. Some might think that it is just one man, but one man can to great or terrible things. I just want to make sure I am as educated as I can be to make a good informed decision about a potential candidate.


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