# Blue Degrees vs. Red Degrees



## Bro_Vick (Sep 7, 2011)

I don't know if there are any brothers from Louisiana on here, but I have a question.  Some might know that the A&ASR has it's own 1 - 3 degrees of Freemasonry which is commonly referred to as "Red Degrees", in which the EA, FC and MM are conferred by the A&ASR vice the Grand Lodge AF&AM or F&AM.  This was common in both South Carolina and Louisiana in the 1800s, and were called "Red Lodges".  They were later chartered over to the Grand Lodge and stopped performing the Red Degrees and conformed to the AF&AM "Blue Degrees".

It is my understanding that once a year the A&ASR in Louisiana is given special dispensation to preform the ritual of the first three degrees of the A&ASR, for all Master Masons to see.

Does anyone know if this is still happening, before my marathon of deployments there was notice sent out ~2007, but haven't heard anything since, and I would like to make the pilgrimage to see it, and want to plan accordingly with my job.

Any info would be much appreciated.

-Bro Vick


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## JJones (Sep 7, 2011)

I was under the impression that 'red lodges' and therefore 'red degrees' were Yorkrite?

I'd be interested in hearing more about this myself.


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## Brent Heilman (Sep 7, 2011)

I would be interested also. I would love to make the trip if at all possible. I think I will be doing some research to see what I can find.


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## Benton (Sep 7, 2011)

JJones said:


> I was under the impression that 'red lodges' and therefore 'red degrees' were Yorkrite?



Red lodges are Scottish Rite in affiliation. The basic three degrees that the vast majority of American Masons know in their blue lodge are the 'York Rite' version of the degrees.


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## Huw (Sep 7, 2011)

Hi Bro Vick.

The A&ASR version of the Craft Degrees is standard practice in one District of GLoLA.  Er ... 16th district (New Orleans, Jefferson, Kenner, Lacombe) if I recall correctly.  The rest of GLoLA uses a Webb-form ritual pretty similar to other US GLs, so far as I know.

Louisiana appears to be the only place in the world where this form of the ritual is worked in English, although it's quite common practice in French-speaking countries and almost universal practice in Spanish-speaking countries.  Here in UGLE, interestingly, it's explicitly forbidden even as a demonstration.

T & F,

Huw


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## Huw (Sep 7, 2011)

Hi John.



Benton said:


> Red lodges are Scottish Rite in affiliation. The basic three degrees that the vast majority of American Masons know in their blue lodge are the 'York Rite' version of the degrees.



Mmmm, well, sort of, but that's a bit of a retro-fitting. Bear in mind that the Craft rituals are older than the additional Rites, and also that the US-style division of additional Degrees into "York" and "Scottish" Rites is not quite the same arrangement as used in a lot of other countries.

It'd be more historically-accurate to say that the Craft Degrees you usually use are British-type and that your York Rite additional Degrees are also (mostly) British-type, whilst the A&ASR Craft Degrees are French-type and that your Scottish Rite additional Degrees are also (mostly) French-type. But of course that's a pretty cumbersome way of putting it, and even so it still isn't totally accurate.

 Thus I'll agree that way you put it is a reasonable shorthand description, although it's misleading if taken too literally.

T & F,

Huw


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## Bro_Vick (Sep 7, 2011)

Huw said:


> The A&ASR version of the Craft Degrees is standard practice in one District of GLoLA. Er ... 16th district (New Orleans, Jefferson, Kenner, Lacombe) if I recall correctly.



Yeah, after some research I believe that Germania Lodge No 46 is one of these lodges (http://www.germania46.org/), I tried to go to the 16th district website and could not find any additional information.  It is interesting that it is forbidden in UGLE, I am afraid to ask if Texas has a similar restriction. 

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## choppersteve03 (Sep 7, 2011)

That would be cool to be the holder of red and blue degrees. How would one get the reds?


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## JJones (Sep 7, 2011)

I'd just enjoy seeing some degrees like this at some point.


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## Brent Heilman (Sep 7, 2011)

Just to see these degrees would be something special. I understand the EA is particularly impressive. May have to make a trip down there sometime soon.


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## Benton (Sep 7, 2011)

Huw said:


> Mmmm, well, sort of, but that's a bit of a retro-fitting. Bear in mind that the Craft rituals are older than the additional Rites, and also that the US-style division of additional Degrees into "York" and "Scottish" Rites is not quite the same arrangement as used in a lot of other countries.



I know it's not entirely accurate. That's why I put 'York Rite' in quotes, because it's not really a true statement. A certain connotation was implied, but I suppose not communicated well online.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Sep 7, 2011)

Bro_Vick said:


> I don't know if there are any brothers from Louisiana on here, but I have a question.  Some might know that the A&ASR has it's own 1 - 3 degrees of Freemasonry which is commonly referred to as "Red Degrees", in which the EA, FC and MM are conferred by the A&ASR vice the Grand Lodge AF&AM or F&AM.  This was common in both South Carolina and Louisiana in the 1800s, and were called "Red Lodges".  They were later chartered over to the Grand Lodge and stopped performing the Red Degrees and conformed to the AF&AM "Blue Degrees".
> 
> It is my understanding that once a year the A&ASR in Louisiana is given special dispensation to preform the ritual of the first three degrees of the A&ASR, for all Master Masons to see.
> 
> ...



Yes there is a special dispensation for a couple of Lodges within the GLoLA to practice the "Red Lodge" Scottish Rite ritualistic EA, FC, & MM degrees. There is only one degree "team" composed of members from the 16th District.



Bro_Vick said:


> Yeah, after some research I believe that Germania Lodge No 46 is one of these lodges (http://www.germania46.org/), I tried to go to the 16th district website and could not find any additional information.  It is interesting that it is forbidden in UGLE, I am afraid to ask if Texas has a similar restriction.
> 
> S&F,
> -Bro Vick



The GLoTX does not conduct any of the Red Lodge degrees.



choppersteve03 said:


> That would be cool to be the holder of red and blue degrees. How would one get the reds?



One obtains the Red version of the degrees in the same manner as you would any other degree, petition for the degree. I will say however, that the observation of the Red Lodge ritualistic degrees (EA, FC, or MM) is open to any active Master Mason of any recognized jurisdiction of the GLoLA.

The O.K. Allen Lodge that I belong to operates under the Red ritual.


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## Bro_Vick (Sep 8, 2011)

Bro. Stewart said:


> The GLoTX does not conduct any of the Red Lodge degrees.



I thought I was pretty clear that they don't, the lodge I mentioned is in LA, not TX.

-Bro Vick


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## Bro.BruceBenjamin (Sep 8, 2011)

To bad I will not be able to view these degrees or the cave degrees either.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Sep 8, 2011)

Bro_Vick said:


> I thought I was pretty clear that they don't, the lodge I mentioned is in LA, not TX.
> 
> -Bro Vick



Correct. I was not trying to dispute that fact.

...It is not that far to travel in order to see theses degrees for yourself either. The GLoLA usually tries to host these degrees in a central location, the last few that I am aware of were in Shreveport, LA.


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## RedTemplar (Sep 8, 2011)

To witness the Red Degrees is on my bucket list.  Somebody please post these degrees well in advance as to when they are to be conferred. I would love to bring a caravan with me.


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## Brent Heilman (Sep 8, 2011)

I second the caravan idea. Hopefully will make it down there soon if my schedule will allow it.


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## Nate Riley (Sep 8, 2011)

For more info: 

http://ladistrict16.org/index.htm

http://www.masonsoftexas.com/showth....-in-the-Symbolic-Degrees&highlight=louisiana

http://www.masonsoftexas.com/showth...-in-Louisiana-Freemasonry&highlight=louisiana

http://www.masonsoftexas.com/showth...ee-(Scottish-Rite-Ritual)&highlight=louisiana


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## Parafaxitas (Oct 5, 2011)

Referring to the Scottish Rite Craft degrees as "red degrees" is a relatively new invention. Until recently, they were simply known as the craft degrees. The higher degrees of french and german masonry were often considered red degrees, in contrast the blue degrees of craft masonry. As huw pointed out, the craft degrees of the scottish rite are french in origin, but again, the red degrees usually refer to "High Grade Masonry." So it would be more appropriate to call the Scottish Rite degrees 4-33 "red" degrees and the EA-MM craft degrees.

Another example of "red" lodges appear in New York, where Lodge Garibaldi performs the craft degrees of the Rite of Memphis, which are often mistaken as Scottish Rite Craft degrees.


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## Ceasare (Jan 23, 2012)

Wow.  How informative...


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## Traveling Man (Mar 4, 2012)

Bro_Vick said:


> Yeah, after some research I believe that Germania Lodge No 46 is one of these lodges (Germania Lodge No. 46, F&AM), I tried to go to the 16th district website and could not find any additional information.  It is interesting that it is forbidden in UGLE, I am afraid to ask if Texas has a similar restriction.


 
I don't know if your search has been fulfilled, but you might want to contact Bro. Michael R. Poll of Cornerstone Publishers Cornerstone Book Publishers - Masonic Books, Esoteric Books, Pulp Fiction He is a Past Master of one of these lodges and has written about their history extensively, mind you in one of those Texas verboten publication organizations. :wink:


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## Mac (Mar 4, 2012)

I agree with the brother above.  I have Bro Poll's printing of the Bon Seigneur Rituals, and they're quite interesting to read through


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## Ashton Lawson (Mar 4, 2012)

Are those available digitally?


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## Traveling Man (Mar 4, 2012)

Some are check them out under his name at Amazon.com


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## starmega5 (Jul 16, 2012)

I'm a NJ Freemason but am now living in Puerto Rico, most of the lodges here work the "Red Degrees"... A bit different than what we are used to but very entertaining to watch... NY has some that work them as well


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## Rotta (Apr 6, 2013)

I know that by the masonic law an constitution 1-3 degree are operated by GL or GO.All the other superior degree are operated by the perfection rites like as Scotish,York,Memphis&Misraim,Emulation and others.

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## jwhoff (Apr 6, 2013)

starmega5 said:


> I'm a NJ Freemason but am now living in Puerto Rico, most of the lodges here work the "Red Degrees"... A bit different than what we are used to but very entertaining to watch... NY has some that work them as well



Yes.  I was almost sure New York had a few lodges working in these degrees.  

Thanks brother for that verification.


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## jwhoff (Apr 6, 2013)

RedTemplar said:


> To witness the Red Degrees is on my bucket list.  Somebody please post these degrees well in advance as to when they are to be conferred. I would love to bring a caravan with me.



Brother RedTemplar.  Stay in touch on this one.  I just took on a new job and may not have much vacation for a year or so.  But this would be a great time to grab Wild Bill Lins and make a run to Louisiana so the three of us could get together and not waste our precious time!


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## Cblack (Apr 6, 2013)

you guys get to have all the fun...lol

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## jwhoff (Apr 6, 2013)

Of course.  

Brother Cblack, you've got to be old enough to have kicked the bucket over a few times before you really start paying attention to the list therein.

How do I explain ... it's sort of an "old fart" revelation that sort of seeps in "with time."

It' like ... it's like learning to enjoy oatmeal.  

:39:


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## jwhoff (Apr 6, 2013)

Brent Heilman said:


> I second the caravan idea. Hopefully will make it down there soon if my schedule will allow it.



You're in.  

And, if you play your GPS right, 

you don't even have to traverse Baja Oklahoma!

:001_rolleyes:


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## Cblack (Apr 6, 2013)

lol..I see your point

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## athelstane839 (May 29, 2013)

New York is the melting pot of Masonic degrees,rites and orders. We have everything a brother seeks to evolve himself in aspect for the Scots order. 
We have co-masonry, Memphis mizraim,  Mercia Shriner the very first shrine group, grotto masons, York rite, Scottish rite, royal order of jesters, royal order of Scotland, allied Masonic degrees, cbsc and list goes on. 
There is not such thing as blue lodge brothers it's called a master mason lodge and there no such thing as a red lodge whatever that maybe their is a royal arch mason chapter. New York grand lodge of Freemason works with the first three degrees e.a, f.c, m.m after you have completed those degrees and have been a m.m in good standing for a period of 1 yr you may be allowed to petition to other rites, orders or observances that are acknowledged by the Grand Lodge.  


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## Roy Vance (Jun 2, 2013)

jwhoff said:


> It' like ... it's like learning to enjoy oatmeal.
> 
> :39:



There is nothing wrong with oatmeal....that a little honey won't cure. That's what you learn when you get older. LOL!


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## denoel (Jun 2, 2013)

Hello I'm new to the forum I would just like to say hello to everyone. My name is calvin I hail from Ionic #112 in Philadelphia PHA


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## jaanthony (Jun 3, 2013)

Welcome. 

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## jwhoff (Jun 4, 2013)

roy.vance said:


> There is nothing wrong with oatmeal....that a little honey won't cure. That's what you learn when you get older. LOL!




I know :39:


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## rhitland (Jun 28, 2013)

not sure if I am speaking out of turn but I believe for a Texas Mason "Red Lodges" are considered clandestine and are forbidden.  Maybe it was an edict that has expired but I believe Gene Carnes's year they were outlawed.  Again I am not sure of this but I would ask a well informed brother who would know the naswer and not just tell you no.


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## rhitland (Jun 28, 2013)

On another note I obtained a copy long ago of the ritual for LA "Red Lodges" on paper and just reading it blew my mind so i would be very happy if I could go to one.


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## Bill Lins (Jun 28, 2013)

rhitland said:


> not sure if I am speaking out of turn but I believe for a Texas Mason "Red Lodges" are considered clandestine and are forbidden.  Maybe it was an edict that has expired but I believe Gene Carnes's year they were outlawed.  Again I am not sure of this but I would ask a well informed brother who would know the naswer and not just tell you no.


Actually, the edict was issued by M:.W:. O'Neill during his year and outlaws the "red Lodge" _ritual_ from being worked in GLoTX Lodges. It is still in effect.
The Louisiana "red Lodges" are shown as regular in the List of Lodges Masonic and, AFAIK, it is OK to go visit & sit in them.


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## Bill Lins (Jun 28, 2013)

athelstane839 said:


> There is not such thing as blue lodge brothers it's called a master mason lodge and there no such thing as a red lodge whatever that maybe their is a royal arch mason chapter.


 
Perhaps not in your state but "blue Lodge" is commonly used in the Southern states and refers to a constituent Lodge of a recognized Grand Lodge, which works a York Rite-based ritual in the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd Degrees, NOT just the MM Degree. "Red Lodge" refers to a Lodge which works a Scottish Rite-based ritual in the first 3 Degrees- found normally in Louisiana and is NOT clandestine.



athelstane839 said:


> New York grand lodge of Freemason works with the first three degrees e.a, f.c, m.m after you have completed those degrees and have been a m.m in good standing for a period of 1 yr you may be allowed to petition to other rites, orders or observances that are acknowledged by the Grand Lodge.



Again, there's a difference. The Grand Lodge of Texas only requires that the newly-raised MM demonstrate his proficiency in the work (he has up to 90 days to learn & demonstrate his proficiency) before joining an appendant body.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Jun 28, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Actually, the edict was issued by M:.W:. O'Neill during his year and outlaws the "red Lodge" _ritual_ from being worked in GLoTX Lodges. It is still in effect.
> The Louisiana "red Lodges" are shown as regular in the List of Lodges Masonic and, AFAIK, it is OK to go visit & sit in them.



And on that note...

After speaking with Bro. Bryan last night at installation, apparently O.K. Allen Lodge #33 F. & A.M. (GLoLA) has obtained approval to operate in the Red Lodge format. Good to know that my "plural" Lodge is one of the fun ones!!


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## andrew626 (Jun 29, 2013)

What is the difference between Blue and Red lodges? I mostly see Blue, here in the greater los angeles area.

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## Roy Vance (Jun 29, 2013)

jwhoff said:


> You're in.
> 
> And, if you play your GPS right,
> 
> ...


 
Baja Oklahoma? Don't ever, ever let my Aunt hear you say that. She will never let me live it down. She lives in Oklahoma City.


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## Bill Lins (Jun 29, 2013)

andrew626 said:


> What is the difference between Blue and Red lodges? I mostly see Blue, here in the greater los angeles area.


From post #41: ""blue Lodge" is commonly used in the Southern states and refers to a constituent Lodge of a recognized Grand Lodge, which works a York Rite-based ritual in the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd Degrees. "Red Lodge" refers to a Lodge which works a Scottish Rite-based ritual in the first 3 Degrees- found normally in Louisiana."


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## dfreybur (Jun 30, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Actually, the edict was issued by M:.W:. O'Neill during his year and outlaws the "red Lodge" _ritual_ from being worked in GLoTX Lodges. It is still in effect.



To my knowledge all US lodges have standard work that is mandated by all members lodges with varying degrees of strictness.  There's an Oklahoma degree team that travels the country doing exhibition degrees.  It's common for the GM of California or Illinois to grant dispensation for them to confer their third on one of our candidates.  And even more common for GMs to grant dispensation for them to exhibit their degree rather than conferring it.

So a GM "can" grant a dispensation for some other ritual to be conferred on a live candidate in Texas.  Whether any one GM "would" grant such a dispensation is a different matter.  It depends on whether that particular GM, local tradition, knowledge of other jurisdictions ...


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## Bill Lins (Jun 30, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> So a GM "can" grant a dispensation for some other ritual to be conferred on a live candidate in Texas.


*Art. 127. Ritual.* 
No ritual other than that promulgated by this Grand Lodge shall be taught or used in this Jurisdiction provided however, by special dispensation of the Grand Master, a degree team from another Grand Jurisdiction in fraternal relations with this Grand Lodge may confer a degree _on one of their own candidates_  (italics mine) using ritual as approved in the degree team’s home jurisdiction, provided said ritual is in English.


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