# Healing?



## tomasball

I've been reading here some discussions of the MWPHGLoT "healing" men who were initiated in bogus lodges.  It's a bit foreign to me, because in the GLoT we don't have any such procedure...a member of a clandestine lodge can only join us by quitting the clandestine body and starting over in one of our lodges as if the clandestine initiation had never happened.

What are the rules governing healing with the MWPHGLoT?  Is there a restriction on which bodies a member can be "healed" from?


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## bupton52

tomasball said:


> I've been reading here some discussions of the MWPHGLoT "healing" men who were initiated in bogus lodges.  It's a bit foreign to me, because in the GLoT we don't have any such procedure...a member of a clandestine lodge can only join us by quitting the clandestine body and starting over in one of our lodges as if the clandestine initiation had never happened.
> 
> What are the rules governing healing with the MWPHGLoT?  Is there a restriction on which bodies a member can be "healed" from?



I was healed from another jurisdiction. There are guidelines outlined in the MWPHGLoTX constitution if someone decided to be healed and I would have to assume that it's also the discretion of the WM and bretheren in that particular lodge. The healee has to show suitable proficiency and documentation that he was raised in another jurisdiction. I am thankful for the opportunity to have been healed, but I do see a flaw in the logic.


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## dfreybur

bupton52 said:


> The healee has to show suitable proficiency and documentation that he was raised in another jurisdiction.



Interesting.  I take it clandestine GLs base their ritual on one of the expose books we can find in bookstores.  As such their proficiencies would be very close to our own.  Having seen proficiencies done in multiple jurisdictions as I've traveled I know there's a lot of variation in them.  It could be shorter to complete the proficiencies than to go through both the degrees and the proficiencies.  This assumes that the candidate is the one who was duped not one of the GL officers doing the duping.

Essentially earning the lineage to the founding of the Grand Lodge of England in 1717 having already been through a copy of the degrees.  The initiatory experience of the degree would be considered an experience by the individual not dependent on those conferring the degree.  From a philosophical perspective I get it.

From a pragmatic perspective it's so much less complex to do the degrees over again, though.


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## phamason

Bro bupton,I don't feel u have to explain or defend what we at the MWPHGLOT do when it comes to our healing process!!

Prince Hall or not At All


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## tomasball

I hope I didn't say anything to suggest that there was any need to defend it, but I can't see why anyone shouldn't be happy to explain it.  I'm interested in understanding the practices of the PH Grand Lodge, since we mutually recognize each other.  Was my question inappropriate?

Tom Ball
PM Llano Grande 1173
33* KYCH OPC


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## bupton52

phamason said:


> Bro bupton,I don't feel u have to explain or defend what we at the MWPHGLOT do when it comes to our healing process!!
> 
> Prince Hall or not At All



It's not about defending what the GL does, just sharing what is available. GL of State GLs don't offer healing. It's just a matter of informing brothers on what's out there. They may be able to explain that to someone who can benefit from it. It is my hope that one day visitation will be added to the already in place recognition that our two GLs share and they will have the opportunity to see it firsthand. 


Freemason Connect Mobile


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## BroBook

As someone who was recently healed in Florida "PHA", I was a Lil confused at first, I personally was looking forward to having to retake the degrees, but after Contemplation, I realize there is an understood difference between a group that broke off and a group that sprang up,I hope my meaning is clear!!! Wwea



Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## BroBook

bupton52 said:


> It's not about defending what the GL does, just sharing what is available. GL of State GLs don't offer healing. It's just a matter of informing brothers on what's out there. They may be able to explain that to someone who can benefit from it. It is my hope that one day visitation will be added to the already in place recognition that our two GLs share and they will have the opportunity to see it firsthand.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile


Grand lodge of state don't "I " think offer healing because they feel as if their Masonry is the Masonry, in my state I was only re- obligated because of our history , but I am sure that real brother that came though a bogus pretending  to be a masonic body would have to be I,P&R to ensure that he understood that he was not raised!


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## bupton52

BroBook said:


> Grand lodge of state don't "I " think offer healing because they feel as if their Masonry is the Masonry, in my state I was only re- obligated because of our history , but I am sure that real brother that came though a bogus pretending  to be a masonic body would have to be I,P&R to ensure that he understood that he was not raised!
> 
> 
> Bro Book
> M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
> Excelsior # 43
> At pensacola



They don't offer healing because if you are not IPR'd in a legitimate lodge, technically you are not a mason.


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## BroBook

bupton52 said:


> They don't offer healing because if you are not IPR'd in a legitimate lodge, technically you are not a mason.


That was my point in my state what we "Africans " call 4 letter (AF&AM ) broke off from 3 letter ( F&AM) over an internal matter. By the former I do not mean "mainstream" 



Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## laruewhite53

Who is this person named BoBo that I have been hearing about who started bogus masonry in California?


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## bupton52

laruewhite53 said:


> Who is this person named BoBo that I have been hearing about who started bogus masonry in California?



Just another person who decided that starting a GL would be a good idea. Other than that, nothing noteworthy.


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## Blaster

I have conducted healings for those who knew all their materials. What i did was compared the ritual they used to ours, and if it was acceptable, I based their proficiency on that ritual. I've also encountered people who weren't proficient, so I had them start over. I'd prefer that everyone start over, but I think it's a tactic to encourage clandestine masons to become recognized by making it a little easier for them IF they know their material. If they're regular, then there's usually no material difference in what they're doing other than not having a legitimate charter.


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## laruewhite53

I am now aPH MASON


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## dfreybur

laruewhite53 said:


> I am now aPH MASON



Welcome to the PHamily, once step brother now fully adopted brother.


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## bupton52

laruewhite53 said:


> I am now aPH MASON



Good to see you made that change. What GL did you come from?


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## Jamarr/G\

Prince Hall All The Way brother! 
3.5.7


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## mrpierce17

laruewhite53 said:


> I am now aPH MASON


Good move brother Prince Hall or not at all GOD bless Prince Hall masonry !!!


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## Dontrell Stroman

tomasball said:


> I've been reading here some discussions of the MWPHGLoT "healing" men who were initiated in bogus lodges.  It's a bit foreign to me, because in the GLoT we don't have any such procedure...a member of a clandestine lodge can only join us by quitting the clandestine body and starting over in one of our lodges as if the clandestine initiation had never happened.
> 
> What are the rules governing healing with the MWPHGLoT?  Is there a restriction on which bodies a member can be "healed" from?


I was told my multiple GL brothers that if you were ever made a clandestine mason that you could not join a GL masons. A guy actually told me that if a white man had ever been a Prince Hall mason that he could never be a member of "mainstream" masonry. And vise versa a black man who is Prince Hall could never join. I don't know how true that is though.


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## acjohnson53

LMAO, SO UNTRUE BRUH, Aint what they call racial profiling? At our Lodge we just did a Masonic Healing where the Brother was African American coming from a four letter to a three letter Lodge, I was raised with several Brothers that were Caucasion that were on my cable tow...


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## acjohnson53

Brothers the best knowledge a Brother can receive is not listening to what somebody tell you, but to search for the facts and then present it. That how skuttle but get started.


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## Dontrell Stroman

acjohnson53 said:


> LMAO, SO UNTRUE BRUH, Aint what they call racial profiling? At our Lodge we just did a Masonic Healing where the Brother was African American coming from a four letter to a three letter Lodge, I was raised with several Brothers that were Caucasion that were on my cable tow...


Hold on brother, I'm not talking about a clandestine 4 letter mason coming over to Prince Hall masonry, I'm talking about a Prince Hall mason going to mainstream wether they be black or white.


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## Bloke

Travelling Man91 said:


> I was told my multiple GL brothers that if you were ever made a clandestine mason that you could not join a GL masons. A guy actually told me that if a white man had ever been a Prince Hall mason that he could never be a member of "mainstream" masonry. And vise versa a black man who is Prince Hall could never join. I don't know how true that is though.



Total BS. We just re-initiate "clandestine" masons, but they would need to first resign from their old GL if not in amity. I know several who have been through that (from Lebanon).


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## Glen Cook

Travelling Man91 said:


> I was told my multiple GL brothers that if you were ever made a clandestine mason that you could not join a GL masons. A guy actually told me that if a white man had ever been a Prince Hall mason that he could never be a member of "mainstream" masonry. And vise versa a black man who is Prince Hall could never join. I don't know how true that is though.



Well, I have seen a number of Masons who came from a clandestine background. Now, are there individual lodges who wouldn't accept such a candidate? Probably. I'm unaware of any GL which has this rule. I suspect none of those who gave you this have been a GM.


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## Dontrell Stroman

I'm starting to learn that maybe the area of that my lodge is in "East Tennessee" is still somewhat behind in times on these issues and maybe I ought to take this into consideration.


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## dfreybur

Travelling Man91 said:


> I was told my multiple GL brothers that if you were ever made a clandestine mason that you could not join a GL masons.



My jurisdictions would put the man through his degrees.  We would be very happy to regularize a Mister who wanted to be a Brother but ended up petitioning the wrong place.

We aren't to pass the tiler of any clandestine lodge.  Extremely different from not welcoming a man as a candidate.  Sounds like the brothers you mention don't know what our words mean.  Given how uncommon Masonic teaching is on topics other than ritual this does not surprise me.


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## Dontrell Stroman

You know I think honestly people don't know how to take me. When I post a thread I'm only speaking from what I've seen or encountered. As I talk to this brothers on this app it blows my mind how diverse we as a family are. I'm from East Tn so some of the things that I mention here may foreign to some. TN is behind in times.


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## acjohnson53

Travelling Man91 said:


> Hold on brother, I'm not talking about a clandestine 4 letter mason coming over to Prince Hall masonry, I'm talking about a Prince Hall mason going to mainstream wether they be black or white.



okay, i'll leave it at that...


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## Bloke

Travelling Man91 said:


> You know I think honestly people don't know how to take me. When I post a thread I'm only speaking from what I've seen or encountered. As I talk to this brothers on this app it blows my mind how diverse we as a family are. I'm from East Tn so some of the things that I mention here may foreign to some. TN is behind in times.



You're part of the diversity and your posts are most welcome


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## Glen Cook

Travelling Man91 said:


> You know I think honestly people don't know how to take me. When I post a thread I'm only speaking from what I've seen or encountered. As I talk to this brothers on this app it blows my mind how diverse we as a family are. I'm from East Tn so some of the things that I mention here may foreign to some. TN is behind in times.


No, you seem rather transparent. You just have Masons who are not widely experienced as mentors.  Not at all uncommon.


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## Bloke

Glen Cook said:


> No, you seem rather transparent. You just have Masons who are not widely experienced as mentors.  Not at all uncommon.



That said - i too had never heard of a "healing ceremony".....  and i actually dont like the phrase as it suggests the guy is damaged or tainted...


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## Dontrell Stroman

I have never seen the ceremony, but I have a couple of brothers in my lodge that have been "healed". I believe it's just where you show you are proficient in your degrees. I would personally make them go through it again for the sole purpose of experiencing it the right way. I know in some clandestine lodges that give all three degrees in one night. Let's be honest here, it took some time for just one of my degrees, I couldn't imagine doing all three in one night. I'm sure doing that, important steps are skipped. Also it is my understanding that only MM can be "healed" if you are a EA or FC you have to be initiated and passed again.


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## Bro. David F. Hill

The "healing " process is no longer allowed by the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas.  They must go through the degrees and prove proficiency at each level.


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## Dontrell Stroman

Bro. David F. Hill said:


> The "healing " process is no longer allowed by the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas.  They must go through the degrees and prove proficiency at each level.


That's the way it should be


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## Glen Cook

Travelling Man91 said:


> I have never seen the ceremony, but I have a couple of brothers in my lodge that have been "healed". I believe it's just where you show you are proficient in your degrees. I would personally make them go through it again for the sole purpose of experiencing it the right way. I know in some clandestine lodges that give all three degrees in one night. Let's be honest here, it took some time for just one of my degrees, I couldn't imagine doing all three in one night. I'm sure doing that, important steps are skipped....



Remember, that in ancient Scottish Masonry the -2- degrees were given together


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## Dontrell Stroman

Glen Cook said:


> Remember, that in ancient Scottish Masonry the -2- degrees were given together


I did not know that. Learned something new.


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## MRichard

Travelling Man91 said:


> Hold on brother, I'm not talking about a clandestine 4 letter mason coming over to Prince Hall masonry, I'm talking about a Prince Hall mason going to mainstream wether they be black or white.



You have to take into consideration where the state where you live. The Grand Lodge of TN does not recognize the Prince Hall grand lodge in its jurisdiction. There might be other factors in play as well. This scenario would not be an issue in most states though.


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## acjohnson53

Travelling Man91 said:


> That's the way it should be


I totally agree...


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## acjohnson53

From reading some of these post on this topic, in California PHA and AFAM Join each other on certain events..


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## Glen Cook

acjohnson53 said:


> From reading some of these post on this topic, in California PHA and AFAM Join each other on certain events..


Friday, I shall  be one of the installing officers for Shrine Temples from both jurisdictions.


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## acjohnson53

Brother Keep Grinding, I'm headed to the Mystic Shrine in the near future...


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## Brother JC

acjohnson53 said:


> From reading some of these post on this topic, in California PHA and AFAM Join each other on certain events..


The Grand Lodge of California is F&AM, and yes, they do events together with their PHA counterparts. My Mother GL (NM) is AF&AM and also does joint events with their PHA Brethren.


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## Mindovermatter Ace

As to the original post, it is historically true. In the past proceedings of my Grand Lodge, it's written that a Clandestine or spurious mason could never become a Mason. This would have included Prince Hall Affiliated Masons at that point in time. Today, there may still be maybe one or two jurisdictions where this may still be applicable but that's highly unlikely since most jurisdictions erroneously heal over Clandestine masons or allow them to petition as a profane. But yes prior to the mid 19th century, if you were raised in a Clandestine body, regardless of race, you could never be a Mason.


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## Glen Cook

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> As to the original post, it is historically true. In the past proceedings of my Grand Lodge, it's written that a Clandestine or spurious mason could never become a Mason. This would have included Prince Hall Affiliated Masons at that point in time. Today, there may still be maybe one or two jurisdictions where this may still be applicable but that's highly unlikely since most jurisdictions erroneously heal over Clandestine masons or allow them to petition as a profane. But yes prior to the mid 19th century, if you were raised in a Clandestine body, regardless of race, you could never be a Mason.


And why are their actions in healing erroneous?


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## MRichard

Please keep in mind that each grand lodge is sovereign. The Grand Lodge of Louisiana's way of thinking  is not binding upon another grand lodge .


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## Mindovermatter Ace

Glen Cook said:


> And why are their actions in healing erroneous?



I say that based on the definition of a healing as defined by Albert Mackey in his encyclopedia on Freemasonry, as well as the past proceedings of my Grand Lodge. Essentially a healing is just a changing of allegiance/obedience and protection. A clandestine or spurious mason cannot be healed because if the jurisdiction considers the body the person came from to be Clandestine or doesn't recognize them, then they were never made masons.

It's the situation I am in right now. My Grand Lodge has approved my petition with the assumption that I would be healed over. Well, in order for me to be healed over, I would have  to petition for affiliation to the lodge either by demit or by transfer. Since the jurisdiction I came from is not recognized by the Grand Lodge, and their Constitution states that if a person is raised in a lodge in this territory not under the Grand Lodge then he is not a mason, I cannot be healed. The laws also state that a healing is possible for a Clandestine or irregular mason, which confused me at first, but if I was gonna heal over, I would need a demit. Since the Grand Lodge doesn't accept my demit as valid (because they do not recognize the PHGL), I cannot be healed.

In other words, if I would have petitioned the lodge with the mere intention to affiliate (by demit or transfer), they more than likely would have healed me over, but that would have been in error.

Since I petitioned the lodge as a profane (which I was suppose to do per the laws) I must have the degrees conferred again. To which I prefer as the new lodge and degrees are Scottish.

Bro. Kevion Rogers, Michael Poll, the Grand Secretary and myself  have been conferring with each other all weekend to figure out how to remedy this issue.

A Clandestine mason cannot be healed because he was never a made a mason, which would make regular jurisdictions that heal over spurious or clandestine masons, in error.


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## Glen Cook

Wait, you are not yet a member of the GL of LA?

And the degrees are not Scottish, but Scottish Rite. The word Scottish by itself would refer to the GL of Scotland


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## Glen Cook

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> I say that based on the definition of a healing as defined by Albert Mackey in his encyclopedia on Freemasonry, as well as the past proceedings of my Grand Lodge. Essentially a healing is just a changing of allegiance/obedience and protection. A clandestine or spurious mason cannot be healed because if the jurisdiction considers the body the person came from to be Clandestine or doesn't recognize them, then they were never made masons.
> 
> It's the situation I am in right now. My Grand Lodge has approved my petition with the assumption that I would be healed over. Well, in order for me to be healed over, I would have  to petition for affiliation to the lodge either by demit or by transfer. Since the jurisdiction I came from is not recognized by the Grand Lodge, and their Constitution states that if a person is raised in a lodge in this territory not under the Grand Lodge then he is not a mason, I cannot be healed. The laws also state that a healing is possible for a Clandestine or irregular mason, which confused me at first, but if I was gonna heal over, I would need a demit. Since the Grand Lodge doesn't accept my demit as valid (because they do not recognize the PHGL), I cannot be healed.
> 
> In other words, if I would have petitioned the lodge with the mere intention to affiliate (by demit or transfer), they more than likely would have healed me over, but that would have been in error.
> 
> Since I petitioned the lodge as a profane (which I was suppose to do per the laws) I must have the degrees conferred again. To which I prefer as the new lodge and degrees are Scottish.
> 
> Bro. Kevion Rogers, Michael Poll, the Grand Secretary and myself  have been conferring with each other all weekend to figure out how to remedy this issue.
> 
> A Clandestine mason cannot be healed because he was never a made a mason, which would make regular jurisdictions that heal over spurious or clandestine masons, in error.


That is the analysis for that GL. Others draw the distinction between an irregularly made Mason and a clandestine Mason. Others would not require a dimit. Others would require a renunciation and a petition as a profane. 

I would caution against an overvteliance upon Mackey, particularly when he provides no citation. His Landmasrks aren't even accepted by all GLs (or by Pound, who certainly was a greater intellect and had the benefit of history.


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## MRichard

No healing process in my grand lodge.


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## dfreybur

We Masons love our technicalities and letter of the law, don't we?  Sigh.


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## Mindovermatter Ace

Glen Cook said:


> Wait, you are not yet a member of the GL of LA?
> 
> And the degrees are not Scottish, but Scottish Rite. The word Scottish by itself would refer to the GL of Scotland





I am a member. I was approved this February by the Grand Lodge. Technically I was healed over. I did the renouncing etc. The dilemma is that I want to have the degrees conferred upon me so that I can get the full experience. 


Aaron Christopher 
Cervantes #5 
Grand Lodge of Louisiana F&AM


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## Mindovermatter Ace

Why do brothers always attempt to downplay the influence of Albert Mackey when his jurisprudence is adopted in many of the laws of Masonic jurisdictions and his laws of jurisprudence still used in cases of common laws to this day? 


Aaron Christopher 
Cervantes #5 
Grand Lodge of Louisiana F&AM


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## Glen Cook

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> Why do brothers always attempt to downplay the influence of Albert Mackey when his jurisprudence is adopted in many of the laws of Masonic jurisdictions and his laws of jurisprudence still used in cases of common laws to this day?
> 
> 
> Aaron Christopher
> Cervantes #5
> Grand Lodge of Louisiana F&AM


Because those of us who actually work in Masonic jurisprudence understand that he was a commentator only at a time when Masonic jurisprudence in this country was not well developed


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## Mindovermatter Ace

Glen Cook said:


> Because those of us who actually work in Masonic jurisprudence understand that he was a commentator only at a time when Masonic jurisprudence in this country was not well developed



Agreed, but what makes it developed now? We have difficulty following our own rules, and modify them to fit ideals instead of enacting a strict conformity to Masonic traditions and ancient (older) practices. Are we changing with the times or are we changing based on perceptions, interpretations, and opinions?


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## Glen Cook

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> Agreed, but what makes it developed now? We have difficulty following our own rules, and modify them to fit ideals instead of enacting a strict conformity to Masonic traditions and ancient (older) practices. Are we changing with the times or are we changing based on perceptions, interpretations, and opinions?


Let me respond by asking this: have interpretations of the US Constitution changed?  We grow and evolve in our sensibilities as a national culture and as a Masonic culture. 

Further, new Masonic constitutions were formed by sovereign grand lodges, sometimes reflecting the civil populist ideals of that time. This has resulted in some cases in a more democratic Masonic government with weakened powers of a GM. This is generally reckoned to be a good thing (and there is a certain gratification in telling an over reaching GM he can't do something).


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## Mindovermatter Ace

Glen Cook said:


> Let me respond by asking this: have interpretations of the US Constitution changed?  We grow and evolve in our sensibilities as a national culture and as a Masonic culture.
> 
> Further, new Masonic constitutions were formed by sovereign grand lodges, sometimes reflecting the civil populist ideals of that time. This has resulted in some cases in a more democratic Masonic government with weakened powers of a GM. This is generally reckoned to be a good thing (and there is a certain gratification in telling an over reaching GM he can't do something).




Touché


Aaron Christopher 
Cervantes #5 
Grand Lodge of Louisiana F&AM


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## acjohnson53

Bruh you being here before, keep putting it out there...


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## Glen Cook

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> Touché
> 
> 
> Aaron Christopher
> Cervantes #5
> Grand Lodge of Louisiana F&AM


Sorry. Touching isn't allowed in TN and GA.


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## pointwithinacircle2

Glen Cook said:


> Sorry. Touching isn't allowed in TN and GA.


ROTFL - best comment yet on the situation!


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## acjohnson53

Hazing is not tolerated no where anymore...I witnessed a brother get hit while blind folded.....talking bout a sucker punch...


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## acjohnson53

almost denounced Masonry at that point


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## Ripcord22A

acjohnson53 said:


> Hazing is not tolerated no where anymore


 Wait, so I didnt have to chase a goat naked?....lol....I kid I kid.


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## acjohnson53

That goat ride was real, I stayed on for 8 seconds...


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## Randy81

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Wait, so I didnt have to chase a goat naked?....lol....I kid I kid.


Lol, I can see you having to do this but with your unit, not your lodge! Some the stuff us Soldiers come up with!


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## Ripcord22A

acjohnson53 said:


> Hazing is not tolerated no where anymore


Wait, so I didnt have to chase a goat naked?....lol....I kid I kid.


Randy81 said:


> Lol, I can see you having to do this but with your unit, not your lodge! Some the stuff us Soldiers come up with!


 Never had to do anything with an animal in the Army but did have to qualify(pronounced Kolafy) this is achieved by hugging a tree upside down and holding your self there as long as possible....it was fun.


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## Mindovermatter Ace

Glen Cook said:


> Sorry. Touching isn't allowed in TN and GA.



Sure it is. On the ......points ..... fellowship and others, but not if you "touched" an extremity.


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## Glen Cook

acjohnson53 said:


> Hazing is not tolerated no where anymore...I witnessed a brother get hit while blind folded.....talking bout a sucker punch...


Err, that was not the intent behind the poor joke. 

And, I can guarantee that if you go to hill country, you will see a second section that leaves the candidate sore the next day.


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## acjohnson53

not tolerated, I would take off the hoodwink and handle some business, u don't have to put ur hands on me...any man that has to put his hands on some while he's blind folded is weak...I want to use some other words but I'm going to keep it politically correct..


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