# Not passing your examination



## nixxon2000 (Jun 3, 2014)

So here is a strange question. What happens if a candidate does not pass the degree examination (ea, fc, or mm) ? 

We had one tonight that almost did not pass in my opinion. Just curious what your lodge does in that case? Thanks


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## Bill Lins (Jun 3, 2014)

It shouldn't ever happen because the instructor should not present a candidate for examination who is not prepared. However, it sometimes happens and the Lodge should (tactfully) remand the candidate for further instruction. The important thing is that the candidate understands the lessons taught by way of the work, not that he recites the wording perfectly.


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## nixxon2000 (Jun 3, 2014)

And I think that's part f my point. He has a photographic memory. He knows the book bit not the meaning. He says he's ready but does not understand what were teaching him. 

Thought. 

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## Pscyclepath (Jun 4, 2014)

Agree with Bill...  a lecturer or instructor should not present a candidate who isn't ready.   If a person has a problem choking up in front of the lodge, the Master can arrange to have him examined by a committee, which then reports back to the lodge.

But in case the committee or the lodge votes unfavorably, that just requires the candidate to practice some more before trying again.  In jurisdictions where there is a time limit for turning in the lectures, there may need to be an extension, otherwise, keep practicing.

When I teach the lectures, I will exemplify it for him (at the degree, typically he only gets to hear it up to the obligation), then I go thru it part by part, as to what each piece really means.   Then we start the learn-by-rote process so that he starts the memorization.  If you simply start memorization without the explanation, that might be part of the problem...


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## nixxon2000 (Jun 4, 2014)

What has all been said I agree with. He needs time to learn and we should provide him as much support as we can. 

Now the hypothetical person that's trying to learn and just can't seem to grasp it for one reason or another. How long do they keep training them?  

Has anyone seen someone not be able to complete the degree examinations?  

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## dfreybur (Jun 4, 2014)

nixxon2000 said:


> And I think that's part f my point. He has a photographic memory. He knows the book bit not the meaning. He says he's ready but does not understand what were teaching him.



In the jurisdictions I know the memorization is all that is required.  He'd pass.  The brothers in attendance might have no idea he does not understand what he just parroted.



nixxon2000 said:


> Now the hypothetical person that's trying to learn and just can't seem to grasp it for one reason or another. How long do they keep training them?



As long as they are willing to continue working.  I've seen guys who didn't expect to have to work much to earn their degrees not progress.


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## nixxon2000 (Jun 4, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> As long as they are willing to continue working.  I've seen guys who didn't expect to have to work much to earn their degrees not progress.




That's interesting I know people who talk about joining just to learn the secrets. Maybe this is one say to sift them out. 

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## Glen Cook (Jun 4, 2014)

Yes, I've seen those who have failed examination (in England I've never seen this happen as only  few questions asked and the Deacon will coach the candidate).


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 17, 2014)

While visiting other lodges I've seen candidates who have to be prompted every second or third word that still passed.


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## Zack (Oct 17, 2014)

Pscyclepath said:


> If a person has a problem choking up in front of the lodge, the Master can arrange to have him examined by a committee, which then reports back to the lodge..


 
That is not true in all jurisdictions


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 17, 2014)

Zack said:


> That is not true in all jurisdictions


Yeah, in Kentucky the exam has to be in lodge.


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## mrpierce17 (Oct 17, 2014)

In FL Prince Hall lodges you have to do it in lodge and if you can't show suitable proficiency  .......and we where at times asked a question ,and after answering, then asked to explain what does that mean to you in your life/travels so if he had no understanding/overstanding  of the lesson he would Not have passed , you have the rest of your life to be a Mason but you only go through the degrees once it's a journey not a destination "traveling man "travel liGht my brothers


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## MBC (Oct 17, 2014)

Glen Cook said:


> Yes, I've seen those who have failed examination (in England I've never seen this happen as only  few questions asked and the Deacon will coach the candidate).


Brother, I see a candidate who needed the Deacon to prompt him for full answers every single questions and he still passed...
Furthermore, when he was asked to do a First degree sign, he gave the Second degree one and with different hands... When he was asked about the Second degree sign, he gave the First's...
I agree that a candidate should be well-prepared before the examinations, otherwise we just like a normal society.


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## nixxon2000 (Oct 17, 2014)

I really think we should have a gold standard for initiations. It should be harder to join the 3rd Degree.


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## mrpierce17 (Oct 17, 2014)

nixxon2000 said:


> I really think we should have a gold standard for initiations. It should be harder to join the 3rd Degree.


We do in my jurisdiction if you don't satisfy the craft and the WM upon examination when showing proficiency you do not pass go do not collect $200 the first 3 degrees in masonry are earned not given , not brought , build your temple on a solid foundation not sinking sand , rushing a brother trough degrees when they are not proficient only stagnates his advancement in truly understanding the material in my opinion we are not just craftsmen  we are Master builders


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## BroBill (Oct 18, 2014)

I enjoy taking EAs and FCs to near-by lodges when they confer those degrees so the EA or FC can see the degree at least once while doing their work.  It's a great way to explain the work in plain language while they observe it in due form.


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## dfreybur (Oct 20, 2014)

MBC said:


> Brother, I see a candidate who needed the Deacon to prompt him for full answers every single questions and he still passed...



I recall a candidate who had to deliver his entire proficiency by repeating.  He'll never enter the line but well over a decade in he remains one of the most active Masons in the district.  At times being generous is for the best of the order.



> with different hands...



Being left handed I struggled with that a lot and I still get them reversed a couple percent of the time.

The signs are subtly different in detail jurisdiction to jurisdiction.  As most are quick to make them the differences don't appear.  One of the signs in Texas is in a different order than in other states and I constantly struggle with that difference.  Looking around the room you can tell who's visiting.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 20, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> I recall a candidate who had to deliver his entire proficiency by repeating.  He'll never enter the line but well over a decade in he remains one of the most active Masons in the district.  At times being generous is for the best of the order.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see your point.


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## mrpierce17 (Oct 20, 2014)

MBC said:


> Brother, I see a candidate who needed the Deacon to prompt him for full answers every single questions and he still passed...
> Furthermore, when he was asked to do a First degree sign, he gave the Second degree one and with different hands... When he was asked about the Second degree sign, he gave the First's....


He might've gotten thrown out the window smh lol


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## Pete Ramboldt (Oct 21, 2014)

"Being left handed I struggled with that a lot and I still get them reversed a couple percent of the time"
I'm  a lefty also. When I do the signs I pay attention to my ring. I always wear my ring on my rught hand. So when I do the signs I remember that my ring will always lay on the VSL. (Keeps me out of trouble - hope this helps!)


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## Brother_Steve (Oct 21, 2014)

We had an EA who gave a decent exam in front of his mentor and two witnesses before he tested out in open lodge.

He froze in open lodge and had to be prompted several times.

If I had not seen him do it downstairs before the meeting, I would have been embarrassed.

It was explained that he was witnessed by several brothers and those brothers were reputable. His examination was excepted and he is about to be raised.


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## nixxon2000 (Oct 26, 2014)

Brother_Steve said:


> We had an EA who gave a decent exam in front of his mentor and two witnesses before he tested out in open lodge.
> 
> He froze in open lodge and had to be prompted several times.
> 
> ...



That is understandable. I remember my brain rebooting when I was doing my FC exam. There is nothing wrong with that. 

It just seems like sometimes someone watches national treasure too many times and decides he wants to be a Freemason to know where the gold is. Then they don't take time to learn what it's really about.


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## Brother_Steve (Oct 28, 2014)

heh...excepted should have read as accepted.  wow.


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## Sonic Architect (Sep 6, 2017)

I had given my proficiency of the E.A degree in April. 2017. I have still not been passed to F.C. The lodge says they will pass me into the F.C In October, six months after I had already proven myself in the former degree... I am starting to think they do not want me to advance and am losing hope... Is this normal in Masonry? what should I do...


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## MarkR (Sep 6, 2017)

Sonic Architect said:


> I had given my proficiency of the E.A degree in April. 2017. I have still not been passed to F.C. The lodge says they will pass me into the F.C In October, six months after I had already proven myself in the former degree... I am starting to think they do not want me to advance and am losing hope... Is this normal in Masonry? what should I do...


There's a chance that they are having difficulty getting enough proficient brothers together to put the degree on.  It happens.


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## Ripcord22A (Sep 6, 2017)

Sonic Architect said:


> I had given my proficiency of the E.A degree in April. 2017. I have still not been passed to F.C. The lodge says they will pass me into the F.C In October, six months after I had already proven myself in the former degree... I am starting to think they do not want me to advance and am losing hope... Is this normal in Masonry? what should I do...


Some jurisdictions make you wait years

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## Warrior1256 (Sep 6, 2017)

Sonic Architect said:


> Is this normal in Masonry? what should I do...


There really is no "normal" in this sort of thing. Different GLs, jurisdictions and lodges do things differently according to their by laws, customs of the lodge, etc.


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## Thomas Stright (Sep 6, 2017)

Sonic Architect said:


> I had given my proficiency of the E.A degree in April. 2017. I have still not been passed to F.C. The lodge says they will pass me into the F.C In October, six months after I had already proven myself in the former degree... I am starting to think they do not want me to advance and am losing hope... Is this normal in Masonry? what should I do...



My lodge here in Texas usually has the degree the same night as the exam.


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## Brother_Steve (Sep 7, 2017)

nixxon2000 said:


> So here is a strange question. What happens if a candidate does not pass the degree examination (ea, fc, or mm) ?
> 
> We had one tonight that almost did not pass in my opinion. Just curious what your lodge does in that case? Thanks


We get a past master and two brothers, preferably officers to watch the candidate/Brother go through the exam downstairs whether it be the night before or the night of his exam. If he can do it, he goes upstairs after the WM is informed he has it memorized. If he freezes and stutters through because of nerves, the WM can assure the brethren that he has shown to known the work and can be vouched for. We trust the word of our IC when it comes to casting a ballot on a petitioner. Why not take the word of three trust worthy Brothers for proficiency?...


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 7, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> We get a past master and two brothers, preferably officers to watch the candidate/Brother go through the exam downstairs whether it be the night before or the night of his exam. If he can do it, he goes upstairs after the WM is informed he has it memorized. If he freezes and stutters through because of nerves, the WM can assure the brethren that he has shown to known the work and can be vouched for.


I, personally, don't have a problem with this. I don't believe that it should just be done in front of a committee. As you stated, it should ultimately be done in open lodge.


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## Zack (Sep 7, 2017)

In my jurisdiction it is "suitable proficiency".

Define "suitable".

I've seen(heard) some pretty bad ones but have never heard of a Brother failing.


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## David Duke (Sep 7, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> We get a past master and two brothers, preferably officers to watch the candidate/Brother go through the exam downstairs whether it be the night before or the night of his exam. If he can do it, he goes upstairs after the WM is informed he has it memorized. If he freezes and stutters through because of nerves, the WM can assure the brethren that he has shown to known the work and can be vouched for. We trust the word of our IC when it comes to casting a ballot on a petitioner. Why not take the word of three trust worthy Brothers for proficiency?...



Much the same way at my Lodge, however I have seen  a Brother being taught by someone from another lodge (we do assign instructors but he went to a friend) and they come to Lodge insisting that he was ready. He was examined in Lodge and the SD who was examining him asked him about 10 questions in if he was sure he wanted to continue, he agreed that he needed stop and get with his assigned instructor. I am happy to say he later completed  all his work ( in excellent fashion) and is an active master mason. . 


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 8, 2017)

Zack said:


> Define "suitable".


Yeah, this is pretty open ended.


Zack said:


> I've seen(heard) some pretty bad ones but have never heard of a Brother failing.


I once saw a proficiency where the candidate was prompted, he would repeat the prompt, and it went this way through the whole thing. He passed.


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## CLewey44 (Sep 8, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Yeah, this is pretty open ended.
> 
> I once saw a proficiency where the candidate was prompted, he would repeat the prompt, and it went this way through the whole thing. He passed.



Yeah, that's pretty annoying. Some folks freeze up in front of others. I get it, anxiety, the BP shoots up, adrenaline, the shakes, dry mouth but usually they pull it together and with a couple of prompts, they get through it just fine.

I've never seen anyone get voted down but I've seen a few that were clearly not ready and they should have not been found proficient by any standard. But, it is what it is. In OK, they vote with the brother standing there at the altar. I think maybe they should ask him to leave and then vote. Or at least an optional thing by the WM to ask them to step out while they vote. If he clearly nails it and zero prompts etc, maybe they could vote with him there but if he's on the edge or clearly not ready, I'd say have him step out for a few moments. Wouldn't hurt. I think guys would vote more 'honestly' that way. Even use the ballot box method that way if it's somebody's son, people may feel more comfortable. Sure, it takes a few more minutes but it'd be a way of ensuring proficiency and really guarding the 'west' in a way.

Nobody wants to go against the grain too much and they feel sorry for them but if there is no face to the voting results, it's a little more private that way and guys may vote what they really are thinking.


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## rpbrown (Sep 8, 2017)

We have a member in out lodge that transferred from out of state. I am not saying which jurisdiction so there is no embarrassment if this is seen. Anyway, he knows none of the work. According to him, in his jurisdiction, they did not require and memorization, just receive the degree and pay the money.  He is learning the work in our lodge even though he is a MM, but he sits at all practice sessions so he can learn the work.

As for being examined in lodge, our lodge (and pretty sure GLoT) requires it in open lodge. However, the candidate can be prompted if needed to a point. 

I will say that when I went to the East, at my first Stated Meeting, I knew the work, had practiced opening and closing many times. However, when I started the opening, my brain decided to leave and I formed lock jaw. Every Past Master in our lodge said it happened to them as well. We all agreed it was the hat that caused it


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## CLewey44 (Sep 8, 2017)

For sure, the anxiety goes up, we can't think. All we want to do is run out of there but that's socially unacceptable and we freeze up.


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 8, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> I think maybe they should ask him to leave and then vote. Or at least an optional thing by the WM to ask them to step out while they vote.


I do have to say that all of the proficiencies that I have seen the candidate was asked to step outside of the lodge while the vote was taken.


rpbrown said:


> As for being examined in lodge, our lodge (and pretty sure GLoT) requires it in open lodge. However, the candidate can be prompted if needed to a point.


Same here.


rpbrown said:


> I knew the work, had practiced opening and closing many times. However, when I started the opening, my brain decided to leave and I formed lock jaw.


Lol...been there, done that. A few weeks ago I was visiting a lodge and was asked to fill the SW position, the same position that I hold in my mother lodge. Once in the opening and once in the closing I "blanked out" and had to be prompted. We all had a good chuckle about it afterward.


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## Ripcord22A (Sep 8, 2017)

In all the lodges Ive been to that I've seen a profeciency turned in, at the competion the Master leaves the East approaches the Alter and i forms the candidate that he finds him proficient and shakes the candidates hand.  Ive never seen a vote

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## Thomas Stright (Sep 8, 2017)

You can sound like Lorne Greene when practicing..... And come off like Daffy Duck when sitting in front of an open lodge.


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## CLewey44 (Sep 8, 2017)

Lol, this is true.


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 8, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> In all the lodges Ive been to that I've seen a profeciency turned in, at the competion the Master leaves the East approaches the Alter and i forms the candidate that he finds him proficient and shakes the candidates hand. Ive never seen a vote


Maybe it's a Kentucky thing but I have always seen a vote by the membership of the lodge


Thomas Stright said:


> You can sound like Lorne Greene when practicing..... And come off like Daffy Duck when sitting in front of an open lodge.


  LOL......very true!


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## Thomas Stright (Sep 8, 2017)

In our lodge, candidate turns in his work, then stands behind the alter with his instructor who makes a motion that the candidate be found proficient, someone will second and the lodge takes a vote by show of hands.  


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## MarkR (Sep 8, 2017)

Altar, not alter.  IJS.


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## Bloke (Sep 11, 2017)

Sonic Architect said:


> I had given my proficiency of the E.A degree in April. 2017. I have still not been passed to F.C. The lodge says they will pass me into the F.C In October, six months after I had already proven myself in the former degree... I am starting to think they do not want me to advance and am losing hope... Is this normal in Masonry? what should I do...


It is not unusual here where you must wait 52 weeks between initiation and MM Degree. This means we fit a FC in where we can, but on a long time line. Certainly not unheard of to take 4-12 months to get your second degree.

Are you attending Lodge ?


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## Bill Lins (Sep 11, 2017)

Let's think of it in terms of the operative Masons of yore- would they have let a FC progress to the level of MM if the quality of his work were lacking?


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## CLewey44 (Sep 12, 2017)

Bill Lins said:


> Let's think of it in terms of the operative Masons of yore- would they have let a FC progress to the level of MM if the quality of his work were lacking?


Excellent point Bro. Bill.


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 12, 2017)

Bill Lins said:


> Let's think of it in terms of the operative Masons of yore- would they have let a FC progress to the level of MM if the quality of his work were lacking?





CLewey44 said:


> Excellent point Bro. Bill.


Agreed, VERY good point!


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## Phil P (Sep 17, 2017)

Proficiency NOT perfection


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 18, 2017)

Phil P said:


> Proficiency NOT perfection


Agreed. Everyone needs a prompt now and then but it should be better than simply parroting back the words.


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