# What religion did this come from?



## JTM (Dec 18, 2009)

> I, or rather _________, beseech you as __________'s heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those _________ and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, __________ commands it.





> All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of _______ with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent ________ and is made glorious with the name of _______! With what reproaches will the _______ overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the _______ religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to *wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels* and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become ______. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the ________, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with _______ as their guide.


Hint: it was a long time ago.  It's not very difficult.


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## Sirius (Dec 18, 2009)

Christian. 

I believe Pope Urban II?


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## JTM (Dec 18, 2009)

yes.  as it was read aloud to me the other night, i couldn't help but think that these words could have come from the mouth of osama bin laden himself if you filled the blanks in correctly.


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## Sirius (Dec 18, 2009)

It does sound like ti could be from binladin. This is a powerful example of how religious fundamentalism gets people killed.

Where did you hear it?


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## JTM (Dec 18, 2009)

this last stated meeting we had, a professor from A&M came and talked about the history of the crusades, this one on a slide, i looked it up later.


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## Sirius (Dec 18, 2009)

Nice. I love meeting like that. 

The Crusades weren't Christianity's brightest moment. But without the crusades, there would be no Renaissance and no Masonry.


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## LRG (Dec 18, 2009)

I care less of religion. I care the most for FAITH


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## rhitland (Dec 18, 2009)

I know the Pope right now I think his name is Benedict the 16th reconstituted a prayer from the 400's that is not very pleasant for the Muslim faith or any faith but his kind really.


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## Sirius (Dec 19, 2009)

LRG said:


> I care less of religion. I care the most for FAITH




What does this mean?


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## LRG (Dec 19, 2009)

Religion can be tainted, well paid, lost, and deceitful.

What religion was Abraham, Moses, JESUS? They were none(catholic,muslim,budda etc.)
They had FAITH in one GOD-The King of Kings. My FATHER is everywhere.

What religion is our craft. None, but we have faith. A belief in one GOD.  And, our craft has done more for humanity than religion. For what charge to humanity? None


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## Sirius (Dec 19, 2009)

The Muslim ,Jew , and Buddhist would say they have faith also. Are they not equal as Brethren? Is their faith any less?


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## LRG (Dec 19, 2009)

Religion------------------------------Faith


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## Sirius (Dec 20, 2009)

LRG said:


> Religion------------------------------Faith


 
I'm sorry, but I dont understand  your meaning.


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## Blake Bowden (Dec 20, 2009)

Sirius said:


> The Muslim ,Jew , and Buddhist would say they have faith also. Are they not equal as Brethren? Is their faith any less?


 
Would I sit in Lodge with a Brother of another faith? Of course, but when it comes to religion, Christianity is NOT equal to Judaism, Islam or (INSERT RELIGION). You either choose to follow Christ or refuse him. That being said, I'm not going to place limits on who God allows into Heaven. 

Quick question.....how come Christianity is the religion often targeted here? Why is it okay to dissect and question Christianity, but take a hands off approach when it comes to other faiths? We should examine all religions and leave it up to the individual to decide what path to take....


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## LRG (Dec 20, 2009)

Good question. Christianity( Jesus Christ ) is well thought of in many ways. The Koran has connections with our VSL-Book of Faith-. So why we won't get along? Pride. My Lord is better than yours. And this is true my Lord Jesus Christ is the one and only. Why?
In the Old Testament, God was of war and HE would wipe tribes and seeds off. Our God -The Only GOD -gave us Himself in flesh- Jesus - Jesus concluded the Old Testament and began the New Testament. Jesus preached about love, charity, fellowship, humble, and taking care of the sick. Jesus refused war and allowed himself to be TORTURED and Crucified. My Lord Jesus Christ only had to say " Help Father " and what do you think would have happened. Whatever belief one may have, one thing is true, Jesus Christ died for your sins.

Islam. Mohammed was of war.
Maybe someone could say of the good deeds that was done. 
Who am I to say their beliefs are of not.
I respect all religions and it is hard to see the finger pointing at Christians. Because I am one

____________________________________________________________________________________
What would happen if you take away religion and only left with faith? Does Faith need religion? When Moses went to recieve orders from Our Father, what were the people doing? Creating a religion?
____________________________________________________________________________________


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## Sirius (Dec 20, 2009)

blake said:


> Why is it okay to dissect and question Christianity, but take a hands off approach when it comes to other faiths?



It's the assumption that everyone else is wrong. Many Christians here state that they are correct and every other religion is wrong. Why cant two people have different faith? Why must one be 'religion' and therefore less than equal. 



LRG said:


> Good question. Christianity( Jesus Christ ) is well thought of in many ways. The Koran has connections with our VSL-Book of Faith-. So why we won't get along? Pride. My Lord is better than yours. And this is true my Lord Jesus Christ is the one and only.


 
I agree with your sentiments but disagree with your theology. But, I'll leave the theology alone. I think its more than pride that make us defensive about our faith, its our ticket to heaven. You question a mans faith and your questing his ability to get to heaven. But why must it be this way? Why cant we simply accept what we believe and it be OK for others to have there own quite faith? Why must those that believe different necessarily be wrong?


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## LRG (Dec 20, 2009)

B/Sonny, what do you believe?


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## Sirius (Dec 20, 2009)

LRG said:


> B/Sonny, what do you believe?


 
Thats a very broad question. I think the answer you're looking for is this. I'm a Christian. That being said, I think that modern Christendom has misread scripture to its advantage. I guess the best term (label) for me would be, Gnostic Christian. But I don't think other Christians are necessarily wrong for their faith, just different.


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## LRG (Dec 20, 2009)

ahh gnostic. explains alot-just kiddin 

your right and that is exactly what i mean. leave it up to man to twist. to find hidden messages in passages. out of text. manipulate.

Is our GOD the same as everyone else? Maybe! Islam is not bad, it is just the radicals who brainwash the out of text passages within the scripture. One could get a different meaning out of the same scripture countless times.
It boils down to Faith not what ones wrote about hundreds of years After Christ.


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## Sirius (Dec 20, 2009)

LRG said:


> ahh gnostic. explains alot-just kiddin
> 
> your right and that is exactly what i mean. leave it up to man to twist. to find hidden messages in passages. out of text. manipulate.
> 
> ...


 
I think you're correct. It is man that manipulates words and people. I know every Christian isn't like the KKK'ers who will use scripture to justify everything they say. And I know every Muslim isn't out to start a jihad.   A man half way across the world can lead a normal life, practice his faith, and feel a connection to God.  Just because his faith is different doesn't make me feel his connection to God is any less thine mine, its just different. In my book different doesn't mean wrong. Judge not.


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## LRG (Dec 20, 2009)

Sirius said:


> I think you're correct. It is man that manipulates words and people. I know every Christian isn't like the KKK'ers who will use scripture to justify everything they say. And I know every Muslim isn't out to start a jihad. A man half way across the world can lead a normal life, practice his faith, and feel a connection to God. Just because his faith is different doesn't make me feel his connection to God is any less thine mine, its just different. In my book different doesn't mean wrong. Judge not.


 
That is beautiful. Thank you Brother


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## Blake Bowden (Dec 20, 2009)

Sirius said:


> In my book different doesn't mean wrong. Judge not.


 
What does John 14:6 mean to you?

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Should we twist that verse in order to fit our own agenda? If you truly believe in the teachings of Christ, then you must accept that *he* is the only way to Salvation.  I have no problem respecting someones beliefs, but not at the expense of downplaying  my own, nor would I except a Brother of another faith to do so.

I grow tired of threads such as this. You can spend a good 15 minutes searching through thousands of posts and not one is critical or questions the validity of other faiths, except Christianity. Most everyone on this forum has an open mind, but good grief.


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## LRG (Dec 20, 2009)

You can show the goat where the water is but you can not make it drink.

Something I gave up on. It almost seems that you are born with our belief


"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
I love this- The Truth


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## RedTemplar (Dec 20, 2009)

Gnostic means to know. So, if we know, what is faith for?


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## Sirius (Dec 21, 2009)

blake said:


> What does John 14:6 mean to you?
> 
> "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
> 
> ...


 
Well, the Muslims take it on the chin on a regular basis. 

But to your question about  John 14:6- I believe Jesus is saying his teachings are the guide to truth. The conflict is between those who see the Bible as being the literal word of God and those who cant see a a whole document coming down through he ages and languages and still be the literal word of God. If you want to believe that you should read it in the original language and understand what it literally means. Even the Great Masonic Pastors like Newton and Peal didn't think the Bible was completely literal. As long as theology is discussed on this forum, this debate will go on and on.

"In my book different doesn't mean wrong. Judge not." Blake you choose to be offended by that? Really? 

Christians, you just can't feed them to the lions anymore!


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## Sirius (Dec 21, 2009)

RedTemplar said:


> Gnostic means to know. So, if we know, what is faith for?


 
The terms can  actually almost be synonymous. Gnosis is more of a process whereas faith is a constant. There is some hair splitting to be done. Regardless, there is no process without faith. So faith is essential.


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## Sirius (Dec 21, 2009)

LRG said:


> "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
> I love this- The Truth


 
I did notice the key word missing is 'only'. As in only truth. Leaving the possibility of multiple ,and equal, truths.


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## JTM (Dec 21, 2009)

if you ignore the second sentence, sure.


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## Sirius (Dec 21, 2009)

JTM said:


> if you ignore the second sentence, sure.


 
Yes, he's saying his teachings get you closer to God. But the path that Jesus taught wasn't new.


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## JTM (Dec 21, 2009)

i dunno, i guess i'm not totally convinced of this, but 



> No one comes to the Father except through me.



seems pretty straight forward...


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## Sirius (Dec 21, 2009)

And that perfectly good for you. The larger point was this, Christianity doesn't have the market cornered on truth. It's not OK, the think you're religion makes you just a little bit better than everyone else. Thats the problem Urban II ran into. He said it was better so go on a Crusade, you'll be OK because your faith is better than the infidels.


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## JTM (Dec 21, 2009)

I think that believing what Ubran did wrong is twist the point of the bible into a convenient way until it resembled in no way the original meaning,

but i think what blake is saying, that to believe Christianity at all, you must also believe that Christianity does have the market cornered.

Can you believe the statement about "no way except through me" is correct while still having a fulfilling relationship with Christ?  I believe the easy, straight-forward answer is no, you can't.

On a personal level, I've taken the even easier route and just ignored the question altogether.


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## rhitland (Dec 21, 2009)

Before I post on the subject I wanted to address the beating of a dead horse.  I believe none of us are trying to defeat Christianity or any religion I feel we are trying to learn.  Although the way this is sometimes articulated can sound brass every single one of us are looking for that next piece of wisdom that will change our lives and if we cannot discuss how we feel so others can express their wisdom on the subject to learn from than we are done for.  We have to also realize Christianity is about all we know in the USA so if an attack goes toward organized religion our examples are usually based from what we have experienced and know of.  Further more you also have to realize attacking something is a reaction of misunderstanding and is human nature which we cannot punish or get upset about this is when our whispering in the ear comes into play.  Funny thing is though most will not listen to the whisper until the lesson hits them in the face and draws spiritual blood.  Allot of how I look at things in life have changed due to this site and I hope we can forgive each other of our ignorances and downfalls to truly aid each other in our reformations.


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## TCShelton (Dec 21, 2009)

rhitland said:


> Before I post on the subject I wanted to address the beating of a dead horse.  I believe none of us are trying to defeat Christianity or any religion I feel we are trying to learn.  Although the way this is sometimes articulated can sound brass every single one of us are looking for that next piece of wisdom that will change our lives and if we cannot discuss how we feel so others can express their wisdom on the subject to learn from than we are done for.  We have to also realize Christianity is about all we know in the USA so if an attack goes toward organized religion our examples are usually based from what we have experienced and know of.  Further more you also have to realize attacking something is a reaction of misunderstanding and is human nature which we cannot punish or get upset about this is when our whispering in the ear comes into play.  Funny thing is though most will not listen to the whisper until the lesson hits them in the face and draws spiritual blood.  Allot of how I look at things in life have changed due to this site and I hope we can forgive each other of our ignorances and downfalls to truly aid each other in our reformations.



+1.


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## Sirius (Dec 21, 2009)

JTM said:


> but i think what blake is saying, that to believe Christianity at all, you must also believe that Christianity does have the market cornered.


 
Well this brakes down to  theological interpretation, which I'm way to sober for. Suffices to say, I have a completely fulfilling relationship with Christ, without believing Christianity has all truth. 




Excellent post, Rhit.


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## TCShelton (Dec 21, 2009)

Sirius said:


> Suffices to say, I have a completely fulfilling relationship with Christ.


 
We need an applauding emoticon. j/k


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## JTM (Dec 21, 2009)

Sirius said:


> Well this brakes down to  theological interpretation, which I'm way to sober for. Suffices to say, I have a completely fulfilling relationship with Christ, without believing Christianity has all truth.


it's along the lines of jesus saying abraham knew him to the jews.  they couldn't believe in one part but not the other.  there are whole "sermon-series" on that one.


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## Sirius (Dec 21, 2009)

TCShelton said:


> We need an applauding emoticon. j/k


 
with Elvis accent, "thank you, thank you very much".


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## Nate Riley (Dec 21, 2009)

blake said:


> What does John 14:6 mean to you?
> 
> "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
> 
> ...


 
I agree.


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