# Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Commandery?



## David Melear (Mar 12, 2011)

This is a question I have had for a long time, and I would like ask the members of this website their options on the topic?

Why if you are a Christian and a Mason, would you not want to join the Commandery?


----------



## Beathard (Mar 12, 2011)

Many join and think it is dull. Many join and believe that the work takes to much dedication. These members go back to the lodge and recruit members for the Scottish rite. My issue is distance. A 45-50 mile drive to a commandery meeting is out of the question with today's gas prices. I have been a commandery member for 21 years, but have found no reason to attend.


----------



## dpteskeys (Mar 12, 2011)

I believe we should be pinning every new master mason with a Masonic pin on behalf of the York Rite bodies, letting them know that we are here for them. Just like the Scottish Rite does


----------



## JohnnyFlotsam (Mar 12, 2011)

David Melear said:


> This is a question I have had for a long time, and I would like ask the members of this website their options on the topic?
> 
> Why if you are a Christian and a Mason, would you not want to join the Commandery?


 A better question might be, what has the Commandery to offer Christian Masons, particularly those of the target demographic? In other words, the same question that Freemasonry in general should be asking of itself, albeit without the sectarian qualification. As Brother Beathard observes, there need to be a reasons (and at least one good one for those who must travel any distance) to join and attend.


----------



## MikeMay (Mar 12, 2011)

I'm a Christian and a Mason...I plan to petition in the near future, but until recently, I had neither the desire (no one really talks about what it does or why it is beneficial) or the inclination to do so.   I don't think anyone needs to be a "salesman" about it, but it would be nice to have some discussions as to how it benefits a Master Mason in his Masonic Journey.  That's just my two cents...


----------



## Bill Hosler (Mar 12, 2011)

In my personal opinion there aren't many of the younger Brethren who want to sink a couple of grand into a civil war uniform and a funny hat and spend their off hours learning to march. 

It may be some fellows cup of tea but it isn't mine. I have heard many other brethren who have expressed the same sentiment.


----------



## Traveling Man (Mar 12, 2011)

I found that the very precept in conflict with the basic idea of "Freemasonry". Maybe the very idea that Commandery is perceived as exclusionary? Or that the attrition rate makes this feat almost impossible? Or how about the fact that very few memorize the ritual; and “reads them", how sad!


----------



## dpteskeys (Mar 12, 2011)

I really like wearing my Mexican General hat,,,,, LOL


----------



## JohnnyFlotsam (Mar 13, 2011)

Traveling Man said:


> I found that the very precept in conflict with the basic idea of "Freemasonry". Maybe the very idea that Commandery is perceived as exclusionary?


 
Perhaps the "exclusionary" nature of Commandery is a factor, but I have never heard any Christian Brother even hit at such. On the other hand, I have heard many of them make the same comments that Brother Hosler has. As a path to actually advance one's understanding and involvement _in Freemasonry_, it is frequently a dead end. 

I have the same complaint about the Scottish Rite though my experience was limited to one small Valley, it left me frustrated and, ultimately, disinterested. The entire focus of the Valley was the operation of it's Rite Care operation, a laudable activity, without question, but there was no interest, and I mean absolutely none, in exploring the wonderful lessons that are a part of that rite.


----------



## Traveling Man (Mar 13, 2011)

What I find abhorrent is the same prerequisite as found in the Swedish Rite; anything that divides us as a band of brothers is not in any way fruitful. It may become evident that these dependant bodies (notice, I said: dependant  not appendant bodies) will hurt in their futures from lack of action in the past; they ignored the loss of membership from their seed bodies, but were there when you were raised etc. (this includes the shrine). The only exception may be those red lodges…


----------



## Bill Hosler (Mar 13, 2011)

I have always been lead to believe that the Commandery doesn't require a Sir Knight to be a Christian but be willing to "raise his sword in defense of the Christian religion". 

I know several Jewish Masons who are in the Knights Templar and nothing has ever been said about their religious views


----------



## relapse98 (Mar 13, 2011)

I just don't currently have the time. I'm usually at the lodge on Tuesdays, some scout function or another on Thursday's and some Saturday's. I'm also on my hoa board which meets sporadically and church trustees once a month. Maybe when my kids are in college in 10 years. I don't have anymore time to spread around.


----------



## Traveling Man (Mar 13, 2011)

> I have always been lead to believe that the Commandery doesn't require a Sir Knight to be a Christian but be willing to "raise his sword in defense of the Christian religion".
> 
> I know several Jewish Masons who are in the Knights Templar and nothing has ever been said about their religious views.



While that may be true to your observations; while I was in the Commandery Iâ€™ve witnessed some of the most religious bigotry that Iâ€™ve seen in my life, that was the main reason I dropped out.  One would think that a Sir Knight should be willing to raise his sword in the defence of the Jewish faith also? After all what were the crusades really about?


----------



## Bill Hosler (Mar 13, 2011)

Traveling Man said:
			
		

> While that may be true to your observations; while I was in the Commandery Ive witnessed some of the most religious bigotry that Ive seen in my life, that was the main reason I dropped out.  One would think that a Sir Knight should be willing to raise his sword in the defence of the Jewish faith also? After all what were the crusades really about?



I totally agree Brother. I left the York Rite for reasons somewhat like yours.  I was the sitting Emmient Commander when I left. 

Another thing that angered me was my daughter was going blind and needed an eye operation. I talked to the KT eye foundation about help so she could get they operation. We were refused because she Is a British national. The KTEF will only help American citizens. Even though I am a citizen and a Brother of the same fraternity they refused.  They cared more about national origin than a little girl going blind.


----------



## Ol Kev (Mar 13, 2011)

I have read both of the recent threads regarding the Commandery that were started by the Grand Commander in Texas.  As an EA, I am both intrigued and startled at the responses in each thread. Before I petitioned, I researched Freemasonry in pretty good detail and I thought future participation in the York Rite would be a no brainer. However, if I were eligible at this point in time, to become a Knight Templar would be cost prohibitive. The York Rite here in this area is not near as strong as the Scottish Rite for reasons I have not be able to figure out, but at this point in time I must concentrate on my EA proficiency . . . 

I am looking forward however to more responses in these two threads.


----------



## Ol Kev (Mar 13, 2011)

I have read both threads started by the Grand Commander of Texas and must say that I was both intrigued and startled by the responses in those threads. I am an EA working on my proficiency work but, before I turned in my petition I researched Freemasonry pretty thoroughly and thought that when the time was right, the York Rite would be a no brainer. Unfortunately, the following in this area is nowhere near as strong as the Scottish Rite for reasons I have yet to figure out. If I were eligible at this point in time, costs would be too prohibitive. 

For now, I must return to my EA proficiency work but I look forward to more responses in those two threads.


----------



## Traveling Man (Mar 13, 2011)

Ol Kev said:


> I have read both threads started by the Grand Commander of Texas and must say that I was both intrigued and startled by the responses in those threads. I am an EA working on my proficiency work but, before I turned in my petition I researched Freemasonry pretty thoroughly and thought that when the time was right, the York Rite would be a no brainer. Unfortunately, the following in this area is nowhere near as strong as the Scottish Rite for reasons I have yet to figure out. If I were eligible at this point in time, costs would be too prohibitive.
> 
> For now, I must return to my EA proficiency work but I look forward to more responses in those two threads.



Please keep in mind, "your actual mileage may vary", that is to say Iâ€™m not disparaging the institution, some individuals experiences are quite different than others.  While some may have just a local view of our institution there are others that have been â€œoff the farmâ€ so to speak. My personal belief is that the York Rite as an institution is not what Freemasonry is about; specifically the group where I used to be a member. Thatâ€™s not to say the others may be completely different, of this Iâ€™m sure. Whilst this may be some others cup of tea, itâ€™s not mine. I would not judge all of the York Rite bodies by what you read here. I know I will never become a member of any appendant body that requires I be a York Rite Mason. Maybe a Mark Mason or a Mark Mariner but thatâ€™s as far as I will go, probably in my whole Masonic career (because of it). But like I said that choice is my personal one as Iâ€™ve explained. I would not recommend you follow my path for the reasons I gave for the choice is yours and yours alone. I would however highly recommend that you follow through on you path to enlightenment. I think your blue lodge needs your attention as much as you can give of it. Travel on worthy brother, travel on.

York Rite having nothing to do with York; nor Scottish Rite having nothing to do with Scotland! WoW!

Ps. The Scottish Rite has always been the larger body of these two organisations.

  Dryfoos Letters on Freemasonry at MIT


----------



## JohnnyFlotsam (Mar 14, 2011)

Traveling Man said:


> What I find abhorrent is the same prerequisite as found in the Swedish Rite; anything that divides us as a band of brothers is not in any way fruitful. It may become evident that these dependant bodies (notice, I said: dependant  not appendant bodies) will hurt in their futures from lack of action in the past; they ignored the loss of membership from their seed bodies, but were there when you were raised etc. (this includes the shrine). The only exception may be those red lodgesâ€¦


 
Meh...
I agree that the idea of an exclusionary qualification such as "Christians only" is hardly Masonic, but I don't lose any sleep over it. My Brothers who are members of the Commandery are no more "Masons" than I am, so I don't begrudge them having whatever rules they want re. membership. Truly, whatever my Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu, or Wiccan Brethren want to do together to celebrate/examine their common beliefs in a Masonic context is probably something I would support, as long as it doesn't prevent all of our Brethren from enjoying the full range of what Freemasonry proper has to offer.


----------



## David Melear (Mar 19, 2011)

Ol Kev said:


> I have read both threads started by the Grand Commander of Texas and must say that I was both intrigued and startled by the responses in those threads. I am an EA working on my proficiency work but, before I turned in my petition I researched Freemasonry pretty thoroughly and thought that when the time was right, the York Rite would be a no brainer. Unfortunately, the following in this area is nowhere near as strong as the Scottish Rite for reasons I have yet to figure out. If I were eligible at this point in time, costs would be too prohibitive.
> 
> For now, I must return to my EA proficiency work but I look forward to more responses in those two threads.


 
I am a member of Lubbock Scottish Rite and have been for a very long time.  Just one thing to remember, the Lubbock Scottish Rite valley is very large so you have members from Midland/Odessa area, not sure where is officially ends, to the top and the Texas Panhandle.  Lubbock York Rite is mostly made up for masons from the Lubbock area.  This may be the reason it appears to stronger.  Many of those members are also York Rite and we discuss both organizations when we are together.

---------- Post added at 08:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 AM ----------




Bill Hosler said:


> I have always been lead to believe that the Commandery doesn't require a Sir Knight to be a Christian but be willing to "raise his sword in defense of the Christian religion".
> 
> I know several Jewish Masons who are in the Knights Templar and nothing has ever been said about their religious views


 
You are correct about the Order of the Temple which is the final degree of the Commandery.  However, one of the earlier Orders forces you to answer a question that many non-Christians might be unwilling to answer.  I work with several members who have roots in both the Christian and Jewish Religions, and no one has ever made any negative statements about them.  I my option, if a person is willing to agree to the basic tenants of the organization, either York, Scottish, or Shrine, then they should be allowed to join.
In my Commandery after the Order are completed, religions is never brought up again.

---------- Post added at 08:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 AM ----------




Traveling Man said:


> York Rite having nothing to do with York; nor Scottish Rite having nothing to do with Scotland! WoW!
> 
> Ps. The Scottish Rite has always been the larger body of these two organisations.


 
In the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite, we have a program called the Master Craftsman.  I would recommend if you have access to it that you would take the exams and complete the course.  It explains some of the degrees very well, but does talk about the origin of the Scottish Rite and touches on the origin of the York Rite briefly.  

The Scottish Rite earned its name because of the degree it started with were called Scottish High Masons Degree.  The rite itself began in France, but was organized into what we know today in the United States.  That is why you will hear the Southern Jurisdiction referred to as the Mother Council of the world.  Of course the book and exam were published by the Southern Jurisdiction so they can say whatever they want to.  However, I have read that in other book as well.

The York Rite was organized in the city of York in England, and later took its name from that city.


----------



## Traveling Man (Mar 19, 2011)

> In the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite, we have a program called the Master Craftsman.  I would recommend if you have access to it that you would take the exams and complete the course.  It explains some of the degrees very well, but does talk about the origin of the Scottish Rite and touches on the origin of the York Rite briefly.
> 
> The Scottish Rite earned its name because of the degree it started with were called Scottish High Masons Degree.  The rite itself began in France, but was organized into what we know today in the United States.  That is why you will hear the Southern Jurisdiction referred to as the Mother Council of the world.  Of course the book and exam were published by the Southern Jurisdiction so they can say whatever they want to.  However, I have read that in other book as well.
> 
> The York Rite was organized in the city of York in England, and later took its name from that city.



Hum; not that I need “program” to introduce me to Masonic history…

The name "York Rite" is an inexcusable blunder; at least an unfortunate mistake. There never was a York Rite. It is unnecessary to enter upon any discussion as to the claims of the York Grand Lodge or a York system of Freemasonry as the question has been settled beyond controversy. The name "York Rite" is an inheritance from the forefathers of Freemasonry in the United States, who were more skilled in ritual tinkering than in the history of Freemasonry. This becomes especially apparent, when one remembers that the ephemeral Grand Lodge of York never chartered a single Lodge in America. The Freemasonry of the United States began under the Provincial Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, then under the Grand Lodge of England (Moderns) with Price as Grand Master. The Grand Lodge of England (Ancients) and the Grand Lodge of Scotland chartered Lodges in America, and it is reasonably possible, that before the union of the two Grand Lodges of England, the Royal Arch and the Masonic Orders of Christian Knighthood were conferred in this Country by the Military Lodges connected with the Irish Regiments stationed in the Colonies. To sum it all up, our so-called York Rite is the English Rite dressed in more fantastic clothing.

The name "York Rite" should be eliminated and the name English Rite substituted. In view of the foregoing facts as to what constitute a Rite, we in the United States are practicing or have formulated an American system of the English Rite; not an American Rite as it is frequently erroneously called, but a system of Degrees of the English Rite; it should be known as the English Rite, or Anglo-Saxon Rite.

-Source: The Builder - November 1916

So let me re quote myself:



> York Rite having nothing to do with York; nor Scottish Rite having nothing to do with Scotland!


----------



## Bro.BruceBenjamin (Mar 19, 2011)

How do you get anyone to do anything? Short answer you recruit them and better yet you feed them (with knowledge). "One plants the seed, one waters the seed...


----------



## chadwalker67 (Jun 30, 2011)

Why is it hard to get Masons to join the Commandery?  Well, it shouldn't especially since so many of the newer Masons come in very intrigued at the possible connection between our Fraternity and the Knights Templar of the Crusades.  The Order of the Temple is a very beautiful "degree" but once a new Sir Knight is created in order to be active they are required to shell out alot of money.  The first expense is a black suit, then the chapeau, then the ornate sword and when it's all said and done you're wearing an outfit that bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the Knights Templar of old.  Another possible turn-off is all of the drill, personally I had enough drill and marching during my 20 year military career.  If what I've written sounds harsh I do apologize because that isn't my intention I am very proud to be a Sir Knight.


----------



## MikeMay (Jun 30, 2011)

Bro.BruceBenjamin said:


> "One plants the seed, one waters the seed...




Amen to that!


----------



## Benton (Jun 30, 2011)

chadwalker67 said:


> The first expense is a black suit, then the chapeau, then the ornate sword and when it's all said and done you're wearing an outfit that bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the Knights Templar of old.  Another possible turn-off is all of the drill, personally I had enough drill and marching during my 20 year military career.  If what I've written sounds harsh I do apologize because that isn't my intention I am very proud to be a Sir Knight.



Regarding expenses, some of those can be mitigated. There's a sword you can buy on ebay that they sell for something like $40.00 that most sir knights use around here. Cheap. And I know many commanderies have their own chapeaus. I borrow from the commandery, as I can't afford my own just yet. Perhaps your commadery could look into investing in the same?

Regarding the drill, that's probably just a taste thing. Many of the guys in our commandery really enjoy the drilling, and the drill time is a huge past time for them. I'm kind of ambivalent myself, but I know for many, if that went away, the organization would lose something for them.


----------



## JBD (Jun 30, 2011)

From reading these responses I think we can identify some common denominator across the reasons.  We do, as a group, a poor job of communicating what the Commandery is all about.  It is not divisive, it is not just drilling, it is not just dressing up, it is not about any of that, yet it is about all of that.  Just as there are people who don't care for the Shrine or Grotto or Scottish Rite there are those who do not, will not, cannot enjoy Commandery.  Those who are Christian AND enjoy the kinds of things Commandery work is, will love it.  No one I know of who has taken the Orders regrets taking them or do not think they are the best things in Masonry.  Why we can't get them there is because, for the most part, we don't ask. (THE "WE" in all of this is not universal, I just don't want to retype a disclaimer all the time) We don't show ourselves, the jackets are in bags on the way in, the Chapeaus are cased.  We do not go to Blue Lodges in Uniform, we do not recruit.  For the past 3 yrs at every raising in our Lodge I have been given time to address each new brother.  I have done so on behalf of all the YR bodies I belong to.  You have to follow up, just as no one knows what Masonry is when they join, no one really knows all the bodies until they are in for a while and many times the aggressive bird gets the worm so to speak, whichever body that may be.  As to the cost?  There are MANY MANY low cost options.  There are jackets for $100 or less, there are swords available all over, Chapeaus have changed a great deal in the past few years.  I paid a lot for mine but newer ones are available.

Bottom line?  It is sales 101, you will never get the order unless you ask for the order


----------



## MikeMay (Jun 30, 2011)

JBD said:


> For the past 3 yrs at every raising in our Lodge I have been given time to address each new brother. I have done so on behalf of all the YR bodies I belong to. You have to follow up, just as no one knows what Masonry is when they join, no one really knows all the bodies until they are in for a while




That's a great point...some men have no idea what lies beyond until someone shows them.  I would have loved it if someone had actually said something more than "this is what you can do now that you're raised".  It would have been nice if someone had said this is what each body is, this is what they do, this is the charity work they support, etc...I might have gotten interested in some of the other bodies sooner.


----------



## Frater Cliff Porter (Jun 30, 2011)

You can see a historical shift in the work of the commanderies from esoteric orders to marching groups.  I think it deteriorated from there.  When the end of the era of Fraternalism drew to a close, many groups were forced to ask "What are we and what are we doing."  In many ways the entire York Rite lacked an answer.  Many commanderies are nothing more than parade groups, with no more parades to march in.

There is true beauty in the ritual and the RA can claim some wonderful antiquity.  The degrees are worthy.  But as the York has clamored to save itself...what has it done...more, and more and more degrees, orders, etc. as evidenced by AMD week.

I think a return to the Blue Lodge is in order.  When Masons are practicing Masonry in blue lodge....the other orders are nice, but quite frankly, unnecessary.


----------



## David Melear (Jul 6, 2011)

Cliff,

I have had this answer written for several days and have been debating on whether or not to post it, knowing that the second it is out there I will be opening myself up to members who will reticule me for having stated it in this manner.  However I believe that ever opinion is important when seeking more knowledge and light about our fraternity, therefore I will post my opinion of how these organizations work together. This opinion has been formed through several years of experience working with my Grand Lodge.  Your Grand Lodge may work differently, even though I have attended several of your Grand Sessions and because of my position in Texas have been invited to meetings where I have hear very similar discussions.

Here is my answer to your post

I would disagree with you by agreeing, but I think I will add the Blue Lodge to your list.  To me the York Rite and Blue Lodge are connected very closely, if all you think the Commandery does is march in parades, then maybe all the Blue Lodge does is just memorize a few words and say youâ€™re a member.  I would add that maybe the Blue Lodge is frankly unnecessary to agree with you.

I however, believe that the motto â€œwe take good men and make them betterâ€, should be we take good men and make them leaders.  The Lodge cannot do this by itself.  That is why the York Rite, Scottish Rite and Shrine work with the lodge to help this process.  As I see it, and this is an example, you, being some random brother, get appointed by a friend to be the Junior Deacon and then move through the line becoming Worshipful Master, by itself does nothing to make you a leader.  Some of you may laugh, but back before â€œthe era of Fraternalism drew to a closeâ€ the founders of our Fraternity created the structures of these organizations to help develop young men into leaders, which we still need today.  Through the years, because most of the kind of men we need are being pulled into other organizations, or just do not have time because of work to dedicate themselves to our fraternity, we have started infighting between each of these organization, including the blue lodge, to discredit the others and attract what little good membership we have, and coupled with the fact that members like yourself take negative views of an organization and decide to abandon it rather than work to make it better and follow the process to become a great leader.
Therefore, if all Masons do is memorize a few words and sit around in the lodge and talk about how intelligent they are for being letter perfect in conferring a degree on a new member while the organization and the world is falling apart around them, then none of our organizations are necessary.

However, if you believe as I do that we are still needed to train the future leaders for all of us, then it is time to quit discrediting one organization because you like the other better and jump in with both feet and correct the problems you see, and be the leader I think you should be!  Maybe it is up to you to make these organizations what they should be, instead of what they are.  Did you ever think that maybe you are being tested by people much higher in the Fraternity to see what you can do to make it better?


----------



## KFerguson84 (Jul 8, 2011)

David Melear said:
			
		

> I would disagree with you by agreeing, but I think I will add the Blue Lodge to your list.  To me the York Rite and Blue Lodge are connected very closely, if all you think the Commandery does is march in parades, then maybe all the Blue Lodge does is just memorize a few words and say youre a member.  I would add that maybe the Blue Lodge is frankly unnecessary to agree with you.



Bro. David,
I understand your defense of the Commanderies but to say that the Blue Lodges are unnecessary is quite extreme. If it wasn't for the blue lodge, there would be no candidates for the appendant bodies. 

And to Bro. Cliff's point, I believe a return to traditional practice in the Blue Lodge is necessary. In this era of One Day Classes, there is nothing more important to the Fraternity as a whole than the Blue Lodge. It is the essence of our Fraternity. The problem is that Brothers look for more light in appendant bodies without completely absorbing the teachings of Blue Lodge. There is much more than memorizing words. It is about understanding these words from an esoteric standpoint, applying them to ourselves internally, then using our trowels to spread these teachings to our Brothers traveling their path so we can build a temple together. If Brothers get their Master Mason degree and move right on to appendant bodies, they are not providing themselves the opportunity to do so. An by us encouraging  Brothers to join appendant bodies without mastery of the Craft, we are taking away the importance of the Blue Lodge degrees, of which there is nothing higher or of any more importance than the Master Mason degree. 

A renewed interest in Craft Masonry is essential to this Fraternity. An interest in appendant bodies over Blue Lodge will not cause Freemasonry to prosper into the future. The tail cannot wag the dog. For some reason, Brothers feel they will get "what they are really looking for" in the appendant bodies when they simply failed to grasp it in the Blue Lodge. 

I would suggest reading Worshipful Brother Andrew Hammer's "Observing The Craft". It is a call to arms for the Brothers of our ancient and honorable Fraternity to focus on what makes us "Ancient" and "Honorable", and there is nothing more fitting of those two adjectives than Craft Freemasonry, with the Holy Royal Arch, as was intended. 

I mean no disrespect to the Brothers that are members of any appendant bodies as I am also a member of some as well, but none hold a place in my heart like the Craft degrees.

Kyle Ferguson, FGCR


----------



## David Melear (Jul 11, 2011)

Kyle,
As I had feared you missed my point, I am a very active blue lodge mason, I teach new masons, council new lodge officers, our officers must pass a leadership course before they can be elected and installed, and mentor our new members, which they must pass within a set period of time or they are suspended, my defense of the appendent bodies was not because I like them better, but to say that they help the blue lodge create better leaders.  Not as Cliff put it, to just march around in parades.  If you read the entire post I think you would see that I feel that the blue lodge is very important.  I cannot comment on your point â€œIn this era of One Day Classesâ€ Texas does not allow one day classes in the blue lodge, and most likely never will during my life time.

My point was that if that is all the York Rite bodies does, â€œhistorical shift in the work of the commanderies from esoteric orders to marching groupsâ€, with is not the case, then the blue lodge doesnâ€™t do much either.  Brother Cliffâ€™s point as I read it was that the appendent bodies were not needed â€œthe other orders are nice, but quite frankly, unnecessaryâ€.

I agree with you about the blue lodge, when I first joined 20 years ago, I to took a more spiritual approach which is a good way to start, but when I started going through our blue lodge line I was encouraged by my father and several other Past Grand Masters to join the York and Scottish Rites.  They told me that it would help develop me as a leader in the blue lodge which it did.  Their lines work like the blue lodge line does and would give me more opportunities to learn and develop leadership skills.  One quick note:  Texas is a big state and our lodges are spread out over long distances where I live.  It is very possible to be raised in a lodge and serve as Worshipful Master and never visit another lodge.  It was explained to me that if nothing else York rite and Scottish rite encouraged brothers from other lodges to visit and exchange ideas.  I understand in smaller states with very large populations that people may not understand that it might take 2 or 3 hours to drive to the next town with a lodge. 

One other thing to consider is that Brother Hammer also says in his book â€œAs the freedom of thought is undeniably at the core of our institution, it is only natural that free-thinking souls will find different paths within what is the same landscape of Masonry.â€  Just because you dislike the York Rite, doesnâ€™t mean that another person with a Christian belief should be allowed to decide for himself if he would like the organization.  This is what Brother Hammer was indicating with this statement in his book.

I hope you guys will keep to the great discussion, I am glade to see new interest in this thread.  I am still waiting to see if someone will be able to answer my question, each answer has been good, but you have to understand Texas to beable to answer the question correctly.


----------



## BroBill (Jul 12, 2011)

I belong to two Commanderies here in the San Antonio area- Boerne (Brownwood Commandery) and downtown San Antonio (San Antonio Commandery).  Both are long drives after a long work day- Boerne is a 30-mile trip each way, and San Antonio is a drive downtown during rush hour.  There is also quite a bit of work and many hours of practice needed to prepare for the annual inspections and for Field Days.  Finally, the cost of the uniform can be huge if you're in the line.  Full committment to Commandery requires a huge committment of time, travel, and $$.  This can be quite imposing for many brothers who are already committing time to Lodge and Chapter/Council.  Just my humble opinion....


----------



## Mac (Jul 13, 2011)

BroBill said:


> Finally, the cost of the uniform can be huge if you're in the line. Full committment to Commandery requires a huge committment of time, travel, and $$. This can be quite imposing for many brothers who are already committing time to Lodge and Chapter/Council. Just my humble opinion....



But it's also a valid opinion.  Thanks for the insight!


----------



## Michaelstedman81 (Aug 19, 2011)

Traveling Man said:
			
		

> I found that the very precept in conflict with the basic idea of "Freemasonry". Maybe the very idea that Commandery is perceived as exclusionary? Or that the attrition rate makes this feat almost impossible? Or how about the fact that very few memorize the ritual; and &ldquo;reads them", how sad!



What this I hear about an attrition rate? Is this referring to Brothers who try to go through the motions of joining the Commandery but get kicked out? Or is it referring to the same problem that is visible in a lot of other areas of Masonry? Meaning, Brothers join but then for some reason drop out for lack of interest or other reasons.


----------



## chancerobinson (Aug 27, 2011)

Brother Stedman,

In my very limited experience, very few Sir Knights "get kicked out."  Many who join, do not remain active for various reasons.  Although this thread started by Right Eminent Melear asks why do brothers not join the Commandery?, I think in the case of my Commandery we must ask ourselves why are we not retaining active members?  In many cases the answers are the same as that of a Blue Lodge which is struggling.  As I have heard said before we promise the candidates more light, but we often do not deliver on that promise and in a way we are cheating them.

The degrees and orders of the Chapter, Council, and Commandery are some of the most beautiful degrees you will experience, but I think we as a whole (Chapter, Council, Commandery) do a poor job of encouraging and facilitating the education of our members.  I think our success depends on providing more to our new members.  More than a copy of our ritual and a "dull meeting" to attend.  I believe that education is the key to future growth or decline in the York Rite.  I would love to see something similar to the Scottish Rite Master Craftsmen program offered to Companions and Sir Knights in the future.

Fraternally,

Chance Robinson


----------



## KSigMason (Nov 3, 2011)

I am in the midst of starting a more reformed education committee for my York Rite bodies. At every meeting I plan on talking about a particular body, and its history or the symbolism of the degrees.


----------



## KSigMason (Dec 30, 2011)

I'm not sure why it is so hard to get people to join.  I truly believe that the Commandery is the prestigious order in Masonry and that all Christian Masons should join the Templars.  I think that the Sir Knights need to be more public and invite more to the open functions such as Christmas/Easter Observances.  I know that the Sir Knights in NY held a Christmas Ball for all to attend.  I'm also trying to improve the education programs and mentoring within my YR as it is a lot of information for some.

I'd also say that a strong Social Order of the Beauceant (or general wife involvement) will help with the Commandery boost.


----------



## Ashlar (Dec 31, 2011)

We have no problems getting Masons to join the Commandery . We do not ask them to shell out money for "uniforms" because we wear mantles which my commandery furnishes . We voted down the uniforms and silly chapeaus for two reasons , we did not want to wear them and we do not want our new members to have to shell out all that money . We came to the conclusion , that we do not want to create Sir Knights and then tell them they have to go out and spend all this money to be active , it is not fair . We also supply the swords for those who do not want to buy them . Some buy their own , I for one do not when we have so many in our storage room .

In fine , if you become a Sir Knight in my Commandery , we will supply you with everything you need to be active . Just pay your dues , we will take care of everything else .


----------



## Ol Kev (Dec 31, 2011)

Ashlar said:


> We have no problems getting Masons to join the Commandery . We do not ask them to shell out money for "uniforms" because we wear mantles which my commandery furnishes . We voted down the uniforms and silly chapeaus for two reasons , we did not want to wear them and we do not want our new members to have to shell out all that money . We came to the conclusion , that we do not want to create Sir Knights and then tell them they have to go out and spend all this money to be active , it is not fair . We also supply the swords for those who do not want to buy them . Some buy their own , I for one do not when we have so many in our storage room .
> 
> In fine , if you become a Sir Knight in my Commandery , we will supply you with everything you need to be active . Just pay your dues , we will take care of everything else .



Where are you located?


----------



## Ashlar (Jan 1, 2012)

I am in Kentucky .


----------



## Ol Kev (Jan 1, 2012)

Ashlar said:


> I am in Kentucky .



Well, for me personally, I find that approach interesting and  very attractive. Especially in the economic times we face now. When you look  back at this whole thread, many have referred to the expenses involved in joining a Commandery.  Others have referred to the drills. Several comments regarding the  beauty of the degrees. So, it would seem that some of the issues keeping  people away don't have anything to do with the work. I don't know what  the constitution of the York Rite bodies is in Texas and whether or not they would  allow other regalia such as the mantles in place of the uniform and chapeaus on an individual  vote of the Commanderies.   

But for the sake of discussion, let's look at the points raised. If, for the survival of all of Freemasonry, it requires new members and  youth within our ranks, I would think that looking at some of this from a  marketing or image perspective may be helpful.

Purported image of Jacques DeMolay



American Knights Templar


Canadian Knights Templar
View attachment 2110 View attachment 2114

Which  one of these modern groups offers a more attractive image to other non York Rite brothers within Freemasonry?
Which one of these modern groups offers a more attractive image to _younger,_ other non York Rite brothers within Freemasonry?
Would other non York Rite brothers within Freemasonry see a connection of drill and ceremonies to the tenants of Freemasonry?

I have always heard positive comments regarding the York Rite degrees, especially the Knight Templar degree. 
To my knowledge you do not have to be Christian to be a Knight, only agree to defend the Christian faith. 
With this in mind, is a review and possible change of the image of the York Rite in order to make it more attractive?

Just thinking out loud here looking for comment.
(I couldn't get the Canadian images to stick but you can click on it to see the images.)


----------



## Ashlar (Jan 1, 2012)

Our Mantles look like the one DeMolay is wearing . I will be honest , if I had to wear those uniforms I would not be an active member of my Commandery , and if I can not (or will not) be active , I will not even join . Those uniforms are why the other Commandery in my district is struggling , the younger members can not afford those uniforms , and they refuse to bend so those young members are coming to our YR bodies . And I find the mantles better looking , I also refuse to wear that feathered chapeau . And if you want your own mantle , it is a little better than a $100 , so you are still better off than purchasing the entire uniform .

 I have taught our non-military members a few facing movements but we do not dwell on drilling , I have went through that in the service and I do not want to do that again , it is a bore . 

We have a lot of education on the real Templars , Freemasonry , famous Masons etc; etc; .


----------



## Ol Kev (Jan 1, 2012)

Ashlar said:


> Our Mantles look like the one DeMolay is wearing . I will be honest , if I had to wear those uniforms I would not be an active member of my Commandery , and if I can not (or will not) be active , I will not even join . Those uniforms are why the other Commandery in my district is struggling , the younger members can not afford those uniforms , and they refuse to bend so those young members are coming to our YR bodies . And I find the mantles better looking , I also refuse to wear that feathered chapeau . And if you want your own mantle , it is a little better than a $100 , so you are still better off than purchasing the entire uniform .
> 
> I have taught our non-military members a few facing movements but we do not dwell on drilling , I have went through that in the service and I do not want to do that again , it is a bore .
> 
> We have a lot of education on the real Templars , Freemasonry , famous Masons etc; etc; .



What I couldn't get to stick earlier

 

In looking at this, it seems more appropriate to me for Freemasonry. I like it.


----------



## Blake Bowden (Jan 2, 2012)

Ashlar said:


> We have no problems getting Masons to join the Commandery . We do not ask them to shell out money for "uniforms" because we wear mantles which my commandery furnishes . We voted down the uniforms and silly chapeaus for two reasons , we did not want to wear them and we do not want our new members to have to shell out all that money . We came to the conclusion , that we do not want to create Sir Knights and then tell them they have to go out and spend all this money to be active , it is not fair . We also supply the swords for those who do not want to buy them . Some buy their own , I for one do not when we have so many in our storage room .
> 
> In fine , if you become a Sir Knight in my Commandery , we will supply you with everything you need to be active . Just pay your dues , we will take care of everything else .



I REALLY like this idea and the Mantles look waaaaaaaaaaaaay better than black suits with bird feathers. I joined the Commandery a couple of years ago, but haven't been active due to a busy schedule and having to shell $$$$ for an outfit.


----------



## Ol Kev (Jan 2, 2012)

Blake Bowden said:


> I REALLY like this idea and the Mantles look waaaaaaaaaaaaay better than black suits with bird feathers. I joined the Commandery a couple of years ago, but haven't been active due to a busy schedule and having to shell $$$$ for an outfit.



GREAT! Let's vote! . . . 

Blake or anyone, do you know if the individual York Rite Commanderies in Texas have that option of the mantles or are the black suits and feathers mandatory? 

I too think the mantles look better and if Texas were to adopt the approach that apparently is in effect in Kentucky could really breathe some new life into the York rite. Around here anyway.


----------



## Benton (Jan 2, 2012)

My question: What would be worn underneath the mantle? Because the first time I see a mantle over blue jeans and a coors T-Shirt, I'm demitting. 

All kidding aside, though, one of the things the uniforms has done is keep the respect for the institution alive, to some extent or another. And (as a still relatively young person in freemasonry at 24), the mantles over casual dress would look... well, not like an organization I would want to be a part of. It would still need to be over some level of dress wear, in my opinion, to avoid looking asinine. 

I could probably live without the current chapeaus though. For price alone. Granted, we have a commandery set that is available, so new members can check one out for use. But not every commandery is so fortunate, and adopting more affordable headwear (as pictured above) would go a long way towards helping some of our members have a full uniform.


----------



## jwhoff (Jan 2, 2012)

Traveling Man said:


> I found that the very precept in conflict with the basic idea of "Freemasonry". Maybe the very idea that Commandery is perceived as exclusionary?



Well said Traveling Man.  Though Christian, I find it impossible to exclude my Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and Buddist brethren.  I'll leave any exclusions to the G.O.A.T. to decide.  As for me, I have sworn not to break the triangle beneath the compasses.


----------



## Ashlar (Jan 3, 2012)

Benton said:


> All kidding aside, though, one of the things the uniforms has done is keep the respect for the institution alive, to some extent or another. And (as a still relatively young person in freemasonry at 24), the mantles over casual dress would look... well, not like an organization I would want to be a part of. It would still need to be over some level of dress wear, in my opinion, to avoid looking asinine



We wear our mantles over black/dark business suits . And I think the Mantle over a suit looks smarter and more "knightly" than those uniforms .

We had some visiting Sir Knights show up in uniform for one of our Christmas Observances and the wife , not being used to seeing them because all she has seen is our mantles , asked me why the Salvation Army was attending our function . I nearly busted a gut laughing .


----------



## KSigMason (Jan 3, 2012)

Ashlar said:


> We do not ask them to shell out money for "uniforms"  because we wear mantles which my commandery furnishes.


That's  not a bad idea.  My Commandery supplies as much as they can as we do  have some chapeaus, some jackets, and plenty of swords, but that's not a  bad idea to change to the cap and mantle.



Ol Kev said:


> I  don't know what  the constitution of the York Rite bodies is in Texas  and whether or not they would  allow other regalia such as the mantles  in place of the uniform and chapeaus on an individual  vote of the  Commanderies.


This is from the Grand Encampment Constitution:



> Section  41(i): In lieu of the regulation Templar uniform, a Constituent  Commandery may, if their Grand Commandery approves, adopt the use of the  Cap and mantle as their official uniform. These can be worn for all  Templar occasions, provided that when appearing in public, the entire  Commandery MUST be dressed in like manner – either in Uniform or all in  Cap and mantle.


I couldn't find an online copy of the Texas  Grand Commandery's Constitution, but I know Idaho's Constitution says  something similar.



Ol Kev said:


> Which  one of these modern  groups offers a more attractive image to other non York Rite brothers  within Freemasonry?
> Which one of these modern groups offers a more attractive image to _younger,_ other non York Rite brothers within Freemasonry?
> Would other non York Rite brothers within Freemasonry see a connection of drill and ceremonies to the tenants of Freemasonry?


I  find the Jacket & Chapeau uniform to be handsome and in the  militaristic sense can look very...awesome, when worn right.  I think  though as we take the name Knights Templar in commemoration of the  Knights of old that wearing the cap and mantle is probably better.



Ol Kev said:


> I have always heard positive comments regarding the York Rite degrees, especially the Knight Templar degree.


The Order of the Temple is an amazing ceremony.



Ol Kev said:


> To my knowledge you do not have to be Christian to be a Knight, only agree to defend the Christian faith.


I know in Idaho at least you must be a Christian to join.


----------



## David Melear (Jan 6, 2012)

KSigMason said:


> I couldn't find an online copy of the Texas Grand Commandery's Constitution, but I know Idaho's Constitution says something similar.



Once the new format of our Constitution and Statutes is approved in April, it should appear on the Grand Commandery website.


This is how the Constitution and Statutes of the Grand Commandery Knights Templar of Texas addresses the Cap and Mantle.  I also added what is to be worn under the Mantle.
Art. 351. (G 41 & G 62).             Uniforms. 
The purchase of Knights Templar uniform by a petitioner for the Orders in this Grand Jurisdiction is optional with the petitioner. 
(d)  In lieu of the regulation uniform, a Constituent Commandery may provide and use the cap and mantle as their official uniform. The regulation uniform or cap and mantle may be worn for all Templar occasions, provided, however, that, when appearing in public, the entire Commandery shall be dressed in the same uniform, that is, all either in a regulation  uniform or in the cap and mantle uniform. The cap and mantle uniform is authorized for use and is as prescribed in Article 354.  Art. 353.            
Specifications for Texas Templar Full Dress Uniform. 
(b)	Trousers to be cut on U. Navy pattern, zipper fly.  Plain button, no cuffs, of same material as coat.   
(d)	Shirt to be white turndown collar.  
(e)	Tie to be black four-in-hand.   
(g)	Black shoes or black Wellington or black cowboy boots, and black hose; the trousers to be worn on the outside of the boot at all times. 
Art. 354.           Design and material for the Cap and Mantle Templar Uniform: The following is herein designated as proper design of the caps and mantles (ceremonial robes) now permitted as an alternative to the Uniform in the Opening and Closing of the Commandery and in the conferral of the Order of the Temple:  
A.	TEMPLAR MANTLE: In general, the mantle shall be of the style worn by Medieval Templars and by members of the Sovereign Great Priories.  It shall consist of white material, with hood, reaching to approximately twelve inches from the floor and ornamented as follows: 
1.	For members of the Order below the rank of Commander:
The mantle shall be of white; the hood to be lined with silky white material; the Passion Cross in bright red, nine inches in height, on the left breast; the mantle to tie closely around the neck with white cords with white tassels.
2.	For Commanders and Past Commanders:
The mantle shall have a single red ribbon, one inch wide, stitched one-half inch from the outer edge; the hood to be lined with a similar red material; the Passion Cross in red with gold rays, nine inches in height, on the left breast; the mantle to tie closely around the neck with red cords with red tassels. 
3.	For Grand Officers and Past Grand Officers entitled to permanent rank:
The mantle shall have the ribbon of a Past Commander and an additional red ribbon one-half inch wide, stitched one-half inch from said ribbon; the Templar Cross in red, nine inches in height, on the left breast; the mantle to tie closely around the neck with red cords and tassels. 
4.	For the Grand Commander:
The mantle shall have a single red ribbon, two inches wide, stitched one inch from the outer edge; the hood lined in red with a similar material; the Templar Cross in red, nine inches in height on the left breast; the mantle to tie closely around the neck with red cords and red tassels. 
5.	For Past Grand Commanders:
The mantle shall have a single purple ribbon, one and one-half inches wide, stitched three-quarters of an inch from the outer edge; the hood lined in purple with similar material; and the Templar Cross in purple material on the left breast, nine inches in height; the mantle to tie closely around the neck with purple cords and red tassels. 
B.         TEMPLAR CAP: The Templar cap shall follow the design and specifications of the style worn by the Sovereign Great Priories, three inches in depth and very slightly flared at the top.
1.     For all members of the Order below the rank of Past Grand Commander:
The cap shall be of bright red velvet (or silk) and the cross displayed on the front of the cap shall be appropriate to rank -- red Passion Cross for members below the rank of Commander; red Passion Cross with gold rays for Commanders and Past Commanders; and red Templar Cross for all Grand Officers and Past Grand Officers entitled to permanent rank. 

2.     For Past Grand Commanders:
The cap shall be of purple velvet (or silk) with purple Templar Cross. 

3.     For all Ranks:
The Cross shall be two inches high. 

C.         COMMANDERY BADGE: The distinctive badge of a Constituent Commandery may be worn on the right breast of the mantle.  The badge will be no less than five inches or more than eight inches high.  The badge of the Commandery shall be superimposed upon the Malta Cross, or the Malta Cross shall be incorporated within the Commandery badge.  The design shall be approved by the Grand Commandery Committee on Jewels and Uniforms.   No other ornamentation or Templar jewels or recognitions shall be worn on the mantle. 
D.         SWORD AND SCABBARD: The sword and scabbard shall conform to the regulations of the Grand Encampment. 
E.         SWORD SLING: The sword shall be suspended, when required to be worn, on a sling to be worn over the right shoulder, of black leather one and one-half inches wide, of tailored or adjustable length according to the height of the Sir Knight, to terminate in two straps with snaps to fasten to the two upper rings of the scabbard.


----------



## Ashlar (Jan 6, 2012)

And there it is , now you just need to talk the Sir Knights in your Commandery to switch to caps and mantles . It took us a couple of years to make the change because some of the old heads wanted to continue wearing uniforms  . We waited until we had enough younger , newer members to come in so we could out vote the older members .


----------



## Ol Kev (Jan 6, 2012)

This would, it would seem, open the door to some new possibilities.


----------



## David Melear (Jan 6, 2012)

Just a quick note before you call me an old man, I am 42 years old.

I hope you are right, in my experience it has not worked.  I am a member of 4 Commanderies, 2 wear class A uniforms, and 2 wear caps and mantles.  Two of the Commanderies are in small cities 100,000 + people, one wears the class A, and one wears the cap and mantles.  The one that wears the class A uniform is much more successful with younger people that the one that wears caps and mantles.  As a matter of fact in the Commandery that wears the caps and mantles the younger members are trying to get the older members to switch to the class A uniform.  This Commandery has had caps and mantles for over twenty years.  The other two Commanderies are in small towns neither are very successful, but the uniform has nothing to do with their problems.
Also in small Commanderies the uniform is not always important, I have inspected many people who have regular suites on instead of the uniform and I have not said a thing.  Most of the Grand Officers feel the same way.  
Before you start to say I don’t want to see change, please remember I like the cap and mantle and wear it at every meeting of the other two Commanderies.  I also voted to make it an official uniform.  
I guess what I am trying to say is that if the class A uniform with I bought for $150.00, I have suits more expensive than that, is too expensive, than why would you want to buy and cap and mantle with is around $200.00 or more, depending on the quality of the mantle.  I agree that the chapeau is dated, but when we voted to change the hat several years ago it was defeated, remember we need your help to make change too, if you will get involved it think you will see many of us are trying to work within the system to change it.
Please don't take this the wrong way, we need your help, you don’t have to wear a uniform to vote at Grand Commandery.


----------



## davidterrell80 (Jan 8, 2012)

I did join Chapter and Council in the Fort Worth area. When inquiring about the KT, about which I was truly interested, I was visited by a committee of five Knights, who told me that because of my religious affiliation (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)), I would probably "not be comfortable joining" their organization.

I complied and have not shed a tear. I have to admit that the expectations of many in Chapter and Council, and my wearying of making delicate excuses about not petitioning KT, led to my abandoning those meetings, as well.

David
PM Smithfield 455


----------



## Raymond Walters (Jan 8, 2012)

Traveling Man said:


> I found that the very precept in conflict with the basic idea of "Freemasonry". Maybe the very idea that Commandery is perceived as exclusionary?




You raise an interesting point. I can only respond as to why I, as an individual chose not to join Knights Templar. 

For me, an appendant organization that requires a petitioner to be of a particular religious faith seems contrary to Masonic principles regarding the Brotherhood of MAN. It has never made sense to me, and strange as it may sound, it still doesn't. Just my opinion on the topic...


----------



## vanderson78102 (Jan 10, 2012)

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it has been a matter of expense.  I just don't make that kind of money.  What with initiation fees, dues, and the uniform, I've been told it can get expensive fast.


----------



## Ol Kev (Jan 10, 2012)

raymondswalters said:


> You raise an interesting point. I can only respond as to why I, as an individual chose not to join Knights Templar.
> 
> For me, an appendant organization that requires a petitioner to be of a particular religious faith seems contrary to Masonic principles regarding the Brotherhood of MAN. It has never made sense to me, and strange as it may sound, it still doesn't. Just my opinion on the topic...


 
One minute I read that to be a Templar Knight one must_ *profess a belief* _in the Christian Religion. I suppose that pretty well means you have to be a Christian. Then I read that you must sign a declaration that he *acknowledges the Doctrine of the Holy and Undivided Trinity*. You can be Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim or whatever and acknowledge the existence of the doctrine. Still again, I read that it is open only to Royal Arch Masons who *promise to defend the Christian faith.* Here again, you can be Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, and be willing to defend the existence of the Christian faith much like the United States defends Israel and the existence of the Jewish faith without being a Jewish state.

So, which is it?


----------



## David Melear (Jan 10, 2012)

Ol Kev said:


> One minute I read that to be a Templar Knight one must_ *profess a belief* _in the Christian Religion. I suppose that pretty well means you have to be a Christian.  Then I read that you must sign a declaration that he *acknowledges the Doctrine of the Holy and Undivided Trinity*. You can be Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim or whatever and acknowledge the existence of the doctrine. Still again, I read that it is open only to Royal Arch Masons who *promise to defend the Christian faith.* Here again, you can be Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, and be willing to defend the existence of the Christian faith much like the United States defends Israel and the existence of the Jewish faith without being a Jewish state.
> 
> So, which is it?



The petition reads "that he is a firm believer in the Christian Religion", it also reads "promises to conform to the ancient usages and customs of the Order."  On the back of the petition is reads "and no Mason, who is a believer in the Christian religion, should be satisfied until he has received this, the capstone, of the York Rite."

There is nothing about the Holy and Undivided Trinity, it is the Royal Order of Scotland, which is sponsored by the Scottish Rite, that requires members to be a Trinitarian Christian by faith.

You do pledge to defend the Christian faith in the Order of the Temple.


----------



## Ol Kev (Jan 10, 2012)

Bro. David,

Thank you for the clarification. It would seem that the lengthy verbiage would indicate that you would have to be a Christian to receive the Templar Degree. I personally don't have a problem with it as it is clear up front but, I can see how others would given the tenants of the Blue Lodge which only requires a belief in a Supreme Being without specifics as to a particular faith. I would suppose it is because you are moving out of the Old Testament and embracing elements of the New Testament. 

Please correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation.


----------



## Ol Kev (Nov 4, 2012)

Ol Kev said:


> Well, for me personally, I find that approach interesting and  very attractive. Especially in the economic times we face now. When you look  back at this whole thread, many have referred to the expenses involved in joining a Commandery.  Others have referred to the drills. Several comments regarding the  beauty of the degrees. So, it would seem that some of the issues keeping  people away don't have anything to do with the work. I don't know what  the constitution of the York Rite bodies is in Texas and whether or not they would  allow other regalia such as the mantles in place of the uniform and chapeaus on an individual  vote of the Commanderies.
> 
> But for the sake of discussion, let's look at the points raised. If, for the survival of all of Freemasonry, it requires new members and  youth within our ranks, I would think that looking at some of this from a  marketing or image perspective may be helpful.
> 
> ...





vanderson78102 said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it has been a matter of expense.  I just don't make that kind of money.  What with initiation fees, dues, and the uniform, I've been told it can get expensive fast.



Just to update and perhaps resurrect the thread, I joined the York Rite this past summer and had the Order of the Temple conferred this past September. I offer the following observations:

Our York Rite Bodies where I live are perhaps somewhat unique in that the the membership is really getting up there. The Companion who conferred the my Mark Master degree was 93 years old and he did it from memory! He told me afterward that he became a York Rite mason in 1954. I told him that I could barely focus in 1954. Our  Prelate in the commandery is about to turn 90. These guys are still pretty frisky and know their work. However, they are ready to pass things along to those younger but at the same time they do not want to see their York Rite cease to exist. We have some issues to deal with regarding recruiting. If we were more active we could probably recruit more. However, since most of the guys are somewhat older, it is hard to be as "active" as some other commanderies. Amarillo to the north is pretty active in drill. I don't see that happening here for quite a while. The only marching I personally was ever exposed to was when I was a little kid and my mother told me to go to bed. When I said I didn't want to I heard "March!" Those skills don't seem to transfer over to what is needed in the commandery drill and ceremony. In essence, we need younger guys to breathe new life in the group. The new guys are hard to get interested as they seem to view the York Rite not doing anything and depending upon how young that person may be, they may have a difficult time with the older guys. But, we are working on it. (Me personally, I have a blast with those guys)

I have taken a slightly different view than what I previously posted regarding uniforms. The black six button uniforms are quite impressive especially in a group and when worn properly. I still have no love for nor do I posses a usable chapeau at this time; incredibly expensive for no more than you use it. The sword belts are not for everyone. They look great IF you have the proper build and are wearing them correctly. Otherwise they can assume varying degrees of disaster. I have taken a liking to the black uniform with the sword sling underneath the jacket and only the sword being visible along with the appropriate jewels. As one person stated in a letter to the editor in the September 2012 issue of the Knight Templar magazine, "Compared with the timeless quality and simplicity of the Masonic apron, the uniform seems very, very outdated. Iâ€™d especially ditch the chapeau. It costs hundreds of dollars, it looks like something from a Gilbert & Sullivan operetta, and itâ€™s uncomfortable." I can't argue the point. I understand that there has been talk of a white garrison cap as an option to perhaps replace the chapeau however, there doesn't seem to be enough interest or votes or whatever to make it happen. (Just to replace ostrich feathers alone is an outrageous expense. There is noting worse than wearing a chapeau that was passed on in a commandery with the felt wearing off and molting feathers.) I personally would advocate letting the Knights of Columbus press on with the chapeau and we move toward a more universally attractive and appealing look. If the object is to retain the military look then do so with a look that attracts rather than repels prospective members.

I much prefer this 




(Change the band and cross from gold to silver as needed. Perhaps the black band for Sir Knights, silver for officers and gold for the Commander and Past Commanders.)

To this





As far as the cap and mantle and mantle is concerned, it looks good. However, to look GREAT requires a really good quality mantle and the proper attire underneath which would mean a dark suit and tie. You are now back to the dark suit thing and really good quality mantles are not cheap either.  As someone mentioned somewhere else, doing the sword moves in a mantle can be problematic. 





We need to ask ourselves if the uniform policy and expense is keeping good people away from York Rite Masonry. We need to look at these issues from the point of view as to what is best for the York Rite as a whole. For example, if someone were offering resistance to changing the chapeau based on the fact that so many already have a chapeau, that is not viewing the issue from the point of view as to what is best for the York Rite. Tradition is not always a good argument either. The army needs rifles to fight but, do you want them to still use muskets since that is what they started fighting with in the Revolutionary War? Do you think a Knight Templar from the Crusades if given the choice would want to fight with a sword or modern rifle? What is boils down to is that we need to do a better job at balancing tradition and practicality. 

 We also need to take an observant look as to what is going on with the Scottish Rite in regard to the recent increase in dues and expenses. I predict that it will have a chilling effect on new membership and perhaps relegate it to only those that have the necessary disposable income and then later become the "country club" of Freemasonry. 

All of that being said, I don't want to sound as if I am complaining. I am simply offering observations based upon my initial perceptions and what I have seen since. After all, if the reason you became a York Rite mason was for the dress, you became one for the wrong reasons. If one is letting the dress keep you from becoming a York Rite Mason then maybe one is overlooking what it means to be a York Rite Mason. 

While I have some issues with the commandery uniform, I did not let it get in the way of becoming a York Rite Mason and specifically a Knight Templar. However, if we were to get up to speed with some of the issues facing each of us such as time well spent in our lodges, chapters, councils and commanderies while maintaining a reasonable minimal expense, perhaps we could see a greater growth in our fraternity.


----------



## SeeKer.mm (Nov 4, 2012)

Bill Hosler said:


> I totally agree Brother. I left the York Rite for reasons somewhat like yours.  I was the sitting Emmient Commander when I left.
> 
> Another thing that angered me was my daughter was going blind and needed an eye operation. I talked to the KT eye foundation about help so she could get they operation. We were refused because she Is a British national. The KTEF will only help American citizens. Even though I am a citizen and a Brother of the same fraternity they refused.  They cared more about national origin than a little girl going blind.



That's just messed up.  I hope all turned out for the best!


----------



## KSigMason (Nov 4, 2012)

Ol Kev said:


> These guys are still pretty frisky and know their work. However, they are ready to pass things along to those younger but at the same time they do not want to see their York Rite cease to exist.


This is occurring in my York Rite bodies.  Many of the older ones are "retiring" from performing, but still assist and mentor as much as they can.



> If we were more active we could probably recruit more.


Agreed.  I've been working on getting the York Rite more publicity in the Boise area by promoting events in Lodge and other meetings.



> In essence, we need younger guys to breathe new life in the group.


Agreed.



> As one person stated in a letter to the editor in the September 2012 issue of the Knight Templar magazine, "Compared with the timeless quality and simplicity of the Masonic apron, the uniform seems very, very outdated.


I agreed there needs to be some reform to our uniform.



> We need to ask ourselves if the uniform policy and expense is keeping good people away from York Rite Masonry.


To some, I'm sure it is keeping them away.



> We also need to take an observant look as to what is going on with the Scottish Rite in regard to the recent increase in dues and expenses.


My bodies just passed resolutions to pass an increase in all of our dues.  We changed it from a set amount to "Per Capita from the 3 Grand bodies + $25 for each body + any change in the cost of living index (may go up or down)" This year it comes to around $140 total.


----------



## Brent Heilman (Nov 5, 2012)

The reason I haven't joined the York Rite at this time are two-fold. First and foremost is expense. I want to go through the York Rite degrees but at this time just simply can't afford it. It isn't so much the degree fees and dues as it is the cost of buying a whole uniform vs. simply buying the prayer cap in the Scottish Rite. Also, the other problem is distance. The closest York Rite bodies are about a 45-minute drive away. If there was something closer I might be a bit more inclined to join. Which brings me to another question, which is once I joined what would it take to get a Chapter, Council, and Commandery established in my hometown? 

What I am planning on doing is taking it slow and going through it one degree at a time, maybe do the first degrees and then wait a while to move on. Suggestions in that area?


----------



## chrmc (Nov 5, 2012)

I'm a member of the York Rite, but not really active in it. When it comes to the Commandry specifically I must admit that the uniforms is part of what would hold me back. Not only because of the cost, but also just the looks of it. Without offending anyone I must say that I didn't join masonry to parade and do fancy uniforms. I like to dress nice in suits or a tux for stated meetings and special occasions, but uniforms like that doesn't do it for me.


----------



## crono782 (Nov 5, 2012)

I would think in a group, they uniforms do look nice, but in keeping with the Knights Templar context, the mantle and cap would make me feel more involved. Can't really give much more input than that, except the feathers look... overstated. hah


----------



## CajunTinMan (Nov 5, 2012)

raymondswalters said:


> You raise an interesting point. I can only respond as to why I, as an individual chose not to join Knights Templar.
> 
> For me, an appendant organization that requires a petitioner to be of a particular religious faith seems contrary to Masonic principles regarding the Brotherhood of MAN. It has never made sense to me, and strange as it may sound, it still doesn't. Just my opinion on the topic...


I must disagree. It is no more unMasonic then deciding which Great Light to display in which jurisdiction. What is wrong with Brothers further sharing the bonds of their common faith? We are all Brothers on the Masonic level. But we also share certain commonalities with other Brethren and I only see this as strengthening Masonry.


----------



## widows son (Dec 17, 2012)

I wish you didn't have to be Christian to join the commandery. There's a rich history and tradition attached to the Templar order that I'd love to be a part of.


----------



## Brother JC (Dec 17, 2012)

_Caveat: the opinions expressed here are one Freemason's view of one Masonic community. No member of any appendant body was harmed during these observations._


I think the problem here is basically twofold; The first is the religious requirement in very diverse community. We have three other VSLs available as needs be, and have used them all.

The other thing that hurts York recruitment here is the Big Pink Castle.

The Scottish Rite Temple is right next door, in your face every time you leave the lodge building. "Everyone" in lodge is an SR Mason, while many are York Rite (most of those SR also). The Temple has dormitories, so that during the reunions, everyone has a place to sleep. It also has an amazing, century-old theatre to perform the degrees upon. Hundreds attend.

York has local meetings, but conferrals are 60 miles down the road and over several weekends. They're held in a lodgeroom, and they don't fill that with members.

[rant]And I have to say it; I don't think the realtor jackets, or that uniform, help the cause. Depending on the jurisdiction, or even the individual, the uniforms can look like Salvationists, Civil War re-enactors, or Victorian zombies. What it *doesn't* look like is anything remotely resembling a tie to the Order of the Temple.[/rant]


----------



## JJones (Dec 18, 2012)

I agree, those coats are hideous and the templar uniforms are goofy and expensive.  I'd prefer to go cap n' mantle or black aprons.

Another big problem I see with Yorkrite is the number of degrees involved.  While there aren't as many degrees as their are in SR (if I understand correctly) there just doesn't seem to be much interest in getting enough people dedicated to learning it all.  Those one day festivals are few and far in between and the candidate doesn't actually learn anything during them either.


----------



## KSigMason (Dec 29, 2012)

JJones said:


> I agree, those coats are hideous and the templar uniforms are goofy and expensive.  I'd prefer to go cap n' mantle or black aprons.
> 
> Another big problem I see with Yorkrite is the number of degrees involved.  While there aren't as many degrees as their are in SR (if I understand correctly) there just doesn't seem to be much interest in getting enough people dedicated to learning it all.  Those one day festivals are few and far in between and the candidate doesn't actually learn anything during them either.


When worn properly they look impressive, but they can restrict movements. I do like the Cap and Mantle, but it makes sword work very difficult as I recently found out.

I'm not a fan of the festivals and until we can fully change it I'm implementing Days of Instruction to help new candidates better learn everything there is to know with the York Rite degrees.


----------



## Brother JC (Dec 30, 2012)

KSigMason said:


> I do like the Cap and Mantle, but it makes sword work very difficult as I recently found out.



Part of the problem there is that the sword-work comes from the same time as the uniforms; it's 19th-century military manual-of-arms, and does not reflect an ancient chivalric Order. If Commanderies worked entirely in surcoats, with a "knight's sword," there would be considerably less swishing about, and more attention to the purpose of the work.


----------



## Bro_Vick (Dec 30, 2012)

widows son said:


> I wish you didn't have to be Christian to join the commandery. There's a rich history and tradition attached to the Templar order that I'd love to be a part of.



The Commandery without Christ is pretty much the Order of Knight Masons, they also don't have the uniform requirements.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


----------



## Bro_Vick (Dec 30, 2012)

JJones said:


> I agree, those coats are hideous and the templar uniforms are goofy and expensive.  I'd prefer to go cap n' mantle or black aprons.
> 
> Another big problem I see with Yorkrite is the number of degrees involved.  While there aren't as many degrees as their are in SR (if I understand correctly) there just doesn't seem to be much interest in getting enough people dedicated to learning it all.  Those one day festivals are few and far in between and the candidate doesn't actually learn anything during them either.



San Antonio does do festival's but the local York Rite bodies do put on the individual degrees.  The issue comes down to time and commitment, the SR doesn't require the time as the York Rite does, and really, the three bodies of the York Rite (not including the blue lodge) mimic the blue lodge, both in form, and expected time invested.  A lot of men don't want that.  Typical example is a man will run off join the Scottish Rite, then years later will join the York Rite.  This is actually backwards as the Chapter and Council degrees finish out the story told to you in the blue lodge, and make the Master Mason's degree that much more special.  The other misconception is that to finish the York Rite one needs to be a member of the Commandery, which is false.  The orders of the Temple are not directly linked to the chapter and council.  The Order allows for a Christian mason to reflect on their Masonic journey as a Christian, this doesn't mean that to "finish" the York Rite you have to join the Commandery.

While I adore the Scottish Rite, and have found days of enjoyment in it, really to complete your journey as a Freemason, you need to go through Chapter and Council.  In my opinion, next to the Order of the Temple, the Royal Arch Degree is by far one of the most impressive in open membership Freemasonry.  A man is seriously robbing himself of a wonderful experience by not taking the degrees of the York Rite.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


----------



## Ol Kev (Dec 30, 2012)

JJones said:


> I agree, those coats are hideous and the templar uniforms are goofy and expensive.  I'd prefer to go cap n' mantle or black aprons.
> 
> Another big problem I see with Yorkrite is the number of degrees involved.  While there aren't as many degrees as their are in SR (if I understand correctly) there just doesn't seem to be much interest in getting enough people dedicated to learning it all.  Those one day festivals are few and far in between and the candidate doesn't actually learn anything during them either.





Bro_Vick said:


> While I adore the Scottish Rite, and have found  days of enjoyment in it, really to complete your journey as a Freemason,  *you need to go through Chapter and Council.  In my opinion,  next to the Order of the Temple, the Royal Arch Degree is by far one of  the most impressive in open membership Freemasonry.  A man is seriously  robbing himself of a wonderful experience by not taking the degrees of  the York Rite.
> *
> S&F,
> -Bro Vick



Perhaps we need to assign a mentor to each candidate much like we assign an instructor in the Blue Lodge. While there is not memory work, a briefing before the degree as to the intended lesson and a debriefing after the degree/order to discuss the lessons and how it manifested itself in the degree and any subtleties that may have been missed might be worthwhile.

For me personally, the Order of the Temple was second only to Baptism. It is a VERY impressive undertaking. 

  The York Rite of Freemasonry, which many take to include the three degrees of the Blue or Craft Lodge, involves a good deal of its symbolism with the Hiramic Legend and King Solomon’s Temple. The degrees are not conferred in the order in which the historical events they depict occurred.* HERE* is a list of the degrees in chronological order – which may help to put them into perspective and demonstrate the necessity of receiving all of them in order to obtain a complete picture.

I agree the uniforms need to be updated, revised, whatever but, that is proving to be a monumental undertaking. It seems the "old guard" for lack of a better term, is clinging to the previous traditions of the Order and has yet to acquiesce to the modern day obstacles and concerns of prospective members and that is keeping many from taking a second look at the Commandery. If we were to ditch the Naval style uniform, I would be inclined to go with a HiGH quality mantle and dark suit or aternatively black pants, tie, black vest and a baldric to carry the sword and that is it. Wear the medals on the suit or vest. Not sure about wearing them on the mantel. No cap; that belongs to the Scottish Rite, in my view. It would have the look of a modern "Knight".

I think one reason the Naval uniforms prevail is the drill & ceremony associated with the Knights Templar. I have mixed feelings about drill. However, I could get much more excited about doing what the *Levant Preceptory* does than drill. 

More Levant Preceptory
*Traveling Templar*


----------



## Mac (Jan 7, 2013)

So is the idea of the cap and mantle catching on?  I like the idea if it's carried out well!


----------



## Bro_Vick (Jan 11, 2013)

Mac said:


> So is the idea of the cap and mantle catching on?  I like the idea if it's carried out well!



In most Commandery's it is the standard uniform, some of the old guys will bring out the Navy/Pirate uniform.  The common belief is that one of the put-offs of joining the Commandery is the purchase of the uniform and of a sword.  So most Commandery's have their swords they lend out and moved to the Cap and Mantle which is far cheaper than the Navy/Pirate Uniform.

I will say that the sword work is tricky.  Being an active member of the Order of St. Thomas of Acon, the mantle and sword work can be tricky.  I nearly put a hole in my mantle the first time I attempted to draw my sword. 

S&F,
-Bro Vick


----------



## SSG_Morrison (Feb 25, 2013)

David Melear said:


> This is a question I have had for a long time, and I would like ask the members of this website their options on the topic?
> 
> Why if you are a Christian and a Mason, would you not want to join the Commandery?



The fact that the Fraternity has many more followers than real leaders is part of the issue, and then followed by disappointment when they do join the York Rite magnifies this. York Rite is supposed to be the surviving Order of The Knights Templar. The history books have built the reputation of the Great Secretive Order of the best of the best, but in actuality 90% of its members are ignorant to the history of The Order that they are members of, nor do they care to know. It's just one more block to check on the Masonic ladder and one more title to add.


----------



## Michael Hatley (Feb 25, 2013)

To answer the OP's question: because even though I was an Episcopalian altar boy (we call em acolytes) and was raised in the Christian tradition, many years within books have made me as much Deist as Christian.  And though I have been assured that my views do not preclude me from the order, I hesitate to do so.

Could I make an oath to defend Christianity above all other religions?  Yes, without reservation.  It was the first of the great books I read.

But for me it is the first among equals, not the only path. 

So I am cautious.

Whats more, I am already in Patrol at my local Shrine.  If I am to march, it will take a strong argument that my shoe leather is better spent in something other than the cause of crippled children.


----------



## jwhoff (Feb 25, 2013)

Thank you Brother Hatley for sharing your heart-felt reasoning on this subject.  You are truly a good mason and a good brother.  

Were that all masons be this in touch with the obligations they took and their moral view.


----------



## Michael Hatley (Feb 25, 2013)

Brother, thank you for your warm words. It makes me want very much to live up to your good opinion of me, sir.

I am certainly not ruling out the order though, and Ive been nudged numerous times.  Well see.


----------



## Brother JC (Feb 25, 2013)

Michael Hatley said:


> I was an Episcopalian altar boy (we call em acolytes)


Same here, and I was attending Roman Catholic school. By the time I was twelve I was pretty sure I could perform a Mass...


My hat's off to you, Brother Michael. You've picked your fight and stuck with it, instead of pushing on for another lapel pin. Though when you find the time and inclination, I'll admit that receiving the Orders can be a beautiful thing.


----------



## timgould (Feb 26, 2013)

I enjoy the Order a great deal. There are challenges though. But I find that over coming those challenges have there own reward. I think it is a matter of priority. I am a rather devote Christian. I LOVE that there is an area of freemasonry that folks like myself can really enjoy the parallels of freemasonry and Christianity. 
Our Commandry even takes time out of our Stated Meeting to instruct the other Knights in the Word of God. I like this. I think it goes hand in hand with the spirit of the Knights Templar. 
But there is an expense that I feel wards off many. There is a lot of learning that deters others. 

Mostly, I think folks don't joins for the same reason many good men don't join Masonry over all.... The question of "what will I get out of this?" can't be satisfied. Is it just another business meeting? Or is there some real growth and improvement? 

Every lodge, regardless of SR, YR, or Blue, needs to find some way to IMPROVE the men that come... every single time! Otherwise we are just spinning our tails and trying to catch the wind. IMHO


----------



## KSigMason (Feb 26, 2013)

SSG_Morrison said:


> The fact that the Fraternity has many more followers than real leaders is part of the issue, and then followed by disappointment when they do join the York Rite magnifies this. York Rite is supposed to be the surviving Order of The Knights Templar. The history books have built the reputation of the Great Secretive Order of the best of the best, but in actuality 90% of its members are ignorant to the history of The Order that they are members of, nor do they care to know. It's just one more block to check on the Masonic ladder and one more title to add.


Todd Creason highlighted an excerpt of Mackey's that I read in my Lodge: Reading Mason?

I am starting to implement Days of Instruction to help new members and help spread further knowledge on the Order. I am holding 3 Days this May: a day for the Royal Arch, a day for Cryptic Masonry, and a day for the Commandery. I will cover grips, signs, words, symbolism, history, and influences/evolution of each body. It won't be extremely in-depth, but I will get the ball rolling and share resources for them to further research.


----------



## drewpharos459 (Mar 1, 2013)

Great read bro. Thanks for sharing. 

Freemason Connect Premium App


----------



## curt (Mar 2, 2013)

I am very interested in joining. However, as a master mason, I have to admit great disappointment in what I have seen as far as participation by my Brothers. I can only assume, that it is the same in the commandery. I feel that masons should be dedicated to the betterment of mankind and constantly at work to help others. If I go to all of the effort to become a part of something, that I believe will be worthwhile and then it is not, it would distress me a great deal. As in the scriptures, we should be on fire or passionate about what we do.
	 		[h=2]So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Revelations 3:16 KJV[/h]It is very disappointing to want to be a part of something big, only to find out it is dull, boring and without passion.


----------



## Blake Bowden (Mar 2, 2013)

widows son said:


> I wish you didn't have to be Christian to join the commandery. There's a rich history and tradition attached to the Templar order that I'd love to be a part of.



It's been awhile, but from what I remember, you don't have to be a Christian to join the Commandery, only to defend the Faith. Could be wrong though. 

In response to the original post, I was extremely busy in Blue Lodge and the thought of having to dedicate even more time, not to mention allocating hundreds of dollars for an outfit was too much. The health of my Blue Lodge was my priority because without that, appendant bodies are dead.


----------



## Brother JC (Mar 6, 2013)

Blake Bowden said:


> It's been awhile, but from what I remember, you don't have to be a Christian to join the Commandery, only to defend the Faith. Could be wrong though.


You must also state a belief that the Saviour died on the Cross for the remission of sin. (And that is _before_ the Order of the Temple.)


----------



## chris289 (Mar 6, 2013)

Bro
I can only answer for my particular reason.
I wanted to dedicate my efforts to my blue lodge and give my all to it and go through the chairs.
 Not saying you can't do both just saying I couldnt. 
 But that is only my reason

Freemason Connect Premium App


----------



## dstivers120 (Mar 22, 2013)

I feel the expense of buying a sword, chapeau etc. Keeps a lot of brethren from joining.  I think the vendors are in collusion that keeps the prices high.

Freemason Connect Premium App


----------



## Bro_Vick (Mar 22, 2013)

dstivers120 said:


> I feel the expense of buying a sword, chapeau etc. Keeps a lot of brethren from joining.  I think the vendors are in collusion that keeps the prices high.
> 
> Freemason Connect Premium App



People keep saying this, but really you don't need a chapeau or a sword to be in Commandery, if the Commandery wants to open in full form the unit will provide you a temporary sword.

You only need the full garb if you are joining a Commandery that requires that as the uniform, and that is usually only for their officers.

You don't have to join a body and go directly in the line-up to enjoy it.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


----------



## Bill Hosler (Mar 22, 2013)

Bro_Vick said:


> People keep saying this, but really you don't need a chapeau or a sword to be in Commandery, if the Commandery wants to open in full form the unit will provide you a temporary sword.
> 
> You only need the full garb if you are joining a Commandery that requires that as the uniform, and that is usually only for their officers.
> 
> ...



If that is the case then the Commanderies aren't conveying that to the new members well. When I was knighted the only thing the members could talk about was me becoming an officer, going through the line and receive my KYCH and learning the ritual and the drill routine. I know this was mostly because they were desperate for new blood. It is a double edged sword (pun intended). 

I was lucky when I joined. My Commandery was well off financially. If you joined the drill team (which never met), they would furnish you a uniform, chapeau sword..etc.  I never worried about that. I just wasn't into the marching, constant saluting..etc.

Its like they went from the beauty of the Order of the temple to being a Civil War re enactor.


----------



## JJones (Mar 22, 2013)

I try to be active in my Commandry but I've got to be honest, the drill is a big turn-off to me.  I didn't care for it in the military and I don't care for it now.

They should still have drill teams if they like, sure, but all this marching around and whatnot just to open and close seems pointless and time-consuming to me.

I've already given my opinion on the uniforms. :001_tongue:


----------



## Txmason (Mar 22, 2013)

After I became a master mason I asked brothers at the lodge what the difference between the York and Scottish Rites were. I received the basics of what each one was and no one was able to tell me what I would get out of it. Fast forward two years later, and I joined the SR. I just never got any answers to anything and plus distance was and still is a major factor. 

I am trying to get a SR club started in my area so there can be more participation, but the only interest seems to be blue lodge not the shrine, York or Scottish rite


Freemason Connect Premium App


----------



## Txmason (Mar 22, 2013)

And after I became a master mason no one approached me from any of the organizations about why I should join. 


Freemason Connect Premium App


----------



## crono782 (Mar 22, 2013)

Kind of the same here. Nobody would really give me the low-down on the YR vs SR vs blue lodge differences. Granted, I already have a good idea given that I'm internet savvy and also this forum. Still, plenty of members of my lodge are also in or active in the local Valley, but nobody spoke much about it. I love what I saw in SR and the deeply philosophical and esoteric aspects of it play into my interests, but if they didn't I might be kinda turned off that nobody prepped me for what I was in store for. STill, I'm thankful that my local SR Valley is just a handful of blocks from my work (and less than 10 miles from my home).


----------



## promethean (Mar 30, 2013)

You do not have to be Christian to join the Commandery.  This misconception prevents many from joining.  If you believe in freedom of religion, the obligations of the Commandery should not turn you off.  

The more esoteric teachings of the Scottish Rite may hold more appeal for certain Brethren, but we have some great people in the York Rite.
Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## Mac (Mar 30, 2013)

A profession of belief in Jesus Christ as savior (on the petition) sounds pretty Christian  to me. 

Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## Bill Hosler (Mar 30, 2013)

promethean said:


> You do not have to be Christian to join the Commandery.  This misconception prevents many from joining.  If you believe in freedom of religion, the obligations of the Commandery should not turn you off.
> 
> The more esoteric teachings of the Scottish Rite may hold more appeal for certain Brethren, but we have some great people in the York Rite.
> Freemason Connect Mobile



That is true. All it says is you are willing to pick up a sword to defend the Christian religon.


Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## Mac (Mar 30, 2013)

The petition on the (Texas) Grand Commandery's website has the following line:

"The undersigned represents that he is at present time a member of_____________________________________
_____________Lodge No. ____________A.F. & A.M. under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of 
_____________________________; and that he is at present time a member of or, that he has petitioned 
______________________Chapter No. __________R.A.M. under the jurisdiction of the Grand Chapter of 
__________________________for the Capitular Degrees; and that he is at present time a member of or, that 
he has petitioned ______________________Council No. ________R. & S.M. for the Cryptic Degrees; _*that *_
_*he is a firm believer in the Christian Religion,*_ and that he has never been rejected by a Commandery of 
Knights Templar..."

http://www.texasyorkrite.org/commandery/forms/YorkRitePetition.pdf


----------



## promethean (Mar 30, 2013)

Didn't see that on my petition.

Sent from my LG-MS910 using Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## JohnnyFlotsam (Mar 31, 2013)

So... you're saying that the Texas Grand Commandery has different regulations than that of the Commandery in other jurisidictions. Imagine that. 
Don't get me wrong. If a group of Christian Masons want to get together and do whatever it is that they do, I support that. Such activity is not particularly Masonic, but it certainly is not un-Masonic. I just find it interesting to note that there are some jurisdictions (Texas is not the only one, BTW) that feel the need to exclude non-Christians from the Order while others do not. That would certainly put a damper on membership, especially in the more culturally diverse communities.


----------



## Bill Hosler (Mar 31, 2013)

Mac said:


> The petition on the (Texas) Grand Commandery's website has the following line:
> 
> "The undersigned represents that he is at present time a member of_____________________________________
> _____________Lodge No. ____________A.F. & A.M. under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of
> ...



Wow. The petition in Indiana I signed didn't say that I'm shocked. 


Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## promethean (Mar 31, 2013)

You said it, Brother.  Also, Christianity in its various forms and guises does not seem to grow much in 2013.  Lacking growth, the exclusive jurisdictions limit their potential for increasing membership.

Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## Mac (Mar 31, 2013)

I must admit, as an aspiring member (I should receive the orders soon), I am surprised that a national organization has such a key difference in policy at the jurisdictional level.  The following quote is from the KT section of the York Rite's summary page of the various degrees:

_Its *requirement that its members be professed Christians *has led to calls of condemnation from other Masonic bodies and organizations both inside and outside the United States, claiming that the body is more of a Christian organization rather than a Masonic body. These have had little effect on the body, however, as many of the organizations criticizing the body have similar degrees among themselves.

_http://www.yorkrite.com/degrees/

(Please note I am not saying it should or should not be exclusively Christian.  I'm just fostering this discussion, as I find it interesting that the requirement does not appear to be uniform.)


----------



## MarkR (Apr 1, 2013)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> So... you're saying that the Texas Grand Commandery has different regulations than that of the Commandery in other jurisidictions. Imagine that.
> Don't get me wrong. If a group of Christian Masons want to get together and do whatever it is that they do, I support that. Such activity is not particularly Masonic, but it certainly is not un-Masonic. I just find it interesting to note that there are some jurisdictions (Texas is not the only one, BTW) that feel the need to exclude non-Christians from the Order while others do not. That would certainly put a damper on membership, especially in the more culturally diverse communities.



Check the Grand Encampment of the United States web site, FAQ's.  They make it clear that you must profess a belief in the Christian religion.  Any state that is allowing people to get in with "willingess to defend" is fudging to increase membership, and they know it.


----------



## Ecossais (Apr 1, 2013)

I DID join the Commandery. But, for me, the practice of "marching" around the lodge room is one of the silliest things I've ever encountered in Masonry. I just cannot do it, or even attend a KT meeting, and keep a straight face. It's childish. It's a throwback to the late 1800s, when these kind of pseudo-military organizations were popular, at the end of the Victorian Era. And the hats and costumes.... I'm sorry. I just can't deal with it.


----------



## crono782 (Apr 1, 2013)

It's kinda sad. Everyone tells me how great the Commandery degrees are, but I, like you, have no interest in military marching drills or the uniforms. Perhaps that is why the talk of the cap/mantle look is more appealing that the military dress. The commandery has indeed piqued my interest, but I'm not sure I'd want to join anything that I would not be active/interested in.


----------



## Ol Kev (Apr 1, 2013)

I know I mentioned this about four pages back but, I like what the Levant Preceptory does - Conferring the Order of the Temple in Period costumes.
More Levant Preceptory
Levant Preceptory on Facebook

I'll have to admit, I can't get into the marching thing either.


----------



## QPZIL (Apr 4, 2013)

My local Commandery confers the order of the Temple is a real castle that's about 30 minutes away  When you're wandering through the wilderness, you're actually wandering the grounds of the castle, and then main juicy parts of the order take place in the great hall inside. It's pretty mind-blowing.

Also, our local petition says something to the effect of "the candidate swears to defend the Christian faith," which has a different connotation than "a firm belief". I feel like that wording would attract more members without diluting the core feel of the body.


----------



## KSigMason (Apr 4, 2013)

QPZIL said:


> My local Commandery confers the order of the Temple is a real castle that's about 30 minutes away  When you're wandering through the wilderness, you're actually wandering the grounds of the castle, and then main juicy parts of the order take place in the great hall inside. It's pretty mind-blowing.


That is awesome! I will have to come visit to see this.


----------



## Txmason (Apr 6, 2013)

Aren't the York rite degrees similar to the Scottish rite?


Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## Mac (Apr 8, 2013)

Here's one answer to your question, brother:

http://www.themasonictrowel.com/Articles/apendent_bodies/york/explanation_york_rites.htm


----------



## crono782 (Apr 8, 2013)

Very awesome. I loved that explanation of the RA degree being in both the YR and SR. It's true!

EDIT: Holy crap, there so many articles on that site. I'd read a few before, but never perused all the different ones to see how many there are. Lot of reading material to be had there.


----------



## JJones (Aug 29, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*



Mac said:


> Here's one answer to your question, brother:
> 
> http://www.themasonictrowel.com/Articles/apendent_bodies/york/explanation_york_rites.htm



Wow, that article stuck me as a bit biased towards SR.  Yorkrite is technically older than SR isn't it?  I don't see how their Templars could be considered more authentic like the author suggests.


----------



## Brother JC (Aug 29, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

A lot of the information in that article seems to be counter to other "known" histories. The Scottish Rite hasn't been changed since 1801? Tell that to Pike...


----------



## KSigMason (Aug 30, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*



trysquare said:


> A lot of the information in that article seems to be counter to other "known" histories. The Scottish Rite hasn't been changed since 1801? Tell that to Pike...


Or the current revisions that have been pushed down.

The York Rite ritual has stayed relatively intact since 1797 when Thomas Smith-Webb published his monitor (not including the Cryptic degrees that came later).


----------



## BryanMaloney (Aug 30, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

That essay should actually be titled "Why I think the Scottish Rite is so very much better than the York Rite, but please don't check any other sources for my claims."


----------



## Browncoat (Nov 25, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

I've been doing a lot of research on where/if I will pursue Masonic Light beyond the Blue Lodge. My father-in-law has done both the Scottish and York Rites, in addition to the Shriners and High Twelve. He was also in Commadery. At least in my area, there are more avenues to pursue with the York Rite without having to drive so far. Admittedly, I am particularly drawn to the Knights Templar...or at least I was.

The more I learn about it, the more disinterested I become. The uniforms, expense, and drilling have zero appeal to me. If there were period costumes like Levant Preceptory, I would be all over it. I like the educational aspects of Commandery, but the regalia is a huge turn-off.


----------



## onthesquare (Nov 26, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

Browncoat, The real value in the York as well as the Scottish Rites is not in the trappings but in the lessons learned. If dressing up in costume or marching is not to your taste than I am sure you won't be forced to participate. At all our gatherings it is more important to show up ,the sidelines are always a good place to observe and learn,than to dress up in "costume". In most if not all of the York Rite bodies you don't wear anything out of the ordinary unless you decide to become an officer.
 Commandery being a military order does have a proscribed uniform but I doubt they would throw you out if you wear a dark suit and sit on the sidelines. In my opinion ,whatever bodies you decide to join in the York Rite,you will learn profound lessons that will make a difference in your life as a man and a mason.
              In brotherhood from Michigan, onthesquare


Sent From My Freemasonry Mobile App


----------



## Companion Joe (Nov 27, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

OK, here come some random thoughts of a new member just reading a long and dated thread:

1. All of our York Rite bodies are very strong because Blue Lodge to Commandery meets in the same building. The closest SR temple is more than an hour away.

2. I am personally not overly active in the Commandery simply because with my other responsibilities in the YR, I just can't do everything. 

3. Some have mentioned not liking the military aspect of the Commandery, but that's what makes ours strong. I'd say more than 90% of us are veterans, and we are veterans who thoroughly enjoyed our time in service. It's a way to relive that.

4. Uniforms, where to begin? I am not a fan of the chapeau. They are expensive, look silly, are uncomfortable, and unwieldy to wear. For a young man starting out, the uniform could be very cost prohibitive. I've been there. The uniform and sword aren't that bad. It's the chapeau and sword belt that are killer. Then, once you've become EC, you have to do it over again going from silver to gold. I really like the looks of the cap and mantle and would vote for that in a heartbeat. It looks like what a "Knight Templar" should look like. I would even vote to ditch the chapeau for a typical service cover with the uniform already in use. Some have mentioned the older guard not thinking of the younger generation by clinging to the chapeau, etc. Well, put the shoe on the other foot. You are asking people who have already paid the price for their gear to dump it and purchase new stuff. It's a two-way street that I don't have the proper answer for.


----------



## Browncoat (Nov 27, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*



Companion Joe said:


> Some have mentioned the older guard not thinking of the younger generation by clinging to the chapeau, etc. Well, put the shoe on the other foot. You are asking people who have already paid the price for their gear to dump it and purchase new stuff. It's a two-way street that I don't have the proper answer for.



There's no need for that.

The Levant Preceptory is merely an informal club attached to their Commandery. No additional charter, no need to purchase the required garb, no additional membership fees, no business meetings. What they've done can be repeated anywhere there is a desire to do so. Just get together with like-minded guys and form your own club. If some of the older guys don't like it or don't want to do it, they don't have to.


----------



## Brother JC (Nov 27, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*



Companion Joe said:


> You are asking people who have already paid the price for their gear to dump it and purchase new stuff. It's a two-way street that I don't have the proper answer for.


As with many changes occurring within Masonry, it doesn't have to be one or the other. The "drill team" and Victorian uniforms can continue for those that have them, and those that wish to continue the tradition, while a more realistic chivalric conferral team could also grow. Perhaps one day the cap and mantle will become the standard in a slow, organic manner.
According to my last Grand Commander, the only item required to be worn was the Order of Malta medal.


----------



## Jericho2013 (Dec 2, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

I have already petitioned CCC and am attending the festival in February.  I don't plan on buying a uniform.  After I'm retired many years from now I may get more involved at that level.


----------



## Pscyclepath (Dec 3, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

Locally, it's not so hard to get people to join the Commandery...  in my experience, it's hard to keep them active or keep them coming to meetings once they are knighted.  When I first joined a year ago, I was excited to be a Knight Templar.  I had read the John Robinson books, deeply enjoyed the orders...  however, when I started coming to meetings shortly thereafter, it became a different story.  Our local Council and Commandery meet on the same evening in adjacent rooms on the upper floor of the Grand Lodge building.  The GL is located in the heart of downtown, with a high homeless/panhandler population in the neighborhood.  So, the outer door is always locked, and if you're running a few minutes late after the brethren have gone upstairs to open the meetings, you can't get in.  So, the first meeting, I was assigned as sentinel, and sat outside the asylum door for the most part of the meeting.  I got little or no other info after my orders, so started working to put a uniform together, as it appeared the Commandery does require you to attend in uniform.  I looked at what some of the other guys had, shopped around, and was informed the next time around that I had the wrong color buttons... silver instead of black.  Replaced the buttons and tried again.  I live 20 miles out of town, so brought the uniform with me to work, changed before meeting, and was promptly grouched at for wearing Commandery uniform to the Council meeting prior to the Commandery meeting.  After that, I was being placed in the line at my blue lodge, which holds practice/study sessions on Thursday nights, the 3rd of which the Commandery meets on.  Little seemed to be going on at the commandery save reading of the minutes, and after a few other frustrations, I decided my time was better spent at my lodge rather than chasing squirrels around the Commandery.  I have tried a few meetings since then (two years ago), and things haven't changed much.  So, while I keep up my dues card, I get more satisfaction and light from my lodge.

Maybe some sort of mentoring or coaching program could help the situation...  getting the new guys oriented and settled into some sort of responsibility.  Instead, the focus is on the officers, and moving up the progressive line so's they can collect the KYCH badge.  

My two bits...


----------



## crono782 (Dec 3, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

I finally petitioned the Commandery, but I hear stories of how disorganized it can be. We'll see how much I like it. I'm hoping against all odds that my experience won't mirror yours @psyclepath but I fear it may be. Hopefully I can make a difference. Gosh, I can't imagine having to wear that dreadful uniform. I read through some Texas Grand Commandery documents and found that the caps and mantles are allowed (though we'll see if mine bothers to use them).


----------



## Brennan (Dec 4, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

I just joined the york rite and in ours we only use the uniform for the inspection and the reunions. 


Sent From My Freemasonry Mobile App


----------



## crono782 (Dec 4, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

I asked about it and in ours only the officers and guards and such wear them. when I mentioned the cap/mantle he said that the topic came up but everyone thought it looked funny and preferred the uniform. *sigh* the next stated here isn't until January so I won't receive the orders til February i'd guess.


----------



## cacarter (Dec 9, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

I joined the York Rite in September and have been most active in commandery so far. It's already been brought up, but the cost of getting involved is a tough one. Thankfully, the only thing I've had to purchase as of now is the jacket. All the other necessary equipment is being loaned, gifted, or I already had (pants and shoes). 

Also mentioned previously I believe, the degrees and orders are beautiful and contain many important lessons. But meetings are, well, meetings. So I'm trying to find the deeper purpose of York Rite by becoming involved. It's the old saying, "You get what you put into it." I hope that is true.


----------



## cacarter (Dec 9, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

I joined the York Rite in September and have been most active in commandery so far. It's already been brought up, but the cost of getting involved is a tough one. Thankfully, the only thing I've had to purchase as of now is the jacket. All the other necessary equipment is being loaned, gifted, or I already had (pants and shoes). 

Also mentioned previously I believe, the degrees and orders are beautiful and contain many important lessons. But meetings are, well, meetings. So I'm trying to find the deeper purpose of York Rite by becoming involved. It's the old saying, "You get what you put into it." I hope that is true.


----------



## crono782 (Dec 9, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

I've found quite a bit of meaning in both the chapter and council after actually pouring some time into researching the history and meaning behind the degrees. I suggest you look into the "Companion Adept of the Temple" program. I cannot get it yet until I join the commandery, but I've already read half of the books suggested for learning materials. The studying I've since done on the chapter and council have deepened my appreciation for them ten fold.


----------



## cacarter (Dec 9, 2013)

*Re: Why is it so hard to get Masons to join the Co*

Thank you brother. I have unfortunately been unable to get as actively involved in chapter and council, but I hope to. I will definitely check out the program you mentioned.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Aug 24, 2014)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> Meh...
> I agree that the idea of an exclusionary qualification such as "Christians only" is hardly Masonic, but I don't lose any sleep over it. My Brothers who are members of the Commandery are no more "Masons" than I am, so I don't begrudge them having whatever rules they want re. membership. Truly, whatever my Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu, or Wiccan Brethren want to do together to celebrate/examine their common beliefs in a Masonic context is probably something I would support, as long as it doesn't prevent all of our Brethren from enjoying the full range of what Freemasonry proper has to offer.


Ditto.


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Nov 29, 2014)

I know first hand the frustration many feel here.  In the Scottish Rite you watch a handful of plays and poof- you're a 32nd.  We are a participation organization and participation gets in your blood.  We are 3 separate bodies, yet one Rite.  (Many walks of life yet one Brotherhood.)  Our problem is Commandery uniform cost.  I will not wear that mantle, as many look closer to woman's lingerie and totally lacking in bearing and solemnity.  The solution, I think, is my proposal that I hope to get before the next Triennial.  It maintains military bearing, recalls historical integrity and saves the member $160.80 - $ 625.69 respectively.
In addition, we have to get out there for people to see us, in Lodge and public.  Question: How many Commanderies do an Arch of Steel for the incoming Master Councilor, Honored Queen or Worthy Advisor?  uh-huh.


----------



## kastonw (Nov 29, 2014)

I think what it comes down to is most Brothers  just  want  to say there a 32nd degree  Master Mason plus  the Uniform cost don't  help much  ether lol


----------



## Warrior1256 (Nov 29, 2014)

kastonw said:


> I think what it comes down to is most Brothers  just  want  to say there a 32nd degree  Master Mason plus  the Uniform cost don't  help much  ether lol


I hear that the cost is prohibitive but here in Kentucky you do not have to have the uniform unless you want to be an officer.


----------



## Companion Joe (Nov 29, 2014)

I'm going to be Generalissimo next year and just dropped $400 on a new chapeau. I'm all about keeping them now. That doesn't mean I have to like 'em; it just means I'm not in favor of changing now


----------



## kastonw (Nov 30, 2014)

Warrior1256 said:


> I hear that the cost is prohibitive but here in Kentucky you do not have to have the uniform unless you want to be an officer.



It's the same in Louisiana but my thing is why join if your not going to participate ??


----------



## RyanC (Nov 30, 2014)

At some point the Dress change with the time, I think the time has come for it too change again.


----------



## Companion Joe (Nov 30, 2014)

The basic Commandery uniform of black coat and chapeau is pretty much the same as it has been for more than 150 years. It isn't changing any time soon. 
As I've said in other threads (and maybe this one), it is a cycle. There are those of us who have our uniforms put together and those who do not. You do not have to have a uniform to attend meetings, but you do need one to be an officer. The only way you are going to become influential in your Commandery is to be an officer, meaning you need the current uniform. Those of us with uniforms don't want to buy something different any more than new guys want to buy the current kit, probably more so. 

I'm personally not a fan of the current uniform, but it is what it is. If you want to participate, you accept the uniform.


----------



## Morris (Nov 30, 2014)

Do people need separate uniforms for each body, or just the commandery?


----------



## Companion Joe (Nov 30, 2014)

There are no uniforms for the Chapter and Council. If you are a grand officer, you will need a red or purple blazer. Otherwise, you just wear what you would to a lodge meeting.


----------



## RyanC (Nov 30, 2014)

Just like begin a Grand Lodge Officer they have their own style of Blazers too.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Nov 30, 2014)

kastonw said:


> It's the same in Louisiana but my thing is why join if your not going to participate ??


I'll still participate just not as an officer.


----------



## MarkR (Dec 1, 2014)

Companion Joe said:


> If you want to participate, you accept the uniform.


And one can also say, if you insist on keeping the uniform, you accept that most young men won't want to participate.


----------



## Companion Joe (Dec 1, 2014)

MarkR said:


> And one can also say, if you insist on keeping the uniform, you accept that most young men won't want to participate.



That's fine. Young people today have too much of a sense of entitlement and getting their own way. Commanderies shouldn't have to cater to everyone's demands. It is a voluntary organization.


----------



## chrmc (Dec 1, 2014)

Companion Joe said:


> That's fine. Young people today have too much of a sense of entitlement and getting their own way. Commanderies shouldn't have to cater to everyone's demands. It is a voluntary organization.



Above is of course a valid statement, but I think it speaks to the core of the problem. Most young people don't see the point in the Commandery. It seems like an organization dedicated to marching and wearing silly uniforms. And not as the pinnacle of light that the York rite has to offer. I think that the reason most masons continue onwards to the YR is that there is good additional light and masonic knowledge to be found that builds well on what we've already had in blue lodge. However if all I find at the end of the rainbow are silly costumes that are expensive and people that want to march, it certainly isn't for me. Where's the study groups, the books and the light?


----------



## RyanC (Dec 1, 2014)

Companion Joe said:


> That's fine. Young people today have too much of a sense of entitlement and getting their own way. Commanderies shouldn't have to cater to everyone's demands. It is a voluntary organization.


I think people today want more out of Freemasonry, I think those that are joining today are less entitled when it comes to light in Masonry than those in the past. They are going out of their way to find information that most never tried to learn or where never thought. I agree I'm looking too learn to improve myself through knowledge, I spent four years in the Marine Corp where I learned Drill,and drill has now to with self improvement.


----------



## RyanC (Dec 1, 2014)

USMC defines Close Order Drill as; The object of close order drill is to teach Marines by exercise to obey orders and to do so immediately in the correct way. Close order drill is one foundation of discipline and esprit de corps. Additionally, it is still one of the finest methods for developing confidence and troop leading abilities in our subordinate leaders

I don't see anything masonic about that.


----------



## Companion Joe (Dec 1, 2014)

I agree with pretty much most of that. I am not a major Commandery cheerleader; never have been, never will be. I participate out of an obligation to the other YR bodies. I honestly don't see the Commandery as the top of YR light. It doesn't even stick to the basic Masonic story. Some guys love it above all other bodies. I don't care for the uniforms and drill, either, but like I said, if you want to participate, it's part of it. Heck, I am a Navy veteran; we didn't march! My favorite Commandery meetings are the ones where we open in short form. I consider the YR College much more prestigious than the Commandery.

I wasn't really defending the Commandery earlier, and I certainly wasn't defending the uniforms. I don't know that I'd stoop to calling the uniforms silly. That's an opinion and not fact. They are/can be expensive. What I was defending is an organization not bending to people saying, "I'd join if you change to suit me."


----------



## MarkR (Dec 2, 2014)

RyanC said:


> Just like begin a Grand Lodge Officer they have their own style of Blazers too.


We don't.


----------



## JJones (Dec 2, 2014)

> That's fine. Young people today have too much of a sense of entitlement and getting their own way. Commanderies shouldn't have to cater to everyone's demands. It is a voluntary organization.



I don't look at it that way, although I certainly see what you mean.  If a Commandrie doesn't want to change their uniform in hopes of attracting younger members then they're completely in their right to do so.  However, what if -existing- members dislike the uniforms?  I think it's also within their rights to work towards change if they see fit.


----------



## chrmc (Dec 2, 2014)

Companion Joe said:


> What I was defending is an organization not bending to people saying, "I'd join if you change to suit me."



And that is something I can greatly respect. But think that the YR will face a challenge to a certain extend if they don't adapt in some ways. We all know that we've got less Masons to go around, and if the ones coming in don't find the present content that interesting they will not join. 

What YR has got going for it is the number of invitational bodies, where being part of the Commandery probably helps you get an invite, so people may still join due to that. Question then becomes if they as an organization are happy to be considered a necessary step to get to somewhere else. That'll keep you with dues paying members, but maybe not active ones.


----------



## kastonw (Dec 2, 2014)

Warrior1256 said:


> I'll still participate just not as an officer.



That's why I'm trying  to get my uniform I would like to be a officer lol


----------



## crono782 (Dec 2, 2014)

Perhaps it is a byproduct of me being asked to be an officer, but the uniforms seem less silly to me than they once did. I dunno, I guess they're growing on me or something. The cost really is a major drawback though.

I wonder though, is the uniform actually something stopping new members from *joining*, or rather is it an obstacle to retaining membership? It doesn't seem to me that new members would point to the uniform as a reason not to join. Most complaints like that don't occur until they've already joined. After all, like most everybody says, you don't need the uniform to be a member or attend meetings, just to be an officer. So it seems to me this topic should be thought of two ways: 1) why is it hard to get new members? and 2) why can't we retain members?

Both of these are lengthy topics, but as the title of this thread is "joining", I'll comment there.
Did anyone read this month's KT magazine? In it, there was an article talking about membership retention and active participation between "festival"/"class" degrees/orders and individual conferral of degrees/orders. The article stated that there was markedly less participation in members who received orders via festival versus individual conferral. Stay with me here. I can't help but notice in my own Masonic career that I am much more invested in Blue Lodge, Chapter, and Council, than I am in the Commandery. The difference? I received all my blue, red, and purple (if you will) degrees right there in my own lodge/c&c. It really struck a chord and made an impact receiving my degrees first hand rather than be side-lined for the whole thing. Conversely, I received my orders from the side-line during a Commandery only class/festival (as my Commandery could not get together to put them on), with only very little participation granted me toward the very end. Don't get me wrong, the Commandery that put on the Orders did a superb job, but it's just not the same and I would be hard pressed to say that the Orders had much if any impact on me personally/emotionally the way the rest did.
Now, my ultimate point: Is it possible that the majority of men are receiving their Chapter and Council degrees in festival/class format rather than individually, thus creating a slew of non-active c&c members? Once they see how little attention and care is given to them in the bodies leading up to the Commandery, why would they spend more money and commit time to something that they (might) perceive little value to them? Perhaps some investigation may be given to the local Chapters and Councils to see what their retention looks like. After all, just as the Blue Lodge is the fertile ground for new Royal Arch Masons, so is the Chapter the fertile ground for new Sir Knights. Men who only seek a title will get the orders then leave anyway, the ones who aren't only groping for titles, may just be disenchanted exactly how much more Light the YR provides.

/EDIT: Thus I come back around to my arguments that, while festivals are seen as a necessity, they are, in the long run, a bad idea.


----------



## kastonw (Dec 2, 2014)

crono782 said:


> Perhaps it is a byproduct of me being asked to be an officer, but the uniforms seem less silly to me than they once did. I dunno, I guess they're growing on me or something. The cost really is a major drawback though.
> 
> I wonder though, is the uniform actually something stopping new members from *joining*, or rather is it an obstacle to retaining membership? It doesn't seem to me that new members would point to the uniform as a reason not to join. Most complaints like that don't occur until they've already joined. After all, like most everybody says, you don't need the uniform to be a member or attend meetings, just to be an officer. So it seems to me this topic should be thought of two ways: 1) why is it hard to get new members? and 2) why can't we retain members?
> 
> ...




I agree I received my Mark Masters degree in my lodge but the rest of my degrees were all done in a Festival I remember  my Mark Masters degree very well I received a lot from it then to sit and watch the degrees be done one after another jammed into 1 or 2 days it's harder to remember it and it leaves you overwhelmed


----------



## JJones (Dec 2, 2014)

crono782 said:


> Perhaps it is a byproduct of me being asked to be an officer, but the uniforms seem less silly to me than they once did. I dunno, I guess they're growing on me or something. The cost really is a major drawback though.
> 
> I wonder though, is the uniform actually something stopping new members from *joining*, or rather is it an obstacle to retaining membership? It doesn't seem to me that new members would point to the uniform as a reason not to join. Most complaints like that don't occur until they've already joined. After all, like most everybody says, you don't need the uniform to be a member or attend meetings, just to be an officer. So it seems to me this topic should be thought of two ways: 1) why is it hard to get new members? and 2) why can't we retain members?
> 
> ...



I'm also in agreement on this.  It's very unfortunate that more rural areas, such as my own, cannot confer YR degrees outside of festivals due to the large amount of manpower required.  I went through a one day festival for ALL of my YR degrees and, until I saw them again years later, could not give you more than a few memorable details about the entire day.  Festivals are like trying to drink water from a fire hose.


----------



## Companion Joe (Dec 2, 2014)

I agree on the festivals. We had our fall festival in November and brought in two new members. We have four coming through the first of the year that couldn't make the festival, so we will confer their degrees/orders at home. It has been 20+ years, but I remember very little about getting the degrees when I went through in a festival. It wasn't until I started working the degrees that I got the benefit, and I didn't appreciate the Order of the Temple until I was a "practice candidate" years after I actually received it.

As for the uniforms, yes, once you become an officer, they seem less silly. Honestly, the whole reason I ever got on board the uniform train was because I missed a December meeting and found out the next day I was an officer for the following year!


----------



## cacarter (Dec 3, 2014)

Did the festivals, barely remember any of it. Became an officer in my Commandery two months after joining. Right after inspection was done, I quit. The uniform was not the reason I quit, I bought it except for the chapeau, sword, and belt which I borrowed from the dead mans closet. The reason I didn't stick around and advance was because I found zero value in my membership and participation. It seemed that commanderies were more worried about scores in drill, order of the temple, and inspection. I didn't join to compete in the Captain Crunch Mickey Mouse Marching games. My Commandery is nearly made up entirely of past commanders and/or past grand commanders or current grand officers, so everyone argues about who is right and each tries to have the last word. Meetings felt more like a stroking of egos than learning or doing anything of value. Every meeting I wanted to fall on my sword to end the misery. That's why I didn't stick around.


----------



## Companion Joe (Dec 6, 2014)

JJones said:


> I don't look at it that way, although I certainly see what you mean.  If a Commandrie doesn't want to change their uniform in hopes of attracting younger members then they're completely in their right to do so.  However, what if -existing- members dislike the uniforms?  I think it's also within their rights to work towards change if they see fit.



I just noticed this; sorry, I wasn't ignoring it.

As to the question if existing members work to change the uniforms, I have no problem with that at all.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Dec 6, 2014)

I don't have a problem with the uniform, just the cost.


----------



## Morris (Dec 7, 2014)

dalinkou said:


> I have petitioned, and I have gotten as far as the Royal Arch degree.  For me, it comes down to time.  If there is a place for me and the meetings are later in the week (Thurs or Friday), I'll probably be involved.  I've heard a lot about Commandery and I am interested, but I will have to get there to see for myself.


I think this is the basic issue. It's very hard to balance your work, school, kids gymnastics/youth baseball, blue lodge, your other blue lodge, oh and an appendant body. 

In a 20 workday month I average around:

8 baseball practices
8 night school classes
4 gymnastics
4 lodge visits 
1 scottish rite visit

There is simply no time for anything else.


----------



## MaineMason (Dec 7, 2014)

David Melear said:


> This is a question I have had for a long time, and I would like ask the members of this website their options on the topic?
> 
> Why if you are a Christian and a Mason, would you not want to join the Commandery?


I belong to Chapter and am also Scottish Rite. I am also a Christian of the Episcopalian variety. What I object to when it comes to Commandery is the military aspect. I prefer to keep my Freemasonary and my Christianity separate.


----------



## MaineMason (Dec 7, 2014)

dalinkou said:


> I have petitioned, and I have gotten as far as the Royal Arch degree.  For me, it comes down to time.  If there is a place for me and the meetings are later in the week (Thurs or Friday), I'll probably be involved.  I've heard a lot about Commandery and I am interested, but I will have to get there to see for myself.


RAM myself here also Scottish Rite.


----------



## Companion Joe (Dec 7, 2014)

There is no objection to the military aspect in my local bodies. My Blue Lodge is probably 75 veterans. My Commandery is almost entirely veterans. Many of the members are drawn because of the throwback to their days in the service. I have never met a veteran or active duty military person who is not a strong religious man.


----------



## MaineMason (Dec 7, 2014)

Companion Joe said:


> There is no objection to the military aspect in my local bodies. My Blue Lodge is probably 75 veterans. My Commandery is almost entirely veterans. Many of the members are drawn because of the throwback to their days in the service. I have never met a veteran or active duty military person who is not a strong religious man.


Well, Companion, I'm in chapter but I'm not military. We've got some vets in Blue Lodge but we're not all vets (I have never been in the military). I suspect while we are all Brothers, we might have different feelings.


----------



## MaineMason (Dec 7, 2014)

And I should say we have some vets in Chapter, too.


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 11, 2014)

First and foremost, if you are a Christian you should be a 'Yorkie'; thus, Knight Templar.
Second, yes I am a retired Marine and enjoy the military aspects of the YR, just as I enjoy being a member of my VFW ritual team.
Third, military and religion are needed together, look at what is happening around you.  (Also active political efforts for the American way.)
Fourth, time is a short commodity these days and the respective YR body should make every effort to work around your schedule, with you doing everything to make it happen.
Fifth, to keep members coming deemphasize the need to immediately get a uniform.


----------



## MaineMason (Dec 11, 2014)

Willaim Perkins said:


> First and foremost, if you are a Christian you should be a 'Yorkie'; thus, Knight Templar.
> Second, yes I am a retired Marine and enjoy the military aspects of the YR, just as I enjoy being a member of my VFW ritual team.
> Third, military and religion are needed together, look at what is happening around you.  (Also active political efforts for the American way.)
> Fourth, time is a short commodity these days and the respective YR body should make every effort to work around your schedule, with you doing everything to make it happen.
> Fifth, to keep members coming deemphasize the need to immediately get a uniform.


I absolutely, as an American Patriot and a Mason of both the York and the Scottish Rite disagree. The American Way can be described in a lot of ways but it's not up to Masons to do it.


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 11, 2014)

MaineMason said:


> I absolutely, as an American Patriot and a Mason of both the York and the Scottish Rite disagree. The American Way can be described in a lot of ways but it's not up to Masons to do it.


Have you forgotten the EA Charge to the Candidate?


----------



## MarkR (Dec 12, 2014)

Willaim Perkins said:


> First and foremost, if you are a Christian you should be a 'Yorkie'; thus, Knight Templar


I am a Christian, and the fact that my non-Christian blue lodge brothers are excluded is one of the reasons I'm NOT interested in KT.  Invitational side degrees, okay, but a main degree of a Masonic rite, I'm not okay with.


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 12, 2014)

MarkR said:


> I am a Christian, and the fact that my non-Christian blue lodge brothers are excluded is one of the reasons I'm NOT interested in KT.  Invitational side degrees, okay, but a main degree of a Masonic rite, I'm not okay with.


To each their own, but what gets overlooked is that the Order does not require that you be a Christian, only that you'll defend the Christian Faith.


----------



## kastonw (Dec 12, 2014)

Very true


----------



## Morris (Dec 12, 2014)

I pulled this from the KT website under FAQ

How to Become a Knight Templar

To petition a Commandery of Knights Templar or membership, you must first be a member of a Masonic Lodge and other pre-requisite bodies such as the Royal Arch Chapter and possibly a Council of Royal and Select Masters. (This depends on the state where you reside) To petition a Commandery one must profess a belief in the Christian Religion.

http://www.knightstemplar.org/faq.html


----------



## Morris (Dec 12, 2014)

Ive always thought you had to be a Christian to be a KT. If that is changing I haven't seen an effort to get rid of that perception.

If that's changing, I like it!


----------



## Brother JC (Dec 12, 2014)

It hasn't changed. You must repeat the Apostolic Creed and swear to defend the Christian religion above all others.
People need to remember that the York "rite" isn't a linear path like SR, it's a conglomeration of bodies. If you don't want to join Commandery, fine, but don't let it stop you from joining Chapter, or even Council.


----------



## cacarter (Dec 12, 2014)

Willaim Perkins said:


> First and foremost, if you are a Christian you should be a 'Yorkie'; thus, Knight Templar.
> .


 
If you are a Christian you should be a Knight Templar; thus, 'Yorkie.' FIFY.


----------



## kastonw (Dec 12, 2014)

trysquare said:


> It hasn't changed. You must repeat the Apostolic Creed and swear to defend the Christian religion above all others.
> People need to remember that the York "rite" isn't a linear path like SR, it's a conglomeration of bodies. If you don't want to join Commandery, fine, but don't let it stop you from joining Chapter, or even Council.




This is true our Illustrious Master of the Council isn't a member of our Commandery and he's at every one of our Chapter and Council meetings


----------



## Mac (Dec 12, 2014)

Willaim Perkins said:


> Third, military and religion are needed together, look at what is happening around you.  (Also active political efforts for the American way.)


This statement makes the hairs on anyone else's neck go up?


----------



## Mac (Dec 12, 2014)

trysquare said:


> It hasn't changed. You must repeat the Apostolic Creed and swear to defend the Christian religion above all others.
> People need to remember that the York "rite" isn't a linear path like SR, it's a conglomeration of bodies. If you don't want to join Commandery, fine, but don't let it stop you from joining Chapter, or even Council.


Doesn't it depend on the jurisdiction?  I could swear my Texas petition for the commandery had me check a box (or do something similar) stating I was Christian. If that's not necessary, the paperwork should be updated ASAP.


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 12, 2014)

Mac said:


> Doesn't it depend on the jurisdiction?  I could swear my Texas petition for the commandery had me check a box (or do something similar) stating I was Christian. If that's not necessary, the paperwork should be updated ASAP.


I joined in July 1980.  I do know that in the ritual in Illinois you swear to defend the Christian faith.


----------



## MaineMason (Dec 12, 2014)

kastonw said:


> This is true our Illustrious Master of the Council isn't a member of our Commandery and he's at every one of our Chapter and Council meetings


I guess I would defend the Episcopal Church but do not find it necessary to defend Christianity in the many heretical forms it has taken.Last time I checked, there were there were three large Christian bodies: Roman Catholicisim, Russian Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism, of which I happen to be a member.


----------



## MaineMason (Dec 12, 2014)

Willaim Perkins said:


> I joined in July 1980.  I do know that in the ritual in Illinois you swear to defend the Christian faith.


It was never an idea in my family that one would swear to defend any faith in order to be a Mason, that doesn't work with me.


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 12, 2014)

Well a few years ago we had a GHP in IL that was Jewish and he is in the Commandery.


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 12, 2014)

MaineMason said:


> It was never an idea in my family that one would swear to defend any faith in order to be a Mason, that doesn't work with me.


Defend has many meanings and applications.  A theological debate/discussion could be looked at as "defending".


----------



## MaineMason (Dec 12, 2014)

Willaim Perkins said:


> Defend has many meanings and applications.  A theological debate/discussion could be looked at as "defending".


I am Anglican and through and though, and I am a 32n degree Mason and a gay man.


----------



## MaineMason (Dec 12, 2014)

My father, also a 33nd degree Mason is not exactly a "born again" Christian either.


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 12, 2014)

We have all sinned and fallen short; and I am probably among the biggest of sinners.


----------



## MarkR (Dec 13, 2014)

The Grand Encampment web site says you must believe in the Christian religion, as was quoted earlier in the thread.  It says it several times on their web site, including on the downloadable petition.  Now, I guess that the Grand Commanderies of the states don't have to belong to the Grand Encampment, but if they do, and they fudge the Christian requirement, aren't they in violation?


----------



## MaineMason (Dec 13, 2014)

The Grand Encampment might have a set of rules, but no Mason is forced to join it and furthermore, none must join.
MaineMason 32nd degree.,Scottish Rite.


----------



## MarkR (Dec 14, 2014)

MaineMason said:


> The Grand Encampment might have a set of rules, but no Mason is forced to join it and furthermore, none must join.
> MaineMason 32nd degree.,Scottish Rite.


I'm not sure what point you're making.  I posted about the Grand Encampment in response to posts that said you do not have to be a Christian to be a KT.  Grand Encampment says otherwise.  That was my only point.


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 14, 2014)

I believe that you are beating a dead horse and that I am assisting you.
From all of your posts I gather that your primary objection to the Order is the idea of, of the clause of Christianity in the Knights Templar.  I stated what I know and I only deal with it at our level.  If one of my 3rd cousins on my mom's dad's side, they're Jewish, wanted to join and they swore to defend the Christian faith then I see no problem.  One could make argument that the Sojourners are wrong since not everyone has or could pay the debt that they owe this country.  Why can't my grand daughter join DeMolay just because she's a girl?


----------



## Mac (Dec 14, 2014)

Are any of those organizations passively portrayed as the completion of a Rite? Is a small, but significant, portion of your granddaughter's friends joining DeMolay, but she's left out due to her faith? Apples and oranges.


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 14, 2014)

Mac said:


> Are any of those organizations passively portrayed as the completion of a Rite? Is a small, but significant, portion of your granddaughter's friends joining DeMolay, but she's left out due to her faith? Apples and oranges.


DeMolay is for boys and the other is for certain members of the Armed Forces active/former/retired.


----------



## Mac (Dec 14, 2014)

And neither is (more or less) marketed as the capstone to a branch of Freemasonry. DeMolay is not marketed as being an all-inclusive organization for boys and girls. Freemasonry is a fraternity for men who believe in God (without getting into specifics)... a practice carried forward in the Scottish Rite. Meanwhile, in the York Rite, it only applies to two thirds of the organizations. It's that last exclusionary third that gets people talking and debating these same topics time and time again.

Well, that and the costumes for it.


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 14, 2014)

Mac said:


> And neither is (more or less) marketed as the capstone to a branch of Freemasonry. DeMolay is not marketed as being an all-inclusive organization for boys and girls. Freemasonry is a fraternity for men who believe in God (without getting into specifics)... a practice carried forward in the Scottish Rite. Meanwhile, in the York Rite, it only applies to two thirds of the organizations. It's that last exclusionary third that gets people talking and debating these same topics time and time again.
> 
> Well, that and the costumes for it.


Point well made.  By the same token one could debate what is Christianity, but that would be for another site entirely.  the way I look at it is that the YR is set up the way that it is, the SR the way that it is. you can join one of both on the grounds of how and what way you wish to believe.


----------



## Rifleman1776 (Dec 15, 2014)

David Melear said:


> This is a question I have had for a long time, and I would like ask the members of this website their options on the topic?
> 
> Why if you are a Christian and a Mason, would you not want to join the Commandery?


 
 Many reasons. Younger family men just don't have the time. Budget is a consideration, three extra bodies to pay due to, uniforms, travel, etc. No way when baby needs shoes. Rituals are complicated to the point where history and lessons are lost on procedure. Boring and meaningless in this active day and age. And, since, in some states KT or 32nd degree are no longer required for Shrine membership, many just skip and go directly to Shrine membership. And, when I was younger (I'm now 76), in my 30s and 40s, the idea of spending an evening with 80 to 100 year old men was not my idea of excitement. Going to funerals twice a month is depressing. (I live in a retirement area and that is common)


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 15, 2014)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Many reasons. Younger family men just don't have the time. Budget is a consideration, three extra bodies to pay due to, uniforms, travel, etc. No way when baby needs shoes. Rituals are complicated to the point where history and lessons are lost on procedure. Boring and meaningless in this active day and age. And, since, in some states KT or 32nd degree are no longer required for Shrine membership, many just skip and go directly to Shrine membership. And, when I was younger (I'm now 76), in my 30s and 40s, the idea of spending an evening with 80 to 100 year old men was not my idea of excitement. Going to funerals twice a month is depressing. (I live in a retirement area and that is common)


The Benjamin's ($) are going to be a continuing problem for every organization for probably another generation, which is why I  am promoting a drastic uniform shift. I am also looking at tactics and ritual changes for the other bodies.  Our state doesn't require either appendant body for Shrine membership and it has hurt us.  Contrary to your view of being in the company of old guys, I tend to learn things about life.  I know funeral, both from Rites and as a member of our VFW team Honors.  We owe it to them.
I know that all I do will be an uphill climb.


----------



## Derek Harvey (Dec 16, 2014)

I'm an E.A.. my goal once I've reached m.m. is to join the york rite. It's all I can think about. My job sure makes it tough.


----------



## kastonw (Dec 16, 2014)

Derek Harvey said:


> I'm an E.A.. my goal once I've reached m.m. is to join the york rite. It's all I can think about. My job sure makes it tough.




Work is usually what kills me but if you can find the time it definitely is worth it I'm the youngest member of my lodges and York Rite bodies with me being 24


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 16, 2014)

kastonw said:


> Work is usually what kills me but if you can find the time it definitely is worth it I'm the youngest member of my lodges and York Rite bodies with me being 24


I was 24 when I joined.


----------



## kastonw (Dec 16, 2014)

Awesome I was 22 when I was raised I've had a few of the older Brothers tell me that  there proud to see someone as young as me active in the lodge and not being just a card carrying member


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 16, 2014)

I was23 when Raised in1980.  They got a dispensation so I could get it done while home on leave.  I got stationed in my hometown on Recruiting Duty and went through the York Rite In July of '80.


----------



## Rifleman1776 (Dec 16, 2014)

Willaim Perkins said:


> The Benjamin's ($) are going to be a continuing problem for every organization for probably another generation, which is why I  am promoting a drastic uniform shift. I am also looking at tactics and ritual changes for the other bodies.  Our state doesn't require either appendant body for Shrine membership and it has hurt us.  Contrary to your view of being in the company of old guys, I tend to learn things about life.  I know funeral, both from Rites and as a member of our VFW team Honors.  We owe it to them.
> I know that all I do will be an uphill climb.


 
Willaim, you missed my mention that I am now an old guy. But, as a young man I found it depressing to be around so many who could not remember the work, were confused and often died before the next meeting. I know for a fact that is a put-off to many considering membership.


----------



## Willaim Perkins (Dec 16, 2014)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Willaim, you missed my mention that I am now an old guy. But, as a young man I found it depressing to be around so many who could not remember the work, were confused and often died before the next meeting. I know for a fact that is a put-off to many considering membership.


Yes I guess I did miss that part of it.  What I get for reading before coffee.  It sounded as if you found being with older Brethren a put-off and the ritual senseless.  I stand corrected (actually I'm sitting corrected).  Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 25, 2017)

I have to say that I really like the class A KT uniform, yes even the chapeau, lol. Just got my uniform and accessories and participated in the opening of the Commandery on the long form. It was great! I saw many complaints about the current class a uniforms earlier on this particular thread just had to take up for it.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 26, 2017)

Companion Joe said:


> I don't care for the uniforms and drill, either, but like I said, if you want to participate, it's part of it.


Agreed!


MaineMason said:


> What I object to when it comes to Commandery is the military aspect.


The military aspect and drill is what I like about the Commandery.


Willaim Perkins said:


> I do know that in the ritual in Illinois you swear to defend the Christian faith.


Same


crono782 said:


> but I, like you, have no interest in military marching drills or the uniforms.


I love both! The military aspect was one of the main things that drew me to the Knights Templar and I think that the uniform is really sharp looking.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 26, 2017)

Benton said:


> one of the things the uniforms has done is keep the respect for the institution alive, to some extent or another. And (as a still relatively young person in freemasonry at 24), the mantles over casual dress would look... well, not like an organization I would want to be a part of.


Absolutely agree!


vanderson78102 said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it has been a matter of expense. I just don't make that kind of money. What with initiation fees, dues, and the uniform, I've been told it can get expensive fast.


I have been a member of KT for 14 months. Just got my uniform and accessories after saving up month by month for it. I got some great deals on everything but it still ended up costing me a little better than $700.00. As stated, I am not destitute by any means but I saved little by little as it is a big expense but, at least to me, worth it.


----------



## Kalip78 (Feb 28, 2017)

Well Brethren, if nothing unexpected will happen, I will be knighted at the end of March. Why?

I firmly belive, that for a Christian Freemason KT/KM or CBCS is a natural culmination of Masonic path. The Scottish Rite with its general teaching on "being a good citizen" in my opinion is not as important. It's rather a supporting order (that doesn't mean it's not important at all). KT/KM or CBCS is also return to the Christian origins of our movement of which we so often forget.

And - last but not least - I love the history of Middle Ages and knighthood in particular. ;-)

So my choice is not accidental and requires also some sacrifices as I have to go to another country for instalation. I do believe it is worth it!

I know, that from a point of view of multireligious America it may seem strange, but in Europe with it's mostly Christian origins it shouldn't. At last only in Europe we have a Swedish Rite (which fascinates me, by the way). ;-)

I also read the article from The Masonic Trowel. The author is more or less wrong on everything,  but especially on templars. I agree that Scottish Rite is using templar legend in some of its degrees, but it doesn’t make SR member a templar. Why? Because you can not separate chivalric orders from Christianity! Order's knight is a monk-warrior. Without Christianity it’s just a warrior, not a knight. So, in my opinion, members of KT, CBCS or SwR are (neo)templars and SR members are not. But of course it doesn’t make them worse kind of Masons in any way.

Frats from sunny Warsaw!


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 28, 2017)

Kalip78 said:


> Well Brethren, if nothing unexpected will happen, I will be knighted at the end of March.


Congratulations Brother!


----------



## Kalip78 (Feb 28, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Congratulations Brother!



Thanks, Bro!

S&F


----------



## Warrior1256 (Mar 7, 2017)

Kalip78 said:


> Thanks, Bro!


Let us know when you get knighted and how it went.


----------



## Kalip78 (Mar 8, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Let us know when you get knighted and how it went.



I will, Bro! The plan is KT on Friday 24th and KM on Saturday 25th (independent order style).

Frats from Warsaw!


----------



## john riverbank (Aug 21, 2020)

Don't mean to resurrect an old thread but o well, here for more light.  I've gone through the York Rite degrees but didn't find out till everything was said and done about the class A uniforms, besides the cost I cannot stand the looks of the things.  Know a few brothers who went through the degrees with me and we feel the same.  With Covid-19 doing it's thing most of us are just waiting it out as well as looking around for a commandery that does cap and mantle.

Anyway, a few observations, one brother I know from out east came from an active commandery that was all cap and mantle, he moved to my state and not only was ours a lot smaller, they were far, far more political.  It was the my way or the highway attitude on everything, uniforms included.  They had chased away more than a few brothers to other commandaries, a few just demitted and either stayed with blue lodge or if he was SR/Shrine stuck with that.  It's to the point where they're now doing like other commandaries are, they either combine with other ones to boost the number of sir knights or just barely scrape by.  Friend of mine was almost voluntold for an officer position without being informed about the need for a class A, needless to say he declined.  As things are, combined with the few people who stick around and covid, my old commandery may be on the way out, who knows.

I do wonder how all this will work post covid, as it is lodges are struggling and far as I can tell politics are getting bad.  I've been in lodge in other states and it's disgusting the problems some brothers cause, lots of places are desperate for bodies so they let in anyone they can, big suprise when the good people leave and those who are harmed run their mouths off on social media and the lodges reputation gets ruined.  Considering lots of commanderies have issues having enough people to open i'd think they would budge on this.  The uniforms are a huge turn off for many, that and with the politics that keeps popping up it sure is a bad thought that you'd spend all that money only to get into a political spat with someone then have to either demit out or change commandaries, have a cousin who's in and he's seen it, sadly.  At least with the cap and mantle you save a ton of upfront cost and if things don't work out you're not leaving with as bad a taste in your mouth.  I'll just toss this out there as an extreme example, hoping we don't see more of this.

https://la-mason.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Edict_2018-2.pdf

http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2018/08/gl-of-louisiana-withdraws-recognition.html


----------



## Warrior1256 (Aug 27, 2020)

john riverbank said:


> The uniforms are a huge turn off for many,


For me the uniform was actually part of what attracted me to the Knights Templar as well as the drill and sword work...the military like aspect.


john riverbank said:


> Considering lots of commanderies have issues having enough people to open i'd think they would budge on this.


True, many Commanderies, like other aspects of Masonry, have trouble getting and keeping members. I'm luck to belong to two Commanderies that are going strong.


----------



## john riverbank (Aug 29, 2020)

Warrior1256 said:


> For me the uniform was actually part of what attracted me to the Knights Templar as well as the drill and sword work...the military like aspect.
> 
> True, many Commanderies, like other aspects of Masonry, have trouble getting and keeping members. I'm luck to belong to two Commanderies that are going strong.


So I guess those of us who dislike how Commandery is can just sit back and watch the invisible hand of the market take care of things as well as the bad aspects of the craft either work itself out or go kaput.  Works for me.


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 29, 2020)

john riverbank said:


> So I guess those of us who dislike how Commandery is can just sit back and watch the invisible hand of the market take care of things as well as the bad aspects of the craft either work itself out or go kaput.  Works for me.


To be more precise, Commandery in your area.


----------



## john riverbank (Aug 30, 2020)

Glen Cook said:


> To be more precise, Commandery in your area.


That's exactly what's happening too, the local ones are combining due to low turnout, that was pre-covid too.  

I see on your profile UGLE, wish they did over here like they do there, they do cap, mantle and the cool tunics.  How is York Rite over there?


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 30, 2020)

john riverbank said:


> That's exactly what's happening too, the local ones are combining due to low turnout, that was pre-covid too.
> 
> I see on your profile UGLE, wish they did over here like they do there, they do cap, mantle and the cool tunics.  How is York Rite over there?


Well, my point wasn’t clear. Some US  commanderies do cap and mantle. 

No York Rite in England. Chapter, R&S, and Preceptory are separate. They have diminished numbers.


----------



## john riverbank (Aug 30, 2020)

Glen Cook said:


> Well, my point wasn’t clear. Some US  commanderies do cap and mantle.
> 
> No York Rite in England. Chapter, R&S, and Preceptory are separate. They have diminished numbers.



Ops my mistake.  A brother I know in the midwest is planning on a dual membership, the Commandery out there is quite active and does cap and mantle.  
Think what gets me is it mirrors the other orders such as the Order of Malta, Order of St. Lazarus who use really sharp looking mantles.  Correct me if I'm wrong here but those were considered church vestments weren't they?  If you're going to be part of a church order, I'd think you would dawn something more, well, churchy.  

Huh, that's a shame but I'm not suprised.  From what I've read the Church of England is having issues with people not showing up, would make sense that something that is Christian based would also reflect that.


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 30, 2020)

A mantle was in the medieval period not limited to clergy. 

I would not consider KT a church order. 

The decrease in fraternal numbers is not limited to KT, and so I would not think it is a matter of Christianity. I do think that participation in active worship tracks participation in the fraternity.


----------



## Elexir (Aug 30, 2020)

john riverbank said:


> Ops my mistake.  A brother I know in the midwest is planning on a dual membership, the Commandery out there is quite active and does cap and mantle.
> Think what gets me is it mirrors the other orders such as the Order of Malta, Order of St. Lazarus who use really sharp looking mantles.  Correct me if I'm wrong here but those were considered church vestments weren't they?  If you're going to be part of a church order, I'd think you would dawn something more, well, churchy.
> 
> Huh, that's a shame but I'm not suprised.  From what I've read the Church of England is having issues with people not showing up, would make sense that something that is Christian based would also reflect that.



The order of Malta, Order of St Lazarus etc. are chilvaric orders and not church orders. They bestow a knighthood to their members but no churchly authority. An example is Edward Blom who is a commander of The *Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem* wich is a catholic order but he writes cookbooks and is married and have children.
Its best to avoid draging them into disscusions of freemasonry to be honest. We might have been inspired by them but they are to diffrent for it to make sense.

Except for the order of Charles XIII wich is a chilvaric order only given to masons but we swedes are wierd....


----------



## john riverbank (Aug 30, 2020)

Elexir said:


> The order of Malta, Order of St Lazarus etc. are chilvaric orders and not church orders. They bestow a knighthood to their members but no churchly authority. An example is Edward Blom who is a commander of The *Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem* wich is a catholic order but he writes cookbooks and is married and have children.
> Its best to avoid draging them into disscusions of freemasonry to be honest. We might have been inspired by them but they are to diffrent for it to make sense.
> 
> Except for the order of Charles XIII wich is a chilvaric order only given to masons but we swedes are wierd....



The Catholic Order of Malta and Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem are staunchly Catholic, especially the former, knew a member IRL.  Thanks for the correction, i'll keep that in mind.  

Care to explain why, or is it one of those things that may cause arguments among brothers?


----------



## Warrior1256 (Aug 31, 2020)

john riverbank said:


> So I guess those of us who dislike how Commandery is can just sit back and watch the invisible hand of the market take care of things as well as the bad aspects of the craft either work itself out or go kaput. Works for me.


Works for me as well.


----------



## Benjamin Baxter (Feb 11, 2022)

I didn’t care for the uniform until I had it all assembled. I was given one from a closet at commandery as a loan. I started to get my uniform out together in pieces. It took me a while to collect it a piece at a time. Once I got it all together and it was mine I started to like it. Not gonna lie, commandery uniforms from start to finish are pricey to buy all of it. 

My home commandery does not participate in any drill except the little bit in opening and closing. I wouldn’t even call that drill. So, I decided to plural with a really active commandery in a bigger town and have joined their drill team. We practice weekly and can see the allure of a good drill team. The amount of time it takes to get good as a team at drill has to lead to some great friend ships and fellowship. 


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry Mobile


----------



## coachn (Feb 11, 2022)




----------



## dalinkou (Feb 12, 2022)

coachn said:


> View attachment 6885


Brother - that is funny.  I simply have nothing to add.


----------

