# Traditional Observance Lodges



## BullDozer Harrell (May 11, 2017)

"I am excited about the current movement of the Craft back toward education and the study of the Craft’s more esoteric aspects. I hope we one day reach the goal of bringing Freemasonry back to a plane of practicing and conferring knowledge regarding man’s spiritual transcendence"
The Initiatic Experience by Robert Herd, pg 161, Kindle edition

I'm wondering about this so-called prior era of Masonry when Brothers practiced a conscious working of ritual? I haven't found any evidence that Masons from 1717 onwards have ever worked Masonic rituals in Regular Lodges that confer knowledge about our spiritual nature. Am i alone?


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## Ripcord22A (May 11, 2017)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> "I am excited about the current movement of the Craft back toward education and the study of the Craft’s more esoteric aspects. I hope we one day reach the goal of bringing Freemasonry back to a plane of practicing and conferring knowledge regarding man’s spiritual transcendence"
> The Initiatic Experience by Robert Herd, pg 161, Kindle edition
> 
> I'm wondering about this so-called prior era of Masonry when Brothers practiced a conscious working of ritual? I haven't found any evidence that Masons from 1717 onwards have ever worked Masonic rituals in Regular Lodges that confer knowledge about our spiritual nature. Am i alone?


Every one of our rituals do.  Its all in how you, the individual brother, interpret them.  Im a member if s TO lodge, and having been Raised in a non TO lodge, participated in degrees in both TO and NON TO(from several jurisdictions) lodges i can tell you that TO lodges are much more rewarding!

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## Bloke (May 12, 2017)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> .....I haven't found any evidence that Masons from 1717 onwards have ever worked Masonic rituals in Regular Lodges that confer knowledge about our spiritual nature. Am i alone?



Rituals vary, but I disagree. I think it's there, esp in our third degree, you get a veneer of it when you pass through the degree, but as time goes on, it becomes more evident. And important. But Freemasonry speaks to different people in different ways (and at different times); that's part of the beauty of it...


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## chrmc (May 12, 2017)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> "I am excited about the current movement of the Craft back toward education and the study of the Craft’s more esoteric aspects. I hope we one day reach the goal of bringing Freemasonry back to a plane of practicing and conferring knowledge regarding man’s spiritual transcendence"
> The Initiatic Experience by Robert Herd, pg 161, Kindle edition
> 
> I'm wondering about this so-called prior era of Masonry when Brothers practiced a conscious working of ritual? I haven't found any evidence that Masons from 1717 onwards have ever worked Masonic rituals in Regular Lodges that confer knowledge about our spiritual nature. Am i alone?



I'll have to disagree as well. All of our rituals and traditions are symbols that transfer knowledge or a spiritual nature. I almost think it's hard to see it any other way, but would love to hear your viewpoint. 

If you want to dig a layer deeper and start understanding the symbolism the books by Wilmhurst are a good place to start. The meaning of Masonry is an excellent read.


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## Keith C (May 12, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Every one of our rituals do.  Its all in how you, the individual brother, interpret them.  Im a member if s TO lodge, and having been Raised in a non TO lodge, participated in degrees in both TO and NON TO(from several jurisdictions) lodges i can tell you that TO lodges are much more rewarding!
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app



May I ask what it is you find more rewarding?

 There is a TO lodge not too far from me, one of two I am aware of in PA and I am curious about the differences but have not, as yet, reached out to them to visit.  As we go Dark at the end of June in PA it will have to wait until the fall,


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## Warrior1256 (May 12, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Im a member if s TO lodge, and having been Raised in a non TO lodge, participated in degrees in both TO and NON TO(from several jurisdictions) lodges i can tell you that TO lodges are much more rewarding!


Could you give me a brief rundown on the differences in a traditional lodge and a TO?


Keith C said:


> I am curious about the differences


Same here.


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## Ripcord22A (May 12, 2017)

Keith C said:


> May I ask what it is you find more rewarding?
> 
> There is a TO lodge not too far from me, one of two I am aware of in PA and I am curious about the differences but have not, as yet, reached out to them to visit.  As we go Dark at the end of June in PA it will have to wait until the fall,


More focus on the esoteric and learning. Bills and all that crud is dealt with in committee so that meetings are all about the workings of the Craft.  Dress code is tux or dark suit.  We process in to lodge and then end every meeting with the chain of union.  Our last meeting we had the DGM give a talk on Makeys rules of order...weve had talks on Satanism, Kabalah, weve had the Chief Adept of the NM Rosecrucian College give a talk on a paper he wrote called Piercing the Vale, it was about how man can "pierce the vale" between us and God!  Its just amazing stuff!

I have a brother in NM that was raised in Lancaster lodge who was recently back in PA and went to a TO lodge there, I've reached out to him to get the name of the lodge for you...he told me that the experience there was Amazing!

But as with all things FreeMasonic....experiences WILL vary!

Edit: KITE AND KEY LODGE, ALLENTOWN PA

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## CLewey44 (May 13, 2017)

Keith C said:


> May I ask what it is you find more rewarding?
> 
> There is a TO lodge not too far from me, one of two I am aware of in PA and I am curious about the differences but have not, as yet, reached out to them to visit.  As we go Dark at the end of June in PA it will have to wait until the fall,



Bro. Keith, I'd go if I were you. Not saying your current lodge is not fulfilling but it's how masonry should always be imo.


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## chrmc (May 13, 2017)

Keith C said:


> May I ask what it is you find more rewarding?
> 
> There is a TO lodge not too far from me, one of two I am aware of in PA and I am curious about the differences but have not, as yet, reached out to them to visit.  As we go Dark at the end of June in PA it will have to wait until the fall,



I would say that with TO lodges you most often find a completely different approach to the Craft. Focus is much more on making it an initiatic experience focused on the candidate that is mean to transform his life through the degrees and education. TO lodges also often focus on higher standards in the ritual, dress and approach. 
Some people like that and you should definitely check it out.


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## Brother_Steve (May 13, 2017)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> "I am excited about the current movement of the Craft back toward education and the study of the Craft’s more esoteric aspects. I hope we one day reach the goal of bringing Freemasonry back to a plane of practicing and conferring knowledge regarding man’s spiritual transcendence"
> The Initiatic Experience by Robert Herd, pg 161, Kindle edition
> 
> I'm wondering about this so-called prior era of Masonry when Brothers practiced a conscious working of ritual? I haven't found any evidence that Masons from 1717 onwards have ever worked Masonic rituals in Regular Lodges that confer knowledge about our spiritual nature. Am i alone?


Explore when the two degrees of freemasonry became three. What was taught before the third degree came about? The seven liberal arts was the standard of education from medieval times to recent modern times. At first it was taught by the church in 'universities.' All the explanations for these sciences had Diety as their root.

 Masons could have met in secret and possibly discussed scientific origins of such things. They met in secret because the punishment for teaching scientific origins could cost you your life. As an example people who started to question the firmament were burned at the stake. Galileo served out the rest of his life under house arrest after recanting his claims.

 Think of the Royal Society and their embrace of science that disregarded religious reasons for what is. It had the political clout to not suffer the wrath of the church. Charles Darwin for example is buried at westminseter Abby  because of political pull by the society.

Logic directs us how to form clear and distinct ideas of things....

Never stop learning. That was the underlying message I got from the degrees of freemasonry. (the 2nd is my favorite)


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## Warrior1256 (May 13, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> More focus on the esoteric and learning. Bills and all that crud is dealt with in committee so that meetings are all about the workings of the Craft.


Sounds great!


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## Bloke (May 14, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> More focus on the esoteric and learning. Bills and all that crud is dealt with in committee so that meetings are all about the workings of the Craft.  Dress code is tux or dark suit.  We process in to lodge and then end every meeting with the chain of union.  Our last meeting we had the DGM give a talk on Makeys rules of order...weve had talks on Satanism, Kabalah, weve had the Chief Adept of the NM Rosecrucian College give a talk on a paper he wrote called Piercing the Vale, it was about how man can "pierce the vale" between us and God!  Its just amazing stuff!
> 
> I have a brother in NM that was raised in Lancaster lodge who was recently back in PA and went to a TO lodge there, I've reached out to him to get the name of the lodge for you...he told me that the experience there was Amazing!
> 
> ...



Kite and Key...., Rip, if interested, I have detail on why the lodge was founded. The cool story I tell about the American Freemason who I swapped Master Mason pins with is now a PM of Kite and Key. He's promised to fly me to the States when he wins the lottery. I'm still waiting.... 

If readers want to know about TO Lodges, the Masonic Restoration Restoration society is a great resource 
http://www.masonicrestorationfoundation.org/


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## coachn (May 14, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> Explore when the two degrees of freemasonry became three. What was taught before the third degree came about?



http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2017/03/a-brother-asks-what-is-highest-degree.html



Brother_Steve said:


> The seven liberal arts was the standard of education from medieval times to recent modern times. At first it was taught by the church in 'universities.' All the explanations for these sciences had Diety as their root.
> 
> Masons could have met in secret and possibly discussed scientific origins of such things. They met in secret because the punishment for teaching scientific origins could cost you your life. As an example people who started to question the firmament were burned at the stake. Galileo served out the rest of his life under house arrest after recanting his claims.
> 
> ...


But whatever you do, don't ever assume that Freemason (that was created by the Grand Lodge Era; 1717-ish) is a continuation of the Stonecraft Masonry of much of its lore, lexicon and symbols is modeled after.


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## Warrior1256 (May 14, 2017)

coachn said:


> But whatever you do, don't ever assume that Freemason (that was created by the Grand Lodge Era; 1717-ish) is a continuation of the Stonecraft Masonry of much of its lore, lexicon and symbols is modeled after.


Got it. Interesting stuff!


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## coachn (May 14, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Got it. Interesting stuff!


Yep.  And if you assume they are connected, you'll mislead yourself into believing a whole bunch of rubbish.


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## Ripcord22A (May 14, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Kite and Key...., Rip, if interested, I have detail on why the lodge was founded. The cool story I tell about the American Freemason who I swapped Master Mason pins with is now a PM of Kite and Key. He's promised to fly me to the States when he wins the lottery. I'm still waiting....
> 
> If readers want to know about TO Lodges, the Masonic Restoration Restoration society is a great resource
> http://www.masonicrestorationfoundation.org/


Small Masonic World.  Ive got a couple pins for ya bro just gotta get around to sending them

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## Derek Harvey (May 14, 2017)

I'm fairly new to freemasonry.  I'm a master mason. I don't know much yet. What is a TO lodge?

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## Derek Harvey (May 14, 2017)

Lol oh traditional observance .hence the title of the topic. Man what a blonde moment. 

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## Bloke (May 14, 2017)

Derek Harvey said:


> Lol oh traditional observance .hence the title of the topic. Man what a blonde moment.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G360T1 using My Freemasonry mobile app



A TO seems a lot like our standard good lodge here, plus a bit more esotericia. A member of Kite and Key and I used to talk a lot and despite the fact he's gazillion miles away, i still think of him as a dear friend. When talking TO, America's often talk "European Concept Lodge" where the South (Festive Board) is very important, as is excellence in all things. Kent Henderson of Australia seemed to be often talked about in this conversation, esp for his lodge at Geelong, Lodge Epicurean.. .. but that was kinda just a duplicate of Lodge of the Golden Fleece (dinner cost x 4 x5 or x6 of a pub meal, expensive dues, orchestra in South, meets 6 times per year etc). Amicus is another such Lodge, and there is a new one from a few years ago, but not sure how its going..

The big discussions were all around the quality. Quality of
Food/South
Candidates
Officers
Ritual
Education
Programs.

Here, such lodges are often called "Dinning Lodges"... but many elements of what Americans call "European Lodges" are standard here in Australia ..  a Dinning Lodge just tends to have really good food. They also tend to have good ritual, often because they're a second lodge and people, including MMs bring their experience gained in other lodges to the Dinning Lodge. Oh, Ladies in the South at all meetings... that's typical of these lodges
... not too sure where TO got too on that...

How often lodges should meet is often a big part of the discussion . We meet once a month, our Dinning Lodges often meet every 2 months, but that makes it hard to advance candidates. Normally, lodges meet here once per month. I've got no idea how lodges meeting weekly find the time to rehearse. My mother lodge went away this weekend and initiated a new Bro. We'd rehearsed twice for it over 2 evening representings about 5.5 hours rehearsing; I've got no idea how lodges meeting weekly would find the time to do that, but I guess like all things.... you just do it...


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## Warrior1256 (May 14, 2017)

coachn said:


> Yep. And if you assume they are connected, you'll mislead yourself into believing a whole bunch of rubbish.


Wait a minute.....are you saying.......that we are not......descended from the Knights Templar????!!!!!!! (gasp)


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## coachn (May 14, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Wait a minute.....are you saying.......that we are not......descended from the Knights Templar????!!!!!!! (gasp)


Yep.  I am indeed.  And much much more.


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## MarkR (May 15, 2017)

He's saying that we're not descended from the stone mason lodges of Great Britain.  I'd love to see him debate Bob Cooper on that topic.


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## coachn (May 15, 2017)

MarkR said:


> He's saying that *we're not descended from the stone mason lodges of Great Britain*.


Yes Brother Mark.  That is *exactly* what I am saying.  And that "he" is Brother John S. Nagy for future reference.


MarkR said:


> I'd love to see him debate Bob Cooper on that topic.


I don't think Brother Bob would argue with me on this.  It's pretty clear what we do now is not even remotely related to Speculative Masonry as the organization as a whole has so elegantly defined it. 

However, describing what we do, it is abundantly clear that we are a Total-Immersion, Theatrically-Based, Alternative-Reality Role-Playing Society with a Moral Purpose _which has taken from Stonecraft its Lore, Lexicon and Symbols as our backdrops and props in our morality plays, lectures and general interactions_; well, at least at the blue lodge level.  

Any resemblance to Stonecraft is purely contrived to add to the illusion.

This all started in and around the modern Grand Lodge Era circa 1717-ish.

Beyond the Blue Lodge Arena, other _Lore, Lexicon and Symbols are used for our backdrops and props in our morality plays._


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## Warrior1256 (May 15, 2017)

coachn said:


> Any resemblance to Stonecraft is purely contrived to add to the illusion.


Sounds reasonable.


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## coachn (May 15, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Sounds reasonable.


It also explains why there are SO MANY inconsistencies within Craft lore, history and alike.  

It's simply either bad script writing (do to ignorance on the part of the researchers who put it together*) OR the writers were deliberately trying to make a point that went way over the heads of those who simply didn't realize it was all fabricated. 

* One example: Cowans are NOT pretenders to the Craft.  They were Master Rough Masons, they Served Apprenticeships, they  had Apprentices who learned from them, and they were members within many Craft lodges prior to the Grand Lodge Era.  Only after knowing this and doing further research does one begin to see the true reason for keeping them out of the lodge.


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## Keith C (May 15, 2017)

Great discussions all.  

Kite and Key is the TO Lodge that is fairly close to me and I am considering visiting come September.  I am not sure how involved I can be while I am going through the line towards the East in my lodge.  Learning all the work is quite a challenge.


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## Ripcord22A (May 15, 2017)

coachn said:


> * One example: Cowans are NOT pretenders to the Craft.  They were Master Rough Masons, they Served Apprenticeships, they  had Apprentices who learned from them, and they were members within many Craft lodges prior to the Grand Lodge Era.  Only after knowing this and doing further research does one begin to see the true reason for keeping them out of the lodge.



Brother- could you expand on this more?  I did a quick bit of googling and found that a cowan was some one that "built without mortar" and became a stonemason without proper training....

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## coachn (May 15, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Brother- could you expand on this more?  I did a quick bit of googling and found that a cowan was some one that "built without mortar" and became a stonemason without proper training...


It's most unfortunate that almost everything you'll come across about Cowans is polluted by Freemasonic influence.  When you filter out the Freemasonic rubbish, you begin to see that there's more to it than what has been influenced by our Fraternal chatter.

You can get a nice overview here: http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-hole-story.html


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## Warrior1256 (May 15, 2017)

coachn said:


> You can get a nice overview here: http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-hole-story.html


Very informative coachn. Thank you for this clarification. I had no idea of the true meaning. I just took cowan to mean pretender.


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## coachn (May 15, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Very informative coachn. Thank you for this clarification. I had no idea of the true meaning. I just took cowan to mean pretender.


The Craft are trained to believe Cowans are Pretenders.  Without further research, they shall likely die not knowing any better.


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## Bloke (May 15, 2017)

KITE AND KEY Lodge in PA

Meets 4th Wed of the month...next year 3rd wed of the month. Meetings start at 7 pm.


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## MarkR (May 16, 2017)

The first Schaw Statutes of 1598 (governing the conduct of Scottish Masons’ Lodges) uses the term in a way that makes clear that the term was known to Scots of that era.  §15 says “No master or fellow of craft shall accept any cowan to work in his society or company, nor send any of his servants to work with cowans, under the penalty of twenty pounds as often as any person offends in this matter.” So we see that well over 400 years ago, the term cowan had meaning to Masons, and that a cowan was someone to be avoided.  But what did the term mean?  Jamieson’s dictionary of the Scottish language (1st Edition) (http://www.scotsdictionary.com/) defines a cowan as follows: “A term of contempt, applied to one who does the work of a mason, but has not been regularly bred. . . Also used to denote one who builds dry [without use of mortar] walls, otherwise denominated a dry-diker.”


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## coachn (May 16, 2017)

MarkR said:


> The first Schaw Statutes of 1598 (governing the conduct of Scottish Masons’ Lodges) uses the term in a way that makes clear that the term was known to Scots of that era.  §15 says “No master or fellow of craft shall accept any cowan to work in his society or company, nor send any of his servants to work with cowans, under the penalty of twenty pounds as often as any person offends in this matter.” So we see that well over 400 years ago, the term cowan had meaning to Masons, and that a cowan was someone to be avoided.  But what did the term mean?  Jamieson’s dictionary of the Scottish language (1st Edition) (http://www.scotsdictionary.com/) defines a cowan as follows: “A term of contempt, applied to one who does the work of a mason, but has not been regularly bred. . . Also used to denote one who builds dry [without use of mortar] walls, otherwise denominated a dry-diker.”


Yeah, I ran into this too at the very beginning of my research efforts and would have stopped there had I accepted it like most of the stuff offered up to justify our Craft attitudes.  However, I did not stop there and I am glad that I did not.

I believe you'll find some tremendous historical references and insights in "Freeman and Cowan", Volume XXI Ars Quatuor Coronatorum that explain the local infighting that caused this statute effort was not usual and not universal.  It was likely used by an ignorant speculative Freemason to justify exemptions.


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## MarkR (May 17, 2017)

coachn said:


> It was likely used by an ignorant speculative Freemason to justify exemptions.


In 1598?


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## coachn (May 17, 2017)

MarkR said:


> In 1598?


You mean the date that was followed by an inconvenient [?]

"The Oxford International Dictionary of the English Language gives the following definition of the word “Cowan”:

Cowan - 1598 [?] 1. Sc. One who does the work of a mason, but has not been apprenticed to the trade. 2. Hence, One uninitiated in the secrets of Freemasonry 1707. 3. slang.  A sneak, eavesdropper."​There's a lot more information and resources available on this today than was available in the past.  It is clear that what was put down is NOT the hole story  as it clearly conflicts with the fact that Cowans were part of stonecraft lodges, were masters of their trade and were paid by the craft within these lodges.


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## Keith C (May 17, 2017)

Bloke said:


> KITE AND KEY Lodge in PA
> 
> Meets 4th Wed of the month...next year 3rd wed of the month. Meetings start at 7 pm.



Thanks!  that complicates matters as we usually do degrees the 3rd Wednesday.


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## Bloke (May 17, 2017)

Keith C said:


> Thanks!  that complicates matters as we usually do degrees the 3rd Wednesday.


Please go..... i never get an independent  opinion of the lodge..... and we might finally get that PM (whose name is on the warrant) here..... i've tried trash talk, praise and begging without luck. I'm starting to think he doesn't love me any more....


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## MarkR (May 18, 2017)

coachn said:


> You mean the date that was followed by an inconvenient [?]


I don't understand what you are saying here.  Are you saying that the Schaw Statutes of 1598 aren't from 1598?  I've never seen anyone else question the date of the Schaw Statutes.


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## coachn (May 18, 2017)

MarkR said:


> I don't understand what you are saying here.


Yes.  I can see that you don't.  The "date" is followed by a bracketed question mark ([?]) in the dictionary that denotes the definitions used.  This indicates to researchers and students alike that the date is "questionable". In this case, "inconvenient" for those who want it to be something that is unquestionably accurate; of which it is deemed unworthy.


MarkR said:


> Are you saying that the Schaw Statutes of 1598 aren't from 1598?


I am not.

*What I am saying:* _People writing these "definitions" are saying the date is questionable._

As far as the Schaw Statutes are concerned, it is one document from one area where a trade war was underway.  It was not the standard universally.  It does not reflect the overwhelming evidence that how Cowans were treated in that one area and how they were viewed in that one area was indeed how the were treated and viewed universally.


MarkR said:


> I've never seen anyone else question the date of the Schaw Statutes.


Perhaps you are taking things out of context this time and hence your first experience is due to an assumption on your part.

However, all of this is for not.  Freemasonic writers "borrowed" from Stonecraft lore, lexicon and symbols to fabricate their Morality plays; this is their only connection.  Their plays are allegorical; they are not factual or historical. 

The use of "Cowans" within ritual has caused many to seek justification for keeping them off that have nothing to do with the original allegorical intent.

Hence we have additional lore, definitions and such that sprang up as a result of ignorant and well-meaning members trying to further justify its use that has noting to do with the allegorical intent.

In other words, Cowans are not pretenders.  They are members of the lodge who do not Square their Work, do not Fabricate their own Cement and only spread that Cement (at an Ell's height) when supervised.  And the society has many of them in many lodges spread out around the world.

But if you want to quibble about stonecraft statues enforced in a relatively small area and dates, have at it.  All it will do is distract those who could benefit from some serious and beneficial learning.


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## Zack (May 18, 2017)

Brother John, what is"at an El's height"?
Thanks.


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## coachn (May 18, 2017)

Zack said:


> Brother John, what is"at an El's height"?
> Thanks.


You'll find your "Ell" information here Brother Zack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ell 
You'll also find its reference in relation to Cowans here (on page 197; first paragraph midway down): http://www.tbm100.org/Lib/Ars08.pdf


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## Brother JC (May 19, 2017)

For those unfamiliar with TO, the following website is your best place to start:
http://www.masonicrestorationfoundation.org/


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## Bloke (May 19, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> For those unfamiliar with TO, the following website is your best place to start:
> http://www.masonicrestorationfoundation.org/


That's a great link for understanding TO Lodges and the MRF which advocates for them.

Advocates  ( and we're talking almost a decade ago) used to often talk of some specific lodges here, esp Golden Fleece.

If interested "Back to the future" was another link which used to get circulated 
http://kenthenderson.com.au/m_papers01.html


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## Warrior1256 (May 20, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> For those unfamiliar with TO, the following website is your best place to start:
> http://www.masonicrestorationfoundation.org/


Cool site, thanks.


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## Illuminatio (May 23, 2017)

Every time these lodges come up, it's just depressing knowing there are none anywhere even remotely close to me and that I will likely never get to visit one, much less be a part of one. From everything I've heard and read, to me at least, it sounds like the Freemasonry I had envisioned when my interest was initially piqued.


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## Ripcord22A (May 23, 2017)

ShawnC said:


> Every time these lodges come up, it's just depressing knowing there are none anywhere even remotely close to me and that I will likely never get to visit one, much less be a part of one. From everything I've heard and read, to me at least, it sounds like the Freemasonry I had envisioned when my interest was initially piqued.


Well, you can do as we did in my lodge in NM, and start making moves to align with the TO movement, and once you meet enough of the tennants apply eith the Masonic Restoration foundation for recognition, takes about 2 years of hard work

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## Warrior1256 (May 23, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Well, you can do as we did in my lodge in NM, and start making moves to align with the TO movement, and once you meet enough of the tennants apply eith the Masonic Restoration foundation for recognition, takes about 2 years of hard work


Wow! Didn't know that this could be done. Interesting!


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## Illuminatio (May 23, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Well, you can do as we did in my lodge in NM, and start making moves to align with the TO movement, and once you meet enough of the tennants apply eith the Masonic Restoration foundation for recognition, takes about 2 years of hard work
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app



I don't see anything on their website about meeting enough tenants and applying with them for recognition. It says they simply provide educational support. I assume you just mean recognition in that they list your lodge on their website?


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## Bloke (May 23, 2017)

ShawnC said:


> I don't see anything on their website about meeting enough tenants and applying with them for recognition. It says they simply provide educational support. I assume you just mean recognition in that they list your lodge on their website?



Who cares about a label, you're just looking for a result and the TO framework a  tool to get that result.  Many freemasons use the MRF as a shopping list, selecting only what they want. I did that in 1 Lodge- high quality (esp food) festive board and excellence in ritual.. 

One of the tricks when working with conservative members (PMs, but not always) is often tiny undetected but accumulative change. Reform rather than Revolution- but sometimes one is needed over the other, but think which will work best and which you have  the power to drive and which the lodge will most benefit from. 

Reform rather than revolution also show what they respond to, because despite the rhetoric  (including mine) there's lots of flogging dead horses in lodge...


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## Ripcord22A (May 23, 2017)

ShawnC said:


> I don't see anything on their website about meeting enough tenants and applying with them for recognition. It says they simply provide educational support. I assume you just mean recognition in that they list your lodge on their website?


Yes..if you look under New Mexico there's only one lodge listed...that's the lodge I belong to.

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## chrmc (May 24, 2017)

ShawnC said:


> I don't see anything on their website about meeting enough tenants and applying with them for recognition. It says they simply provide educational support. I assume you just mean recognition in that they list your lodge on their website?



The MRF has a bit of an interesting history. When they set up they were trying to act as a clearing house for TO best practices, and also help lodges get "certified." Now as you can imagine, this ruffled the feathers of a number of Grand Lodges and Grand Masters, who believed that the only one any lodge should be responsible towards, is the Grand Lodge. Because of this MRF have backed off on their approach, but I still think they want some information in order to get listed on their site. 

Their main focus is really their yearly conference, which is usually quite excellent. Would recommend going if you guys ever get a chance.


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## Illuminatio (May 24, 2017)

chrmc said:


> The MRF has a bit of an interesting history. When they set up they were trying to act as a clearing house for TO best practices, and also help lodges get "certified." Now as you can imagine, this ruffled the feathers of a number of Grand Lodges and Grand Masters, who believed that the only one any lodge should be responsible towards, is the Grand Lodge. Because of this MRF have backed off on their approach, but I still think they want some information in order to get listed on their site.
> 
> Their main focus is really their yearly conference, which is usually quite excellent. Would recommend going if you guys ever get a chance.



Well that makes a bit more sense. I think it's completely understandable that some feathers would get ruffled in that situation, and I don't think they're wrong. Thanks!


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## BullDozer Harrell (May 27, 2017)

ShawnC said:


> Every time these lodges come up, it's just depressing knowing there are none anywhere even remotely close to me and that I will likely never get to visit one, much less be a part of one. From everything I've heard and read, to me at least, it sounds like the Freemasonry I had envisioned when my interest was initially piqued.


Well Brother, i'm not aware of your travel budget but maybe you can start to plan a visit to those lodges?

Personally i've found that when i wanted something strong enough, i made a way to fulfill my wish. 

If you reach out, you just might find help from a Brother who would facilitate your visit in some measure. 

It happens.


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## Warrior1256 (May 28, 2017)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> Personally i've found that when i wanted something strong enough, i made a way to fulfill my wish.


Good attitude!


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## JJones (May 29, 2017)

ShawnC said:


> I don't see anything on their website about meeting enough tenants and applying with them for recognition. It says they simply provide educational support. I assume you just mean recognition in that they list your lodge on their website?



They don't do this anymore, at least not last I heard. The problem they ran into with this is that by requiring lodges to meet certain requirements to gain recognition, the MRF starts to look and sound a lot like a Grand Lodge, which most established Grand Lodges would not be happy about.


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## Ripcord22A (May 29, 2017)

JJones said:


> They don't do this anymore, at least not last I heard. The problem they ran into with this is that by requiring lodges to meet certain requirements to gain recognition, the MRF starts to look and sound a lot like a Grand Lodge, which most established Grand Lodges would not be happy about.


Just last yr we got recognized

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## Bloke (Jun 5, 2017)

Bloke said:


> .....Kent Henderson of Australia seemed to be often talked about in this conversation, esp for his lodge at Geelong, Lodge Epicurean.. .. ...



I wrote the above on 15 May and I see Chris H mentioned Bro Kent in Freemasonry for Dummies Blog on 21 May

"Kent Henderson in Australia first noodled some of these ideas in a paper called _Back To the Future_ back in 1992, along the lines of a “European concept," and he and a handful of brethren established Lodge Epicurean 906 there"

See. I dont always talk sh@# 

http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/lodge-vitruvian-at-age-15.html
http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/lodge-vitruvian-at-age-15.html
_"We agreed to meet quarterly, not monthly. We also informally agreed that we would deliberately not accept more than 36 members, because a man can't truly get to know and care about more than three dozen members or so. "_

I didnt know that about Vitruvian, or I'd forgotten it. I'm always saying I a fan of small lodges.. largely because of the reason quoted  above..

"_Perhaps that is the most satisfying aspect of what Vitruvian's example has accomplished in these 15 official years in Indiana. Maybe we haven't turned the whole U.S. Masonic culture on its ear or solved every issue. But we are influencing the leaders of tomorrow to go home and make their own lodges the very best they can be, along whatever path that leads them. By doing so, a rising tide raises all boats - or lodges, as the case may be. And that is a success our little lodge has hopefully been a contributor to._"

As I say, evolution not revolution.. but the sort of thinking these lodges and groups like the MRF inspire a lot of Brothers to work at making their lodges places men want to be and bring their friends too.

Happy Belated B'day Vitruvian.


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