# Is Masonry "guilty" of teaching toleration?



## CajunTinMan (Nov 23, 2012)

I found this on the Waller Lodge AF&AM website and thought it was very fitting to many of the discussions about Freemasonry and Christianity.

Q: Is Masonry "guilty" of teaching toleration?


A: Yes. And proud of it! It seems a strange accusation, but anti-Masonic writers often charge that we accept people with many different religious viewpoints as Brothers. They are correct.


Jesus did not say to us, "A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another - as long as he goes to the same church you do, or if he belongs to the same political party."


In Romans 13: 8 -10 Jesus said "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fullfilled the law


In John 13: 34, 35 Jesus said "A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another as I have loved you.â€


Does â€œlove one anotherâ€ mean we should only love Baptists, or Methodists or some self appointed splinter preacher who makes a living by selling hatred literature.


Yet one anti-Masonic writer claims that this toleration is the blackest sin of Masonry. Toleration, he says, "springs from the pits of hell and from the father of lies, Lucifer."


When you consider what intolerance has produced in this world, the Inquisition, the massacre of the inhabitants of Jerusalem by the Crusaders, the burning of Protestants at the stake, the horrors of Hitler, the mass murders of Stalin, the "killing fields" of Cambodia -- it is hard to believe that toleration springs from the devil.


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## widows son (Nov 23, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

Thats awesome Cajun.


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## bnorthington (Nov 24, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

very well put.. I have had coworkers that are confessed anti masons.. they even have a club they have put together to discuss anti Masonic topics.. no matter what scripture I quote or good lesson I speak of, they are very stubborn in their theories.


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## widows son (Nov 24, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

That's brutal.


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## Trip (Nov 24, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

Great post.


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## brothermongelli (Nov 24, 2012)

Only those who persist in darkness claim that religious tolerance, and more specifically the idea that each faith contains some measure of Light, is a negative.  

Enjoy this quote from Manly P. Hall from THE LOST KEYS OF FREEMASONRY:

_The true Mason is not creed-bound. He realizes with the divine illumination of 
his lodge that as a Mason his religion must be universal: Christ, Buddha or 
Mohammed, the name means little, for he recognizes only the light and not the 
bearer. He worships at every shrine, bows before every altar, whether in temple, 
mosque or cathedral, realizing with his truer understanding the oneness of all 
spiritual truth. All true Masons know that they only are heathen who, having 
great ideals, do not live up to them. They know that all religions are but one 
story told in divers ways for peoples whose ideals differ but whose great 
purpose is in harmony with Masonic ideals. North, east, south and west stretch 
the diversities of human thought, and while the ideals of man apparently differ, 
when all is said and the crystallization of form with its false concepts is 
swept away, one basic truth remains: all existing things are Temple Builders, 
laboring for a single end. No true Mason can be narrow, for his Lodge is the 
divine expression of all broadness. There is no place for little minds in a 
great work."_


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## brothermongelli (Nov 24, 2012)

*Re: Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

And of course those of you who have read my article, "Lucifer and the Craft", which was first published in the November 2012 issue of Living Stones Masonic Magazine, will know what my opinion is concerning the comment about Lucifer!  See the republished article here:

http://theblazingstart.blogspot.com/2012/11/my-was-first-published-in-november-2012.html


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## widows son (Nov 24, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

Lucious-lucifer, Latin for light bearer, and light has always been associated with divine knowledge. Only a narrow minded superstitious person would see the term lucifer as a evil concept, which was due to Christianity deeming any symbol, idea, or philosophy that was not part of the Christian cannon, the work of Satan


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 24, 2012)

I read a lot of quotes of Mackey and Pike. I have read a lot of their work. But I don't agree with some of it. And that's ok, because Masonry is different for everyone. What I get out of Masonry might be completely different then what you may get out of it. We must not get locked into absolutes about what Masonry is. For me it is a constant reminder that I need to be of better service to Christ. For others it may be something complete different.


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 24, 2012)

Taken from suggested nondenominational Rotary club invocations:

So today I offer this prayer: Let us bow our heads:
Lord of the Universe, you have given most of mankind a strong desire to do good, to be honest, to serve others, and to faithfully fulfill their obligations to their neighbors.
Help us, as Rotarians and humans, to do good.
Help us, as Rotarians and humans, to be honest and ethical in all our dealings.
Help us, as Rotarians and humans, to serve others.
And help us, as Rotarians and humans, to faithfully fulfill our obligations as neighbors to our community, our nation, and the world. Amen. Joseph D. Coons, Bellingham WA

clubrunner.ca

I put this here to show that there are other clubs that respect tolerance. But then after searching the net I find that they have their attackers too.  (Mainly accusing them of being Masons).


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## widows son (Nov 25, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

Lol of course they are.


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## jvarnell (Nov 25, 2012)

*Re: Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*



widows son said:


> Lucious-lucifer, Latin for light bearer, and light has always been associated with divine knowledge. Only a narrow minded superstitious person would see the term lucifer as a evil concept, which was due to Christianity deeming any symbol, idea, or philosophy that was not part of the Christian cannon, the work of Satan


I wish you would be more tolrant of christianty.  Not all christain groups deemed anything satanic.


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## widows son (Nov 25, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

I never said that. But in medieval times the church deemed those teachings heretical, and has reverberated down to us today. And a narrow minded person, is anyone who chooses to be ignorant to the world around them, not just Christians. I am quite tolerant of Christianity, equal to every other faith and creed. And I only say things that are true when debating about Christianity or other faiths. I have no intention of slandering a brother or anyones faith or beliefs.


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 25, 2012)

Almost in contrast to what I have been saying. I also see people in here speak of all the different religions that are Masons. I keep seeing Buddhism in the list. This would be fundamentally wrong. Buddhism is not a monotheistic religion. They don't believe in the Fathhood of God.  It would be a violation of the Landmarks of Freemasonry. Does that make them a bad person? No. Am I being prejudice? No. It just is what it is.

Taken from The Buddhist Attitude to God

*by Dr V. A. Gunasekara*

Statement made to a 
Multi-religious Seminar

First Published: February 1993 
Second Edition: April 1997

The God-Concept and Buddhist Principles

Quite apart from explicit statements refuting the God-idea there is a fundamental incompatibility between the notion of God and basic Buddhist principles. We have already mentioned that God cannot be reconciled with the Buddhist notion of causality which is contained in the theory of "dependent origination" which is one of the discoveries of the Buddha during his enlightenment. Certainly nothing like this theory has been propounded prior to the Buddha. 
A fundamental Buddhist belief is that all phenomena without exemption (including all animate beings) have three essential characteristics. These are dukkha (explained above), anicca (impermanence), and anatta (insubstantiality, "no-soul"). The attributes of God are not consistent with these universal marks of existence. Thus God must be free from dukkha; he must be eternal (and hence not subject to anicca); finally he must have a distinct unchanging identity (and therefore lack the characteristic of anatta). 
Another concomitant of the God-idea that is fundamentally incompatible with Buddhism is the belief that God acts as the final judge and could determine if individuals go to heaven or hell. According to Buddhism the destination of individuals is determined by the karmic law which cannot be interfered by any external process. Only individuals can effect their karmic destinies; even a Buddha cannot "pardon" or otherwise interfere with the karmic process. In Buddhism there is simply no place for a God even if one were to exist. 
There is also no place for the notion of vicarious salvation, or atonement for human sins by a "suffering" God. The Buddha affirms that "by oneself is kamma done and by oneself is kamma undone". According to Buddhism no one (and this includes gods or God) can save another. This is a cardinal principle of the Buddha which cannot be reconciled with the declared attributes and actions of God. 
The Buddhist path to salvation is based on deeds (including mental culture through "meditation") not prayer. God appears to Buddhists to be a vain being expecting all others to pray to him and worship him. Indeed such prayer seems to be the most decisive factor in a person's salvation, not necessarily any good or bad deeds by him. But as mentioned above in Buddhism it is volitional action with determines the karma of an individual. 
There is no doubt some similarities in the moral codes of Buddhism and some theistic religions. Things like compassion are inculcated in all religions. But in Buddhism this does not arise from a heavenly dictate and there is no limitation in the exercise of these virtues as occurs in some theistic religion.


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## BryanMaloney (Nov 25, 2012)

brothermongelli said:


> The true Mason is not creed-bound. He realizes with the divine illumination of
> his lodge that as a Mason his religion must be universal: Christ, Buddha or
> Mohammed, the name means little, for he recognizes only the light and not the
> bearer. He worships at every shrine, bows before every altar, whether in temple,



If this is truly the doctrine of Masonry, then I cannot remain a Mason. If it is truly the doctrine that I must embrace the doctrines of all religions and reject Christ's unique status as the sole Savior.


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## BryanMaloney (Nov 25, 2012)

*Re: Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*



widows son said:


> I never said that. But in medieval times the church deemed those teachings heretical, and has reverberated down to us today. And a narrow minded person, is anyone who chooses to be ignorant to the world around them, not just Christians. I am quite tolerant of Christianity, equal to every other faith and creed. And I only say things that are true when debating about Christianity or other faiths. I have no intention of slandering a brother or anyones faith or beliefs.



No, you do not, you say many things that are false when speaking of Christianity. For example, your claim on this thread is false. The Church embraced many non-Christian sources of wisdom as "prefigurations" or "premonitions" of things to be revealed in the fullness of time. Since you are such an expert, you would already know this, especially about the Eastern Church, which was never run by Rome.


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 25, 2012)

brothermongelli said:


> _The true Mason is not creed-bound. He realizes with the divine illumination of
> his lodge that as a Mason his religion must be universal: Christ, Buddha or
> Mohammed, the name means little, for he recognizes only the light and not the
> bearer. He worships at every shrine, bows before every altar, whether in temple,
> ...


No that is not the true doctrine of Masonry. That is what Hall believed. I completely disagree with his doctrine. And I can. I am also a follower of Christ and I don't follow any other path. The Masonic Landmarks are simple. It is people that complicate everything. This is a fraternity, that believes in the fatherhood of God. I think there are some who try to make it a religion and they're pathway to Heaven. If they do then they fail. The light you find in Masonry is just light about Masonry. That light which leads you to Heaven comes from God and not Masonry. And Masonry does encourage you to seek that light. But it can't give it.


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## Brent Heilman (Nov 26, 2012)

My personal take on the Hall quote is that he believes that we, as Masons, must embrace the other religions. I don't think that he meant that we should follow them, just be tolerant of them. I follow Christ end of story. I don't follow Allah or any other religion's deity. I can make that choice, but since I am a Mason I must not only tolerate but be respectful of another Brother's choice. If we embrace another religion and take time to study it and the beliefs that it holds we may find our own faith enriched by it.


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 26, 2012)

I wonder why we do talk about religion in the lodge?  Lol


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 26, 2012)

My Brothers the reason I started this thread was to show what I believe is Christ telling us in his own words to be tolerant. Which is one of the things some anti masons have been attacking us on.  This was not to start a debate.  Widows Son was stating that because of ingnorance of understanding the statement about lucifer by Pike have been misinterpreted by Christians to mean something that it is not. This among other lies has caused a divisions in some churchs. We might be taking some of his words more defensively because he is not a Christian. There is a real reason that we don't discuss religion in lodge. And if we decide to debate religion out of lodge we must be prepared for opposing views, even within our on faith. And if we are to debate it with a Brother and it starts to cause discourse we are better off agreeing to disagree and drop the subject.


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## Brent Heilman (Nov 26, 2012)

I do agree with your opening post. I believe that Christ was saying be tolerant. "Love thy neighbor as thyself" has no exceptions written in.


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 26, 2012)

The point about Buddhism might be miss placed here, but in my research of different religious beliefs I have come across much information. Although we as Masons are to be tolerant we can't accept everyone.  Someone might be a good person in every way but that does not mean that they can qualify to be a Mason.  I am of course open to debate on this one and will respect any opinions.


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## jvarnell (Nov 26, 2012)

CajunTinMan said:


> My Brothers the reason I started this thread was to show what I believe is Christ telling us in his own words to be tolerant. Which is one of the things some anti masons have been attacking us on. This was not to start a debate. Widows Son was stating that because of ingnorance of understanding the statement about lucifer by Pike have been misinterpreted by Christians to mean something that it is not. This among other lies has caused a divisions in some churchs. We might be taking some of his words more defensively because he is not a Christian. There is a real reason that we don't discuss religion in lodge. And if we decide to debate religion out of lodge we must be prepared for opposing views, even within our on faith. And if we are to debate it with a Brother and it starts to cause discourse we are better off agreeing to disagree and drop the subject.



You are right CajunTinMan I do take things defensive when some one tell me what my beleifs are and then tell me they are wrong.  Most of the time the beleifs they tell me are mine ..... they are not


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## widows son (Nov 26, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

So Bryan, you are saying that Rome didnt condemn anything that wasn't part of its cannon? What about the Albigensian crusade? The inquisition? Or the fall of the Templars on false grounds? Or the condemnation of freemasonry?  Ask your pastor or priest what he thinks of lucifer, then tell me if he believes hes the "light bearer" or Satan. Ask him what he thinks of the 5 pointed star. If I am wrong on everything I've said about Christianity, then you should prove it, since you spear to be the expert on everything. I think your just saying I'm wrong because of your religious convictions and because you don't like me, which leads me to my next point. You can believe Christ is your saviour, and still be tolerant to other faiths. The quote from manly p hall that was posted about bowing to all altars is not literal, but the idea is to respect other people's ideas and beliefs, which you don't. IMO I could care less if you dont like me, ive never met you, so no skin off my back, but if you can't find it in your heart to live up to the idea of what a master mason is, (thats if you do know what it means) then you should have your apron taken away.


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## widows son (Nov 26, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

Remeber, What you believe and what the leaders of christianity or any faith believe, can be different things, and usually are. A christian just wants to be a peaceful Christian. But the leaders seem to want to control and call the shots. Same goes with Islam and Judaism.


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## widows son (Nov 26, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

A lot of you may think I'm intolerant to Christianity, but I'm not. My friends and family are christian and are good people because of it and I love them to death. But for me i went to a catholic school and Christianity was forced on me and the questions I posed to my teachers and priests were not answered at all, and sometimes were outright wrong and the same goes with my Protestant side of my family. Christianity is not for me. I don't think Jesus is
MY saviour, and I don't think he came back or will come back. I think what he preached is a beautiful concept, but IMO it didnt originate with christ. I'm not trying to offend anyone, this is my belief. If a person says I'm wrong, is because it's not their belief, or is it because the history writers got it wrong?


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## jvarnell (Nov 26, 2012)

*Re: Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*



widows son said:


> So Bryan, you are saying that Rome didnt condemn anything that wasn't part of its cannon? What about the Albigensian crusade? The inquisition? Or the fall of the Templars on false grounds? Or the condemnation of freemasonry? Ask your pastor or priest what he thinks of lucifer, then tell me if he believes hes the "light bearer" or Satan. Ask him what he thinks of the 5 pointed star. If I am wrong on everything I've said about Christianity, then you should prove it, since you spear to be the expert on everything. I think your just saying I'm wrong because of your religious convictions and because you don't like me, which leads me to my next point. You can believe Christ is your saviour, and still be tolerant to other faiths. The quote from manly p hall that was posted about bowing to all altars is not literal, but the idea is to respect other people's ideas and beliefs, which you don't. IMO I could care less if you dont like me, ive never met you, so no skin off my back, but if you can't find it in your heart to live up to the idea of what a master mason is, (thats if you do know what it means) then you should have your apron taken away.




Christianity is not just Rome,  Rome is the catholics.  Just because I am a christian doesen't mean I am a Catholic.  Also you seam to blame all bad thing in the Crudsads on Christians which is not fact.  I as a Christain do not follow any one that you think is a leader I guess.  I am a freeman and follow only what I think is write and good NO ONE or group  can not force me to to other wise.  If I did not beleive Masons were write and doing good things I would not be one.


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## jvarnell (Nov 26, 2012)

*Re: Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*



widows son said:


> A lot of you may think I'm intolerant to Christianity, but I'm not. My friends and family are christian and are good people because of it and I love them to death. But for me i went to a catholic school and Christianity was forced on me and the questions I posed to my teachers and priests were not answered at all, and sometimes were outright wrong and the same goes with my Protestant side of my family. Christianity is not for me. I don't think Jesus is
> MY saviour, and I don't think he came back or will come back. I think what he preached is a beautiful concept, but IMO it didnt originate with christ. I'm not trying to offend anyone, this is my belief. If a person says I'm wrong, is because it's not their belief, or is it because the history writers got it wrong?




No I just think you are confused about what a Christian is colored by what you have been told in school. (which is wrong)  

This is some of the stuff they teach you in school without telling you where it comes from.

“The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.” 
― Karl Marx 

“Religion is the opiate of the masses.” 
― Karl Marx, _Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right 

“Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.” 
― Karl Marx

“Democracy is the road to socialism.” 
― Karl Marx
_“From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.” 
― Karl Marx 



Also you are so wrong and with that last sentiance you are trying to shut down any critisum ofwhat you are saying but it won't work.  You are just looking at the wrong history writers.  You can come up with your own reality but that is only in your head.


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## widows son (Nov 26, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

Again, that is not the point I'm making. The mistakes of Rome have penetrated to the other sects of Christianity. YOU may not believe it but most others do. Look at fundamentalist Christianity. They say masonry is satans work, but clearly is not, and you obviously don't believe it, but people do. They also refute science, or change it to conform to their ideals but when the time comes when they need medical science to help cure their ailments, the story changes. The history books don't lie. The crusades in Europe only happened to suppress anything that wasn't in the roman cannon. Heretics. I'm glad that you don't follow religious leaders, but people do, and they influence a lot of peoples minds, including what lucifer means. If you study Latin, Lucifer which is Lucem Ferre, which means light bearer, which was used to describe the rising of Venus at dawn. In some culture such as those in skara brae in the Orkney archipelago had primitive temples, that had small dormer windows that allowed the morning light of Venus in. This was proven because Venus is the only light that shines through this dormer at a calculated rate.


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## widows son (Nov 26, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

I find it funny that all of your reference are from Karl Marx, who was a communist. I dont believe in communism, nor cult of personality.


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## widows son (Nov 26, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

And also bro. Varnell are you sayings beliefs are wrong?


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## jvarnell (Nov 26, 2012)

*Re: Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*



widows son said:


> And also bro. Varnell are you sayings beliefs are wrong?



The only thing I have said and I am saying is that your belief that I beleive something,......is wrong.  I really beleive that you beleive what you beleive, but don't tell me what you think I beleive because I a Christian.

I can tell you are a 20 something raging agenset the so called "machine", "man" and "Big Bussiness" but some day I beleive you will see enough of the world that tolarance of other's is understanding we are not all out to get you. 

I would love to show you how a christian capitalists from big business really make dessions and how we bend over backward to help people despite of them selfs.  I tolrate a lot of missconceptions everyday.


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## widows son (Nov 26, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

First off, I'm not telling you what to believe nor have I. I could really careless what you believe in bro. Varnell, I'm trying show that what was once deemed heretical, isn't at all once one looks in to the origin the matter. I am 26 years old. I'm not against the "man", "big business" or "raging against the machine" although I do like their music. These things are what make our
Societies so successful. My problem is when these groups abuse the system. Im all for capitalism and free enterprise, but not when a foreigner is I'm control of my money. Frankly bro. Varnell I don't want to see the world like you, or Christianity. I respect and tolerate Christianity despite what you say. I have had numerous conversations with Cajun about our beliefs and it's never disrespectful, and I think despite our beliefs we are good friends. ( we just gotta meet in person). My generation is very different from yours. I see the world differently than you do. Christianity IMO is not going to
Make me be more tolerant to other ideas. The choice I make to be tolerant is what makes me tolerant, and knowing why it's good to be tolerant is what keeps me from being intolerant. The beauty of masonry is that I can believe this and still call you brother.


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## widows son (Nov 26, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

I can also say I tolerate a lot of misconceptions too.


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## jvarnell (Nov 26, 2012)

*Re: Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*



widows son said:


> First off, I'm not telling you what to believe nor have I. I could really careless what you believe in bro. Varnell, I'm trying show that what was once deemed heretical, isn't at all once one looks in to the origin the matter. I am 26 years old. I'm not against the "man", "big business" or "raging against the machine" although I do like their music. These things are what make our
> Societies so successful. My problem is when these groups abuse the system. Im all for capitalism and free enterprise, but not when a foreigner is I'm control of my money. Frankly bro. Varnell I don't want to see the world like you, or Christianity. I respect and tolerate Christianity despite what you say. I have had numerous conversations with Cajun about our beliefs and it's never disrespectful, and I think despite our beliefs we are good friends. ( we just gotta meet in person). My generation is very different from yours. I see the world differently than you do. Christianity IMO is not going to
> Make me be more tolerant to other ideas. The choice I make to be tolerant is what makes me tolerant, and knowing why it's good to be tolerant is what keeps me from being intolerant. The beauty of masonry is that I can believe this and still call you brother.



I rage agenst the words "Deemed Heretical" and generalities like "Christianity IMO".  If some group said something once can minds and harts not be changed?  Also know of no one that can "make" you do anything.  The only person that can "make" you do anything is your self.  you can blame it on someone else but it is still you.  I am sorry for you that you don't want to see the world like me because I always see it as a full glass....sometimes it is half water and half air but always full.  And if you walked in my shoes you would see that capitalisam is the only way to liberty because you are the only one in control of your destiny and Masonary and Religion are the only way to give it bounds.

As we say here in the great Republic of Texas "We just got to keep it between the bar ditches"

Churchill-
"If you're not liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not conservative when you're older, you have no brain."

I think you have a lot of hart.


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## jvarnell (Nov 26, 2012)

*Re: Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*



widows son said:


> I can also say I tolerate a lot of misconceptions too.



The missconceptions I was aluding to was the oucupy groups in the US and how bad us BB guys are.  If you want to keep good jobs in the countery you have to let BB work with out being ham strung.  if you want to have to create new jobs because you have lost jobs you want to help small business.  If the goverment gets out of the way both will happen to save and create jobs.  Those that are evyous think the other is greedy but envy is just as bad as greed.


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 26, 2012)

My dear Brothers I love you both but this might be a conversation better discussed in private between two brothers and not in front of the profane.


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## widows son (Nov 26, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

Not a problem brother, it's been done. But back to the original topic of tolerance; we are required as masons to be tolerant of other beliefs, creeds and dogmas. That doesn't mean you have to follow or believe them. They all have a shred of truth, which if they didn't we would acknowledge them. Be a christian, and embrace it. Be a Muslim and embrace it. Be a Jew and embrace it. Even Buddha, although not monotheistic, still has lessons of peace and love among men and women alike. Let us embrace our OB, let us embrace our masonry. I think that quote by Bro. Manly p hall is bang on.


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 26, 2012)

You should respect each other and refrain from disputes; you should not, like water and oil, repel each other, but should, like milk and water, mingle together. 

 Buddha


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## widows son (Nov 26, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

Like a well whisked dressing.


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## widows son (Nov 26, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

All seriousness you are right. We are brothers. That's our common ground


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## brothermongelli (Nov 26, 2012)

In response to Brother Maloney's post ("If this is truly the doctrine of Masonry, then I cannot remain a Mason. If it is truly the doctrine that I must embrace the doctrines of all religions and reject Christ's unique status as the sole Savior.")

My Brother, the gist of Hall's statement expresses his belief that Light is to be found many places, not just in a single faith or philosophy.  You are, of course - as is any Mason - wholly free to reject this notion.  You may reject the idea that there is any Light to be had in Judaism or Islam or Hinduism...just as Brothers of those faits are free to reject Jesus Christ as a savior.  Recall, however, that a Lodge in Israel, for example, might have upon the alter the Torah...amongst those Jewish Brethren, none might hold any idea at all about Jesus as a savior.  In Turkey, you will find the Koran on the altar - in Islam, Jesus is given the status of a prophet - not savior.  Those Brothers are...Brothers.  Masonry does not dictate what your faith ought to be - just that you believe in a Supreme Being and in the immortal soul.


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## Blake Bowden (Nov 27, 2012)

Great thread..


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## jvarnell (Nov 27, 2012)

I see it as Masonry bring al race, creads and religions together.  Just because we have our own ideas of what is truth we need to understand that everyone else has what they call their truth also.  No one is trying to get you to change your truth.  When it comes to being a christian I just want to be able to defend my truth.  You are embracing there doctrines you are just saying that is there doctrine and mine is this.



brothermongelli said:


> In response to Brother Maloney's post ("If this is truly the doctrine of Masonry, then I cannot remain a Mason. If it is truly the doctrine that I must embrace the doctrines of all religions and reject Christ's unique status as the sole Savior.")
> 
> My Brother, the gist of Hall's statement expresses his belief that Light is to be found many places, not just in a single faith or philosophy. You are, of course - as is any Mason - wholly free to reject this notion. You may reject the idea that there is any Light to be had in Judaism or Islam or Hinduism...just as Brothers of those faits are free to reject Jesus Christ as a savior. Recall, however, that a Lodge in Israel, for example, might have upon the alter the Torah...amongst those Jewish Brethren, none might hold any idea at all about Jesus as a savior. In Turkey, you will find the Koran on the altar - in Islam, Jesus is given the status of a prophet - not savior. Those Brothers are...Brothers. Masonry does not dictate what your faith ought to be - just that you believe in a Supreme Being and in the immortal soul.


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## jvarnell (Nov 27, 2012)

Tolerance - noun - a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Nov 27, 2012)

The etymology of the word tolerance might offer some insight as well.  The word origin means "to suffer" or to suffer the opinion of another.  So as Masons we are not asking one to adopt the beliefs of another, but to suffer them as Brethren.  In other words that we offer hope, faith and most importantly charity (love) towards the man regardless of his choice of characterization of worship.

That being said, to the Brother who appeared willing to quit Freemasonry over a simple characterization of faith by one man, then maybe are not ready to be a Mason.


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## widows son (Nov 27, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

I agree frater. Bro. Varnell nobody was attacking your beliefs. I truly see why this is avoided in lodge.


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 27, 2012)

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> That being said, to the Brother who appeared willing to quit Freemasonry over a simple characterization of faith by one man, then maybe are not ready to be a Mason.


 I have mixed feelings on this statement.  Although I agree that one man's opinion doesn't determine what Masonry is.  And that sometimes opinions can be misunderstood.  I think it is very Masonic to put one's faith before everything else.  Even if that decision is based on misinformation.


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## widows son (Nov 27, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

I think the issue was recognizing that all religions are held dear to those who worship under them. Christ is the saviour to Christians but not to non Christians, recognizing that Christians aren't the only ones in the world. the statement was made that, the brother does not feel he should "bow down to every alter" which he shouldn't as that would be contradictory to his own belief. But the quote by bro. Hall obviously has been misinterpreted. He is saying to respect and tolerate other religions, because they all have a shred of truth in them, but not to compromise your own faith, but to know that the world doesn't revolve around your faith or anyone's faith, and no religion claims authority over another religion or person. As we have all seen here, religion sparks emotions and passions, and some get quite defensive, others are easy going and understanding. The moral of the story is that if we get so passionate about our faith and we start to bicker, A. How would this look to a new prospect? B. How are we living up to our OB? And C. If we can't find a common ground, especially among masons, then the world is doomed to live out an existence of war, pestilence, ignorance, and fear. We as masons try and light that darkness, to bring to light that we are all children of the creator, no matter what our faith is.


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 27, 2012)

That's why we don't discuss religion in the lodge.  It's really a simple concept.  Are we concerned with the person's religion at a PTA meeting, a Lions Club meeting, or any other secular event.


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Nov 27, 2012)

> I have mixed feelings on this statement. Although I agree that one man's opinion doesn't determine what Masonry is. And that sometimes opinions can be misunderstood. I think it is very Masonic to put one's faith before everything else. Even if that decision is based on misinformation.



My statement was probably too harsh in succinct form.  Let me elaborate.  Masonry is about making good men better, its about fraternalism, philosophy and personal growth I would think.  If a man's faith is at the part of his journey where he is worried about what others think about it, is in a position where he feels he needs to ask what other Masons believe to determine if he should be a Mason, then he might not be in the right spot in his faith or his Masonry to make the journey worthwhile.

Masonry can definitely enrich a man's faith, but if he is worried that men don't agree with him about matters of that faith, he will miss the most beautiful part.


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 27, 2012)

That is a good assessment of the situation I believe.


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## widows son (Nov 27, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

As do I.  Well put, and Cajun we you are right about religion/politics in the lodge, but I feel that although we are masons on a Masonic blog, this isn't a lodge, and these things should be discussed, but on a respectful level, especially of one doesn't believe in the something another man believes. If we didn't discuss, how could we further improve ourselves.


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 28, 2012)

I understand what you're saying.  And I know that you have your position on things and the only way that I can answer some your questions is to discuss it with you.  Which I personally don't mind doing. This is a bad analogy, But I work part time for the corners office picking up bodies as a side job.  I can do that job without becoming emotionally taxed where others can't.  So I would never invite them to ride along with me.


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## Godfrey Daniel (Nov 28, 2012)

I don't agree that this is a "great thread".  There are good reasons for the two prohibitions on topics of discussion and this thread demonstrates one of them succinctly.

Random quote-generator that I have become, I'd like to add one.  _The Pythagorean Sourcebook_ has been bandied about as a recommendation for Masons interested in Masonic philosophy.  I agree, although I consider it a sort of "greatest hits" compilation.  Regardless, in one of the fragments it contains (political, by Archytas), it states:

_". . . for it is absurd that a shepherd should hate his flock, and feel hostile towards those he is educating."_

Â¢Â¢


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## widows son (Nov 28, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

Yes but again we are not in a lodge... And if one feels they can't discuss without offending or being offended by another belief, then they should either reexamine their beliefs, or reexamine their position in masonry or both.


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## BryanMaloney (Nov 28, 2012)

*Re: Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*



widows son said:


> So Bryan, you are saying that Rome didnt condemn anything that wasn't part of its cannon? What about the Albigensian crusade? The inquisition? Or the fall of the Templars on false grounds? Or the condemnation of freemasonry?



Prove that Rome ever ran my Church, the "Eastern" Orthodox Church. It never did at all. Rome has, indeed, condemned many things, but it is an outright lie to claim that "Christianity" condemned every single thing that did not originate within Christianity. Such a claim is within the mindset of a bigot. Indeed, Saint Justin Martyr cited pagan practices as essentially prefiguring some Christian doctrines. Since you deem yourself qualified to condemn all of Christianity, you are certainly familiar with Saint Justin Martyr, right? As for a 5-pointed star, it was considered a Christian symbol before the Enlightenment in many parts of Europe. Read "Gawaine and the Green Knight" for an example of a medieval Western Christian interpretation. I can easily tolerate others' beliefs WITHOUT bowing down to them. I do not demand that they bow down to mine, only that they cease insisting I bow down to theirs.


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## jvarnell (Nov 28, 2012)

*Re: Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*



BryanMaloney said:


> Prove that Rome ever ran my Church, the "Eastern" Orthodox Church. It never did at all. Rome has, indeed, condemned many things, but it is an outright lie to claim that "Christianity" condemned every single thing that did not originate within Christianity. Such a claim is within the mindset of a bigot. Indeed, Saint Justin Martyr cited pagan practices as essentially prefiguring some Christian doctrines. Since you deem yourself qualified to condemn all of Christianity, you are certainly familiar with Saint Justin Martyr, right? As for a 5-pointed star, it was considered a Christian symbol before the Enlightenment in many parts of Europe. Read "Gawaine and the Green Knight" for an example of a medieval Western Christian interpretation. I can easily tolerate others' beliefs WITHOUT bowing down to them. I do not demand that they bow down to mine, only that they cease insisting I bow down to theirs.




Thank you brother Maloney this is what I have been trying to say.


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## widows son (Nov 28, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

Rome may not of ran or created your version of
Christianity, but without it there wouldn't have been the reformation.  The time of Justin martyr was a bad time for Christians. Out numbered in a pagan world, the only followers at the time were women and slaves, who in the roman empire had no say in any civil or religious matter. Scholars agree  that many Christian leaders sought to find a way to grow their numbers, so relating it other successful religions  worked in their favor. We need to remember that st. Paul was the most influential man in Christianity, but he live much later than Christ and wasn't there listening to his word. I can give many references to prove that the origins, rites, practices, of christianity originating paganism. I won't though because I feel that it would offend brethren here that I respect. But to you mr. Maloney, I say look it up. Find out for yourself. And as for my bigotry, I have none. I believe and am passionate about my beliefs just as you have shown your are. I honestly think YOU are the bigot for not respecting other faiths, or anyone who can't see past their own views. I respect Christians and their beliefs, I have no hatred or I'll contempt for them. I once was a Christian, but I don't feel I fit in with it anymore, and I'm proud of my choice, because since I haven't been a Christian, I've learned a great of myself and who I am, and learned my place and role in this existence.  This doesn't mean that I hate Christianity, I think all religions have a common origin. I also find it funny that you think masonry is making you bow down to other religions, when its not asking you to physically bow down, but is asking for respect, and the tolerance that you would expect from someone towards your faith. Didn't anyone tell you there's allegories in freemasonry?


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 28, 2012)

I really don't think anyone here is saying that anyone needs to bow down to any other religion.


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## widows son (Nov 28, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

Also Bryan I don't know which Christian sect you belong to so, but I know to this day there are some christian sects that still see our symbols as the "language of Satan" which down
The line is due to the papal bulls of the centuries  past, condemning them. 
   I am no longer going to defend my beliefs, because it is pointless, staying true to my OB and out of respect for all on this forum. I also am going to not argue with anyone on theirs, because it is pointless as well. I hope the way I see life hasn't offended anyone

Dave


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## CajunTinMan (Nov 28, 2012)

*Re: Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

I have given a lot if thought to this. If I was in an area that I felt that because of my religious beliefs I could not sit in that lodge then I wouldn't. I just that simple. Peace and harmony would still exist. But if I saw a Brother Mason of that faith I would treat him with Brotherly love and give aid as needed. I don't think that that's unMasinic or unChristian.


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## widows son (Nov 28, 2012)

*Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*

Not at all. And I would do the same.


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## CajunTinMan (Dec 1, 2012)

Freemasonry and the Church

W. J. Collett, C.D.M.A. B.Ed. B.D. D.D.
Grand Master 
Grand Lodge of Alberta, A.F. & A.M.
And President 
Mount Royal College 
Calgary, Alberta


Freemasonry and the Church


From time to time Freemasonry has come under criticism from the Christian Church both the Roman Catholic and Protestant branches. The Roman Catholic opposition dates back to the Eighteenth Century when Papal Bulls were issued by Clement XII in 1738 and Benedict XIV in 1751 denouncing Freemasonry and instructing the Roman Catholics to withdraw from the Craft. Originally Freemasonry had both Roman Catholic clergy and laymen in its membership in almost every country where it had been established. The first Freemasons' Hall in London was erected in 1776 when Lord Petre, who was looked upon as the leading layman in the Roman Catholic Community in England, was the Grand I~ff. aster of Masons. Earlier than that in 1730, Thomas Howard, the Eighth Duke of Norfolk, a Roman Catholic, was Grand Master and during his term presented to the Grand Lodge its Sword of State, which is still in use. After the Papal Bulls had been issued Roman Catholics gradually withdrew from membership in Freemasonry. This process was accelerated when a number of edicts were issued starting in the year 1821 and the result was almost a complete separation of the Roman Catholic Church from the Freemasons Lodge.


The opposition of the Roman Catholic Church does not differ greatly from the criticism that arises from time to time in the Protestant Church. In 1935 the Catholic Truth Society issued a pamphlet which sets forth quite clearly the basis of the differences. The pamphlet admits that Freemasonry is "beneficial to the country or, at any rate, quite harmless" but that the great objection is that Freemasons are placed under a solemn oath of secrecy. Even more serious than this is that Freemasonry "tends to undermine belief in Catholic Christianity by substituting for it what is practically a rival religion based on deistic or naturalistic principles".


Through the years there have been criticisms of Freemasonry by Protestant groups. At c, Methodist Conference in Great Britain in 1927, Rev. C. Penney Hunt criticized the Craft in much the same manner as did the Catholic Truth Society. While the Methodist Church refused to pass a motion unfavourable to Freemasonry yet there were many indications of support for Mr. Hunt. In January, 1951, the magazine "Theology", a publication of the Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, carried an article by a Church of England clergyman, Rev. Walton Hannah, entitled: "Should a Christian be a Freemason?" The question, of course, is answered in the negative mainly because Mr. Hannah claims that the oaths of secrecy and the penalties associated with the oaths are pagan. He claims, in addition, that the Masonic Order is a Gnostic Heresy. The article demands an inquiry into Freemasonry by the Church of England especially since both the Methodist and the Roman Catholic Churches questioned the validity of the Order.


At a Church Assembly in June 195I, Rev. R. Creed Meridith moved that a Commission be established to study the Hannah article and a long debate ensued. Freemasonry found supporters in many of the high dignitaries of the Church including Dr. Garbett, the Archbishop of York. Rev. C. E. Douglas made the following very penetrating statement: "You cannot understand Freemasonry except in a Lodge. Its real secret is fellowship." The motion was ultimately defeated.


In Scotland in 1754 the Associated Synod of Stirling considered the propriety of the Masonic oath and in 1755 the Kirk Sessions were requested to make enquiries into Masonic practices. In some places in Scotland any person who admitted to being a member of a Freemason's Lodge was required to do public penance and subjected to a rebuke from the Kirk Session. The reasons for the opposition were the objections to the Oath of Secrecy and the penalties associated with the obligations.


From the above account it may be concluded that the historic objections to Freemasonry are:


Theological
Ethical
The theological objections are based on the charges that Freemasonry is:


(1) Deistic -The Deist relies on reason to prove the existence of God. They come to this position by conclusions drawn from the observation of nature. The revelation of God through a person, such as Jesus, is not necessary.


(2) Naturalistic -Naturalistic theology believes that the world can get along all right by itself by obedience to the natural law. God may have created the world but once it was set in motion there is no further need for Divine intervention. Hence there is no need to acknowledge that God once intervened in the natural order by sending his Son as the Saviour of the World.


(3) Gnostic -The Gnostic heresy claims that truth is revealed by God to specially selected individuals by means of special secret rites and ceremonies. The mystic ceremony of initiation confers on the initiate a special type of knowledge. Again the appearance of Jesus in human form is not necessary in the Gnostic view.


The Christian Church finds error in these three theologies because they exclude the need of Jesus Christ as Saviour of the world. This accusation against the Masonic Lodges is not correct. A man before he is admitted to the Masonic Order must profess a belief in God and in Life Eternal. It follows, then, that the Christian who applies for admission to the Masonic Lodge must confess a belief in God cfs revealed in Jesus Christ. Hence Freemasonry cannot be Deistic, Naturalistic or Gnostic. It is true that the Freemason's lodge endeavours to enrich a member's belief in God by instructing him in the moral law and the hidden secrets of nature and science. For the Christian this is a further understanding of the nature of the God as revealed in Jesus Christ in whom he has already admitted a belief.


The matter of secrecy has been greatly overrated as far as the Freemason's Lodge is concerned. There are no mystic initiatory rites which purport to give secret knowledge. There was a time in the early Christian Church that the Christians were accused of cannibalism because in their sacred meal they were reported to have eaten human flesh. This was, of course, a complete misunderstanding of the Lord's Supper and arose because the Christians were forced to meet for worship in secret. The meeting of the Freemason's Lodge is limited to members and their proceedings are in secret. It does not necessarily follow that secrecy produces theological error or special knowledge. What it does indicate is that a very close and warm fellowship is developed amongst the members.


The ethical accusations against Freemasonry in relation to the oaths of secrecy and the penalty of the obligations are more difficult to explain to those who are not members of the Order. The penalties when considered with a historical imagination and with an understanding of their origins are not as pagan as they may at first appear. Recently, however, some Grand Lodges have undertaken to revise the penalties. In Canada, the Grand Lodge of Quebec, has led the way in this matter. It should be sufficient to note that the Masonic Order is conscious of the need to study a revision of the penalties. This, in itself, should indicate to the critics of this aspect of Freemasonry that the penalties are not basic to the purpose of the Order.


Secrecy will have to remain because this is a fundamental concept but it should be noted that secrecy implies a fellowship and not immorality, irreligion or sedition.


Far more important than the issues discussed above is what may be described as the practical situations which cause individual clergymen to oppose Freemasonry. This practical conflict appears when the Freemason's Lodge appears to compete with the Church for the time, energy and talent of the men in any community. The validity of such criticism is borne out when the Mason prefers to attend his Lodge rather than go to a Church meeting. It is further aggravated when a Freemason's Lodge plans events which conflict with Church activities. Very regrettably some Lodges arrange practices on Sundays when the members should be in church. Such inconsiderate action rightly brings the Lodge into disrepute.


Another very valid point of criticism is 'when the Freemason's Lodge presumes to usurp some of the historical prerogatives of the Church, for example the so-called Masonic Funeral. The Church, as is its right, commits the body to the ground and concludes the burial service with the benediction. Then the Masonic Lodge takes over and conducts the committal service again, often inexpertly and in a painfully long and theologically unsound manner. It should be noted that the Freemason's Lodges are themselves examining the validity of this practice and many are substituting a Memorial Service for the Funeral Service. The following is a quotation from the proceedings of the United Grand Lodge of England dated September 12th, 1962:


(1) That Masonic Rites, Prayers and Ceremonies be confined to the Lodge Room and that dispensation to wear Regalia (which term includes White gloves) be granted only in exceptional cases;


(2) That there be no active participation by Masons, as such, in any part of the burial service or cremation of a Brother and that there be no Masonic prayers, readings or exhortations either then or at the grave side subsequent to the interment, since the final obsequies of any human being, Mason or not, are complete in themselves and do not call, in the case of a Freemason, for any additional ministrations. That if it is wished to recall and allude to his Masonic life and actions this can appropriately be done at the next Lodge meeting in the presence of his Brethren, or at a specially arranged Memorial Service;


(3) But that while no obstacle should be put in the way of Masons wishing to take part in an act of corporate worship, only in rare and exceptional cases should they be granted dispensation to do so wearing regalia; moreover, that the order of service should in all cases be such as the officiating minister, or his superior, consider to be appropriate to the occasion."


The most serious criticism that clergymen have against Freemasonry is that some Freemasons claim that their Lodge gives them all the religion they need and that they feel no need of the Church. Any Freemason that makes such a claim has completely misunderstood the teachings of the craft and is doing a serious disservice both to the Church and the Lodge. Freemasonry is a science of morality "founded on the purest principles of piety and virtue" and can never claim to be a substitute for the Church. Although its teachings are based on deeply spiritual concepts based on a belief in the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man and although it looks forward to the ultimate unity of mankind in the spirit of love, it can never aspire to supplant the Church as the militant body of Christ manifest in the world. Nor can a Freemason's Lodge hope to satisfy the spiritual life of man which is expressed in the worship, ordinances and outreach of the Christian Church. The Freemason's Lodge has no message of redemption for the sinner and no hope of salvation to offer to those who have lost their foothold on life. No message of forgiveness and atonement is offered to those who are battered and broken by sin and wrongdoing. There is no ministry of healing for those who, in life's struggle, have lost courage and hope. Forgiveness, atonement, redemption and hope are all the prerogatives of the Christian Gospel as expressed in the Church and it is presumptuous for a Freemason to assert that they can be found elsewhere. A well instructed Freemason will never treat lightly the divine ministries of the Church nor wilt he absent himself from attendance at the house of God. Indeed, if he lives as a Freemason should, he will be eager to be a valued aid to the church life of his community.


Religion, morality and noble living find themselves seriously challenged in this age of materialism and all the forces of high and noble living must be rallied to meet the crisis. Both the Church and the Freemason's Lodge are dedicated to such a cause and it would be to their eternal shame if they dissipated their energies in a non-productive criticism of each other. For the Mason it is essential that he demonstrate to the Church his goodwill and support. This task will be made easier if the Masonic Lodge takes steps to remove those areas in which there has been misunderstanding especially by a critical re-examination of its public ceremonies and re-interpretation of the image of being a secret society bound by obligations to which are attached pagan penalties. The Craft has in its membership many clergymen of differing faiths who should accept the responsibility of representing the Freemason's Lodge amongst their brother clergymen. Then it may be possible for more of them to subscribe to the following statement made by Dr. Daniel A. Poling, an outstanding Baptist minister:


"I arrived at the decision that Masonry is a vital and dynamic force in America, and in the world, for everything high and worthy to which my life has long been committed. And there is something more, Masonry occupies, in my opinion, a unique position of opportunity and obligation in the human order today.


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## Traveling Man (Dec 1, 2012)

> This task will be made easier if the Masonic Lodge takes steps to remove those areas in which there has been misunderstanding especially by a critical re-examination of its public ceremonies and re-interpretation of the image of being a secret society bound by obligations to which are attached pagan penalties.



Really? I was the impression that the penalties were the reflection of the methodologies used during the "inquisition", by whom? Pardon me whilst I get some, "rack time"


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 3, 2012)

*Re: Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*



widows son said:


> Rome may not of ran or created your version of Christianity, but without it there wouldn't have been the reformation.


 
The Reformation was a Western phenomenon, based on the political abuses of the time and place. My Church didn't take part on either side.



> The time of Justin martyr was a bad time for Christians. Out numbered in a pagan world, the only followers at the time were women and slaves,


 
More lies. There were many non-slave men who were Christians, even including men in the Senatorial class. Saint Justin Martyr is honored to this day within my Church. You are trying to simply dismiss what he said in order to ignore anything that doesn't support your intolerance and bigotry.



> st. Paul was the most influential man in Christianity, but he live much later than Christ


 
How much later is "much later"? Tell me, how many CENTURIES after Christ was he?



> I can give many references to prove that the origins, rites, practices, of christianity originating paganism.


 
Because Judaism doesn't exist in your world? Why do people continue to ignore the contributions of Temple Judaism?



> YOU are the bigot for not respecting other faiths, or anyone who can't see past their own views.


 
You are the bigot--I do respect other faiths, I just don't blindly bow down to all of them. You, on the other hand, never miss an opportunity to bash Christianity.



> Didn't anyone tell you there's allegories in freemasonry?



The final refuge--claim it's an "allegory" after being quite literal about something.


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 3, 2012)

Traveling Man said:


> Really? I was the impression that the penalties were the reflection of the methodologies used during the "inquisition", by whom? Pardon me whilst I get some, "rack time"



Tortures were used by secular authorities. What most English-speakers ignorantly believe of the "inquisition" was from anti-Spanish propaganda during the wars between England and Spain.


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 3, 2012)

*Re: Is Masonry &quot;guilty&quot; of teaching toleration?*



widows son said:


> Also Bryan I don't know which Christian sect you belong to so, but I know to this day there are some christian sects that still see our symbols as the "language of Satan" which down The line is due to the papal bulls of the centuries  past, condemning them.



And these "papal bulls" are irrelevant. I know of non-Christians who are guilty of all manner of atrocities. If I dig, I could probably find them attached to any set of beliefs. Unlike you, that doesn't mean I then tar everyone with those beliefs with the same brush.


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## Traveling Man (Dec 3, 2012)

BryanMaloney said:


> Tortures were used by secular authorities. What most English-speakers ignorantly believe of the "inquisition" was from anti-Spanish propaganda during the wars between England and Spain.



Really? The purging of the Moors, the tortured conversions; right anti-Spanish propaganda. That had nothing to do with England nor "English-speakers. Funny thing when I was in Spain the Inquisition was explained to me as a Political/Religious purification, nothing that was reflected in your statement. But hey, that's history!


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