# Keeping myself in check.



## Mike Cameron

I would like to begin this by assuring everyone that these are MY thoughts and beliefs and I do not intend to disrespect anyone by stating these beliefs. I write this asking for my Brothers thoughts concerning my ideals in order to be sure that in arriving at these ideals, I haven't missed something that will allow me to be be blinded to the light that I search for. 

I know that there is a lot of talk about the recognition of "Prince Hall" Masons. There are people who say that the entire debate is fueled by racism. Here are my thoughts as a newer Brother who has attempted to educate himself through Masonic research. First of all, I am absolutely possitive that there are many good and great men within the "Prince Hall" Masons. However, it seems to me that this organization is cut off at the knees right from the beginning. This is simply a purists viewpoint. Correct me if I have the wrong understanding please. Prince Hall was born a slave and later freed. (I am simplifying the story) He founded the "Prince Hall" Masons. Thank God we moved away from the slave days. When I was initiated I was subject to the requirement that I was "Free Born". The fact that the "Prince Hall" organization was founded by a man who was not "Free Born" completely seperates that organization entirely from our AF&AM. *If you are angered or feel disrepect by this so far, please keep reading.* I have no problem believing that the "PR" ideals are very similar to ours. However, the organizations do not align on a fundamental level. I have no intimate knowledge of the "PR" "work", but I understand that it is very different from the AF&AM work. This further misaligns the two organizations. For these reasons I don't believe that the "Prince Hall" Masons will ever truely coexist with the AF&AM weather the Grand Lodges recognize them or not. The "Prince Hall" Masons are not the same as the AF&AM. *Please, keep reading.* Now having said all that, I have one more oppinion to share. I would welcome any member of the "Prince Hall" Masons to visit their local AF&AM lodge, fill out a petition, be investigated, and be initiated as an EA, thereby becoming a true worthy brother. I have no problem with any man of any race or nationality becoming an ANCIENT FREE & ACCEPTED MASON. Afterall, I am *Obligated to ALL of Mankind.* I think that we need not lose ourselves by comprimising our fundamentals in an attempt to increase funding or membership, assuming that these are some of the larger reasons. Again, I have no doubt that the Prince Hall Masons are comprised of GOOD and GREAT men but the fact is that the organization is a seperate one from the AF&AM. 

Brothers, Please read this and reread it and give me your thoughts so I can square myself. Thank You.


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## Nate Riley

This is a tough conversation.  First, I have a friend that is a Prince Hall Mason and from our conversations (nothing inappropriate of course), I have determined that they would be as opposed to a merger as much as a regular lodge would.  You state correctly that their work is different, and they would not want to change that.  So, as far as I can tell there will likely never be a complete joining of the two.

Referring to the differences in work, you stated that, "This further misaligns the two organizations." It is true that there are fundamental elements of the work that have to line up, but please note that the work is different in most every state and definitely overseas.  Case in point, I went to a lodge meeting in FL last week (my first time to attend lodge outside of Texas) and there "work" is wildly different than Texas.  I actually enjoyed seeing things done diffently (BTW, being a good Texan, I think the Texas work is better!)  Yet because certain fundamentals remained true I was able to sit in that lodge.

So, unless those differences you are referring to are fundamentally different, I don't see where simple differences in the work "misaligns" us.


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## JJones

My main concern would be over their membership requirements.  More specifically, former GLOTX masons that got booted so they join PHGL.  Mind you, I don't actually know anything about their requirements for admissions though.

I don't see differences in work as much of an issue, as mentioned already masonry differs in practice all over the world so I can't really see why we couldn't recognize each other over that.


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## Mike Cameron

Nate Riley said:


> please note that the work is different in most every state and definitely overseas



Yes there are many differences in work between the states. I have worked in the majority of the lower 48 states and even had my FC confered in Indiana. However, I have a friend who was guard in the Texas penal system. There was two prisoners who continually talked to him in some obscure way that caused him to think that they werent right in the head. Later, he discovered that they were Prince Hall Masons who were trying him. Point one: The work was un decernable to him. Point two: He was told that once you are a Prince Hall Mason you are always one. If I am correct, we would be suspended depending on the crime.


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## choppersteve03

I have a question,was prince hall truly born free in africa,or born to slaves?


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## Mike Cameron

choppersteve03 said:


> I have a question,was prince hall truly born free in africa,or born to slaves?



I really cant say that I know the answer to that question for sure. However, he lived near the time of the abolition of slavery. He spoke english and was educated. Since slavery went on for generations I tend to believe that he was born a slave. This does merit further investigation though and I will follow up on it. Thanks for your input.


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## Mike Cameron

choppersteve03 said:


> I have a question,was prince hall truly born free in africa,or born to slaves?



Here are a few resources that I have reseached. http://www.mindspring.com/~johnsonx/whoisph.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Hall


http://www.africawithin.com/bios/prince_hall.htm


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## kwilbourn

Mike Cameron said:


> I really cant say that I know the answer to that question for sure. However, he lived near the time of the abolition of slavery. He spoke english and was educated. Since slavery went on for generations I tend to believe that he was born a slave. This does merit further investigation though and I will follow up on it. Thanks for your input.



Prince Hall lived during the American Revolution, about 100 years before the abolition of slavery.  His origins aren't very well known, but from what I just read, he is believed to be a former slave of William Hall, who worked in Boston as a tanner; his manumission likely occurred in 1765, but there were several men by the name of Prince Hall living in Boston at that time.


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## Mike Cameron

choppersteve03 said:


> I have a question,was prince hall truly born free in africa,or born to slaves?



One more: http://www.mastermason.com/pride_of_the_south/Prince Hall History.htm


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## Mike Cameron

kwilbourn said:


> Prince Hall lived during the American Revolution, about 100 years before the abolition of slavery. His origins aren't very well known, but from what I just read, he is believed to be a former slave of William Hall, who worked in Boston as a tanner; his manumission likely occurred in 1765, but there were several men by the name of Prince Hall living in Boston at that time.



I stand corrected on when I thought he lived.


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## choppersteve03

Well if he wasnt freeborn how can he be made a mason?its a requirement to join,just like belief in deity,so i guess a aitheist can join too? Right? But the freeborn issue leads me to think pha could be construed as  clandestine. Just putting it out there.


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## kwilbourn

Some histories have him as freeborn in Barbados in 1735; and his manumission in 1770 was granted for "21 years of steadfast service".  Assuming the purported birth date of ca. 1735 is correct, Hall would have been freeborn and become a slave later in life. Prince Hall was just one of 14 freedmen who were initiated into an English military lodge attached to the 38th Foot Regiment in March 1775.  With the onset of the Revolutionary War (of which Prince Hall was an active supporter), the freedmen were granted dispensation to meet as a lodge and bury their dead, and later a permanent charter from England.


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## owls84

So let me get this correct before we delve deeper on this subject. The question is that Prince Hall Freemasonry may be clandestine because it is *assumed* that since Prince Hall was born 100 years before the abolition of slavery that he must have been born into slavery. Is that correct? If so a simple Google search of the Biography of Prince Hall would result in a few findings and each of which I have found that he was born outside the US and was brought here into slavery. Thus, making him freeborn. 

African Lodge (what it was known as before the death of Prince Hall) had to go through the same recognition status that every other Grand Lodge has to go through to seek "regular" Masons status of the time. It was more stringent than the current method or the method used by the GLoTX. At the time the only way to get recognition is by the UGLE. Another GL could not grand a charter. 

The bold notations is my doing. 


> The Revolutionary War being over in 1783, Prince Hall decided to approach England again. On March 2, 1784, he wrote a letter to William Moody, Worshipful Master of Brotherly Love Lodge No. 55 in London, England, stating that African Lodge had been in operation for eight years and they had only "a Permit to walk on St. John’s Day and to bury their dead in manner and form" and he thought it "best to send to the Fountains from whence he received the Light for a Warrant." This warrant or charter was prepared but was not sent. Three years passed yet the payment for it had not been received in London. It seems that Prince Hall had sent it but it had not been delivered. Finally, he was careful in selecting his messengers and asked Captain James Scott, brother-in-law of Governor John Hancock of Massachusetts, a signer of the Declaration of Independence. Captain Scott delivered the letter and the money, and received a Charter. Prince Hall acknowledged this receipt and added in this letter to England, "By the grace of God, I shall endeavor to fulfill all that is required of me in the Charter and I shall make the Constitution my guide.' He added, "I hope we can adorn our profession as Masons." This Charter, under lock and key, is in the possession of African Lodge of Massachusetts. Some of us have seen it and treasure it.
> 
> _*It is believed to be the only original charter issued from the Grand Lodge of England which is now in the possession of any lodge in the United States*_. It is worth noting that recognition of this fact was adopted in a unanimous report of a committee of the historic Northern Jurisdiction in 1946 but it was delayed by another committee’s action.



The Grand Lodges of the world have, for ages, recognized the UGLE as a governing body for recognition since it is the system set up by them that allows members of the Grand Lodge of Texas, AF&AM to travel and visit. 

Here is an article if you truly seek knowledge on this topic. It is lengthy but it answers any question you may have.

Information on the Legitimacy of Prince Hall Freemasonry - http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/LIGHT_ON_A_DARK_SUBJECT.pdf


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On a separate topic, but one I feel needs to be addressed since it was use in a previous post, one could not assume that only AF&AM lodges are recognized. Keep in mind, although the Grand Lodge of Texas is AF&AM we received our Charter from the Grand Lodge of Louisiana who is F&AM. There are several others that the Grand Lodge of Texas, and other Grand Lodges, recognize such as the Grand Lodge of the District of Columbia F.A.A.M.


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## owls84

In addition to my previous post I would like to submit the following. 

I am asked from time to time, "Why don't the 'blacks' join the Grand Lodge of Texas we let them in?" My answer to that is we have not always and because man is flawed many lodges still do not. There are more states in the US, including Texas, that recognize their Prince Hall Grand Lodge their share jurisdiction with. Of the remaining stated that do not recognize the Prince Hall jurisdiction all of them are "southern" states. Of those southern states research shows at one time many had that Masonry was a whites only organization in their modes of rules or regulations. 

I submit that an image of the paper above that references Art. 36 of the Laws of the Grand Lodge of Texas, AF&AM. 



To say that race does not play a part in this argument of recognition I think would be hard to prove when for over 100 years now there is documentation to say Prince Hall is regular Freemasonry. Why does this organization continue to have to prove themselves?


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## Mike Cameron

*Please don't forget to read the origonal post.
*
If the Prince Hall Masons are Regular Masons then why are they not just Freemasons? Why were they ever a seperate organization?


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## owls84

Do you not see the image of the Article 36 stating that a "negro" as illegal to be a Mason? They were not recognized by many Masonic jurisdictions due to race. They do consider themselves as "Freemasons" but we, through ignorance, have learned to call them "Prince Hall Freemasons" as to take away from the legitimacy. It would equate to someone calling me a "Texas Mason". I really don't understand where you are going with the question. There should be a joke that goes something like this; "What do you call a a Master Mason that was raised in the Prince Hall?  A Brother." But the fact is our education on the topic has been so mis-informed on the facts that stories and beliefs have become the truth on the subject, much like traditions often are thought of as law in many blue Lodges over time. 

I also take it that you have not looked at the article I submitted above. It even goes to say that if one is to question the legitimacy of the Prince Hall Grand Lodge then you should be questioning three-quarters of the Grand Lodges in the United States since none have a more noble lineage than Prince Hall. Keep in mind that article was not submitted by a Prince Hall Lodge. It was submitted by M.W. William Upton in 1899. (see http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/william_h_upton.htm)

It is our job as Masons to find the facts and educate our members on the subject. If we can educate ourselves then we have no choice but to educate others on the untruths of the subject.


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## TCShelton

If people weren't even allowed to drink at the same water fountains less than 50 years ago, why do you think we would all be able to sit in lodge together?  Come on people.


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## JJones

So am I understanding things correctly?  Prince Halls lodge was chartered by the UGLE?


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## owls84

The original in Massachusetts yes. Then from that there were others allowed to be formed, much like many Grand Jurisdictions in the United Stated.


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## kwilbourn

Since African Lodge 459 (which was renamed in Prince Hall's honor after his death) was chartered prior to the unification of UGLE, was it chartered by the Ancients or the Moderns?  It doesn't have any impact on the discussion at hand, but I am simply curious.


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## TCShelton

JJones said:


> So am I understanding things correctly?  Prince Halls lodge was chartered by the UGLE?



Prince Hall received his charter from the Grand Lodge of England in 1780s.  Keep in mind, the UGLE as we know it wasn't formed until 1813 when the Ancients and Moderns united in England.  The Grand Lodge of England who issued Prince Hall the charter was the older of those two.

Also keep in mind that at the time of PH receiving the charter, exclusive territorial jurisdiction was NOT an active and recognized custom of English Freemasonry, which basically throws out the old territorial jurisdiction arguement against recognition.


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## TCShelton

kwilbourn said:


> ...was it chartered by the Ancients or the Moderns?



The Moderns, which was the older of the two.


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## JJones

Wow, I was always under the impression that the main argument for calling PH clandistine was because it wasn't ever chartered by any recognized authority.  The fact they were chartered by the UGLE really sort of puts things in perspective though. :blink:


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## Mike Cameron

owls84, I did not ask the questions to cause strife between brothers. I am looking for education. I did read what you posted. However, there are many writings on this subject that contradict each other there by causing the confusion that we are faced with today. My problem is: If the Prince Hall Masons and the AF&AM were to join or communicate, how do we do that? Their work is extremely different, the bylaws are different, Etc... Please let me restate that my problem is not with the men but rather the amount of differences in the organizations. Look, we have masons all over the earth. I sas a Master Mason can visit any of these "Regular" lodges but I cant visit or hold communications with members of the PH Masons. If I cant do this how can we ever coexist as Brothers? I can however look at them as another great organization whom in their own ways search for light and respect that. Remember, I do not have a problem with any man who can meet the criteria becoming a mason, regardles of race or creed.


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## TCShelton

JJones said:


> More specifically, former GLOTX masons that got booted so they join PHGL.  Mind you, I don't actually know anything about their requirements for admissions though.


The only issue of that I have ever heard of was back in the early 80s when a Brother was given the boot for marrying a black woman.  

As far as the entrance requirements between both jurisdictions, they are almost identical, except that PHA requires a man to be 21 as opposed to 18 as in the GLoTx.  PHA does not accept felons, while there is NO LAW in the GLoTx that keeps a felon from joining.  He merely has to state it on his petition, and the lodge votes on it.  So if the comparison had to be made, PHA is more selective in its membership.

As for the guys in prison giving signs and whatnot, just because you get convicted doesn't mean you forget all you have learned.  Let's also keep in mind that not every black mason is PHA.  There are no less than 4 predominately black 4 letter Grand Lodges operating in Texas.

As far as the "fundamentals in work creating misalignments," this is no more true than it would be if you compared the GLoTx ritual to that of the GLoLa.  

We can stop all talk of any merger ever happening.  Both organizations are too rich in their respective cultures and heritages for this to ever happen.  The only issue is full recognition.


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## TCShelton

Mike Cameron said:


> My problem is: If the Prince Hall Masons and the AF&AM were to join or communicate, how do we do that?



The exact same way any two Grand Jurisdictions communicate and visit.  How would you visit a 4 letter lodge in Oklahoma?  You would go in and abide by the customs of the lodge you are visiting.  PHGLoTx is just another Grand Jurisdicition.


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## owls84

Mike Cameron said:


> My problem is: If the Prince Hall Masons and the AF&AM were to join or communicate, how do we do that?



I would like to first THANK YOU for this post. By doing so you have challenged me to educate myself so I can partake in this discussion and I have probably done more research today than in the past Masonic year. I love it. That being said, it would be no different than how you see the Grand Lodge of Louisiana or the United Grand Lodge of England. The work is different but you are allowed to travel. This is not a merger of systems but a form of recognition. Keep in mind if you wiki Grand Lodges in the United States you will see that there are about 12 in Texas. 

So what makes Prince Hall different one may ask. Well the difference is when Prince Hall formed there was not a way that a Black Man would be able to be a Mason as proven with previous posts. It was a Whites Only Fraternity. Plain and simple. So as an alternative and because Masonry should not see color as it has in history Prince Hall has formed. Now fast forward to modern day we have two jurisdictions in the state of Texas that are currently recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England as being regular and as of 2007 recognize each other as regular Masonic bodies that govern themselves. Last I heard there are only 7 (don't know for sure) states that do NOT recognize their Prince Hall Jurisdiction. BTW, Texas is the only one that recognizes their Prince Hall but does not allow visitation. Don't know why, personally don't like it but that is on the Grand Lodge. I do know the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas has requested visitation as of July 2, 2010. Should be voted on this year. 

In the perfect world that does not have hate and racism we would not have this problem but since there was a time in this country that GOOD black men could not sit in lodge with at GOOD white man there was a need for Prince Hall Freemasonry. Now this is "over" it would be great if Masons of all regular Lodges could come together as one but we are finding out that is not the case.


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## choppersteve03

Brother owls,thank you for that light,i must say I knew nothing of pha really until this thred. There are a lot of wise brothers here.


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## TCShelton

In order to stop beating this extremely dead horse, can we move and pin this thread in the PHA section so all those who ask these same questions in the future can benefit from what has already been said?

Bottom line for me is that the GAOTU created unity, and man created division.  When it comes to my spiritual path and growth, when I find a Brother who can help me shine the light of understanding on my next step, a purely operative concept like "recognition" will not in any way deter me from satisfying myself.  When we take a step back and weild our trowel and see the bigger picture, this whole "I can't play with you because my daddy doesn't approve of your daddy" nonsense holds no place in the pursuit of enlightenment.


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## barryguitar

Which Prince Hall Grand Lodge are we talking about? There are so many here in Texas. Some, require the East to be "purchased", (after all it is a full time and well paid job), therefore establishing one brother who may not give up his seat for decades.

It may be acceptable to create a set of steps that an individual PH lodge could go through to become a regular lodge under the GLoT. This would need to require a new charted from the GLoT. They would be required to adhere to the laws of grand lodge, submit to inspection, and be willing to conform to Grand Lodge ritual. We do not need any lodges that are unwilling to conform.

African Lodge #1 was given a charter by the Modern grand lodge to hold annual communication, and bury their dead. They were not given the expressed right to Make Masons, charter any other lodges, or declare themselves a Grand Lodge outside the authority of the then provincial grand lodge located at that time in Pennsylvania. Their complete disregard for the proper descent of charter does indeed make them clandestine (as they were considered to be until 2007). It was unfortunate that the GLoT thought it ok to extend recognition in 2007 without  addressing the issue of how to make them Regular enough to let Texas Masons sit in lodge with them. I suspect this was in answer to outside forces threatening to use the legal system to force the issue. The current situation of multiple Grand Lodges in the same state is not in accord with the Landmarks of freemasonry..

The question before us now is not how to convince Grand Lodge to accept Prince Hall Masons, but how do we make Prince Hall Masonic lodges accept the authority of the M.W G.L o.T. Racism does play a role in this issue, but it is far from the only issue.

I live in a high rise in downtown Dallas. There are several Texas Masons here in my building, but we are far out numbered by the Prince Hall brothers who live here. I see the S&C on their rings and taillights, and they see mine. They have no restrictions on what communications they can have with me and they are aware of the restrictions that I am subject to. I have even overheard one of them refer to another as clandestine, because he was of a different lodge that is under a different GL than his lodge was. If I was to see ANY brother give the sign I would indeed Fly to his relief, and am sure they would do the same for me. However, the issue at hand is one of Provincial authority. We must guard the landmarks


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## LukeD

Mike,

  I was gonna stay away from posting on this thread, but it did peak my curiosity. I think your question was legitimate and non threatening, and was based on what you were taught or heard. This is what these forums are for, to get information, network, etc....  I don't think people realize how diverse the material is on PH Masonry, and sometimes I find it hard to get a correct answer concerning it.  On top of that, there are more bogus GLs, or GLs claiming to be PH in the USA, than other Legitimate GLs throughout the world.  Lots of websites and books claiming different stuff, and they can be very misleading. Don't believe everything you read out there on the Internet concerning Masonry.  Unfortunately, most times I ask a question concerning PH Masonry, it somehow gets twisted and distorted, and ends up being a brow beating session with caps lock and underlying accusations of racism. I just try and avoid asking on forums anymore, and do my own research on this subject.


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## TCShelton

barryguitar said:


> Which Prince Hall Grand Lodge are we talking about?



THE Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas.  

http://www.mwphglotx.org/

FYI, PHA Masons in Texas have the same restrictions you have in regards to Masonic Communication per the compact both Grand Masters signed.  Again, keep in mind there is a predominantly black (non-PHA) four letter Grand Lodge in Dallas.

Which specific landmark are you referring to as having been violated?  Are we going to pick and choose which we keep?  GLoTx violates the 18th constantly by allowing dispensation to initiate men who are physically handicapped, but nobody protests that.

Your issue of provincial authority has already been put to rest, so it isn't our issue at all.  That is in Title I, Chapter V, Art 18 in your law book, regardless of landmarks.


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## Mike Cameron

LukeD said:


> Mike,
> 
> I was gonna stay away from posting on this thread, but it did peak my curiosity. I think your question was legitimate and non threatening, and was based on what you were taught or heard. This is what these forums are for, to get information, network, etc....  I don't think people realize how diverse the material is on PH Masonry, and sometimes I find it hard to get a correct answer concerning it.  On top of that, there are more bogus GLs, or GLs claiming to be PH in the USA, than other Legitimate GLs throughout the world.  Lots of websites and books claiming different stuff, and they can be very misleading. Don't believe everything you read out there on the Internet concerning Masonry.  Unfortunately, most times I ask a question concerning PH Masonry, it somehow gets twisted and distorted, and ends up being a brow beating session with caps lock and underlying accusations of racism. I just try and avoid asking on forums anymore, and do my own research on this subject.



Thank you very much for this post. I admit, I was very worried at first about asking thiese questions publicly. Then I thought, "Hey these are my brothers and we are all held to the same obligations." I am so glad that this post has not caused brothers to be angry with one another.  We need to be objective in this discussion. Thanks again


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## Mike Cameron

owls84 said:


> I would like to first THANK YOU for this post. By doing so you have challenged me to educate myself so I can partake in this discussion and I have probably done more research today than in the past Masonic year. I love it. That being said, it would be no different than how you see the Grand Lodge of Louisiana or the United Grand Lodge of England. The work is different but you are allowed to travel. This is not a merger of systems but a form of recognition. Keep in mind if you wiki Grand Lodges in the United States you will see that there are about 12 in Texas.
> 
> So what makes Prince Hall different one may ask. Well the difference is when Prince Hall formed there was not a way that a Black Man would be able to be a Mason as proven with previous posts. It was a Whites Only Fraternity. Plain and simple. So as an alternative and because Masonry should not see color as it has in history Prince Hall has formed. Now fast forward to modern day we have two jurisdictions in the state of Texas that are currently recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England as being regular and as of 2007 recognize each other as regular Masonic bodies that govern themselves. Last I heard there are only 7 (don't know for sure) states that do NOT recognize their Prince Hall Jurisdiction. BTW, Texas is the only one that recognizes their Prince Hall but does not allow visitation. Don't know why, personally don't like it but that is on the Grand Lodge. I do know the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas has requested visitation as of July 2, 2010. Should be voted on this year.
> 
> In the perfect world that does not have hate and racism we would not have this problem but since there was a time in this country that GOOD black men could not sit in lodge with at GOOD white man there was a need for Prince Hall Freemasonry. Now this is "over" it would be great if Masons of all regular Lodges could come together as one but we are finding out that is not the case.



Okay, I know nothing of the Prince Hall Masons work because I am not allowed to have masonic communications with them. Therefore, how do I know if they are a true and worthy brother if I have no clue as to what they're working? Now I understand the different states and got different work. I have work many different states and been to lodge in several. I even add my FC conferred on me and Indiana. However, none of the states I've been to have been so different in their work that I could not recognize them as a brother Mason. There may be a word here in a word there that's different but their work was pretty much all the same. Now, admittedly I have no personal experience with but with being approached by a Prince Hall Masons but a friend of mine was approached by two and they were trying him but he did not recognize it as Masonic communication he had no idea what they were talking about. Until he finally ask them what are you talking about and they said to him "what are you doing with that ring on your finger" so this tells me that the work is so different that it would not be recognized by a regular mason.


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## Mike Cameron

*Please remember guys, the subject here is concerning why the PH Masons should be recognised as "Regular", How do we do that?, How do we communicate with them?, and if we dont know their work, how do I know that one is a true and worthy brother? REMEMBER, My issue is not with the members of the PH lodges but with the organization fundamentaly. Please also remember these questions are asked to gain knowledge and no disrespect to anyone is intended. *


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## Bro. David F. Hill

It is posts like this that cause much of the strife as it has partial truths. There is only one (1) legitimate PH Grand Lodge and it is not looking to be under AF&AM jurisdiction. What is this issue of PH Masons accepting the authority of the GLofTx? Why would we need to? The only thing that is being sought is *visitation!!!* About your comment regarding African Lodge #1, you only told half the story. You neglected to mention the rest of the story where on March 2, 1784, African Lodge #1 petitioned the Grand Lodge of England, the Premier or Mother Grand Lodge of the world, for a warrant (or charter), to organize a regular masonic lodge, with all the rights and privileges thereunto prescribed. Or that the Grand Lodge of England issued a charter on September 29, 1784 to African Lodge #459, the first lodge of Blacks in America.

 You mention that the PHA masons in your building have no restrictions on what communications that they can have with you. There are many things that can be talked about without restriction on either side. Which Landmarks must we guard? Is it
*LANDMARK FOURTEENTH - *The Right of Every Mason to Visit and Sit in Every Regular Lodge is an unquestionable Landmark of the Order." This is called "the right of visitation." This right of visitation has always been recognized as an inherent right, which inures to every Mason as he travels through the world. And this is because Lodges are justly considered as only divisions for convenience of the universal Masonic family. This right may, of course be impaired or forfeited on special occasions by various circumstances; but when admission is refused to a Mason in good standing, who knocks at the door of a Lodge as a visitor, it is to be expected that some good and sufficient reason shall be furnished for this violation, of what is in general a Masonic right, founded on the Landmarks of the Order. I have a cousin in Minnesota who is a member of both affiliations. He is a Past Master of F&AM and a Past Grand Junior Deacon of AF&AM. That is possible because they buried their issues long ago. Just two weeks ago, the two affiliations had a joint BBQ. My brother in Ohio has the right of visitation between both affiliations. See the pattern? Change is coming and both co-exist in harmony except in the few justifications where people can't let the past be the past.

 The one of them that was referred to as clandestine was PHO. PHO is not chartered by the Grand Lodge of England and is a faction that broke away from PHA. MY dream is that at some point we can truly live up to our obligation and we a fraternity of Good Men. Different Affiliations, Same Goal, not one absorbing the others into itself.  By the way, for the correct history of PH Masonry, you can go to The Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge, Free and Accepted Masons of Massachusetts (http://www.princehall.org/).

 This post is my Opinion Only.


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## Nate Riley

barryguitar said:


> It may be acceptable to create a set of steps that an individual PH lodge could go through to become a regular lodge under the GLoT. This would need to require a new charted from the GLoT. They would be required to adhere to the laws of grand lodge, submit to inspection, and be willing to conform to Grand Lodge ritual. We do not need any lodges that are unwilling to conform.
> 
> The question before us now is not how to convince Grand Lodge to accept Prince Hall Masons, but how do we make Prince Hall Masonic lodges accept the authority of the M.W G.L o.T. Racism does play a role in this issue, but it is far from the only issue.



Do what? I have had more to drink tonight than I thought!


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## Nate Riley

Mike Cameron said:


> Okay, I know nothing of the Prince Hall Masons work because I am not allowed to have masonic communications with them. Therefore, how do I know if they are a true and worthy brother if I have no clue as to what they're working? Now I understand the different states and got different work. I have work many different states and been to lodge in several. I even add my FC conferred on me and Indiana. However, none of the states I've been to have been so different in their work that I could not recognize them as a brother Mason. There may be a word here in a word there that's different but their work was pretty much all the same. Now, admittedly I have no personal experience with but with being approached by a Prince Hall Masons but a friend of mine was approached by two and they were trying him but he did not recognize it as Masonic communication he had no idea what they were talking about. Until he finally ask them what are you talking about and they said to him "what are you doing with that ring on your finger" so this tells me that the work is so different that it would not be recognized by a regular mason.



I would bet you my boots that these two convicted felons you are referring to were members of one of the obscure and clandestine Grand Lodges that have been mentioned here (like PHO).


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## owls84

Nate Riley said:


> I would bet you my boots that these two convicted felons you are referring to were members of one of the obscure and clandestine Grand Lodges that have been mentioned here (like PHO).



Even if they weren't I am willing to be there are a few people sitting in a cell that were once a part of the Grand Lodge of Texas, AF&AM.  Not to mention all the politicians.


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## Mac

Brother Cameron, I am genuinely surprised by your ignorance with regard to Freemasonry in general.  That is not an insult, but an observation. 

First: you keep referring to AF&AM vs PHA...  So what should South Carolina do?  They're AFM, not F&AM or AF&AM.  You are making sweeping generalizations that show a lack of knowledge.  The PHA ritual is different?  As has been rightly pointed out, so is the ritual in every state.  Look at Louisiana's red lodges for even further demonstration.  The Scottish Rite blue lodge degrees are far different from our own.

What makes them true and worthy brethren?  They have a legitimate charter as their origin in Freemasonry.  A Charter that had to be issued because of the racial divide of the times, that kept Prince Hall and others from joining their local lodges.

It is good that you hope to gain knowledge, but your questions are asked with such an obvious slant, that it's plain what your pre-formed opinion is.  You would do well to approach this more open-mindedly.  Also, do your own research and make your own decisions.

As far as that line about being free-born... what would you do with the indentured servants of colonial America?  The white ones who came from Europe and paid their passage by giving up their autonomy for a number of years?  I guess they were probably free born... but what if they had kids?  

I agree with above posters that say this is a very dead horse, and join in asking you to put down the stick.  If I didn't know any better, I would say a troll is in our presence.


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## owls84

I believe their is enough information in this thread to answer most questions that may arise on this topic. If you seek further light on this subject please feel free to use our previous thread search function and then if you still can't find the answer feel free to create a new thread but I feel the answer that was asked originally received an answer.

After the requests that have been made this thread is now closed. Thanks for the great discussion and I look forward to the many more like this.


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