# Switching from AFAM to PHA



## dwashington55

I am AF&AM and would like to become PHA. Does anyone know what to do? I've spoke to a few brothers and no one had an answer.


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## djgiles1984

dwashington55 said:


> I am AF&AM and would like to become PHA. Does anyone know what to do? I've spoke to a few brothers and no one had an answer.


From my understanding brother it should be a simple transfer. PHA does recognize AF&AM. 

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## jdmadsen

Well my question to u is do you mean "mainstream Af&am" or do u mean four letter pha?  If u mean four letter pha or "john jones" masonry then u must go through a healing process.


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## dwashington55

I'm "mainstream AF&AM"


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## dfreybur

dwashington55 said:


> I'm "mainstream AF&AM"



Depending on the jurisdiction they might or might not ask you to do a healing process.  I was told Texas would but I don't know if that was an opinion or the result of looking it up in the book.

Depending on the jurisdiction they might or might not ask you to demit from all other lodges in the process.  Back at the time of recognition in the 1990s California would but I don't know if that is still how their rules work.

A healing process might be fun depending on the content.  I am a life/endowed member in two jurisdictions so far so I can not foresee ever petitioning a lodge in a single lodge membership jurisdiction.


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## jdmadsen

Just find a pha lodge near you. Find out when they meet and go, that is if ur current jurisdiction is recognized by them ave vice versa


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## dwashington55

Thanks for all the info!


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## jwardl

dfreybur said:


> Depending on the jurisdiction they might or might not ask you to do a healing process.  I was told Texas would but I don't know if that was an opinion or the result of looking it up in the book.
> 
> Depending on the jurisdiction they might or might not ask you to demit from all other lodges in the process.  Back at the time of recognition in the 1990s California would but I don't know if that is still how their rules work.
> 
> A healing process might be fun depending on the content.  I am a life/endowed member in two jurisdictions so far so I can not foresee ever petitioning a lodge in a single lodge membership jurisdiction.


Currently, the "mainstream" Grand Lodge (AF&AM) and PHA Grand Lodge (F&AM) have full recognition and intervisitation. However, one cannot be a member of both simultaneously. If you're a member of either GL and seek to join the other, it's necessary to first demit.

In time, I'm sure this requirement will be dropped.


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## MRichard

jdmadsen said:


> Well my question to u is do you mean "mainstream Af&am" or do u mean four letter pha?  If u mean four letter pha or "john jones" masonry then u must go through a healing process.



There is no 4 letter PHA that I know of. Those are clandestine lodges. PHA is usually F & AM although that may be some exceptions.


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## MRichard

jwardl said:


> Currently, the "mainstream" Grand Lodge (AF&AM) and PHA Grand Lodge (F&AM) have full recognition and intervisitation. However, one cannot be a member of both simultaneously. If you're a member of either GL and seek to join the other, it's necessary to first demit.
> 
> In time, I'm sure this requirement will be dropped.



That depends on what state you live in.


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## jwardl

MRichard said:


> That depends on what state you live in.


True... I meant to edit the quoted post I was responding to such that it referred specifically to Texas, and neglected to do so. Thank you helping to clarify.


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## Ripcord22A

MRichard said:


> There is no 4 letter PHA that I know of. Those are clandestine lodges. PHA is usually F & AM although that may be some exceptions.


Hence why i said that youd have to go thru a healing process.  And why i refernced them as john jones masonry


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## Archangel Raised

Bro @dwashington55 many Brothers have given you correct and thoughtful brotherly advice. . . so my below is premised specifically for California.

In addition to the salient advice above, you will have to resign from mainstream masonry to join a PHA blue lodge.  It is not due to the your mainstream side. . . your fraternal (AF&AM) brothers allow dual affiliation.

No healing is necessary to PHA jurisdiction.  You aren't seen as clandestine as a (AF&AM) brother.

It is because of the protective mechanisms of MWPHGL of California.

You will have demit/resign from mainstream because PHGL does not allow even dual affiliation within PHA blue lodges.

One blue lodge to a brother.

I am starting my work to have this reviewed.

My strong suggestion is to use the opportunity of intervisitation to become my lodge brother.  Ride the fence between both jurisdictions and before too long, we will be able to lower these survival mechanisms.

The future of Prince Hall should be about inclusion of mainstream, and vice versa for both of our survival.

Fraternal Light,

Tevis


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## MRichard

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Hence why i said that youd have to go thru a healing process.  And why i refernced them as john jones masonry



You said 4 letter PHA or John Jones.


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## dfreybur

Archangel Raised said:


> Bro @dwashington55 many Brothers have given you correct and thoughtful brotherly advice. . . so my below is premised specifically for California.
> 
> In addition to the salient advice above, you will have to resign from mainstream masonry to join a PHA blue lodge.  It is not due to the your mainstream side. . . your fraternal (AF&AM) brothers allow dual affiliation.
> 
> No healing is necessary to PHA jurisdiction.  You aren't seen as clandestine as a (AF&AM) brother.
> 
> It is because of the protective mechanisms of MWPHGL of California.
> 
> You will have demit/resign from mainstream because PHGL does not allow even dual affiliation within PHA blue lodges.
> 
> One blue lodge to a brother.
> 
> I am starting my work to have this reviewed.
> 
> My strong suggestion is to use the opportunity of intervisitation to become my lodge brother.  Ride the fence between both jurisdictions and before too long, we will be able to lower these survival mechanisms.
> 
> The future of Prince Hall should be about inclusion of mainstream, and vice versa for both of our survival.
> 
> Fraternal Light,
> 
> Tevis



Bro Tevis,

When you write that you are starting your work to have this reviewed, do you mean the "one blue lodge to a brother" policy of the MWPHGLofCA or do you mean the "no cross affiliation" restriction of the recognition compact?  A reminder that either way you'll need to go through the line to have a voting membership at grand lodge.

If you mean the MWPHGLofCA policy that no brother can be a member of more than one lodge, to me that falls under the "your jurisdiction your rules" category.  I consider it strange.  I have no plans to demit from either of the jurisdictions where I am a Past Master and life (endowed) member so I have no plans to ever affiliate with a lodge that has that rule but I don't consider it problematic.  If you want to work to change that policy go for it but all I can do from this side is cheer you on.

If you mean the original recognition compact from the 1990s that allows visitation (been there, done that) but not cross affiliation, I do not like that from either side.  It set up a second class recognition that has never been resolved.  If you wish to work legislation to amend the compact to "Full traditional recognition without restrictions on the part of our jurisdiction.  As usual if the recognized jurisdiction imposes restrictions that is up to them" I am willing to coordinate with you on the effort.  I am a PM in GLofCA so I can submit legislation on our end.  I'd be able to get enough signatures just in my mother lodge but I doubt getting a signature from at least one PM in every lodge in my district will be difficult.

The schedule for GLofCA legislation goes like this - GL is the Thu-Sat on the weekend before Columbus Day in October.  The proceedings comes online about February of every year.  The deadline for legislation is the beginning of May.  The window to present at Stated meetings and gather signatures is the March and April Stated meetings.


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## Archangel Raised

Blessings Worshipful Bro @dfreybur, and thank you for your thoughtful and measured response.

It is a massive uphill battle, this fight I am proposing.

I had a heated discussion with the WM of my blue lodge last night.  The usual, ". . .innovate or die",  on my part; and the and the, ". . . stop rocking the boat/dont embarass yourself/it's just the way it's done," from this 72 year old brother.

Supremely frustrated, I am of the mind to just demit and be done with it.

I am NOT retired, and don't have the luxury of endless time to devote to this.

So the penultimate question. . . .

. . . we are tasked to grow within the craft by striving to seek the light. . . which is our main focus?

OR

. . . are we tasked to be builders to sustain the craft, even with fierce opposition from the PMs?

Brothers, your thots?


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## MRichard

Archangel Raised said:


> Blessings Worshipful Bro @dfreybur, and thank you for your thoughtful and measured response.
> 
> It is a massive uphill battle, this fight I am proposing.
> 
> I had a heated discussion with the WM of my blue lodge last night.  The usual, ". . .innovate or die",  on my part; and the and the, ". . . stop rocking the boat/dont embarass yourself/it's just the way it's done," from this 72 year old brother.
> 
> Supremely frustrated, I am of the mind to just demit and be done with it.
> 
> I am NOT retired, and don't have the luxury of endless time to devote to this.
> 
> So the penultimate question. . . .
> 
> . . . we are tasked to grow within the craft by striving to seek the light. . . which is our main focus?
> 
> OR
> 
> . . . are we tasked to be builders to sustain the craft, even with fierce opposition from the PMs?
> 
> Brothers, your thots?



Change doesn't happen overnight. It takes time. If you really want change, go through the line.


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## SeeKer.mm

In CT we recognize each other and can sit in Lodge


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## dfreybur

Archangel Raised said:


> So the penultimate question. . . .
> . . . we are tasked to grow within the craft by striving to seek the light. . . which is our main focus?
> OR
> . . . are we tasked to be builders to sustain the craft, even with fierce opposition from the PMs?



It must be both.  With one or the other our Craft is lost to future generations.  Any one brother may make a personal choice or either/or, but we as the sum of members absolutely can not make it and either/or choice.  We must make it AND.

Striving to seek the light within leads to us living the sort of life that has others ask to join us.  Being builders through the process of degrees, degree instruction, line and organizational efforts allow us to replicate forward into the next generation.  Even in the "lost generation" or "me generation" of late boomers who mostly did not join any society some joined our assemblies (I am among these).  Even without those of my generation the generation before me lived long enough to move Masonry forward to the generation after me.

As you post I grow less sure of what it is you intend to change.  If you encounter resistance, understand that the first lesson we learn is patience.  For many including me it's the hardest to learn.  Also understand that water is patient.  When faced with a wall water will seek a way over that wall, under that wall, around that wall, or to gradually erode the wall away by action of the waves.  By discussing a switch from jurisdiction to jurisdiction might you be trying to work around an obstacle by going the longest possible way?  I suggest that you likely don't even need to leave your lodge just do it, whatever "it" is.


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## Archangel Raised

Wise words Worshipful Brother.  Thank you!


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## acjohnson53

The only way a PHA Brother be a member of another Lodge is by Demit. or change affiliation to that Lodge.and he must be in good standing..A Brother can visit any Lodge he wants, but he must have a good dues card....


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## MRichard

acjohnson53 said:


> The only way a PHA Brother be a member of another Lodge is by Demit. or change affiliation to that Lodge.and he must be in good standing..A Brother can visit any Lodge he wants, but he must have a good dues card....



Actually, there are a few PHA jurisdictions that allow plural or dual memberships. I think Minnesota is one.


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## acjohnson53

Okay, but I don't have that kinda Money for all them dues...


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## MRichard

acjohnson53 said:


> Okay, but I don't have that kinda Money for all them dues...



It depends on the dues. Each lodge is different. There are local lodges around here that charge $250 annually while there are some that may charge as low as $50. Quite a few belong to multiple lodges òut here. I can only afford one now and the Shrine dues. But I would like to be able to join other lodges in the near future.


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## Ripcord22A

acjohnson53 said:


> The only way a PHA Brother be a member of another Lodge is by Demit. or change affiliation to that Lodge.and he must be in good standing..A Brother can visit any Lodge he wants, but he must have a good dues card....


Ive been told this multiple times...my question is what if a bro buys a life/endowed membership and then moves to another jurisdiction...does he have to give that lifetime membership up?

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## Glen Cook

Do PHA have life/endowed/perpetual memberships?


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## Derinique Kendrick

Glen Cook said:


> Do PHA have life/endowed/perpetual memberships?


From my understanding yes. A PM of my lodge and DDGM brags about it all the time lol


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## Jeff Thomas

dwashington55 said:


> I am AF&AM and would like to become PHA. Does anyone know what to do? I've spoke to a few brothers and no one had an answer.


Got to the PHA website find a lodge


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## Glen Cook

Jeff Thomas said:


> Got to the PHA website find a lodge


That’s about a four year old post. He may not be following.


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## acjohnson53

acjohnson53 said:


> Okay, but I don't have that kinda Money for all them dues...



He's not a Prince Hall Mason....


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## acjohnson53

firs just start allt it's gotta be voted on by the Craft, liked all petitions, or they can start all over to eliminate the process of healing.


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## coachn

Glen Cook said:


> That about a four year old post. He may not be following.


<snicker> Statistically, he may not even be a member at this point...


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## TheThumbPuppy

coachn said:


> <snicker> Statistically, he may not even be a member at this point...



He'll get your message through his toaster : )


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## Winter

Sadly, this is all we get on this forum now is a necropost here and there or a drive by I want to be a Mason from X country. It used to be a fairly vibrant forum. 

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## coachn

Winter said:


> Sadly, this is all we get on this forum now is a necropost here and there or a drive by I want to be a Mason from X country. It used to be a fairly vibrant forum.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


<sigh> yup


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## Bloke

Winter said:


> Sadly, this is all we get on this forum now is a necropost here and there or a drive by I want to be a Mason from X country. It used to be a fairly vibrant forum.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk





coachn said:


> <sigh> yup



Things ebb and flow Brothers.. but one thing is always with us - necroposting !
I often don't mind it when it bumps interesting stuff, but an antient operational question with a simple answer... well, no so interesting..


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## TheThumbPuppy

Excuse my old-geezer bad-tempered rant, but why don't some of the moaners post a "vibrant" thread instead of complaining?
It's not what your _forum_ can do for you, it's what you can do for your _forum_.


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