# Questions about Masonry



## slidelock (Jan 27, 2014)

I am currently 15. I have had interest in the craft for several years now. This is because I have a profound interest in esoteric knowledge. 

Because of this I have many books on the subject, including, the Kybalion, thought forms, the secret teachings of all ages, Atlantis and lemuria, the enteral tablet, the corpus hermetica among others written by Aleister Crowley, of whom I don't have much of an opinion on. Right now my favorite authors are of course Hermes Trismegistus, Manly P hall, and Elliphas Levi. 

I am starting to get into ceremonial magic, at least as much as a 15 year old can get at least. I mostly do things with the Lesser Banishing ritual of the pentagram, which was constructed by the Golden Dawn. 

Anyhow, enough about me, I have a couple questions about the fraternity. 

I am aware that I am to young to petition at the moment, otherwise I would have done so already. 

Anyhow, here are my questions:

1.) Does freemasonry study hermetic sciences?

2.) Does freemasonry study magic (or magick if you prefer) in any way?

3.) what's the difference between the Scottish rite and the New York rite?

4.) Are most masons interested in the esoteric side of Masonry, or more the morals it teaches you? 

5.) How are secrets handed down? By book? Mentor? Through initiations and rituals?

6.) How long does it take to become a master mason as soon as you get accepted into the lodge?

7.) What does freemasonry mean to you?

If you can't answer some of these questions without giving out Masonic secrets then do not answer it. And I apologize for asking such a question if the only way to answer it would be to do so. 

Am I doing the right thing by studying and reading as much as I can on the Ancient philosophies and Kabbalah and the like? Or should I wait? 

I ask for your help in my search for truth!

Namaste!


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## MarkR (Jan 28, 2014)

I'll take a shot at them:



*1.) Does freemasonry study hermetic sciences?*  Some individual Masons do.  I've done a little reading into it.  Some Masonic authors see quite a bit of connection between Freemasonry and Hermeticism/alchemy, some dismiss it. However, if you expect to experience discussion of it in any depth in a Lodge, you'll be disappointed.

*2.) Does freemasonry study magic (or magick if you prefer) in any way?*  No.

*3.) what's the difference between the Scottish rite and the New York rite?*  It's Scottish and York Rite, not New York. I'm only Scottish Rite myself, so I'm not really qualified to discuss the differences.  

*4.) Are most masons interested in the esoteric side of Masonry, or more the morals it teaches you?* No, unfortunately, I'd say most Masons are not interested in the esoteric side of Masonry.  The reality has always been that very few Masons do any reading about Masonry on their own, and don't know much about the esoteric side that they aren't given in a Lodge Education session, and those are, by necessity, very short.  Most Masons are in it simply for the fraternalism and the charitable works, which is fine, but it's not what you're talking about.

*5.) How are secrets handed down? By book? Mentor? Through initiations and rituals?*  The "secrets" are largely involving our methods of recognition and parts of the rituals for conferring the degrees.  Those you'll receive in the initiations and rituals.

If you're expecting earth-shattering revelations from Freemasonry, again, you'll be disappointed.  It sounds trite to say it, but the important secrets of Freemasonry are already within you, and if you become a Mason who studies and reflects on the information available to you on your own, they'll reveal themselves to you gradually.  They can be different for different Masons, as well, because how the lessons impact you will be filtered through your life's experiences.

*6.) How long does it take to become a master mason as soon as you get accepted into the lodge?*  This varies by Masonic jurisdiction.  It can be as quick as a "one day to Masonry" class conducted by the Grand Lodge to as much as a year or two, depending on the requirements to advance to the next degree and how quickly you can complete them.  Most common in America is one month between each of the degrees, so for example if you got the Entered Apprentice degree in January, you'd get the Fellowcraft in February and the Master Mason in March.

*7.) What does freemasonry mean to you?*  It's very hard to put into words.  Brother Ernest Borgnine (you may be too young to know who he was) raised a bit of a fuss when he said that Freemasonry was all the religion he needed.  Anti-Masons jumped on this, and said "see, we told you Freemasonry was a religion!"  But I knew exactly what he meant: for him, Freemasonry filled the place in his life that religion fills for many other people.  It gave him peace, a direction in his life, and a fellowship with his fellow man.  He was not saying that it taught him a path to salvation or a religious dogma.  If you are a church-going person, Freemasonry can supplement and support that.  If you're not, but are a man of faith, Freemasonry gives you that place to escape from the profane world and contemplate your place in the universe.

I hope this puts a very small dent in your questions.


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## Blake Bowden (Jan 28, 2014)

slidelock said:


> I am currently 15. I have had interest in the craft for several years now. This is because I have a profound interest in esoteric knowledge.
> 
> Because of this I have many books on the subject, including, the Kybalion, thought forms, the secret teachings of all ages, Atlantis and lemuria, the enteral tablet, the corpus hermetica among others written by Aleister Crowley, of whom I don't have much of an opinion on. Right now my favorite authors are of course Hermes Trismegistus, Manly P hall, and Elliphas Levi.
> 
> ...



1. Some Masons do. For example next month I will be attending a presentation on Hermeticism. 
2. No.
3. Both are appendant bodies. Unless you are a Mason, don't worry about it right now.
4. It depends on the Mason. For example, some are content with fellowship while others may seek the esoteric aspects of the Craft. 
5. It depends on the Jurisdiction (State or Country) you live in but generally it's handed down via mouth to ear. It may take weeks, months or years to learn the work. 
6. It depends on the Jurisdiction (State or Country) you live in. 
7. It's consistent and provides a means to improve yourself as a person. 

What truth are you seeking?


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## JJones (Jan 28, 2014)

I think the brothers above answered your questions very accurately.  I would like to suggest that you avoid anything written by Crowley if you want to do any serious research since he was never a mason and a bit...eccentric to boot.

I like your initiative however, sounds like you've already done quite a bit of research.


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## slidelock (Jan 28, 2014)

I am looking for truth in general. It's a hard thing for me to define, and to be honest I have attempted doing so in the past. I'd like to say I'm looking for the truth of the gods and what they mean, or the truth of the old texts (the bible, etc.) 


I am a truth seeker though, and I will go it whenever it manifests itself in front of me. Overall I am seeking my divine will and I am seeking light. 

Hopefully that makes sense. 

@JJones, Yes, I not much of a fan of him. I've personally only read the book of the law and Liber Al. It is not my intention to become a thelemnite but to simply know what's out there. 

Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## Browncoat (Jan 28, 2014)

Here's the perspective of someone relatively new to Masonry:

1.) Does freemasonry study hermetic sciences?
No, not really. As others above have already mentioned, this can vary depending on location, but overall, no. 

2.) Does freemasonry study magic (or magick if you prefer) in any way?
Nope.

3.) what's the difference between the Scottish rite and the New York rite?
Given the scope of your reading material, you may be interested in Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike, which covers the Scottish Rite in great detail. 

4.) Are most masons interested in the esoteric side of Masonry, or more the morals it teaches you?
There are few hard and fast wide-sweeping rules in Freemasonry. Practices can vary a great deal by jurisdiction, and even more on the individual level. Freemasonry on the grand scale is more of a framework as opposed to a step-by-step handbook or set of rules.

5.) How are secrets handed down? By book? Mentor? Through initiations and rituals?
All of the above. Though again, there is no universal book. 

6.) How long does it take to become a master mason as soon as you get accepted into the lodge?
This was already answered above. Usually about 3 months or so for US Masons. In some countries it can take up to 7 years.

7.) What does freemasonry mean to you?
Someone told me that the path to world domination began with pancake breakfasts. I'm in it for the inevitable New World Order. 

You sound a lot like me when I was 15...curious about the BIG question: why are we here? I read everything about history and religion that I could get my hands on. Funny that in my readings, I stumbled across Freemasonry as well, which piqued my curiosity.

There are no big secrets in Freemasonry, I will tell you that much. Nothing of legend caliber, no Fountain of Youth or mysterious ritual or magical enchantment that unlocks the secrets of the universe. Masons are not gatekeepers or guardians of mystical lore or treasure. In short, if you are seeking "the answer", Freemasonry isn't it.

Freemasonry different things to different people, and some definitely get more out of it than others. There is a TON of history and applicable knowledge to be gained.


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## dfreybur (Jan 28, 2014)

slidelock said:


> I am currently 15. I have had interest in the craft for several years now. This is because I have a profound interest in esoteric knowledge.



Ah the exuberance of youth.  Keep it up but also consider that rabbis who teach the Kaballah often require their students to be at least 40.  In mysticism there are advantages to both youth and maturity and they are very different advantages.



> Because of this I have many books on the subject, including, the Kybalion, thought forms, the secret teachings of all ages, Atlantis and lemuria, the enteral tablet, the corpus hermetica among others written by Aleister Crowley, of whom I don't have much of an opinion on. Right now my favorite authors are of course Hermes Trismegistus, Manly P hall, and Elliphas Levi.
> 
> I am starting to get into ceremonial magic, at least as much as a 15 year old can get at least. I mostly do things with the Lesser Banishing ritual of the pentagram, which was constructed by the Golden Dawn.



Take your time but it is likely you will find more of interest in the OTO than in Masonry.  At one level the OTO and Golden Dawn are splinter groups who left Masonry because they had interest in topics completely ignored by the vast majority of Masons.



> 1.) Does freemasonry study hermetic sciences?



Having hermetic features in our degrees and studying the topic are two very different issues.  The features are there for the looking.  Any sort of formal study of the topic is limited to books you have already mentioned plus the type of person who tended to go with the OTO when the group split.  Are you aware that most studies of the topic are completely individual using written material generations old and teachers of the topic are so few and far between they need to be sought by quest?  As such the material is consistent with our rituals but you're largely on your own in your studies within Masonry or almost anywhere else.  Within the OTO or similar groups I don't know how prevalent teachers are.  Here I use "OTO" as a shorthand for an entire class of organizations interested in the topic - You likely know their names better than we do.  Thelma, Golden Dawn, you name it.



> 2.) Does freemasonry study magic (or magick if you prefer) in any way?



Again having magickal features in our degrees and studying magick are not the same thing.

You may be familiar with the distinction between thaumaturgy (working change in the outside world by way of intent) and theurgy (working change in the world inside our own heads by way of intent).

The best thaumaturgy has always been an evolution of what works (trial and error) to what works consistently (art and artisanry through skill) to what is understood (craft) to what is used (technology) to what is known to be possible (science).  Masonry teaches us to be students of classical education to work to the strength of this discovery process.  Working the weak end of this spectrum in the form of ceremonial magick, not so much and that's why the OTO folks went their own way a century ago.

The best theurgy has always been an evolution of what works (meditation, trance work, etc) to what works consistently (the transformation of personal excellence through practicing our tenants) to what is understood (psychology) to what is used (Neuro-Linguistic Processing).  Masonry absolutely teaches a very effective form of theurgy at many levels in our activities.  The way we phrase what we do you'd never know that without looking at our activities from that viewpoint, though.  But notice that modern systems like NLP actually do this work in very effective manners and they don't have any mystical content at all.  That's exactly the same evolution that turned weaving from a magical activity through the spectrum of mystery to mundane technology millennia ago but with NLP it's happening in the last several decades.

In both cases the evolution towards effectiveness has come with an evolution towards the mundane.  There is no coincidence in this and it is why few Masons are interested int he mystical as such.  We use the mystical every day in our mundane lives because the greatest hits of mysticism long ago converted to the mundane.

You will note that other responses here to your question were "No".  It takes understanding what is meant by theurgy to reach any answer other than "no" and not one in a thousand Masons over the age of 40 have ever had any interest in the topic.  Many more in the younger generation are interested in such topics but you will still find them few and far between.  Unless the expertise is to be found in the OTO



> 3.) what's the difference between the Scottish rite and the New York rite?



Both require all of their members to be Master Masons.  Not related to your other questions at this level.



> 4.) Are most masons interested in the esoteric side of Masonry, or more the morals it teaches you?



The word "esoteric" isn't even used by Masons to refer to the mystical.  Above I mentioned rough estimates of how many Masons you need to meet before meeting any interested in the mystical.  The way we use the word distills that down to its essence.



> 5.) How are secrets handed down? By book? Mentor? Through initiations and rituals?



Depends on what secrets you mean.  The type you're asking about, not at all because the material is in very old books.  We have secrets that can be shouted from the rooftops without compromising them through secrets that are only handed down in person, but none of them are the type you appear to be asking around.  At least not directly.  If you intend to seek the indirect connections, you basically need to be in that over-40 age class I referred to above for learning Kabbalah and for exactly the same patience oriented reasons.  Seek direct correlation and you're setting yourself up for frustration and disappointment.



> 6.) How long does it take to become a master mason as soon as you get accepted into the lodge?



One day to 3 or more years, with the value of results directly correlated with the effort and time put into it.  The reason the 1 day methods work at all is achieving official status as a Master Mason is the *start* of the journey not the *destination* of the journey.



> 7.) What does freemasonry mean to you?



This is a Zen koan really.



> Am I doing the right thing by studying and reading as much as I can on the Ancient philosophies and Kabbalah and the like? Or should I wait?



It's a noble endeavor but it's a road that takes a lifetime and much perspective is needed.  You need to be able to express why both weaving cloth and working NLP are the mundane results of mystical study to be able to see the mystical value in Masonry.  Isaac Newton bridged the gap between the alchemical mystics and the mundane physical scientists.  Freemasonry came out into the public world during the changes that happened while Newton was alive.  That's not a coincidence.  There's a process of converting the mystical to the mundane and that process is viewed by complete by many, as ongoing by a few.  Masonry draws from the heart of that process and sure enough we are viewed as mundane by many of our members, mystical by a few.

These are not the driods you seek.  You can move along.  Return to us, Paduan, once you can explain why mundane NLP is a deeply mystical form of theurgy.  Because you will be disappointed and frustrated without that perspective walking among your adopted brothers who almost all state it is completely mundane.  But who are the "us" I refer to?  probably the OTO-like groups.


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## slidelock (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks for the answers everyone.



> Someone told me that the path to world domination began with pancake breakfasts. I'm in it for the inevitable New World Order.



Thanks for the chuckle. You should be quiet before the illuminati finds out you're talking about the NWO to a Neophyte. Haha!



> Take your time but it is likely you will find more of interest in the OTO than in Masonry. At one level the OTO and Golden Dawn are splinter groups who left Masonry because they had interest in topics completely ignored by the vast majority of Masons.



Thanks, and I've considered joining OTO in the past. I'm really not a big fan of Crowley though but his work is seen almost everywhere. I am into western occultism with a some eastern as well. If I do happen to go along that road I may also consider A.'.A.'. as well as Ordo templi orientis. 

You were very helpful @dfreybur, you saw where I was coming from, specifically on the question about magic in Masonry. I've knownt hat most Jews only start studying Kabballah from the age of 40, but I feel as though theres a difference between Jewish Kabbalah and Hermetic Qabballah, which goes into other religions as well and doesnt derive it's information from only the Zohar. There are definitly things about it that are the same though such as the tree of life and god names such as the tetragrammaton, Adonai, and etc. It was interesting to read your statements about NLP, as I have never read/heard something of the sort before, and I like to think that I've gotten around.

Before I started this thread I thought that all masons studied esoteric material. Everything I had been led to believe pointed toward that, as the only masons I know study things like Alchemy. They operate in other states though. They are excellent masons as well as men though.

I am a little confused now about what freemasonry offers. Its very interesting when everything you've been led to believe is only a half truth. Which I suppose should've been assumed from the start because of the hermetic axiom that every truth is but a half truth, which means that there are 2 sides to everything. 

Given the scope of your reading material, you may be interested in Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike, which covers the Scottish Rite in great detail. 


I've wanted to read it but I've been waiting until I at least petitioned to become a mason in order to do so. I have heard of a lot of hate on Albert Pike though, it's sad that the Taxil Hoax still remains strong today. Theres a lot of disinfo on the subject at masonry.

* However, if you expect to experience discussion of it in any depth in a Lodge, you'll be disappointed.
*

Thanks, that is disappointing.

Is there any reason why younger people are more interested in the esoteric side of things as oppose to the older folk in Masonry? I find this a little bizarre. 

Thanks for everyone who took time out of their day to respond today.

Respectfully,
Slidelock


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## dfreybur (Jan 29, 2014)

slidelock said:


> ... but I feel as though theres a difference between Jewish Kabbalah and Hermetic Qabballah, which goes into other religions as well and doesnt derive it's information from only the Zohar.



That's an issue for non-masonic discussion.  We don't discuss sectarian religion in our assemblies.



> It was interesting to read your statements about NLP, as I have never read/heard something of the sort before, and I like to think that I've gotten around.



It deals with how and why the mystical becomes the mundane and how they are not separate topics but rather different phases of the historical development of the same topics.   That's why I also mentioned how weaving evolved from the mystical to the mundane.



> Before I started this thread I thought that all masons studied esoteric material.



As there is mystical content in our degrees that is there for the noticing it's easy to come to this conclusion.  The fact is most brothers have no interest in noticing.  The degrees tell a story that appears in the Old Testament and that's that to a large majority of brothers.



> I am a little confused now about what freemasonry offers.



That's why I referred to it as a Zen koan.  Masonry offers much of value in domains you have not expressed interest in.



> I have heard of a lot of hate on Albert Pike though, it's sad that the Taxil Hoax still remains strong today. Theres a lot of disinfo on the subject at masonry.



In this statement you refer to non-Masons who are insane, tyrants, religious fanatics or the dupes of those.  I have little interest in the people making such claims other than to recognize when the line has been crossed from rationality to irrationality and to pray for the mental healing of those who are irrational.



> Is there any reason why younger people are more interested in the esoteric side of things as oppose to the older folk in Masonry? I find this a little bizarre.



I don't know if you'll consider it a useful reason, but interests varying widely in the form of generational trends that forms waves that wash across history.  The generation that had interest in the mystical was the late 1700s through early 1800s.  Then there was interest in mutual support, then in charity, then in large buildings, then in social events.  The generation that is aging out largely saw Masonry as a combination of social plus charity (consider the Shrine's motto "Having fun helping kids").  The books you are reading reflect an interest that was common a couple of centuries ago and that has seen little interest until now.  Just as the number of petitioners is once again increasing, the topics they tend to be interested in is different from most of the older members.

There is good news to the mystically inclined like me.  The interest remains rare but it not nearly as rare as it was.  It's going from one in a thousand to maybe as high as one in ten.  In a large discussion group I made a comment about Chakras that requires being a Master Mason to discuss.  One of the young brothers pulled out a notebook and showed me a color coded chart on the topic, where I was the only older brother who knew the word Chakra.

I'll ping you in a PM about some other issues you have mentioned.


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## rfuller (Jan 29, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> I don't know if you'll consider it a useful reason, but interests varying widely in the form of generational trends that forms waves that wash across history.  The generation that had interest in the mystical was the late 1700s through early 1800s.  Then there was interest in mutual support, then in charity, then in large buildings, then in social events.  The generation that is aging out largely saw Masonry as a combination of social plus charity (consider the Shrine's motto "Having fun helping kids").  The books you are reading reflect an interest that was common a couple of centuries ago and that has seen little interest until now.  Just as the number of petitioners is once again increasing, the topics they tend to be interested in is different from most of the older members.



I think you're absolutely spot on here. 

As one of the younger members, it's interesting to see how the previous generation has tried to cater to us.  There was this idea that Gen Y and the millennials were the microwave generation that wanted everything yesterday.  While this may be true to some degree, the answer was not One Day classes.  That stripped it of the very thing we were seeking.  I've been a mason for 10 years.  I'm 31.  I joined Freemasonry for the esoterics.  (Not quite mysticism, but more along those lines than say, charitable giving or a social club.)  I find a respite from fast paced, information-on-demand life I live in.  They assumed we would be too impatient for learning the catechisms and actually understanding the allegory and truly seeking more light.  They assumed we wanted a quicker version of what they themselves wanted.  

It's getting better now that more and more of us are finding our way into leadership.  Now that we've had time to learn for ourselves and have grown into masonry enough to think for ourselves, we're starting to understand where those missteps were and we try to correct them.  

I agree that OTO would probably be a better option for you personally, but I would also like to provide you with some hope that Freemasonry is in a shift.  Sure, we don't practice Magik if that's what you're after, but that's not to say there isn't esoteric knowledge to be found.  You've got a few years before you're eligible, and there's no telling where your path may lead you between now and then.  Certainly keep an open mind, and keep seeking.


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## dfreybur (Jan 29, 2014)

rfuller said:


> As one of the younger members, it's interesting to see how the previous generation has tried to cater to us.  There was this idea that Gen Y and the millennials were the microwave generation that wanted everything yesterday.  While this may be true to some degree, the answer was not One Day classes.  That stripped it of the very thing we were seeking.  I've been a mason for 10 years.  I'm 31.  I joined Freemasonry for the esoterics.  (Not quite mysticism, but more along those lines than say, charitable giving or a social club.)  I find a respite from fast paced, information-on-demand life I live in.  They assumed we would be too impatient for learning the catechisms and actually understanding the allegory and truly seeking more light.  They assumed we wanted a quicker version of what they themselves wanted.



There has also been pressure from appendant bodies to speed up their supply lines.  A percentage of the men who go through our degrees do so to get into one of the appendant bodies and in those cases I'm okay with fast degrees.  Most brothers don't come in with specific plans for the appendant bodies, though.



> It's getting better now that more and more of us are finding our way into leadership.  Now that we've had time to learn for ourselves and have grown into masonry enough to think for ourselves, we're starting to understand where those missteps were and we try to correct them.



I take it this is why we are returning to the world wide standard of stated in the first degree, why slower degrees are popular, why Masonic Education (which is NOT ritual instruction) is stressed and so on.

I've seen a lot of young brothers come in for philosophy, tradition, history and so on.  To me that has seemed even more common than the young men coming in for mysticism.  I would be surprised int he number coming in for mysticism reaches 1-in-10, but it would be pleasant surprise.


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