# Preston Webb and Duncan



## SimonM (Dec 27, 2016)

As an uninformed european I only have the most vague notions about the emulation rite and duncans rite. 
The names Preston and Webb was mentioned in another thread and I got curious. Are the ceremonies described by Duncan similar to the rites by Webb and Preston?
How much have the rites evolved in the US from when they were written?


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## CLewey44 (Dec 27, 2016)

@Glen Cook @coachn @dfreybur  among others may be best suited for this lol. If I missed someone that usually has a better understanding, my apologies but these guys came to mind though.


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## coachn (Dec 27, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> @Glen Cook @coachn @dfreybur  among others may be best suited for this lol. If I missed someone that usually has a better understanding, my apologies but these guys came to mind though.


Is there a question?


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## CLewey44 (Dec 27, 2016)

coachn said:


> Is there a question?



Yes, in the original post a gentleman was asking a question that's probably a little out of my spectrum.


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## coachn (Dec 27, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> Yes, in the original post a gentleman was asking a question that's probably a little out of my spectrum.


Oh!  Thanks.


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## SimonM (Dec 28, 2016)

coachn said:


> Is there a question?



I'm trying to get a grasp of the relationship between  the Duncan and Preston Webb rites. Are they close or are they separate branches on the masonic tree? 
For example, if I pick up a copy of Duncans monitor, would I see something similar to what Preston wrote?


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## Brother_Steve (Dec 28, 2016)

SimonM said:


> How much have the rites evolved in the US from when they were written?


This is a hard question to answer because each state is sovereign unto itself.


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## SimonM (Dec 28, 2016)

Brother_Steve said:


> This is a hard question to answer because each state is sovereign unto itself.



I know that each GL is sovereign, but what about when the rite was written, before it had time to diverge?


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## Brother_Steve (Dec 28, 2016)

SimonM said:


> I know that each GL is sovereign, but what about when the rite was written, before it had time to diverge?


Again, it depends on lineage.

The Grand Lodge of New Jersey has it's charter from England. Other states may originate from other recognized sources. Ancients vs. Moderns, etc.

I will do some research, if possible, to see what was practiced in New Jersey after our charter was granted from England. However, I want to say that our Masonic history predates the 1717 GL date.

I may be confused on the issue so I will get in touch with my secretary to see if the GL has any historical records (I'm sure they do) of masonry in NJ pre and post 1717.


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## MarkR (Dec 29, 2016)

As far as I understand it, Duncan's is not from any particular jurisdiction.  It was written as a Masonic exposure, is probably an amalgamation of several different versions of ritual, and was never the official ritual of any jurisdiction.


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## coachn (Dec 29, 2016)

Has anyone here looked at the years these guys were active and when their works were first published?


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## dfreybur (Dec 29, 2016)

The problem with comparing these rituals is one of them is an expose' and I've promised not to help anyone on expose's.  Expose' books are easy enough to find but they are books you have to find yourself.


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## SimonM (Dec 29, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> The problem with comparing these rituals is one of them is an expose' and I've promised not to help anyone on expose's.  Expose' books are easy enough to find but they are books you have to find yourself.





coachn said:


> Has anyone here looked at the years these guys were active and when their works were first published?



I know Preston wrote his major works in the late 18th century (1774 is the year I found) , Webb around 1800 and Duncan in 1866. What I wanted to know was if there was any similarities between the rituals but as @dfreybur points out, that might be a bad idea to discuss here.  

So, let me change the topic of this thread a bit. 
Preston and the later Webb was greatly influencial in how masonry was developed in the us. Are there any resources available describing the development of that rite? Are there any other major rites that is worked (by regular lodges) in america?


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## chrmc (Dec 30, 2016)

SimonM said:


> Preston and the later Webb was greatly influencial in how masonry was developed in the us. Are there any resources available describing the development of that rite?



A couple of year ago Brother Robert Davis published "The Mason's Words" about the history and development of the American ritual. It's a very good read and also touches on how the work came over from England. 

https://www.amazon.com/Masons-Words-History-Evolution-American/dp/061585382X


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## SimonM (Dec 30, 2016)

chrmc said:


> A couple of year ago Brother Robert Davis published "The Mason's Words" about the history and development of the American ritual. It's a very good read and also touches on how the work came over from England.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Masons-Words-History-Evolution-American/dp/061585382X



Sounds like just what I need, thanks!


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## drw72 (Dec 31, 2016)

SimonM said:


> Sounds like just what I need, thanks!



Very good book so far....I am reading it now (got mine through B&N online)


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## Brother JC (Dec 31, 2016)

Duncan didn't actually create a ritual, he wrote out a training aid. It was NOT an exposé. He felt the Brethren would be better served having the rituals at hand.
I will second the recommendation for Brother Davis's book, "The Mason's Words."


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## SimonM (Jan 1, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> Duncan didn't actually create a ritual, he wrote out a training aid. It was NOT an exposé. He felt the Brethren would be better served having the rituals at hand.


Do you know which ritual did he write the training aid for? Was it Emulation of some other rite?


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## Brother JC (Jan 1, 2017)

It is very similar to my American rituals so I'd guess a variation of Preston-Webb.

http://sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/index.htm


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## goomba (Jan 2, 2017)

What follow is my opinion and not fact.

The P-W work is not a uniformed work or at least what we refer to when we say P-W.  It is a general outline of which there are many differences between the various ways each grand lodge conducts this work.  For example I've been to lodge is Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, DC, and Maryland each of which use the P-W work and each are different.  However, they are very similar.  Location of information within the ritual, words of similar meaning, sentences reworked but with the same meaning, floor work, variations in placement of items (some omitted altogether) etc.  The difference's being so slight actually is making it hard for me to "forget" on way and learn another.

Let there be no illusion to any brother even in locations where there is only one authorized ritual done it is still different from lodge to lodge.  I would venture to say and ancient landmark of Masonry is that things are different.  The little differences (or large) show different aspects and possibly provide information that is "missing" or makes sense in the work.  The differences are beautiful and a part of our gentle craft.

These my two cents.  Happy new years brother.


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## Bloke (Jan 10, 2017)

chrmc said:


> A couple of year ago Brother Robert Davis published "The Mason's Words" about the history and development of the American ritual. It's a very good read and also touches on how the work came over from England.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Masons-Words-History-Evolution-American/dp/061585382X


Thanks - that looks interesting and is reasonably priced as an e-book


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## Dale Dietzman (Sep 7, 2019)

Bloke said:


> Thanks - that looks interesting and is reasonably priced as an e-book



Haven't read that particular work, however the best simple discussion of the ritual I have seen maintains that "Preston Webb" is a total misnomer. The Ritual usually denominated as such, and perhaps should just be called the "Webb Ritual", as used in most US Grand Lodges, is apparently descended almost directly from the ritual used in the pre-Union "Antients" Grand Lodge in England, or so at least some scholars maintain. While there are variations from one US GL to another, most are at least recognizably related to a common "school" in my experience. The same discussion claims that the "Emulation" ritual, approved (but not enforced) by the UGLE, is primarily descended from the ritual used in the pre-Union "Moderns" GL of England. Considering the amazing differences between the published "Emulation Ritual" books, and any common US working of the Ritual, I think there is at least a lot of truth in this argument. My own attempts to learn the "Emulation Ritual", from the approved publication of the "Emulation Lodge of Improvement" makes me wonder just how closely the two schools of ritual actually are. The previous mention of "Duncan's Ritual" in this discussion thread brings me to point out that whether it was ever exact in any US Jurisdiction, the ritual described therein definitely belongs to the "Webb" school. [I am told the ritual used under the GL of Pennsylvania is a whole different animal, and I have no direct knowledge to judge from on that.]


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## Phil Pearce (Oct 31, 2019)

To the OP: Yes.


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