# Turning in Proficiency



## Bro. A (Jan 26, 2019)

Greetings Brothers, 
I would like your thoughts on this...
Two candidates are initiated on the same night. They are assigned an instructor to begin studying their work. Now it's time to turn in proficiency... Do you let them "tag team" in answering the questions or do you have them turn in their own proficiency one at a time?


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## Thomas Stright (Jan 26, 2019)

One at a time.... Each needs to stand on his own.


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## Bro. A (Jan 26, 2019)

Thomas Stright said:


> One at a time.... Each needs to stand on his own.


I agree with that 100%. I feel as if you're "tag teaming " you're only doing 50% of the work in the quarry. That's just my opinion.


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## acjohnson53 (Jan 26, 2019)

Bro. A said:


> Greetings Brothers,
> I would like your thoughts on this...
> Two candidates are initiated on the same night. They are assigned an instructor to begin studying their work. Now it's time to turn in proficiency... Do you let them "tag team" in answering the questions or do you have them turn in their own proficiency one at a time?



To keep it short and sweet I prefer the tag team, simply because they have been instructed by their mentor (normally)the Junior Warden...and if they are sharp...


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Bro. A (Jan 26, 2019)

acjohnson53 said:


> To keep it short and sweet I prefer the tag team, simply because they have been instructed by their mentor (normally)the Junior Warden...and if they are sharp...
> Respect your opinion my Brother but I would have to disagree with you. I see it like this... if you're going up for a promotion for work, you have to interview and answer questions  on your own in order to get to that next level. It's a test on to see if you are "duly and truly prepared, worthy and well qualified"
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Schuetz (Jan 26, 2019)

An interesting idea would have one do the questions and the other answer, and then swap and start again. THAT would be some proficiency.

Quentin E. L. Schuetz, M.M.
Shekinah Lodge No. 241 • IL
Murphysboro Lodge No. 498 • IL


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## Brother JC (Jan 26, 2019)

I doubt either of my US lodges would do a tag team.


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## Bro. A (Jan 26, 2019)

Schuetz said:


> An interesting idea would have one do the questions and the other answer, and then swap and start again. THAT would be some proficiency.
> 
> Quentin E. L. Schuetz, M.M.
> Shekinah Lodge No. 241 • IL
> ...


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## Bro. A (Jan 26, 2019)

Brother JC said:


> I doubt either of my US lodges would do a tag team.



I don't think it should be allowed.


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## Garth H (Jan 26, 2019)

They have to learn the whole things regardless, as our instructor instructed my partner and I, we didn’t know who was going first until we sat down in that chair and he would then look at whoever was going to get the first question, from there you then have to know what questions you’ll be responsible for, yeah you’re doing “half the work” but you still have to know all the knowledge of the entire proficiency. 


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## CLewey44 (Jan 27, 2019)

Bro. A said:


> Greetings Brothers,
> I would like your thoughts on this...
> Two candidates are initiated on the same night. They are assigned an instructor to begin studying their work. Now it's time to turn in proficiency... Do you let them "tag team" in answering the questions or do you have them turn in their own proficiency one at a time?



Typically it's one on one, but one of my degrees (EA I believe) was done in that manner. We were very proficient in it and both had to do the 'ftm prm and swr' individually. With that being said, I think it should pretty much always be done one-on-one but the only perk of doing it double time would be if you had two, three or especially four FCs showing up on the same night and then the members having to sit there for an extra 30 mins to an hour listening to the cat lecture. Does that make it acceptable, not really and again, I agree it should be one-on-one. 

The biggest issues I see with proficiency/categorical lecture is not the above mentioned but more of the fact that pretty much no matter what, a guys is basically 100% of the time voted proficient. I've never seen anyone get voted down no matter how terrible or painful it was to sit there and listen to. Everyone makes mistakes and should not be expected perfection but I've seen guys get prompted and basically repeat back everything the questioner was saying to then ultimately getting voted as 'proficient'. I guess proficient in parroting. People are afraid to be the bearer of bad news or make a decision that effects others like saying 'you can't progress within the Craft'. It's a tough decision but needs to be done more often.  If two guys are up there nailing it like clockwork and making very few to no mistakes, I'd say they are more proficient than the guy that does it by himself and staggers through the entire thing. it's also challenging to get out of a rhythm with it and stay on track. When you learn the whole thing vs. skipping around from question to question, it's can be more difficult in some ways.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 27, 2019)

Garth H said:


> They have to learn the whole things regardless, as our instructor instructed my partner and I, we didn’t know who was going first until we sat down in that chair and he would then look at whoever was going to get the first question, from there you then have to know what questions you’ll be responsible for, yeah you’re doing “half the work” but you still have to know all the knowledge of the entire proficiency.


Exactly! So even if you "tag team" each candidate still has to memorize the whole proficiency.


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## Bro. A (Jan 27, 2019)

Brothers, I get what both of you are saying but i still don't agree with it. Yes, it's good to have a partner/partners to study with,  no issue there. But like i said before, its like going before a board for military promotion. You're in front of a panel and that panel is there to grade/vote on you as an individual to see if you're ready that next level. I mean that's how I look at it. And this is how I feel about it for myself...
Knowing that YOU walked into that room and knocked out that "proficiency" or "board" on your own is a great accomplishment. 
But good conversation brothers.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 27, 2019)

Bro. A said:


> Knowing that YOU walked into that room and knocked out that "proficiency" or "board" on your own is a great accomplishment.


I understand what you are saying. I did my proficiency alone. However, I would not feel any less accomplished if I had "tag teamed" with another Brother.


Bro. A said:


> But good conversation brothers.


For Sure! Good interacting with you.


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## Bro. A (Jan 27, 2019)

I hear you my brother. Glad we can all talk like men and no one is getting bent out of shape. I'd rather be on here than on FB or Twitter lol.


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## acjohnson53 (Jan 27, 2019)

It happened to me when I was raised, but we had 7 Brothers on my Cable Tow


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## Bro. A (Jan 27, 2019)

acjohnson53 said:


> It happened to me when I was raised, but we had 7 Brothers on my Cable Tow



Wow! That's alot my brother.


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## chrmc (Jan 28, 2019)

Bro. A said:


> Greetings Brothers,
> I would like your thoughts on this...
> Two candidates are initiated on the same night. They are assigned an instructor to begin studying their work. Now it's time to turn in proficiency... Do you let them "tag team" in answering the questions or do you have them turn in their own proficiency one at a time?



I doubt that they would necessarily be ready at the same time, but as most people say the lodges would probably do them seperately. 

However, interestingly enough, the various exams for Ritual Certificates are usually done "Round Robin" style as far as I know. So it is something that we see. But this is of course very different than a proficiency turn in.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 28, 2019)

Bro. A said:


> I hear you my brother. Glad we can all talk like men and no one is getting bent out of shape. I'd rather be on here than on FB or Twitter lol.


Agreed!


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## Thomas Stright (Feb 1, 2019)

acjohnson53 said:


> It happened to me when I was raised, but we had 7 Brothers on my Cable Tow



So much for a personal experience...


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## CLewey44 (Feb 1, 2019)

I think that each candidate should have their own degree night. This also keeps the lodge members sharper on ritual vs  doing it once a year for five or six guys. As for proficiency, it's important to have it down but I assure you, if two guys do it well in tandem they are profecient. That is the least of Masonry's problems.


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## Bro. A (Feb 1, 2019)

Having your own degree and proficiency  night is YOUR night. It means alot more in my opinion. And you're right there are other issues that need to be addressed in Freemasonry. But that's another subject.


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## CLewey44 (Feb 1, 2019)

Bro. A said:


> Having your own degree and proficiency  night is YOUR night. It means alot more in my opinion. And you're right there are other issues that need to be addressed in Freemasonry. But that's another subject.



Absolutely. Some GLs allow more than one which I find ridiculous. It's not about "pushing thru" as many candidates as possible. To me it's all about the experience. Also, like I said before, it gives lodges practice vs. doing it once a year or less resulting in an awful presentation. Recently a lodge I was at did four candidates at once. The lodge hadn't done an EA in about two years. It was very evident when at one point I thought we were just going to have to start over or give the candidates their money back.


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## Bro. A (Feb 1, 2019)

CLewey44 said:


> Absolutely. Some GLs allow more than one which I find ridiculous. It's not about "pushing thru" as many candidates as possible. To me it's all about the experience. Also, like I said before, it gives lodges practice vs. doing it once a year or less resulting in an awful presentation. Recently a lodge I was at did four candidates at once. The lodge hadn't done an EA in about two years. It was very evident when at one point I thought we were just going to have to start over or give the candidates their money back.



That's crazy. That's the whole purpose of floor school. We as the younger generation have to bring back the proper ritual of the Blue Lodge and really start learning and practicing regularly. It can be embarrassing when you have brothers visiting from other lodges during a degree and that lodge is making multiple mistakes. You want your lodge to be known as a strong and knowledgeable lodge. Again, floor school is important.


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## Brother JC (Feb 1, 2019)

CLewey44 said:


> To me it's all about the experience.



Indeed! The Initiatic Experience has already been so watered down as to be unrecognizable in some areas, to turn it into a discount store version is heartbreaking.


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## Bro. A (Feb 1, 2019)

I can say that my E.A. and FC degrees were actually pretty good. I didn't know what to expect and that made it that more meaningful. You want each degree to mean something to you. I'm hoping my MM degree will be just as exciting as the preceding degrees.
But I have been to other lodges for both EA and FC degrees and I do hear some mistakes during the ritual. Every lodge isn't perfect, I get that but we as a Brotherhood and The world's greatest Fraternity need to stick to the ritual as our Brothers who have gone this way before us have and actually learn it. It has to survive!


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## dfreybur (Feb 3, 2019)

An important point of round robin is every Brother has to know it all. At any one point the mentor could double up and reverse who's doing what answer. And the entire obligation MUST be delivered by every candidate. As long as that is done I'm sort of okay doing it in small groups.

But. Only in a lodge that's doing at least two nights of degrees per month so it's the only way to fit everyone on the calendar. If your lodge has had a stated meeting without a proficiency in the last 3 months, your lodge has time to do them individually.

I think the same about scheduling degrees but less so. A lot of candidates very much like walking on the floor in a degree as a team of 2 or 3. With every candidate doing the obligation individually and completely.

Having degrees with candidates in the audience, I did my Scottish Rite degrees like that so I know it works. I've worked through the line of chairs with guys who got their degrees like that so I know it works. But I'm still gratified that most candidates like degrees in person or on the floor as small teams.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 3, 2019)

dfreybur said:


> An important point of round robin is every Brother has to know it all. At any one point the mentor could double up and reverse who's doing what answer. And the entire obligation MUST be delivered by every candidate.


Exactly! This is why I would have been o.k. if someone was taking the proficiency at the same time as me. As you have no idea of the order in which the questions are going to be asked you still have to have memorized the entire thing.


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## Bloke (Feb 13, 2019)

Bro. A said:


> Greetings Brothers,
> I would like your thoughts on this...
> Two candidates are initiated on the same night. They are assigned an instructor to begin studying their work. Now it's time to turn in proficiency... Do you let them "tag team" in answering the questions or do you have them turn in their own proficiency one at a time?


We tag team them - but don't tell then which sections they will be doing.. This is not a lodge choice, it is prescribed by our book of workings..


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 13, 2019)

Bloke said:


> We tag team them - but don't tell then which sections they will be doing.. This is not a lodge choice, it is prescribed by our book of workings..


Nothing wrong with that....you still have to know the whole proficiency in order to pass.


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