# Exorcism



## Blake Bowden (Jun 21, 2013)

What's your opinion of Exorcism? Are people actually possessed by Demons or is it more of a mental health issue?


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## LiamHealy (Jun 21, 2013)

I believe it's a mental health issue. Either through confusion or other diseases which could cause delusions.  


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## dew_time (Jun 21, 2013)

LiamHealy said:


> I believe it's a mental health issue. Either through confusion or other diseases which could cause delusions.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Agreed

Sent from my LG-VM696


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## BEDickey (Jun 21, 2013)

I believe it is a combination of things. Most people who act that was suffer from what ancient people called the loss of a soul. Most politicians now adays suffer the same thing, which can be seen in there willingness to drone-bomb innocent people in the middle east. People who have murdered everything inside them that is human. In that state it would be easy for some kind of entity to take control, or to make others think as such. But I think that is extremely rare, and no exorcism would fix it.


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## El Dud3rino (Jun 21, 2013)

I agree, the loss of a soul or spiritual center is what brings this on. People look for reasons to not be accountable or responsible for them selfs or their actions.
Maybe 15 minutes in front of a mirror would help them out.


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## BryanMaloney (Jun 21, 2013)

"Loss of soul" (psychopathy/sociopathy/antisocial personality disorder) is very much unlike the sorts of behaviors that are generally considered candidates for exorcism. Someone who is socially high functioning but entirely self-centered and amoral will never find himself in front of an exorcist. Evil is very often neither ugly nor socially unacceptable.


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## LiamHealy (Jun 21, 2013)

It could also be loss of faith? =) 


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## El Dud3rino (Jun 21, 2013)

I think it would be a case by case. True a high functioning antisocial/sociopath would not be a candidate for that, they would slip under or over the radar. And we could or would look at them with a loss of faith, soul or devoid of a spiritual compass. But only after we see their true nature.
I don't believe in devils or demons embodying people. I think it is a case of what the person wants to give their being too. If someone wants to embrace light, God, goodness, positive spiritual things then that is the path they are on. 
Same can be said for someone going down a negative path. If they follow something of that nature they will be negative or dark, maybe possessed by a devil or demon. 
This is the long point I was starting to make earlier. The person does not want to own what they did or thought. 
We all know people who speak negative, do negative, think negative, etc. And then wonder why them, start to move back to the light and then realize something negative had taken them over.
Was it something negative? Or their own actions?


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## JJones (Jun 21, 2013)

I think there are probably forces at work that we can't understand as humans...

That being said, I think most cases of possession are likely some sort of mental illness.


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## widows son (Jun 21, 2013)

Mental illness. I find it very hard to believe there are actual demons possessing people.


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Jun 21, 2013)

We are all working to exercise our demons and subdue our passions...but those that seek to blame a demon for their weaknesses are looking in the wrong place for the cause of their problems.


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## El Dud3rino (Jun 22, 2013)

How ever all of this being said, it does make for some really good scary movies! 


Brother Joel
EA Mason
Epes Randolph Lodge #32


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## Godfrey Daniel (Jun 23, 2013)

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> We are all working to exercise our demons





Are you channeling Richard Simmons?   "Sweatin' With Satan"   5-6-6-6-7-8    C'mon girls, raise those cloven hooves higher.


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## dfreybur (Jun 23, 2013)

Blake Bowden said:


> What's your opinion of Exorcism? Are people actually possessed by Demons or is it more of a mental health issue?



I think it's far more a matter of definition and belief than a matter of either or.  Should one accept the existence of spirits there would be no distinction between possession and one type of mental illness.  Should one not accept the existence of spirits it would all be various types of mental illness.

No instrument has ever been devised that detects spirits so one should be inclined to treat possession as a mental illness until such an instrument is devised.  Consider that bacterial infection was thought to be caused by spirits until the microscope was invented.  Before the microscope treatments for infection were random and there effectiveness was small.  That does sound like the current state of the art in treating mental illness doesn't it?

I conclude from this the answer is best based on how effective treatments are.  Does exorcism work?  Apparently only rarely.  Does psychiatry work?  I would like better data to be able to answer.  Spiritual possession seems unlikely but not impossible - Either way mental illness is a secular phrasing that says the exact same thing in a different language.  The two descriptions translate to each other without actually meaning different ideas.


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## Hndrx (Jun 24, 2013)

In the 1990's, while working in a home bound teaching program for a Texas county level special education co-op, I had a 1st grade student that was actually possessed.  I don't really say that lightly because I actually had the opportunity to "test" her.  For a long time she had exhibited many classic "possession" behaviors but they could all be dismissed as physiological problems very easily.  However, I began to notice that she often knew unknowable knowledge or knew about things that happened outside of her presence.  I decided to test this one day.  While she was working at her desk with her back to me, I looked at her and thought "If you are really possessed, get up and pick up the shoes in the corner."  She instantly put down her pencil, stood up, walked to the corner of the room, looked at me, picked up the shoes, gave me the most evil grin that I've ever seen, set the shoes down, and walked back to her desk and resumed her work.  Neither of us spoke a word during the incident.  (There were a great many other similar unexplainable things that she did or occurred around her.  For example, in her rages, it would require a group of adults to subdue her due to her extreme strength.)

This encounter forever changed how I view the issue of demons/exorcism.  I've attempted to make a study of it and in recent years I have become involved in a situation that involves infestation/oppression.  Some of the things that have happened in this newer situation have been witnessed by multiple people.

I know how crazy this sounds but I assure you that I don't have any mental issues.  I'm a former teacher and have been a computer systems engineer for the last 16 years.  I'm a very rational and logically minded individual.  It hasn't been easy for me to accept the reality of such things.


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## crono782 (Jun 24, 2013)

I would be most interested to read that study should it ever be published. I am on the fence about the issue personally. I feel as though there are spirits/energies/demonic forces present in our world, but unclear as to their interaction with our plane of existence. 


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## Hndrx (Jun 25, 2013)

I'll try to summarize my thoughts on the subject:

1.  No one really and truly knows a lot about the subject.  Only small fragments of information can be gleaned from a mass of speculation.  I'll issue the caveat that I'm no expert, don't know much, and could be wrong on one or more points.  I've tried very hard to sift through information that ranges from obviously nutty to unprovable.  I've found that a very limited number of people seem to have real info on the subject.  They all are willing to admit that they don't understand much of what is going on.  I myself had the aforementioned encounter in the 90's and have also been involved in an ongoing situation in recent years.  (I don't really want to give a lot of detail on the ongoing situation.  However, I've drawn a LOT of conclusions from it.)  I've talked with a handful of otherwise rational, intelligent, professional, and level headed people that seem to have legitimate experiences.  I'm not talking about the kind of people you see on TV, but people that don't even really like to talk about it openly.  It is VERY difficult to get people to talk about the real deal.  

2.  I really wish that I could still think of demons as a metaphor for human problems and struggles instead of a real possibility.  Most people's demons are symbolic.  However, not all are purely symbolic.  Some are very real.  I've even come to the conclusion that they are fairly common.

3.  Think of demons as predators.  Just like a predator they can hunt in packs, look for the weak and those separated from the "herd", etc.

4.  Mental illness can be very commonly mistaken for demonic troubles.  You NEVER want to tell a mentally ill person that they have problem with demons.  It WILL make their problems worse.  That being said, the mentally ill are often attacked by demons.  It goes back to the fact that demons are predatory and often look for the "weak" to "hunt".  The same goes for many other issues and problems that people have such as abuse, drugs, etc.  They often seek out those that are easy targets.

5.  We think of possession as a demon "living" inside of a person.  I'm not 100% sure that is the actual case.  I have a theory that they are not actually physically located anywhere in particular in the strict sense of physical terms.  Think of a chess game.  You aren't "inside" of the game or the individual pieces when you play.  You are observing the game and reaching in and manipulating the pieces on the board.  I don't know if that is the best analogy but understand that I'm not sure that they are limited to a single location at any particular moment.

6.  They are varied in type, power, interests, etc.  They aren't carbon copies of each other.   We often classify animals in the biological world.  You can think of demons as a "class" of entities as well.

7.  They are very evil, persistent, vengeful, capable of team work, immortal, intelligent, and you really don't want to mess with them useless you are forced into the situation.

8.  There is some sort of connection between demons and some ghost phenomenon.  I'm not saying that all ghost phenomenon is caused by demons but at least some percentage of it is related to demonic activity.  They like to mimic dead people and are good at it.

9.  They tend not to operate openly.  They like to be the hidden influence.  They especially don't like to become known to people that don't believe in them.

10.  They have at least some ability to read minds, know the past, and predict the future.  This makes them very dangerous.

11.  Demons are all about deception and lies.

12.  Do not try to communicate with demons.  They tend to follow and attack people that communicate with them.

13.  Do not try to communicate with any spirit or ghost.  Demons like to mimic dead people.  This is the real reason that ouija boards and similar forms of "communication" are dangerous.  They regard talking to them as "permission" to attack you.

14.  Exorcism isn't an instant cure.  It is an ongoing battle with attacks and counter attacks until they move on to easier targets.  In the second situation that I alluded to, we performed multiple house blessings (ie., minor exorcisms) before it had a major effect.

15.  Demons may "haunt" locations, people, and even families through generations.

16.  You can't get rid of demons if you keep letting them back into your life.  No amount of exorcism will work if you keep allowing them back in.

17.  For whatever reason, some people are more susceptible to demonic influence than others.  I spoke with a minister that has very quietly dealt with demonic situations for a long time and he told me that he had seen cases when a child had become very involved in satanism for a time and never appeared to come under demonic attack and other cases when a child did something only a single time and was attacked from all directions.

18.  Demons appear to attack women at a much higher rate than they attack men.  That isn't to say that they don't attack men.  However, they seem to attack women at a very much greater rate.  I don't have a good theory as to why.

19.  A lot of people dismiss the topic of demons/exorcism because it is both very, very scary and has strong world view/religious implications.  Most people prefer a head in the sand approach to the issue.

20.  Demons are inhuman.  By that I mean that they have never been human.  They are intelligent non-human, non-biological entities.  (Some people would argue that some demons might be former humans.  I don't know about that one way or the other.)

21.  As to the origin of demons, Christian theology generally points to the idea that they are non-human intelligent beings (ie., angels) that served God at one time but have rebelled and now war against both God and mankind.  I believe this to be the case and my belief is supported by the fact that demons have a very strong aversion to the name of Christ, invocation of the authority of God, etc.  My wife and I have observed this in person with the ongoing situation that I referred to earlier.  As a matter of fact, after one of the last house blessings that we did in that situation, a disembodied voice spoke to my wife when she was alone and said, "You may have gotten rid of us but wait until you meet our father."  I'm not joking or making that up.  My wife is an intelligent, knowledgeable, and educated person.  At one time, she didn't even believe in the existence of demons.

22.  There are several levels of demonic influence in the following order from least to worst:  infestation, oppression, and possession.  Infestation and oppression are by far the most common types of demonic influence.  Infestation normally takes the form of generic haunting type activities and is the precursor to an oppression attempt.  (Infestation is more indirect in nature.)  Oppression is a gradually increasing series of attacks that impose thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc. that seek to isolate and mentally weaken a person.  Possession occurs whenever the degree of demonic influence is so strong that they can directly and quickly control a person.  I don't know how common possession is.  However, I think that infestation and oppression are actually very common.

23.  Demonic activity cannot be measured in an empirical fashion.  Therefore no one can "prove" anything about it.  It is a topic that is full of peril from both an intellectual, personal, and theological standpoint.  Furthermore, you run the risk of sounding like a nut if you talk about it. Lastly, it doesn't help that a lot of crazies are attracted to the subject and see demons around every corner and under every rock.

24.  Harry Potter, Dungeons and Dragons, etc. are not demonic.  They are simple fiction and fun.  Too much time is wasted on red herrings and it makes logical discussion of the subject difficult.  Some of you will think that the fact that I regard ouija boards as a problem is contradictory to the statement that I just made.  I'll admit that is confusing but too many people have had very negative results from ouija boards and other attempts at communication.  I think therein lies the difference.  I think it is the act of communication that makes the difference.  If you take a person with a natural venerability and combine that with even a half-hearted attempt at communication then you could have a problem.

25.  Demons are attracted to strife, anger, abuse, hate, etc.  They thrive in that type of environment.  If you or someone you are with is having demonic trouble, you must get control of your emotions, problems, temptations, etc. or your own issues will be used as a weapon against you and people around you.

26.  Demons look for something to give them permission or a foothold to enter in and then expand their control and influence.  An analogy might be a dyke with a leak.  At first the water comes through slowly but as the hole erodes out, more and more water begins to come through until the dyke breaks and a wall of water comes in.

27.  They are capable of imposing temptations, thoughts, etc. on anyone.  Don't think that you are immune.  The danger lies in acting on those initial thoughts and emotions.  Their influence grows as you act on those thoughts.  By the way, I'm not saying that all temptations, bad thoughts, etc. are demonic.  (Most are not.)  I'm saying that if demons are attacking someone or a group of people, they will use imposed thoughts/emotions as weapons against you.

28.  I've studied cases where various methods are used to "exorcise" demons from locations or people.  Most of the time, a "Hollywood" type exorcism is not done.  Simple prayers, house blessings, and help of the person to overcome their issues are highly effective in many cases.  Sitting someone in a chair and doing an exorcism on them is a last resort for hardcore cases.

29.  Christian prayers, symbols, etc. are more effective than other methods.  I've studied a number of other peoples cases and in my own observations have found that to be true.

30.  I'll repeat that I could be wrong on some points.  However, once you have personally seen demonic activity.  It will change your world view.


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## crono782 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thank you for sharing that. A most fascinating read, if only a summarization of a larger whole. Especially in light of some of my own experiences in the past that I've never *fully* endeavored to explore/explain.


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## El Dud3rino (Jun 25, 2013)

Brother Hndrx.

For me, personally point 9 is where it hits home.

Like all things to work in this world, you or some one must believe. The power of believe is stronger then any thing. Borderlines with manifestation. 





Brother Joel
EA Mason
Epes Randolph Lodge #32


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## widows son (Jun 25, 2013)

" I'm not talking about the kind of people you see on TV, but people that don't even really like to talk about it openly. It is VERY difficult to get people to talk about the real deal. "

• could you provide some references for further inquiry?

"21. As to the origin of demons, Christian theology generally points to the idea that they are non-human intelligent beings (ie., angels) that served God at one time but have rebelled and now war against both God and mankind. I believe this to be the case and my belief is supported by the fact that demons have a very strong aversion to the name of Christ, invocation of the authority of God, etc."

• What about other cultures that have different origins to evil spirits, such as Hindu, Maya, and Native Americans, and older cultures such as pre-Islamic Persia?


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## Godfrey Daniel (Jun 25, 2013)

"_daemon_"


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## Hndrx (Jun 25, 2013)

widows son said:


> " I'm not talking about the kind of people you see on TV, but people that don't even really like to talk about it openly. It is VERY difficult to get people to talk about the real deal. "
> 
> • could you provide some references for further inquiry?
> 
> ...



The problem is that many people that have experienced the real deal both as victims and as those that fought demons are not quick to talk about it.  Most of them are very quiet on the subject and don't publicly advertise the fact.

Regarding other cultures, most of them aren't able to deal with evil spirits effectively in most cases.  The methods they just don't work as well and they have a much more limited success rate.  Given the fact that demons don't like being in a spotlight, it isn't  too unusual that they sometimes disappear when any form of attention is  put on them.  In some parts of the world, Catholic and Orthodox priests are sometimes called on by families to secretly do exorcisms on Buddhists and Muslims.

In the first example of an encounter with the demon (the mind reading girl), she was being "treated" by African folk religion and also voodoo for her possession.  It did nothing to help, as a matter of fact, she got MUCH MUCH worse and it spread to include her sister.  The demon involved feared anything Christian and would become very fearful in the presence of anyone Christian or Christian objects.  Unfortunately, the family fled the area and I don't know their ultimate fate.


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## dfreybur (Jun 25, 2013)

widows son said:


> What about other cultures that have different origins to evil spirits, such as Hindu, Maya, and Native Americans, and older cultures such as pre-Islamic Persia?



Nearly every religion discusses spirits so you'll be able to find references.  Whether you'll be able to find discussion of possession I can't say.  When I read the Koran it mentions the Djinn.  I am currently reading a collection of legends about Buddha and there is plenty of discussion of spirits being in his presence.


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## BryanMaloney (Jun 25, 2013)

Asura/Ahura vs. Deva/Daeva, which is godly, which is demonic? Depends on whether you're Indian or Persian.


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## Michael Neumann (Jul 29, 2013)

Hndrx said:


> I'll try to summarize my thoughts on the subject:
> 
> 
> 14.  Exorcism isn't an instant cure.  It is an ongoing battle with attacks and counter attacks until they move on to easier targets.  In the second situation that I alluded to, we performed multiple house blessings (ie., minor exorcisms) before it had a major effect.




Not necessarily spirits, just al little extra mental activity we cannot accept/explain.


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## Rauchbier1987 (Jul 29, 2013)

I agree with you that our minds are capable than most of us realize but I have also been a victim of a demonic infestation and performed an exorcism on a Ouija board. The bible sights demons and their abilities and so cannot be ignored

Brother Morris


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## Silje-Madeleine (Jul 29, 2013)

All signs lead to this*

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## barryguitar (Jul 29, 2013)

Interesting read. Can we give some Kudos to the author of "Paradise Lost" for corrupting our understanding of the source of "evil"? There is nothing created that did not come from the creator. Why then must we ascribe our understanding of the existence of evil to the divine? It seems so apparent to me that evil exists no-where in the universe except the hearts of men and that is is purely the result of our separation from the divine and is a necessary result brought about by the freedom given to us by God to reject him. Are we really still saying "The Devil made me do it"?


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## Rauchbier1987 (Jul 29, 2013)

Not necessarily. I don't agree with people blaming their shortcomings and evil hearts on the demonic but every religion recognizes a negative entity to the positive creator. Now whether the cause of this is negative is merely the allowance of the divine to permit testing as is evident in the book of job or due to an independent will of the negative is based on your own understanding of what is written and what you chose to believe. However, the irrefutable fact stands that if you are part of any of the belief systems associated with masonry its somewhere in the book you read and worship out of. 

Brother Morris


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## Silje-Madeleine (Jul 29, 2013)

Heaven

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## BryanMaloney (Jul 30, 2013)

barryguitar said:


> Interesting read. Can we give some Kudos to the author of "Paradise Lost" for corrupting our understanding of the source of "evil"? There is nothing created that did not come from the creator. Why then must we ascribe our understanding of the existence of evil to the divine? It seems so apparent to me that evil exists no-where in the universe except the hearts of men and that is is purely the result of our separation from the divine and is a necessary result brought about by the freedom given to us by God to reject him. Are we really still saying "The Devil made me do it"?



The Jewish answer to this, continued by some Christian traditions, is that "evil" is how we perceive the absence of God, just like "darkness" is how we perceive the absence of light. Neither has an actual existence, it is our name for an absence. As God has made us, for whatever reason, a favored part of creation, we have been given the privilege to exclude Him from our thoughts, and by so doing, do evil. Note that mindfulness of God is not the same thing as piety. The two only coincidentally meet.


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## barryguitar (Jul 30, 2013)

That's awesome, spot- on, Brian.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Jul 30, 2013)

barryguitar said:


> Are we really still saying "The Devil made me do it"?



Oh, _hell _yes. Without naming names, there are a lot of religions that teach this, and still more whose members come to believe it regardless of the teachings of that religion. The ability to blame something supernatural for one's own failings and/or poor choices is very convenient.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Jul 30, 2013)

Rauchbier1987 said:


> Not necessarily. I don't agree with people  blaming their shortcomings and evil hearts on the demonic but *every  religion recognizes a negative entity to the positive creator*.


That is incorrect. 


> However, the irrefutable  fact stands that if you are part of any of the belief systems associated  with masonry its somewhere in the book you read and worship out of.


Really? What "belief systems" would those be, Brother?


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## Rauchbier1987 (Aug 17, 2013)

I have yet to find a religion that isn't based solely in theology that does not have a negative entity in it somewhere. Though it is quite possible I am wrong but what religion in Freemasonry does not brother? I am always interested in learning more, can you please elaborate on your reply?

Brother Morris


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## BryanMaloney (Aug 17, 2013)

There would be forms of Mayahana Buddhism that do not posit a "negative entity" on any cosmic scale. There might be individual "demons", but even they can become enlightened and achieve Nirvana.


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## Rauchbier1987 (Aug 17, 2013)

Interesting. I just learned something brother. I didn't know Buddhists could be masons and I was not aware that their evil spirits could become positive. I had thought that Buddhism didn't hold a theology and was solely based in philosophy. But do they not still have negative spirits to the positive ones? I'm not sure exactly how that works

Brother Morris


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## Rauchbier1987 (Aug 17, 2013)

Or do the negative spirits not hold any level of influence over men?

Brother Morris


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## dfreybur (Aug 17, 2013)

Rauchbier1987 said:


> I didn't know Buddhists could be masons



Some sects of Buddhism deal with deity some don't and none of them have rules against dealing with deity.  As a result it is up to the individual Buddhist to address the topic or not.  Many do and as a result there are practicing Buddhists who are Masons.  The brother who raised me is a practicing Buddhist who in order to petition did decide to address the topic.  When at social events well away from the building it is fascinating to discuss with him how he came to our doors.



> and I was not aware that their evil spirits could become positive.



A matter of theology.  Any being can turn to the positive.  Should not demons in other faiths be in theory able to do so?  Other than suggesting "Can versus actually do" I have no answer for anyone but myself and insufficient study of various religions on the topic.



> I had thought that Buddhism didn't hold a theology and was solely based in philosophy.



If your definition for the word theology does not include what is done by the third largest faith on the planet (or are they currently fourth after Hindu) I suggest it's time for an expansion event inside your own mind.  Break out of that definition.



> But do they not still have negative spirits to the positive ones? I'm not sure exactly how that works



I don't know enough about the religion to address that.  The Dhama Phada, the recorded sayings of the Buddha, does not address the topic.  I recently finished listening to "Buddhist Writings" which are public domain translations of the legendary material that evolved around the Buddha.  Those stories do address deities and spirits.  The ones mentioned in those tales are positive ones.


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## dfreybur (Aug 17, 2013)

Rauchbier1987 said:


> ... but what religion in Freemasonry does not brother? ...



The topic does make wording difficult, doesn't it?  As Masonry isn't a religion a literal view of "religion in Freemasonry" could lead to an answer of "There is no such thing".

If I get your point correctly you mean the set of religions that have practicing members who are Masons.  That would be every one either of us have heard of and many more.  "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." is the best I can answer.  Seek for some faith that fits your criteria and you'll find one.  As usual in Masonry the result of such a search is an educational experience that "Makes good men better".


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## Rauchbier1987 (Aug 17, 2013)

All well understood though my original question of a religion that can join Freemasonry devoid of negative spirits goes unanswered with the question of if the negative spirits in Buddhism can influence men. I do love learning about the many types of theology.

Brother Morris


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## WEST TX MASON (Aug 17, 2013)

Going back to the original question... I'm not saying I have all the knowledge but I go back to the bible and try to find my answers through my lord...

And in the synagogue there was a man who had the spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice, â€œHa! What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you areâ€”the Holy One of God.â€ But Jesus rebuked him, saying, â€œBe silent and come out of him!â€ And when the demon had thrown him down in their midst, he came out of him, having done him no harm. And they were all amazed and said to one another, â€œWhat is this word? For with authority and power he commands the unclean spirits, and they come out!â€ Luke 4:33-36


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## Rauchbier1987 (Aug 17, 2013)

Amen amen.

Brother Morris


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Aug 22, 2013)

Rauchbier1987 said:


> I have yet to find a religion that isn't based solely in theology that does not have a negative entity in it somewhere. Though it is quite possible I am wrong but what religion in Freemasonry does not brother? I am always interested in learning more, can you please elaborate on your reply?



First of all, let's be clear; there is no "religion in Freemasonry". To be sure, our order is made up entirely of "religious" men, at least insofar as every last one has professed a belief in some deity, but to proceed on the assumption that all of them follow a religion that promulgates this or that specific belief (the existence of "negative spirits", for example) is a mistake. 

That's right, not all religions hold that there's some malign entity that makes us do "evil" things. If you haven't found any yet, you have not looked hard enough.

You seem to be focused on (biased by) the prevalence of the Abrahamic religions, or the "religions of the book". That's not uncommon and entirely understandable for most of us born and raised in the western world. More broadly, there are many "revealed" religions that have one or more volumes of sacred text that codify "the word of G*d". There are many others that have no such thing, at least not in printed and bound form. The man who made me a Mason walked a spiritual path that traditionally passes it's formal spiritual lessons mouth-to-ear, though the really important "lessons" on many such paths (Native American, BTW) are experiential in nature. In other words, no book. Try being a little less literal when you consider what our "Volume of Sacred Law" actually means.


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## Rauchbier1987 (Aug 30, 2013)

Brother Morris


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## Rauchbier1987 (Aug 30, 2013)

You seem to misunderstand me. I was unaware that there were native American religions that had only one god and no negative beings, thus making them eligible for Freemasonry. What are the names of these religions so I can expand my understanding? I do love studying different theologies

Brother Morris


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Sep 3, 2013)

Rauchbier1987 said:


> You seem to misunderstand me. I was unaware that there were native American religions that had only one god and no negative beings, thus making them eligible for Freemasonry. What are the names of these religions so I can expand my understanding? I do love studying different theologies
> 
> Brother Morris



You're probably leaning on an interpretation of "Landmark 19" that references  "one true and everlasting God", or similar verbiage. Such a tortured interpretation is, I submit, out of place in our order. Indeed, every version of "The Ancient Landmarks" that Google seems to index just says "God". But let's set aside the numerical distinctions for the moment. "God" or "one true and everlasting God" doesn't really matter if the candidate has the faith to believe that there is a power far greater than anything in this world and is willing to say so. To assert that such a supernatural entity must be interpreted as a single conscious being is, IMHO, more than a little presumptuous. But that's just me. Others may choose to believe just that. The point is that we should not be reading anything into the candidate's answer to the question. It is for him and him alone to answer. Nor should we be interpreting the "validity" of that answer based on what we think we know about his religion. 

As to religions that don't "believe in" the existence of a malevolent spirit, I can think of no handier example than Wicca. Though the deities recognized in modern Wicca's various "traditions" vary widely, it is generally true that they hold no belief in a malevolent or evil spirit, considering that "good" or "evil" are matters of choice. Interestingly, this lines up nicely with Judaism's concept of "yetzer hara" or "evil inclination". 

As for Native American beliefs, my knowledge and understanding is limited, but (to generalize a great deal) the closest one might come is Coyote, or "The Trickster". The nature and motivation of Coyote varies dramatically from people to people, but almost always the purpose of his deceptions are to convey a lesson, as distinct from temping a soul to do "evil" for evil's sake.


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## LittleHunter (Sep 3, 2013)

If Rauchbier1987 or anyone else has questions about the Lakota Sioux religion (a Native American religion) message me privately. It is a beautiful religion that helped me find God... But this isn't the forum for a discussion of theology.


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## crono782 (Sep 3, 2013)

LittleHunter said:


> If Rauchbier1987 or anyone else has questions about the Lakota Sioux religion (a Native American religion) message me privately. It is a beautiful religion that helped me find God... But this isn't the forum for a discussion of theology.



Holding discussion privately is completely your choice. Just wanted to point out that the sub forum Philosophy, Religion, and Spirituality (which you are currently in) is entirely okay with discussion of theological topics and is not barred in this sub forum. Cheers.


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## dfreybur (Sep 3, 2013)

Rauchbier1987 said:


> I was unaware that there were native American religions that had only one god



The idea of the Great Spirit clearly counts for a yes answer to the question about belief in a supreme being on the petition.



> and no negative beings



Earlier there was discussion of beings in Buddhism being in a current status that can be changed.  Here Bro JohnnyFlotsam mentioned Wicca.  There are lots of Wiccan brothers.  He also explained coyote which is as much as I've ever learned on the topic in native faiths.  I suggest that if you study The Analects of Confucius or the Tao Te Ching of Lao Tsu you will find no negative beings.  Whether wider readings of those two ancient faiths will find negative beings I'm not sure but no negative beings appear in the Dhama Padha of Buddha yet they do appear in wider readings of Buddhism.  Not sure where the borders are.



> thus making them eligible for Freemasonry



That's a different topic.  Monotheism was dropped as a requirement in the early 1700s.  Unless your petition was as explicit as cited by Bro JohnnyFlotsam you may believe your jurisdiction has the requirement but it does not.  I've read a lot of petitions and so far only New York has that wording among the ones I've read.  Likely a small number of other states.

The way your post is worded is ambiguous.  It could be read to say you think religions with negative beings don't qualify.  I'm sure you did not mean that.  Negative beings appear in the Old Testament (Mosaic and later books so Torah and Tenakh), New Testament and Koran at least in the JCI family plus in the sacred writings of many other faiths that have Masons among their members.


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## Rauchbier1987 (Sep 3, 2013)

Precisely. I was intending it to be read as a whole stating that I was unaware of any religions devoid of negative beings but having a monotheistic basis that were accepted into the fraternity. Does Freemasonry accept the religions based solely in philosophy now as well?

Brother Morris


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## LittleHunter (Sep 3, 2013)

What does "devoid of negative beings" mean?


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## BryanMaloney (Sep 4, 2013)

Rauchbier1987 said:


> Precisely. I was intending it to be read as a whole stating that I was unaware of any religions devoid of negative beings but having a monotheistic basis that were accepted into the fraternity. Does Freemasonry accept the religions based solely in philosophy now as well?



Freemasonry accepts no religion at all. Freemasonry requires assent to the existence of a being that could be described as "The Supreme Architect". That's it. There are no other "religious" criteria.


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## Rauchbier1987 (Sep 4, 2013)

Interesting. I took it to mean monotheistic. I'm learning new things each day. And devoid of negative beings means having no trace of negative beings brother littlehunter

Brother Morris


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Sep 4, 2013)

Rauchbier1987 said:


> Precisely. I was intending it to be read as a whole stating that I was unaware of any religions devoid of negative beings but having a monotheistic basis that were accepted into the fraternity. Does Freemasonry accept the religions based solely in philosophy now as well?


Freemasonry does not "accept" or "reject" _any _religions, Brother. It makes no such distinctions in that regard. None. It would be _entirely _inappropriate for you, me, an investigation committee, etc. to do so. 
A candidate, on the other hand, must do so in order to answer the question regarding belief in the GAOTU. Again, that distinction is his _and his alone_ to make.


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## Rauchbier1987 (Sep 4, 2013)

I see. I am learning a lot. 

Brother Morris


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## dfreybur (Sep 4, 2013)

Rauchbier1987 said:


> I was intending it to be read as a whole stating that I was unaware of any religions devoid of negative beings but having a monotheistic basis that were accepted into the fraternity.



Like Neo-Platonism I suppose.  I have not yet knowingly met a Neo-Platonic brother.  For all I know I've attended lodge with a few without knowing.

There were plenty of practicing Deists who were lodge members during the US Revolution.  A close friend "Doesn't believe in churches" - I think I spent a year of lunches discussing the issue with him before he got to seeing a supreme being as distinct from human organizations.  I'd describe him as a deist.  Not sure if he technically fits for the capital letter version.



> Does Freemasonry accept the religions based solely in philosophy now as well?



As others have pointed out that's not the way it works.  We accept individuals who answer "Yes" to the question "Do you believe in the existence of a supreme being?" and we don't get into details with them.  Religions as such are irrelevant to that question other than to the degree an individual brother decides to tie the two together.  That is to say if you, for yourself, tie the two topics together that's for yourself not for any other brother.

One example is Buddhist Masons.  The brother who raised me is a practicing Buddhist.  The Dhama Padha, words of Buddha, don't mention deity.  Some sects address deity others don't.  He decided to address the issue of deity and accept existence, so he petitioned.  With him "Do you believe in the existence of a supreme being?" centers around the word existence and his path to a "Yes".  Discussing religious issues with him away from our buildings can be fascinating.

There are plenty of polytheist Masons of various religions.  The requirement for monotheism was dropped int he early 1700s.  For me actually practicing freedom of religion versus just lip service was a make-or-break issue before I petitioned.  I selected Shinto as one of the larger population world religions that is explicitly polytheist.  I confirmed that Masonry is popular in Japan and that there are plenty of practicing Shinto among our brothers.  Once I'd done that check I submitted my petition.  "Seek and ye shall find" I've since encountered numerous polytheist brothers.


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## Rauchbier1987 (Sep 4, 2013)

That is very interesting. Thank you for all the information brother

Brother Morris


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## cyd (Sep 10, 2013)

I feel that it's Mental illness as well as to some degree hypnotic suggestion on emotional suggestible. Certain people on t.v use to do that  one . I am some what educated on hypnotism and I can see the method of  induction . That is just my opinion .


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## ericmps (Dec 11, 2013)

Matthew 8:31 So the demons besought him, saying, If you cast us out, allow us to go away into the herd of swine. 

Although I admit that I have not researched this enough I still find it interesting that such a thing is in the Bible.


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## Bro Darren (Dec 11, 2013)

In the days of the Bible, knowledge of mental illness was not really known so I'm sure that plenty of common illnesses were blamed on demons. In saying that, the Spiritual realm is very real and I'm sure that it can manifest its self into peoples lives and thoughts!

How many countless women were burnt alive as "witches" back in the days for playing/mixing herbs/spices together, where today they are called pharmacists.


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