# Church Objection?



## nfasson (Aug 21, 2013)

Has anyone had their church make an issue of your being a Freemason? I've been reading through some Presbyterian Church doctrine and     it's saying that Freemasonry is not only a religion, but incompatible with the Christian faith! How is there a conflict? Masonry is supposed to be areligious and apolitical, but they cite "evidence" that Freemasons consider the rituals and oaths religious in nature, thereby conflicting with Christianity.

This is disturbing to me, not only because I'm interested in pursuing Freemasonry but I also don't want to create friction with my family and the church! I find it hard to believe that Freemasons consider Masonry a religion in and of itself. And here I thought anti-masonry only dwelled in the more radical elements of the Christian faith.

Has anyone had to defend their membership with their church? Success/failure? What did you end up doing? Any info/guidance would be greatly appreciated!




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## rpbrown (Aug 21, 2013)

Not my church but one of the associate pastors read the internet and swore we were devil worshipers and started a big tado about it. Funny thing, the other associate pastor as well as the senior pastors son are both members of my lodge.


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## jwhoff (Aug 21, 2013)

That ought to stir up the locals!


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## FlBrother324 (Aug 21, 2013)

nfasson said:


> Has anyone had their church make an issue of your being a Freemason? I've been reading through some Presbyterian Church doctrine and     it's saying that Freemasonry is not only a religion, but incompatible with the Christian faith! How is there a conflict? Masonry is supposed to be areligious and apolitical, but they cite "evidence" that Freemasons consider the rituals and oaths religious in nature, thereby conflicting with Christianity.
> 
> This is disturbing to me, not only because I'm interested in pursuing Freemasonry but I also don't want to create friction with my family and the church! I find it hard to believe that Freemasons consider Masonry a religion in and of itself. And here I thought anti-masonry only dwelled in the more radical elements of the Christian faith.
> 
> ...



I am Catholic, if you want to see some more comments about the Fraternity  and churches/religion go to the thread about the Catholic church excommunicates members you will see how some of us have decided to handle the situation.

Yours, in His service.

Do what you think is best, but follow your heart.


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## DBeard (Aug 21, 2013)

I told a friend I was a mason and he said: So, you hate Catholics?


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## Brother JC (Aug 21, 2013)

DBeard said:


> I told a friend I was a mason and he said: So, you hate Catholics?


That's a fairly common misconception. Fortunately, my Mother Lodge has a number of Catholic Brethren as very active members.


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## DBeard (Aug 21, 2013)

Why?


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## Brother JC (Aug 21, 2013)

They help dispel the myths. They are active members of the community, not known for hating anything, much less members of their own faith.


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## DBeard (Aug 21, 2013)

I totally agree


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## Blake Bowden (Aug 22, 2013)

*Re: Church Obje*

When I joined the Craft, most of the elders/Deacons were Masons..lol


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Aug 22, 2013)

I was forced from my church for being a Mason.  Told I had to choose.  I don't do well with ultimatums.  I learned over time, the church does have much to fear from Freemasonry.  The Craft creates thinkers, free men of free mind and conscious.  These men in turn will question rigorism, fundamentalism and dogmatic thinking.  Very dangerous to a church.  Now, please splash with water, drink a cup of wine and do everything we say and get salvation.  You are not smart enough to read the book in front of you and understand it.  Only the man in the white robe can do this for you........


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## Brother_Steve (Aug 23, 2013)

I would not tell my church that I'm a mason.

Also, we're supposed to hold God above all so does that mean we yield to freemasonry if our church tells us to or do we then seek god in our own way, leaving the church and remaining a freemason?


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## rpbrown (Aug 23, 2013)

Brother_Steve said:


> I would not tell my church that I'm a mason.
> 
> Also, we're supposed to hold God above all so does that mean we yield to freemasonry if our church tells us to or do we then seek god in our own way, leaving the church and remaining a freemason?




There is a difference in the church telling you you can't be a mason and God telling you that you can't. The church is run by men. These men have their own opinions, right or wrong but thats what makes them men. Its just like I left a church because they would not let me legally carry my firearm inside. Its their decision and that was mine.
The fact is, I follow Gods word. If a man has a problem with that, then it's his problem, not mine.


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## brothermongelli (Aug 23, 2013)

Brethren, 

Submitted for your consideration - a link to my article on Catholicism and our Craft.  I cannot count how many times I've witnessed one Brother give erroneous information to another concerning the position of the Catholic Church on Freemasonry. In some cases, the misinformation was given with the knowledge that it was such - that doesn't sit well with me.  

At any rate, here it is:

http://www.anthonymongelli.com/upload/Catholicics%20and%20The%20Craft.pdf


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## Jericho2013 (Aug 23, 2013)

There are several fellow masons at my baptist church and the church doesn't have a problem with us at all.  My in-laws are Pentecostal and they do believe that masonry is evil.  However when I visit there they treat me like I belong and are very courteous.  My in-laws just don't ever bring it up and we are very close.  Now trying to get my mother-in-law to come to a masonic fundraiser or open meeting is another story lol.


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## Brian Chaytor (Aug 24, 2013)

Equality, Fraternity and Liberty integrate the immovable foundation which Freemasonry rests on. Freemasons are free thinkers by nature. To live and let live is a pretty good recipe for a harmonious and happy life. No dogma, no imposition from any man made organization should cause us to waver in our resolve to do "what it's right because it's the right thing to do." If certain groups choose to be intolerant, this is their prerogative. Remember that as Masons we are to be tolerant even of intolerance

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## Rufus (Aug 25, 2013)

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> I was forced from my church for being a Mason.  Told I had to choose.  I don't do well with ultimatums.  I learned over time, the church does have much to fear from Freemasonry.  The Craft creates thinkers, free men of free mind and conscious.  These men in turn will question rigorism, fundamentalism and dogmatic thinking.  Very dangerous to a church.  Now, please splash with water, drink a cup of wine and do everything we say and get salvation.  You are not smart enough to read the book in front of you and understand it.  Only the man in the white robe can do this for you........



I'm very sorry for the grammatical errors.


This is a very sad situation.
But, the Church is not God.
The Church is an organization created by people . People who profess their faith. 
God has a place there, where there is access to it in your heart, in your soul.
He's in your heart. 
And no one has the right to be a mediator between you and God.
The Church does not agree with the this arguments. 

I'm not against the church, I am against blind  fanaticism and dogmatism.


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## rmcgehee (Aug 25, 2013)

We had an EA whose family told him that Freemasons slayed children on our alters during our Degrees.
I told him that I had been a Mason over 30 years and never seen that.


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## Rufus (Aug 25, 2013)

rmcgehee said:


> We had an EA whose family told him that Freemasons slayed children on our alters during our Degrees.
> I told him that I had been a Mason over 30 years and never seen that.


Very often, people's fears about Freemasonry are based on not knowing or incorrect information.
Often exaggerations.
  Leo Taxil, 140 years ago, wrote his anti-Masonic pamphlets, but people believe today, that he wrote the truth.
It's funny and sad, but people believe and want to believe in nonsense.


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## Brother JC (Aug 25, 2013)

Rufus said:


> Leo Taxil, 140 years ago, wrote his anti-Masonic pamphlets, but people believe today, that he wrote the truth.


He even stood up in front of a crowd of paying customers and admitted it was *all a fraud* and he had ripped them off, yet people still quote him today.


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## Rufus (Aug 25, 2013)

trysquare said:


> He even stood up in front of a crowd of paying customers and admitted it was *all a fraud* and he had ripped them off, yet people still quote him today.



Yes, it was April 19 1897,  after the failed anti-Masonic Congress in Tronto, which was convened at the initiative of Leo Taxil.


I'm very sorry for the grammatical errors.


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## coachn (Aug 25, 2013)

nfasson said:


> Has anyone had their church make an issue of your being a Freemason? I've been reading through some Presbyterian Church doctrine and     it's saying that Freemasonry is not only a religion, but incompatible with the Christian faith! How is there a conflict? Masonry is supposed to be areligious and apolitical, but they cite "evidence" that Freemasons consider the rituals and oaths religious in nature, thereby conflicting with Christianity.
> 
> This is disturbing to me, not only because I'm interested in pursuing Freemasonry but I also don't want to create friction with my family and the church! I find it hard to believe that Freemasons consider Masonry a religion in and of itself. And here I thought anti-masonry only dwelled in the more radical elements of the Christian faith.
> 
> ...


Any man well-connected with his Spirit soon finds that those he surrounds himself with must be of like mind and spirit or his own spiritual growth shall be sabotaged but his own efforts or lack of them.  Your disturbance should be telling you something very important about your situation and those you hang with.


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## Txmason (Aug 25, 2013)

I had a baptist preacher come to me before I petitioned and tried to persuade me not to join the masons. It was because I put on the prayer card that I would be accepted.  


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## river rat (Aug 25, 2013)

I am x member of the Lutheran Church and several years ago my Pastor tried to convince me to leave Masonry. I chalked this up to ignorance on the Pastor's part.

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## SteveR (Aug 25, 2013)

Let no human or religion steal the Divine gift you've been given. Not one person can develop your consciousness for you, but you. Religions are a wonderful tool for successful spirituality, if used properly, but most miss the mark and let it become "the knowledge", instead of the tool to develop true knowledge. 

I grew up in a very dominating, dogmatic religion, and only since becoming a Mason and developing the ability to discard many things I was taught, and relearn how to learn, have I been able to grow as the GAOTU wishes all His creation to grow. 

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## MarkR (Aug 26, 2013)

rmcgehee said:


> We had an EA whose family told him that Freemasons slayed children on our alters during our Degrees.


Isn't it amazing that people believe crap like that?  Don't they think that if there had ever been a single confirmed incident remotely like that, it would have made international news?


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## BryanMaloney (Aug 26, 2013)

MarkR said:


> Isn't it amazing that people believe crap like that?  Don't they think that if there had ever been a single confirmed incident remotely like that, it would have made international news?



People still believe the Blood Libel about Jews. A well-exposed fraud like _The Protocols of the Elders of Zion_ still sells in the USA, too.


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## Bro_Vick (Aug 29, 2013)

nfasson said:


> Has anyone had their church make an issue of your being a Freemason? I've been reading through some Presbyterian Church doctrine and     it's saying that Freemasonry is not only a religion, but incompatible with the Christian faith! How is there a conflict? Masonry is supposed to be areligious and apolitical, but they cite "evidence" that Freemasons consider the rituals and oaths religious in nature, thereby conflicting with Christianity.
> 
> This is disturbing to me, not only because I'm interested in pursuing Freemasonry but I also don't want to create friction with my family and the church! I find it hard to believe that Freemasons consider Masonry a religion in and of itself. And here I thought anti-masonry only dwelled in the more radical elements of the Christian faith.
> 
> ...



It isn't common, it is usually individual church leaders more than actual denominations.  I have read about Yoga being satanic in nature, and other such statements.  Generally it is because church leaders are jealous of your participation, or worried that you are becoming too heavily involved in something that would move you away from Christ.

You have to do glory in Him, and you cannot fail.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## Brother JC (Aug 29, 2013)

Bro_Vick said:


> I have read about Yoga being satanic in nature, and other such statements.


I saw that on a list that included "Vegetarianism."


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## Blake Bowden (Aug 30, 2013)

I've established a closer relationship to God being a Freemason than I ever did sitting in Church.


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## Rufus (Aug 30, 2013)

Good day, bro.

I think that before the advent of Freemasonry, there was a confrontation the two poles, religion and atheism.  With the advent of Freemasonry has changed the balance of power. In these circumstances, Freemasonry acts as a third power. 

But as always happens, the third is not popular. 
But Public opinion is always trend tends to polarity, that was one of the reasons for the  increasing level hostility to the Masons, of the society in general.

Freemasonry was is a "scapegoat" for non-religious societies, because of their personal religious esotericism, and as a "scapegoat" for religious societies  - because of for alleged infidelity God.
Therefore conflicts with the church and the negative attitude society  will exist for a long time.


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## Bro_Vick (Aug 30, 2013)

trysquare said:


> I saw that on a list that included "Vegetarianism."



That was a joke, the also had AmWay listed as a satanic symbol.  Yoga on the other hand has been actually criticized as putting your soul at risk.


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## dfreybur (Aug 30, 2013)

Bro_Vick said:


> I have read about Yoga being satanic in nature, and other such statements.



My last class before I earned my Bachelors was a course in meditation.  One of the students was an extremely devout Catholic who refused to meditate because she thought it was communicating with spirits of the dead.  I have no idea why she signed up for the course.  Had I been the professor I might have tried to teach her what it really is and if she didn't get it fail her.  It was her choice to sign up for the class after all.  Clearly I would make a terrible professor.  To get a passing grade you have to get the material correct, at least some of it.

I pointed out that one form of Christian meditation was memorizing chapters of scripture.  I don't know if that's what she did and I don't remember if I ever learned what grade she got.

Meditation isn't the same as Yoga.  Yoga isn't the same as practicing Hindu.  There can be but does not need to be overlap among those.  Practicing Hindu is not Satanic in nature no matter how much fundies rant about against religions.


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## BryanMaloney (Aug 31, 2013)

Rufus said:


> Good day, bro.
> 
> I think that before the advent of Freemasonry, there was a confrontation the two poles, religion and atheism.  With the advent of Freemasonry has changed the balance of power. In these circumstances, Freemasonry acts as a third power.



That completely contradicts history. Atheism as a large-scale movement did not exist until the early-to-middle 19th century. Before that time, while there might be individual atheists, it was just a personal idiosyncrasy. The two poles were classical conservativism (inherited hierarchical authority, religion/government intertwined, "rights" were collectivized--due to being within a specific class) and classical liberalism (authority is to be derived from ability, religion is a matter of individual conscience, "rights" are inherent and equal to all individuals). Freemasonry represented classical liberalism, thus, it aroused the hostility of classical conservativism. To this day, it is hated by the heirs of classical conservativism and the new poles (such as atheist/leftist collectivism and fascist/rightist collectivism) that have also arisen. Note that these new poles are still forms of collectivism, like classical conservativism.

To forestall nonsensical bluster, many of today's modern "conservatives" are classical liberals (more or less) and many of today's modern liberals are leftist collectivists (more or less). However, some people get superstitiously hung up on the use of names, as if merely calling something by a name made it into that name.

Originally, "liberalism" came from the same root as "liberty", and was about individual freedom. "Conservativism" wished to "conserve" hierarchicial, theocratic/semi-theocratic society from the "erosive effects" of this liberalism. Thus, Freemasonry is, at its heart, a liberal movement in the oldest sense of the term, while anti-masonry is usually allied to conservative movements, in the oldest sense of the term, or their collectivist philosophical heirs.


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## BryanMaloney (Aug 31, 2013)

I should point out that, in some countries, classical liberalism has never been permitted to exist as a large movement. Such countries include Russia, China, any of the Arab countries, many of the other traditionally "Muslim" countries, and most of south-east Asia. In those countries, and others, classical liberalism has always been on the fringe and often identified with "foreign" influences. Even worse, it was often identified with "colonial" powers who presented themselves as having classical liberal virtues but acting in far more classical conservative ways when dealing with the "natives". Thus, in these countries, Freemasonry often has a bad reputation by association.


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## rmcnear (Sep 1, 2013)

A PGM of MN is a Methodist Minister and the Episcopal Bishop was Grand Chaplin when I was still in DeMolay - he confirmed me and congratulated me on being JC at the time. I know that some Lutheran synods (Missouri) don't think we're good enough to be members.…organized religions have problems with each other as well.


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## jwhoff (Sep 1, 2013)

It would appear to me that "classic liberalism" is never looked upon fondly by conservatives anywhere.  But that it is often misrepresented as touting the virtues of those undesirable totalitarian nations mentioned above.  How could anyone be more conservative than an close-minded government run by powerful oligarchies such as Russia, Iran, or North Korea?  I am always humored by what we, in this country, label those who disagree with us.


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## safehouse (Sep 2, 2013)

.


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## Dis1Recording (Sep 7, 2013)

The first thing my Pastor did was congratulate me!!! Cause not only is my Pastor a Freemason. But almost ALL the Deacon in my church are Freemasons. Beside some of the sisters in my church being North Star.. 


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## mrplod (Jul 26, 2016)

I'm joining the Presbyterian church pca and I cannot become a full member unless I am not a Freemason . I have been a master mason, joining in England then in 2001 joining a lodge in Alabama and being secretary for 12 years. But I have gone suspended this June to enable me to join the church. I can't believe the views of this church on freemasonry and await my joining classes to question their thoughts on our craft.


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## Ripcord22A (Jul 26, 2016)

mrplod said:


> I'm joining the Presbyterian church pca and I cannot become a full member unless I am not a Freemason . I have been a master mason, joining in England then in 2001 joining a lodge in Alabama and being secretary for 12 years. But I have gone suspended this June to enable me to join the church. I can't believe the views of this church on freemasonry and await my joining classes to question their thoughts on our craft.


If u want to be a member of the church why not just demit and not go SNPD

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## dfreybur (Jul 27, 2016)

mrplod said:


> I can't believe the views of this church on freemasonry and await my joining classes to question their thoughts on our craft.



To me the church on the next block does not have that problem and my boots are made for walking.  You have no reason to make the same choice I would.  This is a topic on which we all make our own decisions for our own reasons.



mrplod said:


> But I have gone suspended this June to enable me to join the church.



Why not stay current on your dues and demit?  Having an open demit you would always be welcome back should you change churches.


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## DwayneM (Aug 20, 2016)

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> I was forced from my church for being a Mason.  Told I had to choose.  I don't do well with ultimatums.  I learned over time, the church does have much to fear from Freemasonry.  The Craft creates thinkers, free men of free mind and conscious.  These men in turn will question rigorism, fundamentalism and dogmatic thinking.  Very dangerous to a church.  Now, please splash with water, drink a cup of wine and do everything we say and get salvation.  You are not smart enough to read the book in front of you and understand it.  Only the man in the white robe can do this for you........





Frater Cliff Porter said:


> I was forced from my church for being a Mason.  Told I had to choose.  I don't do well with ultimatums.  I learned over time, the church does have much to fear from Freemasonry.  The Craft creates thinkers, free men of free mind and conscious.  These men in turn will question rigorism, fundamentalism and dogmatic thinking.  Very dangerous to a church.  Now, please splash with water, drink a cup of wine and do everything we say and get salvation.  You are not smart enough to read the book in front of you and understand it.  Only the man in the white robe can do this for you........



Up front fact: I am not a Mason.
I know the Lodge (and by extension this forum) is absolutely not the place to discuss religion. I must say, respectfully, that the end of your post reveals some possible misconceptions. If I may say so, the Catholic church (with the "man in the white hat") does not say you are not smart enough to read the book in front of you- they encourage reading and meditating on scripture. I submit to you that if you question members of 5 different congregations on specific scriptural interpretations and how that interpretation affects how you should treat your fellow man, you will get 5 different responses- some alike in some nuances, some completely opposed to each other.  By which interpretation should we be guided? The church built on the rock of Peter provides a magisterial forum to settle such matters. I will not elaborate on how the dismissive tone of "splash some water and drink some wine" etc. offends those of your brethren who hold the sacraments of the church in high esteem (to say the least).
My late father was an active Mason and a devout Catholic, who has said many times that being either makes him a better one of the other.


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 18, 2016)

Blake Bowden said:


> I've established a closer relationship to God being a Freemason than I ever did sitting in Church.


I feel the same


dfreybur said:


> To me the church on the next block does not have that problem and my boots are made for walking. You have no reason to make the same choice I would. This is a topic on which we all make our own decisio
> Exactly the way that I feel about it.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 18, 2016)

mrplod said:


> I'm joining the Presbyterian church pca and I cannot become a full member unless I am not a Freemason . I have been a master mason, joining in England then in 2001 joining a lodge in Alabama and being secretary for 12 years. But I have gone suspended this June to enable me to join the church. I can't believe the views of this church on freemasonry and await my joining classes to question their thoughts on our craft.


I'm a Free Methodist and my pastor has no problem with me being a member of The Craft. However, if a pastor would tell me that it was either Masonry or the church my reply would be, "No problem. I'll just find another church where I am welcome".


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## Kenneth NC Mason (Sep 22, 2016)

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ( Mormons ) I've seen zero conflict between being a mason and being a member of the church. In fact I feel like me being a Mason helped me understand the LDS church better on some things before I recently as of July converted. At the church I go to with my Mom at home when I'm not at college, the Pastor there doesn't like masonry but told me it's my choice and that he still thinks I'm a Christian . I definitely respect that. It's a non denominational church that is a part of a movement called Calvary Chapel  


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 23, 2016)

Kenneth NC Mason said:


> At the church I go to with my Mom at home when I'm not at college, the Pastor there doesn't like masonry but told me it's my choice and that he still thinks I'm a Christian . I definitely respect that. It's a non denominational church that is a part of a movement called Calvary Chapel


Great! As it should be.


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## Ketia (Nov 14, 2016)

Upfront- not a mason. Just joined this group because of this thread. I have been reading about Masonry for awhile now. Very interested in joining. Have many good friends and relatives who are Masons. Here is my hang up- My denomination rejects it. Now, I don't agree with 100% of everything my denomination, The Assemblies of God, but do agree with about 99.9%. With that being said, I am a deacon/board member. I am pretty positive I can't be on the board serving the church and masonry. I don't blame my church, would never leave the church. I respect the rules that govern them and understand why most are in place. Hence why I haven't petitioned yet. My freinds have stated that they would be more than happy to sign my petition and help raise me up. They find it silly that I won't do it till my term is up and our reelection comes up. I am still praying if I will run next time, further pushing out my petition. I do bid your prayers on that. 

With all that being said, are there any other Pentecostal or specifically Assemblies of God Mason's?  

I know some of you will think it's crazy to stick to a church, but I believe the church is here for a reason and we are to be obedient to the rules. And when in doubt ask questions. Which I what I am doing here.

Thanks in advance for any response or input.


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## jermy Bell (Nov 14, 2016)

We open with prayer,  take our obligation on the holy bible, and close with prayer. You can not be a mason if you don't believe in god. So I don't see what any church has any objection too. Depends if you are a man, or just a sheep following.  That's just my opinion.


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## DwayneM (Nov 14, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> In my view too many churches claim to be the one true church.  I struggle to believe that human organizations can be that good.
> 
> Freemasonry is somewhat similar.  Traditionally, regular Grand Lodges claim sole coverage of their territory.




If I may offer a line of reasoning on "one true church. ..."  it would seem to me that the church Christ said he would establish on Peter, that the gates of hell would not endure against, that has existed since that time, could make the only valid claim there. 

Just offered in brotherly charity for your consideration.


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## DwayneM (Nov 14, 2016)

My father wore his masonic ring while serving as a Catholic lector, commentator, and extraordinary minister of holy communion. If anyone had a complaint, the pastor could always pull from the files the letter signed by the archbishop saying there is no conflict with his Freemasonry, given to my father after a personal interview. To quote Dad,  "Being a good Catholic makes me a better mason. Being a Mason makes me a better Catholic."


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## Glen Cook (Nov 14, 2016)

DwayneM said:


> If I may offer a line of reasoning on "one true church. ..."  it would seem to me that the church Christ said he would establish on Peter, that the gates of hell would not endure against, that has existed since that time, could make the only valid claim there.
> 
> Just offered in brotherly charity for your consideration.


Not everyone interprets the scripture in the same manner.  See, e.g., https://bible.org/question/what-did-jesus-mean-when-he-said-“upon-rock-i-will-build-my-church”


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## Glen Cook (Nov 14, 2016)

Ketia said:


> Upfront- not a mason. Just joined this group because of this thread. I have been reading about Masonry for awhile now. Very interested in joining. Have many good friends and relatives who are Masons. Here is my hang up- My denomination rejects it. Now, I don't agree with 100% of everything my denomination, The Assemblies of God, but do agree with about 99.9%. With that being said, I am a deacon/board member. I am pretty positive I can't be on the board serving the church and masonry. I don't blame my church, would never leave the church. I respect the rules that govern them and understand why most are in place. Hence why I haven't petitioned yet. My freinds have stated that they would be more than happy to sign my petition and help raise me up. They find it silly that I won't do it till my term is up and our reelection comes up. I am still praying if I will run next time, further pushing out my petition. I do bid your prayers on that.
> 
> With all that being said, are there any other Pentecostal or specifically Assemblies of God Mason's?
> 
> ...


Good for you. In many rituals, it is specifically explained Freemasonry does not conflict with your duty to G-d. 
I would have a chat though with the pastor on your congregation's view of the fraternity.


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## DwayneM (Nov 15, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Not everyone interprets the scripture in the same manner.  See, e.g., https://bible.org/question/what-did-jesus-mean-when-he-said-“upon-rock-i-will-build-my-church”



Interesting post,about the linguistics. Suppose Christ is saying , "You're the rock-man, Petros" and saying generally, "on the rock of this statement I will build My church...." Isn't there still only one church that can historically show its descendance from that time?

Out of respect for this thread and forum, I'll leave my line of questioning at that.  Fair journey, my friend.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 15, 2016)

DwayneM said:


> Interesting post,about the linguistics. Suppose Christ is saying , "You're the rock-man, Petros" and saying generally, "on the rock of this statement I will build My church...." Isn't there still only one church that can historically show its descendance from that time?
> 
> Out of respect for this thread and forum, I'll leave my line of questioning at that.  Fair journey, my friend.


Depends on who you ask. Old Catholic, Anglican... will likely have a divergent opinion (I'm LDS, so I ain't got a dog in that fight).


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## DwayneM (Nov 15, 2016)

Rufus said:


> I'm very sorry for the grammatical errors.
> 
> 
> This is a very sad situation.
> ...



I too am against blind fanaticism - or even blind tolerance - and dogmatism. But there is one mediator God determined to connect man and God, and He, not men, founded His church. 
You do feel God in your heart.  He has also gifted men with reason, by which He is also more well known and experienced.  He established His church to guard against error, and to encourage the use of reason to draw closer to Him.


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## dfreybur (Nov 15, 2016)

Ketia said:


> I know some of you will think it's crazy to stick to a church, but I believe the church is here for a reason and we are to be obedient to the rules. And when in doubt ask questions. Which I what I am doing here.



Each of us get to chose for ourselves how much authority we give to clergy in our own lives.  Each of us get to chose for ourselves which clergy are in our lives.  Masonry teaches us to be better members of our chosen churches.

I don't think it's crazy to stick to a church.  It's a choice to be made in sincere reflection.  You and I get to pick differently and that's not crazy.  I would walk out and let my minister know why on the way out.  Vote with my presence and my donations.  But I repeat that you and I get to pick differently.

If your church objects I would rather you work within your church to reverse that than have you make an end run around that objection.  Given that you want to stick to your church.

I hope I made sense.


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## Bloke (Nov 15, 2016)

Ketia said:


> Upfront- not a mason. Just joined this group because of this thread. I have been reading about Masonry for awhile now. Very interested in joining. Have many good friends and relatives who are Masons. Here is my hang up- My denomination rejects it. Now, I don't agree with 100% of everything my denomination, The Assemblies of God, but do agree with about 99.9%. With that being said, I am a deacon/board member. I am pretty positive I can't be on the board serving the church and masonry. I don't blame my church, would never leave the church. I respect the rules that govern them and understand why most are in place. Hence why I haven't petitioned yet. My freinds have stated that they would be more than happy to sign my petition and help raise me up. They find it silly that I won't do it till my term is up and our reelection comes up. I am still praying if I will run next time, further pushing out my petition. I do bid your prayers on that.
> 
> With all that being said, are there any other Pentecostal or specifically Assemblies of God Mason's?
> 
> ...



In Freemasonry, religion is left to each man's heart, conscience and faith, Freemasonry must not create a wedge between those things, for many of us, Freemasonry deepens and clarifies them;  I think Bro Glen's suggestion is good, but once you have that talk, you've disclosed your thoughts and intent. I was lucky in that my conscience and my faith did not require such a conversation with the clergy of my church before joining, but if yours does, better not to become a Freemason than estrange yourself from your beliefs.


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## freemasonpha (Oct 12, 2017)

It is my understanding that Catholics and Protestants believe the philosophical foundation and methodology of Freemasonry is ecumenist -  believing all religions lead to salvation/heaven/God. For Christians the exclusive claims of the Gospel and the exclusivity of Christ makes this branch theory, all religions are branches of legitimate faith, contrary to the Christianity. Also, some religions make truth claims that are contrary to the truth claims of other religions...and since both can't be right, one must be wrong. Sure, there is an element of mystery to all religious experience, but Christianity claims to hold to objective truth, not subjective or relative truth.

I could be wrong and often am.


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## Bloke (Oct 12, 2017)

freemasonpha said:


> It is my understanding that Catholics and Protestants believe the philosophical foundation and methodology of Freemasonry is ecumenist ......



I would disagree and so would those churches that see Freemasonry as incompatiable with their dogma.  Some research will set you straight,  but at the same time, I would say a Fraternity is not a Religion, and hence their objections are something I reject 



freemasonpha said:


> .....Also, some religions make truth claims that are contrary to the truth claims of other religions...and since both can't be right, one must be wrong....



Or they could all be wrong. I think God is a mystery, hence, despite some Church's claim to "divine inspiration" where God explains himself to mortals, he/she/it will always remain a mystery and is beyond human understanding...


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## freemasonpha (Oct 13, 2017)

Thank you Brother for you comments. I would point out that you missed the meat of my post when you left out, "- believing all religions lead to salvation/heaven/God. For Christians the exclusive claims of the Gospel and the exclusivity of Christ makes this branch theory, all religions are branches of legitimate faith, contrary to the Christianity."

To flesh this out a little more, I didn't mean ecumentist in a Christian sense, rather, I was referring to the idea that all religions are equal expressions of the mysterious. There is no hierarchy of beliefs since belief is subjective.



Bloke said:


> I would disagree and so would those churches that see Freemasonry as incompatiable with their dogma.



Of course but what are reasons for your disagreement Brother?



> Some research will set you straight,  but at the same time



So mote it be! lol

I am on a never ending journeying, a lifetime of learning if you will and having worked in a library for just shy of 25 years offering me the opportunity to read and research. I hope to learn a lot visiting this forum Br. Bloke and picking your brain from time to time.



> I would say a Fraternity is not a Religion,



Yes, I would agree with you in most cases, however, some Fraternities have an underlying philosophy that crosses the line into religion or the realm of faith.



> and hence their objections are something I reject



Freemasons have a way of thinking about God and man (GAOTU, Fatherhood of God, brotherhood of man, making good men better, etc.) which is essentially a "theology." Without getting into too much detail the Rituals we use offer us instruction on how we should think about God and man, they are theological to a certain extent and since theology means "the study of God and man" I would surmise you reject the definition of terms and not really the objection offered by Christian institutions themselves.



> Or they could all be wrong.



Absolutely. 



> I think God is a mystery, hence, despite some Church's claim to "divine inspiration" where God explains himself to mortals, he/she/it will always remain a mystery and is beyond human understanding...



Yes Sir, this is a common belief. How is the unknowable known if it can't be known? It's a self defeating position since all Masons must believe in God - all Masons are presupposing that God can be known.

If God is beyond human understanding than one person can't speak to another's faith (including their belief in _divine inspiration_) without creating an exception for themselves that allows them to judge universally. Like the old analogy of the elephant and the blind men. One man grabs the tusk, another the tail and all claim to have found elephant. You say, "that's not the elephant" assuming you have the best vantage point. It would be the same when it comes to God, to claim "he/she/it will always remain a mystery" assumes you are the exception and have the best vantage point. And that's not really an argument against religion but a personal, subjective opinion when it is claimed God "is beyond human understanding..." 

I mean this post to be understood in the best possible light, as two brothers talking about deep subjects, and with respect.

Thank you.


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## Bloke (Oct 13, 2017)

freemasonpha said:


> ......I mean this post to be understood in the best possible light, as two brothers talking about deep subjects, and with respect.
> 
> Thank you.



So mote it be ! 




freemasonpha said:


> Thank you Brother for you comments. I would point out that you missed the meat of my post when you left out, "- believing all religions lead to salvation/heaven/God. For Christians the exclusive claims of the Gospel and the exclusivity of Christ makes this branch theory, all religions are branches of legitimate faith, contrary to the Christianity."
> 
> To flesh this out a little more, I didn't mean ecumentist in a Christian sense, rather, I was referring to the idea that all religions are equal expressions of the mysterious. There is no hierarchy of beliefs since belief is subjective.
> 
> Of course but what are reasons for your disagreement Brother?....


Thanks. The reason for my disagreement is some Churchs will refuse a funeral for a Freemason. That might not be the case in your parts, but it is so in Melbourne Australia.



freemasonpha said:


> ....Yes, I would agree with you in most cases, however, some Fraternities have an underlying philosophy that crosses the line into religion or the realm of faith....



Religion and faith are not one in the same, they often go hand in hand, but not always.

Do you think Freemasonry crosses the line into religion ? Not so here, but in other places, Freemasonry and, especially Christianity are linked; Swedish Rite being the best example, but the strong relationship between some Christian Churches and Freemasonry, espcially in America, is strong. For instance, we would never have a "Bible Bearer" in our Craft Lodges - because the Bible is a text to a specific Religion. Here, we open the Volume of the Sacred Law, which for most of our lodges, is a Bible, but not not always. My mother lodge has three VSLs open, a lodge I was a founding member has five. Such an idea apparently seems strange in some lodges in the Southern states of the USA... or am I wrong ? The issue with taking a Lodge into a religious sphere is, what religion ? That's left to each own man.... especially important when it's common to have three Faiths represented in our lodges; Christian, Islam and Judaism.  I would assume you are likewise religiously diverse in your lodges ?



freemasonpha said:


> ....Freemasons have a way of thinking about God and man (GAOTU, Fatherhood of God, brotherhood of man, making good men better, etc.) which is essentially a "theology." Without getting into too much detail the Rituals we use offer us instruction on how we should think about God and man, they are theological to a certain extent and since theology means "the study of God and man" I would surmise you reject the definition of terms and not really the objection offered by Christian institutions themselves.
> .



I never describe Freemasonry as a "theology" - however I always often describe it as a philosophical system. I think out approach to the GAOTU is philosophical and not theological..  I think if you do the latter, you're sort of missing the point ? Particularly because Freemasonry is a Fraternity and not a Religion. I understand Craft Freemasonry looks religious to come, and indeed members have been known to embrace it as such, but, again, I reject Freemasonry when presented as a religion..

Oh, and "Fatherhood of God, brotherhood of man" does not appear in our ritual...


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## freemasonpha (Oct 13, 2017)

Thanks brothers. I will think about what you wrote.


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## dfreybur (Oct 15, 2017)

freemasonpha said:


> It is my understanding that Catholics and Protestants believe the philosophical foundation and methodology of Freemasonry is ecumenist -  believing all religions lead to salvation/heaven/God. For Christians the exclusive claims of the Gospel and the exclusivity of Christ makes this branch theory, all religions are branches of legitimate faith, contrary to the Christianity. Also, some religions make truth claims that are contrary to the truth claims of other religions...and since both can't be right, one must be wrong. Sure, there is an element of mystery to all religious experience, but Christianity claims to hold to objective truth, not subjective or relative truth.
> 
> I could be wrong and often am.



That is normally phrased as Masonry taking a religious stance.  We don't.  Thus the rest of the claims based on that are to be rejected as being based on a false premise.  This rapidly leads down a hole and is why we avoid religious discussion in our gatherings.

Different Brothers make different religious choices.  We let them because we're not in the business of religion or religious choices other than establishing that a candidate isn't an atheist.  That's all there is too it.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 15, 2017)

A few days ago I was talking to the Master of a lodge that I frequent regularly. The Master is also an associate pastor at a church. I told him that my pastor had no problem with me being a Freemason but that if he departed and the new pastor gave me a problem about it I would simply find another church where I was welcome. The Master stated that he would do the same.


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## Bloke (Oct 16, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> That is normally phrased as Masonry taking a religious stance.  We don't.  Thus the rest of the claims based on that are to be rejected as being based on a false premise.  This rapidly leads down a hole and is why we avoid religious discussion in our gatherings.
> 
> Different Brothers make different religious choices.  We let them because we're not in the business of religion or religious choices other than establishing that a candidate isn't an atheist.  That's all there is too it.


Well said. Missed you in your absence !


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## CLewey44 (Oct 16, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> A few days ago I was talking to the Master of a lodge that I frequent regularly. The Master is also an associate pastor at a church. I told him that my pastor had no problem with me being a Freemason but that if he departed and the new pastor gave me a problem about it I would simply find another church where I was welcome. The Master stated that he would do the same.



That's very interesting. I've personally never met a Masonic clergyman. I'd love to pick their brain to get their perspective since they are religious experts but yet are accepting of other religious beliefs. Very cool.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 16, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> That's very interesting. I've personally never met a Masonic clergyman. I'd love to pick their brain to get their perspective since they are religious experts but yet are accepting of other religious beliefs. Very cool.


He's an extremely nice, humble and kind man. I admire him and am honored to be welcomed into his lodge.


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## freemasonpha (Oct 16, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> That is normally phrased as Masonry taking a religious stance.  We don't.  Thus the rest of the claims based on that are to be rejected as being based on a false premise.



I would say, based on my Ritual work so far and my reading that Masons declare and make truth claims about God and therefore take a theological stance. A religious stance. 

the·ol·o·gy
THēˈäləjē/
_noun_

the study of the nature of God and religious belief.
religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed.
plural noun: *theologies*


ex GAOTU - is a truth claim relating to God as creator, it's a belief

According  to The Ahiman Rezon (pub'd by GL of SC):

It was the single object of all the ancient rites and mysteries practiced in the very bosom of pagan darkness, . . . to teach the immortality of the soul. This is still the great design of the third degree of Masonry. This is the scope and aim of its ritual. . . By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin. . . it has been remarked by a learned writer of our Order, that the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation. [end quote]​
If the above is true we have a truth claim about the immortality of the soul, redemption, faith and salvation. 

I can understand why people would avoid the idea that Masons do have a _kind_ of theology but it still exists even if it's denied. 

Thank you
PS: I'm not sure how much I can reveal online from the ritual and writings of Freemasons so I'm limiting my responses until after MM.


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## freemasonpha (Oct 16, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> A few days ago I was talking to the Master of a lodge that I frequent regularly. The Master is also an associate pastor at a church. I told him that my pastor had no problem with me being a Freemason but that if he departed and the new pastor gave me a problem about it I would simply find another church where I was welcome. The Master stated that he would do the same.



In Lodge I'm always reminded that faith and family must always come before the Lodge. If the Lodge is causing conflict with my faith, wouldn't it be due to theological differences? If I was able to choose so quickly, just how important is my faith and the tenets of my faith? 

Thank you


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## freemasonpha (Oct 16, 2017)

Blake Bowden said:


> I've established a closer relationship to God being a Freemason than I ever did sitting in Church.





Warrior1256 said:


> I feel the same



Two brothers have stated how Freemasonry helped them become closer to God. 

If Freemasonry doesn't have a theological bent or theological religious element - how were they able to become closer to God through the Craft?

Thank you


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 16, 2017)

freemasonpha said:


> In Lodge I'm always reminded that faith and family must always come before the Lodge. If the Lodge is causing conflict with my faith, wouldn't it be due to theological differences?


The lodge causes no conflict in my faith. It may cause a conflict in some ministers' faith is what I am saying.


freemasonpha said:


> If Freemasonry doesn't have a theological bent or theological religious element - how were they able to become closer to God through the Craft?


It does have a theological bent as far as worshiping our Higher Power or Being.


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## Bloke (Oct 16, 2017)

freemasonpha said:


> In Lodge I'm always reminded that faith and family must always come before the Lodge. If the Lodge is causing conflict with my faith, wouldn't it be due to theological differences? If I was able to choose so quickly, just how important is my faith and the tenets of my faith?
> 
> Thank you



Not necessarily a conflict due to theological differences - if Church is 9 am Sunday, and Lodge Rehearsal is 9 am Sunday, I think you are being consider your Religion before the Craft.


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## Bloke (Oct 16, 2017)

freemasonpha said:


> Two brothers have stated how Freemasonry helped them become closer to God.
> 
> If Freemasonry doesn't have a theological bent or theological religious element - how were they able to become closer to God through the Craft?
> 
> Thank you


I would be cautious on answering for another brother, but I can say Freemasonry made me consider the Divine which brought me closer to God. If Freemasonry was a theology - then it has to be one of the thinnest around.... and don't confuse the reflective writings on a Brother on this topic, think of what's exactly in and implied by the Ritual. 



freemasonpha said:


> PS: I'm not sure how much I can reveal online from the ritual and writings of Freemasons so I'm limiting my responses until after MM.



So you're not yet a MM ? I would say you're only looking a part of the picture then, but we should not dismiss you because  you are not a MM

I would assume you have been Initiated ?

As you "how much you can reveal" - each brother must stay within due bounds and follow his own conscious and his obligations - I post things here which other Freemasons don't always like - but I have 14 years of experience, am involved heavily in multiple lodges and am a Past Master x 3... and I would say have never once broken any of my obligations... but I'm probably in a better position, based on experience, to make a call on what to post and what not to post - so for you, I suggest caution. In fact I would say the same to all, including myself


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## freemasonpha (Oct 21, 2017)

Bloke said:


> So you're not yet a MM ? I would say you're only looking a part of the picture then, but we should not dismiss you because  you are not a MM



Not a MM yet and no date has been given. 



> I would assume you have been Initiated ?



I am a Fellow Craft. 



> As you "how much you can reveal" - each brother must stay within due bounds and follow his own conscious and his obligations - I post things here which other Freemasons don't always like - but I have 14 years of experience, am involved heavily in multiple lodges and am a Past Master x 3... and I would say have never once broken any of my obligations... but I'm probably in a better position, based on experience, to make a call on what to post and what not to post - so for you, I suggest caution. In fact I would say the same to all, including myself



Thank you for the advice. My Lodge is very tight lipped and will always defer to their example and exercise caution. 

Peace.


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## Bloke (Oct 21, 2017)

freemasonpha said:


> Not a MM yet and no date has been given.
> 
> I am a Fellow Craft.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 22, 2017)

Bloke said:


> if Church is 9 am Sunday, and Lodge Rehearsal is 9 am Sunday, I think you are being consider your Religion before the Craft.


Agreed!


freemasonpha said:


> I am a Fellow Craft.


Welcome.


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## Elexir (Oct 23, 2017)

freemasonpha said:


> Two brothers have stated how Freemasonry helped them become closer to God.
> 
> If Freemasonry doesn't have a theological bent or theological religious element - how were they able to become closer to God through the Craft?
> 
> Thank you



Becuse freemasonry as well as other fraternal orders have parts in the ritual system that will make you think of your relationship with your god, your place in the world etc.


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## freemasonpha (Oct 23, 2017)

Elexir said:


> Becuse freemasonry as well as other fraternal orders have parts in the ritual system that will make you think of your relationship with your god, your place in the world etc.



Yes, very true. Also, if you consider the words of the obligation in the context of the 17th century, you can see some allusion to the theological debates that took place in England and Scotland.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 23, 2017)

Elexir said:


> Becuse freemasonry as well as other fraternal orders have parts in the ritual system that will make you think of your relationship with your god, your place in the world etc.


Exactly!


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## Tyler Atkinson (Jun 24, 2018)

I recently went through a series of questioning wether or not christianity was compatible with freemasonry. Is freemasonry a religion? Absolutley not. Is it religous? Absolutley! I just wonder alot of times how some masons go around the fact of it being  religous. 

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## jermy Bell (Jun 24, 2018)

My dad asked the same thing. I told him that we open and close with prayer to god.we initiate a new brother with the holy bible. We are not a religion,  but you have to believe in a all divine being, and we do for our community, charity, and children.


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## Tyler Atkinson (Jun 24, 2018)

Exactly

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## hfmm97 (Jun 24, 2018)

Religious like the Scouts BSA (or whatever they’re calling it now)?


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## hfmm97 (Jun 24, 2018)

My troop met in a Presbyterian church and held daily nondenominational prayers at summer camp and at Boy Scout functions...fellow scouts was my troop unique in that? And I maintain that Boy Scouts was and is not a religion


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## hfmm97 (Jun 24, 2018)

Before I joined the lodge, I was a nominal Christian: due to the influence of the Freemasons, I was motivated to learn biblical Greek for NT and using the Torah, I developed a deep appreciation for the OT and tried learning a little Hebrew


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## hfmm97 (Jun 24, 2018)

And became a more deeply committed Christian


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 25, 2018)

Tyler Atkinson said:


> I recently went through a series of questioning wether or not christianity was compatible with freemasonry.


I can only speak for myself on this matter and I find nothing in Masonry that conflicts with my religious beliefs.


jermy Bell said:


> We are not a religion, but you have to believe in a all divine being, and we do for our community, charity, and children.


Exactly!


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## Rifleman1776 (Jun 25, 2018)

nfasson said:


> Has anyone had their church make an issue of your being a Freemason? I've been reading through some Presbyterian Church doctrine and     it's saying that Freemasonry is not only a religion, but incompatible with the Christian faith! How is there a conflict? Masonry is supposed to be areligious and apolitical, but they cite "evidence" that Freemasons consider the rituals and oaths religious in nature, thereby conflicting with Christianity.
> 
> This is disturbing to me, not only because I'm interested in pursuing Freemasonry but I also don't want to create friction with my family and the church! I find it hard to believe that Freemasons consider Masonry a religion in and of itself. And here I thought anti-masonry only dwelled in the more radical elements of the Christian faith.
> 
> ...


This is simply an issue that is not possible to debate. The anti-Mason churches (most of them) have fixed, if incorrect, notions about what Masonry is all about. I have had this discussion with several pastors and their minds are locked closed, there is no reasoning with them. My church is anti-Mason but accepts me as a member.


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 25, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> The anti-Mason churches (most of them) have fixed, if incorrect, notions about what Masonry is all about. I have had this discussion with several pastors and their minds are locked closed, there is no reasoning with them.


Yep!


Rifleman1776 said:


> My church is anti-Mason but accepts me as a member.


Same here. I attend a Free Methodist church which is historically anti-Mason by the present pastor has nothing against it.


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## Bloke (Jun 26, 2018)

Tyler Atkinson said:


> I recently went through a series of questioning wether or not christianity was compatible with freemasonry. Is freemasonry a religion? Absolutley not. Is it religous? Absolutley! I just wonder alot of times how some masons go around the fact of it being  religous.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using My Freemasonry mobile app


I think Freemasonry has no religions qualifications but rather a qualification of faith. Hence I would not say Freemasonry is religious but I would say it inclines a man to engage his own spiritual beliefs.  In that, it deepened my faith in my God.


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 26, 2018)

Bloke said:


> I think Freemasonry has no religions qualifications but rather a qualification of faith.


VERY well put Brother Bloke! I will remember this definition!


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