# Dues--What's too low and what's too high?



## cacarter (Feb 5, 2014)

If you look over at the "Kind of a Roll Call" thread it has talked a lot about dues and what's too high and what's too low. So let's have a discussion about it in a thread dedicated to the topic, instead of hijacking MasterBulldawg's questions. 

What do you consider too low?

What would be too high for you to pay?

What is your "Goldilocks" amount you'd pay for dues?

What should be done about members who are older and on a fixed budget, especially if they don't have an endowed membership?

What do endowed/life memberships cost in your state?


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## dfreybur (Feb 5, 2014)

cacarter said:


> What should be done about members who are older and on a fixed budget, especially if they don't have an endowed membership?



At my mother lodge some brothers have long since purchased a life/endowed membership while others request their dues be remitted.  There was a vote decades ago to not adjust the dues based on age and to not stop dues for 50 year members.  It was decided that reducing the dues by age before retirement has no effect on either dues paying or life membership purchases.  After retirement we get plenty of requests for remit where there's a check for partial dues in the request letter.

At my other lodges 50 year members no longer receive dues bills.  They have a sort of "Emeritus" status.



> What do endowed/life memberships cost in your state?



California 22 times dues (22*70=1540).

Illinois 19 times dues (19*50=950).  19 times dues (currently 19*90=1710).

Texas Fixed number 500 (which is the annual 75 times 6 and 2/3rds).  Buy one for yourself and posthumous ones for two deceased brothers based on the pattern elsewhere ...


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## Browncoat (Feb 5, 2014)

My take on dues:

This is a nonprofit organization. Dues should be a simple math equation of members divided by operating costs. A Lodge should have a pretty good idea of how much it takes to keep the lights on, and base dues on that. Dues = how much does it cost to affiliate or belong. All other expenses, anticipated or not, should be handled via fundraising events and donations.

I think $200/yr is the max I would pay for dues.


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## Blake Bowden (Feb 6, 2014)

cacarter said:


> If you look over at the "Kind of a Roll Call" thread it has talked a lot about dues and what's too high and what's too low. So let's have a discussion about it in a thread dedicated to the topic, instead of hijacking MasterBulldawg's questions.
> 
> What do you consider too low?
> 
> ...



1. $100+
2. It would depend on the experience. Don't expect me to pay out the nose if a group of unrehearsed Brethren show up, feed me a sandwich and put on a crappy degree. Why would a candidate invest their time and effort if the Lodge doesn't?
3. Right now? The minimum amount required by my Grand Lodge
4. Can't afford $50 a year? Drop em. $50 is less than a tank of gas. It's one meal with the family. It's less than a month of cable tv. How valuable is Masonry to you?


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## Zack (Feb 6, 2014)

What should dues be?
The total of what it costs to run your lodge for 1 year divided by the number of members.


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## Zack (Feb 6, 2014)

What should dues be?
The total of what it costs to run your lodge for 1 year divided by the number of members.


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## jvarnell (Feb 6, 2014)

We just raised our due's because we lost a renter that was renting the ground floor of our building.  I don't think it is to high because I have never been a part of an org that has so low amount I pay.  Church 10% and business orgs $2000 or $3000 a year.  Well I guess the TSRA and HOG group is about the same as my lodge.


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## dfreybur (Feb 6, 2014)

Zack said:


> What should dues be?
> The total of what it costs to run your lodge for 1 year divided by the number of members.



I take it there are other orders that do this.  Which ones?  Some Elks have told me this is why their dues change year to year.


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## cacarter (Feb 6, 2014)

Zack said:


> What should dues be?
> The total of what it costs to run your lodge for 1 year divided by the number of members.



How would non-payment of dues affect this plan?


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## Zack (Feb 6, 2014)

cacarter said:


> How would non-payment of dues affect this plan?



It would be year to year. Non-payment, dues would go up.  New member, dues go down.

Perpetual Membership, what I guess is referred to as Endowment in this thread,  has not been a good thing for lodges around me.  It does nothing for the cash flow as monthly expenses continue to go up.


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## cacarter (Feb 6, 2014)

I guess I mean for that year, if you're operating at a shortfall because dues haven't come in. I guess the savings the lodge has come into play at that point?


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## Browncoat (Feb 6, 2014)

cacarter said:


> How would non-payment of dues affect this plan?



Experience + record keeping. There should be a historical record that can predict with a certain degree of reliability how many NPD/demits (dues shortfalls) and new members (dues surplus) a Lodge will have.

Any shortfalls or expenses outside the budget should be covered via fundraising.


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## MasterBulldawg (Feb 6, 2014)

What do you consider too low? 75 or less

 What would be too high for you to pay? 400 or more

 What is your "Goldilocks" amount you'd pay for dues? 125-175

 What should be done about members who are older and on a fixed budget, especially if they don't have an endowed membership?
not sure would depend on how many the lodge has 

 What do endowed/life memberships cost in your state? 20 times your lodge dues


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## Companion Joe (Feb 6, 2014)

What do you consider too low? I don't have number. Whatever wouldn't allow your Lodge to pay its bills. Otherwise, is your Lodge trying to profit from its members.

What would be too high for you to pay? Again, I don't have a number because it's a hypothetical question. I won't be able to truly answer unless I was backed into that corner. I could say this or that, but until confronted with it and writing the check, there is just no way to answer. I don't put a number on Masonry.

What is your "Goldilocks" amount you'd pay for dues? Clearly I am thrifty, so the least I can get away with! I still long for the days of my youth when $10 meant a full tank of gas. I remember others as well as myself losing it when gas went to $1 a gallon. Using the analogy someone did earlier, $50 is a tank of gas. I remember being in a position when I filled up, thinking "That was just five hours of work I'll never get back." Thanks to loyalty discounts, I was able to fill up for $2.83 a gallon yesterday and was giddy. It pains me to fill up with gas. Heck, you can't even go to the grocery store or Walmart anymore without dropping $100.

What should be done about members who are older and on a fixed budget, especially if they don't have an endowed membership? It was said earlier to drop 'em. Wow. Just this year we had a PM demit because he has retired and can no longer afford to pay the dues. We had a PHP demit from the Chapter and Council because he can no longer afford the $34 combined dues. Both were valuable Masons, and now both are gone.

What do endowed/life memberships cost in your state? 20X dues+per capita tax. I am a life member of my Chapter and Council. I will do a Lodge life membership this year, which will cost $1300. I wish I was in a position financially 10 years ago to have done it.


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## DJGurkins (Feb 7, 2014)

I am going to get an Endowment for myself. That will allow me to pay my dues when I can thru the year( _because an endowment is intended to provide for the lodge after you are gone_)instead of by Dec. 31 . December is a difficult time traditionally, With Christmas and all. So what I plan on doing is Paying for an Endowment then Paying Our dues for a distressed Bro. and possibly mine as well later in the year. Our Dues are $130 so that don't leave me much wiggle room in my finances in one month so I have to plan accordingly.  As for how much is to much? I think this is completely dependent on the Lodge. For instance our building is paid for and not to old. Being that it was built in 1971 I think and made of brick, all of the interior is in real good shape this puts us in a much better place than an older lodge building in a big city with a historical background.


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## goomba (Feb 7, 2014)

What do you consider too low?  Less than $50.

What would be too high for you to pay?  More than $500.

What is your "Goldilocks" amount you'd pay for dues?  $250.

What should be done about members who are older and on a fixed budget, especially if they don't have an endowed membership?  The lodge takes care of them by grandfathering in their dues or waiving them.

What do endowed/life memberships cost in your state? 15 x annual dues or a min of $600 which ever is higher.


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## Teergear67 (Feb 7, 2014)

We voted to raise ours this year to $110. That's less than $10 a month.. I spend that going thru the drive thru for a burger meal. 


William R Teer Sr


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## rpbrown (Feb 7, 2014)

We just voted to raise ours to $100.00 and there was some resistance at that. We were at $80.00


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## bupton52 (Feb 7, 2014)

Do all of these amounts include GL tax?


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Feb 8, 2014)

I understand that what I am proposing would be a logistical nightmare.  It would never happen, I get that.  Still, just as an idea, it might be worth considering on a philosophical basis.

I suggest that a good idea for Lodge dues would be to base them on one days pay.  It seems to me that this would be fair to all masons.  Frankly, if this system were adopted my dues would increase.  I am OK with that.  

Also, it would provide some Masons with an (much needed) ethical dilemma since it would require voluntary self reporting, and would therefore test each mans honesty.  Even more radically, I think that no guidelines should be offered for how the value of one days pay should be calculated.  Let each man decide in his own heart if he will base his contribution to the Lodge on his gross pay or net pay.  Let each man decide if he will divide his pay by the number of days worked, or the number of days in a month.  Let each man look into his heart and see who he is.


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## chrmc (Feb 9, 2014)

I think most people will be willing to pay more and a higher amount if they felt they got a quality experience for the money. But that's another discussion.
I recently read a suggestion that one should pay 365 USD in membership. Because 1 dollar per day to be a mason shouldn't be high to anyone. Not sure if I agree, but I like the idea.


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## Brother JC (Feb 10, 2014)

chrmc said:


> I recently read a suggestion that one should pay 365 USD in membership. Because 1 dollar per day to be a mason shouldn't be high to anyone. Not sure if I agree, but I like the idea.


I know of at least one lodge that does that, and would guess there were more.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 10, 2014)

Looking at dues from before 1960, and applying appropriate conversions, the same level of cost would be around $100-$200 annually in present dollars. Of course, this was when GL's cut was proportionally smaller.


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## chrmc (Feb 10, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> Looking at dues from before 1960, and applying appropriate conversions, the same level of cost would be around $100-$200 annually in present dollars. Of course, this was when GL's cut was proportionally smaller.


And that is true, but the really interesting statistic is comparing to dues in the 1860's. Can't remember the specific calculations, but believe it would be several thousands a year.


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## dfreybur (Feb 10, 2014)

chrmc said:


> And that is true, but the really interesting statistic is comparing to dues in the 1860's. Can't remember the specific calculations, but believe it would be several thousands a year.



Gold was at $25 per ounce until 1933.  Silver was near $1 per ounce until 1963.  Neither metal has been close to either for a long time and their ratios never were as stable has the minted coin sizes suggest.

Annual dues before the civil war were around a half ounce of gold.  Converting gold to inflation is of dubious accuracy but it does match actual prices better than CPI claims.


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## K3vin (Feb 11, 2014)

I think my lodge dues are too low. Here's why:

My lodge has several fundraisers each year that some of the brethren enjoy working on. We use these monies to support our community support programs. (Reading incentive program for Elementary School children, and a scholarship for High Schoolers) 

However I feel that the time spent on fundraising could be better spent practicing our ritual, and educating newer brethren.

In my humble opinion the monies for the programs we support as a lodge should be built into the dues structure. If that is done then ALL of the members have participated, instead of the same small group of volunteers over and over again each year.

My lodge dues are $85 per year. That equates to 23 cents per day.

If I stop once a week for a coffee at Starbucks that costs about 93 cents per day, or $338 per year.

I would happily pay the price of a cup of coffee for better mentoring, Masonic education and fellowship. 


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## crono782 (Feb 11, 2014)

^ what he said. My dues are also $85/yr. I'd gladly pay more for better quality. If other can't afford it then I'd even chip in for a "scholarship fund type thing". 


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## dfreybur (Feb 11, 2014)

K3vin said:


> I think my lodge dues are too low. Here's why:
> 
> My lodge has several fundraisers each year that some of the brethren enjoy working on. We use these monies to support our community support programs. (Reading incentive program for Elementary School children, and a scholarship for High Schoolers)
> 
> However I feel that the time spent on fundraising could be better spent practicing our ritual, and educating newer brethren.



Counter-point view - The lodge that works together stays together.

I'm not afraid of being in a lodge that runs on shoe strings as long as there are activities on the calendar.


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