# Candidates/Brothers degrees



## Castro81 (Jan 30, 2019)

Hello my fellow brothers, i greet you all well. 

Ive been a brother since 2011. I will admit that the last 2-3 years i havent attended lodge regularly. And maybe that’s because ive felt... disenfranchised. I feel that my lodge is more about Quantity over Quality..My question to the brothers here is this...When candidates or brothers are being put through the degrees, does your lodge have them go through the  catechism individually or as a class? For instance, when it comes time to recite their obligation. Do the brothers recite the oblogation one by one or do they say it together, breaking up the obligation between them?


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## Thomas Stright (Jan 30, 2019)

Individually is the only way IMHO.

The obligation is a personal commitment.


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## Castro81 (Jan 30, 2019)

I totally agree. It feels that my lodge already has the masonic year planned out with the degrees. And its like no matter what the candidates/brothers will move forward whether they are proficient or not


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## Thomas Stright (Jan 30, 2019)

That would be a lodge that I would not be a part of.


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## Schuetz (Jan 30, 2019)

Thomas Stright said:


> That would be a lodge that I would not be a part of.


Indeed. I have poor memory but I studied and got it down (albeit short form).

Q. E. L. Schuetz, M.M.
Shekinah Lodge No. 241 • IL
Murphysboro Lodge No. 498 • IL


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## CLewey44 (Jan 30, 2019)

This was a recent topic actually.


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## Castro81 (Jan 30, 2019)

I dont want to be that brother, but i feel like this has to stop. I mean would i be in the wrong if i voted to not initiate/pass/raise a candidate/brother becuase, they either didnt say the obligation or broke it up amongst the other?


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## Bill Lins (Jan 30, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> I dont want to be that brother, but i feel like this has to stop. I mean would i be in the wrong if i voted to not initiate/pass/raise a candidate/brother becuase, they either didnt say the obligation or broke it up amongst the other?


I think it would be better if you discussed your concerns with the WM prior to the situation arising. There may be other Brethren in your Lodge who agree with you.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 30, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> I dont want to be that brother, but i feel like this has to stop. I mean would i be in the wrong if i voted to not initiate/pass/raise a candidate/brother becuase, they either didnt say the obligation or broke it up amongst the other?


 Could I clarify?  Are they not saying the obligation during the degree?  
Or are you referring to demonstrating proficiency?


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## CLewey44 (Jan 31, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> I dont want to be that brother, but i feel like this has to stop. I mean would i be in the wrong if i voted to not initiate/pass/raise a candidate/brother becuase, they either didnt say the obligation or broke it up amongst the other?


I'm unclear on your stance actually. The obligation is taken individually during the degree and the time I've seen brothers give it in tandem, they both had to do the ob portion on their own as to not "screw-over" the other one. Yes, you should be voting nay on someone if they don't demonstrate proficiency or for whatever reason you feel they shouldn't progress in Masonry.


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## Castro81 (Jan 31, 2019)

There have been instances where the brothers are either breaking up the obligation between them as they are being tested or one brother will do the whole obligation for the class during the degree.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 31, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> There have been instances where the brothers are either breaking up the obligation between them as they are being tested or one brother will do the whole obligation for the class during the degree.


May I ask the Grand Lodge?


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## Castro81 (Jan 31, 2019)

FLORIDA


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## Glen Cook (Jan 31, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> FLORIDA


Just to confirm, the Grand Lodge of Florida, GM Karroum?


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## BroCaution (Jan 31, 2019)

I do believe candidates should have to work a little harder to obtain the Sublime degree. Guard the West Gate.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 31, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> There have been instances where one brother will do the whole obligation for the class during the degree.


That never happens under GLoTX because we confer degrees on only one candidate at a time. Some of our Lodges will occasionally allow 2 or more brothers to take their proficiency exams together, splitting up the work between them, but it is not the norm here.


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## dfreybur (Feb 3, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> There have been instances where the brothers are either breaking up the obligation between them as they are being tested or one brother will do the whole obligation for the class during the degree.



That's not allowed in any jurisdiction I've experienced degrees or proficiencies in, so a longer list than where I've ever been a member.

Run this up the chain of command. It's definitely wrong. Either it's being taught and done wrong or somehow wrong ritual was voted in.


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## Castro81 (Feb 12, 2019)

Its difficult to run it up the “chain of command” when this has been an ongoing thing for many years. It almost feels that it would fall on deaf ears. A good majority of the brothers, i feel are happy, comfortable with the way things are. I guess what i was looking for, and still am, is a lodge that cares about esoteric and decorum. It feels like Masonry has become very lax, at least in my lodge.


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## Castro81 (Feb 12, 2019)

Another question i had was, when visitors arrive, are they allowed to enter the lodge room? And im not talking about during stated meetings, i mean before the worshpful calls to begin the meeting. Ive been to a lodge in South America, Colombia to be exact, and if you weren’t a brother you were not allowed to enter.


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## CLewey44 (Feb 12, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> Another question i had was, when visitors arrive, are they allowed to enter the lodge room? And im not talking about during stated meetings, i mean before the worshpful calls to begin the meeting. Ive been to a lodge in South America, Colombia to be exact, and if you weren’t a brother you were not allowed to enter.


I don't think you should be allowed but here it's typically ok. We tend to rent our facilities out or at the very least try to come off as welcoming to anyone, just come right in and we'll show you everything type of deal.


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## jermy Bell (Feb 12, 2019)

We will rent out our dining room and kitchen for functions, but no one is allowed upstairs into the lodge room. Unless it's a open house kind of thing.


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## Schuetz (Feb 12, 2019)

When I first went to my future Lodge, they showed me the Lodge room. When my wife joined me for the dinners, they gave her the tour, too.

Q. E. L. Schuetz, M.M.
Shekinah Lodge No. 241 • IL
Murphysboro Lodge No. 498 • IL


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## Brother JC (Feb 12, 2019)

My Mother Lodge loves showing off their rooms. And Grand Lodges like New York and Pennsylvania have tours showing all the elaborate and elegant lodge rooms.
It's just a room until the Three Great Lights are set.


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## Bloke (Feb 13, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> Another question i had was, when visitors arrive, are they allowed to enter the lodge room? And im not talking about during stated meetings, i mean before the worshpful calls to begin the meeting. Ive been to a lodge in South America, Colombia to be exact, and if you weren’t a brother you were not allowed to enter.


It will vary place to place.
We show non-Freemasons our lodge rooms - indeed I have facilitated over 1,000 people seeing ours.
As to Freemasons at a Lodge Meeting , our local custom is you should either officially enter as a visitor after the Lodge is opened or ask leave of the WM to enter before the Lodge opens and see that proportion of the work.


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## Castro81 (Feb 13, 2019)

Yea, same here. The lodge will rent out the kitchen, dining area from time to time. And my lodge will leave the doors open before a stated meeting for non-mason to enter. I just personally feel that the lodge room should stay closed to non-masons. It feels to me that American Masonry has become very lax. Aside from PHA, because ive heard they can be very strict, only thing is they tend to be overly Christiany, from what ive been told.


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## Mark Stockdale (Feb 18, 2019)

When visiting a lodge here, I can just turn up, but would expect to be tested when the WSW is asked if he is satisfied that all present are Freemasons.  If I turn up in the company of other brethren who are known in the lodge, then they may vouch for me, but otherwise I would be tested. Thankfully within my own province, I am known by quite a few brethren. If I intend to visit a new lodge I will make contact to let them know I intend to visit, especially outwith my province.

I have sent emails to the secretaries of the 2 lodges I would like to visit whilst in Washington DC in May, (I have permission from the grand Lodges concerned), but have yet to hear back from the secretaries.


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## CLewey44 (Feb 19, 2019)

Mark Stockdale said:


> When visiting a lodge here, I can just turn up, but would expect to be tested when the WSW is asked if he is satisfied that all present are Freemasons.  If I turn up in the company of other brethren who are known in the lodge, then they may vouch for me, but otherwise I would be tested. Thankfully within my own province, I am known by quite a few brethren. If I intend to visit a new lodge I will make contact to let them know I intend to visit, especially outwith my province.
> 
> I have sent emails to the secretaries of the 2 lodges I would like to visit whilst in Washington DC in May, (I have permission from the grand Lodges concerned), but have yet to hear back from the secretaries.


I like the WSW haha. I've never seen that used but is even more discreet.


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## Mark Stockdale (Feb 21, 2019)

CLewey44 said:


> I like the WSW haha. I've never seen that used but is even more discreet.



If there are enough visitors he is unsure of, he may very well delegate the job of testing to the Deacons, I've been given advanced warning that this may be what happens during our upcoming MMM degree.


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## Winter (Feb 21, 2019)

Sadly, my own jurisdiction has revived the practice of ODC.  And while I prefer not to discuss what goes on within a tyled lodge, I have seen the practice of either an exemplar taking the Ob. while the rest of the "class" remains in their seats or multiple candidates kneeling around the altar. Either way, these practices are reprehensible as they destroy the personal initiatic experience.  

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 21, 2019)

Winter said:


> Sadly, my own jurisdiction has revived the practice of ODC. And while I prefer not to discuss what goes on within a tyled lodge, I have seen the practice of either an exemplar taking the Ob. while the rest of the "class" remains in their seats or multiple candidates kneeling around the altar. Either way, these practices are reprehensible as they destroy the personal initiatic experience.


Agreed. I am certainly no fan of ODC.


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## Mark Stockdale (Feb 21, 2019)

Thankfully, the only degree I have been involved in with multiple candidates was my MMM degree, (our 4th Degree, as we do EA, FC then MM) thankfully I was the longest serving MM going though at the time, so I was the candidate that walked the degree whilst the other 3 sat at the side and watched.


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## jermy Bell (Feb 21, 2019)

I don't like multiple candidates for the 3rd. Your robbing them of the experience of it all.


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## Castro81 (Feb 26, 2019)

Its sad really and pisses me off. It feels like American Masonry has become more of a money thing. The more candidates that come in the more money the lodge gets. Quantity over Quality. Whats happen to freemasonry? From what ive gathered, from how it used to be in the past. Freemasonry went from the brothers asking you to join if you were deemed worthy, too anybody can join you just have to ask to be one.


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## jermy Bell (Feb 26, 2019)

Don't think it matters anyway. Most after completing the 3rd degree never comes back.


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## Castro81 (Feb 26, 2019)

Just sad...


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## Winter (Feb 26, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> Its sad really and pisses me off. It feels like American Masonry has become more of a money thing. The more candidates that come in the more money the lodge gets. Quantity over Quality. Whats happen to freemasonry?



Like most anything in Freemasonry the answer is more complicated than that.  The push for increased membership usually stems from a need to sustain buildings built when membership numbers were much higher and dues were a proportionally higher portion of the member's income.  Coupled with the erroneous belief that membership numbers today should try to return to the artificially high numbers after the world wars and you have a push to increase membership which usually translates to lower standards as a result.  So while it does usually come down to money, it is not the whole truth.



Castro81 said:


> From what ive gathered, from how it used to be in the past. Freemasonry went from the brothers asking you to join if you were deemed worthy, too anybody can join you just have to ask to be one.



I think you have it backwards.  One of the primary tenets of Freemasonry has always been that a petitioner should knock on the outer door with being asked.  It is mostly in recent times we see more active recruitment campaigns where it has become not only acceptable to ask men to join to put a petition in their hand and steer them towards the decision.


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## CLewey44 (Feb 26, 2019)

jermy Bell said:


> I don't like multiple candidates for the 3rd. Your robbing them of the experience of it all.


I don't like multiple candidates/brothers on any degree.


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## CLewey44 (Feb 27, 2019)

CLewey44 said:


> I don't like multiple candidates/brothers on any degree.


At the very least, it takes away chances to stay familiarized with the degrees for our officers so they can present proper ritual and at the most it takes away a great experience from the men receiving the degrees.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 27, 2019)

Warrior1256 said:


> Agreed. I am certainly no fan of ODC.


I think that I need to clarify this statement. I  do not agree with one day classes for the Blue Lodge because of the memorization required. However, I don't have a problem with the one or two day classes for the Scottish Rite or York Rite which are the norm in my area although I went through the York Rite over a period of months.


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## Bloke (Feb 27, 2019)

jermy Bell said:


> Don't think it matters anyway. Most after completing the 3rd degree never comes back.


Seriously ? I think one of my lodges has a retention problem. I tracked out EAs over 10 years, and our retention is just under 60% to the Craft...

If I was in a lodge which saw men get their MM and not come back - I would be delaying their MM degree, and tasking the whole lodge to welcome and mentor and _socialise _with every man who was not yet a MM...


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## Winter (Feb 27, 2019)

jermy Bell said:


> Don't think it matters anyway. Most after completing the 3rd degree never comes back.


If a majority do not return to the Lodge after being raised then there needs to be serious look at why.  You can't blame it all on the candidates. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## jermy Bell (Feb 27, 2019)

I usually ask the EA candidate why do you want to be a mason ?
Answers I get

1. My grandfather was a mason
2. My father was a mason
Somewhere in the family tree there was a mason.
Now, with those 2 said, the candidate never met that family member, or that family member never spoke of freemasonry. 

There have been a few who was quite honest on their answer. They either didn't know why or want to be a shriner. I have made the suggestion that we space the time in between degrees so they can make sure this is what they want to be apart of. But I've seen most hit all 3 degrees in less than a month and not come back. But they just had to join.


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## Winter (Feb 27, 2019)

This is the best argument for having a 6 month period where they get to know the Lodge and the members before being allowed to submit a petition.  But the majority of Lodges would never allow a potential revenue source to potentially walk away.  

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## Bloke (Feb 28, 2019)

jermy Bell said:


> I usually ask the EA candidate why do you want to be a mason ?
> Answers I get
> 
> 1. My grandfather was a mason
> ...


I have a lot of exposure to me wanting to become Freemasons. I would add three to the above

3. Brotherhood/fraternity/social
4 Charity -getting involved.
5 Self improvement.

For 1 & 2 - another very good question is "Why do you think he was a Mason" then "Why do you want to become a Freemason"...  I think continuing the family tradition is great, but they need to understand why that tradition is worthwhile, and I would suggest (or lead to) the idea that perhaps he GG or Father wanted to improve himself and be around good men..

I actually fine 4 the trickiest, but the simple thing is we are not a service club. The core ideas in Freemasonry are self improvement and treating others around you well, and it is in the second part we get involved in charity, but that's not just about cash, its about benevolence. That can be listening to someone who has a problem or just helping your elderly neighbour bring their shopping in or a stranger change a tyre or simply give them a smile. I often tell me interested in 4 - it depends on their lodge, some are heavily involved in it, some are not, and if they get into a lodge which is not, contact me and I will put them in touch with men working on projects..


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## dfreybur (Mar 3, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> Its sad really and pisses me off. It feels like American Masonry has become more of a money thing. The more candidates that come in the more money the lodge gets. Quantity over Quality. Whats happen to freemasonry? From what ive gathered, from how it used to be in the past. Freemasonry went from the brothers asking you to join if you were deemed worthy, too anybody can join you just have to ask to be one.



Math and geometry are a part of our teachings. Look up the Gaussian Normal Distribution. It's the bell shaped curve. It's about performance. It's about how no matter how you select a population there's an average with a bell shaped curve of performance around that average.

This math lesson teaches that the way to get quality is to get quantity. The way to increase quality is to be careful about the initial quality of the people.

We need money to operate. Relax about those who send us their annual checks. Then keep coming back to make *yourself* a part of the elite who are there.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 3, 2019)

dfreybur said:


> Relax about those who send us their annual checks. Then keep coming back to make *yourself* a part of the elite who are there.


I like this!


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## Castro81 (Mar 7, 2019)

Then keep coming back to make *yourself* a part of the elite who are there.[/QUOTE] 
it’s difficult to become one of the *elite* when i had no mentor assigned, no one to point me in the right direction. It was basically pay your degrees, pay your dues, want to join the shriners? Scottish rite? York rite? Etc. Etc. By luck the only brother that did bestow some knowledge was a brother that crossed over from PHA. and even then i was left on my own. Im aware that its my responsibility to seek further light, but its difficult when the majority of brothers at lodge seem to care more about the degree floor work, because we always have, no less than 10 candidates or brothers coming thorough or whats for dinner on stated meetings. Its a bit troubling when i have to search the internet for light when my own brothers at lodge either dont care or are in the dark aswell.


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## Bloke (Mar 7, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> Then keep coming back to make *yourself* a part of the elite who are there.


it’s difficult to become one of the *elite* when i had no mentor assigned, no one to point me in the right direction. It was basically pay your degrees, pay your dues, want to join the shriners? Scottish rite? York rite? Etc. Etc. By luck the only brother that did bestow some knowledge was a brother that crossed over from PHA. and even then i was left on my own. Im aware that its my responsibility to seek further light, but its difficult when the majority of brothers at lodge seem to care more about the degree floor work, because we always have, no less than 10 candidates or brothers coming thorough or whats for dinner on stated meetings. Its a bit troubling when i have to search the internet for light when my own brothers at lodge either dont care or are in the dark aswell.[/QUOTE]
Well, I learn things from Masons all the time.. but generally not in lodge. Lodge is often like watching a movie, it's the discuss it sparks which is where the interesting things happen. We do get to do that in lodge, but more often it happens outside...


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 8, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> it’s difficult to become one of the *elite* when i had no mentor assigned, no one to point me in the right direction.


I was lucky enough to have a mentor that not only taught me to memorize but explained the meaning of what I memorized.


Bloke said:


> Well, I learn things from Masons all the time.. but generally not in lodge.


I have actually learned much more about Masonry on this forum than I have in lodge.


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## Castro81 (Mar 8, 2019)

I have actually learned much more about Masonry on this forum than I have in lodge.[/QUOTE]

How does that make you feel, knowing that you had to come to the internet, when the brothers at lodge cant help you?


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## Keith C (Mar 8, 2019)

Castro81 said:


> How does that make you feel, knowing that you had to come to the internet, when the brothers at lodge cant help you?



You have to realize that many Brothers have no desire to gain esoteric knowledge.  You may be in a Lodge where very few have actually sought the Light that is available.  I have been very lucky to have met Brothers who are active in the PA Academy of Masonic Knowledge and urged me to go to one of their Symposia when I was an EA, which lit a spark.  Conversely, I witnessed a WM tell a potential Candidate that there really WAS NO esoteric knowledge, we just learned the degrees, met and socialized and did some charity work!   Check the resources available from your Grand Lodge, learn yourself and bring that knowledge back to your Lodge.  Take your thirst for knowledge and spread it to new Brothers by being a Mentor.

Complaining about how something is and not taking action to fix it, just perpetuates the problem.  Be an agent for change and make your Lodge better.  If you really are bringing in that many new Brothers, help them and soon the New Brothers, with higher knowledge and expectations will be a powerful voice for change.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 8, 2019)

Keith C said:


> You have to realize that many Brothers have no desire to gain esoteric knowledge.


Exactly.


Keith C said:


> Check the resources available from your Grand Lodge, learn yourself and bring that knowledge back to your Lodge. Take your thirst for knowledge and spread it to new Brothers by being a Mentor.


Very well said. I and others are trying to do this very thing for those that are interested.


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## Bloke (Mar 8, 2019)

Keith C said:


> ...Conversely, I witnessed a WM tell a potential Candidate that there really WAS NO esoteric knowledge, we just learned the degrees, met and socialized and did some charity work! ...



Well, that's simply wrong. "The Craft" itself is an esoteric phrase, unless you know it talks about Freemasonry, then you don't understand it.

_" esoteric = intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest."_

"The Craft" is but one very surface example of esoteric knowledge in Freemasonry.. "Tyler" is another - unless you know what he does.. but there are obviously a lot more and phrases and concepts which are much harder to penetrate.


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## dfreybur (Mar 10, 2019)

Keith C said:


> Complaining about how something is and not taking action to fix it, just perpetuates the problem.  Be an agent for change and make your Lodge better.



The mystical stuff is always individual. Any idea that you can learn in any organization of any sort is misguided.

I was a Mason for years before I first encountered another Brother interested in the mystical stuff. That's how it works. That's how it has always worked for anyone interested in the mystical stuff.


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## Elexir (Mar 10, 2019)

dfreybur said:


> The mystical stuff is always individual. Any idea that you can learn in any organization of any sort is misguided.
> 
> I was a Mason for years before I first encountered another Brother interested in the mystical stuff. That's how it works. That's how it has always worked for anyone interested in the mystical stuff.



Depends on where you come from.
Here the mystical stuff is pretty much acknowledged from the start by the material avaible.


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## Brother JC (Mar 10, 2019)

Bloke said:


> Well, that's simply wrong. "The Craft" itself is an esoteric phrase, unless you know it talks about Freemasonry, then you don't understand it.



Indeed! The first time most Initiates hear it is after they’ve knocked on the Inner Door.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 11, 2019)

Brother JC said:


> Indeed! The first time most Initiates hear it is after they’ve knocked on the Inner Door.


True!


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