# Crossing the Line



## drapetomaniac (Nov 18, 2009)

A couple of large Masonic forums seems to hedge this question. (And by seem, I mean ignore)

hypothetically speaking.....................
If a Black friend sits with you in lodge for 15 years and you cross a state line - they admit you but not your Brother and even state it's because he is Black.  What do you do and what do your expect you jurisdiction to react to the lack of recognition of a brother form your jurisdiction?

If he moves across the state line and can't get membership because of the same, what do you expect your jurisdiction to do?

I'm doing a little better than 3/5ths human, but 4/5ths of states seem to have issues we all seem to acknowledge out loud and have anecdotes about, etc, etc.  But it's ok, or we just have to wait..  Until I get old or die.
BTW, Thanks for acknowledging them out loud for those who do - that means progress.

My problem is, I have a son looking at me as a man.  Not sure I can say, hey I visited lodges in every state I've been in, but this one might not work out for me...


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## jonesvilletexas (Nov 18, 2009)

Do you mean Texas?


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## drapetomaniac (Nov 18, 2009)

I mean exiting Texas to another state.


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## owls84 (Nov 18, 2009)

If it were me I would not sit in that Lodge. By rejecting my friend you basically reject me. I would begin getting as much information as I could to see that charges could accurately be filed. As soon as my feet hit the ground in Texas I would be on the phone with the Grand Secretary to file charges. I would expect nothing to happen but just to file creates paperwork and work for the two jurisdictions. 

I think our problem is no charges are being filed. The problem with the other jurisdiction is you must be able to ace their proficiency exam and pass their trials to enter. We can't give them a reason to reject our entrance other than race.

There are proper protocol for filing charge in another jurisdiction and this should be followed.


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## rhitland (Nov 18, 2009)

Not sure your home jurisdiction can do anything in another GL they would have no real power about all they could probably do is ask that GM to do something. Your home GL if could make statments through their actions that we are not including in this bigitory attitude.
If your friend and our Brother has moved to another GL juris. and they will not let him in as a TX Mason I would expect my GM ar GL to assist me in finding out why? 
As far as your son I have a young one whom I dearly want to be a Masons and even in the current state we are in I would bring him in b/c I know just like me he would fight the good fight. This thing will get turned around, when no one really knows but I seriously doubt we wait till this racist attitude dies.


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## JTM (Nov 18, 2009)

every mason has a right to visit regular lodges.  you could get that entire grand lodge declared irregular if they refused admission.  

the best idea is to get your secretary to get grand secretary of texas to send grand secretary of the state your going to to send secretary of the lodge your going to certs of good standing before you go.  that covers all the bases.

show up, walk right in after showing them your license and dues card.  if they don't let the black guy in, then file charges.


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## Sirius (Nov 18, 2009)

If they dont let my friend in we leave and go to the Waffle House. Seriously, I'm waiting for all the old school bigots to die so Masonry can be reborn.


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## TCShelton (Nov 18, 2009)

Sirius said:


> If they dont let my friend in we leave and go to the Waffle House. Seriously, I'm waiting for all the old school bigots to die so Masonry can be reborn.



+1 to all thee above, except Waffle House, which is horrible.


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## Sirius (Nov 18, 2009)

TCShelton said:


> +1 to all thee above, except Waffle House, which is horrible.



MMMM double Texas cheese melt is delicious. But only at 4AM. I wonder why that is?


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## JEbeling (Nov 18, 2009)

Just to many "What if's" ...? kinda sounds like someone is try to make a point.. ! but can't come out and ask the question..? if we take care of TEXAS lodges and let other grand lodges take care of their problems.. ! think we will have enough to do..?


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## drapetomaniac (Nov 18, 2009)

Actually, as the brother who asked the question..
This is the question and answer I wanted and expected.

I expect problems in texas on occasion, but I expect enough of my brothers to stand by me.  I haven't asked this question in forums where brothers appear on CNN, etc.  I've asked it where others have.  

And I'm happy that in my own state, and among my own brothers,  I got the answer I expected from other fellow brother masons.  Masonly support.  In the other forum there was only theories and pontification.  Zero support.

My point was made and found (and question asked very directly, btw).  Thank you brothers.  I'm in the minority on political discourse here, but on the level as I should be.


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## TCShelton (Nov 19, 2009)

JEbeling said:


> Just to many "What if's" ...? kinda sounds like someone is try to make a point.. ! but can't come out and ask the question..? if we take care of TEXAS lodges and let other grand lodges take care of their problems.. ! think we will have enough to do..?



What?  Am I hearing this right?  Bro. Ebeling, are you coming out to help us take care of some issues? j/k


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## JEbeling (Nov 19, 2009)

The word is "IS" not "ARE" brother Shelton.. ! 
you have a fine morning.. !


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## ncm_pkt (Nov 19, 2009)

Sorry to hear about this problem brother.  I agree with all of our other brothers that action should be taken against this behavior that isn't masonic at all. You would not have this problem at my mother lodge.


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## TCShelton (Nov 19, 2009)

JEbeling said:


> The word is "IS" not "ARE" brother Shelton.. !
> !



Thanks, I fixed it.. !


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## Gerald.Harris (Nov 19, 2009)

drapetomaniac said:


> A couple of large Masonic forums seems to hedge this question. (And by seem, I mean ignore)
> 
> hypothetically speaking.....................
> If a Black friend sits with you in lodge for 15 years and you cross a state line - they admit you but not your Brother and even state it's because he is Black.  What do you do and what do your expect you jurisdiction to react to the lack of recognition of a brother form your jurisdiction?
> ...



This forum does not hedge this question. We have had several great discussions regarding this issue. Simply put, there is no place for racism in our fraternity. It is not only inconsistent with our obligations, it is just not right.


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## TCShelton (Nov 19, 2009)

Well put, Bro. Harris.


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## js4253 (Nov 19, 2009)

Sirius said:


> If they dont let my friend in we leave and go to the Waffle House. Seriously, I'm waiting for all the old school bigots to die so Masonry can be reborn.



Your wish is coming true.  They are dying off by the thousands.


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## Zack (Nov 19, 2009)

Brother Sirius, you paint with a pretty wide brush.
I doubt seriously that all the "younger" Masons are devoid of bigotry.


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## Sirius (Dec 6, 2009)

Zack said:


> Brother Sirius, you paint with a pretty wide brush.
> I doubt seriously that all the "younger" Masons are devoid of bigotry.




All? No. But the numbers look a lot better.


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## JEbeling (Dec 6, 2009)

saw a lot of young black masons walking around Grand Lodge with aprons on, talking and interacting with other masons... ! don't think anybody payed any attention to them.. !


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## Bill Lins (Dec 7, 2009)

drapetomaniac, to what "other forum" are you referring?

BTW, I *love* Waffle House!

As to filing charges against a Lodge in another jurisdiction, y'all might want to take a look at *our* Law Book Article 383.


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## drapetomaniac (Dec 7, 2009)

I also visit The Sanctum Sanctorum and The Masonic Society forums.

On this and related issues, there is often a lot of pontificating and avoiding even insinuating there is a problem anywhere.  A lot of it revolves around not addressing other jurisdictions or GLs as a whole as a matter of rule. I suspect if we got to rambunctious in here in talking about another jurisdiction (GL) directly, the same might happen. 

But on the whole in the TMS forum, there was zero indication someone would support their Brother.


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## Bill Lins (Dec 7, 2009)

I didn't know- never been to either of those forums. Doesn't sound like they're worth the trip.


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## vanderson78102 (Dec 8, 2009)

If it were me I wouldn't sit in that lodge.  It's stupid to talk about brotherly love and then not practice it.


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## RAY (Dec 8, 2009)

You can't dictate to other Grand Lodges on what they need to do or who they will allow to sit in Lodge. The first stand to in your obligation states this and the second covers the lodge. The best thing to do is obey your obligations or if this rubs you the wrong way move to another state that conforms to your way's.


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## drapetomaniac (Dec 8, 2009)

RAY said:


> You can't dictate to other Grand Lodges on what they need to do or who they will allow to sit in Lodge. The first stand to in your obligation states this and the second covers the lodge. The best thing to do is obey your obligations or if this rubs you the wrong way move to another state that conforms to your way's.



Which would mean cease being a mason, even if the reason is unmasonic.

If there are jurisdictions in the United States that have spoken or unspoken rules against certain men, those men cease to be masons as they travel through those borders? And their Brother from his home lodge who it doesn't apply to ceases to recognize him if they travel or move to the same?

(Think military transfers to different states)


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## TCShelton (Dec 8, 2009)

drapetomaniac said:


> Which would mean cease being a mason, even if the reason is unmasonic.
> 
> If there are jurisdictions in the United States that have spoken or unspoken rules against certain men, those men cease to be masons as they travel through those borders? And their Brother from his home lodge who it doesn't apply to ceases to recognize him if they travel or move to the same?
> 
> (Think military transfers to different states)



+1.


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## Wingnut (Dec 8, 2009)

or since GL is the members of the state voting on resolutions, work to get a resolution passed to change the rules.


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## RAY (Dec 8, 2009)

drapetomaniac said:


> Which would mean cease being a mason, even if the reason is unmasonic.


 
If there are jurisdictions in the United States that have spoken or unspoken rules against certain men, those men cease to be masons as they travel through those borders? And their Brother from his home lodge who it doesn't apply to ceases to recognize him if they travel or move to the same?


None that I am aware of and I have sat in Lodge in many states. There are many Black Masons in Texas Lodges and several past masters whom I have sat in lodge with. The Prince Hall Masons however choose not to have visitations with either GL or Masonic Lodges and only requested recognition. The main problem is the many Grand Lodge off shoots of PH and these are without warrants or charters therefor clandestine as is many lodges in the Houston and surrounding area and actually in every state. I have never seen any one rejected from a Texas lodge with proper credentials. This is just the way it is and possibly someday the PH GL can clean up this situation and make things a little better for all masons. I recommend you google "bogus masonic lodges' as this may  help clear up your concerns


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## TCShelton (Dec 9, 2009)

RAY said:


> This is just the way it is and possibly someday the PH GL can clean up this situation and make things a little better for all masons. I recommend you google "bogus masonic lodges' as this may  help clear up your concerns



What exactly does PH need to "clean up?"  There are irregular lodges all over the place, and not all of them are labelled as "Prince Hall."  The PHGLoT would have no jurisdiction over these lodges, since they aren't recognized by them.

As far as the regular PHGLoT not wanting visitation, that is a rumor, and not necessarily a truthful one.


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## owls84 (Dec 9, 2009)

TCShelton said:


> What exactly does PH need to "clean up?"  There are irregular lodges all over the place, and not all of them are labelled as "Prince Hall."  The PHGLoT would have no jurisdiction over these lodges, since they aren't recognized by them.
> 
> As far as the regular PHGLoT not wanting visitation, that is a rumor, and not necessarily a truthful one.



+1, I do get tired of the same thing "They don't want it". Who has told us this? Who said they don't want it?


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## TCShelton (Dec 9, 2009)

owls84 said:


> Who has told us this? Who said they don't want it?


Not PH.


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## Wingnut (Dec 9, 2009)

owls84 said:


> +1, I do get tired of the same thing "They don't want it". Who has told us this? Who said they don't want it?



I can only go by the compact signing on the MWPH of TX website that says

_"Masons of both Grand Jurisdictions should be aware that the actions taken by their Grand Jurisdictions restricts their members from joining, visiting, merging, meeting or having Masonic communications with each other.  These actions guarantee the autonomy of each organization and assure the right to reside and work together in Peach, Harmony and Brotherly Love."_

and statements Ive been told by PHA brothers online.

and if it wasn't for the last paragraph, I wonder if any recognition would have been sought....

_"The ultimate goal for the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas is to obtain mutual Fraternal recognition with the Mother Grand Lodge, The United Grand Lodge of England."_


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## TCShelton (Dec 9, 2009)

Right, Wing, it says that both agreed not to have visitation at the time.  Doesn't say why, or how the agreement came about.


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