# Knights of Columbus and Freemasonry



## AyrStrat

Dear all,

I'm currently under the investigation process to be accepted as EA in a Texan Blue Lodge.

Meanwhile, I just found out that one person working in my company is a 3rd degree Knight of Columbus and also a Webelos Leader and Badge Counselor of Boys Scouts of America.

Before initiating any conversation with him on this topic, I would like to understand if they are receptive to Freemasonry and also if there are members of Knights of Columbus who are also Freemasons.

PS: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that Boy Scouts have fraternal links with Freemasonry.

Many thanks.

Regards


----------



## Elexir

SouthernLleyton said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I'm currently under the investigation process to be accepted as EA in a Texan Blue Lodge.
> 
> Meanwhile, I just found out that one person working in my company is a 3rd degree Knight of Columbus and also a Webelos Leader and Badge Counselor of Boys Scouts of America.
> 
> Before initiating any conversation with him on this topic, I would like to understand if they are receptive to Freemasonry and also if there are members of Knights of Columbus who are also Freemasons.
> 
> PS: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that Boy Scouts have fraternal links with Freemasonry.
> 
> Many thanks.
> 
> Regards



No.

KoC dont have any fraternal links with freemasonry whatsoever.
One of the reasons is that the catholic church has problems with freemasonry (no the RCCs stance on freemasonry did not change during vatican 2).
There are knights who are freemasons though


----------



## CLewey44

SouthernLleyton said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I'm currently under the investigation process to be accepted as EA in a Texan Blue Lodge.
> 
> Meanwhile, I just found out that one person working in my company is a 3rd degree Knight of Columbus and also a Webelos Leader and Badge Counselor of Boys Scouts of America.
> 
> Before initiating any conversation with him on this topic, I would like to understand if they are receptive to Freemasonry and also if there are members of Knights of Columbus who are also Freemasons.
> 
> PS: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that Boy Scouts have fraternal links with Freemasonry.
> 
> Many thanks.
> 
> Regards



To my knowledge, I've never heard of any fraternal relationship between BSA and Freemasonry. I have heard that we gain more Masons from BSA than any other organization but they don't tie in together in any way. As for KofC, I believe they are the Catholic version of Freemasonry/Rotary type of organization. I would not be too concerned with offending anyone if you have the conversation about being a Freemason.


----------



## Mike Martin

SouthernLleyton said:


> Before initiating any conversation with him on this topic, I would like to understand if they are receptive to Freemasonry and also if there are members of Knights of Columbus who are also Freemasons.


The Knights in all their forms are Catholic copies of Freemasonry because the Catholic church doesn't like Freemasonry.



SouthernLleyton said:


> PS: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that Boy Scouts have fraternal links with Freemasonry.


Nope, the Scouts is not a Fraternity or Masonic so not possible.


----------



## dfreybur

I know several dual members of Masonry and KofC. Just like I know several dual members of Masonry and the Elks or several other fraternal orders. Our orders are like ships passing in the night.

Scouting has never had any official association with Masonry at levels above lodge and troop. Plenty of lodges donate meeting space to troops and that's the limit of it.


----------



## Winter

I'm curious what the church has to say.  The last I heard was that the Declaration on Masonic Associations (_Declaratio de associationibus massonicis) _issued by the Church of the Doctrine of the Faith in 1983 by then Cardinal Ratzinger that prohibits Freemasons was still in effect.  And I distinctly remember him emphatically stating that it was still in effect when he became Pope in 2005.


----------



## Elexir

Winter said:


> I'm curious what the church has to say.  The last I heard was that the Declaration on Masonic Associations (_Declaratio de associationibus massonicis) _issued by the Church of the Doctrine of the Faith in 1983 by then Cardinal Ratzinger that prohibits Freemasons was still in effect.  And I distinctly remember him emphatically stating that it was still in effect when he became Pope in 2005.



Pope Francis also has a anti-masonic stance.
One of the allegations put forth against the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (not related to freemasonry) was that there where freemasons amongst it ranks.


----------



## Warrior1256

SouthernLleyton said:


> I'm currently under the investigation process to be accepted as EA in a Texan Blue Lodge.


Congratulations!


----------



## drw72

Winter said:


> I'm curious what the church has to say.  The last I heard was that the Declaration on Masonic Associations (_Declaratio de associationibus massonicis) _issued by the Church of the Doctrine of the Faith in 1983 by then Cardinal Ratzinger that prohibits Freemasons was still in effect.  And I distinctly remember him emphatically stating that it was still in effect when he became Pope in 2005.



You are correct:

The 1917 Code of Canon Law explicitly declared that joining Freemasonry entailed automatic excommunication. The 1917 Code of Canon Law also forbade books promoting Freemasonry.

In 1983 the Church revised the Code of Canon Law. Unlike its predecessor, however, Canon 1374 does not explicitly name Masonic orders among the secret societies it condemns.

Because of this many people, including many Catholic scholars, took this to mean that it was now OK for Catholics to become Masons. And many Catholics did – especially in the United States—where the Church itself was already more liberal.

To “remove the confusion” in the wording, in November of 1983, Prefect Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued issued a declaration stating that the prohibition was still in force. Here is the catch; The Doctrine of Faith is not Canon Law, and cannot overturn Canon Law.

It seems to me the Catholic Church (here in America) has been somewhat indifferent about the whole issue. There are many examples of American Catholics being Masons, KofC, or both.


----------



## Winter

drw72 said:


> It seems to me the Catholic Church (here in America) has been somewhat indifferent about the whole issue. There are many examples of American Catholics being Masons, KofC, or both.



Catholicism in America is in serious decline.  A combination of rampant scandals and younger people just not identifying as religious means they are having more membership and financial woes than we are.  I think that most of the Catholic leadership just isn't interested in being strict on an issue that would potentially drive more people away.

It's also interesting to note that he Vatican's Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith is modern name of the Holy Inquisition.


----------



## Elexir

In scandinavia the bishops have un-officaly decided that catholics can join the swedish rite but nothing else.


----------



## Winter

Elexir said:


> In scandinavia the bishops have un-officaly decided that catholics can join the swedish rite but nothing else.



I assume that is because the Swedish Rite only permits Christians to be Freemasons?


----------



## drw72

Winter said:


> Catholicism in America is in serious decline.  A combination of rampant scandals and younger people just not identifying as religious means they are having more membership and financial woes than we are.  I think that most of the Catholic leadership just isn't interested in being strict on an issue that would potentially drive more people away.
> 
> It's also interesting to note that he Vatican's Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith is modern name of the Holy Inquisition.



Yep, the name changed in 1908.


----------



## Elexir

Winter said:


> I assume that is because the Swedish Rite only permits Christians to be Freemasons?



Correct.


----------



## Overworked724

I know a brother in my lodge who is a KOC, a 33rd degree in Scottish Rite, as well as thrice PM.  In my mind, membership in both are not nor should they be in conflict. He’s a great guy and proud to call him brother. 


Sent from my iPad using My Freemasonry


----------



## AyrStrat

Overworked724 said:


> I know a brother in my lodge who is a KOC, a 33rd degree in Scottish Rite, as well as thrice PM.  In my mind, membership in both are not nor should they be in conflict. He’s a great guy and proud to call him brother.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using My Freemasonry


That's really great to know.

Since it's a work environment, I'm quite afraid of starting a conversation on the topic and create an animosity in the case of my client (a KOC) is against masons.

Let's see...


----------



## Raymond Walters

SouthernLleyton said:


> That's really great to know.
> 
> Since it's a work environment, I'm quite afraid of starting a conversation on the topic and create an animosity in the case of my client (a KOC) is against masons.
> 
> Let's see...




That may ultimately be best...


----------



## JMartinez

Almost all the masons in my area are catholic 


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry Mobile


----------



## CLewey44

Here in the NE, many are Catholic as well.


----------



## Brother JC

Where I was Raised is a very Catholic town; 400-year old Spanish capital, Basilica Cathedral, 250-year old Guadalupe chapel, etc. The lodges would be hard-pressed to survive without Catholic members.
Yet most them tell stories of the nuns from their school making the children cross the street to avoid walking in front of the Scottish Rite Temple. The nuns told tales of children being eaten and their blood used to tint the stucco. Seriously, I can’t make this up!


----------



## CLewey44

Brother JC said:


> Where I was Raised is a very Catholic town; 400-year old Spanish capital, Basilica Cathedral, 250-year old Guadalupe chapel, etc. The lodges would be hard-pressed to survive without Catholic members.
> Yet most them tell stories of the nuns from their school making the children cross the street to avoid walking in front of the Scottish Rite Temple. The nuns told tales of children being eaten and their blood used to tint the stucco. Seriously, I can’t make this up!



Are you serious?!?!?


----------



## Brother JC

CLewey44 said:


> Are you serious?!?!?



Sadly, yes. It’s a huge, pink, Moorish castle, styled after the Alhambra. It’s an elegant venue for dinners, plays, movies, weddings, symphonies, yet there are educated adults who will not set foot inside because of what they were taught. Abuelas still use it to frighten their grandchildren.


----------



## flameburns623

Certain European expressions of quasi-Freemasonry are secularist to the point of being overtly anti-Catholic. (These versions of Masonry are also militantly anti-monarchist, and sometimes heavily politicized).

This antagonism to religion seems to be the root of the hostility between Freemasonry and Roman Catholicism.  I don't know if these European Masonic orders are clandestine or not.

However it does seem odd that otherwise intelligent hierarchs in the RCC cannot make nuanced distinctions between British-based Freemasonry,  which is NOT anti-Catholic, and those other types of Masonry which are.


----------



## Elexir

flameburns623 said:


> Certain European expressions of quasi-Freemasonry are secularist to the point of being overtly anti-Catholic. (These versions of Masonry are also militantly anti-monarchist, and sometimes heavily politicized).
> 
> This antagonism to religion seems to be the root of the hostility between Freemasonry and Roman Catholicism.  I don't know if these European Masonic orders are clandestine or not.
> 
> However it does seem odd that otherwise intelligent hierarchs in the RCC cannot make nuanced distinctions between British-based Freemasonry,  which is NOT anti-Catholic, and those other types of Masonry which are.



Actully the religious indifference is one of the reasons the RCC has a problem with british-based freemasonry.


----------



## Matt L

Baptised and confirmed Roman Catholic, very active in church and at one time considered the Priesthood.  I've written about that before.  I am York Rite Mason and a Knights Templar.  One of my uncles was a "Faithful Navigator" of a KOC assembly in Brooklyn NY. 
The RCC is very much against Freemasonry and sees it as a form of heresy.  I do not see that changing in my lifetime. I know many Catholic Masons. I know Catholic Masons that attend RCC and their membership is tolerated locally, as long as they don't participate in any of the sacraments.   
Diocese have been warned not to allow Freemasons in their congregations and the Church's view is that the Catholic Church and Freemasonry can never be reconciled.  I don't know how a man could be a member of the KOC and be a Freemason.  (rant off)  Sorry kinda worked up, the Patriots won today, I hate the Pats.


----------



## Warrior1256

Brother JC said:


> Yet most them tell stories of the nuns from their school making the children cross the street to avoid walking in front of the Scottish Rite Temple. The nuns told tales of children being eaten and their blood used to tint the stucco. Seriously, I can’t make this up!


Wow! Love those conspiracy theories!


----------



## Warrior1256

Matt L said:


> Baptised and confirmed Roman Catholic, very active in church and at one time considered the Priesthood. I've written about that before. I am York Rite Mason and a Knights Templar. One of my uncles was a "Faithful Navigator" of a KOC assembly in Brooklyn NY.
> The RCC is very much against Freemasonry and sees it as a form of heresy. I do not see that changing in my lifetime. I know many Catholic Masons. I know Catholic Masons that attend RCC and their membership is tolerated locally, as long as they don't participate in any of the sacraments.
> Diocese have been warned not to allow Freemasons in their congregations and the Church's view is that the Catholic Church and Freemasonry can never be reconciled. I don't know how a man could be a member of the KOC and be a Freemason. (rant off) Sorry kinda worked up, the Patriots won today, I hate the Pats.


A Senior Warden in one of the lodges I belong to quit Masonry recently because his priest told him that he and his fiance could not be married in the Church as long as he was a Freemason.


----------



## Schuetz

Although several here have said there is NO official link with the Boy Scouts of America, it must be said that their honor society, the Order of the Arrow, comes very close. Their traditions and rituals were borrowed from Freemasonry by its founders. I recently visited a Lodge in Southern Illinois where they had dispensation to allow the local Order to perform a practice of the Ordeal (a ceremony that plays out similar to our Degrees) in the middle of their stated meeting.

Q. E. L. Schuetz, M.M.
Shekinah Lodge No. 241 • IL
Murphysboro Lodge No. 498 • IL


----------



## AyrStrat

Schuetz said:


> Although several here have said there is NO official link with the Boy Scouts of America, it must be said that their honor society, the Order of the Arrow, comes very close. Their traditions and rituals were borrowed from Freemasonry by its founders. I recently visited a Lodge in Southern Illinois where they had dispensation to allow the local Order to perform a practice of the Ordeal (a ceremony that plays out similar to our Degrees) in the middle of their stated meeting.
> 
> Q. E. L. Schuetz, M.M.
> Shekinah Lodge No. 241 • IL
> Murphysboro Lodge No. 498 • IL




Is it correct to say that there is a link between Boy Scouts and the Catholic Church then?


----------



## Brother JC

SouthernLleyton said:


> Is it correct to say that there is a link between Boy Scouts and the Catholic Church then?



No, not even close.


----------



## Mike Martin

SouthernLleyton said:


> Is it correct to say that there is a link between Boy Scouts and the Catholic Church then?


No link at all.

However, I should point out that you're in the wrong place to ask these things.  I ALWAYS find that when asking questions about certain people or organisations that the responses are more likely to be accurate when asking them direct rather than unconnected third parties.responses


----------

