# Grand Lodge of Belgium suspends relations with Grand Lodge of Georgia (USA)



## Glen Cook (Mar 9, 2016)

From: RGLB - GLRB [mailto:rglb@rglb.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 12:40 AM
To: 'GLRB-RGLB'
Subject: Suspension of recognition of the Grand Lodge of Georgia

Grande Loge  Régulière de Belgique
Reguliere Grootloge van België
Regular Grand Lodge of Belgium




Brussels, March 8th, 2016



TO ALL GRAND LODGES IN AMITY



WB Grand Secretary,

The Regular Grand Lodge of Belgium has suspended its recognition of the Grand Lodge of Georgia (USA).
Please find attached the text of the declaration of suspension.

We also inform you that we are asking questions to the Grand Lodge of Tennessee concerning its intentions during its coming annual communication on the 23d and 24th of March, to change its disciplinary code regarding the articles on homosexuality and cohabitation outside marriage.

This mail has been sent to all the Grand Lodges in amity.

Yours fraternally,

Daniel Bauwens


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## coachn (Mar 9, 2016)

Is the Regular Grand Lodge of Belgium a Recognized GL?


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## MRichard (Mar 9, 2016)

coachn said:


> Is the Regular Grand Lodge of Belgium a Recognized GL?



Yes, it is. http://www.ugle.org.uk/about/foreign-grand-lodges . Click on Europe


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## tldubb (Mar 9, 2016)

Decisions have consequences !


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## NY.Light.II (Mar 9, 2016)

Good. Happy to see that injustice is not ignored.


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## coachn (Mar 9, 2016)

MRichard said:


> Yes, it is. http://www.ugle.org.uk/about/foreign-grand-lodges . Click on Europe


Thanks!


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## MRichard (Mar 9, 2016)

coachn said:


> Thanks!



No problem, Brother. I follow you on Facebook. Love your posts.


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## The Traveling Man (Mar 15, 2016)

I hope other Grand Lodges will do the same.


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## CLewey44 (Mar 15, 2016)

These lodges have to move forward. I'm sorry. It's just truth. It's a shame too for the Masons of GA that don't agree with the move and that want to visit around other lodges but now can't. All in the name of intolerance. Masonry is not supposed to favor one religion or political stance over another and now they've made something they should have never even made an issue, an issue. Not to mention, they've revealed their stance on this issue politically it seems, which to me, is a huge Masonic 'no-no'. Worrying about what others are doing, and in a way, dictating it's members lives (gay brothers specifically) is not the role Masonry should ever play in our lives. A man's relationship with GAOTU is his own business. 

This could, too, hurt membership if our institution is viewed in a negative manner and I hate to see that.


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## Glen Cook (Mar 15, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> ...Masonry is not supposed to favor one religion or political stance over another and now they've made something they should have never even made an issue, an issue. ....



And yet, we have Christian GLs; GL's which require a belief in the divine authenticity of the Bible; GL's which prohibit Communists; GL's which prohibit a belief in the overthrow of the government; GL's which require you to agree to support and defend the US Constitution...


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 15, 2016)

I feel no sympathy. These southern GLs continue to allow bigotry. "Let's all blow up over sexual orientation but let's keep racism hush hush." 

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## CLewey44 (Mar 15, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> And yet, we have Christian GLs; GL's which require a belief in the divine authenticity of the Bible; GL's which prohibit Communists; GL's which prohibit a belief in the overthrow of the government; GL's which require you to agree to support and defend the US Constitution...



I'm sure there are Christian GLs, not supposed to be based on basic Masonic principles, as Masonry is supposed to be fairly universal. There are several lodges in Turkiye and Phillipines and I doubt they have a Bible open inside them; especially Turkiye.  GLs that prohibit Communism are probably in country's that have had issues with Communism in their pasts and it goes against that country's current political system. (Devotion to country) Same with overthrowing the government. These things have a direct effect on millions of people. This gay issue has nothing to do with Masonic principles really nor on the general population. Does it go against Christianity? Some may say so and others won't. But so does a hundred different things that men 'shouldn't' be doing. You shouldn't cherry pick the Bible and apply it to your GL doctrine in my opinion.


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## Glen Cook (Mar 15, 2016)

Texas requires on its petition for the degrees a belief in the US Constitution and the divine  authenticity of the volume of sacred law. http://grandlodgeoftexas.org/assets/uploads/2015/10/26.pdf

Kentucky forbids  those who believe in the overthrow of the government.http://www.mastermason.com/mckee/newpetition.pdf

Oklahoma requires a belief in the one true and  living God, prohibits support of the overthrow of the government, and requires that one support the Constitution and agree to defend it.  http://www.gloklahoma.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/petition2011.pdf

Florida asks if you believe in the one ever living and true God. It also prohibits a belief in the overthrow of the government.  http://grandlodgefl.com/docs/GLF_Forms/GL 601 Petition for the Degrees.pdf


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## Bloke (Mar 15, 2016)

Thanks for that info Glen


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## Randy81 (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I feel no sympathy. These southern GLs continue to allow bigotry. "Let's all blow up over sexual orientation but let's keep racism hush hush."
> 
> Sent from my 831C using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


My thoughts exactly! I'm not saying I agree with the decision of GA or TN but did any of these Grand Lodges stand up to any sort of racism or anything else? Additionally, do you really think that GA or TN care that these Grand Lodges are doing this? I'm sure everyone in the South are just heart broken about what California thinks about them. I don't think sexual orientation should matter, but like @Travelling Man91 said, you can't act all righteous about one thing and ignore the other!


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

Furthermore, they are throwing out  Christian biblical explanations as to why they don't want a homosexual man to be a  freemason. But can't can't explain why they discriminate against a man based on his race. I'd like biblical explanations on that issue. I say hypocrisy at the most high. Again, I don't believe either GL cares, but maybe this will shed some light on how Southern GL operate in hatred. If they do decide to see the light, I hope they change because they want to    become better men, not just please the craft and get the heat off of them.


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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

Randy81 said:


> My thoughts exactly! I'm not saying I agree with the decision of GA or TN but did any of these Grand Lodges stand up to any sort of racism or anything else? Additionally, do you really think that GA or TN care that these Grand Lodges are doing this? I'm sure everyone in the South are just heart broken about what California thinks about them. I don't think sexual orientation should matter, but like @Travelling Man91 said, you can't act all righteous about one thing and ignore the other!



The difference is that they put it in writing. They (GA) voted on it. There is nothing written prohibiting men of certain races from joining to the best of my knowledge.


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## alterian (Mar 16, 2016)

A while ago a lodge let in men of color, wasn't the GL of GA thinking about pulling their charter. Wasn't there emails exchanged? It was some how written, wasn't it about to go to court?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

MRichard said:


> The difference is that they put it in writing. They (GA) voted on it. There is nothing written prohibiting men of certain races from joining to the best of my knowledge.


It doesn't have to be "written". It's called an "unwritten" rule. Actions speak louder than words. It's not written due to the fear of law suits. Look at how many brothers have petitioned or attempted to petition and was turned away.  GA is coming along slowly, TN not so much


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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> It doesn't have to be "written". It's called an "unwritten" rule. Actions speak louder than words. It's not written due to the fear of law suits. Look at how many brothers have petitioned or attempted to petition and was turned away.  GA is coming along slowly, TN not so much



It makes a big difference. It is very simple to prove discrimination when they put it in writing? Much more difficult when it is not.


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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

alterian said:


> A while ago a lodge let in men of color, wasn't the GL of GA thinking about pulling their charter. Wasn't there emails exchanged? It was some how written, wasn't it about to go to court?



Golden Gate Lodge or something like that. Don't remember what happened cause I was not a freemason then.


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## JJones (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> It doesn't have to be "written". It's called an "unwritten" rule. Actions speak louder than words. It's not written due to the fear of law suits. Look at how many brothers have petitioned or attempted to petition and was turned away.  GA is coming along slowly, TN not so much



Lots of petitioners probably should be turned away anyhow, regardless or race, or orientation.

Anyhow, if someone petitions your lodge that you feel won't be a good fit for the lodge or its brethren then you have a right to turn them away.  Should a man be turned away just for being black? No, but he probably won't want to associate with a bunch of racists anyhow, would he?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

Yes, they threatend to pull the charter accusing them of violating an ancient landmark.

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## alterian (Mar 16, 2016)

JJones said:


> Lots of petitioners probably should be turned away anyhow, regardless or race, or orientation.
> 
> Anyhow, if someone petitions your lodge that you feel won't be a good fit for the lodge or its brethren then you have a right to turn them away.  Should a man be turned away just for being black? No, but he probably won't want to associate with a bunch of racists anyhow, would he?



Well, for that matter then should masonry associate with racist.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

MRichard said:


> It makes a big difference. It is very simple to prove discrimination when they put it in writing? Much more difficult when it is not.


Yes it is harder to prove but easier to get away with if not written. For example : say my lodge doesn't won't a Hispanic man to join our Lodge, everytime a Hispanic man tries to join he would receive a black ball. Although nothing in our constitution prohibits a Hispanic man from joining, the Lodge and GL has ways of keeping people out.


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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Yes it is harder to prove but easier to get away with if not written. For example : say my lodge doesn't won't a Hispanic man to join our Lodge, everytime a Hispanic man tries to join he would receive a black ball. Although nothing in our constitution prohibits a Hispanic man from joining, the Lodge and GL has ways of keeping people out.



You preaching to the choir. But I must point out that individuals cast black cubes, not lodges or grand lodges.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

JJones said:


> Lots of petitioners probably should be turned away anyhow, regardless or race, or orientation.
> 
> Anyhow, if someone petitions your lodge that you feel won't be a good fit for the lodge or its brethren then you have a right to turn them away.  Should a man be turned away just for being black? No, but he probably won't want to associate with a bunch of racists anyhow, would he?


That's the whole problem within freemasonry. Go "With your own kind where you will feel welcome." Why would you want to associate yourself with a bunch of racists ? The real question is Why would a racist want to be a freemason where we accept good men of all colors and creeds.


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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> That's the whole problem within freemasonry. Go "With your own kind where you will feel welcome." Why would you want to associate yourself with a bunch of racists ? The real question is Why would a racist want to be a freemason where we accept good men of all colors and creeds.



That's quite the assumption. In many places, men of color just starting coming in the last decade or so depending on where you live. The Grand Lodge of Alabama just initiated the first Black man in January 2016. Think about that for a second.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

Why aren't GLS pulling charters from subordinate lodges that discriminate ? Isn't that unmasonic conduct. You would think with what freemasonry stands for, GLS would want go preserve our innocent craft.

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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

MRichard said:


> You preaching to the choir. But I must point out that individuals cast black cubes, not lodges or grand lodges.


I agree. I say lodges in regards to subordinate lodges that operate in bigotry as a whole. Of course not every subordinate Lodge that falls under the GL of TN or GA are bigots. I say GLS for not doing anything to stop it. I'm a firm believer in "if you see something wrong and if in your power make to a change you either don't do it or ignore the problem then your just as guilty as the one doing it."


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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Why aren't GLS pulling charters from subordinate lodges that discriminate ? Isn't that unmasonic conduct. You would think with what freemasonry stands for, GLS would want go preserve our innocent craft.
> 
> Sent from my 831C using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



It's simple. You can't prove it. Furthermore, individuals cast black cubes, not lodges or grand lodges. Second time I stated that. You can't discuss how you voted.

Frankly, I don't know why these grand lodges decided to put the discriminatory practices in writing. It wasn't very smart in my opinion.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

MRichard said:


> That's quite the assumption. In many places, men of color just starting coming in the last decade or so depending on where you live. The Grand Lodge of Alabama just initiated the first Black man in January 2016. Think about that for a second.


Exactly. So what does that tell you ? Times are changing for some, but not for all. I'm addressing GLS that refuse and continue to allow racism in a organization that contradicts racism.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

MRichard said:


> It's simple. You can't prove it. Furthermore, individuals cast black cubes, not lodges or grand lodges. Second time I stated that. You can't discuss how you voted.
> 
> Frankly, I don't know why these grand lodges decided to put the discriminatory practices in writing. It wasn't very smart in my opinion.


Why can't you prove it ? How does the government prove that an employer has discriminated against hiring minorities ? Simple, they look at previous applicant applications to see who has all applied within a certain time frame. Hmm well 50 minorities applied, but one White male applied and he got the job..... the government will argue "you mean to tell me all 50 weren't qualified ?" Same for GL. Make subordinate lodges that are on the radar for possible bigotry give a record of who all petitioned the lodge. If 20 men of different races petitioned and none was accepted, then look into it. Not asking how one voted, but explain to the Lodge hey, your vote is your vote but we don't discriminate based on race etc.


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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Exactly. So what does that tell you ? Times are changing for some, but not for all. I'm addressing GLS that refuse and continue to allow racism in a organization that contradicts racism.



There are issues on both sides. People have claimed that PHA don't take Muslims. I am referring to comments I saw on a Prince Hall Think Tank. I have no idea whether that is true or not.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

MRichard said:


> There are issues on both sides. People have claimed that PHA don't take Muslims. I am referring to comments I saw on a Prince Hall Think Tank. I have no idea whether that is true or not.


False : I attended the raising of a Muslim brother.


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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Why can't you prove it ? How the government prove that an employer has discriminated against hiring minorities ? Simple, they look at previous applicant applications to see who has all applied within a certain time frame. Hmm well 50 minorities applied, but one White male applied and he got the job..... the government will argue "you mean to tell me all 50 weren't qualified ?" Same for GL. Make subordinate lodges give a record  of who all petitioned the lodge. If 20 men of different races petitioned and none was accepted, then look into it. Not asking how one voted, but explain to the Lodge hey, your vote is your vote but we don't discriminate based on race etc.



There are employment laws for one thing. This is a private organization for another. Big difference.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

There are issues on both side. Not denying it one bit. I'm not just on this forum discussing this issue. I actually speak with brother from both GLS regarding this issue. I've spoke on it in my own lodge.

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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> False : I attended a raising of a Muslim brother.



So you can speak for all PHA lodges? Wow. Funny, how that works.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

MRichard said:


> There are employment laws for one thing. This is a private organization for another. Big difference.


Discrimination is discrimination brother. There's no difference. If there was a difference then what's going on in the GL of GA and TN wouldn't matter.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

MRichard said:


> So you can speak for all PHA lodges? Wow. Funny, how that works.


Well given the fact that freemasonry isn't suppose to discriminate against a man for his religious view as long as he believes in a Supreme being I would say yes. That's PHA and GL. Are you aware of any PHA GL that doesn't allow Muslim brothers ? Please share so I can make a phone call ? Again I attended a raising of a Muslim brother. Now are there possibly some subordinate lodges that are predominantly Christian and shun the Islamic faith... sure thing, but are they operating on how the GL wants things to be ran.... no http://


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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Discrimination is discrimination brother. There's no difference. If there was a difference then what's going on in the GL of GA and TN wouldn't matter.



It matters cause they put it in writing and expelled a gay couple in TN. Otherwise, you probably wouldn't know about it.


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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Well given the fact that freemasonry isn't suppose to discriminate against a man for his religious view as long as he believes in a Supreme being I would say yes. That's PHA and GL. Are you aware of any PHA GL that doesn't allow Muslim brothers ? Please share so I can make a phone call ?



Make the call anyway. Search for the truth.


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## Bloke (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Why aren't GLS pulling charters from subordinate lodges that discriminate ? Isn't that unmasonic conduct. You would think with what freemasonry stands for, GLS would want go preserve our innocent craft



I think the less GLs interfere with lodges, the better. 

Each lodge should be able to regulate itself according to the Const. and landmarks. No lodge should be compelled to take a candidate. There is no rule that all petitioners should be accepted. Trying to prove discrimination on race is tricky, and on one level, all are discriminated against, male, over 18 (or21), not an atheist etc... I would NEVER propose a candidate who I thought would be blackballed. If a lodge would not take a worthy candidate because of the colour of his skin, I would keep searching until I found a lodge which would. Fortunately, I am not a member of a lodge like that, nor do I know one in our Const.

Here is the criteria I use, once all the standard stuff is ticked, the question  comes "is this a guy you would want to be at a dinner party with ? is this a guy you would like to spend a weekend with ?" At the end of the day, lodges are social places and need to be built with that in mind breeding out unfavourble characteristics (racism being one) and creating a body of men who mutually support and improve each other. That's not about rules. That's about creating culture.


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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Now are there possibly some subordinate lodges that are predominantly Christian and shun the Islamic faith... sure thing, but are they operating on how the GL wants things to be ran.... no



Well, isn't that discrimination per se?


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

MRichard said:


> Make the call anyway. Search for the truth.


There is no need to make the call unless you can give the subordinate Lodge name or GL in which you are referring to. You stated "that you heard PHA doesn't accept Muslim's" I informed you that I attended a raising of a Muslim brother. You then stated that I am speaking for PHA as a whole. I then advised you yes because a qualification to being a freemason is believing in a Supreme being. Doesn't ask which. That's not just PHA, that  should be any regular lodge or GL for that matter.


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## Bloke (Mar 16, 2016)

MRichard said:


> It matters cause they put it in writing and expelled a gay couple in TN. Otherwise, you probably wouldn't know about it.



Interesting that. You wonder what they were thinking creating that evidentiary document. On one level, it is good they did that because it brought the issue out. Does that make Tenn GL better than those who do this surreptitiously? Perhaps it does..


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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> There is no need to make the call unless you can give the subordinate Lodge name or GL in which you are referring to. You stated "that you heard PHA doesn't accept Muslim's" I informed you that I attended a raising of a Muslim brother. You then stated that I am speaking for PHA as a whole. I then advised you that it didn't matter what religion a man was as long as he believed in a Supreme being. That should be any regular lodge or GL for that matter.



Frankly, you already confirmed what I heard. I had it mixed up but you corrected me. Thanks.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

MRichard said:


> Well, isn't that discrimination per se?


Yes it is, did I not state that I am speaking on all loges that allow bigotry. Not to mention, this is the first time I've heard of PHA not allowing Muslim's in. And again, I said shun, ( meaning not in favor of) but would still accept. You read it online so it must be true right.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

Bloke said:


> I think the less GLs interfere with lodges, the better.
> 
> Each lodge should be able to regulate itself according to the Const. and landmarks. No lodge should be compelled to take a candidate. There is no rule that all petitioners should be accepted. Trying to prove discrimination on race is tricky, and on one level, all are discriminated against, male, over 18 (or21), not an atheist etc... I would NEVER propose a candidate who I thought would be blackballed. If a lodge would not take a worthy candidate because of the colour of his skin, I would keep searching until I found a lodge which would. Fortunately, I am not a member of a lodge like that, nor do I know one in our Const.
> 
> Here is the criteria I use, once all the standard stuff is ticked, the question  comes "is this a guy you would want to be at a dinner party with ? is this a guy you would like to spend a weekend with ?" At the end of the day, lodges are social places and need to be built with that in mind breeding out unfavourble characteristics (racism being one) and creating a body of men who mutually support and improve each other. That's not about rules. That's about creating culture.


Sure. But on the same token, if their not policing themselves in regards to discrimination, who is suppose to regulate them ?


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## MRichard (Mar 16, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Yes it is, did I not state that I am speaking on all loges that allow bigotry. Not to mention, this is the first time I've heard of PHA not allowing Muslim's in. And again, I said shun, ( meaning not in favor of) but would still accept. You read it online so it must be true right.



Shun means to reject. You are backtracking now.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 16, 2016)

MRichard said:


> Shun means to reject. You are backtracking now.


Not back tracking, wrong choice of word. My apology.  That's why I used my own interpretation of the word. At the time couldn't think of the right word to use. In other words, Some may not be  in favor of the  Islamic faith or any faith that is not of their own, but they would still allow them  to join. I guess one could argue discrimination for the sole purpose of not welcoming with open arms, I don't know how well that would go for them for the  simple fact they still allowed them to join. And again I've never heard of this happening in any PHA GL or subordinate lodge, so this is just my speculation on this matter.


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## Classical (Mar 16, 2016)

Bloke,

You're hitting on all cylinders tonight! Well done, sir.


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## JJones (Mar 17, 2016)

@Bloke 

You saved me a lot of typing tonight, took the words right out of my mouth.


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## Bloke (Mar 17, 2016)

Thanks Classical and JJones



Travelling Man91 said:


> Sure. But on the same token, if their not policing themselves in regards to discrimination, who is suppose to regulate them ?



Is a huge part of Freemasonry to train a man to self regulate? These brothers need to look into their own hearts and realise they are not acting on the level. Calling them names will not move them to do that, reason might. Experience and looking at their ashlar surely will if they only have the lightest touch of the Craft...


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## Dontrell Stroman (Mar 17, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Thanks Classical and JJones
> 
> 
> 
> Is a huge part of Freemasonry to train a man to self regulate? These brothers need to look into their own hearts and realise they are not acting on the level. Calling them names will not move them to do that, reason might. Experience and looking at their ashlar surely will if they only have the lightest touch of the Craft...


I agree. Freemasonry educates on how to build the inner man. "When you know better you do better" sounds to me like some brothers need to RE learn and apply the working tools .


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## Bloke (Mar 17, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> I agree. Freemasonry educates on how to build the inner man. "When you know better you do better" sounds to me like some brothers need to RE learn and apply the working tools .



I'm still trying to learn (apply) them - I haven't even got to the "RE lean" bit yet and expect (and hope) I never will


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## Brother_Steve (Mar 21, 2016)

tldubb said:


> Decisions have consequences !


I see that you are PHA so I will ask you this question. How do you feel that it took this kind of discrimination to get a reaction from other Grand Lodges?

Racism practiced at the ballot box is okay so long as it is not written down. Does this bother you at all that one form of discrimination has more merit than another?


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