# Anyone else disappointed by...



## BroPrince (Aug 31, 2014)

The lack of love you get from brothers outside your lodge??

One thing i loved about becoming a Mason was the amount of guys I get to call my brothers after being initiated. 

My lodge is an hour from me but locally i have 2 lodges and I thought in the spirit of brotherhood, I should stop by n get to know them as they are 1. Brothers and 2, local.

I went to the 1st one n they didnt recognize or even care to meet me because I was AfAm.... And then the 2nd one wouldn't even speak to me and basically shoo'd me out. After driving by it twice, the door was open so i knocked & slowly walked in.

I'm black so at first he thought i was prince hall n i said no, im AFAM.. After saying so he basically escorted me to the door.

Wtf... This mason shit is supposed to be about brotherhood, acceptance, etc... This brother hugged me, i gave him a token, he even asked me a few questions to make sure i was true and then simply walked me out. 

I've been a Mason for 3 months and i love my Masonic journey but so far I have not seen the fraternal aspect of it.. Alot of these guys r assholes man, pardon my french.

Sometimes it makes me wonder why i did this shit...


----------



## Brother JC (Aug 31, 2014)

Where are you located? Which Grand Lodge are you with? Which GL are those other lodges with? Yes, Masons should all meet on the level, but there are some layers of regularity and recognition to wade through.


----------



## Levelhead (Aug 31, 2014)

AF and AM vs F and AM States



What is the difference between AF and AM vs F and AM STATES?
AF and AM stands for Ancient Free and Accepted Masons.

F and AM stands for Free and Accepted Masons.



In actuality, it does not matter whether you join an AF & AM lodge or an F & AM lodge in the United States.

In the U.S., every regular lodge is under the jurisdiction of its state Grand Lodge.  Due to the fact that there is no Grand Lodge Headquarters for each state's separate Grand Lodge, each state's Grand Lodge is, therefore, its own "headquarters" within that state's jurisdiction.

All Freemasons, both AF & AM (which means Ancient Free and Accepted Masons, as well as F & AM, which means Free and Accepted Masons, trace their allegorical history back to the building of Solomon's temple in the Holy Scriptures.

Freemasonry was exported to the British Colonies in North America in the 1730s—with both the "Ancients" (sometimes also referred to as "Antients") and the "Moderns" (as well as the Grand Lodges of Ireland and Scotland) which chartered offspring ("daughter") lodges, and organized various Provincial Grand Lodges.

After the American Revolution, independent U.S. Grand Lodges formed within each state.



Ancient Free and Accepted Masons versus Free and Accepted Masons

From 1751 to 1813, there were actually 2 Grand Lodges in England.  The difference in AF and AM vs F and AM states goes back to a disagreement between these 2 Grand Lodges in London at that time. 

One group was called the "Moderns", but was actually the older of the 2 English Grand Lodges.  The other group was called the "Antients", which became the "Ancients" in AF and AM.

Due to this disagreement, the 2 groups broke into separate Grand Lodges.  The disagreement was later healed around 1880, but by that time, there were lodges and Grand Lodges all over the United States that were descended from one group or the other, and so each group kept their corresponding initials with which they were formed, (which is the reason for which there are small differences within different states' ritual wording and Grand Lodge By-Laws and procedures).

Most Grand Lodges in the U.S. recognize each other and treat each other's members as valid Masons.

Also, all of the U.S. Grand Lodges recognize (and are recognized by) the official Grand Lodges of England, Ireland, Scotland and the Grand Lodges in most of Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, Thailand, India, etc.

Prince Hall Masonic Lodge



Historically, the regular (mainstream) Grand Lodges did not recognize the lodges under the "Prince Hall" Grand Lodges.

The Prince Hall Masonic Lodge descends from a lodge of Black Freemasons in Boston begun by a Black man by the name of Prince Hall. 

Prince Hall Free Masonry began during the War of Independence, when Prince Hall and fourteen other free black men were initiated into Lodge # 441, Irish Constitution, attached to the 38th Regiment of Foot of the British Army garrisoned at Castle Williams...now called Fort Independence, at Boston Harbor on March 6, 1775. 

Later, they applied for and received a Charter from the Grand Lodge of England. 

After Prince Hall passed away, the lodge ceased to function.  Many years later, Black Masons established their own Prince Hall Masonic Grand Lodge.  They subsequently issued charters to Black men for subordinate lodges. 

Today, many Prince Hall Masonic Grand Lodge are recognized by the regular (mainstream) Grand Lodges.  In other states, they are termed as affiliated. 

Any Prince Hall Masonic Grand Lodge which is not recognized by their regular counterparts are termed as irregular (non-mainstream) lodges.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

AF and AM vs F and AM states grand lodges may be determined as to which state is which, below.


AF and AM vs F and AM States... vs AFM States... vs FAAM States

--------------------------------------------------

AF & AM States

AF & AM - Ancient Free and Accepted Masons

These 24 AF & AM states include:  CO, CT, DE, ID, IL, IA, KS, ME, MD, MA, MN, MO, MT, NE, NM, NC, ND, OK, OR, SD, TX, VA, WV, WY.

F & A M States:

F & AM - Free and Accepted Masons

These 25 F & AM states include:  AL, AK, AR, AZ, CA, FL, GA, HI, IN, KY, LA, MI, MS, NH, NJ, NV, NY, OH, PA, RI, TN, UT, VT, WA, WI.

All Prince Hall lodges are also F. & A.M.

AFM State:

AFM - Ancient Free Masons

There is 1 AFM state:  SC   

FAAM District:

FAAM - Free And Accepted Masons

The District of Columbia is F.A.A.M.

---------------------------------------------------------------------



So, what is the difference between Ancient Free and Accepted Masons, and Free and Accepted Masons and the members of Accepted Free Mason states and Free and Accepted Mason states?

The few intrinsic differences between AF and AM vs F and AM states grand lodges, the AFM grand lodge in South Carolina, and the FAAM in Washington, D.C., are minimal.

While both AF and AM vs F and AM states exist, along with AFM states and FAAM in the District of Columbia, (with small differences in ritual wording, some officer titles, etc.) in essence, these minimal differences are not as important as the shared brotherhood between all of these groups within the fraternity. 



The only time that this difference might be important is if you purchase a piece of Masonic jewelry, a Past Master apron, a Masonic shirt, Masonic certificate, or other item which is engraved, embroidered or printed with a specific jurisdictional designation.

Some of these items are pre-printed with a specific designation. Therefore, knowing the designation of your particular lodge (AF and AM vs F and AM states, etc.), proves helpful so as not to mis-order an item. 










Read more: http://www.masonic-lodge-of-education.com/af-and-am-vs-f-and-am-states.html#ixzz3Bzg8F9dP


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Aug 31, 2014)

Heckfire, I have been treated like that by Brothers whose skin color was the same as mine.   But that is beside the point.  Freemasonry is a place for each Mason to become a better person.  The quickest path to achieving this is often by forgiving your Fellowman for his shortcomings.  On those occasions where a Freemason does not to fall victim to his human failings it is usually because of a correct application of will.

P.S. I belong to two Lodges in two different states,  One is AF&AM and one is F&AM.  I see no conflicts.


----------



## Levelhead (Aug 31, 2014)

Sadly brothers i think he might of encountered a lodge that does not recognize Prince Hall AND ignorantly assumed that he was from a PH lodge based on the color of his skin.

This is unfortunate. We in florida do not "recognize" prince hall but i would accept anyone into the lodge to chat and enjoy a meal up to the tilers station where he would be stopped as i would enter a tiled meeting.

I can definitely see some brothers giving the cold shoulder to a man of color or a Prince Hall Member. Mostly the older brothers whom are old school and have set their ways. 

Ive witnessed in while in a local lodge, a dark skinned brother came in with papers. He looked to be african american. I knew he was not because i could tell he was puertorican. In puerto rico there are very dark skinned people , most of them live on the farms or as they call it "the compo" 

I took his papers and read them "since they were in spanish" and it basically said "this brother was a member of a REGULAR lodge recognized by the UGLE and should have the right be accepted into any REGULAR lodge in the USA. 

After i read that , they went to work. Gave him a petition and i don't know what happened from there. I went back to the kitchen to continue cooking for the meal.


----------



## Brother JC (Aug 31, 2014)

I'm in three AF&AM lodges and one F&AM. But that's why I asked about his GLs; not everyone out there is recognized.


----------



## Levelhead (Aug 31, 2014)

I figured they were all the same. I think it was more of a prince hall assumption that the above brother encountered. But even at that, anyone is welcome to enter a lodge and conversant no matter of color, race ect.

A tiled meeting is a different story.


----------



## dfreybur (Sep 1, 2014)

The letter thing has little meaning as others have posted.  What matters is whether your jurisdiction is clandestine and whether either of those lodges are clandestine.  It is completely possible to take your degrees in a clandestine lodge and not be told that.  Plenty of good men petition clandestine lodges having no idea that's what they are doing.  Many only find out by trying to attend a valid lodge and being rejected.

I can't say for sure what happened and why but "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately ascribed to ignorance".  You don't list your jurisdiction in your profile so we don't know if you're a step brother not aware of the fact, if you attempted to attend a lodge of step brothers not aware of the fact, or if something wrong happened.  Because of my quoted saying I'll ask what your jurisdiction is first - It's not listed in your profile or signature.

If your lodge is clandestine you were screwed and likely your sponsor didn't even know.  It's quite easy to tell these days, though.

Lists regular and recognized jurisdictions - http://www.ugle.org.uk/about/foreign-grand-lodges

Lists regular PHA jurisdictions most but not all of which are recognized - http://www.conferenceofgrandmasterspha.org/gjlinks.asp

Partial list of clandestine jurisdictions - http://thephylaxis.org/bogus/bogusgrandlodges.php


----------



## Freeborn (Sep 2, 2014)

Bro. There are lodges that keep a tight hold on their internal doings, true masons are taught to be on the level but all lodges don't treat all bros the same


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


----------



## dfreybur (Sep 3, 2014)

Levelhead said:


> ... F & AM - Free and Accepted Masons ... All Prince Hall lodges are also F. & A.M ...



Is that correct?  That all regular jurisdictions recognized by the Conference of Grand Masters Prince Hall Masons Inc use F&AM?

http://www.conferenceofgrandmasterspha.org/gjlinks.asp

If so that would explain the endless discussions of "three letter versus four letter" that never seem to make sense in a general Masonic context.  Outside of the PHA branch of our family the number of letters doesn't matter and doesn't make sense.  Within the PHA branch of our family is the number of letters a quick shorthand to check if a jurisdiction is regular or clandestine?  Sort of like having any sort of qualifier in the name like St John is a shorthand to ensure a jurisdiction is clandestine (once you've memorized the two exceptions Florida-Union and Mississippi-Stringer)?


----------



## Mosaic (Sep 3, 2014)

BroPrince said:


> The lack of love you get from brothers outside your lodge??
> 
> One thing i loved about becoming a Mason was the amount of guys I get to call my brothers after being initiated.
> 
> ...



What is your lodge name and number and what Grand Lodge is it under?

That'll help us help you figure out the exact reason behind your situation.


----------



## Bill Lins (Sep 3, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> Within the PHA branch of our family is the number of letters a quick shorthand to check if a jurisdiction is regular or clandestine?


Yes. All PHA Grand Lodges are F&AM.


----------



## MarkR (Sep 4, 2014)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this is not about a "mainstream" AF&AM lodge member trying to visit and being mistaken for PHA.  I would be willing to bet that his AF&AM is an irregular Grand Lodge, and the brethren in the Lodge he tried to visit figured that out and showed him the door, as their obligations require.  I fear that he doesn't know that he's joined a "clandestine" lodge.


----------



## bupton52 (Sep 4, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> Is that correct?  That all regular jurisdictions recognized by the Conference of Grand Masters Prince Hall Masons Inc use F&AM?
> 
> http://www.conferenceofgrandmasterspha.org/gjlinks.asp
> 
> If so that would explain the endless discussions of "three letter versus four letter" that never seem to make sense in a general Masonic context.  Outside of the PHA branch of our family the number of letters doesn't matter and doesn't make sense.  Within the PHA branch of our family is the number of letters a quick shorthand to check if a jurisdiction is regular or clandestine?  Sort of like having any sort of qualifier in the name like St John is a shorthand to ensure a jurisdiction is clandestine (once you've memorized the two exceptions Florida-Union and Mississippi-Stringer)?



That is correct, except for the PHGL of Liberia. They are A.F & A.M


----------



## MaineMason (Sep 4, 2014)

Where I live, in Maine, the Grand Lodge of Maine recognizes Prince Hall Masons. In fact, I was my lodge's proxy to the Grand Lodge annual Communication and there was a (small) Prince Hall presence. 

My AF&AM Blue Lodge has an African American member, I helped raise him. A local WM is gay. Up here, we have a small Prince Hall presence because the AF&AM lodges will admit any man of good character regardless of race or sexual orientation. 

I'm sorry you're running up against this kind of exclusion.


----------



## Bill Lins (Sep 5, 2014)

bupton52 said:


> That is correct, except for the PHGL of Liberia. They are A.F & A.M


I stand corrected- thanks, Bro. Byron!


----------



## dfreybur (Sep 5, 2014)

bupton52 said:


> That is correct, except for the PHGL of Liberia. They are A.F & A.M



Thanks brethren!  This sheds new light on the "three letter versus four letter" comments that appear now and then.  The four letter ones with that noted exception claim to be a part of the Prince Hall lineage but actually aren't.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Sep 8, 2014)

MarkR said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this is not about a "mainstream" AF&AM lodge member trying to visit and being mistaken for PHA.  I would be willing to bet that his AF&AM is an irregular Grand Lodge, and the brethren in the Lodge he tried to visit figured that out and showed him the door, as their obligations require.  I fear that he doesn't know that he's joined a "clandestine" lodge.


I truly hope that this is the case and he was not kept out because of the color of his skin. That sort of thing is not what Masonry is about.


----------



## LONDONSQUARE (Sep 9, 2014)

Greeting brothers, i think many of us are missing what is truly the issue. Mark R stated earlier that this fellow most likely belonged to a clandestine lodge. In the african american community their exists Prince Hall Affiliated masons and then their are those who think of themselves as masons and create self styled grand lodges using the words AF.AM OR F.AM which ever they feel more inclined to. These lodges are not under the auspices of a MAINSTREAM grand lodge nor under that the auspices of a PRINCE HALL grand lodge whose lineage both is traced back to the UGLE . These organisations are very dangerous and deceive many good men from the door of legitimate lodges. The Phylaxis society is a premier Prince Hall research group that has many interesting articles on this issue. below is the link.

http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/bogusgrandlodges.php

South Fulton Lodge no.598  P.H.A
MWPHGLGA


----------



## Jeff Thomas (Mar 11, 2020)

BroPrince said:


> The lack of love you get from brothers outside your lodge??
> 
> One thing i loved about becoming a Mason was the amount of guys I get to call my brothers after being initiated.
> 
> ...




Unfortunately after doing some further research Black AF&AM lodges (as well as Internal Free Mason's who symbol has a key underneath the square) are considered clandestine. That is probably why you were treated that way. Which is sad because there is a large number of the lodges like these in existence with brothers/Sisters who honorably practice the craft and would love to connect with other members especially those that look like them.


----------



## Thomas Stright (Mar 11, 2020)

BroPrince said:


> I've *been a Mason for 3 months* and i love my Masonic journey but so far I have not seen the fraternal aspect of it.



A MM for 3 months or a EA?

EA's and FC's shouldn't travel by themselves....Wait until your a MM.


----------



## Mark Stockdale (Mar 12, 2020)

I traveled to America last year and had intended to visit a Prince Hall lodge, but when I submitted my request to Grand Lodge of Scotland, I was informed that they were not in Amity with MWPHGLDC so could not visit any of their lodges at that time. At the time I was told there were a few that had the same issue in other states, this reminded me that I will need to check for next year as we are heading back to Atlanta for our son's graduation. I believe there are still one or 2 states where GLoS are not in amity with the regular Grand Lodges either, which makes traveling interesting.

I did manage to visit Federal Lodge #1 in DC and was warmly welcomed after being tested.


----------



## Tylerl90 (Mar 12, 2020)

Speaking of clandestine lodges, I’ve always wondered... Do the individual grand lodges have any recourse to remove these bogus lodges? No legal options for illegitimately claiming to be Masons?


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## Elexir (Mar 12, 2020)

Tylerl90 said:


> Speaking of clandestine lodges, I’ve always wondered... Do the individual grand lodges have any recourse to remove these bogus lodges? No legal options for illegitimately claiming to be Masons?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app



Considering that the whole situation regarding irregular and recognised etc. there isnt really anything that should be done.
If its something that freemasons should avoid its getting the civil courts involved in these things...


----------



## Tylerl90 (Mar 12, 2020)

Elexir said:


> Considering that the whole situation regarding irregular and recognised etc. there isnt really anything that should be done.
> If its something that freemasons should avoid its getting the civil courts involved in these things...



Not just civil courts. That’s just an example. Any recourse at all??


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


----------



## Elexir (Mar 12, 2020)

Tylerl90 said:


> Not just civil courts. That’s just an example. Any recourse at all??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app



The only way that it can be done is to involve courts and chage laws if needed. There is honestly no other way as any other solution can be enforced in any way.


----------



## Glen Cook (Mar 12, 2020)

Thomas Stright said:


> A MM for 3 months or a EA?
> 
> EA's and FC's shouldn't travel by themselves....Wait until your a MM.


That’s very much dependent on the jurisdiction.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Mar 25, 2020)

Elexir said:


> If its something that freemasons should avoid its getting the civil courts involved in these things...


Absolutely! Inviting the government into your personal business show always be avoided as long as you have other options.


----------

