# Christ or the Lodge? A Report on Freemasonry



## Blake Bowden (Feb 4, 2013)

Thoughts?

http://opc.org/GA/masonry.html


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## sands67 (Feb 5, 2013)

The page is gone the link was pointing to


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## Daniel Mosmeyer (Feb 5, 2013)

I just got to it......


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 5, 2013)

Given that the loudest voices within Freemasonry sometimes seem to be those who appear to promulgate Freemasonry as some sort of a "Hermetic" or Gnostic religion or stand-in for religion, I am not surprised at their conclusion.


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## Brent Heilman (Feb 5, 2013)

As with many other religious institutions something they do not understand becomes something that is against what they stand for. Not knowing all that Masonry encompasses and trying to ascertain the nature of the Fraternity from a few passages from the innumerable works that have been written is disingenuous at best. I would be similar to me trying to write about their religion by taking only a few selections written over their religion and deeming them anti-Christian because they don't agree with my view of Christianity.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 6, 2013)

The works they cited weren't chosen at random but were from writers suck as Ward, Mackey, and Haywood. Who provides as well-known and readily-available counter-interpretations? I don't mean defenses against accusations, but interpretations of Freemasonic symbology that actually are easily in accord with more orthodox Christian beliefs. Even on this board there are masons who put a very Hermetic/Gnostic spin upon everything, as if that was the "true" meaning of Freemasonry.


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## otherstar (Feb 6, 2013)

BryanMaloney said:


> The works they cited weren't chosen at random but were from writers suck as Ward, Mackey, and Haywood. Who provides as well-known and readily-available counter-interpretations? I don't mean defenses against accusations, but interpretations of Freemasonic symbology that actually are easily in accord with more orthodox Christian beliefs. Even on this board there are masons who put a very Hermetic/Gnostic spin upon everything, as if that was the "true" meaning of Freemasonry.



That's a real problem with these kinds of reports. You can find all kinds of interpretations of Masonic symbolism in published works and cite them as "authoritative" and wind up with skewed results. The only true "authoritative" sources for Masonic teachings are the Monitor for the Grand Lodge, and the rituals performed within the tyled confines of a Lodge. Any other source is just one brothers opinion/thoughts/reflection about what those symbols and rituals mean.


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## crono782 (Feb 6, 2013)

> That's a real problem with these kinds of reports. You can find all kinds of interpretations of Masonic symbolism in published works and cite them as "authoritative" and wind up with skewed results. The only true "authoritative" sources for Masonic teachings are the Monitor for the Grand Lodge, and the rituals performed within the tyled confines of a Lodge. Any other source is just one brothers opinion/thoughts/reflection about what those symbols and rituals mean.



Indeed. Kinda like reading a book where someone talks *about* Christianity and the Bible and taking that as biblical doctrine rather than taking it from the Bible itself.


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## jwhoff (Feb 6, 2013)

crono782 said:


> Indeed. Kinda like reading a book where someone talks *about* Christianity and the Bible and taking that as biblical doctrine rather than taking it from the Bible itself.



I sure hope these zealots leave stake-burning, witch-hunting, and just plain out and out slaughter in the name of God off their doctrine list.  

And, though I don't ascribe to all their ideas, I have no rub personally with the brothers who taunt Hermetic and Gnostic views.  One an ancient pagan religion and the other the losing slant on Christianity before the Romans shaped the faith into their military hierarchical format.  Remember, those who espouse Christian beliefs have no more claim to masonry than  do the other two Sons of Abraham.  Or Hinduism nor Budism, for that matter.

Might be a good time to also remember Jesus didn't fair well with the established faith either.  Seems to me he favored tax collectors and smelly fishermen over their likes.  Ask yourself, just how would Jesus fair with the current Christian hierarchy?  Now that, my brother, is a topic worth your efforts.


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## widows son (Feb 6, 2013)

IMO I'd like to think the roots of the modern freemasonry we enjoy today and back to 1717 were made to enhance the Christian mans experience. when It comes to the hermeticism aspect I think that is there for mason to enjoy who encompasses all faiths. The symbols are rooted back in time with multiple layers of meaning. I don't think it should be dismissed right away, after all the great Masonic authors believed that masonry accents a mans life even if he's not a Christian. But i also realize that they're not a designated authority, jut a lot of brothers agree with them. I truly believe masonry to be much more than that. I believe the words of Hall, Mackey, McCoy, Pike, And the like. These guys dedicated a lot of time and effort into the craft, and I don't think it would be fair to us and those great men who came to the conclusions about the craft. An open mind can cause great things to happen.


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## Trufflehound (Feb 6, 2013)

BryanMaloney said:


> The works they cited weren't chosen at random but were from writers suck as Ward, Mackey, and Haywood. Who provides as well-known and readily-available counter-interpretations? I don't mean defenses against accusations, but interpretations of Freemasonic symbology that actually are easily in accord with more orthodox Christian beliefs. Even on this board there are masons who put a very Hermetic/Gnostic spin upon everything, as if that was the "true" meaning of Freemasonry.


A Pilgrim's Path by John Robinson pretty much refutes every conclusion that they have jumped to; it's just not well known.

Anything left over that Brother Robinson doesn't address could have been taken care of if the authors of that paper hadn't cherry-picked all their information.  For every Masonic author they cited, there are just as many that have a differing point of view.

Masonry is different to each person -- it means something different to each Brother.  And when it is widely known and accepted that no one person or body can speak for the whole of Masonry, how could one ever pin it down or label it?


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## RedTemplar (Feb 6, 2013)

Freemasonry teaches me that it cannot conflict with the duties I owe to my God.  So. "Come and let us and reason together". I will hopefully choose to keep those things which are good.


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## scialytic (Feb 6, 2013)

I must say...in 1942, I would have been focusing on real issues in the world...like in... ...I don't know... ... ...New Zealand, or something. Wasn't there something big going on there in 1942?


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 7, 2013)

Trufflehound said:


> A Pilgrim's Path by John Robinson pretty much refutes every conclusion that they have jumped to; it's just not well known.
> 
> Anything left over that Brother Robinson doesn't address could have been taken care of if the authors of that paper hadn't cherry-picked all their information.  For every Masonic author they cited, there are just as many that have a differing point of view.




And how many of those other works are as well known? Why aren't they as well known? Where is the great, landscape-striding Masonic author of the status and held in the reverence that Masons hold Mackey? Who has dared write the book by a Mason to Masons to say "These titans of the 19th century were full of it."?



> And when it is widely known and accepted that no one person or body can speak for the whole of Masonry, how could one ever pin it down or label it?



Widely known and accepted to whom?


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 7, 2013)

otherstar said:


> That's a real problem with these kinds of reports. You can find all kinds of interpretations of Masonic symbolism in published works and cite them as "authoritative" and wind up with skewed results. The only true "authoritative" sources for Masonic teachings are the Monitor for the Grand Lodge, and the rituals performed within the tyled confines of a Lodge. Any other source is just one brothers opinion/thoughts/reflection about what those symbols and rituals mean.



And these Monitors are as heavily published and publicized as Mackey? The authors they chose are deemed to be important and influential by Masons. Where is the Masonic book "Mackey was full of it.", written by a senior Master Mason?


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 7, 2013)

jwhoff;92734
And said:
			
		

> Hermetic and Gnostic views.  One an ancient pagan religion and the other the losing slant on Christianity before the Romans shaped the faith into their military hierarchical format.


 
You do realize that your extremely one-sided view of the history of Christianity is subject to the exact same criticisms you mount against the OEC's report, don't you?



> Remember, those who espouse Christian beliefs have no more claim to masonry than  do the other two Sons of Abraham.  Or Hinduism nor Budism, for that matter.



Your point being? Where are the books that, in loving detail, outline these parallelisms, then? Why do they not routinely appear in elegant editions from Macoy Publishing? Freemasons have allowed a vocal minority to dominate the narrative.



> Might be a good time to also remember Jesus didn't fair well with the established faith either.  Seems to me he favored tax collectors and smelly fishermen over their likes.  Ask yourself, just how would Jesus fair with the current Christian hierarchy?  Now that, my brother, is a topic worth your efforts.  [/COLOR]



Tell me who "the current Christian hierarchy", as a SINGLE, UNITARY ADMINISTRATIVE BODY, is, and I could answer that. Pulling out the old "Christ would have been killed by modern Christians." argument is a great way to just duck and hide.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 7, 2013)

widows son said:


> IMO I'd like to think the roots of the modern freemasonry we enjoy today and back to 1717 were made to enhance the Christian mans experience. when It comes to the hermeticism aspect I think that is there for mason to enjoy who encompasses all faiths. The symbols are rooted back in time with multiple layers of meaning.


 
What is a lamp?
A symbol of light.

We can pretty much all agree on that.

What is the "actual" light symbolized?
This is where the disagreements can lie, and I prefer to think that Freemasonry leaves that up to each one of us. But the problem arises when someone takes that freedom and uses it as license to impose his own personal tastes as a "Masonic Mystery" or "Esoteric Masonic Lesson", etc, instead of saying "That's something for outside the Fraternity, here we remind each other to look to the light." Thus, instead of speaking man-to-man on the issue, some Masons write enormous volumes that purport to "instruct" on "Masonic meanings" but actually only instruct on the author's personal beliefs.




> I don't think it should be dismissed right away,


 
What I "dismiss" is the disparity in the Masonic literature. The Hermeticists and Gnostics have very loud voices that are sold in deluxe editions by obviously Masonic-related businesses (like Macoy's really great web site). The rest of us, the boring old Trinitarian Christians, Conservative and Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc., not so much. However, the responsibility is upon the shoulders of us members of the drab, pedestrian faiths to do the Work, gain the Degrees, get the respect, and write the books.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 7, 2013)

scialytic said:


> I must say...in 1942, I would have been focusing on real issues in the world...like in... ...I don't know... ... ...New Zealand, or something. Wasn't there something big going on there in 1942?



No, there was some obnoxious guy from Australia making a lot of trouble. What was his name? Adolph Lundgren? Yeah, that's it, he was an Australian who moved to Germany and caused a lot of trouble, then he became an actor.


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## jwhoff (Feb 7, 2013)

Pretty sure you are right brother Bryan.  We DO NOT share religious views. 

My point exactly.  I again state that Christians, of which I am one (despite agreeing little with you), have no particular hold on free masonry.  

I leave your quarrel with these other brethren.

Again, trying to change a man's personal beliefs is the better part of worthless.  Pearls and Swine, if you will?


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## Brent Heilman (Feb 7, 2013)

BryanMaloney said:


> What is a lamp?
> A symbol of light.
> 
> We can pretty much all agree on that.
> ...



What it all boils down to is that in Masonry the symbols used are up to the individual to interpret on their own. You interpretation of one may not be how I interpret it. That is the beauty of our Art. Neither is wrong nor is my view more "right" than yours. The books that are written that you refer to are the author's views and none other than that. You are free to reject their views if you want, but just because you see it different doesn't mean they are wrong either. What I gather from what you are saying in that they take their belief "and uses it as a license to impose his own personal tastes" doesn't sit well with you, yet right before that you say that the choice of interpretation is up to us. All these authors have done is put their thoughts down on paper in the form of a book. Not a single author claims that he is the Masonic authority and what he writes is the truth and there can be no others.


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## otherstar (Feb 7, 2013)

BryanMaloney said:


> And these Monitors are as heavily published and publicized as Mackey? The authors they chose are deemed to be important and influential by Masons. Where is the Masonic book "Mackey was full of it.", written by a senior Master Mason?




I am attempting to uphold the point of view that there is no one authority in Freemasonry outside of the Grand Lodge. No author can claim to interpret the symbols of Freemasonry for another and set himself up as a "Masonic authority." To claim otherwise is to run counter to the aims of our great Fraternity. I could just as easily ask who wrote the book that said "Mackey has the last word on the teachings of Freemasonry."

Mackey wrote a monitor. There are many monitors available if one takes the time to look. I would hope that a committee doing research like that would take the time to research the topic properly.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 7, 2013)

Brent Heilman said:


> What it all boils down to is that in Masonry the symbols used are up to the individual to interpret on their own. You interpretation of one may not be how I interpret it. That is the beauty of our Art. Neither is wrong nor is my view more "right" than yours. The books that are written that you refer to are the author's views and none other than that.


 
Except that these books are often not presented as such--even by Masons. Instead of being described as "works of mere personal opinion", they are considered landmarks in Masonic philosophy. Where is the "My fellow Masons, Mackey is full of it." book?


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## widows son (Feb 7, 2013)

I don't think that any of the hermeticism is outside of the craft. When someone writes a volume as big as the ones masonry enjoys I wouldn't necessarily point it to just one brothers opinion. Of course your are right in saying that, but also remember that the majority of these men all say roughly the same thing. Also to say that it's up to the "pedestrian" faiths to perpetuate these works is crockery. Many of the great Masonic authors were Christian, but also avid deists. Manly p hall, probably the most influential Masonic author was a deist.Same with pike. No doubt that a Christian mason can equally if not more contribute light to the craft.  But these men have traversed the world in some cases, I don't think their words can just be swept under the rug. JMO


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## widows son (Feb 7, 2013)

I'm not one to tell anyone how to interpret masonry but how exactly is Mackey full of it?


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## Mac (Feb 7, 2013)

I believe the point the brother is making is that this document cited Mackey (and other high profile masonic authors) who declare, very clearly, that Freemasonry is a religion.  I remember my eyebrows raising the first time I read it in the weathered yellow pages of my collection.  

Where is the book that takes these statements and says "Brother Mackey was a bit overzealous in that statement," or at least, "What I think he was trying to say was..."?

Or more in general, "despite some historic assertions to the contrary, Freemasonry is NOT a religion."

(Of course, there's another discussion about Religion versus religion)


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 8, 2013)

widows son said:


> I don't think that any of the hermeticism is outside of the craft. When someone writes a volume as big as the ones masonry enjoys I wouldn't necessarily point it to just one brothers opinion. Of course your are right in saying that, but also remember that the majority of these men all say roughly the same thing.


 
Therefore, as a Mason, you say that Freemasonry DOES promulgate Hermeticism. That's the take-home message of what you wrote.



> Also to say that it's up to the "pedestrian" faiths to perpetuate these works is crockery.



You don't actually read what I write, do you? What I wrote is that it is up to us of the more mainstream faiths to write such works that give the "mainstream faith" interpretations of Masonic symbolism.



> Many of the great Masonic authors were Christian, but also avid deists. Manly p hall, probably the most influential Masonic author was a deist.Same with pike. No doubt that a Christian mason can equally if not more contribute light to the craft.  But these men have traversed the world in some cases, I don't think their words can just be swept under the rug. JMO



Therefore, you are saying that Freemasons should adopt Hermeticism and Gnosticism as inherent to Masonry--that's the take-home message of what you wrote.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 8, 2013)

Mac said:


> I believe the point the brother is making is that this document cited Mackey (and other high profile masonic authors) who declare, very clearly, that Freemasonry is a religion.  I remember my eyebrows raising the first time I read it in the weathered yellow pages of my collection.
> 
> Where is the book that takes these statements and says "Brother Mackey was a bit overzealous in that statement," or at least, "What I think he was trying to say was..."?



Thank you for actually reading what I wrote.


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## Brent Heilman (Feb 8, 2013)

Do we really need this is opinion because no one speaks for all of Freemasonry to be printed in every book or written in every preface? I thought that everyone knew that already. Besides it wouldn't really matter if it was in the front of every book. Look at Pike who is referenced all the time, who wrote in the front of "Morals and Dogmas" this is my opinion take what you will from it and reject the parts that you don't agree with. The point is that to us, as Freemasons, we know that there is no one person that speaks for all of Freemasonry so why should we need it in print in the front of every book? This was the point I was trying to make.


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## jwhoff (Feb 8, 2013)

widows son said:


> Also to say that it's up to the "pedestrian" faiths to perpetuate these works is crockery. Many of the great Masonic authors were Christian, but also avid deists. Manly p hall, probably the most influential Masonic author was a deist.Same with pike. No doubt that a Christian mason can equally if not more contribute light to the craft.  But these men have traversed the world in some cases, I don't think their words can just be swept under the rug. JMO



Bingo!  

Masonry requires that each man believe in deity.  A maker! STOP!  

The triangle (nay, Golden Rule) of:
   There is a maker who made you
   You have a soul connecting you to that maker
   That the maker who made you made all mankind and, therefore, you have a binding tie with all mankind.

Where does that tell us that any one of the monotheistic religions has a personal claim on masonry.  

Especially if you are open-minded enough to delve into the underlying tenets of those monotheistic religions and discover their all to similar beliefs.

I believe we have a bigger question here.  
*
The human instinct of judging our peers.  All to easy to follow, and all to difficult to defeat. *

Who on this side of the compasses has the audacity of thinking he knows the maker's will?  How could you possible get there looking through the eyes of the material world.

As a Christian I do believe that the _promise_ was fulfilled at the cross for me and my relations: all mankind.  If a man is honorable and keeps to the teachings of the Golden Rule, who among us can judge his faith?  

Oh! please let me preference the above statement with a quick:  this is my opinion only and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of masonry as a whole.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 9, 2013)

Brent Heilman said:


> Do we really need this is opinion because no one speaks for all of Freemasonry to be printed in every book or written in every preface? I thought that everyone knew that already.


 
The vast majority of people do not know this. Once of the reasons they do not know this is that respected Masonic-related outlets, such as Macoy's use language such as "Has been used as an authority by American Grand Lodges and Lodges for more than half a century. Recognized by civil courts as the authoritative statement of Masonic rules and regulations... Every Lodge and Lodge officer needs a copy at hand for quick reference."

When referring to Mackeys _Textbook_, which is one of the Masonic works cited by the OEC essay. Do you get what that means? Now, you can retreat into a dogmatic "It's not my problem if 99.99999999999999999999% of humanity are a pack of filthy idiots", but that only adds to the problem. Sitting up in an ivory tower and denouncing ignorance without supplying an antidote is a luxury only affordable by the powerful and privileged. 



> as Freemasons, we know that there is no one person that speaks for all of Freemasonry so why should we need it in print in the front of every book? This was the point I was trying to make.



Specifically quote where I demanded that. I would like to see that quote.

My point has been that many of the works held up BY Freemasons TO Freemasons as normative, REGARDLESS OF WHAT OFFICIAL POLICY IS, are full of this stuff, and there appear to be no such books _routinely_ held up BY Freemasons TO Freemasons as normative that don't. Blindly shouting "Monitor!" over and over is not a solution to this. Can I go to any old bookseller and get a copy of the Texas Monitor? For that matter, if I want to get just one or two books to "clue me in", having to get 51 monitors just for the USA is a recipe for failure.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 9, 2013)

jwhoff said:


> Bingo!
> 
> Masonry requires that each man believe in deity.  A maker! STOP!



Therefore, WE SHOULD URGE EVERYONE TO IGNORE THE HERMETICISTS AND GNOSTICS, TOO!  After all, if it is INHERENTLY WRONG for a conventional Trinitarian Christian to write a book that explicates Fremasonry from the standpoint of his own Church, it is EQUALLY wrong for the Gnostics and the Hermeticists.



> Where does that tell us that any one of the monotheistic religions has a personal claim on masonry.


 
Quote, specifically and directly, where I have made any such claim. I lay down the gauntlet. You won't have the guts to pick it up. 



> Especially if you are open-minded enough to delve into the underlying tenets of those monotheistic religions and discover their all to similar beliefs.



And, of course, according to your omniscient dogmas, the explanations of these similarities acceptable to the individual religions in question are and must be wrong.



> As a Christian I do believe that the _promise_ was fulfilled at the cross for me and my relations: all mankind.  If a man is honorable and keeps to the teachings of the Golden Rule, who among us can judge his faith?



Someone questions whether or not Hermetic or Gnostic interpretations are the only correct interpretation for Freemasonry, and the response is to scream "INTOLERANCE!"

Why is it right to deny that conventional Trinitarian Christianity is a correct basis to interpret Freemasonry and wrong to deny that Hermeticism/Gnosticism is correct?


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## otherstar (Feb 9, 2013)

BryanMaloney said:


> Why is it right to deny that conventional Trinitarian Christianity is a correct basis to interpret Freemasonry and wrong to deny that Hermeticism/Gnosticism is correct?



Could it be possible that neither basis is "correct" universally?


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## jwhoff (Feb 9, 2013)

_Quote, Where does that tell us that any one of the monotheistic religions has a personal claim on masonry.quote.--*jwhoff*
_
Quote, specifically and directly, where I have made any such claim. I lay down the gauntlet. You won't have the guts to pick it up.Quote.--_*Maloney*_


I wasn't aware of any monotheistic religions becoming involved in this discussion. Is there anyone here so qualified?

My guts have little to do with your apparent, self-imposed gauntlet brother.  Your posts to the group's comments appear to grow more personal, and in an angry tone.  Why are we not entitled to our viewpoints without being subjected to this apparent rancor?

Sounds like the topic should be closed.  Are you willing to part with all in peace?


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Feb 9, 2013)

*Gentlemen & Brethren:

At this point I believe that it is fair for me to remind you all (the participants in this discussion) that Debate should be conducted in a non emotional or personal manner. Debates are to be factual in nature, and should be properly cited.

It is common for politics and religion to be debated, both are also naturally very personal subjects. There is a reason that both subjects are discouraged in Masonic Lodges.


Please take this break in discussion and reminder as a Warning to stay on topic and within proper debate form. Thanks!*


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## cog41 (Feb 9, 2013)

Thank you brother Blake for posting the report.

I found it interesting and well written. The committee members specifically mention three books for "further" reference. I take this to mean they actually read more than a few pages from the other works they cited.
Did they read the entire works they cite? We may never know but I doubt it. 
Would it have made a difference in their conclusion? I doubt that as well.

I have read a great deal of anti masonic material, most from independent ministries or individuals claiming to be former masons. Most usually cite the works of individual masons and rarely quote from a monitor issued or endorsed by a Grand Lodge.
Personally I suggest to the curious non mason to find and read a monitor/manual for a general understanding of freemasonry and follow that by spending time with a mason(s) that will sit down and give open and honest answers about the lodge. 

I do notice however, many brethren take the anti-masonic material a little too personal, especially if it comes from a Christian organization. I would remind my brethren that Christian faiths are not the only groups who dislike freemasonry. 
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/34576 , http://missionislam.com/nwo/invasion.htm , http://feemasonry.freemasonry.com/layiktezl.html

Relax brethren. If these reports, summaries, and books do anything it should be they make us examine ourselves. What do we believe? Where do we stand and why? 

Brother Blake started the thread with "Christ or the Lodge?"

If one or the other , I do and shall always choose Jesus Christ my Lord.
I am an Evangelical Christian. I adhere to a Reformed Theology and I'm an active member of a conservative Southern Baptist Church. I believe there is only One Way to heaven. *I make no apologies for these things and I make no apology for being a Freemason*.

I attend a lodge where even the visiting brethren acting as chaplin usually open and close in the name of Jesus. No one has ever objected. Please don't visit just to be the first! I've also heard the opening and closing without His name and no one objected. Didn't hurt my feelings either.

I've posted here before that I practice my "own brand of Masonry". I borrowed that from another brother on this forum but I can't remember who it was. I view freemasonry from a judeo-Christian perspective. I would gladly share my views with any brother or any one else for that matter. I dare say each of us practice the Craft differently. Each day we work differently. We are each very different yet we all began the masonic journey the same way and of our own Free Will and Accord. 

I say all this because I agree with brother Stewart. This thread has had some contentious moments and itis VERY clear why these thing are left outside the lodge. Even then brethren we should show common courtesy and respect for each others beliefs. Tolerence doesn't mean you accept their beliefs but you are willing to defend his right to believe differently. He is afterall a masonic brother. *If *we feel the need, ask to discuss these things or simply *leave* *it be.

*Now I'm starting to ramble so I'll quit.
God Bless ya.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 10, 2013)

otherstar said:


> Could it be possible that neither basis is "correct" universally?



Your point being? Why is it right to deny that conventional Trinitarian Christianity is a correct basis to interpret Freemasonry and wrong to deny that Hermeticism/Gnosticism is correct


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## Michael Neumann (Feb 10, 2013)

OK, so I read the write up at http://opc.org/GA/masonry.html and recognized a few books they cited from my personal shelf. Then I read all 4 pages of this thread, finding several arguments I agreed with, even Brother Maloney whose posts are insightful but tainted with an offensive flavor. I myself remember raising my eyebrows at some of the comments made by Mackey,Wilmhurst, and Pike. BUT even before masonry I believed that all religions share a common goal whether they be mainstream or but a tributary. Masonry provides men of strong and differing opinion common... level... ground upon which they can meet. Masonry is indeed, as another of our brethren pointed out, following parallel to Christianity... and unknown to Christianity it is following parallel to a number of other religions.

My wife is a minister and has her DD in Metaphysics. Her studies brought her through a variety of religions and her dissertation was on the commonality of the worldâ€™s religions. Almost every religion, at its core, seeks to build a manâ€™s character and have him walk as an upright gentleman, his back resting upon the plumb line. Christianity does it through salvation in Christ, Islam through the prophet, etc.

Each of us takes something different from masonry and that is what it was meant to do because each of us is imperfect in a different manner.

Masonry stands on its own two feet; there is no need to defend it as there is no defense necessary. When a religious zealot approaches me I simply nod and say â€œwell, everyone takes something different from masonry,if that is what you took then that is your reality and it is not my duty to change it.â€


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Feb 10, 2013)

BryanMaloney said:


> Your point being? Why is it right to deny that conventional Trinitarian Christianity is a correct basis to interpret Freemasonry and wrong to deny that Hermeticism/Gnosticism is correct



BryanMaloney, I will offer my two-cents from a dual perspective, as a Mason and as an Ordained Christian Minister (surprise to some of you). I honestly believe what otherstar is saying is that he feels that no one form of religion is the "right answer" when it comes to masonry. We Christians are no more superior than any other religion. In this case, Christianity does indeed apply to certain aspects of our fraternity; and the same is also true for several other widely accepted religious schools of thought. I do not feel in this case that the perspective of thought is meant in a Right or Wrong, Black or White answer... what we have here is most certainly Grey.



Michael Neumann said:


> OK, so I read the write up at http://opc.org/GA/masonry.html and recognized a few books they cited from my personal shelf. Then I read all 4 pages of this thread, finding several arguments I agreed with, even Brother Maloney whose posts are insightful but tainted with an offensive flavor. I myself remember raising my eyebrows at some of the comments made by Mackey,Wilmhurst, and Pike. BUT even before masonry I believed that all religions share a common goal whether they be mainstream or but a tributary. Masonry provides men of strong and differing opinion common... level... ground upon which they can meet. Masonry is indeed, as another of our brethren pointed out, following parallel to Christianity... and unknown to Christianity it is following parallel to a number of other religions.
> 
> My wife is a minister and has her DD in Metaphysics. Her studies brought her through a variety of religions and her dissertation was on the commonality of the world’s religions. Almost every religion, at its core, seeks to build a man’s character and have him walk as an upright gentleman, his back resting upon the plumb line. Christianity does it through salvation in Christ, Islam through the prophet, etc.
> 
> ...



Point very well defined Michael. Thank you for your input here!


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## otherstar (Feb 10, 2013)

BryanMaloney said:


> Your point being? Why is it right to deny that conventional Trinitarian Christianity is a correct basis to interpret Freemasonry and wrong to deny that Hermeticism/Gnosticism is correct



My point is not something I will admit in public (but it has to do with the nature of several posts of  yours that I have ignored because I found them offensive...and I AM a Christian!)

I neither affirmed nor denied that any ONE interpretation was correct OTHER THAN the interpretation of the individual Mason, and that NO ONE AUTHORITY had the right to claim that their interpretation is correct for any other Mason.

That being said, this is my LAST post on this topic because I wish to follow the advice of Bro. Stewart above.

God Bless.

EDIT: After reading Bro. Stewart's response above, he gets my point perfectly. Thank you Brother!


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## Traveling Man (Feb 10, 2013)

otherstar said:


> After reading Bro. Stewart's response above, he gets my point perfectly. Thank you Brother!



So do I, well said!


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Feb 10, 2013)

otherstar said:


> After reading Bro. Stewart's response above, he gets my point perfectly. Thank you Brother!





Traveling Man said:


> So do I, well said!



You are both welcome!


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## jwhoff (Feb 10, 2013)

Brother Stewart.

Not really surprised that you are an ordained minister.  You posts are always very thoughtful and meaningfully deep.

We're all well served to have your knowledge and advise on this website.


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## widows son (Feb 12, 2013)

Yes Bryan I'm saying masonry should-and does promulgate hermeticism, and Gnosticism. And my apologies for the misinterpretation.


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## widows son (Feb 12, 2013)

I also don't think these guys promote masonry as a religion either. What we do in the lodge is meant to be a way to live your mortal life. Hermeticism and Gnosticism included. I'm sure somewhere in the world, some brothers do take masonry as a religion, if your looking at it as a way of life. But to dismiss these ancient philosophies would be no different than a person of one faith dismissing another when all have the truth in them. Masonry being allegorical adopts those viewpoints because they too are allegorical. I believe that is the key to interpreting the hermeticism et al.

I also think that the following statement from the "investigation" is a crockery.  " Is Masonry a religious order, or is it not? That is the crucial question. If it should prove that the answer to this question must be affirmative, then the further question, no less crucial than the first, will arise, what the religion of Masonry is. If it is anything but Christianity, the religion of Masonry is necessarily false, for it is axiomatic that Christianity is the only true religion. And in that case no Christian may have communication with Masonry. " On what authority is Christianity the one true religion? And what do you tell your Muslim brother, or Jewish brother? I think that's a terrible attitude to bring in the lodge and also presented to your neighbor etc. the esoterica involved in masonry is also a personal growth, with many philosophical truths in them. One just needs to look and study.

So in the end if masonry is open to all beliefs philosophies and faiths then yes, that is "my take home message"


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 14, 2013)

Either Christ is or is not the Divine Logos and the sole Mediator. Either Christ is or is not the Way, the Truth, and the Life. If you demand that Christian masons reject this, you demand they abandon Christianity or Freemasonry. That you cannot understand how someone can believe this and still meet as brothers with those who do not believe this does not mean it is impossible. It only means your understanding is not as all-encompassing as you like to think it is.


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## widows son (Feb 14, 2013)

I don't believe any of that Bryan, i would never expect any christian mason to have to choose. Where has any masonic author, or myself said that at any time? You're shooting words in my mouth. Freemasonry allows any mason to pursue any theology or philosophy that his heart desires, as long as the supreme being is present, which on hermeticism et al, it is. I can easily say that your understanding isn't all encompassing at all.  I'm at least open to all philosophical and theological stand points, which makes for a good foundation for understanding, and paves the way for tolerance. You however are black and white, and in philosophy and theology there is no such thing.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Feb 15, 2013)

widows son said:


> Freemasonry allows any mason to pursue any theology or philosophy that his heart desires, as long as the supreme being is present, ...



Exactly! Enough said.


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## Mac (Feb 16, 2013)

Back to the original point of conversation, though:

Why would a church be wary of Freemasonry?  The books available at the time of writing the original church document included Mackey, Pike, Hall, etc.  Without the internet, I assume they were limited to what was able to found in libraries and library systems in their local area (with limited reach to a wider area).  Some mystical, some very textbook, but several decreeing the fraternity to be a religion.

Contrast that with today, when there is a growing segment of the organization that is promulgating a hermetic/gnostic ideology as being THE ideology of Freemasonry, I could see a church eyeing us with suspicion.  How many new books have been published (without a good editor, I might add :1: ) in the last few years on hermetic ideas within the craft?  

But perhaps the crux of the entire debate is:  what came you here to do?  What do we, as Freemasons, really do?  I've been pondering this question a lot lately, and I still have not settled on a solid answer. 

Fraternity?  You can find that in other fraternal groups.

Fundraising/civic involvement?  See above.

Philosophy?  Well... how much philosophical discussion do you have in your Lodge?  And is it possible to discuss philosophy without being forcefed the idea that we are an order originally composed of alchemists?

Self-Improvement?  What do we do to foster that self-improvement in our Lodges, that isn't done in other organizations?

I think when we've found a way to *encourage self-improvement as an organization*, we will be something churches recommend for men, rather than fear.  We contemplate the Lost Word, but perhaps we should ponder on why we're here to begin with.  Once you have a solid, well-defined answer, with evidence to support it, no church should fear you, your work, or the Craft.


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## BryanMaloney (Feb 18, 2013)

widows son said:


> I don't believe any of that Bryan, i would never expect any christian mason to have to choose.



Regarding the Christian doctrine that Christianity is the true religion: You openly refuse to believe that someone who believes this RELIGIOUS doctrine is able to be a proper Freemason. Do the math. You have made that very plain, very plain, indeed, multiple times. You have flatly stated that the only purpose Christianity has is control. That's black-and-white and intolerant. However, you exempt yourself from your own standards.


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## Bro_Vick (Feb 18, 2013)

Mac said:


> Back to the original point of conversation, though:
> 
> Why would a church be wary of Freemasonry?  The books available at the time of writing the original church document included Mackey, Pike, Hall, etc.  Without the internet, I assume they were limited to what was able to found in libraries and library systems in their local area (with limited reach to a wider area).  Some mystical, some very textbook, but several decreeing the fraternity to be a religion.
> 
> Contrast that with today, when there is a growing segment of the organization that is promulgating a hermetic/gnostic ideology as being THE ideology of Freemasonry, I could see a church eyeing us with suspicion.  How many new books have been published (without a good editor, I might add :1: ) in the last few years on hermetic ideas within the craft?



There are bigger issues than you mention above, after doing some research I think my next article will address this exact issue.  Regarding churches wariness of Freemasonry it is from multiple points, some of which are logical, others not so much.  The most common one i have heard is that by participating you are putting you salvation in jeopardy as Freemasonry is a one off from true teachings of Jesus Christ (I am thinking Christian Evangelical).  While the teachings themselves are not Satanic (killing cats, hailing Satan, etc).  They at times conflicting Dogma of Freemasonry and Christianity can cause the good Pilgrim off the leaded path (Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and is the only salvation vice a generic term for God and inclusion of other religions as being "equal").

The other, and far more pragmatic reason is that Freemasonry has now become in competition with your attention to the church.  My father who is a retired Methodist Minister didn't care for Freemasonry for this reason.  While he has no outward objections to me joining, he did complain that the Craft took away good men from leadership positions within his various church assignments.  Kind of like so many on this forum claim the Shrine takes away good men from the blue lodge. 

Regarding the promulgation of Hermetic and Gnostic beliefs, this isn't really recent, but part of something far more symptomatic within our society (I am going to write about this in due time).  Over zealousness and development of religious beliefs from the Craft was what Pike constantly reminded us NOT to do, while he wrote extensively of the ancient mysteries, his intent was never for recruitment or establishment of a religious order.  We do shoot ourselves in the foot when brethren come up with terms like "Masonic Baptism" and what not, which becomes the fodder for our skeptics and detractors.

Freemasonry has been a great enabler in my relationship with God, and has really expanded my mind and my practices.  I am so grateful for what I have learned that I wish other men would find it just as fulfilling.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## widows son (Feb 18, 2013)

Show where I have said that being a Christian makes a lesser man or mason. Never. What I did say is that I believe Christianity is not the one true religion, nor will I ever accept that,  and that one can get more out of masonry by looking at it from other perspectives, not necessarily Christian. Maybe thats why you're angry with me? Because i don't think christianity is the one true religion? And your right, I do believe certain aspects of the hierarchy of Christianity are about control, but that doesn't mean I feel that way about individual Christians, who are good people. A good person is a good person, religion doesn't define that. As for my tolerance, I see all beliefs as equal.  I don't think you have any right to call me or anyone intolerant when you yourself don't have an ounce of it in you, hence what I believe in. Like I've said before you can be whatever you want, it doesn't bother me in the least. Masonry is open to a lot of philosophical ideas, what makes you think Christianity holds dominance over them all?


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## jwhoff (Feb 18, 2013)

Help!  Why can't I thank Bro_Vick for the above post more than once! 

Again, an excellent post.


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## Rick Clifton (Mar 6, 2013)

Disappointing conclusion.   

Years ago.....

I remember learning my   *proficiencies* and talking with my coach on this matter.

He told me regarding masonry and (some) organized religion.

"Church is like a Jealous Woman" 

Whether you  like or not,  its just the way it is.

  It made sense to me.

Christ or the Lodge? 

 Believe I'll have a little of both.

Since your beliefs in God are between you and him 

and your beliefs in Masonry are between you and them.

You're better off to make up your own mind, 

than to let others, who you don't know,  tell you what you're allowed to believe.

JMHO


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## jwhoff (Mar 9, 2013)

That, my brother, should be the original premise of every free thinking man.  

I hazard to say, that thought process may have led to or something to do with you being a mason.

Remember, as mere mortals, we can only speculate on the will of the master.


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## Belcher (Mar 26, 2013)

Rick Clifton said:


> Disappointing conclusion.
> 
> Years ago.....
> 
> ...



you hit that nail on the head..... well said my brother.....


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## Vitriol Knight (Mar 26, 2013)

We all have our levels of understanding.
Every symbol has many layers, an outer layer for the public eye and the initiate and many inner layers for the adept, each layer is as true as the last. 
It would be an assualt to the mind to force another to see a layer that they are not ready to understand.

If I was to show an initiate a blade of grass and tell him that the color is green that statement would be true. It is up to the initiate to seek further knowledge; the blade of grass is green due to interactions with different wavelengths of light, change the wavelength and the color would change.... Simply a matter of interaction and perception.
Additionally if contemplated further it would be noted that the color green in the vegetation is due to the chemical process whereby the plant converts light to energy. We can allegorically connect the inner truth of a blade of grass to our reception of light to action.
On and on we can go, stripping down the layers of the symbol to fractals of the greater truth. Not all of us require this, not all of this desire this, force 1 gallon of water into a 1qt cup and you just confuse the cup and make a mess.
The symbols of freemasonry are deep and that is a fact, explain these symbols to yourself as you see fit.

So Mote It Be



Freemason Connect Premium App


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## Michael Neumann (Mar 31, 2013)

There are several young men here that have progressedthrough the degrees and I enjoy hearing their interpretations of Masonicsymbolism. Many times I have to ask them to expand upon an idea and continuedprompting them until I see that they have arrived at a deeper meaning. Thereare two very religious men that have progressed through the Blue House and arenow in the Commandery. Masonic ideals mold themselves to the individual, thisis why we build the man and through the man build the group. 
In Masonry you find what you seek and if you seek adisconnect between Christianity and Masonry you will find it… if you seek parallelsand harmony with Christianity you will find it.


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## streeter (Mar 31, 2013)

Blake Bowden said:


> Thoughts?
> 
> http://opc.org/GA/masonry.html



thoughts? sure - its sixty years out of date !  robert


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## dfreybur (Apr 1, 2013)

Blake Bowden said:


> Thoughts?
> 
> http://opc.org/GA/masonry.html



Masonry admits good men of every faith in the world that you've heard of and that you haven't heard of.  This is something to be proud of.  That some committee of fundies decided it's a bad thing reflects on them in pretty simple fashion in my book.  I find nothing in our admissions policy to be apologized for.

I can sit next to brother X for decades in lodge.  We can man the pancake griddle at the annual breakfast for year after year.  And in all that time I might or might not have learned his religious membership.  I learned that he's a good man.  Then one day I'm driving around with my family and I see brother X.  He's walking his family into the building of "that" religion.  Inside my head there's a BOOM as yet another prejudice blows away.  It's a maturity experience, a shift in perspective.  By understanding that good men are members of "that" religion my own heart and mind and perspective expand.  (Of course you can fill in the name of any religion you've ever heard of or haven't heard of above).

I think this level of openmindedness is at the core of the objection of that committee.  They can have their conclusion.  I'll take a pass on it.  If my preacher tries to pull over that level of restriction on me there's a milder church a few blocks down the road.  I'll go with a church that isn't afraid that I meet good men of other faiths.  After all that happens at the office as well as at lodge.  Are they going to ask me to change companies as well?


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## rebis (May 12, 2014)

Masonry, encourages sovereignty of thought and intellect. A mason goes where truth takes him.
Religion tells you what to think, how to perceive reality and what to believe of God...and if you are not satisfied with its way of thinking, interpretations or if you simply thirst for more understanding you will be labeled, referenced and categorized as a heretic...the priests will come to your house and ask you to denounce freemasonry. This is what the Greek Orthodox Church does.


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## rebis (May 13, 2014)

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/masonry.aspx



Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## BryanMaloney (May 14, 2014)

Point being?


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## BryanMaloney (May 14, 2014)

rebis said:


> Masonry, encourages sovereignty of thought and intellect. A mason goes where truth takes him.
> Religion tells you what to think, how to perceive reality and what to believe of God...and if you are not satisfied with its way of thinking, interpretations or if you simply thirst for more understanding you will be labeled, referenced and categorized as a heretic...the priests will come to your house and ask you to denounce freemasonry. This is what the Greek Orthodox Church does.



I flat-out asked my priest about Freemasonry, and he approved. Of course, a religious bigot would be upset by that approval. A bigot would, over and over again say things that can only be interpreted to mean that one CANNOT be a Mason and be religious. After all, if "Masonry encourages sovereignty of thought and intellect." and "Religion tells you what to think..." then a Mason MUST REJECT HIS OWN RELIGION TO REMAIN A MASON. The logic is that simple.

It is so sad that those who style themselves as interpreters of what Masonry is and is not are such extreme and severe bigots.


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## Willys (May 22, 2014)

I found the link to be working so took a look.  After reviewing its intent to apply a groups principles on the rights and privileges of another group, I decided not to bother with their investigation.  I did scroll to the conclusion to find...

An Orthodox Presbyterian committee to report on 'Secret Societies'.



> *Christ or the Lodge? A Report on Freemasonry*
> - - -snip- - -
> The committee finds that the evidence presented concerning the religion of Masonry permits but one conclusion. Although a number of the objections commonly brought against Masonry seem to the committee not to be weighty, yet it is driven to the conclusion that Masonry is a religious institution and as such is definitely anti-Christian.
> - - -snip- - -
> ...that in no way alters the fact that membership in the Masonic fraternity is inconsistent with Christianity.


Regardless of their principles or intent, well meaning or not my first consideration is that this is an organization that is established by humans for humans.  While religious institutions provide excellent rules and guides for an ordered civil structure and successful societal interaction, all societal institutions must make room for the principles and practices of other institutions, as a human endeavor.

While Freemasonry assists us to work towards becoming better men, as one of those men I strive to grow according to my spiritual lessons and understandings.  And while I do not endorse any religious institution as preferred to another, I don't find any given religious institution to have moral superiority to another.

Whether a religion, fraternity, or club, Freemasonry gives us tools to grow our spiritual minds towards the goals that suit our needs at that time.

I suspect I could ramble on but I know it's time to stop.

Your mileage may vary.
.


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## BroBook (May 22, 2014)

Christ or the lodge? I was a believer in the Bible before I "became" a mason, I was a mason before I got baptized , and waited 10 years before I started attending church on a regular basis ! In closing there is a great gulf between what men teach and what the BOOKs say! What I mean is that once we/mankind get involved it is just a mess waiting to happen! Jesus or masonry I take a double portion of both please!!! WWEA


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Jun 4, 2014)

The referenced page contains this quote

"In seeking to evaluate the religion of Masonry our standard must be Christianity, the one true religion. That Masonry cannot be simply non-Christian is self-evident. Neutrality with reference to Christianity is an obvious impossibility. Either Masonry as a religion is in agreement with Christianity, or it must be at odds with Christianity. Either it is Christian, or it must be anti-Christian."

This is the statement of a Zealot.


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## MoonlightMadness357 (Jun 5, 2014)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> The referenced page contains this quote
> 
> "In seeking to evaluate the religion of Masonry our standard must be Christianity, the one true religion. That Masonry cannot be simply non-Christian is self-evident. Neutrality with reference to Christianity is an obvious impossibility. Either Masonry as a religion is in agreement with Christianity, or it must be at odds with Christianity. Either it is Christian, or it must be anti-Christian."
> 
> This is the statement of a Zealot.


  well that quote solves it all and answers its self masonry is not a religion thus there is no conflict.... this is like stating that if the Navy as a religion must be in agreement with Christianity... we are as much a religion as the navy is or any other non religious grouping of people united with a purpose


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