# Pledge of Allegiance



## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 4, 2013)

*ironic*


----------



## Lucky7812 (Jul 4, 2013)

[h=5]_"I have a question regarding observation of the Pledge of Allegiance. 

Does anyone find it ironic that the Pledge is recited by rote in most lodges, but a discussion of it in that same lodge would likely be prohibited because the topics involved are so politically and religiously fraught?"_[/h][/QUOTE]

I would find it best not to discuss it in open lodge, then it gets left alone. The more people talk about a subject the easier it becomes to edit the content. That's my opinion.


----------



## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 4, 2013)

Or am I mistaken?


----------



## BryanMaloney (Jul 4, 2013)

Why would an allegedly free Republic of free Men need a loyalty oath, anyway? As for the "religious" issue--the GI Generation grew up without the words "under God". Does that mean they didn't deserve to win WWII and build the USA up during the 1950s?

More about the history and underlying truth behind this "pledge of allegiance" from the noted conservative group the Cato Institute: http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/whats-conservative-about-pledge-allegiance

"Whatâ€™s so conservative about the Pledge? Very little, as it turns out. From its inception, in 1892, the Pledge has been a slavish ritual of devotion to the state, wholly inappropriate for a free people. It was written by Francis Bellamy, a Christian Socialist pushed out of his post as a Baptist minister for delivering pulpit-pounding sermons on such topics as â€œJesus the Socialist.â€ Bellamy was devoted to the ideas of his more-famous cousin Edward Bellamy, author of the 1888 utopian novel _Looking Backward_. _Looking Backward_ describes the future United States as a regimented workerâ€™s paradise where everyone has equal incomes, and men are drafted into the countryâ€™s â€œindustrial armyâ€ at the age of 21, serving in the jobs assigned them by the state. Bellamyâ€™s novel was extremely popular, selling more copies than other any 19th century American novel except _Uncle Tomâ€™s Cabin._ Bellamyâ€™s book inspired a movement of â€œNationalist Clubs,â€ whose members campaigned for a government takeover of the economy. A few years before he wrote the Pledge of Allegiance, Francis Bellamy became a founding member of Bostonâ€™s first Nationalist Club."


----------



## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 4, 2013)

"equality"


----------



## Traveling Man (Jul 4, 2013)

Bellamy's goal was to sell flags...

In 1891, Daniel Sharp Ford, the owner of the _Youth's Companion_, hired Bellamy to work with Ford's nephew James B. Upham in the magazine's premium department. In 1888, the _Youth's Companion_ had begun a campaign to sell American flags to public schools as a premium to solicit subscriptions. For Upham and Bellamy, the flag promotion was more than merely a business move; under their influence, the _Youth's Companion_ became a fervent supporter of the schoolhouse flag movement, which aimed to place a flag above every school in the nation. By 1892, the magazine had sold American flags to approximately 26,000 schools. By this time the market was slowing for flags, but was not yet saturated...

In 1892, Upham had the idea of using the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus reaching the Americas to further bolster the schoolhouse flag movement. The magazine called for a national Columbian Public School Celebration to coincide with the World's Columbian Exposition. A flag salute was to be part of the official program for the Columbus Day celebration to be held in schools all over America. And so it started.


----------



## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 5, 2013)

harmony within the lodge should be (imho) sacrosanct


----------



## LittleHunter (Jul 5, 2013)

In my jurisdiction we recite the Pledge before the Lodge is opened and tyled. Never IN a tyled Lodge. Personally, I believe it is appropriate. Masonry holds a special place in the founding of our Republic. Reciting the Pledge has become a part of our tradition as Americans. I may not agree with everything my government does but I am still proud of my country and countrymen. Are we here to better our country because we love it or are we ere to destroy it because we might be angry at a particular politician or party? The Pledge urges us to take the former approach. It promotes solidarity. If someone hates the Pledge the I would wider if they hate America and if a man hates America I might not want to vote him into my Lodge... Such a man has some maturing to do, he might not bw ready for the responsibilities a Mason must shoulder.  We don't discuss politics in Tyled Lodge because politics are divisive... That doesn't mean we can't be patriotic.


Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 5, 2013)

solidarity or homogeneity?


----------



## BryanMaloney (Jul 5, 2013)

Godfrey Daniel said:


> I take that to mean you believe reciting the Pledge prior to opening lodge is appropriate, but not in a tyled lodge?
> 
> Further, that having any objection to its rote recitation is unpatriotic?  Or indicates that the objector is somehow angry at a particular politician or party?  Or by extension, hates America?  Does it promote solidarity or homogeneity?
> 
> I'm in complete agreement that Masonry held a special place in the founding of our Republic - perhaps nowhere as significantly a place as in the separation of Church and State, followed closely by what was at the time an unheard of right of citizens - freedom of speech.



And for at least a century after the foundation of the USA, there was no such "pledge". How did Freemasonry, or America, ever survive? :blink:


----------



## widows son (Jul 5, 2013)

^^^ this, I like.


----------



## LittleHunter (Jul 5, 2013)

I don't really have strong feelings about it. If the Grand Lodge of FL wants to get rid of the flag ceremony I'm not going to quit over it but I'm not going to support an effort to abolish it either. What would that accomplish? If ya'll want to kill the flag ceremony have at it... I'll sit back and watch what happens


Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 6, 2013)

political and a religious statement


----------



## BryanMaloney (Jul 6, 2013)

Godfrey Daniel said:


> If our Canadian brother attended lodge here, we obviously wouldn't expect him to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.  Nor would we expect a Brother who believed his religious beliefs were being compromised to do so.




Agreed, but there won't be such slack cut for "Honor the Texas flag"--that national stuff is okay, but Texas is IMPORTANT :w00t:.




> If I felt strongly that the Pledge had no place in lodge and exercised my Constitutional right of free speech and refrained from reciting it, would I be separating myself from the fold and be viewed as unpatriotic or irreligious?  I contend that for some, perhaps many, that would be the reaction - unpatriotic in particular.



Because public piety means everything--the public face is all that matters to some people, unfortunately... (Matt 6:1-6)


----------



## Tx4ever (Jul 6, 2013)

When the "Shrine" became international they changed the pledge said at each meeting to reflect this new international shrine, I still recite the pledge I learned in elementary school . I also was never in the military so I remove my Fez and place my hand over my heart. I get told all the time , You can leave your fez on etc etc, NOT ME. I take the pledge to the US flag as an honor, and if it offends so be it. If I happen  to be in your country I will stand quietly while you pledge to your flag .


----------



## Lucky7812 (Jul 6, 2013)

MS By-laws require the Pledge of Allegiance after the opening of the lodge. It is proper curtsy and standard practice that the Master remove his hat before asking the brethren to join him in giving the Pledge of Allegiance, so if a brother choses not to participate they are welcome to do so.

Â§19-15.1 ORDER OF BUSINESS
The Order of Business for Stated Communications of Subordinate Lodges shall be as follows:
1. Opening of the Lodge
2. Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag


----------



## BryanMaloney (Jul 6, 2013)

Tx4ever said:


> When the "Shrine" became international they changed the pledge said at each meeting to reflect this new international shrine, I still recite the pledge I learned in elementary school . I also was never in the military so I remove my Fez and place my hand over my heart. I get told all the time , You can leave your fez on etc etc, NOT ME. I take the pledge to the US flag as an honor, and if it offends so be it. If I happen  to be in your country I will stand quietly while you pledge to your flag .



Of course, removing the hat and hand/hat over heart is not the original delivery. The "pledge" was originally meant to begin with a military-style salute (even if done by schoolchildren). When the words "I pledge allegiance" were said, the salute was to change to a straight-arm-out salute toward the flag. It strongly resembled a salute used by a certain Austrian wannabe-architect's party: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute

Thus, it got changed.


----------



## crono782 (Jul 6, 2013)

I wonder how many strange looks I would get if I did a Bellamy salute these days. Of course some guys in most lodges probably remember it!


Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## Traveling Man (Jul 6, 2013)

Tx4ever said:


> When the "Shrine" became international they changed the pledge said at each meeting to reflect this new international shrine, I still recite the pledge I learned in elementary school . I also was never in the military so I remove my Fez and place my hand over my heart. I get told all the time , You can leave your fez on etc etc, NOT ME. I take the pledge to the US flag as an honor, and if it offends so be it. If I happen  to be in your country I will stand quietly while you pledge to your flag .



To me all this is a tempest in a tea pot. In other countries they have their pledges and I have respectfully acknowledged theirs as I would my own, this too was done in tyled lodges...

The United States Congress opens each session with the pledge of allegiance and a prayer...


----------



## Traveling Man (Jul 6, 2013)

Godfrey Daniel said:


> Nor would we expect a Brother who believed his religious beliefs were being compromised to do so.   Is that a subtle form of exclusion?  If I felt strongly that the Pledge had no place in lodge and exercised my Constitutional right of free speech and refrained from reciting it, would I be separating myself from the fold and be viewed as unpatriotic or irreligious?  I contend that for some, perhaps many, that would be the reaction - unpatriotic in particular.



If one were so inclined why would he be bothered by what others think? Nice mix by the way your statement, "unpatriotic or irreligious" that being in and of itself divisive.
In fact it is my understanding that the very few religious groups that take umbrage with "the flag" wouldn't kneel at an altar before a man.


----------



## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 6, 2013)

"tempest in a teapot"


----------



## Traveling Man (Jul 7, 2013)

The establishment clause has no effect in Masonry, nor does case law, as they apply to government institutions. There seems to be something that is being overlooked and that would be the freedom of association, something lacking in this dialogue. If someone wants to impose all of the contortions that have been misconstrued by the courts and apply them to private institutions they would cease to exist. One could argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but that would be futile. That would be about as futile as trying to apply case law that has been ruled on regarding school pledges to Freemasonry. Telling a banana that's an apple seems seldom to work out with any fruitful outcome.

Lest we forget that at one time we subjected ourselves for judgment of the fraternity. Those yardsticks by which we were judged could be interpreted as "unconstitutional". 
There’s those nasty requirements that a candidate be a man and not be an atheist.
So should we throw the baby out with the bathwater?

As I’m sure has been said before, you don’t have to recite the pledge, specifically if one has issues with it. All that I’m sure of is that one stands to show some decorum. Just as one would do in a foreign country when they are paying homage to their country.


----------



## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 7, 2013)

_ jitterbugging_


----------



## Traveling Man (Jul 7, 2013)

Godfrey Daniel said:


> Why a man may have objections to reciting the Pledge was clearly explained by reference to case law, nothing more. Somewhat off topic, but tell the Brethren of West Virginia (the most recent example) that the courts have no standing vis-a-vis "private institutions." The courts can and have gotten involved - when it could be demonstrated that the institution hadn't followed its own stated rules. For starters, I refer you the the EA charge and remind you to "conform with cheerfulness . . . "


 
And there's the answer, when individuals decide to drag things as such into court. I however noticed that nothing was said about the terms & conditions on our petition for membership, and nothing mentioned about Anderson's Constitutions nor bylaws and landmarks. Oh, well we'll leave that as it may. As for West Virginia, when you drag your laundry before Caesar you receive that justice which Caesar metes out. It only involves itself when some brethren drag it into the courts and then they only rule on whether we follow our own rules, nothing about the constitutionality of our regulations or charges or membership criteria. Nothing. 

Now would anyone care to share where in ANY Masonic Constitution, bylaws, rules or regulations whereby such a pledge of allegiance is expressly prohibited?



> There should be nothing inserted between opening and closing that causes any Mason to feel he needs to "opt out."


 
I summarily opt out of terminating any prayers in lodge that end in "You guess here". Am I going to bring it to the courts? I think not. Is it a tempest in a teapot? Yes it is!


Should we delete or modify this charge?

In the state, you are to be quiet and peaceable subject... and never forgetting the attachment you owe to the spot where you first drew breath.
This charge the opposite of your posit, is it not? Or is this just another Gordian Knot? One may twist and turn about the purpose, but the command is still there. I say the camel’s nose is already under the tent.


----------



## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 8, 2013)

Innovation.


----------



## Lucky7812 (Jul 8, 2013)

Godfrey Daniel said:


> Thus, it seems the man installed in the Oriental Chair would be free to make the call as to whether or not to include it, absent a Grand Lodge requirement that he do so.





Lucky7812 said:


> Â§19-15.1 ORDER OF BUSINESS
> The Order of Business for Stated Communications of Subordinate Lodges shall be as follows:
> 1. Opening of the Lodge
> 2. Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag



Mississippi Grand lodge By-Laws list the order of business as shall be as follows, not recommended agenda. Thus if you sit in the east you do not have an option to omit the pledge.


----------



## BryanMaloney (Jul 8, 2013)

Remember, folks, the USA was a loser in World War II, because the "pledge" didn't have "under God" at that time. Therefore, Germany and Japan (Italy in footnotes) must have won World War II, since the USA didn't have "under God" in the "pledge".


----------



## jvarnell (Jul 8, 2013)

It is my thoughts that the reason for the pledge of allegiance at the opening of the lodge is  so the government of any of the jurisdictions the Masons are in can not say that the lodge is a subversive anti-government organization.  Then it can't be shut down by that government. 

The part Bro. Maloney is always worried about the under God was only place in the pledge so state there is a SAOTU.  The anti-Christians religions picked up on that word and said that is not what we call our God so it is bad.  This is just another word being hijacked and redefined by someone to have a deferent meaning than the original.  The original is God equals a SAOTU.  Which could be yhwh, Jehovah or any other name.  That is why there were Greek God's, Roman God's and so on.  God is the SAOTU that you believe in.

Masonry is to bring these different belief systems together so we can have a fraternity that can trust and work together.


----------



## jvarnell (Jul 8, 2013)

Also I am glad to see Bro. Daniel back asking the had questions so we will think.


----------



## Traveling Man (Jul 8, 2013)

> You are mistaken regarding decisions rendered by the courts. Whether or not we as a private institution have followed our own rules is the criteria for whether or not the courts have the authority to get involved, not necessarily what decisions they might render.



We are saying the same thing, I was specifically addressing the constitutionality of our (bylaws, etc.) institution, not the back biting within that some would bring into the public courts. Once again, if this were truly a constitutional matter it would have been already ruled as such. Our landmarks are still the same; we are still charged the same.


----------



## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 8, 2013)

thought-provoking


----------



## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 8, 2013)

Augusta National


----------



## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 8, 2013)

_persistence of personality_​


----------

