# What happens to the rejected candidate?



## Roach

I ask this question here because I plan to petition a PH lodge. If one is rejected or blackballed; what happens to him? Is he given reason for the rejection or just turned away?


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## Bro.BruceBenjamin

If a petition is rejected the fine in most cases will also be returned. The petitioner can reapply after 6 months to the same lodge. It should be noted that a rejected petitioner cannot be accepted in another lodge in the jurisdiction after being rejected. If the petitioner desires to petition another lodge he may do so after waiting 6 months. This applies to the South Carolina jurisdiction, but the terminology is similar through all jurisdictions. Rather or not it is disclosed about why the petition was rejected is at the discretion of the WM and his craft in most case it is not disclosed.


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## Roach

Thank you sir, but my thought is this. If the petition is rejected and the reason is not disclosed then how is the man to improve himself and reapply. To me not knowing the wrong means i can't make it right.


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## choppersteve03

Such is freemasonry.


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## MikeMay

I know one person who was rejected.  He was not told why, but later found out he was rejected because, as a child he knocked the teeth out another child who as it turned out was the WM at the time he petitioned. 

He was accepted the next year.


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## LukeD

I wonder if he recognized the WM as the kid he clocked. I prob would have chose a different lodge if there was one.


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## Bro.BruceBenjamin

In honesty nobody knows how anyone votes as the ballot is secret. The dreaded blackball could come from any member of the craft during the time of the ballot.


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## Frater Cliff Porter

Its been my experience that most rejected, for good or bad reasons....know the answer as to why.


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## BroBill

*Vote is Secret by Law*

I believe it is a Masonic Offense to discuss how you vote or to question a brother as to how they vote.


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## Bill Lins

*Re: Vote is Secret by Law*



BroBill said:


> I believe it is a Masonic Offense to discuss how you vote or to question a brother as to how they vote.



In our (GLoT) obedience. Dunno about PHA.


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## Bro. David F. Hill

Same with PHA.


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## choppersteve03

Same in Iowa,I  think its just plain Masonic law.


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## Ashlar

MikeMay said:


> I know one person who was rejected.  He was not told why, but later found out he was rejected because, as a child he knocked the teeth out another child who as it turned out was the WM at the time he petitioned.
> 
> He was accepted the next year.



Hmm , one of the MMs in my lodge was an old nemesis   of mine all through school . We fought more times than I care to count , I won some , he won some . I was at lodge to have dinner with them the night I was to be balloted on and he walked in and I though "Oh crap!!!" . He and I did not talk and I just knew I was going to be black balled . They came down afterwards and said the ballot was clear . My old enemy and I have now become friends because of Freemasonry , but I did tell him that I figured he would have black balled me (though I no longer had any animosity toward him ) and he said he left all that behind in the past as I had because neither one of us remembered why we harbored such hatred toward each all through our school years .


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## Txmason

Why not join a regular Freemasons lodge (Blue lodge)?


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## Roach

I hope I don't offend anyone but to be honest after talking with several masons and reading through this site I just believe I will be received better if I joined a PH lodge. This is not to say that there are no mainstream lodges that would not welcome me but the risk is greater that I would be rejected because of color then for my values. To me it seems that the light may be presented differently but at the end of the day the meaning is the same.


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## choppersteve03

wow


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## Txmason

@roach

Of course not. I would hope you would be accepted everywhere you whether mainstream or pha. Don't limit yourself to just one lodge. Mainstream is the way to go. I am sure whatever decision you make you will be happy. Masonry has afforded myself the chance to meet many people. A lifelong journey.


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## owls84

Txmason said:


> Mainstream is the way to go.



This decision is all about your personal preference and where you feel comfortable. I know several (Caucasian and hispanic) brothers that have now moved their membership to PHA from GLoTX. I personally have made the decision to do this as well and I am currently in the stage of moving my membership from the Grand Lodge of Texas to the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas. Even though I am a minority, by race only, in that organization I feel at home with the views and ideas of Masonry that are taught there. This is a personal preference and only a decision that you can make. Many Jurisdictions around the world recognize PHA and attending lodges while on travel will still happen so don't let this deter you. I recommend you visit both and see which you feel comfortable in but don't let someone "convince" you on this decision.


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## JJones

Maybe I'm off topic but I find myself wondering what would draw a member of the GLOTX to the PHGL?

I'm not asking this to sound negative, I'm know little about PH masonry so I'm genuinely curious as to what they do differently.

Do they take the craft more seriously?  Are the degrees/meetings more impressive?


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## Bill Lins

Bro. owls- I hate to see you go but I can't say I blame you. I wish you only the best.


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## owls84

JJones said:


> what would draw a member of the GLOTX to the PHGL?


* Before you read this, I want you to know I am writing this not as a staff member of MasonsofTexas but as a Master Mason under the Grand Lodge of Texas, AF&AM. Some people may get their feelings hurt and that may not be my intent, but I hope this opens people’s eyes to a flawed system that only THEY can change. I for one and tired of going at it alone or with a select few of real Brothers. You know who you are. The question was asked by Bro. JJones and I feel he is deserving of a REAL answer. Keep in mind this is MY opinion and does not reflect that of MOT.*

For me it is the focus on MASONRY. I walked into Pride of the South No. 324 during a visit we made jointly to a nursing home and they had 3M jumbo note pad and easel set up and they had been teaching the lessons of the 47th problem of Euclid to the new members. They get the importance of Brotherhood, family, and it is just so much more to them. Being a Mason means so much and then I sit in my lodge room and see the brethren bickering and arguing over EVERYTHING from which garbage service to if we want to control our scholarship more. I see people sign petitions because we need members only for the new members that no one knew came in and be trouble makers. 

I see a vicious circle at the Grand Lodge level. I have personally been lied to time and time again by GL officers. I was actually told, and I have email, by the now Grand Senior Warden that he would make sure that ALL program is revamped if he is elected in the South; this all while he is serving on the education committee. I have had the law book slammed down in my face by the soon to be Grand Master because at a Secretary's school I asked why he kept calling Masonry a charitable organization and by doing so he is correctly stating our IRS status and giving people an illusion that we are a "charitable organization" like Red Cross or the Goodwill and not an fraternal organization set up with a system of Lodges for the purpose of education, religion, or charity, thus making us an organization that does charity as defined for all of our legal items. I have repeatedly received phone calls from men I have got to know because our Grand Lodge was attempting to shut down or attempt to get control of this site not because of what we do but because knowledge is spreading faster than many can control and "the questions are becoming too hard for GL officers to answer." This at the same time that during last year elections we (MOT) have requested information for all of the Grand South candidates so we could send out a questionnaire so we could publish on this site to educate our members and Masons in Texas of who they are electing. Our request was refused but If I was an MWSA or MSB I could have got it no problem. 

I can go on and on and on with stories that I have personally lived. Stories like when we attempted to get a copy of the 2007 compact that was signed by PH and the GLoTX. We were told that they did not have a copy. When we had a friend from PHA request it not only did we get the compact we were told that on July 2, 2010 they requested full visitation. GLoTX would never confirm it. They reported on it during the 2010 annual communication but you never heard it referred to as Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas during the 2010 Fraternal Relations Committee report. It was "the other grand jurisdiction who we share territorial jurisdiction with that was chartered in 1871." 

Does this seem like an organization that is honest with the members? It is a "good ole boy" system that is causing Masonry in Texas to suffer. Smaller lodges are being choked out and no one seems to bat an eye. We have been spitting out ideas on this site alone and just because it comes from here it won't happen. Look at how long we have been lobbying to get license plates on here. We have posted the budget on here for discussion and then when an attempt to amend was made at last year's communications it was told that they work a year in advance and amendments can't be made to the upcoming year.  Committees have become a joke and ineffective to the tune if you are elected you are not tasked with anything but you get to wear a different color tie and have a name badge made up. 

We will soon be paying as much as Grand Lodge Jurisdictions like Massachusetts and California yet our level or Masonic education is NO WHERE near the level of theirs. Yet this increase of annual returns was sold to the membership as “a need to continue the level of Masonry needed to maintain membership in Texas.” Really? Is it at a high level? Is it at a medium level? What kind of education are we publishing? The Texas Mason Magazine? The ALL Program that has not been updated in over 10 years but is mandatory for all new Masons under the Grand Lodge of Texas to learn? It’s embarrassing when I would try and teach this to my new members. The response from the committee when contacted? “If elected to the Grand South I’ll be sure it is done.” That is YOUR Grand Lodge. Many people don’t deal with the administration side of Masonry because a lot of people want to carry a card and put a shiny emblem on their vehicles. 

So you ask why? Because I am so MAD at our Grand Lodge that they can’t drop the egos and they don’t want to look past their noses to ask the members what they want. They are no different than the politicians in Washington. When the system in Washington fails we are so quick to blame the president why are we not screaming at the GM or other officers when the system is Waco fails too? It kills me that I have to go to another organization and leave the one that I joined because my Grandfather thought the world of this very organization. It kills me that I am the one that has to leave, not because I am leaving Masonry but because I LOVE MASONRY so much I want to feel what it really is. Not watered down, not ego driven, but REAL MASONRY. REAL BROTHERHOOD. That is why I am leaving the Grand Lodge of Texas for the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas. Because I WANT MASONRY.  

One thing I have learned by making this decision is that the dues card does not make the man a Mason but it is what is in his heart. There are many men that do not posses a dues card but they are in possession of the secrets of a Master Mason. Likewise, there are many men that have a dues card that don’t have a clue. Some sitting in the south, west, and east but the fact is, no matter where they sit they are truly symbolic north.


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## Bro.BruceBenjamin

JJones said:


> Maybe I'm off topic but I find myself wondering what would draw a member of the GLOTX to the PHGL?
> 
> I'm not asking this to sound negative, I'm know little about PH masonry so I'm genuinely curious as to what they do differently.
> 
> Do they take the craft more seriously?  Are the degrees/meetings more impressive?



Prince Hall Masonry has the distinct ability to embrace all of it members irregardless of race, color, creed or nationality. A man should be measured by his character and if found worthy balloted on and accepted. Prince Hall Masonry is a life style that is lived daily.The initiate finds himself yearning and thirsting after more light. Although I have never attended a traditional observance lodge I find it is the closest to a prince hall lodge for brothers that happen not to be prince hall affiliated.


During the civil war I am amazed to learn of the acts of brotherly love that accured between soldiers ofthe confederate and union armies. The same can be said for the brothers on the battle field today. We as civilians seem to get caught up in traditions. One thing is for sure if it is a bad tradition it only takes one person to be a leader and step up by speaking out to change it.


I have watched my grand father and some of my friends grand fathers argue for hours about who is clandestine because their black and who stole masonry from the ancient kemitans. Certainly we are civilized enough to know that times have certainly changed. We need to leave those hateful nasty spirits were they are in the past. I count of my brothers daily on my left, on my right,behind me and in front of me and they do the same. 


Masonry is the tie that binds us all together. We are many pieces of the same puzzle.


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## Mac

Bro.BruceBenjamin said:


> Prince Hall Masonry has the distinct ability to embrace all of it members irregardless of race, color, creed or nationality. A man should be measured by his character and if found worthy balloted on and accepted.



I understand the history that would prompt such a statement, but I feel it poignant to share that my Lodge just voted in the positive on the petition of an African-American man for the mysteries.  As a member of the Grand Lodge of Texas, I feel we also have the ability to embrace members, regardless of the qualities mentioned; this privilege is not distinct to Prince Hall Freemasonry.  Because of the viewpoints of the Boston masons (and similar) who rejected Prince Hall's petition, an obvious racial divide was amplified in Masonry's development here in the states.

Thankfully, those old viewpoints are dying out, and so are their presence in the Lodgeroom.  I don't look at a candidate's race in the least when voting, and I would openly inform a brother who did that it was not only intolerable, but a Masonic offense.

As far as why I'd like to visit a PHA Lodge?  In my mind, it's like the Lodges in England that don't practice a uniform ritual.  I would love to see how another system of Masonry confers its degrees.  In the Scottish and English systems, the Lodges can essentially pick a ritual to use for their work, so you can see quite diverse examples of our Craft over there.  In Texas, I can see but one, despite the presence of another recognized system.  It's time to move on and make things right, and gratefully, the gears seem to be turning in that respect.


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## Bro.BruceBenjamin

Bro. Mac can I import you to South Carolina? Matter of fact we will even throw in a house on the golf course. Seriously I envy the work that is being done by the brothers in Texas my only hope is one day the brothers of South Carolina will pick up this same spirit.


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## JJones

> Before you read this, I want you to know I am writing this not as a staff member of MasonsofTexas but as a Master Mason under the Grand Lodge of Texas, AF&AM. Some people may get their feelings hurt and that may not be my intent, but I hope this opens people’s eyes to a flawed system that only THEY can change. I for one and tired of going at it alone or with a select few of real Brothers. You know who you are. The question was asked by Bro. JJones and I feel he is deserving of a REAL answer. Keep in mind this is MY opinion and does not reflect that of MOT.



I get the feeling like I opened a big can of worms with my last question!  I thank you for being so straightforward with me brother, your reply, as well as Brother Benjamin's, sort of confirmed the suspicions I had.



> The initiate finds himself yearning and thirsting after more light. Although I have never attended a traditional observance lodge I find it is the closest to a prince hall lodge for brothers that happen not to be prince hall affiliated



 Thank you for this, good info to know!


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## Huw

Interesting thread, Brethren, thanks.

I note your decision, Bro. Owls.  A pity that you have to uproot yourself like this, but I can see why you feel that you must.  It occurs to me that it's sometimes actually an advantage to have two regular jurisdictions in the same territory:  if a Brother is frustrated with one jurisdiction, at least he has somewhere he can go without having to leave masonry altogether.  That aspect hadn't occurred to me before.  If I got teed off with my own jurisdiction (although thankfully I'm not), then I've got no regular alternative.  But if many people were to start switching affiliation like this, I suspect that GLs would get very upset.

T & F,

Huw


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## Txmason

@owls84

Sorry to see you leave regular masonry brother. Massachusetts does do it quite differently than Texas. I am a member in Texas as well as massachusetts and I can say Texas does it right. Best of luck in your journey.


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## Huw

Hey, Txmason, I think that's an unnecessarily pejorative way of describing what Bro. Owls is doing.

He's not leaving regular masonry.  PHATX is regular, and GLTX has agreed that it's regular by recognising it.  It couldn't have been recognised if it weren't regular, that's always a pre-condition for recognition.  Owls is merely transferring from one regular GL to another regular GL.

T & F,

Huw


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## Bill Lins

Huw said:


> I if many people were to start switching affiliation like this, I suspect that GLs would get very upset.



If they were smart, they'd treat it as a wake-up call.


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## Txmason

Bro. Huw,

Oh I apologize brother I did not know. My apologizes to the brother whom I wrote to. I'm sorry!


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## Michaelstedman81

I know it is a VERY far shot, but what would you Brothers think about it if all of PHs and mainstream GLs came together and got rid of the barriers by combining into one organization?  No more PH, no more mainstream, and get rid of territorial worries. Just one group dedicated to the same things. 

I know that it would basically be impossible and could only happen in a perfect world, but would you all feel about it if it were to happen? 

I for one would like to see something like that. I know some PH Brothers that I would love to be able to communicate things with and be able to visit and host with open arms and the brotherly love that we are taught in this Fraternity. It is just a shame that because of organizational laws I am unable to do so. I know that there are traditions and certain things that PHs have that are a bit different than say the GLoT, but I would be excited to get rid of those differences of how we do things and all be on the same page. I find it pretty neat when sitting next to a Brother and a non-Mason knowing that the Brother and I have been through basically the same rituals that the non-Mason hasn't. Just a little common bond. Getting everyone together on the same page would allow me to have that with more Brothers that I can share that bond with. Especially being able to talk about it and share it.

Like I said, I know it wouldn't happen as it seems both GLs want to be pretty territorial and want to hold onto their own way of doing things. But, I was just curious how y'all would feel if everyone could come together and make some sort of arrangement.


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## Huw

Hi Bill.



Bill_Lins77488 said:


> If they were smart, they'd treat it as a wake-up call.


Yes, although it'd depend somewhat on why people were doing it, assuming they weren't all doing it for identical reasons.

However, although no doubt some people would react as you suggest, of course there'd also be the head-in-the-sand brigade saying "thays oughtn'ter be a-doin thart, summun oughter do summart ta storp 'em!"  If there were suddenly a whole bunch of members transferring, how long would it take the pointy-hood tendency to start arguing that this was evidence that mutual recognition was a disaster and ought to be repealed?

Actually, though, I believe the vast majority of Brethren in any jurisdiction feel great loyalty to their own GL, and it takes a great deal of frustration to overcome that loyalty.  Bro. Owls has now reached that level of frustration and has explained why, so his decision is understandable, but most Brethren aren't as activist as Owls and therefore aren't likely to get so very fed up.  Therefore I'll be surprised if this sort of thing actually becomes an issue ... but therefore also, it's not likely to become a wake-up call.

T & F,

Huw


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## Huw

Hi Michael.



Michaelstedman81 said:


> I know it is a VERY far shot, but what would you Brothers think about it if all of PHs and mainstream GLs came together and got rid of the barriers by combining into one organization?


On the one hand, fraternal unity is a masonic ideal. On the other hand, conserving our traditions is also a masonic ideal. At the moment, these ideals are not compatible.

In the long run, I think you ought to be gradually working towards a situation where union would become a natural step. But I stress gradually, not rushing at it, and I reckon it'll take generations. If the jurisdictions are working well internally and maintaining good fraternal relations between each other, then there's no urgent problem, merely a theoretical ambition for eventual unity, so why hurry? It wouldn't be that big a deal if it never happened at all, provided the mutual relationship remained good.

If you mean nationwide in the US (and I think you do), then it's probably eventually possible if that's what Brethren really want, and certainly it would simplify a lot of current complications.

If you mean globally (and probably you don't), then no, I wouldn't even share that as an ideal.  Cultural and language differences between countries are too large, there'd be far too many misunderstandings and disputes, it'd disintegrate inevitably and acrimoniously.  Better to work for the maintenance of good relations between permanently-separate sovereign bodies than try to force-fit an artificial unity.



Michaelstedman81 said:


> I know some PH Brothers that I would love to be able to communicate things with and be able to visit and host with open arms and the brotherly love that we are taught in this Fraternity.


Of course this doesn't require union of the GLs, merely full mutual recognition in the sense of visiting rights and so on.

The relations between GLTX and PHATX are obviously better than they were a few years ago, in the sense that at least there is now a basic acknowledgement of one another, but it can't be called a good fraternal relationship when you can't even visit. This is clearly a much more urgent practical issue than any long-run theory about actual union, and I hope you'll be able to address it within the current generation.

T & F,

Huw


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## JJones

Michaelstedman81 said:


> I know it is a VERY far shot, but what would you Brothers think about it if all of PHs and mainstream GLs came together and got rid of the barriers by combining into one organization?  No more PH, no more mainstream, and get rid of territorial worries. Just one group dedicated to the same things.



Actually...and I know this will sound weird, but I think the current situation is actually a _good_ thing.  Why?  Because it means that whomever offers the lowest quality 'product' will suffer while brethren flock to whichever Grand Lodge/local Lodge is actually providing the brothers with quality Freemasonry.

I'm not advocating musical chairs or anything by any means...but when it finally becomes common knowledge that masons have their options then each Grand Lodge will have to strive for the highest quality possible if they want to keep their influence.


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## Bro. David F. Hill

Two night ago I was part of the Investigation Committee talking to three applicants and during the interview we let each know that there were two GL's and that they had choices.  We wanted them to make an informed decision.


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## Huw

Hi PH021211.

This is fascinating. Since we don't have a choice of recognised GLs here in England, I hadn't previously thought about how to conduct Candidate interviews in such circumstances.



PH021211 said:


> Two night ago I was part of the Investigation Committee talking to three applicants and during the interview we let each know that there were two GL's and that they had choices. We wanted them to make an informed decision.


That's certainly admirable. Where there's more than one recognised GL in the same place, it does sound right to make sure that Candidates know they have the choice. I hope every Committee in both jurisdictions will think to be as fair-minded as this when interviewing.

However, the natural next question from a Candidate is to ask what the difference is and why there are two. You haven't got all night to explain two hundred years of complex history, and anyway it isn't always easy for someone who isn't yet a Mason to understand even when there's time to explain at length. So what do you say? Obviously the over-simplified summary is "Well one used to be for white guys and one used to be for black guys, but we're putting all that behind us now" ... but gee, wouldn't it be rather embarrassing to have to bring up the racial history just when everyone's trying hard to get past that? Naturally none of us want to give Candidates a poor impression of the Craft. So what do you actually say to him?

The Candidate's natural next question after that is "So when are the two GLs going to get together?" Not yet being a Mason, he hasn't yet become involved in masonic tradition, so I reckon it's going to sound pretty weak to him to answer in terms of conserving distinct traditions. What do you say to him?

T & F,

Huw


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## owls84

These questions you bring up Bro. Huw are exactly why it important for us in Texas to be educated in the differences and the similarities between the two. For me when the question came up I used the analogy that no two lodges in a jurisdiction are the same. One Lodge may focus on charity and another on education. The same goes for the two separate jurisdictions. I inform them that there was, and sometimes still is, a history in the lodges that mirrored that of the United States with a racial divide but now the differences are more in how they approach Masonry. I usually finish it up with "keep in mind the Mason is flawed but Masonry is not." This shows him that even though there are problems with the system the teachings are still good and it allows him to make an educated decision on his choice. I am a big believer of education not persuasion.


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## Beathard

I'm not sure how the thread got so far off the question, but...  I hope that PH and "mainstream" never become one. I do hope we get visitation and even plural membership between the two. There is to much valuable history and ritual differences that would be lost. Let's respect where we have come from and what we have built.


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## TravellingManPHA

Very well put Owls84, I couldn't have said it better. Kudos


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## TravellingManPHA

This thread is, to say the least, very informative. I think it is very healthy for both sides to have an opinion on the matter. Being a Texas Prince Hall Mason (by way of Arkansas Jurisdiction of PHA freemasonry) I can respectively say that we as a whole do not turn away any brother for something as petty as skin color, now Prince Hall Masonry is by no means perfect, nor do we consider ourselves better than any mainstream Masons, but we do hold in regards the respect that we receive from brothers who have sought admission into the Prince Hall craft from mainstream lodges. I can vouch for at least 3 brothers that have disconnected themselves from the GLofTX and have become Prince Hall Masons and their experiences within the Prince Hall ranks have been extremely pleasant per their personal revelations. You see, the MWPHGLofTX and the MWGLofTX are both the same in many respects and could benefit greatly from one another, however both parties are at a standstill because one side doesnt agree with the other side, plain and simple. Let it be known that Prince Hall Masonry stands alone, and very capable of operating without the recognition of mainstream Masons, but in a world where we practice faith, hope, charity and brotherly love we lose more than we gain. There are so many gifted, educated and talented brothers on both sides, and together PH Masons and mainstream Masons could change the perceptions that many people, INCLUDING already made Masons, have about both of the Grand Jurisdictions. I included the Masons in that statement (PH and AFAM) not to touch on the Satanic or Illuminati aspect because we as Masons know that there's no truth to that, but to expound on the bigotry that engulfs our noble fraternity. Unfortunately their are Masons on both sides of the fence that are lost in the biles of racial segregation and just plain ole ignorance, but for those of us today who actually love the fraternity and work to uplift the values and moral background of the organiztion, we are left to be victims of "Back in the day" politics which cripple good brothers. I for one would like to see at least visitation between the two, but I definitely don't see that happening in Texas anytime soon. Brothers work is work, no matter your skin color. I would like to think that we all have a common goal, to better our community, ourselves and all those around us. I hail from Live Stone Lodge #152, Grand Prairie, TX. check us out sometime, we are on Facebook @ www.facebook.com/livestonelodge152 or check out our website, www.livestonelodge152.com 
The community is our backbone and our members are the breath of life that keeps us going, lets not dishonor those that has left us by standing for the foolishness, tear down the walls and live FREE as Masons, FREE as brothers!


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