# Transgender Masons



## jdmadsen (Jul 5, 2015)

https://www.reddit.com/r/freemasonry/comments/3awza2/transgendered_youth_in_the_masonic_community/

I just read this thread and I can believe that Brothers were actually arguing for allowing a) trans candidates in and b) allowing brothers who want to/do transition to stay in......i know for me if i knew a candidate was born a female id black ball it everytime....what about you guys?


----------



## Andymac40330 (Jul 5, 2015)

Per the regulations it seems you'd be correct but I'd like to hear some other opinions as I'm a new MM


----------



## NZ-Freemason (Jul 5, 2015)

I think if a current Freemason transitioned to become a female, then they would need to resign their membership. That is straight up and down in my opinion.

If however, a person, born a female but became a male later in life petitioned to join the craft, what grounds would there be to blackball them? A part from anything, how would the brethren know this information? Its not like its a standard question when petitioning a lodge? 

I wouldn't blackball an applicant purely because they were trans-gendered.


----------



## dfreybur (Jul 5, 2015)

A case of a male to female transition happened in California one of the years I was a warden.  The lady was convinced to demit.  So far so good.  She had her birth certificate legally changed to say female, not sure how that worked but it happened.

That's when the entertainment ensued.  She petitioned for the Order of the Amaranth.  She got someone to sign her petition as having known her since birth.  When the members figured out what had happened they filed charges, did an Amaranth trail, ejected her.  Then they voted at state annual communication to add the word "born" to their petition.

The Amaranth delegates requested that the same change by made at the blue lodge state petition form.  One of the officers in the line with me was a Grand something in the Amaranth so he wrote the proposal.  I signed.

When it came to debate on the floor the committee on jurisprudence recommended that any such event be considered a local issue and they did not want the state level to touch the topic.  I did not go to the floor to argue in favor.  Transsexuals are rare.  How many know even one anywhere?

I'm straight but not narrow.  In theory I'm not bothered by such a person.  How i think I might vote is between me and myself.  How I would end up voting would be between me and the ballot box.  I would not be surprised at a rejection.

How about someone we don't know?  I can't even begin to estimate how I would react.


----------



## JJones (Jul 5, 2015)

I creep around r/Freemasonry but I've stopped posting much for the time being...I remember seeing a thread like the OP mentioned before.

I've submitted and revised this several times as it's a delicate subject.  I'll just leave it at this: admission into the fraternity and the continued membership therein require the belief in a supreme deity.  Supreme deities don't make mistakes.


----------



## Companion Joe (Jul 6, 2015)

For some reason, I followed the link and read some of the comments. The following has nothing to do with Masonry:

I can't believe some people are advocating allowing children to make such decisions. If a grown man wants to do such a thing, whatever; knock yourself out, Caitlyn. This isn't like when you were a teenager and just had to have a Members Only jacket and parachute pants. It's real, and the results are with you for the one life you get here on Earth. There isn't a reset button. As a high school teacher, I know first hand that what 16-17 year olds know to be real on Monday has completely changed by Friday. Kids get caught up in and are influenced by whatever freakshow reality TV program is the rage of the moment. It makes me cringe to think where our society is headed.


----------



## Brother_Steve (Jul 6, 2015)

There are certain questions you are asked at the door and if they are not in the affirmative then you cannot be a mason.

Having said that, you cannot make someone "forget" masonry if they go from being a man to a woman after being raised.

They will always be a mason having experienced the degrees and moral lessons therein.

Traveling may be a pain though if your jurisdiction allows you to remain a member of your lodge.


----------



## jdmadsen (Jul 6, 2015)

No that person won't forget what he experienced, but neither will an expelled mason.  That's not the point.  The point is that they no consider themselves women therefore u no longer meet one of the basic prerequisites to be a mason!


----------



## Rifleman1776 (Jul 6, 2015)

I believe a person cannot be 'transistioned' male to female or visa versa. The body may be chemically and surgically altered but one is still what they were born as. We don't have to answer for our black balls. All that is necessary is if we believe the petitioner will not make a good Mason. After the fact?  Thorny issue. I have to wonder why a male to female trans would want to stay except to make a fuss.


----------



## Glen Cook (Jul 6, 2015)

Brother_Steve said:


> There are certain questions you are asked at the door and if they are not in the affirmative then you cannot be a mason.
> 
> Having said that, you cannot make someone "forget" masonry if they go from being a man to a woman after being raised.
> 
> ...


But that begs the question, does it not?  If the person answers yes, as they have undergone gender transformation, where do you go from there?  I am not aware of a jurisdiction which asks at the door if you were born a man.

FWIW, my advice has been that if the birth certificate does not indicate male, they do not qualify. If they now identify as female, they do not qualify.


----------



## crono782 (Jul 6, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> But that begs the question, does it not?  If the person answers yes, as they have undergone gender transformation, where do you go from there?  I am not aware of a jurisdiction which asks at the door if you were born a man.


 
Purely from a philosophical standpoint, we also require that a man be free born. Given that a lot if not most trans folks self describe as being the opposite gender, but "trapped" in the wrong gender/body, would that not be a bit like being shackled and perhaps not free in that context at birth? Food for thought...


----------



## hanzosbm (Jul 6, 2015)

As far as I'm concerned, just because you change out the fenders and give it a new paint job doesn't mean that a Ford becomes a Chevy.  I don't really care who or what you 'identify' as, I care what you _are_.  And no amount of cutting things off or makeup is going to change that.  That being said, I do feel that a man who decides he wants to be a woman has forfeit his claim to being a man.  So, in short, a transgender individual, in my opinion, would not be permitted to join.

I think there are other issues raised here as well.  The two main ones I can think of are choosing to go against the design of one's creator and judgment of mental stability of a person who would undergo such a change.  Admittedly those two objections are matters of opinion, but I think they ought to at least be considered.


----------



## jdmadsen (Jul 6, 2015)

I am so glad that we are mainly on the same page here.  I couldn't believe that "brothers"  on the redditt page were argueing for this nonsense


----------



## hanzosbm (Jul 6, 2015)

Everyone has a right to an opinion, and I'm fine with them arguing their point, regardless of what I think of it.  That being said, in an atmosphere where all it takes is a single dissenting, anonymous vote to prevent it, I doubt we'll be seeing many of them in our lodges.


----------



## hanzosbm (Jul 6, 2015)

There is another issue that just came to me that I'm not sure we've addressed.

Each of us took an oath as Master Masons.  Regardless of what any GL says about what they think is acceptable or not, our oath was to a higher power than them and cannot be repudiated or laid aside.  While each man must make the decision about whether or not he feels that the individual petitioning fits the requirements in their own interpretation, to me, even if the GL were to say to let them in, that would not be good enough.  I would refuse to be present for the making of such a Mason and I would refuse to sit in Lodge with such a Mason, and no edict coming from any power lower than that which I took my oath to (i.e., none) can change that.  I have a feeling that if the GL were to press this issue and require acceptance, you'd see either non-compliance or a mass exodus from the Craft.


----------



## JJones (Jul 6, 2015)

jdmadsen said:


> I am so glad that we are mainly on the same page here. I couldn't believe that "brothers" on the redditt page were argueing for this nonsense



If you want to see real arguing, join up with some Masonic Facebook groups if you haven't already.  It's an embarrassment.


----------



## NZ-Freemason (Jul 6, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> I have a feeling that if the GL were to press this issue and require acceptance, you'd see either non-compliance or a mass exodus from the Craft.



I agree. Its no secret that here in New Zealand we fancy ourselves quite "progressive" (take from that what you will), but if a unilateral decision was made by the Grand Lodge of New Zealand to accept all transgendered people the craft would probably lose 90% of her members.

If I had to guess, I would say that Freemasonry in New Zealand would adopt a "Don't ask, don't tell" approach. Issues like this would be put firmly in the too hard basket.


----------



## Keith D. McKeever Jr. (Jul 6, 2015)

The investigation committee is going to have to do some extensive background search and now I feel that there is really going to be a discrimination lawsuit against the craft. How would that work? I'm pretty sure they'll be another clandestine grand lodge being establish to accommodate those not being a man, free born, of lawful age, and well recommended.


----------



## hanzosbm (Jul 6, 2015)

I'm not too worried about a lawsuit for discrimination.  If there was any grounds to base it on, women and atheists would've put an end to us long ago. 

As for the forming of a new clandestine lodge...that's an interesting point.  I wonder how some of the comasonry groups will approach this.  Having no prohibition about women or men belonging to their group, I don't know how they would feel about the issue.


----------



## Companion Joe (Jul 6, 2015)

I may botch this post trying to get it inserted the right way, but I'll try. This is something another person posted on Twitter.

"It's hard to believe which one of these is frowned upon by society."
View attachment 4672 View attachment 4673


----------



## Companion Joe (Jul 6, 2015)

OK, so obviously I did botch it.
Anyway, one was a picture of the "Dukes" saying grace at the table, and the other was a picture promoting transgender pregnancy.


----------



## JJones (Jul 6, 2015)

Companion Joe said:


> I may botch this post trying to get it inserted the right way, but I'll try. This is something another person posted on Twitter.
> 
> "It's hard to believe which one of these is frowned upon by society."
> View attachment 4672 View attachment 4673



It's not working for me.


----------



## Companion Joe (Jul 6, 2015)




----------



## Companion Joe (Jul 6, 2015)

It doesn't have the same impact out of context and all together. Sorry, what can I say? I still write on actual paper using a fountain pen!


----------



## JJones (Jul 6, 2015)

@Companion Joe, I immediately regret my curiosity.


----------



## jdmadsen (Jul 6, 2015)

I pretty sure those are just fat dudes...lol


----------



## Browncoat (Jul 7, 2015)

JJones said:


> If you want to see real arguing, join up with some Masonic Facebook groups if you haven't already.  It's an embarrassment.


One could easily make the same assessment of this forum.


----------



## Glen Cook (Jul 7, 2015)

Rifleman1776 said:


> I believe a person cannot be 'transistioned' male to female or visa versa. The body may be chemically and surgically altered but one is still what they were born as. We don't have to answer for our black balls. All that is necessary is if we believe the petitioner will not make a good Mason. After the fact?  Thorny issue. I have to wonder why a male to female trans would want to stay except to make a fuss.


Well, we never have members of our lodges who only seem to attend just to make a fuss, do we?


----------



## Glen Cook (Jul 7, 2015)

Companion Joe said:


> It doesn't have the same impact out of context and all together. Sorry, what can I say? I still write on actual paper using a fountain pen!


Oh, geez. I need to go scrub my frontal lobe.


----------



## Companion Joe (Jul 7, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> Oh, geez. I need to go scrub my frontal lobe.



Why would you need to do that because I was taking a self-deprecating jab at myself by pointing out I was having technical difficulties? I initially tried to post the two photos and the tweet but failed because I wasn't sure how to and didn't do it correctly the first time. I followed that by a comment indicating that ultimately, I am more adept at using a pen, ink, and paper more than computers.


----------



## Glen Cook (Jul 7, 2015)

Because of the images.  I criticize no one's tech skills, as I couldn't even master an Android device


----------



## Companion Joe (Jul 7, 2015)

Oh, gotcha. I'm slow in more ways than one, apparently. I thought it was a comment directed at me saying I use a fountain pen.


----------



## Bill Lins (Jul 7, 2015)

jdmadsen said:


> I pretty sure those are just fat dudes...lol


On behalf of fat dudes everywhere, I resemble that remark!


----------



## Glen Cook (Jul 7, 2015)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> On behalf of fat dudes everywhere, I resemble that remark!



I prefer "well nourished,".


----------



## Glen Cook (Jul 7, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> I have some contact with such a group and as you might expect they are more interested in whether the brethren are upright and of good will.  Certainly there has been complete acceptance of a lesbian couple in one of the local lodges.
> 
> The transgender issue for Freemasonry seems only to arise from the male-only rule.
> 
> ...



Well, I also suspect co-masons would be more welcoming of transgender, but I'm not convinced it has anything to do with looking for the upright,  I know of a State GL Mason expelled for his abusive behavior who was accepted in their ranks. 

You assume G-d cares if Lodges close. I don't believe He does.


----------



## Rob_Eades (Jul 11, 2015)

This subject becomes a moot point in Virginia.  The petition has a statement concerning gender at birth and continuance as a male that is verified as true with the petitioners signature and addresses several items, including convictions.


----------



## hanzosbm (Jul 11, 2015)

Rob_Eades said:


> This subject becomes a moot point in Virginia.  The petition has a statement concerning gender at birth and continuance as a male that is verified as true with the petitioners signature and addresses several items, including convictions.


Very interesting.  Brother Eades, do you happen to know when this statement came about?  I would think that the transgender aspect is a relatively recent phenomena so it stands to reason that the statement is recent as well.  It seems like it was made long enough ago however that it wasn't in reaction to all the recent media attention.


----------



## Rob_Eades (Jul 11, 2015)

It came into effect in 2014, prior to all of the current hoopla.  Mandatory background checks have been put into effect as well.  These measures have already shown to be beneficial and have shown no affect on the number of petitioners as far as I know.  We're in a different time and place and it seems to be the order of the day the allow morals and public decency to be wash away with the words and text of what we used to call silver tongued Devils.  Hence, anything seems to be justified almost on a whim.  It's time now that Masonry stand steadfast to its principles and this is a step in maintaining in that direction.  Candidates for Freemasonry don't join just one Lodge, they join them all, therefore we all must look well to the Westgate.


----------



## GKA (Jul 31, 2015)

The key to this dilemma is in the first degree ritual, A Man freeborn as such
this clarifies it for me.


----------



## Ripcord22A (Jul 31, 2015)

True but the free born doesnt say anything towards being born a man......trans things will tell you that they are men......but i agree...i would black ball all day long


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 1, 2015)

GKA said:


> The key to this dilemma is in the first degree ritual, A Man freeborn as such
> this clarifies it for me.


Not all rituals use this language.  None of mine do.


----------



## Ripcord22A (Aug 1, 2015)

Hmm thats interesting...both mine do.....


----------



## pointwithinacircle2 (Aug 1, 2015)

I see being Transgender as a conflict between what one thinks/feels and their physical reality. If a person cannot bring their thinking and feeling into alignment with physical reality they have a huge problem within their self. I consider Freemasonry to be, like geometry, the science studying of reality so that I can better adjust my thinking and feeling to what is real.


----------



## GKA (Aug 2, 2015)

It pains me to see people so distressed as to their perceptions of who they are vs who they think they should be.
If we can ever get past the physical to see our brothers and sisters as the true spirits they are without the excess baggage they carry, there may be hope for the human race.


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 2, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Hmm thats interesting...both mine do.....


They use "as such"?


----------



## Ripcord22A (Aug 2, 2015)

I dont think that is what he was saying....pretty sure he was saying ""a man freeborn" as such this clarifies it for me" meaning it says "a man free born" amd that settles it for him.  I thought u meant that ur jurisdictions dont use a "man freeborn"


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 2, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> I dont think that is what he was saying....pretty sure he was saying ""a man freeborn" as such this clarifies it for me" meaning it says "a man free born" amd that settles it for him.  I thought u meant that ur jurisdictions dont use a "man freeborn"


Ahh.  In that case it doesn't make sense to me.  The ritual language doesn't say "born a man."  Rather it expresses the present state of sexuality, modified by the condition of liberty at birth.  

Further, it only solves half the problem, if you will.  Part of the query is the MTF transgendered  member.  The interpretation of "born a man" would seem to allow the member, or a petitioner to reman.  

No, Emulation doesn't use that term.


----------



## Rob_Eades (Aug 2, 2015)

NZ-Freemason said:


> I agree. Its no secret that here in New Zealand we fancy ourselves quite "progressive" (take from that what you will), but if a unilateral decision was made by the Grand Lodge of New Zealand to accept all transgendered people the craft would probably lose 90% of her members.
> 
> If I had to guess, I would say that Freemasonry in New Zealand would adopt a "Don't ask, don't tell" approach. Issues like this would be put firmly in the too hard basket.




If a Grand Lodge were to create an acceptance either by intentional lax policy or especially open allowance of homosexuality or transgender Masons, the greatest majority of Grand Lodges worldwide would declare those Grand Lodges clandestine.  There has already been indications that this is the path that most Grand Lodges will follow.


----------



## GKA (Aug 2, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> Ahh.  In that case it doesn't make sense to me.  The ritual language doesn't say "born a man."  Rather it expresses the present state of sexuality, modified by the condition of liberty at birth.
> 
> As it is part of the EA ritual, I will not quote it exactly, expecting those who read it to understand.


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 3, 2015)

Rob_Eades said:


> If a Grand Lodge were to create an acceptance either by intentional lax policy or especially open allowance of homosexuality or transgender Masons, the greatest majority of Grand Lodges worldwide would declare those Grand Lodges clandestine.  There has already been indications that this is the path that most Grand Lodges will follow.


Citation regarding homosexuality? This not a recognition standard of either the CGMNA or the Home GLs. I know a number of gay Masons, including one who is married to another brother.  One of my jobs in the fraternity is recognition, and I've no heard this mooted.


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 3, 2015)

pls note, I did not make the statement:

"I will not quote it exactly, expecting those who read it to understand."


----------



## GKA (Aug 3, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> pls note, I did not make the statement:
> 
> "I will not quote it exactly, expecting those who read it to understand."


No, I did


----------



## rpbrown (Aug 3, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> I prefer "well nourished,".


I like it and now that is my new excuse


----------



## fmasonlog (Aug 4, 2015)

The problem is: would she be a mason or an eastern star lol.


----------



## Bro. S.Brown (Aug 4, 2015)

The chromosome makeup can never be altered...regardless of surgical modifications!  Maybe I'm a little too old school...but this move to embrace gender reassignment or anything similar to it is an infinite slippery slope.


----------



## mrpierce17 (Aug 4, 2015)

Bro. S.Brown said:


> The chromosome makeup can never be altered...regardless of surgical modifications!  Maybe I'm a little too old school...but this move to embrace gender reassignment or anything similar to it is an infinite slippery slope.


I totally agree


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 4, 2015)

fmasonlog said:


> The problem is: would she be a mason or an eastern star lol.


The the conundrum begins again as to which office can be held. by self  chosen sexual identity


----------

