# Monthly Dues



## Brother JC (Feb 20, 2017)

Does anyone here have the option to pay monthly dues? I'm looking to put this into place in my lodge and wondered if anyone had firsthand stories.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 20, 2017)

No, both lodges that I belong to collect dues yearly. Haven't heard of monthly dues in Kentucky but that doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist.


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## Scoops (Feb 20, 2017)

We do.

It's done by standing order into the Lodge bank account and the Treasurer keeps tabs on who's paid what.


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## Ripcord22A (Feb 20, 2017)

I dont know if its officially allowed but I've always heard.... "we can work something out"

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## Carl_in_NH (Feb 20, 2017)

On a small scale for those that might be tight on funds - no worries, we can work something out.

For every member of the lodge? Just more work for Secretary and Treasurer to handle, track, and maintain this accounting. Isn't it hard enough to get someone to take those offices without making more work for them? How about the notion of a dues card and being current? Want the Tyler to have to validate whether each member is current _this month_ before admitting them to the Lodge room? How about visiting other lodges or GL? Are you 'in good standing'? How would they be able to validate this? 

It would be one thing if yearly dues were $1K, but in the case of my lodge it would be $11.70 per month, meeting for 10 months out of 12. No, I'm not a fan of this idea at all.


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## Brother JC (Feb 20, 2017)

To get it started you would have to be up to date... say you are paid up for '17... you start paying '18 now. That way you have paid in full prior to 1/1/2018.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 20, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> I dont know if its officially allowed but I've always heard.... "we can work something out"





Carl_in_NH said:


> On a small scale for those that might be tight on funds - no worries, we can work something out.


Yeah, I have heard this for a Brother that may be having financial problems. Just haven't heard of monthly dues payment as policy.


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## Carl_in_NH (Feb 20, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> To get it started you would have to be up to date... say you are paid up for '17... you start paying '18 now. That way you have paid in full prior to 1/1/2018.



OK - that makes sense to me in terms of what the intent is. I was thinking a few moments ago about asking what the issue was that was intending to be solved by this instead of just being negative and shooting holes in it.

I think it just comes down to extra work for the Secretary and Treasurer (at least in my jurisdiction, since you pay money to the Secretary who makes a record of the transaction and then hands it to the Treasurer, who handles the back end banking).

I'm hard pressed to see a large upside, but I'm also the old-school type that doesn't want a car loan - I just keep saving money monthly until I can afford the purchase outright instead of taking on debt. Would there be enough members taking advantage of this? Why wouldn't they just keep the money in the bank or put the cash in their sock drawer until dues were due again?


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## Brother_Steve (Feb 20, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> Does anyone here have the option to pay monthly dues? I'm looking to put this into place in my lodge and wondered if anyone had firsthand stories.


Talk to the Master and Secretary. See if anything exists in the constitution or by-laws that forbids it. If not, make a motion to be able to pay monthly.

That is going to be on the secretary to keep track of it. He may not want that extra work load.


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## Carl_in_NH (Feb 20, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> That is going to be on the secretary to keep track of it. He may not want that extra work load.



I would argue that there's also workload for the Treasurer - after all, everything paid in advance is 'next year's money' and shouldn't be utilized on any expenditures this year without the potential impact being understood. Either a separate account for these advanced funds, or additional paperwork / tally kept to understand what belonged in a category to support next year's expenses.


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## Brother_Steve (Feb 20, 2017)

We have 200 members. Now, obviously not all 200 are going to be paying monthly, but could you imagine the potential?

We have 30 regulars that come out per meeting. Could you imagine generating thirty extra chits per meeting? The Sec and Treasurer would have zero lodge life.


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## Brother JC (Feb 20, 2017)

This is actually being pushed by GL, along with the unified software for the books. Obviously it won't become a requirement, but the lodges using it so far are reporting fewer NPDs. We'll see how it flies.


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## Scoops (Feb 20, 2017)

Our Secretary and Treasurer actively encourage this as they hate having to have words with people who are at risk of going NPD.

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## Carl_in_NH (Feb 20, 2017)

If it works, then it works - that's great. Sounds like with a complete package of supporting software it minimizes the impact on the Lodge officers.

I must say that I'm somewhat surprised that this would impact the NPD issue. It's likely just my myopic view from a small lodge that makes me think that. We have some members with NPD issues. While there's one brother who's short on funds and who attends every meeting, the vast majority of NPDs we encounter (all of the remaining cases, as a matter of fact) are brothers we never see in lodge. After mail and telephone contact most become current again with a fairly substantial lump sum payment, or we end up working with them to make an arrangement for some partial amount of the dues in arrears and settle on that, based on their individual financial situation. In both cases, no one is proactively offering to pay small amounts - either before or after they are due - they wait until they can roll it up in a single payment and set the situation right, or end up with an NPD suspension. I agree the NPD discussions, votes to suspend, and suspensions are something none of us want to engage in - but that activity is mandated by our GL for those members who don't pay their dues (the GL places a limit on how long a brother can be in arrears before we must suspend for NPD).

I'd really like to understand if the NPD reduction under this program is maintained in the long-term, or if it's just a statistical anomaly with only short term data available.  Additional data - such as whether those using the program regularly attend lodge or not - would also help fill out the story.

I like programs that work; I like them better when I understand exactly why. Such is the mindset of an engineer.


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## Bloke (Feb 20, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> Does anyone here have the option to pay monthly dues? I'm looking to put this into place in my lodge and wondered if anyone had firsthand stories.



One of my lodge has monthly payment. Bear in mind our dues are $320 PA.

From an administrator side, it turns one transaction in 12. We have about 45 members, most still pay annually. It does make the cost less notable in a family's cash flow, but annual payment is simply a question of planning on behalf of the member. I paid 1 lodge in a single payment, but the other ($370 PA ) I paid in 4 installments but as a reliable guy I keep on top of dues. 

Where we have found it good is for recovering dues in arrears. $50 per month as a direct credit is manageable for most bros and also reduces arrears.

One thing to note, it's all done electronically.... reduces the physical work for all and creates backup record for all. It's actually been many years since I've had a receipt for dues, banking records providing the same proof.... for guys in arrears, statements do get issued, often annually.

I would use months dues only for remediation in situations of financial distress and dues which have fallen in arrears where the person needs help managing cash flow...


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## Brother JC (Feb 20, 2017)

My lodge is very small so chasing dues isn't the biggest challenge, but our Secretary still bemoans the inevitable "last dues cards." I think the first step is to get proficient with GL's software and make electronic payments a reality, then we can start looking at options.
From a *new* Treasurer's standpoint I look forward to a system that I can use to post, reconcile, and transmit to GL with a few simple clicks. It's very similar to what I do at work all day (buy, ship, receive, sell, ship, and never touch). With an online payment system it's even easier, whether a Brother pays annually, quarterly, or monthly.
From the standpoint of a low-end working class Joe, I'd rather have a $25 a month payment than another end of the year balloon. At least TMS and the R+C College have off due dates.

Sidebar: Our GL merely states that dues will be paid by 1/1. It makes no stipulation to how that is to be accomplished.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 21, 2017)

Carl_in_NH said:


> I think it just comes down to extra work for the Secretary and Treasurer (at least in my jurisdiction, since you pay money to the Secretary who makes a record of the transaction and then hands it to the Treasurer, who handles the back end banking).





Brother_Steve said:


> That is going to be on the secretary to keep track of it. He may not want that extra work load.





Carl_in_NH said:


> I would argue that there's also workload for the Treasurer - after all, everything paid in advance is 'next year's money' and shouldn't be utilized on any expenditures this year without the potential impact being understood. Either a separate account for these advanced funds, or additional paperwork / tally kept to understand what belonged in a category to support next year's expenses.





Brother_Steve said:


> We have 30 regulars that come out per meeting. Could you imagine generating thirty extra chits per meeting? The Sec and Treasurer would have zero lodge life.


Hadn't looked at it this way.


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## CLewey44 (Feb 21, 2017)

This may have been brought up, but Scoop's apron appears to be of the European persuasion.  If so, and correct me if I'm wrong, I've always heard their dues are quite a bit more than typical dues in the U.S. If so, then it may not be a bad idea to have them on a monthly basis, as an option. I've heard some dues here as low as $20-30 a year. I'm sure some are way more, T.O. specifically, but you do get what you pay for.  I would say, if you're struggling to pay $30 a year, or even $100-300 per year, you may need to hold off on giving your money to a fraternity.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 21, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> I would say, if you're struggling to pay $30 a year, or even $100-300 per year, you may need to hold off on giving your money to a fraternity.


Agreed!


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## Glen Cook (Feb 21, 2017)

A new one just popped up with the name registered 10 February. The Sovereign GL of Austria.


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## Scoops (Feb 21, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> This may have been brought up, but Scoop's apron appears to be of the European persuasion.  If so, and correct me if I'm wrong, I've always heard their dues are quite a bit more than typical dues in the U.S. If so, then it may not be a bad idea to have them on a monthly basis, as an option. I've heard some dues here as low as $20-30 a year. I'm sure some are way more, T.O. specifically, but you do get what you pay for.  I would say, if you're struggling to pay $30 a year, or even $100-300 per year, you may need to hold off on giving your money to a fraternity.


Indeed I do hail from merry UGLE-land. Subs in my lodge are £160pa. It's certainly easier to pay £13-£14 a month than the full amount, especially as they're due around Xmas, but it's mostly the convenience that I like. It allows me to set up the standing order and then forget about it (plus the wife doesn't complain so much at a smaller outgoing...)

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## CLewey44 (Feb 21, 2017)

Definitely. I've heard some in other countries exceeding $1000 per year or maybe much more. Not sure. I would not be opposed to it for sure. The question would be, if you're a month behind, do you get banned until you pay? Do they stamp your dues card monthly maybe? Or is it treated as if you paid it annually and you're good until the end of the year; more of a honor system?


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## Bloke (Feb 21, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> Definitely. I've heard some in other countries exceeding $1000 per year or maybe much more. Not sure. I would not be opposed to it for sure. The question would be, if you're a month behind, do you get banned until you pay? Do they stamp your dues card monthly maybe? Or is it treated as if you paid it annually and you're good until the end of the year; more of a honor system?



Here, Dues are paid annually in line with the Standard Australian Financial Year. You cannot be installed in office unless financial (no one really checks). After being 12 months in arrears, the lodge can exclude you (they almost never do, unless you have disappeared), but once three years in arrears, the Lodge is Constitutionally Obliged to Exclude you.,


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## CLewey44 (Feb 21, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Here, Dues are paid annually in line with the Standard Australian Financial Year. You cannot be installed in office unless financial (no one really checks). After being 12 months in arrears, the lodge can exclude you (they almost never do, unless you have disappeared), but once three years in arrears, the Lodge is Constitutionally Obliged to Exclude you.,



That makes sense for sure.


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## CLewey44 (Feb 21, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> Definitely. I've heard some in other countries exceeding $1000 per year or maybe much more. Not sure. I would not be opposed to it for sure. The question would be, if you're a month behind, do you get banned until you pay? Do they stamp your dues card monthly maybe? Or is it treated as if you paid it annually and you're good until the end of the year; more of a honor system?




If I may clarify on this, when I said "I would not be oppose to it", I meant the monthly payments. I would be opposed to $1000 a year dues lol.


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## Brother JC (Feb 21, 2017)

Again, you'd be paying for the following year, so if you missed one you have to catch up before 1/1.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 22, 2017)

Bloke said:


> once three years in arrears, the Lodge is Constitutionally Obliged to Exclude you.,


Here in Kentucky after 2 years NPD a Brother is suspended. I believe that they are expelled after 3 years. Have not yet witnessed the latter.


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## Companion Joe (Feb 26, 2017)

As the treasurer for three York Rite bodies, I can say with certainty that paying dues monthly would be a nightmare for the treasurer and secretary.


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## Brother JC (Feb 26, 2017)

Companion Joe said:


> As the treasurer for three York Rite bodies, I can say with certainty that paying dues monthly would be a nightmare for the treasurer and secretary.


Even with electronic payments and accounting software linked to the grand recorder's records?


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 26, 2017)

Companion Joe said:


> As the treasurer for three York Rite bodies, I can say with certainty that paying dues monthly would be a nightmare for the treasurer and secretary.


Don't have any experience in this field but this sounds logical to me. Instead of annually (once) you're doing it monthly (12 times).


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## Companion Joe (Feb 26, 2017)

I'm sure there is some electronic method that would streamline it, but I still see it being a logistical train wreck.
At least here, every penny and transaction has multiple hands it has to pass through recorded steps.
For instance: you pay your dues to the secretary, the secretary has to record how much/who from/for what purpose in his ledger, he then passes the money to the treasurer who writes the secretary a receipt, then the treasurer has to take it to the bank and record it in his books. At the end of the year, an audit has to be done where both the secretary's and treasurer's books balance. If they don't, the audit committee has to back line by line to figure out where the discrepancy is. The more transactions you have, the greater the chance for something to get off.


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## Bloke (Feb 26, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> Even with electronic payments and accounting software linked to the grand recorder's records?


Do folk seriously have this sort of system?

Here, you're sophisticated if u run myob, most use MSExcel spreadsheets  which is fine. Hell, hard copy would be fine, but most use some form of electronic payment.. last fundraiser we even had fpos


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## Ripcord22A (Feb 26, 2017)

Myob? Fpos?

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## Warrior1256 (Feb 26, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Myob? Fpos?


Same question here. I'm not very soft ware savy.


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## Ripcord22A (Feb 26, 2017)

Im assuming fpos is something Point of Sale

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## Bloke (Feb 26, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Same question here. I'm not very soft ware savy.


Myob - accounting software, global market, but it's an Australian company.

FPOS is shorthand for eftpos https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFTPOS# I wonder what you call it in the States  ? If I was paying a bill by card in a restaurant, I'd use fpos (eftpos... you know Aussi es r weird, we love to shorten words just like you Yanks love to leave letters out in yours..) if paying at the table, we'd use a mobile fpos. It's probably I just don't know the American term for a machine that you use to pay by Credit or Debit  Card


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## Companion Joe (Feb 26, 2017)

Nothing I belong to - and I have enough dues cards to play poker - is set up to take electronic payments. You write a check or hand the secretary some cash. 

I pay all my personal bills online, but it seems to me for lodge dues, the old tried and true method just seems to work. Any electronic method I've ever encountered doesn't do it for free. Somebody gets a cut. That means either the lodge is going to lose some revenue or dues are going to have to be raised to offset it.


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## Ripcord22A (Feb 26, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Myob - accounting software, global market, but it's an Australian company.
> 
> FPOS is shorthand for eftpos https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFTPOS# I wonder what you call it in the States  ? If I was paying a bill by card in a restaurant, I'd use fpos (eftpos... you know Aussi es r weird, we love to shorten words just like you Yanks love to leave letters out in yours..) if paying at the table, we'd use a mobile fpos. It's probably I just don't know the American term for a machine that you use to pay by Credit or Debit  Card


Actually it's just called eft or pos. Usually EFT is what will show if you pay a bill online and POS is what will be shown on your statement if you pay at a restaurant. But usually you only see that if it is a smaller restaurant. If I use my card at McDonald's I just see McDonald's on my bank statement.

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## Ripcord22A (Feb 26, 2017)

Companion Joe said:


> Nothing I belong to - and I have enough dues cards to play poker - is set up to take electronic payments. You write a check or hand the secretary some cash.
> 
> I pay all my personal bills online, but it seems to me for lodge dues, the old tried and true method just seems to work. Any electronic method I've ever encountered doesn't do it for free. Somebody gets a cut. That means either the lodge is going to lose some revenue or dues are going to have to be raised to offset it.


My Lodge here uses PayPal or the square and I think the square only charges like $0.25 so the couple times I've paid dues I've had them charge me that $0.25

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## Bloke (Feb 26, 2017)

We use EFT, it's cheaper and more effective than cheques.

I'm not a member of any organization which does not allow it's members to pay electronically. In my mother lodge and the Temple Trust, EFT is greatly preferred.

For events with tickets, most lodges use Trybooking.


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## Brother JC (Feb 26, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Do folk seriously have this sort of system?
> 
> Here, you're sophisticated if u run myob, most use MSExcel spreadsheets  which is fine. Hell, hard copy would be fine, but most use some form of electronic payment.. last fundraiser we even had fpos


That's what we're getting away from. The new system will cut the steps down to three; the Brother pays online, the Sec and Treas get notification. Sec posts on his software, Treas on his. Both are linked to GL books. *boom* This enables Brothers to pay as best suits there needs.
The tough part is getting lodges to discover the 21st Century.


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## Bloke (Feb 27, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> That's what we're getting away from. The new system will cut the steps down to three; the Brother pays online, the Sec and Treas get notification. Sec posts on his software, Treas on his. Both are linked to GL books. *boom* This enables Brothers to pay as best suits there needs.
> The tough part is getting lodges to discover the 21st Century.



Very cool. That would take off here.


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## cemab4y (Mar 2, 2017)

In Pennsylvania, members can remit dues through www.payliance.com and there is an option to pay the dues monthly. You can arrange a EFT from your checking account. Neat.


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## Brother JC (Mar 2, 2017)

An informal survey at our school of perfection showed that most of the Brethren only write checks for one thing any more... dues, and lodge dinners.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 3, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> An informal survey at our school of perfection showed that most of the Brethren only write checks for one thing any more... dues, and lodge dinners.


This I can believe, lol.


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## Canadian Paul (Mar 3, 2017)

Cheques? We have brethren who still pay in cash!


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## Bill Lins (Mar 3, 2017)

Canadian Paul said:


> Cheques? We have brethren who still pay in cash!


As do we.


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## Bloke (Mar 3, 2017)

Same.... but a cheque is better when a 80 year old forgets where his wad of bills comes from lol


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 4, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Same.... but a cheque is better when a 80 year old forgets where his wad of bills comes from lol


Lol! Me in twenty years!


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