# No Women in the Frat but Could we Share our Rituals



## rhitland

Having Women in our Frat probably is not the best thing I agree but could we not have a Masonic Sorority that has the same GL laws, same Lodge setup, & exact same rituals just Women only but where we are all one unified body and could discover the Mysteries through Masonry together?


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## Blake Bowden

I would probably support having a separate branch of Freemasonry for Women.


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## cmoreno85tx

I'm down with that.  Awesome idea !!


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## Nate C.

There is already just such an organization. It's called Order of Eastern Star.  I tend to be pretty open minded about progressive ideas, but I don't think making Masonry fully co-ed is a step in the right direction.


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## david918

There is already a grand lodge of Women masons http://www.owf.org.uk/
David Broman
Secy&PM El Campo#918
MC Wharton#621


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## owls84

I am for an all women sorority of masonry. I think they should be able to have the lessons that we as Masons are taught. But I don't think they should mix in Lodge at least anytime soon. Really no reason just don't know about that.


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## cpmorgan2

Why cant we drop this women in Masonry talk? I am not sexist. But in all 3 degrees we do something that a real woman would not do in front of any other than her spouse, not a room full of men or a room full of women either. Think about what that thing is that I'm talking about...


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## jonesvilletexas

No, not at this time, our work would have to change and I am not for changing any of the work inregard to woman.


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## Texas_Justice85

no and no


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## owls84

What if women had their own sorority that was strictly women with Masonic principals. Much like the Eastern Star but only women? I mean looks like the concensus is NO for women in Blue Lodge.


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## jonesvilletexas

Brother Texas, are you the one that will have his MM degree Friday night at the Grand Lodge Temple?
If so I might be working in the degree M:.W:. Griffin and I talked back in July but the committee has not told me anything as of yet, but you can bet I will be there, would not miss it for the world.


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## jonesvilletexas

Brother Blake I love your new Logo, with the Red, White and blue, looks great. Can I use it in some work I am doing on other web sites?


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## Blake Bowden

Sure, I have a larger logo if you prefer.


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## gortex6

rhitland said:


> Having Women in our Frat probably is not the best thing I agree but could we not have a Masonic Sorority that has the same GL laws, same Lodge setup, & exact same rituals just Women only but where we are all one unified body and could discover the Mysteries through Masonry together?



There is such a thing, but they are irregular.
Grand Orient of US
Co-masonry
Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis-Misraim


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## Texas_Justice85

jonesvilletexas said:


> Brother Texas, are you the one that will have his MM degree Friday night at the Grand Lodge Temple?
> If so I might be working in the degree M:.W:. Griffin and I talked back in July but the committee has not told me anything as of yet, but you can bet I will be there, would not miss it for the world.



I sure am. I cannot tell you how excited I am and how greatful that my brothers have done this for me.


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## Texas_Justice85

owls84 said:


> What if women had their own sorority that was strictly women with Masonic principals. Much like the Eastern Star but only women? I mean looks like the concensus is NO for women in Blue Lodge.



Some people call it the PTA


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## Curtis Wilson

There is an organization called Co-Masonry of America.  It has lodges throughout North America.  I found it when searching though Colorado and stumbled across it.  It was not AF &AM.  This is still Men only, with outlets for Women in OES.


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## eagle1966

don't we "make good "men" better"?


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## jwardl

Women are certainly every bit as capable of learning and living by masonic principals as men -- but as others have said, many already do, in the OES.

Since female petitioners must be related to a master mason in good standing, however, the opportunity for ladies to join is a bit more restrictive than the blue lodge is for us men. OTOH, their petitions are much shorter and less detailed than ours. Perhaps a female branch of masonry itself wouldn't be a bad thing, but it would open up a whole new can of worms. For example:

* Would we fraternallly recognize them, and they, us? SHOULD we? If so, what about co-masons, who admit both genders, but are generally considered clandestine?
* Might very well cause a major decline in membership of the OES -- perhaps even a fatal one.
* Would they, like the Star ladies, be sisters -- or like us, brothers?
* Could we/should we go beyond merely recognizing them -- and consider them in amity? Doing such a thing would effectively make blue lodges co-ed anyway, wouldn't it?

Personally, I'm not for much of anything that changes the current definition of what makes a Texas blue lodge regular -- not shortening the work, nor admitting women. Our tradition is what defines us, and sets us apart from all the other fraternal/public groups out there. We don't ned to be more like the rest of them.


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## scottmh59

Texas_Justice85 said:


> Some people call it the PTA



lol:beer:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmExAiCcaPk"]YouTube - Helen Reddy I Am Woman LIVE Midnight Special 1975[/ame]

woman are in numbers too big to ignore


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## Nate Riley

kg_hart said:


> Forgive the harsh language, please. Not only NO but HELL NO. Please drop the subject as this is a frat.



Thank You!

For those of you who are for this, are there women who are putting pressure on you or asking why they can’t do it?

I have known quite a few women who know or are related to Masons, and I have never heard met on that wanted to be a Mason.  Likewise, I have know plenty of women, who wanted to "infiltrate" the man's world, whether it was being allowed to join Augusta National or go to the “men only” BBQ that the Optimists put on (my sister being one of the type). And I have never heard one of them say, what I really want to do is join a Masonic Lodge.

My point is I can’t imagine that many women actually want to join, so why are some Mason’s wanting it.


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## MGM357

We might need to take a moment and remember a small part of our obligation. My brothers this is how buildings crumble and ships sink, with small cracks in the foundation. Didn't we all promise and swear...


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## JTM

i'll go with a big no here.

no mason today can share the ritual, anyway, and not break the obligation.


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## MGM357

JTM said:


> i'll go with a big no here.
> 
> no mason today can share the ritual, anyway, and not break the obligation.



No Mason today, tomorrow, or yesterday. My Brothers the wisest of men created this Fraternity. The obligations that we have taken were created for the Fraternity to be everlasting. Our rituals should NOT be share with anyone, except it be a true and lawful BROTHER. Not a wife, mother, sister, daughter, or any other form of a female!!


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## owls84

jwardl said:


> Women are certainly every bit as capable of learning and living by masonic principals as men -- but as others have said, many already do, in the OES.
> 
> Since female petitioners must be related to a master mason in good standing, however, the opportunity for ladies to join is a bit more restrictive than the blue lodge is for us men. OTOH, their petitions are much shorter and less detailed than ours. Perhaps a female branch of masonry itself wouldn't be a bad thing, but it would open up a whole new can of worms. For example:
> 
> * Would we fraternallly recognize them, and they, us? SHOULD we? If so, what about co-masons, who admit both genders, but are generally considered clandestine?
> * Might very well cause a major decline in membership of the OES -- perhaps even a fatal one.
> * Would they, like the Star ladies, be sisters -- or like us, brothers?
> * Could we/should we go beyond merely recognizing them -- and consider them in amity? Doing such a thing would effectively make blue lodges co-ed anyway, wouldn't it?
> 
> Personally, I'm not for much of anything that changes the current definition of what makes a Texas blue lodge regular -- not shortening the work, nor admitting women. Our tradition is what defines us, and sets us apart from all the other fraternal/public groups out there. We don't ned to be more like the rest of them.



This is exactly how I feel. As far as the ones that say no because this is a Fraternity I don't agree with that. Our organization "The Grand Lodge of Texas AF&AM" is the fraternity but Masonry is a lifestyle. Bigger than any Frat would imagine. I believe everyone, man, woman, and child, should be taught the beliefs in Masonry but the rituals, probably not. I also won't be up in arms if women started an org like our blue lodge. I mean lets be honest the ritual is out there. I have seen it about 3 times in the past week. Not to even mention the countless books and websites that have it. In time if an orginization of women have a ritual similar to ours and have similar requirements ask for our recognition would this be a bad thing to recognize? I say no. We are all on this planet together and if they have the same requirements and the same teachings why wouldn't we? 

Note: I am not advocating telling the ritual to a non-mason but why would we have to when it is there anyway?


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## HKTidwell

owls84 said:


> We are all on this planet together and if they have the same requirements and the same teachings why wouldn't we?
> 
> Note: I am not advocating telling the ritual to a non-mason but why would we have to when it is there anyway?



How can you have the same requirements and teachings if the base elements have to be changed to conform to a new group?  As has been mentioned before in this thread there is a thing called co-masonry it is considered clandestine.  In my opinion the support for creating/recognizing them is against so many of the things that we must always be cognizant of.  I won't get into how but all you have to do is remember back to things you have learned.


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## owls84

What I am saying is every year all the GM's from all the jurisdictions meet and one of the things they discuss is recognition of new jurisdictions that have done what is required to be mentioned. A committee makes recommendations to the GMs on whether or not they meet the requirements for Recognition. What I am saing is every organization that we currently recognize had to be approved at sometime. If a group of women went to Amazon.com and got rituals that are similar to ours and began teaching "masonic" beliefs and etc. and met the criteria of an organization to be recognized why would we stop them? Because they are women? I think that is a very bad answer. Can a woman's mind not behold the "secrets". I mean it is way bigger than any mode of recognition or how we initiate a candidate. We are talking about sybolism and making the world a better place by making each other better. Why would we stop a woman from taking it upon herself to use resources that are already there to make an organization that does great things just like us? 

I am not talking about co-masonry but an all woman lodge. No men. The only requirement that would change it is a woman not a man. I just see a problem. I guess it is true that all MEN are created equal. Just not women.


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## MGM357

In my eyes, lipstick on a pig doesn't make it any prettier!! In the case, CHANGE is not a good idea!! 

The women already have a Masonic organization without men. The Social Order of the Beauceant. Their rituals are not revealed to any man in Masonry. Our Commandery meets in the same building with ladies and not one of us know what they do.

Why don't we just sit back and enjoy what Masonry has to offer and stop trying to change it all the time. I hope when/if my son decides to desire light in our Craft and becomes a true and lawful Brother, he can relish in the same traditional values that have been bestowed upon myself and all Brothers before him.


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## Nate Riley

MGM357 said:


> In my eyes, lipstick on a pig doesn't make it any prettier!! In the case, CHANGE is not a good idea!!
> 
> The women already have a Masonic organization without men. The Social Order of the Beauceant. Their rituals are not revealed to any man in Masonry. Our Commandery meets in the same building with ladies and not one of us know what they do.
> 
> *Why don't we just sit back and enjoy what Masonry has to offer and stop trying to change it all the time. *I hope when/if my son decides to desire light in our Craft and becomes a true and lawful Brother, he can relish in the same traditional values that have been bestowed upon myself and all Brothers before him.



Right on! One of the great things about freemasonry is that it is ancient.


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## owls84

To say we have an ancient riual that has not changed I disagree with. Texas' Masonic Ritual has changes several times. The teachings beliefs and symbols are ancient. Texas rituals used to be based on LA then they were changed to match that of TN. Even at late as the 1950's ritualistic words have been changed by the Grand West to meet recomendations of various committees. 

I am not saying anything about changing the ritual or beliefs in my previous posts. I never said we should let women in the door to sit in a lodge with us. All I am saying is if an organization meets our criteria as a masonic organization why would we not allow them to be recognized? Trust me I do not think the teachings or ritual need to change at all and I think that is what you are seeing on this site. No one wants the core of masonry to change but what some people want to change is the administration (lack of a better term) side. The part that that was changed to begin with. 

I ask because I do not know:
As far as SOOB is that not a christian based organization with it being a part of the York Rite? So would a non-christian woman be able to join? Would her husband have to be in the York Rite?


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## MGM357

SOOB is christian based beliefs. They are Knight Templars wives, mothers, daughters, sisters, etc. The Templars, you have to claim Christ as your savior. You can be York Rite and still not be in the Commandery. So, I guess York Rite Mason's wives, who are not Christians, can belong to the OES. If I'm wrong, please someone straighten me out.

I'm just having a hard time understanding why the thought of sharing our rituals with anyone besides another brother Mason.


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## owls84

Brother I truly believe we are saying the same thing. I do not think WE (GLoTX) should start and share our rituals with anyone. I am just merely saying if there was an ALL woman org that is like SOOB but open to ALL women of any faith and it was started by women that used resources that are there to have similar rituals and they go through the correct due process to be recognized I would not have a problem with them being recognized as a all women masonic organization. We (GLoTX) should NOT give our rituals away. 

Does this make sense? I am not for "Sharing" our rituals period. But there are ways out there for people to get them without having someone from GL to teach them.


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## RedTemplar

I will not be present at nor give my consent to any such notions of including women in our rituals.


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## HKTidwell

My thought is this thread was started with the comment about sharing our rituals with women.   A few agreed with this principle while many did not, now it is becoming a conversation about well not our rituals but the rituals of another organization.  To be honest I do not care how the OES or SOOB handles their meetings or membership as long as it does not reflect poorly upon us.  If the OES would like to open their organization up to women of all faiths (I don't think it is limited to a faith) or members then so be it.

Freemasonry as I understand it is based upon Men.  The goal as I see it is to make us as men better people by symbolism, tolerance, and understanding.  If we have not accomplished that goal 100% why take on anything else.  Now some might argue that with that mentality then why do we recognize any of the other organizations or do charity work.  To be honest I can see how the other organizations tie in with that goal. One of the important things in Masonry is Family.  I can also see how the charity work is a result of masonic principles.  I do not see how worrying about people who have no tie to freemasonry, ties in.   This is like saying that we need to make all good men Masons.  How does that tie into what we are doing?  Let us focus on ourselves and our craft to make it better then it currently is.  

Let us dedicate this time to being a beacon that draws men in.  We have dwindling numbers as it is without worrying about things that do not matter.  Lets worry about being full masonic brothers with the PHA, instead of just recognizing them, lets worry about purging the lodge of bigotry, lets worry about instilling more of a desire to pursue symbolism, lets worry about taking care of our buildings and websites or any number of more important items, instead of things that have no baring on our craft due to many things you have already learned.

I hope nobody takes this in the wrong light.  This is strictly my way of seeing this topic because I see so many things that could be done that are not.  I mean we can't even get lodges to update the information on the GLoTX website (this references a comment about some lodges not updating information that was used).   How hard is that?  I know I'm rambling I just don't see this as being a high priority with so many little and some big things needing attention.  Please do not take this as being directed at anybody or any comment, it is strictly my take on this.  :behindsofa:


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## fairbanks1363pm

why are we so worried about having women in masonry?  my wife loves when i have lodge for 2 reaons. 1st she doesnt have to cook, 2nd she gets me out of her way.  in different topics several have expressed our fraternities traditions and history an the value of not changing.  This is a huge change.  I think we need to focus on masonry as the worlds greatest fraternal organization get the word out and stop trying to appease everyone.


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## Blake Bowden

bump


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## owls84

blake said:


> bump



You would. Stir the pot Blake. And to think I was at peace. :13:


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## scottmh59

woman in lodge= cleaner lodge room?


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## Traveling Man

rhitland said:


> Having Women in our Frat probably is not the best thing I agree but could we not have a Masonic Sorority that has the same GL laws, same Lodge setup, & exact same rituals just Women only but where we are all one unified body and could discover the Mysteries through Masonry together?


 
Basically â€œtheyâ€ already exist, â€œweâ€ choose not to recognise them, or the fact that they exist. â€œTheyâ€ perceive that â€œweâ€ have â€œtheâ€ perception/recognition problem. Their grand lodge laws are quite â€œliberalâ€ while ours are quite â€œantiquatedâ€œ (as in antiquity, meant as a double entandre ). Mixed lodges exist also, but can and do have their problems just as ours.


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## Wingnut

scottmh59 said:


> woman in lodge= cleaner lodge room?



DOH!  Someone went there!


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## rhitland

Wingnut said:


> DOH!  Someone went there!



Yeah you should see the Brother's bachelor pad, all the video games and movie a guy could want, even a poster of Arnold. No where even close to having a roommate much less a wife. Funny thing is though his house is clean, I mean like metrosexual clean. I keep telling him comments like that will keep him single. lol


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## scottmh59

rhitland said:


> . Funny thing is though his house is clean, I mean like metrosexual clean. lol


i even have a vacuum.
and right now there is no room for a wife,unless she doesnt own anything..cause i dont have the room for her crap.i got too many cool things that need the space:8:


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## RedTemplar

Well, if it ever happens, there certainly wont be a shortage of Sr. Deacons.


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## ddreader

come on brother, i thought i had to much idol time. you must be joking on this one. and if your not. wow! maybe you could bring it up for discussion at grand lodge, and try to muster up some support there. i sure the brothers would be more than glad to tell you what they think. life would be boring without brothers like you. keep up the good work. lol.


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## jwhoff

but ... but ... she'll find out I can wash dishes!


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## Bro. Bennett

My thoughts and opinion: If we were to recognise an all womens organization, and allowed them to operate independantly of GLoT, yet if they were fully recognised, we would have to allow them to enter our Lodge on meeting night, which in essence is allowing them to infiltrate our Fraternity. I say NO. I am not willing to share, nor admit anyone if they are not a "Brother" and if, GLoT were to allow this, I would have to demit to keep myself true to my Obligation.. I already have a major issue with some of our supposed "Bretheren" not holding the same principles and beliefs that I read about in My Bible, that being my instruction manual for life. 
We have all taken upon ourselves a duty to protect and preserve OUR principles in this Fraternity, we should stick to it, and leave this discussion alone before it causes great strife from within.
Just my humble opinion.....


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## bgs942

Thanks Bro Bennett. I too have major issues with Brethren that draw the line with a paint roller instead of a tool sharpened pencil. We must be what we expect to see.


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## Robert G

There are already masonic orders which admit both men and women and are for women only. They have been around since the late 19th century. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-Freemasonry and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry_and_women


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## JohnnyFlotsam

Bro. Bennett said:


> My thoughts and opinion: If we were to recognise an all womens organization, and allowed them to operate independantly of GLoT, yet if they were fully recognised, we would have to allow them to enter our Lodge on meeting night, which in essence is allowing them to infiltrate our Fraternity.  I say NO. I am not willing to share, nor admit anyone if they are not a  "Brother" and if, GLoT were to allow this, I would have to demit to  keep myself true to my Obligation..


"Healing" of a portion of the obligation is within the power of a Grand Master. So that argument is one that you would have to settle with no one but yourself.


> I already have a major issue with some of our supposed "Bretheren" not holding the same principles and beliefs that I read about in My Bible, that being my instruction manual for life.


 
Perhaps I am reading more into this than I should...
Are you seriously saying that you "have a problem" with any Brother who doesn't not embrace your chosen collection of religious dogma? Really?


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## Heirophant

Who's to say there isn't one already? FreemaSONry should be available to all whom are interested in it's FRATernal BROtherly Spiritual Bondage. I have no problem with it, as long as it's not 'secretly' being used to subjugate men. Believe it or not, many women have historically taken the position against our Sacred Fraternity with hints & allegations that a 'boys only' club is an 'Evil' thing. Allegations that are obviously false, however who is to say that many women don't still hold that position?


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## Dave in Waco

Heirophant said:


> Believe it or not, many women have historically taken the position against our Sacred Fraternity with hints & allegations that a 'boys only' club is an 'Evil' thing. Allegations that are obviously false, however who is to say that many women don't still hold that position?




I would have to disagree with your conclusion here.  I have a hard time believing many women would take that position otherwise they wouldn't have allowed so many of us to belong to it.


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## jhodgdon

Bro. Bennett said:
			
		

> I already have a major issue with some of our supposed "Bretheren" not holding the same principles and beliefs that I read about in My Bible, that being my instruction manual for life.


My Brother, with all due respect to your opinion, that is one of the most narrow minded statements I have ever heard. We are not all going to agree on every single theological issue which is why we are not supposed to talk about it in Lodge. Our personal religious beliefs are NOT the premise of our Brotherhood, nor the qualification of being a "Brother". I can tell you right now I probably don't agree with most of your theological views but this has no bearing on your position as my Brother. From what I understand we are more or less supposed to "agree to disagree" on minor differences in the interest of parting ways on the square in peace and harmony. Just my humble opinion... 


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## Heirophant

well...actually....older members of our Sacred Fraternity can attest to vowing never ever ever ever to talk about the Fraternity even to their family. I know it's difficult to believe, but many brothers weren't allowed to run around with the square&compass on their license plates. The original incarnation of the 'Shrine' club was a wild bunch, everybody knows that...a really wild bunch. What we can agree on is that we are both brothers and it is our duty to the longevity of the Order to address issues regarding membership. We can also agree on Peace. One of the most important attributes our Fraternity instills.


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## JohnnyFlotsam

Heirophant said:


> well...actually....older members of our Sacred Fraternity can attest to vowing never ever ever ever to talk about the Fraternity even to their family.


I am keenly interested in any references you have to support this. I don't doubt it, but I'd really like to be able to back it up.


> What we can agree on is that we are both brothers and it is our duty to the longevity of the Order to address issues regarding membership.


 If we can agree that "issues of membership" fall well below things like guarding the West Gate, providing real Masonic instruction to our members, etc., then yes, membership is an issue. On the other hand, if do the rest of that stuff right, membership will take care of itself. Really.


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## MikeMay

jwhoff said:


> but ... but ... she'll find out I can wash dishes!


 
My wife was like....:47: when she found out I could wash dishes...


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## bgs942

I am thinking  how the Bible is explained in the EA degree. I FULLY agree with Bro. Bennett's statement. I too have seen Brothers who seem to walk way out of step regarding the guidance therein and how it is explained we are to view/use the Bible as Masons.


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## jhodgdon

bgs942 said:
			
		

> I am thinking  how the Bible is explained in the EA degree. I FULLY agree with Bro. Bennett's statement. I too have seen Brothers who seem to walk way out of step regarding the guidance therein and how it is explained we are to view/use the Bible as Masons.



Maybe it's different over here 


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## JohnnyFlotsam

bgs942 said:


> I am thinking  how the Bible is explained in the EA degree. I FULLY agree with Bro. Bennett's statement. I too have seen Brothers who seem to walk way out of step regarding the guidance therein and how it is explained we are to view/use the Bible as Masons.


 Which "bible" would that be, exactly?


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## Bro. Bennett

jhodgdon said:


> My Brother, with all due respect to your opinion, that is one of the most narrow minded statements I have ever heard. We are not all going to agree on every single theological issue which is why we are not supposed to talk about it in Lodge. Our personal religious beliefs are NOT the premise of our Brotherhood, nor the qualification of being a "Brother". I can tell you right now I probably don't agree with most of your theological views but this has no bearing on your position as my Brother. From what I understand we are more or less supposed to "agree to disagree" on minor differences in the interest of parting ways on the square in peace and harmony. Just my humble opinion... 


 
Well thank you Brother, I am pretty narrow minded when it comes to my interpretation of my rule book. You are correct, we will probably never agree on our Theological view points, however, having this thread gave me an oportunity to share mine as you did you'rs. Isn't this a great thing, to allow our views to be shared with others? As for the statement I made about Bretheren not holding themselves to the same standards I choose to hold myself to, in my position in life, I have to hold myself to a standard which is above reproach, therefore I must share when led by my conscience to do so. 
Now, with that said, I hope you and everyone else has a wonderful day....


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## bgs942

The one and ONLY. Last I knew it was the Holy Bible.


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## jhodgdon

Bro. Bennett said:
			
		

> Well thank you Brother, I am pretty narrow minded when it comes to my interpretation of my rule book. You are correct, we will probably never agree on our Theological view points, however, having this thread gave me an oportunity to share mine as you did you'rs. Isn't this a great thing, to allow our views to be shared with others? As for the statement I made about Bretheren not holding themselves to the same standards I choose to hold myself to, in my position in life, I have to hold myself to a standard which is above reproach, therefore I must share when led by my conscience to do so.
> Now, with that said, I hope you and everyone else has a wonderful day....



Yes it is wonderful and I respect you for your strongly held convictions. See, we can get along! 

---------- Post added at 09:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 AM ----------




			
				JohnnyFlotsam said:
			
		

> Which "bible" would that be, exactly?



Interesting point Brother. I don't know what the GLoT says but I believe that over here a brother can be obligated on his choice of Volume of Sacred Law, including the Talmud, Veda, Koran etc.


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## bgs942

If a Brother is obligated on one of the above mention books do the words change to specify that specific volume, text, book. The beauty of faith is that there are many kinds.


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## jhodgdon

bgs942 said:
			
		

> If a Brother is obligated on one of the above mention books do the words change to specify that specific volume, text, book. The beauty of faith is that there are many kinds.



I would think so. I've never personally seen a degree done on anything except a Bible. And I completely agree. What makes our fraternity so great is that there IS such a diversity between personal beliefs/faith but yet we all still meet as Brothers


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## Bro. Bennett

jhodgdon said:


> Yes it is wonderful and I respect you for your strongly held convictions. See, we can get along!




Yes, we will always get along and perhaps even one day order the same dish in the Feast in the Great Beyond.... Be Blessed....


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## jwhoff

Brethren all.  It's not different over here or over there.  It's not our differences as masons we celebrate.  It's our brotherhood as God fearing men hoping to make this world a better place for our having been here.  

Let us approach the holy alter of freemasonry, the place of masonic light together, as one.

The three great lights in masonry:
* The Holy Bible 
*The Square
*and Compasses

One man's Holy Bible is another's Koran, Torah, Vedas ... all's sacred scriptures.

Now, that said.  Please let us practice a little free association:

sacred (holy) scriptures ... the Word...the promise
Square  (as taught to us in higher degrees) ...the earth ... the physical being
Compasses  (as taught to us in higher degrees ... the heavens (ether) ... the spiritual world

This analogy has been the route of all monotheistic religions throughout history.  For those of us who have ever worn a college graduation ring, it's known as mind, body, spirit (written in Latin.)  It is the similarity we can most all agree upon.

Let us agree to focus on our similarities and leave the differences to the profane world.  We can watch that crap on Fox News and MSNBC on those evenings we aren't blessed enough to attend lodge or simply watch a movie with the wife and kids.

God bless this fraternity, whose wisdom has graced the centuries, and all my brothers who faithfully, with knowledge, and wisdom practice the craft,

Just a few thoughts for an ole' Cajun boy living and dying in 3/4 time over here in the western parishes and Houston's rush hour traffic ... jwhoff


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## jhodgdon

jwhoff said:
			
		

> Brethren all.  It's not different over here or over there.  It's not our differences as masons we celebrate.  It's our brotherhood as God fearing men hoping to make this world a better place for our having been here.
> 
> Let us approach the holy alter of freemasonry, the place of masonic light together, as one.
> 
> The three great lights in masonry:
> * The Holy Bible
> *The Square
> *and Compasses
> 
> One man's Holy Bible is another's Koran, Torah, Vedas ... all's sacred scriptures.
> 
> Now, that said.  Please let us practice a little free association:
> 
> sacred (holy) scriptures ... the Word...the promise
> Square  (as taught to us in higher degrees) ...the earth ... the physical being
> Compasses  (as taught to us in higher degrees ... the heavens (ether) ... the spiritual world
> 
> This analogy has been the route of all monotheistic religions throughout history.  For those of us who have ever worn a college graduation ring, it's known as mind, body, spirit (written in Latin.)  It is the similarity we can most all agree upon.
> 
> Let us agree to focus on our similarities and leave the differences to the profane world.  We can watch that crap on Fox News and MSNBC on those evenings we aren't blessed enough to attend lodge or simply watch a movie with the wife and kids.
> 
> God bless this fraternity, whose wisdom has graced the centuries, and all my brothers who faithfully, with knowledge, and wisdom practice the craft,
> 
> Just a few thoughts for an ole' Cajun boy living and dying in 3/4 time over here in the western parishes and Houston's rush hour traffic ... jwhoff



Well said Brother.


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## Bill Lins

jhodgdon said:


> I don't know what the GLoT says but I believe that over here a brother can be obligated on his choice of Volume of Sacred Law, including the Talmud, Veda, Koran etc.


 
Here's what the GLoT has to say about it:

"*Art. 397. (434). Religious Belief.* 

A firm belief in the existence of God, the immortality of the soul, and the divine authenticity of the Holy Scriptures is indispensably necessary before a candidate can be initiated, but this Grand Lodge does not presume to prescribe any canonical books or what part thereof are inspired. 

It is the policy of this Grand Lodge to permit a candidate whose religious persuasion is based upon other than the Holy Bible to be obligated upon the book of his chosen faith, and same may be situated upon the Altar in front of the Holy Bible during the conferral of the three degrees of Masonry. 

In which event, all esoteric references to “The Holy Bible” during the conferral of the degree(s) and the lessons appropriate thereto shall be substituted with “The Book of your (my) Faith.”


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## JohnnyFlotsam

bgs942 said:


> The one and ONLY. Last I knew it was the Holy Bible.



With regard to your Masonic Brethren, this is patently untrue, Brother. While we customarily have a KJV Bible on the altar in most Lodge's in the U.S., it is the individual Brother's _chosen_ Volume of Sacred Law that is referred to in the portion of the EA obligation you mentioned. The Lodge is not a church. _It has no "official" religious doctrine._ Indeed, it should be plain that Freemasonry's roots are in the thought that the differences between this or that religion should not be cause for contention of any kind. The Old Charges make this point explicitly, of course, but when one considers the cultural conditions during "The Enlightenment", the rise of a society that sought to codify and teach the notion that there is a set of moral truths that transcend any one religion and that it is pointless to fight over the rest, was almost inevitable. It is no coincidence that the dominant religious authority at the time violently sought to suppress that notion, just as it is no coincidence that those cultures that have continued to hold on to the idea that moral authority can come from only one version of "religious truth", (one _book_, if you will), have remained backwards and bitter. 

We are taught to circumscribe our passions, to keep them within "due bounds". Nowhere is this teaching more important than when it regards our passion for the observance of our individual faith. Theocratic authority, the citation of this or that collection of religious lore as the basis of rule and law by which everyone must be bound, is the antithesis of such circumscription and it has no place in Freemasonry. Again, or order is founded on the explicit notion that there are moral truths that transcend any one religion. As Masons, we are charged with continuously pursuing and refining our understanding of these moral truths just as much as we are taught to pursue and refine our personal relationship with the GAOTU.


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## Beathard

Well said.


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## bgs942

I do not disagree with and respect the fact that there are many faiths and texts that support them. My point is and was that there is but one Holy Bible (all translations included) and if that is the text that one was obligted on and the faith one claims/practices, as men and Masons we should walk a closer line to our faith and guide setting the highest example. My original point  to Bro. Bennet's comment was that I too have issues with some....not all.....but some Brothers that claim a book and faith walk h yet show practices/behaviors that are far removed from both. If a Brother's belief is only in the acknowledgement of the existence of a power higher than one's self but does not practice faith of any kind, then there is no relevance to my point. I have seen my entire life and in the time since I became a Brother in this great and ancient Fraternity of ours, those that claim a high faith and practice but show things differently in their actions. I strongly believe in the right for all peoples to walk and believe in what ever power they choose whether or not it is the one I have chosen. I also have the same belief relevant to prayer in school.....let students pray to what ever Deity they believe and those who don't, don't. I do so love and respect the sharing of ideas, opinions, and otherwise!


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## JohnnyFlotsam

bgs942 said:


> My point is and was that there is but one Holy Bible (all translations included)


Actually, that would make for several editions (not "one and only one") of the Xtian Bible, each with a slightly different version of "the complete and unerring word of God". Yes, we're splitting hairs here, but that's exactly the point. All the "other stuff", over which mankind has quibled, argued, or even fought wars over, that stuff that the profane would use to set "the other" apart, or more precisely, _beneath_ himself, is that which we, as Masons, are to avoid other than as regards our own spiritual path. 



> and if that is the text that one was obligted on and the faith one claims/practices, as men and Masons we should walk a closer line to our faith and guide setting the highest example. My original point  to Bro. Bennet's comment was that I too have issues with some....not all.....but some Brothers that claim a book and faith walk h yet show practices/behaviors that are far removed from both.


No argument. The particular spiritual path a Brother choses is not our concern. That he walks it faithfully and honestly, is. Again, that walk is his to make. As a Brother we can celebrate his advancement along that path and, as best we can, we can provide guidance when he strays, but the steps are all his to make.



> If a Brother's belief is only in the acknowledgement of the existence of a power higher than one's self but does not practice faith of any kind, then there is no relevance to my point. I have seen my entire life and in the time since I became a Brother in this great and ancient Fraternity of ours, those that claim a high faith and practice but show things differently in their actions


Again, we agree. In fact, most of the Masons I know do a poor job of observing all the tenets of their chosen faith, if for no other reason than that they are simply ignorant of those tenets. As their Brother, do we not have at least some responsibility to understand spiritual task our Brother has set for himself and to assist him where we can? To be sure, our cable tow is only so long; we are not talking about "saving the world" here, only having the love and respect to gain at least a fundamental understanding of the challenges he has set for himself.

Hey, weren't we supposed to be talking about women, and ritual, and stuff?


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## bgs942

The beauty of debate is sometimes it leads where it leads.  ;-)


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## Traveling Man

In the August 1920 issue of â€œThe Builderâ€ we find an interesting read about Female Adoptive Rite Masonry.
  Phoenix Masonry  The Builder Online.
By the way Phoenix Masonry has some very educational tools and resources as well.
Note: My Hyperlinks show in colour without any hovering!


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## jwhoff

bgs942 said:


> I do not disagree with and respect the fact that there are many faiths and texts that support them. My point is and was that there is but one Holy Bible (all translations included) and if that is the text that one was obligted on and the faith one claims/practices, as men and Masons we should walk a closer line to our faith and guide setting the highest example. My original point  to Bro. Bennet's comment was that I too have issues with some....not all.....but some Brothers that claim a book and faith walk h yet show practices/behaviors that are far removed from both. If a Brother's belief is only in the acknowledgement of the existence of a power higher than one's self but does not practice faith of any kind, then there is no relevance to my point. I have seen my entire life and in the time since I became a Brother in this great and ancient Fraternity of ours, _*those that claim a high faith and practice but show things differently in their actions. *_I strongly believe in the right for all peoples to walk and believe in what ever power they choose whether or not it is the one I have chosen. I also have the same belief relevant to prayer in school.....let students pray to what ever Deity they believe and those who don't, don't. I do so love and respect the sharing of ideas, opinions, and otherwise!


 
I see your point Brother bgs942.  Professing a faith or creed without living by its standards is hypercritical.  I too see many folks who don't appear to be living by what they preach.  As far as masonry is concerned, it all goes back to guarding that west gate.  We must take our duties on investigating committees seriously.


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## jwardl

Would be weird referring to a woman as "brother" though...


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## Heirophant

WOW. Phoenix Masonry. How contraversial...like I've been saying for quite some time...How do we know there aren't Female Masons already in existence? Doesn't Hillary Clinton have a Phoenix Lapel Pin? This post was originally about Females and Freemasonry. We should get back to the original post.


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## Traveling Man

Heirophant said:


> WOW. Phoenix Masonry. How contraversial...like I've been saying for quite some time...How do we know there aren't Female Masons already in existence? Doesn't Hillary Clinton have a Phoenix Lapel Pin? This post was originally about Females and Freemasonry. We should get back to the original post.



And that's what I tried to do...


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## Bill Lins

Hillary a Mason? Not surprised- I've more than once wondered from which side of the plate she swings.  :wink:


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## jhodgdon

Bill_Lins77488 said:
			
		

> Hillary a Mason? Not surprised- I've more than once wondered from which side of the plate she swings.  :wink:



Hahaha


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## JohnnyFlotsam

Nice.
 :bored:


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## MikeMay

jwardl said:


> Would be weird referring to a woman as "brother" though...


 
Wouldn't be so hard if you saw some of the women Marines I served with...not knockin 'em...just sayin...


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## jwhoff

*"No Woman No Cry" * could have and may well should have been Bob Marley's last words.  I knew there was something about the man that I liked that first night down in Rice Village.  Not wanting to *"Stir it UP"* or anything ... just sayin'.

*"Exodus."*


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## Brent Heilman

I know I haven't been around the Fraternity as long as all of you guys, but I do have experience in the taking something that was once all male and integrating it. When I was in the Navy the first ship I served on was all male. There were no women whatsoever onboard. Then one day we get from a deployment and we are told that we would be retrofitting the ship so we could have females. Once all of this was complete the females moved on and everything just fell a part. No longer could we just talk about whatever came to mind, we had to watch everything that was said. The practical jokes that were once common and made being there fun disappeared. We had to be more politically correct we because everything that was okay for a group of guys to share or do wasn't okay because a female might be around the corner and get offended. It really took life out of our ship and the morale plummeted. People looked for all kinds of reasons to get away. From my standpoint once you change it it will never be the same and it could possibly spell the end. If it happened a few years down the road those of us that are left will be like those of us on the ship, we will be reminiscing of "the good ol' days" and the "way it used to be". JMHO


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## JohnnyFlotsam

One shouldn't have to point the many differences between the U.S. Navy and a private fraternity, but they are not insignificant. Enough so that the argument that "We like things the way they are..." may be rationally put forth in one case and not the other.


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## Brent Heilman

I was not trying to say that they are anything alike. I was just pointing out that when you add in a variable that previously did not exist things change in ways that you cannot control and didn't expect. I just used what I went through in the Navy as an example or an allusion if you will.


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## jwhoff

MikeMay said:


> My wife was like....:47: when she found out I could wash dishes...


 
Your wife will never find out I can wash dishes ... she might tell my wife.  Then you and I would spend the evening washing dishes while our wives would spend the evening :lol::lol:


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## Beathard

Don't let my wife in when I am mopping or cleaning the lodges bathroom either! Her ignorance is my bliss!


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## Brent Heilman

Unfortunately my wife knows all that already. She knows I used to work in a restaurant. Also when I was in the Navy and on duty she would call and I would have  cut the call short for the nightly clean-up. I also do most of the ironing for my family thanks to my military experience.


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## jwhoff

Brent Heilman said:


> Unfortunately my wife knows all that already. She knows I used to work in a restaurant. Also when I was in the Navy and on duty she would call and I would have  cut the call short for the nightly clean-up. I also do most of the ironing for my family thanks to my military experience.


 
Unfortunately, those military careers are sometimes hard to shake.


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## Brent Heilman

Indeed they are. I count it as both a blessing and a curse!


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## Ashton Lawson

For those touting following the Bible on this subject, here's something for you to ponder. Christian marriage, from a biblical perspective, is pretty clear on the subject of how a man and woman should interact.



> *4* “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,' *5* and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? *6* So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
> Matthew 19:4-6


 
So if a married man and woman are one in flesh, it is logical to presume they are also one in mind and spirit. 

How much room does that leave for secrets between each of you? It seems to me, that there is no violation of any obligation to reveal your secrets to someone who in God's eyes is one flesh with you. 

If you have a problem with that, take it up with God.


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## HKTidwell

I'll bite on this, if we are truely one in flesh(Mind and Spirit) then I guess she should have a recollection of what went on and if she has forgotten then who am I to cause her to remember.

I'm not married and if I do ever get married then she will have to make a determination before we are wed whether she can handle it.  This will be one of those things that will be discussed up front.


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## JJones

Why are some people so insistent they should be able to bring their wives along?  :huh:  

Women have the EOS, which I'm sure has been mentioned already, I say we leave it at that.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.




Esoteric Theurgist said:


> If you have a problem with that, take it up with God.



That's a bit out of context wouldn't you say?  I don't claim to speak for the GAOTU but I have to believe he/she/it would have a much greater problem someone taking my text out of context than anyone keeping secrets.

I'm not trying to be rude but reaching that conclusion from what you quoted strikes me as a huge stretch.


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## Huw

Hi David.



david918 said:


> There is already a grand lodge of Women masons http://www.owf.org.uk/


Yes, but that's over here in England.  In fact there are two all-women GLs here:  the other one is http://www.hfaf.org/ .

Just to be clear, these two organisations aren't like OES (which we don't have in England).  They're working exactly the same 3 degrees that we do, in their own Lodges, with their own GL, etc.  And incidentally, they call one another "Brother", not "Sister".

Of course UGLE doesn't extend official recognition and there's no intervisiting, etc.  Indeed, the lady Masons don't want that any more than we do, we like being a boys club and they like being a girls club.

However, the unofficial relationships are good, including at the GL level.  On matters of common concern, UGLE and the OWF and HFAF do sometimes act together.  At a personal level, some of the lady Masons are the wives of our Brethren, although of course many others have joined independently of any connection to us.

We also have organisations of mixed-sex co-masonry over here, as you also do in the US.  In that case, however, as you might expect, we don't work with them.

Since women-only masonry is doing quite well here, I've often wondered why it hasn't taken off more in the US.  I can only assume that the OES absorbs the demand over there.

T & F,

Huw


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## Traveling Man

Huw said:


> Since women-only masonry is doing quite well here, I've often wondered why it hasn't taken off more in the US. I can only assume that the OES absorbs the demand over there.



Welcome back Bro. Huw;

Could it be because they do not realise that OES is the adopted rite and not the same? Or maybe they think they need "permission"... (ROFL)


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## JTM

Gents, the frames are broken in this thread (threads made during the old days of VB don't show up correctly in all browsers).  Make a new poll/thread if you'd like to continue this discussion.


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