# Is there more to Light than Knowledge?



## pointwithinacircle2 (Aug 3, 2015)

Let me start by acknowledging that most Masons have either heard, been told, or believe that "Light = Knowledge".  I'm sure that all of us can point to passages in the ritual (I know I can) that support this idea.  In my defense I want to say that I am only asking a question.  I am not attacking anyone's cherished beliefs, concepts, or ideas.  I am writing this because the possibility has recently occurred to me that perhaps there is more to Light than knowledge, and I would like to hear your opinions on the matter.

I live in a world where everyone wants to know "the answer".  We live in a world where the internet claims to offer the answer to any question.  Just now I googled "moral rectitude" and in 0.4 seconds I got a list of 239,000 websites that reference the term.  I looked at a few sites and I now know the definition http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rectitude the synonyms http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/moral+rectitude and I even read the moral rectitude blog http://moralrectitude.blogspot.com/2010/09/what-does-moral-rectitude-mean.html

So now I have some knowledge of moral rectitude.  And don't get me wrong, I think knowledge is good stuff.  I wouldn't know where to start without it.  But does knowledge constitute Masonic Light?   Honestly, I don't think so.  I do not think that this mornings web search has increased my moral rectitude.  In my case I think that increasing (or maintaining) my moral rectitude is going to be some work.  And work is something that you do.  It seems to me that Masonic Light must have elements of both knowing and doing.  

In my mind the new question then becomes "How do you do Masonic Light?".


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## Glen Cook (Aug 3, 2015)

Are you pointing to the concept of Wisdom?


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## coachn (Aug 3, 2015)

Knowledge = Information = Inventory.

Wisdom = knowing when, why and how to apply knowledge successfully toward beneficial ends.

Light is Inventory.  Some use it wisely; some not so wisely.  Others just gather and store it.  Still more don't bother with it at all.

Of course, some think Light is the Source of all Knowledge.  But that's a whole different topic.


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## Glen Cook (Aug 3, 2015)

What of applying knowledge toward evil ends? How do we denote that?  Thomas Aquinas would seem to avoid discussing Wisdom per se.


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## coachn (Aug 3, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> What of applying knowledge toward evil ends?



It's done all the time!  Many times unknowingly by well-intentioned ignorant souls.  They pave the road too.



Glen Cook said:


> How do we denote that?



I don't know how you do, but I usually shake my head and stay clear, unless I can prevent someone from getting steamrolled by the pavers.



Glen Cook said:


> Thomas Aquinas would seem to avoid discussing Wisdom per se.



I wonder why!


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## dfreybur (Aug 3, 2015)

If you think of knowledge as that which has objectively verifiable evidence, then faith is not knowledge.  It's a very science oriented idea of knowledge and not the only way to view knowledge.  Being very science oriented I tend to think of knowledge that way.

Faith is definitely included in what I call Light.  Gnosis is also included in what I call Light.  Here I think of gnosis as direct, faith as indirect.  Also not the only way to view those ideas.


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## coachn (Aug 3, 2015)

I see faith as _a choice to believe something_. _ It doesn't require evidence._  All that is required is the ability to _see a possibility_.  It can involve wisdom, but doesn't require it.  

Science is rooted in "knowing" and knowing has the same root as knowledge. [know: Old English _cnāwan_ (earlier _gecnāwan_ ) ‘recognize, identify,’ of Germanic origin; from an Indo-European root shared by Latin _(g)noscere_, Greek _gignōskein_, also by can1 and ken.

When I take the root on knowledge (recognize, identify) and apply it to faith,  I see that faith begins in recognizing or identifying a possibility.  I also see that science is seeking to verify that possibility.

I don't see science requiring wisdom.  It's a mechanical process of ferreting out if a possibility is highly probable and verifiable.   There's some science out there that ain't too wise.


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## coachn (Aug 3, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> ...The genuine MMs in group formation assist in the management of some of the various lights that flow across the planet.  This is foreshadowed in the proposition that a Freemason's lodge extends from E to W and N to S and from the center of the Earth to the Heavens.


It's important to note too that genuine MM formations like these often foreshadow the formation of planning committees for fish-fries, raffles and turkey-shoots.


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## Pscyclepath (Aug 4, 2015)

And what is knowledge, without understanding?

;-)


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## Brother_Steve (Aug 4, 2015)

I'm young and I literally take the light shown to us at each degree to mean the modes of recognition and the lessons taught therein. The apron, working tools, lessons contained in the lectures, etc...

It is up to us as an individual to apply those to ourselves and then and only then can we be a beacon (of light) for others to follow...The more experienced showing the newly made mason that we are extraordinary men in ordinary circumstances.


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## Glen Cook (Aug 4, 2015)

coachn said:


> It's important to note too that genuine MM formations like these often foreshadow the formation of planning committees for fish-fries, raffles and turkey-shoots.


What, no spaghetti dinner? I question  the regularity of this lodge.


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## coachn (Aug 4, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> What, no spaghetti dinner? I question  the regularity of this lodge.


...as you should my Brother!


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

Knowledge is part of it, it is believed in some Hermetic circles that nothing is ever learned except by experience.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Aug 5, 2015)

GKA said:


> Knowledge is part of it, it is believed in some Hermetic circles that nothing is ever learned except by experience.


Now there is a Hermetic circle that I would like to hang out in.  I'm not positive that _nothing_ can be learned except by experience, but I'm pretty sure that at least some some things can _only_ be learned that way.  Freemasonry, for example, is taught by experiencing it.  

Someone I respect recently asked me "If what Freemasonry teaches is good why do you keep it a secret, why don't you just tell everyone?".  My reply was "When you say "tell everyone" you mean explain it in words.  Freemasonry doesn't teach in words, it teaches through experience".  I could have said "transformative experience" but I wasn't quick enough to think of it at the time.  

I think that the reason millennials are increasingly interested in Freemasonry is that they are looking for a transformative experience - something that will help them be better than they have been.  I know that is the reason that I came to Freemasonry.  I think there is a possibility that Masonic Light is an allegory for a positive transformative experience.


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## dfreybur (Aug 5, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> What, no spaghetti dinner? I question  the regularity of this lodge.



And green beans!


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## Glen Cook (Aug 5, 2015)

O


dfreybur said:


> And green beans!


only in the higher degrees.


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## coachn (Aug 5, 2015)

Did I forget to mention Pancake Breakfasts?


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## hanzosbm (Aug 5, 2015)

Brother_Steve said:


> I'm young and I literally take the light shown to us at each degree to mean the modes of recognition and the lessons taught therein. The apron, working tools, lessons contained in the lectures, etc...
> 
> It is up to us as an individual to apply those to ourselves and then and only then can we be a beacon (of light) for others to follow...The more experienced showing the newly made mason that we are extraordinary men in ordinary circumstances.


Brother Steve, there is nothing wrong with being young, nor what you are currently seeing.  However, I think it is important to know that there is more for those willing to seek it.  What you have learned and what you now understand is the first step, the outermost layer of the onion.  But, one cannot understand the allegory without first learning the literal.


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> O
> 
> only in the higher degrees.


Here in California, the green beans are the worst ever


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## hanzosbm (Aug 5, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Someone I respect recently asked me "If what Freemasonry teaches is good why do you keep it a secret, why don't you just tell everyone?".  My reply was "When you say "tell everyone" you mean explain it in words.  Freemasonry doesn't teach in words, it teaches through experience".  I could have said "transformative experience" but I wasn't quick enough to think of it at the time.


I recently came across a video lecture by a member of the Theosophical Society (and seemingly, a fairly senior member) in which he openly talked about the ideas that it has taken me years of very deep digging to come to.  He spoke about them very matter-of-factly and without much interest.  As the discussion continued, I realized that he really didn't seem to have any clue about the things he was discussing.  He had the knowledge, but not the understanding.  It would be like someone reading the exposes of the degrees.  They know it, but they don't really _know_ it.  And because of this, the discussion started going off on some weird tangents, much in the way I sure would happen if a non-Mason skimmed through our ritual and then tried to interpret things. 
Going back to why we keep secrets, I think this is the reason why.  That knowledge is wasted and in fact can be perverted if it is not truly understood.


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

That is so true memorization is not the way to understanding, experience from the application of what is learned, that is what does it.


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## Glen Cook (Aug 5, 2015)

GKA said:


> Here in California, the green beans are the worst ever


This was rumoured.  It will be addressed at CIOR and a report made to CGMNA in February.


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## Brother_Steve (Aug 6, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Is not Masonry is veiled in allegory?   What then is to be taken literally?


During the process of the degree you are taught the steps, signs, grip(s) and word(s) of that degree. This is the literal I speak of. There is allegory behind it but those modes for identifying yourself as a mason are what we are taught at that moment in time once we are initiated and progress through the degrees.

I hope that clears up what I meant.


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## crono782 (Aug 11, 2015)

I interpret masonic teachings of Light = Truth = Divine Knowledge. That is, a knowledge or oneness with [the mind of] God. I interpret the Light of Freemasonry as an allegory to the ways of Deity, our place in Its universe.
I've felt since the beginning that the teachings and lessons of Freemasonry were not just allegory, but multi-layered allegory. Exoteric to esoteric to humanistic to moralistic to deistic perhaps. By examining our place in the sphere of the Heavens and the mortal plane of Earth and how we fit into it all, we learn to view nature differently than the common man and this is what truly sets us apart. The moral teachings are just the means by which more chips are taken from the rough ashlar as you cannot truly gain wider gnosis of deity while in such a rude and natural state yourself.


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## hanzosbm (Aug 11, 2015)

crono782 said:


> I interpret masonic teachings of Light = Truth = Divine Knowledge. That is, a knowledge or oneness with [the mind of] God. I interpret the Light of Freemasonry as an allegory to the ways of Deity, our place in Its universe.
> I've felt since the beginning that the teachings and lessons of Freemasonry were not just allegory, but multi-layered allegory. Exoteric to esoteric to humanistic to moralistic to deistic perhaps. By examining our place in the sphere of the Heavens and the mortal plane of Earth and how we fit into it all, we learn to view nature differently than the common man and this is what truly sets us apart. The moral teachings are just the means by which more chips are taken from the rough ashlar as you cannot truly gain wider gnosis of deity while in such a rude and natural state yourself.


I could not agree more.


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## crono782 (Aug 11, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> >multi-layered allegory
> This seems to have come about in part because each new group concealing itself within Masonry then modified existing imagery and references to include their own meanings
> ..........
> ..being unable to teach inner practices and therefore resorting to moralizing.



Perhaps and that is actually a quite likely scenario. However, also consider that, like the Masonic degrees themselves, true knowledge and oneness is a progressive science and cannot truly be obtained or comprehended all at once. The mind, as part of man, must be continually worked and improved over time. Working it's way through understanding of more and more complex ideas reworks and shapes the mind for the better. As for the soul, understanding not specific morals per se, but the underlying conception of morals and how our mind processes and adheres to these morals, even the conception of morals as a framework crafted by Deity, is a necessary step along the way to obtaining such a wider view of the mysteries of nature and the laws which govern the universe.

Even if it is so that the multiple layers and moralizing are byproducts of other agendas at play in the past, perhaps it is not a bad thing. After all, something obtained easily is not so easily treasured. I can be told something repeatedly and it not sink it, but if I have truly worked to discover it on my own, it is something I cannot forget.


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## coachn (Aug 11, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> >Even if it is so that the multiple layers and moralizing are byproducts of other agendas at play in the past, perhaps it is not a bad thing.
> 
> Given that the genuine secrets were not known to be lost until about 1725, the older multiple layers may well include useful information


That is assuming one buys into the fabrication of something being lost in the first place.


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## coachn (Aug 11, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> When I was taught statistics we were told of Type I and Type II errors....



That is assuming you can realistically apply statistical analysis to a fabrication while keeping a straight face.



JamestheJust said:


> Some times I wonder if the YOLO propaganda has some motive behind it.



Do you mean to imply that it possibly doesn't?


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## Glen Cook (Aug 11, 2015)

coachn said:


> That is assuming you can realistically apply statistical analysis to a fabrication while keeping a straight face.



It helps to be a lawyer.


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## coachn (Aug 12, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> When one knows the truth analysis is not necessary


Yup.  Agreed.  Thus when one is convinced that one knows the truth, the mere mention of using statistics, going down blind alleys, and investing any time in perpending propaganda becomes just a useless exercise in keyboard whacking.   You know, only a few of the many things Masons are supposed to Divest themselves of.


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## coachn (Aug 12, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> The problem with a conviction is that one is subject to being conquered by any stronger mind.


LOL!  That's assuming in a big way that one is convinced that there is actually a mind involved in the process.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Aug 12, 2015)

All is mind


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## dfreybur (Aug 12, 2015)

coachn said:


> That is assuming one buys into the fabrication of something being lost in the first place.



Before the Scientific Method was devised, one of the problems is that advancement of material knowledge had plateaued because discoveries were kept secret.  Secret knowledge was lost across generations even when it was leaked to others.  The leaked knowledge just took longer to be lost.  So science exploited a human frailty that competes with the desire for secrecy - The desire for fame.  In science credit for a discovery went to the first to publish.  Once published, discoveries were no longer lost.  Material knowledge left its plateau and has been advancing ever since.

When grand lodge Freemasonry was invented in 1717 the formal codification of the Scientific Method was still new.  Optimism abounded that the principles that worked so well in the material realm would work as well in other realms.

Freemasonry was called a progressive moral science.  I suggest that the expectation at the time was that morality in general across the world would increase through improved knowledge and the application of that knowledge.  Has this happened?  Certainly not at the same rate as happened in material knowledge but I do suggest we have seen progress.

Understand that complaints about moral decay since the previous generation are so universal to humanity they appear in works as ancient as the Illiad and the Odyssey.  When considering moral advancement across time we need to understand that most of us have this bias to see our times as worse that before, and we need to move past that bias.

For a while the number and size of wars kept increasing but with the invention of nuclear weapons that trend stopped and reversed.  The world definitely still sees wars but there size remains small.  I wonder of historical demographic studies would even show that the percentage of the world covered by wars has been shrinking.  With the world entering a new set of Crusades let's hope they don't last the centuries that the previous Crusades did.

More and more of the world is being covered by republics-in-fact and less and less of the world is being covered by republics-in-name-only.  More and more of the world is being covered by active trade.  Historically when republics-in-fact engage in active trade the chances of wars decrease.

Economic booms and busts continue about once per decade, but at the worst point at the bottom of each cycle the percentage of humanity starving ratchets down.  With another couple of cycles and with globalization of trade we may even see the absolute number of people starving down down.

In western secular civilization various forms of equal treatment continue to advance, as usual over the objections of previous generations.  One topic at a time.  Religious attendance continues low in countries with any sort of official religion, continues high in countries with high degrees of separation of church and state.

Moral progress has been at a much slower rate than material progress, but it has been happening.  Often with Masons leading the way as dictatorships give way to republics, as peace prevails after wars.

As with material progress, I am sure that moral and spiritual advances have been lost over the millennia.  Calling Freemasonry a progressive moral science and keeping our service events and charities publicized helps keep new advances going.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Aug 12, 2015)

It appears that if I am to have any peace in the world I shall have to rewrite my definition of the term "Scientific Method".  My complaint about this phrase is that people talk about the time "before scientific method".  This irks me because according to my definition such a time never existed.  However, after reading Brother Doug's thoughtful explication on the subject, I see where my thinking has diverged from the thoughts of other learned men on the subject.  It appears that my analysis has undervalued the factor of Independent Verification.  

Throughout all history there have been men whose mental processes were clouded by fear, ignorance, and superstition.  When these men wield power they attack those who dare to speak any truth that is not an echo of their own thoughts.  In such times great thinkers have had to hide their knowledge to avoid being imprisoned or put to death.  It is only when men can discuss their thoughts and investigations without fear of reprisal that true progress is made.  If there is anyplace on Earth where men cannot speak freely there is still work to do.


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## dfreybur (Aug 13, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> It appears that if I am to have any peace in the world I shall have to rewrite my definition of the term "Scientific Method".  My complaint about this phrase is that people talk about the time "before scientific method".  This irks me because according to my definition such a time never existed.  However, after reading Brother Doug's thoughtful explication on the subject, I see where my thinking has diverged from the thoughts of other learned men on the subject.  It appears that my analysis has undervalued the factor of Independent Verification.
> 
> Throughout all history there have been men whose mental processes were clouded by fear, ignorance, and superstition.  When these men wield power they attack those who dare to speak any truth that is not an echo of their own thoughts.  In such times great thinkers have had to hide their knowledge to avoid being imprisoned or put to death.  It is only when men can discuss their thoughts and investigations without fear of reprisal that true progress is made.  If there is anyplace on Earth where men cannot speak freely there is still work to do.



Capitalized does matter.  The word for science was around a long time before the late Renaissance but what it meant changed.  Before it was the quest for knowledge.  After it was a formalized process, a machine that grinds on knowledge rejecting the false.

Review the literature, formulate a hypothesis, make predictions, devise experiments, review the data.  Reject any hypothesis that fails to match the data.  Refine any hypothesis that does match the data.  These are the tactical steps that are taught to elementary school kids.  There is also a strategy layer.

Publish results.  First to publish gets credit.  Once a hypothesis has been widely confirmed by experiment, start calling it a theory instead.  This level both exploits the human frailty to want glory to pull secret knowledge out into the public (as patents exploit the human frailty of greed to pull secret inventions out into the public).  It also establishes a sliding scale of degree of verification.  These are the strategic steps that so often get misunderstood by the public.

How science gets applied to morality is less clear than with chemistry.  But consider the evolution of ideas about prisons over time.


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## BroBook (Aug 13, 2015)

You do Masonic Light by following " your " guide, and by allowing others to follow theirs.


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## dfreybur (Aug 13, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> The modern practice is to change the theory if the data does not support it - rather than reject it.



Correction is falsification.  There are degrees of falsification.  There is utter rejection like the philostigon theory.  There is large correction like the transition from Newton/Galilean absolute location physics to Einstein/Lorenz special relative location physics.  There is detailed correction like including special relativity in electron orbitals to explain the properties of very high atomic number metals.



> For example consider the evolution of the cholesterol theory each time the data did not support.



The cholesterol theory has never had the weight of evidence in favor of it that the philostigon theory did.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 11, 2015)

dfreybur said:


> If you think of knowledge as that which has objectively verifiable evidence, then faith is not knowledge.  It's a very science oriented idea of knowledge and not the only way to view knowledge.  Being very science oriented I tend to think of knowledge that way.
> 
> Faith is definitely included in what I call Light.  Gnosis is also included in what I call Light.  Here I think of gnosis as direct, faith as indirect.  Also not the only way to view those ideas.


Very Good!!!!


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