# If you were, what would you do?



## Howard Giang (Dec 14, 2017)

Hello everyone,
I am not a Mason yet or ever will be, but I was just wondering is there a way for Non-Mason to volunteer for the Freemasonry's Cause/Fundraising Event, etc? Another words, can I participate in an event along with Freemasons so that I can observe what Freemasons do because I want to evaluate or perform a self assessment whether this is what I want to be part of  for the rest of my life?  I don't want to observe from a distance because it is not the same as when I am interacting. Thanks.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 14, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Hello everyone,
> I am not a Mason yet or ever will be, but I was just wondering is there a way for Non-Mason to volunteer for the Freemasonry's Cause/Fundraising Event, etc? Another words, can I participate in an event along with Freemasons so that I can observe what Freemasons do because I want to evaluate or perform a self assessment whether this is what I want to be part of  for the rest of my life?  I don't want to observe from a distance because it is not the same as when I am interacting. Thanks.



Sir, in all honesty, you wouldnt get a clear picture or idea as to what the Masons do by volunteering along side of them. Your best bet is to find out when "stated" meetings are for the lodge you are interested in and perhaps have dinner a couple of times beforehand. Then, if you are pleased, petition. If its not your cup of tea, try a different lodge and do the same. Thats one thing I would stress is to shop around before committing. Reason being, if its not what you had in mind when visiting or the wrong demograpbic you had in mind then you may not stay active once you are in.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 15, 2017)

Your statement contradicts itself. On the one hand you say that you are not a Mason "or ever will be". On the other hand you state that you would like to observe Masonry so that you can "perform a self assessment whether this is what I want to be part of for the rest of my life". Are you considering joining the fraternity or are you simply curious?


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## Elexir (Dec 15, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Hello everyone,
> I am not a Mason yet or ever will be, but I was just wondering is there a way for Non-Mason to volunteer for the Freemasonry's Cause/Fundraising Event, etc? Another words, can I participate in an event along with Freemasons so that I can observe what Freemasons do because I want to evaluate or perform a self assessment whether this is what I want to be part of  for the rest of my life?  I don't want to observe from a distance because it is not the same as when I am interacting. Thanks.



If freemasonry were only a charity it could be done the way you think.
However since freemasonry (or masonry) more is about the understanding and development of a person through ritual it dont work that way.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 15, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> Sir, in all honesty, you wouldnt get a clear picture or idea as to what the Masons do by volunteering along side of them. Your best bet is to find out when "stated" meetings are for the lodge you are interested in and perhaps have dinner a couple of times beforehand. Then, if you are pleased, petition. If its not your cup of tea, try a different lodge and do the same. Thats one thing I would stress is to shop around before committing. Reason being, if its not what you had in mind when visiting or the wrong demograpbic you had in mind then you may not stay active once you are in.


Thanks Clewey44, 
Yes, I totally agree with you that I don't want to be a Freemason and then AWOL from the Lodge. I am just trying to find more about Freemasons core interests and comparing them to my interests to see how much we have in common or in compatible.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 15, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Thanks Clewey44,
> Yes, I totally agree with you that I don't want to be a Freemason and then AWOL from the Lodge. I am just trying to find more about Freemasons core interests and comparing them to my interests to see how much we have in common or in compatible.



If and when you get a petition it will ask you some questions that may help answer some of your questions. That's a good starting point and then just meet some of the individuals. One thing about Masonry is that it means a million different things to a million different members. As a whole, you do have a lot of gents that are more into the volunteering side, the social/fraternal/'hanging out with guys' types, historical junkies, by-laws/constitution junkies, ritualists (meaning they have it down pat), esoterics, and even some "far-out" types and everything in between. Some guys are combination and some are very specific. I've met everyone from Christian doctors to "spiritual" carpenters. That's one good thing is that you do meet all types but at the end of the day, we're all Masons.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 15, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Your statement contradicts itself. On the one hand you say that you are not a Mason "or ever will be". On the other hand you state that you would like to observe Masonry so that you can "perform a self assessment whether this is what I want to be part of for the rest of my life". Are you considering joining the fraternity or are you simply curious?


Thanks Warrior1256,
I am not a Mason yet. The reason I also said "or ever will be" is that even if I file a petition to join the Lodge/Fraternity there is a possibility (for whatever the reason) that I may not be admitted or being voted with one black cube then I will not or never allow to be a Freemason (or ever will be). 
Yes, I am curious and have an interest, but I am also scare to death when I am considering to join the fraternity on my own free will (don't know why may be I watched too many wrong information about Freemason on YouTube). In addition, I would feel like a stranger trying to blend in which is totally different from if I were recruited by a friend/family member to join. I know it must be on your own free will.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 15, 2017)

Elexir said:


> If freemasonry were only a charity it could be done the way you think.
> However since freemasonry (or masonry) more is about the understanding and development of a person through ritual it dont work that way.


Thanks Elexir,
In a Lodge, yes I agree with you because there will be a lot of thing to learn regarding the ritual and ceremony, etc. 
How about in a private life? Do Freemasons allow to live loosely like drink a beer and gambling, quick peek at a strip bar, etc. I am just making up examples. Are they being stricter like they are required to uphold high moral values and avoid scandals?


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 15, 2017)

Elexir said:


> If freemasonry were only a charity it could be done the way you think.
> However since freemasonry (or masonry) more is about the understanding and development of a person through ritual it dont work that way.


Very true.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 15, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Thanks Elexir,
> In a Lodge, yes I agree with you because there will be a lot of thing to learn regarding the ritual and ceremony, etc.
> How about in a private life? Do Freemasons allow to live loosely like drink a beer and gambling, quick peek at a strip bar, etc. I am just making up examples. Are they being stricter like they are required to uphold high moral values and avoid scandals?



They do try to live up to higher morals. I would say that any sort of vice that you mentioned may need to be reduced or done away with before joining.  As for scandals, yes, Masons try to not do things scandalous. Nobody is perfect by any means but hitting up strip joints and casinos are usually not done en masonic masse. Practicing temperance is one thing Masons try to perfect.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 15, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> If and when you get a petition it will ask you some questions that may help answer some of your questions. That's a good starting point and then just meet some of the individuals. One thing about Masonry is that it means a million different things to a million different members. As a whole, you do have a lot of gents that are more into the volunteering side, the social/fraternal/'hanging out with guys' types, historical junkies, by-laws/constitution junkies, ritualists (meaning they have it down pat), esoterics, and even some "far-out" types and everything in between. Some guys are combination and some are very specific. I've met everyone from Christian doctors to "spiritual" carpenters. That's one good thing is that you do meet all types but at the end of the day, we're all Masons.


I was having a different vision because one of the requirement is that a Freemason must believe in God. Another words, a man must be religious (has a religion) in order to join, so I visualized that in general Freemasons are men living under the words of God. 
I don't quite understand what you meant "historical junkies, by-laws/constitution junkies" how?


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## Howard Giang (Dec 15, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> They do try to live up to higher morals. I would say that any sort of vice that you mentioned may need to be reduced or done away with before joining.  As for scandals, yes, Masons try to not do things scandalous. Nobody is perfect by any means but hitting up strip joints and casinos are usually not done en masonic masse. Practicing temperance is one thing Masons try to perfect.


Good to know. I said I was just making up those examples just to see if they are different from a college fraternity. I don't do all of those stuffs.


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## LK600 (Dec 15, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> I don't quite understand what you meant "historical junkies, by-laws/constitution junkies" how?



I think he means there are Brothers who are interested in different areas of Freemasonry.  Some are very interested in the history of Freemasonry, others the rules and roles, and so on.


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## Elexir (Dec 15, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Thanks Elexir,
> In a Lodge, yes I agree with you because there will be a lot of thing to learn regarding the ritual and ceremony, etc.
> How about in a private life? Do Freemasons allow to live loosely like drink a beer and gambling, quick peek at a strip bar, etc. I am just making up examples. Are they being stricter like they are required to uphold high moral values and avoid scandals?



The lessons taught in ritual are to be practiced outside of lodge.

Freemasons are diffrent, Im involved in the temprance movment in Sweden wich mean that I drink non-alcholic drinks while other freemasons drink alchol.
What unites us is that we try to become better men.
Does it sometimes fail?
Of course, we are only human.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 15, 2017)

LK600 said:


> I think he means there are Brothers who are interested in different areas of Freemasonry.  Some are very interested in the history of Freemasonry, others the rules and roles, and so on.


Thanks LK600 for explaining. I got it.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 15, 2017)

Elexir said:


> The lessons taught in ritual are to be practiced outside of lodge.
> 
> Freemasons are diffrent, Im involved in the temprance movment in Sweden wich mean that I drink non-alcholic drinks while other freemasons drink alchol.
> What unites us is that we try to become better men.
> ...


Me too. I drank alcohol when I was in a college fraternity, and I still drink occasionally especially for socializing reason (wedding, holiday, etc.). I do drink and have non-alcohol German beer that I offer to my guests. Unusually, when I offer non-alcohol beer, it is very hard for anyone to refuse. Good to know that Freemason is not prohibited from drinking alcohol beverage. I still don't know if it is a good thing.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 24, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Me too. I drank alcohol when I was in a college fraternity, and I still drink occasionally especially for socializing reason (wedding, holiday, etc.). I do drink and have non-alcohol German beer that I offer to my guests. Unusually, when I offer non-alcohol beer, it is very hard for anyone to refuse. Good to know that Freemason is not prohibited from drinking alcohol beverage. I still don't know if it is a good thing.


At our lodge we have a meeting after the meeting. We get together some of the brothers have beers or cocktails, some of us order food and it is a good time of fellowship and a way to get to know one another even better. As long as you don't drink in excess you are fine. The idea is to improve ourselves with Freemasonry. If you have a temper, then look to teachings of Freemasonry to help you learn to control your temper. We can't instantly become better men but it is a process, it takes time, and we each have our own things to work on.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 26, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> At our lodge we have a meeting after the meeting. We get together some of the brothers have beers or cocktails, some of us order food and it is a good time of fellowship and a way to get to know one another even better. As long as you don't drink in excess you are fine. The idea is to improve ourselves with Freemasonry. If you have a temper, then look to teachings of Freemasonry to help you learn to control your temper. We can't instantly become better men but it is a process, it takes time, and we each have our own things to work on.


Thanks Andy, sounds great! As we are getting older, family and friendships are very important especially friends that you can trust and will be there for you.

Is the socializing among brothers is only encourage in your Lodge, or it is the norm everywhere? Thanks.


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## dpk Shah (Dec 26, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Is the socializing among brothers is only encourage in your Lodge, or it is the norm everywhere? Thanks.



My lodge has festive boards after every meeting and as far as I know all lodges in my state have festive boards. I would say its the norm here Down Under


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## Elexir (Dec 26, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Thanks Andy, sounds great! As we are getting older, family and friendships are very important especially friends that you can trust and will be there for you.
> 
> Is the socializing among brothers is only encourage in your Lodge, or it is the norm everywhere? Thanks.



In Sweden all meetings consists three parts
1) Pre-lodge: Members meet and socialize, put om regalia etc.
2) The lodge meeting wich is bound by ritual.
3) A meal after the lodge.


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## dpk Shah (Dec 26, 2017)

Elexir said:


> In Sweden all meetings consists three parts
> 1) Pre-lodge: Members meet and socialize, put om regalia etc.
> 2) The lodge meeting wich is bound by ritual.
> 3) A meal after the lodge.



Its exactly same here in Australia


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## Howard Giang (Dec 26, 2017)

dpk Shah said:


> My lodge has festive boards after every meeting and as far as I know all lodges in my state have festive boards. I would say its the norm here Down Under


No wonder why, it is so difficult to miss a meeting.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 26, 2017)

Elexir said:


> In Sweden all meetings consists three parts
> 1) Pre-lodge: Members meet and socialize, put om regalia etc.
> 2) The lodge meeting wich is bound by ritual.
> 3) A meal after the lodge.


No wonder why, it is so difficult to miss a meeting.
How long (hours) you have to be at the Lodge to be involved in all of 3 parts?


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## David612 (Dec 26, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> No wonder why, it is so difficult to miss a meeting.
> How long (hours) you have to be at the Lodge to be involved in all of 3 parts?


As discussed Australia is the same for the average punter 3-4 hours however if you hang back and are doing dishes for example it could be up to 6 if everything is slow that day.

Personally I and some other brothers get togeather prior to the first part and enjoy each other’s company at a venue next door that we don’t have to clean


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## Howard Giang (Dec 26, 2017)

David612 said:


> As discussed Australia is the same for the average punter 3-4 hours however if you hang back and are doing dishes for example it could be up to 6 if everything is slow that day.
> 
> Personally I and some other brothers get togeather prior to the first part and enjoy each other’s company at a venue next door that we don’t have to clean


When I was pledging in a college fraternity, what I did most was washing dishes by hands. The Lodge is probably using a dishwasher machine for efficiency. Is this volunteers are for everyone to help out?  

From now on, Lodge knows where to find David612, maybe next door!


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## David612 (Dec 26, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> When I was pledging in a college fraternity, what I did most was washing dishes by hands. The Lodge is probably using a dishwasher machine for efficiency. Is this volunteers are for everyone to help out?
> 
> From now on, Lodge knows where to find David612, maybe next door!


Hahaha yes it’s all volunteer and we do have a dishwasher and I try to do my bit there as I travel a bit so I also get my share of meals brought to me. 
I always make an effort to invite lots of my brothers next door for a cheeky beer ahead of lodge, it’s well received  alway make sure the initiates know they are welcome too, it’s a fun low pressure way to get to know the brothers.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 26, 2017)

David612 said:


> Hahaha yes it’s all volunteer and we do have a dishwasher and I try to do my bit there as I travel a bit so I also get my share of meals brought to me.
> I always make an effort to invite lots of my brothers next door for a cheeky beer ahead of lodge, it’s well received  alway make sure the initiates know they are welcome too, it’s a fun low pressure way to get to know the brothers.


It sounds great and should be a guide for best practices. 

BTW, do you know why the EA and FC degrees don't have a word Mason in it, but they are still considered Mason?


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## Glen Cook (Dec 26, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> It sounds great and should be a guide for best practices.
> 
> BTW, do you know why the EA and FC degrees don't have a word Mason in it, but they are still considered Mason?



Hmm.  I am aware of rituals which do so. However, what is your explanation?


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## dfreybur (Dec 26, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> BTW, do you know why the EA and FC degrees don't have a word Mason in it, but they are still considered Mason?



Nuclear Aircraft Carrier doesn't have the word Navy in it.  International Space Station doesn't have the word NASA in it.  Public cloud doesn't have the words Linux servers in it.  I could type in examples like this as long a list as you like.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 26, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> Nuclear Aircraft Carrier doesn't have the word Navy in it.  International Space Station doesn't have the word NASA in it.  Public cloud doesn't have the words Linux servers in it.  I could type in examples like this as long a list as you like.


In the UK, they type it Nasa when referring to the agency.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 26, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Hmm.  I am aware of rituals which do so. However, what is your explanation?


I am just curious because all 3 degree: EA, FC, and Master are distinguishable degrees. They all are considered Masons, right? Do you refer each degree as EA Mason, FC Mason, and Master Mason? I was thinking when do you call a brother as a Mason or a Mason as brother. Another words, if EA and FC are not Mason yet until they become Master Mason, or can they stop as an EA or FC and still have right and privileged, funeral ritual, etc?


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## Howard Giang (Dec 26, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> Nuclear Aircraft Carrier doesn't have the word Navy in it.  International Space Station doesn't have the word NASA in it.  Public cloud doesn't have the words Linux servers in it.  I could type in examples like this as long a list as you like.


Thanks for pointing that out. I know what you meant, and I am not disagreed with you. I am just trying to understand how the process of degrees work, and when do you stop or you have to go all the way to 33 degrees. 

Anyhow, I was thinking of along the line, for example: brigadier general, major general, and lieutenant general, etc. They are all classified as generals.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 26, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> I am just curious because all 3 degree: EA, FC, and Master are distinguishable degrees. They all are considered Masons, right? Do you refer each degree as EA Mason, FC Mason, and Master Mason? I was thinking when do you call a brother as a Mason or a Mason as brother. Another words, if EA and FC are not Mason yet until they become Master Mason, or can they stop as an EA or FC and still have right and privileged, funeral ritual, etc?


But you already claimed “BTW, do you know why the EA and FC degrees don't have a word Mason in it, but they are still considered Mason”.  So, I’m confused. You already instructed us that the first two degrees don’t have the word Mason in them.  

The answer to your new questions depend on the jurisdiction.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 26, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Thanks Andy, sounds great! As we are getting older, family and friendships are very important especially friends that you can trust and will be there for you.
> 
> Is the socializing among brothers is only encourage in your Lodge, or it is the norm everywhere? Thanks.


I think it is pretty common here in Indiana.

We have our meal at 6:30, Lodge meeting at 7:30 and after we finish we head over to the Acme Bar for the "After Meeting" meeting. We actually sit in the restaurant part of the bar and put tables together. The "After Meeting" (that's what I call it) is optional and not everybody comes but we have some good laughs and it is where questions are answered and sometimes where strategy is decided. Plus it is more time to get to know one another.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 26, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> I am just trying to understand how the process of degrees work, and when do you stop or you have to go all the way to 33 degrees.


All are masons, once initiated you are a Mason but you are an Entered Apprentice, the lowest level, entry level if you will. Like joining a trade union, you are a member of that union, but you are an apprentice - a learner, in Star Wars terminology a Padawan, a Jedi but just learning.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 26, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> No wonder why, it is so difficult to miss a meeting.
> How long (hours) you have to be at the Lodge to be involved in all of 3 parts?


Dinner is at 6:30 so the brothers start showing up between 6:00 and 6:30, our meetings are over between 9:00 and 9:30 depending on how much business we have to attend to. So no average 3-4 hours but I find myself wanting to spend even more time together, hence the reason for going out for a drink and a snack after the meeting.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 26, 2017)

David612 said:


> As discussed Australia is the same for the average punter 3-4 hours however if you hang back and are doing dishes for example it could be up to 6 if everything is slow that day.


We use paper plates and plastic knives and forks and all we do is throw them out so no washing dishes.


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## David612 (Dec 26, 2017)

The other thing is that it is variable between countries, states and jurisdictions here in my area an EA can vote in lodge and as we open in the first degree there is little mucking about, only issue is for installations us EA are kicked out when it’s raised to the second, as they are with the third and so on, that said we typically have great food, whiskey and fantastic company so it’s really no issue in my books  
Additionally the full title I guess would be entered apprentice Freemason but we drop the “Freemason” as context conveys it, in the same way the second may have been “fellow of the craft” and the third degree was added significantly later if I understand correctly.
All are masons and equally important to have in a healthy lodge, the lower degrees from what I have seen seem to bring the energy and excitement to the lodge and the masters bring instruction and wisdom...theoretically.
We are all human however


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## David612 (Dec 26, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> We use paper plates and plastic knives and forks and all we do is throw them out so no washing dishes.


Not the most environmentally friendly but god would I love that at times, we are lucky to have a stocked kitchen so we cook but I can’t help but feel that it may not be our strongest skill however when I am able to stay I try to sit with a brother I do not know and chat which is great fun.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 26, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> All are masons, once initiated you are a Mason but you are an Entered Apprentice, the lowest level, entry level if you will. Like joining a trade union, you are a member of that union, but you are an apprentice - a learner, in Star Wars terminology a Padawan, a Jedi but just learning.


But do you get a light sabre as an EA?


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 26, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> But do you get a light sabre as an EA?


LOL no you only get a stick until you prove that you aren't going to hurt yourself.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 26, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> But you already claimed “BTW, do you know why the EA and FC degrees don't have a word Mason in it, but they are still considered Mason”.  So, I’m confused. You already instructed us that the first two degrees don’t have the word Mason in them.
> 
> The answer to your new questions depend on the jurisdiction.


Thanks.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 26, 2017)

David612 said:


> Not the most environmentally friendly but god would I love that at times, we are lucky to have a stocked kitchen so we cook but I can’t help but feel that it may not be our strongest skill however when I am able to stay I try to sit with a brother I do not know and chat which is great fun.


Our lodge is in the Masonic Temple in Fort Wayne, we share it with 2 other lodges and the York Rite chapters. We have a commercial kitchen and china, but the china is locked up. The building was built in 1926 so there is no dishwasher other than the human kind so dishes would have to be cleaned by hand. I had the opportunity to make homemade New York style pizza in the pizza oven, it turned out great and my brothers were very impressed with the pizza. The ovens worked great for being 91 years old.


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## David612 (Dec 26, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> Our lodge is in the Masonic Temple in Fort Wayne, we share it with 2 other lodges and the York Rite chapters. We have a commercial kitchen and china, but the china is locked up. The building was built in 1926 so there is no dishwasher and dishes would have to be cleaned by hand. I had the opportunity to make homemade New York style pizza in the pizza oven, it turned out great and my brother were very impressed with the pizza. The ovens worked great for being 91 years old.


That’s fantastic! I love a good bit of history to the lodge building.
We use an old football club and there are a total of 6 blue lodges plus apendant bodies that meet there, we have more historic lodges near by however


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 26, 2017)

David612 said:


> That’s fantastic! I love a good bit of history to the lodge building.
> We use an old football club and there are a total of 6 blue lodges plus apendant bodies that meet there, we have more historic lodges near by however


I've been told or building is haunted. Some of our brothers who have seen floating orbs that appear and disappear in the building. I have no reason to believe they are lying, but I would love to see them, I just don't want to be alone when or if I do.


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## David612 (Dec 26, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> I've been told or building is haunted. Some of our brothers who have seen floating orbs that appear and disappear in the building. I have no reason to believe they are lying, but I would love to see them, I just don't want to be alone when or if I do.


Eeeeek! How does the Tyler guard the west gate against that!


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 26, 2017)

David612 said:


> Eeeeek! How does the Tyler guard the west gate against that!


As far as I know nobody has ever seen one during a meeting. To the best of our knowledge, no one has ever died in the building but in its hey day over 10,000 masons occupied that building and the building was open 24/7 with shops occupying the first floor so you never know. I guess the Tyler will have challenge them for the password.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 27, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> All are masons, once initiated you are a Mason but you are an Entered Apprentice, the lowest level, entry level if you will. Like joining a trade union, you are a member of that union, but you are an apprentice - a learner, in Star Wars terminology a Padawan, a Jedi but just learning.


Exactly.


Andy Fracica said:


> We use paper plates and plastic knives and forks and all we do is throw them out so no washing dishes.


Same here. The only things that we wash are the serving utensils.


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## dfreybur (Dec 27, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> I am just trying to understand how the process of degrees work, and when do you stop or you have to go all the way to 33 degrees.



There's a point in the first degree where a man kneels a Mister and stands a Brother.

The first three degrees are the base.  The three degrees are expected by all Brothers, though not all complete them.  Completing the three degrees is a requirement for all other degrees.  All other degrees are optional and never required.

While some Brothers stop at other points, the natural points are Master Mason third degree or completing whatever degree names or numbers any optional bodies you decide to and can afford to join.

In the US President Lyndon Johnson too his first degree then never continued.  He was not aware of the amount of effort needed to progress and he didn't have the time because of his duties then in the US Senate.

I was MM for around 6 years before I petitioned the Scottish Rite and proceeded to 32.  There's no way I will ever be appointed to 33rd.  I'm not active enough in that body for that to ever happen.  32rd is far more common as an end point than 33rd.



Andy Fracica said:


> I've been told or building is haunted. Some of our brothers who have seen floating orbs that appear and disappear in the building. I have no reason to believe they are lying, but I would love to see them, I just don't want to be alone when or if I do.



The majority never have direct personal experience of deities or spirits.  A minority have always had direct personal experience of deities or spirits.  Not experiencing ghosts means you are a member of that majority.  Ghosts are boring so I never did get why they frighten people, especially folks in the majority who don't detect them.  What's to be frightened of?  Some spirit that seems to come from a dead guy.  I don't get the fuss.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 27, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> The majority never have direct personal experience of deities or spirits. A minority have always had direct personal experience of deities or spirits. Not experiencing ghosts means you are a member of that majority. Ghosts are boring so I never did get why they frighten people, especially folks in the majority who don't detect them. What's to be frightened of? Some spirit that seems to come from a dead guy. I don't get the fuss.


****snicker snicker****


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 27, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> The majority never have direct personal experience of deities or spirits.  A minority have always had direct personal experience of deities or spirits.  Not experiencing ghosts means you are a member of that majority.  Ghosts are boring so I never did get why they frighten people, especially folks in the majority who don't detect them.  What's to be frightened of?  Some spirit that seems to come from a dead guy.  I don't get the fuss.


Not so much afraid, want someone with me for confirmation that I'm actually seeing a ghost.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 27, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> The ovens worked great for being 91 years old.


91 years and is still awesome!


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## Howard Giang (Dec 27, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> There's a point in the first degree where a man kneels a Mister and stands a Brother.
> 
> The first three degrees are the base.  The three degrees are expected by all Brothers, though not all complete them.  Completing the three degrees is a requirement for all other degrees.  All other degrees are optional and never required.
> 
> ...


Thanks dfreybur, well explain regarding the degrees. Anyhow, one more question. Up to 32nd degree, a Mason has to petition; however, 33rd a Mason has to be appointed? Another words, appointed like political appointee, like a job interview, how?

I saw ghost before, normally, I would be very scared especially when I think there is a ghost without seeing one. Sometime, I feel scared and sometime I don't feel scare even though I am in a dark room or location. I recalled when my Mom passed away. We had her body at the funeral home. From my culture, I have to symbolically guard her body until she is buried. I was hanging out at the funeral home every day (5 days) until 9:00 pm closed. There were times, sitting in the guest room across the casket, I looked through door and fixated at wall and ceiling, occasion, I saw images and impressions of an incomplete figure of a person. Sometime, I saw only the eyes and nose appeared coming out from a wall and ceiling. I don't know why I was not scared. Other family members would be very scared to have an idea that there were ghost if they were alone in the room. I did not tell anyone what I saw because if I did they would not want to hang out with me at the funeral home.  At the time, I thought the images and movements were spirits the deaths because it is funeral home. One time, when I spent time at the hospital watching for my Mom, I also saw a movement that I thought it was a nurse. Anyhow, these strange feelings that I experienced were not hostile, so it did not scare me. I believe that most of the time the spirit figure out a way to communicate or to warn us of danger.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 27, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Thanks dfreybur, well explain regarding the degrees. Anyhow, one more question. Up to 32nd degree, a Mason has to petition; however, 33rd a Mason has to be appointed? Another words, appointed like political appointee, like a job interview, how?


As I understand it, you must be nominated to receive the 33rd degree. It is based on your service and keeping in good standing. If you serve the Scottish Rite Valley of which you are a member, and go through the officer line and are very active you might get nominated in about 10 years or so. It is very subjective.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 27, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Thanks dfreybur, well explain regarding the degrees. Anyhow, one more question. Up to 32nd degree, a Mason has to petition; however, 33rd a Mason has to be appointed? Another words, appointed like political appointee, like a job interview, how?
> ....



If I may?  In AASR SJ, the Deputy or Sovereign Grand Inspector General makes a nomination to the Supreme Council. Upon approval, the candidate is contacted and informed of the election.


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## Elexir (Dec 27, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Thanks dfreybur, well explain regarding the degrees. Anyhow, one more question. Up to 32nd degree, a Mason has to petition; however, 33rd a Mason has to be appointed? Another words, appointed like political appointee, like a job interview, how?



You seem the be confused.
The 33 degrees are not universal and exist only in one rite. 

So for a start you have to go up to MM and then petion the AA(S)R instead of the York rite (If you are american).


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 27, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> In AASR SJ, the Deputy or Sovereign Grand Inspector General makes a nomination to the Supreme Council. Upon approval, the candidate is contacted and informed of the election.


Yep!


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## David612 (Dec 27, 2017)

SR is where I hope to go


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## Howard Giang (Dec 27, 2017)

Thanks everyone,
I noticed that there is an investigative team of 3 coming to the home of the candidate and ask or interview the spouse. What kind of questions normally or likely will be asked from the wives?


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## dfreybur (Dec 27, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> Not so much afraid, want someone with me for confirmation that I'm actually seeing a ghost.



I don't think sight is the actual sense.  If it were sight we would have photographs.  When cats track ghosts they definitely point their heads.  They act like it's sight.  For some reason cats seem to be much more sensitive to spirits than humans.  But we still don't have photographs.  As such even with confirmation, there's no actual evidence.  More than one person had an experience that others didn't.

Just as I have no idea why only a small minority of people detect spirits, I have no idea what the actual sense is.  Plus I'm open to proof that it's a cognitive error, if such proof ever comes up.  Not likely just as there never seems to be proof of the spirits.  It just isn't about proof.  I figure that for members of the majority who don't detect spirits it's a topic that parallels faith.


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## dfreybur (Dec 27, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Up to 32nd degree, a Mason has to petition; however, 33rd a Mason has to be appointed?



The only way to get to 32nd is to submit petitions and do the required work to that point.  For 33rd if you ask for it that ensures you are not appointed.  That's why it's called honorary.  It's important to note that the Scottish Rite is just one of many optional orders.  It happens to be famous but it's neither required nor expected.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 27, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> What kind of questions normally or likely will be asked from the wives?


The way it goes here is the wife is invited to sit in during the interview and we answer any questions that she may have. We want to make sure that she has no objections to her husband entering the fraternity.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 27, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> The way it goes here is the wife is invited to sit in during the interview and we answer any questions that she may have. We want to make sure that she has no objections to her husband entering the fraternity.


But not for the 32..,.,


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## Bloke (Dec 27, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Hello everyone,
> I am not a Mason yet or ever will be, but I was just wondering is there a way for Non-Mason to volunteer for the Freemasonry's Cause/Fundraising Event, etc? Another words, can I participate in an event along with Freemasons so that I can observe what Freemasons do because I want to evaluate or perform a self assessment whether this is what I want to be part of  for the rest of my life?  I don't want to observe from a distance because it is not the same as when I am interacting. Thanks.


Hi Howard

We look for opportunities to spend time with potential applicants and applicants before we vote on them. Usually, this is during social times, but we've been known to stick a paintbrush in a willing hand  

This gives an insight into the interested parties demeanor and also gives them a chance to see us and ask the same question of different Freemasons. Sometimes the answers will be slightly or very different - esp, "why do you stay a freemason" ..


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 27, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> The way it goes here is the wife is invited to sit in during the interview and we answer any questions that she may have. We want to make sure that she has no objections to her husband entering the fraternity.


We do pretty much the same thing here. We also ask the candidate to tell us what he knows about Freemasonry.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 28, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> But not for the 32..,.,


Oh...no. Speaking of Blue Lodge only.


Andy Fracica said:


> We do pretty much the same thing here. We also ask the candidate to tell us what he knows about Freemasonry.


We ask a similar question, "Why do you want to be a Freemason?"


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 28, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Oh...no. Speaking of Blue Lodge only.
> 
> We ask a similar question, "Why do you want to be a Freemason?"


That's on our questionnaire too.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 28, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> The way it goes here is the wife is invited to sit in during the interview and we answer any questions that she may have. We want to make sure that she has no objections to her husband entering the fraternity.


So it can be a deal breaker?


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## Howard Giang (Dec 28, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Hi Howard
> 
> We look for opportunities to spend time with potential applicants and applicants before we vote on them. Usually, this is during social times, but we've been known to stick a paintbrush in a willing hand
> 
> This gives an insight into the interested parties demeanor and also gives them a chance to see us and ask the same question of different Freemasons. Sometimes the answers will be slightly or very different - esp, "why do you stay a freemason" ..


If the questions were for me, I can answer them, but for the wife, she would not know anything about Freemasonry, so objection would not be strong except time may be lost from the family.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 28, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> That's on our questionnaire too.


I thought the investigation committee might ask my wife like "have your husband ever raised his voice at you?" 

I would tell her to say "Yes", because I know for sure that the investigation committee will assure my wife that "when your husband becomes a Freemason, he will not do that anymore because he will perfecting himself through Freemasonry."


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## Glen Cook (Dec 28, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> I thought the investigation committee might ask my wife like "have your husband ever raised his voice at you?"
> 
> I would tell her to say "Yes", because I know for sure that the investigation committee will assure my wife that "when your husband becomes a Freemason, he will not do that anymore because he will perfecting himself through Freemasonry."


You know this for sure?  I don’t know that.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 28, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> You know this for sure?  I don’t know that.


You are right Glen. I was being hopeful.
Regardless, I am still asking my wife to tell the truth because long ago I did raise my voice at her more than one time, and I felt bad in character.
Has anyone ever raised your voice at your spouse at least one time in your life?


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## CLewey44 (Dec 28, 2017)

Yes and having human emotion is ok. That doesn't mean hit your wife, belittle her or call her names but Masons are allowed to get angry and do their best to control it. Thats all you can do.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 28, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> The way it goes here is the wife is invited to sit in during the interview and we answer any questions that she may have. We want to make sure that she has no objections to her husband entering the fraternity.


None of my Lodges involve the spouse in the interview.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 28, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> I thought the investigation committee might ask my wife like "have your husband ever raised his voice at you?"


It's more like has he stopped beating you? Yes or No


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 28, 2017)

Actually when we interview spouses it really is just to answer their questions about Masonry. Women might have some wrong ideas about Masons from watching too many History Channel shows.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 28, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> Yes and having human emotion is ok. That doesn't mean hit your wife, belittle her or call her names but Masons are allowed to get angry and do their best to control it. Thats all you can do.


Totally agree. I have never beaten up anyone in my entire life, including my wife. In fact, when I was young, I had gotten beaten up or bullied by others. Unfortunately, I don’t have a brother to defend for me, so I have to avoid being glowed too bright in the dark. 
Unlike you, you have millions of brothers that I will never have.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 28, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> It's more like has he stopped beating you? Yes or No


 Whew! Thanks God for those questions are not being asked. 
Next concern is that where I live, if a petition has a parking ticket, it may be a deal breaker and must 12 months. I had a parking ticket few months ago that I did contest. I think this is a game changer for me.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 28, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> Actually when we interview spouses it really is just to answer their questions about Masonry. Women might have some wrong ideas about Masons from watching too many History Channel shows.


Or from YouTube  Have you heard of a quote, maybe I am wrong “if we can control YouTube we can control the world!”


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## CLewey44 (Dec 28, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Whew! Thanks God for those questions are not being asked.
> Next concern is that where I live, if a petition has a parking ticket, it may be a deal breaker and must 12 months. I had a parking ticket few months ago that I did contest. I think this is a game changer for me.


Tsk tsk...you, you brother. ;D


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## David612 (Dec 28, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Whew! Thanks God for those questions are not being asked.
> Next concern is that where I live, if a petition has a parking ticket, it may be a deal breaker and must 12 months. I had a parking ticket few months ago that I did contest. I think this is a game changer for me.


If you can’t obey simple traffic laws how can we expect you to preambulate correctly!

I doubt it will be an issue bud, it’s actual crime they are looking for.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 28, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Whew! Thanks God for those questions are not being asked.
> Next concern is that where I live, if a petition has a parking ticket, it may be a deal breaker and must 12 months. I had a parking ticket few months ago that I did contest. I think this is a game changer for me.


Nobody cares about parking tickets or speeding tickets. Felonies, that's a different story but if you have stayed out of trouble for 20 years... We have one brother that had a felony conviction in his younger days but kept his record clean, served his time, paid restitution to his victim and has become a upstanding citizen He has been a productive member of the community for the last 25 years. We accepted him into our lodge as a brother. In our jurisdiction it is up to the lodge to decide where a felony is involved.

I think you are worrying yourself to death over this and while it is important,  the lodge probably wants you as much as you want to be part of the lodge.

Just relax and enjoy the journey.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 29, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> So it can be a deal breaker?


Very possible. The Lodge would not want to be the cause of marital strife.


Howard Giang said:


> Has anyone ever raised your voice at your spouse at least one time in your life?





CLewey44 said:


> Yes and having human emotion is ok. That doesn't mean hit your wife, belittle her or call her names but Masons are allowed to get angry and do their best to control it. Thats all you can do.


Absolutely!


Andy Fracica said:


> Actually when we interview spouses it really is just to answer their questions about Masonry. Women might have some wrong ideas about Masons from watching too many History Channel shows.


Same here.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 29, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> I think you are worrying yourself to death over this and while it is important, the lodge probably wants you as much as you want to be part of the lodge.
> 
> Just relax and enjoy the journey.


Very good advice.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 29, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> None of my Lodges involve the spouse in the interview.


Here in Kentucky it is prefered that the wife be present so that any of her questions can be answered and make sure that she has not objections to her husband joining.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 29, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Here in Kentucky it is prefered that the wife be present so that any of her questions can be answered and make sure that she has not objections to her husband joining.


That is the usual reason given for the practice. I wonder when it started. 

Personally, my wife and I are a little more independent in our relationship, and typically would not consult on issues.  Similarly, I had not thought to inform the fraternity as to how my wife feels on various issues. The two relationships are separate. Yes, I understand that a spouse’s objections to the fraternity would have an impact the member’s participation.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 29, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> Actually when we interview spouses it really is just to answer their questions about Masonry. Women might have some wrong ideas about Masons from watching too many History Channel shows.


And men. And Masons.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 29, 2017)

David612 said:


> If you can’t obey simple traffic laws how can we expect you to preambulate correctly!
> 
> I doubt it will be an issue bud, it’s actual crime they are looking for.


I have a clean driving record, and this parking ticket that I contested was because I was not violated a simple traffic laws, but unfortunately it is considered criminal history. Considering getting high voltage shock every time I got a parking ticket, I am sure I will perambulate correctly.  

http://www.freemason.org/discoverMasonry/applicantInformation.htm


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## Howard Giang (Dec 29, 2017)

Andy Fracica said:


> Nobody cares about parking tickets or speeding tickets. Felonies, that's a different story but if you have stayed out of trouble for 20 years... We have one brother that had a felony conviction in his younger days but kept his record clean, served his time, paid restitution to his victim and has become a upstanding citizen He has been a productive member of the community for the last 25 years. We accepted him into our lodge as a brother. In our jurisdiction it is up to the lodge to decide where a felony is involved.
> 
> I think you are worrying yourself to death over this and while it is important,  the lodge probably wants you as much as you want to be part of the lodge.
> 
> Just relax and enjoy the journey.


I have never been in jail/prison. For my entire life, I have clean record with high credit score except a parking ticket (a few). 

http://www.freemason.org/discoverMasonry/applicantInformation.htm


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## Glen Cook (Dec 29, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> I have never been in jail/prison. For my entire life, I have clean record with high credit score except a parking ticket (a few).
> 
> http://www.freemason.org/discoverMasonry/applicantInformation.htm


Why are you perseverating on this?  The link you provided answers the question.


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## David612 (Dec 29, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> I have a clean driving record, and this parking ticket that I contested was because I was not violated a simple traffic laws, but unfortunately it is considered criminal history. Considering getting high voltage shock every time I got a parking ticket, I am sure I will perambulate correctly.
> 
> http://www.freemason.org/discoverMasonry/applicantInformation.htm


Don’t worry about menial things like that bud, masons are just people too, people TRYING to be better, with varying degrees of success.

*edit: varying degrees of trying too.


Please let us know how your progress towards joint the craft is going and if I can help in any way just flick me a message.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 29, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Why are you perseverating on this?  The link you provided answers the question.


*"Criminal history* - An applicant’s character is the most important factor in consideration for membership. Men who have pled guilty or no contest or have been convicted of a crime of moral turpitude are not eligible for membership. This includes crimes committed against property, people, or government, such as, but not limited to, intent to defraud, intent to harm a person or thing, or intent to take a thing unlawfully. Minor traffic violations include such offenses as parking and speeding tickets.

A criminal background check, including civil and criminal records, is conducted for each application for degrees as well as applications for affiliation from members of other jurisdictions."

Because I had a contested parking ticket, so I am just pointing out that this Lodge does consider parking ticket as part of a criminal history, but I have never thought of that. I can agree that it can be a part of a driving history. "An applicant’s character is the most important factor in consideration for membership."


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## Howard Giang (Dec 29, 2017)

David612 said:


> Don’t worry about menial things like that bud, masons are just people too, people TRYING to be better, with varying degrees of success.
> 
> *edit: varying degrees of trying too.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I like the way you have a positive outlook.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 29, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> I have never been in jail/prison. For my entire life, I have clean record with high credit score except a parking ticket (a few).
> 
> http://www.freemason.org/discoverMasonry/applicantInformation.htm


Yeah, you're a no-go with a parking ticket....just kidding. Howard, you're fine if what you say is true. Do you believe in a higher power or Supreme Being? Don't worry about parking tickets and things like that. Get in there and petition for a lodge. Have you started visiting with them yet?


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## David612 (Dec 29, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Thanks. I like the way you have a positive outlook.


Haha I try 
Personally what I’m discovering as a new mason is that while we can sit here and discuss the esoterics, memorisation or degree kudos it’s all for naught if you aren’t applying the lessons of freemasonry to your life and genuinely improving, never forget why you got involved.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 29, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> *"Criminal history* - An applicant’s character is the most important factor in consideration for membership. Men who have pled guilty or no contest or have been convicted of a crime of moral turpitude are not eligible for membership. This includes crimes committed against property, people, or government, such as, but not limited to, intent to defraud, intent to harm a person or thing, or intent to take a thing unlawfully. Minor traffic violations include such offenses as parking and speeding tickets.
> 
> A criminal background check, including civil and criminal records, is conducted for each application for degrees as well as applications for affiliation from members of other jurisdictions."
> 
> Because I had a contested parking ticket, so I am just pointing out that this Lodge does consider parking ticket as part of a criminal history, but I have never thought of that. I can agree that it can be a part of a driving history. "An applicant’s character is the most important factor in consideration for membership."


Son, if —paid— parking tickets and speeding tickets were a disqualification, the fraternity would have closed its doors already.


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## Andy Fracica (Dec 29, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> *"Criminal history* - An applicant’s character is the most important factor in consideration for membership. Men who have pled guilty or no contest or have been convicted of a crime of moral turpitude are not eligible for membership. This includes crimes committed against property, people, or government, such as, but not limited to, intent to defraud, intent to harm a person or thing, or intent to take a thing unlawfully. Minor traffic violations include such offenses as parking and speeding tickets.
> 
> A criminal background check, including civil and criminal records, is conducted for each application for degrees as well as applications for affiliation from members of other jurisdictions."
> 
> Because I had a contested parking ticket, so I am just pointing out that this Lodge does consider parking ticket as part of a criminal history, but I have never thought of that. I can agree that it can be a part of a driving history. "An applicant’s character is the most important factor in consideration for membership."


Most people who have driven and parked a car have received a parking ticket or even a speeding ticket at one time or another during their life. Parking tickets and speeding tickets are just revenue generating tools for governments.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 29, 2017)

I'm not even sure if a DUI would get you disqual'd. Especially if it happened in your younger days.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 29, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> Yeah, you're a no-go with a parking ticket....just kidding. Howard, you're fine if what you say is true. Do you believe in a higher power or Supreme Being? Don't worry about parking tickets and things like that. Get in there and petition for a lodge. Have you started visiting with them yet?


Laughing with you.  Thanks for being friendly CLewey44. Yes, I am not an atheist. We might be differed on the interpretation of higher power and Sumpreme Being. Spiritually and theoretically, not only believing in God but also worshiping in God. Practically, I might not worship God correctly or not worship God enough. No, I have not walked into a Lodge in term of petitioning. I have been had luncheons in a Masonic Temple for over 30 times. For a Local Lodge, I had only parked my car across the street and looked at the building. No parking ticket for parking across the street though.  Happy New Year! Best Wishes for everyone here especially those that are thinking of me.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 29, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Son, if —paid— parking tickets and speeding tickets were a disqualification, the fraternity would have closed its doors already.


 Happy New Year!


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## Howard Giang (Dec 29, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> I'm not even sure if a DUI would get you disqual'd. Especially if it happened in your younger days.


In CA, a DUI is considered a felony. It usually cost about $10,000 total associatesd expenses. It is a game changer for many things. I have never gotten one, but I knew someone got one and is not good. Severe punishment from DUI does affectively deter repeat offenders though.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 29, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> In CA, a DUI is considered a felony. It usually cost about $10,000 total associatesd expenses. It is a game changer for many things. I have never gotten one, but I knew someone got one and is not good. Severe punishment from DUI does affectively deter repeat offenders though.


Umm, it is my understanding that  absent priors or death/injury, a first time DUI in CA is a misdemeanor, fines are about $1,800, amd attorney fees range $2,000-6,000.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 29, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Umm, it is my understanding that  absent priors or death/injury, a first time DUI in CA is a misdemeanor, fines are about $1,800, amd attorney fees range $2,000-6,000.


Thanks for pointing that out regarding few times, collisions, and absent of prior DUI as a misdemeanor. Fines is $1000 + $2600 plus cost from impounding vehicle, affecting insurance policy, attorney fees ranging from your figures. Anyway, it affects marriage, licensing, background check. I heard a lot of Masons are attorneys, so at least my journey will be in good hands.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 29, 2017)

Howard Giang said:


> Thanks for pointing that out regarding few times, collisions, and absent of prior DUI as a misdemeanor. Fines is $1000 + $2600 plus cost from impounding vehicle, affecting insurance policy, attorney fees ranging from your figures. Anyway, it affects marriage, licensing, background check. I heard a lot of Masons are attorneys, so at least my journey will be in good hands.


I stopped representing fraternal contacts on criminal matters. I send them up stairs to the young guys. I don’t have to sit in lodge with knowledge of their activities.  I also handle enough masonic disciplinary matters as part of my masonic duties.


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## Howard Giang (Dec 29, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> I stopped representing fraternal contacts on criminal matters. I send them up stairs to the young guys. I don’t have to sit in lodge with knowledge of their activities.  I also handle enough masonic disciplinary matters as part of my masonic duties.


My understanding is that in the past you had represented fraternal contacts on criminal matters being an attorney yourself. I am sure those you had helped still appreciate your expertise with various laws. In a way, you fulfilled your compassion, professionalism, responsibilities, duties, and obligations to your Brothers and the Lodge. I wish I will never have to ask you to help me criminal case because I hate to be a criminal.


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