# Why the secrets?



## hanzosbm (May 22, 2015)

Regardless of your opinions regarding the origins of Freemasonry, one can see similarities with the Ancient Mystery Schools.  One particular aspect that many of the Mystery Schools, religious sects, and Freemasonry all have in common is of secret teachings.  Most of sects and Mystery Schools say something to the effect of needing to keep the secrets to prevent them from falling into the hands of people who don't truly understand them.  Since most of these organizations strive for enlightenment, why the fear of their secrets getting out?
Let's assume a hypothetical XYZ Mystery School teaches some kind of secrets that help the initiate to find some kind of beautiful, hidden truth.  With the truth being so wonderful, why keep it from the uninitiated?  The argument could be made that they might not truly understand it, but so what?  Why is this knowledge that is so wonderful guarded so closely?
During the Enlightenment era, this continued.  Even the argument of the fear of persecution doesn't really hold up.  That would be a legitimate reason for keeping the identity of members secret, but not the knowledge.

(just a note, this isn't asked sarcastically and I don't think there's any evil underlying plot, just a legitimate question for discussion)


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## dfreybur (May 22, 2015)

"Carborundum non illegititatum".  Don't let the rhymes-with-mustards grind you down.  ;^)

Deal is so many people are negative about anything they don't understand it is often expeditious to isolate a teaching from the fuss budget folks.

Thing is that approach eventually led to a stagnation in society.  Every discovery kept secret was eventually lost so progress hit a maximum.  It was the invention of the Scientific Method that finally broke out of that trap.  One part of the Scientific Method is the credit goes to the first one who publishes there there is incentive against secrecy.

Grand Lodge Masonry dates from a time when the Scientific Method was new.  Time Immemorial Masonry dated from a time when the tradition of secrecy was still in place.

This in addition to lodges being places of haven from religious persecution that would literally cost people their lives for refusing to convert every generation as the next King or Queen issued the next mandate.


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## hanzosbm (May 22, 2015)

Okay, I think I follow.  So the thought process is that these teaching were kept secret for fear that if they were disseminated to a larger audience, the volume of naysayers would drown out the teachings.  Is that about right?  I think that argument is very likely the case.  Anyone else have any different ideas?


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## pointwithinacircle2 (May 22, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> The argument could be made that they might not truly understand it, but so what?  Why is this knowledge that is so wonderful guarded so closely?


Because knowledge is powerful.  I happen to think handguns are wonderful, but I don't give them those who are not properly trained in their use.  Let me tell you a true story.  I grew up around guns, my first wife did not.  In fact, she had never held a gun before.  One day, after we were married, I took her out to the gun range to teach her how to shoot a pistol.   I took her to the firing line and spent 20 minutes explaining gun safety to her.  Telling her "you always point the gun toward the target, never point it at anything behind the firing line.  Then I loaded the gun and demonstrated how to fire it.  Then I reloaded it, set it on the firing line, told her to try, and stepped behind her.  The first thing she did after picking up the gun was turn around, point it directly at my chest, and say "Wow, I could kill you."  That is a true story.

The point is that she had all the information, she was not ignorant.  But she was not psychology and emotionally prepared to have that much power in her hands.  

If you think about it, the case can easily be made that we don't teach secrets in Masonry.  In fact, I think that a much stronger case could be made that what we do is _prepare_ men to learn the secrets.  What we do is help make _good men better_.   I might even go so far as to say that the first thing a Mason must do is to _prepare himself emotionally and psychologically_.  No one should be given what they are unprepared to handle.


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## hanzosbm (May 22, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> If you think about it, the case can easily be made that we don't teach secrets in Masonry.  In fact, I think that a much stronger case could be made that what we do is _prepare_ men to learn the secrets.  What we do is help make _good men better_.   I might even go so far as to say that the first thing a Mason must do is to _prepare himself emotionally and psychologically_.  No one should be given what they are unprepared to handle.



I agree with this 100%.  And I would also say that the tools we are given/earn that are used to unlock that truth would be completely lost on someone who had not adequately prepared themselves.  (I myself was not properly prepared for years after I had been raised)  So while I totally agree that it would be wasted on the unprepared, let's go back to the concept of it being dangerous if you don't mind.  (by the way, I'm loving this conversation)

With a firearm, the dangers are obvious (I was a professional shooting instructor for a number of years, so I can totally relate to your story) but what of this knowledge?  Now, if we're going the full mystic route and one were to argue that there are incantations and magic that unlock abilities such as some Mystery Schools claim, then I completely see your point.  However, if they are the tools to making a good man better, what danger is there? 

For the record, I'm asking this somewhat rhetorically, not denying it.  In the Essenes Gospel of Peace (which most scholars believe to be a hoax), Jesus says something to the effect of ignoring the laws of Moses because they come from a dead man.  And that rather than following dogma set down by someone who is not in the here and now, to follow the living truth.  While I don't believe that these were actually the words of Jesus, I don't think it would be difficult to argue that dogma of almost all religions can and has been used twisted and perverted by many for unintended purposes.  Just as the anti-Masons out there twist our ideas into something they aren't and thus prevent those genuinely seeking truth from our door, maybe the fear this same problem happening on a more massive scale.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (May 22, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> Now, if we're going the full mystic route and one were to argue that there are incantations and magic that unlock abilities such as some Mystery Schools claim, then I completely see your point.  However, if they are the tools to making a good man better, what danger is there?





hanzosbm said:


> I don't think it would be difficult to argue that dogma of almost all religions can and has been used twisted and perverted by many for unintended purposes.  Just as the anti-Masons out there twist our ideas into something they aren't and thus prevent those genuinely seeking truth from our door, maybe the fear this same problem happening on a more massive scale.


I propose that you have answered your own question.  Aren't religions, as you said, "tools to making a good man better"?   And aren't they sometimes twisted exactly as you propose?   Let me add this thought to the discussion.

I propose that we think of what we teach not as tools but as abilities.  The first three liberal arts are grammar, rhetoric, and logic.  I man who possesses these abilities can sway the opinions of others.  Let us suppose that he is not a bad person, just full of ignorant opinions.  He has no intention of rallying people to do the wrong thing, he simply does not have the insight to urge his fellowman in the right direction.  I offer this example because I think that well intended but misguided people do a lot, if not most, of the harm in the world.

I see secrecy as a form of caution.


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## coachn (May 22, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> ...And what of the work of the genuine MM?


Travelling, Rendering the Master's Word, Collecting Due Wages, Contributing, Supporting, Learning and Teaching.


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## dalinkou (May 23, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Because knowledge is powerful.  I happen to think handguns are wonderful, but I don't give them those who are not properly trained in their use.  Let me tell you a true story.  I grew up around guns, my first wife did not.  In fact, she had never held a gun before.  One day, after we were married, I took her out to the gun range to teach her how to shoot a pistol.   I took her to the firing line and spent 20 minutes explaining gun safety to her.  Telling her "you always point the gun toward the target, never point it at anything behind the firing line.  Then I loaded the gun and demonstrated how to fire it.  Then I reloaded it, set it on the firing line, told her to try, and stepped behind her.  The first thing she did after picking up the gun was turn around, point it directly at my chest, and say "Wow, I could kill you.".



Wow.  That would have ended all present and future firearms discussions with me.  I have introduced basic gun safety to a couple of people, and I do not even have ammo in the same room until I am sure the rules are understood.

Anyway, point taken.  You cannot place something in someone's hands before they are ready for it.


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## coachn (May 23, 2015)

dalinkou said:


> ... You cannot place something in someone's hands before they are ready for it.


Well, you can, but that would be foolish. ;-)


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## coachn (May 23, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Because knowledge is powerful.  ...


I disagree.  Knowledge is not powerful.  It is Inventory and hence potential-filled; and there in lies the challenge as to who should receive such inventory and who should not.


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## dalinkou (May 23, 2015)

coachn said:


> Well, you can, but that would be foolish. ;-)



Point taken.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (May 23, 2015)

coachn said:


> I disagree.  Knowledge is not powerful.  It is Inventory and hence potential-filled; and there in lies the challenge as to who should receive such inventory and who should not.


(PWAC mumbles to himself) knowledge is not power.....knowledge is inventory.....knowledge is potential.....mmmmm, what is power? what utilizes inventory? what releases potential?  mmmmm, must remember to read my signature after posting this.


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## coachn (May 23, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> (PWAC mumbles to himself) knowledge is not power.....knowledge is inventory.....knowledge is potential.....mmmmm, what is power? what utilizes inventory? what releases potential?  mmmmm, must remember to read my signature after posting this.


lol!  KUDOS!!!

Power is Potential Flowing!


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## dfreybur (May 23, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> So the thought process is that these teaching were kept secret for fear that if they were disseminated to a larger audience, the volume of naysayers would drown out the teachings.  Is that about right?



Yes.  Deal with those who want to learn.

I have another suggestion - One way to hide a secret is to hang up a sign that says "This way to the secrets".  People go nuts looking for the secrets in the place the sign says.  So we say there are secrets in the ritual and folks look there for secrets.  Are there secrets in the ritual?  Sure but the simple ones appear in expose' books.  We just happen to have promised not to help anyone find they books.  That has a fun indirect effect of focusing the attention.  "Don't think of the weather" and "I promised not to help with that so you're on your own."

So we have very real secrets of the sort that can be shouted from the rooftops without anyone figuring it out, we we treat each other as kinfolk.  And so have secrets of the type that are secret because most of our members aren't interested enough for the topics to gather attention, sacred geometry.

Also many of our secrets are the sort that take good old fashioned hard work.  The fellowship of service together.  The results of long consistent study.  For most of the population the type of secret that takes 5+ years of study to approach, that secret is safe from them.  And bless the negative nannies for making it even more so.


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## Ripcord22A (May 25, 2015)

Candidate strikes the Wardens?  Noah based 3rd?  Never heard of this?


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## LAMason (May 25, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Candidate strikes the Wardens?


I have no idea where that comes from but it is not in the ritual for the Craft Lodge Degrees in Louisiana.



jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Noah based 3rd? Never heard of this?


See:
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/MADHAVAN_HiramicLegend.html


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## pointwithinacircle2 (May 25, 2015)

LAMason said:


> See:
> http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/MADHAVAN_HiramicLegend.html


Great read, thank you.


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## hanzosbm (May 26, 2015)

LAMason said:


> I have no idea where that comes from but it is not in the ritual for the Craft Lodge Degrees in Louisiana.
> 
> 
> See:
> http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/MADHAVAN_HiramicLegend.html


As a bit of a tangent, awhile back I did a significant amount of research about the shift in the Legend.  It actually goes pretty deep and potentially has some pretty powerful ramifications and tie back into the things we're discussing here.  I couldn't definitively tie all of the different stories together but my hypothesis was at least supportable.  I hate to tease like this, but without us being in a tyled setting, I wouldn't want to go much further.  Suffice to say, if one wants answers about obscure things, one needs to remember that while the Bible is the most common source of biblical knowledge, there are many other versions and histories that didn't make it into the Bible.  Upon digging into some of these, our Legends aren't as out of left field as you might think.


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## dfreybur (May 26, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> >Are there secrets in the ritual? Sure but the simple ones appear in expose' books.
> 
> I think you undersell the ritual.



Underselling the ritual isn't my usual stance.  I put a lot of time into pointing out layer after layer of symbolic meaning in the ritual.  That's the first level of what I mean by the simple secrets of the events that happen at the altar and the other secrets in the ritual that are layer after layer of symbolic meaning.

Brother Nagy makes a distinction between Freemasonry as the organization that uses the ritual to carry our values forward into future generations and Masonry as the practice of our meanings and values outside of ritual contexts.  I think that's what I have been trying to get at.

Our practice is built on top of and in addition to our ritual.  Much of our practice happens out in public but no matter how much the public sees they still don't get it.

Some of our practice is elitist, mystical, philosophical, whatever you want to call it.  It is also built on top of and in addition to our ritual.  This part is different for every brother who delves into its depths, which is why it gets described with so many names.  The "My Freemasonry" mentioned in the name of this forum is something we share among ourselves.  The "My Masonry" that is in addition to it is something we each find within ourselves.


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## dfreybur (May 27, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> >Underselling the ritual isn't my usual stance.
> 
> Sorry, I did not phrase that well.



I found it accurate enough.  As much effort as I normally put in selling the ritual, I put more value on the other types of secrets.  Think of a finger pointing and of a gaze that follows the pointing finger.  To a great extent the ritual is the pointing finger.  Without it we would not know where to look.  But the value is greater in following the extended line that of looking at the fingerprints.

The hand and finger, great value.  The gaze pointing into the distance that has been directed to the correct spot in the distance, even greater value.  There's a section that talks about points - The hand and the finger.  There's a section that talks about the mysteries - What the finger points at out there at a distance.


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## dalinkou (May 28, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> I have read that Masonic ritual is rather powerful and it is just as well that Masons are not very good at their ritual.
> 
> On a couple of occasions when demonstrating the inner effects of crossing the deacons wands, I had to cut short the demonstration as the brother standing under the wands was overloaded by the Light from on high.



?


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## coachn (May 28, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> I have read that Masonic ritual is rather powerful and it is just as well that Masons are not very good at their ritual.


Where?  and what does being *not very good at their ritual* have to do with it?  (your use of "their" raises a major flag!)


JamestheJust said:


> On a couple of occasions when demonstrating the inner effects of crossing the deacons wands, I had to cut short the demonstration as the brother standing under the wands was overloaded by the Light from on high.


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## LAMason (May 28, 2015)




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## hanzosbm (May 28, 2015)

Brothers, if I may...

Brother JamesTheJust may have some ideas that not all of us share, and that's okay.  I'm sure we have some ideas he doesn't necessarily agree with.  But shouldn't we keep an open mind about things?  Or at the very least, be respectful of one another's ideas?

Not from Freemasonry, but my college Greek fraternity had a lesson on esteem contained within its chief tenants.  "esteem, that is respectful to the honest convictions of others and refrains from treading upon that which is sacred to spirit and conscience".


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## coachn (May 28, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> Brothers, if I may...
> 
> Brother JamesTheJust may have some ideas that not all of us share, and that's okay.  I'm sure we have some ideas he doesn't necessarily agree with.  But shouldn't we keep an open mind about things?  Or at the very least, be respectful of one another's ideas?
> 
> Not from Freemasonry, but my college Greek fraternity had a lesson on esteem contained within its chief tenants.  "esteem, that is respectful to the honest convictions of others and refrains from treading upon that which is sacred to spirit and conscience".


Okay, so you open the can or worms.  Time to get specific: Where are the minds closed and where is the lack of respect?

BTW -
*"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof." *— Marcello Truzzi, _On the Extraordinary: An Attempt at Clarification, Zetetic Scholar, Vol. 1, No. 1, p. 11, 1978_​
* "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."* -- Carl Sagan

*"The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness."*
-- Laplace

*"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence", *and *"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish."* -- David Hume (1748)​


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## hanzosbm (May 28, 2015)

I'm not going to argue with you.  I've said my piece, do with it what you may.


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## coachn (May 28, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> I'm not going to argue with you.  I've said my piece, do with it what you may.


Who asked for an argument?  If you can't back it up, then why put it forth?


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## LAMason (May 28, 2015)

@ jamesthejust

What Lodge/Grand Lodge do you belong to?


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## LAMason (May 28, 2015)

Some members of this and other forums seem to believe that it is OK for someone to make false or outrageous statements and that if someone else calls them out on those claims that they are being intolerant and unmasonic.  I personally believe the opposite.  As a Mason I believe that Truth is important.  BS is BS regardless of who says it.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (May 28, 2015)

LAMason said:


> Some members of this and other forums seem to believe that it is OK for someone to make false or outrageous statements and that if someone else calls them out on those claims that they are being intolerant and unmasonic.  I personally believe the opposite.  As a Mason I believe that Truth is important.  BS is BS regardless of who says it.


Please clarify something for me.  I once had an experience where, while praying, a blinding white light appeared before me.  A specific religious figure (the one I was praying to) stepped out of the light and reached out to me.  As our hands touched I was given understanding that I had previously lacked.  Then the light faded and I was able to see the room around me again.  I stood up and walked away but I had a new understanding of everything around me.  That feeling has never really left me.

Now, was that truth or BS?  Is it false and outrageous?  What makes it false and outrageous other than the fact that you did not experience it?  Is it true?  How can you accept something as true when the only evidence of it is that I told you about it?  Is my description accurate or did my mind merely interpret an unfathomable experience in terms of the only symbols it knew?  And finally, suppose that experience had happened during a Masonic ritual instead of in a church.  Is my experience believable in one location and time but not in another?


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## LAMason (May 28, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Please clarify something for me.  I once had an experience where, while praying, a blinding white light appeared before me.  A specific religious figure (the one I was praying to) stepped out of the light and reached out to me.  As our hands touched I was given understanding that I had previously lacked.  Then the light faded and I was able to see the room around me again.  I stood up and walked away but I had a new understanding of everything around me.  That feeling has never really left me.
> 
> Now, was that truth or BS?  Is it false and outrageous?  What makes it false and outrageous other than the fact that you did not experience it?  Is it true?  How can you accept something as true when the only evidence of it is that I told you about it?  Is my description accurate or did my mind merely interpret an unfathomable experience in terms of the only symbols it knew?  And finally, suppose that experience had happened during a Masonic ritual instead of in a church.  Is my experience believable in one location and time but not in another?



With all due respect, I do not believe such things happen.


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## coachn (May 28, 2015)

Although my query was on evidence of disrespect, I'll take a shot at this.


pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Now, was that truth or BS?


Neither.  It was your experience.


pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Is it false and outrageous?


Neither.  It was your experience.


pointwithinacircle2 said:


> What makes it false and outrageous other than the fact that you did not experience it?


Someone else's judgment doesn't make it anything else but your experience.


pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Is it true?


It was your experience.  Your conclusion as to it being true or false is what you get from examining it and assigning it meaning.


pointwithinacircle2 said:


> How can you accept something as true when the only evidence of it is that I told you about it?


Well, you could use a metaphor or analogy to describe it and do so well enough that I can compare it to what I have experienced to see if there is anything that I can relate to. or equate it to, and then go from there.


pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Is my description accurate or did my mind merely interpret an unfathomable experience in terms of the only symbols it knew?


Why do you put this as an either/or?  Why not both, as in, your description IS accurate AND you mind merely interpreted it as you stated?


pointwithinacircle2 said:


> And finally, suppose that experience had happened during a Masonic ritual instead of in a church.  Is my experience believable in one location and time but not in another?


If the hallucination that you described above occurred anywhere, I'd still be more concerned with your relative state of health regardless.  These are not usual occurrences for people to have and there is usually an unusual body or mental stressor that causes it to occur.  This health concern is the only believability that I would take away from your description of your experience.

It sounds like an interesting experience though.  I have heard similar non-ordinary reality experiences from others who I know who are normally well-grounded in ordinary reality.  The common ground that these experiences all share though are unusual stressors.


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## dfreybur (May 28, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Please clarify something for me.  I once had an experience where, while praying, a blinding white light appeared before me.  A specific religious figure (the one I was praying to) stepped out of the light and reached out to me.  As our hands touched I was given understanding that I had previously lacked.  Then the light faded and I was able to see the room around me again.  I stood up and walked away but I had a new understanding of everything around me.  That feeling has never really left me.



When similar happened to me it was in a dream and after a year of pondering about it I decided for it to be my conversion experience.



> Now, was that truth or BS?  Is it false and outrageous?  What makes it false and outrageous other than the fact that you did not experience it?  Is it true?  How can you accept something as true when the only evidence of it is that I told you about it?  Is my description accurate or did my mind merely interpret an unfathomable experience in terms of the only symbols it knew?



True-for-me has no conflict with false-for-you.  Such experiences are always individual and subjective.

What I have to show in support of mine is that it is now nearly 30 years later and I remain devout in my religion of choice.  As you write - That feeling has never really left me, either.



> And finally, suppose that experience had happened during a Masonic ritual instead of in a church.  Is my experience believable in one location and time but not in another?



Hmmm.  Hmmm.  Nope, I got nothin'.  Pass.


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## LAMason (May 29, 2015)

I want to clarify and expand my previous comment.  I certainly believe that people have epiphanies and conversion experiences.  However I view those as similar to times when I have been thinking about problems in both my personal life and for work when seemingly out of nowhere the solution becomes clear.  I have even had times that I woke up in the middle of the night and knew the solution.  




_“The Myths of Innovation”_ (P 8), by Scott Berkun

As far as visions or hallucinations, that may accompany an epiphany or conversion experience, I can only say that I realize they are very real to the person experiencing them but determining the cause would depend on many factors and should be left to professionals, but also think that there is a vast difference between someone realizing that it was a vision or hallucination vs believing that it was real.

Compare and contrast someone relating a personal epiphany or vision to the following which include shared hallucinations and physical manifestations:



JamestheJust said:


> For various reasons I was the candidate in the 18th on 5 occasions over some years. On the 4th occasion, doing the perambulations it seemed to me that the floor had opened up like a vortex. Later the secretary told me that he could see me surrounded by light at that stage of the ceremony.
> 
> In that case my "hallucination" was shared.





JamestheJust said:


> I have read that Masonic ritual is rather powerful and it is just as well that Masons are not very good at their ritual.
> 
> On a couple of occasions when demonstrating the inner effects of crossing the deacons wands, I had to cut short the demonstration as the brother standing under the wands was overloaded by the Light from on high.





JamestheJust said:


> In one lodge I used to attend there was a chair in the North that was always left vacant for symbolic reasons.
> 
> I remember speaking to one of the oldest members of that lodge and he said that when he was an apprentice he rested his arm on the armrest of that chair in the North. Immediately he experienced his arm being pushed off the armrest - but there was no one nearby. He put his arm back on the rest and again it was pushed off.





JamestheJust said:


> For example, when the "working tools" are known and used in a "moral" sense it is possible to measure the "morality" of a fellow human, e.g. detecting and measuring corruption before any word or action occurs. Imagine how difficult it would be for the political system if such a skill were commonplace.
> 
> Equally a genuine FC might have a great insight into probabilities of the near future, able to make large profits from stock trading.
> 
> ...





JamestheJust said:


> There are also diagonal pavements that ought to be used when both Wardens are in the West e.g in some French workings, in the 18th and in the 30th. Those diagonal setups, when interacting with the Light from the East (but not the Light of the GAOTU) produce a different energy field, a bit further to the West than occurs with the Wardens at right angles.



I also find it revealing when someone is not willing to share what Masonic Jurisdiction they belong to.


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## coachn (May 29, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Quite so.


<sigh> Yet, the question still remains...


JamestheJust said:


> Truth is established by authority.


HUH?  Truth IS! and all that is necessary to see it is realization.


JamestheJust said:


> Alternatively Masonry might be a science ...


might?  If it's Masonry (not Freemasonry) it is both Science AND Art.


JamestheJust said:


> ...and therefore open to direct investigation by the brethren.


Masons who don't investigate, are likely only Freemasons.


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## Ripcord22A (May 29, 2015)

Coach why do you do that?  You know darn well that when someone on heresy mason they mean freemason unless they say operative mason.  Im familiar with your books and know you have alot of "free"masonic knowledge. However over the last few weeks I've been watching your posts and you come across  like a punk that knows full well what someone is saying but wants to make them feel stupid.....if that's not your intention then know you know that at least 1 brother feels that's how u cone across


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## pointwithinacircle2 (May 29, 2015)

LAMason said:


> With all due respect, I do not believe such things happen.


Your supposition about reality is correct if reality is limited to that which can be detected with the five physical senses.


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## coachn (May 29, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Coach why do you do that?


I disagree with what was put forth.  It is evasive, dogmatic and misleading.


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## LAMason (May 30, 2015)

I know we have gotten off topic, so I apologize for that.

First, let me reiterate that I am a literal person, so if someone sees metaphor and allegory in everything, they will probably not agree with my interpretation:

Second, for discussion purposes, I will state two stipulative definitions for “real” depending on the context of its usage.

1.  Actually existing as a thing. (Tangible)-must be able to be sensed by one of the 5 senses by others.

2.  Occurring in fact. (Genuine)-not necessarily sensed by one of the 5 senses by others.

In the context of your experience, of course it was Genuine.

In the context of what you saw it would need to be Tangible.

Since I have never had such an experience, I will have to rely on your perception of what you saw.  Did you perceive it as Tangible or as a vision/hallucination/something you imagined?

Was what you saw different than the visual, auditory, or tactile hallucinations that someone on drugs, with a mental illness, or experiencing delirium tremens might experience?


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## pointwithinacircle2 (May 30, 2015)

I have never had





LAMason said:


> visual, auditory, or tactile hallucinations that someone on drugs, with a mental illness, or experiencing delirium tremens might experience


so I cannot compare my experience to theirs.   The best explanation I can give you is to say that I choose to honor my intuition equally with the evidence of the five physical senses.  In Neurobiology concentrating on the information of the five senses is called focused thinking, while relaxing and letting the answers come to you is called diffused thinking.  Intuition and imagination are examples of diffuse thinking.  I am merely suggesting that if you only use your focused thinking you are making a choice to ignore both the way your brain naturally works and and the solutions that it is prepared to show you.


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## LAMason (May 30, 2015)

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Intuition and imagination are examples of diffuse thinking. I am merely suggesting that if you only use your focused thinking you are making a choice to ignore both the way your brain naturally works and and the solutions that it is prepared to show you.



I reject your strawman argument.  I did not say that intuition and imagination should be ignored.

I may imagine that I am in a boat riding down a river or I may actually be in a boat riding down a river, but I know difference.  I also did not say that intuition or emotions are suspect or unimportant because they can not be felt with the 5 senses but I know when I a using or feeling them.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (May 30, 2015)

LAMason said:


> I did not say that intuition and imagination should be ignored.


Perhaps I was not clear, my post was a description of an experience of total intuition, a moment where my intuition was so total that it momentarily overrode the inputs of my physical senses.  Is this a description of what you believe is not possible?


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## coachn (May 30, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> You might be selling yourself short if you believe you only have 5 senses.
> 
> I like to think that I have:
> 
> ...


The five senses use *biological inputs* that are processed internally. 

The moment you use the phrase "a sense of", you are using _*metaphor*_ to describe an internal condition.

BTW - I would add to your list: A Sense of Humor ;-)


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## coachn (May 30, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Although with the smelling of a story and of a lie there is often later evidence to support that sense so I am not sure your statement rings true.


LOL!  I feel ya!


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## GKA (Aug 2, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> >Are there secrets in the ritual? Sure but the simple ones appear in expose' books.
> 
> I think you undersell the ritual.
> 
> ...


I think there is some confusion here, some of what you ask is related to our ritual and as a mason, you should know this. some of this is not and never was part of any Masonic ritual or practice. If you listen to all that is presented to you, you will understand and come to see that there is no hidden secret in anything that we do. That which we choose to keep secret is only that of which our oaths refer, there is nothing more to it.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 27, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Deal is so many people are negative about anything they don't understand it is often expeditious to isolate a teaching from the fuss budget folks.


Makes sense.


pointwithinacircle2 said:


> I happen to think handguns are wonderful, but I don't give them those who are not properly trained in their use.


Same here.


coachn said:


> Travelling, Rendering the Master's Word, Collecting Due Wages, Contributing, Supporting, Learning and Teaching.


Very good!


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 7, 2019)

Why EA cannot attend MM meetings?


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## Ben_Zanaatkar (Mar 7, 2019)

JamestheJust said:


> In principle this is because an EA is not capable of withstanding the energies present in the MM lodge.  In practice this is unlikely to be a problem.
> 
> Still, on occasion when giving the MM knocks to open in that degree, even at a practice, there has been a definite shift in the energy in the temple, easily perceived by a number of brethren.  The question then arises: will the energy not come or withdraw if an EA is present.
> 
> Of course the ritual degree received has very little to do with the inner state of the  brother.



lol. Energy & Vibrations of MM can negatively affect EA?


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## coachn (Mar 8, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Why EA cannot attend MM meetings?


Thread hijacking?


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## coachn (Mar 8, 2019)

Good Lord!  They found each other!  Time to unfollow!


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## Bloke (Mar 8, 2019)

Ben_Zanaatkar said:


> Why EA cannot attend MM meetings?


Because and EA is not yet a MM. It's like asking why a high school kid cannot skip that and go straight to university.


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