# Fed employees make more than private sector



## JTM

Why don't we all go work for the government?  I mean, really?  Everyone should.  We'd all be making a ton of money:



> Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist both in government and the private sector, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The average pay for the same mix of jobs in the private sector was $60,046 in 2008, the most recent data available.
> These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.



edit: forgot the link: http://govcentral.monster.com/gover...source=nlet&utm_content=gc_c1_20100311_fedpay


----------



## drapetomaniac

I think one thing that should absolutely happen is Congressional wages being linked to the minimum wage. I find it ironic the people who fight to keep it low give themselves raises regularly.

I think the response if a fair one:
http://govcentral.monster.com/news/...rts-federal-employees-are-overpaid-misleading

Applying for my first job in Texas, I was asked to format a floppy disk. A similar job in the state or city government would have required a full educational history (i wouldn't have qualified because I didn't have a degree or equivalent experience - now I have equivalent experience), salary history, full references check and extremely specific requirements and or certifications.  I've worked for City, County and State level governments and none of those had easy processes to hiring.


----------



## JTM

including benefits, it's 110k for govt employee, 70k for private employee.  you really think that it's that huge of an education disparity?

and none of that process means anything at all.  that's why there is an entire industry devoted to helping you get through it.

AND government jobs require more work?  total B.S.  government jobs are the easiest types.


----------



## drapetomaniac

JTM said:


> AND government jobs require more work?  total B.S.  government jobs are the easiest types.



Well then the original study you cited was completely wrong, because it was supposed to be about jobs that exist int the private and public sector.



> Take registered nurses working at the Veterans Administration. They care for the complex injuries and illnesses of our wounded warriors and veterans. Partly reflecting the complexity of the care they deliver, nurses working for the federal government are more than twice as likely to have a college degree as those employed by the private sector (24 percent relative to 11 percent). As another example, database administrators are twice as likely to have a post-collegiate degree in the federal government as those working in the private sector (31 percent versus 16 percent).
> 
> Overall, roughly half the federal workforce has a college degree, compared to about a third in the private sector.
> ...
> So the bottom line is: when education and age are held constant, the entire difference in average pay between the federal and private sectors disappears.
> http://govcentral.monster.com/news/articles/25487-salary-statistics-from-the-omb-director





JTM said:


> including benefits, it's 110k for govt employee, 70k for private employee.  you really think that it's that huge of an education disparity?



Actually, that math matches almost exactly up with the numbers above and these  http://www.earnmydegree.com/online-education/learning-center/education-value.html

What level should government jobs be pegged at?  Should the guy running transportation in Disney land get paid more than the guy running it for Dallas?  Isn't that basically managing the government towards the vision of malicious incompetence people see it as?  Should nurses at the VA be purposefully paid lower than the private sector?  Should the people working in computer security, or security in general,  get paid less for government jobs?


----------



## JTM

Yes, they should get paid less.


----------



## Dave in Waco

It all depends on the field.  I'm in the IT field for my county.  We've had interns that, who couldn't install Office without directions, after getting their associates degrees went on to starting jobs making more then my Director.


----------



## JTM

Ideally for me, I wish working for the government was more like working for a not-for-profit company/organization.

And I suppose I'm not necessarily targeting county/city employees, because those guys usually don't make nearly as much as federal employees.


----------



## Papatom

Just think at what age they can retire compared to the private sector.


----------



## jim9361

JTM said:


> Yes, they should get paid less.



Then you believe that US Border Patrol Agents, Customs and Border Protection Officers and ICE Special Agents should be paid less then the local PD Officers and Sheriff's Deputies in their respective communities ?


----------



## Dave in Waco

jim9361 said:


> Then you believe that US Border Patrol Agents, Customs and Border Protection Officers and ICE Special Agents should be paid less then the local PD Officers and Sheriff's Deputies in their respective communities ?



Local PD Officers and Sheriff's Deputies aren't private sector, just local public.  And I believe in most cases local already makes less then fed.


----------



## drapetomaniac

jim9361 said:


> Then you believe that US Border Patrol Agents, Customs and Border Protection Officers and ICE Special Agents should be paid less then the local PD Officers and Sheriff's Deputies in their respective communities ?


 
You can simplify this - war contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan very often get paid better than our soldiers.

But, we like civil servants who carry guns.  It's the others that get dumped on.


----------



## Traveling Man

> Then you believe that US Border Patrol Agents, Customs and Border Protection Officers and ICE Special Agents should be paid less then the local PD Officers and Sheriff's Deputies in their respective communities ?



They ARE paid less, have you checked their wages? That's why it's easy for the cartels to suck them in with easy money. I talked with one on the U.S. side of Matomoros (the other day) and he said I didn't have a "Texas" acent; I told him he didn't either, he was from New York (Canadian Border) and they rotate them around the U.S. on an unpublished  schedule because they just fired 13 for accepting bribes... Check out those wages, please!

Me, myself? I want the "Lifetime" medical benefits that a two term congressman gets; no wonder they made themselves exempt from the new "slacker care" program!


----------



## drapetomaniac

Traveling Man said:


> They ARE paid less, have you checked their wages? That's why it's easy for the cartels to suck them in with easy money.


 
This is an important point.  One of the "social profiles" of risky employees is being underpaid.  They feel like they are owed something, so they take when they can.  That's in all sectors.


----------



## Traveling Man

drapetomaniac said:


> This is an important point.  One of the "social profiles" of risky employees is being underpaid.  They feel like they are owed something, so they take when they can.  That's in all sectors.



That's what you get when you hire individuals with "situational ethics". Low pay justifies this behaviour? I think not!
Letâ€™s stop insinuating that being poor or the lowest paid are dishonest or less honest shall we; didnâ€™t we visit this once before?

When individuals justifies their less than moral actions based upon â€œsituational ethicsâ€ it soon turns into a moral turpitude issue. Debauchery comes from all classes in our society.


----------



## drapetomaniac

Traveling Man said:


> That's what you get when you hire individuals with "situational ethics". Low pay justifies this behaviour? I think not!.


 
I think not either.  But people who have situational ethics will be hired no matter what (I've never passed an ethical exam nor have I been given one for a job).

The point is that if someone is looking for an excuse, low pay will be it.  If you remove that by *fair* pay, then their range of excuses gets lower.

And note - I said "underpaid" not low wage or poor.  

I've worked in jobs that very directly and specifically exploited their employees.  Which is unethical to begin with.


----------



## Traveling Man

drapetomaniac said:


> If you remove that by *fair* pay, then their range of excuses gets lower.
> 
> And note - I said "underpaid" not low wage or poor.
> 
> I've worked in jobs that very directly and specifically exploited their employees.  Which is unethical to begin with.



The employer has that option and so does the employee. As far as I can recollect no one is "forced" to work for substandard wages against their will. What an employee thinks their labour is worth verses what the market demands is often two different worlds apart.  
With the exportation of jobs I think that has become self evident. Maybe we all â€œthinkâ€ we are worth more than we actually are?


----------



## jim9361

Traveling Man said:


> They ARE paid less, have you checked their wages? That's why it's easy for the cartels to suck them in with easy money. I talked with one on the U.S. side of Matomoros (the other day) and he said I didn't have a "Texas" acent; I told him he didn't either, he was from New York (Canadian Border) and they rotate them around the U.S. on an unpublished schedule because they just fired 13 for accepting bribes... Check out those wages, please!
> 
> Me, myself? I want the "Lifetime" medical benefits that a two term congressman gets; no wonder they made themselves exempt from the new "slacker care" program!


 
Yes I have checked their wages. I check the wage of a Border Patrol Agent every two weeks when I get paid. I'm sorry for the leading questions but it really was not directed at you. I have friends that work for the local PD, SO and DPS and my pay is higher than all of them. Not bragging just stating fact and staying on subject. Furthermore, I have earned every penny busting my hump in this dusty little border town for the last 13 years. 

Also, your information about the unpublished rotations and the 13 that just got arrested for accepting bribes are false.

Apples and oranges. All are law enforcement but, I do not see how anyone can compare the job description of US Border Patrol Agents, Customs and Border Protection Officers and ICE Special Agents with that of PD Officers, Sheriffs Deputies and State Troopers. That's like comparing NBA players with NFL players. Both are athletes but play different games. *All in all, I do not see how a person can compare a federal law enforcement employee's pay with that of anybody in the private or other public sector.* Please never mix up congress with federal employees. With few exceptions the two are complete different branches of goverment.


----------



## Traveling Man

jim9361 said:


> Yes I have checked their wages. I check the wage of a Border Patrol Agent every two weeks when I get paid. I'm sorry for the leading questions but it really was not directed at you. I have friends that work for the local PD, SO and DPS and my pay is higher than all of them. Not bragging just stating fact and staying on subject. Furthermore, I have earned every penny busting my hump in this dusty little border town for the last 13 years.
> 
> Also, your information about the unpublished rotations and the 13 that just got arrested for accepting bribes are false.
> 
> Apples and oranges. All are law enforcement but, I do not see how anyone can compare the job description of US Border Patrol Agents, Customs and Border Protection Officers and ICE Special Agents with that of PD Officers, Sheriffs Deputies and State Troopers. That's like comparing NBA players with NFL players. Both are athletes but play different games. *All in all, I do not see how a person can compare a federal law enforcement employee's pay with that of anybody in the private or other public sector.* Please never mix up congress with federal employees. With few exceptions the two are complete different branches of goverment.



Well I guess I have to take a grain of salt (huge lum) with what CBPO and ICE tell me directly to my face. That's not the first time I've be lied to either...

Congress and Federal employees are indeed a horse of a different colour. Sorry!


----------



## JTM

jim9361 said:


> Then you believe that US Border Patrol Agents, Customs and Border Protection Officers and ICE Special Agents should be paid less then the local PD Officers and Sheriff's Deputies in their respective communities ?



those are two different jobs.  i'm saying comparable jobs in the private vs public sector... private sector should make more.  

if you patrolled the border for a private company, you should make more.  this idea that the govt has to offer more is crap.


----------



## jim9361

JTM said:


> those are two different jobs. i'm saying comparable jobs in the private vs public sector... private sector should make more.
> 
> if you patrolled the border for a private company, you should make more. this idea that the govt has to offer more is crap.



Please enlighten me brother.  What would you compare the job of a Border Patrol Agent with ?  BPA's are Fed employees.  While your at it can you tell me what the job description and duties of a Border Patrol Agent are ?  

I believe we are on the same sheet of music on comparisons.  (*** "*All in all, I do not see how a person can compare a federal law enforcement employee's pay with that of anybody in the private or other public sector". --Me ) *But we apparently disagree about my getting paid well for doing my job while you sleep comfortably in your bed at night.


----------



## JTM

jim9361 said:


> Please enlighten me brother.  What would you compare the job of a Border Patrol Agent with ?  BPA's are Fed employees.  While your at it can you tell me what the job description and duties of a Border Patrol Agent are ?
> 
> I believe we are on the same sheet of music on comparisons.  (*** "*All in all, I do not see how a person can compare a federal law enforcement employee's pay with that of anybody in the private or other public sector". --Me ) *But we apparently disagree about my getting paid well for doing my job while you sleep comfortably in your bed at night.


 
"Please enlighten me brother"  ?  Lol, don't get offended.  It's a discussion.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.  I'm saying that they BPAs and City cops are even close to the same job, therefore the pay shouldn't be compared. 

What this article is mostly talking about are the "Project managers," "Human resources," "Accountant," "Staff scientist."  

The one I know the most about is the research position.  A government researcher in an NIH lab essentially has an unlimited budget and makes way more with more benefits.  Those are the jobs everyone wants to get.

And what I'm getting at is that that situation is crap.  The federal scientist should make less than the private industry scientist.  

oh, and a brief summary:



> Border patrol agents, who are federal law enforcement officers, make sure that laws are observed when goods or people enter the United States. They work at ports of entry and all along the border to prevent smuggling and the entrance of illegal aliens.
> 
> One of their chief duties is covert surveillance along the border, using electronic sensors, infrared scopes, low-light television systems, and aircraft. They also conduct traffic and transportation checks at ports of entry; arrest aliens who live in this country illegally; and make suggestions to the courts about immigration matters, including applications for citizenship.


----------



## jim9361

JTM said:


> "Please enlighten me brother" ? Lol, don't get offended. It's a discussion.
> 
> I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that they BPAs and City cops are even close to the same job, therefore the pay shouldn't be compared.
> 
> What this article is mostly talking about are the "Project managers," "Human resources," "Accountant," "Staff scientist."
> 
> The one I know the most about is the research position. A government researcher in an NIH lab essentially has an unlimited budget and makes way more with more benefits. Those are the jobs everyone wants to get.
> 
> And what I'm getting at is that that situation is crap. The federal scientist should make less than the private industry scientist.
> 
> oh, and a brief summary:


 
No offense taken. It just gets me all riled up when discussions like this get started and a lot of misinformation is stated along the way. Through our back and forth I believe that we 99% agree with each other and have put out a pretty good picture of the facts. Thanks for the help. 

That being said please allow me to fix a few things here;
_Border patrol agents, who are federal law enforcement officers, make sure that laws are observed when goods or people enter the United States. They work at ports of entry and all along the border to prevent smuggling and the entrance of illegal aliens._ *Border patrol agent should be replaced with Customs and Border Protection Officer and remove all along the border and that would be a correct statement. CBPO's wear blue uniforms and work at ports of entry (air, sea and land ports). BPA's wear green uniforms and work along the border between the ports of entry. *

_One of their chief duties is covert surveillance along the border, using electronic sensors, infrared scopes, low-light television systems,_ *also by sign-cutting (tracking) use of ATV's riverine boats and forward operating bases in remote locations. There are a lot more methods, too many to list. *_and aircraft_ *No, Office of Air and Marine use aircraft. The USBP no longer has any pilots or aircraft.* _They also conduct traffic and transportation checks at ports of entry;_ *No, we do traffic and transportation checks on highways leading away from the borders and at USBP checkpoints, not at POE's* _arrest aliens who live in this country illegally_ *Nope, ICE Detention and Removal Office does that*_; and make suggestions to the courts about immigration matters, including applications for citizenship_ *Sorry no again, Customs and Immigration Services does that.*

Check out http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/careers/...areers/bp_agent/faqs_working_for_the_usbp.xml It will give you a pretty good picture what we are about.


----------



## Traveling Man

I think I see where this goes. Maybe you could riddle me this...

The last time I walked across the international bridge some guard was observing me smoking my Cuban cigar with his binoculars. My wife and I both noticed this as I was not finished yet and paced back and forth. He observed me in specific, I then pointed downward to some "international undocumented pedestrians" that were navigating below. We then saw him shrug his shoulders and then went back to watching me. Of course when I finished enjoying my cigar and then proceeded to enter the U.S. my person and my wifeâ€™s belongings were searched. This must be the separated functions that you describe above? I see it works very well; it's almost as efficient as having my baggage x-rayed three separate times by three separate U.S. federal agencies this week while exiting Puerto Rico. Between the above and TSA personnel arguing about the length of a wrench in my carry on luggage that had passed through three other flights at TSA â€œmannedâ€ inspections, they asked me, â€œif I wanted to pay for shipping it home?â€ I told them, â€œnice callâ€ as no one had a ruler and they had wasted more of â€œMYâ€ time than the wrench was worth; they could keep it and Merry Christmas; they asked me what â€œthatâ€ meant. (It wasnâ€™t Christmas). I now feel so secure!

I hate to be so cynical but thatâ€™s how it all appears from the other side. Your tax dollars at work!

With all of the machinations done above, while a middle eastern diplomat smokes on a flight. We get bullied, and they; get let goâ€¦


----------



## JTM

you saw people getting into the united states illegally, and he did as well, but they did nothing about it?  that's a shame.

as for smoking on a flight, is this in reference to this article (link)?  generally, a diplomat has immunity to our laws.  that's just the job.  fairness or anything like that has nothing to do with it.  neither does being "middle eastern."  however, it would appear that justice is being pursued by the normal way that this is done:



> Foreign diplomats in the United States, like American diplomats posted abroad, have broad immunity from prosecution. The official said if the man's identity as a Qatari diplomat was confirmed and if it was found that he may have committed a crime, U.S. authorities would have to decide whether to ask Qatar to waive his diplomatic immunity so he could be charged and tried. Qatar could decline, the official said, and the man would likely be expelled from the United States.



on an unrelated note:
it is my understanding that you can bring 50 dollars or less worth of cuban goods back into the country with you without a problem.  or that's what the agent told me last year when i went back through with a box of cubans from cozumel.

he asked me if i was bringing anything back with me (souvenirs), i showed him everything, he didn't have a problem with it.

now, normally i have a problem with people going through my luggage, but I, as a passenger on an international flight, knew my stuff would get searched, and I consented when I purchased my ticket and got on the plane.


----------



## Traveling Man

Merchandise from Embargoed Countries 

Generally, you may not bring in any merchandise from Cuba, Iran, Burma (Myanmar) or most of Sudan. The Office of Foreign Assets Control of the U.S. Department of Treasury enforces economic sanctions against these countries. To bring in merchandise from these countries, you will first need a specific license from the Office of Foreign Assets Control. Such licenses are rarely granted. You can write to the:


Office of Foreign Assets Control
Department of the Treasury
Washington, DC 20220

 Prohibitions on Cuban Cigars

There is a total ban on the importation into the United States of Cuban-origin cigars and other Cuban-origin tobacco products. This prohibition extends to such products acquired in Cuba, irrespective of whether a traveler is licensed by Office of Foreign Asset Controls (OFAC) to engage in Cuba travel-related transactions, and to such products acquired in third countries by any U.S. Traveler, including purchases at duty-free shops. Contrary to what many people may believe, it is illegal for travelers to bring into the United States Cuban cigars acquired in third countries, such as Canada, United Kingdom, or Mexico. 

So, I guess they lie to you too! I guess it pays to verify?


----------



## Traveling Man

> Foreign diplomats in the United States, like American diplomats posted abroad, have broad immunity from prosecution. The official said if the man's identity as a Qatari diplomat was confirmed and if it was found that he may have committed a crime, U.S. authorities would have to decide whether to ask Qatar to waive his diplomatic immunity so he could be charged and tried. Qatar could decline, the official said, and the man would likely be expelled from the United States.



I assume that that will sit up there with the multi millions of dollars worth of fines accumulated through parking tickets at the U.N. in NYC. This along with the rape cases etc. They NEVER choose to withdraw immunity.


----------



## JTM

or, they just let me through with it.  cool guys.


----------



## Traveling Man

JTM said:


> on an unrelated note:
> it is my understanding that you can bring 50 dollars or less worth of cuban goods back into the country with you without a problem.  or that's what the agent told me last year when i went back through with a box of cubans from cozumel.
> 
> he asked me if i was bringing anything back with me (souvenirs), i showed him everything, he didn't have a problem with it.
> 
> now, normally i have a problem with people going through my luggage, but I, as a passenger on an international flight, knew my stuff would get searched, and I consented when I purchased my ticket and got on the plane.


 
As I have seen many times when down in the Cribe; I have been asked if these (the one's they are showing me) are real Cuban Cigars. I try to avoid telling them the cigars they just purchased were counterfit. I asked them how do they smoke? If they enjoyed them; then they must be the real thing... Maybe that's why they never get taken from them? But I try not to burst anyones' bubble. It's just the ideal of the forbbiden fruit that makes certain cigars seem so superior. 

"If there is no [cigar] smoking in heaven, I shall not go"-Mark Twain


----------

