# Jolly Roger



## Isaih

Hi,
I'm interested in any books/references to the Jolly Roger symbol /flag and its connections with freemasonry.
Particularly English/American masons.

I believe it was used by the Jesuits once upon a time. Certainly the Templars, and Knights of St John .
 And that it is a reference to Jupiter and perhaps the ancient Phoenician pirates.

That's where I am stuck , cannot quite tie it altogether.

(I'm not a mason )


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## Mike Martin

There is no connection between the pirate flag called the Jolly Roger (Skull and bones) and Freemasonry!

The first thing that should be pointed out is that the Jolly Roger was not some "universal" flag employed by all pirates they had a variety of ensigns but as I'm not a Pirate I won't try to tell you about them I'm sure you can use google and wiki.

However the symbol that some Pirates employed was the skull and crossbones and in the wider context of symbolism this is called the "mementomori" which is latin and translates as "reminder that you will die" which is why they have been used for milennia to warn people that a thing (such as the contents of a bottle or a ship full of pirates) may cause them to die quicker if they are not careful.

In Masonic ceremonies the mementomori are used slightly differently and are described as "emblems of mortality" which are used to remind us that everyone sooner or later will die and that we as Masons should be extra careful to live life to the full and ensure that we don't die with regret in our hearts.

Many symbols used in Masonic ceremonies (such as triangles, the Bible, all-seeing eye, mementomori, etc, etc.) have been borrowed from elsewhere and retain their original meanings, which are then weaved into the Masonic story.  The ONLY symbols that are specifically Masonic are those that take their rise from the medieval Stone Masons' Trade.

I hope this helps you with your researches.


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## BryanMaloney

So, no rum?


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## Isaih

I've never heard of the mementomori, so thanks Mike , that gives me something to go on.
Brings to mind the promise to Adam and Eve by god and the counter promise  by the serpent.

Is there a book the profane can read on this topic?
Do you know if the double headed phoenix is a symbol of piracy?

My interest is in privateering. The use of them by the pope, and then English monarchs and subsequently their employment by the early soverign states of America.


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## Mike Martin

Sorry, I maybe should have been clearer. 

There is no link between Freemasonry and Piracy at all, so I am afraid that unless this Forum has a member who is also a Pirate or an expert on Pirates we're not going to be able to help you. 

Maybe you should search for a forum based on "Piracy" or maybe even "Naval History", this is a Forum for people to discuss and learn about Freemasonry with Freemasons.


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## Isaih

Thanks Mike,
Anyone interested in my freemason/pirate theory that may wish to help me with information

http://isaih520.wordpres.com/prize-law-theory/


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## BryanMaloney

Isaih said:


> I've never heard of the mementomori, so thanks Mike , that gives me something to go on.
> Brings to mind the promise to Adam and Eve by god and the counter promise  by the serpent.
> 
> Is there a book the profane can read on this topic?
> Do you know if the double headed phoenix is a symbol of piracy?
> 
> My interest is in privateering. The use of them by the pope, and then English monarchs and subsequently their employment by the early soverign states of America.



The momento mori is very widely used throughout European history. Supposedly, the phrase was used to someone who was given a Triumph in the Roman Empire. Going through the whole parade, cheered by the crowd, the hero had someone following him the whole time, saying "Remember, you will die." Once Western Rome receded and was replaced by Europe, it became a common feature of European art. If you look at European painting and sculpture from the Middle Ages through the 1800s, you will easily find skeletons, skulls, etc., somehow there, kind of odd-looking. Each is a memento mori. The Masons didn't invent it. Masons adopted it as a commonly-understood symbol of wisdom: "Remember, you will die."

As time went on and the West decided to cut its own throat and bleed its cultural heritage out onto the ground, fewer and fewer people understood the symbol. As Hollywood fantasy replaced historical knowledge, it became a "pirate symbol" or something entirely divorced from traditional meaning and invested with new, lunatic crackpot, significance. Welcome to the 21st century.


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## Mike Martin

Isaih said:


> Thanks Mike,
> Anyone interested in my freemason/pirate theory that may wish to help me with information
> 
> http://isaih520.wordpress.com/prize-law-theory/



I'm sorry but what the heck has that got to do with anything that actually happened in British History??? Have you even heard of Henry VIII one of the most famous of English Kings who ended the rule of Rome within his Kingdom.

MORE IMPORTANTLY though you have a complete non-grasp on what Freemasonry actually is. You need to start again as you have based your paper on fallacious material.


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## dfreybur

Isaih said:


> Thanks Mike,
> Anyone interested in my freemason/pirate theory that may wish to help me with information
> 
> http://isaih520.wordpress.com/prize-law-theory/



Wow.  That's insane ranting.  I pray for your mental healing.  Using the ignore feature on you for a while until/unless I see good evidence to reverse that.


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## Isaih

Mike the queen appoints   the Knights of St John today to adminster the law
These same knights were disbanded by Henry v111. Outlawed.
And yet there they  are  now with enormous power. Power  over the Bar Associations, amongst other things.



And you're right of course I have no way to understand freemasonry, but I wonder how many masons really understand it.
Or more especially who they are working for.

The way its set up, its not impossible you could be an American working for the (papist) British to overthrow the sovereignty of your own country  your whole life, and never be aware of it. Would you not agree that is possible?

While you are  dabbling in Gnosticism, the real fruits of your allegiance may well be treason. Unbeknownst to you.

1688 Glorious Revolution- protestant victory
1717  first Grand Lodge is opened in England, the very same religion as practiced by the knights of st John who Henry v11i outlawed

Anyhow its just a theory based on a chance discovery I made that Imperial Prize Acts were used to form government in Canberra 2 years after we declared independence from Britain with the Australia Act.

And when I looked into the actual men who were  instrumental in these changes, I keep seeing Irish Catholics in Australia and freemasons.
And then in following the necessary changes to Prize Law , took me to America where its just freemasons responsible.

Anecdotally, masons I know hated the catholics a generation ago. As I do.
Police here used to have a catholic shift and a freemason shift, because they didn't like each other.
Now they think the pope's a great guy.

So something stinks to high heaven.

My theory I'm sure isn't a perfect explanation of what happened and why, which is why I am trying to research. Imperial Prize Law used to form government is a smoking gun though, to my mind. The rest is thin and I need help from men in-the-know to flesh it out with further evidence.

My understanding of British  History is through Maccauley, which is pretty standard.
And of course reading the laws /trials and the words of the men of the day.
And using the 2 pillars of Solomon to get to the truth.

Americans tend to think their revolution made them free.
I wonder if their understanding of British history is sound.
You were free with a Bill of Rights prior to the revolution.

And was it not freemasons behind the Boston Tea Party?

Was Napolean not a freemason? Perhaps the most successful one. And certainly a man with enormous power. Yet did he not put his own demise down to the Jesuits?
If he could be used, knowing what he knew, with the power he had. Couldn't you?


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## Mike Martin

I'm only going to correct your errors about Freemasonry then I've done enough as you are just making up stories.

In 1717 4 Lodges in London started the first Grand Lodge in the world. However Freemasonry is not a religion and it was not practised by anyone other tha Free and Accepted Masons.

No, Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte was NOT a Freemason but his brothers were.


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## Isaih

Ok thanks Mike.
I had assumed he was by the hand in the jacket in portraits.
Maybe Josephine gave him the crabs and he was having a scratch.

edit:
You threw my whole understanding of the demise of the pope out of whack Mike, so I had to look for some actual sources that he was one.
Unless you're suggesting he was a mason then was kicked out of the order.

Chris Hodapp, 33rd degree Scottish Rite from Indiana says he has proof that he was
http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com.au/2011/11/manuscript-naming-napoleon-bonaparte.html

The pope banished the Jesuits 1773(to Corsica), he was poisoned and a generation later, 1798, one of the most significant events of modern history occurs.
The pope is dethroned by Napolean. (perhaps fulfilling the prophecy of Daniel).

Then the freemason Napolean sees his own demise.

And the victor rising from the ashes is the Jesuits who from then on control the office of the pope.

If I was a freemason looking from today's perspective at those events, I'd realise that the Jesuits control freemasonry. And as most freemasons that count are protestants, the Jesuit's  sworn enemy, I'd form the opinion I was being duped and used , after a critical examination of the Napolean outcome.

However if Napolean is not a freemason I would not draw those conclusions.

Therefore there could well be a motivation to distance freemasonry from Napolean.
Destruction of records and so on, so freemasons don't become savvy to who their puppetmasters are.
Or perhaps he  wasn't a freemason but rose to power independantly through extraordinary good fortune, and Josephine gave him the crabs.


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## Brother JC

Hodapp merely reported the existence of a document. There is no proof of its validity. In fact, it gets pretty well shot down in the comments. Your arguments, in general, are standard pablum, regurgitated by the same people who cry "Illuminati" every time they see an eyeball.
Anglo Catholics venerate the same Saints as Roman Catholics. That doesn't make them Papists.
Also, what the hell does a hand in a jacket have to do with the Craft? Nothing.


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## Morris

I think he's teaching for his wallet.


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## Mike Martin

Isaih said:


> edit:
> You threw my whole understanding of the demise of the pope out of whack Mike, so I had to look for some actual sources that he was one.
> Unless you're suggesting he was a mason then was kicked out of the order.
> 
> Chris Hodapp, 33rd degree Scottish Rite from Indiana says he has proof that he was
> http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com.au/2011/11/manuscript-naming-napoleon-bonaparte.html


OK just one more.

The document refers to "Bro. Bonaparte" not "Bro. N. Bonaparte" and as we know for historical fact that Napoleon's brother Joseph was a Freemason it would be ridiculous to somehow make it Napoleon who is being referred to, unless of course you're trying to sell a book.

Some people, I include you in this based on what you have supplied so far, seem able to make huge leaps of faulty logic without doing enough actual research into their subject matter.

Fin.


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## Warrior1256

dfreybur said:


> Wow.  That's insane ranting.  I pray for your mental healing.  Using the ignore feature on you for a while until/unless I see good evidence to reverse that.


Weird stuff indeed!!!!


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## Isaih

trysquare I think 'standard pablum' is an unfair accusation of my so called arguments.( I had to look up the word pablum) Neither are they regurgitated.
My country is being conquered through the backdoor Through the law.
I am trying to figure out how and why.
Unlike you guys, I don't have anyone holding my hand and guiding me. I have to figure it out myself .
And as the paths of evidence are usually swept over, one must make intuitive leaps of logic to get anywhere.

And I don't cry illuminati.. Do you really suppose the men who run this world would allow the latest hiphop star to join them? I don't..
If I ran the world and let some galoot join me because he was superfly and don't take no shit from his bitches, I wouldn't be running it for too long.

I am a protestant, the enemy is the same named in our law, named by our forefathers, and shown through bible prophecy.
I think most freemasons must be as horrified as I am at the takeover of our law by the Roman Catholic church. The destruction  of the protestant aspect in the British Constitution in recent years is extremely dangerous to men who  like the freedom to believe what they wish.. If history is any guide.
And if Napolean is any guide, the Jesuits will eat their daughters when they've served their purpose.


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## BryanMaloney

This is such typical lunatic conspiracy theory.


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## Isaih

This lunatic conspiracy theory is written in our foundational law.
The true Bill of Rights 1688


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## BryanMaloney

No, that document does not say that the Pope is trying to take over the world. Sorry. Do you ever get outdoors?


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## Isaih

yes Bryan, I live in the country.
From your name I summise your heritage is Irish Catholic. And thus you may not be aware of the standard protestant beliefs.
If you read any English history from the turbulent years when we freed ourselves from the pope, you'll see my thoughts are echoed by men of stature and learning.
The mighty men of history, my protestant forefathers.
The pope also claims temporal and spiritual rule over every soul on earth.

I think if you take the time to read up on the period of the 17th and 18th century you'll see this is pretty standard history. And the Bill of Rights should be read in the context of the beliefs at the time.


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## Morris

Isaih said:


> If I ran the world and let some galoot join me because he was superfly and don't take no shit from his bitches, I wouldn't be running it for too long.



What's the difference between fly and superfly and how do I reach this pinnacle?


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## Brother JC

Let's see... first, I never said you cried Illuminati (a long-dead organization with no more connection to the all-seeing eye than the cover of a novel forty-odd years ago), I made a comparison of you and other conspiracy theorists. Second, you're quoting a blog post from three years ago as "proof" of something. That's regurgitation. It's also unacceptable as source material. Nothing you've put forth so far would hold up in a secondary school class, more or less a serious discussion of world politics.


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## Isaih

trysquare if I am regurgitating a theory of someone else by coincidence I'm unaware of it.
You might try being specific.
Unless general insults and ad hominem attacks are considered honourable by your lights.
In which case we will never learn from each other.
And further conversation is pointless.


jmorris that's a great question . I suppose there must be a difference between fly and superfly


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## Warrior1256

BryanMaloney said:


> This is such typical lunatic conspiracy theory.


No kidding!!!!!! This stuff is whacked.


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## Brother JC

Isaih, you've taken down your paper, so it's difficult to be more specific. I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm being critical of what I find to be a flawed theory based on suppositions. If you're going to claim a global conspiracy spanning six centuries, you're going to need to cite more references than one history book and a blog. Editors will be far more critical than I have been.
Out.


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## BryanMaloney

Isaih said:


> yes Bryan, I live in the country.
> From your name I summise your heritage is Irish Catholic. And thus you may not be aware of the standard protestant beliefs.
> If you read any English history from the turbulent years when we freed ourselves from the pope, you'll see my thoughts are echoed by men of stature and learning.
> The mighty men of history, my protestant forefathers.
> The pope also claims temporal and spiritual rule over every soul on earth.
> 
> I think if you take the time to read up on the period of the 17th and 18th century you'll see this is pretty standard history. And the Bill of Rights should be read in the context of the beliefs at the time.



I am QUITE aware of standard Protestant beliefs. I have attended Methodist and Baptist congregations at various times in my life. To presume from my name that I must be Catholic? What is the origin of this bigotry on your part? I have read a great deal of English history, and it does not support lunatic conspiracy theories like the Pope trying to take over the world. Your smug attempt to "lecture" me only shows off your own bigotry and ignorance. My NAME means that I have no familiarity with Protestantism? Who is such a lunatic and bigot as to believe that?


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## Warrior1256

BryanMaloney said:


> I am QUITE aware of standard Protestant beliefs. I have attended Methodist and Baptist congregations at various times in my life. To presume from my name that I must be Catholic? What is the origin of this bigotry on your part? I have read a great deal of English history, and it does not support lunatic conspiracy theories like the Pope trying to take over the world. Your smug attempt to "lecture" me only shows off your own bigotry and ignorance. My NAME means that I have no familiarity with Protestantism? Who is such a lunatic and bigot as to believe that?


Most excellent point.


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## Vincit qui se vincit

Mike Martin said:


> There is no connection between the pirate flag called the Jolly Roger (Skull and bones) and Freemasonry!
> 
> The first thing that should be pointed out is that the Jolly Roger was not some "universal" flag employed by all pirates they had a variety ensigns but as I'm not a Pirate I won't try to tell you about the I'm sure you can use google and wiki.
> 
> However the symbol that some Pirates employed was The skull and crossbones and in the wider context of symbolism this called the "mementomori" which is latin and translates as "reminder that you will die" which is why they have been used for milennia to warn people that a thing (such as the contents of a bottle or a ship full of pirates) may cause them to die quicker if they are not careful.
> 
> In Masonic ceremonies the mementomori are used slightly differently and are described as "emblems of mortality" which are used to remind us that everyone sooner or later will die and that we as Masons should be extra careful to live life to the full and ensure that we don't die with regret in our hearts.
> 
> Many symbols used in Masonic ceremonies (such as triangles, the Bible, all-seeing eye, mementomori, etc, etc.) have been borrowed from elsewhere and retain their original meanings, which are then weaved into the Masonic story.  The ONLY symbols that are specifically Masonic are those that take their rise from the medieval Stone Masons' Trade.
> 
> I hope this helps you with your researches.



I am sorry brother, but you are wrong - There IS a connection. Some freemasons were actual pirates FACT, our oaths, grips and symbols are not only just from operative stone mason guilds.


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## Vincit qui se vincit

Mike Martin said:


> I'm only going to correct your errors about Freemasonry then I've done enough as you are just making up stories.
> 
> In 1717 4 Lodges in London started the first Grand Lodge in the world. However Freemasonry is not a religion and it was not practised by anyone other tha Free and Accepted Masons.
> 
> No, Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte was NOT a Freemason but his brothers were.



The first grand lodge may have started in England. but it most certainly not the oldest. The oldest Grand Lodge in continuous existence is the Grand Lodge of Ireland - FACT

I also worry brother that you don't actually know what Freemasonry is.. It is most certainly not about conventional stone masonry.

and spouting out quotes from wiki and google about 'memento mori' shows how little you factually know about the subject. You said "The ONLY symbols that are specifically Masonic are those that take their rise from the medieval Stone Masons' Trade." our initiations are not masonic then brother?  

I am in Northern Ireland and frequently visit UGLE lodges and higher orders and am most happy to debate with you


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## Mike Martin

Vincit qui se vincit said:


> I am sorry brother, but you are wrong - There IS a connection. Some freemasons were actual pirates FACT, our oaths, grips and symbols are not only just from operative stone mason guilds.


Nice assertion and if, as you say, it is a FACT you will be able to supply me with their names and Lodges details won't you?


Vincit qui se vincit said:


> The first grand lodge may have started in England. but it most certainly not the oldest. The oldest Grand Lodge in continuous existence is the Grand Lodge of Ireland - FACT


NOT a fact at all as supported by the other Home Grand Lodges, including your own (if, as you insinuate, are a member of a Lodge under the Grand Lodge of Ireland). The Premier Grand Lodge of England (1717) did not miraculously disappear in 1813 it merged with the "Antients" Grand Lodge of England (1756) and went forward under the Grand Master of the Premier Grand Lodge at its helm. This is why there are still Lodges from both in operation today.



Vincit qui se vincit said:


> I also worry brother that you don't actually know what Freemasonry is.. It is most certainly not about conventional stone masonry.


Err, you've lost me there?



Vincit qui se vincit said:


> and spouting out quotes from wiki and google about 'memento mori' shows how little you factually know about the subject. You said "The ONLY symbols that are specifically Masonic are those that take their rise from the medieval Stone Masons' Trade." our initiations are not masonic then brother?


Ha ha if you've found that explanation on wiki (whatever that is) it means that someone has found it here since I wrote it (four years ago) and copied it. Good luck to them in recognising accurate information.



Vincit qui se vincit said:


> I am in Northern Ireland and frequently visit UGLE lodges and higher orders and am most happy to debate with you


I tend to avoid people who start off a debate in "attack" rather than "help" mode, so this will be my only answer to you I'm afraid. That is unless you start a topic which interests me, of course.


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## Warrior1256

Mike Martin said:


> I tend to avoid people who start off a debate in "attack" rather than "help" mode, so this will be my only answer to you I'm afraid. That is unless you start a topic which interests me, of course.


Well said Brother.


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## jermy Bell

So, showing up to degree work dressed as a pirate is out of the question?


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## Warrior1256

jermy Bell said:


> So, showing up to degree work dressed as a pirate is out of the question?


aaarrrrrrrrr!


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## Keith C

I will only add to this mess by recalling a part of the Charge when I was Entered.

"He is not to neglect his own necessary avocations for the sake of Freemasonry, *nor to involve himself in quarrels with those who through ignorance may speak evilly or despitefully of it."
*
The ignorance to me is clearly displayed, so I will pass.


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