# Converts



## js4253 (Dec 28, 2008)

We had a Prince Hal Mason petition our Lodge.  He had to quit Prince Hall and start from scratch with Texas Masonry.
Do think they should have to go through all the degree work?  What if they were able to take a proficiency exam to prove themselves?


----------



## jonesvilletexas (Dec 28, 2008)

I belive that he should start from scratch.


----------



## gortex6 (Dec 28, 2008)

Just curious.  Is he military?


----------



## eagle1966 (Dec 28, 2008)

from scratch; how was petition received amoung the brethren of the lodge?


----------



## js4253 (Dec 28, 2008)

gortex6 said:


> Just curious.  Is he military?



Yes.  He was in the military when he joined PH.

Before anyone asks, he is white.


----------



## rhitland (Dec 28, 2008)

How could anybody not want to go throught he degrees again unless they are poorly done but I would jump at the chance to go through them again as the first time probably will before it is all said and done.


----------



## Wingnut (Dec 28, 2008)

I would bet military overseas and now back...

Since the GL of TX recognizes them to be Masons, I think a good argument could be made they shouldn't have to start over, just pass the proficiencies...


----------



## js4253 (Dec 28, 2008)

Wingnut said:


> I would bet military overseas and now back...
> 
> Since the GL of TX recognizes them to be Masons, I think a good argument could be made they shouldn't have to start over, just pass the proficiencies...



Think about this.  If he had petitioned a Lodge in a state that has fraternal relations with PH and become a member.  He could have transferred his membership to Texas.  Strange,No?


----------



## jwardl (Dec 28, 2008)

js4253 said:


> Yes. He was in the military when he joined PH.
> 
> Before anyone asks, he is white.


 

A brother went through our lodge recently in exactly the same circumstances. He went through all three degrees again, too.

I heard second-hand that the PH brothers had a bit of fun with his race during his initiation in the military lodge -- all in good spirits. It was pretty funny, actually.


----------



## Blake Bowden (Dec 29, 2008)

As much as I would like them to be an integral part of, in this case, Texas Freemasonry (Under GLofTX), I respect their choice to remain a separate entity. However, I wish the dialogue between the two Fraternities was open. I would like to visit a PH Lodge. On the same token I would hope the doors of my Lodge would be open to PH Masons. It really boils down to respecting each other as MASONS...FIRST. But if a PH Mason applies for membership, I feel he should go through all the work.


----------



## rhitland (Dec 29, 2008)

_Think about this. If he had petitioned a Lodge in a state that has fraternal relations with PH and become a member. He could have transferred his membership to Texas. Strange,No? _

that is funny, I really want to post some saracastic coment as this law really makes me want to spit as my mom would say. I am so embarresed to admit we do not allow Prince Hall Masons in our Lodges it seems to go against all that we teach. Thank Goodness GM Broughton and others got us as far as they did it was a monumental step in the right direction. Think about the influence Masonry could have if we all combine our resourses and learn to work together.


----------



## JTM (Dec 29, 2008)

this was discussed here a while back, and excuse my ignorance about the subject, but it seemed to me that it was PHA that didn't want to move forward towards recognition...


----------



## nick1368 (Dec 29, 2008)

JTM said:


> this was discussed here a while back, and excuse my ignorance about the subject, but it seemed to me that it was PHA that didn't want to move forward towards recognition...



Youu are right, the PHM didn't want to move forward, they liked it the way it was/is.  I have several friends who work as police men and are PHM.  They did not like the idea of recognizing GLOT.
  I say whatever...if we were all together we could be a driving force however I think we should respect each others wishes as to what each side is willing to do...


----------



## gortex6 (Dec 30, 2008)

js4253 said:


> Yes.  He was in the military when he joined PH.
> 
> Before anyone asks, he is white.



I knew it.  This happens ALOT!  PHA has a very large presence on military posts and the whole international gordian knot of grand lodge recognition is probably not explained up front.



js4253 said:


> Think about this.  If he had petitioned a Lodge in a state that has fraternal relations with PH and become a member.  He could have transferred his membership to Texas.  Strange,No?



I wonder this as well.  What if a GL of TX mason were to petition joint membership to UGLE or a jurisdiction that shared reciprocity with both the PHA GL and GL of TX, then would visitation or transfer be possible?  Each time I ask someone this they give dirty looks, roll their eyes, and I get a negative reaction.  Plus, isn't PHA GL of both California and Connecticutt recognized by GL of TX?  Look in the book....


----------



## rhitland (Dec 30, 2008)

_ Youu are right, the PHM didn't want to move forward, they liked it the way it was/is. I have several friends who work as police men and are PHM. They did not like the idea of recognizing GLOT.
I say whatever...if we were all together we could be a driving force however I think we should respect each others wishes as to what each side is willing to do..._

I think it was equal to the number of members on both sides that despised the action of recognizing each other as Masons and people for it, but wisdom was seen in recognition and we took the first step. I could only imagine the hard feelings some of these old guys have for each other after what they saw and experciened in their times and I think it is wise to slowly join forces as not to scare the idea off, it is just really hard to wrap my mind around this issue having not seen and been through what they have been through. This country and the people in it have come millions of miles since the "Crow Laws" that where so wrong and injust; and I for one have the patience to wait for the change to complete itself but that does not mean I will wait without exerting efforts to change it. Peace and Harmony is my first and middle name and my constant goal.


----------



## jwardl (Dec 30, 2008)

Wise counsel, brother.

A good point. I hate to admit it, but I'm aware of some brothers of advanced years in some lodges who, despite GL directives, are in no hurry for integration. There are no black brothers in their lodges, and they will do their part to keep it that way because those are the "values" they grew-up with. I don't understand how they can speak of brotherly love and meeting on the level with those attitudes, but that's a subject for another thread.

As the saying goes, Rome wasn't built in a day. Patience and fortitude, with a steady hand, will eventually yield the changes most of us (imho) are ready for.


----------



## gortex6 (Dec 30, 2008)

jwardl said:


> A brother went through our lodge recently in exactly the same circumstances. He went through all three degrees again, too.
> 
> I heard second-hand that the PH brothers had a bit of fun with his race during his initiation in the military lodge -- all in good spirits. It was pretty funny, actually.



Some of their antics are not as humorous.  Pretty disgusting if you ask me.




http://www.themaac.com/paddles.html


----------



## jwardl (Dec 30, 2008)

Hmmm... have heard tales of paddling going on in PHA ceremonies, but never assumed them true, given what many say about blue lodge ceremonies that simply aren't so.

Even so, if this typical or an isolated incident? Never saw the value of hazing as an initiatory practice by any group in any situation. Good-natured kidding -- fine, but nothing that causes the initiate physical harm or real pain, or is intended to embarrass him.

One thing I'm proud of in the blue lodge is that we can (and do) tell initiates that no harm will come to them during the ceremony, nor will anything be done with the intent to embarrass them.


----------



## rhitland (Dec 30, 2008)

Many out of state and overseas Masons make the statment that we have a possible embarising moment for the candidate in the EA degree if he at the sec. desk in the 2nd part forgets something important, I know I was as embarased as I could be when I did the wrong thing. These Mason I have talked with or read about no longer or never did this part in there ritual and claim it cause us and other states to lose EA's. I for one do not think it causes us to lose members UNLESS someone is being childish about it otherwise it drives that lesson home like it did me. I thought I was toast but my new Brothers told me what it was all about and that some had done the same actually amny had done the same. lol


----------



## JTM (Dec 30, 2008)

if they leave because they were embarrassed at the sec's desk, i have no problem not seeing them again.  lol.


----------



## jwardl (Dec 30, 2008)

Never thought of this part as being embarrassing, regardless of what happens. STARTLING at times, perhaps.


----------



## Blake Bowden (Dec 31, 2008)

Sorry, but I don't see how these incidents should tarnish Prince Hall. As far as alcohol poisoning, blame the individual and not the Fraternity.


----------



## jwardl (Dec 31, 2008)

Don't personally see them as tarnishing PHA; this was one incident and may or may not be representative of the fraternity in general -- insufficient information. So far as this specific soldier was concerned, the family has my condolences, but it doesn't appear that he was FORCED to do anything, nor was his untimely death a direct result of his experience. The story does point out that the soldier had a history of alcohol abuse, and it was his choice to consume too much.

The tragic ending aside, I can find no value in using a paddle on a candidate for any part of masonry, certainly not violently enough to leave bruises, particularly in one of the areas mentioned. Was that an initiation or a Benny Hill skit?


----------



## TCShelton (Jan 2, 2009)

I know an OLD PH mason, and he started out as a regular mason, then went to PH.  This was about 40 years ago, and they wanted him to go through the degrees again, and he said that he wouldn't.  He suggested that they try him instead, and he passed with flying colors.  I like this solution much better.


----------



## Bill Lins (Jan 2, 2009)

Indeed, why not offer them the chance to demonstrate their proficiency? Works for me.


----------



## TexMass (Jan 2, 2009)

Military huh?  If an guy gets out of the Army and decides he wants to go into the Navy he doesn't have to go through camp again just a 4 week course to introduce the way things are done in that branch.  Are the degrees REALLY necessary in this case?  Maybe, maybe not.  That's a tough one.  I think to go through the degrees may earn you more respect.


----------



## ravickery03 (Jan 3, 2009)

I agree with most of what has been written here, I do believe that he should go through again.

I would also send a private message to Bro Milken as he is a Prince Hall Mason that was a member of the GL of TX.  I think he could give you some good insight.


----------

