# Why do we hold stated meetings on the MM degree only?



## CLewey44 (Jan 9, 2019)

I understand some districts or GLs allow for stated meetings to be held on pretty much any degree. However, most BLs, whether allowed or not, hold their meetings on the MM degree. This is an old topic I understand but something I've been thinking about lately.

We have four new EAs at my lodge. I am doing a presentation in a few weeks and wanted them to see it but don't expect them to come to the meeting, sit out in the hallway while we vote on paying the water bill and then have them come back in an hour later to see my 10-15 minute presentation. 

I think for one, doing things 'the way we always have' sort of cheapens the first two degrees and says to EAs/FCs, "you're inferior to us MMs" and can't really participate in LODGE unless it's a degree 'equal to or below you'.  If I recall correctly, EAs and FCs were very much present at King Solomon's Temple, whether on the gnd fl or MC.

There was a time and still is in some countries, being an FC was a big deal and to me still is here as they have a lot of 'light' imparted on them.

Just to clarify, I've not read any GL stance or regulation on this so maybe it's one of those "it's just always been that way sort of things" and not actually a regulation at all.


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## coachn (Jan 9, 2019)

re: Why do we hold stated meetings on the MM degree only?

You can thank ...

1) fear brought about by the Morgan affair,

2) the meeting in Baltimore

and, least we forget,

3) the innovation to the Craft when they split the original EA degree in two and added the third that changed full membership from the EA level to the MM level.​


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## Winter (Jan 9, 2019)

Coach beat me to it.  It was a knee-jerk reaction to the Morgan affair.  Thankfully, many jurisdictions are coming around to rethinking how we do our meetings.  My own EC Lodge conducts all business in the EA degree and only opens in the higher degrees to conduct the business of that degree.  It means we don't have to rush a new Brother through the degrees because they are allowed to be full participating members after their initiation.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 9, 2019)

I know some, if not all, appendant bodies will hold meetings on the 'lowest' degree or grade. It allows more involvement and you'd think BL would do the same.


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## Elexir (Jan 9, 2019)

coachn said:


> 3) the innovation to the Craft when they split the original EA degree in two and added the third that changed full membership from the EA level to the MM level.​



Considering that most of the world has EA as full members this is a newer inovation then the 1730s.


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## LK600 (Jan 9, 2019)

CLewey44 said:


> We have four new EAs at my lodge. I am doing a presentation in a few weeks and wanted them to see it but don't expect them to come to the meeting, sit out in the hallway while we vote on paying the water bill and then have them come back in an hour later to see my 10-15 minute presentation.



Can you not have the presentation before lodge opens?  We hold ours first (after dinner but before lodge) so most days the EA's and FC's can attend and then leave.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 9, 2019)

LK600 said:


> Can you not have the presentation before lodge opens?  We hold ours first (after dinner but before lodge) so most days the EA's and FC's can attend and then leave.


I'm hoping if they come the WM will do so. Outside of that, I still wish the meetings were open to all degrees.


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## dfreybur (Jan 9, 2019)

The Morgan affair was in the 1840s. By the time the Anti-Masonic popular movement was forgotten there were a couple of generations of American Masons who had no memory of ever meeting in any degree other than MM other than degrees, proficiency and practices.

Our entire ritual had evolved to show only a few signs that it had ever been otherwise, like the many officers reciting their stated meeting duties at the closing of a first degree.

It may violate the world wide standard but lots of American Masons don't care in the least about world wide standards. The MM only policy violates no landmarks so it's just something Brothers in other countries view as just one more American oddity.

All of my jurisdictions now allow Stated meetings on any degree, but that's only 3 states. If your jurisdiction does not yet allow this, I urge you to work through the line then present legislation on the topic once you have the authority to do so.


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## Keith C (Jan 9, 2019)

Last year our current RWGM made it a requirement for every lodge to hold at least 2 stated meetings in the EA degree.  One of which is the annual District Visitation and the other recommended to be Past Master's Night.  We are also encouraged to hold as many other meeting in the EA as seems appropriate to the makeup of the Lodge.  As we currently have 2 EA Masons our next several meeting will be held in the EA degree and we adapt any programs to conform to that degree.  Only the Stated Meeting for the election of officers is required to be conducted in the MM degree.


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## The Traveling Man (Jan 9, 2019)

CLewey44 said:


> I know some, if not all, appendant bodies will hold meetings on the 'lowest' degree or grade. It allows more involvement and you'd think BL would do the same.


My experience has been different. My Royal Arch Chapter meets on the Royal Arch Degree, My Cryptic Council meets on the Select Master Degree, my Commandery meets on the Order of the Temple, My Scottish Rite Valley meets on the 32°.

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## The Traveling Man (Jan 9, 2019)

My Lodge can meet on any degree. If all present are Master Masons we'll meet on that degree. If there are EAs present we'll meet on that degree. If there are FCs present, and no EAs, we'll meet on that degree. 

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## CLewey44 (Jan 9, 2019)

The Traveling Man said:


> My experience has been different. My Royal Arch Chapter meets on the Royal Arch Degree, My Cryptic Council meets on the Select Master Degree, my Commandery meets on the Order of the Temple, My Scottish Rite Valley meets on the 32°.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app


Oh wow, I didn't know that. I'm not a member of either actually. I've petitioned YR/RAM but haven't taken the Mark Master Degree yet. Does a member receive all Royal Arch degrees at once or over a period of time? The AASR (southern in Oklahoma at least) does all 29 over a weekend, if I'm not mistaken, or as in the northern jurisdiction, they take a few degrees (one always being the 32d degree) and then they are full 32d degree members of the Scottish Rite. In that case, they could open on the 32d since every member is such. Again, not sure about Royal Arch.  I guess me comparing the BL to other appendant bodies is not a fair comparison. I do know the SRICF/SRIA meets on the 1st Grade (Zelator) typically to allow all members to attend Convocations.


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## Tony_Twotones (Jan 9, 2019)

The Traveling Man said:


> My Lodge can meet on any degree. If all present are Master Masons we'll meet on that degree. If there are EAs present we'll meet on that degree. If there are FCs present, and no EAs, we'll meet on that degree.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using My Freemasonry mobile app



Same at my Lodge


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## Glen Cook (Jan 9, 2019)

CLewey44 said:


> Oh wow, I didn't know that. I'm not a member of either actually. I've petitioned YR/RAM but haven't taken the Mark Master Degree yet. Does a member receive all Royal Arch degrees at once or over a period of time?...



It varies with both jurisdiction and chapter. My Utah chapter tends to perform one  at a time. In England, we only have the one HRA ceremony. Much simpler.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 9, 2019)

Since 2007, GLoTX Lodges have had the option to open for business in any Degree, with 2 exceptions. We MUST receive GL officers in a MM Lodge & we MUST open a MM Lodge for the installation of officers. If the installation is to be open to non-Masons, we call to refreshment & proceed, calling back to labor before closing.


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## The Traveling Man (Jan 10, 2019)

CLewey44 said:


> Oh wow, I didn't know that. I'm not a member of either actually. I've petitioned YR/RAM but haven't taken the Mark Master Degree yet. Does a member receive all Royal Arch degrees at once or over a period of time? The AASR (southern in Oklahoma at least) does all 29 over a weekend, if I'm not mistaken, or as in the northern jurisdiction, they take a few degrees (one always being the 32d degree) and then they are full 32d degree members of the Scottish Rite. In that case, they could open on the 32d since every member is such. Again, not sure about Royal Arch.  I guess me comparing the BL to other appendant bodies is not a fair comparison. I do know the SRICF/SRIA meets on the 1st Grade (Zelator) typically to allow all members to attend Convocations.


I'm guessing most Chapters would confer each degree separately. I got my Chapter and Council degrees together as part of a Festival. I waited 8 months and then took my Commandery Orders separately.
As for Scottish Rite, every Valley does things different. I'm in the NMJ and when I joined they didn't confer the 32°. I received my 32° separately on Scottish Rite Day. I'd assume that most, or at least many, Valleys confer the 32° at each Reunion.

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## David612 (Jan 10, 2019)

We only go to higher degrees when doing degrees-
We work in the first and our EAs vote.


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## Scoops (Jan 10, 2019)

David612 said:


> We only go to higher degrees when doing degrees-
> We work in the first and our EAs vote.


Here is the same.

Working in Emulation, I'm not sure there's even an option to open in a higher degree without first opening the lodge in the First Degree. 

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## goomba (Jan 10, 2019)

This was result of the Baltimore Convention.  After the Morgan Affair they suggested business on the 3rd and a few other changes (such as dues cards) for a level of protection for the fraternity.  I for one believe this change has not been good from the fraternity and that we should get rid of it.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 10, 2019)

David612 said:


> We only go to higher degrees when doing degrees-
> We work in the first and our EAs vote.


That makes the most sense to me. I have been to a lodge in TX that was holding a stated meeting on the EA degree. The one EA that was there couldn't vote if I'm not mistaken.


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## dfreybur (Jan 10, 2019)

CLewey44 said:


> That makes the most sense to me. I have been to a lodge in TX that was holding a stated meeting on the EA degree. The one EA that was there couldn't vote if I'm not mistaken.



Brothers not yet MM having no vote is one more old result of the Morgan affair and the anti-Masonic movement. It's a crazy requirement and it violates the world wide standard but as I already mentioned few Americans care about that. I figure get everyone int he US used to having Stated meetings in any degree, then propose restoring the world wide standard of charging dues and giving vote to all Brothers of the lodge.


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## Keith C (Jan 10, 2019)

CLewey44 said:


> That makes the most sense to me. I have been to a lodge in TX that was holding a stated meeting on the EA degree. The one EA that was there couldn't vote if I'm not mistaken.



Indeed EAs can't vote here either, nor do they pay dues.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 10, 2019)

dfreybur said:


> Brothers not yet MM having no vote is one more old result of the Morgan affair and the anti-Masonic movement. It's a crazy requirement and it violates the world wide standard but as I already mentioned few Americans care about that. I figure get everyone int he US used to having Stated meetings in any degree, then propose restoring the world wide standard of charging dues and giving vote to all Brothers of the lodge.



That sounds like a good idea to me. 

Most American Masons are like the military reserve or guard (I'm reserve now and American so I can say this lol) of Masonry and most of the rest of the world is like active duty Masonry. We hold the same ranks in reserve but probably perform about two ranks lower than our rank would indicate. (MMs that have zero clue what is going on) Whereas the active duty will have E-4s performing two ranks above their paygrades. (EAs that walk the walk and talk the talk with their noses in books) We figure this out when we go on orders (visit foreign lodges) and quickly get a reality check. Reserve will have 8 year E-7s and active duty will have 8 year E-4s. 

This doesn't apply to all reservists(American Masons) as some are highly versed due to their involvement in their duties and also, there are some piss poor active duty(rest of the world) members as well. But our one day conferrals, or even three month progression to the "most sublime degree" come off negatively to our foreign Brethren I would imagine.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 10, 2019)

dfreybur said:


> It may violate the world wide standard but lots of American Masons don't care in the least about world wide standards. The MM only policy violates no landmarks so it's just something Brothers in other countries view as just one more American oddity.


Agreed. The Grand Lodge of Kentucky Constitution allows for opening the lodge on the Master Mason degree only. I am in the minority on this subject here as I agree with this. As a candidate can achieve MM status in less than three months in my jurisdiction I don't see a problem with opening on the MM degree only. JMHO.


The Traveling Man said:


> My Royal Arch Chapter meets on the Royal Arch Degree, My Cryptic Council meets on the Select Master Degree, my Commandery meets on the Order of the Temple, My Scottish Rite Valley meets on the 32°.


Same here.


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## Winter (Jan 10, 2019)

Warrior1256 said:


> Agreed. The Grand Lodge of Kentucky Constitution allows for opening the lodge on the Master Mason degree only. I am in the minority on this subject here as I agree with this. As a candidate can achieve MM status in less than three months in my jurisdiction I don't see a problem with opening on the MM degree only. JMHO.
> 
> Same here.



The problem isn't the degree you open on. The problem is a candidate getting his MM degree in less than 3 months. There is no way a person can memorize and internalize the teachings of the three degrees in less than 90 days.  And the reason we rush people through all 3 degrees here in the states is because we changed the degree we must do business on from the EA to MM after the Morgan Affair and want to make them full participating members as fast as possible. The solution created the problem we are now dealing with as we make members, not Masons. 

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## JanneProeliator (Jan 10, 2019)

In Finland we open in third and go to second or first just for the degrees. It took me a year to get from EA to MM and I wasn't unhappy with not being able to get to go to the meetings. I was invited to see other EA or FC degrees (according to my degree offcourse) and we had festive board everytime after the meeting so I was able to attend and socialise with my brothers. I was welcommed also to other lodges of my city to visit the degrees in their lodges. Unfortunatelly I wasn't able to do that. (I have yet to visit other lodges here but I will)

I felt that the time before was like prospect time for me to get to be the full member of the brotherhood. I was a mason but didn't have my full wings yet so to speak. After I got my MM and become full member of the lodge and the brotherhood it felt special.


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## David612 (Jan 10, 2019)

There is a significant disconnect between wanting a Man to be initiated, passed and raised in the craft through learning the work well, internalising the values and generally becoming what we want to see from candidates and new masons and opening on the master mason degree and not allowing EA and FC to vote-
Just my 2c but it dosnt really come across as being on the level-

If you can rush a candidate through then that’s great but I don’t belive this what’s best for the candidate, the lodge or the craft.


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## coachn (Jan 10, 2019)

Winter said:


> The problem isn't the degree you open on. The problem is a candidate getting his MM degree in less than 3 months. There is no way a person can memorize and internalize the teachings of the three degrees in less than 90 days.  And the reason we rush people through all 3 degrees here in the states is because we changed the degree we must do business on from the EA to MM after the Morgan Affair and want to make them full participating members as fast as possible. The solution created the problem we are now dealing with as we make members, not Masons.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


The problem is candidates are not getting Masonic training which requires deep understanding; they're getting theatrical training which requires no understanding whatsoever!

We rush them through not so they can sit in on boring meetings at the MM level. They're rushed through so that they can 1) replace the people who don't want to sit in on the boring meetings, 2) be replacements for those abandoning ship and 3) do all this before they realize the ship they boarded.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 10, 2019)

Winter said:


> And the reason we rush people through all 3 degrees here in the states is because we changed the degree we must do business on from the EA to MM after the Morgan Affair and want to make them full participating members as fast as possible. The solution created the problem we are now dealing with as we make members, not Masons.





coachn said:


> They're rushed through so that they can 1) replace the people who don't want to sit in on the boring meetings, 2) be replacements for those abandoning ship and 3) do all this before they realize the ship they boarded.


Both good points.


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## coachn (Jan 10, 2019)

Warrior1256 said:


> Both good points.


Points that it pains me to point out.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 10, 2019)

Warrior1256 said:


> Agreed. The Grand Lodge of Kentucky Constitution allows for opening the lodge on the Master Mason degree only. I am in the minority on this subject here as I agree with this.


That's how it was in Texas back when I went through the Degrees & I didn't have a problem with it. I understood that I had much to learn before I could sit in a Master's Lodge, understand what was going on, & cast a vote (somewhat) intelligently. I thought of it as "paying my dues" & earning the status of MM. The change to doing business in EA & FC Lodges was promoted as a way of increasing retention. From what I've seen, it hasn't worked.


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## Winter (Jan 10, 2019)

Bill Lins said:


> That's how it was in Texas back when I went through the Degrees & I didn't have a problem with it. I understood that I had much to learn before I could sit in a Master's Lodge, understand what was going on, & cast a vote (somewhat) intelligently. I thought of it as "paying my dues" & earning the status of MM. The change to doing business in EA & FC Lodges was promoted as a way of increasing retention. From what I've seen, it hasn't worked.



Did they do anything besides just conduct the same business on a lower degree?  If not, I can see why it had no effect.  Conducting business on the EA degree isn't the goal. Conducting business on the EA degree because new initiates spend longer as EA's and FC's as they go through an intensive period of study and growth before being found ready for the next degree because they should absolutely have a stake in the Lodge they are being initiated in is.  If a Lodge has the same mind-numbingly tedious business meetings like so many others today and the only change is to just open it to EA's and FC's, well I can very well see why it hasn't worked.  Since you didn't say if anything else changed I am just making assumptions to continue the discussion.


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## coachn (Jan 11, 2019)

Winter said:


> Did they do anything besides just conduct the same business on a lower degree?  If not, I can see why it had no effect.  Conducting business on the EA degree isn't the goal. Conducting business on the EA degree because new initiates spend longer as EA's and FC's as they go through an intensive period of study and growth before being found ready for the next degree because they should absolutely have a stake in the Lodge they are being initiated in is.  *If a Lodge has the same mind-numbingly tedious business meetings like so many others today and the only change is to just open it to EA's and FC's, well I can very well see why it hasn't worked.*  Since you didn't say if anything else changed I am just making assumptions to continue the discussion.


^^^THIS!!!!^^^


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 11, 2019)

Bill Lins said:


> I understood that I had much to learn before I could sit in a Master's Lodge, understand what was going on, & cast a vote (somewhat) intelligently.


This is exactly the way that I look at it.


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## Winter (Jan 11, 2019)

Warrior1256 said:


> This is exactly the way that I look at it.



I just do not see the benefit of rushing a new Brother through the degrees so they have the title of Master Mason and then hoping that they will eventually catch up and learn the teachings of all three degrees later.  A more likely scenario is that they are the new blood in the Lodge and as soon as they are a full member, having gone through the forms, they immediately are pulled into the Lodge's officers line, or other committees, or even the Appendant Bodies.  And that catch up never happens. 

When I became a Mason over 20 years ago I went in pretty blind.  There were not a ton of Masonic resources on the internet back then and my local library and bookstore mostly had books on Masonic conspiracies.  My Lodge brought me in during a Man-to-Mason event where I watched an exemplar go through each degree and only participated when it came time to place my hands on the VSL to take my Ob.  I didn't know that wasn't how it was supposed to be done until after I was a supposed Master Mason.  I will always argue against anything that takes away that initiatic experience from our candidates.  And rushing them through the degrees in the shortest time possible so they can attend a business meeting is as bad as conferring all three degrees in the same day.  If we want to see real positive change in the Craft, then we must go back to the basics and build a true initiatic experience.  Otherwise we will be having the same discussions in another twenty years.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 11, 2019)

Winter said:


> ....Otherwise we will be having the same discussions in another twenty years.


 
If we're lucky...


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## LK600 (Jan 11, 2019)

JanneProeliator said:


> It took me a year to get from EA to MM and I wasn't unhappy with not being able to get to go to the meetings. I was invited to see other EA or FC degrees (according to my degree offcourse) and we had festive board everytime after the meeting so I was able to attend and socialise with my brothers.



Very similar to my experience going through.  While I memorized each within a couple weeks, there was a wait in between each degree which allowed me to fill my time with a deeper dive into each area and more.  I'm not sure though, unless specifically guided, all new Brothers would consider taking a deeper dive on their own (or even aware they are allowed).



coachn said:


> The problem is candidates are not getting Masonic training which requires deep understanding; they're getting theatrical training which requires no understanding whatsoever!



And I wonder.... how many generations at this point have operated in this fashion?  Possibly specific things are not changing because longer term Brothers do not know how?


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 11, 2019)

Winter said:


> I just do not see the benefit of rushing a new Brother through the degrees so they have the title of Master Mason and then hoping that they will eventually catch up and learn the teachings of all three degrees later. A more likely scenario is that they are the new blood in the Lodge and as soon as they are a full member, having gone through the forms, they immediately are pulled into the Lodge's officers line, or other committees, or even the Appendant Bodies. And that catch up never happens.


I agree! I think that at least 6 months should go by between degrees with Masonic education before EA and between the degrees.


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## KentuckyMason (Jan 11, 2019)

I would like to see Blue Lodges embrace the idea of doing business on the EA for at least 1 meeting per month.  Or maybe every other month.  Too often an EA goes through his initiation and due to school, life, work, etc.  may have a long period of time between their EA, learning their proficiency and moving to FC.  During this time they could lose interest.  Inviting EAs and FCs to stated meetings held on the EA degree regularly could do well to keep them warm.


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## Winter (Jan 11, 2019)

KentuckyMason said:


> I would like to see Blue Lodges embrace the idea of doing business on the EA for at least 1 meeting per month.  Or maybe every other month.  Too often an EA goes through his initiation and due to school, life, work, etc.  may have a long period of time between their EA, learning their proficiency and moving to FC.  During this time they could lose interest.  Inviting EAs and FCs to stated meetings held on the EA degree regularly could do well to keep them warm.


Or, if you meet like my EC Lodge does, every meeting is on the EA degree and all business is conducted that way so all EAs are full participating members. We only open on a higher degree to confer that degree. 

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## dfreybur (Jan 11, 2019)

Keith C said:


> Indeed EAs can't vote here either, nor do they pay dues.



Because there are so few contested votes this rarely comes up for hand votes just for ballots. If an EA or FC renders a hand vote and the vote comes out unanimous, as it often does, no one cares.


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## coachn (Jan 11, 2019)

KentuckyMason said:


> I would like to see Blue Lodges embrace the idea of doing business on the EA for at least 1 meeting per month.  Or maybe every other month.  ...


And I'd like to see Blue Lodges actually providing Masonic Education that makes good men better rather than Freemasonic Training that makes compliant members.  

But I ain't gonna hold my breath waiting for it to occur.


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## Keith C (Jan 11, 2019)

dfreybur said:


> Because there are so few contested votes this rarely comes up for hand votes just for ballots. If an EA or FC renders a hand vote and the vote comes out unanimous, as it often does, no one cares.



Indeed. We almost never actually ballot on candidates and can vote on petitions when opened in the EA degree. We always have a mentor sitting with the EAs or FCs to make sure they know they can't vote.  Elections and Installation of Officers must be done in the MM Degree, with the exception of the option to do an open installation.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 11, 2019)

Winter said:


> Did they do anything besides just conduct the same business on a lower degree?  If not, I can see why it had no effect.  Conducting business on the EA degree isn't the goal. Conducting business on the EA degree because new initiates spend longer as EA's and FC's as they go through an intensive period of study and growth before being found ready for the next degree because they should absolutely have a stake in the Lodge they are being initiated in is.  If a Lodge has the same mind-numbingly tedious business meetings like so many others today and the only change is to just open it to EA's and FC's, well I can very well see why it hasn't worked.  Since you didn't say if anything else changed I am just making assumptions to continue the discussion.


That's exactly how it was. After I became a MM & sat through a few stated meetings, I understood why my instructor would sit outside with me & go over my work- he didn't want to be bored either!


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Jan 12, 2019)

Bill Lins said:


> That's how it was in Texas back when I went through the Degrees & I didn't have a problem with it. I understood that I had much to learn before I could sit in a Master's Lodge, understand what was going on, & cast a vote (somewhat) intelligently. I thought of it as "paying my dues" & earning the status of MM. The change to doing business in EA & FC Lodges was promoted as a way of increasing retention. From what I've seen, it hasn't worked.



This was much my opinion as well. So much so, I conducted all the stated meetings my year in the East within the Masters Degree.

I also agree that the change has not done much in the way of increasing retention.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Jan 12, 2019)

Bill Lins said:


> That's exactly how it was. After I became a MM & sat through a few stated meetings, I understood why my instructor would sit outside with me & go over my work- he didn't want to be bored either!



Exactly. Quality one on one study time with a mentor.

Plus the social portion of the meal and conversation before the start of the meeting.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 12, 2019)

Bro. Stewart P.M. said:


> Plus the social portion of the meal and conversation before the start of the meeting.


Exactly. This is a big part of the experience.


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## Brother JC (Jan 13, 2019)

My Mother GL changed to “Master’s choice” quite a while back. Depending on presentations, discussions, and visitors a lodge may open in any of the three.
My other two jurisdictions open on the First.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Jan 16, 2019)

Brother JC said:


> My Mother GL changed to “Master’s choice” quite a while back. Depending on presentations, discussions, and visitors a lodge may open in any of the three.
> My other two jurisdictions open on the First.



That is much the same in Texas, being the Master’s choice and depending upon the work, degree, or visitors.


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## Mark Stockdale (Feb 22, 2019)

I think I like the Scottish way, where all business is conducted in the EA, we only progress from there if the degree work that night warrants it. I think it helps that we have 2 meetings a month as a lodge, but we then have the general committee meeting once a month, which is where most of the actual business is decided, and only brought to Open Lodge to get passed by the Brethren when the minutes are read.


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## Bloke (Feb 23, 2019)

Mark Stockdale said:


> I think I like the Scottish way, where all business is conducted in the EA, we only progress from there if the degree work that night warrants it. I think it helps that we have 2 meetings a month as a lodge, but we then have the general committee meeting once a month, which is where most of the actual business is decided, and only brought to Open Lodge to get passed by the Brethren when the minutes are read.


Dear Bro - I like the "Scottish way" too of opening a Lodge on the First Degree except that its not really the "Scottish way" - it is what most of the Masonic World does.. opening in the Third Degree and conducting business that degree seems to be an Nth American thing in origin -  you will hear a Traditional History on it about an alleged murder, and a wonderful political movement or more rightly, a Convention in Baltimore.. I can't quite remember which came first (but it was sealed at the Convention I think). There is bound to be comment on these earlier in this thread

Of course in PA - they probably open on the 2.4569825 degree because that's how Pennsylvania rolls - it is the wacky place where they love to be different 

One thing I do know is


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## CLewey44 (Feb 23, 2019)

Bloke said:


> Of course in PA - they probably open on the 2.4569825 degree because that's how Pennsylvania rolls - it is the wacky place where they love to be different
> 
> One thing I do know is




Bwhahahhaha!


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## Brother JC (Feb 23, 2019)

Bloke said:


> Of course in PA - they probably open on the 2.4569825 degree because that's how Pennsylvania rolls - it is the wacky place where they love to be different



You haven’t lived a complete Masonic life until you’ve seen the Wardens present their columns (probably not the proper terminology, but I was just a tourist in cowboy boots).


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 23, 2019)

Bloke said:


> Of course in PA - they probably open on the 2.4569825 degree because that's how Pennsylvania rolls - it is the wacky place where they love to be different





Brother JC said:


> You haven’t lived a complete Masonic life until you’ve seen the Wardens present their columns (probably not the proper terminology, but I was just a tourist in cowboy boots).


***snicker snicker***


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## Mark Stockdale (Feb 23, 2019)

Bloke said:


> Dear Bro - I like the "Scottish way" too of opening a Lodge on the First Degree except that its not really the "Scottish way" - it is what most of the Masonic World does.. opening in the Third Degree and conducting business that degree seems to be an Nth American thing in origin -  you will hear a Traditional History on it about an alleged murder, and a wonderful political movement or more rightly, a Convention in Baltimore.. I can't quite remember which came first (but it was sealed at the Convention I think). There is bound to be comment on these earlier in this thread
> 
> Of course in PA - they probably open on the 2.4569825 degree because that's how Pennsylvania rolls - it is the wacky place where they love to be different
> 
> One thing I do know is



I didn't know that, I know of only 1 lodge in Scotland that always opens on the 3rd Degree for every meeting, it was explained to me that it was an Americanism.


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## Keith C (Feb 25, 2019)

Brother JC said:


> You haven’t lived a complete Masonic life until you’ve seen the Wardens present their columns (probably not the proper terminology, but I was just a tourist in cowboy boots).



It is odd, but I have never been given an official name for it.  In our Lodge we call it "The Dance!"  You may not have noticed it, depending on where you sat, but there are foot steps as well as movement of the columns and hands.


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## Brother JC (Feb 25, 2019)

I was in front of Bro Junior so had no idea what was going on behind me! I think the lodge got a chuckle from my reaction.


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## Canadian Paul (Feb 25, 2019)

Winter said:


> Coach beat me to it.  It was a knee-jerk reaction to the Morgan affair.  Thankfully, many jurisdictions are coming around to rethinking how we do our meetings.  My own EC Lodge conducts all business in the EA degree and only opens in the higher degrees to conduct the business of that degree.  It means we don't have to rush a new Brother through the degrees because they are allowed to be full participating members after their initiation.


As does my Mother Lodge under the GL of Scotland and all lodges under the Grand Lodge of Newfounflandand Labrador.  Our EAs and FCs can sit in Lodge and ovserve its workings  right from the start. For that reason, when working an Initiation we defer all other business until after the ceremony so that the new EAs can observe the lodge's workings and the closing ritual that meeting.


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## CLewey44 (Feb 25, 2019)

What if we met in the _middle_ and held stated meetings on the 2nd degree. That would keep anyone out that just got initiated just to do it and then never showed up again. FCs are proven and have quite a bit of info given to them.


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## Brother_Steve (Mar 1, 2019)

> Why do some jurisdictions do business on the MM degree?


I have to be a full member to vote. However, we recently started being able to open on and conduct business on any degree we so choose.

The only issue is making sure the EA and FC masons do not vote. We assign a PM or a mentor to sit with them on the north side of the Lodge.


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## Bloke (Mar 1, 2019)

Brother_Steve said:


> I have to be a full member to vote. However, we recently started being able to open on and conduct business on any degree we so choose.
> 
> The only issue is making sure the EA and FC masons do not vote. We assign a PM or a mentor to sit with them on the north side of the Lodge.


Here, EAs and above have long had the right to vote in their Lodge. What is radical, is a few years ago, we also gave them the right to vote at proceedings of GL.


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## jrnteach (Mar 2, 2019)

In my lodge and I believe in most CA lodges we open stated meetings on the EA degree. We do however open installation of officers as MM beforehand and then close the MM lodge after the installation. 

EA and FC don’t vote though.


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## Brother JC (Mar 2, 2019)

All CA (assuming you mean California) lodges open in the First; it’s the law.


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## acjohnson53 (Mar 10, 2019)

normally because the house is full of Master Masons...


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 11, 2019)

acjohnson53 said:


> normally because the house is full of Master Masons...


Sounds good to me!


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## Brother JC (Mar 11, 2019)

acjohnson53 said:


> normally because the house is full of Master Masons...



Actually, it’s set by each grand lodge. Even if my lodge was filled with nothing but MMs we would still be required to open in the First.


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## acjohnson53 (Mar 11, 2019)

and work your way up....


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## Winter (Mar 11, 2019)

acjohnson53 said:


> and work your way up....


As in open on the first and work up to the 3rd?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Mark Stockdale (Mar 11, 2019)

Brother JC said:


> Actually, it’s set by each grand lodge. Even if my lodge was filled with nothing but MMs we would still be required to open in the First.


It's what we do in Scotland, open on the 1st and work up depending on what we are doing that evening.

Sent from my 6055P using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Scoops (Mar 12, 2019)

acjohnson53 said:


> and work your way up....


Only if there's work to be done in the higher degrees, otherwise we'll stay in the first for the entire meeting. 

Sent from my EML-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 12, 2019)

Brother JC said:


> Actually, it’s set by each grand lodge. Even if my lodge was filled with nothing but MMs we would still be required to open in the First.


Here in Kentucky we are required to open on the MM degree. However, each year at the Grand Lodge Session opening on a lesser degree is brought up for a vote. At first the vote was overwhelmingly in favor of staying the course on opening on MM only. However, each year the vote is getting narrower and narrower.


acjohnson53 said:


> and work your way up....


In our case we work our way down.


Scoops said:


> Only if there's work to be done in the higher degrees,


In our case only if there is work to be done on a lesser degree.


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## Brother JC (Mar 12, 2019)

acjohnson53 said:


> and work your way up....



As Scoops said, only if there is Work in the Third. Stated meetings are held in the First Degree here. Since my lodge does not do degrees during stated meetings there is almost never a reason to move up.


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## Ian Ameline (Mar 17, 2019)

In Ontario (Canada) we open in the first and go up as needed (for degree work or education requiring a higher degree).


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## acjohnson53 (Mar 23, 2019)

Lodge always open in the first degree, and work our way up....


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## Canadian Paul (Mar 24, 2019)

Like all lodges here, we always Open in the First Degree and will conduct our business etc and then close in that degree.  One pecularity of our ritual is that, if we have Passed or Raised the lodge to confer a degree, instead of Reducing back to the First Degree to close the Lodge, we will close in the last degree we were working in. This can cause some confusion among our visaitorsin giving signs, etc. during the closing!


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## Mark Stockdale (Mar 24, 2019)

Canadian Paul said:


> Like all lodges here, we always Open in the First Degree and will conduct our business etc and then close in that degree.  One pecularity of our ritual is that, if we have Passed or Raised the lodge to confer a degree, instead of Reducing back to the First Degree to close the Lodge, we will close in the last degree we were working in. This can cause some confusion among our visaitorsin giving signs, etc. during the closing!


That's how we do it in Scotland as well.

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## Warrior1256 (Mar 24, 2019)

Canadian Paul said:


> One pecularity of our ritual is that, if we have Passed or Raised the lodge to confer a degree, instead of Reducing back to the First Degree to close the Lodge, we will close in the last degree we were working in.





Mark Stockdale said:


> That's how we do it in Scotland as well.


Interesting!


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## Todd M. Stewart (Aug 17, 2019)

In Nebraska we opened in MM only. Here in Iowa we open in the Degree of the lowest attending Brother.  I found this regarding the Baltimore Convention in a Short Talk Bulletin written by Allen E. Roberts.  

"The Committee considered it an “impropriety” to transact “business in Lodges below the Degree of Master Mason, except as such that appertains to the conferring of the inferior Degrees and the instruction therein.” It credited the Grand Lodge of Missouri for bringing this to the attention of Freemasons everywhere. The Committee went on to say “Entered Apprentices and Fellow Crafts are not members of Lodges, nor are they entitled to the franchises of members.”

http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/artfeb02/convention that changed freemasonry.htm


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## Scoops (Aug 17, 2019)

Todd M. Stewart said:


> "The Committee considered it an “impropriety” to transact “business in Lodges below the Degree of Master Mason, except as such that appertains to the conferring of the inferior Degrees and the instruction therein.” It credited the Grand Lodge of Missouri for bringing this to the attention of Freemasons everywhere. The Committee went on to say “Entered Apprentices and Fellow Crafts are not members of Lodges, nor are they entitled to the franchises of members"



That's not at all the case here under UGLE. EAs and FCs are full, dues paying members of our lodges with all the rights membership confers. Hence we open in the First and transact all masonic business, other than conferring higher degrees and installation, in the First. 


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## Bloke (Aug 18, 2019)

Todd M. Stewart said:


> In Nebraska we opened in MM only. Here in Iowa we open in the Degree of the lowest attending Brother.  I found this regarding the Baltimore Convention in a Short Talk Bulletin written by Allen E. Roberts.
> 
> "The Committee considered it an “impropriety” to transact “business in Lodges below the Degree of Master Mason, except as such that appertains to the conferring of the inferior Degrees and the instruction therein.” It credited the Grand Lodge of Missouri for bringing this to the attention of Freemasons everywhere. The Committee went on to say “Entered Apprentices and Fellow Crafts are not members of Lodges, nor are they entitled to the franchises of members.”
> 
> http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/artfeb02/convention that changed freemasonry.htm


As Bro Scoops says - that is also not the case here in Victoria Australia - All including EAs are voting member of the Lodge.


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## hanzosbm (Aug 19, 2019)

Brother JC said:


> All CA (assuming you mean California) lodges open in the First; it’s the law.


Yes, and I hate it.  I voted against it at last year's communication, but...to no effect.

California has some odd rules that can be troublesome.  While I don't agree with conducting business solely on the 3rd degree, I also don't agree with doing it solely on the 1st degree.  For one thing, unless you frequently do degrees, you get rusty.  Our lodge is very small and we will sometimes go a year or more without putting on a degree.  I wish it was Master's choice.


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## Brother JC (Aug 19, 2019)

I’ve been in this lodge nearly five years and have never opened in anything else.
We’re a very small lodge.


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## Buckeye (Aug 28, 2019)

When I was raised twenty-five years ago business could only be conducted in lodge opened in the MM degree.  It's since been changed and we can open in whatever degree we want but only MM's can vote.


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