# Religion and the Masonic Lodge



## jonesvilletexas (May 2, 2009)

In your opinion are we correct in keeping religion out of the Masonic lodge?


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## TCShelton (May 2, 2009)

Without a doubt.


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## rhitland (May 2, 2009)

Very much so, I view alot of today's issues rooted in the loss of spirituality even in religion. Masonry is for the deeping of your spiritual self and will as many times before bring great and brillant minds together on the level to take the next step in advancment for society. It is no coincendence democracy was founded in the minds of Masons.


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## JTM (May 6, 2009)

screw it, i'm gonna take the other side.  we need more argu... i mean discussion.

We definitely need to introduce Christianity to our lodges.

(in good fun, I'm taking the unpopular side of the issue).


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## LRG (May 6, 2009)

Just as long as our GL I M stays


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## Wingnut (May 8, 2009)

Im not so sure we DO keep it out...


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## TCShelton (May 9, 2009)

Wingnut said:


> Im not so sure we DO keep it out...



You are absolutely right in most cases.  That is something I've seen in my visits.


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## owls84 (May 11, 2009)

+1, I believe Brother Jones (forgive me if I am wrong) did a thread on this topic. I can't count how many times I have sit in Lodge and the Chaplin or person giving the prayer gave it in Jesus's name. In my opinion the moment that is said it becomes a Christian Prayer. Now don't get me wrong I do not take offense to this personally but I just wonder what if there were a Brother that was Islamic or Jewish. I just think we need to think about some of these little things, I want everyone to feel welcome in my lodge. Sad thing is I know that not everyone would feel welcome, or does for that matter.


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## jonesvilletexas (May 11, 2009)

Brother Josh, you are correct, in the lodge room we should refrain from using the words in Jesus name for that reason. I being a Chaplain and a Christian have a hard time not using it, but I do respect the feelings of others.


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## LRG (May 12, 2009)

I love to hear his name


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## Kenneth Hart (Jun 8, 2009)

Having visited several Lodges in and around Mobile I have heard "in Jesus name we pray" at most every Lodge prayer. Just an observation. I for one believe that my God had several sons.   And Jesus had a last supper not a last dinner, hence the meal I eat at end of day is *supper* and the one mid-day is *dinner*.


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## RedTemplar (Jul 28, 2009)

Introducing religion in our lodges is simply not Freemasonry.


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## JTM (Jul 28, 2009)

without religion, masonry would die.  you are required to have faith when you join, without a good encouragement to continue it would be a false pretense.

(continuing my devil's advocate attitude, of course)


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## Wingnut (Jul 28, 2009)

I respectfuly disagree... I would agree if you changed that sentence to "without *SPRITUALITY*, masonry would die. you are required to have faith when you join, without a good encouragement to continue it would be a false pretense.


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## TCShelton (Jul 28, 2009)

Wingnut said:


> I would agree if you changed that sentence to "without *SPRITUALITY*, masonry would die.



+1.


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## Sirius (Jul 28, 2009)

Freemasonry has nothing to do with religion, and more to do with spirituality as Wig nut said. In fact Freemasonry is about to shedding of superstition and dogma that binds the minds of men. And as far as being Juedeo Christian, yes many of the allegories come from the bible. However, these truths are not confined to the bible. Freemasonry simply uses a common tale and language to express truth.


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## JTM (Jul 29, 2009)

It is very convenient to use stories from a religious text and then insist that the religion behind them are no longer the same. 

If I wanted to teach someone religion, and they were obstinate, the first thing I'd do is tell them that I'm not teaching them religion...


((Keep in mind, guys, that since everyone was on the obvious side of this argument, I took the other.))


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## Wingnut (Jul 29, 2009)

but are they when the same stories are told in every major religion?  Im still fascinated that instead of KST at one time it was The Tower of Babyl!


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## js4253 (Jul 29, 2009)

We should not discuss religion or politics in Lodge in order to keep Peace and Harmony.  People tend to get very passionate about both topics.  We should pursue both on our own time.  Or, here on this Forum.


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## scottmh59 (Jul 31, 2009)

js4253 said:


> We should not discuss religion or politics in Lodge in order to keep Peace and Harmony.  People tend to get very passionate about both topics.  We should pursue both on our own time.  Or, here on this Forum.



i agree.


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Sep 2, 2010)

I think it is important to note that what we keep from lodge is sectarian religion and partisan politics.  Items of a religious nature or religions themselves as a discussion of understanding, history, or toleration should be a part of lodge, less we not even discuss the origins of our own legends.


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## HKTidwell (Sep 2, 2010)

I'm the no vote.   

The basis of Masonry is based in religion.  Some will refer to it as spirituality others as religion but it has the same basis.  Now I do not think we should discuss a type of religion.  It is the specific religion that is considered divisive and not "religion" itself.


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## tom268 (Sep 3, 2010)

The problem I see here is the question itself. What exactly does religion mean? What politics? And to complete it, what does discussion means in this context?

When we talk about charity projects, our opinions are based on our political thinking and colored by our religious point of view. I don't think that this is meant with this old tradition. We don't put one religious or political belief-system over the others, we don't judge them and we don't missionate (neither religious nor political) in lodge. I think, that is meant with it.


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## 6229 MAC (Oct 11, 2010)

jonesvilletexas said:


> In your opinion are we correct in keeping religion out of the Masonic lodge?


  "The liberal sentiment towards each other which marks every political and religious denomination of men in this country Toleration of differing religious traditions was something George Washington idealistically viewed, and heartily approved of, as a unique and basic quality of American life. He believed religious toleration was a natural right of all men, a right the new country would protect.* Toleration for other practices and beliefs* was such an integral part of his own value system and was a cornerstone of his aspirations for the country as a whole; thus he simply could not understand the issue of religious prejudice and would not allow the outward expression of such prejudice.
[FONT=&quot] 
"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these States of worshiping Almighty God agreeable to their consciences is not only among the choicest of their *blessings* but also of their *rights*." WB Geo. Washington Sept. 28, 1789[/FONT]


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## MacFie (Oct 12, 2010)

> Items of a religious nature or religions themselves as a discussion of understanding, history, or toleration should be a part of lodge, less we not even discuss the origins of our own legends.



Just wait until you're a MM and can't be black balled.


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## Ben Rodriguez (Oct 12, 2010)

Religion and politics have separated men since both appeared. I still agree with no religion talk in lodge.


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## Jamesb (Oct 12, 2010)

Go to Church to be religous, Go to lodge for Fellowship, go home for love.


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## MacFie (Oct 12, 2010)

> go home for love.


 My computers love me this I know....lol


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## Wingnut (Oct 16, 2010)

Jamesb said:


> Go to Church to be religous, Go to lodge for Fellowship, go home for love.


 
go to the Shrine for a beer...


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## Blake Bowden (Oct 16, 2010)

Wingnut said:
			
		

> go to the Shrine for a beer...



Woot!


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## peace out (Oct 18, 2010)

I approach freemasonry in a very spiritual way, and in that way, I find freemasonry integral in my spiritual quest.  It's not a religious path, but a cornerstone of the entirety of my spiritual building.  

I just don't want anyone telling me how I should approach the SAoftU.  As much as someone may believe something, and hold to it as true, religion is still personal, and should be left as such.


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## Traveling Man (Nov 13, 2010)

From a lost thread...



			
				Hippie said:
			
		

> I figure if a man doesn't want to abide by the ancient teachings of Freemasonry that have been passed down through the generations, that is fine... Join the Lions or Rotary clubs.... They don't require or teach any of this. But, they don't have anything like the Shriners, York or Scottish Rite either. I believe in God, practice the Christian faith, and am REAL happy with it. Now, if someone else wants to practice something else, go ahead, but DON"T infringe upon my Right, the one I and MANY others fought and or died for.



I don’t think anyone here has even suggested infringing upon your rights.

Masonry believes that each individual should apply his religious convictions as they should be applied and only for the purpose to govern discipline and sanctify his inner-self in life, and not to be projected into social life, because religion has no place at social gatherings or any other place where it makes other people uncomfortable. 

Masonry believes that all religious road's eventually lead to the same destination, to one God, just as all rivers eventually flow towards the sea. 

If one reviews Andersons Constitutions there is (and was) no requirement for a man to practice the Christian faith as a prerequisite for masonry.

Andersons Constitutions:

I. Concerning GOD and RELIGION. 

A Mason is oblig'd by his Tenure, to obey the moral Law; and if he rightly understands the Art, he will never be a stupid Atheist nor an irreligious Libertine. But though in ancient Times Masons were charg'd in every Country to be of the Religion of that Country or Nation, whatever it was, yet 'tis now thought more expedient only to oblige them to that Religion in which all Men agree, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves; that is, to be good Men and true, or Men of Honour and Honesty, by whatever Denominations or Persuasions they may be distinguish'd; whereby Masonry becomes the Center of Union, and the Means of conciliating true Friendship among Persons that must have remain'd at a perpetual Distance.

But the original aim of a "Center of Union, and the means of conciliating true friendship among persons that must have remain'd at a perpetual Distance" has fallen in a crack in the floor, forever, if we don't retrieve it. More than ever before 'tis now thought more expedient only to oblige them to that Religion in which all Men agree, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves; that is, to be good Men and true, or Men of Honour and Honesty.


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## RichardRLJ (Nov 13, 2010)

Many people just forget to be sensitive.  In our area, there are few that are not Christian, and we get in the habit of not needing to be sensitive to their feelings.  I sometimes use Jesus name in our local lodge when I know we are all Christians, but I probably shouldn't because I may forget and seem insensitive to other's feelings.  I used to have some really good Masonic friends at the local level who were Jewish, but have since passed away.  Back then, I practiced being sensitive regularly and I probably need to get back to that!


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## coachn (Nov 14, 2010)

JTM said:


> without religion, masonry would die. you are required to have faith when you join, without a good encouragement to continue it would be a false pretense.


Without a doubt, earnest Masonic engagement assists men in better understanding Symbols. Symbols are at the core of religious (and political) communication. Religion though is not Masonry's core. Symbols are.

And Faith need not necessitate one's membership in any Religion whatsoever. Faith is merely a choice to believe in something much better, that requires no concrete evidence for or against that chosen belief.


HKTidwell said:


> ...The basis of Masonry is based in religion. Some will refer to it as spirituality others as religion but it has the same basis. ...


See above in regard to Masonry's basis. 

Spirituality is the personal experience of a territory; Religion is a contrived map of that territory. They are not the same thing.


Ben Rodriguez said:


> Religion and politics have separated men since both appeared. I still agree with no religion talk in lodge.


Men's attitudes and behaviors toward one other's beliefs are what separate them; Religion and Politics are not the cause. Poor and bad civil upbringing and training are the cause. Masonry offers a guided program to correct these incivilities, *should a man choose to listen, learn and apply it.*

Religion and Politics are the Profane expression of Theology and Philosophy. Profanity has no good business and no good purpose in any Lodge. 

Lodges are Workshops designed to cultivate men's ability to comprehend, deal with and utilize Symbols in their lives. To get distracted from this cultivation Work would be counterproductive. Hence the Proscription of those Profane mattars which should remain outside our Temple.

IMO

Bro. Coach N


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## jwhoff (Nov 25, 2010)

> Spirituality is the personal experience of a territory; Religion is a contrived map of that territory. They are not the same thing.




Good way to look at it coachn!  I've often thought of it in terms of economics.  Spirituality is indeed a personal experience.  Religion, more of a franchising experience.  

Unfortunately, it's human nature to concentrate on the things that make us all different.  Not the things that make us the same.  It's the same with our creeds.  

We humans are a confluence of thoughts, ideas, and beliefs.  Surprisingly we think much the same on most issues.  Still we've found ways to separate ourselves, usually for the worst.

What a wonderful world it would be if we were able to disavow ourselves from this all to human trait and, instead, concentrate on those things we most share in common.

We who are masons have a vehicle that will get us there.  

So, yes boys, I too think it's better to stay away from religion in the lodge.  That goes for politics as well.


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## jweium (Dec 2, 2010)

Yes, religion is one of the most discussed debates amongst people. Ever since I was raised a few months ago, I learned that neither religion nor politics should be discussed in the lodge room. I am in no way shape or form trying to argue with anyone whatsoever but I think that Freemasonry has its aspect of coexistence with a lot of initiated Brothers. Coexistence to me is having two different groups of people whether friends or enemies and setting their differences aside so that they can live in peace and harmony.


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## Matthew Thomas King (Dec 4, 2010)

Agreed, there is a reason why we have allegory and symbols for learning


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## rttew (Dec 4, 2010)

i don't want people preaching to me in the lodge room but have no problem with them ending a prayer in the manner they see fit.  if it's all about tolerance and equality, why would anyone be offended with someone declaring their savior at the end of a prayer?  honestly, i pray my own prayer when we pray in lodge.  i do the same in church.  i don't need anyone to pray to God for me.


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## Traveling Man (Dec 5, 2010)

rttew said:


> i don't want people preaching to me in the lodge room but have no problem with them ending a prayer in the manner they see fit.  if it's all about tolerance and equality, why would anyone be offended with someone declaring their savior at the end of a prayer?  honestly, i pray my own prayer when we pray in lodge.  i do the same in church.  i don't need anyone to pray to God for me.



We certainly appreciate the fact that you do not want “people preaching to you” in the lodge room; but ending any prayer in any other manner than we are taught would be “preaching”. We celebrate those things that unite us, not that which may divide us, this is the very reason why we pray in lodge the way we do. I am glad that you pray (silently, I hope) your own prayer. You may not “need” anyone to pray for you, but we are praying for “everyone”, even those that may not believe exactly as you!


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Dec 5, 2010)

rttew said:


> i don't want people preaching to me in the lodge room but have no problem with them ending a prayer in the manner they see fit.  if it's all about tolerance and equality, why would anyone be offended with someone declaring their savior at the end of a prayer?  honestly, i pray my own prayer when we pray in lodge.  i do the same in church.  i don't need anyone to pray to God for me.


 Respectfully, Brother, you may want to rethink your reasons for being a Freemason and/or why we pray the way we do. 

The Lodge is not your church. This is a common mistake, and quite understandable given that they have several of the same characteristics; a VoSL, an altar, prayers, and scriptural passages that are part of our ritual. Nevertheless, it is not a church and indeed, our lessons make it quite plain that it should not be seen as such. If you feel that you can not participate in a prayer in a Masonic setting without verbally altering that prayer, you have misunderstood those lessons. As much as we are encouraged to regularly pursue our own personal devotions, we are just as much inculcated with the principle that in Lodge _we meet on the level. _No social, political, or religious differences are allowed into the Lodge room, lest those differences disrupt the harmony each of us is supposed to be seeking together. Making a communal prayer that is intended to unite the assembled Brethren in a humble appeal to a higher power into a sectarian appeal to a particular deity in that sect's pantheon is, _in the Lodge room, _wrong.


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## jwhoff (Dec 5, 2010)

Well said brother.   

Now, what do you all feel about extending that tenant to the dinning hall?  I'm a little perplexed when I hear hatred and fear in the dining hall from people who bray that it is an offense to talk politics, religion, and creed in the lodge room.  They don't seem to understand that the damage is already done.


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## dhouseholder (Dec 6, 2010)

I think that while it might not be expressly forbidden to discuss those topics in the dinning hall,  it is prudent to not discuss them at all while _at lodge_. Now granted, if it is you and Bro. AB from from your church and you are _the only two people in earshot_, then by all means, go for it. Otherwise, if in mixed company, use your better judgment.


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## jwhoff (Dec 7, 2010)

I totally agree.


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## fairmanjd (Mar 31, 2011)

What if you are two brothers of different sects who enjoy discussing each other's view of God, however different they may be? I was recently enjoying a meal with a Muslim friend of mine and was thoroughly enjoying the conversation tht went along with it. Obviously, we disagree on much; but that doesn't mean it can't be a respectful disagreement that doesn't negatively affect our fellowship.


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## MikeMay (Mar 31, 2011)

It's great that two brothers can discuss topics...some just shouldn't be discussed in the lodge room...someone else could over hear and might not be so peaceful or harmonious...just sayin.


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## tom268 (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't think, that "in lodge" means necessarily, in the lodge building. I think, it means, in the official parts of a lodge meeting. But, I learned several times now, that US brethren have a different perspective, when it comes to their lodge buildings.


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## gnarledrose (Apr 1, 2011)

There's too many preachy BYU Mormons in Utah Freemasonry to ever allow religious discussion in lodge. Guys who just got out of class and ex-Catholic priests don't mix well for some reason.


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## jwhoff (Apr 1, 2011)

tom268 said:


> I don't think, that "in lodge" means necessarily, in the lodge building. I think, it means, in the official parts of a lodge meeting. But, I learned several times now, that US brethren have a different perspective, when it comes to their lodge buildings.


 

Rather brother, I take it to be any place you can offend.  Lodge, lodge meetings, and premises should be free of the profane world's divisions.  Yes, it is a heritage in the United States.  It goes back to our Revolutionary and Civil War periods.

During the Revolutionary War it is written that combatants from both sides actually sat in lodge together before going back to the battlefield.  George Washington's troops returned the charter of a British unit captured in battle.

A Union gunboat commander was buried by a contingent of Union sailors who were assisted by Confederate troops in St. Francisville, Louisiana.  This act of masonic brotherhood has been celebrated every spring on the banks of the Mississippi River to this day.

Here in Texas there it is written about a masonic lodge which nearly ceased to meet while its brethren went off to serve both the Confederacy and the Union during the Civil War.  When the brethren came home they returned to lodge and kept the bitter memories of conflict away.  That lodge is vibrant and strong today solely because of the ability of those fine brethren to overcome the disagreements.

Simply said, masonry (to me) is for the celebration of our commonalities and not our differences.


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## Bro. Bennett (Apr 4, 2011)

owls84 said:


> +1, I believe Brother Jones (forgive me if I am wrong) did a thread on this topic. I can't count how many times I have sit in Lodge and the Chaplin or person giving the prayer gave it in Jesus's name. In my opinion the moment that is said it becomes a Christian Prayer. Now don't get me wrong I do not take offense to this personally but I just wonder what if there were a Brother that was Islamic or Jewish. I just think we need to think about some of these little things, I want everyone to feel welcome in my lodge. Sad thing is I know that not everyone would feel welcome, or does for that matter.


 
OK, let me weigh in on this one. I have in the past had friends of other faiths, they respected my faith as I respected their faith. We held a discussion several times per month, and the starting and ending of such was done with prayer, whether it was me or another one of the group, and we always used our Closing during Our prayer, be it Christian, Muslim, Buddist, etc. And ya know what, no one got offended or stopped coming...


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## Beathard (Apr 5, 2011)

Amen, So Mote it Be, So May it Ever Be out of the Lodge...!


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Apr 6, 2011)

The Chaplain is praying on behalf of all members of the Lodge. Inserting the specific name of one of his chosen deities is disrespectful of those of other faiths. Yes, it is usually unintentional - old habits die hard, but that does not make it OK. Finding that which we share in common and most importantly, not trying to advance our own religion is a fundamental tenet of Masonry. Chaplains, no matter what their faith, should, more than most of us, be keenly aware of this.


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## Beathard (Apr 7, 2011)

We have the same problem in boy scouts.  Everyone falls into a autodrive state when finishing their prayer.  The subconcious autodrive is where most of the specific names from specific religions creeps into the lodge.  I am sure that in most cases it is not out of disrespect.  We need to talk to those that do it so that they can conciously supress the autodrive...


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## Jacob Johnson (Apr 11, 2011)

I agree, most times it's probably not even conscious. BUT that does say something about prayer... We probably shouldn't really EVER pray on autopilot, right?


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## Beathard (Apr 11, 2011)

You are correct.  Prayer should never be on autopilot.  Kind of says something about the people, doesn't it.  I believe a person who is truely reverent would be shocked to find out they are praying on autopilot.  The problem is a Masonic Chaplin is not a minister, priest or other religous leader.  He is an officer of an organization made up of men of many faiths.  He has an obligation to represent all of them.  If his faith does not allow him to do that, he should not take the office.


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## Brent Heilman (Apr 11, 2011)

Jacob Johnson said:


> I agree, most times it's probably not even conscious. BUT that does say something about prayer... We probably shouldn't really EVER pray on autopilot, right?


 
So true, but yet sometimes I find myself repeating certain lines or sayings in a prayer without ever thinking about it until after I had already said it. Now when I lead a prayer in Church I make a real effort to think about each and every word so I don't get on autopilot. Each prayer should be from the heart and as such should never be the same. We should always take time to think about what we are saying anything else just wouldn't be from the heart like it is supposed to be.


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## Tony Siciliano (Apr 17, 2011)

I didn't read through all the posts in this thread, so I may be repeating what's already been said.

I think the premise of the question is wrong.  Religion is integral to Freemasonry.  This becomes very apparent once you explore the Scottish and York Rites.  

As for the implied question - I think the fact that we are 'religion agnostic' is what makes our Fraternity special.  All men meet on the level - not as Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc.  Unfortunately, it's tough to actually practice this in the Bible Belt...


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## Benton (Apr 17, 2011)

Tony Siciliano said:


> As for the implied question - I think the fact that we are 'religion agnostic' is what makes our Fraternity special. All men meet on the level - not as Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc. Unfortunately, it's tough to actually practice this in the Bible Belt...



It's terribly tough to practice it in the panhandle, as while there are a few Jewish brothers, and a few deists (who were raised Christian, and still have some fundamental Christian overtones) there simply aren't many men of other religions in the area period, much less are they rushing to petition. 

But that said, I've heard stories of brothers of the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim faiths meeting in on blue lodge peacefully in Israel, and its a dream (perhaps a pipe dream) of mine to sit in and visit one of those meetings.


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## jwhoff (Apr 21, 2011)

Why do so many ignore their vows and try to bring the profane world into the lodge.  There's plenty of time to celebrate their differences in that profane world.  How could they miss the meaning of those vows they take?  But masonry also teaches us patience my young brothers ... let me know if either of you discover there is enough patience out there.  I'm sorely in need!


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## AnthonyBolding (Apr 23, 2011)

I don't think we should talk about religion or politics because those are the two major argument starters in America. A lodge is a place where a liberal and Republican can be friends and a Jewish person and a Christian can pray to whoever their God may be. That's what keeps the lodge ancient and brethren brothers.


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## Mac (Apr 23, 2011)

I agree entirely that religion does not belong in the Lodge Room.

A debate arose when a resolution was proposed that would amend our Law Book to make sure that words specifically allowing brothers to wear religious headgear were added.  To be clear: they are not specifically forbidden to do so, as I understand it (given current law).  I believe the resolution did not pass, go to vote, etc.

I thought the topic was a moot one.  No one wearing a yarmulke is doing so in disrespect of the WM, nor is he wearing it like someone else might wear a baseball cap or cowboy hat.  I was alarmed to discover some brothers were adamantly opposed, with statements like "I don't care what your religion is, in Texas you earn that hat" and "that might work elsewhere, but this is Texas."

Should we forbid religious headgear?  Apparently "this is Texas."


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## Michael Hatley (Apr 23, 2011)

I'd pay a nickel to have a Unitarian Universalist minister filling the Chaplain role in a lodge I'm in one day.  I started attending their services recently, and you want to talk about faith neutral.  Very inclusive.  Roots in Christianity, but around the same tone as what I've seen in the EA work so far.   I'd at least consult a UU minister pretty closely if I ever had to fill the role that is for sure.  It seems to me the goal being that if a Muslim or Hindu walked in the door that they didn't feel like they were on Mars.


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## Traveling Man (Apr 24, 2011)

As we are instructed from our Antient Charges:


Ancient Charges - 1769        

The Complete Text of Anderson's Constitutions
Ancient Charges of a FREEMASON
The Ancient Records of Lodges beyond the Sea

2. BEHAVIOUR after the LODGE is over and the BRETHREN not GONE
You may enjoy yourself with innocent Mirth, treating one another according to Ability, but avoiding all Excess, or forcing any Brother to eat or drink beyond his Inclination, or hindering him from going when his Occasions call him, or doing or saying anything offensive, or that may forbid an easy and free Conversation, for that would blast our Harmony, and defeat our laudable Purposes. Therefore no private Piques or Quarrels must be brought within the Door of the Lodge, far less any Quarrels about Religion, or Nations, or State Policy, we being only, as Masons, of the Universal Religion above mention'd, we are also of all Nations, Tongues, Kindreds, and Languages, and are resolv’d against all Politics, as what never yet conduct'd to the Welfare of the Lodge, nor ever will.


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## JTM (Apr 28, 2011)

In 2009, he created a question.  In 2009, he got his response to the poll he created.  In 2011, I locked this thread.

Start a new one if you'd like to discuss something new.


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