# Theosophical Society



## SeattleMason0613 (Dec 26, 2013)

I'm just looking for everyone opinion on the subject. I heard there was some bad blood between freemasonry and the society but haven't been able to dig up any info. Thoughts?


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## dfreybur (Dec 26, 2013)

I haven't heard of either connection or hard feelings.  The Theosophical Society has centers in Pasadena, CA and Wheaton, IL.  I've lived close to both but never entered either center.  They appear to be separate societies based in each of those locations.  The Weathon one appears to have local chapters in Texas that hold events open to the public so they would be easily studied.

http://www.theosophical.org/ http://theosociety.org/

Just another mystical society by the looks.  The usual article describing why they aren't a religion.  A Yahoo search pointed me to the usual article why they are a cult.  I can imagine individual Masons having issues with them but they appear to make any claims to make Masons so there is no association with Masonry that would put them at loggerheads with our organizations.

The symbol of the Pasadena based order is bizarre.  An Ohm, a Buddhist temple symbol, a Norse/Germanic world worm, a six point star in two different colors, an Egyptian Ankh.  If the symbol is expressive of their teachings the system is quite a Rube Goldberg contraption cobbled together from all over the place, not that that is unique among mystical or religious systems.


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 26, 2013)

The reality seems to be that the foundation of Theosophy involved a lot of individual Masons rather than there being any institutional connection. Of course, if one looks at anything that started in Britain during the middle to late 19th century and involved influential men, one could say that same thing about that, too.


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## SeattleMason0613 (Dec 26, 2013)

I like the idea of the open minded discussion of the various topics it advertises but might be to mystical for me. Thanks for the info...just wanted to make sure there wasn't any feud between it and masonry, before I look further into it.


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## Shahkem (Dec 27, 2013)

SeattleMason0613 said:


> I like the idea of the open minded discussion of the various topics it advertises but might be to mystical for me. Thanks for the info...just wanted to make sure there wasn't any feud between it and masonry, before I look further into it.



I studied Theosophy for years. I absolutely love it! The founder was a woman, so she wasn't a Freemason, however, she definitely studied the esoteric elements of Freemasonry. I'm not sure how a conflict could exist between our Craft and  Theosophy, especially being that it was Theosophy that led me to Freemasonry! Theosophy embodies the principles of our Craft as it related to the Universality of immutable truths expounded in all religions. In a nut shell, Theosophy teaches that, "there is a common thread that runs through all of the major religions". And the aim of the Theosophist is to identify that thread! 


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 28, 2013)

Do be cautious when reading Blavatsky, though. Her modern followers have moved beyond her, but she made a big point of extolling the "Aryan race" as the best iteration of humanity to date, and that perfection would come from them. She considered Africans, Jews, and Chinese to be of one race, both being relics of the "Atlantean race", which had degenerated and was no longer the high point of human existence. The next race of humanity was to be brought about by eugenics within the Aryan race.

This is all from Blavatsky's "The Secret Doctrine" and Powell's "The Solar System". The latter work was published in 1930, so Theosophy did not shed its racialist doctrines until quite recently.


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## BryanMaloney (Dec 28, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> I haven't heard of either connection or hard feelings.  The Theosophical Society has centers in Pasadena, CA and Wheaton, IL.  I've lived close to both but never entered either center.  They appear to be separate societies based in each of those locations.



They are distinct and have been for more than a century. The one in California either schismed or was "more true" in 1875. The one in Illinois is a representative of the headquarters in India, which either "fell away" or "retains the truth". Basically, you could look at the California group as the "Protestant Theosophists" and the Illinois/India group as the "Catholic Theosophists". A Theosophist has written a short (and apparently very fair) essay with a diagram of several of the American Theosophical groups:

http://www.theosophical.org/files/about/FamilyTreeTheosophy.pdf


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## SeattleMason0613 (Dec 28, 2013)

Wow thanks brothers for all this great info...I take great heed in all my research! Especially on matters such as these.


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## cherrynobel (Dec 29, 2013)

Theosophical society  has a link with co-freemasonary.The idea of the society was spread by Anne Beasant who also was a co-freemason and formed it's headquarter in chennai(madras),India.Theosophical society had some prominent freemason like A.O Hume who is also the founder of india oldest  and the current ruling political party the indian national congress and many famous early indian congressman like W.C banerjee(first congress president),C.R Das,motilal Nehru and many more who where both freemason and part of theosophical society.I read somewhere that there was some friction between freemasons and theosophical society butthe article was very vague.In present times the theosophical society is less active but it's daughter organisation the Arya samaj society is quite active in india and some other countries and mostly deals with charity works


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## dfreybur (Dec 30, 2013)

SeattleMason0613 said:


> I like the idea of the open minded discussion of the various topics it advertises but might be to mystical for me.



There are folks who find Masonry too mystical for them.  Some of these folks become Masonry then deny or ignore the mystical content.  The mystical content is there whether you deny or ignore it.  But it is with the mystical as it is with any sort of knowledge - If you ignore it you continue to live your life as before without effect that is visible to you.



Shahkem said:


> In a nut shell, Theosophy teaches that, "there is a common thread that runs through all of the major religions". And the aim of the Theosophist is to identify that thread!



There is a book "God is Not One" that I just downloaded in Kindle format.  In opposition to the Theosophical approach it suggests that each major religion answers a different set of questions and therefore there is no such thread.  I'll need to read the book in the next couple of months but I suspect the two viewpoints are independent of each other.  One is about the Divine which underlies faiths; the other is about the human practices and teachings.



BryanMaloney said:


> Do be cautious when reading Blavatsky, though. Her modern followers have moved beyond her, but she made a big point of extolling the "Aryan race" as the best iteration of humanity to date ...



There are caveats that she refers to the teachings of cultures and philosophies not to the people from the various regions.  It's a dodge that does not ring well with me in this post-WWII world.  Her followers need to have moved well beyond her on this topic.



BryanMaloney said:


> A Theosophist has written a short (and apparently very fair) essay with a diagram of several of the American Theosophical groups:
> 
> http://www.theosophical.org/files/about/FamilyTreeTheosophy.pdf



Five pages so it was a quick read.  Thank you!


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## hanzosbm (Aug 4, 2015)

I was just about to start a thread on the Theosophical Society when I found this one.  Gotta love that search function.

The little I've read so far was very interesting.  In fact, it seems that it extols many of the ideas that I had already reached after a great deal of study and research.  I'm curious about investigating it further, but am unsure of what it's really like.  Between some leaders' support of an Aryan super race to the World Teacher Project and a few other factors over the years, it's easy to see how good ideas can go awry. 
Shahkem, you mentioned that you are a member, can you share some of your experiences?


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## LAMason (Aug 4, 2015)

I have only looked at what I consider to be the basic tenets/beliefs of Theosophy, but I do not see anything at that level that would be incompatible with Freemasonry.

It did bring to mind some questions that I had not thought about in awhile:

1.  What about someone who believes in a Supreme Being, but does not identify in any way with a specific religion and does not have or believe in any VSL?

2.  Do all Grand Lodges require a belief in the "immortality of the Soul and a resurrection thereof to future life"?


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## hanzosbm (Aug 4, 2015)

LAMason said:


> I have only looked at what I consider to be the basic tenets/beliefs of Theosophy, but I do not see anything at that level that would be incompatible with Freemasonry.
> 
> It did bring to mind some questions that I had not thought about in awhile:
> 
> ...


1)  To the best of my knowledge, belief in a VSL is not required.  However, it does leave a bit of a gap.  I suppose it is up to each individual to decide what that VSL is for them, even if it is unwritten.
2)  I had never heard of ANY GL with that requirement.


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## LAMason (Aug 4, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> 1)  To the best of my knowledge, belief in a VSL is not required.  However, it does leave a bit of a gap.  I suppose it is up to each individual to decide what that VSL is for them, even if it is unwritten.
> 2)  I had never heard of ANY GL with that requirement.



We are required to take the Obligations on our VSL, so if someone does not have one what would they do?

While it is not mentioned on the Grand Lodge of Louisiana Petition for Degrees it is one of the Landmarks adopted by the Grand Lodge and contained in the Handbook of Masonic Law:

LANDMARKS RECOGNIZED BY THE GRAND LODGE OF LOUISIANA (Adopted February 14, 1989)

18. A belief in the existence ofGod, in the immortality of the Soul and a resurrection thereof to future life.


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## hanzosbm (Aug 4, 2015)

LAMason said:


> We are required to take the Obligations on our VSL, so if someone does not have one what would they do?
> 
> While it is not mentioned on the Grand Lodge of Louisiana Petition for Degrees it is one of the Landmarks adopted by the Grand Lodge and contained in the Handbook of Masonic Law:
> 
> ...


Well, regarding the VSL, we're required to take the Obligation on A VSL, but that doesn't mean that one must believe in it.  I could swear an oath with my hand resting on one of the Harry Potter books.  To me, my oath is no less binding based on what I'm touching at the time. 

Regarding your Grand Lodge, that is very interesting.  While there probably aren't very many people out there who believe in a supreme being but not an afterlife, the fact that a man could be made a Mason in a regular lodge in one state but not another is interesting.


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

As it was so well stated by Cherrynoble, the point of contention seems to be the making of a Women Mason


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## dfreybur (Aug 5, 2015)

LAMason said:


> We are required to take the Obligations on our VSL, so if someone does not have one what would they do?



The degree puts your hands on the VSL that is on the altar.  If you don't ask for a specific one, you get the one that is usually on the altar.  All that's required is that the candidate be willing to continue at that point.  In my first degree I went in cold.  I didn't even know there was a Bible on the altar that I was going to put my hands on.  I thought it a nice touch that added to the solemnity of the degree ceremony.

Having experienced a VSL on the altar in his first degree, all that's required is he not be bothered by it being there for his second and third degrees.

Sure, a man can request his own VSL.  It's pretty cool to be at a degree where he does.  But most candidates use the VSL that is there and we have no way of telling how many have that particular physical book as their own, how many don't have a VSL in mind, how many have some other physical book in mind and understand the symbolism, how many figure an oath is binding no matter what book and that it's a good idea to have a book loved by the local majority.



> While it is not mentioned on the Grand Lodge of Louisiana Petition for Degrees it is one of the Landmarks adopted by the Grand Lodge and contained in the Handbook of Masonic Law:
> LANDMARKS RECOGNIZED BY THE GRAND LODGE OF LOUISIANA (Adopted February 14, 1989)
> 18. A belief in the existence of God, in the immortality of the Soul and a resurrection thereof to future life.



Not all GLs have a list of landmarks at all.  Among the GLs that do, not all include a reference to an afterlife.  It's common but not universal to require a belief in a continued existence.  This is why it gets phrased "a continued existence" at times to be as general as possible.


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## hanzosbm (Aug 5, 2015)

To circle back around to the Theosophy aspect, if we accept that all religions are telling the same story, then all religious books are essentially different translations of the same story.  At that point, what does it matter which book it is?


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## dfreybur (Aug 5, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> To circle back around to the Theosophy aspect, if we accept that all religions are telling the same story, then all religious books are essentially different translations of the same story.



It's a pretty big "if" to accept that all religions are telling the same story, or even that they all have the same principles at their core.  That's a Romance era idea that does not survive careful study.  Far better the Masonic approach that we accept men of faith and don't discuss the topic in detail.  There's far too much chance for conflict if we start telling men what their own faith means.



> At that point, what does it matter which book it is?



Going with the big "if", sure.

To many men an oath is binding no matter what was present when they took that oath on themselves.  To such men the book serves as an amplification.

To some men it matters which book is under their hands when they take an oath.  This is why we keep open the option to bring your own VSL.  To some men it matters which book is on the altar when they witness a degree.  This is why rules for other books are different in different jurisdictions.  There is potential for conflict in these two stances with tolerance as the key to its resolution.

Tolerance is not agreement.  Tolerance is mutual peace.  Tolerance is not acceptance.  Tolerance is working together.

We end up with a lesson that goes something like this - That man has a place in his heart where he holds something sacred, as I also have a place in my heart where I hold something sacred.  What he holds there is different than what I hold sacred.  We still have common ground to be brothers.

Experiencing a degree with a different VSL seems to be easier for some than for others.  Yet all brothers I have been with in degrees with different VSLs have managed it just fine.


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## Roy_ (Aug 6, 2015)

Theosophy... I ran into it when I was about 15 and have studied it for a year or 5,6,7, also its 'spin-off' Anthroposophy. On the long run I found the approach too syncretistic rather than sythetic. It did give me my startup for 'spiritual research' so I am not as negative about it as some are.

There is a whole lot to discuss about it that might or might not be fitting on this board. Blavatsky's theories of "(root) races", "epochs" and the like; the "Great White Brotherhood" (an idea copied by many early Freemason(-like organsations)s; the One Source for all religions (not as simple as recaptured above), etc.

The link to Freemasonry. Also as stated above, Theosophy had a big part in the early days of Le Droit Humain. Georges Martin started his mixed Freemasonry lodge and wrote an atheistic Rite for it. When the number of members did not reach his expected growth rate, he called in the Theosophists, being Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater. These two wrote a new Rite based on an English Rite, but with many theosophical elements. From then on LDH attracted many Theosophists. Besant and Leadbeater also helped to found the first LDH lodges in my own country (Netherlands). As time passed, new members found the Rite too theosophistic and started to rewrite it again. In the Netherlands it was fashioned after the Rite of the Grand Orient. Some friction resulted in lodges that left LDH and eventually in LDH giving their lodges the option between three Rites. The "French" Rite or "Rite Moderne" which is the atheistic Rite of Martin; an "English" Rite which is the Theosophic Rite and a "Scottish" Rite (by and far the largest) which is the most 'normal' Rite. 

Other than mixed Freemasonry, in the early 20th century also the Grand Orient was heavily under the influence of Theosophy as it was mightily popular in those days. The Rite has almost been rewritten to make it better fit Theosophic idea, but this was prevented in the end (yet the Rite _has _been rewritten in those days). This caused some Theosophists to leave their lodges dissattisfied, others undoubtely remained members of their lodges.

There may be no official ties between the two (or more) organistions, but at least in my country the Theosophical Society has always had an interest in Freemasonry (especially the mixed kind that they helped) judging their library. Also undoubtely there will be overlap in members, but this is not different with any other organisation.

I cannot tell for each and every country, but I can imagine things having been similar in other countries.


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## hanzosbm (Aug 6, 2015)

Gentlemen, thank you for the input. 

Brother dfreybur, I probably stated that 'if' a little too simply.  Although, going into these philosophies too deeply could be a book unto itself. 

I have found that the more I study, the more links I see between different religions/philosophies.  Granted, this might be because of the ideas that many of the early writers had that linked them all, but nonetheless, I think compelling arguments can be made.  WL Wilmshurst compared it to the story of the 7 men examining an elephant in the dark.  Each man later describing a completely different animal based on the part of the elephant they were examining (tusk, trunk, leg, etc). 
I continue to find more and more overlap if I'm willing to just tweek the way I look at things.  I once compared this to the movie The Sixth Sense.  You think you understand the story being told, until you get that one tiny piece of information that then completely changes the story, and at the same time, makes things fit even more perfectly. 
What I found interesting is that the readings I have done by Theosophists seems to indicate that they have the knowledge, but not the understanding.  In another thread I commented about why this might very well be why such important things must be discovered rather than taught.  It seems like they have all of the pieces of the puzzle in front of them, but they view them all separately.  If they just took the pieces they had, looked for where they connect, and put it all together...
As we know, society at large is blind to the things we have come to understand.  Even most Freemasons never attempt to lift the veil of allegory.  Those that do and who begin to see the light are so few and far between that it's next to impossible to gather and discuss these things.  I had hoped that the Theosophical Society having all the pieces would be a place for that, but it appears it is not.  So the search continues.


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## LAMason (Aug 6, 2015)

There are some that believe that humans have a “God Gene” or “Faith Gene”, but whether that is true or not I believe that it is human nature to believe that there is a higher power far beyond us.  As far as I can tell there has been no culture/society/civilization that that held a non-supernatural explanation of the world. 

It is that basic desire or need for an explanation of the world that I consider to be the common element of all belief systems be they monotheist, polytheist, or nature spirituality.  Also, when you consider that we all share a common ancestry at some point and history and traditions were undoubtedly passed down orally until they were written, it is not surprising that many religions share some similar stories such as the “great flood”.


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## Roy_ (Aug 6, 2015)

Hanzo, rather than reading Blavatsky and co., you might want to have a look at 'the Traditionalistic school', René Guénon, Frithjof Schuon, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Titus Burckhardt, etc. or Mircea Eliade, a scholar in comparitive religion and myth and a 'Traditionalist light'.


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## vangoedenaam (Aug 11, 2015)

Im a longterm fellow of the TS. Many of the early Theosophists were (co-)masons. Far from willing to do an AMA, i might be able to answer some questions.


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## vangoedenaam (Aug 11, 2015)

There still are factions. There are at least 4 Theosophical groups, and then there is Antroposophy which Rudolph Steiner started when he split from Theosophy.


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## Mike Martin (Aug 12, 2015)

The masonic connection for Theosophy is within the Co-masonry of Le Droit Humain, LDH took the normal Degree Ceremonies and added theosophy based lectures to them and then labelled it as "more esoteric" Masonry.


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## Roy_ (Aug 13, 2015)

For a few years yes, but see my previous reply (bottom reply of page 1 of this thread). This so-called "English Rite" is marginal in the Netherlands and Belgium. The biggest Rite within LDH is the "Scottish" Rite which (at least in the Netherlands) is very much like that of the Grand Orient. (The original atheistic Rite of George Martin ("French Rite" or "Rite Moderne") is also still in use, but also only by a few lodges (in Belgium it seems to be more popular though)). I do not know if LDH in the USA, France, Germany or whereever also use three Rites that lodges can 'choose' from and which one is bigger, but this would be interesting to know.

Vangoedenaam offered to tell a bit more about the connection between Theosophy and regular Freemasonry. That would make a nice read as well.


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## Mike Martin (Aug 13, 2015)

Roy_ said:


> The biggest Rite within LDH is the "Scottish" Rite which (at least in the Netherlands) is very much like that of the Grand Orient. (The original atheistic Rite of George Martin ("French Rite" or "Rite Moderne") is also still in use,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Roy_ (Aug 13, 2015)

I use quotations marks, because these are the names actually in use with LDH (and my own order), at least in Belgium and The Netherlands. I suppose that the name refers to George Martin being French. The other two names are not too well-chosen either in my opinion, but what do you do?


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## vangoedenaam (Aug 13, 2015)

I need to ask some of my acquaintances from LDH about the English rite. They may have visited there by now. 

The connection between masonry and Theosophy really is just an occasional one. People into esoteric stuff are sometimes attracted to masonry. That is what happened in the indian branch of the TS with Besant etc. they wrote some books on the subject, and brought knowledge to masonry. Not all theosophists are into rituals, or into initiation as a concept. The general idea in Theosophy is that it is time to open up on the hidden (occult) knowledge. So hiding it inside an initiation group doesnt necessarily go down well with them. 

In general, i find that the two are very much complementary.


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## Roy_ (Aug 14, 2015)

vangoedenaam said:


> I need to ask some of my acquaintances from LDH about the English rite. They may have visited there by now.


I have visited an English Rite once (not LDH by the way). Nice to see the differences and resemblances between that and our own "Scotish" Rite, but I prefer our own Rite. Most people on this board would mock it too I guess. Functionaries wear white garments. The opening is with incence. There is singing during the Lodge. Quite a different atmosphere, but overall surely reminding of a "Scotish" Rite. Besant and Leadbeater used a (the?) UK Rite as basis, so that is not all that strange.

As for the "Orde der Vrijmetselaren onder het Grootoosten der Nederlanden", I know that in the early 20th century works have been done on Rites and that discussions took place about making it more "esoteric" ('Theosophic'). Theosophists must sure have had quite a number in the Grand Orient in those days, otherwise this discussion would not have taken place. 

And indeed, Freemasonry can be complementary to many things. That is why there is a variety of people to be found within its ranks which certainly adds to the experience.


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## Mike Martin (Aug 14, 2015)

Roy I think the difficulty and why mainstream Masons do not agree with the tag "more esoteric" is because the bulk of the esoteric content of masculine Freemasonry (such as the Emulation working) is contained with the Lectures that accompany the Degree ceremonies not just the Degree Ceremonies themselves which is what LDH seemed to start off with.

Esoteric it may be but Masonic esoteric it is not.


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## Roy_ (Aug 14, 2015)

Again just quoting (Grand Orient literature). When the Theosophical interests were at its peak, apparently some people wanted to have this reflected in the Rites, even of the Grand Orient. That is all I wanted to say. But I Vangoedenaam is better fit to confirm or deny this.

But speaking of Emulation. An indirect link between Theosophy and UGLE seems to be that LDH UK was allowed to use the Emulation Rite in their own order in 1816. At least, according to themselves. This was not for a 'Theosophic' Rite, since that one seems to be called "Lauderdale" in the UK. Even more offtopic, in the UK LDH has even more "Craft degrees" than in the Netherlands, six against three. The description is a bit strange though, since in LDH there is not really Craft and Side/Higher. Their degrees just continue after three and one organisation heads all degrees, where -as far as I know- it is normally so that there is a 'Craft organisation' and a 'higher degrees organisation'. 
But I'm running off-topic.


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## Mike Martin (Aug 14, 2015)

I can see two mistakes there and they are related, neither Emulation working or LDH existed in 1816!  So that is clearly information that someone has imagined and then written down.

Just for clarity Emulation is not a "Rite" it is one of the versions that came out of the ceremonies that were promulgated by the UGLE's Lodge of Reconciliation following the Union of the 2 English Grand Lodges


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## Roy_ (Aug 14, 2015)

Ah yes, my bad, sloppy reading. The link says that one LDH lodge started to use Emulation when it was founded in 1921 and the "approval" refers to the 'founding' of Emulation (or so it seems).

Indeed it looks like I don't quite grasp the difference between "Rite" and "working", but going there in this thread will certainly lead it off-path too far. I'll see if I can find a more fitting place to go into that so we can leave the current thread to discuss Theosophy.


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