# Wings up vs. wings down



## David Hill (Jul 17, 2013)

I've noticed images of the double-headed eagle with its wings up and with its wings down. Can anyone shed some light on the symbolic differences for me?


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## crono782 (Jul 17, 2013)

In my readings and study of the SR monitor, M&D, etc i haven't come across an explanation of a wings up DH eagle. As far as I know SJ does not use any variation on it (explaining the lack of any explanation). NMJ uses wings down. As far as I can tell, wings up is used by PHA SR. Perhaps it has a symbolic meaning, but it could just be to differentiate. 


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## widows son (Jul 17, 2013)

Wings up: northern jurisdiction.
Wings down: southern jurisdiction.


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## crono782 (Jul 17, 2013)

Interesting. The NMJ caps I've seen are wings down also. PHA SJ also wings down. PHA NJ is the only one ive seen up. Although I haven't seen a whole lot of em. 


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## widows son (Jul 17, 2013)

I know here in Ontario we use wings up.


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## crono782 (Jul 17, 2013)

That's cool. I like both designs. Would be nice if there was a clear explanation if one exists. 


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## MarkR (Jul 18, 2013)

In the NMJ, the SGIG's wear wings up on purple caps.


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## rpbrown (Jul 18, 2013)

widows son said:


> Wings up: northern jurisdiction.
> Wings down: southern jurisdiction.



This is correct


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## timd24 (Jul 18, 2013)

According to the NMJ Constitution (2009)
In the description of 33Â° Active and Active Emeritus caps (art. 1219.1) and lapel buttons (art. 1216), the double-headed eagle is described as "a double-headed eagle, wings extended and pointing up." For the cap (art. 1219.2) and label button (art. 1217) of a 33Â° Honorary Member, the eagle is described as a "double-headed eagle, wings extended and pointing down," and for 32Â° lapel buttons (art. 1218.1) the eagle is described as a "double-headed eagle of gold, wings extended and pointing down."

I read this as 33 up 32 down


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## MarkR (Jul 19, 2013)

timd24 said:


> According to the NMJ Constitution (2009)
> In the description of 33Â° Active and Active Emeritus caps (art. 1219.1) and lapel buttons (art. 1216), the double-headed eagle is described as "a double-headed eagle, wings extended and pointing up." For the cap (art. 1219.2) and label button (art. 1217) of a 33Â° Honorary Member, the eagle is described as a "double-headed eagle, wings extended and pointing down," and for 32Â° lapel buttons (art. 1218.1) the eagle is described as a "double-headed eagle of gold, wings extended and pointing down."
> 
> I read this as 33 up 32 down


That is correct.  In the NMJ, the only cap with "wings up" is that of the SGIS's.


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## Bro.Joseph.Rossi.Pa.Mason (Dec 5, 2013)

According to the SJ Supreme Council is concerned anything that is "wings up" is purely an artistic license and has no official symbolism. I am a Northern Jurisdiction, Scottish Rite 32, from the valley of Philadelphia, Pa. everything on our regalia is also "wings down" just like the southern jurisdiction. But sometimes in the NMJ "wings up" can be used only to symbolize and distinguish its 33 only.


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## bjohn (Dec 8, 2013)

We use Wing's Up in Ontario Canada.


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## bushwickrich (Feb 7, 2014)

Position of the wings determine which jurisdiction, wings up identifies the northern jurisdiction and when pointed downward identifies the southern. 


Bro. Rich 4*
Judah Lodge #1


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## MarkR (Feb 9, 2014)

bushwickrich said:


> Position of the wings determine which jurisdiction, wings up identifies the northern jurisdiction and when pointed downward identifies the southern.
> 
> 
> Bro. Rich 4*
> Judah Lodge #1


That may be true in PHA Scottish Rite.  In "mainstream" Scottish Rite, Northern Masonic Jurisdiction, the 32Â° cap, the MSA (red) cap, and the 33Â° cap all have wings down.  Only the SGIG caps are wings up.


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## Bro.Joseph.Rossi.Pa.Mason (Feb 9, 2014)

MarkR said:


> That may be true in PHA Scottish Rite.  In "mainstream" Scottish Rite, Northern Masonic Jurisdiction, the 32Â° cap, the MSA (red) cap, and the 33Â° cap all have wings down.  Only the SGIG caps are wings up.



Correct 


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 20, 2015)

Am very new to the AASR (last weekend) and this has been very informative.


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## Canadian Paul (Nov 22, 2015)

Canada uses the 'wings up', Also, we don't use 'caps' for 32nd or 33rd degree members, rather 32nd degree brethren wear a red Teutonic cross collar jewel with the number '32' on the centre suspended on a red collar while the 33rd degree brethren wear a white collar from which is suspended a gold doube-headed eagle (wings up).


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 22, 2015)

Canadian Paul said:


> Canada uses the 'wings up', Also, we don't use 'caps' for 32nd or 33rd degree members, rather 32nd degree brethren wear a red Teutonic cross collar jewel with the number '32' on the centre suspended on a red collar while the 33rd degree brethren wear a white collar from which is suspended a gold doube-headed eagle (wings up).


So are there caps for those below 32nd degree?


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## Canadian Paul (Nov 22, 2015)

Warrior1256 said:


> So are there caps for those below 32nd degree?



No caps at all! We go at our freemasonry bare-headed here in Canada!

The 32deg or 33deg collar and jewel act as an 'apron' in any of the lower degrees. Only the officers and brethren who aren't yet 32deg masons wear aprons in the Lodge of Perfection or on the Chapter of Rose Croix. (Only 3 bodies in Canada)


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 22, 2015)

Canadian Paul said:


> No caps at all! We go at our freemasonry bare-headed here in Canada!
> 
> The 32deg or 33deg collar and jewel act as an 'apron' in any of the lower degrees. Only the officers and brethren who aren't yet 32deg masons wear aprons in the Lodge of Perfection or on the Chapter of Rose Croix. (Only 3 bodies in Canada)


Cool! Thanks for the reply brother. Always like receiving new info.


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## Richard Wilson (Mar 12, 2019)

Wings up? War time, fight for the greater good.
Wings down? Time of peace, country is currently not at war.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 12, 2019)

Richard Wilson said:


> Wings up? War time, fight for the greater good.
> Wings down? Time of peace, country is currently not at war.


Interesting!


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## Brother JC (Mar 12, 2019)

Richard Wilson said:


> Wings up? War time, fight for the greater good.
> Wings down? Time of peace, country is currently not at war.



This has to do with Scottish Rite how?


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## Winter (Mar 12, 2019)

Richard Wilson said:


> Wings up? War time, fight for the greater good.
> Wings down? Time of peace, country is currently not at war.


Do you have a source for this? It sounds like an urban myth like the one about the Presidential Seal changing during wartime. (It doesn't) Everything I have ever seen about the SR says it is merely a style issue whether the wings are up or down. 

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## Brother JC (Mar 12, 2019)

Winter said:


> Do you have a source for this? It sounds like an urban myth like the one about the Presidential Seal changing during wartime. (It doesn't) Everything I have ever seen about the SR says it is merely a style issue whether the wings are up or down.



Considering we’ve been at war for nearly two decades and the wings are still down, I have to agree.


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## Winter (Mar 12, 2019)

JamestheJust said:


> In my view there are two sources for the eagle imagery in Freemasonry.
> The double headed eagle is used nationally only in the northern hemisphere.  This tells something.  Leonardo gave the game away with his Wolf and Eagle
> The wolf (of heaven) is also known as the dog star - Sirius - the blazing star.  While Leonardo does not show it, the Eagle at the North Pole looks both into the Heavens and into the Earth, thus can be portrayed as double headed.  The Eagle is a veiling of a great entity.
> The other source of Eagle imagery comes from the alchemy practiced by many brethren that were both Royal Society members and Freemasons prior to 1717.   To fly the eagle is to use sublimation in alchemical purification.  Alchemical symbolism is rife in most 18th degree rituals.



I don't think you've made the argument for the connection to Leonardo's work.  But the source for the double headed eagle in in Scottish Rite is no mystery.  It was supplied by Frederick the Great during the formative years of the Rite.  And as a powerful symbol was used throughout history before its widespread use in Europe. From the Hittites and Hindoos, to the Turks and Arabians who passed it to the Crusaders, to the Holy Roman Empire, even the American Indians.  But the question at hand, which I think has been pretty thoroughly answered, is why some show wings up and wings down.


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## The Traveling Man (Apr 29, 2019)

Northern Masonic Jurisdiction is wings down for 32° and 33° Honorary. Wings up is for 33° Active.
Southern Jurisdiction is wings down for 32°. There are no wings on the 33° cap
USC (PHA) Northern Jurisdiction in wings up.
USC (PHA) Southern Jurisdiction is wings down.


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## DaveBowman (May 30, 2019)

The double-headed eagle appeared on some high-degree documents during the 18th century, before the Mother Supreme Council was formed at Charleston. It is an heraldic device or "charge," i.e. a design used in heraldry. In heraldry, it is described as a two-headed eagle (or an eagle with two heads) "displayed." The word "displayed" simply means that it has its wings spread open, and does not designate how those wings should appear (up, down or straight out). 

In heraldry, devices or charges are described in a "blazon," that is, in words. It is left up to the artist to translate that blazon into a visual image, using traditional images. No two artists will interpret a blazon the exact same way. So, some heraldic artists will interpret a "two-headed eagle displayed" with its wings up, while others will interpret it with wings down, and others will interpret it with wings straight out.

When a Supreme Council selects a design for its insignia, letterheads, regalia, etc., it will simply choose the design it likes the best. Within one Supreme Council's jurisdiction, you may see a double-headed eagle with wings down on 32nd Degree caps, but then you may also see it with wings straight out on buildings, as you see on the House of the Temple in Washington, DC. At the same time, you may also see other designs with wings up on letterheads, business cards, or in publications. 

The point is that it doesn't mean anything other than the choice or preference of the person making the decision at the time it is employed.


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## Elexir (May 30, 2019)

DaveBowman said:


> The double-headed eagle appeared on some high-degree documents during the 18th century, before the Mother Supreme Council was formed at Charleston. It is an heraldic device or "charge," i.e. a design used in heraldry. In heraldry, it is described as a two-headed eagle (or an eagle with two heads) "displayed." The word "displayed" simply means that it has its wings spread open, and does not designate how those wings should appear (up, down or straight out).
> 
> In heraldry, devices or charges are described in a "blazon," that is, in words. It is left up to the artist to translate that blazon into a visual image, using traditional images. No two artists will interpret a blazon the exact same way. So, some heraldic artists will interpret a "two-headed eagle displayed" with its wings up, while others will interpret it with wings down, and others will interpret it with wings straight out.
> 
> ...



If however the blason contain specific instructions like "eagle displayed with its wings up" or "square and compass displayed set at x°" it will not be up to the herald.


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## Winter (May 31, 2019)

JamestheJust said:


> Oddly enough Leonardo's Eagle has its wings displayed.
> 
> It may also be worth considering the alchemical process known as "flying the eagle"


Why is that odd? Should it have been in another pose?

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