# Catholics vs Masonry



## Curtis Wilson (Mar 19, 2009)

I've been posting my opinions on another site run by a Catholic, of which I'm also a Catholic.  There is some good information that all Masons should become educated on that are brought out in this forum.  I'm not publicising this as a good forum because they attack Masonry, but it wouldn't hurt for other Masons to debate his issues.  I came across this site because of conflicts other candidates have had with Masonry and who were also Catholics.  I reconciled this with myself as I have been a Mason longer than a Catholic and know the difference.  The reason I suggest getting on this forum and debating his points are that there are a lot of Catholics that will come across this in a search and read only his view with very little debate from the other side.  Don't dismiss the issue either, because it is very serious to Catholics and if you are not educated about what the cadidates that are one, and what they are going through, you tend to dismiss them as not being sincere about being a Mason in the first place, and that is untrue.

"http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/images/William_Blake.jpg&imgrefurl=http://jesusbewith.us/%3Fp%3D131&usg=__oT3uF18_XGcdd8IWufRfNCBiU6k=&h=457&w=316&sz=93&hl=en&start=184&tbnid=phf2wfGGvxAfQM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=89&prev=/imag"







*-Fixed one of your images, the other I couldn't figure out.  -JTM*


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## cmoreno85tx (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm a Catholic and I fell no need what so ever to defend my being a Mason to anyone. Not once has a Brother said anything to me about being Catholic and not one Catholic has said anything to me about being a Mason. I feel everybody is entitled to thier own opinion and of course we should not argue with ignorance.


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## LRG (Mar 19, 2009)

its all political and a shame.
my theory and only is that phillip the fair did not want to pay the templars the money owed and got with his childhood friend the pope and so on.
but when exactly did the vatican denounce freemasonry?


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## Texas_Justice85 (Mar 20, 2009)

officially issued by Pope Clement XII on 28 April 1738


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## gortex6 (Mar 20, 2009)

Considering how they have yet to refuse communion to pro-abortion catholic politicians or excommunicate pedifile priests, I could care less what they  say.  Its not that freemasonry is opposed to catholicism, I sense it to be the other way; this could be where the secret grips and words originate(does the inquisition ring a bell?).  The day the catholic faith refuses my communion for being a just and upright man, is the last day I ever set foot in a catholic church.


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## tomasball (Mar 20, 2009)

Perhaps fifteen years ago there was a very fine paper presented in the TLR that analyzed the evolution of Catholic canon law regarding Freemasonry.  I can't recall the exact year or author, but anyone should be able to find it easily if they have access to a collection of proceedings of the Texas Lodge of Research.

There was also an interesting exchange a few years ago between the Masonic Service Association and the office of Cardinal Mahoney of Los Angeles:

http://www.msana.com/focusarchives/focusjan01.asp


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## JTM (Mar 20, 2009)

I proudly wear my Masonic ring every time I recieve communion.

I don't consider their ignorance to be a good reason to not be a mason.


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## cmoreno85tx (Mar 20, 2009)

gortex6 said:


> The day the catholic faith refuses my communion for being a just and upright man, is the last day I ever set foot in a catholic church.



Well said Brother.  I feel the same way, although I will always be Catholic, if I'm refused cummunion, then so be it. They can't refuse me entry.


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## ctp2nd (Mar 22, 2009)

This discussion makes me laugh, but only a little bit.  The Catholic Church is completely justified in whatever beliefs they have and whatever rules that impose upon their membership.  

Point: "They argue this and that about masonry, and they aren't right, I've never said, thought, felt, or done that in lodge.  They are wrong about masonry..."

I counter: The guy arguing with you is an idiot.  His first, last, and only line should be, "The Church is against its membership affiliating in any way with Masonic Organizations."  Saying anything more than that is just trying to justify the Churches reasoning, and anyone besides the Pope himself can't do that properly.  He's an idiot for arguing, so... point / counter point all day... all that either of you will do is drive the wedge between the two of you, and your perceptions of the other's organization even further.

Your reasoning of "being a mason longer and knowing the difference..." is inconsequential.  When you went through RCIA (i'm guessing that you did if you are now a Catholic), you probably took an oath of sorts in which you stated that you would follow the teachings of the church, yaddi yaddi yaddi...  The Church states pretty clearly that their membership should not be Masons, as we say Athiests should not be made mason.  Because they get to base their membership on their beliefs, they would have been completely right to "black ball" you in the first place, or bring you up on "catholic charges" had you been found out later.   Being a Mason longer only means that you should have never been made a catholic in the first place, unless you denounced your membership when you joined.  You, being a Mason, have a greater tolerance for the Church's bias and that guy's arguments about our fraternity.  They, however, have no tolerance for disobeying Cannon Law, nor should they.


Point: "I don't have to defend the fact I'm a mason to anyone..."  I applaud you, sir.  That is the stance "The Church" has taken towards Masonry and its dislike thereof.  Masonry could give a hoot less if you are a Catholic, the fact that you are solidifies one of the requirements to be a Mason, that of a belief in Diety.  Catholicism, however, has many more requirements of their membership, one of which being: "Must not be affiliated with freemasonry."  As far as "everyone should be entitled to their own opinion", I agree, but opinions do no decide a man's salvation.  It isn't the Catholic Church's opinion that Masonry is bad for the Faith and its Membership, it is, from their stand point, a Devine Truth.  While the foundation of their belief, not opinion, may be rooted in ignorance about the Craft, it doesn't not lessen the Divinity of the belief itself.

Gortex: The *secret grips* and words are most likely borrowed straight from Operative Masonry where those that were skilled in building the cathedrals needed a way to recognize each other and to keep Trade Secrets to those that have given of themselves to the craft.  This kept the cowans and eaves droppers from learning their valued trade and doing what we would call today, "Fly By Night" stone masonry.  As masonry transition from Operative to Speculative, the grips, words, brotherly bond, and secrecy is what drew some of the great thinkers of the Enlightenment Era into our fraternity and helped make it hat it is today.  

As far as the pro-abortion *catholics* and pedofile priests go, the Church most likely sees them in the same light as they do Catholic Masons... They have all chosen to do something that is against the Churche's beliefs and before receiving communion, they should go to confession, say a gazillion hail mary's, and never do bad again.  Since you have no idea as to what these people have, and have not done in trying to rectify their errs, I don't think you actually know how many of said people have and have not been refused communion.  And sir, they believe that one of the worst things that a person can do is to receive Holy Communion when said person is in poor standing with God (i don't know the exact phrasing) and if they were to refuse you communion, it would be, from their perspective, doing what is best for you in allowing you to right yourself with God before taking Holy Communion.  Remember, this is Their Ritual, and I'm pretty sure their committee on work is as strict as ours.  I wouldn't take it as personal as you implied you might.

JTM: I'm glad that you wear your ring proudly, even in their rituals.  I would argue that the reason a Catholic shouldn't be a Mason is because their doing so is directly against the Pope, Cannon Law, and the Church itself.  If a Catholic is capable of distancing himself from these core pieces of the Church's governance and philosophy, I would ask him why he still claims to be a Catholic.  To ignore the Pope and Cannon Law would be the same as a Master Mason having little regard for the Constitution, Resolutions and Edicts of the Grand Lodge of Texas (or whatever GL he hails from).  If you no longer follow the rules of your organization, it may be time for you to find another organization.



Anywho, sorry about the large post.. I've just been following the Catholic / Masonic issue for a few years now and have come to appreciate the Church's ritual, rules, and regulations as I appreciate those in my own lodge.  I would no sooner condemn the Church for refusing communion with a Mason as I would condemn a Lodge for refusing to allow a brother who is 10 days past June 24th with his dues payment sit in lodge.  They have their requirements for being a Catholic and one of those is that you not be a Mason.   

Oh, incase anyone gives a hoot... I am not a catholic, though I am a fan.  


Sincerely and Fraternally,

-Tom


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## gortex6 (Mar 22, 2009)

I am catholic and maybe I am missing something.  How can you apply justifications in masonry to catholicism and vice versa?  Catholicism is not a fraternal order, and freemasonry is not a religion.



> As far as the pro-abortion *catholics* and pedofile priests go, the Church most likely sees them in the same light as they do Catholic Masons...


Not true.  The church says one thing on the abortion issue then coverty does another by not acting upon it.  If leaders of faith cannot keep their integrity then why should I listen to them?


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## ctp2nd (Mar 22, 2009)

gortex6 said:


> I am catholic and maybe I am missing something.  How can you apply justifications in masonry to catholicism and vice versa?  Catholicism is not a fraternal order, and freemasonry is not a religion.



What justifications?  Catholicism is a religion and they need no justification as to why they dislike their members being masons other than to say that it is against some Divine Truth (Papal Bull or Cannon Law).  Masonry doesn't dislike Catholicism, and therefore has nothing to justify in that regard.  As to the last sentence, I agree, neither are the same thing.  Catholicism is a religion with a lot of qualifications for being a member, and even more to be a good member.  In this, they can be bigoted against people, organizations, and ideologies they feel are contradictory to their doctrine.  



gortex6 said:


> Not true.  The church says one thing on the abortion issue then coverty does another by not acting upon it.  If leaders of faith cannot keep their integrity then why should I listen to them?



The Church is firm in its belief that abortion is wrong.  They have been steadfast, from the Pope down, in telling their membership that it is wrong.  Most recently, the Pope himself said that he has issues with Obama's views on abortion.  Now, as far as enforcing and punishing people for thinking differently, the Church is somewhat limited in what it can do.   The Church does support, very strongly, organizations such as "Coalition for Life", which is one of the most active and impressive anti-abortion groups that I have been witness to.  They support education in abortion alternatives, they are very public about their views and what *should* be the views of their membership, and they publicly condemn the acts of politicians like John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi, etc.  I'm not sure how you want them to "act upon it".  They seem pretty active sans of excommunication.  As far as denying communion to people:  


			
				http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/06/politics/main610547.shtml said:
			
		

> â€œIf the person has not been by name excommunicated, it is presumed that he should receive communion,â€ explained Ladislas M. Orsy, a Jesuit expert on cannon law at Georgetown Law School. Orsy said there are â€œextremeâ€ exceptions, an example being a person who commits murder in public and attempts to receive communion having not yet been officially excommunicated.



The leaders of the faith have one thing that allows me to forgive their lapses in integrity: they are human.  While I hold them to a higher standard than I do most people, I also understand that they are as prone to imperfection as readily as you or I.  The day that the Church changes their fundamental beliefs on abortion to something less than it is today is the day that I question the integrity of the Church, not its leadership.  All in all, the leadership should be stewards of their doctrine, and will in time make errors in their stewardship.


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## JEbeling (Mar 22, 2009)

I think the Catholic church wants its members to become Knights of Columbus..? would rather them spend time church and give any spair money to the church rather that other groups.. ! Think its a matter of control.. !


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## ctp2nd (Mar 22, 2009)

The KoC was set up as an alternative for its members who were joining masonic lodges in search of fellowship and fraternity and the Church saw it as a way of satiating this need/desire.  I would venture to say that it is more about a Church approved alternative than it is about controlling their members.


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## JEbeling (Mar 22, 2009)

Was raised in the Catholic chruch.. ! and in my early days it was all about control.. what movies you watch.. who you dated.. dances you went to.. the local parish preist had a lot of control.. ! In those days there would have never been anyone in our church who would have thought about becoming a Mason.. ! my uncles became Masons in the military and my grandmother never knew.. ! 

And if you look at the preist who started the K of C.. ! his stated goal was for K of C members to hire their own.. ! he either was a mason or knew a lot about it when he formed the origanization.. ! they are a lot alike except for the idea of insurance.. and only having Catholics join..? from what I remember they can not open a lodge without a preist present.. ? They do a lot of good for their community.. !


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## ctp2nd (Mar 22, 2009)

Thats cool.. Thank you for the info.   I hope everyone is having a good evening.

-ctp-


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## Curtis Wilson (Mar 23, 2009)

cpt2nd, You have laid out an argument in a clear, spelled out way.  But being a Mason first and then a Catholic.  Perhaps being a Mason first and then a Catholic might have been raised if at the time I knew of the issue.  At the time, it was never raised.

I do believe that if we ignore the topic, then nothing will change.  If we create discussion between Grand Lodges and the Catholic Church authorities, then and only then will we have oportunities to change the minds of the Church and reverse previous law.  It can never be said that previous rulings from the Catholic Church haven't been reversed before.  If it ever does, I think our membership will increase significantly.


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## Texas_Justice85 (Mar 25, 2009)

Hey Casey, where ya been?


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## JTM (Mar 31, 2009)

JTM said:


> I proudly wear my Masonic ring every time I recieve communion.
> 
> I don't consider their ignorance to be a good reason to not be a mason.





Curtis Wilson said:


> cpt2nd, You have laid out an argument in a clear, spelled out way.  But being a Mason first and then a Catholic.  Perhaps being a Mason first and then a Catholic might have been raised if at the time I knew of the issue.  At the time, it was never raised.
> 
> I do believe that if we ignore the topic, then nothing will change.  If we create discussion between Grand Lodges and the Catholic Church authorities, then and only then will we have oportunities to change the minds of the Church and reverse previous law.  It can never be said that previous rulings from the Catholic Church haven't been reversed before.  If it ever does, I think our membership will increase significantly.



i bring it up every time i take communion.  priests don't seem to mind.


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## Mason296 (Mar 31, 2009)

I became a Mason several years ago and am just now hitting my one year anniversary of being Catholic. I haad heard that if you were Catholic, you couldn't be a mason, so in my RCIA classes I asked about it. They said they knew several Catholics who were Masons. I realize some of the older Catholics may still cling to the older beliefs, so I don't flaunt? it, but I am very comfortable with be a Catholic Mason. 

Brian Cater
Worshipful Master
Port Arthur Lodge 1264


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## david918 (Apr 1, 2009)

At our lodge practice last week I was the only brother who was not Catholic


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## gortex6 (Apr 10, 2009)

ctp2nd said:


> The Church is firm in its belief that abortion is wrong.  They have been steadfast, from the Pope down, in telling their membership that it is wrong.  Most recently, the Pope himself said that he has issues with Obama's views on abortion.  Now, as far as enforcing and punishing people for thinking differently, the Church is somewhat limited in what it can do.   The Church does support, very strongly, organizations such as "Coalition for Life", which is one of the most active and impressive anti-abortion groups that I have been witness to.  They support education in abortion alternatives, they are very public about their views and what *should* be the views of their membership, and they publicly condemn the acts of politicians like John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi, etc.  I'm not sure how you want them to "act upon it".  They seem pretty active sans of excommunication.  As far as denying communion to people:
> 
> 
> The leaders of the faith have one thing that allows me to forgive their lapses in integrity: they are human.  While I hold them to a higher standard than I do most people, I also understand that they are as prone to imperfection as readily as you or I.  The day that the Church changes their fundamental beliefs on abortion to something less than it is today is the day that I question the integrity of the Church, not its leadership.  All in all, the leadership should be stewards of their doctrine, and will in time make errors in their stewardship.



Sure, explain this one <---click here 

Again, says one thing and does the other....


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## JEbeling (Apr 10, 2009)

Well I kinda wonder about all the members of Congress who are Pro-Choice and still go to church every Sunday.. ! 

The Catholic church has a lot of priest who have different points of view.. !


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## C. B. Barbee (Apr 10, 2009)

Pelosi certainly caught some guff from Vatican officials on her overly publicized trip to her family's motherland back in January.  Apparently she expected to be fully received with all the bells and whistles that the Papacy has to offer a woman of her stature, despite the fact that her party's policies that she is the head representative of are totally contrary to belief.  

Oh well.


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## Old Corky (Apr 15, 2009)

*Secret Organization*

I have read and been told that one of the main complaints the Catholic Church has about Freemasonry is that it is a secret organization. 

The following came from the Fr. McCormick Council 3880 of the Knights of Columbus at Crystal Lake, IL web site at http://www.kofc3880.org/welcome.htm a couple of years ago. The statement below is a direct quote from that web site.

      "Let's clear up some misconceptions as well:
      We are not a secret society. Certain induction ceremonies are
      kept confidential in order to preserve the beauty and dignity of
      the lessons taught - namely - charity, unity, fraternity and 
      patriotism."

I do believe that, that same statement, word for word, could also be painted on the front of every Masonic Lodge Hall in the U.S.A.)

Corky


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## Blake Bowden (Apr 16, 2009)

Well stated Brother.


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## gortex6 (May 10, 2009)

ctp2nd,
I SAY AGAIN.  THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS ONE THING AND DOES THE OTHER!  

Catholic political divide over Obama at Notre Dame <-----click here and explain this one too!


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## Taurus27 (May 10, 2009)

I was brought up a Catholic, but no longer one(due to reasons) and when I joined Freemasonry, some Catholic friends were horrified and called Freemasonry the "#$%^ of the devil and everything else.
I had to go to great lengths to calm them down and finally said to them....."Am I a bad man?"...they just didn't know what to say.
They now have a tolerance to Freemasonry and I'll always remove my ring before entering their house, just to keep the peace.
The Catholic Church in my younger days fed a lot of stories to parishioners, mainly to keep Catholics from straying away. ie....mixed marriages were banned. My friends are strict catholics and obviously not thinking for themselves but are following a directive from the Catholic Church.


I embrace Freemasonry because of the Freedom of mind and heart.


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## rhitland (May 11, 2009)

I like your style Brother Taurus!


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