# Irregular ritual



## NY.Light.II (Oct 21, 2015)

I think I saw a thread on a simile topic earlier but I have been unable to locate it.  I realize that, due to the high frequency of regular Masons here, the question may not go anywhere.  

Without revealing any specific secrets, Do irregular jurisdictions, specifically the GODF, use the same ritual as a regular and recognized jurisdiction? If not, what are the differences?


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## Ressam (Oct 21, 2015)

NY.Light.II said:


> I think I saw a thread on a simile topic earlier but I have been unable to locate it.  I realize that, due to the high frequency of regular Masons here, the question may not go anywhere.
> 
> Without revealing any specific secrets, Do irregular jurisdictions, specifically the GODF, use the same ritual as a regular and recognized jurisdiction? If not, what are the differences?



IMHO, rituals are the same. But, it's no so important, I think.
"Words & actions". Rituals are "derivatives", I think.
"Dogms" are important. Atheists, of course, may be good guys. And, The World is nothin' without women. But.
The Question is: why Freemasonry needed?
If I get Really True Answer, I'll understand may be.


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## NY.Light.II (Oct 21, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Needed by whom for what?
> 
> If the human race has a purpose beyond its own welfare then the human race may require training and instruction.
> 
> If so, a system such as Freemasonry could be useful, if not too distorted by human self-interest.



I think what he was referring to was "why does [regular] freemasonry need the landmarks of theistic belief?"  Hard to tell through the muddled English.


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## Glen Cook (Oct 21, 2015)

NY.Light.II said:


> I think I saw a thread on a simile topic earlier but I have been unable to locate it.  I realize that, due to the high frequency of regular Masons here, the question may not go anywhere.
> 
> Without revealing any specific secrets, Do irregular jurisdictions, specifically the GODF, use the same ritual as a regular and recognized jurisdiction? If not, what are the differences?



There are so many irregular/clandestine groups, it would be difficult to give a general response.  Certainly, some use those found in regular Freemasonry, for instance, Emulation or Rectified Rite, or aPreston Webb variation. 

One might also note that regular Masons would hopefully only have limited knowledge of rituals used by clandestine Masons.


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## NY.Light.II (Oct 21, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> There are so many irregular/clandestine groups, it would be difficult to give a general response.



That's why I specified the GOdF.


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## Classical (Oct 21, 2015)

Sometimes less is more!


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 22, 2015)

NY.Light.II said:


> Without revealing any specific secrets, Do irregular jurisdictions, specifically the GODF, use the same ritual as a regular and recognized jurisdiction? If not, what are the differences?


I'm a relatively new MM but since we can not visit clandestine lodges it would seem that this would be hard to know.


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## Ressam (Oct 22, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Needed by whom for what?
> 
> If the human race has a purpose beyond its own welfare then the human race may require training and instruction.
> 
> If so, a system such as Freemasonry could be useful, if not too distorted by human self-interest.



I just wonder:
the guys("Founding-Fathers"of Freemasonry), who officially created it, and it means that they really have sth. like "exclusive rights" on it.
I wonder -- what would be their reaction&opinion, if they would know that later -- there'll be an acceptance of women& atheists to Fraternity?
Have they been imagined of that -- later there'll be such "transformation" in Freemasonry?


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## Glen Cook (Oct 22, 2015)

Ressam said:


> I just wonder:
> the guys("Founding-Fathers"of Freemasonry), who officially created it, and it means that they really have sth. like "exclusive rights" on it.
> I wonder -- what would be their reaction&opinion, if they would know that later -- there'll be an acceptance of women& atheists to Fraternity?
> Have they been imagined of that -- later there'll be such "transformation" in Freemasonry?


Women and atheists are not accepted in regular Freemasonry


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## Dontrell Stroman (Oct 22, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> Women and atheists are not accepted in regular Freemasonry



There's a guy I work with that is in a regular lodge (GL of GA) and he stated that he had sat in a lodge with women when he traveled up north. I asked him if if approved of it and he stated "well what can I say, I had to follow that jurisdictions rules."


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## Glen Cook (Oct 22, 2015)

Travelling Man91 said:


> There's a guy I work with that is in a regular lodge (GL of GA) and he stated that he had sat in a lodge with women when he traveled up north. I asked him if if approved of it and he stated "well what can I say, I had to follow that jurisdictions rules."


He errs.  Either he sat in an irregular lodge, or he is inaccurate in his recollection.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 23, 2015)

Travelling Man91 said:


> There's a guy I work with that is in a regular lodge (GL of GA) and he stated that he had sat in a lodge with women when he traveled up north


If so then this was a clandestine lodge and he broke his obligation by attending.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Oct 23, 2015)

He advised me that his obligation did not state that he could not sit in a lodge with women. It took me by surprise.


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## Glen Cook (Oct 23, 2015)

Travelling Man91 said:


> He advised me that his obligation did not state that he could not sit in a lodge with women. It took me by surprise.


Yeah.  Right.  Forget that whole clandestine lodge prohibition.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 24, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> Yeah.  Right.  Forget that whole clandestine lodge prohibition.


Yeah, really.


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## hiram357 (Oct 28, 2015)

To the OP, the answer is mostly no.
There is a vast variety of Masonic ritual out there. Just because ritual within a state grand lodge is more or less uniform (with some notable exceptions) does not mean that this is so outside of the United States.  Within European grand lodges, both regular and irregular, there are often a variety of rituals performed under their jurisdiction. For example, I know the GODF has many lodges that work the French Rite,  which has evolved to cater to that obedience's particular humanistic tendencies. But, at the same time, there are lodges under the GODF that practice the AASR, the Rectified Rite, and any one of a number of other Masonic ritual systems.  Some of them are similar to recognized jurisdictions, some are not.


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## memphisrite (Nov 1, 2015)

As a brother said before: rites by themselves are not irregular or regular. I am part of a regular Lodge working under the jurisdiction of the most worshipful grand Lodge of the Dominican Republic, with relationships with all regular grand lodges in the USA and the UGLE. Working on the Ancient and primitive Memphis Rite (not to be mistaken by Memphis - misraim or misraim) and we work using all ancient landmarks. So,  a rite that most masons in USA will consider irregular is practiced in a regular Lodge.


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## Ressam (Nov 1, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Does the claim of *"time immemorial" lodges* indicate that Grand Lodges are *an innovation* in Masonry?
> 
> And I do not understand how *nations that believe in competition as the driver of progress* can also believe in exclusive territory for Grand Lodges.



Hi, James.
Sorry for the late answer. 
Maybe I misunderstood you, but, IMHO:
"Freemasonry" is not a "product" or a "market"(in economy) to be subject of transformation.
Please, correct me, If I'm wrong.


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## Ressam (Nov 1, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> If one can believe Albert Mackay's The Symbolism of Freemasonry, " the ceremony is not the substance. It is but the outer garment which covers and perhaps adorns it".
> 
> Thus the ritual changes in all ages, but the philosophy and science remain the same (if you can find them).


Probably, I misunderstood you, Mr.James.
If you're talking about "ritual". Yes. IMHO, Rituals may change.
I meant "dogms". Faith in God&Women.
Excuse me.


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## GKA (Nov 3, 2015)

In my lodge there is an excessive fixation on ritual, I find it almost comical in that the ritual is changed almost every year at the whim of the latest grand master.
You have to ask yourself where the historic significance of ritual goes after it has been modified continually 
Eventually there remains little which could be recognized by one of our original brothers from ages past.
The fact is that the ritual is really insignificant to the fundamental lessons of the craft.


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## memphisrite (Nov 11, 2015)

GKA said:


> In my lodge there is an excessive fixation on ritual, I find it almost comical in that the ritual is changed almost every year at the whim of the latest grand master.
> You have to ask yourself where the historic significance of ritual goes after it has been modified continually
> Eventually there remains little which could be recognized by one of our original brothers from ages past.
> The fact is that the ritual is really insignificant to the fundamental lessons of the craft.



I have traveled to a couple places and visited a couple lodges, it seems that you will find different versions of the A&ASR everywhere you go. It´s called uses and customs. And even in the same Grand Lodge you will find lodges that have a different version of the same rite. Sometimes this worries me a little.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 11, 2015)

memphisrite said:


> I have traveled to a couple places and visited a couple lodges, it seems that you will find different versions of the A&ASR everywhere you go. It´s called uses and customs. And even in the same Grand Lodge you will find lodges that have a different version of the same rite. Sometimes this worries me a little.


Why does this worry you?


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## memphisrite (Nov 11, 2015)

Well, what I mean is that sometimes, when i visit another lodge, i fear that I maybe doing something wrong because the uses and customs of that lodge are different to what I am used to.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 11, 2015)

memphisrite said:


> Well, what I mean is that sometimes, when i visit another lodge, i fear that I maybe doing something wrong because the uses and customs of that lodge are different to what I am used to.


I suggest it isn't "wrong", just different.  I have traveled to many lodges in many countries.  I have never seen someone bothered that a visitor did something different.


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## GKA (Nov 11, 2015)

The differences I have seen are not anything that a visitor should concern himself with, after all, as a visitor, your not participating in the ritual


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## GrandJojo (Nov 12, 2015)

There are many rituals practiced in the Grand Orient of France. The main one is the Rite Français. But there are "old" versions, and "simplified" - as well as numerous declinasions.  

The Rite Français, through 275 years has gone through several reforms and changes due to political influence. Not all Lodges adopted these changes, and sometimes made changes of their own - anything is possiblle. The notion of God was entirely removed from the GODF by 1877, this was a progressive effort - which caused the creation of the Grande Loge de France.  By 1920, the Rite Français was but a shadow of its former self. Efforts were mad to revive previous versions to various success - especially where the re-introduction of the Great Architect of the Universe was atempted to be reintroduced.


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## chrmc (Nov 12, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> The local GL recently reverted to its ritual from the1920s - having become disillusioned with many changes



Which is kind of interesting that they chose that particular ritual as being the "true and correct one." Because if you study the history of ritual development a bit you'll clearly see that changes have been happening ever since the 1700's. So why the 1920 should be correct, I'm not really sure.


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## dfreybur (Nov 13, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> I suggest it isn't "wrong", just different.  I have traveled to many lodges in many countries.  I have never seen someone bothered that a visitor did something different.



Visiting lodges in other jurisdictions and discussing ritual variations is fun to those who like the ritual.  In other jurisdictions it's their way and just different.

Within jurisdictions that teach a standard ritual for all of their lodges, it becomes a discussion of what's an old version, what's a new version, what's a mistake, what started as a mistake that became a technically incorrect variation in that one lodge that no one has corrected.


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