# Awkward



## hanzosbm (Jul 28, 2015)

Ever had an acquaintance express interest in the craft/ask for a petition but you didn't feel they were worthy?  How did you handle it?


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## coachn (Jul 28, 2015)

I tell him to contact a local lodge and enquire with the secretary.  The tough part is when he asks to have you sign the petition or act as a reference.


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## crono782 (Jul 28, 2015)

Depends on the reason. I believe every man can work his rough ashlar towards the perfect, although sometimes they still won't pass the West gate. I tell everyone who inquires that we hold a certain standard of character for being considered and let them internalize that thought and decide if they are worthy.


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## hanzosbm (Jul 28, 2015)

Just to be clear, this isn't about a single individual, but rather a few I've known over time.

My brother one time asked me why I never asked him to join.  I explained that we have certain rules and one of them was that we could not invite people to join.  He scoffed and said "I'd never follow rules like that.  So what do I have to do to join?".
My cousin likewise has expressed numerous times that he doesn't believe in following rules or allowing someone else to tell him what to do (which is why he can't keep a job).  When I told him he'd have to learn to follow our rules if he wanted to join he said "we'll see about that".

In all of these cases, I've just answered their questions and generally avoided actually getting them a petition which is good because I don't know how I'd handle it.  On the one hand, I could always sign it and then anonymously vote against them, but that is rather dishonest.  On the other hand, I could tell them no and risk hurting their feelings.  Like I said, I've been fortunate thus far, but I thought it might make for an interesting topic of conversation.


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## MarkR (Jul 29, 2015)

What you described would be easy for me.  If they told me that they would have no intention of trying to follow Masonic rules, I'd reply "well, then, I guess you can't be a Mason."  I have told that to one young man who told me he could never call a Jew his brother.


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## GKA (Jul 31, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> Ever had an acquaintance express interest in the craft/ask for a petition but you didn't feel they were worthy?  How did you handle it?


I discuss Masonry with him until I find a road block, like he's an Atheist or whatever, then i explain why that road block prevents him from becoming a Mason, if I don't find a road block, then I cannot in clear conscience deny his attempt to join.


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## Bill Lins (Aug 1, 2015)

I would consider their refusal to follow our rules a MAJOR roadblock.


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## GKA (Aug 1, 2015)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> I would consider their refusal to follow our rules a MAJOR roadblock.


I totally agree


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## GKA (Aug 1, 2015)

While you are certainly entirled to your opinion brother, I would remind you that your position is not in keeping with Masonic purpose


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## Glen Cook (Aug 1, 2015)

GKA said:


> I discuss Masonry with him until I find a road block, like he's an Atheist or whatever, then i explain why that road block prevents him from becoming a Mason, if I don't find a road block, then I cannot in clear conscience deny his attempt to join.


So, what if you know he is just a very difficult individual who would sow dissension in the lodge?


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## Bill Lins (Aug 1, 2015)

GKA said:


> While you are certainly entirled to your opinion brother, I would remind you that your position is not in keeping with Masonic purpose


To whom are you referring?


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## Bill Lins (Aug 1, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> So, what if you know he is just a very difficult individual who would sow dissension in the lodge?



As it is up to all of us to keep and promote peace and harmony in our Lodges, I think I would suggest to him that he would fit in better in some other organization. In addition to the "standard" qualifications, I take into consideration whether a candidate would be an asset, both to my Lodge and to Masonry overall. If I feel that a petitioner would not be such, I will not recommend him.


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## GKA (Aug 1, 2015)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> To whom are you referring?


I was replying to a post made by JJones which seems to have been removed


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## GKA (Aug 1, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> So, what if you know he is just a very difficult individual who would sow dissension in the lodge?


I think it is difficult to know exactly that anyone would sow dissension and still not be able to find a solid point with which to dismiss his candidacy.
as the guardians of our order, we have a serious responsibility to filter out those individuals whom are unworthy, on this point we both agree. however I for one do not want to be the person who prevented another from obtaining the light they seek just because we two did not have agreeable personalities


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## JJones (Aug 1, 2015)

GKA said:


> I was replying to a post made by JJones which seems to have been removed



I deleted it immediately after as I didn't feel I worded it in the best way.  Bill_Lins said almost the same thing much more elegantly than I.



GKA said:


> I think it is difficult to know exactly that anyone would sow dissension and still not be able to find a solid point with which to dismiss his candidacy.
> as the guardians of our order, we have a serious responsibility to filter out those individuals whom are unworthy, on this point we both agree. however I for one do not want to be the person who prevented another from obtaining the light they seek just because we two did not have agreeable personalities



It may not be an issue in larger lodges but I'm from a more rural area so my experiences are limited with smaller lodges.  It only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch and some personalities are just toxic, regardless of how much light they seek.  Other personalities aren't so bad but if they might conflict with already existing members of the lodge then my opinion is they should find light elsewhere.


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## GKA (Aug 1, 2015)

JJones said:


> I deleted it immediately after as I didn't feel I worded it in the best way.  Bill_Lins said almost the same thing much more elegantly than I.
> 
> 
> 
> It may not be an issue in larger lodges but I'm from a more rural area so my experiences are limited with smaller lodges.  It only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch and some personalities are just toxic, regardless of how much light they seek.  Other personalities aren't so bad but if they might conflict with already existing members of the lodge then my opinion is they should find light elsewhere.


I support your right to have the lodge that you desire


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## Glen Cook (Aug 2, 2015)

GKA said:


> I think it is difficult to know exactly that anyone would sow dissension and still not be able to find a solid point with which to dismiss his candidacy.
> as the guardians of our order, we have a serious responsibility to filter out those individuals whom are unworthy, on this point we both agree. however I for one do not want to be the person who prevented another from obtaining the light they seek just because we two did not have agreeable personalities


The issue wasn't whether our two personalities disagreed. I would not cast a negative vote on that basis.


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## hanzosbm (Aug 2, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> The issue wasn't whether our two personalities disagreed. I would not cast a negative vote on that basis.


I agree. Two non compatible personalities wouldn't be a reason to deny (in my opinion) but if their personality was such that it caused problems throughout, that's a different story.
We admit worthy men, not all men. I forget who said it, but I recall something about it being better to deny 10 good men than admit 1 bad one.


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## GKA (Aug 2, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> I agree. Two non compatible personalities wouldn't be a reason to deny (in my opinion) but if their personality was such that it caused problems throughout, that's a different story.
> We admit worthy men, not all men. I forget who said it, but I recall something about it being better to deny 10 good men than admit 1 bad one.


Please clarify, is your statement parallel to condemning ten innocent men rather than risk setting one guilty man free?


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## hanzosbm (Aug 3, 2015)

GKA said:


> Please clarify, is your statement parallel to condemning ten innocent men rather than risk setting one guilty man free?


No, it's not.


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## GKA (Aug 3, 2015)

So to deny a man a house on Earth is not the same thing as to deny him one eternal in the Heavens.


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## hanzosbm (Aug 3, 2015)

Neither of those are my place to decide. 

I am talking about the institution of Freemasonry, which is not a right, but a privilege.

"...and admits to it's privileges worthy men..."

The members of the lodge repeatedly put forth the question of whether he is worthy.  Not all men are.  Freemasonry is a science of degrees with it being necessary to understand an inculcate each before proceeding to the next.  That does not however mean that this progression begins at the door of the lodge.  Rather, it begins the day we are born (or perhaps sooner).  If a man has done a poor job to prepare himself thus far, I see no reason why he is to be passed on.


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## GKA (Aug 3, 2015)

I can agree with your position however, as I see it, there are two distinct criteria wherein a man may be rejected, or accepted in the case of being made a Mason on site,
The specific conditions such being a Felon etc. And the input or recommendation of a brother.
This places a large responsibility upon us and the decision to recommend or reject must not be taken lightly
How much better would the world be if we could exhibit the same tolerance to non Masons as we ought to our
 brothers
( yea, I know I'm gonna receive flack for this)


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## Cigarzan (Aug 3, 2015)

As often as rules, regulations, and policies change (and landmarks, ahem) I couldn't care less who joins the lodge. I'm out now. Hell, a lodge in Fort Worth initiated a blind guy. He, of course, immediately went through the chairs and is now a past master.  Nothing means anything anymore. Adios!


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## GKA (Aug 3, 2015)

Here is an example to make my point;
If there were a vote on this forum right now about my own candidacy for Masonry, there us no doubt in my mind that I would be rejected
However, if that vote were taken at my home lodge, the outcome would be different


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## JJones (Aug 3, 2015)

GKA said:


> Please clarify, is your statement parallel to condemning ten innocent men rather than risk setting one guilty man free?



That's quite a leap in comparison, is it not?


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## GKA (Aug 3, 2015)

Yes but again there is a point to it
We have made Members at our lodge who if rejected would have not continued their pursuit due to age and opportunity
Sometimes we must acknowledge that we may be that mans last hope


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## Glen Cook (Aug 3, 2015)

GKA said:


> So to deny a man a house on Earth is not the same thing as to deny him one eternal in the Heavens.


No, as I do not equate lodge with salvation and in my belief system, men do not decide the eternal question.


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## Glen Cook (Aug 3, 2015)

GKA said:


> Here is an example to make my point;
> If there were a vote on this forum right now about my own candidacy for Masonry, there us no doubt in my mind that I would be rejected
> However, if that vote were taken at my home lodge, the outcome would be different


People often behave differently when not hiding behind the cloak of Internet anonymity.


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## hanzosbm (Aug 3, 2015)

GKA said:


> Yes but again there is a point to it
> We have made Members at our lodge who if rejected would have not continued their pursuit due to age and opportunity
> Sometimes we must acknowledge that we may be that mans last hope


I'm sorry if this comes off as cold or callous, but if he has failed up to this point to properly prepare himself, I see no reason, regardless of what his last hope may be, that I should endanger the Craft for his sake.  Him facing the consequences of his (in)actions has absolutely no bearing on my determination as to whether or not he is worthy.  From the standpoint of character, every man has the exact same opportunities in life.  If he has squandered those opportunities, I see no need to reward his lack of preparation by advancing him regardless of whether or not he is out of time.


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## JJones (Aug 3, 2015)

Agreed.  We are supposed to take good men and make them better, it's not our mission to rehabilitate men because we feel we're their last hope.

Is helping people masonic? Absolutely, but that's the role of the individual, not the lodge.


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## GKA (Aug 3, 2015)

He who shows compassion shall receive it


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## dfreybur (Aug 3, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> So, what if you know he is just a very difficult individual who would sow dissension in the lodge?



The charges say to never recommend a man unless we think that he will reflect well upon Masonry.  Fortunately I don't remember any such men petitioning in the first place.  The ideal state to filter out such a man is in his own head when he fails to ask for a petition in the first place.


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> I'm sorry if this comes off as cold or callous, but if he has failed up to this point to properly prepare himself, I see no reason, regardless of what his last hope may be, that I should endanger the Craft for his sake.  Him facing the consequences of his (in)actions has absolutely no bearing on my determination as to whether or not he is worthy.  From the standpoint of character, every man has the exact same opportunities in life.  If he has squandered those opportunities, I see no need to reward his lack of preparation by advancing him regardless of whether or not he is out of time.



We can never know the challenges another must face, to deny a person on the basis of worthiness is judgmental to the extreme
How many times in our lives have we turned into a freind only after getting to know someone ?


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## hanzosbm (Aug 5, 2015)

GKA said:


> to deny a person on the basis of worthiness is judgmental to the extreme



We swear an oath to deny a person based on their worthiness.


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

Point of confusion on my part, sorry
I should have selected a less specific word
I think that we have a responsibility to pass every person who desires to become a Mason regardless of how much light he may receive or how much time he has left to receive it
The rules for denial, to me are specific
I have never denied a candidate except on very specific points
If you feel or think him unworthy, does it not seem even more important that you strive to discover the specifics of why he is unworthy?


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## hanzosbm (Aug 5, 2015)

Charity and the relief of those in dire and destitute circumstances are wonderful aspirations and virtues that I always try to uphold.  But that doesn't go as far as making a man a Mason.
Let me try this a different way.  Would you pass a brother could not make suitable proficiency and who had not properly prepared himself simply because he desired it?


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

hanzosbm said:


> Charity and the relief of those in dire and destitute circumstances are wonderful aspirations and virtues that I always try to uphold.  But that doesn't go as far as making a man a Mason.
> Let me try this a different way.  Would you pass a brother could not make suitable proficiency and who had not properly prepared himself simply because he desired it?


I would not, but that's a different situation, we are taught that we must make the effort to gain light, that is why even a candidate must seek out Masonry and ask to join.


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## hanzosbm (Aug 5, 2015)

Just because he asks does not mean he should be accepted.  There is a reason that we ask ourselves if he is worthy and well qualified as well as take a vote.  If simply seeking the Light was enough, neither of these would be necessary.


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

I totally agree with you point, I am just trying to show that the denial of a person should be a serious and difficult decision, unless he has specifics which give cause for denial


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## LAMason (Aug 5, 2015)

GKA said:


> We can never know the challenges another must face, to deny a person on the basis of worthiness is judgmental to the extreme
> How many times in our lives have we turned into a freind only after getting to know someone ?



Have you read your Grand Lodge Masonic Code?  California Masonic Code says:

*§804.230. APPLICATIONS.*

An application for the degrees or for affiliation shall be on the form approved by the Grand Master and provided by the Grand Secretary. An applicant must sign the completed application by signature or by a mark attested to by two members of the Lodge, if he is unable to write by reason of physical affliction. An applicant must be recommended by at least two members of the Lodge. *A recommender need not have previously known the applicant, as long as prior to signing the application he first makes a careful investigation to ascertain if the applicant is worthy. *Recommendation of an applicant is a personal pledge of Masonic honor to the Lodge that the applicant possesses the qualifications required. Any recommendation once given cannot be withdrawn after the application has been received by the Lodge. References need not be Masons or of the male gender. _[Source: Sections 19040 and 26090 of the 1991 California Masonic Code.]_

*§804.330. REPORT OF INVESTIGATING COMMITTEE.*

The report of each member of the Investigating Committee shall set forth in detail the facts ascertained respecting the applicant and that Committee member’s conclusion on the applicant’s qualifications. *If any member of the Committee reports unfavorable on the applicant or if a report demonstrates that the applicant is in any way not qualified or unworthy to be made a Mason, no ballot shall be taken on the applicant and the Master shall, upon receipt of such a report, declare the applicant rejected.* Such rejection shall be reported at the next Stated Meeting of the Lodge but none of the contents of any reports on the applicant shall be disclosed, other than the conclusions on the applicant’s qualifications.


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

I'm sorry, I don't see you point


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## MRichard (Aug 5, 2015)

GKA said:


> I'm sorry, I don't see you point



Just curious. Why do you restrict who can view your profile? I generally like to look and see what grand lodge or lodge someone belongs to.


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## GKA (Aug 5, 2015)

MRichard said:


> Just curious. Why do you restrict who can view your profile? I generally like to look and see what grand lodge or lodge someone belongs to.


I do that when I first join a site, as I do not know if I will be staying, I have changed it, you can view what you like.


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## MRichard (Aug 5, 2015)

GKA said:


> I do that when I first join a site, as I do not know if I will be staying, I have changed it, you can view what you like.



Thank you. I am satisfied.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 18, 2015)

MarkR said:


> What you described would be easy for me.  If they told me that they would have no intention of trying to follow Masonic rules, I'd reply "well, then, I guess you can't be a Mason."  I have told that to one young man who told me he could never call a Jew his brother.


This is exactly what my reply would be.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 18, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> So, what if you know he is just a very difficult individual who would sow dissension in the lodge?


If I knew this I could not possible aid him in joining. Peace and harmony in the lodge is paramount.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 18, 2015)

GKA said:


> I think that we have a responsibility to pass every person who desires to become a Mason regardless of how much light he may receive or how much time he has left to receive it


So you think that every man who request to join should be allowed in? If so then we could simply do away with an investigation of proposed members.


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## Bill Lins (Oct 18, 2015)

GKA said:


> to deny a person on the basis of worthiness is judgmental to the extreme


So be it.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 19, 2015)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> So be it.


Agreed!!!


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