# Are long form degree lectures worth it?



## crono782 (Nov 5, 2013)

As someone who just finished learning letter-perfect my first "long form" lecture (the EA long form, that is, including the monitorial sections), I was told by a couple members of the lodge that it would be best to not do the long form lecture at all because of the chance of boring/losing the attention of the members and the candidate. I agreed that the members might get bored, but it is equally possible that the candidate wants more out of his degree than expediency. -_^

I did actually ponder on this thought, however. ARE the long form lectures too much for the candidate to bear hearing after his floor work portion of his degree? I personally believe that the long form/monitorial parts contain excellent masonic information that is quite often glazed over or never heard again by a lot of these guys and is a disservice to not offer it especially given the trend that newer members seem to want MORE masonry from their masonry, but that is just my two cents.

Thoughts?


----------



## WBDavidSmith (Nov 5, 2013)

There is no way that anyone can remember everything they have experienced or heard in one night. I believe that the lectures are definitely worth the time. Yes there is a lot of information to absorb. To a new candidate that is what the night is about.
  We always tell the candidates after each degree they need to come back and see if the more they will catch more information every time they hear it.


My Freemasonry


----------



## poweredbylight (Nov 5, 2013)

By the time I was being given the lecture (for each degree), I was worn out. Only certain parts of each jumped out at me, and of course I did not retain much of that information on the first listen. With that being stated, I feel that it is important that we keep orally conducting it. The candidate/brother needs to hear it through, it is important. Further, brothers on the sidelines need to hear it - there are many masons who may not study regularly, and can learn something "new" from attending a degree. Finally, it shows the man going through the degree what we are willing to commit to, if orally given, to present the lecture. I feel that it is important that we do long-form everything, as long as it is possible. 

The only time I feel short form should be used is if you are doing multiple candidates in one night, as we all know long form for 3 brothers can be a doozy.


----------



## Brother JC (Nov 5, 2013)

I don't think NM even has a "short form" when it comes to the Degree Lectures. I've certainly never heard of one.


----------



## jmiluso (Nov 5, 2013)

I was at my lodges officers meeting last week and it came up at least in California lodges, the for the 1st and 2nd degrees giving the long or short return is an option the candidate can make for them self. But on the 3rd degree return it must be long form.

I for one believe the long form is better. I gave all long forms and I feel I would have not understood as much if I did the short form. Why go through the process of joining if you are going to do only half the work, at least that's how I feel.


My Freemasonry


----------



## Brother JC (Nov 5, 2013)

I don't think the proficiency return is the subject, but the lecture during the Degree. Or did I get this wrong?


----------



## crono782 (Nov 5, 2013)

trysquare said:


> I don't think NM even has a "short form" when it comes to the Degree Lectures. I've certainly never heard of one.



Basically in TX there are the parts of the lecture that are ritual and parts that are monitorial. Read in a linear fashion, the ritual and monitorial sections are interspersed in with each other. The "long form" would be the combination of both. The ritual parts are required and there is no long/short variation on them; it must all be given. The monitorial parts are optional and rarely given in my experience (this being what I would like to see done).



jmiluso said:


> the for the 1st and 2nd degrees giving the long or short return is an option the candidate can make for them self.



 Right, I am speaking of the long form degree LECTURE rather than the trial lecture/proficiency return. The concept you mention, I feel, is the same however.


----------



## jmiluso (Nov 5, 2013)

My apologies I read it wrong.


My Freemasonry


----------



## Brother_Steve (Nov 5, 2013)

The lecture and charge is the essence of what defines a Freemason.

The whole point of the lecture, in my mind, was to inspire the new brother to expand their mind and learn.

I can understand cutting corners but degree work is suffering enough. As an example, proficiency work was cut back to three pages from 7 on the EA exam in 2008. Ask a newly made NJ mason about the 4 points of entrance and they will /shrug and look at you funny.


----------



## SeattleMason0613 (Nov 5, 2013)

The EA lecture I sadly barley remember but I did catch allot more info from the FC lecture. I think they are very important and should remain the full version. You can always go back and discuss the lecture and study it more in depth at a later time. 


My Freemasonry


----------



## crono782 (Nov 5, 2013)

Right now, the norm is just the ritual parts without the monitorial sections. Most members never hear the monitorial parts given in the lecture. My plan is to give the full ritual + monitorial lecture for our upcoming EA hopefuls this month. I personally have never heard it given.


----------



## dfreybur (Nov 5, 2013)

poweredbylight said:


> By the time I was being given the lecture (for each degree), I was worn out.



As a candidate, by the time we reached the lectures I was past the point I could retain anything more.  I remember the brothers delivering my lectures but none of the content of the lectures from those 3 evenings.  I remember the lectures from degrees since then so it doesn't seem to matter whether the candidates hear the long or short version.

As an officer working to qualify for my chairs I learned the short form when there was one because it was hard enough to learn all of that material.  When all you've learned in the short form that's what you deliver when you're standing there in the east delivering a lecture to a live candidate.

As a sideliner I've heard the lectures often enough I like the long form better.  This is why I like degree teams and designated lecturers for degrees.

So is the long form worth it?  My answer is different for different situations.  Hearing a long form on occasion is certainly worth it to me.  But it has not been worth it enough for me to learn the long forms myself.  For myself I've read them.


----------



## dfreybur (Nov 5, 2013)

crono782 said:


> As someone who just finished learning letter-perfect my first "long form" lecture (the EA long form, that is, including the monitorial sections)...



A Texas specific answer - The lectures and degrees in Texas are abbreviated compared to the other ritual versions I have learned.  particularly in Texas the long form should be presented on occasion just so the brethren know there's more to it than the short form.  As the difference is monitorial reading the additional parts should be okay.


----------



## rhitland (Nov 5, 2013)

I say go for it crono.  The long form is certainly worth memorizing and given till committed to memory but in the long term not worth perpetually giving.  IMHO  The long form is beautiful though and certainly worth any masons time to memorize.


----------



## crono782 (Nov 5, 2013)

So basically do it, but not so often that the sideline gets tired of it. -_-


My Freemasonry


----------



## Bill Lins (Nov 6, 2013)

poweredbylight said:


> By the time I was being given the lecture (for each degree), I was worn out. Only certain parts of each jumped out at me, and of course I did not retain much of that information on the first listen.


Agreed. We claim that degrees are for the candidate but, by the time the lecture is given, most have reached the limit of what one can absorb in a single sitting. I feel that it would be much more beneficial to the candidate to wait a week or so after the degree and then present the lecture to him, preferably in a one-on-one manner, explaining the degree & the lessons contained therein. But that's just me.


----------



## amhdive (Nov 6, 2013)

I personally enjoyed the long form. What I recently purpose is an education session in lodge to help the candidate better connect with the degree. You are right you reach a saturation point but I wouldn't change a thing. 


My Freemasonry


----------



## tomasball (Nov 6, 2013)

poweredbylight said:


> By the time I was being given the lecture (for each degree), I was worn out. Only certain parts of each jumped out at me, and of course I did not retain much of that information on the first listen. With that being stated, I feel that it is important that we keep orally conducting it. The candidate/brother needs to hear it through, it is important. Further, brothers on the sidelines need to hear it - there are many masons who may not study regularly, and can learn something "new" from attending a degree. Finally, it shows the man going through the degree what we are willing to commit to, if orally given, to present the lecture. I feel that it is important that we do long-form everything, as long as it is possible.
> 
> The only time I feel short form should be used is if you are doing multiple candidates in one night, as we all know long form for 3 brothers can be a doozy.



If you are doing multiple candidates in one night, Texas allows you to give the lecture to them all at once.


----------



## otherstar (Nov 6, 2013)

I've given, and do give, the lectures in Texas. I've not bothered to learn the monitorial portions of the lectures, nor do I plan to. I've known only a few lectures who know those parts and give them. Once in awhile I think it is a good idea for someone to give the full form of the lecture (though I've NEVER known anyone who gives the full form of the FC lecture in Texas), but I don't think it should be regular occurrence. For myself, the night runs long enough when you start a degree at 7:30 (after dinner), and I need to be in bed by 10:30 so I can be up at 4:30 the next morning for work that the full form of the lecture can do more to breed ill-will from your lodge brothers by making the night go too long. Also, I tend to agree somewhat with the brother who taught me my work at Oak Forest Lodge 1398 in Houston who questioned whether one learns the long form for the good of the candidate (who won't remember it anyway), or for the ego of the one giving the lecturer. I want the experience to benefit the candidate the most and with what our lodge does after the degree, it would be way too much for the candidate.


----------



## crono782 (Nov 6, 2013)

Gotcha. I think I've decided not to give the long form lecture after all for our upcoming EAs and rather just be content that I know it and will continue to learn the long form FC and MM. It is true, the candidate likely wouldn't remember it (only hopefully be inspired by it). My main fear is probably what would come to pass, that is, giving the long form probably would do more to breed ill-will by members than would be enjoyable to hear... Definitely the sense I get from my lodge anyway.


----------



## Zack (Nov 6, 2013)

There are Brothers that have been sitting on the side lines for years and have never "heard" any of the lectures.
IMO, it is not all necessarily about the candidate.


----------



## JJones (Nov 6, 2013)

True but the degree nights are for the candidates first and foremost.  If you think long form is too much info then I understand.  I would say if you don't feel that way though then don't shortchange the candidate on the account if a vocal minority.


----------



## crono782 (Nov 6, 2013)

JJones said:


> True but the degree nights are for the candidates first and foremost.  If you think long form is too much info then I understand.  I would say if you don't feel that way though then don't shortchange the candidate on the account if a vocal minority.



I hear ya. It's a fine line between "is the long form good for them to hear or lost on them completely?" I think it's somewhere in the middle and depends on many factors.
Honestly, I feel like quite a bit of my ritual zeal has been deflated recently by a lot of poo-pooing at the thought of a better candidate experience vs expediency and convenience. And if the (more seasoned) vocal minority wants multiple short, sweet, and expedited degrees on the same night, then how can I argue?


----------



## Paul E. Wunsche (Nov 6, 2013)

My thought is that if you don't use it, you will lose it.  I think that it's great that you took the time to commit it to memory because not many know the long form.  I'm trying to remember the last time I heard one was many, many years ago.  Here's a thought, ask the Worshipful Master to have a called meeting opened on the E.A. Degree for the purpose of you giving the long form lecture and invite the area lodges to bring their E.A's and let everyone enjoy the lecture, perhaps this could be done quarterly so you don't get burned out and you don't burn the members out.


----------



## dfreybur (Nov 6, 2013)

otherstar said:


> (though I've NEVER known anyone who gives the full form of the FC lecture in Texas)



There a Resolution this year to allow the staircase lecture be delivered walking the way it's experienced by candidates in all the other jurisdictions I've seen second degrees.  It's still to be delivered by the WM instead of the SD but degree team pro tem replacements are common in all degree positions anyways.

If you're ever seen the staircase lecture delivering with advances between topics you likely ended up preferring it that way.  While I spaced out on the first and third degree lectures after my degrees, I managed to remain much from the staircase lecture because it was presented in bite sized pieces.  A paragraph at one topic.  An advance of a few steps.  A paragraph at the next topic.  Another advance of a few steps.


----------



## JJones (Nov 6, 2013)

> Honestly, I feel like quite a bit of my ritual zeal has been deflated recently by a lot of poo-pooing at the thought of a better candidate experience vs expediency and convenience. And if the (more seasoned) vocal minority wants multiple short, sweet, and expedited degrees on the same night, then how can I argue?



I've felt this way multiple times at my lodge as well but in the end it's something I'm passionate about.  Quality over quantity flies in the face of the culture of many lodges so it's an uphill battle but I think it's one that's well worth it.


----------



## Bill Lins (Nov 6, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> There a Resolution this year to allow the staircase lecture be delivered walking the way it's experienced by candidates in all the other jurisdictions I've seen second degrees.


If you are referring to GLoTX Resolution #16, if adopted as written, it would apply to the MM degree only, NOT the FC degree.


----------



## dfreybur (Nov 7, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> If you are referring to GLoTX Resolution #16, if adopted as written, it would apply to the MM degree only, NOT the FC degree.



So it is.  The Texas move of the staircase lecture from the SD advancing along the north to the WM standing in the east is one of those neat ritual details from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.  Interesting that a walking lecture would end up happening in a different degree if the lodge so chooses.

Something I'm puzzled about - I've never heard of any stage directions for any of the lectures other than for the staircase lecture presented by the SD in those jurisdictions that do their second degrees that way.  As such I believe walking around while giving one is not a change in ritual and thus doesn't need permission of this sort.  I get that permission needs to be forced when a decision has been issued about it like with Recommendation #2 which indirectly attacks CofR.  Has there ever been a decision against walking around during a lecture?  I only know of one brother who walks around while presently one lecture and he isn't in Texas.

A number of jurisdictions use the "Paul Revere" charge to the lodge during installation.  I heard it during a Texas installation recently so Texas is one of them.  One of my favorite installing officers walks around the lodge while reciting the Paul Revere charge.  He speaks to specific people as the lecture progresses.  It's a very effective delivery method.  No one has ever objected to his delivering that particular lecture like that.  He's in a different state so different rules and all that ...

Table Lodge presentations are not lectures.  It states that in the ritual booklets I've seen for Table Lodge.  A number of presenters do walk around while giving Table Lodge responses and discourses.  I'm one of the walking presenters.  The only time I've walked during a lecture recitation is for the staircase lecture as SD, though.


----------



## Zack (Nov 7, 2013)

I walk around the lodge with whomever is receiving the lecture in both the EA and MM lectures as well as the FC.  I find that it seems to keep the recipient more focused and myself as well.

Sometimes another lecturer and myself will split the MM lecture into 2 parts, just for the sake of doing something different.  Doing things a little differently seems to entertain the sideliners too.

Our lecture run from about 25 to 35 minutes long.  This is without the optional or monitorial parts of the lectures which are seldom included.


----------



## dfreybur (Nov 7, 2013)

Zack said:


> I walk around the lodge with whomever is receiving the lecture in both the EA and MM lectures as well as the FC.  I find that it seems to keep the recipient more focused and myself as well.



Nice!  Moving around definitely worked for me when I was a second degree candidate.  I retained a fair amount of the 3/5/7 material.  Then I stood facing the east and spaced out on the FC jewels and such.  Yet that lecture is my favorite once I learned it.  Most of it is moved to the long form in Texas so it's almost never presented here.



> Sometimes another lecturer and myself will split the MM lecture into 2 parts, just for the sake of doing something different.



Illinois splits the 1st and 3rd degree lectures up into different parts often given by different brothers.  I figure that was the intent.

To me the lectures are for the side liners and that means long form might for the side liners.  If the side liners like the long form then it's a good idea.  if they don't, occasional only.  But who are the lectures about?  I can view them as being about the lecturer.  The degree is always about the candidate, but to me that isn't about all of it.


----------



## Bill Lins (Nov 7, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> Has there ever been a decision against walking around during a lecture?  I only know of one brother who walks around while presently one lecture and he isn't in Texas.


By GL Law, the Committee on Work has total control over ritual, including floorwork. They have directed that all parts of all 3 lectures are to be given from the East. "Walking" lectures, charges, and the like are not allowed.


----------



## Brother JC (Nov 7, 2013)

Wow... I've never seen a Staircase lecture given without walking the "steps." Sounds incomplete.


----------



## Bill Lins (Nov 7, 2013)

In Texas work, the SD walks the staircase with the candidate near the end of the first section of the degree. The staircase is then explained during the lecture from the East.


----------



## Brother JC (Nov 7, 2013)

Ah. In NM, the SD explains the steps, then they walk them together, in three sections(3,5,7). The Wages and G are given in the East.


----------



## dfreybur (Nov 8, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> In Texas work, the SD walks the staircase with the candidate near the end of the first section of the degree. The staircase is then explained during the lecture from the East.



The first time I attended a Texas 2nd degree I sat there with my mouth hanging open.  They deleted that entire lecture?  Then the staircase lecture was delivered from the east.  Abbreviated compared to the versions I've learned but not deleted.  Then it finished and I expected the lecture to move on to the Master's part.  Nope.  Not there.  When I asked that part had been made Monitorial so it's in the long form that rarely gets recited.  Not deleted but moved.

Just another ritual variation jurisdiction to jurisdiction.  Note to self - Now that I've paid my dues and such I should purchase a Texas Monitor and whatever other books offered by the Gr Sec office.


----------



## dfreybur (Nov 8, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> By GL Law, the Committee on Work has total control over ritual, including floorwork. They have directed that all parts of all 3 lectures are to be given from the East. "Walking" lectures, charges, and the like are not allowed.



This is the first jurisdiction I've heard of them dictating lectures be delivered from the east but so few brothers do anything else it's likely just never come up in many jurisdictions.  The Committee gets to make such decisions.  We do our degrees according to their instruction (with our usual percentage of mistakes).  Agreeing with their decisions isn't something required of us but that's a different matter.  Being able to walk around during a lecture isn't something I would have ever bothered to inquire about.  Looks like the author of that Resolution feels otherwise.  Based on this discussion I like it but don't consider it a big deal one way or the other.


----------

