# Would you support a National Grand Lodge?



## MichianaMason45 (Dec 16, 2018)

With all the different jurisdictions in the US(51 GLs and PHA GLs) would you support a National Grand Lodge? With a true American Grand Master? It would allow us to raise our visibility on a national level. Or would that play into the conspiracy theorist hands? With membership on the decline, would it make sense to consolidate our efforts? Maybe even regional GLs made up of several states? Just an interesting thought, what’s your take?


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## Glen Cook (Dec 16, 2018)

51 GLs, but to the point, as a member of a national GL, and an officer in national Masonic groups, I would not recommend it. 

You will now have an additional layer of bureaucracy between you and the decision maker, with no guarantee the decision making will be any better.

There is a financial burden to participation at a national level which is not practical for some. Think of who can afford the costs to travel to campaign for office, and then to travel to national meetings.  This will exclude a large portion of the membership. 

You will have the added cost of the new national grand lodge. 

If you think you have politics now, you ain't seen nothing. 

There is the thought  that a national grand lodge will avoid policies found to be distasteful. I am not convinced that will be the case. There is the possibility such policies will be perpetuated on a national basis. Then, some states will withdraw, and we’ll back to where we started.


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## MichianaMason45 (Dec 16, 2018)

Couldn’t resist the 51 again? Lol


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## David612 (Dec 17, 2018)

What would be point? 
It’s a big change and I don’t see a valuable reason to change


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## Bill Lins (Dec 17, 2018)

Here's what the Law of the Grand Lodge of Texas has to say about the subject:

*Art. 17. General Grand Lodge.* _The Grand Lodge is opposed to the formation or establishment of a General or Supreme Grand Lodge for the United States of America, and forbids its officers and Grand Representatives to participate in any meeting where any such movement shall be ever considered._

As I took a solemn obligation to obey & uphold the Laws of the Grand Lodge of Texas, I'd have to decline.


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## LK600 (Dec 17, 2018)

I would not support the formation of a Grand Lodge of the United States.  It's difficult to be heard / make changes now... I couldn't imagine what that would be like that far removed.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 17, 2018)

A big NO here!


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## Winter (Dec 17, 2018)

With the formation of a national grand lodge we would more than likely still have the state level of organizational leaders for local governance. So in effect, the only thing we would likely accomplish is adding an additional layer of bureaucracy at the top of American Freemasonry with all of its attendant costs and headaches as leaders elected from one part of the country try to tell Brothers from another part of the country how to conduct themselves. How could that go wrong, right? Many Brothers today are more likely going the other direction as they wonder what benefit it actually is to have such a bloated Grand Lodge system when the work is, or should be, being done at the local Lodge level.


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## coachn (Dec 17, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> Would you support a National Grand Lodge?


NO!


MichianaMason45 said:


> With all the different jurisdictions in the US(51 GLs and PHA GLs) would you support a National Grand Lodge?


NO!


MichianaMason45 said:


> With a true American Grand Master?


Define "true" in contrast with "Grand Master".
See: https://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2016/01/a-brother-asks-true-master.html


MichianaMason45 said:


> It would allow us to raise our visibility on a national level.


No, it wouldn't.


MichianaMason45 said:


> Or would that play into the conspiracy theorist hands?


No, it wouldn't.


MichianaMason45 said:


> With membership on the decline, would it make sense to consolidate our efforts?


No, it wouldn't.


MichianaMason45 said:


> Maybe even regional GLs made up of several states?


NO!


MichianaMason45 said:


> Just an interesting thought, what’s your take?


Ditch the thought entirely and replace it with a concerted effort to establish a 50 LODGE MAXIMUM for any and all GLs in existence.[/QUOTE]


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## MichianaMason45 (Dec 17, 2018)

coachn said:


> NO!
> 
> NO!
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

50 lodges? That doesn’t sound very Grand.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 17, 2018)

I assume Coach means have one per state, not a PHA GL and a non-PHA GL.  I've been preaching that for four years. @coachn if I misunderstood you my apologies. Don't call me a red herring or ad hominid troglodyte lol


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## coachn (Dec 17, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> 50 lodges?


Yep.  50, and even that might be too many.


MichianaMason45 said:


> That doesn’t sound very Grand.


From whose perspective?  The self-proclaimed Premier Grand Lodge had only 4?


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## coachn (Dec 17, 2018)

CLewey44 said:


> I assume Coach means have one per state, not a PHA GL and a non-PHA GL.  I've been preaching that for four years. @coachn if I misunderstood you my apologies. Don't call me a red herring or ad hominid troglodyte lol


LOL!

Only 50 lodges per Grand Lodge.


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## MichianaMason45 (Dec 17, 2018)

From whose perspective?  The self-proclaimed Premier Grand Lodge had only 4?[/QUOTE]

Obviously mine.  And that Grand lodge ceased to exist in that small number a long time ago. This is about the future.


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## coachn (Dec 17, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> > From whose perspective?  The self-proclaimed Premier Grand Lodge had only 4?
> 
> 
> Obviously mine.


Yep.  Mine says to downsize the Grand Lodges.  It's a smarter move than creating yet another layer of insanity.


MichianaMason45 said:


> And that Grand lodge ceased to exist in that small number a long time ago.


And as a result, a continuous erosion of the local lodges ensued and further subjugation of our members to things that contribute nothing and costs plenty.


MichianaMason45 said:


> This is about the future.


Yes.  And the future requires smarter organizational structures, like downsizing.


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## Winter (Dec 17, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> With all the different jurisdictions in the US(51 GLs and PHA GLs) would you support a National Grand Lodge? With a true American Grand Master? It would allow us to raise our visibility on a national level. Or would that play into the conspiracy theorist hands? With membership on the decline, would it make sense to consolidate our efforts? Maybe even regional GLs made up of several states? Just an interesting thought, what’s your take?



The only arguments I see you putting forward for the formation of a national GL is that it will raise our visibility and would somehow alleviate the membership decline.  As far as raising our visibility, I feel it cheapens our Order to have billboards and radio / TV ads.  It makes us look like just another club on a recruiting drive.  I think our "visibility" is too great already.  Men who should be a part of us will come looking.  Which leads right into the declining membership.  You can find a dozen discussions here just in the last month arguing that point with many holding the same view that the decline is actually a good thing as we return back to a realistic number.

I doubt you are going to find many supporting the argument for the formation of a national GL unless there is a solid argument of how it will actually benefit us.


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## coachn (Dec 17, 2018)

Winter said:


> ...I doubt you are going to find many supporting the argument for the formation of a national GL unless there is a solid argument of how it will actually benefit us.


What he said!


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## MichianaMason45 (Dec 17, 2018)

*Soap box rant alert* Although I am new to freemasonry I do fall into two categories that not Everyone here does:

1) I’m new and came in cold(not having any friends or family as Masons) so I can share a unique experience about joining recently.

2) I’m in my early 30’s and I am apart of the age demographic Freemasonry will have to attractive and retain to stay viable(according to many long time Freemasons I’ve read or talked to about this).
I say that to say this:

I enjoy a good debate and love the exchange of ideas(thus the reason I made this thread) but the level of arrogance that seeems to radiate off of some of these replies here (coach N)is very disappointing. If this is a hot button issues in freemasonry please advise me as such.


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## Keith C (Dec 17, 2018)

No way!

The GL of PA would NEVER agree to that, as it would inevitably lead to the end of the original "Antient" ritual work.


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## Winter (Dec 17, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> I enjoy a good debate and love the exchange of ideas(thus the reason I made this thread) but the level of arrogance that seeems to radiate off of some of these replies here (coach N)is very disappointing. If this is a hot button issues in freemasonry please advise me as such.



Hot button? No. Because it is a non starter.  Nobody is proposing or backing the formation of a national GL.  It won't happen because that is not how Freemasonry in the United States operates.  If experienced Brothers like myself telling you why it is not feasible or desirable comes across as arrogance, I apologize.  That was not my intention.  But you really have not proposed the move in any way that would benefit the Order.  As a new Brother, I believe your time would be far better spent learning how Freemasonry in your Jurisdiction, and others, does operate to give yourself a better informed opinion on the subject.  Study Masonic history and jurisprudence, particularly how the jurisdictions we have today have formed over time and what their relationship to each other is.  That may help you better formulate an argument for against the subject.  And don't take any one Brother's opinion here as law or the end all be all of the discussion.  Freemasons and the various jurisdictions are diverse enough you will encounter some practice or laws that make you scratch your head.


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## coachn (Dec 17, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> *Soap box rant alert* Although I am new to freemasonry I do fall into two categories that not Everyone here does:
> 1) I’m new and came in cold(not having any friends or family as Masons) so I can share a unique experience about joining recently.
> 
> 2) I’m in my early 30’s and I am apart of the age demographic Freemasonry will have to attractive and retain to stay viable(according to many long time Freemasons I’ve read or talked to about this).


I was in the same boat 17 years ago.


MichianaMason45 said:


> I say that to say this:
> 
> I enjoy a good debate and love the exchange of ideas(thus the reason I made this thread) but the level of arrogance that seeems to radiate off of some of these replies here (coach N)is very disappointing.


LOL!  You shouldn't make appoints you can't handle.


MichianaMason45 said:


> If this is a hot button issues in freemasonry please advise me as such.


Take you best guess and then think again.


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## MichianaMason45 (Dec 17, 2018)

coachn said:


> I was in the same boat 17 years ago.- Freemasonry wasn’t in the decline it is in today and millilenials are totally different than the last few generations...
> 
> LOL!  You shouldn't make appoints you can't handle.
> 
> Take you best guess and then think again.


I’m glad you doubled down on seeming like a jerk. I just purposed a subject I thought would be interesting and I was  not informed you already spoke for everyone.  Have a great day.


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## MichianaMason45 (Dec 17, 2018)

Winter said:


> Hot button? No. Because it is a non starter.  Nobody is proposing or backing the formation of a national GL.  It won't happen because that is not how Freemasonry in the United States operates.  If experienced Brothers like myself telling you why it is not feasible or desirable comes across as arrogance, I apologize.  That was not my intention.  But you really have not proposed the move in any way that would benefit the Order.  As a new Brother, I believe your time would be far better spent learning how Freemasonry in your Jurisdiction, and others, does operate to give yourself a better informed opinion on the subject.  Study Masonic history and jurisprudence, particularly how the jurisdictions we have today have formed over time and what their relationship to each other is.  That may help you better formulate an argument for against the subject.  And don't take any one Brother's opinion here as law or the end all be all of the discussion.  Freemasons and the various jurisdictions are diverse enough you will encounter some practice or laws that make you scratch your head.


You are totally fine, I respect and thank you for your open minded reply. I’m
Not even for starting a National GL, I just enjoy spuring on healthy/interesting debate.


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## coachn (Dec 17, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> I’m glad you doubled down on seeming like a jerk. I just purposed a subject I thought would be interesting and I was  not informed you already spoke for everyone.  Have a great day.



When you don't want people to share their best thoughts, don't ask them to share them.
When you want to win friends and influence people, be your best self.
When you don't like what's shared, ad homonym responses are about the worst thing you can put forth.
When you want to leave an even worse impression, add sarcastic endings to already bad posts.
Welcome to the forum.  Read, Listen, Learn!


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 17, 2018)

Winter said:


> I doubt you are going to find many supporting the argument for the formation of a national GL unless there is a solid argument of how it will actually benefit us.


Precisely...and so far I have heard none.


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## David612 (Dec 17, 2018)

If it helps-here’s my perspective;
I too came in cold to the craft
I’m under 30 (just)
I’m not American 


This is just my 2c on it but...

I don’t care what GL does or says..

Well that’s not quite true, there are many great brothers working their butts off trying as best they know how to improve their jurisdiction as best they can but at a single lodge level these things aren’t generally felt- 
the “casual” mason, you know- the guy who attends lodge once maybe twice a month, has kids and works full time or more, he won’t see these things and to him they aren’t relevant,
His lodge matters to him, the drive he derives from seeing a word perfect charge and having the significance of that bit of ritual finally make sense is where he derives value or maybe he just enjoys the fellowship/beer but no amount of administrative restructuring will change this. 

I must say GL seems more like an appendant body-

Not to detract from the terrific work try do but they aren’t the answer to the crafts woes, in my opinion.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 17, 2018)

David612 said:


> If it helps-here’s my perspective;
> I too came in cold to the craft
> I’m under 30 (just)
> I’m not American
> ...


Indeed, a GL should not impact a quality lodge experience, and it was far removed from my Masonic activity until I started doing grandish things.


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## David612 (Dec 17, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Indeed, a GL should not impact a quality lodge experience, and it was far removed from my Masonic activity until I started doing grandish things.


I’m just not a grand fellow...
That said my view of the craft is limited to say the least.


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## LK600 (Dec 17, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> 2) I’m in my early 30’s and I am apart of the age demographic Freemasonry will have to attractive and retain to stay viable(according to many long time Freemasons I’ve read or talked to about this).
> I say that to say this:
> 
> I enjoy a good debate and love the exchange of ideas(thus the reason I made this thread) but the level of arrogance that seeems to radiate off of some of these replies here (coach N)is very disappointing. If this is a hot button issues in freemasonry please advise me as such.



I to am one who will bring up a topic (whether I agree with it or not) for the purpose of debate.  I have learned if I'm going to do that, I need to expect robust responses based on the topic's controversial status.  Also, whether I feel a comment is rude or not, that has no bearing on my response (always argue the idea and not the delivery).  Everyone has different writing styles and ways to express themselves and sometimes based on one's point of view, they may come across in a manner not intended (I have had the opportunity to meet Coachn in person at events and he is a great guy).  

Now, to address the idea of a centralized Grand Lodge encompassing all of the States... from a personal level, I would say this.  I've been a Mason for approx. 2 years.  I am learning the rules of my Grand Lodge (Digest).  I am learning the rules of my Lodge (By-Laws).  On top of those are whats considered "best practices" which is not necessarily in either the Digest or the By-Laws, but highly suggested.  Then, I am learning that beyond that... there are more subtle rules and do's and dont's that are part of none of the above, but will cause significant strife if not followed.  

     So... I ask myself, "LK... why would I want an additional layer of people I'd likely never meet nor have minimal involvement with forming additional policies and procedures of which I would be required to follow?"  My answer will always soundly be Hell No, respectfully.


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## coachn (Dec 17, 2018)

And, once he got to the argument room, not one, count them, not one insult.


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## dfreybur (Dec 18, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> 1) I’m new and came in cold(not having any friends or family as Masons) so I can share a unique experience about joining recently.



On the one hand, good ideas tend to come from newbies about as often as from oldbies. It's the new perspective.

On the other hand, obvious ideas that have previously been rejected come form newbies even more often than good ideas. Being newbies they don't have the history.

There are countries in the world that have both federal and provincial jurisdictions. Some work others do not. In every case the costly overhead is handled by reducing everything at one of the two overlapping levels. Germany, Brazil and Mexico have all experienced this process and until you've learned their history you're not in a discussion with a level playing field.

George Washington is reported to have said "He who governs least, governs best". He left us with a country that gradually escalates unity and also Masonic jurisdictions that gradually increase diversity. Both unity and diversity work in their own ways but they are in opposition.

In the Prince Hall branch of our families, a national grand lodge was already tried and it was an epic disaster. Read the history of PHA versus PHO to learn of this. Until the failure modes of that disaster are addressed and handled, reducing the strength of our diversity is a definite non-starter.

When a big change is proposed there needs to be a cost benefit analysis. The cost is an entire additional layer of bureaucracy. Is there an actual benefit? An idea that sounds good or is obvious does not automatically come with a well designed set of benefits. When newbies repeat the common suggestion of a national layer, this part is consistently missed.

Note well that unity is NOT a reason for an added layer of bureaucracy. We already have more unity than we need without that extra cost. In fact compared to the rest of the world in Masonry, we have insufficient diversity.

If you really do want to push for an old failed idea of high cost and low benefit, you very much need to learn the history and show a new cost benefit analysis.

You also need to address issues like the long conflict between state level grand lodges and the international level imperial shrine.

The problem with coming in from the cold is that gives you a lack of history. The obvious becomes a beacon of temptation for you. "We need to do the obvious!" "That was tried in the following six decades and four countries. Here are the failure modes." "Stop being a naysayer and let's do the obvious!" Please don't be that guy. You're already heading that way by calling people jerks for trying to teach you the history.


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## MichianaMason45 (Dec 18, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> On the one hand, good ideas tend to come from newbies about as often as from oldbies. It's the new perspective.
> 
> On the other hand, obvious ideas that have previously been rejected come form newbies even more often than good ideas. Being newbies they don't have the history.
> 
> ...



Thank you for this thoughtful reply. I do want to address the two comments defending the actions of Coach N(or condemning me for calling him a jerk). I should use stronger language(but I didn’t out of respect).  I am a grown man and I would not allow this man to talk down to me in person the way he does here. Everyone is allowed to set their own standards for how they will be treated and I will also demand mutual respect.  I have shown all due respect and it was not returned.  I simply wanted to have a fun/interesting conversation with my new brothers.  I knew me being new here and  him being well  established would lead to some defending him, I’m ok standing on my own. I have come across many people who defend people’s behavior that are knowledgeable or good at their job.  I came here(to this website) with the best of intentions. I Didn’t reply for 12-16 hours or so, even when I felt like I’m being talked down to.  I am willing to let it go as this thread has turned into something I never intended. In fact, if a moderator could lock this thread, as the OP I would like that(for whatever it’s worth).  My experience thus far in Masonry has been with brothers of my lodge and near by lodges(all of which have been positive). The internet doesn’t seem as friendly


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## LK600 (Dec 18, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> I do want to address the two comments defending the actions of Coach N



I do believe one of my comments was one of them.  To be clear, I don't need to defend anything other than trying to assist you out of a possible emotional misconception.  



MichianaMason45 said:


> I am a grown man and I would not allow this man to talk down to me in person the way he does here.


Allow has nothing to do with it.  You do not have authority to allow anyone to do or say anything.  Now, stepping away from a conversation would achieve exactly what I think you mean, especially as emotionally charged as you seem to have gotten from a post.   



MichianaMason45 said:


> I will also demand mutual respect.


See above statement.  Your response so far has been worse/just as bad as what you are accusing him of doing.  



MichianaMason45 said:


> I knew me being new here and him being well established would lead to some defending him, I’m ok standing on my own. I have come across many people who defend people’s behavior that are knowledgeable or good at their job.


If your standing alone, its because you are being passive aggressive to not only coachn, but also others who tried to explain his and your behavior.  That usually doesn't win popularity contests.  



MichianaMason45 said:


> I Didn’t reply for 12-16 hours or so, even when I felt like I’m being talked down to. I am willing to let it go as this thread has turned into something I never intended.



Let what go?  nobody attacked your honor.  You don't like how someone posted to you.  You "sound" like you don't like me because I took the time to explain and convey my experience(s) with coachn, which you appear to associate with  some kind of negative fanboy-ism and not even consider that one of us might have a perspective to offer you, who is brand new with no experience here.  You may be a great guy, its hard to tell from posts (Like I already stated earlier), and I really don't mean to be negative to you.  I hope you find a balance here.


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## coachn (Dec 18, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> Thank you for this thoughtful reply. I do want to address the two comments defending the actions of Coach N(or condemning me for calling him a jerk). I should use stronger language(but I didn’t out of respect).


Out of respect for you I shall not post the following: For the love of God, would someone PLEASE take the shovel away from this "grown man".  Being a grown man, you should realize the hole you are digging and put the shovel down on your own. 


MichianaMason45 said:


> I am a grown man and I would not allow this man to talk down to me in person the way he does here.


As others have posted and thoughtfully not posted, you're a grown man.  You should know by now that you don't have this power over others.


MichianaMason45 said:


> Everyone is allowed to set their own standards for how they will be treated and I will also demand mutual respect.


Good!  Show us how to be respectful toward you by letting us know when you are "feeling" talked down to and how so that you can enlighten us as to what you deem to be acceptable to you and your standards, rather than reacting with ad homonyms that tell the readers nothing more that that you feel offended.


MichianaMason45 said:


> I have shown all due respect and it was not returned.


WOW!  You have no clue as to how you started the manure mound flowing and fanned the fumes.  Here, let me point you in the general directions:

1) Couldn’t resist the 51 again? Lol
2) 50 lodges? That doesn’t sound very Grand.
3) I enjoy a good debate and love the exchange of ideas(thus the reason I made this thread) but the level of arrogance that seeems to radiate off of some of these replies here (coach N)is very disappointing.
4) I’m glad you doubled down on seeming like a jerk. I just purposed a subject I thought would be interesting and I was not informed you already spoke for everyone. Have a great day.​I provided to you EXACTLY what you were asking - _my thoughts_ and then, when you didn't like what I offered, you attacked rather than ask for more information as to why I responded as I did.



MichianaMason45 said:


> I simply wanted to have a fun/interesting conversation with my new brothers.


Yet, when people play along, have fun with you, you attacked rather than play along. 

You could become an awesome contributor if your learning curve was a bit steeper.  Brothers here can help you, but you need to tone down your perceived slights and demands and learn the characters in this play first.


MichianaMason45 said:


> I knew me being new here and  him being well  established would lead to some defending him, I’m ok standing on my own.


Or, it could very well be the character you're portraying currently demands the responses you're getting.


MichianaMason45 said:


> I have come across many people who defend people’s behavior that are knowledgeable or good at their job.


You're not alone.


MichianaMason45 said:


> I came here(to this website) with the best of intentions.


As do we all!


MichianaMason45 said:


> I Didn’t reply for 12-16 hours or so, even when I felt like I’m being talked down to.


That's a good habit to continue exhibiting into the future.


MichianaMason45 said:


> I am willing to let it go as this thread has turned into something I never intended.


Yes, a learning experience if you open yourself up to it.  All the Brothers here want you to succeed!  Let us support you in this by giving you are best thoughts on the matter.  Just be open to the play that comes with the information and have FUN!


MichianaMason45 said:


> In fact, if a moderator could lock this thread, as the OP I would like that(for whatever it’s worth).


You'd miss so much if that were to occur.


MichianaMason45 said:


> My experience thus far in Masonry has been with brothers of my lodge and near by lodges(all of which have been positive). The internet doesn’t seem as friendly


It's friendly, but you have to be open to all the characters friendship brings forth to you.  Let the Brothers here show you that it's not how you might be imagining it. 

We want you to become better. Let us help you do just that!


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## MichianaMason45 (Dec 18, 2018)

I most certainly have the authority to decide what treatment I will accept and if I don’t like it, I’ll call you out(which I did) Have you never stood up for yourself? You must not be Italian... lol I have thanked pretty much everyone who has responded to this post.  I am not emotionally charged, I just don’t take any crap and I can not over state how disappointed I’ve been with the Masons I’ve talked to online. I am a member of a few groups on Facebook, etc and others have posted that they are shocked at the disrespectful treatment they have seen/ recieved.  Glen cook (a member here and a PastGrand Master from what I understand) was told to “be careful” in a freemasonry Facebook group. Mind you most are new to Freemasonry(read Entered apprentice, which I myself am) and we are venturing online in search of fellowship and brotherly love and are finding people who think they know it all and aren’t willing to even consider the ideas of newly obligated brothers, simply because they are new.  It runs contrary to what I thought I a “worldwide brotherhood” would be like.  I’ll stick to my local brothers, ones who know/ respect me. I have been accused of being a idealist before... have a good day


I wrote the above before I read your inflammatory post. The things that I said that you claim are inflammatory are a joke. #1 was a joke to Glen because he corrected me about the same thing on Facebook and I saw it as him giving me a hard time in a fun way(which I’m ok with). The others are a direct response to your arrogance and passagressiveness. Do you not see putting “grown man”is disrespectful? Even if *you *believe your asssment of me is true? The hole I’m digging comments are inflammatory.  You strike me as the kind of guy who is very smart but doesn’t do well with the subtleties of interspersonal realationships.   You did have some encouging remarks about wanting me to succeed and for that I thank you. 
Have a nice day coach


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## Keith C (Dec 18, 2018)

David612 said:


> If it helps-here’s my perspective;
> I too came in cold to the craft
> I’m under 30 (just)
> I’m not American
> ...



I guess this all depends on your Grand Lodge and Grand Master.

Here in PA, our current RWGM has made several changes that impact every  Lodge in the Commonwealth.  Additionally the current line of Grand Officers are all on-board to keep the changes in place and progressively add others toward a shared vision for the future.  Some of the changes put in place last year:

1) Every Lodge must have a component of Masonic Education at every meeting.
2) Every Lodge must hold at least 2 meetings in the EA degree (The District Visitation and one other)
3) Every First Line Signer of a petition must attend the Masonic Education sessions with their candidate.
4) "Warden School" has been expanded in content and all JW & SW must attend and WMs are optional.
5) A new "Leadership Seminar" has been introduced for any interested Brethren
6) State wide "One Day Classes" have been eliminated. (It is still possible to do all 3 degrees in one day, with dispensation from the RWGM, but Candidates must actually participate, not sit and watch an exemplar.)

The actions of Grand Lodge and a proactive Grand Master can hove a profound effect of the experience in a Lodge, especially one that was not doing what they really should have, but could get by without since it was not codified.


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## Winter (Dec 18, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> I most certainly have the authority to decide what treatment I will accept and if I don’t like it, I’ll call you out(which I did) Have you never stood up for yourself? You must not be Italian... lol I have thanked pretty much everyone who has responded to this post.  I am not emotionally charged, I just don’t take any crap and I can not over state how disappointed I’ve been with the Masons I’ve talked to online. I am a member of a few groups on Facebook, etc and others have posted that they are shocked at the disrespectful treatment they have seen/ recieved.  Glen cook (a member here and a PastGrand Master from what I understand) was told to “be careful” in a freemasonry Facebook group. Mind you most are new to Freemasonry(read Entered apprentice, which I myself am) and we are venturing online in search of fellowship and brotherly love and are finding people who think they know it all and aren’t willing to even consider the ideas of newly obligated brothers, simply because they are new.  It runs contrary to what I thought I a “worldwide brotherhood” would be like.  I’ll stick to my local brothers, ones who know/ respect me. I have been accused of being a idealist before... have a good day
> I wrote the above before I read your inflammatory post. The things that I said that you claim are inflammatory are a joke. #1 was a joke to Glen because he corrected me about the same thing on Facebook and I saw it as him giving me a hard time in a fun way(which I’m ok with). The others are a direct response to your arrogance and passagressiveness. Do you not see putting “grown man”is disrespectful? Even if *you *believe your asssment of me is true? The hole I’m digging comments are inflammatory.  You strike me as the kind of guy who is very smart but doesn’t do well with the subtleties of interspersonal realationships.   You did have some encouging remarks about wanting me to succeed and for that I thank you.
> Have a nice day coach



You've had ample replies in this thread providing various viewpoints to allow you to debate the original question you posed.  But your only response has been to start a feud with Brother Nagy over his responses which you perceived as insulting.  Remember what you came here to do (Freemasonry, not the internet). Subdue your passions and improve yourself in Freemasonry.  If you are new to the online world of Masonic discussion there is a very important quote you need to internalize if you are not going to be constantly frustrated. "_Always assume positive intent._"  You are going to encounter Brothers with wildly different views and experience as well as different ways of communicating.  Some that may come across to you as less than cordial.  But you may want to modify your expectations a bit as you begin.  You are entering various online discussion forums where many well established Brothers come to discuss Masonic subjects.  And instead of starting at the beginning, you instead post a proposition that would radically alter the landscape of Masonic life in the Untied States without having done even the most cursory research on the topic.  And then bemoan that nobody takes you seriously when you you receive overwhelming negative response.



> Mind you most are new to Freemasonry(read Entered apprentice, which I myself am) and we are venturing online in search of fellowship and brotherly love and are finding people who think they know it all and aren’t willing to even consider the ideas of newly obligated brothers, simply because they are new.



Your idea was not considered because you are a new Apprentice.  Your idea was not considered because it was an uninformed position that you have not even tried to debate. Instead only complaining that you have been treated poorly and going so far as to insult a longstanding and well known Brother.  I want you to succeed here as well other online venues, Brother.  But to do that you will need to rethink how you post since we do not know you in person like your local Lodge Brothers and many nuances of personality just do not translate in forum posts.

1. The joke you made to Glen about the #51: Post in complete sentences and either reference the post you were replying to or actually insert the quote.  Otherwise, others will read it and take something else away from it with the potential for misunderstandings.

2. Remember that you don't know everything or have all the answers.  That's harder for some than others, especially for those of us that have been Masonic researchers for over 20 years.  But remember that we are all here to learn.

3. Spellcheck and grammar check your posts! lol It seems trivial, but many Brothers, myself included, feel it is hard to take an argument seriously when a poster doesn't even bother trying to use proper grammar.  The forum software does most of the work, use it.

4. Again, always assume positive intent.  I am reiterating this point because it is the easiest one to forget.  Just because someone disagrees with you or your ideas doesn't mean it is personal.  I fall into this trap sometimes myself.  You should see some of the heated arguments when we discuss Christian only Freemasonry or removing the Shrine as appendant body.  This thread has actually been very polite in comparison.

We want you to stay here and enjoy Masonic discussions and I hope you do.  But fixating on one poster who you feel has wronged you will just get you put on the ignore list by many.  I hope this constructive criticism has helped.


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## coachn (Dec 18, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> I most certainly have the authority to decide what treatment I will accept and if I don’t like it, I’ll call you out(which I did) Have you never stood up for yourself? You must not be Italian... lol I have thanked pretty much everyone who has responded to this post.  I am not emotionally charged, I just don’t take any crap and I can not over state how disappointed I’ve been with the Masons I’ve talked to online. I am a member of a few groups on Facebook, etc and others have posted that they are shocked at the disrespectful treatment they have seen/ recieved.  Glen cook (a member here and a PastGrand Master from what I understand) was told to “be careful” in a freemasonry Facebook group. Mind you most are new to Freemasonry(read Entered apprentice, which I myself am) and we are venturing online in search of fellowship and brotherly love and are finding people who think they know it all and aren’t willing to even consider the ideas of newly obligated brothers, simply because they are new.  It runs contrary to what I thought I a “worldwide brotherhood” would be like.  I’ll stick to my local brothers, ones who know/ respect me. I have been accused of being a idealist before... have a good day
> 
> I wrote the above before I read your inflammatory post. The things that I said that you claim are inflammatory are a joke. #1 was a joke to Glen because he corrected me about the same thing on Facebook and I saw it as him giving me a hard time in a fun way(which I’m ok with). The others are a direct response to your arrogance and passagressiveness. Do you not see putting “grown man”is disrespectful? Even if *you *believe your asssment of me is true? The hole I’m digging comments are inflammatory.  You strike me as the kind of guy who is very smart but doesn’t do well with the subtleties of interspersonal realationships.   You did have some encouging remarks about wanting me to succeed and for that I thank you.
> Have a nice day coach


Some points to perpend:
1) You might have the authority, but you certainly don't have the control.  Respect it harder to earn once you demand it.  Walls are difficult to get around once constructed.
2) You are emotionally charged and you don't realize it... even though you are being told by far too many and in far too many ways.  If you hear dog whistles, that is not the poster's problem.
3) My nationality? Seriously?!?!?  You talkin' to me?  Geez! You got marone! 
4) Has it occurred to you even a little that a "grown man" doesn't have to tell other "grown men" that he's a "grown man".  Even in the least?!?!
5) When enough people call you an idealist, you might want to ask yourself what messages you're sending for that to be coming your way and the impact it may be having upon others.
6) <chuckle> If you consider my posts inflammatory, you best fly carefully around the light with those flammable wings o' yours.
7) When you joke and expect others to know that you are joking without getting hostile toward you, why shouldn't we expect the same from you when we joke?  Double standards do not fly well here. You're exhibiting them more and more with every post.
8.) You appear to sense inklings of arrogance and passive-aggressiveness but not in yourself.  This is why the chamber of reflection was such an important part of the EA experience in earlier years.  You might want to look into this as well.
9) My assessments are pretty spot on after over 30 years of working with people in recovery and coaching those in denial.  Of course, your mileage may vary.  
10) The hole you're digging comments are spot on.  Yet you continue to dig rather than see what is being reflected back at you.  Perhaps you are too far down the hole to see or hear?
11) Perhaps the subtleties you say are lacking are me providing to you purposeful and strategic loving folly in the hopes you'll wake up and get that you're coming across like a bull in a china shop.  
12) You're welcome!  Please read, reflect and learn!  We really are taking the time to give you important, crucial and vital feedback that, from what you have written, is sorely needed in your life.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 18, 2018)

In correcting the number of GLs in the US I was not joking. I was politely correcting a repeated, if minor, mistake. I was unaware it was the same individual making the same factual error. I took your reply on the point as less than cordial but moved on until you decided to attribute to me the manner in which I meant it.

I don’t always agree with Br Nagy. I hope I have never characterised his comments in the manner you chose, and I would not engage in the name calling to which you’ve resorted. Had you done that in my lodge, I might well object to your advancement. Hopefully, that gets across to you how your behaviour is viewed. You could have asked for the facts supporting his views, or even boldly declaring them unsupported, rather than harshly  labelling them as you did. One might even suppose that using the term arrogance is an arrogance..

In coming into a new environment, whether it be as shore patrol walking into a bar fight or entering an online discussion (any resemblance between the two situations being merely a coincidence) it is always good to step back and get a lay of the land and let your eyes adjust to the light (pun intended).  In this forum, I am pleased to say, we are mostly nice folk and we can engage in discussion and even have stark disagreement without (repeated) name calling. As you accurately noted, FB is not so considerate. Please look at  your words. Did you not actually act in the same manner of which you rightly complain?

I’d also suggest that you drew attention away from your theme by beginning a discussion about the discussion. I won’t say that Br Nagy leaves traps, but he does allow the opportunity for posters to critically examine their position and, if they’ve paid attention, they will be aware of his predilection and the construct he uses.

I recommend we draw a line under the “discussion  about the discussion “ and return to our regularly scheduled programming.


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## goomba (Dec 18, 2018)

When I first became a Freemason I thought a national grand lodge would be a good idea.  Now after being a member of four different grand lodges (one of which I have strong emotions about) I would fear bad leadership could ruin the nation.  Whereas even if GL of X were to go dark other GL's next door could help charter lodges in the now vacant area.  Additionally there are deep rooted traditions in each of the grand lodges that could be lost.  Oh and lets not forget we do have many different "experiments" happening with the many grand lodges.

As to the 51st "grand lodge of state", most tend to forget the Grand Lodge of FAAM of the District of Columbia.  This happens to be my grand lodge and it is awesome!


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 18, 2018)

Winter said:


> But your only response has been to start a feud with Brother Nagy over his responses which you perceived as insulting.


Luckily for me coachn always agrees with me. (snicker snicker)


coachn said:


> When you joke and expect others to know that you are joking without getting hostile toward you, why shouldn't we expect the same from you when we joke? Double standards do not fly well here. You're exhibiting them more and more with every post.


Agreed.


Glen Cook said:


> I would not engage in the name calling to which you’ve resorted. Had you done that in my lodge, I might well object to your advancement.


Same here.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 18, 2018)

goomba said:


> When I first became a Freemason I thought a national grand lodge would be a good idea.  Now after being a member of four different grand lodges (one of which I have strong emotions about) I would fear bad leadership could ruin the nation.  Whereas even if GL of X were to go dark other GL's next door could help charter lodges in the now vacant area.  Additionally there are deep rooted traditions in each of the grand lodges that could be lost.  Oh and lets not forget we do have many different "experiments" happening with the many grand lodges.
> 
> As to the 51st "grand lodge of state", most tend to forget the Grand Lodge of FAAM of the District of Columbia.  This happens to be my grand lodge and it is awesome!


I was just having a discussion with one GM about another GM who also holds a national position. We both expressed our reservations about him being in the role, yet there he be, and now I am dealing with a decision he made without consultation.  Two GLs have withdrawn recognition from GL AR. Without giving an opinion as to whether they should have done, it appears there is at least some concern about leadership.  Indeed, in some of the national roles I fill, we can deal with unfortunate leadership choices for years. If someone were a national GM, what powers would he have?  How many masons could poor decision making affect?


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## goomba (Dec 18, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> I was just having a discussion with one GM about another GM who also holds a national position. We both expressed our reservations about him being in the role, yet there he be, and now I am dealing with a decision he made without consultation.  Two GLs have withdrawn recognition from GL AR. Without giving an opinion as to whether they should have done, it appears there is at least some concern about leadership.  Indeed, in some of the national roles I fill, we can deal with unfortunate leadership choices for years. If someone were a national GM, what powers would he have?  How many masons could poor decision making affect?




Exactly!


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 18, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Two GLs have withdrawn recognition from GL AR. Without giving an opinion as to whether they should have done, it appears there is at least some concern about leadership.


I always get concerned when I hear of one or more GLs withdrawing recognition from another. Where does it end? I would hate for the 51 lodges to end up in a hodge podge of recognized / unrecognized jurisdictions.


Glen Cook said:


> If someone were a national GM, what powers would he have? How many masons could poor decision making affect?


Exactly!


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## coachn (Dec 18, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> ...I don’t always agree with Br Nagy.


Yes you do!  


Glen Cook said:


> ...I won’t say that Br Nagy leaves traps, but he does allow the opportunity for posters to critically examine their position and, if they’ve paid attention, they will be aware of his predilection and the construct he uses...


Aww man!  Ya not suppos'd to share d' secrets!!!!!


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## Glen Cook (Dec 18, 2018)

coachn said:


> Yes you do!
> 
> ...


Shoot, son, I don’t even agree with myself half the time.


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## Brother JC (Dec 18, 2018)

Glossing over the arguments, my first question would be which ritual will your NGL be using? Because, as you mentioned, there are nearly one hundred GLs with varying ritual and I seriously doubt any of them will agree to change (as Bro Keith mentioned).


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## goomba (Dec 18, 2018)

Brother JC said:


> Glossing over the arguments, my first question would be which ritual will you NGL be using? Because, as you mentioned, there are nearly one hundred GLs with varying ritual and I seriously doubt any of them will agree to change (as Bro Keith mentioned).


They didn't agree at the Baltimore Convention. 

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## coachn (Dec 18, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Shoot, son, I don’t even agree with myself half the time.


LOL!


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## coachn (Dec 18, 2018)

Brother JC said:


> Glossing over the arguments, my first question would be which ritual will you NGL be using? Because, as you mentioned, there are nearly one hundred GLs with varying ritual and I seriously doubt any of them will agree to change (as Bro Keith mentioned).


Would not be a problem if it adopts the policies regarding ritual that the GLS uses.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 18, 2018)

coachn said:


> Would not be a problem if it adopts the policies regarding ritual that the GLS uses.


And UGLE.


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## coachn (Dec 18, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> And UGLE.


Even Better!


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## MichianaMason45 (Dec 18, 2018)

I am just going to make a few final remarks.  I am not for or against a National Grand Lodge. I simply was hoping to pose a question and enjoy reading the informed responses. I have never in my life seen the level of knit picking as displayed here. If I was submitting an academic research paper, then knit pick grammar. But, I am writing from my cell phone on a informal discussion board. Honestly, I’m done. You would object to me advancing? How about you object to talking down to people?  I may of used (extremely mild) insults but the treatment of I received because no one likes the idea of a United Grand Lodge is unfair. I truly believe some of these replies will turn people off to posting on the site.


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## coachn (Dec 18, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> I am just going to make a few final remarks.  I am not for or against a National Grand Lodge. I simply was hoping to pose a question and enjoy reading the informed responses. I have never in my life seen the level of knit picking as displayed here. If I was submitting an academic research paper, then knit pick grammar. But, I am writing from my cell phone on a informal discussion board. Honestly, I’m done. You would object to me advancing? How about you object to talking down to people?  I may of used (extremely mild) insults but the treatment of I received because no one likes the idea of a United Grand Lodge is unfair. I truly believe some of these replies will turn people off to posting on the site.


Good lord man, let it go. The bus left the station an hour ago.


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## Winter (Dec 18, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> I am just going to make a few final remarks.  I am not for or against a National Grand Lodge. I simply was hoping to pose a question and enjoy reading the informed responses. I have never in my life seen the level of knit picking as displayed here. If I was submitting an academic research paper, then knit pick grammar. But, I am writing from my cell phone on a informal discussion board. Honestly, I’m done. You would object to me advancing? How about you object to talking down to people?  I may of used (extremely mild) insults but the treatment of I received because no one likes the idea of a United Grand Lodge is unfair. I truly believe some of these replies will turn people off to posting on the site.



Numerous Brothers in this thread have behaved admirably as we have attempted to help you better find your place here but all you seem willing to see is personal attacks.  I hope you find what you are looking for because it is obviously not here.  Safe travels.


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## mrpierce17 (Dec 18, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> With all the different jurisdictions in the US(51 GLs and PHA GLs) would you support a National Grand Lodge? With a true American Grand Master? It would allow us to raise our visibility on a national level. Or would that play into the conspiracy theorist hands? With membership on the decline, would it make sense to consolidate our efforts? Maybe even regional GLs made up of several states? Just an interesting thought, what’s your take?



Already been tried in Prince Hall masonry and the aftermath was not good for the order a lot of good brothers found themselves on the wrong side of regularly and recognition 


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Matt L (Dec 18, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> 51 GLs, but to the point, as a member of a national GL, and an officer in national Masonic groups, I would not recommend it.
> 
> You will now have an additional layer of bureaucracy between you and the decision maker, with no guarantee the decision making will be any better.
> 
> ...



Nailed it!!!


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## Glen Cook (Dec 19, 2018)

coachn said:


> Good lord man, let it go. The bus left the station an hour ago.


Well, that all worked out well, don’t you think?


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## David612 (Dec 19, 2018)

Hey look!
A newcomer, let’s alienate them.
A fun little stereotypical microcosm of masonry itself really.


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## Winter (Dec 19, 2018)

David612 said:


> Hey look!
> A newcomer, let’s alienate them.
> A fun little stereotypical microcosm of masonry itself really.



Did you even read the whole thread? The OP chose to focus on one person's replies and how they felt they were insulting.  While there were three pages of Brothers trying to actually discuss the topic he began as well as providing useful advice.  This one is on him.


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## coachn (Dec 19, 2018)

David612 said:


> Hey look!
> A newcomer, let’s alienate them.
> A fun little stereotypical microcosm of masonry itself really.


I disagree.

Most all who come to this forum fit in very well.  They don't whine - assume - project - accuse - complain. They take the time to learn & ask questions, ask more questions when what they ask has unexpected responses and contribute well to the harmony and light this forum thrives upon.

Every once in a while someone shows up and portrays all the graces of bull elephants in musth.

Talking things out most of these times works and brings these characters into both harmony and contribution.

However, occasionally we run into squeaky wheels who can't hear anyone over the sound of their own squeal!  That's when forum lubricant needs to be applied liberally and bluntly.


Winter said:


> Did you even read the whole thread? The OP chose to focus on one person's replies and how they felt they were insulting.  While there were three pages of Brothers trying to actually discuss the topic he began as well as providing useful advice.  This one is on him.


I agree!


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## CLewey44 (Dec 19, 2018)

coachn said:


> That's when forum lubricant need to be applied liberally and bluntly.



This line is cracking me up for so many reasons....


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## LK600 (Dec 19, 2018)

David612 said:


> Hey look!
> A newcomer, let’s alienate them.
> A fun little stereotypical microcosm of masonry itself really.


  Multiple pages with multiple posts (on the conflict) and not a single one did he even consider as valuable (except his own).  There's a word for that.   In my experience things tend to not go well when someone starts using words like demand and allow (let alone name calling).


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## dfreybur (Dec 19, 2018)

MichianaMason45 said:


> Honestly, I’m done.



Unfortunately so am I. You make it personal and ignore the topic. Adding you to my ignore list.


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## dfreybur (Dec 19, 2018)

Warrior1256 said:


> I always get concerned when I hear of one or more GLs withdrawing recognition from another. Where does it end?



Unfortunately it's the only tool that GLs have to force discipline on other GLs. Of course this is probably the single best point there is in favor of a national GL that could force discipline. The issue of a national GL has far more points to the negative, but it definitely does have some points to the positive.


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## coachn (Dec 19, 2018)

CLewey44 said:


> This line is cracking me up for so many reasons....


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 19, 2018)

Yes, absolutely would support. If there was a central U.S. Grand Lodge we might have been able to avoid the mess created by a few bone heads here in Arkansas. For decades Masonic law was misinterpreted and unfairly used to punish people who did nothing to deserve such punishments. We need a centralized, standardized set of Masonic laws for all of America.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 19, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> The issue of a national GL has far more points to the negative, but it definitely does have some points to the positive.


Agreed.


Rifleman1776 said:


> Yes, absolutely would support. If there was a central U.S. Grand Lodge we might have been able to avoid the mess created by a few bone heads here in Arkansas. For decades Masonic law was misinterpreted and unfairly used to punish people who did nothing to deserve such punishments. We need a centralized, standardized set of Masonic laws for all of America.


From what I have read I can certainly understand why you feel this way considering what you Brothers in Arkansas have been put through for a number of years.


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## coachn (Dec 19, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Yes, absolutely would support. If there was a central U.S. Grand Lodge we might have been able to avoid the mess created by a few bone heads here in Arkansas. For decades Masonic law was misinterpreted and unfairly used to punish people who did nothing to deserve such punishments. We need a centralized, standardized set of Masonic laws for all of America.


The challenge is avoiding the Peter Principle by elevating those very same boneheads into national power. 

Better to have other GL negate and dismiss the unwarranted damage of another GL toward its members by considering a GLs unwarranted unfair actions and enabling membership to those who were unfairly treated. This done to the approval of at least two other GLs when such actions are warranted.


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## Winter (Dec 19, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Yes, absolutely would support. If there was a central U.S. Grand Lodge we might have been able to avoid the mess created by a few bone heads here in Arkansas. For decades Masonic law was misinterpreted and unfairly used to punish people who did nothing to deserve such punishments. We need a centralized, standardized set of Masonic laws for all of America.



Firstly, I can think of no endeavor, Masonic or otherwise, which benefits from adding even more layers of bureaucracy to it. But more importantly, what if the ridiculous goings on in the GL of Arkansas were to happen on a national scale?  The same Brothers in power there who have been abusing their power and behaving in a generally reprehensible manner are likely the same pool that would vie for power in a national grand lodge.  A decentralized system of Masonic government means that surrounding grand lodges can bring sanctions to bear on a rogue jurisdiction that is conducting itself in a manner that is not in keeping with our values.


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## David612 (Dec 19, 2018)

Winter said:


> Did you even read the whole thread? The OP chose to focus on one person's replies and how they felt they were insulting.  While there were three pages of Brothers trying to actually discuss the topic he began as well as providing useful advice.  This one is on him.



I didn’t say you lot are wrong-
It’s a very specific type that fits in here and I thought it would end in tears when he called coach a Jerk-
Still it may have been just a bad start based on the misunderstanding that he was advocating for a united grand lodge of ‘Murca, assuming his credentials Masonic check out I personally would have preferred to see the whole thing dropped as no one has gained from this.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 19, 2018)

Winter said:


> Firstly, I can think of no endeavor, Masonic or otherwise, which benefits from adding even more layers of bureaucracy to it. But more importantly, what if the ridiculous goings on in the GL of Arkansas were to happen on a national scale?  The same Brothers in power there who have been abusing their power and behaving in a generally reprehensible manner are likely the same pool that would vie for power in a national grand lodge.  A decentralized system of Masonic government means that surrounding grand lodges can bring sanctions to bear on a rogue jurisdiction that is conducting itself in a manner that is not in keeping with our values.


And seeing the errors perpetuated on a national scale is one of my concerns, having already seen it in appendant bodies.


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## David612 (Dec 19, 2018)

Imagine the cash injection from moving on all those GL buildings, some redundant paid staff and other odds and ends-
It financially could be beneficial but for the craft overall I think it would be a big ol flop.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 19, 2018)

David612 said:


> Imagine the cash injection from moving on all those GL buildings, some redundant paid staff and other odds and ends-
> It financially could be beneficial but for the craft overall I think it would be a big ol flop.


I _suspect_ they would simply become provincial GL buildings and all the staff would remain.


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## David612 (Dec 19, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> I _suspect_ they would simply become provincial GL buildings and all the staff would remain.


I suspect you would be right.
Good thing we have all that spare cash.


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## LK600 (Dec 19, 2018)

David612 said:


> Still it may have been just a bad start based on the misunderstanding



I suspect that is exactly what took place.



David612 said:


> I personally would have preferred to see the whole thing dropped as no one has gained from this.



Granted.  Whats the saying... The road to Hell is paved with good intentions?


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## coachn (Dec 19, 2018)

David612 said:


> I suspect you would be right.
> Good thing we have all that spare cash.


Not to mention all that treasure we've been hoarding and passing down from one generation to the next.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 19, 2018)

coachn said:


> Not to mention all that treasure we've been hoarding and passing down from one generation to the next.


Shush now. If everyone knows we have money, then we can’t  spend endless time frittering away our lives on inconsequences instead of practicing Freemasonry.


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## Brother JC (Dec 19, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> And UGLE.



Bwahaha! Even more convoluted!


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 20, 2018)

Winter said:


> Firstly, I can think of no endeavor, Masonic or otherwise, which benefits from adding even more layers of bureaucracy to it. But more importantly, what if the ridiculous goings on in the GL of Arkansas were to happen on a national scale?  The same Brothers in power there who have been abusing their power and behaving in a generally reprehensible manner are likely the same pool that would vie for power in a national grand lodge.  A decentralized system of Masonic government means that surrounding grand lodges can bring sanctions to bear on a rogue jurisdiction that is conducting itself in a manner that is not in keeping with our values.



Winter, I understand your reasoning and appreciate your courteous and well thought out reply. However, the situation in Arkansas is unique. We are a small state, population wise. The power mongers in Masonry, as I understand it, all live in or near Little Rock and see each other in person frequently. From my home, near the Missouri border, it is a 3 1/2 hour drive to GL. Not likely, I, and many others near state lines, are going to meet for coffee on a daily basis with the close-minded central bunch. A U.S. GL would have a more geographically diverse bunch and such influences as we have in Arkansas would be highly unlikely.  BTW, tonight my Lodge in Missouri (Robert Burns 496) will be hosting the Missouri WGM, the Arkansas WGM and the WGM of Missouri Prince Hall. It  will be an historic gathering, especially notable since our Lodge is small and rural. It is my understanding the current Arkansas WGM is attempting to heal the hurts caused in recent years over the rift with Shrine. I look forward to meeting him and hope he speaks to this issue.


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## Winter (Dec 20, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Winter, I understand your reasoning and appreciate your courteous and well thought out reply. However, the situation in Arkansas is unique. We are a small state, population wise. The power mongers in Masonry, as I understand it, all live in or near Little Rock and see each other in person frequently. From my home, near the Missouri border, it is a 3 1/2 hour drive to GL. Not likely, I, and many others near state lines, are going to meet for coffee on a daily basis with the close-minded central bunch. A U.S. GL would have a more geographically diverse bunch and such influences as we have in Arkansas would be highly unlikely.  BTW, tonight my Lodge in Missouri (Robert Burns 496) will be hosting the Missouri WGM, the Arkansas WGM and the WGM of Missouri Prince Hall. It  will be an historic gathering, especially notable since our Lodge is small and rural. It is my understanding the current Arkansas WGM is attempting to heal the hurts caused in recent years over the rift with Shrine. I look forward to meeting him and hope he speaks to this issue.



I don't think your situation is all that unique actually.  The Brothers that inevitably gravitate to the positions of power are usually from the larger urban lodges instead of the small rural ones.  The four lodges that formed the first grand lodge were in London, not Nob End in South Lancashire.  Urban centers are always the ones that end up imposing their will on the rural ones.

I am glad to hear the new MWGM there is trying to make things better.  Though as far as I am concerned, I will be happier when the Shrine is a separate organization and no longer part of Freemasonry.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 21, 2018)

Winter said:


> Though as far as I am concerned, I will be happier when the Shrine is a separate organization and no longer part of Freemasonry.


Brother Winter, I'm not a member of the Shrine but this comment caught my interest. Could you elaborate?


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## Winter (Dec 21, 2018)

Warrior1256 said:


> Brother Winter, I'm not a member of the Shrine but this comment caught my interest. Could you elaborate?



The Shrine is an excellent organization that does amazing work helping thousands of children.  But I don't believe that Freemasonry actually benefits from that association.  A few of my reasons for a severing ties are:

The Shrine has zero connection to emblematic Freemasonry and does not build on a Master Mason's education like the York and Scottish Rites do. In fact, when membership numbers were flagging, the Shrine removed the requirement to join either York or Scottish Rites, proving it was only interested in bolstering its own numbers and not supporting Freemasonry. 
It treats the Blue Lodges as its recruiting ground, putting petitions into new Brother's hands almost before the degree is finished.  New Brothers are encouraged to get through the degrees as soon as they can so they can get to the fun of the Shrine.
As the most public branch of Freemasonry it does absolutely nothing to promote Freemasonry.  Shrine promotional material is everywhere.  Have you ever seen a square and compass on any of it?
The Shrine itself voted a few years ago to sever ties, and even though the vote failed, it wasn't by much.
Basically, the Shrine has nothing to do with Freemasonry except that its membership is composed of Freemasons.  It steals the time, energy, and dollars that would be better spent in the Craft lodges.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 21, 2018)

Winter said:


> The Shrine is an excellent organization that does amazing work helping thousands of children. But I don't believe that Freemasonry actually benefits from that association. A few of my reasons for a severing ties are:
> 
> The Shrine has zero connection to emblematic Freemasonry and does not build on a Master Mason's education like the York and Scottish Rites do. In fact, when membership numbers were flagging, the Shrine removed the requirement to join either York or Scottish Rites, proving it was only interested in bolstering its own numbers and not supporting Freemasonry.
> It treats the Blue Lodges as its recruiting ground, putting petitions into new Brother's hands almost before the degree is finished. New Brothers are encouraged to get through the degrees as soon as they can so they can get to the fun of the Shrine.
> ...


You certainly make some good points here. IMHO points that deserve pondering, in fact.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 21, 2018)

Winter said:


> The Shrine is an excellent organization that does amazing work helping thousands of children.  But I don't believe that Freemasonry actually benefits from that association.  A few of my reasons for a severing ties are:
> 
> The Shrine has zero connection to emblematic Freemasonry and does not build on a Master Mason's education like the York and Scottish Rites do. In fact, when membership numbers were flagging, the Shrine removed the requirement to join either York or Scottish Rites, proving it was only interested in bolstering its own numbers and not supporting Freemasonry.
> It treats the Blue Lodges as its recruiting ground, putting petitions into new Brother's hands almost before the degree is finished.  New Brothers are encouraged to get through the degrees as soon as they can so they can get to the fun of the Shrine.
> ...


Well, I’ve never understood how KT fits with Masonry either, or National Sojourners or Heroes of ‘76.  

Yes, I have seen S&C on Shrine promotional material.  

I for one have no issue in bringing people in who wish to be Shriners. 

I’ve been at Imperial since 1998. I do not recollect a close vote on removing the prerequisite. To which year are you referring?


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## Winter (Dec 21, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Well, I’ve never understood how KT fits with Masonry either, or National Sojourners or Heroes of ‘76.



I am a proponent for all Appendant Bodies being pushed to stand on their own as separate organizations.  Craft Masonry should be the Craft Lodges.



Glen Cook said:


> Yes, I have seen S&C on Shrine promotional material.



Really? Because I look whenever I see a Shrine bumper sticker or commercial or such and I don't see them.  Even on the Shrine International site they proclaim that they are not a part of Freemasonry: 



> Shriners International is a spin-off from Freemasonry,





> When Shriners International was first founded in 1872, the organization built on the principles that guided Freemasonry, while adding an element of fun and ultimately, philanthropy, that set Shriners International apart.





> The two organizations are also structured similarly:



Not a single statement that they are part of the Masonic family.



Glen Cook said:


> I for one have no issue in bringing people in who wish to be Shriners.



Neither do I, but the issue I have is when the Shrine recruits members and make sure they know they only have to pay lip service to Freemasonry to become a Shriner and that the degrees are just a formality to get through so they can get their fez.



Glen Cook said:


> I’ve been at Imperial since 1998. I do not recollect a close vote on removing the prerequisite. To which year are you referring?



It had to be maybe a decade ago?  I remember there was a big hullabaloo over it.  Maybe it is a local vote I am remembering or even a failed proposal that didn't make it to a vote.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 21, 2018)

Winter said:


> I am a proponent for all Appendant Bodies being pushed to stand on their own as separate organizations.  Craft Masonry should be the Craft Lodges.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.shrinersinternational.org/Shriners/MasonShriners/Masons

Even if they never return to the blue lodge, they are associating with men of faith who are willing to take obligations to one another.  That’s a good thing, I think.


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 21, 2018)

Winter said:


> I don't think your situation is all that unique actually.  The Brothers that inevitably gravitate to the positions of power are usually from the larger urban lodges instead of the small rural ones.  The four lodges that formed the first grand lodge were in London, not Nob End in South Lancashire.  Urban centers are always the ones that end up imposing their will on the rural ones.
> 
> I am glad to hear the new MWGM there is trying to make things better.  Though as far as I am concerned, I will be happier when the Shrine is a separate organization and no longer part of Freemasonry.




This thread may be going slightly astray of the original question but we seem to have drifted there already. I speak as an individual, not a representative of any particular lodge or group of Masons or Shriners.
Last night, at my small rural lodge in Missouri, was a historic gathering. At least four states were represented with Grand officers and/or past Grand officers. The WGMs of Arkansas and Missouri were present and spoke. The majority of the event was lead from the east by a past WGM  of Kentucky. Since the work of several states was used this sometimes caused a few laughs. No problem, the good Masons took it all in stride and we came together as Masons should. The very large group may have been a record for this Lodge. Extra chairs had to be put out and the food before hand was excellent and plentiful. Highlights of the evening were when the WGMs of Arkansas and Missouri spoke and brought us up to date on several issue of interest to us all. First, the Arkansas WGM said he has introduced a resolution that would reinstate the Shrine in Arkansas to it's previous arrangement before "the mess" began. He stated, much as I commented on yesterday, that the problem was heavily influenced by a small group of men who meet almost daily at the offices of the GL in Little Rock and that they "live in their own small bubble" without awareness of what his happening throughout the the state. This resolution will be voted on Feb. 7 next year. Hope it passes. The Missouri WGM apologized that the WGM of Missouri Prince Hall was not able to be present. He said, although Missouri has one of the best relationships with PH Masonry in the country the issue, unfortunately, remains somewhat complicated. It seems not all PH Lodges recognize each other as being regular, or genuine, Masonic lodges. There is only one that is recognized by Missouri AF&AM. Efforts are being made at the moment to unscramble this confusion and make us all one in Masonry. It was an historic evening and I, personally, appreciate and recognize the great work put into organizing this event by our current Lodge WM. He epitomizes the Masonic goal of "making good men better". I am proud to know him as a Masonic Brother and friend.


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## Winter (Dec 21, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> https://www.shrinersinternational.org/Shriners/MasonShriners/Masons
> 
> Even if they never return to the blue lodge, they are associating with men of faith who are willing to take obligations to one another.  That’s a good thing, I think.



Except that it is not a good thing.  If a person wants to be a Shriner, then let them be a Shriner.  But encouraging Brothers to only pay their dues for no other reason than to maintain their Shrine membership is more harmful than good.  If they have nothing to do with their Craft Lodge other than to pay their annual dues then what are they actually contributing? Again, nothing against the Shrine itself, only it's requirement that members be a Mason.


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## Glen Cook (Dec 21, 2018)

Winter said:


> Except that it is not a good thing.  If a person wants to be a Shriner, then let them be a Shriner.  But encouraging Brothers to only pay their dues for no other reason than to maintain their Shrine membership is more harmful than good.  If they have nothing to do with their Craft Lodge other than to pay their annual dues then what are they actually contributing? Again, nothing against the Shrine itself, only it's requirement that members be a Mason.


Ah, well, we must disagree on this issue. I’ll look forward to an area of agreement on another discussion!


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 21, 2018)

Winter said:


> Except that it is not a good thing. If a person wants to be a Shriner, then let them be a Shriner. But encouraging Brothers to only pay their dues for no other reason than to maintain their Shrine membership is more harmful than good. If they have nothing to do with their Craft Lodge other than to pay their annual dues then what are they actually contributing? Again, nothing against the Shrine itself, only it's requirement that members be a Mason.





Glen Cook said:


> Ah, well, we must disagree on this issue. I’ll look forward to an area of agreement on another discussion!


Two good Brothers....disagreeing without being disagreeable. Well done gentlemen!


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 21, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> The majority of the event was lead from the east by a past WGM of Kentucky.


One of my guys, wish I could have been there.


Rifleman1776 said:


> This resolution will be voted on Feb. 7 next year. Hope it passes


Hope that things get straightened out for you good Brothers in Arkansas.


Rifleman1776 said:


> He said, although Missouri has one of the best relationships with PH Masonry in the country the issue, unfortunately, remains somewhat complicated. It seems not all PH Lodges recognize each other as being regular, or genuine, Masonic lodges.


Recently here in Kentucky PHGL and Kentucky GL recognized each other and then the following year visitation between the two was allowed. However, at this point the Kentucky GL only recognizes the PHA Lodge in Kentucky. However, it's a start.


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## Winter (Dec 21, 2018)

Glen Cook said:


> Ah, well, we must disagree on this issue. I’ll look forward to an area of agreement on another discussion!



Yes, I know my position is controversial.  And I am sure we will agree on more than we disagree, Brother. 



Warrior1256 said:


> Two good Brothers....disagreeing without being disagreeable. Well done gentlemen!



Yeah, it seems that more and more people have forgotten how to politely disagree with one another without making everything so personal.  Everyone is withdrawing into their camps and spitting vitriol instead of looking for any commonality.


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## Rifleman1776 (Dec 22, 2018)

Winter, while it is possible some join Masonry just to be eligible for Shrine membership, I believe that is not a big factor at all. I was partially attracted to Shrine because it espoused, and still does, maintaining Masonic principals. The two organizations (previously in Arkansas) served "in amity". But, there is no official connection between the two. And, that is how it should remain in my opinion.  Years before the big split I was attending my old Lodge less and less. It was simply boring and the only highlights were arguments. For quite a few years we didn't even have food or desert. We didn't eat, meet, burp and go home. We just met and went home. Not even a burp. There is enough angst in life, I didn't need the pointless arguing either. Shrine has remained solid in adhering to masonic principals and fellowship while doing great work supporting the hospitals.


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## Winter (Dec 22, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Winter, while it is possible some join Masonry just to be eligible for Shrine membership, I believe that is not a big factor at all. I was partially attracted to Shrine because it espoused, and still does, maintaining Masonic principals. The two organizations (previously in Arkansas) served "in amity". But, there is no official connection between the two. And, that is how it should remain in my opinion.  Years before the big split I was attending my old Lodge less and less. It was simply boring and the only highlights were arguments. For quite a few years we didn't even have food or desert. We didn't eat, meet, burp and go home. We just met and went home. Not even a burp. There is enough angst in life, I didn't need the pointless arguing either. Shrine has remained solid in adhering to masonic principals and fellowship while doing great work supporting the hospitals.



If the Lodge is not keeping members because of poor programming, the answer is to fix the Lodge and create the proper experience.  Not go to another organization that does provide that fulfillment.  That is the prime example of why I believe we should disassociate. Members find it easier to just go off to the Shrine than work to repair the Blue Lodge experience.  Just cut out the middle man and let those members be Shriners.


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## Bloke (Dec 22, 2018)

David612 said:


> Hey look! A newcomer, let’s alienate them.
> A fun little stereotypical microcosm of masonry itself really.



I think we have to listen to comments like this.

As to a National GL (of <insert large country>) I am not a fan. Many GLs avoid the risk of a Single Point of Failure - just as many lodges do in the one jurisdiction. I am also a fan of bottom up rather than top down management in Freemasonry. There is a limit to what most vibrant and intelligent volunteers want to be instructed on, esp when the suggestions and instructions "from the top" can sometimes be down right stupid and completely out of touch with local needs and wants.

While most people where are not pro a National GL (and we know it has been tried before)  - the question is why would we want one ? Marketing - that can be done by co-ordinating GL's efforts (good luck with that LOL). Tracking membership - already done via MSANA. A uniform ritual ? Who will give theirs up and why do we really need one ? Inter-visiting- can already be generally achieved. A single Corporate Entity to co-ordinate assets ? GL's often have a very bad track record in this (including my own) and again, we have a single point of failure - and we are much better spreading best practice rather than creating a national controlling entity.. Media Profile is the only real good reason I could see for a National GL - and it's not a good enough reason;


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## dfreybur (Dec 25, 2018)

Warrior1256 said:


> Recently here in Kentucky PHGL and Kentucky GL recognized each other and then the following year visitation between the two was allowed. However, at this point the Kentucky GL only recognizes the PHA Lodge in Kentucky. However, it's a start.



A few GLs have passed what is called "blanket recognition". Any time there is local recognition in a state, the jurisdiction automatically recognizes PHA. Among my jurisdictions Illinois does this. Illinois doesn't even wait for a return agreement they just sent an announcement of recognition and let the newly recognized PHA jurisdiction act on its own.

If your jurisdiction tracks one by one it ends up a mess. California does that. There's a  list in the annual Proceedings. When I went through it a couple of states were missing. I tried to get guys to sign legislation but my lodge's reaction was "We already recognize Prince Hall. They are meeting right now in the Green Room down the hall." If any California Brother wants to try in person, please ping me. Plus the list has PHA jurisdictions that have responded and those that have not.


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## Matt Ross (Jun 27, 2019)

The only thing I could see it helping is weeding out Clandestine "Masons". Correct me if I'm wrong of course.


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## Glen Cook (Jun 27, 2019)

Matt Ross said:


> The only thing I could see it helping is weeding out Clandestine "Masons". Correct me if I'm wrong of course.


There are national GLs in France and Italy and more irregular GLs than you can shake a stick at.


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## jermy Bell (Jun 29, 2019)

NO. Can you imagine what the dues would jump to ?


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## Winter (Jun 29, 2019)

jermy Bell said:


> NO. Can you imagine what the dues would jump to ?



A more reasonable level?


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## jermy Bell (Jun 29, 2019)

Winter said:


> A more reasonable level?


I don't know where you are from , but Illinois G.L. likes to get their hands on as much money they can squeeze from lodges. There are a tin in southern and central Illinois that will be closed in the next 5 years due to lack of members and rising dues.


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## Winter (Jun 29, 2019)

jermy Bell said:


> I don't know where you are from , but Illinois G.L. likes to get their hands on as much money they can squeeze from lodges. There are a tin in southern and central Illinois that will be closed in the next 5 years due to lack of members and rising dues.



One of my Lodges in Wisconsin is $400 a year now ($200 if you live out of state) and no Lodge I belong to is less than $100.  Too many lodges are trying to cling to the $60 dues and operating at a net loss every year where they have to rely on one or more fundraising events just to keep the lights on.  Which ends up being the catalyst for making it easier to join to get more members (read: dues) to join.  

Its easy to say "raise dues" but what we really need is a full blown reform on how we manage our Lodges.  If you have 10 dedicated Brothers doing the work, you cannot afford, or need, a building that accommodates hundreds.  Operate like lodges of old in a back room or basement.  The Work is what is important. Not the posh digs.

My drive-by post of reasonable dues was more tongue in cheek I think.  I don't believe a national GL would fix that, in fact, if you read my earlier posts I believe it would make it worse because required operating expenses.

On an unrelated note, did we run the OP off?  lol


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## Glen Cook (Jun 29, 2019)

Winter said:


> A more reasonable level?


That’s not my experience. My UGLE subscriptions are about double my GL Utah dues—before lodge subs.


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## Winter (Jun 29, 2019)

Glen Cook said:


> That’s not my experience. My UGLE subscriptions are about double my GL Utah dues—before lodge subs.



Sorry! The sarcasm didn't come through.  I need to remember to put the "/s".


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## Brother_Steve (Jun 30, 2019)

MichianaMason45 said:


> With all the different jurisdictions in the US(51 GLs and PHA GLs) would you support a National Grand Lodge? With a true American Grand Master? It would allow us to raise our visibility on a national level. Or would that play into the conspiracy theorist hands? With membership on the decline, would it make sense to consolidate our efforts? Maybe even regional GLs made up of several states? Just an interesting thought, what’s your take?


Hey guys, we're taking the traveling gavel to Hawaii next week. Plan your baby sitters accordingly


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## CLewey44 (Jul 2, 2019)

A National GL would be great if they were governed by someone that met my expectations and goals for Freemasonry. If it did not, then I'd be opposed to it. Sort of like federal government, it's great when the people running it share your ideals but terrible when they don't. It'd probably be pretty hit or miss and overall a disaster after some pondering. Too many states and opinions. It's not like a small country with one GL, we have like 100 GLs and a little over 1M opinions on Masonry.


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