# Is anglo-freemasonry on the endangered list?



## Bro_Vick (Apr 25, 2013)

Below was written by Jack Buta, and while the membership numbers discussions are never ending, I thought it brought up some good points, what do you things?

S&F,
-Bro Vick



Over a decade ago I studied the declining numbers of U.S. Freemasons over the past sixty years, as reported on Brother Paul Besselâ€™s website and began to myself; why is this happening? 

Freemasonry has been active in North America for almost 300 years. For the first 200 years or so, it had thrived to the point it was an essential part of the social and moral fabric of the U.S. South of our borders, Freemasonryâ€™s influence was even stronger. So, how is it possible that an organization built on the greatest philosophy known to man could suddenly falter? It sounds impossible, yet the numbers did not lie, and the worst news was yet to come. 

A few years ago Brother John Belton published a paper which showed pretty conclusively that not only was the membership in Anglo-Freemasonry dropping, but active participation of Masons had plummeted from over 25 years prior to the 1950â€™s to about 3 years today. The obvious conclusion from these studies is bleak indeed. With both a declining membership, and a shrinking base of knowledgeable mentors for new Freemasons; this branch of Freemasonry is on the endangered list. 

Letâ€™s face facts. The Fraternity, or at least its Treasurers, Secretaries, and Masters, have been aware of the situation for at least 30 years. However, in that time we have failed to come up with any answer other than to concentrate on making more Masons as fast as possible. With huge one-day classes our numbers soared briefly. Unfortunately, with all the focus on making new Masons, no one seemed to be bothered by the fact these same new Masons were not sticking around very long. We did not and still do not conduct exit interviews. If a Brother does not show up at Lodge, it is a rare Lodge that contacts him to find out why. 

After almost 300 years of Freemasonry in the U.S. there is no national, or statewide, program to contact a Brother more than 90 days after he has been raised to Master Mason. Mentors are becoming a lost art. There are no schools statewide, or national, where Masonic Philosophy is taught. No Anglo-Freemason needs to present papers to show they understand what the moral and ethical lessons they have learned in each degree, and sadly many leave without ever glimpsing the real secret of Freemasonry.

The only two questions left to be answered are first, will Anglo-Freemasonry save itself from extinction? Notice I did not say can, but will. Freemason philosophy did not suddenly go out of fashion; its mysteries are still hidden in plain sight available to any who is willing to search them out. Therefore, the solution becomes a matter not of obsolescence but of will, which brings up the second question. Do we care enough to do anything about it, or will we continue to complain and sit on our hands while our Anglo-Fraternity sinks in a sea of apathy?

What do you think?


----------



## widows son (Apr 25, 2013)

I can't really speak for other jurisdictions, but I know in mine we have a lot of men who are coming in, mostly in southern Ontario. (North Ontario is quite rural and has much lower populations.) I would hope that the same is happening elsewhere. But I agree that there needs to be a stronger presence of mentorship. There are those who are independent, and need little assistance in matters of Freemasonry, and others that need a lot more. This, I have witnessed. I think I fall sort of in between. It is hard to address everyone's needs as a mentor, especially if you are mentoring a number of masons, but most lodges have a number of PM capable of handling the job. Unfortunately some enjoy not having much responsibility especially after becoming a WM.  In the end, the lodge is every masons responsibility. It would be sad day if any lodge ever had to close its doors forever.


----------



## JJones (Apr 25, 2013)

Let me counter your question with a hypothetical scenario:

You've joined a very old and prestigious gardening club.  You complete the process it takes to join and pay the cheap membership fees.  With great excitement you attend your first gardening club meeting.

It starts out as a typical business meeting you've seen elsewhere.  The members open the meeting, read the minutes, discuss business, vote on things, etc, ect...all the while you wait for the topic to turn to gardening.  To your disappointment, gardening is only briefly mentioned when opening and closing the meeting as a formality and you certainly don't feel as though you've -learned- anything.  You resolve to attend a few more meetings with hopes of learning something but you quickly realize the norm for the gardening club is to really not discuss gardening at all.  You're disappointed but eh, it was easy and cheap to join so you quit.

I'd argue that there's a parallel between my story and Freemasonry.  I hear lots of solutions that lodges have come up with to get new members but few people seem to suggest simply teaching Freemasonry during their meetings.  IMO it won't matter how many people you raise in one night, how easy you make it to join, how much you advertise, or how low your dues are...if a lodge isn't offering the product people signed up for then low retention can be expected.  Many people join expecting to learn how to become better men, after all, that's what we tell them Freemasonry does, however there is very little taking place which actually does this.

Just my .02, as usual.


----------



## BrianMDowns (Apr 25, 2013)

But people also have to put into it to get something out.  I have been a Master for a mere 3 months.  But even before that, I was showing up at all of the meetings and helping with whatever, whenever.  It seems to me that it is more of a societal shift away from the "love one another" to the "what's in it for me" mentality.  I know quite a few who joined merely because a friend did or to make contacts.  
We started a class at our Lodge Wednesday for the mentorship program at our Lodge with 5 guys, varying in experience with 2 newer members and 3 past masters.  Hopefully things will start to turn around....


North Bend Lodge #346
Cleves, OH


----------



## widows son (Apr 25, 2013)

JJones, may I use that?


----------



## Michael Hatley (Apr 26, 2013)

I wish the M word were something more palatable to folks.  By the "M" word I mean _"merger".

_Consolidation of lodges, a whole lot of them, could do a lot to create critical masses.  Healthy lodges of old, that maintain their numbers and reverse the decline.  So many lodges struggling, with leadership spread thin and all over.

Just my view.


----------



## Roy Vance (Apr 26, 2013)

Michael Hatley said:


> I wish the M word were something more palatable to folks. By the "M" word I mean _"merger".
> 
> _Consolidation of lodges, a whole lot of them, could do a lot to create critical masses. Healthy lodges of old, that maintain their numbers and reverse the decline. So many lodges struggling, with leadership spread thin and all over.
> 
> Just my view.



Brother Hatley, I agree with you, completely. Although, the thought of your Lodge merging with another and becoming something else, might be a sad thought, we should also take into consideration the possibility of sustaining at least one of the Lodges instead of maybe losing two. It would also bring more Brothers into the same Lodgeroom and maybe also some different ideas and opinions to make it a healthier Lodge....maybe....hopefully!


----------



## Blake Bowden (Apr 26, 2013)

*"The only two questions left to be answered are first, will Anglo-Freemasonry save itself from extinction?"*

Are we talking about "mainstream" Freemasonry? If so, I've always said the Craft is in for a big dose of hurt in the next 5-10 years. Dozens, if not hundreds of Lodges will demise, not to mention the effect on our appendant bodies. Do we care enough? I think so. Are those who can make a difference doing it? In my opinion, no. I believe the Grand Lodge is all about politics, Brethren traveling the line are there to enjoy their time in the Grand East, not to tackle the tough issues head on, which is why nothing changes year after year. Only a small minority stirs the pot, proposes resolutions, etc. The rest are content with a hotdog, beans and lays potato chip dinner and a "pay the bills" meeting. Those are the Lodges who have no problem initiating a candidate, yet can't retain them for further light. 

*Notice I did not say can, but will. Freemason philosophy did not suddenly go out of fashion; its mysteries are still hidden in plain sight available to any who is willing to search them out. Therefore, the solution becomes a matter not of obsolescence but of will, which brings up the second question. Do we care enough to do anything about it, or will we continue to complain and sit on our hands while our Anglo-Fraternity sinks in a sea of apathy?*

Unless things change at our Grand Lodge, including PHA (Texas), the Craft will continue to decline. What we need is true leadership.


----------



## rpbrown (Apr 26, 2013)

Part of the issue at hand is take a look at the world around us. Everyone is "in it" for themselves. Not many care about the "other person" until it affects them.

Granted there are a lot of issues other than this bu I am of the opinion that if you go out and live your life as a Mason should for all to see, you will attract others that want to see what made you tick, so to speak.
You have those that go through the degrees, pay their dues, and never come to a lodge again. Is it that they are no longer interested, or did things change in their lives, or perhaps someone upset them (this happens a lot I have found out), or maybe they were just expecting something else. Or even the fact that they are using the craft for their own benifit.

I see the above things in several lodges that I have attended. I also have the following suggestions to help:
*(1) *Do a better job of invesigating the candidate. Check with neighbors, workers, and friends about his actions and dedication toward things
*(2) *When is a meeting, make it more than just a business meeting. Have a raffle, invite outside speakers (my home lodge does this quite often), make it fun. Not everything has to be so serious.
*(3) *Stay away from the "cliques". In my opinion, this is one of the largest problems with lodges today. You have the same people in groups here and over there and again over there. If a new mason sees this over a course of time, it will discourage him and has. 

Our craft has a common goal, to make good men better. The best way to do that is to be a mentor, friend, and most of all a brother to all that come through your door.

We have been fortunate of late that we have had several new members in the last 3 years. Most have stayed but a few have dropped off. We have set a committee to call people when they haven't been to 2 conscutive meetings. This at least lets them know we are thinking about them


----------



## streeter (Apr 26, 2013)

JJones said:


> Let me counter your question with a hypothetical scenario:
> 
> You've joined a very old and prestigious gardening club.  You complete the process it takes to join and pay the cheap membership fees.  With great excitement you attend your first gardening club meeting.
> 
> ...


brilliant - love it - more please!!!Robert streeter.


----------



## JJones (Apr 26, 2013)

widows son said:


> JJones, may I use that?



Of course you can my brother.  



> I wish the M word were something more palatable to folks. By the "M" word I mean _"merger".
> 
> Consolidation of lodges, a whole lot of them, could do a lot to create critical masses. Healthy lodges of old, that maintain their numbers and reverse the decline. So many lodges struggling, with leadership spread thin and all over.
> _



I respect your opinion and you may very well be correct but I feel differently.  Many people join local lodges for the benefit that they are local...I think if two lodges merged then you wouldn't see many members show up from the absorbed lodge.  We have a hard time just getting brethren to commute to nearby lodges for a visit and I find myself wondering if it'd be much different if we merged with one of them.

I could rant about leadership but I won't (too much). At some lodges everyone wants to be chief but nobody wants to be indians.  People willing to take leadership aren't hard to come by...it's capable leaders who are willing to do so which are scarce.  There are also lots of members with potential but there aren't really any programs (local or on the GL level) that helps them develop their leadership.


----------



## Michael Hatley (Apr 26, 2013)

In Houston we have something on the order of 30 lodges.  Half of which struggle to put together a degree team.  In half those lodges, 3-4 people do 90% of the work.  2 of that handful is very often the secretary and treasurer.

Sometimes a miracle worker comes along and repairs one of these lodges.  Half the time once they are out of tge east the lodge starts the inevitable decline again.

Of course, most of us here are that miracle worker or aspire to be.  I think we are wasting energy.  Leadership is indeed rare.  Imagine a lodge where we came together and put our backs together.  The doers.  Now imagine every lodge in Texas being like that.

Also, think of how far men travelled to a lodge in Sam Houstons day.  All day, maybe?

Now we'd rather not drive 15 minutes and are satisfied, in many cases, with skeleton Masonry.  Or, put the lodge on our back and try to solve it, burning out half the men who do so.

Just my take bro

--also

A few thoughts in addition - the "absorb" bit is the operative thing I think.  When we think of a "merger" or a "consolidation", I think the majority of us think of one lodge absorbing another.  Thats where the minds of the folks at my lodge went to immediately when I asked if it is ever done.  They steered the conversation to lodges that we could absorb.  And make comments like "from my cold dead hands" about us being absorbed and so on and so forth.

Which isn't what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about two lodges coming together who are surviving on their own but who could thrive together.  A true partnership. 

But thats impossible to even discuss in most cases for three reasons:  

1) the lodge's name.  People will defend that name and charter till death, literally.
2) Buildings, and all the complications that go with them
3) Both lodge's progressive line.  Trying to sort out a merger of that is a non starter

And so the only thing we can think of when the word "consolidation" is used is "absorption".

In my opinion our Past Master status, and the permanent "status" and vote it brings is working against us some.  

So, I fear that over the next 20 years as the men 70-95 are called from labor that there will be quite a number of these "absorptions", which depresses everyone at the absorbed lodge and basically kills it - but it will have to happen because lots of them just won't have the numbers anymore.

Partnerships, consolidations - whereby both names of both lodges are used in the new name, with a new number, a new location and with noone being "absorbed" would be great in my view.  But probably impossible.  Just too much working against it.  This is what I mean when I say I wish the M word wasn't a dirty word.

And so the future of Masonry is very likely to increasingly be invitational TO lodges where mostly PMs get together once a quarter for something approaching old school Masonry.  The congregation of doers.  And where many, many members of said TO lodges have had to live through years of skeletal masonry where they have been Atlas at their home blue lodge for perhaps ever. Maybe I'm wrong, and I've got the responsibility myself to try to resist that tide and be that leader to rally around, but I really wonder if the system is working against us.   Especially the PM/progressive line setup whereby strong leaders are spread to the winds in many different progressive lines, rarely reaching critical masses where momentum is built.

Think about it in terms of business.  I can't imagine any businessman who had a chain of businesses that had a lot of the same elements of Masonic lodges today wouldn't immediately and first come to the word consolidation, and their business would likely flourish as a result after a tough readjustment.  Its true of course we are not a business, far from it.  But the 30,000 foot view is what I'm ramblin about here.

Anyhoo - true partnerships where both partner lodges consolidating share equal billing in all ways moving forward - is there even an example of it in Texas Masonic History?  Probably not so its all Quixotic anyway


----------



## JJones (Apr 26, 2013)

I feel I should have mentioned that my area is pretty rural.  I haven't actually visited any urban lodges before but I wouldn't be surprised if things are different due to having higher memberships than rural lodges.  Of course you mention that only a handful of people keep the lodge running...so maybe rural and urban lodges aren't that different after all? 



> Sometimes a miracle worker comes along and repairs one of these lodges. Half the time once they are out of tge east the lodge starts the inevitable decline again.



I think sometimes the progressive line does more harm than good. (Ok, I actually think this quite often.)



> Also, think of how far men travelled to a lodge in Sam Houstons day. All day, maybe?
> 
> Now we'd rather not drive 15 minutes and are satisfied, in many cases, with skeleton Masonry. Or, put the lodge on our back and try to solve it, burning out half the men who do so.



I agree.  People used to take the craft much more seriously.  My grandfather still remembers when the roads were dirt and people rode horses and wagons into town.  When the time for our stated meeting rolled around most (if not all) of the brethren nearby would make it a point to come to town and attend.  It also wasn't unusual for them to have to get a room at the hotel that night and head home in the morning.

I don't think people have this same mindset today and I know for a fact that many brethren prefer to stay home and watch TV instead of go to lodge.  Something changed between now and then.  I don't know what it was but I think I'd like to look into that one day.

I'm enjoying this discussion btw.


----------



## Michael Hatley (Apr 26, 2013)

Woops edited as you were responding.  Yeah, the progressive line bit is a pretty big hurdle.  But I'll be darned if I know how to fix it.  Maybe it can't be.

I reckon that urban lodges (true urban lodges, lodges within the inner city limits of San Antonio, Dallas/Ft. Worth, Houston, Austin, etc) face a load of the same issues as rural lodges.

The lodges I've seen that are most often thriving are suburban.

"White flight" (I hate the term but it is what it is) coupled with the PHA division has made even the most famous urban lodges in Texas very often struggle for bodies from what I've seen.  Add on the fact that a very large number of young urban professionals (the sort that own condos) are decidedly secular.  That last bit precludes about 9 out of 10 of my non Masonic friends from seriously considering the fraternity.

And so many of the powerhouse lodges (relatively speaking) ring the outskirts of urban areas rather than within them.


----------



## Roy Vance (Apr 26, 2013)

My question is; "What does one do about a segregated Lodge?" By "segregated", I mean racially. I have seen a few of them that still look at the external man before seeing the internal qualifications. What do we do about that? A man is a man, is he not? No matter what his skin tone may be, be it tan, brown, green, black, yellow,etc?


----------



## dfreybur (Apr 26, 2013)

Michael Hatley said:


> Sometimes a miracle worker comes along and repairs one of these lodges.  Half the time once they are out of tge east the lodge starts the inevitable decline again.



I've seen this happen in more than one lodge.  Get a candidate pipeline and an active social calendar going and it's self-sustaining.  Get faced with a crumbling building and repairs that cost more than the lodge is worth and the decline happens.



> A few thoughts in addition - the "absorb" bit is the operative thing I think.  When we think of a "merger" or a "consolidation", I think the majority of us think of one lodge absorbing another.



I've been on both sides of that fence as well.  My mother lodge was named Pasadena Consolidated when I petitioned and took my degrees.  Several lodges had recently merged.  As I progressed through the line we absorbed two more lodges.  The brothers ahead and behind me in the line came in through these consolidations.  By the time I was in the east we were just Pasadena lodge as the common denominator.

In Illinois I was on the other side of the consolidation fence.  I affiliated with Arlington Heights 1162 at the start of a burst of petitions but the building started to crumble.  We became a tenant and after we moved we lost our recruiting turf.  I had to serve in the east two years in a row and go back into the line after that.  We had no choice about selling the building but we faced a choice on consolidation.  Consolidate while we could still field a degree team or decay further and maybe lose our charter.  So we offered a consolidation and got absorbed.  Some good came of it.  We changed our lodge's name to the name of our suburb so it's now Barrington 522.  We combined a lodge with a building and a lodge with and investment income.  Our combined members gave a healthy line plus quality degree team plus a sizable candidate pipeline.

I have learned lessons about consolidations.  Do it before there is no other choice.  Value a building in good condition, an investment account, a region to draw petitions from, a good line, a good degree team, an active social calendar.  If your lodge has some of those look to merge with a lodge that has the rest to complete the list.  Two sick lodges that merge result in one sick lodge if you don't pay attention to this.


----------



## dfreybur (Apr 26, 2013)

widows son said:


> But I agree that there needs to be a stronger presence of mentorship.



Mentorship and education are current drives in many jurisdictions.  Very necessary.  Lodges that can't field mentors for proficiency lose candidates.  Lodges that don't have Masonic discussion at the Stated meeting lose new members who want meaning.  Ask a brother to pick some topic and talk about what it means to him at the next meeting.



> It would be sad day if any lodge ever had to close its doors forever.



Sad but necessary I figure.  Right now there are thriving lodges with full candidate pipelines and plenty of petitions and there are also lodges not getting petitions.  Overall the number of petitions has been growing steadily for maybe a decade.  We're past the bottom for petitions and in a few years we'll be past the bottom for membership.  But not all lodges will survive the process.  Lodges without candidates need to get candidates or consolidate with a lodge that does have candidates.  Lodges that can't field a degree team need to get help from other lodges or consolidate to deliver their candidates to lodges who can field degree teams.

What's a lodge?  A certain number of brothers, etc.  What's the number one purpose of a lodge?  To make Masons.  Without making Masons everytihng else is dust in the wind.  Masons live and die and without making more Masons we exist no more.

What's a grand lodge?  A certain number of brothers, etc.  What's the number one purpose of a grand lodge?  To charter more lodges.  Without making lodges everything else is dust in the wind.  Most grand lodges in North America seem to not get this point.  Lodges as a population live and die just as Masons as a population live and die.  Grand lodges must work to charter new lodges not hope that their current ones are immortal.


----------



## Bro. Vincent (Apr 26, 2013)

Curious. What is "Anglo" Freemasonry? I assume that to mean white. Please correct me of I'm wrong. 


Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## widows son (Apr 26, 2013)

I believe they are referring to what would be known as mainstream freemasonry


----------



## Bro. Vincent (Apr 27, 2013)

Hmmm...what's the difference? I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone, I am just surprised.. I'm new to PHA and I am surprised with all the different sects in Freemasonry. 






Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## Michael Hatley (Apr 27, 2013)

I took it to mean English style Freemasonry, as in recognized by UGLE - which would include PH.  As opposed to, for example, the French GL style Masonry and others, which are often co-ed, not recognized by the UGLE and to most of us, clandestine.


----------



## Bro. Vincent (Apr 27, 2013)

I was just curious. Because I know I get alot if push back when i speak of the Moors and the ancient African roots of what Western Civilization calls Freemasonry.


Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## JJones (Apr 27, 2013)

Bro. Vincent said:


> I was just curious. Because I know I get alot if push back when i speak of the Moors and the ancient African roots of what Western Civilization calls Freemasonry.



I haven't heard about any relationship to the Moors.  Also are you speaking about ancient Egypt?


----------



## Bro. Vincent (Apr 27, 2013)

Both.


Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## jwhoff (Apr 27, 2013)

roy.vance said:


> My question is; "What does one do about a segregated Lodge?" By "segregated", I mean racially. I have seen a few of them that still look at the external man before seeing the internal qualifications. What do we do about that? A man is a man, is he not? No matter what his skin tone may be, be it tan, brown, green, black, yellow,etc?




Your eyesight must be poor brother.  I see PLENTY of lodges still looking at the external man before seeing the internal qualificiations.  That goes for skin tone, net worth, and a mirid of other qualities.  But, unfortunately, we are dealing with people subject to all the petty tastes people are so well known for.

Then again, maybe your eyesight is tanted by our desires that masonry should aspire to a higher level.  Oh that it were.

God bless.


----------



## dfreybur (Apr 28, 2013)

roy.vance said:


> My question is; "What does one do about a segregated Lodge?" By "segregated", I mean racially. I have seen a few of them that still look at the external man before seeing the internal qualifications. What do we do about that?



I favor what happens in the work world - Ostracism and marginalization.  Shunning.  Be tolerant of tolerance, intolerant of intolerance.  In time those who practice it will age out and die.  Most in the new generation has never seen such practices in their lives.  Live that all in the new generation only see such topics in history books.


----------



## Roy Vance (Apr 28, 2013)

jwhoff said:


> Your eyesight must be poor brother. I see PLENTY of lodges still looking at the external man before seeing the internal qualificiations. That goes for skin tone, net worth, and a mirid of other qualities. But, unfortunately, we are dealing with people subject to all the petty tastes people are so well known for.
> 
> Then again, maybe your eyesight is tanted by our desires that masonry should aspire to a higher level. Oh that it were.
> 
> God bless.



It may be that my sight is slightly tainted by wanting to aspire to that higher level.


----------



## Roy Vance (Apr 28, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> I favor what happens in the work world - Ostracism and marginalization. Shunning. Be tolerant of tolerance, intolerant of intolerance. In time those who practice it will age out and die. Most in the new generation has never seen such practices in their lives. Live that all in the new generation only see such topics in history books.



I can understand that point of view, but, there is a small problem for me there. Some of those with that outlook are much younger than I am and will out live me. So, there, my Brother, is my dilema. I do not like "racism" or any kind of bigotry, and those who practice it make me angry and want to spit bullets, but, with my being a relatively "young" Mason, two years next month, I just mostly keep to myself about it and live my personal life like I feel I need to.


----------



## widows son (Apr 29, 2013)

"I was just curious. Because I know I get alot if push back when i speak of the Moors and the ancient African roots of what Western Civilization calls Freemasonry."

-the ancient Egyptians were centuries apart from the Moors. The Moors invades Spain.


----------



## Bro. Vincent (Apr 29, 2013)

The moors trace alot of their lineage back to that part of the world. In Morocco and northern Africa.  I understand they were active during different time frames... My point is they were a vital link between ancient freemasonry (african not greek)and modern western civilization's version(European) of freemasonry. 

The moors have a story that is so unique when it comes to masonry and its rarely told...they ruled Southern Europe for 700 years and touch every part of the continent. They ushered in the renaissance period.   

There is a reason in my eyes why those Irish soldiers were willing to initiate Prince Hall. When none of the American lodges would... 


Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## dfreybur (Apr 29, 2013)

Michael Hatley said:


> And so many of the powerhouse lodges (relatively speaking) ring the outskirts of urban areas rather than within them.



A new generation is moving back towards the center of cities.  Gentrification, urban renewal.  Give it a few brief decades and urban lodges with be thriving again.


----------



## dfreybur (Apr 29, 2013)

Bro. Vincent said:


> The moors have a story that is so unique when it comes to masonry and its rarely told...they ruled Southern Europe for 700 years and touch every part of the continent.



The Moors were a part of the Caliphate.  Encounters between the Knights Templar and the Caliphate have a part in why many of us like to claim the KT as our spiritual ancestors and some try to claim direct lineage.



> They ushered in the renaissance period.



The Renaissance period in Europe happened after and arguably because they were ejected.  It was a different Renaissance.  Any mathematician knows the words algebra and algorithm come from the Caliphate and thus from the Moors.  The European one came after the Moors were ejected.  Architecture, though ...  Look at Moorish then at Romanesque then at Gothic architectures.  The influence is striking.



> There is a reason in my eyes why those Irish soldiers were willing to initiate Prince Hall. When none of the American lodges would...



Because racism was an American phenomenon and they had not been absorbed into the local culture so they had not gotten infected by it.


----------



## widows son (Apr 29, 2013)

"The moors trace alot of their lineage back to that part of the world. In Morocco and northern Africa. I understand they were active during different time frames... My point is they were a vital link between ancient freemasonry (african not greek)and modern western civilization's version(European) of freemasonry. "

- Operative/speculative Freemasonry didn't exist outside of Europe for a long time. During the Enlightenment, the rediscovery of ancient cultures helped influence the people who would later influence Masonry.  I believe that The Mysteries, specifically the initiatory and degree or grade system was used as a model by those who had a hand in the formation of the rituals. That doesn't mean that Freemasonry is a direct descendant of these
Mystery institutions, rather it was recognized that it proved successful to the specific nature of the craft. That, with other concepts such as grips that stonemasons used to recognize each other, also proved successful. Because Freemasonry as we know it was spawned during the Enlightenment, Many other pervading ideas were incorporated into it. 

Prior to the stonemasons we knew the Romans were the ones who knew the building and mathematical techniques used to erects massive structures.


----------



## Bro. Vincent (Apr 29, 2013)

Ok you have to do some studying outside of mainstream history tellers. some of the changes to modern freemasonry are changed simply to meet the specific cultures of that time period but the concepts predate the Romans and Greeks by thousands of years. As a matter of fact this is what some Greek scholars scribed themselves, that they had studied at feet of the people of khemit, which does not mean the black soil it means the land of the blacks. 

You are correct the great builders of "western civilization"started with the Greeks then the Romans, but Egyptians predate them and they wrote they were the descendants of the Nubian empires south of Egypt in the northern portion of the Nile Valley down south. I am afraid my brother this history is hidden from the world and locked in the Vatican and the louve in Paris and the aristocracy of the world.

People would like you to believe this is fantasy but there's a reason the people of the world are never taught african history. The mainstream history tellers have gone to great lengths to suppress this information and would have us all believe that humanity and civilization started in Europe. When in fact it is a mere child to the high cultures that predate them by thousands of years. Complete with degree work, rituals and the whole 9. 

This is not to argue with you my brother.  And make no mistake you are my masonic brother. But I must admit it is frustrating that we are always taught European history but I would be very surprised if you could tell me anything about the ancient  people's of Africa. I'm sure you would have a hard time coming up with  5 historical events pre 17 century.







Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## widows son (Apr 29, 2013)

Bro. Vincent I would like to continue this convo in a private msg or on a separate thread.  I don't want to hijack this thread.


----------



## Bro. Vincent (Apr 29, 2013)

widows son said:


> Bro. Vincent I would like to continue this convo in a private msg or on a separate thread.  I don't want to hijack this thread.



That would be perfect brother.


Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## JJones (Apr 29, 2013)

I don't know anything about the Moors but what you're saying is reminding me a lot of "The Hiram Key", I don't know if you've read it or not.

I'm not sure how I feel about all of it myself.  There's no doubt that our civilization is heavily influenced from Greece/Rome...who likely were inspired by Egypt, who were in turn inspired by Sumaria...at least not in my mind...I'm just not sure at which point we can find the roots of our fraternity.


----------



## Bro_Vick (Apr 29, 2013)

Blake Bowden said:


> *"The only two questions left to be answered are first, will Anglo-Freemasonry save itself from extinction?"*
> 
> Are we talking about "mainstream" Freemasonry?



All English speaking countries, UK, Canada, Ireland, US.  In Latin America, France and other parts of Europe Freemasonry is actually growing, not shrinking.  That is discussed in the paper that Bro Buta mentioned above.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


----------



## Bro_Vick (Apr 29, 2013)

Bro. Vincent said:


> Curious. What is "Anglo" Freemasonry? I assume that to mean white. Please correct me of I'm wrong.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



No, it means countries that are predominatly settled by the UK, so the US, Canada, Australia, etc are currently going through the decline.  While countries in Latin America, France, and other jurisdictions in Europe have been seeing a steady increase.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


----------



## alaric357 (Apr 30, 2013)

what is Anglo free masonry?

Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## Bro. Vincent (Apr 30, 2013)

JJones said:


> I don't know anything about the Moors but what you're saying is reminding me a lot of "The Hiram Key", I don't know if you've read it or not.
> 
> I'm not sure how I feel about all of it myself.  There's no doubt that our civilization is heavily influenced from Greece/Rome...who likely were inspired by Egypt, who were in turn inspired by Sumaria...at least not in my mind...I'm just not sure at which point we can find the roots of our fraternity.



Funny you should ask..  I actually just started reading the Hiram Key. Seems to be an interesting piece of work so far.


Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## widows son (Apr 30, 2013)

"I don't know anything about the Moors but what you're saying is reminding me a lot of "The Hiram Key", I don't know if you've read it or not.

I'm not sure how I feel about all of it myself. There's no doubt that our civilization is heavily influenced from Greece/Rome...who likely were inspired by Egypt, who were in turn inspired by Sumaria...at least not in my mind...I'm just not sure at which point we can find the roots of our fraternity."

- I agree brother. I've read the book three times. The authors do provide quite a bit of factual info, but I don't agree with their conclusions in that book. I have their entire series, I'd say Uriel's Machine is second to the Book of Hiram. 
The only thing I don't like is that they seem to try and say the book of Hiram can be used as a biblical guide or something to that effect. JM2C


----------



## alaric357 (Apr 30, 2013)

I have the book the Hiram key as well it's a great book with a lot of information, and interesting facts I received it from a brother Mason from Peru

Freemason Connect Mobile


----------



## anthonywilson (May 4, 2013)

I'm going to attempt to swing this discussion back to the starting point. There are a lot of "problems" and solutions but it seems that no one wants to try to sort out the former with the latter. One thng I've noticed is that Lodges (and the members) need to figure out what type of Lodge they want to be. For example, 1) Craft Lodge that stresses work and gorwing the knowledge of its members with some community outreach, 2) Lions Club with some memory work, or 3) a merge of both. I'd say that my Lodge is #3 with leanings towards #2. We stress work but I think we stress the community outreach a bit too much and it tends to overshadow some of the reasons why some Brothers joined (myself included). Outreach is important (awards, scholarships, trash pickup, thanksgiving baskets, inviting folks to the important banquets) but some of it, in my opinion, fails to achieve the goals that were sat in place. As one brother said: "It is hard to pay dues when people are asking for $10-$20 everytime you turn around." Anyway, it might be a good idea for a suggestion box to be sat out with a questionnaire and the Officers review the comments to figure out a way to help swing the Lodge towards the future; the Grand Lodge could also hold an online survey for the same reasons.


----------



## Bro_Vick (May 5, 2013)

anthonywilson said:


> I'm going to attempt to swing this discussion back to the starting point. There are a lot of "problems" and solutions but it seems that no one wants to try to sort out the former with the latter. One thng I've noticed is that Lodges (and the members) need to figure out what type of Lodge they want to be. For example, 1) Craft Lodge that stresses work and gorwing the knowledge of its members with some community outreach, 2) Lions Club with some memory work, or 3) a merge of both. I'd say that my Lodge is #3 with leanings towards #2. We stress work but I think we stress the community outreach a bit too much and it tends to overshadow some of the reasons why some Brothers joined (myself included). Outreach is important (awards, scholarships, trash pickup, thanksgiving baskets, inviting folks to the important banquets) but some of it, in my opinion, fails to achieve the goals that were sat in place. As one brother said: "It is hard to pay dues when people are asking for $10-$20 everytime you turn around." Anyway, it might be a good idea for a suggestion box to be sat out with a questionnaire and the Officers review the comments to figure out a way to help swing the Lodge towards the future; the Grand Lodge could also hold an online survey for the same reasons.




When I took over Chapter and Council, I sent out a survey to all the members trying to gauge what they wanted, out of about 70 members I got 3 to respond.  I am not a fan of the survey's they are difficult to energize the membership to answer.  Usually the people that respond are either those who love everything you are doing or are completely against you or someone in your officer's line-up, or mad at the lodge about something that happened 20 years ago.

I agree we should get feedback from the lodge, but a lot of time that feedback of what they want fixed, there is nothing you can do.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


----------



## dfreybur (May 6, 2013)

Bro_Vick said:


> I agree we should get feedback from the lodge



The best form of feedback is counting attendance at events and meetings.  Attendance is the sincerest form of support.


----------



## JJones (May 6, 2013)

Bro_Vick said:


> When I took over Chapter and Council, I sent out a survey to all the members trying to gauge what they wanted, out of about 70 members I got 3 to respond.  I am not a fan of the survey's they are difficult to energize the membership to answer.  Usually the people that respond are either those who love everything you are doing or are completely against you or someone in your officer's line-up, or mad at the lodge about something that happened 20 years ago.
> 
> I agree we should get feedback from the lodge, but a lot of time that feedback of what they want fixed, there is nothing you can do.
> 
> ...



Funny, I did the same thing with Blue Lodge and got 3 out of 80.  It's hard to get any kind of useful info out of such a small response though.


----------

