# Albert Pike: More harm than good?



## cacarter (Apr 2, 2014)

Today, in 1891, Albert Pike passed away. Which made me start thinking, when considering Pike today is he more of a patron or a hindrance to freemasonry?


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## dfreybur (Apr 2, 2014)

He acts as a lightning rod for lunatics.  Once they start in on his material they are the more easily identified and their stances discarded.


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## jjjjjggggg (Apr 2, 2014)

I'm reading Morals and Dogma now. Though he's very wordy, I haven't ran across anything that has set off my BS detector. In fact, it's been an enjoyable read so far. So I guess I just haven't made it to the nut job fodder yet, whatever it may be.


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## marty15chris (Apr 2, 2014)

The only problem I see with Pike's writings is it's too easy for the crazies to quote them out of context to make some out of this world claim. 


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## nfasson (Apr 2, 2014)

marty15chris said:


> The only problem I see with Pike's writings is it's too easy for the crazies to quote them out of context to make some out of this world claim.
> 
> 
> Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App



Like Masons worshipping Lucifer. Did Baphomet come from Pike?

What was the purpose of Morals and Dogma?


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## Companion Joe (Apr 2, 2014)

I'm personally more of an Albert Mackey guy myself. 

As noted, the biggest problem with Pike is his stuff is so over the head of most folks, the nuts have a field day picking bits and pieces to use as ammo.


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## jwhoff (Apr 2, 2014)

Pike can easily be taken out of context if one chooses.  His work is no disgrace among masons.  In fact, masons should never apologize for Pike's work.  

Taking things out of context is a favorite pastime these days.  Crazies thrill at the opportunity.

I'm kind of proud to be on the opposite side of the Crazies.  The only alternative is to have them on my side.  Which would be most disturbing.

Rejoice that they don't like us Brethren.  It's really an honor!


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## JJones (Apr 2, 2014)

I think Pike was a very smart man who was very knowledgeable about Freemasonry.  That being said, a lot of his ideas and quotes have been misunderstood and taken out of context in a way that does more harm than good for the fraternity...then again he might not have intended for outsiders to read his books at all.

Nonmasons act as though he was the foremost authority on Freemasonry when really he was just another brother who happened to be very influential.  I'm not sure he would recognize the Freemasonry that is being practiced in many lodges today.

Anyhow, he's an interesting figure but with his writings in the hands of the ignorant I think he does more harm than good.


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## MarkR (Apr 3, 2014)

nfasson said:


> Like Masons worshipping Lucifer. Did Baphomet come from Pike?
> 
> What was the purpose of Morals and Dogma?


No, the whole Baphomet thing came from the Taxil hoax.  The purpose of M&D was Pike lecturing on his thoughts and readings that informed the degrees.


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## rebis (Apr 3, 2014)

M&D was my inspiration in seeking the higher degrees. Mason or profane, anybody would greatly benefit from reading but one paragraph out of it. It will lift your understanding and intellect to stellar heights. I particularly recommend it to the virtuous and philosophical brothers. I read it cover to cover and I also read out of it at our stated meetings as chaplain.

Albert Pike was a genius and is the first person I would meet should I ever time travel.


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## Mike Martin (Apr 3, 2014)

I find it sad that many who read M&D do not bother to read the Preface by the Supreme Council which puts the book exactly into the correct context for anybody (Mason or not) who reads it. Just for clarity I have reproduced it below and emboldened the most important elements that are totally ignored by many readers of the book.

PREFACE.

THE following work has been prepared by authority of the Supreme Council of the Thirty-third Degree, for the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States, by the Grand Commander, and is now published by its direction. *It contains the Lectures of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite in that jurisdiction, and is specially intended to be read and studied by the Brethren of that obedience, in connection with the Rituals of the Degrees. *It is hoped and expected that each will furnish himself with a copy, and make himself familiar with it; for which purpose, as the cost of the work consists entirely in the printing and binding, it will be furnished at a price as moderate as possible. No individual will receive pecuniary profit from it, except the agents for its sale.

It has been copyrighted, to prevent its republication elsewhere, and the copyright, like those of all the other works prepared for the Supreme Council, has been assigned to Trustees for that Body. Whatever profits may accrue from it will be devoted to purposes of charity.

The Brethren of the Rite in the United States and Canada will be afforded the opportunity to purchase it, nor is it forbidden that other Masons shall; but they will not be solicited to do so.

*In preparing this work, the Grand Commander has been about equally Author and Compiler; since he has extracted quite half its contents from the works of the best writers and most philosophic or eloquent thinkers. Perhaps it would have been better and more acceptable if he had extracted more and written less.*

*Still, perhaps half of it is his own; and, in incorporating here the thoughts and words of others, he has continually changed and added to the language, often intermingling, in the same sentences, his own words with theirs. It not being intended for the world at large, he has felt at liberty to make, from all accessible sources, a Compendium of the Morals and Dogma of the Rite, to re-mould sentences, change and add to words and phrases, combine them with his own, and use them as if they were his own, to be dealt with at his pleasure and so availed of as to make the whole most valuable for the purposes intended. He claims, therefore, little of the merit of authorship, and has not cared to distinguish his own from that which he has taken from other sources, being quite willing that every portion of the book, in turn, may be regarded as borrowed from some old and better writer.*

*The teachings or these Readings are not sacramental, so far as they go beyond the realm of Morality into those of other domains of Thought and Truth.* The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite uses the word "Dogma" in its true sense, of doctrine, or teaching; and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term. *Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound.* It is only required of him that he shall weigh what is taught, and give it fair hearing and unprejudiced judgment. *Of course, the ancient theosophic and philosophic speculations arc not embodied as part of the doctrines of the Rite;* but because it is of interest and profit to know what the Ancient Intellect thought upon these subjects, and because nothing so conclusively proves the radical difference between our human and the animal nature, as the capacity of the human mind to entertain such speculations in regard to Itself and the Deity. But as to these opinions themselves, we may say, in the words of the learned Canonist, Ludovicus Gomez: "Opiniones secundum vanetatem temporum senescant et infermoriantur, aliccque diversce vcl prioribus contraries renascantur et delude pubescant."


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## rebis (Apr 3, 2014)

True, he did compile a lot of if from previous works, but none the less, he had the intellect and genius to put it all together where otherwise such works would've been scattered and hard to come by.


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## jvarnell (Apr 3, 2014)

Pike was a man that would look at all things and try to pull them together into one writing for better understanding.  When you read Morals and Dogma you need to have had a history lession on what was going on in politics and society and how grammer was used at the time.  What he wrote if read using the twisted meaning of today may sound odd.  This is just like all works when you have to understand the meanings of words at the time they are writen.


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## rebis (Apr 3, 2014)

Here is Pike's history and background as described be an extraordinary man...Manly Palmer Hall...please listen to it, as you will find it very informative:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QAUUkoX2Rk


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Apr 3, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> I'm reading Morals and Dogma now. Though he's very wordy, I haven't ran across anything that has set off my BS detector. In fact, it's been an enjoyable read so far. So I guess I just haven't made it to the nut job fodder yet, whatever it may be.


If you are literate (as in "well read") enough, you're likely to blow right past it. :001_smile:


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## Brother_Steve (Apr 3, 2014)

It is the mark of an educated man to entertain a thought without having to accept it. - Aristotle.

Read the books. Form your own opinion, if any is needed. You do not need to conform to his views on Masonry.

Having said that, I think Pike is a double edged sword.

He did well by Masons but not so well by arming the profane.

A little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous.
​


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## cacarter (Apr 4, 2014)

I have no doubt that Albert Pike was a genius in compiling and writing Morals & Dogma.  Like it has been mentioned already, many of his writings are now taken out of context by nut jobs looking to showcase the Craft as the work of the devil, Lucifer, or whatever other evil spirit we supposedly worship.  

I've seen other instances where detractors will use Pike's own life against him--and by extension attack Freemasonry, because they mistakenly think that Pike is the end all, be all, patron saint and prophet of Freemasonry.  The two biggest instances I can think of are his service as a brigadier general in the Confederate army and his alleged membership (and possible leadership role) in the KKK.  I'm a firm believer that a man should only be judged under the context of his own time in history, but those who are looking for any ammunition to attack the fraternity likely do not care.


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## Companion Joe (Apr 4, 2014)

Pike is the only Confederate general memorialized with a statue in Washington D.C.


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## Brother JC (Apr 4, 2014)

Companion Joe said:


> Pike is the only Confederate general memorialized with a statue in Washington D.C.



Actually, the only one with an outdoor statue. Robert E Lee also has a statue in DC.


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## rebis (Apr 4, 2014)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> If you are literate (as in "well read") enough, you're likely to blow right past it. :001_smile:


Ditto


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Apr 5, 2014)

Pike was an extraordinary man to which Freemasonry, not just SR Freemasonry owes a great debt.  Albert Pike's SR damn near rescued Masonry from the massive decimation of the anti-Masonic period and made it, to some degree, to be "cool" to be a Mason again.  There are more than 700 unpublished works of Pike's at the House of the Temple, many of which are the only English versions of ancient archaic text in the world to this date.  

Morals and Dogma has an annotated version and I recommend it.  More than that, Esoterika is a phenomenal read and I recommend it to every Mason.  

Pike had the courage that most of us lack these days, he speculated out loud.  We don't do that anymore because people pile on and beat down ideas as they form, so we hide them, covet them and dispose of them if we can't find a footnote that proves our point.


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## jjjjjggggg (Apr 5, 2014)

Brother Porter... spot on!!!


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## rebis (Apr 5, 2014)

Very well said brother.


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## Mindovermatter Ace (Apr 5, 2014)

To touch on the brother's question of the baphomet, it didn't come from the taxil hoax. Leo taxil attached the picture that was drawn a few years prior and associated it to baphomet and masonry. The word baphomet was first used during the trial of the Templars. King Philip IV of France accused them of heresy and worship of the baphomet. 


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## dano2880 (Apr 6, 2014)

Baphomet came from an former rc priest eilphas levi it was only a symbol of male and female sexual union with christian symbols as well with the arms of baphomet one up one down as above so below ect.

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## dano2880 (Apr 6, 2014)

It came from his book transindental magic

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## BryanMaloney (Apr 6, 2014)

Mike Martin said:


> "The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite uses the word "Dogma" in its true sense, of doctrine, or teaching; and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term."



It is all well and good for the learned and respectable gentlemen to say this, but they do so as a futile and foolish gesture. Even in their own time, "dogma" was already attached to "the odious sense" far more than it was to any alleged "true sense". One might as well write a book about "girls" and have it actually be about children of either gender, but all below a certain age. After all, using the same criterion as for "dogma", "girl" once meant a child of either gender below a certain age. And is the "villain" of a work merely a non-free agricultural tenant? "Villain" originally meant "serf", after all. Walk up to a woman, smile at her, and say "I wish to have intercourse with you right here." After she punches/maces/calls the cops on you, explain that you were using "intercourse" in its "true sense" of "conversation", not the "odious sense" that has been attached to it more recently.

If the publishers felt a need to make excuses about the use of "dogma" even that far back, perhaps "dogma" was an extremely bad choice of terms. The poor rhetor blames the audience for all faults in understanding his message.


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## BryanMaloney (Apr 6, 2014)

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> Pike had the courage that most of us lack these days, he speculated out loud.  We don't do that anymore because people pile on and beat down ideas as they form, so we hide them, covet them and dispose of them if we can't find a footnote that proves our point.



Why not just honestly mark speculation as speculation and not pretend it to be anything else, then? Let the pile-on begin. After all, if one has honestly set out where one is speculating, then there is nothing to fear, no accusation of dishonesty can stand. What I have seen, even in the present day, is that people very often refuse to admit that their speculations are speculative, since that might open the possibility that they (the people in question) don't actually exist, either? At least that's my speculation as to why people defend speculation so heavily and deride honest citation.


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## MarkR (Apr 7, 2014)

Mindovermatter Ace said:


> To touch on the brother's question of the baphomet, it didn't come from the taxil hoax. Leo taxil attached the picture that was drawn a few years prior and associated it to baphomet and masonry. The word baphomet was first used during the trial of the Templars. King Philip IV of France accused them of heresy and worship of the baphomet.
> 
> 
> Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


Thank you for clarifying brother.  What I meant was the Baphomet connection to Freemasonry came from the Taxil hoax, but I didn't say that clearly.


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Apr 7, 2014)

Bryan,

Pikes work was in keeping with the tradition of the times as far as citation goes.  I am not certain what you mean by, "Why not just honestly mark speculation as speculation and not pretend it to be anything else, then?"  How do you "mark" speculation as "speculation?"  What is dishonestly speculating versus honestly speculating?


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## dfreybur (Apr 7, 2014)

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> Pikes work was in keeping with the tradition of the times as far as citation goes.  I am not certain what you mean by, "Why not just honestly mark speculation as speculation and not pretend it to be anything else, then?"  How do you "mark" speculation as "speculation?"  What is dishonestly speculating versus honestly speculating?



Fact -

The rules of reference were different at the time.

Speculation -

Scholars at the time would have been able to tell easily what was speculation in the work.

Tentative conclusion -

The changing rules of references have made it harder over time to tell what is speculation and what is now.

Maybe my labeling above should be inserted as notes in the annotated version.


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## BryanMaloney (Apr 8, 2014)

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> Bryan,
> 
> Pikes work was in keeping with the tradition of the times as far as citation goes.  I am not certain what you mean by, "Why not just honestly mark speculation as speculation and not pretend it to be anything else, then?"  How do you "mark" speculation as "speculation?"  What is dishonestly speculating versus honestly speculating?



Leaping from the immediately sourced to speculation without having the honesty to note which is which. In Pike's day, as as been noted, there was a presumption that everyone could immediately recognize sourced material and presume the rest was speculation. Today, that is not the case.

Any work written in the present day that could begin to qualify as scholarly follows certain conventions, which can be looked up, for example, in the "Instructions to Authors" for multiple scientific journals. Statements that are not immediately marked with a citation are to be presumed to be the author's own and not necessarily supported by other sources, although the author could attempt to show how one follows from the other.


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Apr 9, 2014)

Bryan you didn't answer my questions.  If you don't like Pike fine.  My guess is that you have never taken the time to read more than a sound bite.


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## jvarnell (Apr 10, 2014)

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> Bryan,
> 
> Pikes work was in keeping with the tradition of the times as far as citation goes.  I am not certain what you mean by, "Why not just honestly mark speculation as speculation and not pretend it to be anything else, then?"  How do you "mark" speculation as "speculation?"  What is dishonestly speculating versus honestly speculating?


You call it a theory ....... lol


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## BryanMaloney (Apr 10, 2014)

jvarnell said:


> You call it a theory ....... lol



Look. I have a stalker.


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## jvarnell (Apr 10, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> Look. I have a stalker.


I read all these threads so I guess if you are a thread yes.


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## Dpranch11 (Apr 20, 2014)

Seriously? No disrespect to anyone but regardless of intelligence, theory or whatever else you can come up with because at the end of the day he was nothing more than a racist. Adolph Hitler had good attributes also but we saw what happened to our Jewish brethren and more.Today in the south brothers aren't even recognized. Why? We throw many reasons and nonsense when the real out in your face reason is race. Don't go all it doesn't exist because I personally ran across many I wonder how in GODS good grace are ya'll Masons in the first place other than a social club to hold a title.The words straight from Mr. Albert Pike reads as follow....In a letter by General Albert Pike to his brother in 1875 he said, "I am not inclined to mettle in the matter. I took my obligations to white men, not to Negroes. When I have to accept Negroes as brothers or leave Masonry, I shall leave it.. Lets stop putting on rose tinted glasses and work towards bringing this fraternal order we all love and respect into what it should be and not forget how good and pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in peace.The offended will be offended the enlightened will wake up to the truth. 
Fraternally,
Demitrius N. Daniels
PIKES PEAK LODGE # 5 F&AM (PHA) MM


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## tldubb (Apr 20, 2014)

Brother Demitrius you are spot on!

Todd L. Wilson, Junior Deacon
Clarence C. Kittrell, #149 ( PHA )
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

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## rebis (Apr 20, 2014)

When passing judgement like that, it is important to take the time period into consideration. Times were different back then in the south...everybody was a racist. Freemasonry in America was in the dark ages, and Albert Pike was a huge contributor to resurrecting the fraternity. All masons, wether we like him or not, owe him a great debt of gratitude.


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## Dpranch11 (Apr 20, 2014)

Brother rebis. You are wrong on so many accounts. Call it for what it is. That's the problem today within the order more especially the south. To say all people from those ages were racist? I won't even go there better to let history tell you better. He did what? Are you serious ? This fraternal order would of stood with or without him or any of us for that matter. No man is a mountain even though we put them on pedestals. I'm not here to judge our brethren but I'm all about shedding light and knowledge on situations. The man who stands for nothing will fall for everything and anything. No disrespect to you or others who hold a Mr.Albert Pike to being a great Mason and for starters I wasn't discrediting the man I was simply stating a truth and like they say the truth hurts.Have a blessed and prosperous day. We are all open to our own opinions but when those opinions are stated out loud be prepared to deal with whatever may come your way whether good or bad. Again no need to look at this through rose tinted glasses.

Fraternally,
Demitrius N. Daniels
PIKES PEAK LODGE #5 (PHA) MM
Colorado Springs,Co


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## Dpranch11 (Apr 20, 2014)

Just because it sounds or feels good to you doesn't mean it's right or good for you.


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## rebis (Apr 21, 2014)

Ad hominem.


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## Dpranch11 (Apr 21, 2014)

Mendacium....Where there's no fuel there's no fire.


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## jjjjjggggg (Apr 21, 2014)

It's the same with the founding fathers... no one can sugar coat that many of them, though masons, did own slaves. It's a dark part of our history, but what is worse is that there are those who still perpetuate racism even still today within the lodges.

One brother shared a story with me about how when he petitioned a lodge, because of his Native American heritage and darker skin tone, it was suggested he consider the Prince Hall lodge. 

Though prince hall has a rich heritage and I in no way believe they should disband, I am saddened that there was even a need for them because if regular lodges were living the ideals of freemasonry, they would have never been needed. 

The fact that we still can't meet as brothers on the level speaks volumes... and freemasonry will continue to decline because the younger generation sees the hypocrisy. 

It's time for brothers to start making more noise... like brother Charles Harper.




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## MRichard (Apr 21, 2014)

jamie.guinn said:


> It's the same with the founding fathers... no one can sugar coat that many of them, though masons, did own slaves. It's a dark part of our history, but what is worse is that there are those who still perpetuate racism even still today within the lodges.
> 
> One brother shared a story with me about how when he petitioned a lodge, because of his Native American heritage and darker skin tone, it was suggested he consider the Prince Hall lodge.
> 
> ...



Not a mason yet but that was a great post.


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## Mindovermatter Ace (Apr 21, 2014)

I agree with brother Regis. You have to understand that at that time slavery was the norm. We give honor to many men not just in masonry who owned slaves. Did you ever consider the actual free black men who owned slaves as well during that time in history? Knowing this how can you judge?


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## tldubb (Apr 21, 2014)

Wow are you serious....blacks that owned slaves....name them. Well on second thought what does that have to do with the discussion question.....nothing at all. Mindovermatter..really you should get with your Grand Lodge historian and get educated on what Prince Hall was all about. If it is so much about the past go attend a meeting in GL of LA...oh you can't get real....it's not judging but the truth. 

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## BryanMaloney (Apr 21, 2014)

While off topic, the question was asked:
http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2013/03/black_slave_owners_did_they_exist.html


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## dfreybur (Apr 21, 2014)

rebis said:


> When passing judgement like that, it is important to take the time period into consideration. Times were different back then in the south...everybody was a racist. Freemasonry in America was in the dark ages, and Albert Pike was a huge contributor to resurrecting the fraternity. All masons, wether we like him or not, owe him a great debt of gratitude.



I try to remember the flaws and the nobilities.  Think of Patton and Rommel - Two opponents who respected each other even though they were at war with each other and served masters who were intractable enemies.  Patton and Rommel were able to separate out their own sides and feelings in their assessments of each other.  That's an approach I think worthy of all emulation.

Do I buy into the theory that everyone in Pike's era was a racist?  I do not but I also don't think that's relevant in this instance.

Do I buy into the theory that all of Pike's Masonic accomplishments are annulled because he was a known racist?  That's a different matter and I do not think so.  I understand that after the Civil War he spent much of the rest of his life building our fraternity as best he could given his flaws.  I don't understand why the AASR-SJ remains so impressed with him.  I find it easier to be at peace with the memory of Rommel thanks to Patton's example than to be at peace with the memory of Pike for lack of such example, but I do try to emulate that good example.

I figure I hold some stance that future generations will find reprehensible, whatever it is that turns up in future generation.  I hope they will forgive me my stance and remember my small contributions in the context of my time.


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## tldubb (Apr 21, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> While off topic, the question was asked:
> http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2013/03/black_slave_owners_did_they_exist.html



So what! What black slave owners wrote or signed the constitution. ..Get real!!

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## tldubb (Apr 21, 2014)

Pike was a racist and a white supremist. .don't blame it on the time period because that is a sorry excuse..it is the mean reason why Prince Hall masonry exists and thank good for that!

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## RyanC (Apr 21, 2014)

No matter how much we dislike the past we can not change it, only right now and the future can we correct the wrongs of yesterday.


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## Dpranch11 (Apr 21, 2014)

Brother RyanC your correct.Brother Mindovermatter Ace..Astounded by your theory there...Brother tldubb ,appreciate bringing the brother up to speed.Spot on. I almost fell out my chair. My parents marched with Martin Luther King in Albany,Ga back in the day anyways back on topic. Brother jamie.guinn I was almost disturbed by your statement until you answered the question and I read more into what you were saying.Because the brother ,Mr.Pike didn't live it though he spoke it well like many brothers on both sides.Like the religious man who can tell you all about the Bible but it has no effect on him personally still playing with his demons.Get the point? A divided house will not stand and yes hypocrisy is an evil double edged sword. We as Masons stand on morals and when you take that away I will no longer would want to be in a social club of hate,contention and living in the past while dying in the future. How can you defend a man who is morally dead unless your as how they say two of a kind? Exactly you can't. Numerous big words and his accomplishments or mental tact in Masonry can't excuse what he is and the question was is he more harm or good.Any Mason worth his salt will call it for what it is.  I see many other of you brothers defending a morally dead man. What does that say of yourself and our craft? Do you think because a man has helped the cause but yet hates his brother a success story? An open racist he was and died just the same. The truth has fallen many of a man greater than him or any of us for that matter. By what? That littlest member between our cheeks. A great destroyer of man. Just run out there and spout something stupid if your a man of position and see how well you fare. Not good so don't do it.Again I say...Behold how good and pleasant is it for brethren to dwell together in peace and if we are a craft ruled by the Bible let us not forget that includes the black,white,brown and yellow. Hopefully when my child enters the craft it'll be different. I pray. All have a blessed and prosperous day and may the best of your todays be the worst of your tomorrows....SMIB

Fraternally,
Demitrius N. Daniels
PIKES PEAK LODGE #5 F.&A.M.(PHA/MM)
Colorado Springs,Co


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## jjjjjggggg (Apr 22, 2014)

Dpranch,
Glad you stuck through what I was trying to say.... I was in NO way defending pike or institutional racism... quite the opposite. I just wished that American masonry would have got it right from the beginning... Just imagine how much further down the road we'd be if masons who have stepped up.


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## Michael Hatley (Apr 22, 2014)

Companion Joe said:


> I'm personally more of an Albert Mackey guy myself.



Same here.  

I am a Scottish Rite Mason, as many here are, and in the southern jurisdiction.  Personally, I do not revere Pike as some do.  I don't despise him either.  He was obviously a brilliant man, but I wish more folks were genuinely interested in primary sources.  There is, in one man's opinion, more substance to be found there.   I do not need or require the lily to be gilded, and I fear the gilding prevents many from smelling the flowers themselves.   In short I think much of his prose is ostentatious, and serve to obfuscate as much as enlighten.

That doesn't prevent me from reading and admiring his works, and benefiting from them of course.   Dickens was a hyperbolic sentimentalist, but his writings are undeniably excellent, Thoreau was in essence a lazy man but wise, and Whitman was a pacifist reprobate (from a certain point of view) but perhaps our country's most gifted poet.  You've got to decide which things they and many others were right about and which they might not have been, and amalgamate your own view of God, the world, and our place in it in my opinion.

Personally I'd pick Twain over Pike in a heartbeat if I were time traveling, you can bet he would be better company


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## Michael Hatley (Apr 22, 2014)

Thats Pikian for "hippie" Bro :24:


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## jvarnell (Apr 23, 2014)

Dpranch11 said:


> Brother RyanC your correct.Brother Mindovermatter Ace..Astounded by your theory there...Brother tldubb ,appreciate bringing the brother up to speed.Spot on. I almost fell out my chair. My parents marched with Martin Luther King in Albany,Ga back in the day anyways back on topic. Brother jamie.guinn I was almost disturbed by your statement until you answered the question and I read more into what you were saying.Because the brother ,Mr.Pike didn't live it though he spoke it well like many brothers on both sides.Like the religious man who can tell you all about the Bible but it has no effect on him personally still playing with his demons.Get the point? A divided house will not stand and yes hypocrisy is an evil double edged sword. We as Masons stand on morals and when you take that away I will no longer would want to be in a social club of hate,contention and living in the past while dying in the future. How can you defend a man who is morally dead unless your as how they say two of a kind? Exactly you can't. Numerous big words and his accomplishments or mental tact in Masonry can't excuse what he is and the question was is he more harm or good.Any Mason worth his salt will call it for what it is.  I see many other of you brothers defending a morally dead man. What does that say of yourself and our craft? Do you think because a man has helped the cause but yet hates his brother a success story? An open racist he was and died just the same. The truth has fallen many of a man greater than him or any of us for that matter. By what? That littlest member between our cheeks. A great destroyer of man. Just run out there and spout something stupid if your a man of position and see how well you fare. Not good so don't do it.Again I say...Behold how good and pleasant is it for brethren to dwell together in peace and if we are a craft ruled by the Bible let us not forget that includes the black,white,brown and yellow. Hopefully when my child enters the craft it'll be different. I pray. All have a blessed and prosperous day and may the best of your todays be the worst of your tomorrows....SMIB
> 
> Fraternally,
> Demitrius N. Daniels
> ...



No one should ever throw out good with the bad.  They should learn from the good and disavow the bad parts of everyone.  Nothing is a binary argument like that.  Albert Pike had a lot of good to say.


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## BroBook (Apr 23, 2014)

Have only looked at bits and pieces of Morals & Dogma, so can't judge that being racist " might" be a sin but one is no better/worse than any other the penalty for it is death unless... In closing " anyone that does not know that everyone has flaws has serious flaws" The Hebrew!!!


Bro Book


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## jvarnell (Apr 23, 2014)

The word racist is used as a bad word toward someone and saying one is a racist without knowing their hart is racist in it self.  I hope we all learn to work on the level.


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## Dpranch11 (Apr 23, 2014)

Brothers. No need to quarrel a matter and when two sides can't agree then the best thing to do indeed is to remember our oath. On this line considering profane are here and lower level alike in no disrespect to brethren as we all are equal before THE GREAT DEITY.  We are all to work on ourselves as deemed while we are alive on this plan of existence. All have a blessed and prosperous day and open our perceptions to broader light.

Demitrius N. Daniels 
PIKES PEAK LODGE #5 F.&A.M.
Colorado Springs,CO


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## rebis (Apr 23, 2014)

Can we all please get back to the original topic?...which is actually interesting.

What do we think about the works and contributions of Albert Pike towards the fraternity? 

Did he elevate us as masons or did he do more damage than good?

It would be helpful if you are somewhat familiar with his work in order for your response to carry value.


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## BryanMaloney (Apr 24, 2014)

Pike is well-read and respected by Masons. Masons feel the need to "explain" Pike to the public, to downplay his actual authority, and even to, in detail, illlustrate that his work does not determine Masonic beliefs.

I'd say that Pike is a mixed bag, and blaming "ignorance" on the part of the public is silly. The poor workman blames the tools. The poor rhetor blames the audience.


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## jvarnell (Apr 24, 2014)

BryanMaloney said:


> Pike is well-read and respected by Masons. Masons feel the need to "explain" Pike to the public, to downplay his actual authority, and even to, in detail, illlustrate that his work does not determine Masonic beliefs.
> 
> I'd say that Pike is a mixed bag, and blaming "ignorance" on the part of the public is silly. The poor workman blames the tools. The poor rhetor blames the audience.


This was the best explanation of the thread.


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## Dpranch11 (Apr 24, 2014)

Want to start an argument ?....State an opinion or  worse the truth and see how many hit dogs will bark.


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## brother josh (Apr 24, 2014)

Do you know when pike made that statement who knows maybe his views on African Americans in freemasonry change as he got old (i don't know if it did I'm just raising a question) but maybe freemasonry help to change his rascial views the bad part about this is pike himself is not alive to really give us the right answer on HIS views old age and the thought of ones own death tend to shed light and knowledge 


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## tldubb (Apr 24, 2014)

I look at it look at it like this. ..I'm a Prince Hall Mason. Pike,  does not even come to the level of Worshipful Bro. Prince Hall, he is a non factor on the PHA branch of Freemasonry. . Not a positive or negative on the growth of Prince Hall masonry. We still survived against all odds. .so the question is more harm than good?  How about zero nothing!

Bro. Todd L. Wilson, Junior Deacon
Clar

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## cacarter (Apr 24, 2014)

Tldubb, a question since I don't know much of anything about the workings of Prince Hall masonry. Does PHA Scottish Rite use Morals & Dogma in their teachings?


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## brother josh (Apr 24, 2014)

Do you know when pike made that statement who knows maybe his views on African Americans in freemasonry change as he got old (i don't know if it did I'm just raising a question) but maybe freemasonry help to change his rascial views the bad part about this is pike himself is not alive to really give us the right answer on HIS views old age and the thought of ones own death tend to shed light and knowledge 


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## jjjjjggggg (Apr 24, 2014)

I mean no disrespect to my Christian/Jewish brothers, but I personally have some issues with several of the verses found in the bible. The bible takes some stances in topics that I don't agree with. However, I do find some inspiration found within its pages, on par with other religious and philosophical texts, all of whose writers have their own colorful backgrounds. It's the same with pike and his morals and dogma.

As my uncle, a pentacostal preacher, once told me... eat the meat and spit out the bones.


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## BroBook (Apr 24, 2014)

Tongue on cheek "which parts of the Great Light" all have ....


Bro Book


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## rebis (Apr 24, 2014)

Brother Wilson, is there some literature by Bro. Prince Hall that you would recommend?


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## BryanMaloney (Apr 25, 2014)

I tracked down the full letter in which Pike made his racist comment. It's strange letter:



> ALEXANDRIA, Va., 13th September, 1875.
> 
> MY DEAR FRIEND AND BROTHER.-I can see as plainly as you that the negro  question is going to make trouble. There are plenty of regular  negro  Masons and negro lodges in South America and the West Indies, and our  folks only stave off the question by saying that negro Masons here are  clandestine. Prince Hall Lodge was as regular a Lodge as any lodge  created by competent authority, and had a perfect right (as other lodge  in Europe did) to establish other lodges, making itself a mother Lodge.  That's the way the Berlin lodges, Three Globes and Royal York, became  Grand Lodges.
> The Grand Orient of Hayti is as regular as any other. So is the Grand  Orient of the Dominican Republic, which, I dare say, has negroes in it  and negro lodges under it.
> ...



What I see in this is that Pike is unhappily acknowledging that some GL or another will recognize the Prince Hall establishment at some time in the future. He sees it as inevitable. He also hates the idea. He makes it plain that accepting "negroes" will bring Masonry "down to their level". He states that "negro assocation" is "leprosy" and that "negro association" will cause Masonry to "topple, and go over".

The letter is from 1875, so he had roughly 20 years of life after that. While one MIGHT be able to pull up an unsubstantiated excuse the Pike MIGHT have changed his mind later, there's no evidence either way. Pike made his opinion of "negroes" quite clear and quite unmistakeable. The letter is quoted in Upton's "Negro Masonry..."


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## jjjjjggggg (Apr 25, 2014)

One thing for sure about Pike, he sure liked to listen to himself talk!


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## memphisrite (May 5, 2014)

nfasson said:


> Did Baphomet come from Pike?



As far as Im informed, Baphomet was created by Eliphas Levi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliphas_Levi), a french occultist... 

Im my Opinion Pike was a great military man... but some masons take his dogmas as the absolute truth.


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## rebis (May 5, 2014)

Bottom line.
Pike rewrote the 4th through the 32nd degrees of the Scottish Rite.

If he adds no value to masonry, then the Scottish Rite adds no value to masonry...and my friends and brothers, that is most certainly not the case.

The degrees of the Scottish Rite are superb, sublime and inestimable.





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## jvarnell (May 6, 2014)

rebis said:


> Bottom line.
> Pike rewrote the 4th through the 32nd degrees of the Scottish Rite.
> 
> If he adds no value to masonry, then the Scottish Rite adds no value to masonry...and my friends and brothers, that is most certainly not the case.
> ...


One thing I do see is that Pike did make me think more of the words used in his day.  I reread some of his work and for 3 things I had to go to the Websters Dictionary of 1828 to really understand what was said.  Does any one have that dictionary in a PDF or word document so I can make it searchable.

This is why I think Morals and Dogma doesn't mean anything to younger masons who have not had time for the meaning to sink in.  The only harm is that most non-masons will read his stuff without information baking it up and the usage of word in his time.


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## BryanMaloney (May 9, 2014)

jvarnell said:


> This is why I think Morals and Dogma doesn't mean anything to younger masons who have not had time for the meaning to sink in.  The only harm is that most non-masons will read his stuff without information baking it up and the usage of word in his time.



Heh--kind of like trying to do exegesis with only a KJV. You've got to have context beyond the one volume. If you don't, you will get lost.


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