# Anti-Masonic Sentiment in the Church??



## Michaelstedman81 (May 5, 2011)

I think that I have read a thing or two on here or on another forum lately about this, but haven't ever experienced this firsthand until today and I am curious how to handle it when it comes up in the near future which I know that it will.  Here is the story:

I have been going through a really rough time lately and made the decision to get back into the path of walking closer with God as I have started to feel a real seperation from Him during all of this.  Being in a new area, I figured that it was the perfect time for me to find a new Church and begin that journey.

The Church is non denominational and I met with the Men's group this past Monday night.  I informed one of the men that seemed very spiritually smart about my situation.  He was more than glad to talk to me and look forward to lending me a hand and get me started again with my walk with God.  Yesterday, he had given me a book to read and wanted me to meet with him to "confess and repent" to start my internal healing from Iraq and all this I was going through.  

Today, he called to check up on me and see how I was doing.  He asked what my son's name was and I told him.  He asked me if there was someone with that name in my family and I told him no and that I had chosen that name cause I liked the name and I was a Freemason and it was symbolic to me.  He seemed very interested in my Masonic activity and asked me how long I had been involved in Masonry.

The conversation started going a different way and I told him that one of my plans for moving here was to get more involved with the Masonic lodges here in the area, but have had a hard time with motiviation due to the hardship I am going through.  He then asked me to hold off on getting back involved with the Masonic lodge until I could get through the book and have our "personal discussion".  He said a couple of other things asking me to "not get involved with the Masons" at least till after he gets a chance to sit down and talk with me.

Granted, I don't know the future but from the tone in his voice and the things that he was saying and how hard he was pushing me to avoid the Masonic stuff till he can talk to me in person, I really got the feeling that he is going to try to convince me to leave the organization or that it is un Godly to be part of it.  What am I supposed to do here?

I really highly doubt that I am going to be able to change his mind or views on Masonry, but I also don't really want to be shunned from the Church.  Should I just try to find another Church and hide the fact that I am a Mason from them?  It is kind of sad to me that a man that wants to worship with a group feels like he might be turned away just because he is part of an organization that that group does not know about or understand.  Should I head this off and just tell the guy that I feel like he is going to come at me with something anti-Masonic and that I would rather not talk about it as I am there to be closer to God?

Any ideas or suggestions?


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## Zack (May 5, 2011)

Pray for guidance, search your heart and make a decision.
It is not necessary for me to meet with someone and "confess and repent."  That is between me and my God.  I need no intermediary.
Be wary my Brother.
IMO.


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## Bro. Brad Marrs (May 5, 2011)

Trust your gut.

I think there are many churches that will accept you for who you are and will not blink an eye at your involvement in Freemasonry. I would move on and find a place that feels right; then tell the clergy you are a Mason upfront.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (May 5, 2011)

Brother, 
In my experience, you are much more likely to find the kind of support you are looking for amongst your Brother Freemasons than you will in that church, especially if the individual you've described is at all representative of that community. That's not to say that we're going to have the level of religious guidance and fellowship that you are seeking, just that we're not going to offer up ignorance and judgement the way this guy has while pretending that it's loving support. 

Whatever problems you face, it will be up to you to find ways to deal with them. Leaning on the shoulders of others, when necessary, is very often one of those ways. Pick the right shoulders, Brother.


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## AAJ (May 5, 2011)

I think it would be easy to label this brother (because aren't we all brothers and sisters under God?) as "anti-Masonic" and run to find another church, and if you feel uncomfortable there then you are fully justified in doing just that.  However, it might just be that he is laboring under some misinformation that you can correct, or that he is not representative of the church in general.  If I were in your position, I would have that discussion with him, making sure to preface it by saying something to the effect of "From the tone of your previous comments, I suspect that you are not very favorable towards Freemasonry.  I don't want to argue with you, but I would like to hear what you have to say, and since there is a lot of misinformation about Freemasonry floating around out there, I would be happy to correct any information that you have that is incorrect".

If he is willing to change his own thoughts about Freemasonry, then maybe you have a place in that church.  On the other hand, if he is too proud to admit that he might not be correct then that would probably not be the right place for you.  Also, make sure that his opinions are representative of the church as a whole.  It would be a shame if you formed your opinion of that organization based on the crackpot theories of one over-zealous member.  And remember the charge to not argue with those who mock Masonry from ignorance.


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## robert leachman (May 5, 2011)

Above sounds like a great idea!
Might also consider just asking the Senior Pastor what his/this church's position on Masonry is?


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## Benton (May 5, 2011)

robert leachman said:


> Might also consider just asking the Senior Pastor what his/this church's position on Masonry is?



That's probably sound advice. Some churches are more accepting than others. Better to get it straight from the source, find out if the church as a whole isn't fond of Masonry, or if it's just one individual acting on his own.


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## Brent Heilman (May 5, 2011)

I know in my Church some people are not as willing to accept Masonry, but as of right now there are 2 of us that are. There was one other person but has since passed away who was a PM of his hometown Lodge and a 52 year member of the Fraternity. There are a few people that know I am involved but I am criticized for it. My Pastor lives across the street from our current WM and sees me over there twice a week while I am working on my memory work. 

If it was me I would go to the top and bluntly ask them their stance and if it doesn't correspond to your beliefs move and find one that does.


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## Jacob Johnson (May 5, 2011)

All of the above are good suggestions. I think that I'd probably go with talking with the pastor. Make sure and ask the CHURCH'S position, or you'll likely get the PASTOR'S position. Most churches in the US have a book that states the church's official position on a whole range of topics. Unfortunately, it's usually the clergy and MAYBE a few others who are familiar with it. The rest of the congregation may not even know it exists, or they don't consult with it before giving counsel. In the Methodist church, it's called the "Book of Discipline". I would take a look at the text that corresponds to that, and read the entire article on Masonry. 

But, in the event that the church as a whole DOES in fact take a negative view of the Craft, I would definitely start looking elsewhere. There are plenty of denominations that are friendly towards Freemasonry, and I personally know a few masons who are also clergy. I hope this is of help! Please do keep us updated.


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## Beathard (May 5, 2011)

You will find more antimasonic views in nondenominational churches than in mainstream churches. They are usually more fundamental in their beliefs and less accepting of other ideologies. Of course this is a very general statement and there are exceptions.


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## davidterrell80 (May 5, 2011)

I counsel you to remember that the minute contention ("anger") arises, the Holy Spirit flees. In that event, you might consider doing doing the same. 

My church (Latter-day Saint [Mormon]) takes the official position that the Craft is an honorable organization, but one that can demand large amounts of a man's time. So, I was counseled that as long as my family and religious obligations did not suffer, go. Have fun. Let your light shine forth and do good in the world.

David Terrell PM


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## Ol Kev (May 5, 2011)

davidterrell80 said:


> I counsel you to remember that the minute contention ("anger") arises, the Holy Spirit flees. In that event, you might consider doing doing the same.
> 
> My church (Latter-day Saint [Mormon]) takes the official position that *the Craft is an honorable organization, but one that can demand large amounts of a man's time. So, I was counseled that as long as my family and religious obligations did not suffer, go. Have fun. Let your light shine forth and do good in the world.*
> 
> David Terrell PM



For me, this is a sound position and one that is certainly consistent with the tenants of Freemasonry. If the person you talked to is truly anti-Masonry, which it seems he might be by asking you not to get involved in a new lodge, then in my view, there likely would be little to change his mind about it. Your local brothers could shine some light regarding the churches in your area. 

I would counsel you to think back upon what drew you to Freemasonry in the first place; what were you seeking and were/are you on the path to finding it? For me Freemasonry supplements and reinforces my faith and beliefs and does not substitute for them. This may be a deal that you have to turn over to your God and allow yourself to rediscover your desires for the fraternity and be guided to the proper church. Remember what we are taught to do before entering any important undertaking. First, seek peace in your deliberations and I am confident you will find your answers.


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## Beathard (May 5, 2011)

Ol Kev, thanks for the call to reflect. After a short period of reflection, I can definitely tell you that I wanted as a 25 year old is not what I got. I am not sure what I wanted was ever offered. I know that masonry made me a much better man and is giving me what I want now. I would not trade my path in masonry for anything. Well maybe Jennifer Lopez, nah... I'm happy with where masonry is taking me.


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## Michaelstedman81 (May 6, 2011)

First off, there were some REALLY great responses that are giving me a lot to think about.  Thank all of you Brothers that posted on here.  I knew that I would get a lot of great information from you all.  Only suprised and a bit disappointed that Bro. Tony hadn't posted something yet.  He always has soemthing great to say....lol



Zack said:


> It is not necessary for me to meet with someone and "confess and repent." That is between me and my God. I need no intermediary. Be wary my Brother.


 

You know, that is something that I thought about as well as soon as he said that to me when he was describing the program to me. The church is not Catholic, and...well it just struck me as odd when it came out from him. Thank you for pointing that out as I am glad that I am not the only one that noticed that. I think that I may need to ask a few more questions about this "program" that he is talking about and find out more about this church. It seems pretty legit to me and everything was about God, but maybe there is some things that I didn't pick up on...lol


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## Michaelstedman81 (May 6, 2011)

Bro. Brad Marrs said:


> Trust your gut.




Ah, a very good tactic.  I like that one.


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## Michaelstedman81 (May 6, 2011)

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> In my experience, you are much more likely to find the kind of support you are looking for amongst your Brother Freemasons than you will in that church, especially if the individual you've described is at all representative of that community



Yea, I think that some things that I could benefit from very well could come from my Masonic Brothers and that most likely this or other churchs can't really give to me.  On the other hand of what I am seeking, getting that spiritual guidance and religious fellowship is something that I could probably get better from a church organzation easier.


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## Michaelstedman81 (May 6, 2011)

AAJ said:


> However, it might just be that he is laboring under some misinformation that you can correct, or that he is not representative of the church in general. If I were in your position, I would have that discussion with him, making sure to preface it by saying




You know, I am sure that if he is anti-Masonic with as deeply involved with his beliefs are, I don't think that I will be able to change his views on Masonry.  I did meet some good guys up there and if at all possible, would like for that church to by my regular one that I go to.  So, I guess I can try to have the talk with him as you suggested and start out with something paraphrased from introduction you recommended.  If it does not change his mind about Masonry, I figure that I have one of two choices.  Just get up and thank them for the hospitality they had given me so far and say my good byes.  Or I could directly ask him if my being a Freemason will cause a conflict within the church or its members as we (being the people at the church) are there for the same purpose, to serve and worship God).  If he says it will be a conflict, then I can go ahead and leave and find another one down the road.



AAJ said:


> It would be a shame if you formed your opinion of that organization based on the crackpot theories of one over-zealous member.


 
Yea, another good point.  I would need to find out if the rest of the people feel the same way about it as he does.  The Men's group tends to meet regularly.  Do you think if I got up to speek and brought up the fact that I am a Mason and want to know from the group as a whole if there was any kind of conflict would work?  I kind of see there being some questions thrown out there bout Masonry, but I really don't know how it would really turn out...lol  What do you think about that idea?


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## Michaelstedman81 (May 6, 2011)

Jacob Johnson said:


> I think that I'd probably go with talking with the pastor




Yea, combining your post and a couple of the other posts, I think that I will more than likely end up doing is asking the Men's group thier thoughts on it and how they feel.  If they are all okay with it, then I will get to the Pastor and ask him what the Church's stance on it instead of his viewpoint.  I think that would cover the bases pretty well, right?  And I should have a better idea of whether or not I need to search for another place.


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## Michaelstedman81 (May 6, 2011)

Beathard said:


> You will find more antimasonic views in nondenominational churches than in mainstream churches.




Ya know, this really suprises me actually.  I kind of thought tha the nondenominational churches would be waaay more accepting of the Freemasons than any of the larger established churches...lol  THanks for posting that Beathard


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## Michaelstedman81 (May 6, 2011)

davidterrell80 said:


> My church (Latter-day Saint [Mormon]) takes the official position that the Craft is an honorable organization, but one that can demand large amounts of a man's time.




I would have to say that that doesn't sound too bad of a stance from a church on Masonry....lol


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## Michaelstedman81 (May 6, 2011)

Ol Kev said:


> there likely would be little to change his mind about it.




I do agree to this as well.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (May 6, 2011)

Michaelstedman81 said:


> I do agree to this as well.


 
So you're down to one critical consideration. Will this guy's views on Freemasonry interfere with you receiving from the church (_and it's community)_ what you are seeking or will they interfere with you being able to give to that community what you may feel you need to contribute? I'd put that one straight to the pastor. Maybe he's unaware that such attitudes exist amongst the leaders in his flock. Maybe he's the one propagating them. His answers, and maybe his insight, will probably make your decisions a lot easier.


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## Beathard (May 6, 2011)

My personal belief is you need to be right with God and yourself. That relationship us what is important on judgement day. If a church helps with that relationship it is a great place to be. If it causes a conflict, there are many other churches that would love to have a religious pillar of the community.


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## Bro. Bennett (May 6, 2011)

Bretheren, I would like to share a story about the Church I grew up in; This particular church in San Antonio had very strong anti-Masonic beliefs. My mother dragged us there while growing up, and we had many doctinal statements shoved down our throats while attending there. 
I witnessed a fine San Antonio Police officer demit after the leaders of this church counsel him against masonry. He had been a 25 year Brother. I heard my mother condemn her own brother, my uncle for his affiliation with his lodge in California. He at that time had just received a special lodge award, was a 32 Scottish Rite, York Rite Knight, Shriner, 33 year retired Bureau of Narcotics Enforcement officer, helicopter pilot for the CA BNE, and much more. This condemnation drove a wedge in their relationship, and caused years of hurt on his part.
I heard my mother condemn a neighbor for his role in giving of his time to raise thousands upon thousands of dollars to help the Shriners Hospital help one little boy who received burns to over 90 percent of his body, to have medical treatments to allow himm to walk again. 

I would have loved to have a mother that believed in our fraternity, and would have proudly petitioned years earlier had she been willing to listen to the truth. Sadly, I waited to petition until after her death in 2009, but only to keep peace with her and the family. 
To close this story, i'd like to say that there will always be naysayers, but what is in your heart, like mine will be the guide for you on your daily journey toward Light. I have no regrets about petitioning and have grown in my walk with my God each day since. So no matter what the churches may say, or the man or woman on the street, I know I will forever know the truth as I have interpreted it to be a devine message from the Almighty...


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## Brent Heilman (May 6, 2011)

Bro. Bennett said:


> i'd like to say that there will always be naysayers, but what is in your heart, like mine will be the guide for you on your daily journey toward Light. I have no regrets about petitioning and have grown in my walk with my God each day since. So no matter what the churches may say, or the man or woman on the street, I know I will forever know the truth as I have interpreted it to be a devine message from the Almighty...



Truer words could not be spoken. I am lucky with my family and church family that they are all accepting of the Fraternity. I have never heard one negative thing spoken about Masonry. I think that many times we encounter people who are close-minded about certain things. They have heard or read somewhere about something being bad or against God so instead of forming their own opinion through their own investigation they just take other people's opinions and make them their own. 

My Church is full of people that have been attending there since I was a toddler and hence are somewhat stuck in their ways. Recently I brought up the topic of giving our Church more of a modern appearance and increase our use of the internet. I was met with a mixed response for starting to design a web page. Many people thought that this was a bad thing because, as we all know, the internet is full of vile and filth. It was a battle between me (the younger generation) and the others (the older generation). In the end we came to an accord and that allowed me to proceed on with my page. I think that the same is true with many churches and Masonry. They only know what they read or heard and so contrary to the reality of truth they choose to believe in the fallacy that is portrayed on TV and books. 

You give sound advice in follow your heart. If your heart is true then you will follow a true path. All of us here found something we truly love and believe in not because of what we read. We weren't brainwashed into thinking that the Craft is of noble purpose to only find out that it is devil worship and too late couldn't escape it's terrible grasp. I, like everyone else here, are rational, morally sound people and I think that many people who bash Masonry would stop if they only took the time to look at it in a calm, rational manner. Any group of people that does the amount of good for their communities and the world around them cannot be a bad group. It is like saying that Jerry's Kids is demonic and that the MD foundation is just a front. No one in their right mind will ever believe it. 

I for one will not let someone else's opinion sway me. I found something that I never knew I needed until I found it. I will proudly say to anyone the I am a Mason and my deeds will reflect that so that others may truly know what it is we stand for and believe in. As Matthew 5:14-16 says " You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in Heaven." These are words that I take to heart and as much as they can be applied to our Christian lives they can be applied much in the same way in our Masonic lives.


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## Michaelstedman81 (May 7, 2011)

Today, I talked with another guy from the church that is in charge of the fellowship.  I voiced my concern to him that I really felt like the topic of my Masonic affiliation will come up from the other guy and that I was not looking forward to being shunned by the church or they all turn their backs on me.  I also did ask him if he knew of any church standing as a whole in regards to Freemasonry and he told me that he didn't really know of one, but he didn't know too much about Masonry either.  Although, in his voice you could here that it was something negative.

I figure what I am going to do is get a hold of the original guy and head it off.  I am going to tell him that I really felt like he had a strong concern for my Masonic activities and that I know that there is a widespread view in churches that is against Masonry.  I am going to ask him is there an official stance from the church on the subject. I am also going to tell him that I came to the church seeking spiritual guidance on getting back on track with walking a more Godly line and having God in my life more.  I will tell him that whether or not I am a Mason, I am a man that is wanting to walk closer with God and hopefully just because of a ring I wear or an organization that I am a member of, they will not turn thier backs to me and "judge" me as that is not what Christ would have his followers do.  Especially since they obviously do not know what the organization is about and has involved in it.  

I think that I am going to tell him that we can have our "talk" that is part of the program that I agreed to take part in for my internal healing, but I do not want to discuss the Freemasonry with him at all unless he actually has questions about it.  I will ask him and the Pastor of the church if I will be allowed to worship there if I continue being an active Mason, and if not, then I will simply not go back due to the ignorance.  I think in the mean time, I will be still be looking for another church anyhow as I don't think the men at this one will help me take the path closer to God, or at least they might not have the same drive to do so.  One Brother mentioned talking to some Brothers a lodge in the area and talk to them about where they go to church and maybe they can point me to a church that is a good fit.

If all else fails, I can find a new one and not even mention anything about my being a Freemason.  I guess I won't be wearing my ring to it and will need to get a new Bible cause the only one I got has the Square and Compasses on it...lol


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## Stephen (May 7, 2011)

Michaelstedman81 said:
			
		

> If all else fails, I can find a new one and not even mention anything about my being a Freemason.  I guess I won't be wearing my ring to it and will need to get a new Bible cause the only one I got has the Square and Compasses on it...lol



That is certainly a valid option, but I have chosen not to hide my affiliation to the fraternity. Naysayers, including people I may worship with, have to accept me in full. You should be proud of the light you have received.


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## Benton (May 7, 2011)

Sounds like a very sound course of action. Let us know how things turn out. I know that many people I know are automatically suspicious of Freemasonry, even though they couldn't tell you why. Because something you don't understand is automatically bad, right? 

Anyway, it sounds like you have a solid rational approach to the situation. I hope it turns out for the best, a positive situation, and not something ugly. Good luck.


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## Beathard (May 7, 2011)

Amen. Great plan!


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## tomasball (May 7, 2011)

I guess that's why I feel more comfortable in a "mainstream" church.  The doctrines and policies are well-known and agreed upon, and individuals don't get to inject their personal prejudices or "ideas" into the life of the congregation.  I do not believe that anti-masonry is really widespread in the churches out there, although I'm not aware if anyone has really put out a thorough study of the matter.  I wouldn't recommend settling in to any church family where you felt you had to conceal your masonic memebership.  I would no more belong to a church where the people frowned on masonry than I would belong to one that frowned on music.


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## Beathard (May 7, 2011)

Remember that their are only two entities that you must make happy: your god and that man in the mirror.


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## Ol Kev (May 7, 2011)

Beathard said:


> Remember that their are only two entities that you must make happy: your god and that man in the mirror.


 
THIS! . . . but don't forget your better half either . . .  :37:   :thumbup1:
Everybody here is pulling for you in your decision.


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## Stephen (May 7, 2011)

Beathard said:
			
		

> that man in the mirror.



Michael Jackson?


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## MikeMay (May 7, 2011)

Ol Kev said:


> THIS! . . . but don't forget your better half either . . .  :37:   :thumbup1:
> Everybody here is pulling for you in your decision.


 

That's right, the better half counts too...just ask her!


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## coachn (May 7, 2011)

Michaelstedman81 said:


> Today, I talked with another guy from the church that is in charge of the fellowship. I voiced my concern to him that I really felt like the topic of my Masonic affiliation will come up from the other guy and that I was not looking forward to being shunned by the church or they all turn their backs on me. I also did ask him if he knew of any church standing as a whole in regards to Freemasonry and he told me that he didn't really know of one, but he didn't know too much about Masonry either. Although, in his voice you could here that it was something negative.
> 
> I figure what I am going to do is get a hold of the original guy and head it off. I am going to tell him that I really felt like he had a strong concern for my Masonic activities and that I know that there is a widespread view in churches that is against Masonry. I am going to ask him is there an official stance from the church on the subject. I am also going to tell him that I came to the church seeking spiritual guidance on getting back on track with walking a more Godly line and having God in my life more. I will tell him that whether or not I am a Mason, I am a man that is wanting to walk closer with God and hopefully just because of a ring I wear or an organization that I am a member of, they will not turn thier backs to me and "judge" me as that is not what Christ would have his followers do. Especially since they obviously do not know what the organization is about and has involved in it.
> 
> ...


Brother,

From all that I see in your post, God IS working in your life. He is guiding your abilities to pick up on what is most important. He is connecting you to insights. He is showing you other options. He is revealing to you VERY early on what you need to know and do to direct yourself accordingly.

If this is _only the beginning of your journey_, BRACE YOURSELF! God IS already working miracles all around you. 

F&S,

Bro. Coach N


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## jwhoff (May 7, 2011)

Never hide yourself brother.  Your thoughts and opinions are as valid as any man's.  Know thyself.  Follow the light as you best see it.


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## jwhoff (May 7, 2011)

A final thought ... hopefully.

Churches are like masonic lodges ... they have much more important business than masonry and politics.  Ah, just swap religion for masonry and it should start to become clear what our job is.


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## Michaelstedman81 (May 8, 2011)

Thanks a lot, guys.  There were a LOT of wise words here.  Ya'll have helped to open my eyes and understand a few things that I didn't before hand.  So, thank you to everyone that posted on here.  Hopefully, I will get all this straightened out in the very near future.  Again, thanks everyone.


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## coachn (May 8, 2011)

Michaelstedman81 said:


> Thanks a lot, guys. There were a LOT of wise words here. Ya'll have helped to open my eyes and understand a few things that I didn't before hand. So, thank you to everyone that posted on here. Hopefully, I will get all this straightened out in the very near future. Again, thanks everyone.


(pppst!  does this mean drinks are on Brother Stedman?)


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## Jacob Johnson (May 8, 2011)

then round 2's on me!


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## robert leachman (May 8, 2011)

I would not hide my Masonic Identity from anyone!
If a church won't accept you because of that just move on.  I like the idea of asking other Masons where they go to church.


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## david918 (May 9, 2011)

I like the paper from brother Nelson King it kinda shuts  a lot of anti masons up: Dear anti-Mason:

It is not clear to me exactly how literally you may interpret the Word of God. This is obviously a matter of some importance, if we are going to attempt to communicate.

 I read in Genesis 17:10 that God tells us to mutilate our male children when they are eight days old. Do you agree?
 I read in Leviticus 20:13 that homosexuals shall be put to death. Do you agree?
 I read in Deuteronomy 14:8 that God tells us not to eat pork. Do you agree?
 I read in Deuteronomy 14:10 that God tells us not to eat clams, shrimp, or lobsters. Do you agree?
 I read in Deuteronomy 21: 18-21 that if you have a stubborn son you are to have him killed. Do you agree?
 I read in Deuteronomy 21:23 that murderers shall be put to death. Do you agree?
 I read in Deuteronomy 22:23 that a woman who is engaged and is not a virgin shall be killed. Do you agree?
 I read in Deuteronomy 22:24 that a rapist shall be put to death. Do you agree?
 I read in Deuteronomy 22:27-28 that is all right for a man to have sex with an unwed virgin, as long as he does not get caught, but if caught he must pay her money. Do you agree?
 I read in Deuteronomy 23:2 that a child born of an unwed mother, and her children's children's, children's, children's children's, children's, children's children's, children's, children's children, may not worship the Lord in Church. Do you agree?
 I read in Deuteronomy 24:7 that a thief should be killed. Do you agree?
 I read in Deuteronomy 25:5 that if your brother dies you are to bring his wife into your home and have sexual relations with her. Do you agree?
 I read in Micah 7:5 that husbands are to keep secrets from their wives. Do you agree?
 I read in Matthew 10:35 that Jesus says that he has come to set children against their parents. Do you agree?
 I read in Mark 10:11 that Jesus says that those who remarry after divorce are committing adultery. Do you agree?
 I read in Mark 16:16 that Jesus says that all Jews, Moslems, and Buddhists will be damned and go to hell. Do you agree?
 I read in 1 Corinthians 11:5-6 that women must wear hats in church. Do you agree?
 I read in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 that women are not allowed to speak in church, and that they should get all their information from their husbands. Do you agree?
 I read in 1 Timothy 2:9 that women are not to wear gold or pearls. Do you agree?

 Now if you agree to all of the above we may now continue our dialog.

Sincerely,
Nelson King


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## Benton (May 9, 2011)

Ha, good post David. Some of those are sort of taken out of context, but I see what they're getting at.

I've found that many arguments applied to Masonry can be applied to churches.

I mean, I can think of an organization that is religious in nature. It's private, and only members are allowed into the meetings. What they discuss is secret, and only members of the organization are allowed to know about the goings on of the meetings. They have weird cannibalistic rituals dating back thousands of years. They claim to have the key to salvation, the light of God, as if it can only come from them. What organization? The Administrative Council and body (by whatever name) of any protestant church. 

So yeah, most of the accusations are pretty ridiculous. People just want someone to hate, I suppose.


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## Michaelstedman81 (May 10, 2011)

Lol, wow.  That was a pretty interesting post there, Bro. David.

And with the topic of this thread, I figured I would update you guys on new events with the situation.  Today, I finally got to talk to the originally guy that gave me the feeling that I was going to be turned away because of my Masonic affiliation.  I told him that my intentions are to come closer to God which is why I came to him and the rest of the group there at the church.  I told him that I do understand that there is a lot of anti-Masonic feelings from church goers and that I could in what he said to me that he was one that harbored those kinds of ideas.  I told him that I am more than happy to listen to him when he wants to have the "talk" so that I can hear his concerns, but I wanted to know if I was going to get shunned or have thier backs turned to me because of my Masonic activity or passed.

I was suprised to hear his answer, but also not suprised.  He replied that he would never turn his back on a person because they were a Mason, but he would tell me that he doesn't agree with the choice to be one and that it was against God to be one.  He justed wanted to have the opportunity to talk with me as he "knows" and has a lot of information that the higher up part of Masonry is against God and against Christianity.  Lol, I put that word in quotes because he actually did say that.

Anyway, I told him that I am glad to hear that he is able to not turn his back on someone just because they are a Mason and would continue to try to help someone walk closer with Him even if they continued to be a Mason and that I would have the sit down talk with him to hear what he has to say.  Now, whether or not he intends to keep his word and be a person of guidance to the Lord for me when I say that I will not leave the Craft, I have no idea.  But I have been thinking about it and while I know that I will more than likely not ever be able to change his mind or views on Masonry, I think that I am going to tell him that if we are going to have the talk about Masonry, I would like it to be a two way conversation and allow me to ask questions and have input in the conversation as well.  I think that it is only fair and reasonable for him to allow that, and if he won't allow for that, I will not have the discussion with him about Masonry and just hope that he will continue to be there as a spiritual leader helping someone get closer to God.  If not, then I can go find another church.

I just think that it is funny that some people will say they "know" about things when they don't have a clue or have never been involved.  Then again, I have never been in the upper leadership of the Craft and have no clue if the guys are sitting up there laughing at the rest of us cause they have convinced us this is a good organization...lol  (I am totally joking about that last part....lol  I really don't think that is the case)


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## coachn (May 10, 2011)

A good man, even in "hell" surrounded by devils, is still a good man.  
A bad man, even in "heaven" surrounded by angels, is still a bad man.
How should we view men who believe the good among us are supporting bad?  Are they bad themselves or simply too engrossed by the shadows on the cave wall?
It is written that JC hung around with people who were supposedly viewed as bad by society.  I think that says a lot.  I also think that what was written should be better understood before one comes to a false conclusion.


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## Ol Kev (May 10, 2011)

Well, when he starts to tell you what he "knows" about Masonry, be sure and ask him his sources of this information and if he has personal knowledge of the facts or if it is hearsay. If it's hearsay, then ask him what the Bible says about gossip . . .


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## tomasball (May 10, 2011)

Yes, any mason who's been around a while has run into the guys, who "know" the masons are bad because they've read about "secrets" of the "upper level" masons that the rank and file don't know.  Does it ever occur to them that we've read the same garbage they have, and can see it's nonsense?  "There are big secrets the 33rds have, and you 3rd degree guys can't learn them, but I and all my friends read about them on the internet."  Tells you a lot about the intellectual integrity of a person who could believe that.

Having said that, I'd like to hijack the thread a bit to make another point.  There really are religions out there, whose members legitimately can't be masons.  Some hold that it is sinful to engage in corporate prayer with people of a different faith from yours.  Well, then, you can't be a mason.  Some hold that it is sinful to swear to anything.  Okay, then you can't be a mason.


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## Beathard (May 10, 2011)

Actually you can be a mason, but you might not want to remain a member of that religon...  Its a choice thing.  I haven't found anything in the Bible (my sacred book) that says to not to hang out and communicate with people that had different beliefs than me.  I cannot find anything that says a Christian (my faith) has to not communicate and fellowship with people that believe a little differently...as long as they believe in Christ they are golden.  It is the churches that started adding all of these other requirements not good old JC, and that is what he was preaching against!


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## Benton (May 10, 2011)

Beathard said:


> It is the churches that started adding all of these other requirements not good old JC, and that is what he was preaching against!



It's amazing how many Christians ignore the teachings of Christ.


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## MikeMay (May 10, 2011)

tomasball said:


> Having said that, I'd like to hijack the thread a bit to make another point. There really are religions out there, whose members legitimately can't be masons. Some hold that it is sinful to engage in corporate prayer with people of a different faith from yours. Well, then, you can't be a mason. Some hold that it is sinful to swear to anything. Okay, then you can't be a mason.




Well...I have no problem with my faith and my Masonic search for light...if my church freaked out over it, then it will be time to find a new church.  Its that simple.


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## JohnnyFlotsam (May 11, 2011)

Benton said:


> It's amazing how many Christians ignore the teachings of Christ.


 

_"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ._"
- Mohandus Gandhi


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## jwhoff (May 11, 2011)

Brethren ... is there any, even the slightest, possibility we could sell a few guns and holy scriptures here?  Just trying to stay focused in this materialistic world.  Kinda *green* too when you think about a cure for population explosion.  Can you say Brother Osamah!


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## Beathard (May 11, 2011)

Huh?


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