# The big pink elephant in the room...



## Bro. Vincent

... Can we have an intelligent and brotherly discussion about race and freemasonry? Or are we still too small on both sides to have that "honest" discussion?
I am a provocative mason who is willing to talk about the tough subjects in order to understand my Caucasian brothers... And try to have them understand me as a PHA...Even the ones I vehemently disagree with...at the end of the day you are still my brothers so I wish to get your mind set on somethings...

Who is game? 

By the way, I understand there are some  things I know we are going to agree to disagree on... And I'm still willing to go there...


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## JJones

Unless I'm mistaken, there have been several threads on the subject here already.

I've no problem with discussing it but I think you'll find that it's not such a powder keg of a subject here...at least not in my experience. :beer:


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## Michael Neumann

Bro. Vincent said:


> ... Can we have an intelligent and brotherly discussion about race and freemasonry? Or are we still too small on both sides to have that "honest" discussion?
> I am a provocative mason who is willing to talk about the tough subjects in order to understand my Caucasian brothers... And try to have them understand me as a PHA...Even the ones I vehemently disagree with...at the end of the day you are still my brothers so I wish to get your mind set on somethings...
> 
> Who is game?
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



I will take you up on this provided it is handled on the level, no insults are taken.

You know, I wonder why in 2013 we are still talking about race. Race is utter nonsense and shows how low the human mind can degrade to. I sit in the office with black Americans, white Americans, and everything in-between Americans. When race comes up only the black Americans refer to 'us' and 'we' as the blacks. The Americans who descend fro Europe, Puerto Rico, and Asia refer to 'us' and 'we' as all Americans, they are non-color descriptive.

My question is this - I was raised thinking that we are one, we are all equal and we are all Americans. Knowing as we do now that EVERY race has endured slavery for hundreds of years why is it that _some_ black Americans have to categorize themselves as separate from the rest?

From no-holds-barred discussions with my relatively diverse group of friends I have found that racism is far more predominant among black Americans. You can read this article http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2013/05/08/honest-examination-of-race-n1588213 and it supports what I am saying. Yesterday during discussion two of my friends acknowledged they voted for Obama simply based upon his race....? You are going to close your eyes to everything the man says and voted based upon race? ... in 2013? ... really?

If it were up to me labor unions and title 7 would be thrown out the window and hiring, elections, and value would be dependent upon the individuals capabilities and not color, ethnicity, or sex. PHA and 'mainstream' should be separate ONLY because of the rich history each has. We should be able to walk between their lodges freely.


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## stuntman98

Lets break this down.....Free and accepted.....are there slaves.....no there for ask men can be masons.....are all men accepted......you must cast a ballot, black and we stones and vote, there for every man that was made a Mason under a just and duly constituted lodge of such is recognized by the grand lodge of England and every regular lodge world wide. S.M.I.B

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## Howard1977

I wholeheartedly agree!


Life is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. - Bro. John Wayne

This too is spot on. Race is a silly issue. We as Masons should always be above racism.

Life is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. - Bro. John Wayne


Brother,  Companion, & Sir Knight Howard E. Hubbard. New Hope #480 Eldon, Iowa A.F. & A.M and Springville Lodge #139 A.F. & A.M. Springville , Iowa, Clinton Chapter #9 R.A.M, Ottumwa Council #31.R. & S. M., Malta Commandery #31 K.T, State of Iowa


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## widows son

Id have to agree with bro. Neumann. I was invited to a couple regularity Facebook pages between PHA and clandestine masons. The majority of the "clandies" seem to have this "white men brainwashed those who are darker skinned" attitude. Just seems nonsensical.


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## stuntman98

Clandys.........
PM Pride of Walton #110
SW Sons of Light #77
Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
Grand Technician WFOT


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## Bro. Vincent

until those southern states practice "true " brotherhood, race will always be an issue. As an African American I will never turn the other cheek to systemic racism or sweep it under the rug.

I have many white friends and they say why can't you just move on from this? My answer is always the same... If you do not confront and constantly challenge it you run the risk of these things happening again. 

Remember the 13th amendment is just that it's an amendment not a law. Those mainstream lodges in the south are still holding on to their old racist views and some instances I believe they should be viewed as clandestine for not living up to the full masonic laws in their lodges.

In 2013 these are still the types of reasons why we continue to be a divided country. Unless you are a person of color it is very difficult to understand why my Caucasian brothers get agitated when I find it offensive when they tell me to get over it and stop blaming the white man. Though I do not walk through claiming the white man is the source of my woes. Historically blacks have been largely written out of world history including freemasonry.

And I talking long before Prince Hall came on the scene. 

Look, I am not an "angry black man" in the least,  although I have every right to be...I work in corporate America and I can tell you racism is well and very much alive. Because it is I will continue to address an fight it.


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## ARizo1011

Look there's racist people in the world... That's that. I am latin and have many black friends. There's racism in the world. Why fight something you can't win? There will always be someone out there that has a problem just with the skin tone of one. You can't change everyone's mind. A "white man" has kids.. All they see us that dad "hates" blacks.. So they will also grow to be the same. It's what you see in your family as a kid .. It's sticks with you. If you can't change it why fight. Your fighting a war you already lost.. 

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.


I get what your saying but it's not worth all the struggle. You can't change every "white mans" thoughts. So just make sure you as a person don't have a racist heart and show your family as well. The more people open there eyes The less racism..  That's all we can do as human beings... Love Brother.. 






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## JJones

> Those mainstream lodges in the south are still holding on to their old racist views and some instances I believe they should be viewed as clandestine for not living up to the full masonic laws in their lodges.



For the sake of discussion, what do you think the mainstream lodges should do?


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## widows son

Bro. Vincent, you make very valid points. I'm not really aware of much African history with regards to freemasonry, only Prince Hall. Not saying there isn't, but could you provide some light on this? 

I mentioned in my previous post about the thought process of some of these clandestine masons.  I really can't understand how one can go through life with such distorted version of reality, with claims that science and other institutions are agreeing with these people's statements on the one hand, and in the same topic say that everyone is brainwashed because of these very institutions that they say agree with them. Non sensical. 

What I think needs to happen is get rid of these clandestine bodies. They are not helping any cause, Masonic and non Masonic. I believe that once that happens more Afro-Americans can further help the PHA deal with the issues that it is facing. It would seem between the clandies and the few mainstream lodges that are stuck in the past are giving the PHA a run for its money. It seems that its being pulled from both directions. If at least one of these can be controlled, it might be easier to negotiate a resolution.


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## Bro. Vincent

Now that is an interesting question. I'm not sure to be honest. I think one step would be for all other mainstream GLs that recognize PHA and vice verse to put pressure and or collectively not recognize those GLs in that still hold these practices close to the vest.

This mason does not personally recognize those lodges. And for them to hold on to practices of the forefathers is no reason in hell to continue to do so today.

We are in the 21st century and we are still having to deal with this...I love PHA lodges because culturally it makes sense for AAs to continue to connect in a positive way with our fathers, brothers and sons in a positive and constructive way,  while at the same time enjoying the fellowship with mainstream brothers.

All encompassing unity and recognition should be the goal and those that choose to turn their back on " any regular mason" should be shunned and casted as clandestine... My two cents.


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## Bro. Vincent

Part of the problem is if the true history of man is told these invisible walls would disappear... Masonry is a part of that history.

You must understand that I am student of "world" history not just European history. When you have a understanding of things beyond European and American history your outlook drastically changes because you start to get a full grasp of the contributions to civilization people of all colors have made throughout time on this planet. 

You would also get a breathe taking view of the contributions Africans to masonry before the 1700s. And this is the great divide between blacks and whites in this world. Black folk want to recognized for its achievement. 

Afrocentricity   Says that we will teach ourselves our history instead of what European scholars have told us about our selves.  

Most of you have no cultural identity to Africa so I understand why you wouldn't study it. But in my opinion you are short changing yourselves from understanding the full scope of Freemasonry by stopping your studies in Europe.

I thank you brothers for having an insightful and intelligent conversation  about this...


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## Brennan

Hellos brother. I am a recently made Master Mason (raised on May 6th) from Tennessee. Since I'm new I do not know that much about the history between mainstream lodges and PHA lodges other than one is predominately white and the other is predominately black. I also know that TN is one of the few remaining Grand Lodges that does not recognize PHA Masons.

And I do believe that it is only a matter of time until Tennessee and the other GLs recognize each other. It's simple progress and progress cannot be stopped. It pains me to see brothers bogged down by their prejudices when we are supposed to be striving towards light. 

I would like to know if any of you brothers believe there could be a merger of the lodges in the future, a synthesis of the two. And if there are any PHA Masons in TN I would love to meet you.


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## Bro. Vincent

Hello bro Brennan,

Only time will tell if the southern lodges will change, I for one do not lose too much sleep over it. But what i do know is Chattel Slavery in America was the worse holocaust in the history of man and southern jurisdictions refuse to let it go. 

I understand a lot of those men will take those ridiculous ideologies to their grave. But All good  masons have something of value to add to the craft and that should be the common goal of making good men better. 

I applaud my mainstream brothers of this forum who choose not to partake in that sort of mentality but choose to meet their PHA brothers on the Level. But we have to honestly look at history objectively because to me, it is the only way to move forward. To me, it's like trying to find out if you are predisposed to cancer as an orphan. Because you do not know your family history it would be nearly impossible to answer that question.

This is why these subjects must be dealt with openly and honestly IMO. In order to know your future we have to look in the mirror and deal with our past, then we can move forward. The fact that you asked the question is a step in the right direction.


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## stuntman98

I was stationed in GA not long ago, there was a lodge right outside the main gate, there was a few cars in the parking lot so i decided to knock on the door, see if anybody answers and ask when meetings take place, somebody answered i extended my head, he except it, so i introduced my self and asked "when do you brothers meet" he told me "you guyses lodge is on 6th and 6th" i said "yeah i know but i live here on post and this one is really close" add he replied " you guyses lodge is on 6th and 6th, i suggest you go there".

I was a bit upset because i came from a place in which race was no issue, now I find myself in a state where brotherly love ain't that brotherly.

I have seen what can be accomplished if we put race aside, in Seattle the MWGLWa and the MWPHGLWa take the brotherly love to a whole NEW level joint raising more visitation than i have ever seen. Books and correspondence were given to the pha lodge by the ms lodge.

We all need to come together to make a difference, the color of skin may be difference, but we take the same solemn obligation. 

PM Pride of Walton #110
SW Sons of Light #77
Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
Grand Technician WFOT
PDDGIT Afghanistan WFOT


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## Brennan

I do feel that the mainstream lodges are missing out on good brothers by doing things like that. I don't know what te relationship is like in TN between the two lodges, but I do know we have black brothers in Memphis. I guess we'll just have to take it in strides.


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## Bro. Vincent

In time things will change or it dies. Some times change must be forced... You can't sit idle and hope that people develop and grow. I believe that is why so many lodges suffer from strong membership.

Because officers sometimes hold on to old philosophies. I am not referring to ritual work or conferring degrees. I'm talking about bringing their social prejudices in the lodge.

Why else would a brother in good standing be turned away from a lodge? Simply unbelievable! 


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## Bro. Vincent

stuntman98 said:


> I was stationed in GA not long ago, there was a lodge right outside the main gate, there was a few cars in the parking lot so i decided to knock on the door, see if anybody answers and ask when meetings take place, somebody answered i extended my head, he except it, so i introduced my self and asked "when do you brothers meet" he told me "you guyses lodge is on 6th and 6th" i said "yeah i know but i live here on post and this one is really close" add he replied " you guyses lodge is on 6th and 6th, i suggest you go there".
> 
> I was a bit upset because i came from a place in which race was no issue, now I find myself in a state where brotherly love ain't that brotherly.
> 
> I have seen what can be accomplished if we put race aside, in Seattle the MWGLWa and the MWPHGLWa take the brotherly love to a whole NEW level joint raising more visitation than i have ever seen. Books and correspondence were given to the pha lodge by the ms lodge.
> 
> We all need to come together to make a difference, the color of skin may be difference, but we take the same solemn obligation.
> 
> PM Pride of Walton #110
> SW Sons of Light #77
> Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
> Grand Technician WFOT
> PDDGIT Afghanistan WFOT



Interesting story. I will be in Montana this summer. I hear the PHA of Oregon oversees Montana's jurisdiction and the mainstream Montana GL recognizes the PHA and vice verse.

I plan to visit Montana's GL in Helena when I visit this summer. Should  be interesting to see what happens.


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## Michael Hatley

As others have said, there are a bunch of threads about this on the site here.  It has been discussed a lot.  Not saying a new one isn't worthwhile, but you might be surprised to find that a pretty massive majority of folks who frequent this site are pretty strongly for strong relations, ending divides and so on and so forth.  So you're sort of preaching to the choir, in a way.

Most of us younger fellas (lets say under 40) grew up in a world where color of skin is meaningless.  Lots of us who are Masons, whether PHA or "mainstream" (hate that term but it is what it is), served in the military - and anyone who has done that has learned that race is just not a barrier to brotherhood in any way.  The whole issue is so yesterday.

But right, you look at group photos of PHA lodges - almost entirely African American folks.  Look at "mainstream" lodges photos, almost entirely Anglo American folks.  Just is what it is.

How to change it?  What to do?  

First thing to recognize is that we have five main living generations in the world right now:

1. The GI Generation - 90+ or so right now, served in WWII or were of the right age to

2. The "Silent Generation" (the term was coined by a writer, not me)....about half the size of the generation before.  Lots of em served in Korea or were the right age.  Around 70-85 or so right now.

3. The Boomers.  About twice the size of the previous generation.  55-70 or so.  Vietnam vets and so forth.

4. Gen X.  35-50ish.  Half the size of the previous generation.  Atari 2600, Reagan as a kiddo, etc.  No major wars, latch key kids and whatnot.  No Internet as a kid, but were early adopters.

5. Gen Y.  20-35 or so.  Twice the size of Gen X.  Grew up with the 'net.  Lots of em who have made their way into the Fraternity are vets of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now, the first one on the list are dying off.  Just is what it is.  They are rare birds. 

The second one will over the next couple of decades.  Right now though they are, in lodges all over the world, still very, very influential.  They were the elder adults during the time of the civil rights movement - lots of times, the conservatives.  They are passing the torch over the next 15 years to younger men.

The third one never really joined the Fraternity in anywhere near the numbers that the preceding generations did.  A lot of them have joined in the last decade or so.   Quite a number of them now, but and will be more as they are retiring - but a load of em are just as new to the craft as Gen X and Y are.  They lived through the Woodstock years as kids.  Lots of them are conservative, sure - because thats what happens when you're 401k is starting to matter a lot, and Masonry attracts some conservative sorts of folks.  But they are a lot more interested in diversity as a whole than the two preceding generations because they admired Martin Luther King Jr., the Kennedys and what have you, no matter what their skin color is.  

Now we come to Gen X.  I imagine thats the majority of members here.  Lots of us are in progressive lines of our lodges.  We grew up knowing only we could prevent forest fires and in diverse classrooms.  We're joining the fraternity at about the same rate the boomers are, lots of times because we are just not all that thrilled as a whole about being deacons in our church, but we want to be involved in the community and so on.  We're generally tech saavy, more so than the preceding generations. And we don't dig racism, at all.

Gen Y are the younger folks who we see knocking on our door, including here.  College students and whatnot.  Folks returning from the wars overseas.  Racism is inexplicable to them, entirely so.  They haven't began joining the fraternity en masse yet.  But, like the boomers, there is a whole lot of em.  And they are more "joiners" than the boomers were - and so it is likely they will come to us in numbers a whole lot sooner than the boomers did.

Now I ramble about all of this to sort of point out that gravity is going to work in our favor.  We who are Boomers and Gen X have a responsibility to pave the way for Gen Y.  In a lot of situations, to pick our battles.  We aren't going to change the minds of the GI Generation or the Silent Generation, not really.  Not in most cases, anyway.  What we have to do is lay the groundwork for change.  And in a lot of cases, recognize that Gen X is going to be in leadership positions a lot sooner than the Boomers were, on the whole - simply because we are joining in numbers similar to them despite their much larger size.

In Texas, we need visitation between PHA and the Grand Lodge of Texas.  Its the next step.  As more of us become Past Masters, in both jurisdictions, we'll have the vote and the platform to speak out on that issue.

And then we need to get off our asses and visit each others lodges.  Build real friendships and lines of communication.

And take it from there.

The future is bright.


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## Bro. Vincent

First off. I know this subject has been discussed many times here... That is of no consequence to this mason.

As long as racism exists I will confront it. I am a so called generation Xer as well...that accounts for something but not much to me because I am not waiting for folks to die off for Anything to change.

There is some truth in your theory and I certainly agree with alot of what you said but i believe that those that sit idle and say well just the way it is and it'll change in the next 10-25 years is asinine. 

I do not bring the subject up every day and ive seen numerous threads on the subject on this forum and not said a thing, but lodges seem to like microcosms of society. Very hypercritical at times...

Even though some GL have opened up to visitation rights the subordinate lodges don't practice it. Because "that's just the  way it is...Huh?" SMDH...




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## Michael Hatley

> First off. I know this subject has been discussed many times here... That is of no consequence to this mason.




I mentioned this because you might find out a fair bit about the sentiment of the people on this forum by doing so.  If you choose to ignore it, fine.

I had a feeling you'd respond the way you did though, which is why I made a point of saying "Not saying a new one isn't worthwhile, but you might be surprised to find that a pretty massive majority of folks who frequent this site are pretty strongly for strong relations, ending divides and so on and so forth."

What I'm saying is that most folks here are on the same sheet of music about improving the situation.  Not to try to silence discussion on the matter.  More so that you know that it isn't something we are ignoring.

I'll just try and leave it at that, for my part


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## Bro. Vincent

I have passed. 

I do not have a chip on my shoulder. If you read my post I often thank brothers for their comments and suggestions. 

I do not come here to divide anyone. Again if you read my post it just the opposite. It's me working to find common ground amongst those that have suggestions and thoughts on the subject.


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## Michael Hatley

*nods, I edited my post as you were responding - was afraid you might take the question the wrong way and wanted to tone it down overall.

Anyway - good luck and no offense intended.


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## Bro. Vincent

None taken. At the end of the day you are all my brothers and that's what's important to me.


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## ARizo1011

One Ancient charges of freemasonry once said " It is not the power of any men to make innovations in the body of Masonry" 

That being said, you cannot change anything. There are people above you who can careless what you think or say. 

In no way do I mean to offend you Brother Vincent. I know you will continue to strive for what you believe is right. But this is the way it is. If mainstream brothers don't want to partake in recognizing PHA brothers then let them do so. Us Brothers who do recognize the PHA brothers then let us Rejoice and treat each other as the Brothers we are.  Love Brother. 


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## Bro. Vincent

I'm not offended in the least bit. I totally understand where you are coming from...
But if you don't have love and respect for others how in the world can call yourself a mason?

Maybe I'm naive to think that I could change the world, but that sure is hell isn't a reason to stop trying...


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## ARizo1011

You have a mind of great wisdom and a heart of a lion. Don't ever stop trying to change what you think should be different. Hope to meet you one day Brother. 

And you are not naive. You just have a good heart and have realized certain things that shouldn't be. 


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## Bro. Vincent

Thank you brother for your kind words. Naw im probably just plain ol naive lol! . I really appreciate everyone's input here... 
I am constantly trying to teach young black children their importance in this world. I just feel its my calling and they need that encouragement as much as possible from an adult that looks like them.  And I try to teach them about themselves and their history prior to slavery. And to let them know slavery was not their fault.

So I get deeply involved in these issues and then I join the lodge and I see some of the same demons in freemasonry that I constantly fight in the world and its just sad...but I love freemasonry for it's core values. 

I just wished we all actually practiced them...

Again thanks to all of you for being honest and having an intelligent and thoughtful  discussion. Means alot to me. This lets me know together we will change the world!


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## jwhoff

This discussion warms my 62-year old heart.  As many of you have read me out through the years on this website:  I do not expect to live long enough to see the day that a man is not (at least in part) sized up by the color of his skin.  I know the generations now on the horizon will be less and less plagued by this curse on America.  Members of my generation in both Europe and South America know less of the divide that separates men in America.  They oft-times ask in puzzlement how we can (for the most part) overcome class but not race.  

I am not foolish enough to blame it on the white man alone.  I've met brown and black men who have been just as predjuce.  Though, I must say, not as many.  I've stood on the corner of a busy street every Octobor collecting money for the Shriner's (of who I am not a member) hospital charity.  Believe me, the white men of my generation are the least charitable.  Many simply have a chip on their shoulders.  Someone is going to take something that belongs *solely *to them.  This disappoints me greatly.  I am a white man of the baby boom generaton.  I have been cursed, told to get a job and to just straight go to hell by my own kind.  I remember only two such encounters with black men and none with hispanics in those seven years.  Never have I been scorned by females nor by young males of any ethnic group.

This discussion is healthy.  Why any man, of any ethnic group, who calls himself a mason can hold such injust feelings escapes me.  I know it has all the world to do with his local culture and values held within his family.  BUT ... how could he have missed the vows he took and the message delivered to him upon the "angle of the square?"  

The triangle, the oldest symbol in religion, teaches us we have a master, that we have a relationship with the master, and that the master created us all.  And, therefore, we have a relationship with each other.  How can any mason ignore this lesson?  

I suspect that many grand jurisdictions still suffering under this cloud are biding their time and waiting for the generational changes that will signal the end to this madness.  

Again, I must say that I am not blind to the shune of a black or brown man toward me.  Bigotry exist in all three races at various levels.  It is a natural law that every action is followed by an equal reaction.  It's far past time to put ourselves in the other man's shoes.  To those masons who hold such feeling I say:  You are a weak link in the brotherhood and you must eventually come to grips with the obvious that you have long sought to ignore.  

Know thyself brethren.  Come to terms with your beliefs and value. We will all be better off when you do.


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## Roach

widows son said:


> I'm not really aware of much African history with regards to freemasonry, only Prince Hall. Not saying there isn't, but could you provide some light on this?



Thought you might like to read this.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/buffalo_soldiers.htm


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## Bro. Vincent

Roach said:


> Thought you might like to read this.
> 
> http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/buffalo_soldiers.htm



Wow! Thank you brother for that link, simply outstanding information. I have been truly enlighten about the buffalo soldiers. This is what I was referring to when I was saying written out of history.  Great piece!


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## Bro. Vincent

jwhoff said:


> This discussion warms my 62-year old heart.  As many of you have read me out through the years on this website:  I do not expect to live long enough to see the day that a man is not (at least in part) sized up by the color of his skin.  I know the generations now on the horizon will be less and less plagued by this curse on America.  Members of my generation in both Europe and South America know less of the divide that separates men in America.  They oft-times ask in puzzlement how we can (for the most part) overcome class but not race.
> 
> I am not foolish enough to blame it on the white man alone.  I've met brown and black men who have been just as predjuce.  Though, I must say, not as many.  I've stood on the corner of a busy street every Octobor collecting money for the Shriner's (of who I am not a member) hospital charity.  Believe me, the white men of my generation are the least charitable.  Many simply have a chip on their shoulders.  Someone is going to take something that belongs *solely *to them.  This disappoints me greatly.  I am a white man of the baby boom generaton.  I have been cursed, told to get a job and to just straight go to hell by my own kind.  I remember only two such encounters with black men and none with hispanics in those seven years.  Never have I been scorned by females nor by young males of any ethnic group.
> 
> This discussion is healthy.  Why any man, of any ethnic group, who calls himself a mason can hold such injust feelings escapes me.  I know it has all the world to do with his local culture and values held within his family.  BUT ... how could he have missed the vows he took and the message delivered to him upon the "angle of the square?"
> 
> The triangle, the oldest symbol in religion, teaches us we have a master, that we have a relationship with the master, and that the master created us all.  And, therefore, we have a relationship with each other.  How can any mason ignore this lesson?
> 
> I suspect that many grand jurisdictions still suffering under this cloud are biding their time and waiting for the generational changes that will signal the end to this madness.
> 
> Again, I must say that I am not blind to the shune of a black or brown man toward me.  Bigotry exist in all three races at various levels.  It is a natural law that every action is followed by an equal reaction.  It's far past time to put ourselves in the other man's shoes.  To those masons who hold such feeling I say:  You are a weak link in the brotherhood and you must eventually come to grips with the obvious that you have long sought to ignore.
> 
> Know thyself brethren.  Come to terms with your beliefs and value. We will all be better off when you do.



I have the utmost resect for you elder. Because of men like you I know there is "light" at the end of the tunnel. And because you are a part of this discussion you are a part of the solution in my eyes. When our elders speak with a wise and humble tone it makes me think of the of the three jewels of an EA. 
 Think you sir for bringing a wise and beautiful tone to the discussion...

Thank you!



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## Michael Neumann

I have been fighting this for some time. Sign a petition and send it out to those that will do the same https://www.facebook.com/MasonicAmity?ref=hl There is also a thread on this site in the Fraternal relations section. 

The PHA is creating as much of a road block as 'mainstream' on this topic. I have even had PHA brethren call their grand lodge and get stone walled. To overcome this it is going to take a BIG push from BOTH sides.


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## Bro. Vincent

Michael Neumann said:


> I have been fighting this for some time. Sign a petition and send it out to those that will do the same https://www.facebook.com/MasonicAmity?ref=hl There is also a thread on this site in the Fraternal relations section.
> 
> The PHA is creating as much of a road block as 'mainstream' on this topic. I have even had PHA brethren call their grand lodge and get stone walled. To overcome this it is going to take a BIG push from BOTH sides.



I agree with your sentiment as well... I've run into PHA brothers that are basically scarred from their treatment from some of these mainstream  lodges,so they have turned their back on them all together and will not be talked out of changing...

There is work to be done on both sides if the fence and I am up for the challenge! 


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## Michael Neumann

Here is the thread on the site http://www.masonsoftexas.com/showthread.php?17631-Petition-for-Joint-Recognition-and-Visitation promote it among those you have influence with. Perhaps we can get this thing pressed through!


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## Traveling Man

JWhoff >Wise words my brother. Let it be known, you are not alone!


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## dfreybur

Not being a NASCAR fan I'm not capable of having an intelligent discussion of race the way it means in the world going forward.

In the neighborhood where I grew up Jewish was considered a different race yet they looked like the folks at my family reunions.  From the stroller as an infant I learned race was nonsense unless it was an Indianapolis versus Daytona discussion*  So as my world expanded outside of my neighborhood I would not let such attitudes in my life.  As a late boomer now 55 there is nothing unusual in my approach but as a late bloomer now 55 I'm still a young guy at lodge.

We're all mortal.  Guys who grew up in a world that did not marginalize racists are dying rapidly.  North Carolina has recognition.  "This too shall pass."  "Let peace begin with me."  So I visit lodges in both jurisdictions and delay submitting a petition for affiliation to any Texas lodge.  And I rightly fuss with myself that means I can't go through the line and end up with a vote in Texas Grand Lodge.  My ability to vote at GL in Illinois and California doesn't matter on this issue.  Both our grand lines have constant shared events and both our sets of lodges trade visits often in those states.

* Pylon races.  Loud cars may be cool but louder propeller driven planes are a higher sport in a literal minded sense ...


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## Bro. Vincent

dfreybur said:


> Not being a NASCAR fan I'm not capable of having an intelligent discussion of race the way it means in the world going forward.
> 
> In the neighborhood where I grew up Jewish was considered a different race yet they looked like the folks at my family reunions.  From the stroller as an infant I learned race was nonsense unless it was an Indianapolis versus Daytona discussion*  So as my world expanded outside of my neighborhood I would not let such attitudes in my life.  As a late boomer now 55 there is nothing unusual in my approach but as a late bloomer now 55 I'm still a young guy at lodge.
> 
> We're all mortal.  Guys who grew up in a world that did not marginalize racists are dying rapidly.  North Carolina has recognition.  "This too shall pass."  "Let peace begin with me."  So I visit lodges in both jurisdictions and delay submitting a petition for affiliation to any Texas lodge.  And I rightly fuss with myself that means I can't go through the line and end up with a vote in Texas Grand Lodge.  My ability to vote at GL in Illinois and California doesn't matter on this issue.  Both our grand lines have constant shared events and both our sets of lodges trade visits often in those states.
> 
> * Pylon races.  Loud cars may be cool but louder propeller driven planes are a higher sport in a literal minded sense ...



Lol! This is absolutely a funny and fantastic post! Great post brother!


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## Michael Hatley

Bro. Vincent said:


> Wow! Thank you brother for that link, simply outstanding information. I have been truly enlighten about the buffalo soldiers. This is what I was referring to when I was saying written out of history.  Great



As an aside, I served in one of those units, which still exists today.  9th Cavalry, Headhunters Battalion, under 3rd Brigade (Grey Wolf) of 1st Cavalry Division.  It has a lot to do with why the issue matters to me, because I was, in fact, a Buffalo Soldier and am proud to have been so.  The vast majority of the men I served with, in a dangerous line of work were men of color, and in a unit with a deep and real history.


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## Bro. Vincent

Michael Hatley said:


> As an aside, I served in one of those units, which still exists today.  9th Cavalry, Headhunters Battalion, under 3rd Brigade (Grey Wolf) of 1st Cavalry Division.  It has a lot to do with why the issue matters to me, because I was, in fact, a Buffalo Soldier and am proud to have been so.  The vast majority of the men I served with, in a dangerous line of work were men of color, and in a unit with a deep and real history.



That is impressive sir. And I have deep and profound respect for your service to this  nation. I am also interested In  the information on military lodges. I am not well versed In them. How did they begin?


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## Michael Hatley

I don't know much more than the general bit about the Brits bringing Freemasonry to the States in traveling military lodges back in the 1700s.  Personally I didn't join the craft till after I was done with my tour.

There are some Brethren about though that are currently serving in military lodges that hopefully can chime in.  I think though that each of them get a dispensation from different places and all have their own unique story.

Personally, when a military friend of mine asks me about Freemasonry I usually urge them to join the Fraternity under the auspices of a Grand Lodge while they are abroad.  Reason being that often those Grand Lodges have relations with both main Grand Lodges in each of the states in the US, meaning they have no barrier to fraternal visitation to either.  One more way to thread the needle.

I believe that getting together, in person, will do a whole lot.  Breaking bread together.  Serving in degrees together.  Heck, BBQing ribs together.  In person, face to face, getting to know each others families.  Its why I really want visitation to get fixed up here in Texas.  

Another thing - the Shrine has talked about removing the Master Mason's requirement some recently.  Really, I hate the idea - but I will say that, in Texas, it might have a side benefit of maybe, just maybe, being a place where GLoTX and PH folks could come together under one roof for well and true.  But that is a whole can of worms for a fact with good arguments on both sides.


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## Bro. Vincent

Michael Hatley said:


> I don't know much more than the general bit about the Brits bringing Freemasonry to the States in traveling military lodges back in the 1700s.  Personally I didn't join the craft till after I was done with my tour.
> 
> There are some Brethren about though that are currently serving in military lodges that hopefully can chime in.  I think though that each of them get a dispensation from different places and all have their own unique story.
> 
> Personally, when a military friend of mine asks me about Freemasonry I usually urge them to join the Fraternity under the auspices of a Grand Lodge while they are abroad.  Reason being that often those Grand Lodges have relations with both main Grand Lodges in each of the states in the US, meaning they have no barrier to fraternal visitation to either.  One more way to thread the needle.
> 
> I believe that getting together, in person, will do a whole lot.  Breaking bread together.  Serving in degrees together.  Heck, BBQing ribs together.  In person, face to face, getting to know each others families.  Its why I really want visitation to get fixed up here in Texas.
> 
> Another thing - the Shrine has talked about removing the Master Mason's requirement some recently.  Really, I hate the idea - but I will say that, in Texas, it might have a side benefit of maybe, just maybe, being a place where GLoTX and PH folks could come together under one roof for well and true.  But that is a whole can of worms for a fact with good arguments on both sides.



Interesting stuff. Thank you for the insight brother.


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## dfreybur

Michael Hatley said:


> Another thing - the Shrine has talked about removing the Master Mason's requirement some recently.  Really, I hate the idea - but I will say that, in Texas, it might have a side benefit of maybe, just maybe, being a place where GLoTX and PH folks could come together under one roof for well and true.  But that is a whole can of worms for a fact with good arguments on both sides.



Not even the local Shrines attend together?  Yikes.  I should have thought of that with the rest of the no-visitation discussion but that aspect never occurred to me.  Not having members of the two local GLs mixed together at a Shrine meeting?  Visitors from PHA are common at meetings in Illinois.  Shaking my head at how this lack of visitation keeps rolling over the top of what I consider normal routine.


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## Michael Hatley

Well PH has its own Shrine as I understand it:


http://www.aeaonms.org/


The "Ancient Egyptian Arabic Order Nobles of Mystic Shrine" (A.E.A.O.N.M.S) - which is a different organization than "Shriners International"


http://www.shrinersinternational.org/



Shriners International is "Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine"  (A.A.O.N.M.S), note no "Egyptian" bit.  

Shriners International are the folks who are affiliated with the hospitals and that is their main charitable outlet.

Whereas A.E.A.O.N.M.S list the "NAACP, the Legal Defense Fund, the Urban League, and United Negro College Fund, along with Annual Grants to several institutions of higher learning and hospitals throughout the land, for medical and other research projects" as its charitable recipients.

Two totally different organizations.  The A.A.O.N.M.S was formed in 1870, the A.E.A.O.N.M.S in 1893.

So like I say, its a whole can of worms within a can of worms, I guess.  

Truth is I'm not sure if a PH Freemason can join the A.A.O.N.M.S or not.  It might be an overlooked loophole, to tell the truth.


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## Bro. David F. Hill

Today I met a man that had been traveling for 50+ years while sitting in Walgreens waiting for my prescription.  I found out he was a Mason when he commented on liking my masonic dog-tags.  We talked quite a bit until they announed my order was ready and as I got ready to go, the GAOTU touched my heart and led me to take off my tags and give them to him.  He protested but I insisted and he proudly put them on.  I may never see him again until that lodge meeting in heaven but doing this act between brothers has touched me more than many that I done.  I will miss those tags as they opened many conversations with brothers from the GLofTX and not one showed any hint of racism.  These older men came from my generation or before and it could be understood if they did harbor those feelings but they met me on the level and departed upon the square.  There is hope and I can't wait till we all can truly live up to our obligations and treat each other as brothers without any regard for race.

SMIB


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## Bro. Vincent

PH021211 said:


> Today I met a man that had been traveling for 50+ years while sitting in Walgreens waiting for my prescription.  I found out he was a Mason when he commented on liking my masonic dog-tags.  We talked quite a bit until they announed my order was ready and as I got ready to go, the GAOTU touched my heart and led me to take off my tags and give them to him.  He protested but I insisted and he proudly put them on.  I may never see him again until that lodge meeting in heaven but doing this act between brothers has touched me more than many that I done.  I will miss those tags as they opened many conversations with brothers from the GLofTX and not one showed any hint of racism.  These older men came from my generation or before and it could be understood if they did harbor those feelings but they met me on the level and departed upon the square.  There is hope and I can't wait till we all can truly live up to our obligations and treat each other as brothers without any regard for race.
> 
> SMIB



Thank you so much for sharing that beautiful story. Man when I hear those kind of  stories it's lets me know to keep trying... Thank you brother. Again what a beautiful story and a great heart. May the GAOTU bless you...

This is the feed back I love when brothers can get together and fellowship. This thread has taken 50 turns and twist and still comes back to brotherly love... All the different valid thoughts and opinions and brothers of all races chiming in (even NASCAR races lol) has been simply beautiful. I'm sorry bro. Blake but I would love for this thread to reach a 100 hits before we move on... Thank you everyone!


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## widows son

I apologize in advance for hijacking your thread, but since we are on the topic of PHA, I was at the lodge last night and happen to read the Tyler's list. For Prince Hall GL's all it had was the PHGL of Connecticut, PHGL of NY(I believe that it was NY) and PH GL of Ontario and jurisdictions. I was under the impression that we recognized all PH GL's in America. I wondering what "Ontario and jurisdictions" mean.


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## bupton52

widows son said:


> I apologize in advance for hijacking your thread, but since we are on the topic of PHA, I was at the lodge last night and happen to read the Tyler's list. For Prince Hall GL's all it had was the PHGL of Connecticut, PHGL of NY(I believe that it was NY) and PH GL of Ontario and jurisdictions. I was under the impression that we recognized all PH GL's in America. I wondering what "Ontario and jurisdictions" mean.



I assumed that it meant whatever location that lodges are chartered outside of the state geographical boundaries. ie, a military lodge operating overseas chartered by a PHGL in the states, wherever they meet, is operating under the authority of that GL's jurisdiction. That's how I understood it.


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## widows son

So does that include other GLs other than the stated ones?


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## Bro. Vincent

I don't consider it hijacking...I think it's a pretty good question.


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## dfreybur

widows son said:


> ...  but since we are on the topic of PHA, I was at the lodge last night and happen to read the Tyler's list. For Prince Hall GL's all it had was the PHGL of Connecticut, PHGL of NY(I believe that it was NY) and PH GL of Ontario and jurisdictions.



Did you happen to check the year of the book?  By the list it would be a book maybe 15-20 years old when PHA recognition was a new thing.


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## dfreybur

Bro. Vincent said:


> This is the feed back I love when brothers can get together and fellowship.



Not sure how many places I've posted either of these.

1) When I petitioned for my degrees I took the paperwork to two old friends.  They looked at the form and told me they could not sign because the signatures are for members of that particular lodge and they were members of different lodges.  I checked the form carefully and pointed out there were lines for character references.  My friends were happy to sign there.  Before I'd ever heard of Prince Hall my investigating committee knew exactly where I would stand on the topic of recognition.  Both of my character references were 50 year PHA Masons.  I am glad to report that recognition happened while I was progressing through the line before I attended my first GL session.  I didn't need to vote for recognition because it was a done deal by the time I attended my first GL session in 1997.

2) One evening after a first degree I was walking to refreshment with a couple of elderly brothers.  One said - "If my father knew what we just did he would turn over in his grave."  I asked - "What do you mean?"  He answered - "I'm glad you are too young to understand."  It took until the next morning for me to put the pieces together.  Our new EA brother was black.  My elderly brother had grown up in a world where racists were not automatically marginalized on detection and he'd grown out of it.  He was glad I'd grown up in a world where that was not a part of it.


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## widows son

"Did you happen to check the year of the book? By the list it would be a book maybe 15-20 years old when PHA recognition was a new thing."

It was from July 2012

I'm wondering if it has something to do with the fact that there are already numerous men from different ethnicities already members of
what would be deemed "mainstream" masonry here in Ontario.


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## dfreybur

If anyone wants to discuss color - We're a blue family.  My Honorable Discharge is from the Navy (dark blue?).  My older daughter's Honorable Discharge is from the Air Force (light blue?).  My son-in-law is current active duty USAF.  My younger daughter's Honorable Discharge is from the Navy as is her (they aren't married so he isn't my son-in-law.  I guess he's my son-out-law).  Yep, blue all the way.


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## Bro. Vincent

dfreybur said:


> If anyone wants to discuss color - We're a blue family.  My Honorable Discharge is from the Navy (dark blue?).  My older daughter's Honorable Discharge is from the Air Force (light blue?).  My son-in-law is current active duty USAF.  My younger daughter's Honorable Discharge is from the Navy as is her (they aren't married so he isn't my son-in-law.  I guess he's my son-out-law).  Yep, blue all the way.



Dude you are hilarious! But I like that.... We are a blue family! I think I might borrow that one. 


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## Traveling Man

We may be Brothers from different mothers, but we are Brothers none the less!


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## dew_time

I thought everything in the navy was painted gray..

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## Bro. Vincent

Lmao!


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## jwhoff

dew_time said:


> I thought everything in the navy was painted gray..
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



I'm pretty sure ... it STILL is.


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## dew_time

My dad used to say when he was in the navy they told them to paint everything that doesn't move gray. I guess it holds true 35 years later, lol.

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## dfreybur

dew_time said:


> I thought everything in the navy was painted gray..



Yeah, but we were supposed to *call* it blue.  My "service dress blues" were made from black cloth, same reason.  Have you seen the beige camo uniforms the green service folks are wearing this decade?  Don't they call them green for the same reason?


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## inked_biker

Well as a White male being raised PHA in Baumholder Germany and then dimiting to a Main Stream Jurisdiction in Washington State I have what you may call been on both sides of the fence.  I never experienced anything negative in either Jurisdiction. 

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## stuntman98

Thats because WA is awesome

PM Pride of Walton #110
MWPHGLWa
SW Sons of Light #77
MWPHGLWa
Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
Grand Technician WFOT


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## inked_biker

PM Cornerstone Military Lodge 135 PHA OK
Past High Priest
Past Illustrious Master
Past EC
Past Venerable Master
Chairman Under 40 General Grand Chapter

At York Rite Grand Session in Everett this weekend. 


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## PHAMasonDon

I for one am all for it. I was raised June 2nd 2012 and am a proud Prince Hall and Caucasian brother!!  I was the first Caucasian of the logde in it's 70 year existence and we see No difference in one another... 
We all travel to the East my brother!!

PHAMasonDon


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## BryanMaloney

Bro. Vincent said:


> Remember the 13th amendment is just that it's an amendment not a law.


 
Amendments are laws. Indeed, if you mean the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution, it supercedes all other law in the USA. However, the 13th Amendment makes no guarantees of treatment, it merely outlaws slavery in the USA. It says nothing about racism. It merely eliminates a specific legal status.



> Historically blacks have been largely written out of world history including freemasonry.



Historically, "blackness" didn't matter until relatively recently. For example, to the Romans, there were only two races: "Roman" and "Barbarian", and a barbarian's child could be 100% Roman, since what defined "Race" for the Roman Empire was education and conduct, not ancestry. "Whiteness" is also not what it once was. The Irish, for example, were not considered to actually be "white" until the 19th century.


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## dew_time

Bryan is correct in his history. We all must remember that race, creed, origin or geographical location does not make a person who they are as much as their conduct does. At least.. that's my opion, but everyone has one.


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## Bro. Vincent

BryanMaloney said:


> Amendments are laws. Indeed, if you mean the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution, it supercedes all other law in the USA. However, the 13th Amendment makes no guarantees of treatment, it merely outlaws slavery in the USA. It says nothing about racism. It merely eliminates a specific legal status.
> 
> 
> 
> Historically, "blackness" didn't matter until relatively recently. For example, to the Romans, there were only two races: "Roman" and "Barbarian", and a barbarian's child could be 100% Roman, since what defined "Race" for the Roman Empire was education and conduct, not ancestry. "Whiteness" is also not what it once was. The Irish, for example, were not considered to actually be "white" until the 19th century.



Amendments are not laws they are an "amendment" or change to a current legal document or change to a given written law. Or addition.

And you are also incorrect on blackness not mattering until recently. Ancient Africans were well aware of there skin pigment and understood the science of melanin and its properties as well as the   Pineal gland 10s of thousands of years ago. What is relatively recent is racism and slavery as an "institution".

I have many issues with the history of the Romans and Greeks. I also have issues of how that history is told...

My teachings lead me to say the Barbers are what we call the African moor.  See Tawny moor.

l do agree about the Irish. See the black celts of Ireland. 


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## Bro. Vincent

dew_time said:


> Bryan is correct in his history. We all must remember that race, creed, origin or geographical location does not make a person who they are as much as their conduct does. At least.. that's my opion, but everyone has one.



He correct in "some "of history... But I agree with everything else you've said..


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## dew_time

Bro. Vincent said:


> He correct in "some "of history... But I agree with everything else you've said..
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Thanks   I'm not a big fan of racially related history. We've all come a long way since those days. I believe your right in that we need to work harder to mend some fences. Not only in this aspect but as a nation in general.

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## Bro. Vincent

Yeah I thought I would DM Bro. Maloney instead of continuing that thread here... He is a knowledgable person but some information must be challenged at times but at the right time and place. 

I come here for support and brotherly love... It's been great since I've come here. 


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## dew_time

Bro. Vincent said:


> I come here for support and brotherly love... It's been great since I've come here.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile


I might not be a brother yet but you have my respect and support... and that was before you posted this thread.

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## Bro. Vincent

dew_time said:


> I might not be a brother yet but you have my respect and support... and that was before you posted this thread.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Why thank you my friend. And you have mine as well...


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## BryanMaloney

Bro. Vincent said:


> Amendments are not laws they are an "amendment" or change to a current legal document or change to a given written law. Or addition.



And they have complete force of law, thus rendering them laws.

As for the rest of what you claim--it can't be backed up outside of conspiracy theorist literature, unfortunately.


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## Bro. Vincent

An Amendment again is not a law it is a change or addition to a law and is open for debate of it's interpretation in a court of law. But I will move on from that topic and leave you on square with this...The rest of what I said is not conspiracy.  I may be a newly made master mason, but when it comes to history (more particularly African history)  that has been and will be my life's work. The problem for most folks is when I get into these subjects they do not realize they only have studied what appeals to them, instead of getting sources of information from the most unlikeliest of places and playing the devil's advocate and using common sense to find a conclusion to historical events. 

Because IMO the only way to be 100 percent accurate is to have been there and experienced it. But sometimes when the information doesn't have the desired result they were looking for or they refuse to accept the truth, they simply discount the information or where the information came from...In America we are forced to study western civilization no matter what color, race, creed or ethnic background, but when you go beyond that and start studying more than what happened before the Roman and Greek empires, things really start dramatically change when we look at the high cultures that came out of Africa. 

Bro. Maloney I DM'd you with a message of my thoughts. I think at this point in this thread, we have beat a dead horse. You are a very knowledgeable light seeker and for that I have the utmost respect for you...Remember, *history is typically written by those who have conquered the lands they write about*...which means a great deal of the historical information from a world's view perspective, we get is probably distorted and yet we sometimes accept it all as historical fact.


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## dew_time

Looking back at my days in school while studying american history, I don't recall race being mentioned in conjunction with the birth of american. Though i do recall that this country was built on the backs of slaves. Slavery isn't just a black and white thing... it still exist and many races historically have been and may still be subjected to it. 

There.. I kicked the horse one last time.

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## dfreybur

Bro. Vincent said:


> In America we are forced to study western civilization no matter what color, race, creed or ethnic background



The United States is a part of the Anglo-Germanic branch of western civilization with plenty of influence from the Franco-Latin and Helenic branches of western civilization.  It is natural that our schools should teach western civilization with a local focus and thus they tech US history and then European history back to the Roman and Greek eras.  We only learn of the Parthians and Persians from the wars they fought with the Romans and Greeks.  We only learn of Egypt from the deep influence they had on the Romans and Greeks and through their occupations by the Romans and Greeks.  Color and race have been problematic in the Americas but did not matter in other parts of western civilization.  (You will want to point out the diversity of people was lower but that's because of historical difficulty of travel, but consider Julius, Anthony and Cleopatra).  While creed has in the past been a part of western civilization as Christianity wiped out previous religions it no longer is now that we have freedom of religion and separation of church and state.  Ethnic background is simple - We are ethnic Americans, ethnic Anglo-Germanic westerners, ethic westerners, ethnic old worlders, ethnic Earthers.  This is a matter of culture not race and that's the cultural tree we come from. here.  Ethnic cleansing in the Slavic region made it clear that "ethnic" is a matter of cultural choice not of race.  (As I currently reside in Texas and we have a NASCAR track in Austin I'll point out race is very much cultural.  We do rodeo barrel racing and NASCAR).

[/QUOTE]but when you go beyond that and start studying more than what happened before the Roman and Greek empires, things really start dramatically change when we look at the high cultures that came out of Africa.[/QUOTE]

I got a tiny spattering of Egyptian history in high school and even less about African civilizations farther south.  You've discussed the Moors - I had to learn of the Caliphate on my own for any topic other than algebra.  I only learned Armenian history because I lived in Pasadena for years and I was able to tap into Roman and Parthian history with Armenia being a buffer zone between those warring world powers.  To learn anything about civilizations further east I had to do so on my own.

So I see local centrism where you see bias and suppression.  The difference between the two is smaller than one might think.  It's like that famous cover of New Yorker magazine that showed the distance between NYC and Jersey City, the distance between Jersey City and Los Angeles, the distance between Los Angeles and Tokyo as the same distances.


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## Bro. Vincent

dfreybur said:


> The United States is a part of the Anglo-Germanic branch of western civilization with plenty of influence from the Franco-Latin and Helenic branches of western civilization.  It is natural that our schools should teach western civilization with a local focus and thus they tech US history and then European history back to the Roman and Greek eras.  We only learn of the Parthians and Persians from the wars they fought with the Romans and Greeks.  We only learn of Egypt from the deep influence they had on the Romans and Greeks and through their occupations by the Romans and Greeks.  Color and race have been problematic in the Americas but did not matter in other parts of western civilization.  (You will want to point out the diversity of people was lower but that's because of historical difficulty of travel, but consider Julius, Anthony and Cleopatra).  While creed has in the past been a part of western civilization as Christianity wiped out previous religions it no longer is now that we have freedom of religion and separation of church and state.  Ethnic background is simple - We are ethnic Americans, ethnic Anglo-Germanic westerners, ethic westerners, ethnic old worlders, ethnic Earthers.  This is a matter of culture not race and that's the cultural tree we come from. here.  Ethnic cleansing in the Slavic region made it clear that "ethnic" is a matter of cultural choice not of race.  (As I currently reside in Texas and we have a NASCAR track in Austin I'll point out race is very much cultural.  We do rodeo barrel racing and NASCAR).


but when you go beyond that and start studying more than what happened before the Roman and Greek empires, things really start dramatically change when we look at the high cultures that came out of Africa.[/QUOTE]

I got a tiny spattering of Egyptian history in high school and even less about African civilizations farther south.  You've discussed the Moors - I had to learn of the Caliphate on my own for any topic other than algebra.  I only learned Armenian history because I lived in Pasadena for years and I was able to tap into Roman and Parthian history with Armenia being a buffer zone between those warring world powers.  To learn anything about civilizations further east I had to do so on my own.

So I see local centrism where you see bias and suppression.  The difference between the two is smaller than one might think.  It's like that famous cover of New Yorker magazine that showed the distance between NYC and Jersey City, the distance between Jersey City and Los Angeles, the distance between Los Angeles and Tokyo as the same distances.[/QUOTE]

That is an interesting way to look at things. I agree with most of what you've stated... And I love the fact that you made a point to say alot of what you've learned you've learned on your own.

Side Bar: Humanity has to start with everyone accepting everyone else's cultural identities and respecting them... But that is not the case. Although I live in and love this country I still want the 40 million black folk in this country to know who they were before Africa was colonized... Not only that all Americans should know this history  because of how this country was founded and built.

Also it's important to note how it also influenced American freemasonry. Prince Hall new exactly what he was doing when he named his first lodge "African "Lodge.

I do not look to bring up these topics everyday all day. But we as Americans, all Americans at some point should understand the real history of the world so that travesties like the African slave trade, the mass murder of Jews, the Slavic wars never ever happen again. 

And because we mason can have a wonderful and intelligent dialogue lets me know we all headed in the right direction.

By the way, the dead horse was supposed to have been beaten on this topic lol.


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## Bro_Vick

Race is the wrong term, it is far more about cultural issues that divide us than racial, at least from my limited experiences.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## Bro. Vincent

Unfortunately in this country they go hand in hand... 


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## stuntman98

Race is the reason, that PHA exist, but we need to put a end to the race issues, only time will tell.

PM Pride of Walton #110
SW Sons of Light #77
Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
Grand Technician WFOT


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## dew_time

stuntman98 said:


> Race is the reason, that PHA exist, but we need to put a end to the race issues, only time will tell.
> 
> PM Pride of Walton #110
> SW Sons of Light #77
> Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
> Grand Technician WFOT



Are we still discussing visitation or are we now discussing intergration? Wow... I never thought in a million years I'd ever use that word in sentence or discussion outside of a history class!!

I never realized,being a country bunkin and sheltered most of my life, that race was still an issue until Bro. Vincent brought it to my attention. 

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## JJones

Visitation is pretty feasible if enough people push for it.

Integration?  I don't see that happening for several reasons and I can't see either GL really wanting that.


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## bupton52

dew_time said:


> I never realized,being a country bunkin and sheltered most of my life, that race was still an issue until Bro. Vincent brought it to my attention.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Unfortunately it is. There is a guy at my job who, until I politley let him know where I stood, would routinely call people colored. Not only did nobody say anything to him, but they made excuses for him. It wasnt until a 6ft tall black guy with two half sleeves, and at that time a mouth full of gold teeth (me), set him straight, that the foolishness stopped. We now speak cordially whenever we meet up. He wears a 32 degree ring but I dont know for certain if he is an active GLoTX member or not. 

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## Bro. Vincent

Everything is subtle these days.  I do find it offensive when a white person says " you are so articulate". As opposed to what? Lmao!!! 

Im getting beyond those things and as the brother posted earlier that alot of it is cultural misunderstandings. 

But because of this country's past race unfortunately matters. I do believe people 30 years old and younger have a different perspective on these issues, doesn't mean we should forget. 

Again as far as integration goes, when I was raised there was a mainstream brother who attended our lodge. Super respectful very knowledgable and stayed for 8 hours when it was over just so he could come congratulate me. 

Totally beautiful thing to witness. All the PHA accepted him with open arms. He was tried when got there then after that he was treated just like every other brother. Love it!





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## dew_time

Bro. Vincent said:


> Again as far as integration goes, when I was raised there was a mainstream brother who attended our lodge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile


There are several black men that are MMs in the lodge I petitioned. It hasn't always been that way but I'm glad it is.

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## Bro. Vincent

dew_time said:


> There are several black men that are MMs in the lodge I petitioned. It hasn't always been that way but I'm glad it is.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Me too brother. We are slowly getting there but that doesn't mean we should stop challenging it. Ok. Now I mean it. I'm done with this thread LMAO!


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## dew_time

Bro. Vincent said:


> Me too brother. We are slowly getting there but that doesn't mean we should stop challenging it. Ok. Now I mean it. I'm done with this thread LMAO!
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



I was just about say see.. this horse isn't dead yet, it still kicks around when you beat it, lol.

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## Bro. Vincent

dew_time said:


> I was just about say see.. this horse isn't dead yet, it still kicks around when you beat it, lol.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Stop it! I'm trying bury this damn horse! Lmao!


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## dew_time

Ok.. I'll stop, lol

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## stuntman98

dew_time said:


> Are we still discussing visitation or are we now discussing intergration? Wow... I never thought in a million years I'd ever use that word in sentence or discussion outside of a history class!!
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



I guess both could be correctly interpreted, but I am talking about acceptance which would ultimately lead to visitation.

PM Pride of Walton #110
SW Sons of Light #77
Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
Grand Technician WFOT


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## dew_time

stuntman98 said:


> I guess both could be correctly interpreted, but I am talking about acceptance which would ultimately lead to visitation.
> 
> PM Pride of Walton #110
> SW Sons of Light #77
> Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
> Grand Technician WFOT



Dang it... acceptance... I should have thought of that one too!

So you would want PHA to remain black and MS to remain white as long as visitation was acceptable? 

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## stuntman98

I want brethren to dwell together in unity.

PM Pride of Walton #110
SW Sons of Light #77
Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
Grand Technician WFOT


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## dew_time

stuntman98 said:


> I want brethren to dwell together in unity.
> 
> PM Pride of Walton #110
> SW Sons of Light #77
> Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
> Grand Technician WFOT



Unity, visitation and acceptance makes sense to me.

Are there any other races in PHA? Concidering its history of how and why it came to be I could totally respect it being exclusive to black men.

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## Bill Lins

dfreybur said:


> I'll point out race is very much cultural.  We do rodeo barrel racing



Bro. Doug, if you haven't been to a "black" rodeo then you've never seen a real rodeo!


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## dew_time

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Bro. Doug, if you haven't been to a "black" rodeo then you've never seen a real rodeo!



For 3 years I was the only white member of a "black" church. I don't know what that has to do with a rodeo but I thought I'd throw that out there since were using quotes now to define people, lol.

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## Bro. Vincent

dew_time said:


> Unity, visitation and acceptance makes sense to me.
> 
> Are there any other races in PHA? Concidering its history of how and why it came to be I could totally respect it being exclusive to black men.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Yes the are other races of people that are PHA all over the globe. It really is fascinating once you think about it.


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## dew_time

Bro. Vincent said:


> Yes the are other races of people that are PHA all over the globe. It really is fascinating once you think about it.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



So the seperation is mainly between PHA and MS lodges. That's interesting...

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## dew_time

I hope that no one takes any of my questions or comment personally. I am curious because I don't know. Its not intended to come off as an evil whitey attitude. I have nothin but respect for this topic and the struggle that has been represented. Thanks 

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## Bro. Vincent

dew_time said:


> I hope that no one takes any of my questions or comment personally. I am curious because I don't know. Its not intended to come off as an evil whitey attitude. I have nothin but respect for this topic and the struggle that has been represented. Thanks
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Just an open and intelligent discussion. Open and respectful dialogue fosters love and understanding. But also one must  have to be in a space where you are comfortable in your own skin to discuss these things. 


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## dew_time

Bro. Vincent said:


> Just an open and intelligent discussion. Open and respectful dialogue fosters love and understanding. But also one must  have to be in a space where you are comfortable in your own skin to discuss these things.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Excellent!! You have brought knowledge, shown me honesty and have earned more respect in these few days than most people I've known all my life. If this is what being a Mason is going to bring to my life then I know for a fact I have finally found my place. Thank you for this and for representing yourself and the Masons the way you have. I truelly feel, that with you, I have made a brother for life.
Doug

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## stuntman98

We are open to all races, we have had Koreans, Filipinos, Whites, Africans and even Muslims in my mother lodge.

PM Pride of Walton #110
SW Sons of Light #77
Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
Grand Technician WFOT


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## Traveling Man

dew_time said:


> So the seperation is mainly between PHA and MS lodges. That's interesting...
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile




And Vice Versa...!


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## dew_time

Traveling Man said:


> And Vice Versa...!



I assumed as much. Its kind of shame that both camps are open to all walks of life yet unity between them is an issue. I get it now, i don't fully understand why, but I don't think this forum would be the proper place to pose or discuss what's on my mind at this. point.

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## baruchhc

The lodge I belong to, Lebanon #837, in Frisco, Texas is also diverse. Not to long ago we had a muslim WM. 

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## stuntman98

I always tell brothers that we all take the same obligation and if you belong to a regularly constituted lodge then you should be welcome by all men under the square

PM Pride of Walton #110
SW Sons of Light #77
Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
Grand Technician WFOT


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## Bro. Vincent

You guys are keeping the horse on life support. Lol. I know things are getting better on a diversity stand point. But now it may be more about how fast initiates are being initiated, passed and raised in lodges just to get their numbers up. I went through hell and back to be Master Mason, personally and physically and I'm not talking about hazing. My WM felt like my Cable Tow's and I were getting it easy in the beginning, so he turned up the juice on us...and made sure we understood what it was going to take to get our 3rd degrees...He said it took him a few years to get all three degrees, because they didn't cut any corners in proficiency back then...He told me us we would appreciate at it more and he wasn't kidding.

So maybe we should turn the corner on this because I think we all agree it's changing slowly, but we also have to push for change, because sometime change doesn't come easily. Now I got to re-dig a whole for this horse!


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## dew_time

Bro. Vincent said:


> You guys are keeping the horse on life support. Lol.



You wanted 100 post in this topic... I did my part, lol!

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## inked_biker

I can say that my initiation, passing,  and raising in a Prince Hall lodge, created some of the best memories.   Also it created a tighter bond than what I have found in MS Masonry.  Don't get me wrong they both offer great knowledge but when it comes to degree work and proficiency Prince Hall was hard nosed.  I feel fortunate to have experienced both because I continue my Prince Hall traditions.   

The only reason I left Prince Hall was because I moved to a city that doesn't have a Prince Hall lodge and the closest is 2 hour's away.  And an 8am meeting 2 hours away is not how I want to spend a Saturday.  Lol.  

I think both Lodges have a lot to learn from each other.   But as long as you let your light shine we will be the greatest fraternity once again. 

PM Ace James
Yakima Compass Lodge 24 F&AM WA


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## Bro. Vincent

Now that is some interesting insight since you are member of both GLs. I have heard that before from MS brothers, that it seems to be alot more stringent in the PHA degree work. 

Man I was sweating bullets during my FC proficiency testing, because I had go back to all the EA stuff, all the way through to FC and then from EA to FC to MM stuff to be raised...My raising was during at districts in my jurisdiction, so there were about 20 other lodges being represented and about 70-80 people watching...Man you talk about pressure! But when it was over  everyone single person came up to congratulate me and spent time with me. What a beautiful day. There was one MS brother there and he was extremely impressed with the degree work and "the skit".

I did say that didn't I lol!


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## inked_biker

Man if I could only tell how my study groups went, how much sweated and how scared I was.  And all the memory work that I (we) had to put in.  It's not like that in the MS lodge.  We don't have the study groups, or the pressure and anticipation of getting the next degree.  

My opinion is that a MS lodge believes in the more lengthy degree work.  Where Prince Hall believes in doing it all from memory.   And allows for more fun during degrees and study groups. 

But like I have said if both lodges merged and took something from each other we would have a waiting list a mile long for candidates.  

PM Ace James
Yakima Compass Lodge 24 F&AM WA


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## stuntman98

Alright, putting down the horse beating stick!

PM Pride of Walton #110
SW Sons of Light #77
Spain Military Consistory Orient of Europe
Grand Technician WFOT


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## dfreybur

JJones said:


> Integration?  I don't see that happening for several reasons and I can't see either GL really wanting that.



Do you perhaps mean unification here?

All of lodges I am or have been affiliated with are integrated in the sense of mixed membership.  Same with tons of lodges I've visited over the years.  In my experience that's been a done deal for longer than there's been recognition with visitation.  In Texas with recognition but without visitation the lodges I have visited are mixed.  The majority of the members, but not all of the members, look like the brothers in century old photos.  Are there unmixed lodges?  Not ones I have affiliated with, not exactly astonishing how that part worked out.

Unification is a different story.  The original divergence happened for a bad reason but how we have two sibling traditions that are both well over two centuries old.  Should unification be offered in states where recognition has been in place for years?  It's under unofficial discussion in Illinois.  I doubt it will come to vote any time soon.  Two centuries of heritage,


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## JJones

For some reason I read it as integration of both GLs rather than integration of race.  Yes racial integration would be a good thing we just have to overcome some old mindsets.

For unification I'd have to ask why either GL would want to unify.  Whos bylaws and rules would take precidence?  Who would remain a Grand Officer and who gives up their seats?  I think it'd be a mess to iron out...even though it might be better in the long run 

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## widows son

I agree, unification would be messy. I personally wouldn't want to give up a position. Plus I think both GLs and local lodges would want to preserve their own history.


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## inked_biker

Oh it would definitely be a mess.  I was just saying that each has its great ideals and way of doing things.   

PM Ace James
Yakima Compass Lodge 24 F&AM WA


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## Bro. Vincent

I hadn't that about offices and seats changing hands so on and so forth, yeah that would nuts.


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## Bill Lins

dew_time said:


> For 3 years I was the only white member of a "black" church. I don't know what that has to do with a rodeo



The point I was making was that Bro. Doug seemed to be saying that NASCAR & rodeo are primarily "white folks" pastimes. Once he's been here a little longer, he'll find that it's not so.


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## Bro. Vincent

inked_biker said:


> Man if I could only tell how my study groups went, how much sweated and how scared I was.  And all the memory work that I (we) had to put in.  It's not like that in the MS lodge.  We don't have the study groups, or the pressure and anticipation of getting the next degree.
> 
> My opinion is that a MS lodge believes in the more lengthy degree work.  Where Prince Hall believes in doing it all from memory.   And allows for more fun during degrees and study groups.
> 
> But like I have said if both lodges merged and took something from each other we would have a waiting list a mile long for candidates.
> 
> PM Ace James
> Yakima Compass Lodge 24 F&AM WA



My study group was fun. We constantly challenged each other. But we also have each other so much love and support. If one person was not picking things up we go to his house and take turns working with him one on one. 

I want to be a part of my lodges traveling degree team and I hope my cable tows want to do it with me... I think we'd be awesome at some point.


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## Bill Lins

inked_biker said:


> Man if I could only tell how my study groups went, how much sweated and how scared I was.  And all the memory work that I (we) had to put in.  It's not like that in the MS lodge.  We don't have the study groups, or the pressure and anticipation of getting the next degree.
> 
> My opinion is that a MS lodge believes in the more lengthy degree work.  Where Prince Hall believes in doing it all from memory.   And allows for more fun during degrees and study groups.



My Brother, if you ever attend a MS Lodge in Texas, you might find things a bit different- we do EVERYTHING from memory. We have fun but we DO take the work seriously, from the catechism to the degree work to the floorwork.


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## Bro. Vincent

Sorry for my typos... I'm on  a crowded train going home from work.


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## dew_time

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> The point I was making was that Bro. Doug seemed to be saying that NASCAR & rodeo are primarily "white folks" pastimes. Once he's been here a little longer, he'll find that it's not so.



You can have NASCAR!! Haha. 

What I was talking about was unification. I may have used the wrong word when I said integration but by integration I ment of the two groups coming together as one and not the old 60's style. I miss spoke my words and I apologize. But you can NASCAR if you want it... 

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## Bro. Vincent

Lmao!!!


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## Bill Lins

Ah loves me some NASCAR!  :wink: Talk about beating horses...  :wink:


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## Bro. Vincent

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Ah loves me some NASCAR!  :wink: Talk about beating horses...  :wink:



That's even funnier! 


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## towerbuilder7

BRO. VINCENT, I agree with you statements about race/ethinicity.   RACE is a fairly modern term; However, *ETHNICITY/LAND OF ORIGIN* was how the ancients were referred to, and this included their country of origin, as well as their physical characteristics.   Historians throughout the ages have always noted the differences in physical characteristics as explorers "discovered" (I LOVE THAT TERM) lands that were new *TO THEM*.    

Also, "Blackness" has not mattered until the last two Centuries because that particular terminology was not used among the Ancients.  People of Color were usually referred to by their land of origin, i.e., Ethiopians, Hittites, Moabites, Philistines, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Mesopotamians, etc., as were other people, however, the differences were most definitely observed and noted by the Scribes/Historians of every era............As Americans, our Country is the most COLOR CONSCIOUS IN THE WORLD.........We made race a major issue during the Transatlantic Slave Trade, on through the Jim Crow Era, and even TODAY IN MASONRY------LOOK AT THE 9 SOUTHERN STATES THAT EITHER DON'T RECOGNIZE PHA MASONRY, NOR ALLOW INTERVISITATION..........It aint just coincidence, Brethren.......It's RACE, PREJUDICE, PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS, STEREOTYPING, MISCONCEPTIONS, MISEDUCATION, AND THE LIST GOES ON...........and both sides could be blamed for its continued hindrance in our PROGRESSION AS A BROTHERHOOD.

ALL THE MORE REASON FOR FELLOWSHIP AND INTERVISITATION AMONG THOSE WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES MORE AS *REAL MASONS AND BROTHERS* AND LESS AS "MEMBERS OF AN ORGANIZATION".........JUST MY TWO CENTS..........

BRO VINCENT C. JONES, SR., BAYOU CITY LODGE #228
PRINCE HALL AFFILIATION, FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONRY, HOUSTON, TEXAS
MOST WORSHIPFUL PRINCE HALL GRAND LODGE OF TEXAS


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## Bro. Vincent

towerbuilder7 said:


> BRO. VINCENT, I agree with you statements about race/ethinicity. RACE is a fairly modern term; However, *ETHNICITY/LAND OF ORIGIN* was how the ancients were referred to, and this included their country of origin, as well as their physical characteristics. Historians throughout the ages have always noted the differences in physical characteristics as explorers "discovered" (I LOVE THAT TERM) lands that were new *TO THEM*.
> 
> Also, "Blackness" has not mattered until the last two Centuries because that particular terminology was not used among the Ancients. People of Color were usually referred to by their land of origin, i.e., Ethiopians, Hittites, Moabites, Philistines, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Mesopotamians, etc., as were other people, however, the differences were most definitely observed and noted by the Scribes/Historians of every era............As Americans, our Country is the most COLOR CONSCIOUS IN THE WORLD.........We made race a major issue during the Transatlantic Slave Trade, on through the Jim Crow Era, and even TODAY IN MASONRY------LOOK AT THE 9 SOUTHERN STATES THAT EITHER DON'T RECOGNIZE PHA MASONRY, NOR ALLOW INTERVISITATION..........It aint just coincidence, Brethren.......It's RACE, PREJUDICE, PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS, STEREOTYPING, MISCONCEPTIONS, MISEDUCATION, AND THE LIST GOES ON...........and both sides could be blamed for its continued hindrance in our PROGRESSION AS A BROTHERHOOD.
> 
> ALL THE MORE REASON FOR FELLOWSHIP AND INTERVISITATION AMONG THOSE WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES MORE AS *REAL MASONS AND BROTHERS* AND LESS AS "MEMBERS OF AN ORGANIZATION".........JUST MY TWO CENTS..........
> 
> BRO VINCENT C. JONES, SR., BAYOU CITY LODGE #228
> PRINCE HALL AFFILIATION, FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONRY, HOUSTON, TEXAS
> MOST WORSHIPFUL PRINCE HALL GRAND LODGE OF TEXAS



That's a very insightful post brother! The aniceint people of color were very in tuned to the hue of their skin but there were predjudices becasue of it like there have been in western civilization. In an earlier post I explained, we know this to be true because of the representation of the Pineal Gland (and you must know what the it does for the melinated peoples of the earth) and what it meant to those peoples. Or as some poeple like to call it the 3rd eye.  

We must be careful when we use the terms like Egpytians, Moorsetc. You are right in those peoples did not cll themselves that Indo-Europeans and Europeans called them that to differiacaite their racial makeup. Egyptian is a curruption of the word Agypticus by the Greeks, meaning "burnt or black face". I am not making up fantasies with these things you can research it for  yourself. Just the term Moor or Mouros was also a European term which meant dark or black not muslim as so many wrongly throw out there...


I laughed out loud when I saw you highlighted discoverd...How does one discovery a land when there had been poeple established there who had been there 1000s of years before you arrived? Could  I just come to your house, kick the door in, bring in my furniture and family and say, Behold! I have discovered this house! Huh?

But I do agree with alot of what you have said. Excellent post brother!


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## James F Jackson

Thats The point

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## dew_time

Bro. Vincent said:


> I laughed out loud when I saw you highlighted discoverd...How does one discovery a land when there had been poeple established there who had been there 1000s of years before you arrived? Could  I just come to your house, kick the door in, bring in my furniture and family and say, Behold! I have discovered this house! Huh?



Ok... I had to laugh at this. No offense intended to the brother you are with but this was durn funny!!

I instantly thought of a line in song, 'this house is protected by god and a gun, you just might meet them both if you come round here uninvited'. Of course, just to clearify... any brother is welcome at my home.. even the ones of different hues 

Sent from my LG-VM696 using Freemasonry mobile app


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## Bro. Vincent

dew_time said:


> Ok... I had to laugh at this. No offense intended to the brother you are with but this was durn funny!!
> 
> I instantly thought of a line in song, 'this house is protected by god and a gun, you just might meet them both if you come round here uninvited'. Of course, just to clearify... any brother is welcome at my home.. even the ones of different hues
> 
> Sent from my LG-VM696 using Freemasonry mobile app


Now thats funny!


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## James F Jackson

Eyees of fire, hair of wool, and skin of content....

Was wondering why those who have exposed masonry documents have no been disembowled for breaking their oath. It sickens me , my soul cries when ever i see this disrespect..

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## Bro. Vincent

Probably because most of those people aren't masons. Or guys that are no longer active and want to write books and thinks it's a good way to make money. I only get into history openly... I personally will never break my oaths and obligations. I know guys that haven't been active in years and will never break their oaths and obligations, then there are some who will  go out and get drunk and start running their mouths for attention at a bar. 
Even if you do become inactive in masonry, you must always honor those things with which you "so solemnly and sincerely promised..."


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## dfreybur

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> The point I was making was that Bro. Doug seemed to be saying that NASCAR & rodeo are primarily "white folks" pastimes.



As I insist that race is about going fast, competing and getting timed, I listed the types of races I expect to find near me in Texas.  There's a NASCAR track in Austin just down the rode a piece.  I've seen billboards here in San Antonio that mention rodeos and I remembered seeing barrel races at rodeos I've been to.

Most of the rodeos I've seen have been northern affairs with plenty of cowboys from Montana and Alberta.  At those rodeos they sing the US and Canadian national anthems because of who's competing.  I learned O Canada as a kid when I grew up bicycle distance from the border.  I take it this far from that border they don't play O Canada.  Do they play the Mexican anthem at Texas rodeos because there are a lot of competitors from across that border?  I don't know the words to that one.



James F Jackson said:


> Was wondering why those who have exposed masonry documents have no been disembowled for breaking their oath. It sickens me , my soul cries when ever i see this disrespect.



It's how you're supposed to view yourself.  Our worst punishment is expulsion.

The fact that there are specific secrets that can be found in books doesn't mean we seek to destroy those books.  It means you need to look elsewhere if you want to find those books.  It means the fact that they can be found in books does not change how we deal with them.  We still need to pass a tiler before we discuss specific topics.

Some secrets don't matter.  There's the type of secret that is now taught in high school geometry that we learned long before we petitioned.  There's the type of secret we can shout from the rooftops but it stays intact - We treat each other as kin and there is no "how".  We Just Do It.


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## Bro. Vincent

dfreybur said:


> It's how you're supposed to view yourself.  Our worst punishment is expulsion.
> 
> The fact that there are specific secrets that can be found in books doesn't mean we seek to destroy those books.  It means you need to look elsewhere if you want to find those books.  It means the fact that they can be found in books does not change how we deal with them.  We still need to pass a tiler before we discuss specific topics.
> 
> Some secrets don't matter.  There's the type of secret that is now taught in high school geometry that we learned long before we petitioned.  There's the type of secret we can shout from the rooftops but it stays intact - We treat each other as kin and there is no "how".  We Just Do It.



Are you from Montana?


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## inked_biker

That's why you have the name Cautious. 

PM Ace James
Yakima Compass Lodge 24 F&AM WA


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## James F Jackson

I look forward to passing a tiler one day

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## Bro. Vincent

inked_biker said:


> That's why you have the name Cautious.
> 
> PM Ace James
> Yakima Compass Lodge 24 F&AM WA



Bingo!


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## Howard1977

Regardless it is up to us to change things. That's the bottom line.


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## Bro. Vincent

You too brother!


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## Bro. Vincent

Howard1977 said:


> Regardless it is up to us to change things. That's the bottom line.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile


I agree and that was my original point way back when we started this thread. Sometimes change has to forced than waiting for it. But I also old habits die hard. On both sides of the fence.


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## James F Jackson

Well as long as the fence stays mended an re-infoced by its foundation hoplfully it with never fall

Will me being married affect my petition? 
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## inked_biker

James F Jackson said:


> Goodafternoon will me being married affect my petition?
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Depends on how the lodge operates I know that the Lodge I belonged to if the wife said no way then it was a no.  But if she said that it is ok then there is no problem.  So make sure that you inform your wife of your intentions. .

PM Ace James
Yakima Compass Lodge 24 F&AM WA


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## Bro. Vincent

James F Jackson said:


> Goodafternoon will me being married affect my petition?
> Freemason Connect Mobile



No not at all unless your wife openly objects to you joining the lodge. I'm married... During my investigation they asked my wife a few simple questions and they were done with her and turned their attention back to me. It will be no issue at all...


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## James F Jackson

can tattoos disqaulify you if you have any on you chest

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## dew_time

I have them on my hands, all over my arms and on my chest... I hope not!!

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## dew_time

James F Jackson said:


> Goodafternoon will me being married affect my petition?
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Did you petition?! I hope so!!

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## Bro. Vincent

James F Jackson said:


> can tattoos disqaulify you if you have any on you chest
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



That may be up to your lodge depending what they are and say.... I plenty of brothers that have tats in my lodge. Some representing their stint in the military or a loved one etc.


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## James F Jackson

Hey dew, i still have to visit them a few times before i petition.

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## James F Jackson

Thank you, guess i will find out when i get the chance to visit them. its a lodge locate in miami shores in north miami beach fl.  lodge name is village lodge 315. lots of elders there, looks like a good place to start my jounrney.

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## Bro. Vincent

James F Jackson said:


> Thank you, guess i will find out when i get the chance to visit them. its a lodge locate in miami shores in north miami beach fl.  lodge name is village lodge 315. lots of elders there, looks like a good place to start my jounrney.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Make sure they aren't clandestine. 


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## kosei

[URL]http://www.grandlodgeofghana.org/main/[/URL]





mensahisaac86 said:


> I am from Ghana
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile


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## James F Jackson

not sure what that means but will look it up

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## inked_biker

James F Jackson said:


> can tattoos disqaulify you if you have any on you chest
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



I sure hope not I have tats all over my neck hands, arms, legs, chest, and back.  And I have been the head of just about every body in Masonry.  And I am not even the most tattooed guy in the jurisdiction.  

PM Ace James
Yakima Compass Lodge 24 F&AM WA


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## James F Jackson

absoulutly lol

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## Bro. Vincent

James F Jackson said:


> not sure what that means but will look it up
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile


Check with your states Grand Lodge to make sure they legitimate 


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## James F Jackson

yes they are on the lodge list

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## dew_time

James F Jackson said:


> Thank you, guess i will find out when i get the chance to visit them. its a lodge locate in miami shores in north miami beach fl.  lodge name is village lodge 315. lots of elders there, looks like a good place to start my jounrney.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



I'm happy you found a lodge to visit. I hope it works out and you indeed can begin the first day of the rest of your life.

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## James F Jackson

thank you

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## Blake Bowden

Jumping in late to the discussion. I believe there is racism on both sides, or at least a sense of mistrust in legitimate PHA organizations. As far as clandestine lodges, they are problems we all face.


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## Bro. Vincent

Bro. Blake I will say this... I understand what you are getting at but, I will humbly say IMO, it is not correct when people of color around the globe are called racist. 

Racism  is a term used when a group oppresses another group( be it social, economical, physical or physiological and/or in the case of slavery all four) based on the color of their skin. And black people are not in position to oppress anyone!

Where prejudice simply means in this context to Pre- Judge a person based on their skin color or culture. We are all certainly capable of that...

So I feel the PHA aren't in a position  to be racist. I personally feel the GLs of PHA around the world on some levels have given up trying to be recognized by MS lodges,  because it feels there will never be honest and mural recognition. 

The damage slavery has caused in this country will never go  away until this country has an honest discussion about it. And the masonic landscape is just an microcosm of the country at large. 

 I think PHA Grand lodges feel as if, you know what? We have our degree work and rituals why should we fight this battle when we don't have to...we have our original warrant/charter. We won in federal court to be recognized as a legitimate body and there is no reason that we should have to continue to fight to be recognized. ( and I am saying "I think"  that is the consensus) 

Sounds like the same thing as civil rights fights when even though black folks were free from slavery, Jim Crow was alive and well ripe with Racism.

I do agree with what a poster said earlier in this thread that as younger members on both sides come up more of those walls will be broken down. 

But I do feel there are some cultural things in PHA lodges that are probably different than in MS lodges and I personally would hate to see those things disappear because the lodges combine...from a cultural aspect.


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## Michael Hatley

I will say two things:

1. There are extremes to everything.

2. Speaking about Texas, as Texas only here - the more I dig, the more I find that the ball is well and truly in PH's court.  I'll post specifics at some point soon (some of the things were communicated to me on the square, or it was implied), but brass tacks here: _*do not assume this problem is rooted in "mainstream" Grand Lodges*_.  Not even in the deep south.  I did that.  I'm finding out I assumed wrong.

A very, very real truth: Prince Hall Master Masons are going to have to lean on their Grand Lodges.  Not for the reasons you might think - to stir them to action, swallow their pride or something of that sort.  Rather, to convince.  

And in the end it may require changes of leadership.

I'm going to throw out something for some of the lurking long time PHA Masons to chew on.  How much does an endowed membership cost at your lodge?  How much does it cost at one of the "upscale" PHA lodges in your state?   Check it.

Now consider that at my lodge, an endowment (life membership) is a mere $500.  And while some places in Texas it is more expensive (Holland #1, Doric, and others), there are still many, many, many GLoTX lodges that cost $500 or so.  And have yearly dues at around $100.

Now, think about it.  Really consider it.


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## Michael Neumann

Bro. Vincent said:


> Bro. Blake I will say this... I understand what you are getting at but, I will humbly say IMO, it is not correct when people of color around the globe are called racist.
> 
> Racism  is a term used when a group oppresses another group( be it social, economical, physical or physiological and/or in the case of slavery all four) based on the color of their skin. And black people are not in position to oppress anyone!
> 
> Where prejudice simply means in this context to Pre- Judge a person based on their skin color or culture. We are all certainly capable of that...
> 
> So I feel the PHA aren't in a position  to be racist. I personally feel the GLs of PHA around the world on some levels have given up trying to be recognized by MS lodges,  because it feels there will never be honest and mural recognition.
> 
> The damage slavery has caused in this country will never go  away until this country has an honest discussion about it. And the masonic landscape is just an microcosm of the country at large.
> 
> I think PHA Grand lodges feel as if, you know what? We have our degree work and rituals why should we fight this battle when we don't have to...we have our original warrant/charter. We won in federal court to be recognized as a legitimate body and there is no reason that we should have to continue to fight to be recognized. ( and I am saying "I think"  that is the consensus)
> 
> Sounds like the same thing as civil rights fights when even though black folks were free from slavery, Jim Crow was alive and well ripe with Racism.
> 
> I do agree with what a poster said earlier in this thread that as younger members on both sides come up more of those walls will be broken down.
> 
> But I do feel there are some cultural things in PHA lodges that are probably different than in MS lodges and I personally would hate to see those things disappear because the lodges combine...from a cultural aspect.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile


An honest discussion about race? 

Qualifying statement - My first girlfriend was dark skinned and my wife only dated darker guys before I met her. My best friend is Panamanian/Black American (his father was DARK so if you want to simplify to skin tones then he was indeed black) and we have had the below argument before. 

_*I am about to upset most readers so please pass this post.*_

First I am tired of all the racism directed at lighter (white) skinned Americans because of the past. The employment system is rigged in the minority's favor (Title 7) as are business grants and the government has openly stated they are going to award over 50% of all contracts to minority owned businesses.

"White" Americans have bent over backward to appease "Black" Americans. You know how often "Blacks" come up in chats with my friends? Never because it does not factor in to daily events, we chat about food, women, aircraft, MMA, whatever. I can tell you that I have walked into many many conversations between black guys where they were trashing whites... not that it is normal but it seems to be far more common than I would have thought. Think about it, how frequently have you complained about racism? I was personally sat down BY EMPLOYEE RELATIONS and told as a young white male I would not succeed in the company and I need to keep my head down and do as I was told, this was told to me by an American black female. You know what I did? Nothing, I ignored her and felt sorry that she was such a POS.

It is accepted in America that BET is ok but WET would not be  (and it would sound stupid), Ebony is ok but Ivory would not be the magazine Black Man is ok but a magazine White Man would not be. I can go on and on and on. If a black comedian makes the most awful dirty comments about whites it is funny but if a white comedian makes the slightest joke he is taken off the air.

Yes, racism is possible and is currently employed by America... against whites.  I am tired of hearing about this slavery sh-t. EVERY RACE IN THE WORLD has endured slavery... EVERYONE. It has been over 100 years and still there is this banter about racism and politically correct African American term..... Tell me, what part of Africa are you from, have you visited your relatives? If you cannot answer that then you are not African American... you are Simply American. My grandfather came to the US when he was 16 but I do not call myself European American because that is stupid. I am Simply American.

Get over your skin color.


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## James F Jackson

good morning went back home to key west, and went to a local club and witnessed a few navy guys in the club and a few of them had on blue shirts with a the square and compass printed on them. as the nite progressed they started hailing each other in the middle the dance floor. Even though i am not as mason, i felt they was being. disrespectful.

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## James F Jackson

yes i know spell check lol

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## El Dud3rino

Thank Bro. Michael Neumann,

Nobody has brought those points to the table so far.
The reality EVERYONE!!!!!!! Has a small amount of racism and prejudice in them...... Everyone! Think about it, don't react with out truly thinking about it. I'm not talking blacks or whites..... But maybe different maybe you don't like Mexican's or think that a certain race works slower or harder then another these are the undertones to racism and prejudice. We all have them, what is important is how we choose to act about them. We can grow or sit and drown in our own tears. I have had lots of things in my life happen that I could begin to dislike certain ethnic groups for things that have happened to me but they were not worth all that.
If we want harp on slavery...... Please let's stop,slavery  has taken place by almost every culture since time begin. And the funny thing is???? It's almost always the slaves own people selling the slaves. Look at history people and learn that your color does not define or cage you. Only you do! 


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## dew_time

El Dud3rino said:


> Thank Bro. Michael Neumann,
> 
> Nobody has brought those points to the table so far.
> The reality EVERYONE!!!!!!! Has a small amount of racism and prejudice in them...... Everyone! Think about it, don't react with out truly thinking about it. I'm not talking blacks or whites..... But maybe different maybe you don't like Mexican's or think that a certain race works slower or harder then another these are the undertones to racism and prejudice. We all have them, what is important is how we choose to act about them. We can grow or sit and drown in our own tears. I have had lots of things in my life happen that I could begin to dislike certain ethnic groups for things that have happened to me but they were not worth all that.
> If we want harp on slavery...... Please let's stop,slavery  has taken place by almost every culture since time begin. And the funny thing is???? It's almost always the slaves own people selling the slaves. Look at history people and learn that your color does not define or cage you. Only you do!
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



I can't say I agree with all that has been said here. I don't like terrorist but for the simple fact that I don't want to explode randomly while at a store or anything.

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## El Dud3rino

Nothing is as random as we think. The reality is if you think about how many random actions do you do? Or truly see? Did you randomly petition a lodge? Did you randomly find your wife? No these are all choices, logical at that. We have a choice of what we do, the actions we take give us results we intended. Life is not that random. 
That is more of what I'm getting at. You do not like A, so now you can choose how to react to A. You all ways have free choice. You can react in a positive or negative manner and then go from there. As Masons we choose (hopefully) a positive path one of enlightenment. 


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## Bro. Vincent

Michael Neumann said:


> An honest discussion about race?
> 
> Qualifying statement - My first girlfriend was dark skinned and my wife only dated darker guys before I met her. My best friend is Panamanian/Black American (his father was DARK so if you want to simplify to skin tones then he was indeed black) and we have had the below argument before.
> 
> _*I am about to upset most readers so please pass this post.*_
> 
> First I am tired of all the racism directed at lighter (white) skinned Americans because of the past. The employment system is rigged in the minority's favor (Title 7) as are business grants and the government has openly stated they are going to award over 50% of all contracts to minority owned businesses.
> 
> "White" Americans have bent over backward to appease "Black" Americans. You know how often "Blacks" come up in chats with my friends? Never because it does not factor in to daily events, we chat about food, women, aircraft, MMA, whatever. I can tell you that I have walked into many many conversations between black guys where they were trashing whites... not that it is normal but it seems to be far more common than I would have thought. Think about it, how frequently have you complained about racism? I was personally sat down BY EMPLOYEE RELATIONS and told as a young white male I would not succeed in the company and I need to keep my head down and do as I was told, this was told to me by an American black female. You know what I did? Nothing, I ignored her and felt sorry that she was such a POS.
> 
> It is accepted in America that BET is ok but WET would not be  (and it would sound stupid), Ebony is ok but Ivory would not be the magazine Black Man is ok but a magazine White Man would not be. I can go on and on and on. If a black comedian makes the most awful dirty comments about whites it is funny but if a white comedian makes the slightest joke he is taken off the air.
> 
> Yes, racism is possible and is currently employed by America... against whites.  I am tired of hearing about this slavery sh-t. EVERY RACE IN THE WORLD has endured slavery... EVERYONE. It has been over 100 years and still there is this banter about racism and politically correct African American term..... Tell me, what part of Africa are you from, have you visited your relatives? If you cannot answer that then you are not African American... you are Simply American. My grandfather came to the US when he was 16 but I do not call myself European American because that is stupid. I am Simply American.
> 
> Get over your skin color.



Me. Neumann I'm not offended in the least because your argument is asinine at best to me. Your personal dealings in what you consider is affirmative Action against whites by black is ridiculous. And heard it a million times.

There is nothing you can put up my personal experiences in this country and call it reverse racism. And to clear the air here before you say I race bait and all that sort of nonsense, my wife is white and I have two beautiful children with her... Her family is and has been very accepting and loving of me and my family treats her the same. I want that on the record before I proceed...

Because you dated a "darker skinned" women and have a couple of "black friends" surely can't make you an expert on all things black, could it?

I work in corporate America and I assure you there are not bunches and bunches of blacks taking jobs from white men in this country. Thats street level boogie man crap to keep people divided...I will tell you what is happening is the expansion of laws to put more black kids in jail. This my brother is a fact.  Which is a totally different conversation. Please study the "Prison Industrial Complex".

My neighbor is black and has a contracting Busniess. He was awarded a federal contract only because the white Busniess he contracts with needed him to satisfy that portion of their contract bid, while they pay him peanuts. Of course. Happens everyday but you aren't told those stories...

I will leave you with this... Every time black folk band together and become industrious and self sufficient there is always an unseen hand trying to monopolize or destroy it... Why?

Please study the "Black Wall Street" of Tulsa, Ok. 





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## dew_time

El Dud3rino said:


> Nothing is as random as we think. The reality is if you think about how many random actions do you do? Or truly see? Did you randomly petition a lodge? Did you randomly find your wife? No these are all choices, logical at that. We have a choice of what we do, the actions we take give us results we intended. Life is not that random.
> That is more of what I'm getting at. You do not like A, so now you can choose how to react to A. You all ways have free choice. You can react in a positive or negative manner and then go from there. As Masons we choose (hopefully) a positive path one of enlightenment.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



I do agree with this. 

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## Bro. David F. Hill

Here goes my response:  You do have WET, it is every other channel other than BET.  You do have Ivory magazine, it is called Vogue, Elle, etc.  The largest group of minority owned businesses in Texas is WO/F.  A vast majority of these are white owned and some are ones where the husband gave the wife a 51% stake. You want to talk about Life Membership? Most states do not have any such program.  Look at Austin, for many generations blacks were segregated on the east side.  Go over there today and you will see that it has been gratified.  Blacks that have lived there for generations can no longer afford to live there.

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## Bro. Vincent

....see aren't we all having a brotherly good time? I gotta go, my family is coming I gotta get the grill going lol...I wish all brethren a safe and beautiful Memorial Day weekend!


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## dew_time

Bro. Vincent said:


> ....see aren't we all having a brotherly good time? I gotta go, my family is coming I gotta get the grill going lol...I wish all brethren a safe and beautiful Memorial Day weekend!
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Enjoy brother!! I'm about to watch my son graduate.. I feel so old today, lol.

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## dew_time

PH021211 said:


> Here goes my response:  You do have WET, it is every other channel other than BET.  You do have Ivory magazine, it is called Vogue, Elle, etc.  The largest group of minority owned businesses in Texas is WO/F.  A vast majority of these are white owned and some are ones where the husband gave the wife a 51% stake. You want to talk about Life Membership? Most states do not have any such program.  Look at Austin, for many generations blacks were segregated on the east side.  Go over there today and you will see that it has been gratified.  Blacks that have lived there for generations can no longer afford to live there.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



I think Harlem has gone though the same changes you mentioned east Austin has. Columbus Ohio is seeing the same thing... 

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## El Dud3rino

Look at the big picture Bro Vincent and understand that what you see in your area does not reflect the rest of the world. Through out my career and life I have lived and worked in large corp areas. Detroit(proper not burbs), Houston, Dallas, Chicago, New Orleans, Norfolk, Boston. I have seen blacks excel in all those areas, both in corp setting and personal endeavors. So I think it comes down to a story I heard in church once that basically says if you look for something you will find it.


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## Bro. Vincent

El Dud3rino said:


> Look at the big picture Bro Vincent and understand that what you see in your area does not reflect the rest of the world. Through out my career and life I have lived and worked in large corp areas. Detroit(proper not burbs), Houston, Dallas, Chicago, New Orleans, Norfolk, Boston. I have seen blacks excel in all those areas, both in corp setting and personal endeavors. So I think it comes down to a story I heard in church once that basically says if you look for something you will find it.
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



I always try to look at the bigger picture but you cant discount the little things that shape your experiences in life. When you have small children you know God willing, they are going to get bigger at some point and they are going to grow up and leave home. So you cherish the small moments you have while their young. And those experiences shape your life's past and future.

I am not wrapped up in trying to throw things in people's face and create a woe is black folk scenario, but  let's call a spade a spade. That's all I'm saying, no more no less... I try to speak truths and it gets me in trouble at times but if you can't be honest then you simply can't be...

I'm not saying that black people dont have a lot to work to do in this society, don't get me wrong, but the issue is systemic and to fix it you've got to identify the root issue and deal with it. 

If you have a cockroach in your house and you spray and kill it, you pretty much know  there are 1000s of them somewhere in your house and if you don't find the root of them your issue is never solved...


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## El Dud3rino

Bro Vincent,
Bringing kids into this conversation is a great way to make my next point. The fact is that racism and prejudice are taught and learned by people we love and look up too. Nothing is learned from nothing every one has a source be it good or bad, we all have a source we learn from, look at Masonry in general( including all bodies) you have a mentor bringing you up in the degrees. You learn from them what Masonry is about so it shapes your outlook. Same thing with kids and people. So if we teach them racism and prejudice they will grow up with it. Even if you teach them you had difficult issues with race, they too will wear that yoke of burden. I personally have been working with my kids to understand borders, colors, and religion do not confine people. 
About East Austin, people will always want to be around their own people, hence "birds of a feather, flock together". Urban renewal is and has happened every where I have lived. It's not about running races out of neighborhoods, it's about getting higher tax rates for buildings so cities can continue. Many of the projects I walked through to my elementary school in Norfolk were closed down and new ones put up. The people stayed but payed more in taxes. Houston and Detroit are the same as well.
Bro. Vincent, to a certain degree you like to stir the pot, if not you would not have brought this subject up. We have to start being real and understanding what motivates us to do things or we teach our kids lies. Think about this before you respond. It's easy to have a knee jerk reaction and say no, but actions speak louder then words. 
Words are empty, we attach meanings and thoughts to them that are mere speculation. When in truth we could say A but mean Z. When I work with people training them the first thing I let them know is their words are empty but will be filled by their actions.


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## jwhoff

All.  Please remember that Brother Newman has taken the step to poll masons throughout Texas in an effort to put pressure on the two grand lodges to act.  

This brother is walking the walk!  He's put his reputation and, yes, masonry on the line to bring us all closer.  This is a young man I, personally, am proud to call brother.  His statements above are not without much justification.  

During my professional career I did see much of what he proposes.  I too saw little opportunity for minorities and women during my earlier days.  Like busing, i saw laws changed to change the inequality.  Yes, I've seen abuses and advantage taken often during my lifetime.  Things are better now.  Companies are more and more hiring the best applicants and promoting the best minds.

Make no mistake, equality is not here nor do I expect it will ever be possible.  

More of late I have seen the Americans, of any color, passed on to hire foreign nationals with equal qualifications.  Companies are now paying these foreign nationals less money to do the same work ... just as they once did minorities and continue to do to females in the professional world.  

I do not wish to steal the thread but I do wish to draw your attention to the very real economic revolution we, as a planet, are now going through.  The national state is on its last legs, the age of the corporate state is upon us.  Watch closely the proceedings of the Global Eight and Global 24 nations during the coming months and years.  Individual states are going to try to wrestle power away from the global corporations, making them pay an equal share of taxes within each nation and become more responsive to their responsibilities within each nation.  

And, while you are considering this very important trend, consider how much energy peoples should be investing in racism and religious conflict.  Inequality may well soon be measured more than by the skin tone or gender of the individual.  

Again, please ponder this but do not allow it to steal the thread.


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## Bro. David F. Hill

Until you have been picked up because you kinda looked like someone who was accused of doing something, you will not get it.  This incident happened to me when I lived in Houston in 1990.  I have lived through a lot of "Urban Renewal" beginning back in the 1970's.  Back then you had what was euphemistically called "White Flight" to the suburbs.  To make the statement that "people will always want to be around their own people, hence "birds of a feather, flock together" shows that you are young and do not know the history of Austin or many cities for that matter.  For many generations blacks could not live anywhere else but the east side. Even now, there are places that I don't want to find myself at when the streetlights come on.  At 56, I have seen and experienced the good and bad that people can do.  I could be bitter but I refuse to be.  I leave you with this question;  How many of you respect the current President?  Did you respect the previous one?  And before you start bringing up supposed controversies, do some research.  You will find that each one had his own share but many want to use the these current ones to derail policies that would benefit the many.


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## Bro. David F. Hill

I have no problem with him in his quest but don't confuse that with thinking you understand being black.  I spoke on it this weekend.  But I do want to publically commend Brother Hoff for an enlightening post.  While the powers that be have us arguing over black vs white, they are screwing us all for green.


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## jwhoff

Agreed. 

I can honestly tell you I respect both Presidents Bush and Obama.  They were chosen to lead the country.  Neither has broken the law.  

That is very much not to say about my agreement with what they did in office.

However, some of the same folks who currently disrespect President Obama were also raising the devil about President Bush.  Anyone who discusses a president's actions without calling him President has little respect from me.  My political views have absolutely no bearing on the way I address the potus' position of authority.  

Civility and a lack of respect abound in our society today.  It will come to no good end.


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## jwhoff

PH021211 said:


> I have no problem with him in his quest but don't confuse that with thinking you understand being black.  I spoke on it this weekend.  But I do want to publically commend Brother Hoff for an enlightening post.  While the powers that be have us arguing over black vs white, they are screwing us all for green.



Understanding your last statement will, hopefully someday, make us all free men.  

And yes, no white man can put himself in the shoes of another race.  In fact, no man can put himself in the shoes of another.  Empathy is just not that strong.

But you are right to consider the source and not let their action govern your one and only life brother.

I oft-times wonder how those who talk "chip on the shoulder" would handle the slurs.  But then again, I think I have a very good idea.  

God bless, protect, and forgive us all.


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## Bro. David F. Hill

I have met many older members of the Grand Lodge of Texas that at one time might have called me n***** but these men met me on the level and we parted on the square.  They show me that there is a change of attitude coming.  I would have no problem breaking bread with these men.  Oh for the day when we can sit and listen to the "old-timers" from both Grand Lodges impart light to us younger folks.


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## Bill Lins

Bro. Vincent said:


> it is not correct when people of color around the globe are called racist.
> 
> Racism  is a term used when a group oppresses another group( be it social, economical, physical or physiological and/or in the case of slavery all four) based on the color of their skin. And black people are not in position to oppress anyone!



My Brother, I must disagree with you on this. "Racism" is defined as one person or group regarding or treating another person or group differently solely due to a difference in race. Oppression is just one result, among many, stemming from racism. Blacks, Asians, and Middle Easterners are just as capable of being racist as are Caucasians, and quite often are. As MLK correctly stated (paraphrasing), we must learn to judge others by the content of their character rather than their origin or the color of their skin.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

Brethren,

We have now debated this topic in one form or direction for some 200 posts. As best that I can tell we are no better off than when we first began. Is there really any need to continue to chase each other in circles? It seems that everyone who has something to contribute has done so, and at times with a lot more emotion than is normally acceptable in a more formal debate. Everyone has done very well with their own self control, but there is going to be obvious personal feelings involved. There is a LONG road ahead for all of us BRETHREN in regards to racial tension, none of which can be solved via the internet. Walls come down only in person, one victory at a time. It is just my humble opinion that your energies here be funneled in other directions.

Unless there is some drastic reason to keep this topic open, I suggest it be closed and our efforts devoted to other areas of discussion around this site.


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## Bill Lins

Let's let it run a little longer. If things begin to get out of hand, we can shut it down then. Stopping a discussion prematurely tends to upset all involved, with good reason.


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## Bro. Vincent

Look to the gentleman that said I like to stir the pot. There are over 200 posts in this thread obviously it is something that has been lying in the weeds and people wanted to discuss it. So if I'm stirring the pot to stir discussion so be it.

When this thread finally comes to an end ( and hopefully it will) all of you all will still be my brothers. I just think sometimes some people get uncomfortable when discussing it. And that's ok. Atleast  we're discussing it. Alot of people made alot of valid points that I hadn't considered. I have to be honest about that.  

But to basically say get over it, turn the page, move on etc. is disrespectful and only agitates the issue even more... I humbly ask, Does that make sense? 

To the poster who said that people of color can be racist is comical and flat out wrong. You have to be in a position of authority to be racist. That point is and has been since the end of the Jim Crow era a fundamental  argument amongst black and white scholars all over this country. By the way what is reverse racism? That term is silly to me.

Look, just because we are masonic brothers doesn't mean we will not have disagreements. 

Someone said its about the choices you make in life. He's right. Life is about choices, but the problem is the deck isn't handed out evenly. And it has never been...So one has to make choices on the limited options you have in front of you, when there is  a system in place to discourage your success. Not saying give or stop trying to do better fir yourself but black folk are keenly aware that's there...

Just because you have a few wealthy black people and a black president doesn't ring the bells for prosperity for black folk. This country was built on slavery and has caused black and white folk alike to still feel the physiological effects from it til this day. We have to find a way to heal from this...

Is it better for blacks than it was 40 years ago absolutely, is the playing Feild level and even, absolute not...

And this notion  that is taught to people all over the world the black folks in this country are lazy, want a hand out, are gangsters, thieves, drug dealers, have multiple baby momas, always relying on the government, only play sports, want to rape women, so on and so forth is media hype. I should i say alot of it is..Because we as a people are not in a position to control our image to the masses via mass media, these are the images that are played for and about us to the world.


And because of that, I didn't expect many to understand what I was getting at to a certain degree but atleast we were able to discuss it in a respectful manner. That's where the seed of change starts. Even if the GLs didn't want to recognize one another or not visit each others lodges they are only as powerful as the members that make up the subordinate lodges. 

I've been actively trying to visit MS lodges in my state of Mo. And I will continue to do so... The responses so far have been not bad at all. So I can personally feel some progress.

But if stirring the pot offers positive and respectful debates which lead to solutions and understanding one another,  then again as states earlier, I stand guilty as charge my brethren.


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## Michael Neumann

You are correct, reverse racism is a silly and fake term... it is just plain racism

When I was a young man I knew nothing of color. My father was in the service and as such I attended diverse schools from day 1. Up until my early 20's I thought racism was something we read about in the history books and up until recently I though all masons walked the level. My experience with Employee Relations showed me that racism is still here and going strong and the multiple experiences I have had since starting the petition has shown me that not all masons walk the level. Masons on both sides of the fence have said some pretty crazy stuff to me.

Americans with darker skin can be just as prejudice/racist as their lighter skinned brothers. Saying this is not possible means that you can call me whatever racial slur you feel like and prevent me from getting a promotion as the ER lady did simply because I have lighter skin than you. Is this fair? Through Affirmative Action and the many many laws in our country the table is tilted in favor of minorities. It is not my fault that the prison systems have a high majority of Black Americans than White Americans, here is a great article on the subject http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2013/05/08/honest-examination-of-race-n1588213

The entire point of my previous post was to lay out all my irritations. After taking Business Law, Advanced Business Law, & Human Resource Management I have seen just how much the tables are tilted in the favor of minorities. Did you know that companies can be 100% minority and they will not be fined BUT if a predominantly majority company is not as equally diverse as the surrounding community the IRS fines them? Did you know that if I walk in with my degree that cost 40K and a minority walks in with their free HS diploma they will be hired before me because of the tax benefits? It has nothing to do with "taking jobs from white men" ... that is silly, what is fair is fair and the laws are not fair yet I still hear people complaining about being put down because they are black, what more do you want?

Equality can never be achieved through inequality.

Giving a hand out and making things easy in the short term is great but doing it in the long term makes people weak. The very laws that were meant to help pick-up our minority brethren are now starting to hurt them. Lowering test scores required for minorities to get into college suggests they are not capable of making the same scores as their majority brothers and sisters... and that is stupid because most of my friends are far more intelligent than I. Lowering employment requirements suggests that my minority brothers are not as efficient or capable on the job as I am... and that is silly because the PHA brother sitting to my right does almost twice the work I do. Giving a hand out makes people weak and they begin to not only depend on these lowered requirements but demand even more from the system.

In my personal opinion Blacks and Whites are equal in everything other than skin tone and until we as a nation understand this we will never get over the past. As a matter of fact you should read Thomas Jefferson's first draft of the Declaration, he attacks the King of England over the crown forcing slavery upon the nation. http://jeffersonpapers.princeton.ed...nal-rough-draught”-declaration-independence-0

"he has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating itâ€™s most sacred rights of life & liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. this piratical warfare, the opprobrium of _infidel_ powers, is the warfare of the CHRISTIAN king of Great Britain. determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce; and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which _he_ has deprived them, by murdering the people upon whom _he_ also obtruded them; thus paying off former crimes committed against the _liberties_ of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the _lives_ of another."


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## bupton52

Bro. Vincent said:


> To the poster who said that people of color can be racist is comical and flat out wrong. You have to be in a position of authority to be racist.



Why can't they be? I am just as uncomfortable with "white boys" and "white folks" being spoken by African-American people as I am with "colored" and "n****". Racism is racism is racism and ANYBODY can be a racist.


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## jnjones86

I'm not PHA but I appreciate your stance as a mason. Bravo! Even though PHA declined recognition in Arkansas, I feel that more masons with a stance like yours will improve our fraternity.


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## Bro. Vincent

You all have provided alot of passionate and thought provoking positions, lets now turn the corner to some answers to this discussion.

I will go first. How cool would it be to see PHA and MS members side by side at community events in the public's eye? Genuinely working together in the community?

Or an annual cookout? Where both sides can get together and fellowship openly with families and friends present as well? 

Even if the GLs didn't openly sponsor it , as long as the GLs recognize each other it would be not be breaking the GLs by laws.

Any ideas?


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## Michael Hatley

Such a good idea that something like that is already in the works :34:

Back a few pages, a bunch of you fellas skipped over something - I will try and draw your attention back to it.

Would my good Texas PHA Brethren be kind enough as to look up and post how much their dues and endowements cost them?  Same for Brethren on the other side of the fence.

Maybe I'm wrong or been given incorrect information, but I think it is an important point - something that gets lost in the more emotional parts of this issue.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

bupton52 said:


> Why can't they be? I am just as uncomfortable with "white boys" and "white folks" being spoken by African-American people as I am with "colored" and "n****". Racism is racism is racism and ANYBODY can be a racist.



I totally agree with Bro. Byron on his way of thought. Racism knows no color or gender, it just is.


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## Michael Neumann

Bro. Vincent said:


> You all have provided alot of passionate and thought provoking positions, lets now turn the corner to some answers to this discussion.
> 
> I will go first. How cool would it be to see PHA and MS members side by side at community events in the public's eye? Genuinely working together in the community?
> 
> Or an annual cookout? Where both sides can get together and fellowship openly with families and friends present as well?
> 
> Even if the GLs didn't openly sponsor it , as long as the GLs recognize each other it would be not be breaking the GLs by laws.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile


This is a fresh idea, I like it. Does anyone know if this would violate any laws, rules, or regulations? In TX we have mutual recognition... so technically this would work and it would be a great way of forcing movement in the GLs.


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## bupton52

Michael Neumann said:


> This is a fresh idea, I like it. Does anyone know if this would violate any laws, rules, or regulations? In TX we have mutual recognition... so technically this would work and it would be a great way of forcing movement in the GLs.



I dont think that this would violate any laws. We may not be able to tag it officially as a masonic gathering, but unofficially we could get it done. Its as simple as hey we are doing trash cleanup in x community today. Does your lodge want to come? 

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## Bro. Vincent

Again I am from ST. Louis, but I would more than willing to come down to Texas to support such an effort. And represent my home lodge there...I've slowly started fellowshipping with brethren from MS lodges here...

I would like to this sell this idea to my WM to see if our lodge could do the same thing here...


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## James F Jackson

ok next topic plz to all mentors and brothers, by the way 

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## James F Jackson

going to visit my local lodge named village lodge 315 in miami shores fl.  and nervous at the same time wish me luck.

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## dew_time

James F Jackson said:


> going to visit my local lodge named village lodge 315 in miami shores fl.  and nervous at the same time wish me luck.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Good luck!! Don't be nervous, they are great guys.

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## James F Jackson

thx

Sent from my LG-MS770 using Freemasonry mobile app


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## Bro. Vincent

James F Jackson said:


> thx
> 
> Sent from my LG-MS770 using Freemasonry mobile app



No offense Mr. Jackson, but if you want to discuss a different topic, there are many other topics to  respond to on this site... No one is forcing any one to stay around this thread. 

People  are now offering solutions and answers to all the previous posts which I welcome.

Seriously I'm not trying to sound like an A- hole, but you can always start your own topic thread and we can all come there and post our opinions there on whatever you want to discuss... 



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## James F Jackson

lol. none taking sir. being a bi racial person who`s mom is white and my father is black i have been a vitcim on both sides of the racisim. I have learned to avoid such topics, as in my experience  it will never cease thats just the plain truth. wether we like or not. No it"s not acceptable in regards to the craft, its up to all of us to make a mends and become a family of one. So as u know see thats why i tried to changed the subject. However if you all would like i will leave if you so desire with no hard feelings , no matter what you may feel I am still. your  brother running to the light.

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## James F Jackson

misspled a few words ooops

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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

inked_biker said:


> Man if I could only tell how my study groups went, how much sweated and how scared I was.  And all the memory work that I (we) had to put in.  It's not like that in the MS lodge.  We don't have the study groups, or the pressure and anticipation of getting the next degree.
> 
> My opinion is that a MS lodge believes in the more lengthy degree work.  Where Prince Hall believes in doing it all from memory.   And allows for more fun during degrees and study groups.
> 
> But like I have said if both lodges merged and took something from each other we would have a waiting list a mile long for candidates.
> 
> PM Ace James
> Yakima Compass Lodge 24 F&AM WA



I can guarantee that within my jurisdiction of "mainstream masonry", all of our degrees and esoteric work is 100% by memorization. The Grand Lodge of Texas A.F.&A.M. sets forth a very strict and unified program for masonry.


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## Bro. Vincent

James F Jackson said:


> lol. none taking sir. being a bi racial person who`s mom is white and my father is black i have been a vitcim on both sides of the racisim. I have learned to avoid such topics, as in my experience  it will never cease thats just the plain truth. wether we like or not. No it"s not acceptable in regards to the craft, its up to all of us to make a mends and become a family of one. So as u know see thats why i tried to changed the subject. However if you all would like i will leave if you so desire with no hard feelings , no matter what you may feel I am still. your  brother running to the light.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Bro. Jackson I am one that values everyone's opinion. And yes being bi-racial I would think you have a unique view to this subject. But I'm trying to end  the thread with positive solutions and answers and i think we are off to a good start. 

I will always fellowship with you on other topics if you choose not stay here.. I am interested  in your initiation, passing and celebrating your raising at some point.

So I just didnt want any ill will between us...


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## James F Jackson

Thank you sir, and i look forward to future threads with all on this forum. Especailly you.

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## Michael Neumann

Bro. Vincent said:


> Bro. Jackson I am one that values everyone's opinion. And yes being bi-racial I would think you have a unique view to this subject. But I'm trying to end  the thread with positive solutions and answers and i think we are off to a good start.
> 
> I will always fellowship with you on other topics if you choose not stay here.. I am interested  in your initiation, passing and celebrating your raising at some point.
> 
> So I just didnt want any ill will between us...
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile




This thread is doing well to those who are interested in distilling and working through some of the differences. I have had this very discussion with several of my good friends each time my thoughts on the matter grow and change. This is the first time I have openly stated my opinion on the subject and I only did so because of the level headed nature of brethren on the forum. I am willing to receive just as much as I put out, that is why my friends and I can go in on one another and not have any hurt feelings. This thread is mild in nature compared to some of the discussion I have had with my friends, in a debate the only rules are to support your opinion with verifiable evidence and keep emotions tempered. 

Rather than attempting to close the thread Brother Jackson you can contribute, I would very much like to hear your opinion and how best to resolve the disconnect that we see in our nation, turning a blind eye solves nothing. Or, if you want to focus on easy to swallow stuff there are a thousand other threads for you to read over.

This thread is coming to a natural conclusion anyhow with the brilliant idea that Brother Vincent suggested. It is a very simple suggestion and most solutions are exactly that. http://www.freemasoninformation.com/2011/10/masonic-holidays/ here is a list of holidays we observe. 

June 20th/21st – Saint John the Baptist Day / Summer Solstice
 June 24th, 1717 – Founding of the United Grand Lodge of England.

We have two BIG opportunites on the horizon. We can make this a TX thing OR we can make this a National thing... I might need some help with the Facebook ads this time. I have already thrown over 1K at the http://www.masonsoftexas.com/showth...ecognition-and-Visitation&p=100082#post100082 and my wife is getting a little irritated


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## Bro. Vincent

Thank you for those kind words Bro. Neumann. I would love to come to Texas to fellowship with you brethren. I know all of you come from different parts of the state but i love to visit and fellowship with you all...

On another note I just finished The Hiram Key and will be wanting to get some opinions on that document in another thread.


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## dew_time

This horse isn't dead yet? Lol!!
I agree that ignoring something wont make it go away. I found that ignoring things tend to make them worse. Tolerance isn't always the answer as that can fester and grow bigger problems as well. We should be willing tolearn from history if for other reason than to make sure it doesn't repeat itself. I have two favorite shirts that I wear often. One simple says, 'racism is the pits' and the other says, 'adopt a new attitude'. Both apply to every PERSON on this planet.

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## Michael Neumann

The Hiram Key is a pretty good book, I have read most of what Knight and Lomas have written. You should read Uriels Machine next https://kindle.amazon.com/work/urie...stonehenge-civilization/B000ATSY40/186204810X

A brief ‘How To’ on FaceBook Ads.



Notice the cog (gear) in the top right corner of your screen… click on it.
Click ‘Advertise’
Click ‘Create an Ad’
Click ‘Search by URL’ and paste www.facebook.com/MasonicAmity
Click ‘Promote Page Posts’
Check the box ‘Keep my ad up-to-date by automatically promoting my most recent post ’
In the box for ‘Precise Interests’ paste these keywords ( you can always add more) #freemasonry  #United Grand Lodge of England  #Grand Lodge of Texas  #History of Freemasonry  #York Rite  #Scottish Rite  #Prince Hall Freemasonry #Continental Freemasonry in North America
Set your budget and place your order

On the Amity page I am going to spend the run up to our cook off promoting the event and driving people to place the event on their calendar.


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## Bro. Vincent

Michael Neumann said:


> The Hiram Key is a pretty good book, I have read most of what Knight and Lomas have written. You should read Uriels Machine next https://kindle.amazon.com/work/urie...stonehenge-civilization/B000ATSY40/186204810X
> 
> A brief â€˜How Toâ€™ on FaceBook Ads.
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the cog (gear) in the top right corner of your screenâ€¦ click on it.
> Click â€˜Advertiseâ€™
> Click â€˜Create an Adâ€™
> Click â€˜Search by URLâ€™ and paste www.facebook.com/MasonicAmity
> Click â€˜Promote Page Postsâ€™
> Check the box â€˜Keep my ad up-to-date by automatically promoting my most recent post â€™
> In the box for â€˜Precise Interestsâ€™ paste these keywords ( you can always add more) #freemasonry  #United Grand Lodge of England  #Grand Lodge of Texas  #History of Freemasonry  #York Rite  #Scottish Rite  #Prince Hall Freemasonry #Continental Freemasonry in North America
> Set your budget and place your order
> 
> On the Amity page I am going to spend the run up to our cook off promoting the event and driving people to place the event on their calendar.



Thanks Bro. Neumann I will check that out. Thank you for that information. Didn't they have a second book? 


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## Michael Neumann

One better, here is their site http://www.knight-lomas.com/index2.html . Look to the left nav bar and you will see a listing, Bradford University hosts a great deal of information. I have many many other research sites but I will let you explore Knight's and Lomas's books first and dig through Bradford a bit.


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## dfreybur

Bro. Vincent said:


> Bro. Blake I will say this... I understand what you are getting at but, I will humbly say IMO, it is not correct when people of color around the globe are called racist.



The first racism I remember encountering in my life was anti-white racism by blacks in A-school when I new in the Navy.  I had no idea at the time how to react.  I know how to react now.  With that I sign out of this thread and I won't be reading it further.


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## Bro. Vincent

dfreybur said:


> The first racism I remember encountering in my life was anti-white racism by blacks in A-school when I new in the Navy.  I had no idea at the time how to react.  I know how to react now.  With that I sign out of this thread and I won't be reading it further.


There isn't enough space on this server for me to tell all of my stories and several of them to a point where my life had been threaten for doing absolutely nothing to anyone.The funny thing is this reaction happens alot. I am not surprised in the least...Good day sir.


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## inked_biker

I think this discussion has derailed to somewhere that I am completely confused. . 

PM Ace James
Yakima Compass Lodge 24 F&AM WA


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## bupton52

I think it might be time to close this thread. It has run out of steam.


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## James F Jackson

hello non mason speaking up here the bbq idea sounds great....

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## dew_time

Bro. Vincent... what do you call a person of color who is clearly being racist?

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## Bro. Vincent

This thread is officially dead. Please let's  move on...


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## inked_biker

Bro. Vincent said:


> This thread is officially dead. Please let's  move on...
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Where are we moving to. .. I will miss our conversation,  we were having a good time. .

PM Ace James
Yakima Compass Lodge 24 F&AM WA


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

I have decided to Close this topic as it is currently.

This thread is now Closed.


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