# Being Denied Membership at a Church



## HoldenMonty (Mar 22, 2018)

Hello Brothers,

So there was something interesting happened last night and I'm wondering if it has happened to any of you. So my family and I attend a baptist church that we have really loved going to and will still continue to go to. But anyway we talked to the pastor last night about joining the church because we have been attending for almost a year now and feel right at home going there. So we were everything was going good and then he mentioned how he noticed my Masonic ring and said that I can't be a member of the church if I am a Mason because of the theology of Masonry with saying higher up in Masonry that they believe that every god is the same. But anyway with keeping brotherly love as a priority. I'm wondering if any other brothers have ran into a similar issue where they have wanted to join a church and told that they aren't allowed to join a specific church or organization because they are a member.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 22, 2018)

I attend a Free Methodist Church and was a member before I joined the Craft. The Free Methodist Church  is not on good terms with Freemasonry or so I hear. However, my pastor does not have a problem with it.


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## coachn (Mar 22, 2018)

HoldenMonty said:


> ...* can't be a member of the church* if I am a Mason *because *of* the theology of Masonry* with saying higher up in Masonry that *they believe that every god is the same*. ...


Time to move on Bro.

You have a biased, hypocritical and assuming pastor who is an anti-freemason.  He was okay with taking your donation dollars but waited till you were hooked on the church to drop the "we don't accept your kind" bomb on ya.  Talk about twisted thinking.

You could make a futile attempt to "enlighten" him, but you'll likely just get him more entrenched and further biased.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 22, 2018)

coachn said:


> Time to move on Bro.
> 
> You have a biased, hypocritical and assuming pastor who is an anti-freemason. He was okay with taking your donation dollars but waited till you were hooked on the church to drop the "we don't accept your kind" bomb on ya. Talk about twisted thinking.
> 
> You could make a futile attempt to "enlighten" him, but you'll likely just get him more entrenched and further biased.


Very good point.


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## dfreybur (Mar 22, 2018)

Play the song "These boots are made for walking" as you leave.  Say "my wallet too".

We teach morality so objecting to us is a character flaw.  I pray for his moral reformation.

There's bound to be a church just as nice a few blocks down the street.  Because the tithe is one part in ten the expression a dime a dozen doesn't work, but it's the same idea with different numbers.


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## Glen Cook (Mar 22, 2018)

I’m sorry you are going through this, and perhaps more so for your wife. 

There are repercussions amongst some Lutherans and some Catholic parishes. 

You don’t state which genus of Baptist this was, but there are surely others with the same strain of theology (noting S Baptist churches will split over theories of Christology).

Frankly, I would look for Baptist churches attended by other Masons.


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## Keith C (Mar 23, 2018)

All I can add is that you, as a Freemason, know the morality of the Fraternity and that it has no "Theology."  Gathering together with any good man who believes in a Supreme Being does not imply that we all endorse each others beliefs, only that we accept them On the Level _as men._  Any church who excludes you because you are a Freemason isn't worth associating with, in my opinion.

I would run, not walk, from that Congregation and get to "Church Shopping."  I would also ask about any congregation's stand on Freemasonry before getting very involved.

I will add that while we do not discuss religion within the lodge, the opposite is not necessarily true.  I came to be a Mason by noticing a Masonic tie worn by a fellow Elder in my church. The whole "2B1 ASK1" thing worked out well for me!


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## coachn (Mar 23, 2018)

Keith C said:


> ...  I would also ask about any congregation's stand on Freemasonry before getting very involved...


BINGO!


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## Rifleman1776 (Mar 23, 2018)

Many churches are very much 'anti-Masonic'. I have tried to discuss this with leaders of several of these but met closed minds. To them there is no acceptance. Roman Catholics have been on and off again about Free Masonry. Most Lutheran synods, including my own, do not accept Free Masonry but have to restrictions against membership or activity that I know of. Others are highly restrictive.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 23, 2018)

Keith C said:


> Any church who excludes you because you are a Freemason isn't worth associating with, in my opinion.
> 
> I would run, not walk, from that Congregation and get to "Church Shopping." I would also ask about any congregation's stand on Freemasonry before getting very involved.


Absolutely!


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## Symthrell (Mar 23, 2018)

I just can't fathom that! I grew up in a Methodist church and remember seeing many of the men with Masonic tie tacs or rings. I also remember a good many Shriner lapel pins. My dad was one of them and he was on the board of the church and signed one of the property bonds that helped pay for the church being built. The entire subject to me seems so off base. Most all the masons I have known in my life were true Christian men.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 23, 2018)

Symthrell said:


> I just can't fathom that!





Symthrell said:


> The entire subject to me seems so off base. Most all the masons I have known in my life were true Christian men.


I agree. My pastor is o.k. with it but if he leaves and the new pastor gives me any grief about Masonry I would simply find a church where I am welcome.


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## frehm (Mar 23, 2018)

It's so sad to hear stories like this. Unfortunately it is true that quite some churches are anti-masonry (including, as far as I know, the whole Catholic church).

Here in Sweden, even though the whole Swedish Order of Freemason is 100 % Christian, you wouldn't be able to join some churches. Especially along the free churches (like pentacostal churches) there is a big oppostion towards the Freemasonry.

I personally struggle a bit with a similar question right now. Since I'm not really satisfied with the Church of Sweden (which I was born into and in which I have been engaged for more than 10 years), I'm looking for a Christian parish/community where I feel at home.  
On top of many other "criterias" I have, I also have to make sure they won't dislike membership in the Freemasons or other fraternal orders.


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## Matt L (Mar 23, 2018)

Being raised Roman Catholic it was a difficult decision for me.  A dear friend from High School, Frank is a Roman Catholic Priest and holds the title of Monsignor.  At one time I had actually thought of attending Seminary and receiving the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
 Frank said to me "Matt we're Catholic and I know you're a good man, but you know the church's stance on Freemasonry. Remember, all you need to do is ask for forgiveness". 
I attend a non denominal Christian Church now.  My lodge is a mix of Methodists, Southern Baptists and Church of Christ, with a couple of us wayward Catholics.  
You'll find a place that will welcome you with open arms.


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## Elexir (Mar 24, 2018)

frehm said:


> It's so sad to hear stories like this. Unfortunately it is true that quite some churches are anti-masonry (including, as far as I know, the whole Catholic church)



Actully the nordic bishops are sort of open to the Swedish rite just becuse of the fact we are christian only. Of course they wouldnt admit it openly but they dont have a problem with us.


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## jermy Bell (Mar 24, 2018)

Symthrell said:


> I just can't fathom that! I grew up in a Methodist church and remember seeing many of the men with Masonic tie tacs or rings. I also remember a good many Shriner lapel pins. My dad was one of them and he was on the board of the church and signed one of the property bonds that helped pay for the church being built. The entire subject to me seems so off base. Most all the masons I have known in my life were true Christian men.


If you ask the average person, they have no clue absolutely no clue that you have to be a mason in order to be a Shriner.  All they see is Shriner's help children,  and have parades, and a circuses. Masons, are evil, and want to take over the world.


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## Rifleman1776 (Mar 24, 2018)

"you have to be a mason in order to be a Shriner"
No longer universally true. One can be a Shriner in Arkansas without being a MM. I understand other states are considering making the change also.


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## flameburns623 (Mar 25, 2018)

There was an internal debate within the Southern Baptist Convention back in the 1990's over Freemasonry. This was after the "hardliners" had taken power within the SBC and more moderate congregations had been forced out over "liberal theology". 

I believe the discussion took place over a few years and was rather heated and divisive. There were  (and are) congregations in the SBC with prominent members simultaneously very active in Freemasonry.  There are also congregations which exclude Freemasons from holding any position in that congregation, or even exclude them from membershio.

The decision of the SBC was that while membership in a Lodge "is not a salvation issue", certain aspects of Masonic philosophy were of grave concern and members of an SBC church should consider seriously whether they should be members of a Masonic Lodge.  Congregations were permitted to maintain whatever policy they chose to concerning Lodge membership. 

It's been a few years, but I followed the discussion at that time because I had close family member who were both members of an SBC congregation,  and active at all levels in Freemasonry. I can tell the OP that if the Baptist church they were ill-used at is a Southern Baptist church, and if they prefer that denominations--chances are excellent that they will find at least one SBC congregation which is accepting of Freemasonry.


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## Glen Cook (Mar 25, 2018)

https://www.namb.net/apologetics/freemasonry-overview


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## MarkR (Mar 25, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Most Lutheran synods, including my own, do not accept Free Masonry but have to restrictions against membership or activity that I know of. Others are highly restrictive.


I once had a discussion about Masonry with a pastor from the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS.)  I gave him a tour of the Masonic Temple, and answered his questions.  What he told me was that he didn't think Masons were bad men or Masonry was a bad thing.  It was just the stand of WELS that their members could not "fellowship" outside of the church, and since we have prayers and read Bible verses as part of our meetings, that was considered "fellowship."


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## frehm (Mar 25, 2018)

Elexir said:


> Actully the nordic bishops are sort of open to the Swedish rite just becuse of the fact we are christian only. Of course they wouldnt admit it openly but they dont have a problem with us.



How do you know this? Well, OCD Anders Arborelius seems to be a nice, non-judgmental person. But still... they might not have a problem with us, but  I guess it still wouldn't be possible to be a member of the catholic church and still remain a freemason.


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## HoldenMonty (Mar 26, 2018)

Well some halfway good news. After I sent an e-mail to the pastor telling him that I will not be leaving Freemasonry in order to join their church and told him how Freemasonry doesn't have specific theology but is accepting of all faiths just like the U.S. military is and a few other points and asked if my wife would be able to still join the church since it's mainly her that wants to join the church so she is able to be a teacher with the kids. To me personally if you have accepted Christ and have faith in him then you are apart of the overall biblical meaning of the word Church as in the body of Christ and having membership at a specific building seems silly to me.


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## CLewey44 (Mar 26, 2018)

HoldenMonty said:


> Hello Brothers,
> 
> So there was something interesting happened last night and I'm wondering if it has happened to any of you. So my family and I attend a baptist church that we have really loved going to and will still continue to go to. But anyway we talked to the pastor last night about joining the church because we have been attending for almost a year now and feel right at home going there. So we were everything was going good and then he mentioned how he noticed my Masonic ring and said that I can't be a member of the church if I am a Mason because of the theology of Masonry with saying higher up in Masonry that they believe that every god is the same. But anyway with keeping brotherly love as a priority. I'm wondering if any other brothers have ran into a similar issue where they have wanted to join a church and told that they aren't allowed to join a specific church or organization because they are a member.



I noticed he mentioned the theology of Masonry. That alone tells me he doesn't know about Freemasonry. He also said that 'high up' Masons believe all gods are equal. Again, makes no sense. I don't think XYZ's God is on the same level as my God but I do respect and accept others' religious beliefs completely. Somehow acceptance, tolerance etc has become intertwined with equal or the same. It's almost militant when one religion thinks so down on others that they don't even want you to be associated with people from other religions. I wouldn't want to go to that church anyways, you may have better luck else where.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 26, 2018)

CLewey44 said:


> It's almost militant when one religion thinks so down on others that they don't even want you to be associated with people from other religions. I wouldn't want to go to that church anyways, you may have better luck else where.


Agreed!


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## coachn (Mar 26, 2018)

CLewey44 said:


> ... It's almost militant ...


ALMOST?!?!?!


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## jermy Bell (Mar 26, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> "you have to be a mason in order to be a Shriner"
> No longer universally true. One can be a Shriner in Arkansas without being a MM. I understand other states are considering making the change also.


That may be. But it' getting where no one wants anything to do with Arkansas.  Or so I keep reading.


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## Thomas Stright (Mar 26, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> "you have to be a mason in order to be a Shriner"
> No longer universally true. One can be a Shriner in Arkansas without being a MM. I understand other states are considering making the change also.



I'm guessing to bring in more members?


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## Bill Lins (Mar 26, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> "you have to be a mason in order to be a Shriner"
> No longer universally true. One can be a Shriner in Arkansas without being a MM. I understand other states are considering making the change also.


Also could be to get out from under the thumb of a Grand Lodge.


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## goomba (Mar 26, 2018)

I had a pastor, while not nearly on the level of yours, was confused about the Craft.  Luckily for me I studied Biblical and Theological studies at a major Baptist university and was able to convince him there was nothing wrong with Freemasonry.  With that being said I will not go out of my way to convince anyone that we are good if they are closed minded.  That we are nothing but a force of good in the world is obvious to anyone with common sense.  I believe the EA charge when it says "neither are you to suffer your zeal for the institution to lead you into arguments with those who, through ignorance, may ridicule it."


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## MarkR (Mar 27, 2018)

Thomas Stright said:


> I'm guessing to bring in more members?


No, to replace the Masons who have been told by the Grand Lodge of Arkansas that they cannot continue their membership in the Shrine.  Some have tried to demit to lodges in surrounding states so they can continue being both Masons and Shriners, but Arkansas will not give them letters of good standing.  It's a serious mess.


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## coachn (Mar 27, 2018)

MarkR said:


> No, to replace the Masons who have been told by the Grand Lodge of Arkansas that they cannot continue their membership in the Shrine.  Some have tried to demit to lodges in surrounding states so they can continue being both Masons and Shriners, but Arkansas will not give them letters of good standing.  It's a serious mess.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 27, 2018)

goomba said:


> With that being said I will not go out of my way to convince anyone that we are good if they are closed minded.


I agree. I am not going to try to prove to a pastor that I am "good enough" to attend his church. If I'm welcome there, fine. If not I'll simply find one where I am welcome.


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## HoldenMonty (Mar 27, 2018)

Thank you brothers, I asked the same question to other brothers at the Lodge I go to at our practice last night and they all had similar ideas of you brothers and mentioned a few brothers that demited in order to become members of a church in the community. It also reminds me of part of the 1st degree charge in PA where it says He is not to neglect his own necessary avocations for the sake of Freemasonry, or to involve himself in quarrels with those who through ignorance may speak evilly or despitefully of it. So to me that is saying don't waste your breath trying to argue with those closed minded people about Freemasonry.


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## dfreybur (Mar 27, 2018)

CLewey44 said:


> Somehow acceptance, tolerance etc has become intertwined with equal or the same.



Tolerance is not acceptance of the other's opinions or beliefs.  Tolerance is accepting the other as a person.
Tolerance is not agreeing with the other.  Tolerance is working together for common causes.
And so on down a long line of potential descriptions.

Immature folks confuse tolerance the way immature folks confuse forgiveness.  Forgiveness is not forgetness.

On AR not issuing statements of good standing - Send a letter of resignation, disavow and go through your degrees in the other state.  I get that it's not the fault of the lodges but rather of the jurisdiction.  My response to such a jurisdiction would be a rude gesture.  They don't get to stop me from leaving.


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## goomba (Mar 27, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> Tolerance is not acceptance of the other's opinions or beliefs.  Tolerance is accepting the other as a person.
> Tolerance is not agreeing with the other.  Tolerance is working together for common causes.
> And so on down a long line of potential descriptions.
> 
> ...


The other grand lodges should step up and help correct this problem. Issuing an edict saying they will accept a Mason's word they wish to demit from Arkansas. We shouldn't stand by as Freemasons are held captive. 

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## coachn (Mar 27, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> Tolerance is not acceptance of the other's opinions or beliefs.  Tolerance is accepting the other as a person.
> Tolerance is not agreeing with the other.  Tolerance is working together for common causes.
> And so on down a long line of potential descriptions....


Tolerance is not responding or reacting "negatively or violently" toward any perceived source of irritation or discomfort.

Tolerance is responding and reacting "positively and non-violently" toward any perceived source of irritation or discomfort.


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## Warrior1256 (Mar 27, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> Tolerance is not acceptance of the other's opinions or beliefs. Tolerance is accepting the other as a person.
> Tolerance is not agreeing with the other. Tolerance is working together for common causes.
> And so on down a long line of potential descriptions.





coachn said:


> Tolerance is not responding or reacting "negatively or violently" toward any perceived source of irritation or discomfort.
> 
> Tolerance is responding and reacting "positively and non-violently" toward any perceived source of irritation or discomfort.


I agree with all the above.


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## Rifleman1776 (Mar 31, 2018)

Bill Lins said:


> Also could be to get out from under the thumb of a Grand Lodge.


Jeremy, Thomas and Bill
The change came from the split in Arkansas between Grand Lodge and Shrine. Long, sad story with many versions. I demited out of the Arkansas lodge where I was raised and joined a lodge in Missouri (only about 30 miles away). Many other Arkansas MMs have fled the state to lodges in surrounding states. The animus between Grand Lodge and Shrine was so serious this change had to be made so Shriners could remain MMs and to bring in new members to the Shrine. This is a very condensed version of the entire mess. BTW, I read here that Oklahoma Grand Lodge has withdrawn recognition of Arkansas masonry.


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## Glen Cook (Mar 31, 2018)

Rifleman1776 said:


> Jeremy, Thomas and Bill
> The change came from the split in Arkansas between Grand Lodge and Shrine. Long, sad story with many versions. I demited out of the Arkansas lodge where I was raised and joined a lodge in Missouri (only about 30 miles away). Many other Arkansas MMs have fled the state to lodges in surrounding states. The animus between Grand Lodge and Shrine was so serious this change had to be made so Shriners could remain MMs and to bring in new members to the Shrine. This is a very condensed version of the entire mess. BTW, I read here that Oklahoma Grand Lodge has withdrawn recognition of Arkansas masonry.



 The instant action has nothing to do with the shrine. 

The Oklahoma decision was reversed. 

 We are informed the KS decision is largely based on the original OK reasoning, with a note of refusing to admit KS visitors  because they are in Amity with PHA.


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## okielabrat (Jul 30, 2018)

Sad to hear about that. At our church (a Southern Baptist one, I may add), we have seven men who are Masons, and two of them are deacons. One is an usher, while two more play in our church's Music Ministry team. Plus, we have several OES ladies (including the Worthy Matron of our local Chapter). I have never heard anything discouraging from our pastor or other members of the congregation. 

I took a moment to peruse some of the websites and YouTube videos that disparage our fraternity, and I'm not sure whether to laugh or just shake my head in disbelief. The one about taking over the world is a hoot- we can't even decide half the time on what to serve at high twelve time, much less plot world domination (and no, I don't believe a word of the drivel I read. If I want to see what Masonry is all about, I can look no farther than my Lodge brethren and those brethren of the Lodges I have been privileged to attend (including the one who conducted my raising ceremony). 

I sincerely hope and pray you will find a church you are made to feel comfortable in, and that you will not turn away from Christianity due to the opinion of one misguided person.


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## Warrior1256 (Jul 31, 2018)

okielabrat said:


> I have never heard anything discouraging from our pastor or other members of the congregation.


Same here. As I have previously stated Free Methodists (my church) is at odds with Masonry but the pastor at my particular church is O.K. with me being a member.


okielabrat said:


> I took a moment to peruse some of the websites and YouTube videos that disparage our fraternity, and I'm not sure whether to laugh or just shake my head in disbelief. The one about taking over the world is a hoot- we can't even decide half the time on what to serve at high twelve time, much less plot world domination


Lol...I look up these sites for the entertainment value!


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## rpbrown (Jul 31, 2018)

It is sad that members of a church or religion are so ill-informed, but a pastor should perform due diligence before condemning any one or anything. To me this is not Christ like. 
A few years ago, our church had a few people leave because they didn't want to be involved in a church run by anti-Christs (Masons). 2 board members, 1 associate pastor, and at least 15 members were masons, as well as the senior pastors son being the WM of our lodge at the time. Even though the senior pastor tried to explain that we were not "devil worshipers" or anti Christs" it fell on deaf ears. We lost maybe 10 members because of it. 
The next week the message was on God pruning his flock and our church has grown since then. 
Now, had our pastor gone the other way and condemned the Masons, I wouldn't be there today. 
Those that left, well they are still church hopping because they cant find one that meets their every whim and way of thinking.


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## TexasAggieOfc1273 (Jul 31, 2018)

My $0.02:

I’m a member of a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, and our national leadership is officially hostile towards Masonic membership. I’ve read their reasons, I get where they’re coming from, but I don’t agree with it. I’ve taken the assurance I received from the WM to heart, and have yet to find anything in Masonry that conflicts with my belief in God. There are several things I think the LCMS gets wrong, but of the several denominations I’ve looked at over the years (I was Southern Baptist as a child, and when my parents found religion, it was as Nazarenes (dad) and Methodists (mom) and my grandparents were Catholic and Adventist) the LCMS is the closest to getting it “right” in my opinion. 

I don’t advertise my Lodge membership in Nebraska like I did in Texas. It is partly because I’ve yet to affiliate with a Lodge here and partly because while the Lodge was considered a large part of the community in Texas, it’s much quieter here, I presume because of the fact that Lincoln’s two largest religions are Catholic and Missouri Lutherans. In that vein, I don’t advertise, my pastor doesn’t need to know, and I go about my life. 

I certainly understand brothers that would change churches based on their unwelcoming stance towards the Craft, but it’s not a decision I would make at this time. If it ever became an issue, I know there are several other LCMS congregations that are a little more “progressive” and depart from official Synodical direction on some issues where I could still worship in my preferred style while maintaining my Lodge membership. 


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Elexir (Jul 31, 2018)

rpbrown said:


> It is sad that members of a church or religion are so ill-informed, but a pastor should perform due diligence before condemning any one or anything. To me this is not Christ like.
> A few years ago, our church had a few people leave because they didn't want to be involved in a church run by anti-Christs (Masons). 2 board members, 1 associate pastor, and at least 15 members were masons, as well as the senior pastors son being the WM of our lodge at the time. Even though the senior pastor tried to explain that we were not "devil worshipers" or anti Christs" it fell on deaf ears. We lost maybe 10 members because of it.
> The next week the message was on God pruning his flock and our church has grown since then.
> Now, had our pastor gone the other way and condemned the Masons, I wouldn't be there today.
> Those that left, well they are still church hopping because they cant find one that meets their every whim and way of thinking.



Actully they use due dilligence as they in many cases also listens to their churchs stand on diffrent things and freemasonry is one of them.


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## Warrior1256 (Jul 31, 2018)

rpbrown said:


> It is sad that members of a church or religion are so ill-informed, but a pastor should perform due diligence before condemning any one or anything. To me this is not Christ like.
> A few years ago, our church had a few people leave because they didn't want to be involved in a church run by anti-Christs (Masons). 2 board members, 1 associate pastor, and at least 15 members were masons, as well as the senior pastors son being the WM of our lodge at the time. Even though the senior pastor tried to explain that we were not "devil worshipers" or anti Christs" it fell on deaf ears. We lost maybe 10 members because of it.
> The next week the message was on God pruning his flock and our church has grown since then.
> Now, had our pastor gone the other way and condemned the Masons, I wouldn't be there today.
> Those that left, well they are still church hopping because they cant find one that meets their every whim and way of thinking.


If I was ever told that I had to quit Freemasonry or leave the church this would not even be a close call. I would leave the church and find another where I was welcome.


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## Center (Aug 2, 2018)

my 2 cents as well.
Church should be inspired by the gospels and not by encyclicals.

Freemasonry is not a religion, if he denies brotherly love from somebody that tries to be a better man,  should at least  have a deeper speech with you to confront himself with modesty and his possible lack of understanding of the papal infallibility principles


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## Elexir (Aug 2, 2018)

Center said:


> my 2 cents as well.
> Church should be inspired by the gospels and not by encyclicals.
> 
> Freemasonry is not a religion, if he denies brotherly love from somebody that tries to be a better man,  should at least  have a deeper speech with you to confront himself with modesty and his possible lack of understanding of the papal infallibility principles



What does the pope has to with Lutherans, jehovas witnesses etc?
Its not just RCC that is against freemasonry.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 2, 2018)

Elexir said:


> Its not just RCC that is against freemasonry.


Oh, that's for sure!


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## Elexir (Aug 2, 2018)

Center said:


> my 2 cents as well.
> Church should be inspired by the gospels and not by encyclicals.
> 
> Freemasonry is not a religion, if he denies brotherly love from somebody that tries to be a better man,  should at least  have a deeper speech with you to confront himself with modesty and his possible lack of understanding of the papal infallibility principles



Lets say my local priest objects to me being a freemason, he/she dont even recognise the principle of the papal infallibility since its an Evangelical Lutheran church so the pope is not important.


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## Center (Aug 2, 2018)

Elexir said:


> What does the pope has to with Lutherans, jehovas witnesses etc?
> Its not just RCC that is against freemasonry.


right, just an example, where I live there are only Protestant and Catholic. Christianity is a huge world. Lately I am preferring the reading of the Greek orthodox tradition. The RCC is important to being pointed out, because of the early Christians philosophies is the one that had more success.  The one that was against the Cathars, the Manichean, the Gnostics, the one that was at the basis of the middle age scholastic philosophy.
the not fallibility of the pope is important, because of the relationship with the encyclics and declarations. Just to mention the _*Quaesitum est *http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...aith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html_


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## Center (Aug 2, 2018)

Elexir said:


> Lets say my local priest objects to me being a freemason, he/she dont even recognise the principle of the papal infallibility since its an Evangelical Lutheran church so the pope is not important.


OK, sure thing. Lutheranism wanted to reform catholicism. The point is that personally I do not sympathize with a bible centric vision, but is my limit. But please if is possible I would not love to go in a theological discussions, or history of the bible's Luther's canon, is paradoxically against the same Lutheran principle of faith somehow.


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## Elexir (Aug 2, 2018)

Center said:


> right, just an example, where I live there are only Protestant and Catholic. Christianity is a huge world. Lately I am preferring the reading of the Greek orthodox tradition. The RCC is important to being pointed out, because of the early Christians philosophies is the one that had more success.  The one that was against the Cathars, the Manichean, the Gnostics, the one that was at the basis of the middle age scholastic philosophy.
> the not fallibility of the pope is important, because of the relationship with the encyclics and declarations. Just to mention the _*Quaesitum est *http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...aith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html_



As an example its actully good that you mention the greek-orthodox church as they are against freemasonry. Was present at ones initiation and he was nervous about the church finding out. Funny enough the bishops of the RCC in Scandinavia looks the other way with the chatolics that join the swedish rite.


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## Elexir (Aug 2, 2018)

Center said:


> OK, sure thing. Lutheranism wanted to reform catholicism. The point is that personally I do not sympathize with a bible centric vision, but is my limit. But please if is possible I would not love to go in a theological discussions, or history of the bible's Luther's canon, is paradoxically against the same Lutheran principle of faith somehow.



I never dicuss politics or deep points regarding theology in masonic forums anyway.


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## dfreybur (Aug 3, 2018)

Elexir said:


> Lets say my local priest objects to me being a freemason, he/she dont even recognise the principle of the papal infallibility since its an Evangelical Lutheran church so the pope is not important.



Each of us gets to decide on our own how much power and authority we will grant either human clergy or human religion in our lives.  God comes before lodge.  That's not the same as saying human clergy or human religion come before lodge.  Unless you decide for yourself that you chose to give human clergy or human religion that much power over you.  Your conscience; your decision.

I can say how I would react, but I'm not you.  If I say how I would react, how close does that come to discussing sectarian religion?  We're not a tiled space so I'm tempted to make a sales pitch for my choice.  But how much does that push against my previous statement - Your conscience; your decision.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 3, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> God comes before lodge. That's not the same as saying human clergy or human religion come before lodge.


I like this! Well said Brother!


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## Elexir (Aug 3, 2018)

dfreybur said:


> Each of us gets to decide on our own how much power and authority we will grant either human clergy or human religion in our lives.  God comes before lodge.  That's not the same as saying human clergy or human religion come before lodge.  Unless you decide for yourself that you chose to give human clergy or human religion that much power over you.  Your conscience; your decision.
> 
> I can say how I would react, but I'm not you.  If I say how I would react, how close does that come to discussing sectarian religion?  We're not a tiled space so I'm tempted to make a sales pitch for my choice.  But how much does that push against my previous statement - Your conscience; your decision.



You turn it into something its not, look in the context wich I wrote it.
I know I dont have problems with my church regarding as they have officialy done an investigation of the rituals and declared the swedish rite to be alright for its members and priests to belong to.
Making your sales pitch would just be a waste of time as 1) Im not american so our church culture might be a bit diffrent. 2) I went through the process of studying a lot about the churches that exist in my area and 3) I am most in tune with the theology and its ideals.


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## Bloke (Aug 4, 2018)

HoldenMonty said:


> Hello Brothers,
> 
> So there was something interesting happened last night and I'm wondering if it has happened to any of you. So my family and I attend a baptist church that we have really loved going to and will still continue to go to. But anyway we talked to the pastor last night about joining the church because we have been attending for almost a year now and feel right at home going there. So we were everything was going good and then he mentioned how he noticed my Masonic ring and said that I can't be a member of the church if I am a Mason because of the theology of Masonry with saying higher up in Masonry that they believe that every god is the same. But anyway with keeping brotherly love as a priority. I'm wondering if any other brothers have ran into a similar issue where they have wanted to join a church and told that they aren't allowed to join a specific church or organization because they are a member.



Sorry to hear you have experienced this discrimination Brother.


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## EddieGee (Aug 11, 2018)

I am very interested in this thread as I am a committed Christian and active Freemason.

Those "Christians" who hate Masonry usually have two major objections:

1. Because Masonry accepts men of all faiths, it is "indifferentist," i.e. it teaches that all religions are equally good and it doesn't matter which one you espouse. (Not true of course. Masonry does not say that all belief systems are true, which would be absurd. Rather, it refrains from passing judgment on their relative merits, leaving that to the individual Brother. It does require belief in a Supreme Being, and mutual respect and tolerance among those with different beliefs about Him.)

2. "Masonic theology" is incompatible with Christian theology (or the "Masonic God" is not the Christian God).

Of course there is a huge non sequitur in all of this: How can Masonry have #2 - its own theology - which would indeed make it a religion unto itself, and still be #1, an interfaith brotherhood? Wouldn't it have to force Christians, Jews, Muslims, and others to renounce their respective faiths and convert to the worship of the "Masonic God" as defined by "Masonic theology"? Then religious tolerance, which indeed is a Masonic principle, would go out the window.

Beyond this, there seem to be zillions of sites on the Net that pretend to objectively examine the question "Can a Christian be a Mason?" (or a Mason be a Christian). This too is idiotic since there is a simple answer: there are already hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Christian Masons in the world.  They have even set up their own organizations, among them the York Rite and Swedish Rite. Asking whether a Christian can be a Mason is like asking whether a woman can be a fighter pilot: if you really want to know, don't sit at your computer and spew ignorant nonsense; rather, look around and see if they exist. Yes and yes. Case closed.

However - and this is the crux of the matter - the people who are trying to hound Masons out of the church can't be reasoned with. Logic didn't get them into their anti-Masonic hatred and it won't get them out. But that doesn't make them any less toxic; in fact, it makes them more so. I have not made my Masonic membership public knowledge at my church for fear that an anti-Mason might stir up animosity against me. I'm not sure if this is being diplomatic or just cowardly. I don't want to go to another church, I love the one I'm in and have good relationships there. I am sure most people, even those who don't like Masonry,  would see me as the individual I am rather than as a cartoon-character villain, but it only takes one person spreading hatred and suspicion to cause a lot of heartache.

In any event I am always interested in what others have experienced.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 12, 2018)

EddieGee said:


> However - and this is the crux of the matter - the people who are trying to hound Masons out of the church can't be reasoned with. Logic didn't get them into their anti-Masonic hatred and it won't get them out.


Absolutely right!


EddieGee said:


> it only takes one person spreading hatred and suspicion to cause a lot of heartache.


Sadly true.


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