# PHO vs PHA



## TravelLight91

What is the difference between PHO and PHA? I am hearing that PHO is considered bogus and not legit masonry? Could someone explain more please? 

Thanks,

Brother Caution.

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## Txmason

Prince Hall Masonry is (PHA) and there is also mainstream freemasonry but there is no PHO masonry that is bogus. 

Where do you live?  in what city? I'd be glad to help you find a lodge to visit and learn about masonry. Are you interested in becoming a mason? 


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## widows son

PHO is Prince Hall Origin.


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## Txmason

Oh what's that?


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## Frater Cliff Porter

PHA is recognized and mainstream.  PHO is not.


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## Txmason

Thank you bro. I learned something!


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## TravelLight91

Yes, this confirms it for me. I have found many brothers not even knowing what PHO is.


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## MarkR

PHO is also referred to as "National Compact."  Quite some time ago (mid 1800's IIRC,) some Prince Hall Lodges decided to have a national Grand Lodge.  They apparently thought all Prince Hall Lodges would go along, but they didn't.  So, it caused a schism.  PHO has a national Grand Lodge (http://www.mwnationalgrandlodge.org/), PHA is organized with state Grand Lodges only.  When "mainstream" state Grand Lodges started recognizing Prince Hall, they started recognizing PHA.  I also think there a lot more PHA Lodges and brothers than PHO.


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## towerbuilder7

Brother mark r is correct-----pha (prince hall affiliation) is the preminent style of masonry of the two.   We are considered regualr and recognized by the ugle here in texas, and pho (prince hall origin) is not..........i've heard rumors of "talks" of reconciliation between the two bodies, but none were verified.........bro jones


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## dfreybur

MarkR said:


> So, it caused a schism.



Bro Mark,

Regularity comes in several levels and forms.  It's a gray scale or floating point.  In comparison recognition is yes/no digital.  Being not recognized does *not* automatically mean being clandestine.  This description makes PHO sound regular in almost every way but a decision on how many levels of sovereignty there should be.  The divide between the Antients and Moderns was no larger than that and they unified into the UGLE in 1817.

Might PHO reconcile at some point?  In several countries there are both national and state GLs that get along and that could eventually happen in the US.  If they have a definite lineage it's possible.  If that's the only point of departure on regularity.


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## MarkR

dfreybur said:


> Bro Mark,
> 
> Regularity comes in several levels and forms.  It's a gray scale or floating point.  In comparison recognition is yes/no digital.  Being not recognized does *not* automatically mean being clandestine.  This description makes PHO sound regular in almost every way but a decision on how many levels of sovereignty there should be.  The divide between the Antients and Moderns was no larger than that and they unified into the UGLE in 1817.
> 
> Might PHO reconcile at some point?  In several countries there are both national and state GLs that get along and that could eventually happen in the US.  If they have a definite lineage it's possible.  If that's the only point of departure on regularity.


You're absolutely correct (except UGLE formed in 1813.)


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## bupton52

The PHO of yesterday is not the same one that operates today. The original was shut down and the one that operates now is doing so clandestinely. Everything from holding annual communication without quorum to self apoointed National Grand Masters. 

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## dfreybur

Bro Byron,

Thanks for addressing my "If that's their only point of departure from regularity".  Sounds like they have departed greatly from regularity at this point.  Some clandestine group riding the tails of a now defunct almost-regular group.


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## Cookboy4200

If they're not chartered I don't call them my Brother


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## lourocks

That's the way no charter no brother

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## tjmonty32

PHO was never shut down. Read Out of the Shadows and The National Grandl Lodge, the untold truth by PHA writer Alton Roundtree. PHO IS LEGIT.

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## bupton52

tjmonty32 said:


> PHO was never shut down. Read Out of the Shadows and The National Grandl Lodge, the untold truth by PHA writer Alton Roundtree. PHO IS LEGIT.
> 
> My Freemasonry HD




I beg to differ. The compact was abandoned.


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## tjmonty32

The compact has continued to meet since its formation in 1847, alist of its triennial sessions in listed on pages 787-788 in the book "Tha National Grand Lodge,The Untold Truth" by PHA writer Alton Roundtree

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## tjmonty32

Www.mwnationalgrandlodge.org

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## bupton52

Here is the cliff notes version: 

The National Grand Lodge (NGL) was meant to be like a COGM to stop clandestine freemasons and spread "negro" freemasonry. Once they started to try to exercise authority over GLs, those GLs started separating themselves (becoming independent like they are today) By the time the convention of 1878 came in Delaware, hardly anybody showed up. There wasn't enough representation to even open the session (quorum) Convention after that, same thing. GL's had pulled away and became independent, thus returning sovereignty to the State GL and not having a GM over state GMs like the NGL is set up. The NGL even started putting replacement GLs in some of the states where the existing regular PHGLs are today! The structure of the NGL/PHO is irregular. The fact that they continued to operate after dying is clandestine. Also the fact the National Grand Master (NGM) put out Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) that include goals to "Establish recognition with Modern Free Masons, Scottish Rite Masons and International Masons." ,which are known clandestine organizations, makes it even less likely that the NGL/PHO will ever be considered a regular organization or recognized by the rest of the masonic community.


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## bupton52

"Of late years, however, so many of the State Grand Lodges have repudiated the authority of the National Compact, that, at its last communication, held March , 1873, in Philadelphia, a vote to dissolve the body failed by the following insignificant vote, viz: Yeas-States 7: members, 42;proxies, 25; total 67. Nays-States ,8; members,48; proxies, 10; total, 58 Rhode Island not voting. This vote showed the existence of a widespread sentiment among even those colored Masons who adhered to the "Compact" that it was an abnormally, unmasonic body, whose existence should no longer be perpetuated; and the record shows that the Compact owes its life to the diligence of its few friends in securing proxies. Their zeal could not, however, prevent the adoption of resolutions virtually depriving the Compact of all its vaulted control of the State Grand Lodges, depriving the so-called National Grand Master of his executive powers, and putting an end to the voting of proxies; and the sadly demoralized institution closed to meet in Louisville, KY; on the first Monday in May 1874. In several of the States where State Grand Lodges existed which, worked "under the National Compact", subordinate lodges have repudiated the authority of such subordinate Grand Lodges and established Independent Grand Lodges; so that in several states there are two colored Grand Lodges one Independent, the other under the Compact." (MWPHGL of AR CCFC Report April 1873)


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## tjmonty32

Forgetcliffnotes, a direct quote " Many false starements havebeen made and perpetuated on the National Grand Lodge, especiall from 1878 to present. Will Prince Hall (A) Freemasonry acknowledge that intheir official records,their leaders spread and embellished untrue statements concerning the National Grand Lodge"?

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## tjmonty32

Another quote "Today the National Grand Lodge has state grand loges in 27 states, ther is no evidence that the National grand Lodge of today is any different than that of the National Grand Lodge of 1847-1878 in terms of its operation."

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## bupton52

tjmonty32 said:


> Another quote "Today the National Grand Lodge has state grand loges in 27 states, ther is no evidence that the National grand Lodge of today is any different than that of the National Grand Lodge of 1847-1878 in terms of its operation."
> 
> My Freemasonry HD



I hope your sole source for information isn't Roundtree's book!!


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## tjmonty32

I have plenty of sources, but using a PHA writer who calls NGL the mother of PH masonry in America is a striking point.  Gotta go work, talk later.

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## bupton52

"...Whereas, the M.W. Grand Master, having been present at the session of M.W.N.Grand Lodge, held in the city of Philadelphia, as the representative of this M. W. G. L, and having reported to us that, at that session, the M.W.N.G.L. had removed some of the objections held against that body, and by having amendments to the constitution of the M.W.N.G.L., declared the State Grand Lodges supreme:...." 

This was in 1873. How did they continue to exist and make it to 1878?


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## bupton52

tjmonty32 said:


> I have plenty of sources, but using a PHA writer who calls NGL the mother of PH masonry in America is a striking point.  Gotta go work, talk later.
> 
> My Freemasonry HD




Just be sure not to put all of your eggs in that basket. Many discussions have been had with Bro. Roundtree about the inaccuracies in that book. I would hope that a researcher would agree that GL proceedings hold a little bit more weight.


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## tjmonty32

The National Grand Lodge convention in Boston 1875, Triennial convention in Pittsburgh in 1877, Wilminton Delaware 1878. National  
Grand Master Richard Gleaves 1865 to 1877, thats how.  Book "History of the National Grand Lodge " by Matthew Brock.  And yes also supported by facts and documents in both of Alton Roundtree's books. But the best sources the Princa Hall Grand Lodge of Ohio sending correspondence dates 1877 to both NGL and State Rights calling for national convention in Wilminton Delaware in 1878. Really gotta go, will continue later if you like. I have plenty of sources. Have ablessed day.


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## mraymc4

Brothers & Non-Brothers, 
Joseph A. Walkes wrote a book named "A Prince Hall Masonic Quiz Book" that gives gives excellent insight on the National Compact or National Grand Lodge. Give it a look & become informed. 
 


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## bupton52

mraymc4 said:


> Brothers & Non-Brothers,
> Joseph A. Walkes wrote a book named "A Prince Hall Masonic Quiz Book" that gives gives excellent insight on the National Compact or National Grand Lodge. Give it a look & become informed. View attachment 3629
> 
> 
> My Freemasonry HD



Very good book. I own a copy. 

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## tjmonty32

I am quite familiar with Walkes as I also own a copy of his book. So please lize that Joseph A. Walkes Jr. stated in 2001 while attending a conference of Prince Hall Grand Masters, a correction to his own book. He admits that The national Grand Lodge never shut down in 1877, that the NGL met in 1877 and 1880 and that their meetings were carried in the Pittsburgh Commercial Gazzette and the the Every Evening (Wilmington Delaware newspaper), and in as previously mentions in the minutes of The Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Ohio that the NGL was not disbanded. So once again NGL has a PHA writer attempting to clear up thier own dogma and rhetoric.

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## tjmonty32

Another quick question, what does ther term "state rights" refer to. Also the name " Prince Hall Affilate ", ever ask what they were affilated to. To Prince Hall Original, henceforth PHO - PHA. It is not necessarily my intention to change a brothers mind, however I will convey the truth that Prince Hall Origin, National Compact, Free and Accepted Ancient York Masons, USA area alive and well. That we are the same PHO that created the National Compact in 1847, and thererby most of the black lodges in America durings a certain time. That we are the  descendents of African lodge 459 and thus decendents of Prince Hall.

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## perryel

NGL still exists. Got it.  PHO shares a legitimate Masonic history with PHA.  Got it.  At some point, there was a schism that placed the authority claimed by NGL beyond the bounds of regular Freemasonry.  Got it.  Therefore, despite its historical origins, the contemporary NGL is irregular.  

Someone please close this thread.


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## mraymc4

A very interesting article... Though Walkes is not the authority on Freemasonry, he is very informed. 

http://www.thephylaxis.org/walkes/gm_conf.php



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## BryanMaloney

I think that part of the problem is that some sort of strange version of "Once Regular, Always Regular" seems to be promulgated. Even if a body at one time was Regular, this in no way means that it has remained Regular to the present day. Likewise, lapsing of a body into irregularity does not retroactively turn previously-associated bodies irregular.


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## tjmonty32

Perryel, using your answer means that PHA is irregular. PLease become familiar with your own history. Many, many historians have declared PHA irregular,  clandestine at many points in history. So watch what logic you use againt other bodies as they apply to PHA as well. Be aware that it has only been 20 years that PHA was recognized by mainstream, prior to that mainstream had plenty of evicence that said PHA was bogus.

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## perryel

tjmonty32 said:


> Perryel, using your answer means that PHA is irregular. PLease become familiar with your own history. Many, many historians have declared PHA irregular,  clandestine at many points in history. So watch what logic you use againt other bodies as they apply to PHA as well. Be aware that it has only been 20 years that PHA was recognized by mainstream, prior to that mainstream had plenty of evicence that said PHA was bogus.
> 
> My Freemasonry HD




If you have issues with the irregularity of NGL, you should take them up with the proper Masonic authorities.  I certainly don't claim to hold the right to sit in judgement on matters such as these; but, simply state the facts as they exist.  Perhaps you should express your concerns to the respective Grand Masters of your jurisdiction, or extend the same appeal to UGLE.  I'll personally champion your efforts to heal the entire system.

Five Points of Fellowship...
..




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## tjmonty32

I agree, five points.

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## Mindovermatter Ace

PHO is NOT of the Prince Hall Origin that they claim. They are not the same as the National Grand Lodge of old. The schism occurred because of the NGL expelling GMs of PH GLs, specifically the GM of OH, who at that time, had the largest PH GL in America. The National Grand Lodge was founded by Prince Hall Grand Masters of the first 4 PHA GLs. Namely the GL of PA (PH) & GLoOH (PH) were key players. James Berry who was DGM of the PA GL at the time, and an advocate of the NGL along with John Parsons who was a member of the PH GL of OH, I think he was GM at the time, went about the country making masons. They ended up here in Louisiana. There was a local schism and the PH GL split. James Berry was expelled. Upon his expulsion from the Prince Hall Grand Lodge, he formed a compact GL in Louisiana and sat as its first GM. At this point in history the Compact GL was larger than the PH GL, being that James Berry was very influential in Prince Hall masonry and many brothers following him to the new Compact GL. Nonetheless, the two GLs merged when a conference was held and it was voted by both sides to dissolve the NGL never to return. The merger in my state formed the now Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Louisiana. My point in telling a bit about my GL's history, is to show that the NGL died many years ago, although they did not cease to working. The modern PHO is not that of the NGL of old. They are not the same, as you can see with my GL and many other GLs in America that are PHA. Majority of PHA GLs are mergers of the 2. So PHO has no lineage to Prince Hall masonry, nor masonry at all for that matter. Which is why they are not a recognized body anywhere in the world outside of themselves. Not only are they not recognized, but they are not regular in origin either.


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## Keith D. McKeever Jr.

towerbuilder7 said:


> Brother mark r is correct-----pha (prince hall affiliation) is the preminent style of masonry of the two.   We are considered regualr and recognized by the ugle here in texas, and pho (prince hall origin) is not..........i've heard rumors of "talks" of reconciliation between the two bodies, but none were verified.........bro jones


I have two uncles who is PHO as I am PHA like my father and grandfather.  One of these uncles who use to overlook the East coast region was trying to explain to me why there was so much confusion between the two. Reading this threads helps me a great deal.


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## Vagabond357

tjmonty32 said:


> PHO was never shut down. Read Out of the Shadows and The National Grandl Lodge, the untold truth by PHA writer Alton Roundtree. PHO IS LEGIT.
> 
> My Freemasonry HD


Because it's in a book that someone wrote its true??hmm that's like saying they don't put nothing on the internet unless it's true.... in my twenty years of being a PHA mason I have read several papers that it was dissolved and abandoned like the brother stayed before but I also believed the 200 year old story about the formation of African lodge#1 but now that I am reading LANDMARKS OF OUR FATHERS which is backed up with documents it's hard to take anyone's word SMIB


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## Vagabond357

http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/phglvsnglpa.php


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## acjohnson53

If I don't see a Charter, I'm out....No questions asked...


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## Mindovermatter Ace

PHO developed out of the defunct NGL. Also not all of their "Lodges" share or have history with PHA. 


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## Mindovermatter Ace

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## Mindovermatter Ace

Vagabond357 said:


> Because it's in a book that someone wrote its true??hmm that's like saying they don't put nothing on the internet unless it's true.... in my twenty years of being a PHA mason I have read several papers that it was dissolved and abandoned like the brother stayed before but I also believed the 200 year old story about the formation of African lodge#1 but now that I am reading LANDMARKS OF OUR FATHERS which is backed up with documents it's hard to take anyone's word SMIB








It's not a game. The shutdown of the NGL was real. There is also a court case that proves the NGL went dormant for 12 years, whereas they themselves could not prove to the court a continuous existence.



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## Glen Cook

acjohnson53 said:


> If I don't see a Charter, I'm out....No questions asked...


Well, I understand your point, but you won't see the charter in my Utah lodge.  It's sealed up in a tube.


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## acjohnson53

Same with my Lodge it's sealed in a tube, and I look for it every time we fellowship....


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## dfreybur

acjohnson53 said:


> Same with my Lodge it's sealed in a tube, and I look for it every time we fellowship....



It is very common to have a photocopy in a frame on the wall.  I look for those.


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## tldubb

In order for our lodges to open for any type of business our charter has to be displayed. No Charter displayed, No lodge meeting/communications.


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## Bill Lins

tldubb said:


> In order for our lodges to open for any type of business our charter has to be displayed. No Charter displayed, No lodge meeting/communications.


Likewise under GLoTX.


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## Brother JC

tldubb said:


> In order for our lodges to open for any type of business our charter has to be displayed. No Charter displayed, No lodge meeting/communications.


Same in mine.
Interesting sidebar; our lodge meets in one of two lodges in the area, not possessing a building of our own. This means there are always two Charters on display. At the last Stated I was a little surprised when I noticed a third Charter hanging on the wall... seems one of the groups that rent the space forgot something.


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## Thomas Stright

tldubb said:


> In order for our lodges to open for any type of business our charter has to be displayed. No Charter displayed, No lodge meeting/communications.



This, it has to be displayed in the lodge room. No exceptions. 


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## Warrior1256

tldubb said:


> In order for our lodges to open for any type of business our charter has to be displayed. No Charter displayed, No lodge meeting/communications.


Same here in Kentucky. Charter HAS to be displayed at each and every meeting.


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## tldubb

Brother JC said:


> Same in mine.
> Interesting sidebar; our lodge meets in one of two lodges in the area, not possessing a building of our own. This means there are always two Charters on display. At the last Stated I was a little surprised when I noticed a third Charter hanging on the wall... seems one of the groups that rent the space forgot something.



Bro. JC , it's my understanding that co-masonry is basically coed right?


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## Brother JC

That is my understanding as well.


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## Ripcord22A

Brother JC said:


> That is my understanding as well.


And the GL of CA is ok with the lodge that owns that building renting to a clandestine group?

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## Ripcord22A

Better question the breathren of that lodge are ok with it?  I wouldnt be i dont care how much they were willing to pay

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## bupton52

Ripcord22A said:


> Better question the breathren of that lodge are ok with it?  I wouldnt be i dont care how much they were willing to pay
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app



Exactly!! What you permit, you promote. 


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## Brother JC

The temple board (building association) makes the decisions on who rents. They also have a local Wiccan group as renters.
As I said, my lodge also rents the space, so we have no say in it.


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## Brother JC

bupton52 said:


> Exactly!! What you permit, you promote.


I don't see an issue. Everything I have heard about this lodge, from Brethren I admire and respect, is that they are upright and in many ways more strict than we. They obviously haven't sat in lodge together but have had long chats.
They aren't the enemy, they're just different from us, and we can't Work together. I have sent women their way before and will again.


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## Glen Cook

Thomas Stright said:


> This, it has to be displayed in the lodge room. No exceptions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


Perhaps in your jurisdiction


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## Warrior1256

Ripcord22A said:


> And the GL of CA is ok with the lodge that owns that building renting to a clandestine group?





Ripcord22A said:


> Better question the breathren of that lodge are ok with it? I wouldnt be i dont care how much they were willing to pay





bupton52 said:


> Exactly!! What you permit, you promote.


Agreed!


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## Thomas Stright

Glen Cook said:


> Perhaps in your jurisdiction



True, but why wouldn't a lodge have it displayed?


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## Glen Cook

Thomas Stright said:


> True, but why wouldn't a lodge have it displayed?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry



Because we don't want to fuss with taking them out of containers, I guess


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## Mindovermatter Ace

Glen Cook said:


> Because we don't want to fuss with taking them out of containers, I guess



Haha! 


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## Ripcord22A

Warrior1256 said:


> Same here in Kentucky. Charter HAS to be displayed at each and every meeting.


Funny thing about charters....my lodge here has a copy of original charter displayed that say FREE and Accepted even though GL of NM is ANCIENT FREE and Accepted

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## Ripcord22A

@ some point in the past we switched

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## Bloke

tldubb said:


> In order for our lodges to open for any type of business our charter has to be displayed. No Charter displayed, No lodge meeting/communications.


Same here


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## Bloke

Glen Cook said:


> Because we don't want to fuss with taking them out of containers, I guess


It still has to be present though, correct? Presence of a charter might be something uniform.... i wonder if it's mentioned in various lists of "landmarks"...


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## tldubb

In our opening and closing ceremony our warrant/charter is referred to as part of the WM's portion of opening and closing ceremonies. 

Our constitution forbids using buildings, or lodge rooms with "clandestine" made mason or any such group. 


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## Elexir

Bloke said:


> It still has to be present though, correct? Presence of a charter might be something uniform.... i wonder if it's mentioned in various lists of "landmarks"...




Ive not found it on any of the landmarks lists and no its nothing "uniform" becuse not all freemasonic rites and rituals are the same.


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## Glen Cook

Bloke said:


> It still has to be present though, correct? Presence of a charter might be something uniform.... i wonder if it's mentioned in various lists of "landmarks"...


Yes, present, unless there is a dispensation


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## Glen Cook

Ripcord22A said:


> Funny thing about charters....my lodge here has a copy of original charter displayed that say FREE and Accepted even though GL of NM is ANCIENT FREE and Accepted
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


Utah was AF&AM, now is F&AM. A GSec changed the letterhead


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## Thomas Stright

Glen Cook said:


> Yes, present, unless there is a dispensation



We received a dispensation to have out 50th yr meeting at the lodge we shared back in 67. We still have our charter at that meeting. 


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## Keith C

Here in the GL of PA the warrant must be displayed for the lodge to meet, our warrant is that of the older of the two lodges that merged in 2014 with an addendum attached to the glass of the frame authorizing it to be used in the "new" lodge with a different name but same number that is on the original document. The warrant of the other lodge had to be surrendered to the GL when the merger took place.  When we install a new WM the framed warrant is physically transferred from the outgoing WM to the incoming WM, then put back in it's place in front of the WMs station in the East.  When our DDGM or the GM visits, the Warrant is symbolically transferred from the possession of the lodge to possession of the GL, then returned after the DDGM or GM is done with their portion of the visitation. 

For tax, liability and other reasons, our Lodge Hall is owned and controlled by the Hall Association, and the Lodge pays rent to the Hall Association.  The membership of the Hall Association is the same as the membership of the Lodge, but the Association only meets once per year to elect directors and the actual decisions are made by the directors.  So the actions of the Hall Association are somewhat independent of the  Lodge.


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## Ripcord22A

Glen Cook said:


> Utah was AF&AM, now is F&AM. A GSec changed the letterhead


Wait...thats why you guys changed?  Because a GSec changed the letterhead?

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## Mindovermatter Ace

Having a charter present while meeting dates back to the stone guild masons. The requirement of the charter being present may or may not be written in the laws of your jurisdiction but nonetheless is an ancient custom in Freemasonry. 

If the charter isn't present, you have no authority to work, unless under dispensation. 




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## Warrior1256

Glen Cook said:


> Utah was AF&AM, now is F&AM. A GSec changed the letterhead


When I first entered this forum almost three years ago I was informed by a member that the term AF&AM did not, and never had, existed. I quickly found out that this is not true.


Mindovermatter Ace said:


> If the charter isn't present, you have no authority to work, unless under dispensation.


Same here in my jurisdiction.


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## The Traveling Man

Brother JC said:


> Same in mine.
> Interesting sidebar; our lodge meets in one of two lodges in the area, not possessing a building of our own. This means there are always two Charters on display. At the last Stated I was a little surprised when I noticed a third Charter hanging on the wall... seems one of the groups that rent the space forgot something.


I used to belong to that Order. The Masonic Roundtable did an interview with the head of the Order last year.

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## freemasonpha

I help out with the our Lodge facebook page and was instructed not to use PHA just PH. 

Is PHA an American thing?

Thanks


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## Glen Cook

First, you were misdirected. PHA is considered regular. PHO is not.
PHA GLs do have lodges in some areas outside the US where US troops have had a presence.

May I ask your Grand Lodge?


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## freemasonpha

Thank you Brother for responding but I don't believe I was misdirected.

In Canada the A was dropped long ago. I understand PHO is clandestine and PHA in the US is regular, however, in Canada PH is used by the regular Prince Hall Lodge. The Lodge I'm a member of is the only Lodge in Canada to have worked continuously since 1866 and are the last of the Prince Hall Masons in Canada to own our building. More on the subject can we found here: http://tsmr.org/2006-jenkyns-phm.pdf

The post made here ( http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.ca/2008/07/grand-lodge-of-ontario-recognizes-mw.html ) mentions the GL linked below. 

We are regular and use PH. 

https://www.princehallonj.org/

I was just asking if this was a regular thing in the US and after posting I see it is.

Thank you again.


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## Glen Cook

I apologise if I in anyway indicated your GL was irregular. That was not my intent. 

If your GL gave you the direction not indicate the A, who am I to correct them?


----------



## freemasonpha

In my zeal to talk about my Lodge I may have given the wrong idea, I was not offended, just zealous. 

Thank you


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## acjohnson53

PHA- Prince Hall Affiliated....


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## acjohnson53

Simply your affiliation, in this case you are affiliated with Prince Lodges...


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## Bro. David F. Hill

A quick lesson, both PHA and PHO are regular because they can trace their lineage back to African Lodge 459. The difference is that PHA is recognized while PHO is not. At one point all Grand Lodges were under the National Compact but then the Grand Lodges split from the Compact because of dissatisfaction with the leadership and a wish to be sovereign (State's Rights).  Anything other than these two are clandestine. I find that many people don't know the story about the split nor do they know what groups are clandestine.

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## tldubb

PHO is not regular.


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## tldubb

Here we go again.


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## Glen Cook

Bro. David F. Hill said:


> A quick lesson, both PHA and PHO are regular because they can trace their lineage back to African Lodge 459. The difference is that PHA is recognized while PHO is not. At one point all Grand Lodges were under the National Compact but then the Grand Lodges split from the Compact because of dissatisfaction with the leadership and a wish to be sovereign (State's Rights).  Anything other than these two are clandestine. I find that many people don't know the story about the split nor do they know what groups are clandestine.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using My Freemasonry mobile app


I have am somewhat conversant with the National Compact history. PHO is not considered regular by CGMNA and this is the first time I’ve heard a PHA Grand Lodge indicate otherwise.

I don’t wish to disturb the harmony of the list, and so will invite you to discuss the issue at the rather harshly named FB page https://www.facebook.com/groups/267483426933994/


----------



## aceumus

Bro. David F. Hill said:


> A quick lesson, both PHA and PHO are regular because they can trace their lineage back to African Lodge 459. The difference is that PHA is recognized while PHO is not. At one point all Grand Lodges were under the National Compact but then the Grand Lodges split from the Compact because of dissatisfaction with the leadership and a wish to be sovereign (State's Rights).  Anything other than these two are clandestine. I find that many people don't know the story about the split nor do they know what groups are clandestine.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using My Freemasonry mobile app




This is totally incorrect information. PHO is NOT regular because they do not have the same origins as PHA. PHO began through a a convention and the NGL has never had any legal Masonic authority. It's clandestine which is why they were never provided recognition although they have requested recognition several times throughout it's history. Please afford me more time to go into depth of he NGL history as it relates to Masonic jurisprudence. 


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## the_widows_son

tldubb said:


> PHO is not regular.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


Definitely Irregular not Spurious like JGJ AF&AM however still not recognized by Regular Brothers of the Craft.

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## Bro. David F. Hill

You are correct in calling them irregular. I erred in using the wrong term but the rest of the story is correct. 

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## the_widows_son

I agree with you Brother

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## freemasonpha

acjohnson53 said:


> Simply your affiliation, in this case you are affiliated with Prince Lodges...



"I am a Prince Hall Mason not affiliated with them" was the response I got.


----------



## Kenneth Munn

aceumus said:


> This is totally incorrect information. PHO is NOT regular because they do not have the same origins as PHA. PHO began through a a convention and the NGL has never had any legal Masonic authority. It's clandestine which is why they were never provided recognition although they have requested recognition several times throughout it's history. Please afford me more time to go into depth of he NGL history as it relates to Masonic jurisprudence.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app


Greetings to the group and Peace and Blessings to you all.  PHO is Not regular because they do not have the same origins as PHA. Will you care to elaborate as well as illustrate this point.


----------



## Kenneth Munn

Greetings to the group and Peace and Blessings to you all. PHO is not regular because they do not have the same origins as PHA. Will you care to elaborate as well as illustrate this point.


----------



## Ripcord22A

It's quite simple actually can you name one pho Lodge that has an unbroken lineage back to African Lodge 459? You cannot and therefore they are not regular and or recognized. Regardless of what some may think there are zero Grand lodges within the United States that recognize Pho as a legitimate branch of Freemasonry. And by Grand Lodge I mean Grand Lodge of whatever state or most worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of whatever state. I do not mean Hiram Abiff Grand Lodge of modern and exquisite  Freemasonries of the world

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## Kenneth Munn

Ripcord22A said:


> It's quite simple actually can you name one pho Lodge that has an unbroken lineage back to African Lodge 459? You cannot and therefore they are not regular and or recognized. Regardless of what some may think there are zero Grand lodges within the United States that recognize Pho as a legitimate branch of Freemasonry. And by Grand Lodge I mean Grand Lodge of whatever state or most worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of whatever state. I do not mean Hiram Abiff Grand Lodge of modern and exquisite  Freemasonries of the world
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


Greetings, Are you asking me can I name 1 Grand Lodge (PHO) that do not have an lineage back to African Lodge 459. My next question is that you attempt to answer the question yourself by stating that I cannot. My question to you is, have you done extensive research on this subject. I have been doing some research on this subject due to the history that exist amongst The African American Masonic Family as it relates to the organization as a whole. Some people tend to follow without thoroughly researching the topic for themselves. I have family members who are in both groups and I here the history from different perspectives. I also have read several proceedings that detail certain movements within jurisdictions that did not agree with The National Grand Lodge for certain reasons. Some motives was sovereignty, leadership, rebellion, and a few others. Most of the Grand Lodges that came into existence was a result of the National Grand Lodge. At that time there was no distinction in regards to PHA and PHO. It was one body. I recently viewed a masonic discussion on Phoenix Masonry that discussed the lineage of PHO with Alton Roundtree as its guest. He stated that "In 2012 at The Conference of Grand Masters (PHA) stated that the (PHO)National Grand Lodge can trace their lineage back to African Lodge #459.  and they had continuity of operations. Now they may not be recognized but regular. I have more proceedings to read as well as producing a work entitled Parallel Proceedings during that time. Now as far as regularity amongst Grand Lodges, I think that we should research the irregularity amongst the start of some Mainstream Grand Lodges and their history. Its not that quite square and exact. This is an ongoing research  study that I'm pursuing and if you have any proceedings that you would like to provide or any documentation to bring forth then please produce your work. Even The UGLE has a distorted beginning with its history are you aware of that.


----------



## Ripcord22A

Nope I was asking if you could name a PHO Lodge WITH unbroken lineage to African 459.  Second as for the UGLE o believe you mean Premiere GL,  and they stated Freemasonry as we know it so they made the rules

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## Bill Lins

Ripcord22A said:


> I do not mean Hiram Abiff Grand Lodge of modern and exquisite  Freemasonries of the world


Now that's funny right there!


----------



## tldubb

I think of like this if your GL cannot trace there lineage to Grand Lodges of England, Scotland or Ireland...”Houston we have a problem”...


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## tldubb

The picture below is from 300th Anniversary of freemasonry Grand Masters from around the World with UGLE HRH GrandMaster the Duke of Kent.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## bupton52

Kenneth Munn said:


> Greetings, Are you asking me can I name 1 Grand Lodge (PHO) that do not have an lineage back to African Lodge 459. My next question is that you attempt to answer the question yourself by stating that I cannot. My question to you is, have you done extensive research on this subject. I have been doing some research on this subject due to the history that exist amongst The African American Masonic Family as it relates to the organization as a whole. Some people tend to follow without thoroughly researching the topic for themselves. I have family members who are in both groups and I here the history from different perspectives. I also have read several proceedings that detail certain movements within jurisdictions that did not agree with The National Grand Lodge for certain reasons. Some motives was sovereignty, leadership, rebellion, and a few others. Most of the Grand Lodges that came into existence was a result of the National Grand Lodge. At that time there was no distinction in regards to PHA and PHO. It was one body. I recently viewed a masonic discussion on Phoenix Masonry that discussed the lineage of PHO with Alton Roundtree as its guest. He stated that "In 2012 at The Conference of Grand Masters (PHA) stated that the (PHO)National Grand Lodge can trace their lineage back to African Lodge #459.  and they had continuity of operations. Now they may not be recognized but regular. I have more proceedings to read as well as producing a work entitled Parallel Proceedings during that time. Now as far as regularity amongst Grand Lodges, I think that we should research the irregularity amongst the start of some Mainstream Grand Lodges and their history. Its not that quite square and exact. This is an ongoing research  study that I'm pursuing and if you have any proceedings that you would like to provide or any documentation to bring forth then please produce your work. Even The UGLE has a distorted beginning with its history are you aware of that.



This isn’t remotely true. 


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## bupton52

bupton52 said:


> This isn’t remotely true.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using My Freemasonry mobile app



Roundtree has a flawed view of the continuity of the NGL. At this point, with all of the information that has been presented to him, he’s just selling books. 


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----------



## Kenneth Munn

bupton52 said:


> Roundtree has a flawed view of the continuity of the NGL. At this point, with all of the information that has been presented to him, he’s just selling books.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using My Freemasonry mobile app


Greetings my brother, I would like to know what is not true about Brother Roundtree works and what is not remotely true about the information that I posted. Mr. Roundtree is not my only source, but I mentioned him because he obviously has some facts in regards to the NGL not shutting down. I found that to be very interesting. I've been doing research on this topic off and on for quite sometime and recently decided to put forth more time in finding out information leading up to the dissension that took place with several Grand lodges as well as cross referencing proceedings prior to and after 1888. There are some proceedings that I would like to reference regarding the leave and how some jurisdictions that left the NGL wanted recognition from neighboring jurisdictions to maintain unity within the order. If you could post some of your research on the topic regarding your statements, I think it would be historically helpful.I intend to research the history because that is something I enjoy doing and often times when travelling you just can't take anybody's word on a topic as historical as this one.


----------



## Jeff Thomas

bupton52 said:


> Here is the cliff notes version:
> 
> The National Grand Lodge (NGL) was meant to be like a COGM to stop clandestine freemasons and spread "negro" freemasonry. Once they started to try to exercise authority over GLs, those GLs started separating themselves (becoming independent like they are today) By the time the convention of 1878 came in Delaware, hardly anybody showed up. There wasn't enough representation to even open the session (quorum) Convention after that, same thing. GL's had pulled away and became independent, thus returning sovereignty to the State GL and not having a GM over state GMs like the NGL is set up. The NGL even started putting replacement GLs in some of the states where the existing regular PHGLs are today! The structure of the NGL/PHO is irregular. The fact that they continued to operate after dying is clandestine. Also the fact the National Grand Master (NGM) put out Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) that include goals to "Establish recognition with Modern Free Masons, Scottish Rite Masons and International Masons." ,which are known clandestine organizations, makes it even less likely that the NGL/PHO will ever be considered a regular organization or recognized by the rest of the masonic community.




It just seems unfair to those members who respectfully practice the craft and exemplify brotherhood.  It is 2020 some sort of reconciliation has to come about. Simple out we are stronger together than we are apart. A lesson that in my opinion the black community my community tend to miss.


----------



## Bill Lins

I disagree that it is "unfair". Once a man learns that he has joined a clandestine order, avenues exist for him to rectify his situation. He can either go to PHA or to the other legitimate Grand Lodge of whatever state in which he resides, such as our good Brother Upton has done. Or he can stay put & enjoy the fellowship of the group he is in, but miss out on the benefits of regular & recognized Masonry. It's his call.


----------



## Thomas Stright

Jeff Thomas said:


> It is 2020 some sort of reconciliation has to come about.



Problem I see is that most clandestine PHA lodges are operated for profit...


----------



## bupton52

Thomas Stright said:


> Problem I see is that most clandestine PHA lodges are operated for profit...



There is no such thing as a clandestine PHA lodge. Those are just clandestine lodges that have predominantly black members. 


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## bupton52

Thomas Stright said:


> Problem I see is that most clandestine PHA lodges are operated for profit...



But to your point, that’s exactly why most clandestine organizations exist. Someone is trying to make some money.


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## Brother JC

“Bobs Grand Lodge of Pyramid [Scheme] Masonry, Inc!”


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## Thomas Stright

bupton52 said:


> There is no such thing as a clandestine PHA lodge.



Any grand lodge/lodge not recognized by The Grand Lodge of Texas is clandestine to me...


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## bupton52

Thomas Stright said:


> Any grand lodge/lodge not recognized by The Grand Lodge of Texas is clandestine to me...



At least you won’t be able to say that no one ever told you.  

Let’s just use this situation. If the UGLE withdraws recognition from the Grand Lodge of TX, is Texas now clandestine? 


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## Thomas Stright

bupton52 said:


> At least you won’t be able to say that no one ever told you.
> 
> Let’s just use this situation. If the UGLE withdraws recognition from the Grand Lodge of TX, is Texas now clandestine?



Not to Me, I'm a member of TGLoT, not of UGLE.


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## bupton52

Thomas Stright said:


> Not to Me, I'm a member of TGLoT, not of UGLE.



So then, like I said before, there are no Clandestine Prince Hall Grand Lodges. They are are regular regardless of recognition status. 


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## bupton52

Thomas Stright said:


> Problem I see is that most clandestine PHA lodges are operated for profit...



For clarification, are you saying that regular Prince Hall Grand Lodges are operating for profit or are you incorrectly assigning the predominantly black spurious organizations the name Prince Hall? 


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## Thomas Stright

bupton52 said:


> For clarification, are you saying that regular Prince Hall Grand Lodges are operating for profit or are you incorrectly assigning the predominantly black spurious organizations the name Prince Hall?



100% of men that I have met that said they were Prince Hall Masons were members of Grand Lodges located here in Texas other than The Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas located in Fort Worth.... Like I said Clandestine.


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## bupton52

Thomas Stright said:


> 100% of men that I have met that said they were Prince Hall Masons were members of Grand Lodges located here in Texas other than The Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas located in Fort Worth.... Like I said Clandestine.



Well they lied to you. That’s so strange because normally those guys proudly separate themselves from being Prince Hall masons. Either way, I’m trying to help you understand. While it sounds like you have a bad experience with some clandestine folks, in no way is what you are saying correct. 


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----------



## Thomas Stright

bupton52 said:


> While it sounds like you have a bad experience with some clandestine folks, in no way is what you are saying correct.



Does TGLoT recognize any Grand Lodges that are based in Houston?


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## bupton52

Thomas Stright said:


> Does TGLoT recognize any Grand Lodges that are based in Houston?



They do not. Those other random Grand Lodges in Houston are also not Prince Hall Grand Lodges. 


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## Thomas Stright

So other than mistaken them for PHA they are clandestine... right?


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## bupton52

Thomas Stright said:


> So other than mistaken them for PHA they are clandestine... right?



That is correct. 


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## TonyT2020

bupton52 said:


> The PHO of yesterday is not the same one that operates today. The original was shut down and the one that operates now is doing so clandestinely. Everything from holding annual communication without quorum to self apoointed National Grand Masters.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile


Wow, this is horrible.  I didnt know that they were operating in that manner.


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## TonyT2020

acjohnson53 said:


> If I don't see a Charter, I'm out....No questions asked...



Very true... a legitimate charter that a Grand Lodge will acknowledge.


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## acjohnson53

exactly, I ain't gon let the door hit me in the ass....


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## Bro. Mbombo

This is a very disappointing thread. Arguing opinions that lead to nothing but more division, I will continue to look to the east in my pursuit of faith, hope, and charity. I will love all my brothers who meet on the level and depart on the square. So Mote It Be.


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## Glen Cook

Thomas Stright said:


> Problem I see is that most clandestine PHA lodges are operated for profit...


If I may, the confusion is in using the term PHA. There is only one PHA GL in Texas. There are others others using Prince Hall, but not Prince Hall Affiliated. Affiliated is the key (no pun intended, ‘cause it’s the other guys that use the key). 

And yes, the others are clandestine to GL TX and PHA TX, and every other state GL amd PHA GL that use the term.


----------



## Glen Cook

Bro. Mbombo said:


> This is a very disappointing thread. Arguing opinions that lead to nothing but more division, I will continue to look to the east in my pursuit of faith, hope, and charity. I will love all my brothers who meet on the level and depart on the square. So Mote It Be.


May I ask, does your ritual use the term “clandestine”?


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## Ron Story

Saw this Prince Hall Lodge on St. Helena, SC close to Beaufort.
First time I had seen the PHO abbreviation.


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## Glen Cook

Ron Story said:


> Saw this Prince Hall Lodge on St. Helena, SC close to Beaufort.
> First time I had seen the PHO abbreviation.


A demonstration of why saying “Prince Hall” can lead to confusion.


----------



## Ron Story

?. Why is saying Prince Hall confusion? Don't understand your thought process on that statement.


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## Glen Cook

Ron Story said:


> ?. Why is saying Prince Hall confusion? Don't understand your thought process on that statement.


Ok. Here ya go:

when I say “Prince Hall,” to what organisation am I referring?


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## Bill Lins

Ron Story said:


> ?. Why is saying Prince Hall confusion? Don't understand your thought process on that statement.


Our esteemed Bro. Cook answered that question in an earlier post: "There are others others using Prince Hall, but not Prince Hall Affiliated."


----------



## Glen Cook

Bill Lins said:


> Our esteemed Bro. Cook answered that question in an earlier post: "There are others others using Prince Hall, but not Prince Hall Affiliated."


Wait. Did you just say I was steamed?


----------



## coachn

Glen Cook said:


> Wait. Did you just say I was steamed?


No, it was his way of saying you're "smoking hot!"


----------



## Brother JC

Si, we esteem the tamales to make them hot.


----------



## Glen Cook

coachn said:


> No, it was his way of saying you're "smoking hot!"


NOW, I’m worried.


----------



## Bill Lins

coachn said:


> No, it was his way of saying you're "smoking hot!"


Sorry, I'm not that kind of guy. YMMV.


----------



## leevesterclay

MarkR said:


> PHO is also referred to as "National Compact."  Quite some time ago (mid 1800's IIRC,) some Prince Hall Lodges decided to have a national Grand Lodge.  They apparently thought all Prince Hall Lodges would go along, but they didn't.  So, it caused a schism.  PHO has a national Grand Lodge (http://www.mwnationalgrandlodge.org/), PHA is organized with state Grand Lodges only.  When "mainstream" state Grand Lodges started recognizing Prince Hall, they started recognizing PHA.  I also think there a lot more PHA Lodges and brothers than PHO.


The National Grand Lodge was established on June 24, 1847 in Boston, Massachusetts:

By the power and authority of the National Grand Lodge invested, grand lodges and subordinate lodges were constituted by warrant in the following States: Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, Grand Lodge of New York, Grand Lodge of New Jersey, Grand Lodge of Maryland, Grand Lodge of Ohio, Grand Lodge of Indiana, Grand Lodge of Michigan, Grand Lodge of Illinois, Grand Lodge of Kentucky, Grand Lodge of Nebraska, Grand Lodge of Colorado and Wyoming, Territory Grand Lodge of California, Grand Lodge of Arkansas, Grand Lodge of Virginia, Grand Lodge of Tennessee, Grand Lodge of Mississippi, Grand Lodge of Texas, Grand Lodge of Georgia, Grand Lodge of Louisiana, Grand Lodge of North Carolina, Grand Lodge of South Carolina, Grand Lodge of Florida.

LEGITIMATE AND LEGAL NEGRO MASONS: From African Lodge #459, Boston, Massachusetts other Lodges were formed until there were enough Lodges to form a Grand Lodge in this State. Pennsylvania and New York also set up Lodges in their states. In 1847 the various grand lodges elected delegates and sent them to Boston for the purpose of organizing a National Grand Lodge under a National Compact and an Agreement of Sentiments. The National Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Ancient York Masons (Colored) for the United States of America was constituted. All of the Lodges surrendered their warrants and were IN FACT re-warranted by the National Grand Lodge under the first National Grand Master, John T. Hilton. A National Constitution and by-laws were drawn up to govern this body of colored York Rite Masons. Thus, to be a LEGITIMATE and LEGALLY constituted body of Colored Masons, the Masonic Body must be FREE AND ACCEPTED ANCIENT YORK RITE, PRINCE HALL ORIGIN NATIONAL COMPACT.

PRINCE HALL ORIGIN: The name Prince Hall being associated with a Grand Lodge resulted from a Grand Warrant issued by the National Masons (Colored), to the Prince Hall Grand Lodge in Boston, Mass. in 1848; one year after the Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Ancient York Masons (Colored), to the Prince Hall Grand Lodge in Boston, Mass. It was on April 28, 1848 that the National Grand Lodge presented the Old African Grand Lodge of Boston a new State warrant under the name Prince Hall Grand Lodge. In most of the early States the warrants and charters for constituting a Grand Lodge were granted by the National Grand Lodge. From 1848 to 1888 the National Grand Lodge issued nearly all of the Warrants and Charters for Grand Lodges. Around 1863 there came dissension and disagreement among the members of the National Grand Lodge and some of the delegates walked out. From the group that left the National Grand Lodge, charters were secured by them to practice masonry under the sanction of the State. This group later took the name Prince Hall Masons, who are often referred to as “State Rite” Masons.

COLORED YORK RITE: The word “York” used in connection with Colored Masonry frequently raises a question in the minds of some and is challenged by others. Ancient York Masonry is the oldest and the mother of all Masonry. Its origin dates back 4000 years before Christ to the time of Noah and the Flood. York Masonry was the mother of all National Grand Lodges. If the Grand Lodge of England could organize a constitutional body then the organization of a National Grand Lodge under Grand Master John T. Hilton was no new innovation; nor did it violate any of the Ancient Land Marks of Freemasonry.

NATIONAL COMPACT: Some critics of Colored York Masonry attack the word “Compact” used in connection with our title. They say the word compact has no relation whatsoever with Masonry. To those who make such a charge, let it be made clear that “Compact” in our Masonic title stands in same relation as the word “Affiliation” or “Auxiliary” in others. God the Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost formed a Compact in the creation of the world. Throughout the Biblical Scripture references are made to Men dwelling in UNITY and joined together in a Compact Body that they might do the work of their Father in Heaven. In the true tradition of York Masons, the only Christian route of masonry, following the Principles and Practices of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, a “COMPACT” of AGREEMENTS and SENTIMENTS.


----------



## leevesterclay

TravelLight91 said:


> What is the difference between PHO and PHA? I am hearing that PHO is considered bogus and not legit masonry? Could someone explain more please?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Brother Caution.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile


PHA came from PHO


----------



## Glen Cook

You forgot to finish the history with the dissolution of the NGL:






						PHO vs PHA
					

"Of late years, however, so many of the State Grand Lodges have repudiated the authority of the National Compact, that, at its last communication, held March , 1873, in Philadelphia, a vote to dissolve the body failed by the following insignificant vote, viz: Yeas-States 7: members, 42;proxies...



					www.myfreemasonry.com
				





leevesterclay said:


> The National Grand Lodge was established on June 24, 1847 in Boston, Massachusetts:
> 
> By the power and authority of the National Grand Lodge invested, grand lodges and subordinate lodges were constituted by warrant in the following States: Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, Grand Lodge of New York, Grand Lodge of New Jersey, Grand Lodge of Maryland, Grand Lodge of Ohio, Grand Lodge of Indiana, Grand Lodge of Michigan, Grand Lodge of Illinois, Grand Lodge of Kentucky, Grand Lodge of Nebraska, Grand Lodge of Colorado and Wyoming, Territory Grand Lodge of California, Grand Lodge of Arkansas, Grand Lodge of Virginia, Grand Lodge of Tennessee, Grand Lodge of Mississippi, Grand Lodge of Texas, Grand Lodge of Georgia, Grand Lodge of Louisiana, Grand Lodge of North Carolina, Grand Lodge of South Carolina, Grand Lodge of Florida.
> 
> LEGITIMATE AND LEGAL NEGRO MASONS: From African Lodge #459, Boston, Massachusetts other Lodges were formed until there were enough Lodges to form a Grand Lodge in this State. Pennsylvania and New York also set up Lodges in their states. In 1847 the various grand lodges elected delegates and sent them to Boston for the purpose of organizing a National Grand Lodge under a National Compact and an Agreement of Sentiments. The National Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Ancient York Masons (Colored) for the United States of America was constituted. All of the Lodges surrendered their warrants and were IN FACT re-warranted by the National Grand Lodge under the first National Grand Master, John T. Hilton. A National Constitution and by-laws were drawn up to govern this body of colored York Rite Masons. Thus, to be a LEGITIMATE and LEGALLY constituted body of Colored Masons, the Masonic Body must be FREE AND ACCEPTED ANCIENT YORK RITE, PRINCE HALL ORIGIN NATIONAL COMPACT.
> 
> PRINCE HALL ORIGIN: The name Prince Hall being associated with a Grand Lodge resulted from a Grand Warrant issued by the National Masons (Colored), to the Prince Hall Grand Lodge in Boston, Mass. in 1848; one year after the Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Ancient York Masons (Colored), to the Prince Hall Grand Lodge in Boston, Mass. It was on April 28, 1848 that the National Grand Lodge presented the Old African Grand Lodge of Boston a new State warrant under the name Prince Hall Grand Lodge. In most of the early States the warrants and charters for constituting a Grand Lodge were granted by the National Grand Lodge. From 1848 to 1888 the National Grand Lodge issued nearly all of the Warrants and Charters for Grand Lodges. Around 1863 there came dissension and disagreement among the members of the National Grand Lodge and some of the delegates walked out. From the group that left the National Grand Lodge, charters were secured by them to practice masonry under the sanction of the State. This group later took the name Prince Hall Masons, who are often referred to as “State Rite” Masons.
> 
> COLORED YORK RITE: The word “York” used in connection with Colored Masonry frequently raises a question in the minds of some and is challenged by others. Ancient York Masonry is the oldest and the mother of all Masonry. Its origin dates back 4000 years before Christ to the time of Noah and the Flood. York Masonry was the mother of all National Grand Lodges. If the Grand Lodge of England could organize a constitutional body then the organization of a National Grand Lodge under Grand Master John T. Hilton was no new innovation; nor did it violate any of the Ancient Land Marks of Freemasonry.
> 
> NATIONAL COMPACT: Some critics of Colored York Masonry attack the word “Compact” used in connection with our title. They say the word compact has no relation whatsoever with Masonry. To those who make such a charge, let it be made clear that “Compact” in our Masonic title stands in same relation as the word “Affiliation” or “Auxiliary” in others. God the Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost formed a Compact in the creation of the world. Throughout the Biblical Scripture references are made to Men dwelling in UNITY and joined together in a Compact Body that they might do the work of their Father in Heaven. In the true tradition of York Masons, the only Christian route of masonry, following the Principles and Practices of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, a “COMPACT” of AGREEMENTS and SENTIMENTS.


----------



## leevesterclay

TravelLight91 said:


> What is the difference between PHO and PHA? I am hearing that PHO is considered bogus and not legit masonry? Could someone explain more please?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Brother Caution.
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile





perryel said:


> NGL still exists. Got it.  PHO shares a legitimate Masonic history with PHA.  Got it.  At some point, there was a schism that placed the authority claimed by NGL beyond the bounds of regular Freemasonry.  Got it.  Therefore, despite its historical origins, the contemporary NGL is irregular.
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> Someone please close this thread.
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> 
> My Freemasonry HD


if I paid you money would you recognized me


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## MarkR

leevesterclay said:


> if I paid you money would you recognized me


First of all, that's a very cynical question, and implies that we're corrupt.  Secondly, recognition is not up to the individual Mason.  My Grand Lodge does not recognize your Grand Lodge (assuming you're PHO) and therefore the question is settled for me.


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## coachn

leevesterclay said:


> The National Grand Lodge was established on June 24, 1847 in Boston, Massachusetts:
> ...


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## Bloke

Glen Cook said:


> You forgot to finish the history with the dissolution of the NGL:
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> PHO vs PHA
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> "Of late years, however, so many of the State Grand Lodges have repudiated the authority of the National Compact, that, at its last communication, held March , 1873, in Philadelphia, a vote to dissolve the body failed by the following insignificant vote, viz: Yeas-States 7: members, 42;proxies...
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> www.myfreemasonry.com


Thank you Brother - it is great to have your knowledgeable contributions here.


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