# What would you like to see changed in the Masonic experience?



## cemab4y

Masonry is moving into the 21st century. What would you like to see changed? There are some administrative procedures, that could be modified or eliminated. New ideas could be adopted by lodges (and Grand Lodges), that could make Masonry more relevant and exciting to our members. 

What do you think?

I want to make it clear, that I am not interested in changing _ Masonry _.  I am however very interested in developing new ideas and changing the Masonic _experience._  New administrative procedures, and better use of 21st century technology, will enable us to enjoy the Masonic experience more fully. We can still be anchored to our "roots". 

The Grand Lodge of Virginia, has a twitter account. My home lodge, does not even have a web page. 

"We live in a world, in which the only constant is change" - Heraclitus, 452 B.C.


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## cemab4y

Here is an idea, that I have been thinking about for a long time.

A Widow's liaison committee:

1- Assemble a list of all of the Masonic widows in your immediate area. All masonic widows, whether the deceased husband was a member of your lodge or not.  Utilize the local media and get a press release. Make it a project for your Job's Daughters/Rainbow.
Once you have the list (names/addresses/emails/phone etc), make the list accessible to your lodge membership. Keep it on your lodge website in a member's only area.

2- Contact all of your widows in person and by email/phone/postal mail. Let them know that the lodge is there for them. Offer to assist them in any area, where you can be of help. Cleaning out the rain spouts, cutting the yard, driving them to the doctor, etc. Remember your obligations.

3- Get volunteers from your lodge, to be on a list to be called when needed. Wives, children can assist as well. Inform your youth groups of this program, their members can also assist. 

4- Provide each widow with a list of telephone numbers, where she can call for assistance. Prepare refrigerator magnets, with the lodge phone number, and the contact information for the widow's assistance committee.

5- Each Christmas season, send each widow a poinsettia/fruit basket, etc. 

6- Yearly, host a widow's appreciation banquet. Offer to transport each widow to the lodge building for the dinner.

Your widows will be grateful. You will be rendering master's wages, to the deceased brother. 

What does your lodge do for your Masonic widows?


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## blackbeard

i'd like to see LESS change.  we are all too eager to change things today, imho...


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## blackbeard

our lodge DOES stay in touch with all our widows, does a luncheon at an expensive restaurant for them every year.  we invite them to all our social gatherings and assist them any way we can anytime they ask.  we have gotten together groups to do lawn work for them, brought them food, given them rides to appointments, whatever they need.  it is always appreciated and does us as much good as it does them...


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## JohnnyFlotsam

Brother, that is an outstanding idea. We should be doing more for these ladies than the traditional, once-a-year "Widows' Night" and a poinsettia at Christmas. 

My idea is to bring technology into the experience, and no, I am most certainly not talking about playing a canned lecture on degree nights. The Scottish Rite degrees of the early to mid 20th century were marvels of stage production technology of their day. The means to similarly add impact to all of our degrees is within the means of most Lodges. A few lights, a decent sound system, and a PC and "board" to control it could add immensely. Heck, just having music in our Lodge once again would be a welcome treat for most of us. Organ music used to be a staple (I'm told), and there's a Hammond in just about every Lodge room I've ever been in, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen any of them played. I'd even settle for recorded music, if it was chosen tastefully and delivered by someone who knew how to run a board.


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## cemab4y

I once attended Fredericksburg lodge #4, in Fredericksburg VA (George Washington took the Masonic degrees there).  After the lodge was called to order, and every one was quiet, the auditorium lights were dimmed. A selection of Mozart, was played on the sound system, for a period of contemplation. The lights were brought back up, and the meeting proceeded. I thought that was terrific.


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## Benton

cemab4y said:


> I once attended Fredericksburg lodge #4, in Fredericksburg VA (George Washington took the Masonic degrees there).  After the lodge was called to order, and every one was quiet, the auditorium lights were dimmed. A selection of Mozart, was played on the sound system, for a period of contemplation. The lights were brought back up, and the meeting proceeded. I thought that was terrific.


 
Sounds wonderful to me! I don't know if that would be quite so well received by all lodges however. Maybe some should play some Brad Paisley in a moment of quiet contemplation.


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## Casey

My mother is a widow of a mason.  I attend the same lodge my father did.  It is a great lodge, and I'm proud to be a member there.  However she has had very little interaction with the lodge since his passing, and very little interaction from most of the brothers; several that were pallbearers at his funeral; weekly fishing buddy friends.... not the once a month at stated meeting brothers. 

I think the suggestion by Brother Charles is fantastic, and is not a (CHANGE); it's something that should be happening ALREADY.

Now that is a novel question though, when someone suggests a change from the actual state; but that change is to a level we were intending to be at; is it really a change?  

I also agree with Brother Kevin; doing anything different just for the sake of doing things different is folly and unwarranted.  Masonry has lasted for so long b/c of tradition, if each generation throws too many of their own spices in the pot, it won't be long before the dish doesn't taste like it is supposed to.


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## JohnnyFlotsam

Is it change to go from failing to fulfill our obligation to actually fulfilling it? Maybe we're splitting semantic hairs here, but I'd say yes. It is definitely a change, in our behavior, bringing us more in line with the "intent". 

As for change for change's sake, that's seldom a good idea. But when the status quo is failing to achieve the desired results, Einstein tells us that change is the only sane thing to do. 

And I don't think anyone is suggesting abandoning any worthy traditions. In fact, there are a lot of traditions that have fallen by the wayside (dramatic degree work, music in Lodge, caring for our widows) that deserve to be dusted off and brought back into regular use. In other words, _change_.


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## mark!

I'm in agreement that change for the sake of change is not a good idea, but there are definitely things we could all do better, or have our lodge do better to help the lodge itself, each brother, masonry as a whole, and ourselves as well.  Dramatic degree work, when done, is absolutely amazing and leaves a lasting impression, I really enjoy seeing it, and being involved in it.  Our widows certainly have to be taken care of, and I believe everyone should be in agreement with that as well.  

Technology is a wonderful thing, some are stand offish and don't want to embrace it just yet, but look at what we have here.  We have a group of guys here, together, giving and getting great information to better ourselves to better serve the group of masonry.  I think a change in that aspect should be that more lodges should embrace it and use it to the best of their ability.  Networking is huge, the better we can get the word out of a degree or event, the better the turn out the more we get our faces and names out to the public the more people know about us, etc.


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## cemab4y

As I stated, I am NOT interested in changing _Masonry._  But, I would love to press for some changes in the Masonic _experience._  We can embrace our traditions, and also move Masonry into the 21st century.  We can and should look to the past, and revive some of our cherished traditions.

For example, Masonry was the driving force in establishing free (tax-supported) public education in the USA. Horace Mann (Freemason) was instrumental in establishing reforms, such as a graded curriculum, in Massachusetts public education. His reforms were adopted by many states, and many of his reforms are still in use today. 

A lodge in Kansas City, underwrites (supports) several educational television programs on Kansas City public TV (KCPT-TV). I think this is terrific, keeping in our splendid tradition of supporing public education, and embracing new technology. 

I would love to see Masonry, becoming more active in community affairs, and our lodges once again being instrumental in the lives of our families.  Keeping to our traditions, and moving with the times.


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## preachbarnes

What I would like to see in Texas is unity between the Black four letter lodges and the White four letter lodges.
instead of having a black lodge and a white one I believe that more men would be made better, because each
mason man can help another because one may have something the other might need; as far as education on how 
to run a business, college, starting programs to help with different issues in their communitee the list goes on and 
on. Just because our skin color is different does not mean that another mans way of doing something better cant 
come from a different race.


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## mark!

preachbarnes said:


> What I would like to see in Texas is unity between the Black four letter lodges and the White four letter lodges.
> instead of having a black lodge and a white one I believe that more men would be made better, because each
> mason man can help another because one may have something the other might need; as far as education on how
> to run a business, college, starting programs to help with different issues in their communitee the list goes on and
> on. Just because our skin color is different does not mean that another mans way of doing something better cant
> come from a different race.



This is something that has been worked on, and hipefully will continue to be worked on until it is made that everyone mason, regardless of color, is just that...a Mason.


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## blackbeard

preachbarnes said:


> What I would like to see in Texas is unity between the Black four letter lodges and the White four letter lodges.
> instead of having a black lodge and a white one I believe that more men would be made better, because each
> mason man can help another because one may have something the other might need; as far as education on how
> to run a business, college, starting programs to help with different issues in their communitee the list goes on and
> on. Just because our skin color is different does not mean that another mans way of doing something better cant
> come from a different race.



it's just a matter of time, the small number of jurisdictions that this is still a problem is getting smaller every year.   i'm glad i was made a mason in a jurisdiction that got past this issue years ago, and hope that in the near future this will be a thing of the past for all jurisdictions.  i was a mason before i'd ever heard of prince hall masonry and it's history, especially in southern jurisdictions...my first thought was how UNmasonic this is.... a brother is a brother


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## LDSpears

I would like to see more things where we all come together. I went to an outdoor raising in Lousiana once where a whole lot of lodges from Texas were invited to come over and see it. They performed the whole thing in full costume with props and the whole bit. It was something to behold, and I am sure the candidate will never forget it. I saw where there was a cave raising not too long ago here in Texes, and I sure wish I could have attended. I bet it was great. Anyway, I think that would be something very positive for all of us. It is too bad Texas is so big because I see things happening that I would like to attend, but they are 8 or 12 hours away.  Maybe we could have some things that are strategically located throughout the state where everyone can make one or two of them a year.


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## cemab4y

The largest cave system in the world, is Mammoth Cave, Kentucky. It has over 300 miles of underground caverns. The lodge in Brownsville KY, does an annual MM degree, deep in the cave. They use a natural rock formation, as a grave.  The production is marvelous.

There is a lodge in Wyoming, that does a unique MM degree.  They load up an entire degree team on mules, and trek up to a mesa, out in the badlands. They set up the lodge on the top, and at sundown, they do the MM degree.  25 Master Masons go up the mountain, and 26 MMs travel down. Marvelous.

I wish more lodges would do outdoor degree work, and then SHARE the experience with photos and writeups in the masonic press, and on the internet.


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## cemab4y

Because my career requires frequent transfers, (I have spent nearly 14 years abroad, since I was made a Mason), I will probably never be given the privilege of serving Masonry as a Worshipful Master. Nevertheless, I have been working on a "dream list", of things I would do, should the fates permit me to be a WM some day. Here it is:

1- Every lodge should be required to have a web site. Sites can be had for free, so there is no reason why every lodge should not have one! 

2- Every Grand Lodge should recognize Prince Hall Masonry. 

3- Every Grand Lodge should host a statewide Open House, similar to Massachusetts. 

4- Every state should have an official Masonic vehicle license plate, issued by the state Department of Motor Vehicles. 

5- Every state Grand Lodge website, should have as a minimum: 

-Precise instructions on how to locate a lodge, and how to petition a lodge 
-A petition form, downloadable 

6- Every Grand Lodge should have a Liaison office- assisting and promoting Masonic youth groups. This office will provide guidance and assistance to lodges towards setting up and running Masonic youth Groups. 

7- Every lodge should have a "new Mason's program"- Each new mason should receive intense instruction in: 

-What it means to be a Mason 
-Introduction to the Appendant/Concordant bodies 
-How to participate in lodge meetings (how to introduce motions,etc) 
-Masonic etiquette 
-How to visit other lodges 
-How to tell your wife and family about Masonry 
-Masonic History 

8- Every Grand Lodge should provide for Masonic education, at the district level in the following: 

-Ritual Schools. Any Mason interested in learning ritual, can attend the schools, and be instructed in masonic ritual, and be given practices and rehearsals. 

-Leadership schools. Any Mason, prior to going through the chairs, and becoming a lodge officer, should receive intense instruction (at the district level), in how to run a lodge. Lessons in parliamentary procedure, lessons in how to run a non-profit organization, etc. 

9-Every lodge should host an annual "county fair", where all of the appendant/concordant bodies in the area would be invited in, on a Saturday. Each organization would set up a booth at the lodge hall. Masons (and the public) could attend the county fair, and learn about the appendant/concordant bodies, and the groups could distribute literature, and provide the attendees with application forms, and answer questions, etc. 

10- Every lodge should sponsor a "Masonic Square and Compasses Club". These clubs would meet outside the tyled lodge, and provide social activities, and dances, and barbecues,etc. There would be no degree work, nor any tyled meetings. Anyone interested in Masonry, can participate.

11- We need to realize that Prohibition is over (See the 22d amendment). We are all adults, and it is about time, that we brought alcohol, back into our lodges. Nearly every masonic Grand Lodge in the world (except for the USA) permits alcoholic beverages to be served in the lodge for refreshment. 

Some of these ideas may be controversial, but I think we should consider what is happening in Masonry in the 21st century and govern ourselves accordingly.


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## NickGarner

There are some great ideas in this thread!:thumbup:


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## cemab4y

One idea, I have been kicking around for some time: 

Every Mason (especially new Masons) should be given a "calling" in the lodge. Immediately upon attaining the MM degree, he should be informed that he is to provide some "sweat equity" to the lodge. A list of callings should be available to all members of the lodge, listing both permanent taskings (widow's committee, cleanup committee), and short-term tasks (replacing carpeting in the lobby). This listing should be posted on the lodge website. New taskings can be assigned as needed (shoveling snow in the winter), and obsolete taskings can be deleted. The list must be "dynamic". 

Each new Mason ( and all of the membership) should be offered an opportunity to select the calling, that he is best suited for. IT guys to the website committee, carpenters to the building upkeep committee,etc. A man who has no particular skill that matches a need, can still serve as an "apprentice", or a "go-fer". If there is no calling that he is interested in, have him come up with a calling of his own imagination. The important thing is to get him involved in something. Inform him that if the calling is not to his liking, he is free to select another calling. If he is unable to serve at all, let him know that it is OK, he can take a calling later. If he wishes to serve in more than one capacity, then that is fine,too.

The important concept is to let the man know, that the lodge is important _to him_, and that he is important _to the lodge_. His obligation to support Masonry does not begin and end with writing a check for his dues payment. This is an important psychological concept. Many Masons never volunteer their time to a lodge, because they do not know how. They do not know where the needs exist. Some are just too shy, to step up and ask how to help. 

When new Masons (and us old-timers, too) realize that they are needed and they should be involved in the functioning of the lodge, their Masonic experience will be enhanced. Instilling a sense of participation, even if it is just sweeping up the floor, is an important psychological tool. His Masonic experience will be enhanced, and he will be a member, and not just a dues-payer


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## NickGarner

Charles, check out this link to a lodge in Dallas

http://www.dallasmasons.org/about.html

It sounds like they are thinking along the same lines you are.


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## Benton

cemab4y said:


> 3- Every Grand Lodge should host a statewide Open House, similar to Massachusetts.


 
Just a thought on that idea, brother. I know our lodge recently tossed that idea around - having a lodge open house - as we're really starting to build up our membership again, and I think there are many that are excited about the momentum.

However, a very valid point some of the older brothers brought up is a particular church congregation in our area that is very anti-Masonic. Apparently, in the past when they've had meet and greets, open houses, etc, they've shown up at the lodge for the sole purpose of criticizing us, 'gathering information', etc. For less than honest purposes, basically. They have no interest in learning about Masonry, they simply want to find things to damn us for. 

As a result, all the older brothers were particularly cautious about having an advertised open house. The compromise was having brothers invite friends to our monthly breakfast, which is open to the public anyway, and really serves the same purpose in a lot of ways. It brings in other people, people who you generally know to be trustworthy because they're friends of brothers of the lodge, and you can avoid conflict with those who wish anything but the best for our fraternity.


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## dhouseholder

I would like to see more Traditional Observance lodges. I watched the the GM set Doric #420 to labor and thoroughly enjoyed the fellowship and the intellectual conversation afterwords. I unfortunately, and still kick myself today, missed Rex Hutchins at one of their dinners. Yes, the same Rex Hutchins that wrote "A Bridge to Light". I find TO lodges fascinating and hope that more are founded...


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## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



blackbeard said:


> i'd like to see LESS change. we are all too eager to change things today, imho...



If you are the kind of person who is opposed to change, you are in the right organization. Masons do not believe in change.


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## Bro Darren

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Freemasonry is centuries old and it's proven to last the tests of time. People are so eager to change things to suit "them" these days. If Freemasonry has stood the tests of time, why change it. 

If it's not broken, why fix it?

Just because something can be done does not mean it must be done!


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## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

You need to examine the title of this thread, and the general gist of the comments. No one is interested in changing _ Masonry _. But, there are many things that can be done to improve and enhance the Masonic _ experience_. 

Thomas Jefferson (not a Freemason) said :I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. 


Freemasonry is an ancient institution. Our ancient landmarks and traditions have served us well. But, our ancient operative brethren, and the men who set up the first Grand Lodge in England in 1717, could never have anticipated the internet. 

We can keep true to our ancient landmarks, and still embrace the technologies of the 21st Century. We can expand our outreach to Masonic widows. We can assist our unemployed brothers (and their dependents), in seeking employment. We can bring back some of our traditions, which have gone away. We can support education, and expand our scholarship programs. 

I believe sincerely, that we can keep true to our traditions, and also embrace changes which will improve and enhance our Masonic experience. 

In North America, Masonry is "broken".  Our membership numbers continue to plummet, and our lodges are closing. And too many Masons and Grand Lodges are not convinced that there is a problem ,and that everything is fine. 

The medical industry can avoid change. We can go back to bloodletting, and amputations without anesthesia. 

"We live in a world, in which the only constant is change" - Heraclitus, 400 BC.


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## Bro Darren

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Masonry number have always fluctuated since its early days and I'm not sure that it has nothing to do with the lack of IT in Lodges or Grand Lodges. People join Freemasonry for many reasons and I'm pretty sure that IT is not one of them.

Most (not all) of those in administration roles are seasoned Masons and are very very good at what they do. Many of them are not up to speed with modern technology and pushing them to change could push them out of office and we would lose many fantastic officers and members too.

IMO


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## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Any Grand Lodge officer who cannot cope with modern technology, needs to resign or be impeached. 

Any Mason who has difficulty with the internet, needs to check with his local library or vocational school and learn about e-mail, etc. 

If a Grand Lodge officer is unable to cope with 21st century technology, and gets "pushed out" of Freemasonry, then good. Masonry is better off without such men.


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## Bro Darren

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Freemasonry grew to over 5,000,000 in the USA without a PC in sight.


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## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Masonry peaked in the USA in 1959


 1956​ 4,053,323​ 1998​1,967,208 1957​ 4,085,676​ 1999​1,902,588 1958​ 4,099,928​ 2000​1,841,169       1959 ** 4,103,161​ 1960​ 4,099,219
   1961​ ​ 4,086,499
================

This was before color television, so what?

Here is the current situation in the USA:


*2012 Total**1,336,503**    2011 1,373,453**     Net loss:-36,950*


(Source: Masonic Service Association of North America) 




​ 


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## Bro Darren

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Technology has caused a massive drop in lots of org's and even quality family time I guess. People prefer to watch their favourite TV show or stay at home playing the latest Facebook game. 

I'm not sure that this means that Freemasonry is broken, but point to the fact that society may be broken.  

IMO


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## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Are you suggesting, that if Freemasonry banned computers and the internet, that we would see growth?

Print newsletters are expensive and obsolete, many lodges are going to all-electronic delivery of their lodge news.

Like it or not, we live in the internet age. Masonry is in a world of hurt in the USA/Canada. Unless Masons, Lodges, and Grand Lodges can adapt, and adapt their administrative procedures to the new realities, then Masonry will continue to decline, and our lodges will close. 

In my 31 years of Masonry, I have found that many (but not all) Masons are loath to change. It took me months to convince my lodge to get a telephone answering machine. I got some instructional videos from the Grand Lodge of Oklahoma, and some masons in my lodge threw a fit.


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## Bro Darren

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

I made no such suggestion, just making an observation of society today.


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## Bro Darren

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

The decline in members is more complex than a Lodge not having a website or email. The issue is a far more complex social issue on a whole and no one had the secret recipe to fix it.


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## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

The only way to "fix" Masonry in North America, and worldwide, is to make Masonry more relevant to the 21st Century man. The programs, and attitudes of our Grandfather's time, just ain't cutting it. Masonry, if it is to survive, will need fundamental change in our attitudes, and in our programs. We can keep true to our ancient landmarks. In fact, one of the few aspects of Masonry that is achieving growth, is "Traditional Observance" Masonry! 

Some Grand Lodges are "shooting down" TO Masonry. Typical! Anything different, that Masonry has not done before, must be stopped.

Masonry delivered a "product" to men who had served in WW2. Consequently, our numbers swelled when the WW2 generation was demobilized. If we can deliver a "product" to men of this century, we can not only survive, we can prosper.

What is needed is a "holistic" approach. Masonry needs to be examined "top to bottom", and we need to expand on what is good, and excise what is obsolete or what is not working.


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## crono782

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

At the core of it all, I believe it is an attitude problem. Fix that and the product will fix itself.


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## Blake Bowden

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

In Texas it would include self righteous Grand Lodge Officers, egos and politics.


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## dfreybur

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



cemab4y said:


> Masonry peaked in the USA in 1959



And bottomed out approximately now.  Already jurisdiction after jurisdiction have seen increased petition rates and now some jurisdictions are seeing increased memberships.  The sky fell on Chicken Little already.  "He's dead, Jim".  Not an issue to fuss about any more - Find out what the thriving lodges in your geography are doing and emulate them.  There ARE thriving lodges in your geography.

Stuff I would like -

Drop the prohibition against invitations.  A brother should be able to offer a petition to a friend.  The folks who have not noticed that the sky is no longer falling may think this is about reversing the decline.  I'm okay letting them think that.  To me it is about having a less random candidate pool.  Rather than waiting for a random candidate to accidentally find out there are no invitations and a lot of the good ones going to organizations that do invite, we should be there for the good ones.

Drop the prohibition.  This one has already been mentioned but it bears repeating.  Not being able to have a brew after a meeting is ridiculous. Groups of brothers to go to local pubs, I did that after a meeting this week, but we should be able to at our own facility.  Because of how state laws work this already happens in California and probably some other states.  Among other issues this change would make Table Lodge less problematic.  The Imperial level of the Shrine might not like the change as it gives them competition.

Move the balance of power back in favor of the local lodges.  A number of grand lines have become various degrees of problematic over the years.  Out of balanced GMs have used their power of edict to expel brothers without trial.  The result has been anything from personal turmoil for an ejected brother through national disgrace for playing into the hands of Imperial Shrine maneuvering.  By excess GL power we get management by threatening to pull charters.  Take the lesson of European jurisdictions and reduce the power of the grand line.

Get grand lines to focus on chartering lodges.  The push for membership has lodge lines focus oh raising candidates and this is as it should be because without that we don't have another generation.  The same perspective is needed at the next level up.  Give them something to do other than getting in the way.  Give them the glory of chartering new lodges.


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## Brother_Steve

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



cemab4y said:


> One idea, I have been kicking around for some time:
> 
> Every Mason (especially new Masons) should be given a "calling" in the lodge. Immediately upon attaining the MM degree, he should be informed that he is to provide some "sweat equity" to the lodge. A list of callings should be available to all members of the lodge, listing both permanent taskings (widow's committee, cleanup committee), and short-term tasks (replacing carpeting in the lobby). This listing should be posted on the lodge website. New taskings can be assigned as needed (shoveling snow in the winter), and obsolete taskings can be deleted. The list must be "dynamic".
> 
> Each new Mason ( and all of the membership) should be offered an opportunity to select the calling, that he is best suited for. IT guys to the website committee, carpenters to the building upkeep committee,etc. A man who has no particular skill that matches a need, can still serve as an "apprentice", or a "go-fer". If there is no calling that he is interested in, have him come up with a calling of his own imagination. The important thing is to get him involved in something. Inform him that if the calling is not to his liking, he is free to select another calling. If he is unable to serve at all, let him know that it is OK, he can take a calling later. If he wishes to serve in more than one capacity, then that is fine,too.
> 
> The important concept is to let the man know, that the lodge is important _to him_, and that he is important _to the lodge_. His obligation to support Masonry does not begin and end with writing a check for his dues payment. This is an important psychological concept. Many Masons never volunteer their time to a lodge, because they do not know how. They do not know where the needs exist. Some are just too shy, to step up and ask how to help.
> 
> When new Masons (and us old-timers, too) realize that they are needed and they should be involved in the functioning of the lodge, their Masonic experience will be enhanced. Instilling a sense of participation, even if it is just sweeping up the floor, is an important psychological tool. His Masonic experience will be enhanced, and he will be a member, and not just a dues-payer


...within the length of your cabletow. We each join for our own reasons. Just as we do not recruit, we need the men to seek out a task for themselves. I myself asked to be on the ritual and progression committee.

I will agree though that not a lot of members that are able to help actually help around the lodge and it is disenchanting.



Bro Darren said:


> Freemasonry is centuries old and it's proven to last the tests of time. People are so eager to change things to suit "them" these days. If Freemasonry has stood the tests of time, why change it.
> 
> If it's not broken, why fix it?
> 
> Just because something can be done does not mean it must be done!


Masonry is old. Very old indeed. The issue with this line of thought is that one gets stuck in changing masonry itself when what one really means is to change the masonic experience one can have with their lodge.

Look at the invention of the gas powered automobile and I will use my lodge as an example.

My lodge was founded because the lodge just 10 miles south of my downtown area was too far away in the early 1880's. The trains did not run back up to my area after lodge meetings so the men had to stay in town after a meeting leaving their family behind.

My lodge was constituted in 1881 so the men could meet locally without having to travel.

In this instance, change occurred so masonry could flourish in the area yet masonry itself was not altered.


----------



## JJones

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



> Drop the prohibition against invitations. A brother should be able to offer a petition to a friend. The folks who have not noticed that the sky is no longer falling may think this is about reversing the decline. I'm okay letting them think that. To me it is about having a less random candidate pool. Rather than waiting for a random candidate to accidentally find out there are no invitations and a lot of the good ones going to organizations that do invite, we should be there for the good ones.



I'm honestly not keen on this idea.  On the other hand, I don't see why a lodge couldn't/wouldn't invite community leaders or upright gentlemen to their events.  Once they start associating with the members in the right setting then they'd be more likely to ask questions and request a petition if they're interested.  Ofcourse we'd have to actually hold events and serve something besides fried fish. 



> Drop the prohibition. This one has already been mentioned but it bears repeating. Not being able to have a brew after a meeting is ridiculous. Groups of brothers to go to local pubs, I did that after a meeting this week, but we should be able to at our own facility. Because of how state laws work this already happens in California and probably some other states. Among other issues this change would make Table Lodge less problematic. The Imperial level of the Shrine might not like the change as it gives them competition.



Agreed! :beer2:

Ofcourse then we might have to raise our petitioning age back to 21.



> Move the balance of power back in favor of the local lodges. A number of grand lines have become various degrees of problematic over the years. Out of balanced GMs have used their power of edict to expel brothers without trial. The result has been anything from personal turmoil for an ejected brother through national disgrace for playing into the hands of Imperial Shrine maneuvering. By excess GL power we get management by threatening to pull charters. Take the lesson of European jurisdictions and reduce the power of the grand line.



Yes please.  I don't see GL liking this idea however...and wasn't something like this suggested and failed this year?  I think it'd be great if lodges could actually hold their own members to their obligations and take care of problems without GL intervention.




> Get grand lines to focus on chartering lodges. The push for membership has lodge lines focus oh raising candidates and this is as it should be because without that we don't have another generation. The same perspective is needed at the next level up. Give them something to do other than getting in the way. Give them the glory of chartering new lodges.



People always say they want to see Freemasonry grow.  If that's the case then we need to make it easier for new lodges to form so we actually -can- grow.  Yes, we can keep stuffing new members into existing lodges but I think multiplication is what we should be striving for.

My suggestions? 

Allow GL officers to be nominated from the floor if they can't be already.

Adopt standards and practices for the CoR and allow it to be used at a lodge option for the EA degree.

Do the same thing for table lodges and for the appropriate degree  (if any).

Put the info for both practices in the monitor so they aren't completely forgotten over time.  I didn't even realize we allowed table lodges here in Texas until we got rid of them.


----------



## Brock693

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

I see the points of both sides. Your not really saying masonry needs to be changed as far as the rituals and ceremonies. From what I see you are saying a lot of the acts masons do need to be improved or changed. In that aspect I do not disagree we can all work on changing ourselves for the better, after all that is what Freemasonry is all about (Making Good Men Better). We can always stand to revaluate our actions and work towards getting better. Also we can always work on becoming more united in friendship and brotherly love. However I think that would be more of a lodge to lodge issue. I do not agree with adding or subtracting anything with the lodge or masonry itself. It has been the same for hundreds of years and that is what is unique about masonry. It is one of the only things that I know of ever that has remained the same and still works. It is what it is and never needs to be tampered with. Not trying to step on toes just stating my opinion.


----------



## Brock693

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

And as far as not having technology in the lodge. IMO I don't think not having it is a problem. My lodge is old school all the way and our numbers are not affected by it in the least. Even our visitor numbers are good and they do not have a problem with the technology use or lack there of rather.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

There are lodges who keep their records in a ledger book, and write everything down with a ball-point pen. In Kentucky, the grand Lodge mandated that all subordinate lodges adopt a certain software package. This was required, so that all lodges will keep their financial records in a uniform manner. 

The Grand Lodge of Ohio, mandated that all subordinate lodges operate a web page. This move was made, because too many lodges refused to get one. The regulation was passed at their Grand communication, NOT unanimously. But all lodges complied. 

The Grand Lodge of New York has a series of regulations, which establish the type and format of all lodge websites in the entire state. This move was necessary, because lodge websites must be configured as to not present a possible conflict of interest or expose the Grand Lodge to legal liability.

I predict that we are going to see more cases of Grand Lodges, dragging subordinate lodges into the internet age, with some of the lodges kicking and screaming every inch of the way.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

From Doug:  Already jurisdiction after jurisdiction have seen increased petition rates and now some jurisdictions are seeing increased memberships.

----------
What is your source for this statement? The MSANA publishes statistics, provided by the Grand Lodges in the USA/Canada. 

In 2012, about 44 states reported a net loss of membership. The national net loss is reported at -36,950. 

How have you arrived as such a rosy scenario?


----------



## JohnnyFlotsam

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



Bro Darren said:


> Freemasonry grew to over 5,000,000 in the USA without a PC in sight.



And now Masonry is not growing. It is declining. The year is 2013, not 1959 (the peak year for the USA, according to MSANA). The world is different. The men who would be Masons are different. What attracted millions of men to Freemasonry in 1959 will not do so now, and if you think that it's "Masonry" that attracted them, think again. 

I do not see anything but continued decline unless Masonry changes. Certainly, technology isn't going to "save" Masonry, but the necessary changes would have to include modern technology. I can't even pay my dues online? Seriously? 

I have been in a couple of aging, but still grand Scottish Rite auditoriums. We've all seen pictures at least, of some of the most stunning examples which, in their day, employed _state of the art technology_ as part of the experience. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if someone had enough imagination to employ a little bit of that today. 

Now, mind you. I'm not opposed to decline either. I rather hope that it continues so the the Craftsmen who remain can focus on their labor instead of spending their time worrying about membership, aging lodge buildings that have outlived their usefulness, organized charities, etc.


----------



## Brother JC

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

MSANA doesn't record Petitions, Affiliations, or Degrees, so we have no way of viewing growth within the Craft (as opposed to the continued loss of "the glut" membership due to crossing over). While neither I nor Doug have those numbers, I'd be willing to bet that nation-wide we are seeing more new members than previous years.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

MSANA collects the information from the various Grand Lodges. The methodology that the GL's use, is most certainly not uniform. Some Masons belong to more than one lodge, so these men will be counted twice. (I myself, belong to lodges in KY and Mass).  The data that MSANA publishes is subject to statistical anomalies. 

The important thing to do, is to "look past", the data collection techniques, and grasp the overall picture. My home lodge had over 600 members when I was raised in 1982. Today, it has less than 200 members. 

I am interested in how you can analyze this data, and arrive at a conclusion that nationally, we are seeing more new members than previous years. 

All over the USA, lodges are closing (Two lodges that I belonged to in the past are gone). Masonic organizations are having to sell off assets. 

Please tell me, what is the source of your information, which leads you to believe that Masonry is growing (nationally)?


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



dfreybur said:


> And bottomed out approximately now. Already jurisdiction after jurisdiction have seen increased petition rates and now some jurisdictions are seeing increased memberships. The sky fell on Chicken Little already. "He's dead, Jim". Not an issue to fuss about any more - Find out what the thriving lodges in your geography are doing and emulate them. There ARE thriving lodges in your geography.
> 
> *===I agree with most points here. The decline in membership is NOT uniform! Lodges which are adapting to the new demographic realities, and embracing technology are growing. Lodges which deliver a valuable masonic experience are growing.
> 
> *Stuff I would like -
> 
> Drop the prohibition against invitations. A brother should be able to offer a petition to a friend. The folks who have not noticed that the sky is no longer falling may think this is about reversing the decline. I'm okay letting them think that. To me it is about having a less random candidate pool. Rather than waiting for a random candidate to accidentally find out there are no invitations and a lot of the good ones going to organizations that do invite, we should be there for the good ones.
> 
> *===I am in agreement. Men who are opposed to invitation, keep saying "quality over quantity". This ignores the fact, if Masonry could recruit new members, we would have MORE control over the type of men who petition!
> *
> Drop the prohibition. This one has already been mentioned but it bears repeating. Not being able to have a brew after a meeting is ridiculous. Groups of brothers to go to local pubs, I did that after a meeting this week, but we should be able to at our own facility. Because of how state laws work this already happens in California and probably some other states. Among other issues this change would make Table Lodge less problematic. The Imperial level of the Shrine might not like the change as it gives them competition.
> 
> *===I agree! The moderate use of alcoholic beverages is part of our tradition. Only with the disaster of Prohibition, did lodges in the USA ban alcohol. In almost every other country in the world, there is alcohol in lodges.
> *
> Move the balance of power back in favor of the local lodges. A number of grand lines have become various degrees of problematic over the years. Out of balanced GMs have used their power of edict to expel brothers without trial. The result has been anything from personal turmoil for an ejected brother through national disgrace for playing into the hands of Imperial Shrine maneuvering. By excess GL power we get management by threatening to pull charters. Take the lesson of European jurisdictions and reduce the power of the grand line.
> 
> *===I find myself in agreement somewhat. There are cases of Grand Masters running roughshod over indvidual Masons, and acting in a manner that is not in our best interests. Nevertheless, Some degree of direction from Grand Lodges is necessary. Grand Lodges must keep uniformity of ritual in their jurisdiction. GL's must ensure that financial records of all subordinate lodges are kept properly, and that computer software in all lodges is uniform. The task is to find the right "balance" of GL direction and indiivdual lodge autonomy.
> *
> Get grand lines to focus on chartering lodges. The push for membership has lodge lines focus oh raising candidates and this is as it should be because without that we don't have another generation. The same perspective is needed at the next level up. Give them something to do other than getting in the way. Give them the glory of chartering new lodges.



*==I am in agreement. In pre-industrial America, a lodge of more than 100 members was unthinkable. Mega-lodges are the result of urbanization, and consolidation of lodges. 

Grand Lodges may have to impose a "cap" on the number of members, and when a lodge exceeds the "cap", a new lodge must break off and start anew. 

Good ideas! Keep them coming!*


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

From JJones: quote  On the other hand, I don't see why a lodge couldn't/wouldn't invite community leaders or upright gentlemen to their events. Once they start associating with the members in the right setting then they'd be more likely to ask questions and request a petition if they're interested. Ofcourse we'd have to actually hold events and serve something besides fried fish. 
(unquote)

My home lodge in KY does exactly this. Every February, we hold a "George Washington Birthday banquet" . We sometimes hire a G.W. impersonator. 

We do the banquet, and all lodge members may bring guests who are not Masons. We serve the meal, then we have a speech presented about G.W. and Masonry. Then we give the attendees a tour of the building, and distribute literature about Masonry, and how to petition. There is a stack of petition forms prominently displayed. 

The result usually is, a slew of new petitions! 

Other lodges can emulate this idea. I believe that once men are exposed to Masonry, and can latch into the ideas and concepts of the Craft, that petitions and new members will be the result.


----------



## Bro Darren

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Here is a little extract from this month edition of "engage" UGL AF&AM Victoria (Freemasons Victoria) that I thought you may be interested in

*December Quarterly Communication*
The past eight Quarterly Communication of Grand Lodge have
been live streamed, enabling members who are unable to attend,
to view the event. Freemasons Victoria has established this viewing
option so that members can either log in from the comfort of their
own home, or log on at their nearest Masonic Centre and watch
the event with other members. Live at selected Masonic centres
(see your district coordinator).
We would very much appreciate your attendance at the Dallas
Brooks Centre on Wednesday 18 December, however if you choose
to log on, simply use this link:


http://www.freemasonsvic.net.au/Video/live-streaming-andwebcasts/

For those interested in the full edition
https://app.box.com/s/4nus427tus7k8f65zxwx


----------



## Brother JC

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Charles, you're comparing bottom-line numbers to 30 years ago, which includes the greatest death-rate in the history of Freemasonry. I'm comparing this years petitions to last year's, and the year before that, and I see growth. Pardon me for having faith in my fraternity.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



trysquare said:


> Charles, you're comparing bottom-line numbers to 30 years ago, which includes the greatest death-rate in the history of Freemasonry. I'm comparing this years petitions to last year's, and the year before that, and I see growth. Pardon me for having faith in my fraternity.



Let's make sure we are on the same page here. I am delighted to see that California is one of the few states with an increase in membership. Here is the report for 2012:


CALIFORNIA 
(2011) 57,250 
(2012) 63,546 net gain:
+6,296




Regardless of your success, the national net decline was -29.964 in 2012. 

Whatever it is that California is doing, should be emulated by other states. 

I can definetly see growth in California (and some other states). But I do not see national growth. Where do you see this national growth? 

If you wish to have faith in the fraternity, then wonderful. But in addition to faith, there is EFFORT. Grand Lodges, Lodges, and Masons need to see that the overall decline is a problem, and take steps to reduce the decline, and turn it around. 

"If you do nothing, you get nothing"- Aung San Suu Kyi, Nobel Prize winner, 20 years under house arrest.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

When someone asks me, why are you interested in reversing the decline, and getting Masonry growing again, I always reply:

I am concerned more about the death rate, in Masonry.

They ask: "What is the death rate for Masons"?

My reply: 100% , same as for everyone .


----------



## Zack

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

I say again(and again and again) we do not have a membership problem.  We have a retention problem.
In my jurisdiction we lose more members to NPD then to death.  We can make Masons but fail to keep them.
I'd bet your jurisdiction is the same.

CEM resurrects this periodically across the forums.  Second act; Masonic license plates.  That and a Facebook page will solve the problem.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

This is an important topic, and needs to be discussed. I am a statistician, (formerly with the US census bureau). I look at these statistics, and see a decline in our absolute numbers. Other men see these numbers, and say everything is fine. No problem. 

I agree that in some (not all) jurisdictions, the losses due to demits/resignations/suspension is outpacing the losses due to deaths. Is it better to lose money from your right pocket or your left pocket? The numbers continue to decline, year after year. 

Stanching the loss, and possibly reversing it, requires acknowledging that there is a problem. Most masons are not convinced that there is a problem. 

Once the problem is acknowledged, then the cause of the problem must be identified. If the loss is due to demit/resignations/suspensions, then the Craft needs to be examined, and find out the cause(s). 

Then the remedy can be identified. I believe sincerely, that if the Masonic experience provided VALUE to the Mason, then the man would be less likely to drop out. If a man gets no value for his participation, he will cease to participate.


----------



## Brother JC

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Reread my original comment, Charles, I specifically said "I believe." I also said I don't have the numbers, because no one (MSANA included) publishes them. My main point of contention is that we don't have broad-spectrum statistics, and without them we can't identify the problem.


----------



## Brother JC

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Brother Martin and I have taken this slightly off-track, so I'll add my thoughts on things other than just membership numbers...

I agree that we have a retention problem, but in my eyes the thing that needs to change the most is *participation*. When someone is asked how many members show up to a Communication on average, the most constant reply seems to be "ten-percent." It's true in my NM lodges as well, though one has seen more than 50% of the membership lately. That lodge has changed a lot in the last five years, and it shows.
You can bring in all the new members you want, but if no one participates, your lodge will fall.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

I understand. The statistics published by MSANA are not uniformly collected by the grand lodges, and there is no way of knowing (from this data) who resigned and who died. 

Here is a terrific article, on this subject. It is a few years old, but still relevant. 

http://www.freemasoninformation.com/2009/06/there’s-a-hole-in-our-bucket/


----------



## dfreybur

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



cemab4y said:


> Let's make sure we are on the same page here. I am delighted to see that California is one of the few states with an increase in membership. Here is the report for 2012:
> 
> 
> CALIFORNIA
> (2011) 57,250 (2012) 63,546 net gain:+6,296
> 
> Regardless of your success, the national net decline was -29.964 in 2012.



Membership is a trailing indicator.  It tells what happened decades ago.  The issue is NOW not decades ago.

What is needed is a leading indicator not a trailing indicator.  There are in fact a leading indicators available.  They are initiations and raisings.  Those are the numbers to graph.  Look up the initiations and raisings in your jurisdiction to see what has been happening.  A few years ago I compared every decade in Illinois history plus the most recent decade.  Both initiations and raisings saw a downward trend that bottomed out well over a decade ago.  Both initiations and raisings are now in an upward trend.

To have better data I suggest calculating a 5 year rolling average and graph that per year.  Do it for initiations, raisings and membership.  Do it for your jurisdiction and every jurisdiction you have data for.  At least California and Texas already see increasing membership - the trailing indicator of what already happened long ago.  Currently Illinois sees some years with increasing membership and some years with declining membership - we have had an increasing trend of initiations and raisings long enough that the membership is bottoming out approximately now.

It is the leading indicators that predict, so they are the ones that need to be used for projections.  The leading indicators are very clear that all 3 of my jurisdictions California, Illinois and Texas have a growing trend of new members.  When I hear the anecdotal evidence of lodges elsewhere struggling to keep their degree teams functioning to keep up with the load, I conclude the trend is up across most US jurisdictions.

When predicting the future use the leading indicators.  When analyzing the past use the trailing indicators.  What far too many brothers are doing here is using the trailing indicator to predict the future and ignoring the leading indicators.



> Whatever it is that California is doing, should be emulated by other states.



... and Texas and the other jurisdictions where the trailing indicator already shows growth.  The two jurisdictions have very different practices and policies by the way.  What is common is they are magnet states for young adults - They are riding a wave of generational change not of their own creation.  Both have been very good at accepting new brothers of the new generation.

Also those jurisdictions where the leading indicators show growth.  That's a *lot* more jurisdictions than the few with membership growth.



> Where do you see this national growth?



In the predictive aka leading indicators.

[/QUOTE]If you wish to have faith in the fraternity, then wonderful.[/QUOTE]

I also have faith in the right numbers - initiations and raising trends - and in the wave of generational trends that has young men petitioning in droves.  Industry might call them Millennials.  I think we will end up calling them the Life Balance generation.


----------



## Browncoat

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

There is a lot of speculation about the cause and effects of the membership decline and how to fix it. The most obvious being the generation gap (few Baby Boomer Masons) and the fact that Masonry has so much more to compete with these days.

1. Embrace technology. It must be done if Freemasonry is going to survive in the 21st century. The Craft has endured this long because it has changed and adapted to the times and must continue to do so now more than ever.

2. A Purpose. I read a lot of complaints about boredom...about reading minutes and just going through the motions. Being a member for the sole sake of paying dues is a silly premise, so Lodges who offer no benefits should just die out. Seeking MORE members isn't the answer, BETTER members is.

Sent From My Freemasonry Mobile App


----------



## Bro Darren

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

One must also take into consideration the "Baby Boomers" (Aussie Name for the those born just after WW2) are getting to that age now where they may not be able to afford Dues, or unable to attend meetings so they stop going and resign. This generation was the largest boost in population for most western countries and they are getting "long in the tooth". 

I wonder if the Fraternity take up % rate today is the same when you compare the population % rates of today and yesteryear.. Just wondering!


----------



## Zack

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



Bro Darren said:


> I wonder if the Fraternity take up % rate today is the same when you compare the population % rates of today and yesteryear.. Just wondering!



I read somewhere that the % are about the same.  I'll try to find it.
I think all this worry about numbers is a "tempest in a teapot".  The explosion of members after WW2 did Freemasonry no favors.  It is the chasing of numbers that has got us where we are.  Masonry was never intended to be for every man.  IMO,


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Current US population is 317,237,657 (Source US Census bureau). The US population is increasing. And it has been increasing since 1959. (even before then)

The numbers of US Masons has been decreasing since 1959 (Peak year).

If you can view this data, and infer that the percentage of the US population who are masons then and now, is the same, then you are wrong.


----------



## Bro Darren

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

I am talking about % rate increase bed % rate of death due to historic figures. I'm not trying to say that anyone is "wrong" just trying to look at the millions of possible causes of your concern and there is so many. Not just Technology.


----------



## JohnnyFlotsam

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



trysquare said:


> While neither I nor Doug have those numbers, I'd be willing to bet that nation-wide we are seeing more new members than previous years.


I'd agree, but the part you're leaving out is the even higher numbers of attrition. It is highly variable, from state to state, but overall, the membership is still in decline.


----------



## Zack

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



cemab4y said:


> Current US population is 317,237,657 (Source US Census bureau). The US population is increasing. And it has been increasing since 1959. (even before then)
> 
> The numbers of US Masons has been decreasing since 1959 (Peak year).
> 
> If you can view this data, and infer that the percentage of the US population who are masons then and now, is the same, then you are wrong.



I wasn't clear on the point I was trying to make.  I'll try it again.
The percentage of the population that were Masons *prior *to the great influx of members post WW2 is about the same as todays percentage.

I don't believe Masonry was ever intended to become what it has become;  grandiose buildings, a bloated bureauocracy, and *public* charities that are harder and harder to sustain.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

You can get the numbers of Masons since about 1922 from the MSANA website. You can get the US population numbers, from the US Census Bureau (my former employer) at their website. 

I tend to agree, that if the men who set up the first Grand Lodge in 1717, could see modern, 21st Century Freemasonry, they would not recognize it. 

I do not see this as a problem. Masonry is a "work in progress", since we are not a religion, we change and adapt to the realities of the world, and the demographics.


----------



## Zack

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



cemab4y said:


> I do not see this as a problem. Masonry is a "work in progress", since we are not a religion, we change and adapt to the realities of the world, and the demographics.



If you don't see this as the problem then, poof!, there is no problem.
If we can adapt to the realities then perhaps the reality is, that we go back to what Freemasonry, imo, was meant to be.
Bigger is not necessarily better and Less is sometime more.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Let me clarify my antecedents. You said " I don't believe Masonry was ever intended to become what it has become; grandiose buildings, a bloated bureauocracy, and *public* charities that are harder and harder to sustain. " (end)

I tend to agree that the statements made in this quote are probably correct. No one at the Goose and Gridiron tavern in 1717, could have envisioned the George Washington national Masonic Memorial in Alexandria VA. They would never have envisioned the various Grand Lodge offices in the USA, and they would never have conceived such charitable and humanitarian activities as the Shriner's hospitals for crippled and burned children. 

The fact that these things were inconceivable in 1717, are (to me) not a problem. 

Are you advocating that USA Freemasonry abandon the George Washington national Masonic memorial? And the fabulous buildings like the Philadephia masonic temple?

Should we eliminate our Grand Lodges? And close down the hospitals? how about terminating all of the scholarships that enable deserving students to attend college? 

How about closing down the 100 speech and language disorder clinics, run by the Scottish Rite (SJ)? 

Shut down the Grotto's program for dentistry for handicapped children?

Stop the York Rite from sending deserving Christian pastors to Israel for all-expenses paid trips?

Eliminate all of the charities supported by Freemasonry and the appendant bodies?

Do you really think that Masonry can go back to being a "gentleman's club" , and not being the fabulous fraternity it is today?


----------



## Zack

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



cemab4y said:


> Let me clarify my antecedents. You said " I don't believe Masonry was ever intended to become what it has become; grandiose buildings, a bloated bureauocracy, and *public* charities that are harder and harder to sustain. " (end)
> 
> I tend to agree that the statements made in this quote are probably correct. No one at the Goose and Gridiron tavern in 1717, could have envisioned the George Washington national Masonic Memorial in Alexandria VA. They would never have envisioned the various Grand Lodge offices in the USA, and they would never have conceived such charitable and humanitarian activities as the Shriner's hospitals for crippled and burned children.
> 
> The fact that these things were inconceivable in 1717, are (to me) not a problem.
> 
> Are you advocating that USA Freemasonry abandon the George Washington national Masonic memorial? And the fabulous buildings like the Philadephia masonic temple?
> 
> Should we eliminate our Grand Lodges? And close down the hospitals? how about terminating all of the scholarships that enable deserving students to attend college?
> 
> How about closing down the 100 speech and language disorder clinics, run by the Scottish Rite (SJ)?
> 
> Shut down the Grotto's program for dentistry for handicapped children?
> 
> Stop the York Rite from sending deserving Christian pastors to Israel for all-expenses paid trips?
> 
> Eliminate all of the charities supported by Freemasonry and the appendant bodies?
> 
> Do you really think that Masonry can go back to being a "gentleman's club" , and not being the fabulous fraternity it is today?



I am not advocating any of those things.  The point you seem to miss is, all the things you mentioned above were not what Masonry was originally about.  But because of those things membership numbers are important(to some) in order to keep financing these things.  They will go away eventually because the numbers will not support them.  Charity was not the only reason some of these things came about.  Some of it was to curry favor with the public, particularly after the Morgan affair.

And if Masonry is the "fabulous fraternity", why are you so dissatisfied with it?
I'm done.  You and I have been down this road before and I don't intend to travel it again.  Merry Christmas.


----------



## Bro Darren

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Whats an interesting twist on the whole technology side of this discussion is in my local area there has been a massive move away from the church. Over the last 10 years, the church's in my area decided to push into the technology age by introducing all these wonderful gadgets. The push for "Service App's" on phone to high tech service publishing and live streaming. We have seen church's where 10 years ago had a regular attendance of 500 shrink to 75 because people didn't like the way that the focus of the service was taken off God and placed on gadgets. The church i use to attend every sunday went from 300 to 60 in just 5 years because they decided to focus on improving their technology.

We are a Brotherhood with core teachings and values - Society is evolving with a HUGE push to drop any core moral value and adapt new socially accepted practices. Masonry and its core teachings is not broken, society is and if you start changing too much internally, Masonry will then become very broken. 

We can't just throw out the "dead wood" because they won't adapt to new technologies and to do so goes 100% against the grain and core roots of the Craft itself. I joined Masonry for what it stands for today and centuries before, a Brotherhood based on the 3 pillars and I may be new, but I'm pretty sure that those 3 pillars dont involve tossing out dead wood, but encouraging them to stay. They have a wealth of knowledge and experience to pass down to the younger generations as has Masonry since it began. 

I am not against technology in Lodges and Grand Lodges, but the lack of is not the sole purpose of the decline in numbers.


----------



## Browncoat

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

No one is advocating for changing core values.

Offering online dues payments, meeting minutes, a blog, website, and updated phone and email contact lists are things any Lodge can benefit from. Here in Ohio at least, every Lodge must maintain a website...but most of them are crap that serve no real purpose.

Sent From My Freemasonry Mobile App


----------



## Bro Darren

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



Browncoat said:


> No one is advocating for changing core values.
> 
> Offering online dues payments, meeting minutes, a blog, website, and updated phone and email contact lists are things any Lodge can benefit from. Here in Ohio at least, every Lodge must maintain a website...but most of them are crap that serve no real purpose.
> 
> Sent From My Freemasonry Mobile App



I get that, but that's hardly going to "fix" anything.


----------



## Browncoat

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



Bro Darren said:


> I get that, but that's hardly going to "fix" anything.



Technology would go a long way towards "fixing" a lot of issues that currently plague local Lodges and improve communication with their respective Grand Lodges.

Its pointless to list them all, because if you're unable to see it @ the 10,000ft level, details aren't going to help.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



Zack said:


> I am not advocating any of those things. The point you seem to miss is, all the things you mentioned above were not what Masonry was originally about.
> 
> --*I do not "miss" that at all. I know that when Speculative Masonry was organized in 1717, they had no idea of the Shriner's hospitals. The men who set up the first grand Lodge, would not recognize the various charitable and humanitarian activities underway today. *
> 
> 
> 
> But because of those things membership numbers are important(to some) in order to keep financing these things.
> 
> *Not necessarily. The Shriner's hospitals are financed through donations (from non-Masons), and from interest earned on securities. Although the charitable/humanitarian activities are operated by Masonic (and appendant) organizations, this does not mean that they are 100% financed by Masons. *
> 
> 
> They will go away eventually because the numbers will not support them.
> 
> *Not necessarily. Alternative financing can be arranged for some of all of them. The Masonic home of Kentucky receives alternate financing from non-Masonic sources. *
> 
> 
> 
> Charity was not the only reason some of these things came about.
> 
> *Possibly. This is not a problem for me. *
> 
> Some of it was to curry favor with the public, particularly after the Morgan affair.
> 
> And if Masonry is the "fabulous fraternity", why are you so dissatisfied with it?
> 
> *I am NOT dissatisfied with Freemasonry. If I were dissatisfied, I would just ask for a demit, and walk away. I am concerned (justifiably) about the direction that Freemasonry ( and the appendants) is/are taking. When I joined the Shrine in 1989, there were 990,000 Shriners. Now there are less than 400,000 Shriners.
> 
> Freemasons have a choice. We can manage the changes that are underway (loss of membership, lodges closing). Or we can let the changes manage us.
> 
> Masonry is much different than when it was established in 1717. Masonic lodges now have indoor plumbing, carpeting, electric lights, and air conditioning. We picked up on technology, and our Masonic experience is improved and enhanced. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm done. You and I have been down this road before and I don't intend to travel it again. Merry Christmas.



*If you do not wish to address the problems and challenges facing our Craft in the 21st Century, that is your privilege. 

I personally, am delighted that Masons are facing up to the new realities which face our Craft. *


----------



## K3vin

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Reading through the comments in several threads, including this one, there is a recurring concern of declining membership.

I spent 10 years volunteering on several fire departments over the years and the lack of participation in many of those organizations has been becoming more of a challenge in recent years.

I would venture to say that the advent and use of technology in society has increased people's efficiency in scheduling activities, to the point that people no longer have "Extra Time" to participate in clubs, fraternities, and service organizations. While the total hours worked per person per week is similar to the last 50 years; more spouses are working, we are commuting further, and household duties have become shared responsibilities due to both spouses working. More and more, our time available for service to others has been eroded by these necessities of modern life. Those who do not make a conscious choice to make time for groups like ours see it as a superfluous expenditure of their already taxed schedules.

If we want more good men to join with us we will have to find ways to show the world we are worth their time.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



Browncoat said:


> No one is advocating for changing core values.
> 
> Offering online dues payments, meeting minutes, a blog, website, and updated phone and email contact lists are things any Lodge can benefit from. Here in Ohio at least, every Lodge must maintain a website...but most of them are crap that serve no real purpose.
> 
> Sent From My Freemasonry Mobile App



I have said repeatedly, that we can make more efficient and proper use of technology, and still keep true to our ancient landmarks. No one is advocating an abandonment of our historical underpinnings. 

The internet is just ideal for Freemasonry. BUT- Freemasonry  needs to embrace the technology properly. Here is an excellent article (a few years old, but still relevant)   http://www.freemasoninformation.com/2011/01/freemasonry-and-the-internet

It is not enough for a Grand Lodge to mandate that every lodge in its jurisdiction have a web site. The Grand Lodge needs to provide direction, and guidance on how to set it up properly. We will have to see a grand lodge officer of "Grand Webmaster", and the Grand Lodge needs to have a committee of internet-savvy volunteers, to advise and guide the subordinate lodges. Some lodge websites are terrific, some are mediocre, some are an embarrassment. I cringe when I visit a website and there is information that is two years old.


----------



## JJones

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



K3vin said:


> Reading through the comments in several threads, including this one, there is a recurring concern of declining membership.
> 
> I spent 10 years volunteering on several fire departments over the years and the lack of participation in many of those organizations has been becoming more of a challenge in recent years.
> 
> I would venture to say that the advent and use of technology in society has increased people's efficiency in scheduling activities, to the point that people no longer have "Extra Time" to participate in clubs, fraternities, and service organizations. While the total hours worked per person per week is similar to the last 50 years; more spouses are working, we are commuting further, and household duties have become shared responsibilities due to both spouses working. More and more, our time available for service to others has been eroded by these necessities of modern life. Those who do not make a conscious choice to make time for groups like ours see it as a superfluous expenditure of their already taxed schedules.
> 
> If we want more good men to join with us we will have to find ways to show the world we are worth their time.



I agree and disagree.  People don't have any more or less time than they did several decades ago.  I know here in rural Texas we once had farmers than tended the Earth from sunup to sundown but they still made it a priority to get to lodge.  I don't think it's a matter of time so much as it is a matter of priorities.  People who say they don't have time for lodge probably still find time to spend hours in front of the T.V. each week.

The part I really do agree with is that we have to look for ways to make visiting lodge worth each brother's time.  I personally think having programs/speakers when possible is a great start.  Better meals and actual masonic education (which is different from memorization) are things to consider as well.  

Don't get me wrong, there's not a magic wand that works for every lodge but I think offering Freemasonry at meetings might be something new worth trying.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



K3vin said:


> Reading through the comments in several threads, including this one, there is a recurring concern of declining membership.
> 
> I spent 10 years volunteering on several fire departments over the years and the lack of participation in many of those organizations has been becoming more of a challenge in recent years.
> 
> I would venture to say that the advent and use of technology in society has increased people's efficiency in scheduling activities, to the point that people no longer have "Extra Time" to participate in clubs, fraternities, and service organizations. While the total hours worked per person per week is similar to the last 50 years; more spouses are working, we are commuting further, and household duties have become shared responsibilities due to both spouses working. More and more, our time available for service to others has been eroded by these necessities of modern life. Those who do not make a conscious choice to make time for groups like ours see it as a superfluous expenditure of their already taxed schedules.
> 
> If we want more good men to join with us we will have to find ways to show the world we are worth their time.



There is a great deal of truth expressed here by K3vin. With greater choices for leisure time, there is more demand for "quality' in our leisure and recreational activities. 

I have said repeatedly, that Masonry must offer VALUE to the individual Mason. Most (not all) stated meetings are boring: Read the minutes, go over the bills, read the sick list, have some coffee, go home. Why should a young man spend several hours of his free time, when he can stay home and watch cable TV? 

Our entire Masonic experience: meetings, degree work, charitable/humanitarian service, must offer VALUE to the individual man. Masonry needs to deliver a "product" to the Mason, that he will choose to participate in. 

Technology is not a "cure-all", that will make Masonry exciting and valuable again. But we ignore the potential that internet, electronic payment of dues, electronic newsletters, etc. at our peril.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



Bro Darren said:


> Whats an interesting twist on the whole technology side of this discussion is in my local area there has been a massive move away from the church. Over the last 10 years, the church's in my area decided to push into the technology age by introducing all these wonderful gadgets. The push for "Service App's" on phone to high tech service publishing and live streaming. We have seen church's where 10 years ago had a regular attendance of 500 shrink to 75 because people didn't like the way that the focus of the service was taken off God and placed on gadgets. The church i use to attend every sunday went from 300 to 60 in just 5 years because they decided to focus on improving their technology.
> 
> We are a Brotherhood with core teachings and values - Society is evolving with a HUGE push to drop any core moral value and adapt new socially accepted practices. Masonry and its core teachings is not broken, society is and if you start changing too much internally, Masonry will then become very broken.
> 
> We can't just throw out the "dead wood" because they won't adapt to new technologies and to do so goes 100% against the grain and core roots of the Craft itself. I joined Masonry for what it stands for today and centuries before, a Brotherhood based on the 3 pillars and I may be new, but I'm pretty sure that those 3 pillars dont involve tossing out dead wood, but encouraging them to stay. They have a wealth of knowledge and experience to pass down to the younger generations as has Masonry since it began.
> 
> I am not against technology in Lodges and Grand Lodges, but the lack of is not the sole purpose of the decline in numbers.



You cannot extrapolate the experiences of a religious institution, directly into Freemasonry. If a church loses membership over a period of years, there were possibly other contributing factors, besides the internet which contributed to the loss. 

I attended a lodge in Arlington VA, which gained 17 (seventeen) new petitioners in one month, all due to their internet page. More and more, here in the USA, the first knock at the west gate, is an electronic knock. Many lodges, including Fredericksburg #4 (Where George Washington was made a Mason) have cancelled their print newsletters, and gone to 100% electronic news delivery. 

Many churches in the USA are utilizing electronic technology in their administrative work. One church in Texas, installed ATM's in their church, so that members could contribute to the church using their credit cards. Contributions into the electronic collection plate, went up.


----------



## Bro Darren

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Masonry is not about how many new members you can get signed up, it's keeping them and teaching them and that comes from mentors with personal friendships, not websites.


----------



## samelevel

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Everything in Masonry has served our brotherhood well..., I don't know what could be done to "change" when nothing really needs to be changed.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

This is the same attitude that I have seen for many years. Far too many Masons are convinced that everything is just fine, and there are no problems. But that is not the case. Membership is down, and continuing down. Lodges and grand Lodges are very slow to adopt new technologies. Administrative procedures are antiquated, and need to be brought up into the 21st Century. 

We can keep true to our ancient landmarks, and still move Masonry into the 21st Century.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

I wonder how many Masons, who are convinced that everything is just fine in the Craft, have recently attended a stated meeting of their lodge? Meetings (and the overall Masonic experience), are going to have to provide VALUE, else members will spend their leisure time elsewhere.


----------



## Browncoat

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



cemab4y said:


> Meetings (and the overall Masonic experience), are going to have to provide VALUE, else members will spend their leisure time elsewhere.



Agreed 100%.

Men have always had outside competition for their leisure time and there are still 24 hours in a day. Those are the two constants over the last 50 years since the membership peak and today. So what has changed and how can Masonry adapt to meet those changes?

Society has definitely changed. The nuclear family is largely a thing of the past, where dad went to work and mom stays home to bake cookies. Community is no longer a priority because we now have the entire world at our fingertips. Meeting up with the fellas can now be done via Facebook or email, so the idea of a local boys only club seems archaic.

The phrase "going to the Lodge" used to carry a lot of weight. It was a sense of belonging and importance, but those days are gone also. Its not enough to just belong for the sake of belonging anymore. We can do all that digitally now.

Freemasonry will have to strike a balance between holding on to tradition and staying relevant if it will succeed in keeping current members interested while also attracting new ones.

Sent From My Freemasonry Mobile App


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Double thumbs up, Browncoat! When I suggest that Masonry make some changes in the administrative procedures, some Masons go "ballistic". The world we live in, is not "Leave it to Beaver". I cherish our Craft. I want to enjoy it in my retirement years, when I will have more time to devote to Freemasonry. No one advocates changing our ancient landmarks.


----------



## Bro Darren

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

The math is simple, but some are so hellbent on their own opinion that they refuse to look at the basics... In the USA  what is the most populated Generation inside Freemasonry? Is it the 20-30, 30-40, 40-50, 50-60, or 60+ - at a guess im going to say 60+

What is the average take up age for new applicants? Lets say its 30-40

Now Lets go back to 30 years before the 1959 5M plus members, so 1929. What was the birth rate (%) in 1929 and what was the rate (%) of those took up Masonry?
60-70 years ago, what was the birth rate (%) and what rate (%) of those took up Masonry?
30-40 years ago, what was the birth rate (%) and what rate (%) of those are taking up Masonry?
This information is critical when analyzing membership rise/fall trends and can't be excluded or dismissed.

At a rough guess, yes i don't have exact numbers, but anyone can take a rough guess so:
If the 30-40's have a similar take up rate (%) as did the 60+ generation but have a lower birthrate, this equates to less members joining. Numbers = A (applicants) 
If the 60+'s are the biggest generation in Masonry how many are leaving due to money issues, death or illness issues?  Numbers = D (departing) 
A - D is always going to give you less members each year and this is very noticeable du8e to having such a large number of members that are 60+'s departing Masonry



But, hey its only Math and statistics.  Now let me be a little blunt and direct question to you cemab4y instead of just an open debate - EVERY time someone has a difference of opinion or a different of view you attack them, call them wrong and suggest that their opinion is deluded and has no value to the conversation whatsoever. 

The great thing about open discussions is sharing idea's and concept in a respectful way and in "Brotherly" love, not questioning their integrity or value of opinion.  I have said many time that I have no personal issue with IT helping in administration but some are not comfortable with it. Just because someone is not comfortable with IT does not give you or anyone the right to even consider throwing them out of the Fraternity as dead wood - They should be encouraged to stay as they have SO much rich experience and education to share and guide us all. Every Brother deserves our open respect and I find the idea of casting them away and insult to their many many years of service in ALL aspects of Freemasonry. 




cemab4y said:


> This is the same attitude that I have seen for many years. Far too many Masons are convinced that everything is just fine, and there are no problems. But that is not the case. Membership is down, and continuing down. Lodges and grand Lodges are very slow to adopt new technologies. Administrative procedures are antiquated, and need to be brought up into the 21st Century.
> 
> We can keep true to our ancient landmarks, and still move Masonry into the 21st Century.



So Far too many Masons (most maybe) are ALL wrong and your opinion is completely right?
Do you honestly believe that a computer and a website will fix everything with retaining memberships?? 




cemab4y said:


> I wonder how many Masons, who are convinced that everything is just fine in the Craft, have recently attended a stated meeting of their lodge? Meetings (and the overall Masonic experience), are going to have to provide VALUE, else members will spend their leisure time elsewhere.



So its not about technology now, its what VALUE "you" are not getting from Masonry. I'm a little lost as to what your concern is, because it seems that you yourself are a little unsure.

Firstly you blame IT and then admit thats IT is not the main cause for a decline in numbers but its the lack of VALUE that meetings fail to provide.. Lets go back to the main cause for decline in numbers and what age group they come from?  Im pretty sure that a 60+ person is not leaving because their lodge provides no value or has no website for that matter.. the same value has kept them as active members for 30+ years.

Masonry is Australia declined in membership numbers but then plateaued to its current figure. We too have an unbalanced age gap in the lodge and we will see a further drop as the aged fall out.. But i see a lot of young and vibrate members that are joining Lodges, Lodges that do not have websites "yet" or an electronic means of paying dues. These young members are joining for many reasons and I can assure you that it has nothing to do with a Lodge having a website. IT will naturally come in but as the old saying says - "NOTHING happens quickly in Freemasonry" - This is a famous saying and its famous for a reason.

Cemab4y, Its awesome to see the passion that you have for the survival Freemasonry but where is the love for all Brothers, regardless of opinion. A Brother is a Brother and we are all equal and we should all feel that our opinions count without being slammed because we share differences of opinions. Membership numbers are an issue for concern, but please dont be so rash to blame Masonry and claim that its broken without taking in all aspects of the discussion. If we all took a real look, accept all the facts and then study them, we will see where to move next. Those in Grand Lodges are slow to move as its far better to move slowly than rush in blinded to all the facts.

But, as was said before by someone else - It does not matter what anyone else thinks or says as some just refuse to even ponder or consider an opinion or discussion point that differs from their own. These different opinions or viewpoints are just throw aside and the Brothers are dismissed for being blind to the 1 point of view and based on that I am stepping out of this discussion and wish you all the very best with it.

With all respect, to ALL the contributors, I pass on my love and well wishes!


----------



## K3vin

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

My first post in this thread, by no means, had any intent to convey that Masonry does not have enough value in and of itself. 

The point in my post was that we are not the only type of institution that has seen declining membership over the last 50 years. 

My point is that we need to find ways of showing the public the value that we do posses as Masons, and by demonstrating that character we show people we are worth their time. 

Kevin


----------



## Browncoat

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

You have repeatedly pushed your own agenda in this thread as well, Bro Darren, and armed with no more facts than anyone else. 



Sent From My Freemasonry Mobile App


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to his own facts"- Daniel Patrick Moynihan (not a freemason). I have no problem with a brother presenting his opinions. I do have a problem with Masons who play "ostrich", and refuse to see that there is a problem.

The problems which Masonry is facing are many and varied. The solutions (if we choose to take them), are also many and varied. I do not claim, that technology alone, is some kind of "magic bullet" that will fix everything. Far from it. 

I do claim, that a more efficient use of technology is part of the solution. 

Masonry (and the appendants) need to take a "holistic" approach, and examine all of the problems which are facing masonry. And- show no cowardice in implementing any solution, which may work. 

Example: I lived in Pennsylvania, 2000-2001. During the time that I resided there, I checked and learned that there were no "daylight lodges" anywhere in the state (at that time). Almost all states are experiencing a "graying" of the Masonic population, and that the average age of the membership is advancing. With the larger number of retired Masons, and the number of men who cannot get out at night, the need for "daylight" lodges is obvious. 

Establishing lodges, where men can attend during the daylight hours, is NOT moving away from our ancient landmarks. It is more of an "adaptation", than a change. 

Technology is PART of the solution. I would like to see grand Masters recording a monthly address to the membership by video, and then distributing the video to all members via the internet. Grand Lodges have published print newsletters for many years, moving to a "video newsletter", is an adaptation.

I would love for the moderate use of alcohol, to return to our lodges. The USA is the only country in the world where lodges are "dry". 

I live in the area with the worst commute to work in the entire USA. I would love to see degree work on the weekends, because getting to lodge after two hours in the car, is difficult for many men. 

Some Masons, myself included, say that instead of focusing on raw numbers, and just getting Masonry growing again, we should focus on quality not quantity. There is wisdom in this policy. But if we only rely on the random man, who stumbles across Masonry, have we not pitched quality out the window? If we were to permit recruiting, and inviting men of quality into our gentle Craft, we would have 100% control over the type of man who petitions! If you want quality men, you will have to invite quality men.


----------



## hidonmesahj

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

I believe the fact that anyone can go online & look up the "secrets" of masonry kind of takes away from its former allure. Also, candidates are being black balled or turned down bc of very minor, very old issues that everyone except a computer database has forgotten. If u won't accept the technology to push the craft foward, at least don't use it to stop the numbers from growing. 

Sent from my HTC One SV using My Freemasonry HD mobile app


----------



## Browncoat

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



hidonmesahj said:


> I believe the fact that anyone can go online & look up the "secrets" of masonry kind of takes away from its former allure.



No, not really. Whole books have been published divulging the "secrets" of Freemasonry for hundreds of years.

Sent From My Freemasonry Mobile App


----------



## JohnnyFlotsam

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



cemab4y said:


> *Do you really think that Masonry can go back to being a "gentleman's club" *, and not being the fabulous fraternity it is today?


Maybe, maybe not, but I really wish it would. Mind, you by "gentleman's club" I take it mean an organization that exists to take good men and make them better. I define good men as those with (among other things) the ability and the desire to improve. The evidence is clear that there is precious little of that happening in most Lodges and appendant bodies. 

Philanthropy is all well and good, so are big magnificent buildings. Truly. But if those things get in the way of the actual mission they need to go away. And believe you me, I have seen with my own eyes how the focus on a noble cause like the SR's speech disorder clinics has taken the focus away from the real reason that the Rite exists. 

Masons are instructed to be charitable. Period. Nowhere are we taught that our organizations must serve as the conduit of that charity.


----------



## crono782

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



JohnnyFlotsam said:


> Masons are instructed to be charitable. Period. Nowhere are we taught that our organizations must serve as the conduit of that charity.


Yes. I don't even see a problem with us being a conduit for charity. But when it transitions from being secondary in focus to primary, it has gotten out of scope.


----------



## dfreybur

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



Bro Darren said:


> The math is simple, but some are so hellbent on their own opinion that they refuse to look at the basics... In the USA  what is the most populated Generation inside Freemasonry? Is it the 20-30, 30-40, 40-50, 50-60, or 60+ - at a guess im going to say 60+
> 
> What is the average take up age for new applicants? Lets say its 30-40
> 
> Now Lets go back to 30 years before the 1959 5M plus members, so 1929. What was the birth rate (%) in 1929 and what was the rate (%) of those took up Masonry?
> 60-70 years ago, what was the birth rate (%) and what rate (%) of those took up Masonry?
> 30-40 years ago, what was the birth rate (%) and what rate (%) of those are taking up Masonry?
> This information is critical when analyzing membership rise/fall trends and can't be excluded or dismissed.
> 
> At a rough guess, yes i don't have exact numbers, but anyone can take a rough guess so:
> If the 30-40's have a similar take up rate (%) as did the 60+ generation but have a lower birthrate, this equates to less members joining. Numbers = A (applicants)
> If the 60+'s are the biggest generation in Masonry how many are leaving due to money issues, death or illness issues?  Numbers = D (departing)
> A - D is always going to give you less members each year and this is very noticeable du8e to having such a large number of members that are 60+'s departing Masonry
> 
> But, hey its only Math and statistics.



In fact I have done exactly this numerical analysis for Illinois.  I'm an engineer and a numbers guy - I want the data and I want to base my actions on the data.  I went to the Illinois Lodge of Research library and spent an evening there looking through the Proceedings book for every decade since the jurisdiction was founded, plus for every year of the first decade and every year of the most recent decade.  I recorded the numbers for membership, gains, losses, initiations, passings and raisings.  Then I graphed the numbers and looked for meaningful patterns in the numbers.  That's why I stress that total membership is a trailing indicator and thus only "predicts the past".  What predicts the future is the leading indicator of either initiations or raisings.

Trailing indicators predict the past.  Leading indicators predict the future.  If you've ever heard these terms in business reports, employment reports and stock market reports, that's what they mean.  There are indicators that trail and there are indicators that lead the economy.

I graphed the membership number.  I graphed the initiations and raisings.  For both graphs I divided by the population of the state from the Census (Available on line) so the graph showed percentage of the population.  The shape of the membership curve matched the curve for the initiations and raisings but the membership curve lagged about 25-30 years.  The shape of the initiations and raisings curve matched the membership curve but the raisings curve lead about 25-30 years.

The trend in raisings NOW very clearly tells us what the trend in membership will be 25-30 years in the future.  Right now, the trend in raisings is up and has been up for a decade, more in some jurisdictions.

Fuss about membership all you want, you're looking at data that predicts what happened 25-30 years ago in raisings.  Look to raisings and you will see the predictor of membership 25-30 in the future.  I don't know about you but I have come to understand I can't do anything about what happened 25-30 years ago but I can work towards changing what will happen 25-30 years into the future.

I did this analysis.  I went to the library and dug through the pre-Civil-War books.  Any brother in any state can do the same at the Research lodge library in their own state.  I urge folks in different states to do the same.  Remember to get the state population from the Census and divide.  The reason I tabulated by decade is the Census reports by decade so I had matching dates since Illinois was a territory not a state.

Part of my research before petitioning was to search for this type of demographic data.  At the time I found an analysis for New Hampshire going back even further.

In Illinois what I saw were bumps in raisings after each war and matching bumps in membership 25-30 years after each war.  In Illinois the size of the bump matched the size of the war.  Illinois existed for the Blackhawk Wars, the Civil War, the Spanish-American War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, DW1 and DW2.  The only war that did not see a bump in raisings was Vietnam and sure enough that was the least popular war in our history.

Both WWI and WWII involved a larger percentage of the population than any war but the Civil War, plus they were about 30 years apart.  The bump of raisings after WWI resulted in a membership peak during WWII that built on the bump in raisings after WWII.  Those two bumps are why we have seen membership in decline ever since.  But raisings are up again.

Retention - This is KEY.  It helps little to raise droves only to have them leave.

Value - This is KEY.  it has to be worth going to lodge.  I go to lodge for the fellowship.  Even if we never do more than pay the bills it was worth the trip to me to be among the brothers sharing the fellowship.  In this my status is shared by many of the long term regulars at lodge, but we are a small minority among the brothers.  Most need something else.

What else - That is the QUESTION.  The answer has differed across time.  We were a mystical order.  We were a drinking and dining club.  We were a mutual help society.  We were a charity fund raising engine.  We were a social club with events like bowling.  As the generations passed the focus of most of Masonry has changed but some of all of those have remained.  Ask the ten most recently raised brothers of your lodge if those the added value they expected to receive at lodge.

Then go do what it is they expected!  And better still get them involved in doing it.  Because they will get out of Masonry what they put into Masonry just like the rest of us do and did.  So it may as well be what they want, not what we want or what we think they want.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

One change I would love to see: Almost everyone agrees that our "retention" rate is unacceptable. We lose more members to resignations/demits/suspensions, than we do to deaths. Solution- modify the retention rate.

We need to work with each new Mason. After the man is raised, we need to have him attend classes, where he can learn about Masonic history, and his place in the Craft. Each new Mason, needs to feel that he is important to Masonry, and that he is appreciated. 

He needs to be given an opportunity to serve in an officer's capacity. He needs to be given opportunity to learn ritual, and how to participate in ritual. 

We need to visit his wife, and inform her about what her husband can expect to contribute to the Craft, and how he (and his family) will benefit.

In short, we need to work all of our new Masons, and help them realize that Masonry will provide him with VALUE for his participation. If we hit these men "upstream", they will stay with us, for a solid Masonic career.


----------



## Brother JC

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

I agree, with one major difference... I feel it should begin sooner, after he is Initiated. By the time a Brother is Raised he should be a solid member of the Lodge.


----------



## Txmason

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

I would like to see the ability to fundraise more than twice a year. Hold an open house (Mass does this ) you invite the public to your the lodge and ask questions. 

Also the ability to wear our aprons if we participate in parades and have a banner too. Also allow for more public relations in the newspapers.


----------



## dfreybur

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



Txmason said:


> Also the ability to wear our aprons if we participate in parades and have a banner too. Also allow for more public relations in the newspapers.



Aren't apron marches allowed by dispensation from the GM in Texas?  They are done to the annual meeting at the Alamo at least so it has to be allowed.

One of my lodges marches in our aprons at the town 4th of July parade each year complete with our dispensation sent by email.  Given how rare apron marches were, I organized it the first year, went through the dispensation process and documented it so it's now forwarding an email to the Gr Sec office to get it.  Now that it's every year our email is expected and rubber stamped by whoever it is the MW GM designates to do them.  We've gotten either a petition or a brother returning to activity from the march each year so far.


----------



## cacarter

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

My lodge in Forney was granted dispensation to wear jewels and aprons while on the lodge's float in the homecoming parade. From the sounds of it, it worked great and was a positive public image for the lodge.


----------



## Brother JC

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

I've been in several processions to a house of worship on St. John's Day; there are always a broad spectrum of reactions to that.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



Txmason said:


> I would like to see the ability to fundraise more than twice a year. Hold an open house (Mass does this ) you invite the public to your the lodge and ask questions.
> 
> Also the ability to wear our aprons if we participate in parades and have a banner too. Also allow for more public relations in the newspapers.



There may be a loophole for your fund-raising. 

Set up a "Square and Compass Club" . Incorporate as a non-profit corporation. State in your articles of incorporation, that your organization is NOT affiliated with the Grand lodge in your state. That way you have a "wall of separation", and the Grand lodge will keep their hands off of your club.

Use the S&C club, to hold fundraisers. Take the proceeds, and donate them to your lodge.


----------



## Brother JC

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Unfortunately, any "club" in Texas that requires you to be a Mason, also requires recognition from GLTX. Attempting your S&C Club without due process would cause a world of grief.


----------



## dfreybur

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



trysquare said:


> Unfortunately, any "club" in Texas that requires you to be a Mason, also requires recognition from GLTX. Attempting your S&C Club without due process would cause a world of grief.



I was about to respond "That's how it should be.  Any organization that requires Masonic membership needs to be approved by GL."  Then it occurred to me that many lodges started out as S&C clubs in their geography until they reached critical mass to ask for a charter and form a lodge.  It is historically a slam-dunk to ask the MW GM for dispensation to form a S&C club with that intention and to be approved?  Not just a Texas question as I've seen the issue happen in other states.  Informal clubs without written membership seem to be a way around this but it seems a hack.


----------



## dfreybur

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*



cemab4y said:


> And the fabulous buildings like the Philadephia masonic temple?  Should we eliminate our Grand Lodges?



There's a reason our brethren in previous generations funded endowments to run their buildings and projects, why they limited their buildings and projects to sizes that were covered by endowments.  Until some point they knew that membership was transient and that they had to build for the ages.  Then membership grew without bounds and the order started taking on buildings and projects that required constant cash flow to maintain.  And sure enough membership declined.

On the one hand I have seen the data on initiations and raisings and compared that data to membership.  I know that the increase in raisings now correlates to increased membership in a few decades.  What large resources we can hold on to during the inflection we will be able to afford after membership has turned.

On the other hand I have seen a lodge loose a building because it could not afford to maintain it.  One time I saw that we absorbed that lodge and sold their building to a growing church.  One time I saw that we were the absorbed lodge and we sold our building to a bank.  Also I have seen lodges that own buildings that have tenants that generate a positive cash flow for the building.

My take away - If a building does not generate a positive cash flow from its tenants that building will eventually cost more than the lodge can afford and it will become a problem.  If your lodge can't afford a building that can generate a positive cash flow then your lodge can't afford a building and should not buy.  The problem is cash flow positive buildings cost 5-10 times the price of knock up buildings and most brothers want to build for now not for the ages.

My take away - If a project can not pay for itself through a properly managed trust fund endowment then that project must come with a definite end date because eventually the lodge won't be able to afford it.

Desires and realities can and do clash.  Do I "want" to keep the list you wrote?  Yes.  Do I understand the financial consequences and realize that some of those will not survive the time it takes for our increased raisings to lead to increased membership and thus increase budgets?  Yes.

There are lines in the second degree lecture that are moved to the Monitor in Texas.  They are about buildings and projects that did not survive the ages, but Masonry nonetheless survived.  We like the projects of the past.  But what we can afford the trust fund endowment for is what we can in fact afford when we build for the ages.

I've seen Moose and VFW lodges that owned strip malls with their lodge rooms in back.  That needs to be our model.  I've read that the Shrine Hospitals were built with trust funds but in time more hospitals were built than could be paid for by the endowment.  The edifice that is over extended is the one that collapses.  The edifice that has balance in its proportions is the one that is still standing centuries later.  Our ancient brethren in the days of the cathedral building guilds build a number of cathedrals that collapses and that no longer exist.  It's a lesson to be learned.


----------



## JJones

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Its been my understanding that a lodge can hold as many fundraisers as they like.  We are only limited to two raffles a year and that has to do with state law.


----------



## cemab4y

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Do NOT set your Square and Compasses Club up as a "Masonic" organization. Do NOT restrict the membership to Masons. In your articles of incorporation, state clearly that "membership is restricted to individuals who are interested in Freemasonry, and Masonic history". If your club is set up along these lines, and you state that your organization is not affiliated with any Masonic organization, then you are protected. Get a local attorney to advise you. 

In the state of New Hampshire, nearly all lodges close down during the summer months. S&C clubs enable the people who are "interested" in Freemasonry to socialize, have barbecues, and family events, during the summer (and year round).


----------



## Txmason

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Thank you brothers for your input and advice.


----------



## polmjonz

*Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*

Deleted by poster.
Sent From My Freemasonry Mobile App


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## cemab4y

BUMP!!  Let's get this discussion going again.


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## Morris

cemab4y said:


> *Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*
> 
> 
> 
> There may be a loophole for your fund-raising.
> 
> Set up a "Square and Compass Club" . Incorporate as a non-profit corporation. State in your articles of incorporation, that your organization is NOT affiliated with the Grand lodge in your state. That way you have a "wall of separation", and the Grand lodge will keep their hands off of your club.
> 
> Use the S&C club, to hold fundraisers. Take the proceeds, and donate them to your lodge.


We had a charity corp (dyslexia) and that portion of the building sold alcohol after meetings. It was our mini wall of separation. 


Jeff


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## dfreybur

JMorris said:


> We had a charity corp (dyslexia) and that portion of the building sold alcohol after meetings. It was our mini wall of separation.



Sold?  The state laws are different state to state on that.  In general to sell per drink requires a liquor license of some sort.  Some states allow non-distilled to be available at a meal that is paid for as long as no money is charged for the alcohol but the details are wildly different state to state.  That's in addition to any restrictions in the jurisdiction's regulations.

On the one hand I think American Masonry needs to get over its teetotaler stance.  On the other hand I viewed it as an advantage that unlike the Elks or Legion the lodge does not have a liquor license and bar.  To me the better solution is what the state allows at a paid-for meal, with jurisdiction rules moved to match the state rules.


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## Companion Joe

I don't see American Masonry getting over the teetotaler stance, especially in the South, in our lifetime. It wasn't until about 20 years ago in my state that you couldn't even work somewhere that sold alcohol. I'm sure it wasn't changed even then because of a desire to do it; it was probably changed when every grocery store and chain restaurant started selling beer. At some point before my time (70s or 80s) apparently a member of my Lodge came into ownership of a liquor store. By the state code, there was no choice but to have a trial and expel him. I don't know any more details than that. Now, the state code says you can't be involved in illegal alcohol or have a place of business where alcohol causes it to become disreputable. I see that as a gray area. Who decides what is disreputable? To me, owning a liquor store isn't disreputable. To many members of my Lodge, it would be.

In our state code, drunkenness is No. 2 on the list of Masonic offenses. Abusing/neglecting your wife or children is listed No. 25. Go figure.

Therefore, I don't see it changing anytime soon.


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## cemab4y

I would LOVE to see the moderate use of alcohol return to our lodge functions. What USA masons do not realize, is that nearly every lodge and Grand Lodge in the world, permits alcohol in the lodge. Look at our neighbor, Canada, and see how they do it!

Until the disaster of national prohibition, alcohol was served in our lodges. In George Washington's time (he owned a distillery, by the way), when the lodge broke for refreshments, they passed a jug around! 

We can return to our roots, and have distilled beverages in our lodges. We can control ourselves, and act like adults, and see that none pervert the purpose into intemperance or excess.


----------



## Morris

dfreybur said:


> Sold?  The state laws are different state to state on that.  In general to sell per drink requires a liquor license of some sort.  Some states allow non-distilled to be available at a meal that is paid for as long as no money is charged for the alcohol but the details are wildly different state to state.  That's in addition to any restrictions in the jurisdiction's regulations.
> 
> On the one hand I think American Masonry needs to get over its teetotaler stance.  On the other hand I viewed it as an advantage that unlike the Elks or Legion the lodge does not have a liquor license and bar.  To me the better solution is what the state allows at a paid-for meal, with jurisdiction rules moved to match the state rules.


Exchanged is a better word I guess. "Bob" would purchase a cooler of beer and we would pay him back individually. It was a nice time. We would open that portion of the building for one hour after meetings. It had a pool table/dart board and "bobs" cooler. 

It would always be open minus cooler if you wanted to bring your kids to play or just swing by. 


Jeff


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## Brother JC

Don't forget that there are lodges in dry counties. Regardless of what Grand Lodge says, there won't be even a glass of wine at dinner in some places.


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## MarkR

Minnesota just prohibits alcohol in the actual Lodge room.  Elsewhere in the building is okay.  We bring our own beverages and have a couple in our "Rough Ashlar Lounge" downstairs after meetings.  We also have a wine-tasting annually as a charity fundraiser.


----------



## Morris

MarkR said:


> Minnesota just prohibits alcohol in the actual Lodge room.  Elsewhere in the building is okay.  We bring our own beverages and have a couple in our "Rough Ashlar Lounge" downstairs after meetings.  We also have a wine-tasting annually as a charity fundraiser.


Put Minnesota on my to travel list!


Jeff


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## BryanMaloney

Something other than business at stated meetings?


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## cemab4y

I would LOVE to see our stated meetings, be more interesting. I have been to so many stated meetings, and it is open the lodge, read the sick list, pay the bills, recognize the past masters, close the lodge and go home. And then members are surprised that attendance is down.

Maryland has a tradition of having excellent programs at their lodge meetings. I have been to meetings, where they have civil-war reenactors in full costume, and I went to a meeting where they had an FBI agent give a talk. 

I would love for masonic meetings to have speakers deliver talks on Masonic and non-Masonic topics, that the members would find interesting.


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## Brother JC

Our stated (business) meeting is exactly that, and we make no apologies about it. We encourage visitors to come the next week when our focus is education, illumination, and a formal dining experience.


----------



## Companion Joe

I agree with trysquare. Our stated business meetings are for the business of the Lodge. Occasionally there are opportunities for other things, but our plate is pretty full with communications, reading petitions, balloting, scheduling, etc.

So far this year, we have opened the Lodge 18 times; 7 of those have been stated business meetings. The other 11 have been for degree work. I think we a pretty good job of covering all our bases and proving a Masonic experience.


----------



## Levelhead

I like to see ecerything stay as origional as possible. Once you start to bend and flex ritual it goes nowhere good fast.


----------



## Pointwithinacircle

Levelhead said:


> I like to see ecerything stay as origional as possible. Once you start to bend and flex ritual it goes nowhere good fast.


I would like a clarification on this point.  Are you referring to the words spoken, where the emphasis is placed, the accompanying gestures?  I am not sure to what you are referring.


----------



## cemab4y

I don't believe that anyone is suggesting that the rituals be altered. The general purpose of this thread, is to discuss what can be changed on the administrative side of Freemasonry. Should we expand our internet presence? Should we reach out to inactive masons? Should our meetings be more interesting?


----------



## Brother JC

Levelhead said:


> I like to see ecerything stay as origional as possible. Once you start to bend and flex ritual it goes nowhere good fast.


Those aren't the type of changes we mean, we're talking the parts between ritual; education, discussion, presentations.


----------



## Levelhead

Well i was at a EA degree and the guy who did the lecture did it with a slideshow and ive seen a couple EA lectures and it really sunk in with the slide show. 

Im not a big fan of technology in the lodge but the slideshow was easy to follow.


----------



## MarkR

Levelhead said:


> Well i was at a EA degree and the guy who did the lecture did it with a slideshow and ive seen a couple EA lectures and it really sunk in with the slide show.
> 
> Im not a big fan of technology in the lodge but the slideshow was easy to follow.


It was a technological advancement when they stopped drawing on the floor with chalk and mopping up afterward, and started using pre-painted cloth tracing boards that they could roll out to do the lectures. Those became referred to as carpets.  They were eventually put up on easels, then came the "magic lantern" projector with hand-painted slides (my lodge still has a couple of them), eventually 35mm slides in a carousel projector, and now PowerPoint.  Yes, different people learn differently, and having visuals to go with the lectures increases the likelihood of reaching the different members of the audience.


----------



## cemab4y

I have seen the slideshow, for the MM degree, and it was terrific. I obtained some videos from the GL of Oklahoma. I suggested that we view them at my lodge, and some members went ballistic. "Masonry has survived for hundreds of years without video". And blah-blah-blah.

In the EA degree, we are charged to "improve ourselves in Masonry", and we are also charged to study the seven liberal arts and sciences. I believe that Masons should adopt the tools and methodologies that are available for self-improvement and academic study.

I would like to see a whole series of on-line video courses, so that Masons can improve their understanding of the Craft.

I cannot stress too strongly, that I am not interested in changing _MASONRY_.  I only want to see adaptations and more use of modern technology in the lodge. Increased use of the internet, will help. Altering and updating some of the administrative processes, will be great.

Holding more degree work on the weekends, is not a change. It will enable men who cannot attend on the weeknights, though. Enabling members to pay their dues on line, is not a change in ritual.

As our membership cohort ages, there will be more men who cannot get out at night. I would be delighted to see more daylight lodges.


----------



## Morris

I wrote to our secretary once about paying online. I told him that I pay $15 a month to be a part of a sports website. I've never cancelled it in three years!  It's so easy to just say it's only $15. I believe our dues could be set up similarly. 


Jeff


----------



## cemab4y

Being able to pay dues on line, is a change that has been long in coming. The Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania has enabled every PA mason to pay dues online. The Grand Lodge made an arrangement with Payliance.  (See www.payliance.com). Masons can arrange for their dues to be paid online.


----------



## Companion Joe

If I may ask, why is paying dues online so important? I will start by saying that every bill my household pays is done either online or via bank draft. We don't mail any bills. But, what's the problem with when you get your dues notice, take a check or cash to next stated meeting and hand it to the secretary? I couldn't tell you when or if I've ever mailed my dues in 20 years as a Mason. I always just give it to the secretary and instruct him not to mail my dues cards. Give them to me at the next meeting so it saves the lodge a stamp.

Granted, in my case, Lodge, Chapter, Council, and Commandery all meet in one place, and one man is the secretary for all. We get one dues notice.


----------



## BryanMaloney

Masonry has existed without electricity for longer than it has existed with electricity. Why do lodge buildings have electricity?


----------



## cemab4y

There are several ways to address your question. In the larger sense, it really makes no difference if you pay your dues online, or hand a check to your lodge secretary, or send a check through the US Mail, or pay in cash. As long as your dues are paid.

But- there are several other issues that we should look at. I belong to lodges in Kentucky and Massachusetts. I reside in Virginia, and I do a lot of international work (Last ten years in Iraq/Afghanistan). Handing a check to my lodge secretary is somewhat impractical ,when I am in a tent in Afghanistan.

With the aging of our membership cohort, we are going to have more Masons residing in Florida and Arizona, and belonging to lodges in different states. These men will not be able to visit their home lodge, and pay in person.

When it comes to implementing new technology, we need to "step back", and see how it will affect our membership now, and in the future. On-line payments also will permit members to break up their dues in installments, if they choose to.

There is an old Indian saying, about "do not criticize a man, until you walk a mile in his moccasins ."


----------



## Companion Joe

I agree with and see your point about living out of state from your lodge, but honestly that never entered my mind. I belong to one lodge, and that's the one in which I was raised and I attend, so I have no frame of reference there.

I don't think it's a good idea or practical to have monthly dues. That's just an opinion and observation.

I just got back from the Summer York Rite Assembly in Maggie Valley, N.C. Today's key note speaker made a great point. We need to stop making accommodations in Masonry for everyone. We need to make it mean something again. If someone wants to be a Mason, make sure they are worthy. If they want to be a Mason, then they want to practice Masonry, not dictate how Masonry needs to change to better fit them.

As for Bryan's straw man, I was thinking about the _Masonic_ experience. By his logic, I can see everyone now ... "That apron lecture means so much more now that I can pay my dues on line."


----------



## BryanMaloney

Companion Joe said:


> As for Bryan's straw man, I was thinking about the _Masonic_ experience. By his logic, I can see everyone now ... "That apron lecture means so much more now that I can pay my dues on line."



As for Joe's straw man, I can see everyone now: "That apron lecture means nothing now that we can pay dues on line. Let's just throw it out."


----------



## Companion Joe

I asked a sincere question seeking information. To me, paying dues on line has never been on my radar. To others, it seems like a big deal. I was curious as to why. Unlike your nonsensical reply, cemab4y offered some valid points that I had never considered. I acknowledge such and consider myself enlightened. 

On this, and many other threads, get over yourself.


----------



## BryanMaloney

No matter how much people like claiming that others bring up straw men, nobody ever likes it when their own straw men are pointed out to be straw men. Ever notice that?


----------



## Morris

Companion Joe said:


> If I may ask, why is paying dues online so important? .



Not sure if you were asking me but I was deployed to Afghanistan. If we had this type of system it would be automatic payment, I could have made an attempt, or my wife could have paid it for me. Thats why I posed the question. I would imagine a ton of people travel for work making this to a small degree important. 


Jeff


----------



## Companion Joe

JMorris said:


> Not sure if you were asking me but I was deployed to Afghanistan. If we had this type of system it would be automatic payment, I could have made an attempt, or my wife could have paid it for me. Thats why I posed the question. I would imagine a ton of people travel for work making this to a small degree important.
> 
> 
> Jeff


I was asking anyone in general. It seemed more than one person brought it up, so I genuinely wanted to know.


----------



## Companion Joe

BryanMaloney said:


> No matter how much people like claiming that others bring up straw men, nobody ever likes it when their own straw men are pointed out to be straw men. Ever notice that?



Most people, I feel, understand I wasn't making a straw man or any other kind of argument. My response was in reply to the ridiculousness of your post. I asked a legitimate question. You came back with a snide response. I rebutted in kind.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

Companion Joe said:


> I was asking anyone in general. It seemed more than one person brought it up, so I genuinely wanted to know.


My guess is that people increasingly use the computer to organize their lives.  Allowing people to pay their dues using the same tool that they use to pay all their other obligations seems like a reasonable course of action.


----------



## BryanMaloney

"All change is bad" is as foolish as "All change is good".


----------



## Warrior1256

JohnnyFlotsam said:


> Is it change to go from failing to fulfill our obligation to actually fulfilling it? Maybe we're splitting semantic hairs here, but I'd say yes. It is definitely a change, in our behavior, bringing us more in line with the "intent".
> 
> As for change for change's sake, that's seldom a good idea. But when the status quo is failing to achieve the desired results, Einstein tells us that change is the only sane thing to do.
> 
> And I don't think anyone is suggesting abandoning any worthy traditions. In fact, there are a lot of traditions that have fallen by the wayside (dramatic degree work, music in Lodge, caring for our widows) that deserve to be dusted off and brought back into regular use. In other words, _change_.


I agree. Old traditions need to be kept while some operating procedures need changed such as instituting some methods to bring more young people into the Craft.


----------



## cemab4y

BUMP!! I would like to see some more discussion of this important topic.


----------



## Warrior1256

cemab4y said:


> BUMP!! I would like to see some more discussion of this important topic.


Absolutely agree!


----------



## cemab4y

Gentlemen, We are going to see changes forced upon us. With the aging of our membership cohort, and the closing of more smaller lodges, change is inevitable. How best we cope with these changes, or if we let change control us, will show what type of men we really are.


----------



## JJones

Well, the fraternity is going to change but it's still in the air if the changes will be brought on by our actions or inactions.

As a fraternity we need to come to terms with this.  Lodge demographics are changing and this will result in changes over time.  I don't think this has to be a bad thing in the long term, although it's tragic that the changing demographics are partially being caused by older generations of brethren passing away...now that is saddening.

I feel we need to ask ourselves exactly where the borders of our circle of influences (cable-tows) rest at.  We can't change things outside our circle of influence but we can work on ourselves first and our lodges second and in doing so we will make the lodge experience more enjoyable.


----------



## AndreAshlar

Brothers showing the same zeal for the VSL as they do for the S&C


----------



## Rick Carver

I want to know about the plans to rule the world.


----------



## BroBook

I would like to see the landmarks adhered to, 14 in particular . SMIB


----------



## Glen Cook

BroBook said:


> I would like to see the landmarks adhered to, 14 in particular . SMIB


Not all jurisdictions use the same landmarks or even  claim landmarks. To which one do you refer?


----------



## Mosaic

AndreAshlar said:


> Brothers showing the same zeal for the VSL as they do for the S&C



I 2nd that.


----------



## BroBook

Glen Cook said:


> Not all jurisdictions use the same landmarks or even  claim landmarks. To which one do you refer?


The right of all regular masons to visit other lodges when traveling


----------



## cemab4y

I have visited lodges in 14 states, WashDC, and five foreign countries. I have never been refused entry to any regular lodge. As long as you are a member of a Grand Lodge which is in communication with the Mother Grand Lodge in England, and the lodge you wish to visit is also in communications with the Mother Grand Lodge, you should have no problem.


----------



## jwardl

Rick Carver said:


> I want to know about the plans to rule the world.


lol
Check your mail. Make sure you have the secret decoder ring on you.


----------



## AndreAshlar

Uninhibited recognition and cross visitation privileges by EVERY regular lodge of ALL lodges descended from African Lodge #459!


----------



## Glen Cook

BroBook said:


> The right of all regular masons to visit other lodges when traveling


That is not a right in all jurisdictions. In Utah it is a privilege, subject to the objection of any Lodge member.


----------



## cemab4y

I have discussed the possibility of a "Masonic Bill of Rights". I would like to see certain rights set down in the constitution and by-laws of all Grand Lodges. In my home lodge, (and in most lodges), normally the entire body of the lodge is responsible to make sure that all present are Master Masons in good standing.

The WM has the final say, though, in who may visit his lodge.


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> I have discussed the possibility of a "Masonic Bill of Rights". I would like to see certain rights set down in the constitution and by-laws of all Grand Lodges. In my home lodge, (and in most lodges), normally the entire body of the lodge is responsible to make sure that all present are Master Masons in good standing.
> 
> The WM has the final say, though, in who may visit his lodge.



Each GL of which I am aware already does declare a Mason's rights.  In Utah, it includes the right to object to a visitor.  It appears you wish to abrogate the right of the brethren.   That is in derogation of their rights, not in support of their rights.

Further, for a WM to have the final say in who visits a Lodge is contrary to Utah Masonic law and, again, is in derogation of the rights of the brethren.

There is also a certain arrogance in declaring what one thinks best for another jurisdiction.


----------



## promason

just keep on good work..just keep continue turn good better..love everyone..love..blessings..bye..


----------



## promason

just keep on good work..just keep continue turn good better..love everyone..love..blessings..bye..


----------



## promason

more work..more brotherhood..more triumph..love fam..love..bye..


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## cemab4y

Glen Cook said:


> Each GL of which I am aware already does declare a Mason's rights.  In Utah, it includes the right to object to a visitor.  It appears you wish to abrogate the right of the brethren.   That is in derogation of their rights, not in support of their rights.
> 
> Further, for a WM to have the final say in who visits a Lodge is contrary to Utah Masonic law and, again, is in derogation of the rights of the breh.thren.
> 
> There is also a certain arrogance in declaring what one thinks best for another jurisdiction.


------------

If you think that each GL in the USA declares a Mason's rights, then you are wrong, wrong, wrong. There are GL's all overt the USA, which regularly abuse the membership. The outrageous actions of the GL of Arkansas, are one of the most egregious examples. The MWPHGL of Arkansas designed an official Masonic license plate and it was approved by the Arkansas Dept of Motor Vehicles. All it says is "Freemason". Without any proper authority, the GL of Arkansas, declared that any Arkansas Mason which purchased and displayed this license plate would be expelled from Masonry.

The GM of the GL of Texas, illegally and without authority, shut down the "Widow's Sons" motorcycle club of Texas. When asked why he closed the club, he replied "Because I can".

and over and over again.

I am not an expert on the regulations of the GL of Utah. In KY, where I am a member, any Mason can object to a visitor, if there is reasonable cause that the visitor may not be a MM in good standing. Of course, all Masons should be on guard to ensure that all present are MM's in good standing. The tyler is charged with this responsibility, but all MMs share it.


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> ------------
> 
> If you think that each GL in the USA declares a Mason's rights, then you are wrong, wrong, wrong. There are GL's all overt the USA, which regularly abuse the membership.
> ......
> 
> I am not an expert on the regulations of the GL of Utah. In KY, where I am a member, any Mason can object to a visitor, if there is reasonable cause that the visitor may not be a MM in good standing. Of course, all Masons should be on guard to ensure that all present are MM's in good standing. The tyler is charged with this responsibility, but all MMs share it.



Two different concepts: declaring rights in the Jurisdiction's documents and complying with those rights. The United States has a Bill of Rights, and yet those rights are at times violated.  Two different issues.  Please identify which jurisdictions do not declare rights in their laws.

In Utah, Section 3-9-1 states: A Master Mason in good standing may be extended the privilege to visit any Lodge in this Jurisdiction, subject to the right of any member to object to his admission as a visitor.


----------



## dfreybur

cemab4y said:


> ... any Mason can object to a visitor ...



That's why it can't be a right.  Every brother has the right to attend his own lodge.  No other member may object.  That's why the ballot should be unanimous.  Every brother has the privilege to attend other lodges.  A member there is allowed to object.

It blows to be the WM when you have to approach a brother at the tiler's door and tell him he may not attend because a member objects.  It blows even when the reason is known to all and not objectionable.  Consider a destitute brother.  The lodge arranged transportation to his lodge so they can take care of him.  Instead of going home he becomes a hanger-on locally.  Several months later he can wear out his welcome if there's more to the story than that, but that part of the story is a valid reason.


----------



## cemab4y

dfreybur said:


> That's why it can't be a right.  Every brother has the right to attend his own lodge.  No other member may object.  That's why the ballot should be unanimous.  Every brother has the privilege to attend other lodges.  A member there is allowed to object.
> 
> It blows to be the WM when you have to approach a brother at the tiler's door and tell him he may not attend because a member objects.  It blows even when the reason is known to all and not objectionable.  Consider a destitute brother.  The lodge arranged transportation to his lodge so they can take care of him.  Instead of going home he becomes a hanger-on locally.  Several months later he can wear out his welcome if there's more to the story than that, but that part of the story is a valid reason.



You are not stating the entirety of my comment. I said quote - any Mason can object to a visitor, if there is reasonable cause that the visitor may not be a MM in good standing.- end quote.

If a Mason is attending a lodge, and he has a reasonable cause to believe that a man attempting to visit the lodge is not a MM in good standing, then he has the duty to stand up and object. No mason can exclude a visitor, without just cause. Although the Tyler is charged with warding off all cowans and eavesdroppers, and the WM has the final say on who can visit his lodge, ALL masons assembled must be satisfied that all attendees, whether members of the lodge, or visitors, are true and lawful brother MMs in good standing. So mote it be.


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## cemab4y

“I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.” 
― Thomas Jefferson

This statement could easily apply to Freemasonry.


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## cemab4y

I have been a Mason for 33 years, and yesterday I heard something that I have never heard before. I heard a radio announcement (WNEW Baltimore MD), and the ad was sponsored by the Grand Lodge of Maryland. The ad was a promo for Freemasonry, and it went on to say that many famous men were Masons, and that YOU should consider membership. The ad mentioned the GL of Maryland website:

http://www.askamarylandmason.com

I think this is terrific! I hope that other Grand Lodges follow their example!


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> You are not stating the entirety of my comment. I said quote - any Mason can object to a visitor, if there is reasonable cause that the visitor may not be a MM in good standing.- end quote.
> 
> If a Mason is attending a lodge, and he has a reasonable cause to believe that a man attempting to visit the lodge is not a MM in good standing, then he has the duty to stand up and object. No mason can exclude a visitor, without just cause. Although the Tyler is charged with warding off all cowans and eavesdroppers, and the WM has the final say on who can visit his lodge, ALL masons assembled must be satisfied that all attendees, whether members of the lodge, or visitors, are true and lawful brother MMs in good standing. So mote it be.



Or, in some jurisdictions, for no cause, as it is not a right of a Mason in good standing to visit in some jurisdictions.​


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## coachn

JamestheJust said:


> It has always struck me as peculiar that Grand Lodges have not set up working groups to go in search of the genuine secrets.
> 
> How can an institution exist forever waiting for some future day that may restore its core knowledge?
> 
> Surely there will be a generation that will say:  We have waited long enough!  Perhaps this is that generation.


You mean that there truly are actual genuine secrets, missing core knowledge and actual interest?


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## pointwithinacircle2

James and John are having a discussion, an example of the Hermetic principle of polarity if there ever was one.  I shouldn't reply to this thread, but I just can't stop myself.  First James said:


JamestheJust said:


> How can an institution exist forever waiting for some future day that may restore its core knowledge?


Well, there is this one huge institution that promises that it will reveal all knowledge to you after you are dead, and they seem to be doing OK.  (I guess the secret that I am going to hell was revealed pretty well by that comment)

And then John says:


coachn said:


> You mean that there truly are actual genuine secrets, missing core knowledge and actual interest?


Well, If you consider Masonry to be, at the very least, a classroom for character building or, at the very most, a pathway to spiritual enlightenment then, yes, the core knowledge seems to be missing from the Lodgeroom.

Yes, the symbols are there.  But basic communication theory teaches us that a symbol is not the thing it symbolizes.  Most Masons can give you a quote when asked about a specific symbol, but how many can tell you what it means in their own words?   As for actual interest in the above, well, look for the dis-satisfied Masons, they seem to be the ones who are actually interested.

Well that's enough irritating people and making enemies for one morning, time to get a second cup of coffee.


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## crono782

I think it's entirely truth that many of the original meanings of our teachings have been lost to time. I really like the quote cemab4y uses above. Though out symbols remain static and the spirit behind them, the nuances of the meaning need not necessarily remain constants. I think it's entirely plausible for the symbolism to evolve depending on the ebb and flow of the state of man's spiritual awareness of the age.


----------



## dfreybur

cemab4y said:


> The ad was a promo for Freemasonry, and it went on to say that many famous men were Masons, and that YOU should consider membership.



When I was in line the first time I tried to read as much as possible of the old GL publications in the secretary's office.  In a dusty old box was a manual on advertizing for Masonry with photo ready artwork that could be pasted into newspaper ads.  The box was several decades old.

Plus sa change, plus sa meme chose.


----------



## cemab4y

Most Grand Lodges either forbid any advertising or open solicitation of new members. I  have been told, by men I respect, that The GL of Kentucky "doesn't like" the "2 B 1 ASK1" bumper sticker, and it should not be used. I believe that openly advertising on radio (and other media), is a major development (at least in some jurisdictions). I see you list three states, TX,IL,CA. Do any of these states permit open recruiting and advertising?


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## AndreAshlar

Older brothers who aren't willing to impart their masonic  knowledge on newer brothers in the Craft.  Seemingly in an effort to circumvent a loss of " power" within the fraternity.


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## dfreybur

cemab4y said:


> I see you list three states, TX,IL,CA. Do any of these states permit open recruiting and advertising?



In California the rules allow general purpose advertizing but not recruiting.  The material was old and I think very few members are aware that it's allowed.  Long ago California copied Pennsylvania's "Friend to Friend" program but nothing ever seemed to come of it.

In Illinois there is the "Invitation to Petition" program that was copied from another jurisdiction.  So it appears they we allow recruiting in limited circumstances.  When I read the rules for Invitation to Petition it was so involved I wondered if anyone would ever jump through all of those hoops.  I have no idea about advertizing by individual lodges but the GL has a small ongoing PR program with a few informational billboard visible from interstate highways.

In Texas I haven't been here long enough to learn those topics yet.


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## pointwithinacircle2

My two jurisdictions, Maryland and Michigan, both have Masonic infomercials on the radio that run during Orioles and Tigers games respectively.  When I was in Lakeland, FL last year I went to a couple of Tigers spring training games.   The was a sign on the concession stands with the square and compasses announcing the name and number of the local Lodge that ran them.


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## Warrior1256

Im going to find out what the Grand Lodge in Kentucky says about this. It sounds like a good way to remind people of our existence.


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## cemab4y

Please let me clarify: I have been told by men I respect, that the GL of KY, "doesn't approve" of the sticker. While I believe that there is no specific rule against this sticker, the GL leadership does not like this sticker, and many consider it to be "advertising", which is prohibited by GL of KY rules.


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> Most Grand Lodges either forbid any advertising or open solicitation of new members. I  have been told, by men I respect, that The GL of Kentucky "doesn't like" the "2 B 1 ASK1" bumper sticker, and it should not be used. I believe that openly advertising on radio (and other media), is a major development (at least in some jurisdictions). I see you list three states, TX,IL,CA. Do any of these states permit open recruiting and advertising?


They do? Citation?


----------



## cemab4y

Glen Cook said:


> They do? Citation?



In my travels, I have visited lodges in 14 states, WashDC, and 5 foreign countries. I have met masons from many different jurisdictions. Although I am NOT an expert on the intricacies of the regulations from all 51 Grand Lodges, I have a good familiarity with the regulations of my own GL, and some others. The GL of KY specifically forbids advertising, and you are not permitted to invite a man to petition.

I met a man from South Carolina, who was a past district deputy Grand Master. He informed me, that Masonry in South Carolina, is very discreet, and there is no open advertising at all.

Some states, permit advertising. New Jersey has billboards, advertising the Craft, I have seen them.

Missouri permits lodges to underwrite educational programs on public TV. I was in Kansas City, and I saw a broadcast that was sponsored (underwritten) by a Missouri lodge. I called the secretary of the lodge, and he gave me the run-down on  the advertising regulations of the GL of Missouri.

When I visit a lodge in a different state, I like to ask the officers about their GL regulations concerning advertising and recruiting. Most of them tell me, in no uncertain terms, that their GL forbids advertising and recruiting.

If you want the specific regulations in a GL, I suggest that you contact the GL of the state you are interested in.


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## Glen Cook

I was responding to your claim "most Grand Lodges either forbid any advertising or open solicitation of new members."  I asked for a citation to the claim that most GL's have these prohibitions.  I was not asking about a particular GL.  

You are able to name two GLs with these restrictions.  That would seem to be contra to your assertion that "most Grand Lodges either forbid any advertising or open solicitation of new members." 

(Oh, and if we are playing number games, and I use that word advisedly, I've attended Craft functions in 16 US jurisdictions, nine jurisdictions without the US, have served as Chairman of JP for two national groups, am an emeritus member of an international G&A Committee, a national officer of one organization, and a regional officer of three organizations, none of which qualify me as an expert in all jurisprudence systems).


----------



## cemab4y

In a military lodge in a foreign country, you will meet masons from many different jurisdictions. I have discussed the topic of advertising/recruiting with Masons from a variety of GLs. Some states permit advertising (Maryland has radio ads, New Jersey has billboards, Massachusetts has a state-wide open house with media coverage ,etc). But the majority of the Masons I have interviewed on this topic, and the majority of the states I have visited, keep a tight lid on advertising.

I would like to conduct a survey, and get the official word from every GL in the USA (Maybe Canada as well).


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> In a military lodge in a foreign country, you will meet masons from many different jurisdictions. I have discussed the topic of advertising/recruiting with Masons from a variety of GLs. Some states permit advertising (Maryland has radio ads, New Jersey has billboards, Massachusetts has a state-wide open house with media coverage ,etc). But the majority of the Masons I have interviewed on this topic, and the majority of the states I have visited, keep a tight lid on advertising.
> ....



Which military lodge?  How many times did you attend?

Which states keep a tight lid on advertising?


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## cemab4y

I set up a Masonic "Square and Compasses" club at Al Asad air base in Iraq. We were NOT a degree-granting lodge, but a fellowship of men who were interested in Masonry. We attempted to obtain a charter from the Grand Lodge of New York, but we were never able to. (Read all about it at my blog www.cemab4y.blogspot.com )

My  (KY) GL does not have fraternal relations with PH masonry. I fellowshipped with PH Masons (OUTSIDE THE TYLED LODGE) at various military bases in Iraq/Afghanistan. I also met many mainstream F&AM masons during my ten (10) years in the Iraq/Afghanistan area. I have (in the past) belonged to a NY lodge (which no longer exists). NY has full fraternal relations with PH masonry.

The GL of Ontario (Canada) operated a traveling military lodge at Kandahar, Afghanistan. I visited that lodge many times.

Most of the masons I have met in the USA and abroad tell me, that their lodges/Grand Lodges forbid advertising and recruitment.

As I indicated in a previous post, I would like to conduct a survey, and contact the various GLs in the USA/Canada, and determine what the advertising policies are in their various jurisdictions.


----------



## cemab4y

Here is an audio interview (no video), with a highly experienced Mason, with many Masonic honors. His statements about the way Masonry is heading, are very prescient and thoughtful. Please listen to it:

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/f/9/f/f9f...27840560&hwt=90cc3065130cc04904354c344299d68d

(DISCLAIMER) Links posted by me, are for informational and discussion purposes only. I do NOT necessarily agree with nor endorse any of the statements presented.


----------



## Companion Joe

I liked what he had to say on many points. I especially agree with his point about Freemasonry doesn't need to change to fit today's society. If we do, then it is no longer Freemasonry. We need to offer what we offer, and the best of society will come to us. That's what Freemasonry has traditionally been, and we have dropped that standard in the last half century, leading us to where we are today. As a whole, people are fixated on numbers rather than attracting the best and brightest.

It kind of ties in with another thread on here I have purposely refrained from joining. We have opened the flood gates to people who don't even recognize that the way you dress when going to lodge (or church or a funeral, etc.) says a whole lot. That statement isn't a fashion critique. It's more rooted in fundamental sensibilities. I know plenty of great people who wear overalls and plenty of jerks who wear tuxedoes. I was at Grand Lodge last week and saw people dressed in all manner of ways that made me shake my head. Would George Washington or Benjamin Franklin go to a lodge meeting looking like they just finished mowing the yard or were trying out for the cast of Sons of Anarchy? What kind of message does that send to the public about the type of people we want in our fraternity? Freemasonry used to be for the most educated and respected people of the community. To quote Tom Jackson in the podcast, elite isn't a bad word. We should strive to be elite. Elite and being an elitist aren't the same thing. Being elite means being an example for your community, and hopefully being that example will make others on the cusp think, "Hey, I need to straighten myself out and be like those guys." (steps down off soapbox)


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

Great point about being Elite. The same point could be made about Secrets. Some things are secret simply because you have to earn the right to know them. There is even an old adage that describes this. Something about "casting pearls......"

I recently read a definition that went "to change secretly from within".  I believe that this is the most effective way to change the human heart. Unfortunately the word that was being defined has fallen into disrepute. It is a pity because it also seems to be the best way to reform Freemasonry.


----------



## cacarter

Companion Joe said:


> I liked what he had to say on many points. I especially agree with his point about Freemasonry doesn't need to change to fit today's society. If we do, then it is no longer Freemasonry. We need to offer what we offer, and the best of society will come to us. That's what Freemasonry has traditionally been, and we have dropped that standard in the last half century, leading us to where we are today. As a whole, people are fixated on numbers rather than attracting the best and brightest.



Freemasonry has changed over time though.  The teaching and ideals have not, but the purpose, and reasons for joining have changed.  The post Civil War-era was more mutual benefit reasons.  No, we didn't offer the insurance that groups like the Grange or Elks did, but the reasoning was still there.  The New Deal programs probably did more to kill social clubs and benevolent societies than anything else in history.  Following World War II, joining was for social reasons and meetings changed to accommodate that shift in reasons.  

I don't believe that we attracted the best because our teachings, symbols, and allegories are better than any other groups. It attracted the best because it was the "it" thing to join and thus attracted more elites.  I agree, we've lost that "elite" factor in most of our lodges and now the lodge seems to be attracting more wayward souls "looking for a purpose, etc."  (Nothing against those joined for that reason.)


----------



## cemab4y

I do not necessarily agree that Grand Lodges have "opened the flood gates". In 2012, the Grand Lodge of Texas reported 93,188 members. In 2013, The GL of TX reported 81,340 members. (Some TX Masons belong to more than one lodge). This is a loss of 11,848 or 12.71%. At first observation, it appears to me that the flood of members (at least in Texas) is going out, and not in.  The membership totals for all USA Grand Lodges, show a 2012 total of 1,305,433 and a 2013 total of 1,246,241 or a net loss of 59,192 or 4.53%.

Regardless of these numbers, most Masons are firmly convinced that everything in Masonry is just fine. After all, my lodge had three new EA's last year.

My observation of these data, lead me to the conclusion that the numbers in Masonry are going down. Not all masons agree, that is their privilege. Not all passengers on the Titanic, agreed that the ship was sinking.

I find myself in agreement, that the flood gates are open. My observation, based my experiences with the US Census Bureau, in statistical data collerction and analysis, leads me to the conclusion, that members are flooding out, and not in.

The requirements to petition Freemasonry remain:

-Male
-Mature of age. (18 some states, 21 some states)
-Belief in Deity
-Good moral character

I have also observed, a general decline in the appearance and dress of some of our membership. Slovenliness, does not speak well of any organization.

I cherish the rituals and traditions of our beloved Craft. I have no desire to alter any of them, nor to scrap our ancient landmarks.

BUT- We can and we must continue to make Freemasonry relevant to the  21st century man. VALUE from being a Mason, must be obtained by all of our membership, else we will have no members.


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> My GL does not have fraternal relations with PH masonry. I fellowshipped with PH Masons (OUTSIDE THE TYLED LODGE) at various military bases in Iraq/Afghanistan. .



But see your 2008 post:
Posted Thu 24 April 2008 10:56 PM Hide Post
I did attend the tiled meeting, after showing my NY dues card, and being satisfied that the lodge here, was in communications with the GL of NY, and that there would be no problem, since NY recognized the lodge here as "regular". 

When the GM of Masons in KY found out, he immediately contacted my home lodge, and told them not to accept any requests for demit.


----------



## cemab4y

I have been posted to various military bases in Iraq/Afghanistan. I have met many fine PH masons. In the past, when I was a member of a NY lodge (the GL of NY has recognition with PH masonry), I visited one meeting. I have worked in Iraq/Afghanistan for over 10 years. And during that time, I have fellowshipped with many fine PH Masons outside the tiled lodge.


(An incident occurred in 2008, recorded on my blog. The GL of Kentucky, reached a decision, and since then I have continued to associate with many fine PH masons, but outside the tyled lodge. The GL of New York has full fraternal relations with PH masonry. I pray that KY will soon join the many other Grand Lodges which recognize PH masonry as regular)


----------



## LAMason

Glen Cook said:


> But see your 2008 post:
> Posted Thu 24 April 2008 10:56 PM Hide Post
> *I did attend the tiled meeting,* after showing my NY dues card, and being satisfied that the lodge here, was in communications with the GL of NY, and that there would be no problem, since NY recognized the lodge here as "regular".
> 
> When the GM of Masons in KY found out, he immediately contacted my home lodge, and told them not to accept any requests for demit.





cemab4y said:


> ...I have fellowshipped with many fine PH Masons *outside the tiled lodge.*



@cemab4y, so which statement is true? Only one of them can be.


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> @cemab4y, so which statement is true? Only one of them can be.


I sent you a private response. Please keep the discussions on this thread "on point".

During my ten years in the combat zone, I have associated with many fine PH masons. An incident occurred once in 2008, and I reached a decision with the GL of Kentucky. Since then, I have continued to associate with PH Masons, in Iraq/Afghanistan.

I suggest that this dead horse stop being whipped.


----------



## Morris

LAMason said:


> @cemab4y, so which statement is true? Only one of them can be.



Introduce Yourself & Be Active http://72.167.178.20/index.php?threads/Introduce-Yourself-&-Be-Active.12034/


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> I sent you a private response. Please keep the discussions on this thread "on point".
> 
> During my ten years in the combat zone, I have associated with many fine PH masons. An incident occurred once in 2008, and I reached a decision with the GL of Kentucky. Since then, I have continued to associate with PH Masons, in Iraq/Afghanistan.
> 
> I suggest that this dead horse stop being whipped.



For many years you have posted on every Masonic Forum the things that you believe are wrong with Freemasonry including derogatory remarks about the GL of KY as well as other Grand Lodges.  You repeat information that you supposedly have heard from members of other Grand Lodges, but you do not post their names or any other kind of verification of what was said or what is actually the truth.  You do not make any attempt to verify if what you are posting is the truth or not, so you in fact are doing nothing but gossiping.

You have stated repeatedly that you were wrongfully suspended by the Grand Lodge of Kentucky, yet you are “condemned out of your own mouth” by statements you have made in the past that clearly indicate that you were not unjustly suspended.

You also stated as a justification for attending the “tiled meeting” “that the lodge here, was in communications with the GL of NY”, how did you confirm that?  What was the name of the Lodge and what PH Grand Lodge chartered it.

As a Master Mason you should be 100% certain that something is true before you indiscriminately post it on a website, blog, or forum.

You may think that this is beating a dead horse and is off topic but since you post statements without any kind of verification to support your claims.   Credibility and veracity are important, so your long and prolific history of posting misleading and inaccurate information is important.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> I have visited lodges in 14 states, WashDC, and five foreign countries. I have never been refused entry to any regular lodge. As long as you are a member of a Grand Lodge which is in communication with the Mother Grand Lodge in England, and the lodge you wish to visit is also in communications with the Mother Grand Lodge, you should have no problem.



More misinformation, by "Mother Grand Lodge in England", at my peril I assume you mean the UGLE, however the fact that 2 Grand Lodges are in communication with the UGLE has no bearing on whether or not a member of one GL may visit the other.  The 2 Grand Lodges must be in communication with each other.


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> More misinformation, by "Mother Grand Lodge in England", at my peril I assume you mean the UGLE, however the fact that 2 Grand Lodges are in communication with the UGLE has no bearing on whether or not a member of one GL may visit the other.  The 2 Grand Lodges must be in communication with each other.



my mistake. There is some discussion about the "Mother Grand Lodge of England".  Many individuals use the term "Mother Grand Lodge", and UGLE interchangeably.

And you are quite correct, that for a Mason who is a member of one Grand Lodge to visit a lodge in another jurisdiction, both Grand Lodges must be in full communications.


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> For many years you have posted on every Masonic Forum the things that you believe are wrong with Freemasonry including derogatory remarks about the GL of KY as well as other Grand Lodges.  You repeat information that you supposedly have heard from members of other Grand Lodges, but you do not post their names or any other kind of verification of what was said or what is actually the truth.  You do not make any attempt to verify if what you are posting is the truth or not, so you in fact are doing nothing but gossiping.
> 
> You have stated repeatedly that you were wrongfully suspended by the Grand Lodge of Kentucky, yet you are “condemned out of your own mouth” by statements you have made in the past that clearly indicate that you were not unjustly suspended.
> 
> You also stated as a justification for attending the “tiled meeting” “that the lodge here, was in communications with the GL of NY”, how did you confirm that?  What was the name of the Lodge and what PH Grand Lodge chartered it.
> 
> As a Master Mason you should be 100% certain that something is true before you indiscriminately post it on a website, blog, or forum.
> 
> You may think that this is beating a dead horse and is off topic but since you post statements without any kind of verification to support your claims.   Credibility and veracity are important, so your long and prolific history of posting misleading and inaccurate information is important.



See the response in private. This thread is about what you would like to see changed/improved.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> You assume incorrectly. The Mother Grand Lodge in England, is not the UGLE.



Ok, then what is it?


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

Just from memory, I'll take a guess.  Wasn't the GMA started in 1717, broken apart by a schism, and the two factions came back together decades later to form the UGLE?


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> Ok, then what is it?



My mistake. Many individuals use the terms "Mother Grand Lodge" and the UGLE interchangeably.

Again, please keep the discussions in the thread "on point".


----------



## cemab4y

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Just from memory, I'll take a guess.  Wasn't the GMA started in 1717, broken apart by a schism, and the two factions came back together decades later to form the UGLE?



 see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_Grand_Lodge_of_England

It is also called the "Premier Lodge"


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_Grand_Lodge_of_England
> 
> It is also called the "Premier Lodge"


What "is also called the 'Premier Lodge'"?


----------



## cemab4y

Check out the URL, from Wikipedia, and check out the private response.

This thread is for discussions of what you would like to see changed/improved. Let's try to keep the postings "on point".


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> Check out the URL, from Wikipedia, and check out the private response.
> 
> This thread is for discussions of what you would like to see changed/improved. Let's try to keep the postings "on point".



I was replying to your post, so you must have thought it was "on point" at the time you made your post.  I am trying to find out if you are saying that the UGLE is also called the "Premiere Lodge".

There is no reason for you to reply by private response, there is nothing that I have to say that will not stand public scrutiny.  Also, I do not need you to send me a link to a Wikipedia article, I researched this topic some time ago and used more authoritative sources than Wikipedia.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> *Re: What would you like to see changed in the Maso*
> 
> *Any Grand Lodge officer who cannot cope with modern technology, needs to resign or be impeached. *
> 
> Any Mason who has difficulty with the internet, needs to check with his local library or vocational school and learn about e-mail, etc.
> 
> *If a Grand Lodge officer is unable to cope with 21st century technology, and gets "pushed out" of Freemasonry, then good. Masonry is better off without such men*.



Do you really believe that?


----------



## Zack

cemab4y said: ↑ *If a Grand Lodge officer is unable to cope with 21st century technology, and gets "pushed out" of Freemasonry, then good. Masonry is better off without such men*.

That is the most ignorant statement I have ever read.    I would say that your intolerance is far worse than a Brother's computer limitations.


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> Do you really believe that?



I stand on my statement. Like it or not, Masonry, and the world are in the "internet age". If a Grand officer is unable to understand this, then he is clearly behind the times, and there it is.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

cemab4y said:


> Any Grand Lodge officer who cannot cope with modern technology, needs to resign or be impeached.





cemab4y said:


> I stand on my statement. Like it or not, Masonry, and the world are in the "internet age". If a Grand officer is unable to understand this, then he is clearly behind the times, and there it is.


If this is a bid to earn the respect of your peers you might want to rethink your strategy.


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> I stand on my statement. Like it or not, Masonry, and the world are in the "internet age". If a Grand officer is unable to understand this, then he is clearly behind the times, and there it is.


But you were quoted as saying "Masonry is better off without such men."  Surely you misspoke.  Did you just mean they weren't qualified to be a GLO?


----------



## Glen Cook

LAMason said:


> I was replying to your post, so you must have thought it was "on point" at the time you made your post.  I am trying to find out if you are saying that the UGLE is also called the "Premiere Lodge".
> ...



UGLE is sometimes referred to as the Premier "Grand" Lodge, but it is not a term with which I am comfortable.


----------



## cemab4y

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> If this is a bid to earn the respect of your peers you might want to rethink your strategy.



I gave up trying to earn respect a long time ago.

"Only a dead fish goes downstream all the time"

"You can always tell a pioneer, they have arrows in their backs" -author unknown


----------



## cemab4y

Glen Cook said:


> But you were quoted as saying "Masonry is better off without such men."  Surely you misspoke.  Did you just mean they weren't qualified to be a GLO?



Read into my statements, what you wish. Most people do, anyway. I mean exactly what I said. Masonry is better off without men in leadership, who cannot deal with the present state of technology.


----------



## JJones

cemab4y said:


> Read into my statements, what you wish. Most people do, anyway. I mean exactly what I said. Masonry is better off without men in leadership, who cannot deal with the present state of technology.



Technology is so central to leadership because of what reason?  If GL sees no value in technology how does it hurt anyone?  They're still our brothers, regardless if they care about websites or know how to use an IPhone.

You're making broad brushstrokes on a very vague canvas here.  I've been watching this thread for a few days now and it's been slowly devolving.  Let's get back on topic, as others have said.


----------



## dalinkou

I was initiated in February 2012 and raised in June 2012, just under 6 months time.  Looking back, I feel that I moved way too fast.  I would like to see longer minimum time cycles between degrees to give new brothers time to learn lessons rather than just learn words.


----------



## crono782

dalinkou said:


> I was initiated in February 2012 and raised in June 2012, just under 6 months time.  Looking back, I feel that I moved way too fast.  I would like to see longer minimum time cycles between degrees to give new brothers time to learn lessons rather than just learn words.


Similar to myself. Dec 2012 and Feb 2013 for me. I will tell Brothers that my one regret so far is how quick I moved through the first three degrees. I wish I had purposely spent more time as an EA and FC. After all, you are a MM for life, but and EA/FC for a woefully short period. A lot of lessons to be learned that are sadly skipped over.


----------



## cemab4y

Glen Cook said:


> But you were quoted as saying "Masonry is better off without such men."  Surely you misspoke.  Did you just mean they weren't qualified to be a GLO?



Your inference is correct. I believe that men who do not see the need and benefit of modern technology, and the immense benefits that technology can bring to the Craft, should not be in leadership. I did not mean to mislead anyone.


----------



## cemab4y

JJones said:


> Technology is so central to leadership because of what reason?  If GL sees no value in technology how does it hurt anyone?  They're still our brothers, regardless if they care about websites or know how to use an IPhone.
> 
> You're making broad brushstrokes on a very vague canvas here.  I've been watching this thread for a few days now and it's been slowly devolving.  Let's get back on topic, as others have said.



I have also urged that we keep the discussions here "on point". If we can do so, no one will be more agreeable, than I will.

Let's keep the discussions on how we can better use modern technology, and administrative changes, to better serve our Craft. We are instructed to improve ourselves in Masonry. The modern world, and demographics, are forcing changes and adaptations on Masonry (and the appendant bodies), like it or not.

A declining membership base, an older membership base, fewer lodges, consolidation of lodges, and other factors, will have an immense impact on this organization.

It is up to us, the membership, to manage these changes, or the changes will manage _us. _


----------



## cemab4y

dalinkou said:


> I was initiated in February 2012 and raised in June 2012, just under 6 months time.  Looking back, I feel that I moved way too fast.  I would like to see longer minimum time cycles between degrees to give new brothers time to learn lessons rather than just learn words.



Bravo! I have, for many years, been advocating that Grand Lodges/Lodges increase Masonic knowledge to individual members. And I mean, both newly made Masons, and old coots like myself. I have travelled the length and breadth of this land, and I have only see two or three lodges, with a library of Masonic books, for the membership.

The GL of North Carolina, has an on-line training program, where individual Masons can study on the history of the Grand Lodge (and other topics). This is where the internet can really help. Grand lodges can work together, and develop on-line courses, where Masons can increase their Masonic "literacy". Courses in leadership, and how to more efficiently run lodges, could be devised.

This is an exciting time to be a Mason!


----------



## dfreybur

Glen Cook said:


> UGLE is sometimes referred to as the Premier "Grand" Lodge, but it is not a term with which I am comfortable.



I take Premier to mean the 1717 organization that predated the split then union between the Moderns and the Antients.  As such I take it to mean the Moderns, an organization that was subsumed at the point of union.


----------



## LAMason

dfreybur said:


> I take Premier to mean the 1717 organization that predated the split then union between the Moderns and the Antients.  As such I take it to mean the Moderns, an organization that was subsumed at the point of union.



That has been my understanding also, I may be wrong but I have always thought of it in terms of modern day business/non profit combinations and thought of it as a consolidation where both the Moderns Grand Lodge and Antients Grand Lodge ceased to exist and an entirely new successor Grand Lodge was created, the UGLE, in which case  it would not be proper for the UGLE to be referred to as the Premier Grand Lodge.  However if you think of it as a merger where the Antients Grand Lodge was dissolved and absorbed by the Moderns Grand Lodge with a name change to UGLE, then it would be proper for the UGLE to be referred to as the Premier Grand Lodge.


----------



## Glen Cook

Note an example of the usage by UGLE: http://www.ugle.org.uk/freemasons-hall/the-history-of-freemasons-hall


----------



## dalinkou

crono782 said:


> Similar to myself. Dec 2012 and Feb 2013 for me. I will tell Brothers that my one regret so far is how quick I moved through the first three degrees. I wish I had purposely spent more time as an EA and FC. After all, you are a MM for life, but and EA/FC for a woefully short period. A lot of lessons to be learned that are sadly skipped over.



Exactly.  I spoke to an EA on the first Thursday in April.  He was maybe 1/3 of the way through his memory work and his goal was to be a MM by May.  Seriously.  

The kind of man you become has little to do with your effectiveness at memory exercises, nor has it much to do with how fast you can make a beeline over to an appendant body.  While some may skip the finer points of each degree, it should be more by conscious choice than by just fast-tracking over the lessons from the beginning.


----------



## LAMason

Glen Cook said:


> Note an example of the usage by UGLE: http://www.ugle.org.uk/freemasons-hall/the-history-of-freemasons-hall


Please explain.


----------



## cemab4y

dalinkou said:


> Exactly.  I spoke to an EA on the first Thursday in April.  He was maybe 1/3 of the way through his memory work and his goal was to be a MM by May.  Seriously.
> 
> The kind of man you become has little to do with your effectiveness at memory exercises, nor has it much to do with how fast you can make a beeline over to an appendant body.  While some may skip the finer points of each degree, it should be more by conscious choice than by just fast-tracking over the lessons from the beginning.



My GL requires 30 days minimum between degree work. And there is a one-year maximum time (some men take an EA and then drop out). When I was doing the memorization, I decided to get some Masonic books, and do my own self-study. I am glad I did, I learned some additional Masonic vocabulary, and a small amount of Masonic history. In European lodges (I lived in Europe for three years), some of the lodges have a one-year minimum time between Craft degrees.

Albert Pike, when he modernized and refined the Scottish Rite (southern jurisdiction) he suggested that there be one year of study between each of the 29 degrees! This proposal never was adopted.

I do not know if there should even be an arbitrary time limit between each of the Craft degrees. I would be in favor of each new Mason, getting some classroom instruction, and also some on-line instructions in the history and background of Freemasonry, and the specifics of the degrees.


----------



## Glen Cook

LAMason said:


> Please explain.


Usage of the term premier grand lodge by UGLE. I find yet in common usage in that jurisdiction.


----------



## cemab4y

In KY, the Grand Master writes a monthly message, which is (normally) published on the front page of the (KY) "Masonic Home Journal" . You can read some back issues at:

https://grandlodgeofkentucky.org/?wpfb_dl=133

If you read the March 2015 issue, you will see that KY has recently concluded their first Video Conference on Masonic Education. The GL had some technical glitches, but the GM stated that it was an overall success. I could not be more delighted! I am glad to see the GL of KY is adopting new technology. The GL of KY will have at least one more video conference, this time the GL will discuss proposed changes in Masonic Legislation, prior to the upcoming Grand Communication.

This is marvelous! I hope that their experiences will be fruitful, and other Grand Lodges will emulate this. The great thing about having 51 Grand Lodges, is that there are 51 laboratories, where new ideas can be tried, and if successful, then emulated by other Grand Lodges.


----------



## LAMason

Glen Cook said:


> Usage of the term premier grand lodge by UGLE. I find yet in common usage in that jurisdiction.


The only instance I see Premier Grand Lodge on the link is used in reference to building a central hall in 1769 which would have predated the combination of the 2 Grand Lodges.  I see you are a member of the UGLE, so you would know if it is common for them to refer to the UGLE as such.  Of course it is not of much importance, but I find such information interesting.

Thanks


----------



## Glen Cook

LAMason said:


> The only instance I see Premier Grand Lodge on the link is used in reference to building a central hall in 1769 which would have predated the combination of the 2 Grand Lodges.  I see you are a member of the UGLE, so you would know if it is common for them to refer to the UGLE as such.  Of course it is not of much importance, but I find such information interesting.
> 
> Thanks


Or, maybe I was so busy worrying about a piece of ritual I wasn't paying attention


----------



## dalinkou

cemab4y said:


> My GL requires 30 days minimum between degree work. And there is a one-year maximum time (some men take an EA and then drop out). When I was doing the memorization, I decided to get some Masonic books, and do my own self-study. I am glad I did, I learned some additional Masonic vocabulary, and a small amount of Masonic history. In European lodges (I lived in Europe for three years), some of the lodges have a one-year minimum time between Craft degrees.
> 
> Albert Pike, when he modernized and refined the Scottish Rite (southern jurisdiction) he suggested that there be one year of study between each of the 29 degrees! This proposal never was adopted.
> 
> I do not know if there should even be an arbitrary time limit between each of the Craft degrees. I would be in favor of each new Mason, getting some classroom instruction, and also some on-line instructions in the history and background of Freemasonry, and the specifics of the degrees.



The standard in Texas is similar; there are some very short time cycles required between each degree, with a one-year maximum time for the EA.  And we also lose a lot of EAs as well.

The problem is that many seem to think that it is just a memorization club, and they race through without ever wondering why the lessons are important.


----------



## coachn

dalinkou said:


> ...The problem is that many seem to think that it is just a memorization club, and they race through without ever wondering why the lessons are important.



But it is *not a* *problem* since it is just a memorization club for many who could not care any less about all its other potentials.


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> But it is *not a* *problem* since it is just a memorization club for many who could not care any less about all its other potentials.



I have never met anyone who thought that Freemasonry was a "memorization club". But I can see how if a man is given a degree, and then shoved right into a class where he has to memorize, without being told the "why" behind the memorization, he might feel this way. This is why, I have always been in favor of masonic education (for newly made Masons, especially).

We have got to work with new Masons "upstream", and make their first year in the Craft relevant and interesting. If we can work with new Masons, and assist them in learning Masonic history, ritual, and the background of our organization, then we will have them for a solid Masonic career.

I would love see a "holistic" approach. New Masons should be given classroom instruction, AND on-line instruction in a wide spectrum of Masonic topics. Some of these can be:

-The history of Freemasonry
-The history of the Grand Lodge, and the lodge he has joined.
-An introduction to some of the appendant bodies
-Masonic vocabulary and terminology
-How Freemasonry has influenced our national history, and our society
-How to serve as an officer.

In the EA degree, we are charged to improve ourselves in Masonry. I believe sincerely, that lodges have the ability to give a new Mason the working tools, to do exactly that.


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> I have never met anyone who thought that Freemasonry was a "memorization club".



Perhaps expanding your circle might change this. ;-)



cemab4y said:


> But I can see how if a man is given a degree, and then shoved right into a class where he has to memorize, without being told the "why" behind the memorization, he might feel this way.



I asked "why" throughout my first three degrees and got very little other than "just memorize it and it shall all become clear after a while". I finally wised up and asked how long were they in the craft and was it clear to them.  The subject was changed soon thereafter.  The why is rarely explained and when it is, it is usually something that makes little to no sense in relation to what is being memorized.



cemab4y said:


> This is why, I have always been in favor of masonic education (for newly made Masons, especially).



WOW!  ME TOO!  Only I think that you and I might have very little agreement as to what "Masonic" education actually is.



cemab4y said:


> We have got to work with new Masons "upstream", and make their first year in the Craft relevant and interesting. If we can work with new Masons, and assist them in learning Masonic history, ritual, and the background of our organization, then we will have them for a solid Masonic career.



That sounds awesome until the rubber hits the pavement.  Masonic history is all too often a fabricated mishmash of previous member's conjectures or attempts to make the organization more than it actually is.  Ritual and background follow a close second to this.  And as far as a masonic career, this is a volunteer organization and it was never intended to be a man's career.



cemab4y said:


> I would love see a "holistic" approach.



That would be awesome, once the devil's in the details get beaten out.  That would be an unbelievable undertaking.



cemab4y said:


> New Masons should be given classroom instruction, AND on-line instruction in a wide spectrum of Masonic topics. Some of these can be:
> 
> 1-The history of Freemasonry
> 2-The history of the Grand Lodge, and the lodge he has joined.
> 3-An introduction to some of the appendant bodies
> 4-Masonic vocabulary and terminology
> 5-How Freemasonry has influenced our national history, and our society
> 6-How to serve as an officer.



1- Which history?!?! The fabricate ones that connect the organization to every possible occurrence of Stonecraft-Mystery Schools-Cabala-Alchemy-Hermetisism-etc. OR the one where four London lodges got together to form a Grand lodge for the purposes of having quarterly dinner parties?
2- How would this make him a better man?
3- Why? So he can get further distracted from working upon his Ashlar?
4- Would you include how this very same lexicon being taught differs in reality?
5- Would this be shared with him before or after his degrees and his Betterment Work?
6- What if he has no desire to run the gym and merely wants to work out?




cemab4y said:


> In the EA degree, we are charged to improve ourselves in Masonry.



Yes, unfortunately, what is supported by the organization is only improving the members in organizational support.



cemab4y said:


> I believe sincerely, that lodges have the ability to give a new Mason the working tools, to do exactly that.



Yes, but do they have the intellectual knowhow to teach each member how to use these Working Tools Masterfully?[/QUOTE]


----------



## Glen Cook

coachn said:


> But it is *not a* *problem* since it is just a memorization club for many who could not care any less about all its other potentials.


Reference, a comment in another forum in which the Brother decried "pointless ritual" and argued shortening opening because many members no longer knew the meaning of the "hand gestures" which were part of the opening.  They had memorized, but not understood.  

Note, I find that memorization can be -a step- in the understanding process for me: when I know the words, then I can contemplate them.


----------



## coachn

Glen Cook said:


> Reference, a comment in another forum in which the Brother decried "pointless ritual" and argued shortening opening because many members no longer knew the meaning of the "hand gestures" which were part of the opening.  They had memorized, but not understood.
> 
> Note, I find that memorization can be -a step- in the understanding process for me: when I know the words, then I can contemplate them.


So do I, but such a finding shall not occur for those *who could not care less*.  That is the problem, and the challenge to all who Enter.


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Perhaps expanding your circle might change this. ;-)
> 
> *--In my experience, there is no memorization, after the Craft degree lectures. If a man jumps to the conclusion that Freemasonry is a memorization club, then he is wrong.*
> 
> 
> 
> I asked "why" throughout my first three degrees and got very little other than "just memorize it and it shall all become clear after a while". I finally wised up and asked how long were they in the craft and was it clear to them.  The subject was changed soon thereafter.  The why is rarely explained and when it is, it is usually something that makes little to no sense in relation to what is being memorized.
> 
> *--When I was in class, learning the lectures, I never thought to ask "why?". I just took it as a necessity, did the memorization, and then moved on. BTW- In 1982, memorizing the MM lecture was optional. BUT- You had to have it, if you wished to serve as an officer. And I got a nice diploma. I have never had the honor of serving the Craft as an officer. A year after my MM degree, I was sent to Africa.*
> 
> 
> 
> WOW!  ME TOO!  Only I think that you and I might have very little agreement as to what "Masonic" education actually is.
> 
> *--Masonic education is a wide topic. Each man defines education a bit differently.*
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds awesome until the rubber hits the pavement.  Masonic history is all too often a fabricated mishmash of previous member's conjectures or attempts to make the organization more than it actually is.  Ritual and background follow a close second to this.  And as far as a masonic career, this is a volunteer organization and it was never intended to be a man's career.
> 
> *--This is why Grand Lodges and Lodges should develop a comprehensive course, consisting of both classroom instruction, and on-line training. Masonic history courses can consist of the following:
> 
> The true history of early operative masonry, building of the cathedrals and public buildings in Europe, etc. And the history of how the four lodges cam together and formed the first Grand lodge in 1717. How Freemasonry arrived in the  new world, by way of British Military Lodges. etc.
> 
> Of course, Masonry is a volunteer organization. But I use the term "career" in an elastic sense. We "labor" in quarries, symbolically. We "receive" Master's wages. And many men donate thousands of hours to the Craft, freely. Some men serve as officers, and that is hard work, where you must endure criticism. Service to the Craft is a volunteer "career".*
> 
> 
> 
> That would be awesome, once the devil's in the details get beaten out.  That would be an unbelievable undertaking.
> 
> 
> 
> 1- Which history?!?! The fabricate ones that connect the organization to every possible occurrence of Stonecraft-Mystery Schools-Cabala-Alchemy-Hermetisism-etc. OR the one where four London lodges got together to form a Grand lodge for the purposes of having quarterly dinner parties?
> 
> *--See my remarks above. By "history", I mean a comprehensive approach, "Macro" history about the  origins of the Craft, and "Micro" history, about the Grand Lodge and the specific Lodge of the new Mason.*
> 
> 2- How would this make him a better man?
> 
> *--Learning about Masonry, will not in itself make someone a better man. BUT- If a man appreciates the background and history of the  Craft, and the impact that Freemasonry has had on our nation, and the world, it could encourage him to be a more knowledgeable Mason.
> 
> "Knowledge alone, is power" Sun-Tzu*
> 
> 3- Why? So he can get further distracted from working upon his Ashlar?
> 
> *--There are over 100 appendant and concordant bodies in the Masonic family of organizations. Every Mason should have an understanding of the different organizations. I like to think of them as a "cafeteria" of organizations, where each person can choose to participate. One result, of having a knowledge of the appendant bodies:  A new Mason could learn  about the Order of DeMolay. He would look around his town, and find that there was no DeMolay nearby. Then he could start a chapter. Young men would join up. 90% of DeMolay graduates go into Craft Masonry. His lodge would get some new members. Not immediately, but some years later. And some young men, would get the benefits of DeMolay membership. All because someone took the time to teach the new Mason, about DeMolay.
> 
> "Anyone can count the seeds in an apple. Only God can count the apples in a seed" author unknown*
> 
> 4- Would you include how this very same lexicon being taught differs in reality?
> 
> *--Masonic vocabulary is charming and baroque. There are many archaic terms used in Masonry, which not all men are conversant.*
> 
> 
> 5- Would this be shared with him before or after his degrees and his Betterment Work?
> 
> *--As I stated previously. Every new Mason should have a basic grounding in how Masonry has affected our national history and character. Many of the founding fathers were Masons. Their impact on the Constitution, and our splendid traditions of religious freedom, were drawn directly or indirectly from Masonic traditions. The exact time that a man obtains this insight and knowledge, does not matter.*
> 
> 
> 6- What if he has no desire to run the gym and merely wants to work out?
> 
> 
> *--Not every Mason will have the desire or the opportunity to serve the Craft as an officer. BUT- Every new Mason should have a basic understanding of the procedures to be an officer. Whether a man ever serves as an officer does not matter. Our officers are elected by nomination and majority vote, and every Mason needs to understand the basic procedure. If he never serves as an officer, fine. He will definitely be involved in the selection process.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, unfortunately, what is supported by the organization is only improving the members in organizational support.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but do they have the intellectual knowhow to teach each member how to use these Working Tools Masterfully?
> 
> *--Not all lodges will have the knowledge or ability to teach new Masons these skills. This is where Grand Lodges can develop classroom and on-line training, to assist new Masons (and more experienced Masons) in how to use the "Working Tools"!*


[/QUOTE]


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑
> Perhaps expanding your circle might change this. ;-)
> 
> --In my experience, there is no memorization, after the Craft degree lectures. If a man jumps to the conclusion that Freemasonry is a memorization club, then he is wrong.



Yes, he would be, but it is far too common an assessment by far too many who come and go.



cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑
> I asked "why" throughout my first three degrees and got very little other than "just memorize it and it shall all become clear after a while". I finally wised up and asked how long were they in the craft and was it clear to them. The subject was changed soon thereafter. The why is rarely explained and when it is, it is usually something that makes little to no sense in relation to what is being memorized.
> 
> --When I was in class, learning the lectures, I never thought to ask "why?". I just took it as a necessity, did the memorization, and then moved on. BTW- In 1982, memorizing the MM lecture was optional. BUT- You had to have it, if you wished to serve as an officer. And I got a nice diploma. I have never had the honor of serving the Craft as an officer. A year after my MM degree, I was sent to Africa.


In my jurisdiction, it is still required to advance.



cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑ WOW! ME TOO! Only I think that you and I might have very little agreement as to what "Masonic" education actually is.
> 
> --Masonic education is a wide topic. Each man defines education a bit differently.



Yes, you recommend that it be provided.  How does one decide on what is provided?



cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑
> That sounds awesome until the rubber hits the pavement. Masonic history is all too often a fabricated mishmash of previous member's conjectures or attempts to make the organization more than it actually is. Ritual and background follow a close second to this. And as far as a masonic career, this is a volunteer organization and it was never intended to be a man's career.
> 
> --This is why Grand Lodges and Lodges should develop a comprehensive course, consisting of both classroom instruction, and on-line training. Masonic history courses can consist of the following:
> 
> The true history of early operative masonry, building of the cathedrals and public buildings in Europe, etc. And the history of how the four lodges cam together and formed the first Grand lodge in 1717. How Freemasonry arrived in the new world, by way of British Military Lodges. etc.


Would your suggestion include how providing the true history of early operative masonry has nothing to do with freemasonry?



cemab4y said:


> Of course, Masonry is a volunteer organization. But I use the term "career" in an elastic sense. We "labor" in quarries, symbolically. We "receive" Master's wages. And many men donate thousands of hours to the Craft, freely. Some men serve as officers, and that is hard work, where you must endure criticism. Service to the Craft is a volunteer "career".


But we don't labor in the quarries symbolically.  We receive no wages.  Master's wages can't even be agreed upon as to what that phrase actually means.  We put on plays and run boring business meetings al in the name of preservation of things that next to no one understands.



cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑ That would be awesome, once the devil's in the details get beaten out. That would be an unbelievable undertaking.
> 
> 1- Which history?!?! The fabricate ones that connect the organization to every possible occurrence of Stonecraft-Mystery Schools-Cabala-Alchemy-Hermetisism-etc. OR the one where four London lodges got together to form a Grand lodge for the purposes of having quarterly dinner parties?
> 
> --See my remarks above. By "history", I mean a comprehensive approach, "Macro" history about the origins of the Craft, and "Micro" history, about the Grand Lodge and the specific Lodge of the new Mason.



I saw them and made comment.



cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑
> 2- How would this make him a better man?
> 
> --Learning about Masonry, will not in itself make someone a better man. BUT- If a man appreciates the background and history of the Craft, and the impact that Freemasonry has had on our nation, and the world, it could encourage him to be a more knowledgeable Mason.


"_*We have all the light we need*_, we just _*need*_ to put it in practice." - Albert _*Pike*_

And so very few actually apply what little light they have been provided.


cemab4y said:


> "Knowledge alone, is power" Sun-Tzu


That's bogus.  Knowledge is inventory and inventory alone.  You must apply it appropriately for it to empower in any way.



cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑
> 3- Why? So he can get further distracted from working upon his Ashlar?
> 
> --There are over 100 appendant and concordant bodies in the Masonic family of organizations. Every Mason should have an understanding of the different organizations.



Says who?  And for what reason?


cemab4y said:


> I like to think of them as a "cafeteria" of organizations, where each person can choose to participate. One result, of having a knowledge of the appendant bodies: A new Mason could learn about the Order of


I know you have not finished your thought here, but here some food for thought:  A cafeteria that doesn't nurture is harmful to those seeking nourishment.

Freemasonry has huge hurdles to overcome.  The first is getting its history cleaned up of all the bogus conjectures that plague its archives.  The second is coming clean as to what it actually does for men rather than continuing the games.  Maybe after these actions, it can start actually supporting men in becoming better.


----------



## Glen Cook

CM: "In my experience, there is no memorization, after the Craft degree lectures. "

???  You mean other than funeral ceremonies, installation, master's ob, closing charge and, as someone said, 100 side orders (a number I question)?


----------



## Glen Cook

coachn said:


> ...
> 
> The first is getting its history cleaned up of all the bogus conjectures that plague its archives.



To that point, see "Origins of Speculative Masonry" by John Palmer, Rocky Mountain Mason, Vol. 2, Issue 2, 2015


----------



## cemab4y

Glen Cook said:


> CM: "In my experience, there is no memorization, after the Craft degree lectures. "
> 
> ???  You mean other than funeral ceremonies, installation, master's ob, closing charge and, as someone said, 100 side orders (a number I question)?



--I see your point of course. I should have said, there is no mandatory memorization, to advance through the Craft degrees, other than the lectures.

Of course, there are ceremonies, and cornerstone-laying, etc. These memorizations are required of officers and participants. I never looked upon the Craft as a "memorization club". Myself, I cherish the rituals. I visit a lot of lodges, and I have been in lodges where one of officers would be absent. The WM would ask for a volunteer to fill in for an officer. No one there would volunteer, so I have often helped out. The level of individual Masons in their ability to memorize is uneven.


----------



## LAMason

Glen Cook said:


> To that point, see "Origins of Speculative Masonry" by John Palmer, Rocky Mountain Mason, Vol. 2, Issue 2, 2015



It looks like you have to have a subscription to get the article, but there is a lot of information at:  http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/history_theories.html


----------



## cemab4y

There are easily over 100 appendant and concordant bodies affiliated or otherwise included in the Masonic "family" of organizations. Some are well-known, almost everyone has heard of the Shriners. Some are obscure, like the Royal Order of Quetzlcoatl. Some are small, like the "Constellation" (an organization for young ladies, which exists only in the state of New York. Some are invitation only, like the Royal Order of Jesters. Some are only loosely connected, like the Philalathes Society, an independent research society. Another of more obscure is the "Society of Blue Friars".  "The Society of Blue Friars" was formed in 1932, explicitly "to recognize Masonic Authors." It is probably the smallest, and certainly one of the oddest, concordant bodies in Masonry. It has no fixed ritual or ceremonies, no dues or fees, and very few records. There are "widow's sons" motorcycle clubs, and other theme-based clubs.

There is the "Order of the Builders for Boys" , which exists only in Kentucky. It is for young men, 11 to 21, who are related to a Master Mason. There is the "Confederate Military Lodge of  Research" , which is not really a "lodge" .but an organization of Masons who are interested in the War between the States.

I believe, that it is important that every Mason should have a basic understanding of the appendant/concordant bodies. I am an (inactive) Shriner. My wife and I have enjoyed the fellowship and fun of the Shrine. If a Mason is interested in the historical and esoteric aspects of Freemasonry, there is the York and Scottish Rites.


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> There are easily over 100 appendant and concordant bodies affiliated or otherwise included in the Masonic "family" of organizations. ..Snip.



Yes, those of us involved in the side orders are aware of them.  My question, as someone involved in them, is if there are over 100,  Simply repeating the claim and describing a few groups does not make the claim true.  So, citation? 

Now, a more productive area of discussion would be whether the increasing number of side orders actually hurts the fraternity by diminishing our time with the symbolic degrees.  I know that is the case for me.


----------



## cemab4y

Glen Cook said:


> Yes, those of us involved in the side orders are aware of them.  My question, as someone involved in them, is if there are over 100,  Simply repeating the claim and describing a few groups does not make the claim true.  So, citation?
> 
> Now, a more productive area of discussion would be whether the increasing number of side orders actually hurts the fraternity by diminishing our time with the symbolic degrees.  I know that is the case for me.


ns
Here is a partial list of the groups that exist nationally:

http://www.bessel.org/append.htm

and

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/masonic_degrees.html

I do not agree that there are an "increasing" number of appendant/concordant bodies. My feeling is that the large number of groups in our "family", is a benefit. Each individual Mason, can seek out the type of club or group, which will give him enjoyment and satisfaction. I have transported children and parents to the Shrine hospitals. The Shrine is far removed from Craft Masonry. But, my Shrine experiences have been wonderful, and I could not be a Shriner without Masonry.

Sadly, many of the appendant bodies are experiencing a reduction in numbers, similar to what we are seeing in Craft Masonry.


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> ns
> Here is a partial list of the groups that exist nationally:
> 
> http://www.bessel.org/append.htm
> 
> and
> 
> http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/masonic_degrees.html
> 
> I do not agree that there are an "increasing" number of appendant/concordant bodies. .



Not 100. 

No increasing number?  
Scarlet Cord
Operatives 
Acon
Athelstan
Spiritual Knights
Pilgrim Preceptors
The now disolved KT rectified rite


----------



## cemab4y

I said here is a PARTIAL list. There are many groups that are not national. The "Constellation" exists only in New York state. There are allied Masonic degrees, not extant nationally. If you do an internet search, you will find easily over 100 different groups that are affiliated with Masonry, or have a Masonic connection.


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> I said here is a PARTIAL list. There are many groups that are not national. The "Constellation" exists only in New York state. There are allied Masonic degrees, not extant nationally. If you do an internet search, you will find easily over 100 different groups that are affiliated with Masonry, or have a Masonic connection.




Citation to over 100?

So you agree that the number of side orders are expanding?


----------



## cemab4y

If you do an internet search, you will easily find over 100 appendant/concordant bodies. The royal order of Beauceant. The Daughters of Mokanna (wives of Grotto members), the heroines of Jericho,  the Memphis-Mizraim, and the "Rite of Memphis" has 99 degrees alone, the list goes on and on.

See:

Freemasonry

Order of Freemasons under the Grand Orient of the Netherlands
Order of Freemasons under the Grand Chapter of Higher Degrees in the Netherlands
Department of the Masters' Degree
Supreme Council of the 33rd and Last Degree of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite in the Netherlands
York Rite
Grand Chapter of the Holy Royal Arch in the Netherlands
Provincial Grand Lodge of the Royal Order of Scotland for the Netherlands
District Grand Lodge of the Mark Masters in the Netherlands
United Religious, Military, and Masonic Orders of the Temple, and of St.John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes, and Malta
Knight Templar Priests
Royal and Select Masters
Knights of York Cross of Honour
Order of the Red Cross of Constantine
Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia
International Order of Co-Masonry 'Le Droit Humain'
Dutch Grand Lodge of Co-Masonry
Dutch Association of Freemasons
Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis-Misraïm
Order of the Secret Monitor
Order of the Allied Masonic Degrees
Order of Eri
Knights Beneficent of the Holy City
Masonic Order of Athelstan
Order of the Knight Masons
August Order of Light
Order of St. Thomas of Acon
Adoptive Rite
Ancient Arabic Nobles of the Mystic Shrine (Shriners)
Ancient Egyptian Order of Sciots
Mystic Order of Veiled Prophets of the Enchanted Realm (Grotto)
Ancient Toltec Rite

Ancient Arabic Order of Daughters of Sphinx
Daughters of the Nile
Ladies Oriental Shrine of North America
Daughters of Isis
Daughters of Mokanna
Order of the Eastern Star
Order of the Golden Chain
Order of Rainbow for Girls
International Order of Job's Daughters
Order of the Amaranth
Order Star of Bethlehem
Order of the White Shrine of Jerusalem
Heroines of Jericho
Order of the True Kindred
Ladies of Knights Templar
Order of DeMolay
Order of the Builders
Swedenborgian Rite
Royal Order of Jesters
Order of Quetzalcoatl
Tall Cedars of Lebanon
National Sojourners / Heroes of '76
Social Order of the Beauceant


I will agree that the number of appendant/concordant bodies has increased in the past years. Considering the decline in Craft Masons in previous years, and the projected continuing decline, I do not foresee any major expansion in the number of appendant organizations. Statistical inference would lead me to forecast a concurrent decline in both the number of participants in the appendant bodies, and a reduction in the number of organizations.


----------



## Glen Cook

I'm relatively sure that the Nederlands groups aren't active in the US, but I could be wrong.  Rite of Memohis is not legitimately worked in the US. OSM is part of AMD in the US. I think you copied and pasted the wrong list. 

As you are giving your opinion on the side orders, in which are you involved?


----------



## cemab4y

When I say appendant/concordant groups, I mean ALL bodies which have a connection to Freemasonry. Whether they exist in the USA, or in one state, or in a foreign country. Many (but not all) of the groups in that list, are active in the USA.

I do a lot of international work. I have been working in Iraq/Afghanistan, and I am flying to Kuwait soon. I am a Craft Mason, and I belong to the Alexandria VA Scottish Rite bodies. I demitted from the Shrine some years ago. I was in the "Turtles" for a while. I took the classes to be a DeMolay advisor, but I was never a DeMolay in my teen years.

I do not claim to be an expert on all of the appedant/concordant bodies. As to my opinion, I think it is great, that there are so many different and varied groups in the Masonic family of organizations. Many (but not all) of the groups support a whole rainbow of charities.  One of my favorite is the Grotto, which has a program that provides free dental care to handicapped children.


----------



## Glen Cook

I agree that world wide, clandestine and irregular, there are likely a hundred. 

And, it appears that you are not involved with any side orders, regardless of their laudable programs.


----------



## cemab4y

Glen Cook said:


> I agree that world wide, clandestine and irregular, there are likely a hundred.
> 
> And, it appears that you are not involved with any side orders, regardless of their laudable programs.




See my previous posting:

quote  I belong to the Alexandria VA Scottish Rite bodies. unquote.  And see my signature at the end of this posting.

I have been a Scottish Rite Mason since 1988 (not continuously). The Scottish Rite (southern jurisdiction USA) supports several charitable programs. Our principal charity is a network of childhood speech/language/hearing disorder clinics. I do a lot of work in foreign locations, and I am unable to participate in Masonry, and the appendant bodies, when I am living in a country like Kuwait, where Masonry is illegal.

Once I am finished with international work, I plan to be very active in the Shrine. When I lived in Columbus OH, I was active in the Shrine, I belonged to five Shrine clubs, and I was president of one of them.


----------



## LAMason

@cemab4y 

Your modus operandi of "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with bs" doesn't work on people who are better informed than you are.

Quite frankly I find your bloviating and attempts at self aggrandizement tiresome.


----------



## Glen Cook

Brother Martin: you really can't just give a straight answer, can you? Whether about attendance at a Tyled PHA meeting or this question, you must obfuscate. No one asked about the Rite's charitable activities. No one asked about your future intent. You've told us repeatedly about travel for work in othe instances of avoiding a question . 

The fact is, your not involved in side orders.  I suspect you're not much involved in Masonry at all. 

  This is mid-April.  I will bet $100 to the  Salt Lake Children's Learning center you can't give simple direct one word answers to two questions:  How many Masonic meetings have you been to this year? How long have you been in the states since your last contract?


----------



## cemab4y

Here you are:

How many masonic meetings have I attended in 2015:
Zero.
(This is a one-word answer)

How long have I been in the USA since completing my last international contract?
I left Afghanistan, on 24 January 2014.
(  I have been on-call for immediate international departure. I am leaving for Kuwait next week)
I cannot answer the second question with a one-word answer, so you win.

I am "involved" with the Alexandria VA Scottish Rite. My only involvement is my membership.


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> Here you are:
> 
> How many masonic meetings have I attended in 2015:
> Zero.
> (This is a one-word answer)
> 
> How long have I been in the USA since completing my last international contract?
> I left Afghanistan, on 24 January 2014.
> (  I have been on-call for immediate international departure. I am leaving for Kuwait next week)
> I cannot answer the second question with a one-word answer, so you win.
> 
> I am "involved" with the Alexandria VA Scottish Rite. My only involvement is my membership.


See, I knew you couldn't give one word answers. You could have said zero and app 15 months. 

But the point is that you really aren't involved in Freemasonry. You are an Internet Mason. You put forth opinions about what GL policies are, the state of appendent bodies, what programs are in place, but you don't really know because you aren't involved, as demonstrated by your forced, still slightly obfuscating answers.


----------



## crono782

I'm seeing fewer and fewer constructive replies in this thread related to "what would you like to see changed in the Masonic experience" and more hashing out aggravations. Hit the reset button and get the topic back on track or leave it be please.


----------



## cemab4y

I must agree. Let's keep the discussions on point, and within the scope of the topic.


----------



## cemab4y

“I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.” 

― Thomas Jefferson

This statement could easily apply to Freemasonry


----------



## cemab4y

One cause, that I would love to see Masonry (and possibly the appendants) take up, is adult literacy. It sounds incredible, but there are estimated 45 million adults in the USA that are functionally illiterate. See:

http://literacyprojectfoundation.org/community/statistics/

Freemasons were responsible for the first "free" (tax supported) public schools in the American colonies. Horace Mann (freemason) was a pioneer in educational reform, and his ideas changed the entire structure of elementary education in Massachusetts, and the entire USA. Masonry has a splendid tradition of supporting education.

We could use our lodge buildings to have classes, to teach reading skills to people. We could assist people who wish to read, with administrative support, books, etc.

Literacy is cost-effective. Illiteracy costs US taxpayers an estimated $20 Billion per year.

This would be a great project, and a way to continue our tradition. What do you think?


----------



## Companion Joe

I'm all for it. As a high school teacher, I can tell you first hand this is a worthy idea. We have an older member in our lodge whose reading and writing ability are very, very rudimentary. I have quietly offered to help him, but he always declines, saying he is too old. 

I'd love it if we could work on some simple spelling and word usage for people who post on internet forums (this one included). I read some things, and it makes me cringe.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...Freemasons were responsible for the first "free" (tax supported) public schools in the American colonies...



Citation please.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...Horace Mann (freemason) was a pioneer in educational reform, and his ideas changed the entire structure of elementary education in Massachusetts, and the entire USA....



Individual Masons have always been involved in a lot of worthy endeavors, but that doesn't mean that they were Masonic projects.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...This would be a great project, and a way to continue our tradition. What do you think?



How do you think Masonry could be more effective than what is already being done by Federal and State Governments?

http://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk1/1993/9303/930307.PDF


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> One cause, that I would love to see Masonry (and possibly the appendants) take up, is adult literacy. It sounds incredible, but there are estimated 45 million adults in the USA that are functionally illiterate. See:
> 
> http://literacyprojectfoundation.org/community/statistics/
> 
> Freemasons were responsible for the first "free" (tax supported) public schools in the American colonies. Horace Mann (freemason) was a pioneer in educational reform, and his ideas changed the entire structure of elementary education in Massachusetts, and the entire USA. Masonry has a splendid tradition of supporting education.
> 
> We could use our lodge buildings to have classes, to teach reading skills to people. We could assist people who wish to read, with administrative support, books, etc.
> 
> Literacy is cost-effective. Illiteracy costs US taxpayers an estimated $20 Billion per year.
> 
> This would be a great project, and a way to continue our tradition. What do you think?


As much as I am FOR education in general, I believe your suggestion to be yet one more distraction that is offered up which keeps members focused upon things that Freemasonry has no business engaging in.  The organization is plagued by distractions. This includes attached bodies that do nothing toward making good men Better.  Sure, they might support some charitable cause, but they do not deliberately undertake the task of supporting betterment of the members.  If you analyze what was done in the case of Brother Mann, the system he created was outside the organizational construct, as it should be.  When the organization makes a man Better, he takes that betterment into the world and builds things that are not appended on the organization.  What is built is separate; as it should be.


----------



## LAMason

LAMason said:


> Citation please.



Of course you can not supply a citation because it is not true.

Boston Latin School, the first public school in America was established by Puritan settlers in 1635, http://www.cityofboston.gov/freedomtrail/firstpublic.asp, which predates by some 85 years “The first Lodge meeting in the western hemisphere, the knowledge of which is supported by something more than pure tradition, was probably held in King’s Chapel, Boston, in 1720.” http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/history/first.html.

I don't know if you just make this stuff up on your own or read it on the internet and begin spreading it.  A man I used to work with said he had a boss one time that would tell a lie 3 times and it would become the truth in his mind.


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> Citation please.



SEE:

https://www.freemason.org/doc/Masonry and Public Schools.pdf?id=2414

http://www.themasonictrowel.com/masonic_talk/stb/stbs/90-11.htm

http://www.msana.com/historyfm.asp

http://www.thearda.com/asrec/archive/papers/egel_freemasonry.pdf


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> Individual Masons have always been involved in a lot of worthy endeavors, but that doesn't mean that they were Masonic projects.



See the links that I sent to you. The impact of Freemasonry and Freemasons on the establishment of public education in this country is undeniable. From Massachusetts to California, Masons have been front and center in the development and establishment of public education in the USA, and even before there was a USA.




LAMason said:


> How do you think Masonry could be more effective than what is already being done by Federal and State Governments?
> 
> http://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk1/1993/9303/930307.PDF




Two words that never go together are "effective" and "government". The federal and state government runs:

Obamacare
AMTRAK
The postal service
The public school system
etc.

I used to be a federal employee. Take my word for it, the federal government is no place to look for "effective" or "efficient". The federal government is $18 TRILLION dollars in debt. They can't even figure how to balance the budget.

The federal government could not stop 19 thugs from hijacking the aircraft that crashed into the twin towers on Sept 11,2001 (and the two other planes). The federal government cannot keep drugs out of our country. The state governments cannot keep drugs out of the public schools and prisons. The federal government has spent many trillions of dollars on poverty programs (Remember LBJ's war on poverty? Poverty won), there are more people living in poverty now, since before the war on poverty. And remember the war in Vietnam? The US government could not defeat a fifth-rate bunch of rice farmers with bamboo sticks. Anyone who looks to government to solve problems is fooling themselves.

The public school systems in the USA are a disaster. Already, an estimated 45 million American adults cannot read at an 8th grade level.

The government operated schools are responsible for this. Can anyone think that the government can really make a significant impact in improving the literacy rate in the USA?

I believe sincerely, that individuals and non-government organizations can and should take the lead on this.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> Freemasons were responsible for the first "free" (tax supported) public schools in the American colonies.


I may have missed it, but I did not find anything in the links you posted that supports the statement you made.



cemab4y said:


> From Massachusetts to California, Masons have been front and center in the development and establishment of public education in the USA, and even before there was a USA.



Individual Masons, not Grand Lodges/Lodges.  Freemasonry as an organization can not lay claim the the accomplishments of individual Masons.



cemab4y said:


> "The public school systems in the USA are a disaster."
> 
> "an estimated 45 million American adults cannot read at an 8th grade level."
> 
> "The government operated schools are responsible for this"



There certainly are some very bad public school systems in the USA, but there are also some very good public school systems in the USA.  I have 3 Grandchildren in public schools right now, and they always score in the 95-99 percentiles on standardized tests.  I have 2 daughters that were educated mostly in public schools, one has a PhD and the other has her Masters degree.  I value education very highly, I have 2 undergraduate degrees and 2 Masters degrees and my wife has a Masters degree.  One of my undergraduate degrees and one of my Masters degrees are in Secondary School Administration, I taught Math to students ranging from 6th grade to High School and served as an Assistant Principal before I changed careers in my late 20s.  My wife's undergraduate and Masters degrees were in education and she also taught in the public schools. So, since you have such a negative view of public education were/are your children and grandchildren educated/being educated in private schools.

Again, while there are some bad public school systems in the USA, I can tell you from experience that the primary causes for poor academic performance by most students are environmental and mental ability.  If you have a fix for that you really should share it.



cemab4y said:


> Can anyone think that the government can really make a significant impact in improving the literacy rate in the USA?


To think that Grand Lodges/Masonic Lodges can really make a significant impact in improving the literacy rate in the USA is a pipe dream.



cemab4y said:


> I believe sincerely, that individuals and non-government organizations can and should take the lead on this.[



Just because you "sincerely" believe it does not make it so.

*EDIT:  Just to clarify, I know there is a place for non profits in this and other needs we have in this country and I volunteer for 2 non profits myself, one supporting the homeless community and another that mentors small business owners and business startups.  As far as the literacy problem there are many non profits doing good work in this area that are specifically equipped to handle this problem.  Here is a list of a few:  http://www.goodnet.org/articles/463.  *


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> I may have missed it, but I did not find anything in the links you posted that supports the statement you made.
> 
> See:
> 
> 
> _*The first way that Freemasons affected the expansion of public education in the United*
> 
> *States was through the direct funding and construction of high schools, universities and other*
> 
> *types of schools. De Witt Clinton, who was Grand Master of New York, established the New*
> 
> *York Free School Society in 1809. This society provided free education to Freemason children*
> 
> *with voluntary donations from Freemasons. In addition to providing free education to over*
> 
> *600,000 students and training 1,200 teachers before its closure in 1854, this Society served*
> 
> *as a model for development of the public education system in New York and donated its*
> 
> *buildings and equipment to the public school system that had been founded in 1842 (Mackey*
> 
> *and Haywood 2003, p. 817).*
> 
> 
> *Another example of the direct role that Freemasonry played in the actual construction*
> 
> *of public schools is provided by Woods (1936). Responding to a growing divide in the access*
> 
> 
> *to public education between the North and the South during this period, the Masons of*
> 
> *eleven southern states were directly responsible for the construction of some 88 educational*
> 
> *institutions during the 1840s and 1850s.10 18 of these were schools were colleges which*
> 
> *represented nearly 10% of all colleges in these states.11 Further support of the importance of*
> 
> 
> *public education to the Masons is that graduates of these universities, which were either free*
> 
> *or reasonably inexpensive, were either required or strongly encouraged to become teachers*
> 
> *in common schools.*
> 
> *10Woods (1936) notes that the motivation for this school construction was that \public education in the*
> 
> *South was much slower in getting under way".*
> 
> *11The state census records indicates that there were a total of 212 colleges in 1860 in the 11 states covered*
> 
> *byWoods (1936). These 18 schools were distributed across the 11 states as follows (the rst number indicates*
> 
> *the number of colleges built by Freemasons and the second number is the total number of colleges in that*
> 
> *state): Alabama (3/17), Arkansas (1/4), Florida (0/0), Georgia (5/32), Kentucky (3/20), Mississippi (1/13),*
> 
> *Missouri (1/36), North Carolina (1/16), South Carolina (1/14), Tennessee (4/35), Texas (1/25).*_
> 
> 
> Individual Masons, not Grand Lodges/Lodges.  Freemasonry as an organization can not lay claim the the accomplishments of individual Masons.
> 
> *--I have never said, and I am not saying now, that any Lodge or Grand Lodge, is responsible for establishing public education in the Americas. BUT- Many individual Masons have remarkable accomplishments, and our Craft should be justifiably proud of this. Supporting and expanding education is one of our splendid traditions, and we can expand it to adult literacy. *
> 
> 
> 
> There certainly are some very bad public school systems in the USA, but there are also some very good public school systems in the USA.  I have 3 Grandchildren in public schools right now, and they always score in the 95-99 percentiles on standardized tests.  I have 2 daughters that were educated mostly in public schools, one has a PhD and the other has her Masters degree.  I value education very highly, I have 2 undergraduate degrees and 2 Masters degrees and my wife has a Masters degree.  One of my undergraduate degrees and one of my Masters degrees are in Secondary School Administration, I taught Math to students ranging from 6th grade to High School and served as an Assistant Principal before I changed careers in my late 20s.  My wife's undergraduate and Masters degrees were in education and she also taught in the public schools. So, since you have such a negative view of public education were/are your children and grandchildren educated/being educated in private schools.
> 
> *( I have no children, nor grandchildren. If I did, I would be glad to send them to Fairfax County public schools)*
> 
> --*I am glad that your experiences have been so positive. I live in the WashDC metro area. Fairfax and Loudoun county (VA) have some excellent public schools. The District of Columbia spends $10,000 per pupil per year, and their public schools are a train wreck. Out of 100 Senators, 435 Representatives, and the Supreme Court, NONE send their children to DC public schools. President Obama sends his daughter*s t*o Sidwell Friends.
> As far as I am concerned, sending a child to DC public schools, is an act of child abuse. *
> 
> Again, while there are some bad public school systems in the USA, I can tell you from experience that the primary causes for poor academic performance by most students are environmental and mental ability.  If you have a fix for that you really should share it.
> 
> --*I am an engineer, not an academician. Myself, I support school choice, and vouchers. Break the teacher's unions. Here is an interesting link:
> 
> http://www.redefinedonline.org/2014/08/survey-1-in-5-school-teachers-send-kids-to-private-schools/
> 
> According to this survey, 28% of public school teachers send their own children to private schools (or have done so in the past), and 19% do so now. If that statistic alone does not make it clear to you, what will?
> 
> Public schools are run by the government.
> "Government is like fire, a dangerous servant, and a terrible master" - George Washington, Freemason*
> 
> 
> To think that Grand Lodges/Masonic Lodges can really make a significant impact in improving the literacy rate in the USA is a pipe dream.
> 
> --*Why not? A national program, perhaps working with other NGO's and with private funding, might work.*
> 
> 
> 
> Just because you "sincerely" believe it does not make it so.
> 
> --*I am not  saying this as a fact. I believe it , notwithstanding.*
> 
> *EDIT:  Just to clarify, I know there is a place for non profits in this and other needs we have in this country and I volunteer for 2 non profits myself, one supporting the homeless community and another that mentors small business owners and business startups.  As far as the literacy problem there are many non profits doing good work in this area that are specifically equipped to handle this problem.  Here is a list of a few:  http://www.goodnet.org/articles/463.  *



--*Splendid. I wish them well.*


----------



## dfreybur

There existed individual schools paid for by taxes before Masonic involvement.  Therefore Masonry was not the first meaning initial.  This is the primary meaning of the word first.

In the US Masonry led the movement for public school systems to become universal across the country.  Therefore Masonry was the first meaning in the lead. This is a secondary meaning for the word first.


----------



## cemab4y

Let's not let this degenerate into a discussion of how lousy the public schools (some of them) in the USA are. Let's keep it on point. The illiteracy rate in this country is a disgrace. It costs our economy $20 BILLION per year. It affects our national security, and economy. Can lodges/Grand Lodges help and assist people in learning how to read? I believe it can be done.

Let's not get into a semantic debate, either. Masons, Lodges, and Grand Lodges, and Grand Masters (ex: DeWitt Clinton of New York) have been in the forefront of establishing and expanding public education, since before we were a nation. Today, there are Masonic (affiliated) organizations like the Wolcott Foundation (High-Twelve), which provide academic scholarships for students to earn graduate degrees, at George Washington University.

see  http://www.wolcottfoundation.com/index.html  and http://www.high12.org/


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> As much as I am FOR education in general, I believe your suggestion to be yet one more distraction that is offered up which keeps members focused upon things that Freemasonry has no business engaging in.
> 
> ==*See the links I listed. If you know the history of Freemasonry's support for education, how can anyone believe that Freemasonry should not continue to be involved? Lodges, Grand Lodges, and some of the appendants finance scholarship programs. *
> 
> 
> The organization is plagued by distractions. This includes attached bodies that do nothing toward making good men Better.
> 
> ==*Most of the appendants are not interested in making good men better. Some of the appendants are for fun and fellowship (e.g. The Shrine). Some are for academic research (e.g. the COMILOR). I used to be a "Hillbilly".  My wife and I would go out in the boondocks, and have a barbecue, and drink white lightning, and whoop it up all night. Did this make me a better man? No, but I had fun and fellowship. *
> 
> Sure, they might support some charitable cause, but they do not deliberately undertake the task of supporting betterment of the members.
> 
> ==*Absolutely! Consider the Grotto, it is a fun organization that provides dental services to handicapped children. The Grotto makes no pretense about self improvement. *
> 
> 
> If you analyze what was done in the case of Brother Mann, the system he created was outside the organizational construct, as it should be.  When the organization makes a man Better, he takes that betterment into the world and builds things that are not appended on the organization.  What is built is separate; as it should be.


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> As much as I am FOR education in general, I believe your suggestion to be yet one more distraction that is offered up which keeps members focused upon things that Freemasonry has no business engaging in.
> 
> ==*See the links I listed. If you know the history of Freemasonry's support for education, how can anyone believe that Freemasonry should not continue to be involved? Lodges, Grand Lodges, and some of the appendants finance scholarship programs. *


I saw the links that you listed.  I do know the history.  Your generalization of my comment is illegitimately characterizing my response and it misleads.  I was clear.  What you are suggesting in your post ...

_[re: We could use our lodge buildings to have classes, to teach reading skills to people. We could assist people who wish to read, with administrative support, books, etc.]_​
...is a distraction and should not be part of what the lodge currently does.  I do not see your suggestion as continued involvement for the better.  It is NOT what the lodge does.  If a Lodge did its job, it would produce many men capable of making this occur OUTSIDE the organization. As it is now, most lodges don't do their job well.  Hence the problems that currently plague the society.  Well, that and the hundreds of superfluous distractions.



cemab4y said:


> The organization is plagued by distractions. This includes attached bodies that do nothing toward making good men Better.
> 
> ==*Most of the appendants are not interested in making good men better. *



I'm so very glad that you can both see and admit to this.


----------



## JJones

I wouldn't be interested in such a program.  There are already countless causes being championed by innumerable organizations, the majority of which were probably actually founded with their primary cause in mind.  Freemasonry is here to take men, who are already good, and help them to improve. 
 Such good men are free to join these other organizations we have just mentioned, and that's wonderful if they do, however I'm in agreement with Coach on the matter and, furthermore, I don't always feel as though we're doing a very good job with what we've already set out to do as it is.


----------



## cemab4y

OK, If Freemasonry (Grand Lodges/lodges) should not assist in the cause of adult literacy, then maybe one of the appendants could take it up. Freemasonry has for many years, been assisting in educational causes. Our lodges/GLs support scholarship programs. I am 1000% in favor of continuing to assist worthy individuals in obtaining college educations. The HighTwelve/Wolcott foundation a terrific program, enabling students to obtain graduate degrees in Public Service at George Washington University. With the rising cost of college, I believe we should expand our existing programs.

Many lodges make their buildings available to other programs and other organizations. Our buildings sit empty most of the time. I believe that we can keep true to our traditions, and also provide administrative and logistical support to adult literacy programs.

I am not an expert on the myriad of appendant bodies. I am familiar with the Shrine. Most people equate the Shrine with the hospital program. Of course, the Shriner's hospitals are fabulous. But people sometimes overlook, that the Shrine was started in 1872, as an organization where Masons could enjoy fine dining and fellowship with their wives. The first Shrine hospital opened in 1922, fifty years later.


----------



## cemab4y

Companion Joe said:


> I'm all for it. As a high school teacher, I can tell you first hand this is a worthy idea. We have an older member in our lodge whose reading and writing ability are very, very rudimentary. I have quietly offered to help him, but he always declines, saying he is too old.
> 
> I'd love it if we could work on some simple spelling and word usage for people who post on internet forums (this one included). I read some things, and it makes me cringe.



==*Thanks for your comments. I am delighted to see that there are Masons who are supportive. Our lodges sit empty most of the time. I believe that we could serve as a catalyst. Our grand lodges (or an appendant) could work to set up adult literacy programs. We could  get volunteer teachers and provide the textbooks. Then our lodges could contact community organizations to get the word to potential students. 

"The opposite of civilization is indifference" - Elie Wiesel, Holocaust survivor and Nobel prize winner *


----------



## coachn

When any GL or Lodge wants to make a significant difference for the world and to the members of the organization, each should start wholly supporting the Work that is spelled out within the first three degrees.  And I am not talking about just memorizing and performing Ritual.  I'm talking about all the things that Ritual points toward that are supposed to make the members "Masterful". Until any one of them does so, each is distracted from what it professes to be important to its members.  You want to start any program that helps?  Focus upon the Work that Ritual espouses first!


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> When any GL or Lodge wants to make a significant difference for the world and to the members of the organization, each should start wholly supporting the Work that is spelled out within the first three degrees.  And I am not talking about just memorizing and performing Ritual.  I'm talking about all the things that Ritual points toward that are supposed to make the members "Masterful". Until any one of them does so, each is distracted from what it professes to be important to its members.  You want to start any program that helps?  Focus upon the Work that Ritual espouses first!



*--Supporting adult literacy, and self-improvement through Masonry are not mutually exclusive. Many GLs/lodges support community programs. And the appendants (combined with GLs/lodges) disburse about $2.6 million dollars per day in North America alone, for various charitable and humanitarian programs. 

I believe sincerely, that we can "multi-task". If GLs are unable to sponsor adult literacy, then maybe one of the appendants could pick it up. 

None of the appendants do the serious work of Freemasonry. The Rainbow and Job's daughters are for girls. The DeMolay is for young men. The Amaranth is co-educational. The Ladies Oriental Shrine is for women only. The huge majority of the charitable and humanitarian work is already performed by the appendants anyway. 

I like to compare the appendant/concordant bodies to a "cafeteria of organizations". Each individual is free to participate in any of the organizations which appeal to him/her. 
*


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> *...Many of the appendants do not do the serious work of Freemasonry. *



Can you name one appendant body that actually does do the serious Work of Freemasonry, other than "charity" work, which in all frankness, is not the "Work" but merely one of the "Results" of Freemasonic Work?


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Can you name one appendant body that actually does do the serious Work of Freemasonry, other than "charity" work, which in all frankness, is not the "Work" but merely one of the "Results" of Freemasonic Work?



Let's keep the discussion "on point".

The appendant/concordant bodies (generally) exist to provide their memberships with experiences that cannot be had in the tyled lodge, nor in the activities that most Masons engage in, outside the lodge.

The Shrine was started by several Freemasons in New York City, exactly to provide fun, fellowship, dining, moderate use of alcohol, for the members AND THEIR WIVES. These activities provide the "ying" to the Craft Lodge's "yang".  The Shrine hospital program started 50 years later, when the first hospital was opened in Shreveport LA.

The DeMolay was started by "Dad" Land, to provide wholesome activities and guidance (primarily) to fatherless boys in the Kansas City area. (Fatherless youth were not as commonplace in 1918, as they are now). .

Not all of the appendants engage in charitable work. Example: The Royal order of Jesters, motto is "Mirth is King".

Bottom line: The serious work of Freemasonry is for the lodge. The appendants are for fun, fellowship, support of youth, masonic research, etc.

You could say that the York Rite and Scottish Rite provide the participant with an insight into the historical, philosophical and esoteric "underpinnings" of Freemasonry. The Scottish Rite degrees are performed with great dignity, and are instructive to the audience. I feel that my SR experience has been extremely beneficial to my understanding of Craft Masonry. I like to think of the Craft Lodge as "vertical', and the SR as "horizontal".

If you try to find an appendant, which does the "serious work" of the Craft Lodge, you are fishing in a dry creek.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> Let's keep the discussion "on point".



That is a moving target when you are involved in a discussion and "on point" is defined by you.


----------



## cemab4y

The discussion on this topic, is about what would you like to see changed in the Masonic experience. And about what humanitarian work the various appendants are engaged in. I am justifiably proud of the charitable and humanitarian work that the appendants support. I am especially delighted with the educational endeavours and college scholarship programs. Freemasons and Freemasonry have supported education for many years, and this is great.

The masonic family of organizations could enhance this splendid tradition, by supporting adult literacy. If you think that Masonry should stay out of such activities, and be indifferent, that is your right.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> The discussion on this topic, is about what would you like to see changed in the Masonic experience. Not about what humanitarian work the various appendants are engaged in. I am justifiably proud of the charitable and humanitarian work that the appendants support. I am especially delighted with the educational endeavours and college scholarship programs. Freemasons and Freemasonry have supported education for many years, and this is great.
> 
> The masonic family of organizations could enhance this splendid tradition, by supporting adult literacy. If you think that Masonry should stay out of such activities, and be indifferent, that is your right.



You are the one that brought the "humanitarian work the various appendants are engaged in" into the discussion in an attempt to justify your position, just as you were the one who went on a rant about public education, the inadequacy of various government programs, and your dislike of teacher's unions.

Also if "adult literacy" is so important to you why don't YOU seek out an organization that does work in the area and volunteer.  Each of us can have an impact in our communities through volunteer work in organizations that are dedicated to specific causes.  There is no reason for us to try to reinvent the wheel, opportunities to "do good work" already abound, so why don't you put your money where your mouth is and volunteer yourself and not depend on Grand Lodges/Lodges to do something so you can be "justifiably proud" of the good that others do.


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> You are the one that brought the "humanitarian work the various appendants are engaged in" into the discussion in an attempt to justify your position, just as you were the one who went on a rant about public education, the inadequacy of various government programs, and your dislike of teacher's unions.
> 
> Also if "adult literacy" is so important to you why don't YOU seek out an organization that does work in the area and volunteer.  Each of us can have an impact in our communities through volunteer work in organizations that are dedicated to specific causes.  There is no reason for us to try to reinvent the wheel, opportunities to "do good work" already abound, so why don't you put your money where your mouth is and volunteer yourself and not depend on Grand Lodges/Lodges to do something so you can be "justifiably proud" of the good that others do.



--*I participate in volunteer work, primarily through my church. 

But, supporting education is a Masonic tradition. I think that our organization (and appendants)should examine this project, and if found feasible, picked up nationally.  There is very little that one person can do, but there is a lot that a national organization can do.

"Think globally, act locally" - Environmentalist slogan, that can easily apply to Freemasonry. 

*


----------



## crono782

Of all the things I would like to see changed in the Masonic experience, I'd have to say diluting it by trying to make Freemasonry something it's not isn't one of them. What you keep proposing amounts to staring up a new philanthropy and hope one of the appendant orgs picks it up. I wholly agree that those philanthropies should be just the bearing of fruit of what we teach by our members, not the Craft itself. I agree with some of the items in the original post, but this is not one of them. Proposing to further convolute the craft by muddying the waters of what it is suppose to be isn't the way to get stuff done. Perhaps what we should be doing is campaigns in Lodges that urge members to practice what we teach, in such ways as being a paragon in the community by starting illiteracy programs, etc. not by being the program itself.


----------



## crono782

Further, I'm not dogging Lodges who do blood drives and such. There is a big difference between a community service project that takes a weekend and a full blown philanthropy that requires lots of administration. Perhaps hosting an event on illiteracy with speakers vs creating an entire program. Get the idea?
Freemasonry's grand aim is not to be a charity or philanthropy, but to teach and inspire our members to deeds above the common man in his community and not micromanaging those deeds.


----------



## cemab4y

Freemasonry and the appendants distribute about $2.6 million dollars per day in charitable and humanitarian disbursements. This does not include the thousands of man-hours of "sweat equity" that individual Freemasons (and members of the appendants) donate. Lodges adopt a stretch of highway. Lodges pool resources to perform renovations on a handicapped persons apartment. The Grand Lodge of Kentucky operates a Masonic home, and a widow's home.

One of the fastest growing masonically-affiliated charities is the Masonic Angel Fund. see http://www.massfreemasonry.org/index.tpl?&ng_view=131
It was started in Orleans, Mass. and it has spread to 141 lodges in 13 states.


The Shrine hospital program began in 1922. The Job's daughters has a terrific program which receives donations of surplus hearing aids, and cannibalize the parts and return serviceable hearing aids to people who cannot afford a new one. The Tall Cedars of Lebanon support handicapped people, and people with degenerative muscle diseases.

Many members of the appendants are not masons. Not one single female member of the Eastern Star is a Mason. The Job's daughters/Rainbow/DeMolay have no Masonic members, only adult advisors.

Masonic charities support research into diabetes, atherosclerosis, hypertension, and diseases of the eye. The Scottish Rite runs a network of speech/language/hearing disorder clinics, nationwide.

I understand that many Masons are opposed to any changes at all. If you believe that everything is just fine, then this discussion is not for you.

If being involved in an organization, which does charitable and humanitarian work presents a problem for anyone, they should write to their lodge, and ask for a demit.


----------



## crono782

cemab4y said:


> I understand that many Masons are opposed to any changes at all. If you believe that everything is just fine, then this discussion is not for you.


You must have missed where I said "of all the things I would like to see changed..."
Try not to throw the baby out with the bath water here. Just because someone doesn't agree with one of your main talking point, doesn't mean that their entire POV is invalid, that's just the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears. The discussion remains "on point", as you are fond of saying.

I realize that it is easy to view Freemasonry as a giant conglomerate of philanthropies, but it shouldn't be hedged into that and I personally don't think we should be furthering that as the mission either. As far as appendant orgs go, I do think some should be shed, but not all are pointless or charity farms. Some still do maintain the goal to some degree or another. 



> If being involved in an organization, which does charitable and humanitarian work presents a problem for anyone, they should write to their lodge, and ask for a demit.



Kinda like being involved in an organization where some people are not tech savvy enough presents a problem, they should ask for a demit as well? 

I think rather, it is okay to have opinions and want to effect change without needing to condemn those who do not share your POV. We are a large enough fraternity to accommodate men of differing ideals.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

This discussion reminds me of something I heard recently.  In a moment of self reflection someone said "We all want to be famous but we aren't really good at anything".  Being "vicariously famous" my donating money, space in our Lodges, or even our free time does not seem like the answer to me.  First we should become "really good at something", perhaps Masonry.  This should help us to keep our egos out of the good works we do.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> Freemasonry and the appendants distribute about $2.6 million dollars per day in charitable and humanitarian disbursements.



I see that number (2.6 million dollars per day) bandied around on the internet, but I have never seen a spreadsheet or other supporting information as to who came up with it or how it was arrived at.  I know that Freemasonry certainly contributes a significant amount to various charities, but I also believe that if someone uses a specific amount they should also be able to demonstrate how that number was derived.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> Freemasonry and the appendants distribute about $2.6 million dollars per day in charitable and humanitarian disbursements. This does not include the thousands of man-hours of "sweat equity" that individual Freemasons (and members of the appendants) donate. Lodges adopt a stretch of highway. Lodges pool resources to perform renovations on a handicapped persons apartment. The Grand Lodge of Kentucky operates a Masonic home, and a widow's home.
> 
> One of the fastest growing masonically-affiliated charities is the Masonic Angel Fund. see http://www.massfreemasonry.org/index.tpl?&ng_view=131
> It was started in Orleans, Mass. and it has spread to 141 lodges in 13 states.
> 
> 
> The Shrine hospital program began in 1922. The Job's daughters has a terrific program which receives donations of surplus hearing aids, and cannibalize the parts and return serviceable hearing aids to people who cannot afford a new one. The Tall Cedars of Lebanon support handicapped people, and people with degenerative muscle
> 
> diseases.
> 
> Many members of the appendants are not masons. Not one single female member of the Eastern Star is a Mason. The Job's daughters/Rainbow/DeMolay have no Masonic members, only adult advisors.
> 
> Masonic charities support research into diabetes, atherosclerosis, hypertension, and diseases of the eye. The Scottish Rite runs a network of speech/language/hearing disorder clinics, nationwide.
> 
> I understand that many Masons are opposed to any changes at all. If you believe that everything is just fine, then this discussion is not for you.
> 
> If being involved in an organization, which does charitable and humanitarian work presents a problem for anyone, they should write to their lodge, and ask for a demit.



I thought



cemab4y said:


> The discussion on this topic, is about what would you like to see changed in the Masonic experience. *Not about what humanitarian work the various appendants are engaged* *in*.



but then I remembered "on point" is what you think supports your position and that you want it to be at the time of your post.


----------



## cemab4y

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> This discussion reminds me of something I heard recently.  In a moment of self reflection someone said "We all want to be famous but we aren't really good at anything".  Being "vicariously famous" my donating money, space in our Lodges, or even our free time does not seem like the answer to me.  First we should become "really good at something", perhaps Masonry.  This should help us to keep our egos out of the good works we do.



I have heard the expression: "You will be surprised at what can be accomplished, when you do not care who gets the credit". Most masonic charities get very little "press". Freemasons have supported humanitarian and charitable activities, since the days of operative Masonry. Most Masons, let alone the general public, are clueless about masonically-affiliated charities.


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> I thought
> 
> 
> 
> but then I remembered "on point" is what you think supports your position and that you want it to be at the time of your post.



The point of this thread is about change, and what changes people would like to see. Since the topic is about the possibility of adding an educational activity, It is "on point" to discuss the background of the charitable work performed by the Craft and the appendants. (I edited my response, since this topic is about the possibility of expanding another educational activity, it is appropriate to discuss other charitable and educational activities)


We are discussing the possibility of Masonry (or one of the appendants) picking up the cause of advancing adult literacy. Some (not all) Masons are opposed to charitable and humanitarian efforts. I once tried to get my home lodge (KY) to underwrite a public television  program. Since Masonry has supported public education for many years (some people dispute this fact), I thought this would be a way for our lodge to keep up with our splendid tradition in the modern age. I was almost scalped for even suggesting the idea.


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> I see that number (2.6 million dollars per day) bandied around on the internet, but I have never seen a spreadsheet or other supporting information as to who came up with it or how it was arrived at.  I know that Freemasonry certainly contributes a significant amount to various charities, but I also believe that if someone uses a specific amount they should also be able to demonstrate how that number was derived.



I have heard this dollar amount spread around. I am not a CPA, but I would think it would be very difficult to assemble an accurate figure. There are so many different Masonically affiliated charities, and so many lodges, with a small scholarship program, that assembling the data would be a chore.

The expenditures of the Shrine hospital program is huge. Some of the appendants sponsor medical research, and this is expensive.


----------



## JJones

So 2.6 million dollars a day would bring us close to about 950 million dollars a year (rounded up).  That's a lot of pancake breakfasts.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...I would think it would be very difficult to assemble an accurate figure...assembling the data would be a chore....


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> *coachn said: **↑**
> Can you name one appendant body that actually does do the serious Work of Freemasonry, other than "charity" work, which in all frankness, is not the "Work" but merely one of the "Results" of Freemasonic Work?*
> 
> Let's keep the discussion "on point".
> 
> The appendant/concordant bodies (generally) exist to provide their memberships with experiences that cannot be had in the tyled lodge, nor in the activities that most Masons engage in, outside the lodge. ...
> 
> Bottom line: The serious work of Freemasonry is for the lodge. The appendants are for fun, fellowship, support of youth, masonic research, etc.
> 
> You could say that the York Rite and Scottish Rite provide the participant with an insight into the historical, philosophical and esoteric "underpinnings" of Freemasonry. The Scottish Rite degrees are performed with great dignity, and are instructive to the audience. I feel that my SR experience has been extremely beneficial to my understanding of Craft Masonry. I like to think of the Craft Lodge as "vertical', and the SR as "horizontal".
> 
> If you try to find an appendant, which does the "serious work" of the Craft Lodge, you are fishing in a dry creek.


I am on point, and that point is that there are no appendant examples that you have offered that do the serious Work of Freemasonry, which, to be on point, is a change that I would like to see.  Perhaps we could start with the lodges themselves.  It sure would be an improvement over the currently offered business meetings.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...Freemasons have supported humanitarian and charitable activities, since the days of operative Masonry...



Citation please.


----------



## cemab4y

[


coachn said:


> I am on point, and that point is that there are no appendant examples that you have offered that do the serious Work of Freemasonry, which, to be on point, is a change that I would like to see.  Perhaps we could start with the lodges themselves.  It sure would be an improvement over the currently offered business meetings.




None of the appendant/concordant bodies do the "serious work" as you call it. No one disputes that. You would be surprised how many Masons tell me that business meetings are BORING. Like the old joke: A man walked up to a Mason, and asked him. "What do you in those Masonic meetings?". And he replied "In the regular stated meetings, I usually sleep".

One change that I, and many others would like to see, is meetings which are interesting, informative, and offer value to the members. I would like to see most of the routine business conducted in executive session, with a report back to the members, and posted on line. No point in reading the water bill, electric bill, etc.

Each meeting should have a speaker, with some Masonic or non-Masonic topic. If no speaker is available, a Masonic video from YouTube, or some other instructional video could be shown.


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> Citation please.



In the days of operative Masonry, the Masons ran a relief fund to assist distressed and worthy brother Masons, their widows and orphans. I suspect, that nearly all of the relief stayed within the Craft, and their dependents.

When Speculative Masonry started to take off in Europe, the Craft most certainly did not provide any humanitarian assistance outside of the  Craft.

My own Grand Lodge operated a widows and orphan home, the GL sold the orphan home many years ago.

Assisting the public, and running hospitals and speech clinics, is a recent phenomenon.

So, if you don't count some lapses, Masonry has supported charitable activities (at least within the Craft and their widows and orphans) since the time of operative Masonry.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

If you can't make your point with a Dilbert cartoon you don't have a point. - Dilbert Wisdom!


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

cemab4y said:


> One change that I, and many others would like to see, is meetings which are interesting, informative, and offer value to the members.


*Challenge.*  In how many meetings a year do *you* stand up and offer something which is interesting, informative, or has some other Masonic value?   Unless you mean that you are waiting for someone else to become a better man by doing the work, or that you are waiting for your GL to deliver a prepackaged education program to your door.  Don't just want Masonry to be better.  Make it better.   Don't wait for Masonry to get better, be better and make Masonry catch up to you!
*
Disclaimer: *I get to harp on this subject because I actually do stand and present something to the Lodge every time I attend.


----------



## cemab4y

I have not attended my home lodge, since my father's funeral in October 2010. I visit some Virginia lodges, when I am back in the USA. I returned from my last overseas contract in Jan 2014, and I am leaving for Kuwait next week.

When I was living in KY, I was a regular attendee at my home lodge. I made many proposals, and put forth several ideas that I wanted my lodge to consider. The only one they agreed on was to get a book "101 ways to improve your lodge". I suggested several things. I got copies of Masonic history videos from the GL of Oklahoma, no one was interested because "Masonry has existed for centuries without video". I wanted to set up a "Square and Compass" club. The Grand Master of KY called me at home and told me not to start one. It took me six months, to convince the lodge to get an answering machine, and the only way they would permit me to install it,
was if I disabled the answer function.

The GL of North Carolina already has an online training course for new Masons. No point in re-inventing the wheel, this program could easily be modified for other Grand Lodges.

I have been pushing for new ideas, and adaptations ever since I was raised on September 28,1982. I have offered to pay for the changes, and do the work. All I ever get is indifference.

I will never stop pushing for this Craft to make the necessary changes and adaptations to cope with the 21st Century.

"The truth is ugly, so we put our prophets in prison" - Charles Manson.


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## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> In the days of operative Masonry, the Masons ran a relief fund to assist distressed and worthy brother Masons, their widows and orphans. I suspect, that nearly all of the relief stayed within the Craft, and their dependents...
> 
> So, if you don't count some lapses, Masonry has supported charitable activities (at least within the Craft and their widows and orphans) since the time of operative Masonry.



A citation is the credible source where you got the information.  Rehashing what you said and stating what you suspect does not qualify as a citation. *So once again citation please.*


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## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> A citation is the credible source where you got the information.  Rehashing what you said and stating what you suspect does not qualify as a citation. *So once again citation please.*




Here is a respected source of Masonic history:

[URL]http://www.themasonictrowel.com/Articles/History/other_files/operative_freemasonry.htm[/url]



Q:  *They were an organized Community, therefore there were Officers, meetings and conferences. The Community had its own funds, its own religious observances, its amusements, feasts, sports, its social life, and cared for its own injured, crippled, dead, the widows, and orphans. End quote.*

]*and from the "Lodge of Happiness" (UK)*

*Q: From its earliest days, Freemasonry has been concerned with the care of orphans, the sick and the aged. This work continues today. In addition, large sums are given to national and local charities END Q*


[URL]http://lodgeofhappiness.org.uk/about-our-lodge/the-core-principles-of-freemasonry-brotherly-love-relief-and-truth[/URL]


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## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> Here is a respected source of Masonic history:
> 
> [URL]http://www.themasonictrowel.com/Articles/History/other_files/operative_freemasonry.htm[/url]
> 
> Here is the quote:
> 
> Q:  *They were an organized Community, therefore there were Officers, meetings and conferences. The Community had its own funds, its own religious observances, its amusements, feasts, sports, its social life, and cared for its own injured, crippled, dead, the widows, and orphans. End quote.
> 
> and from the "Lodge of Happiness" (UK)
> 
> Q: From its earliest days, Freemasonry has been concerned with the care of orphans, the sick and the aged. This work continues today. In addition, large sums are given to national and local charities END Q
> 
> See
> 
> [URL]http://lodgeofhappiness.org.uk/about-our-lodge/the-core-principles-of-freemasonry-brotherly-love-relief-and-truth/[/url]*


 
I never could get the Lodge of Happiness link to work, and themasonictrowel.com web page is certainly not credible.  It doesn't even list an author and much of what is stated is actually incorrect.  

Do you believe this information from that link?

"Architects were called Freemasons rather than Masons partly because they were in a fraternity and free to move about, partly because they worked in free-stone, and partly for a number of other and lesser reasons - the word in itself can tell us little about our history. These Freemasons designed and constructed the cathedrals, churches, chapels, monasteries, nunneries, palaces, guildhalls, borough halls, college buildings, forts, and other structures of a monumental type, for public purposes, which then as now, and everywhere, are architecture properly so called, and which stand far apart, almost in another world, from the simple structures of residences, stores, factories, barns, etc., which any man with normal skill and a few years of experience can learn to design and construct. The Freemasons were in a class apart from other Masons because their buildings were in a class apart from other buildings."

You do know you can't believe everything you read on the internet, right?


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## coachn

LAMason said:


> ..."Architects were called Freemasons rather than Masons partly because they were in a fraternity and free to move about, partly because they worked in free-stone, and partly for a number of other and lesser reasons - the word in itself can tell us little about our history. These Freemasons designed and constructed the cathedrals, churches, chapels, monasteries, nunneries, palaces, guildhalls, borough halls, college buildings, forts, and other structures of a monumental type, for public purposes, which then as now, and everywhere, are architecture properly so called, and which stand far apart, almost in another world, from the simple structures of residences, stores, factories, barns, etc., which any man with normal skill and a few years of experience can learn to design and construct. The Freemasons were in a class apart from other Masons because their buildings were in a class apart from other buildings."
> 
> You do know you can't believe everything you read on the internet, right?


This quoted conjecture has about as much credibility as an eleven dollar bill.  It might look great until you realize it has no value whatsoever. 

Yes!  I do not believe it.  I did at first, that is, until I did research and found out that it was pure unadulterated conjecture and that it has been re-quoted ever since it was originally put into print, and done so as if it were fact. It is not.

BTW - the only thing that Freemasonry has ever designed and constructed as an organization is franchise amateur theater that generates charitable contributions.  Stone-crafters did the design and construction of the quoted items.  Freemasons made plays about them, which did indeed place them in a class apart, but not for the reasons stated.

This is another thing that I would like to see change about the organization:  Getting real about what it actually does.


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## cemab4y

I have read the Masonic Trowel many times in the past. I accept most of the information there, to be reliable. I certainly do not believe _everything_ I read on the internet. I have researched Freemasonry extensively over the past 33 years. My research has led me to believe that the early operative Masons would come to the aid of distressed and worthy brother Master Masons, and their widows and orphans. If not with cash, but with in-kind assistance.

If you have information to the contrary, feel free to present it.

Everybody knows that the early history of operative Masonry is a mix of facts as well as part legend, part conjecture.


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## RyanC

I think we (Freemason) miss the point with a lot of thing, Charity begin one of them. We taught that charity to a mason should be very important, but Freemasonry as a origination should be not a Charity group.


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## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> I have read the Masonic Trowel many times in the past. I accept most of the information there, to be reliable. I certainly do not believe _everything_ I read on the internet. I have researched Freemasonry extensively over the past 33 years. My research has led me to believe that the early operative Masons would come to the aid of distressed and worthy brother Master Masons, and their widows and orphans. If not with cash, but with in-kind assistance.
> 
> If you have information to the contrary, feel free to present it.
> 
> Everybody knows that the early history of operative Masonry is part legend, part conjecture.



The research that you provided has been shown not to be credible, so do you have other sources that are credible to support your claim?   As the author of the statement the burden of proof lies with you.  If you can't prove it, you should qualify your statement by saying that it is just your opinion and that you can not provide credible sources to back it up.

If you "know that the early history of operative Masonry is part legend, part conjecture" why do you insist on trying to pass it off as fact?


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> The research that you provided has been shown not to be credible, so do you have other sources that are credible to support your claim?   As the author of the statement the burden of proof lies with you.  If you can't prove it, you should qualify your statement by saying that it is just your opinion and that you can not provide credible sources to back it up.
> 
> If you "know that the early history of operative Masonry is part legend, part conjecture" why do you insist on trying to pass it off as fact?




--*I have been studying Freemasonry for over three decades. I do not have any "primary sources", such as documents, or diaries, which reveal that operative Masons took care of each other, and their surviving dependents. Nevertheless, it can be reasonably deduced, that the men who built the great cathedrals and public buildings would look out for one another, in times of distress. 

I suggest we just drop it. *


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## cemab4y

One thing I would like to see more of in Masonry, is more informal associations outside the tyled lodge. I am talking about "Square and Compass" clubs, and "Widow's Sons" clubs. In New Hampshire, most (not all) lodges are dark in the summer months. Many (not all) NH masons join square and  compass clubs, and have barbecues and other events in the summer. The meetings are OPEN, and families and guests attend.


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## Ripcord22A

Why do u need a club to.do that?  Pick up the.phone and invite the brethren!


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## cemab4y

I lived in New Hampshire for a short while. The reason that New Hampshire masons set up "Square and Compass" clubs, is because under New Hampshire tax law, Masonry is considered a "fraternal organization", and as such has certain restrictions on fund-raising, and other activities like charity bingo games and such. A "Square and compass" club, can incorporate as a "non-profit organization", and be free to raise tax-free money with raffles, and bingo games,etc. When I lived in NH, a NH mason explained to me, that every member of his lodge was simultaneously a member of BOTH the lodge and the local Square and Compass club.

Keep in mind, that most NH lodges are "dark" , totally closed down from May through September. By having a separate organization, membership records, and the administrative functions can be handled separately from the lodge.

(Disclaimer: I am NOT an attorney, and certainly NOT an expert on New Hampshire tax law. I lived in NH in 1982, and the laws with respect to clubs, fraternal organizations and fund raising in the Granite State, may not be the same now. )


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## pointwithinacircle2

I would like to see more Masons taking individual responsibility for their own Masonic experience.


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## cemab4y

What do you mean? Freemasonry is (among other things) an organization of individuals. How can an individual take responsibility for a group/club/organizational experience ? It seems antithetical to me.


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## Glen Cook

coachn said:


> Can you name one appendant body that actually does do the serious Work of Freemasonry, other than "charity" work, which in all frankness, is not the "Work" but merely one of the "Results" of Freemasonic Work?


Rectified Rite.


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## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> Let's keep the discussion "on point".
> 
> The appendant/concordant bodies (generally) exist to provide their memberships with experiences that cannot be had in the tyled lodge, nor in the activities that most Masons engage in, outside the lodge.
> 
> The Shrine was started by several Freemasons in New York City, exactly to provide fun, fellowship, dining, moderate use of alcohol, for the members AND THEIR WIVES. .....



Citation that Shrine was started so wives could be involved?


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## coachn

Glen Cook said:


> Rectified Rite.


What's that and do Recognized bodies practice it?


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## coachn

cemab4y said:


> ...Freemasonry is (among other things) an organization of individuals. How can an individual take responsibility for a group/club/organizational experience ? It seems antithetical to me.


Freemasonry is a practice and it is not an organization of individuals.  An organization is a group of individuals.  Freemasonry is "what is practiced" once a group decides to Organize into a Lodge and to act like a Freemasonic Lodge.

To practice Masonry though, one must do more than practice Freemasonry.  Freemasonry is acting; or at least, that is how it is practiced in Lodges today.  Masonry is different.  It is Building as in Construction.  Building requires an individual to learn how to Build first; and more specifically, build himself.  That learning can be supported by a group, but it still has to be done by the individual.  No matter what "experience" a group tries to provide though, individuals are still responsible for their own learning and eventual doing.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> I lived in New Hampshire for a short while. The reason that New Hampshire masons set up "Square and Compass" clubs, is because under New Hampshire tax law, Masonry is considered a "fraternal organization", and as such has certain restrictions on fund-raising, and other activities like charity bingo games and such. A "Square and compass" club, can incorporate as a "non-profit organization", and be free to raise tax-free money with raffles, and bingo games,etc. When I lived in NH, a NH mason explained to me, that every member of his lodge was simultaneously a member of BOTH the lodge and the local Square and Compass club.
> 
> Keep in mind, that most NH lodges are "dark" , totally closed down from May through September. By having a separate organization, membership records, and the administrative functions can be handled separately from the lodge.
> 
> (Disclaimer: I am NOT an attorney, and certainly NOT an expert on New Hampshire tax law. I lived in NH in 1982, and the laws with respect to clubs, fraternal organizations and fund raising in the Granite State, may not be the same now. )



I do not have a problem with any Masonic Clubs, and if you would like to see more of them that is fine.  What I do have a problem with is your incessant spreading of misinformation in an attempt to curry favor for your proposals and appear to be an expert.

While many New Hampshire Lodges do go dark in July and August, they do not go dark from "May through September".  I did a quick search about New Hampshire Lodges and the only reference to New Hampshire Square and Compasses Clubs are in posts you have made on Masonic Forums.  I am not saying that there are not any Square and Compasses Clubs in New Hampshire because I do not know, but I do not find any mention of them, yet I do find other clubs mentioned such as Police Square Club, Sojourners, MMCI (http://www.1stmasonicdistrictofnh.com), so I find it odd if they are so prevalent in New Hampshire why there is no mention of them.

Another thing that is problematic is your frequent use of anonymous sources for your information to try to give cover for false information that you post.  Do you feel any responsibility to verify the information you post or are you so intent on attempting to appear so knowledgeable about all things Masonic that you just don't care?

For many years you have just thrown all this stuff against  the wall to see if it will stick and for the most part gotten away with it, but facts are stubborn things and they will come back to haunt you.


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## Carl_in_NH

Many NH lodges do go dark - most in July and August - but there are others that go dark in the Winter months to avoid spikes in heating bills. Some lodges may have other months when they go dark but I'm not an expert on the subject. I'm only aware of the schedules for the lodges I frequent.

S&C clubs are very common here as well; I'm a member of two of them. You might not find them in a quick Internet search, however, since they are often not referenced as S&C, but rather by lodge number - Club 7, for example. We as Masons also don't seem to have a large Internet presence here in the state - that's our own failing at the lodge level. I plan to rectify that for my lodge when I have a free moment or two.

I live in NH and am a Mason, but offer my insight without citation - you may disregard it if you so choose.


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## Glen Cook

coachn said:


> What's that and do Recognized bodies practice it?


See http://www.travelingtemplar.com/2013/01/the-rectified-scottish-rite.html?m=1

And yes

Also, add my AMD Council. We demonstrate degrees and move quickly through business.


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## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> I have read the Masonic Trowel many times in the past. I accept most of the information there, to be reliable. I certainly do not believe _everything_ I read on the internet. I have researched Freemasonry extensively over the past 33 years. My research has led me to believe that the early operative Masons would come to the aid of distressed and worthy brother Master Masons, and their widows and orphans. If not with cash, but with in-kind assistance.
> 
> If you have information to the contrary, feel free to present it.
> 
> Everybody knows that the early history of operative Masonry is a mix of facts as well as part legend, part conjecture.


Let's stay on point, please.


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## cemab4y

quote:   I am not saying that there are not any Square and Compasses Clubs in New Hampshire because I do not know unquote

I agree, you are not an expert on NH Masonry now, nor were you in 1982. I lived in NH in 1982. I agree that this was over 30 (thirty) years ago. When I lived there, it was explained to me about how NH masons joined square and compass clubs. The husband of one of my co-workers (I cannot remember her nor his name after 30 years), gave me a "crash course" in how his lodge, operated. He said that many NH lodges go dark in the summer months. I just concluded that since summer runs from June through August, that lodges were dark in those months. When I said "May through September", I meant from the end of May, through the first of September, Many people fix the end of summer at labor day, the first Monday in September.

I trust the men and women who tell me about Masonry, unless I have a reason not to. The man I spoke to 30 years ago, was a NH Mason, and I took his information to be factual. If I could remember his name, I would tell you.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> I agree, you are not an expert on NH Masonry now, nor were you in 1982.



And you are an expert on NH Masonry now and in 1982.


----------



## cemab4y

Glen Cook said:


> Citation that Shrine was started so wives could be involved?



Read the "Shrine Primer".

[URL]http://sahibshrine.org/shriner_primer.pdf[/URL]

see page 2 of the primer. Also page 10

My original post, which you quote might be misleading. Of course, I was not there in 1872. The original intent of the Shrine was to provide for fun and fellowship OUTSIDE the lodge. You can reasonably infer, that the members would include their wives in this aspect of the organization.

Today, the business meetings are closed to members only (only males, who are Shriners in good standing). BUT- The dining, parties, dances, tours, etc. are for the membership AND their ladies.

also see

[URL]http://www.beashrinernow.com/Tour/Family[/URL]

The Shrine. although there are no women members, and the  organization was not started for women, You can reasonably infer that wives were involved in the activities, almost from the beginning.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> Everybody knows that the early history of operative Masonry is a mix of facts as well as part legend, part conjecture.



I see you have edited this to include "a mix of facts", so how do you separate the facts from the legend and conjecture if you do not rely on a credible source?


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> And you are an expert on NH Masonry now and in 1982.



That statement is NOT correct, if you think that I am an expert on NH Masonry, you are wrong. I have never been a member of a NH lodge, and I have never attended a NH lodge. I lived in Hancock NH, and worked in Peterborough NH, during the summer of 1982, when many (NOT all )NH lodges are dark.  and I am certainly not an expert on NH Masonry neither now, nor in 1982.  I have, however attended NH Square and Compass club meetings, and talked at length with several NH Masons. I trusted the information they passed on to me, they had no reason to mislead me.


----------



## LAMason

Carl_in_NH said:


> Many NH lodges do go dark - most in July and August - but there are others that go dark in the Winter months to avoid spikes in heating bills. Some lodges may have other months when they go dark but I'm not an expert on the subject. I'm only aware of the schedules for the lodges I frequent.
> 
> S&C clubs are very common here as well; I'm a member of two of them. You might not find them in a quick Internet search, however, since they are often not referenced as S&C, but rather by lodge number - Club 7, for example. We as Masons also don't seem to have a large Internet presence here in the state - that's our own failing at the lodge level. I plan to rectify that for my lodge when I have a free moment or two.
> 
> I live in NH and am a Mason, but offer my insight without citation - you may disregard it if you so choose.



Thanks for the information, as a New Hampshire Mason, you have first hand knowledge.

Out of curiosity are the Clubs incorporated non profits or unincorporated associations?  Also, is one of their primary purposes for fund raising?


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...I trusted the information they passed on to me, they had no reason to mislead me.



The problem is not with the information that they passed on to you, but whether or not what you are passing on was in fact what they actually said.

Edit:  You do have a habit of making "reasonable inferences" and "reasonable deductions" from information that other people may not see as reasonable.


----------



## Carl_in_NH

I will have to ask about the incorporation status, as I'm uncertain.

Fundraising is part of it, as is fellowship outside of a tiled lodge; these clubs sponsor events that are open to family members as well as the public at large.


----------



## LAMason

Carl_in_NH said:


> I will have to ask about the incorporation status, as I'm uncertain.
> 
> Fundraising is part of it, as is fellowship outside of a tiled lodge; these clubs sponsor events that are open to family members as well as the public at large.



Thanks again, as a New Hampshire Mason you are uniquely qualified to provide insight.  I apologize for the questions, but I like to learn about other Grand Lodges, so I would like to pick your brain one more time.  Can these clubs raise money tax free when the Lodges can not?


----------



## Carl_in_NH

I shall check on the tax implications. 

One thing I'm aware of is that if the club holds an event, say a dinner with a speaker that is open to family and the public, dispensation from GL would not be required where it might be if the lodge proper were to hold such an event. Same is true for fundraising - an S&C club can hold a fundraiser without dispensation where the lodge proper would be required to obtain it. Of course such events are advertised as such, and are not true Masonic events - anything so declared would require approval of GL (or at least that is my understanding of the rules).


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

cemab4y said:


> What do you mean? Freemasonry is (among other things) an organization of individuals. How can an individual take responsibility for a group/club/organizational experience ? It seems antithetical to me.


I hope this question was directed at me because, well, thank you for asking.  I agree completely that Freemasonry is an organization of individuals.  I was taught that Freemasonry is structured around the individual.  Its purpose is to provide the individual with the tools and symbols necessary for personal improvement.  It _does not_ tell the individual Mason what to do with himself once he has become a better man.  That is up to the individual Freemason to decide.  This decision constitutes the "Masonic Experience".

I recall an old poem that goes something like this:

some ships sail east and some sail west
on the self same wind that blows
tis the set of the sail and not the gale
that determines which way she goes

It is not the observing of the wind, but the setting of the sail that determines the Masonic experience. 

There is another sailing story that might be pertinent here.  About 2500 years ago a wise man said something that translates roughly as: "If one does not know to which port one is sailing no wind is favorable". 

Early in my Freemasonic career I was rather bitterly disappointed by some of the things I experienced as a Mason.  Freemasonry, and my Lodge Brothers, were just not living up to my expectations.  I didn't know what to do.  I almost quit.  Instead I did something rather un-Masonic.  I thought to myself "To heck with these fraternal jerks, I can be a better Mason than all of them".  And that is exactly what I set out to do.  When no Brother could make time to teach me the ritual, I got a printed copy and sat at home and learned it by myself.  So, when the next man petitioned and all the "Senior" Brothers were scrambling around saying "Where can we find someone who can do the EA lecture, it was me, the newest and youngest Mason in the Lodge, who stood and said "WM, I can perform the EA lecture".  And that is exactly what I did.  And when I gave that lecture I felt something.  I felt both proud and humbled.  I felt the thing that I came to Masonry looking for.  I felt like a Mason.  I found the thing that I had expected the group/club/organization to give me, but I had learned that it cannot be given, it can only be earned.  The point here is that I chose a port.  I said "This is the Mason who I will become, and I will do it no matter which way the winds of my Lodge are blowing".   And that has made all the difference.

So, I encourage other Masons to do what I did, to step out, to take a risk, to face their fears, to be better than they think they can be.  To stand and take action as an individual Freemason.  I am sure there are other ways to receive the wages of a MM.  I just do not know any of them.

I hope that my Brothers will not find this rather self-revealing tale to be in bad taste.  It is a part of my story, and I only have one story to tell.


----------



## cemab4y

Interesting post. My experience in Freemasonry has been "uneven". I have had some terrific experiences, and some dreadful ones. I came into the Craft with a "tabula rasa" (blank slate). I really did not know what to expect, so I cannot say that I was disappointed.

I admire your pioneer attitude. We could use more of it in the Craft.

"You can always tell a pioneer. They have arrows in their backs" - unknown.


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> Read the "Shrine Primer".
> 
> [URL]http://sahibshrine.org/shriner_primer.pdf[/URL]
> 
> see page 2 of the primer. Also page 10
> 
> My original post, which you quote might be misleading. Of course, I was not there in 1872. The original intent of the Shrine was to provide for fun and fellowship OUTSIDE the lodge. You can reasonably infer, that the members would include their wives in this aspect of the organization.
> 
> Today, the business meetings are closed to members only (only males, who are Shriners in good standing). BUT- The dining, parties, dances, tours, etc. are for the membership AND their ladies.
> 
> also see
> 
> [URL]http://www.beashrinernow.com/Tour/Family[/URL]
> 
> The Shrine. although there are no women members, and the  organization was not started for women, You can reasonably infer that wives were involved in the activities, almost from the beginning.


No, I would not infer that and the citation doesn't indicate such. To the contrary. Indeed, their participation in parades was for years prohibited.


----------



## cemab4y

Get real. It depends on how you define "activities". Of course, no female, can actually BE a Shriner. But, the social activities, dining, dancing, picnics, and other such "activities" were open, and are open to the wives and families of the actual members. Of course, some of the social activities, in the 1870's were "stag". The original luncheon meetings at the Knickerbocker restaurant in New York City, were for the men, who would found the Shrine.


As far as participation in parades, I have participated in two Shrine parades, 1990 in Cleveland, OH, and 1996 in Kansas City. No women participated in either of those parades.

I infer that the dining and social activities are an integral part of the Shrine experience. Keep in mind, that most people associate the Shrine with the Hospital program. (And it is an excellent program). BUT- The Shrine was started in 1872, and the first hospital opened in 1922, fifty years later.

You infer otherwise, that is your right.


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> . Of course, some of the social activities, in the 1870's were "stag". The original luncheon meetings at the Knickerbocker restaurant in New York City, were for the men, who would found the Shrine.
> 
> .



Off topic parts snipped. 

Please get back on topic.


----------



## Glen Cook

What would I like changed?  I would like to see more Masons actually work instead of telling the real workers to do more work. Instead of proposing more and more programs, actually work some programs.   Instead of telling us all what is wrong with Freemasonry, get out there and fix Freemasonry.  Thems that can does.  Thems that can't posts.


----------



## cemab4y

> Glen Cook, post: 144266, member: 15599"]What would I like changed?  I would like to see more Masons actually work instead of telling the real workers to do more work. Instead of proposing more and more programs, actually work some programs.   Instead of telling us all what is wrong with Freemasonry, get out there and fix Freemasonry.  Thems that can does.  Thems that can't posts.



I would also like to see more Masons contribute to their lodges MORE than their dues. Contributions can take many forms, "sweat equity", driving the widows to the doctor, directing/advising youth groups, etc etc.

Society, demographics, economics, a declining membership base, are all forcing changes onto the Craft (and the appendants). We can manage these changes, or not.

I once volunteered to assist in the administration of a DeMolay chapter. I took the adult advisor classes, and supervised some of the activities. (Lazer tag games, etc).

The DDGM criticized me, for getting involved in the new DeMolay chapter. There was already a chapter in the local area.

I once offered to lead volunteers in my home lodge (KY), who wished to adopt a stretch of highway. Members of the lodge who were opposed to the project, and who never wanted to assist anyway, shot the project down.

When I was at Al Asad, Iraq. The military lodge at Speicher asked me to take over the leadership. I volunteered at once, I was delighted! I donated many hours to the project, obtaining all of the equipment to run the lodge. The GL of NY, told me that I needed to join a NY lodge, so that I could participate. I sent in $100, and joined Master Builder lodge in Tonawanda, NY. The GL directed me to send the charter back, to be displayed in the Masonic museum. The GL owns the charter, so I sent it back. I was promised, that the lodge would receive a new charter, next year (This was in December 2005). I never received a charter, and the lodge never operated at Al Asad. We set up a square and compass club, so that we could have snacks and soda pop, and fellowship.

I spoke with a brother Mason, who was a CPA in New Jersey, to get some advice about how we could order Masonic supplies. I got a blistering letter from the Grand Secretary of the GL of KY, for asking for advice from a Mason from a different GL.

Ever since I was raised (Sept 1982)., I have donated many many hours to the Craft (and the appendants), and attempted to start and run several projects. I have been criticized, bullied, everything except tarred and feathered, for serving the Craft. I wish I had a nickel for every time I have been told "We never did it that way before". My standard answer is "Then we are lucky, we get to go first!"


----------



## cemab4y

I honestly do not think there is anything seriously "wrong" with Freemasonry/appendants. Nevertheless, our Craft can make some changes, that will enhance the Masonic experience, and help to ensure our continued survival. Adding more daylight lodges, to accommodate our older membership base, is not really a change, more of an "adaptation". Being able to pay dues on-line through PayPal or Payliance, will not alter our ancient landmarks. Phasing out print newsletters, and publishing on-line only, is just a way of using current technology.

"How many Masons does it take to change a light bulb?" Answer- None, Masons do not believe in change. And if you tried to change it, everyone would say, that "we never did it that way before".


----------



## Glen Cook

cemab4y said:


> I would also like to see more Masons contribute to their lodges MORE than their dues. Contributions can take many forms, "sweat equity", driving the widows to the doctor, directing/advising youth groups, etc etc.


So, l.


cemab4y said:


> I would also like to see more Masons contribute to their lodges MORE than their dues. Contributions can take many forms, "sweat equity", driving the widows to the doctor, directing/advising youth groups, etc etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Self laudatory comments snipped!"



So, when did you last participate in any of these activities?


----------



## MRichard

Is it too early for a "Serenity Now" post? Lol


----------



## Glen Cook

Serenity is good, if I'm not too mad


----------



## Zack

cemab4y said:


> I would also like to see more Masons contribute to their lodges MORE than their dues. Contributions can take many forms, "sweat equity", driving the widows to the doctor, directing/advising youth groups, etc etc.
> 
> Society, demographics, economics, a declining membership base, are all forcing changes onto the Craft (and the appendants). We can manage these changes, or not.
> 
> I once volunteered to assist in the administration of a DeMolay chapter. I took the adult advisor classes, and supervised some of the activities. (Lazer tag games, etc).
> 
> The DDGM criticized me, for getting involved in the new DeMolay chapter. There was already a chapter in the local area.
> 
> I once offered to lead volunteers in my home lodge (KY), who wished to adopt a stretch of highway. Members of the lodge who were opposed to the project, and who never wanted to assist anyway, shot the project down.
> 
> When I was at Al Asad, Iraq. The military lodge at Speicher asked me to take over the leadership. I volunteered at once, I was delighted! I donated many hours to the project, obtaining all of the equipment to run the lodge. The GL of NY, told me that I needed to join a NY lodge, so that I could participate. I sent in $100, and joined Master Builder lodge in Tonawanda, NY. The GL directed me to send the charter back, to be displayed in the Masonic museum. The GL owns the charter, so I sent it back. I was promised, that the lodge would receive a new charter, next year (This was in December 2005). I never received a charter, and the lodge never operated at Al Asad. We set up a square and compass club, so that we could have snacks and soda pop, and fellowship.
> 
> I spoke with a brother Mason, who was a CPA in New Jersey, to get some advice about how we could order Masonic supplies. I got a blistering letter from the Grand Secretary of the GL of KY, for asking for advice from a Mason from a different GL.
> 
> Ever since I was raised (Sept 1982)., I have donated many many hours to the Craft (and the appendants), and attempted to start and run several projects. I have been criticized, bullied, everything except tarred and feathered, for serving the Craft. I wish I had a nickel for every time I have been told "We never did it that way before". My standard answer is "Then we are lucky, we get to go first!"


 

You left out all your efforts to establish a Masonic "employment bureau" and what about your efforts to get Masonic license plates and your advocacy for a
"national" GL.   
If I was as discontented with Masonry as you appear to be, I would resign.


----------



## LAMason

It is a hard life being the "lone voice crying in the wilderness".  If only everyone would realize that if every Lodge had a Facebook page and web page with online dues payment Freemasonry would return to its "glory days".


----------



## coachn

LAMason said:


> It is a hard life being the "lone voice crying in the wilderness".  If only everyone would realize that if every Lodge had a Facebook page and web page with online dues payment Freemasonry would return to its "glory days".


Well, these and having a few more visiting dignitaries lecture to the attending Brothers on getting out there and inviting non-attending Brothers to attend once again.  That would surely contribute to getting the organization back to glory.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

cemab4y said:


> "How many Masons does it take to change a light bulb?" Answer- None, Masons do not believe in change. And if you tried to change it, everyone would say, that "we never did it that way before".


Long ago I realized that you could effect the outcome of a debate if you could control the words used in the discussion.  For example, In your "answer" you used three plurals: Masons, everyone, we.  <Big Sigh>  Plurals discuss, Individuals accomplish.

Would you like to know how many Masons it takes to change a light bulb in my Lodge?  Answer - Nobody knows, because when no one was looking I just reached up, unscrewed the burned bulb, screwed in a new one, and walked away.  Yeah, it cost me 89 cents.  But listening to the Brothers say "duh, is there more light in here?" made it all worthwhile.  I used exactly the same strategy when it came to Masonic education.  I didn't ask permission or form a committee study the problem.  I just researched, organized, and presented.  By the time they realized what hit them I was sitting back down.


----------



## coachn

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Long ago I realized that you could effect the outcome of a debate if you could control the words used in the discussion.  For example, In your "answer" you used three plurals: Masons, everyone, we.  <Big Sigh>  Plurals discuss, Individuals accomplish.
> 
> Would you like to know how many Masons it takes to change a light bulb in my Lodge?  Answer - Nobody knows, because when no one was looking I just reached up, unscrewed the burned bulb, screwed in a new one, and walked away.  Yeah, it cost me 89 cents.  But listening to the Brothers say "duh, is there more light in here?" made it all worthwhile.  I used exactly the same strategy when it came to Masonic education.  I didn't ask permission or form a committee study the problem.  It just researched, organized, and presented.  By the time they realized what hit them I was sitting back down.


LOL!  I can SO relate!  I asked just once and got back: *Bro. Nagy, we don't need no masonic education books being written.  We have all the masonic education materials we need.*

That was just before I release Building Hiram (Volume 1 of 9 of the Uncommon Masonic Education Series).  I never looked back!


----------



## cemab4y

Glen Cook said:


> So, l.
> 
> 
> So, when did you last participate in any of these activities?



During my ten(10) years in Iraq/Afghanistan, I have been as active as I could be. This sounds like a cop-out, but it really isn't . Some Army commanders are delighted to have an activity like a S&C club. Some refuse any such activity at all.

Since my return to the USA in Jan 2014, I have not been active in my home lodge. (I live in Virginia, my lodge is in KY).

Since I was notified of my assignment to Kuwait, I have been researching Freemasonry in the emirate. I have tried to reach out to Masons who have served in Kuwait in the past. Once I arrive, I would like to set up a working lodge, but considering the experiences I have had in the past, getting a chartered lodge is not likely. I do plan to set up a "Square and Compasses" club, if the Army permits me to do so.


----------



## cemab4y

Zack said:


> You left out all your efforts to establish a Masonic "employment bureau" and what about your efforts to get Masonic license plates and your advocacy for a
> "national" GL.
> If I was as discontented with Masonry as you appear to be, I would resign.



I cannot remember every project, that I have contributed towards, in my 33 years of Freemasonry. I am proud to say, that I enjoyed every one of them. If I have contributed to the advancement of Freemasonry in a few small ways, then fine.

I am especially proud of my work, in getting Dr. Kafoglis to introduce and sponsor the legislation, to get Masonic license plates in KY. I never consulted with anyone at the Grand Lodge. If I did, they would have ignored the project, or else "talked" it to death.

One small nit-pick: I have NEVER advocated a "National" Grand Lodge. That is nonsense on stilts.

I am NOT discontented with Freemasonry. I have cherished my Masonic experience. My father and both of my Grandfathers were Masons. I have my grandfather's heirloom diamond Masonic ring, and I wear it with pride and remembrance of my family's Masonic tradition.

If you believe that am discontented you are wrong.

I will NEVER resign my efforts to improve and enhance the Masonic experience.

"_*It does not*_ require a _*majority to prevail*_, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> It is a hard life being the "lone voice crying in the wilderness".  If only everyone would realize that if every Lodge had a Facebook page and web page with online dues payment Freemasonry would return to its "glory days".



I have often endured much criticism for speaking the truth. I tell people that the membership numbers for Masonry, in most states and nationally, are declining. Many masons refuse to acknowledge this fact.

See  [URL]http://msana.com/msastats.asp[/url]  and decide for yourself.

If you believe that obtaining a web page/facebook page, and enabling members to pay dues on line, will return Masonry to the membership numbers enjoyed in the post-WW2 years, then you are mistaken.

I (and many others) believe that Freemasonry is ideal for the internet. Greater use of the internet, is vital in a "holistic" approach to a renaissance of the Craft.

see  [URL]http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/freemasonry_internet.html[/URL]


I am continually amazed at the number of Masons who are not convinced of the value of the internet.


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Well, these and having a few more visiting dignitaries lecture to the attending Brothers on getting out there and inviting non-attending Brothers to attend once again.  That would surely contribute to getting the organization back to glory.



These ideas have some worth! Most stated meetings are BORING. If meetings were more interesting, and the meetings offered VALUE to the membership, it follows that attendance will increase.

Iowa (and other states) have "rusty nail" and "rusty trowel" programs. There is even a "fun degree" that is performed. I believe that reaching out to our inactive members, is part of the "holistic" approach, that could lead to a renaissance. After all, if we cannot give value to our existing membership base, we will never be able to attract and hold new members.


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> These ideas have some worth! Most stated meetings are BORING. If meetings were more interesting, and the meetings offered VALUE to the membership, it follows that attendance will increase.
> 
> Iowa (and other states) have "rusty nail" and "rusty trowel" programs. There is even a "fun degree" that is performed. I believe that reaching out to our inactive members, is part of the "holistic" approach, that could lead to a renaissance. After all, if we cannot give value to our existing membership base, we will never be able to attract and hold new members.


Such a lecture would only be welcome if meetings were of value to those who would attend.  As a whole, they do not have value enough for a return, even if it were to go through a made up degree that is designed to make someone feel good about attending. Such activities have limited appeal.  Once you realize it's a theatrical society, you either accept this and joyfully participate OR you go elsewhere realizing you'll never get what you thought you were paying for.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> I am especially proud of my work, in getting Dr. Kafoglis to introduce and sponsor the legislation, to get Masonic license plates in KY. I never consulted with anyone at the Grand Lodge. If I did, they would have ignored the project, or else "talked" it to death.



This is a false claim that I debunked in another Forum.  Dr. Kafoglis did not introduce and sponsor the legislation.  Here is one of your many posts about it and my reply.





*cemab4y wrote:*

"…When I decided that Kentucky Masons should have the ability to obtain a Masonic license plate, I did NOT go to the Grand Lodge. If I had, they would have debated it to death, and said "We never had a license plate before", and the project never would have gotten off the ground.

I accomplished the task, by going straight to my state senator. I got a copy of the Pennsylvania legislation, and he just crossed out "Pennsylvania", and wrote in "Kentucky". He then submitted it to the legislature, for passage. Now the masons of Kentucky can get an official plate, and the Grand Lodge of Kentucky gets a $7 rebate on every plate sold."


When I first saw his claim, I thought it unlikely that a State Legislature would pass an act affecting the Grand Lodge of that state without some input or agreement from the Grand Lodge.Once the plate was authorized it would have to be designed and certainly that design would have to be approved by the Grand Lodge.The documentation required for authorization to purchase the plate would also have to be determined; again Grand Lodge input would almost certainly be required.Further if the Grand Lodge did not approve or consent to the plate then the Grand Master would in all likelihood issue an edict prohibiting their purchase or display by members of the Grand Lodge.

The claim that the Senator “just crossed out ‘Pennsylvania’, and wrote in ‘Kentucky’. He then submitted it to the legislature, for passage” is also highly suspect since the proposed legislation would be changing an existing Kentucky statute, the legislation would have to specifically reference the existing Kentucky statute.

After a little research it became obvious that there were inconsistencies in the story.While the legislation was introduced in 1992, it was not introduced by the Senator, it was a House Bill introduced by two representatives:

/LRC_Sessions/92RS/bills/hb731.htm (2 hits)



*HB 731/LM (BR 2269) - R. Adkins, R. Bentley *


AN ACT relating to special license plates. 
Create new section of KRS Chapter 186 to provide for special license plates 
for members of http://www.lrc.ky.gov/lrcsearch

While I am inclined to think the story is total BS, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and just say you must have had a “Brian Williams moment”.


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Such a lecture would only be welcome if meetings were of value to those who would attend.  As a whole, they do not have value enough for a return, even if it were to go through a made up degree that is designed to make someone feel good about attending. Such activities have limited appeal.  Once you realize it's a theatrical society, you either accept this and joyfully participate OR you go elsewhere realizing you'll never get what you thought you were paying for.




You should see:

[URL]http://grandlodgeofiowa.org/docs/Ceremonies/RustyNails.pdf[/URL]

[URL='http://[URL]http://grandlodgeofiowa.org/docs/Ceremonies/RustyNails.pdf']Reaching our inactive members, is a laudable goal. If we can get inactives back to lodge, and interested in their Craft, then the Craft will benefit. Many inactives have sons, grandsons, friends, etc. If we can one inactive member re-energized, it has the potential, to bring others into a knowledge of Freemasonry, and perhaps petitioning.

I believe also, that we should inquire of our inactive brothers, WHY are you inactive? Is there something lacking in your Masonic experience? Can you tell us what we need to differently? If we can find our the WHY, then maybe we can also determine HOW to make an inactive Mason, active again![/URL]


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> This is a false claim that I debunked in another Forum.  Dr. Kafoglis did not introduce and sponsor the legislation.  Here is one of your many posts about it and my reply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *cemab4y wrote:*
> 
> "…When I decided that Kentucky Masons should have the ability to obtain a Masonic license plate, I did NOT go to the Grand Lodge. If I had, they would have debated it to death, and said "We never had a license plate before", and the project never would have gotten off the ground.
> 
> I accomplished the task, by going straight to my state senator. I got a copy of the Pennsylvania legislation, and he just crossed out "Pennsylvania", and wrote in "Kentucky". He then submitted it to the legislature, for passage. Now the masons of Kentucky can get an official plate, and the Grand Lodge of Kentucky gets a $7 rebate on every plate sold."
> 
> 
> When I first saw his claim, I thought it unlikely that a State Legislature would pass an act affecting the Grand Lodge of that state without some input or agreement from the Grand Lodge.Once the plate was authorized it would have to be designed and certainly that design would have to be approved by the Grand Lodge.The documentation required for authorization to purchase the plate would also have to be determined; again Grand Lodge input would almost certainly be required.Further if the Grand Lodge did not approve or consent to the plate then the Grand Master would in all likelihood issue an edict prohibiting their purchase or display by members of the Grand Lodge.
> 
> The claim that the Senator “just crossed out ‘Pennsylvania’, and wrote in ‘Kentucky’. He then submitted it to the legislature, for passage” is also highly suspect since the proposed legislation would be changing an existing Kentucky statute, the legislation would have to specifically reference the existing Kentucky statute.
> 
> After a little research it became obvious that there were inconsistencies in the story.While the legislation was introduced in 1992, it was not introduced by the Senator, it was a House Bill introduced by two representatives:
> 
> /LRC_Sessions/92RS/bills/hb731.htm (2 hits)
> 
> 
> 
> *HB 731/LM (BR 2269) - R. Adkins, R. Bentley *
> 
> 
> AN ACT relating to special license plates.
> Create new section of KRS Chapter 186 to provide for special license plates
> for members of http://www.lrc.ky.gov/lrcsearch
> 
> While I am inclined to think the story is total BS, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and just say you must have had a “Brian Williams moment”.




The process of how the legislation was first considered by Dr. Kafoglis, and his instructions to me, are factual. Of course, there are some intervening steps, of which I was not brought in on. I saw the first draft of the legislation, and some of his notes. After that, I am really in the dark.

It is not without precedent, that a legislative act could occur, without the knowledge of the Grand Lodge. The bizarre situation in Arkansas is one example:

[URL]http://freemasoninformation.com/2010/03/grand-masters-ruling-hurtful/[/URL]

Arkansas got masonic license plates, and the GL of Ark, was completely in the dark!  Now, if an Arkansas Mason purchases a plate, and displays one, he will be expelled from Masonry.


----------



## cemab4y

One more thing, that I would like to see changed. I would like for there to be a fundamental change in attitudes. Masonry, is in trouble. Many masons are not convinced of the fact, but it is a fact. The truth is ugly. The number of members is declining. The age of Masons is increasing. Lodges are closing. In 2013, the Grand Lodge of Texas lost about 10% of their membership.

So many Masons I meet, tell me "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". If you are not going to acknowledge that there is a problem, you will make no effort to find a resolution.

Not everyone on board the Titanic, was convinced that the boat was sinking. It sank, notwithstanding.

"The truth is ugly, so we put our prophets in prison" - Charles Manson


----------



## JJones

The decline is a return to equilibrium.  This in itself would not be a problem were it not for the large financial obligations we took upon ourselves when were at our height.

In perceiving the decline as a problem, we have created more problems for ourselves in the hopes of increasing our memberships.  There are entire threads dedicated to ODCs and other matters of the sort so I won't delve into that here.  The only change Freemasonry needs is a change of mindset.  We need to stop trying to take something marvelous and turn it into something mundane to appeal to the masses.  Freemasonry isn't for everyone.

Also, there have already been two warnings on this thread that I know of.  We are here to discuss the masonic experience, not to attack each other's credibility and tear one another down.  This isn't masonic, despite  if we agree with one another or not, and has no place between brethren.  These forums are no exception.  If I see another negative post that I feel is directed towards another member then that'll be the end of this thread.

Please use this thread constructively or not at all.


----------



## cemab4y

JJones said:


> The decline is a return to equilibrium.  This in itself would not be a problem were it not for the large financial obligations we took upon ourselves when were at our height.
> 
> --*I agree that there a bunch of old Masonic buildings located in cities, that are in major financial difficulty. Sad.*
> 
> In perceiving the decline as a problem, we have created more problems for ourselves in the hopes of increasing our memberships.
> 
> *--The steps that some Grand Lodges have taken, like lowering the age to 18, and ODC's are not working. One Mason complained about the "flood gates being open". It seems to me, that the flood is going OUT. *
> 
> There are entire threads dedicated to ODCs and other matters of the sort so I won't delve into that here.  The only change Freemasonry needs is a change of mindset.
> 
> *--Are you serious? The ONLY change needed is a change of mindset? *
> 
> 
> We need to stop trying to take something marvelous and turn it into something mundane to appeal to the masses.  Freemasonry isn't for everyone.
> 
> *--Amen! That is why I am NOT interested in changing Masonry. I cherish the ancient landmarks. Masonry is certainly not for everyone. *
> 
> Also, there have already been two warnings on this thread that I know of.  We are here to discuss the masonic experience, not to attack each other's credibility and tear one another down.  This isn't masonic, despite  if we agree with one another or not, and has no place between brethren.  These forums are no exception.  If I see another negative post that I feel is directed towards another member then that'll be the end of this thread.
> 
> Please use this thread constructively or not at all.



---*I have believed for many years, that there are certain changes that Masonry can undertake, in the administrative and technological sphere, which will benefit the Craft. *


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑
> 
> Such a lecture would only be welcome if meetings were of value to those who would attend. As a whole, they do not have value enough for a return, even if it were to go through a made up degree that is designed to make someone feel good about attending. Such activities have limited appeal. Once you realize it's a theatrical society, you either accept this and joyfully participate OR you go elsewhere realizing you'll never get what you thought you were paying for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should see: http://grandlodgeofiowa.org/docs/Ceremonies/RustyNails.pdf
> 
> Reaching our inactive members, is a laudable goal.
Click to expand...


Yes, but doing so for all the right reasons should be paramount!



cemab4y said:


> If we can get inactives back to lodge, and interested in their Craft, then the Craft will benefit.



Yes, but will the returning members benefit as they want to?  You can't expect them to return to activity just because they went through another degree.



cemab4y said:


> Many inactives have sons, grandsons, friends, etc. If we can one inactive member re-energized, it has the potential, to bring others into a knowledge of Freemasonry, and perhaps petitioning.



Ah!  So you're not so much interested in having them return as you are in who they could potentially bring with them.  Interesting!



cemab4y said:


> I believe also, that we should inquire of our inactive brothers, WHY are you inactive?



That should be obvious.



cemab4y said:


> Is there something lacking in your Masonic experience?



Bingo!



cemab4y said:


> Can you tell us what we need to differently?



Nothing, other than being honest with what is truly offered.



cemab4y said:


> If we can find our the WHY, then maybe we can also determine HOW to make an inactive Mason, active again!



Perhaps your pursuit is the wrong one.  Perhaps the goal is to raise men and then send them out into the world, never to return.



cemab4y said:


> If anyone thinks that Freemasonry is a theatrical society, they are mistaken.



I can easily say that when someone thinks that Freemasonry is NOT a theatrical society, they are deluded.  ;-)


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Yes, but doing so for all the right reasons should be paramount!
> 
> --*What are the "right" reasons? I should think that bringing inactive masons, back into more participation should be a laudable reason in itself. *
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but will the returning members benefit as they want to?
> 
> *--This is going to vary with the individual. *
> 
> 
> You can't expect them to return to activity just because they went through another degree.
> 
> --*The "rusty nail" is a FUN degree, not a real operative degree of Freemasonry. Will an inactive Mason return to more participation due to one humorous experience in lodge? NO. I see it as part of a "holistic" approach, if a man is presented with reasons, and programs, and enjoyment and value, he will be more likely to wish to participate in his lodge. VALUE is what it is all about. *
> 
> 
> 
> Ah!  So you're not so much interested in having them return as you are in who they could potentially bring with them.  Interesting!
> 
> --*I see BOTH objectives as laudable and worthy. In the past, the sons of Masons, and the families and friends of Masons were much more likely to petition, than someone who was "cold", and had no Masons in his "circle".
> 
> "Anyone can count the seeds in an apple. Only God can count the apples in a seed"- unknown*
> 
> 
> 
> That should be obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> Bingo!
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing, other than being honest with what is truly offered.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps your pursuit is the wrong one.  Perhaps the goal is to raise men and then send them out into the world, never to return.
> 
> --*I do not see it that way. Sadly, this is what is happening! Masonry is losing more membership to demits, and resignations, than to deaths! Men join up and then are "cast adrift". They lose interest, and leave.*
> 
> 
> 
> I can easily say that when someone thinks that Freemasonry is NOT a theatrical society, they are deluded.  ;-)



--*After 33 years in the Craft, I do not think that our Craft is a theatrical society. *


----------



## crono782

As I have said in other threads, the decline in numbers is regrettable in some aspects, but I do not see it as necessarily a bad thing. I'd take less Freemasons over more members any day.

While it undoubtedly took many stones to erect the Temple, they were all required to be good and square work.


----------



## MRichard

cemab4y said:


> It is not without precedent, that a legislative act could occur, without the knowledge of the Grand Lodge. The bizarre situation in Arkansas is one example:
> 
> [URL]http://freemasoninformation.com/2010/03/grand-masters-ruling-hurtful/[/URL]
> 
> Arkansas got masonic license plates, and the GL of Ark, was completely in the dark!  Now, if an Arkansas Mason purchases a plate, and displays one, he will be expelled from Masonry.



I doubt that they were completely in the dark as it takes a long time to get a specialty plate. The funds going to a Prince Hall charity was the bigger issue and the fact that Prince Hall started the process and saw it through. Throw in the fact that they don't even recognize Prince Hall and now the picture becomes a bit clearer.


----------



## dalinkou

coachn said:


> LOL!  I can SO relate!  I asked just once and got back: *Bro. Nagy, we don't need no masonic education books being written.  We have all the masonic education materials we need.*
> 
> That was just before I release Building Hiram (Volume 1 of 9 of the Uncommon Masonic Education Series).  I never looked back!




"We don't need no..." indicates a desperate need for books.

I am going to get around to your series as soon as time permits.


----------



## coachn

dalinkou said:


> "We don't need no..." indicates a desperate need for books.
> 
> I am going to get around to your series as soon as time permits.


Yup.  When I heard it I knew exactly why my efforts were needed, even though the individual who made the statement would never benefit directly.  I knew too that this was a change effort that would benefit the Society as a whole.


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> That is why I am NOT interested in changing Masonry.


Yet, you post a thread  entitled "what would you like to see changed in the masonic experience"?  You must change what occurs in meetings if you're to keep the interest of those returning members.  You yourself said this in this thread.  Your words are conflicting.



cemab4y said:


> I cherish the ancient landmarks. Masonry is certainly not for everyone.


Yet, you wish to drag members, very satisfied with being dues payers only, back into meetings without first changing the very thing that caused them to stay away?



cemab4y said:


> ---I have believed for many years, that there are certain changes that Masonry can undertake, in the administrative and technological sphere, which will benefit the Craft.


Case in point: These are changes, that you are recommending to Masonry, as you practice it.



cemab4y said:


> --What are the "right" reasons? I should think that bringing inactive masons, back into more participation should be a laudable reason in itself.



There are many, but the goal should never be to bring inactive members back into activities that will not nurture them and, _by participation,_ deplete them.  Mere participation is not a laudable reason in itself AND inactive members not only know this, they vote with their feet accordingly.



cemab4y said:


> COACH: Yes, but will the returning members benefit as they want to?
> 
> --This is going to vary with the individual.


This is an obviously dismissive response to the question.  A better response is: What did the inactive members expect and what did they get? Will returning provide more of the same?  If what "is" doesn't need to change, then the response to the unchanging system SHOULD remain the same for it depletes and doesn't benefit.



cemab4y said:


> COACH: You can't expect them to return to activity just because they went through another degree.
> 
> --The "rusty nail" is a FUN degree, not a real operative degree of Freemasonry.



As are all the other degrees, as in, fun and not real operative degrees. This should be obvious to anyone who has been a mason for even a short time.



cemab4y said:


> Will an inactive Mason return to more participation due to one humorous experience in lodge? NO.



Good.  I am glad that you do not see this as THE solution.



cemab4y said:


> I see it as part of a "holistic" approach, if a man is presented with reasons, and programs, and enjoyment and value, he will be more likely to wish to participate in his lodge. VALUE is what it is all about.



But I thought you said:


cemab4y said:


> That is why I am NOT interested in changing Masonry.






cemab4y said:


> Coach: Perhaps your pursuit is the wrong one. Perhaps the goal is to raise men and then send them out into the world, never to return.
> 
> --I do not see it that way. Sadly, this is what is happening! Masonry is losing more membership to demits, and resignations, than to deaths! Men join up and then are "cast adrift". They lose interest, and leave.



That's because the system, that you claim doesn't need changing, provokes these responses.



cemab4y said:


> COACH: I can easily say that when someone thinks that Freemasonry is NOT a theatrical society, they are deluded. ;-)
> 
> --After 33 years in the Craft, I do not think that our Craft is a theatrical society.


Your view would change should you earnestly examined what is clearly hidden in plain sight before you. Well, that and being open to seeing things differently than you currently do.  This would be necessary for something to change in your masonic experience.  Have you considered the possibility that not seeing the society for what it is could be a problem in trying to make it better, even without changing it?


----------



## LAMason

Others have mentioned that Freemasonry should stop trying to be something that it isn't, along those same lines:

“Within Freemasonry there is a tendency to embellish and add to the simplicity of masonic teachings, ascribing significance where none was intended; mistaking visual mnemonics or artistic licence for symbolic depth.”

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/symbolism/compasses/index.html


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Yet, you post a thread  entitled "what would you like to see changed in the masonic experience"?  You must change what occurs in meetings if you're to keep the interest of those returning members.  You yourself said this in this thread.  Your words are conflicting.
> 
> 
> ==*Title of the thread:  "what would you like to see changed in the masonic experience"?
> 
> My repeated statement :  That is why I am NOT interested in changing Masonry.*
> 
> *There is one word in the thread title, that is very important. This word is obvious. I cherish the ancient landmarks and the rituals and traditions of the Craft. I have no wish at all to alter the basic foundations of Freemasonry. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet, you wish to drag members, very satisfied with being dues payers only, back into meetings without first changing the very thing that caused them to stay away?
> 
> ==*Not at all. I have no wish at all to "drag" anyone anywhere. There are some people who choose to be "dues payers". Retired Masons who live in Florida, but belong to a New Jersey lodge, for example. Masons like myself, who belong to a lodge in one state, but reside out of state.
> 
> And you are putting proverbial cart before the horse. As I stated previously, inactive Masons need to be "interviewed" , to determine WHY they are inactive. Then it can be determined, HOW to encourage them to be active again.
> 
> Inactive Masons can be invited to a "rusty nail night". The fun degree can be performed. AND, the inactives can be interviewed and/or be given an anonymous survey. The information can be used to possibly modify the Masonic experience, and then these men could possibly become active again. The rusty nail night, is a "two-way street". Maybe the inactive man is just unaware of what the lodge is up to. Since print newsletters are obsolete (my lodge has not had one for many years), and not all lodges have an on-line newsletter, the inactive man may not know what sort of programs the lodge is conducting, and he may just be unaware.*
> 
> 
> 
> Case in point: These are changes, that you are recommending to Masonry, as you practice it.
> 
> ==*Not at all. See the title of this thread. I am not interested at all in changing MASONRY. *
> 
> 
> 
> There are many, but the goal should never be to bring inactive members back into activities that will not nurture them and, _by participation,_ deplete them.  Mere participation is not a laudable reason in itself AND inactive members not only know this, they vote with their feet accordingly.
> 
> *==There is no reason to bring an inactive Mason back into your lodge meetings, if all he is going to do, is become inactive again. The Masonic experience, must provide value to the man, or he will spend lodge nights at home watching cable TV. *
> 
> 
> This is an obviously dismissive response to the question.  A better response is: What did the inactive members expect and what did they get? Will returning provide more of the same?  If what "is" doesn't need to change, then the response to the unchanging system SHOULD remain the same for it depletes and doesn't benefit.
> 
> *==I find myself in agreement, somewhat. If you invite an inactive man back to your lodge, and you do not LISTEN to why he is inactive, make the appropriate adjustments (if they are feasible, and do not go against your constitution and by-laws, and do not alter the landmarks), then you are wasting everyone's time.*
> 
> 
> 
> As are all the other degrees, as in, fun and not real operative degrees. This should be obvious to anyone who has been a mason for even a short time.
> 
> 
> 
> Good.  I am glad that you do not see this as THE solution.
> 
> 
> 
> But I thought you said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's because the system, that you claim doesn't need changing, provokes these responses.
> 
> 
> Your view would change should you earnestly examined what is clearly hidden in plain sight before you. Well, that and being open to seeing things differently than you currently do.  This would be necessary for something to change in your masonic experience.  Have you considered the possibility that not seeing the society for what it is could be a problem in trying to make it better, even without changing it?


----------



## cemab4y

I see it as part of a "holistic" approach, if a man is presented with reasons, and programs, and enjoyment and value, he will be more likely to wish to participate in his lodge. VALUE is what it is all about.
Click to expand...
But I thought you said:
↑
That is why I am NOT interested in changing Masonry.

*==You are correct. I have said many times "I am not interested in changing Masonry". I am not interested in changing the ritual, landmarks, traditions, etc. not at all. I am not interested in changing the Grand Lodge structures, and other such bedrocks of the Craft. I am interested in changing the EXPERIENCE. Many people overlook the fact, that we can have more interesting meetings, and still keep the rituals and landmarks. We can have degree work on Saturday mornings, to accommodate men who cannot attend in the evenings. We can organize more daylight lodges.*

--I do not see it that way. Sadly, this is what is happening! Masonry is losing more membership to demits, and resignations, than to deaths! Men join up and then are "cast adrift". They lose interest, and leave.
Click to expand...
That's because the system, that you claim doesn't need changing, provokes these responses.

*--You are not correct here, and you are missing the point entirely. I believe sincerely, that the Masonic experience can be changed and modernized, and we can stay true to our traditions and "roots".*

Your view would change should you earnestly examined what is clearly hidden in plain sight before you. Well, that and being open to seeing things differently than you currently do. This would be necessary for something to change in your masonic experience. Have you considered the possibility that not seeing the society for what it is could be a problem in trying to make it better, even without changing it?

*I have been a Mason for 33 years. I have belonged to five(5) lodges. If you believe that Masonry is a "theatrical society", that is your right. I do not see this. 

I am seeing the Craft for exactly what it is (and the appendants). And it seems to that "trying to make it better, even without changing it" is antithetical and contradictory. You cannot improve nor modernize anything, without change.*


----------



## Brother_Steve

more table lodges.

IF I ever make the east I will be doing one out of two meetings a month as a table lodge. I'm going to also suggest the incoming master do same.


----------



## cemab4y

Brother_Steve said:


> more table lodges.
> 
> IF I ever make the east I will be doing one out of two meetings a month as a table lodge. I'm going to also suggest the incoming master do same.



*-Great Idea! I never even heard of a "table lodge", until I went to Saudi Arabia in 1991. I was informed that these are very popular in England. This is a custom, which USA lodges can emulate. Keep it up!*


----------



## JJones

Brother_Steve said:


> more table lodges.
> 
> IF I ever make the east I will be doing one out of two meetings a month as a table lodge. I'm going to also suggest the incoming master do same.



Unfortunately our GL doesn't seem to know how they feel about table lodges.  They haven't flat out told us that we couldn't use them, however we don't really have an 'accepted' ritual for it either.


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> I see it as part of a "holistic" approach, if a man is presented with reasons, and programs, and enjoyment and value, he will be more likely to wish to participate in his lodge. VALUE is what it is all about.
> Click to expand...
> But I thought you said:
> ↑
> That is why I am NOT interested in changing Masonry.
> 
> ==You are correct. I have said many times "I am not interested in changing Masonry". I am not interested in changing the ritual, landmarks, traditions, etc. not at all. I am not interested in changing the Grand Lodge structures, and other such bedrocks of the Craft. I am interested in changing the EXPERIENCE. Many people overlook the fact, that we can have more interesting meetings, and still keep the rituals and landmarks. We can have degree work on Saturday mornings, to accommodate men who cannot attend in the evenings. We can organize more daylight lodges.



Perhaps you do not want to acknowledge it as a change to masonry, BUT to change the experience, you must change what is offered or at least HOW it is offered.  Either in itself is a change.



cemab4y said:


> --I do not see it that way. Sadly, this is what is happening! Masonry is losing more membership to demits, and resignations, than to deaths! Men join up and then are "cast adrift". They lose interest, and leave.
> Click to expand...
> That's because the system, that you claim doesn't need changing, provokes these responses.
> 
> --You are not correct here, and you are missing the point entirely. I believe sincerely, that the Masonic experience can be changed and modernized, and we can stay true to our traditions and "roots".



I might not be correct by your way of thinking, but it is not by your way of thinking that I am understanding the situation and hence, you are missing the point that I have gotten entirely, which appears to have escaped you. ;-)

To change the Masonic Experience, something must change in the Masonry that is practiced for if it keeps doing what it is doing, it shall continue to get the results it is getting.



cemab4y said:


> Your view would change should you earnestly examined what is clearly hidden in plain sight before you. Well, that and being open to seeing things differently than you currently do. This would be necessary for something to change in your masonic experience. Have you considered the possibility that not seeing the society for what it is could be a problem in trying to make it better, even without changing it?
> 
> I have been a Mason for 33 years. I have belonged to five(5) lodges. If you believe that Masonry is a "theatrical society", that is your right. I do not see this.


Yes, that is clear.



cemab4y said:


> I am seeing the Craft for exactly what it is (and the appendants). And it seems to that "trying to make it better, even without changing it" is antithetical and contradictory. You cannot improve nor modernize anything, without change.


...but you are against change anything?  Very confusing you are.


----------



## crono782

JJones said:


> Unfortunately our GL doesn't seem to know how they feel about table lodges.  They haven't flat out told us that we couldn't use them, however we don't really have an 'accepted' ritual for it either.


I was actually not in favor of the proposed table lodge legislation. I felt that it would have muddied the distinction between table lodge and festive board thereby making festive boards more difficult to have.


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Perhaps you do not want to acknowledge it as a change to masonry, BUT to change the experience, you must change what is offered or at least HOW it is offered. Either in itself is a change.



--*My definition of change, and yours differ somewhat. I cannot stress too strongly, that I am NOT interested in changing the traditions, ritual, constitutions, landmarks,etc. BUT I am very interested in changing and modernizing the administrative methods, and some of the methodologies of doing things. I am also keen on reviving some of our cherished traditions, like more services to our widows. and our Masonic employment bureaus.  My definition of "change" is somewhat elastic. 

*


coachn said:


> I might not be correct by your way of thinking, but it is not by your way of thinking that I am understanding the situation and hence, you are missing the point that I have gotten entirely, which appears to have escaped you. ;-)
> 
> To change the Masonic Experience, something must change in the Masonry that is practiced for if it keeps doing what it is doing, it shall continue to get the results it is getting.




--*If there is some point I am missing, maybe you can identify it. As to changing the experience: Phasing out print newsletters and replacing them with on-line, will not change Masonry. Bringing in more daylight lodges, is not going to alter the landmarks.
*


coachn said:


> but you are against change anything? Very confusing you are.



*If you are confused, here it is again:

We can update and modernize our administrative procedures, and still keep true to our roots.

We can have degree work on Saturday mornings, to accommodate men who cannot attend at night. AND not alter the ritual.

We can have more family-oriented activities, and NOT change the landmarks.

We can pay dues on line, and NOT alter the Grand Lodge structure.

We can have more daylight lodges to accommodate older brothers, and shift workers.

We can have more "open houses", and still keep true to our traditions.

Adapting to new technologies, and adjusting the meetings schedule, is more of an "Adaptation" than a "change"*

[


----------



## LAMason




----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> --*My definition of change, and yours differ somewhat. I cannot stress too strongly, that I am NOT interested in changing the traditions, ritual, constitutions, landmarks,etc. BUT I am very interested in changing and modernizing the administrative methods, and some of the methodologies of doing things. I am also keen on reviving some of our cherished traditions, like more services to our widows. and our Masonic employment bureaus.  My definition of "change" is somewhat elastic. *



Then you ARE interested in changing things about Masonry.  Thanks for the clarification.



cemab4y said:


> ----*If there is some point I am missing, maybe you can identify it. As to changing the experience: Phasing out print newsletters and replacing them with on-line, will not change Masonry. Bringing in more daylight lodges, is not going to alter the landmarks.*



I can't see how this will bring back enough interest from those who do not attend to have them banging on the lodge doors to come back and attend.

*


cemab4y said:



			--If you are confused, here it is again:
		
Click to expand...

*
I am not confused nor do I have confusion.  I said that you are confusing.  There is a difference.


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Then you ARE interested in changing things about Masonry. Thanks for the clarification



You should have noticed this already. There are some things that need to be changed, in order to cope with technology, an aging membership base, fewer lodges, etc. And I believe that we should seriously examine reviving some of our traditional practices, which have been abandoned. Two of the most important are the Masonic employment bureaus, and service to our Masonic widows. Sometimes you can go forward, by reaching backward!


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> I can't see how this will bring back enough interest from those who do not attend to have them banging on the lodge doors to come back and attend.



Consider this. If a lodge does not have a print newsletter, and does not have an on-line newsletter, then the membership is not getting promptly informed of lodge activities. Members who attend frequently can keep up on the happenings, but inactives, do not have a clue. If a lodge is informing ALL members regularly, more members will be aware of the activities, and participation will increase. Members who cannot get out at night, would be able to participate, if there were a daylight lodge in their area, and/or their lodge would have meetings and degree work on the weekend, during daylight.

IF administrative procedures can be altered/modified, to accommodate the membership, it follows that participation will increase.


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> I am not confused nor do I have confusion. I said that you are confusing. There is a difference.



If you are confused about anything I post, please let me know, and I will make every effort to clarify.


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> You should have noticed this already.



Oh, I have for some time.  It was nice to see you admit it though.



cemab4y said:


> If you are confused about anything I post, please let me know, and I will make every effort to clarify.



Will do, thanks.



cemab4y said:


> Consider this. If a lodge does not have a print newsletter, and does not have an on-line newsletter, then the membership is not getting promptly informed of lodge activities.



Yes, but if the lodge activities are of no interest to the inactive member, what difference does the form make?



cemab4y said:


> Members who attend frequently can keep up on the happenings, but inactives, do not have a clue.



OR they don't require any clues in that they are simply disinterested.



cemab4y said:


> If a lodge is informing ALL members regularly, more members will be aware of the activities, and participation will increase.



Citation Please!



cemab4y said:


> Members who cannot get out at night, would be able to participate, if there were a daylight lodge in their area, and/or their lodge would have meetings and degree work on the weekend, during daylight.
> 
> IF administrative procedures can be altered/modified, to accommodate the membership, it follows that participation will increase.



Citation Please!


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...Masonic employment bureaus...


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Yes, but if the lodge activities are of no interest to the inactive member, what difference does the form make?



*This is a "chicken or egg" conundrum. If a lodge has no print nor on-line newsletter, then lodge activities will only be known, by those who are active. When active members attend, they are able to get the schedule of events. BUT- If a man is inactive, he has no way of knowing when the lodge meets, when degrees are scheduled , etc. 

This is why the lodge should reach out to inactives, with an on-line newsletter, or at a minimum a mailing list, with a schedule of events. AND, reach out to inactives, with a phone call or personal visit, at least twice a year.*

*If an inactive member is aware of events, he is much more likely to attend, than someone who is completely in the dark! The analogy is inexact, but Masonry must continually "sell" itself to inactive members, with rusty nail nights, and personal invitations.*





coachn said:


> OR they don't require any clues in that they are simply disinterested.



*Of course, if a man is TOTALLY disinterested, and his only interest is to send his dues payment in regularly, then no invitations or personal contact will entice him to return to lodge and lodge activities. 

BUT- If the lodge can reach out to inactives,and show them the value of participation, there is a good chance, that at least some inactives, will wish to return to lodge. You don't know unless you try. 

And when you are in private conversation with inactives, you can "glean" from them, the WHY of their reasons for inactivity. You might even wish to make some modifications in your lodge programs, based on their suggestions. *




coachn said:


> Citation Please!



*If a lodge is informing ALL members regularly, more members will be aware of the activities, and participation will increase. I have no "hard data" to support this thesis. It is a logical deduction. If a lodge has a print newsletter, and/or an online newsletter, the members will be better informed of activities and schedules, and then much more likely to attend. If a lodge has events, and no one in the lodge knows about them, attendance will be less.*

===
Members who cannot get out at night, would be able to participate, if there were a daylight lodge in their area, and/or their lodge would have meetings and degree work on the weekend, during daylight.

IF administrative procedures can be altered/modified, to accommodate the membership, it follows that participation will increase.

Citation Please!

==*Here again, I have no "hard data". and again, it is a logical deduction.  Here is  how it works: If a lodge has members who work evenings and/or members who cannot get out at night, due to inability to drive, these men will not be attending lodge in the evenings. BUT- If the lodge has activities in the  daylight, on weekends, these men can attend*


.


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> This is a "chicken or egg" conundrum.



I disagree.



cemab4y said:


> If a lodge has no print nor on-line newsletter, then lodge activities will only be known, by those who are active.


Assumption


cemab4y said:


> When active members attend, they are able to get the schedule of events. BUT- If a man is inactive, he has no way of knowing when the lodge meets, when degrees are scheduled , etc.


Assumption



cemab4y said:


> This is why the lodge should reach out to inactives, with an on-line newsletter, or at a minimum a mailing list, with a schedule of events.


Your reasoning is unsupported.


cemab4y said:


> AND, reach out to inactives, with a phone call or personal visit, at least twice a year.


Why at least twice a year?  Data please.
.





cemab4y said:


> If an inactive member is aware of events, he is much more likely to attend,



Assumptive once again


cemab4y said:


> ...than someone who is completely in the dark! The analogy is inexact, but Masonry must continually "sell" itself to inactive members, with rusty nail nights, and personal invitations.



Assumptive once again





cemab4y said:


> Of course, if a man is TOTALLY disinterested, and his only interest is to send his dues payment in regularly, then no invitations or personal contact will entice him to return to lodge and lodge activities.


Agreed



cemab4y said:


> BUT- If the lodge can reach out to inactives,and show them the value of participation,



The value must be there to begin with.  That's the challenge that has yet to be met.


cemab4y said:


> there is a good chance, that at least some inactives, will wish to return to lodge. You don't know unless you try.


You might want to harp on building the value first. 


cemab4y said:


> And when you are in private conversation with inactives, you can "glean" from them, the WHY of their reasons for inactivity. You might even wish to make some modifications in your lodge programs, based on their suggestions.


You mean, take their feedback and make changes to the masonry that is practiced in your lodge!?



cemab4y said:


> If a lodge is informing ALL members regularly, more members will be aware of the activities, and participation will increase.


Assumptive


cemab4y said:


> I have no "hard data" to support this thesis.


agreed


cemab4y said:


> It is a logical deduction.


based on unsupported data


cemab4y said:


> If a lodge has a print newsletter, and/or an online newsletter, the members will be better informed of activities and schedules, and then much more likely to attend.


assumptive


cemab4y said:


> If a lodge has events, and no one in the lodge knows about them, attendance will be less.


assumptive



cemab4y said:


> ==Here again, I have no "hard data". and again, it is a logical deduction.


Using unsupported data


cemab4y said:


> Here is  how it works: If a lodge has members who work evenings and/or members who cannot get out at night, due to inability to drive, these men will not be attending lodge in the evenings. BUT- If the lodge has activities in the  daylight, on weekends, these men can attend.


Assumptive


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> You mean, take their feedback and make changes to the masonry that is practiced in your lodge!?



--If you think I mean this, then you are wrong. I look on inactive members, as a resource. This may sound odd, but it really is not. I believe that every Mason who sends in his dues, but chooses not to attend, is doing so, for a reason (or reasons).

Inactives can provide "intelligence", as to why they were initially attracted to Masonry, and then why they choose to be inactive. It may be due to a medical reason, the man may not be able to drive. In this case, arrange for a carpool.

The man may feel that the lodge meetings he attended in the  past were boring or uninteresting. Find out why. Your lodge meetings, may be quite different than the last one the inactive man attended.

The man may feel that he forgot the modes of recognition and he is embarrassed. You can either arrange for private instruction, or invite him to the next Rusty Nail.

If the reasons for the various inactives seem to point in a similar direction, the problem may be more widespread.

Your lodge may wish to make some modifications or try some new idea. NO ONE IS SUGGESTING CHANGING MASONRY. I cannot stress that enough.

"People like to be asked" - Thomas P. (Tip) O'Neill, former speaker of the House. 1977-1987


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Why at least twice a year? Data please.



I have no data, and you know it. I have some background in sales. My church has an outreach program to inactive members. There is a fine line, between showing concern, and nagging. No one knows how frequently that you should contact an inactive Mason. Sadly, most lodges are content to have the dues coming in, and let it go at that.

Twice a year, is an arbitrary number, of course. Maybe four times a year, would be more appropriate, I honestly don't know. The important thing , is to reach out to your inactives, in some manner.


----------



## Glen Cook

Brother_Steve said:


> more table lodges.
> 
> IF I ever make the east I will be doing one out of two meetings a month as a table lodge. I'm going to also suggest the incoming master do same.



St Andrew's Lodge did one just Saturday at the Alta Club in Salt Lake City.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

Personally, I wish my Lodge had more inactives.  If we could raise 25 more members who paid their dues but never came to Lodge we wouldn't have to fund raise to pay the utilities.    <-- (Okay, that was a joke, sorta)

But seriously. I think I get where Charles is coming from.  I remember when I was saying all the things that he is saying.  As I recall, back then I had a real feeling of discomfort and frustration.  (Not saying that you feel that way Charles, just recalling what it was like for me)  It seemed to me that the answers were right in front of our faces and no one would do anything about it.  Fortunately, just when I thought I was about to lose it, I ran across a rather interesting oxymoron that saved my sanity; Disinterested Compassion.  Disinterested Compassion is the art of dealing with others while keeping the proper emotional distance.  It is feeling compassion toward others without allowing yourself to be disturbed by their behavior.  It is scribing a circle and realizing that while you can love those outside your circle they are beyond your cable tow.  It is accepting that while you can love everyone, you can't save everyone.

In the common parlance of today it goes by the name Tough Love.  Every inactive Mason knows how to come back to Lodge.  It is not my job to coax him back, it is his job to overcome whatever demon is inside of him that prevents him from coming back.  And if I make it so easy for him to come back that he does not have to deal with the demon that kept him away have I really helped him?


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> --If you think I mean this, then you are wrong.



I encourage you to reassess the parameters to which you put forth your wholly inaccurate judgment.  The wholesale statement of the wrongness of me as a human being has absolutely nothing to do with the statement I put forth.  Furthermore, it is IMPOSSIBLE to change the operations of the Lodge without changing the way that Masonry is PRACTICED.  I think that with even a little effort that you can see this to be a true statement.  SO, no matter how much you espouse how you do not want to CHANGE Masonry, the instant you CHANGE anything that you are doing in its ADMINISTRATION is the instant that you change its PRACTICE.

You truly cannot have your cake and claim that you have not eaten it too. 

But, you are free to believe it, should you wish to keep your claim as a curtain on your stage.  The act is still not convincing.

Case in point:


cemab4y said:


> ...*Your lodge may wish to make some modifications or try some new idea.* NO ONE IS SUGGESTING _*CHANGING MASONRY*_. I cannot stress that enough.


You cannot make a change such as what you suggest without changing HOW Masonry is PRATICED. Impossible!


cemab4y said:


> I have no data, and you know it.



Just trying to continually confirm this fact, that is all.  Things do change.



cemab4y said:


> --I have some background in sales. My church has an outreach program to inactive members. There is a fine line, between showing concern, and nagging.



You mean, like, when some visiting dignitary stands up in the East and insults the attending members by lecturing them on how important it is to get out there to invite the inactives to come back?  I agree!


cemab4y said:


> --No one knows how frequently that you should contact an inactive Mason.


Or, if it is even a worthwhile action....


cemab4y said:


> --Sadly, most lodges are content to have the dues coming in, and let it go at that.


As they should since it does keep the doors open in USA lodges, based upon how Masonry is practiced here.


cemab4y said:


> --Twice a year, is an arbitrary number, of course. Maybe four times a year, would be more appropriate, I honestly don't know. The important thing , is to reach out to your inactives, in some manner.


Yes, but the intention behind that reaching out is all important.  To inform and keep connected is important.  To nag is detrimental and only serves to drive already inactive members further away.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> … If a lodge is informing ALL members regularly, more members will be aware of the activities, and participation will increase…



Have you ever sent out newsletters to the members of your Lodge or been involved in an effort to get inactive members to attend?  I have, I was first elected Secretary of my Lodge in 1977 immediately after serving as WM in 1976 and served as Secretary for many years.  Several times over the course of my tenure as Secretary I personally prepared and sent quarterly newsletters to every member of my Lodge.  Each effort lasted about a year and I always had the same result.  It did not influence inactive members to attend.  As far as online newsletters, I do not see how they would be any more effective.  While a print newsletter is sent to every member, online newsletters would only reach members who actually visit the website.  Have you collected any Lodge website analytics that would indicate the percent of Lodge members that actually visit their Lodge websites or collected data from Lodges that have online newsletters or print newsletters that show participation increased as a result of having the newsletters?

In addition to this I also have been personally involved in efforts in my Lodge, Chapter, and Council to get inactive members to attend by calling and visiting them.   We would divide up the inactive members who lived locally based on who was best acquainted with them and then call or visit them to invite them and let them know what was going on in the Lodge, also if they needed transportation to meeting that would also be arranged.  Again, very little response.  Sometimes one or two inactive members would attend but quickly drop out again.

I will not be so bold as you and make the generalization that these things will not work in every Lodge and there certainly may be others that have had different results from similar efforts.



cemab4y said:


> IF administrative procedures can be altered/modified, to accommodate the membership, it follows that participation will increase.



I really do not see how you can draw such a conclusion.  What administrative procedures other than online dues payments are you referring to?  And again, have you collected any data from Lodges that have instituted online dues payments or altered/modified other administrative procedures that show that participation increased?

Drawing a conclusion without evidence to support it is not reasoning, it is conjecture.

EDIT:  I am not saying that Lodges should not have newsletters, websites, or use social media if they want to, but I have not seen any evidence that they are effective in increasing attendance/participation.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...*Masonry must continually "sell" itself to inactive members...*.



Why?


----------



## LAMason

My 2 cents:

"...Intrinsic motivators drive people to do things because they like to do a particular task; no external incentive is necessary. For example, someone who is intrinsically motivated to meet challenging objectives would likely do well in a sales position with challenging sales goals. Extrinsic motivation on the other hand drives people to do things to get an external reward. For example, someone does a job, even though they do not like it, so that they can earn money...."

http://competeoutsidethebox.com/wp-content/uploads/articles/The Motivated Employee.pdf

Members who attend Lodge regularly do so because they are intrinsically motivated.  On the other hand members that do not attend are not intrinsically motivated and it is unlikely that they can be extrinsically motivated because they do not see an external reward, because in my opinion Freemasonry's rewards are internal.


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> I encourage you to reassess the parameters to which you put forth your wholly inaccurate judgment. The wholesale statement of the wrongness of me as a human being has absolutely nothing to do with the statement I put forth. Furthermore, it is IMPOSSIBLE to change the operations of the Lodge without changing the way that Masonry is PRACTICED. I think that with even a little effort that you can see this to be a true statement. SO, no matter how much you espouse how you do not want to CHANGE Masonry, the instant you CHANGE anything that you are doing in its ADMINISTRATION is the instant that you change its PRACTICE.



*I must disagree. If you think that by giving members the option of paying dues on-line, is a change in how "Masonry is practiced", then you are wrong. If you think that underwriting a public television program is a change in how "Masonry is practiced" you are wrong here as well. If you think that replacing a print newsletter with an electronic newsletter is a change in how "Masonry is practiced", then you are wrong a third time. *



coachn said:


> You mean, like, when some visiting dignitary stands up in the East and insults the attending members by lecturing them on how important it is to get out there to invite the inactives to come back? I agree!



*This is nonsense on steroids. *


----------



## Glen Cook

LAMason said:


> My 2 cents:
> 
> "...Intrinsic motivators drive people to do things because they like to do a particular task; no external incentive is necessary. For example, someone who is intrinsically motivated to meet challenging objectives would likely do well in a sales position with challenging sales goals. Extrinsic motivation on the other hand drives people to do things to get an external reward. For example, someone does a job, even though they do not like it, so that they can earn money...."
> 
> http://competeoutsidethebox.com/wp-content/uploads/articles/The Motivated Employee.pdf
> 
> Members who attend Lodge regularly do so because they are intrinsically motivated.  On the other hand members that do not attend are not intrinsically motivated and it is unlikely that they can be extrinsically motivated because they do not see an external reward, because in my opinion Freemasonry's rewards are internal.



Hmm. Right with you till last clause: Freemason's rewards being internal.  It is to your credit you should think so.   Many do perceive an external reward of title, gold and jewel.


----------



## cemab4y

I cherish my masonic experiences. I have received "master's wages", symbolic wages, of course. I have never had the honor of serving the Craft as an officer. Different men receive different rewards, of course. I have donated many hours to the Craft (and the appendants that I choose to join). I honestly have no interest in titles, jewels, commemorative aprons, or getting my photo on the wall of my lodge.

It is amazing what can be accomplished, when you do not care who gets the credit.


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Or, if it is even a worthwhile action....




I believe that keeping in contact with your inactives is a worthwhile action. If only to ensure that you have the correct address to send their dues notice to.



coachn said:


> As they should since it does keep the doors open in USA lodges, based upon how Masonry is practiced here.



Has Masonry sunk to such a low level, that we must rely on the financial support of inactive members, just to keep the doors open? If you believe that lodges should completely ignore the men who are "keeping the doors open", then the Masonry that I have cherished for 33 years, is GONE.



coachn said:


> Yes, but the intention behind that reaching out is all important. To inform and keep connected is important. To nag is detrimental and only serves to drive already inactive members further away.



This comment seems to contradictory to your previous comment. First you say "let it go at that", and then you say "To inform and keep connected is important". What are you saying? Should we let it go at that, and just continue to let the money roll in, or should we  inform and keep connected?


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> I really do not see how you can draw such a conclusion. What administrative procedures other than online dues payments are you referring to? And again, have you collected any data from Lodges that have instituted online dues payments or altered/modified other administrative procedures that show that participation increased?
> 
> Drawing a conclusion without evidence to support it is not reasoning, it is conjecture.
> 
> EDIT: I am not saying that Lodges should not have newsletters, websites, or use social media if they want to, but I have not seen any evidence that they are effective in increasing attendance/participation.



--*I am referring to the possibility that modernizing and improving some procedures, may lead to more participation by the membership. Having a print and/or online newsletter, with schedules of lodge activities will make the membership aware of these activities, and for those who are INTERESTED, attendance will increase. This is a reasonable deduction.

I have no hard data. When the GL of Penn. made the option of on-line dues payment available, the membership supported the choice. 

If routine matters could be handled in executive session, and the minutes of previous meetings were published on-line, the business portion of stated meetings would conclude more quickly. The "show" part of the meetings would be able to start more quickly, and the meetings would be more interesting. Will this increase participation? I do not know, and I have no data. It is a reasonable deduction though. Many masons have told me that most stated meetings are BORING, and I must agree. *


----------



## Glen Cook

We weren't discussing particular individuals' contributions to Freemasonry.   Please stay on topic.


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> I must disagree. If you think that by giving members the option of paying dues on-line, is a change in how "Masonry is practiced", *then you are wrong.* If you think that underwriting a public television program is a change in how "Masonry is practiced" *you are wrong here as well*. If you think that replacing a print newsletter with an electronic newsletter is a change in how "Masonry is practiced", then *you are wrong a third time.*  If you think that underwriting a public television program is a change in how "Masonry is practiced" *you are wrong here as well.*


*EDUCATIONAL MOMENT:* When you say the words "*you are wrong*" to another Brother, you let the Brother and the world know that you have yet to comprehend that you are *attacking the Brother* rather than *what he is saying*.  You decrease the possibility of agreeing upon anything with that Brother when you fail to see that the very words you use are an affront to the person you address and not the subject being discussed.  It might be a cultural thing on your part so I am letting you know how you come across.  Your words are off topic.  You fail to realize how far they are off topic and how abusive they come across.  You might want to reconsider your word use strategy here and ask yourself if it is producing the results you desire.

*BACK TO OUR REGULAR PROGRAM:* Regardless, you have shown here that you truly 1) *can't stay on topic*, 2) *can't see how changing a system's processes changes the system itself *or 3) *can't keep yourself from passing and stating judgments upon another rather than the topic being discussed*.

Additionally, you are attempting to reduce the argument to the ridiculous.  You have failed here in your efforts.  Until you change your methods and your views, I can see that any rational discussion with you shall not occur.  When you deliberately change what or how you provide something, you change both the system and ultimately the experience of that system.  This applies to what you call "Masonry" (I call it "Freemasonry", but that's a whole different thread).  Masonry is a whole.  Change any part of that whole, no matter how small you make effort to do so, and you change it. I can tell from your reactions though that you can't see this or have chosen not to.  I accept either of these facts about you and do so without any reservation.

I recommend though that when you disagree with someone that you simply disagree with him rather than passing judgment upon someone who obviously holds a different view than that which you hold.


cemab4y said:


> This is nonsense on steroids.


I could not agree more with you...  that is, what you have put forth is just that.


cemab4y said:


> Has Masonry sunk to such a low level, that we must rely on the financial support of inactive members, just to keep the doors open?


Brother, it was designed this way in the USA... the (extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations are what keeps the doors open.  So, your assessment of it *sinking* is incorrect since it has been this way in the USA on purpose and it has done things this way for a very long time. 

Please notice that I did not say that *you were wrong* here.  My thoughts as to *what you are* should have nothing to do with the discussion.



cemab4y said:


> If you believe that lodges should completely ignore the men who are "keeping the doors open", then the Masonry that I have cherished for 33 years, is GONE.


You appear to once again present bizarre imaginings of my view.  Arguing absurdities is superfluous.

BTW - The Masonry that you have cherished for 33 years might well exist in your head only.  Something to consider.



cemab4y said:


> This comment seems to contradictory to your previous comment. First you say "let it go at that", and then you say "To inform and keep connected is important". What are you saying? Should we let it go at that, and just continue to let the money roll in, or should we  inform and keep connected?


Only through your biased eyes.  Regardless, based upon all that you have already put forth, you have convinced me that nothing that I try to explain to you along these lines will be understood by you.  I shall leave you to your imaginings.


----------



## LAMason

Glen Cook said:


> Hmm. Right with you till last clause: Freemason's rewards being internal.  It is to your credit you should think so.   Many do perceive an external reward of title, gold and jewel.



I understand what you are saying and considered that.  For instance, 2 men serving through the Grand Lodge line and becoming Grand Master, one doing so out of an altruistic desire to serve and another out of a vain desire for title, gold, and, jewel.  Two very different motivations, one worthy and the other perhaps not so worthy, but in my opinion they are still both internal, but I can see where some would perceive the second as external.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...*I have no data. It is a reasonable deduction though.... *



More likely a fallacy of wishful thinking.


----------



## cemab4y

I am on your frequency. I admire any man who will serve our Craft in the Grand Line. It is hard work, for which you receive no financial reward, and everyone heaps criticism on you. I especially admire any man who will serve the Shrine as potentate of his Shrine center. (I have an uncle was pote of Mt.Sinai Shrine in Vermont). It cost him about $25,000 to serve for one year. I know a man here in North VA who served as pote of Kena Shrine. It cost him a similar amount.


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> More likely a fallacy of wishful thinking.



Why do you think this? I have spoken with Masons all over the USA. Many (not all) tell me that stated meetings are boring! Open the lodge, pay the bills, read the sick list, close the lodge , go home. We should not be surprised, that attendance and participation at stated meetings is low.

It follows that if meetings were exciting, and interesting programs were presented, and the mundane business portion was minimized, that meetings just might be less boring. It also follows that members who stay away from stated meetings, because they are boring, just might consider attending again.

Here is how I see it, and I may be totally wrong:

-Most (not all) stated meetings are boring, and members do not get much "value" in attending them.

-IF meetings were more interesting, and members would find value in attendance, the ones who are staying away because meetings are boring, would possibly attend.

I see this, as a reasonable conclusion.


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> can't see how changing a system's processes changes the system itself



On this point, you are absolutely correct. I cannot see how giving members the option of paying their dues online, will change the "system" as you call it. I do not see how having an electronic newsletter, will change the ancient landmarks. I do not see how using videos to learn Masonic history, will change the constitution and by-laws of the lodge.

I do not see how holding  "rusty nail night", is going to alter the system.

I have examined these ideas thoroughly, and I do not see how making some minor administrative changes will fundamentally alter the basic tenets and traditions and practices of this Craft.

Maybe you can explain it to me, like I am a four year-old. I just cant see it.


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Brother, it was designed this way in the USA... the (extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations are what keeps the doors open. So, your assessment of it *sinking* is incorrect since it has been this way in the USA on purpose and it has done things this way for a very long time.
> 
> Please notice that I did not say that *you were wrong* here. My thoughts as to *what you are* should have nothing to do with the discussion.



*How sad! In my home lodge (KY), the membership is (generally) loath to raise dues. Dues at my lodge ($83 per year) have definitely not kept up with inflation.

If my lodge needs a new carpet or waterheater , they will hold a fund raiser.*


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> On this point, you are absolutely correct.


Yes.  I am compelled by your argument to agree with your assessment.



cemab4y said:


> I cannot see how giving members the option of paying their dues online, will change the "system" as you call it.


I could facetiously tell you what I was told ad nausea  by Brothers who have been in the society for decades, "just memorize it and it will all become clear to you with time", but that tired line never worked for me and I suspect you would have the same reaction to it that I did.  OR, that tired line, "it's not how we did it in my year".

You are continuously reducing the argument to the point of nonsense.  Look at the bigger picture, change has to occur if the society is to maintain, sustain or regain.  Anything you do to change what the society currently does changes what it currently does and hence changes its system.  If you cannot see this, I am not the one to make this any clearer to you.  Please simply accept that we do not see eye to eye and move on.



cemab4y said:


> I do not see how having an electronic newsletter, will change the ancient landmarks.


Argument reduction to the ridiculous is poor discourse.  Your statement is nonsense and has nothing to do with the points tendered.  The action and what follows are unconnected.



cemab4y said:


> I do not see how using videos to learn Masonic history, will change the constitution and by-laws of the lodge.


Argument reduction to the ridiculous is poor discourse.  Your statement is nonsense and has nothing to do with the points tendered.  The action and what follows are unconnected.



cemab4y said:


> I do not see how holding  "rusty nail night", is going to alter the system.


I do.  Enough said.



cemab4y said:


> I have examined these ideas thoroughly,


Perhaps not enough...


cemab4y said:


> ...and I do not see how making some minor administrative changes will fundamentally alter the basic tenets and traditions and practices of this Craft.


Perhaps not fundamentally, but it shall never the less alter the Masonic system, even subtlety, and hence the Practice of the Craft.


cemab4y said:


> Maybe you can explain it to me, like I am a four year-old. I just cant see it.


I'd rather simply accept that you cannot see it and move on.


cemab4y said:


> How sad! In my home lodge (KY), the membership is (generally) loath to raise dues. Dues at my lodge ($83 per year) have definitely not kept up with inflation.
> 
> If my lodge needs a new carpet or waterheater , they will hold a fund raiser.


Sad indeed.  Yet, it is the reality of USA Freemasonic Practice since its system is perfectly designed to get these results continuously!  

If you want to change the Freemasonic experience for those who practice it, you have to change what and how things are done.  This changes Freemasonry...

Fundamentally?  Maybe not, but making a series of small changes add up over time, say, about 300 years or so.  Make enough changes over time and you'll eventually be handing out Master's titles to men who have no Mastery whatsoever. 

Wouldn't that be sad.


----------



## LAMason

@cembay4

You are trying to “sell” the idea that:

·  having an online presence,

·  having online dues payments,

·  having newsletters (print or online)

will lead to increased interest and attendance by inactive members.  I don’t “buy” it, there just isn’t a benefit from them that motivates someone to attend a Lodge meeting.  My personal experience which I shared in a prior post concerning newsletters, did not bear out such a conclusion.  Although it is anecdotal and consists of only one account, that is more evidence than you have given to support your claim.  If you want to persuade others to your point of view you should put out a little effort and gather some evidence to support it.


On the other hand having programs at Lodge meetings that provide “good and wholesome instruction” will produce informative, interesting, and enjoyable meetings that will provide benefits that will, if not immediately then overtime, create interest and motivate some to attend.


Also, just because you consider something to be a “reasonable” deduction/conclusion/inference does not mean it is.


----------



## LAMason

coachn said:


> ...you'll eventually be handing out Master's titles to men who have no Mastery whatsoever...



Aren't we already doing that?

EDIT:  My bad, I totally missed your point, maybe you should have used an emoticon to clue some of us that are a little slow on the uptake.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

coachn said:


> Fundamentally?  Maybe not, but making a series of small changes add up over time, say, about 300 years or so.  Make enough changes over time and you'll eventually be handing out Master's titles to men who have no Mastery whatsoever.
> 
> Wouldn't that be sad.


Now your just trying to make me smile.  But to quote Harry Chapin, "It was a sad smile just the same".   Substance - Style, Style - Substance.  Isn't it sad that Mastery has become so hard to find in the Craft?   Sometimes being a Mason is the loneliest thing I do.


----------



## coachn

LAMason said:


> Aren't we already doing that?






That would mean that Masonry has been fundamentally changed!


----------



## coachn

LAMason said:


> EDIT:  My bad, I totally missed your point, maybe you should have used an emoticon to clue some of us that are a little slow on the uptake.


<snicker>


----------



## coachn

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Now your just trying to make me smile.  But to quote Harry Chapin, "It was a sad smile just the same".   Substance - Style, Style - Substance.  Isn't it sad that Mastery has become so hard to find in the Craft?   Sometimes being a Mason is the loneliest thing I do.


<sigh> I can relate...


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> You are trying to “sell” the idea that:
> 
> · having an online presence,
> 
> · having online dues payments,
> 
> · having newsletters (print or online)
> 
> will lead to increased interest and attendance by inactive members.



--I am doing no such thing, Your conclusion is wrong (You yourself are not wrong, just your conclusion). It is natural to deduce that if all lodge members have an awareness of what activities the lodge is pursuing, that members (especially active members), will be more likely to participate.

Having online dues payments, will not increase participation by inactives.


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> On the other hand having programs at Lodge meetings that provide “good and wholesome instruction” will produce informative, interesting, and enjoyable meetings that will provide benefits that will, if not immediately then overtime, create interest and motivate some to attend.
> 
> 
> Also, just because you consider something to be a “reasonable” deduction/conclusion/inference does not mean it is.



--I have felt for many years, that most (not all) stated meetings are boring and dull. My conversations with masons have found a great deal of concurrence with this feeling. I agree 1000% that if interesting and informative meetings were more prevalent, interest/participation would increase. That is more than a reasonable conclusion, it is borne out by facts and experience!!!

Your statements are right, that my considerations and conclusions do not always meet with reality, sometimes they do, sometimes not. You will never know until you try.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> I am doing no such thing…
> 
> Having online dues payments, will not increase participation by inactives.





cemab4y said:


> IF administrative procedures can be altered/modified, to accommodate the membership, it follows that participation will increase.



Your words not mine.



LAMason said:


> … What administrative procedures other than online dues payments are you referring to?...



I asked this question but you did not reply.



cemab4y said:


> …Your statements are right, that my considerations and conclusions do not always meet with reality


----------



## cemab4y

Has Masonry sunk to such a low level, that we must rely on the financial support of inactive members, just to keep the doors open?
Click to expand...
Brother, it was designed this way in the USA... the (extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations are what keeps the doors open. So, your assessment of it *sinking* is incorrect since it has been this way in the USA on purpose and it has done things this way for a very long time.

----*I do not think I am getting you right. (this does not mean you are wrong, just that I am connecting). Do you really believe that Freemasonry/Masonry in the USA was designed to be financially supported by "(extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations(sic)"?

And I used the past tense "sunk" not the participle "sinking". 

And do you really suggest that Freemasonry in he USA was designed on purpose, to be financially supported in the manner you suggest?

My home lodge is supported by dues (some of course from inactive members), and fund raisers. I may be totally wrong, but I just do not believe that Bowling Green lodge was set up to supported by "(extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations(sic)". 

OF COURSE, I have no hard data, and I do not have access to the articles of incorporation of my lodge. (I am in Kuwait). So don't ask. 

*


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

cemab4y said:


> *Do you really believe that Freemasonry/Masonry in the USA was designed to be financially supported by "(extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations(sic)"?*


This sounds like the normal financial strategy of a national charity.  The question is: Is that what we are?


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> Has Masonry sunk to such a low level, that we must rely on the financial support of inactive members, just to keep the doors open?
> 
> 
> 
> coachn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brother, it was designed this way in the USA... the (extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations are what keeps the doors open. So, your assessment of it _sinking_ is incorrect since it has been this way in the USA on purpose and it has done things this way for a very long time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----I do not think I am getting you right. (this does not mean you are wrong, just that I am connecting). Do you really believe that Freemasonry/Masonry in the USA was _designed_ to be financially supported by "(extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations(sic)"?
Click to expand...

Yes.  And by random donations, I include the "fundraisers" that you mentioned.  And bank deposit interest includes anything that provides interest income stream from funds already gathered and invested to create those streams.



cemab4y said:


> And I used the past tense "sunk" not the participle "sinking".


Yup.  I was allowing for additional movement in your hyperbole.



cemab4y said:


> And do you really suggest that Freemasonry in he USA was designed on purpose, to be financially supported in the manner you suggest?


Once again, yes.


cemab4y said:


> My home lodge is supported by dues (some of course from inactive members), and fund raisers.


There ya go!  Bingo!


cemab4y said:


> I may be totally wrong, but I just do not believe that Bowling Green lodge was set up to supported by "(extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations(sic)".


Yet, you just confirmed that it is.



cemab4y said:


> OF COURSE, I have no hard data, and I do not have access to the articles of incorporation of my lodge. (I am in Kuwait). So don't ask.


Just follow the money.  You'll see that what pays the bills are just what I stated.  A Lodge that might have $30K in expenses, 150 members (of which maybe 30 are active) would have dues of $200 each, if that lodge didn't rely upon degree money, investment interest, and random donations (fundraisers included).

If that Lodge got rid of its inactive dues contributors, that would raise its membership dues to $1000 each, if no other income streams were tapped.

Inactive members provide what is called "residual" income streams for Lodges.  USA Lodges for the most part rely heavily upon them to keep the doors open.


----------



## coachn

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> This sounds like the normal financial strategy of a national charity.  The question is: Is that what we are?


According to the FL Digest it, Freemasonry as it is practiced in FL, is a charitable organization.  That and a religious organization and an educational organization.  Other jurisdictions may differ.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

coachn said:


> A Lodge that might have $30K in expenses, 150 members (of which maybe 30 are active) would have dues of $200 each


I'm looking at my dues statement as I write this.  $78.50 in dues, $52.50 of which goes to Grand Lodge.  That's $26 a year that goes to my home Lodge.  If that ain't artificially low then I need to start complaining about the quality of the food!


----------



## coachn

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> I'm looking at my dues statement as I write this.  $78.50 in dues, $52.50 of which goes to Grand Lodge.  That's $26 a year that goes to my home Lodge.  If that ain't artificially low then I need to start complaining about the quality of the food!


Yup. I factored in the per capita in the $30K figure.  And that $30K figure is very low compared to the expenses of many lodges.


----------



## dfreybur

On US Masonry having sunk to the level that it needs to dues of inactive members to function -

I disagree that this equals sinking.  For as far back as we have records officers have lamented the low turnout of members.  I think using inactive members as cash cows is a realistic reaction to the actual situation.  We're supposed to drop the superfluous, right?  I suggest that inactive members are not superfluous for that exact reason.  What is superfluous is resistance to this reality.  It's real so use it as such.

On US Masonry being designed to depend on low dues, low degree fees, donations and fund raisers -

Some use the word "designed" as a shorthand for "evolved".  Others use the word "designed" to imply a deliberate intent that was planned out in advance.  What actually happened is dues and degree fees were high in an era when the currency was in gold.  The gold was pulled from circulation triggering inflation and the Depression hit keeping many form being able to afford the high dues.  In a time with many petitioners dues were not adjusted for inflation to deal with the social trends of the time.  Over a period of decades the funding sources had to transition or lodges had to fail.  Very many lodges did in fact fail during the Depression.  I don't see how this could have been intended and it certainly was not widely discussed in the books of the time.  Not even the transition from small lodges to large lodges that was required by the change appears in books of the era.  To me calling the change "designed" is definitely a shorthand for "evolved".

Many lodges are now dependent on fund raisers.  As fund raisers increase the activity of the members I consider this trend to be a good thing.  As long as we don't go the route of the Girl Scouts, start selling a product and end up subject to anti-discrimination laws because we allowed ourselves to become a business enterprise.


----------



## coachn

Brother Doug: Yes, it has "evolved" to be this way and in each stage of that evolution there were deliberate decisions that were made by members in an effort to keep Lodges open.  And that is what I was making effort to communicate.  The USA Lodge funding systems in place now are designed to keep lodges operating.


----------



## RyanC

Coach as you put it lodges needs to make dues high enough to pay for the lodges, if your dues are lower than lodge expanses you are doomed to fail.


----------



## coachn

RyanC said:


> Coach as you put it lodges needs to make dues high enough to pay for the lodges, if your dues are lower than lodge expanses you are doomed to fail.


Yup OR destined to rely, yea "depend", upon inactive memberships paying the way, along with the aforementioned revenue sources. 

The problem members don't realize is that the USA Lodge revenue model as a whole does not provide for anything that generates revenue as a direct result of the product its members produce, other than producing ritualistic plays for paying patrons who wish to join or experience more of the same.  As a result, members pay to belong to this theatrical system and to keep the doors open because as a business it produces nothing of value to potential outside patrons, like the Stonecraft Lodges of yesteryear that each is "supposed" to be modeled after. 

But if any member realizes the truth, he realizes all too late that modern Freemasonic Lodges are NOT modeled after the Stonecraft Lodges.  They are modeled after something utterly different and hence the revenue structure it has today.  This also speaks to the problem of retaining members, which, if you think about it, for an organization that espouses truth, it has not come clean as to what it truly offers to its members.


----------



## LAMason

coachn said:


> ...This also speaks to the problem of retaining members, which, if you think about it, for an organization that espouses truth, it has not come clean as to what it truly offers to its members.



So true, if a man joins a Lodge thinking he is going to learn some secrets of  alchemy, Kabbalah, the occult, or such is going to be disappointed and most likely will drop out.

Also, why is it necessary to fictionalize the history of Freemasonry by claiming lineage to Egypt, the Knights Templars, and the Illuminati.  But this tradition of making unfounded claims goes all the way back to James Anderson's history in the Constitutions he authored, so how do we proceed to clean it up?


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

RyanC said:


> Coach as you put it lodges needs to make dues high enough to pay for the lodges, if your dues are lower than lodge expanses you are doomed to fail.


My Lodge has improved to the point where only 85% of the members are inactive.  About 50% of the inactives are life members, so they pay no dues.  The lodge however is still obligated to pay their per capita.  This means that half of our inactive members have absolutely no interaction with the Lodge whatsoever, except that they cost the Lodge money.  Dues currently contribute 60% of the operating expenses of the Lodge.  If I wrote this up as a business plan do you think the bank would give us a loan?


----------



## coachn

LAMason said:


> So true, if a man joins a Lodge thinking he is going to learn some secrets of  alchemy, Kabbalah, the occult, or such is going to be disappointed and most likely will drop out.
> 
> Also, why is it necessary to fictionalize the history of Freemasonry by claiming lineage to Egypt, the Knights Templars, and the Illuminati.  But this tradition of making unfounded claims goes all the way back to James Anderson's history in the Constitutions he authored, so how do we proceed to clean it up?



The clean up is occurring with some pretty good masonic forensics being done by a hand full of authors.  Unfortunately, not one GL shall support the findings because it ruins the fantasy being currently sold to current and future members up and down every leg of the organization.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

coachn said:


> The clean up is occurring with some pretty good masonic forensics being done by a hand full of authors.  Unfortunately, not one GL shall support the findings because it ruins the fantasy being currently sold to current and future members up and down every leg of the organization.


Two things come rapidly to mind as I read this post.  The first is a personal story.  In the mid 70's I studied karate for a couple years.  Along with the physical discipline we learned the history of our particular branch of the martial arts.  Twenty five years later I had the opportunity to study that particular martial art again.  The physical art was exactly the same, but the history they were teaching was completely different.  Even the names of the katas had been changed.  The reason was that China had opened up to the U.S. and scholars had discovered more correct information about the history of the art.  My point here is that _the history we have today is more accurate than the history that was written at the time._

The second thing that comes to mind is that I never believed that Freemasonry could claim _lineage to Egypt, the Knights Templars, and the Illuminati._  What I do believe is that Freemasonry seeks to preserve the "intellectual lineage" (that's the best phrase I could come up with) of accurate thinking and understanding.  It does this through an initiatory form of experiential learning.  (again, that's the best phrase I could come up with)   It is this intellectual inheritance that I find fascinating in Freemasonry.  It guides me toward better and more enlightened thinking.  

I believe that there have always been those who elevated their thinking above that of the masses.  I believe that these people have always sought each other out.  I believe that this is the intellectual inheritance of Freemasonry.

*Disclaimer:* No part of this post is based on verifiable facts or reliable information. (other than the karate stuff, which I experienced)  It is based mostly on how I feel and how things seem to me.  Any resemblance to actual reality is completely coincidental.


----------



## JJones

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> I believe that there have always been those who elevated their thinking above that of the masses. I believe that these people have always sought each other out. I believe that this is the intellectual inheritance of Freemasonry.



Whoa, careful now! Some people will wring their hands and call you an elitist for thinking like that.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

JJones said:


> Whoa, careful now! Some people will wring their hands and call you an elitist for thinking like that.


 I should be OK as long as they don't figure out that I am also subversive.


----------



## Glen Cook

coachn said:


> The clean up is occurring with some pretty good masonic forensics being done by a hand full of authors.  Unfortunately, not one GL shall support the findings because it ruins the fantasy being currently sold to current and future members up and down every leg of the organization.


Well, that's a a bit harsh.  You'd be surprised at how well the smallest GL in the continental U.S. can adapt.


----------



## coachn

Glen Cook said:


> Well, that's a a bit harsh.  You'd be surprised at how well the smallest GL in the continental U.S. can adapt.


I look forward to the day when that surprise shall occur and I shall welcome it with open arms.


----------



## LAMason

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> ...I believe that there have always been those who elevated their thinking above that of the masses.  I believe that these people have always sought each other out.  I believe that this is the intellectual inheritance of Freemasonry...



So why is Freemasonry's “target market” the masses?  If as CoachN said this system/strategy was designed or has evolved in response to Freemasonry’s financial model, why is it continuing to be followed.  It is obviously failing due to shifts in culture and demography.

Should Freemasonry continue to be “marketed” to “big box store” discount price average quality product customers (“the masses”), begin marketing to “boutique store” high price superior quality product customers (“those who elevate their thinking above the masses”), or some other strategy?

***DISCLAIMER***I am not proposing a particular change.  In fact, I had never thought about it in these terms until I read CoachN’s posts, but they got my “little grey cells" to working.***


----------



## coachn

LAMason said:


> ...  In fact, I had never thought about it in these terms until I read CoachN’s posts, but they got my “little grey cells to working.***


... my work... it is done... ;-)


----------



## JJones

LAMason said:


> So why is Freemasonry's “target market” the masses?  If as CoachN said this system/strategy was designed or has evolved in response to Freemasonry’s financial model, why is it continuing to be followed.  It is obviously failing due to shifts in culture and demography.
> 
> Should Freemasonry continue to be “marketed” to “big box store” discount price average quality product customers (“the masses”), begin marketing to “boutique store” high price superior quality product customers (“those who elevate their thinking above the masses”), or some other strategy?
> 
> ***DISCLAIMER***I am not proposing a particular change.  In fact, I had never thought about it in these terms until I read CoachN’s posts, but they got my “little grey cells" to working.***



Quality cannot be mass produced and is expensive.  It also lasts longer and retains it's value longer.

Many brothers are more worried about quality without the understanding that you compromise quality with more and more quantity.  If you want to see this for yourself then go look at tables in Wal-Mart and compare those with some well-made hand-crafted tables if you can find any for sell locally.  One is cheaply made with quantity in mind, using inferior materials and assembly methods (also known as 'planned obsolescence', which is a whole other thread in itself) where the other is likely far more expensive, made out of superior materials, and well assembled.  This is because it was designed with quality in mind, the builder/company has a reputation to uphold.

Anyhow, long story short: You can have quality and you can have quantity but you cannot have both at the same time.  They are polar opposites and one repels the other.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

LAMason said:


> So why is Freemasonry's “target market” the masses?  If as CoachN said this system/strategy was designed or has evolved in response to Freemasonry’s financial model, why is it continuing to be followed.  It is obviously failing due to shifts in culture and demography.
> 
> Should Freemasonry continue to be “marketed” to “big box store” discount price average quality product customers (“the masses”), begin marketing to “boutique store” high price superior quality product customers (“those who elevate their thinking above the masses”), or some other strategy?
> 
> ***DISCLAIMER***I am not proposing a particular change.  In fact, I had never thought about it in these terms until I read CoachN’s posts, but they got my “little grey cells" to working.***


The big box VS boutique question.  If only I had a personal recollection that bears on this issue.  {dreamy music swells and the screen dissolves into wavy lines}  Two years before I became a MM my jurisdiction streamlined the ritual and greatly simplified the examinations.  (my examination consisted of giving the word, grip and saying yes after each promise was read to me.)  When I discovered that the examination that I took was not the same one my father and grandfather had taken I became determined to learn theirs.  Working from an old one letter key I reconstructed the old catechism.  Then, having learned it on my own, I proposed to my WM that I be allowed to perform it in Lodge as an entertainment.  I figured that the old guys would enjoy hearing it again and the new guys would learn something.  I was surprised when he told me that when the G.L. approved the new examination they also outlawed the old catechism style examination and that it was a Masonic offense to perform it in open Lodge.  When I asked why he told me that only one system of examination could be used because (and here is the point) _they wanted to avoid the perception that there were two types of Masons._

Soooo, as long as we need the income from the inactives to keep out Lodges open, we need to keep them convinced that they are 100% Masons.  We can't allow them to think that maybe there are two types of Masonry and theirs is the inferior one.   Of course the easiest way to make everyone equal is to teach everyone nothing.  But that would be silly.  We wouldn't do that would we?


----------



## crono782

> When I asked why he told me that only one system of examination could be used because (and here is the point) they wanted to avoid the perception that there were two types of Masons.



Texas, at least according to one of our working tools, says it is totally down w/ some contention within the Craft as long as it is of the noble sort. I'm very proud that I learn all the ritual I can and that we haven't yet come to the "every Mason gets a trophy" mentality (just) yet.


----------



## dfreybur

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> My Lodge has improved to the point where only 85% of the members are inactive.  About 50% of the inactives are life members, so they pay no dues.  The lodge however is still obligated to pay their per capita.  This means that half of our inactive members have absolutely no interaction with the Lodge whatsoever, except that they cost the Lodge money.  Dues currently contribute 60% of the operating expenses of the Lodge.  If I wrote this up as a business plan do you think the bank would give us a loan?



If the endowment does not cover the per capita then the endowment rules need to be corrected moving forward and/or there needs to be some sort of ""Proposition 13" reaction to GL per capita increases.  Maybe both.

Many of the years I have attended GL there were rules changes to improve the life membership aka endowment rules.  All too often those improvements were voted down.  We delegates as a whole have shot ourselves in the foot when it comes to endowments and trust fund distributions.


----------



## Glen Cook

LAMason said:


> So true, if a man joins a Lodge thinking he is going to learn some secrets of  alchemy, Kabbalah, the occult, or such is going to be disappointed and most likely will drop out.
> 
> Also, why is it necessary to fictionalize the history of Freemasonry by claiming lineage to Egypt, the Knights Templars, and the Illuminati.  But this tradition of making unfounded claims goes all the way back to James Anderson's history in the Constitutions he authored, so how do we proceed to clean it up?


When I hit Like I don't mean I'm happy about this state affairs. I remember a brother getting very upset when I explained it was the Hiramic _legend_. Similar to your indication, I fancy I can predict the likelihood of new members leaving because he will not find the subjects you referenced taught.


----------



## Glen Cook

dfreybur said:


> If the endowment does not cover the per capita then the endowment rules need to be corrected moving forward and/or there needs to be some sort of ""Proposition 13" reaction to GL per capita increases.  Maybe both.
> 
> Many of the years I have attended GL there were rules changes to improve the life membership aka endowment rules.  All too often those improvements were voted down.  We delegates as a whole have shot ourselves in the foot when it comes to endowments and trust fund distributions.


I have seen repeated failure in setting the endowment/life memberships at the correct level.  There was even one Lodge giving them away as an honor, resulting in desperate financial circumstances. 

In Utah, it is the representatives to GL which set the per capita.


----------



## Companion Joe

In my state, a life membership is 20X your current annual dues. Up front, the lodge loses a little financially each year, but it will continue to pay dividends perpetually after the member has died. In the long run, they are good for individuals and lodges. The number seems to work.


----------



## Glen Cook

Companion Joe said:


> In my state, a life membership is 20X your current annual dues. Up front, the lodge loses a little financially each year, but it will continue to pay dividends perpetually after the member has died. In the long run, they are good for individuals and lodges. The number seems to work.


Agreed, if dues are set high enough and if the principle isn't invaded.


----------



## LAMason




----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Brother Doug: Yes, it has "evolved" to be this way and in each stage of that evolution there were deliberate decisions that were made by members in an effort to keep Lodges open. And that is what I was making effort to communicate. The USA Lodge funding systems in place now are designed to keep lodges operating.




--I am still not following you. First, you say the system(lodges) were designed to be supported by "(extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations(sic)". Your words exactly, 

and then you say "Yes, it has "evolved" to be this way(sic)". Again, your words exactly. Evolution means change. Which is it? Design or evolution?

In my mother lodge (Bowling Green KY), the cost of dues has definetly NOT kept up with inflation. Dues are therefore less (in inflation-adjusted costs) than the dues were when the lodge was founded. (please do not ask for hard data, I am in Kuwait).

AND- Bowling Green lodge does not have an "endowment fund", or any other interest-bearing accounts which are providing funds to operate the lodge. I suggested such a fund, some years ago, and my idea was rejected. The lodge membership said (as they almost always do) that "We never did it that way before".


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...In my mother lodge (Bowling Green KY), the cost of dues has definetly [sic] NOT kept up with inflation. Dues are therefore less (in inflation-adjusted costs) than the dues were when the lodge was founded. (please do not ask for hard data, I am in Kuwait).
> 
> AND- Bowling Green lodge does not have an "endowment fund", or any other interest-bearing accounts which are providing funds to operate the lodge. I suggested such a fund, some years ago, and my idea was rejected. The lodge membership said (as they almost always do) that "We never did it that way before"...



In reference to your Mother Lodge:

Do they collect enough from dues to support the operation of the Lodge even though dues have not kept up with inflation?
If not, how do they cover the deficit?
In regards to the "endowment fund", you indicate that the Lodge does not have existing surplus funds (interest bearing accounts) that can be designated and managed as an "endowment fund", so how did you propose to fund and manage it?

From operating surplus?
From an assessment on the members?
Some other method?
Or did you just throw it out there in the manner, I think we should have an "endowment fund", and expect others to sign on to the suggestion and figure it out, so you could start posting online that you are responsible for your Mother Lodge having an "endowment fund"?


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> --I am still not following you.


Yes, that has been clear.


cemab4y said:


> First, you say the system(lodges) were designed to be supported by "(extremely reduced) dues, low degrees costs, bank deposit interest and random donations(sic)". Your words exactly,


Your point?


cemab4y said:


> and then you say "Yes, it has "evolved" to be this way(sic)". Again, your words exactly. Evolution means change. Which is it? Design or evolution?


I believe I was clear in my response.  BUT, let me try yet another way to say the same exact thing but in a different way: That evolution was driven by a *series of decisions* DESIGNED to keep dues EXTREMELY REDUCED by fostering further dependence upon other revenue sources to support those dues.  BTW - If you check out Lodge operations outside the USA, there are about 30 to 45 members per lodge, a new member only comes into the lodge in dead man's shoes, the dues cover the expenses and the expenses are low (in relation to what is offered) because there's very little "dead, as in non-moneymaking" overhead. USA lodges usually own the building they meet in.  There are rarely other lodges or other organizations/businesses sharing the building.  USA lodges have high overheads in relation to what is provided for that overhead.  The money to support these lodges is usually offset by things other than dues because $1000+ annual dues for most MS lodges is way more than most members are willing to put forth.

If all this is not clear to you, then I am not your light bearer on this.



cemab4y said:


> In my mother lodge (Bowling Green KY), the cost of dues has definetly NOT kept up with inflation.


and you can't see what I have been sharing?!?!?!  It's clearly right before you!  Your lodge dues are deliberately designed to be low with a fostered dependence upon another revenue source to make up the difference!


cemab4y said:


> Dues are therefore less (in inflation-adjusted costs) than the dues were when the lodge was founded. (please do not ask for hard data, I am in Kuwait).


AND... other things must be done to keep those extremely reduced dues intact!



cemab4y said:


> AND- Bowling Green lodge does not have an "endowment fund", or any other interest-bearing accounts which are providing funds to operate the lodge. I suggested such a fund, some years ago, and my idea was rejected. The lodge membership said (as they almost always do) that "We never did it that way before".


So, looking for donations in the form of fundraisers is now part of the design of your lodge operations.  Yes, this is intentional, no matter how covert it might be.

Furthermore, it is also a heavy unbrotherly burden upon the active members as it puts the load upon their shoulders to make up the difference that is not paid by the inactive members!


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> In reference to your Mother Lodge:
> 
> Do they collect enough from dues to support the operation of the Lodge even though dues have not kept up with inflation?
> If not, how do they cover the deficit?
> In regards to the "endowment fund", you indicate that the Lodge does not have existing surplus funds (interest bearing accounts) that can be designated and managed as an "endowment fund", so how did you propose to fund and manage it?
> 
> From operating surplus?
> From an assessment on the members?
> Some other method?
> Or did you just throw it out there in the manner, I think we should have an "endowment fund", and expect others to sign on to the suggestion and figure it out, so you could start posting online that you are responsible for your Mother Lodge having an "endowment fund"?


=================

My home lodge collects dues of $83.00 per year per member. A portion of this is rebated to the Grand Lodge, the balance stays with the lodge. Several masonically-affiliated bodies share the building where the lodge meets. There is a "temple association", and all of the various bodies (with the exception of the youth groups), manage the operation and maintenance of the building. Each "tenant" contributes a share, based on the percentage of the temple association which is owned by the various groups. (The youth groups are permitted to use the building free of charge).

The dues of the Craft Lodge alone, are not sufficient to operate the facility, but the combined resources of the temple association members are adequate to meet expenses.

The lodge has a small "rainy day" fund, that can be tapped to meet any unusual expenses. If there is a major need, like a new water heater, we will have a fund-raiser.

Some years ago, I proposed that the Craft lodge explore the possibility of setting up an endowment fund, to purchase interest-bearing securities, to assist in financing lodge activities, and to help moderate dues increases in the future. ALL I did was to propose a "feasibility study", and examine the possibility. No one was interested, so I dropped it.

I envisioned setting up a committee to establish a fund. 

The initial "seed" capital, would come from the following:

1-Members (and anyone) would be asked to contribute as they wished.
2-On the annual dues form, there would be a line, where each member could contribute any amount they wished, over and above their dues assessment.
3-Fund-raisers (pancake breakfasts,etc) could be held, and some or all of the proceeds would be plowed into the fund. 
4-Members would be encouraged to make a provision in their wills, for a contribution.


. The monies collected would be used to purchase securities, certificates of deposit, etc. The revenues from the fund would initially be plowed back into the fund, and after some years, the revenue would be tapped to help meet lodge expenses. I did some preliminary research, and I was willing to chair the committee, and get the project organized. No one was interested, so I just dropped it.

I assure you, I was NOT interested in my personal glory. I have found that it is amazing what can get accomplished, when you do not care who gets the credit. Some (not all) members grumble every time that there is an increase in lodge dues. I felt that an endowment fund would be a way to help meet lodge expenses, without having to hike dues every year. The idea never got off the ground, so it died.

I found it somewhat ironic, that the members who grumble and complain the loudest about dues increases, were the same ones who were against the endowment fund, to help moderate future dues increases.


----------



## cemab4y

“Art is not a mirror to reflect the world, but a hammer with which to shape it.”
―Vladimir Mayakovsky

One idea that I have been kicking around for some years, is one that I picked up from a movie. In "Mr. Smith goes to Washington" (1939), the plot involves the idea of setting up a "National Boys Camp" , where boys from all over America would go for a summer, to learn about American history and government. 

I would like to pick up and modernize this idea, and maybe make it a reality. First, it would have to be co-ed, young ladies and young men. 

Freemason Richard Dreyfuss has started the "Dreyfuss Initiative" .  See  http://www.thedreyfussinitiative.org     Its goals are simple:

“To teach our kids how to run our country, before they are called upon to run our country…if we don’t, someone else will run our country.” - Richard *Dreyfuss*

I believe that the Masonic community in the USA, could come together, and provide the financing and direction to make a national youth camp for civics instruction a reality. 

We could establish a camp in a rural area, maybe in the Rocky Mountain area. We could invite kids from all over America, to spend the summer there. The camp would provide civics and history instruction. We could get some guest instructors from major colleges and from the US government and military. The kids would get instruction in the mornings. In the afternoons, they could participate in wholesome recreational activities like horseback riding, backpacking etc. 

Tuition could be charged on a sliding scale, enabling kids from modest backgrounds to afford the experience. Individual lodges could sponsor a scholarship program, and locate a deserving student in their community, and then send the young person to the camp. 

An effort like this would be a continuation of our splendid tradition of universal education. The Wolcott Foundation (affiliated with High-Twelve International) provides scholarships for graduate studies in government at George Washington University. 

What do you think about this? Could we make this happen? 

I believe that an effort like this would be an opportunity to influence many young people in government, and perhaps lead them towards a career in public service.


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## pointwithinacircle2

Unless you are capable of creating and funding this on your own, you are asking others to do it for you.  Great Ideas are a dime a dozen, and that is about what they are worth.  

Instead of creating something new, why not support DeMolay?  Instead of teaching boys *about *leaders, DeMolay teaches boys *to be* leaders.  IMHO, being a role model for one boy is worth more than teaching 10,000 boys to define the term "role model".


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## coachn

cemab4y said:


> ...I believe that the Masonic community in the USA, could come together, and provide the financing and direction to make a national youth camp for civics instruction a reality. ...
> 
> What do you think about this? Could we make this happen?



Great Idea... however, Freemasonry as an organization should not be involved whatsoever.  SO, we should not make it happen.

Freemasonry is scattered in far too many ineffective and superfluous directions.  It would be far better for it to clean up its own ACT before STAGING inroads toward any other "worthy" distractions.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...Freemason Richard Dreyfuss has started the "Dreyfuss Initiative" .  See  http://www.thedreyfussinitiative.org...








Based on your previous post in another forum he was made a Mason and became a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason in 1 or 2 days.  Has he contributed anything to Freemasonry since becoming a Mason?  His bio on the site you listed does not even mention his Masonic affiliation.


----------



## LAMason

Sorry, double post.  Content deleted.


----------



## coachn

LAMason said:


> Based on your previous post in another forum he was made a Mason and became a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason in 1 or 2 days.  Has he contributed anything to Freemasonry since becoming a Mason?  His bio on the site you listed does not even mention his Masonic affiliation.


Good God Man!  It's "RICHARD DREYFUSS"!!!!  What does his Masonic Affiliation matter?  IT'S RICHARD DREYFUSS!!!!!!


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...*We* could establish a camp in a rural area...*We* could invite kids from all over America, to spend the summer there...*We* could get some guest instructors from major colleges and from the US government and military...
> 
> ...Could *we* make this happen?...



“We”, do you have a mouse in your pocket?

I do not think that Freemasonry can or should create a charity/foundation for every societal need, but if you want to be taken seriously you should put forth the effort to develop a detailed business plan before you make a proposal and not rely on the efforts of others to accomplish your goals.

Now a few random quotes:

"Vision without execution is hallucination.” Thomas Edison

“He is all hat and no cattle.” Author unknown

“He is a legend in his own mind.”  Author unknown

“Money talks and bull$hit walks.”  Author unknown, but the first time I heard it was from an old country bank President.


----------



## cemab4y

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Unless you are capable of creating and funding this on your own, you are asking others to do it for you.  Great Ideas are a dime a dozen, and that is about what they are worth.
> 
> Instead of creating something new, why not support DeMolay?  Instead of teaching boys *about *leaders, DeMolay teaches boys *to be* leaders.  IMHO, being a role model for one boy is worth more than teaching 10,000 boys to define the term "role model".



I was living in Northern VA. There was a new DeMolay chapter getting underway, and I volunteered to help. I took the classes to be an adult advisor.

Later, the DDGM for the area gave me an "ass-chewing", and said that I was working to undermine the existing DeMolay chapter in North VA. I was deeply hurt and "flabbergasted". In Arlington/Fairfax county VA, an area with over 600,000 people, there is certainly enough young men to have two DeMolay chapters. 

I later told the adult leadership of the new chapter, and they were also stunned.

Sadly, there is a great deal of "turf" in Masonry. 

I appreciate your telling me to get involved with DeMolay. Sadly, I tried. If I could do it, without getting the Deputy District Grand Master angry at me, I would.


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> Based on your previous post in another forum he was made a Mason and became a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason in 1 or 2 days.  Has he contributed anything to Freemasonry since becoming a Mason?  His bio on the site you listed does not even mention his Masonic affiliation.



--Brother Dreyfuss took the Craft degrees in a special class, presented in WashDC as the post states. He then took the SR degrees immediately thereafter. He walked in to the building at 0900am with no Masonic affiliation. He left the building before lunch, a 32d degree SR mason. (At that time) he was made a member of Potomac Lodge #5, F&AM WashDC, and the WashDC Scottish Rite bodies.

I personally submitted his Masonic membership information to "wikipedia", and after confirmation, the affiliations were listed. Some months later, Wikipedia removed the information. (Don't ask me why, I honestly do not know).

If you are interested in what he has contributed to Masonry, you will have to ask him directly. He is big Hollywood actor, and I just an engineer, out in the Kuwait desert.


----------



## coachn

It's very strange to see that an agnostic was allowed to join the Craft:  http://cnsnews.com/news/article/act...re-s-god-politically-uncivil-guys-are-trouble

But he is listed as an American Freemason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_Freemasons


----------



## cemab4y

pointwithinacircle2 said:


> Unless you are capable of creating and funding this on your own, you are asking others to do it for you.  Great Ideas are a dime a dozen, and that is about what they are worth.



I suggest that you view the movie "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington". The proposal for the national boys camp, calls for the Federal Government to issue a loan, and the camp to be built, and then the loan to be paid back, by the young men, who would go to the camp.

Of course, I do not have the millions of dollars, that such a venture would cost. And of course, if such a venture ever came to fruition, the costs would be borne by a combination of donations, and tuition paid by the attendees, and perhaps an endowment fund. 

Of couse I cannot create such a venture "on my own". That is preposterous. 

"Lead, follow. or get out of the way". -Laurence J. Peter


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...He walked in to the building at 0900am with no Masonic affiliation. He left the building before lunch, a 32d degree SR mason...


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> “We”, do you have a mouse in your pocket?
> 
> I do not think that Freemasonry can or should create a charity/foundation for every societal need, but if you want to be taken seriously you should put forth the effort to develop a detailed business plan before you make a proposal and not rely on the efforts of others to accomplish your goals.
> 
> Now a few random quotes:
> 
> "Vision without execution is hallucination.” Thomas Edison
> 
> “He is all hat and no cattle.” Author unknown
> 
> “He is a legend in his own mind.”  Author unknown
> 
> “Money talks and bull$hit walks.”  Author unknown, but the first time I heard it was from an old country bank President.



======================


"WE" is used, in this context, as a first-person plural pronoun, not as onomatopoeia. If you do not wish to part of "WE", then just stay out of the discussion.
Most people do not take me seriously, anyway. And I am not especially interested in being taken seriously.

I am a telecommunications engineer, not an educator, nor an expert in fund-raising, nor remotely capable of developing a "detailed business plan" for such an endeavour. For an idea like this to take root, and grow, it will take the efforts of many individuals, and barrels of money. The only way it could happen is to rely on the efforts of others. That is why there are charitable foundations, and committees. We might even get a grant from the MacArthur foundation, or another philanthropic foundation or Bill Gates.



If you do not think that Freemasonry can or should create a charity/foundation, that is your right. Thankfully, most Masons do not agree with you. If you feel that charitable and humanitarian activities are not in the scope of Freemasonry, I suggest you read this list:

(This is a PARTIAL listing of what Freemasonry (and the appendant/concordant bodies) are doing.

=================

What Freemasonry does…
Simply, Freemasonry builds and advances the character of men to make them better.
Building on principals of moral integrity, Freemasons hold brotherly love as paramount to the benefit of mankind. Whether through charitable acts, or by direct involvement, Freemasonry has dedicated itself to the prosperity of mankind.
On the individual level, Freemasonry builds on moral philosophy, through allegorical symbols to impart rich and complex meanings about the divine. What that means is through Masonic education, individuals are given their own personal building blocks to contribute to the build of their own personal moral character, and then charged with applying that purpose in their day-to-day life.
It does not act to impart religion to its membership, instead it builds on the tenants and virtues taught by all religions, including a faith in the divine, the application of the Golden Rule, and the value of leading a moral virtuous life, all with the drive to put these ideas into personal practice. It promotes the active participation in the member’s individual faith tradition, charging them to build their spiritual character.
Throughout the mason’s life, the lessons of morality and ethics are revisited through the extensions of the various bodies of Freemasonry, building on the principals of Freemasonry. Seldom can a mason say they have learned all of the meanings taught to them through the degrees.
By serving to promote brotherly love masons are now involved in extended levels of charity and benevolence to meet the needs of those least able in society.
To serves as an example, Freemasons are involved in all of these charitable organizations, giving to the needs of others.
•Childhood language disorders
•Treatment for birth defects
•Scholarship and direct grants to children and grandchildren of Scottish Rite Masons as well as to members of DeMolay, Job’s Daughters, Rainbow for Girls, and other
•Masonic youth groups
•Research on diabetes
•A summer camp for underprivileged children
•Arteriosclerosis research
•Christmas Day Dinner for the Des Moines community
•Cancer research
•Training awards for religious leadership and those making religious work their career
•A museum and monument to George Washington
•Grants to students at in Schools of Government and Business
•Administration and International Affairs
•Dental care for handicapped children
•Scholarship assistance to nursing students
•Geriatric research
•Child development for good citizenship and sound character for boys and girls
•Outpatient services for cancer treatment
•Low cost education loans
•Eye surgery and prescription glasses
•Treatment for cancer patients and cancer research support
•Masonic Hospital Visitation Program for V.A. Hospital volunteers
•Research in heart disease, cancer, aging, hypertension, and blood substitutes
•Meeting and performance facilities at the International Peace Garden
•A clearinghouse on Masonic information
•Education of youth about drugs and alcohol
•Ohio Special Olympics
•A non-denominational chapel for mediation and religious services at the International Peace Garden
•Research into the causes and treatment of schizophrenia and related disorders
•Research into auditory perception disorders in children
•A Georgia children’s medical Center
•A museum and library focusing on our American heritage as well as Freemasonry’s role in the history of our country
•The first public library in the District of Columbia
•Scholarships and fellowships for Ph.D. candidates in Public School Administration
•Support for students seeking degrees in fields associated with service to country and humanity Orthopedic services to children through a network of 22 hospitals and treatment for burns victims at four burns centers
•Support for the Muscular Dystrophy Association
•A provider of new shoes for needy Tennessee and Alabama children
•An orthopedic, neuralgic, and child development hospital in Texas
•Operates a clinic for dyslexic and aphasia disorders in children
•Provides needy homeless children in the school district with clothing and toiletries

The following is a brief listing of these American Masonic Charities mentioned above:
Abbott Scottish Rite Scholarship Program
Provides direct grants to children and grandchildren of Scottish Rite masons, as well as members of DeMolay, Job’s Daughters, Rainbow Girls, and other Masonic youth groups.
Supreme Council, 33rd Degree, N.M.J.
P.O. Box 519
33 Marrett Road
Lexington, Massachusetts 02173
(617) 862-4410
Amaranth Diabetes Foundation
(Supports research on diabetes)
The Supreme Council, Order of the Amaranth
Mrs. Ethel B. Fry, Supreme Secretary
2303 Murdoch Avenue
Parkersburg, West Virginia 26101
(304) 485-0423 or (304) 428-1565


*I ESPECIALLY LIKE THIS ONE!!!!*

Camp Chicota          
A summer camp for underprivileged children
Grand Lodge of Louisiana, Prince Hall Affiliation
1335-37 North Boulevard
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70821
(504) 387-0996





Cryptic Masons Medical Research Foundation
Supports arteriosclerosis research
Cryptic Masons Medical Research Foundation
Marion K. Crum, Executive Secretary
Route 4, Box 301
Nashville, Indiana 47448
(812) 988-8655
Des Moines Masonic Christmas Day Dinner
Provides Christmas Day Dinner for the community
Masonic Christmas Day Dinner
Masonic Temple
1011 Locus Street
Des Moines, Iowa 50309
(515) 244-6011
Eastern Star Cancer Research Project
Supports cancer research
General Grand Chapter, Order of the Eastern Star
1618 New Hampshire Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20009-2578
(202) 667-4737

Eastern Star Training Awards for Religious Leadership
Supports those who are making religious work their career
General Grand Chapter, Order of the Eastern Star
1618 New Hampshire Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20009-2578
(202) 667-4737
General Grand Chapter, Order of the Eastern Star
Supports the Peace Chapel at the International Peace Garden which
provides a non-denominational chapel for meditation and religious
services
General Grand Chapter, Order of the Eastern Star
1618 New Hampshire Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20009-2578
(202) 667-4737
George Washington Masonic National Memorial
A museum and monument to our first President (and a Mason)
George Washington Masonic National Memorial
101 Calahan Drive
Alexandria, Virginia 22301
(703) 683-2007
George Washington University Grants
Provides grants to students in the Schools of Government and
Business Administration and International Affairs and matching
grants for graduate students
Supreme Council, 33rd Degree, Southern Jurisdiction
1733 Sixteenth Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20009-3199
*****-SR MASON
Grotto Dentistry for the Handicapped Program
Provides dental care to handicapped children
Supreme Council, M.O.V.P.E.R.
34 N. Fourth Street
Columbus, Ohio 43215
(614) 463-9193
Illinois Scottish Rite Nursing Scholarships
Provides scholarship assistance to nursing students throughout
the State of Illinois
Illinois Scottish Rite Fund
Illinois Council of Deliberation
915 N. Dearborn Street
Chicago, Illinois 60610
(312) 787-7605
Indiana Masonic Home Foundation
An endowment which supports the Indiana Masonic Home, a retirement
and convalescence center. Located on 360 acres, is home for over
400 residents.
P. O. Box 44210
525 North Illinois Street
Indianapolis, Indiana 46224-0210
(800) 277-4643
Indianapolis Scottish Rite Foundation
Supports geriatric research at the University of Indiana Medical School
Indianapolis Scottish Rite Bodies
650 N. Meridian Street
Indianapolis, Indiana 46204-1294
(317) 635-2301
International Order of Job’s Daughters
A organization for girls between the ages of eleven and twenty who are relatives of Master Masons
Supreme Guardian Council, International Order of Job’s Daughters
233 West 6th Street
Papillion, Nebraska 68046
(402) 592-7987
International Order of Rainbow for Girls
A organization for girls between the ages of eleven and eighteen who are daughters of Masonic or Eastern Star families or friends of such girls
International Order of Rainbow for Girls
P.O. Box 788
McAlester, Oklahoma 74502
(918) 423-1328
Kansas Masonic Oncology Center
Provides out-patient services for cancer treatment
Kansas Masonic Foundation
320 West 8th Street
P.O. Box 1217
Topeka, Kansas 66601-1217
(913) 357-7646
Knights Templar Educational Foundation
Provides students with low-cost education loans
5097 Elston Ave, Suite 101
Chicago, Illinois 60630-2460
(312) 427-5670
Knights Templar Eye Foundation
Supports eye surgery and prescription glasses
P.O. Box 579
Springfield, Illinois 62705-0579
(217) 523-3838
Minnesota Masonic Cancer Center
Provides treatment for cancer patients and supports research
Masonic Cancer Center Fund, Inc.
1700 West Highway 36, Suite 120
Roseville, Minnesota 55113
(612)639-8433
Masonic Hospital Visitation Program
Provides Masonic volunteers to work with patients at Veterans
Administration and military hospitals
Masonic Services Association of the United States
8120 Fenton Street
Silver Spring, Maryland 20910
(301) 588-4010
Masonic Medical Research Laboratory, Utica, New York
Supports research in heart disease, cancer, aging, hypertension,
and blood substitutes
2150 Bleeker Street
Utica, New York 13501-1787
(315) 735-2217
Masonic Memorial Auditorium, International Peace Garden
Provides meeting and performance facilities for visitors
Grand Lodge of North Dakota
201 14th Avenue North
Fargo, North Dakota 58102
(701) 235-8321
Masonic Services Association of the United States
Serves as a clearing house for Masonic information
National Masonic Foundation for the Prevention of
Drug and Alcohol Abuse Among Children
Supports education for youth about drugs and alcohol
1629 K Street N.W., Suite 606
Washington, D.C. 20006
(202) 331-1933
Ohio Special Olympics
The Masonic Grand Lodge of Ohio sponsors every Ohio Special Olympian at these games
Grand Lodge of Ohio
P.O. Box 629
Worthington, Ohio 43085-0629
(614) 885-5318
Order of DeMolay
A fraternal organization for boys between the ages of thirteen and
twenty-one; its purpose is the encouragement and development of good
citizenship and sound character
International Supreme Council, Order of DeMolay
10200 N. Executive Hills Boulevard
P.O. Box 901342
Kansas City, Missouri 64190-1342
(816) 891-8333
Research In Schizophrenia
Supports research into the causes and treatment of schizophrenia and related disorders
Supreme Council, 33rd Degree, N.M.J.
P.O. Box 519
33 Marrett Road
Lexington, Massachusetts 02173
(617) 862-4410
Royal Arch Research Assistance Program
Supports research into auditory perception disorders in children
General Grand Chapter, Royal Arch Masons International
111 South 4th Street
Danville, Kentucky 40423-0489
(606) 236-0757
Scottish Rite Children’s Medical Center in Georgia
Provides generalized and specialized services to children
Scottish Rites Children’s Medical Center
1001 Johnson Ferry Road, N.E.
Atlanta, Georgia 30363
(404) 256-5252
Scottish Rite Museum of Our National Heritage
A museum and library focusing on our American heritage as well as
Freemasonry’s role in the history of our country
Supreme Council, 33rd Degree, N.M.J.
P.O. Box 519
33 Marrett Road
Lexington, Massachusetts 02173
(617) 862-4410
Scottish Rite Supreme Council Library
The first public library in the District of Columbia which today
serves the general public as well as international Masonic scholars
Supreme Council, 33rd Degree, Southern Jurisdiction
1733 Sixteenth Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20009-3199
http://www.srmason-sj.org
Shepherd Scholarship
Supports students seeking degrees in fields associated with service
to country and humanity
Shriners Hospitals for Children and Shriners Burn Institutes
Provides orthopedic services to children through a network of 22
hospitals and treatment for burns victims at three burns centers,
also provides specialized medical services for spinal cord injuries,
and cleft palates.
Direct phone to Shriners Hospitals for Children (USA)  800-237-5055
Shriner Headquarters
2900 Rocky Point Drive
Tampa, Florida 33607
[USA -  (800) 282-9161 ] [Canada -  (800) 361-7256 ] [All other areas
call collect -  (813) 281-0300 ]
Tall Cedar Foundation
Supports the Muscular Dystrophy Association
Supreme Forest, Tall Cedars of Lebanon
2609 N. Front Street
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 17110
(717) 232-5991
Tennessee and Alabama Scottish Rite Shoe Program
Provides new shoes for need Tennessee and Alabama children
Chattanooga Scottish Rite Bodies
510 Uptain Building
Chattanooga, Tennessee 37411-4031
(615) 855-0175
Birmingham Scottish Rite Bodies
400 Valley Avenue
Birmingham, Alabama 35209-3899
(205) 942-2687
Texas Scottish Rite Hospital for Children
Provides orthopedic, neuralgic, and child development services to children in Texas
Texas Scottish Rite Hospital for Children
2222 Welborn Street
Dallas, Texas 75219-9982
(214) 521-3168
Masons Assisting Children (MAC)
Provides needy homeless children in the school district with clothing and toiletries
Masons Assisting Children
2200 West Mesquite
Las Vegas, Nevada 89106
Scottish Rite Foundation
Operates a clinic for dyslexic and aphasia disorders in children
Scottish Rite Foundation
2200 West Mesquite
Las Vegas, Nevada 89106

---

If you truly believe that Freemasonry/Appendants should not be involved in charitable and humanitarian activities, I suggest that you contact each of the activities on this list, and given them your reasons, and tell them to stop the activities. 

"Mankind was my business" - The Ghost of Jacob Marley, talking to Ebenezer Scrooge.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...Most people do not take me seriously, anyway. And I am not especially interested in being taken seriously...


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


>



That is the truth. I was there, and I personally witnessed the entire ceremonies. Afterwards, I was delighted to shake Brother Dreyfuss' hand.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> That is the truth. I was there, and I personally witnessed the entire ceremonies. Afterwards, I was delighted to shake Brother Dreyfuss' hand.



I did not say it was not true, it is just disheartening to see such a publicity stunt.


----------



## Pete Ramboldt

I have looked through this section for quite some time now and have tryed to think about what I could change to make Free Masonry better. After much thought  I think it boils down to just one thing.

ME!

Brothers, it's not about changing Free Masonry - It's about changing oursevles to live and act by her moral standards. Think about it!


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> I did not say it was not true, it is just disheartening to see such a publicity stunt.



I understand your point. I, personally, am NOT a fan of ODC's. Even a "big shot" should be able to take the Masonic experience like the rest of us. I would, however, keep the door open for exigent circumstances, like a soldier deploying overseas. During WW2, some lodges operated "around the clock", doing degree work on soldiers. 

I am nevertheless delighted, that an actor of Richard Dreyfuss' stature is a Mason. He does not get any publicity from it, and even the fact that he is a Mason, is absent from his Wikipedia biography. I am thrilled that he started the "Dreyfuss Initiative" (It was underway a long time before he was made a Mason, and there is NO connection between the foundation and Masonry).


----------



## cemab4y

Pete Ramboldt said:


> I have looked through this section for quite some time now and have tryed to think about what I could change to make Free Masonry better. After much thought  I think it boils down to just one thing.
> 
> ME!
> 
> Brothers, it's not about changing Free Masonry - It's about changing oursevles to live and act by her moral standards. Think about it!



If you are of the opinion that there is nothing in Freemasonry, that needs changing or updating, then this discussion is not for you. If you wish to improve yourself in Masonry, as we are all charged to do in the EA degree, I wish you well, and I am right there with you. There is no lodge nor any Masonic fellowship where I live, so my Masonic experience here is personal and internet only.


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


>



I am a graduate of Western Kentucky University (class of 1983). The motto of my Alma mater is "Back of the deed was the doer, back of the deed was the Dream". 
My dream is a healthy and vigorous Freemasonry, that can meet the challenges of the 21st century. 

"If you don't have good dreams, then all you have are nightmares". Mickey Rourke, actor/boxer


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> If you do not think that Freemasonry can or should create a charity/foundation, that is your right. Thankfully, most Masons do not agree with you. If you feel that charitable and humanitarian activities are not in the scope of Freemasonry, I suggest you read this list:
> ...
> If you truly believe that Freemasonry/Appendants should not be involved in charitable and humanitarian activities, I suggest that you contact each of the activities on this list, and given them your reasons, and tell them to stop the activities.
> 
> "Mankind was my business" - The Ghost of Jacob Marley, talking to Ebenezer Scrooge.


_<sigh> You miss the point continually.  It's never been about not doing charitable works.  

It's always been about stopping the insanity of further encouraging members toward yet one more undue distraction from their PRIMARY PURPOSES.  

*The Problem: *The organization as a whole does not do the basics for its own members.  To ask members to build organizational structures to support others without making sure that those members have first built structures to support themselves is insanity perpetuated.  

Your "idea" farm is also part of the problem.  You're laying a lot o' eggs there Bro.  You need to sit down and hatch those chicks before you even begin to feed 'em, raise 'em! and put 'em out to stud.  Until your do, the yokes on you.

_


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> _<sigh> You miss the point continually.  It's never been about not doing charitable works.
> 
> It's always been about stopping the insanity of further encouraging members toward yet one more undue distraction from their PRIMARY PURPOSES.
> 
> *The Problem: *The organization as a whole does not do the basics for its own members.  To ask members to build organizational structures to support others without making sure that those members have first built structures to support themselves is insanity perpetuated.
> 
> Your "idea" farm is also part of the problem.  You're laying a lot o' eggs there Bro.  You need to sit down and hatch those chicks before you even begin to feed 'em, raise 'em! and put 'em out to stud.  Until your do, the yokes on you.
> _



I am glad that most Masons are not opposed to our charities. (The huge majority of which are sponsored by the appendant/concordant bodies anyway).

I disagree that the organization as a whole does not do the basics. I have visited lodges in 14 states, WashDC, and 5 foreign countries. The meetings are as basic and boring as anyone could imagine. Open, read minutes, read the sick list, pay the bills, close, go home. This is "basic Masonry",to be sure. 

The whole point of this discussion topic, is to hatch and "massage" ideas. The great thing about 51 Grand Lodges,is that there are 51 "laboratories" ,where ideas can be tried. If found successful, they can be imitated. If found impractical, then they can be discarded. This is why the idea of a national Grand Lodge (which I oppose) is ludicrous. 

If you are opposed to discussing ideas, then this thread is not for you.


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> I am glad that most Masons are not opposed to our charities. (The huge majority of which are sponsored by the appendant/concordant bodies anyway).


It's never been the issue, although you continually make effort to make it one.



cemab4y said:


> I disagree that the organization as a whole does not do the basics. I have visited lodges in 14 states, WashDC, and 5 foreign countries. The meetings are as basic and boring as anyone could imagine. Open, read minutes, read the sick list, pay the bills, close, go home. This is "basic Masonry",to be sure.


That is basic "Freemasonry".  It is far from having anything to do with Masonry.



cemab4y said:


> The whole point of this discussion topic, is to hatch and "massage" ideas.


Oh!  Thanks for pointing this out.  I thought is was merely to share what each poster wanted to change about their organizational experiences; not to drum up ideas to change the organization.


cemab4y said:


> The great thing about 51 Grand Lodges,is that there are 51 "laboratories" ,where ideas can be tried. If found successful, they can be imitated. If found impractical, then they can be discarded. This is why the idea of a national Grand Lodge (which I oppose) is ludicrous.


Well, that and for a whole bunch of other reasons.



cemab4y said:


> If you are opposed to discussing ideas, then this thread is not for you.



Did you want to discuss this idea further or are you dead set on not discussing your opinion on this any further?


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...I am nevertheless delighted, that an actor of Richard Dreyfuss' stature is a Mason.



What does his stature as an actor have to do with the qualifications of becoming a Mason?  Do you believe that being agnostic meets the requirement of having a belief in a Supreme Being?



cemab4y said:


> ...He walked in to the building at 0900am with no Masonic affiliation. He left the building before lunch, a 32d degree SR mason...



So, how can the 3 Craft Degrees be conferred in less then 3 hours?


----------



## cacarter




----------



## coachn

LAMason said:


> What does his stature as an actor have to do with the qualifications of becoming a Mason?  Do you believe that being agnostic meets the requirement of having a belief in a Supreme Being?


1) Nothing, but good God man!  It's RICHARD DREYFUS!!!!
2) Not in my jurisdiction.



LAMason said:


> So, how can the 3 Craft Degrees be conferred in less then 3 hours?


I thought he said he walked out a 32 Degree mason after 3 hours.  Isn't that 32 degrees in 3 hours?


----------



## Ripcord22A

All i.see is cemab4y making suggestions on things.he sees as ways to make meetings and lodges better and the old timers screaming "thats not how we did it in my day!"  hes got some really good ideas. Im a fairly new.mason(about 2yrs now)  and i just affiliated with my second lodge,Army moved me, there r 2lodges here in Santa Fe,NM and i chose Cerrillos #19 over Montezuma 1 because Cerrillos actually has masonic and.non masonic.presentations at at the meetings where Montezuma was all business all the time.  By adding presentations to your meetings u arent changing Masonry.


----------



## HumbleTXMason

Bro Dreyfus was made a mason "at sight"

Here's a link http://scottishrite.org/about/media-publications/journal/article/to-the-soldiers-of-the-light/


----------



## JJones

cemab4y said:


> He walked in to the building at 0900am with no Masonic affiliation. He left the building before lunch, a 32d degree SR mason.



I'll assume that there's some slight exaggeration here.  You couldn't confer all three degrees on anyone in so short a time, let alone any side degrees.



cemab4y said:


> If you are of the opinion that there is nothing in Freemasonry, that needs changing or updating, then this discussion is not for you.



I disagree.  He is a member of these forums, like yourself, and he is welcome to post his thoughts and opinions so long as he remains respectful.

To be frank, the impression I've been getting is that you seem determined that something _has_ to change and if someone doesn't want to drink that Kool-Aide then you don't want them on your thread.  Change for the sake of change isn't progress, usually it's just so someone can have a program with their name slapped on it.



cemab4y said:


> If you do not think that Freemasonry can or should create a charity/foundation, that is your right. Thankfully, most Masons do not agree with you. If you feel that charitable and humanitarian activities are not in the scope of Freemasonry, I suggest you read this list:



I'm an exception then because I agree with him.  While charitable and humanitarian activities _are_ within the scope of Freemasonry, it begins and ends at the individual level.  Freemasonry as an organization is not a charity and it wasn't designed to be one either.  I can paint my dog white with black spots but that doesn't make him a Dalmatian, much like the list provided doesn't change what the craft was created do so (and should still be doing).



coachn said:


> I thought he said he walked out a 32 Degree mason after 3 hours. Isn't that 32 degrees in 3 hours?



More like 10.7 degrees an hour.  Talk about an assembly line!


----------



## MarkR

Richard Dreyfuss has a political agenda.  It is one that some of us would not agree with. How would you propose to teach young people about civics and government service without an ideological bias?  We avoid political discussions because they tend to turn brother against brother.  If Freemasonry were to lend its name to teaching an interpretation of the proper role of government with which I strongly disagree, that would be enough to drive me out of the fraternity.


----------



## Companion Joe

I like like the Dreyfuss Initiative and his general ideas. His political agenda is education and civil behavior. I think it's pretty obvious this country is going to hell in a hurry on both accounts. As a high school teacher, I see it every day. Kids know more about the latest inappropriate posting on social media than they do what's going on in their own communities.

I believe Freemasonry as practiced in early America was pretty much in line with Dreyfuss' ideas. I don't see George Washington, Joseph Warren, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, etc. sitting around lodge meetings trying to find some ancient lost knowledge. They took the knowledge and ideals of Freemasonry and applied them to building better communities, and in turn, a nation. Masonic Lodges were the meeting place, and the ritual was the bond for them to come together. While not directly political in terms on "my candidate" vs. "your candidate" the ripples do fringe on politics.

The goal of every local Masonic Lodge should be to foster discussion between educated and enlightened men on how they can make their communities a better place to live.


----------



## dalinkou

coachn said:


> It's very strange to see that an agnostic was allowed to join the Craft:  http://cnsnews.com/news/article/act...re-s-god-politically-uncivil-guys-are-trouble
> 
> But he is listed as an American Freemason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_Freemasons



His initiation would have been interesting...something like "I don't know if there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster and I don't know if there is none...but hey, I'm in."

Anyway, if you're about attracting a big name, what they think or believe doesn't matter.


----------



## cemab4y

JJones said:


> I'll assume that there's some slight exaggeration here.  You couldn't confer all three degrees on anyone in so short a time, let alone any side degrees.
> 
> -*--See my next post, I hope that we can put the issue to rest.*
> 
> 
> 
> To be frank, the impression I've been getting is that you seem determined that something _has_ to change and if someone doesn't want to drink that Kool-Aide then you don't want them on your thread.  Change for the sake of change isn't progress, usually it's just so someone can have a program with their name slapped on it.
> 
> *---I agree that Change for the sake of change is not progress. Although some people are certainly "glory hogs", and want their imprint on such things, I promise you I am not. It is amazing what can be accomplished when you do not care who gets the credit.
> 
> One of my favorite quotations:
> 
> "I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors. "  Thomas Jefferson, not a Freemason.
> 
> 
> I am with TJ on this one! No sane person would want to inflict all kinds of changes on our Craft, for no reason. But as technology changes, and demographics change, and our membership base shrinks, changes are being inflicted upon us, like it or not. The progress of the human mind, developed the internet. The internet fits our Craft like a hand in glove. But even today, in 2015, there are lodges which absolutely refuse to put up a website. The Grand Lodge of Ohio, had to FORCE every one of their subordinate lodges to post a website, which is something that all lodges should have been doing for years.
> 
> TJ also said that institutions MUST advance to keep pace with the times. AMEN AMEN AMEN! he was right back then, and he is still right.*
> 
> 
> !


----------



## cemab4y

Here is the absolute account of the initiation of Richard Dreyfuss into the Craft Lodge, and Scottish Rite (SJ) Masonry.  I was PERSONALLY THERE, and I witnessed the entire event. This was not told to me by men I respect, nor did I get it off a website. I SAW IT ALL with my own two eyes.

On June 10, 2011, at the Scottish Rite Building  2800 16th St NW WashDC, Academy-Award winning actor Richard Dreyfuss was made a Master Mason, and a 32d SR Mason.

see: http://dcsr.org

I was preparing to leave for an overseas contract, and I was lucky enough to be in town, and I went to the ceremonies.

Mr. Dreyfuss arrived about 0900am, and the crowd roared with applause! There was a prayer, led by a Rabbi, and the EA degree began immediately after. The candidate took the solemn oaths on the VSL (there were several VSL on the altar, including the Talmud, and the Book of Mormon). He was given the instructions of the EA. Then the altar was set for the FC, and the degree was conferred. Then the altar was set for the MM, and the degree was conferred.  Applause after each degree.

Then, the Craft lodge was dismissed, and all who were not SR Masons, withdrew. I showed my current dues card. The room was set for the beautiful SR degrees. The team conferred the 4th (Secret Master) degree. Bro.Dreyfuss took the solemn oath. Then the stage was set up for the 14th degree, and performed. Then the stage was set for the 18th degree, and performed, and then the stage was set for the 32d (Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret), and performed.

By then it was around 1230pm, and the SR degree was concluded. Bro. Dreyfuss gave a short talk about the Dreyfuss Initiative, and the meeting was dismissed.

I personally, shook his hand, and told him how much I enjoyed his performances. I told him I especially enjoyed "Mr. Holland's Opus", He remarked how much he enjoyed working on the film, and how it was such a great opportunity for an actor. I also told him, that we are all symbollically searching for the girl in the white T-Bird, he got a chuckle.

Brother Dreyfuss joined Potomac Lodge #5, WashDC  (see http://potomac5.org ). and the Washington DC Scottish Rite bodies, (see http://dcsr.org/bodies.php )

Keep in mind that was almost four years ago, I cannot be certain if Bro. Dreyfuss is still a member of either this lodge or the WashDC Scottish Rite. He may have transferred to some other lodge or lodges, I simply do not know.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> Mr. Dreyfuss arrived about 0900am..There was a prayer, led by a Rabbi, and the EA degree began immediately after. The candidate took the solemn oaths on the VSL (there were several VSL on the altar, including the Talmud, and the Book of Mormon). He was given the instructions of the EA. Then the altar was set for the FC, and the degree was conferred. Then the altar was set for the MM, and the degree was conferred.  Applause after each degree.









Which account is correct?  Were the degrees performed in full form or an abbreviated form as you indicated in your post today?

In any case, I still do not see why making an agnostic a Mason is a reason to be thrilled and celebrated, but apparently you think it was a great day and that being an agnostic meets the requirement of belief in a Supreme Being.


----------



## coachn

In who does he place his trust?


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> Which account is correct?  Were the degrees performed in full form or an abbreviated form as you indicated in your post today?
> 
> In any case, I still do not see why making an agnostic a Mason is a reason to be thrilled and celebrated, but apparently you think it was a great day and that being an agnostic meets the requirement of belief in a Supreme Being.




------------------------
*The account I posted on this forum, and the account I posted on masonforum.com are essentially the same. Brother Dreyfuss took the EA/FC/MM degrees in due and ancient form, according to the rituals of the Grand Lodge of WashDC. He did not receive the "stairwell" lecture, in the FC degree. The master of Potomac Lodge #5, and the Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of DC were in attendance. I can only assume that everyone was satisfied with the Craft lodge degree conferrals. *

*The point I was trying to make, is that Richard Dreyfuss was definitely made a Mason "at sight", as some people claim.*

*The 4th,14th,18th,and 32d SR degrees were all presented in "abbreviated" form. The degrees were "communicated", and not "conferred". *

*When the Rabbi introduced the candidate, the rabbi made reference to Mr. Dreyfuss' Jewish background. I had no reason to believe that Mr. Dreyfuss was not Jewish, and that he believed in the Deity. Mr. Dreyfus took his oaths on the VSL, so I naturally assumed that he believed in the sacredness of the holy book. *

*I have no way of knowing the faith traditions and beliefs of any man, especially some Hollywood actor. I also assumed that Mr. Dreyfuss was investigated by Potomac Lodge #5, and that the committee was satisfied that he met the conditions for Masonry, and that his subsequent ballot was unanimous. *

*I admit that Richard Dreyfuss is one of my favorite actors. He has been acting since he was a kid, and he is well-esteemed in his profession. I loved his performance in "American Graffiti". I saw "Mr. Hollands Opus", with a teacher, and we wept tears of joy. I admit to being "star struck", by this man. And I was thrilled to be present at his masonic initiation. When I was made a mason, at a small country lodge in Kentucky, I never dreamed that one day, I would be present at the initiation of one of the greatest actors of the century. *

*I have sat in lodge with men who risked being sent to a concentration camp in Nazi-occupied France (at a German-speaking lodge in Paris), and I have sat in lodge with men who risked being sent to Siberia (At a lodge in Moscow, Russia). I consider being present at Brother Dreyfuss initiation to be the high point of my Masonic career. *


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> It's never been the issue, although you continually make effort to make it one.
> 
> *--Some (not all) Masons are opposed to Masons (and the appendant bodies) being involved in charitable/humanitarian activities. I am glad that the wide majority does not see it this way. *
> 
> 
> That is basic "Freemasonry".  It is far from having anything to do with Masonry.
> 
> 
> Oh!  Thanks for pointing this out.  I thought is was merely to share what each poster wanted to change about their organizational experiences; not to drum up ideas to change the organization.
> 
> ===*I must be missing something. This thread is about  *quote what-would-you-like-to-see-changed-in-the-masonic-experience endquote. *I would like to discuss topics related to changing and improving the Masonic "experience", including the appendant/concordant bodies. The thread is definitely about "drumming up" ideas about how to change/improve the organization. Definitely so. We are taking a wide "latitude" in the discussions here, and that is good. *
> 
> Well, that and for a whole bunch of other reasons.
> 
> ==*We are definitely in agreement here. The whole concept of a "Grand Lodge of the USA" is ludicrous. How anyone ever got the idea, that I was in favor of such an absurdity is beyond me. *
> 
> 
> 
> Did you want to discuss this idea further or are you dead set on not discussing your opinion on this any further?



*Let's go ahead and discuss any topic or opinion or idea that we see fit, wide open! *


----------



## cemab4y

Here is a fascinating link:

http://email.nsltr.com/t/ViewEmail/...EF23F30FEDED/871A88DDEF4D9E137F4E5A579FEBB2E9

(DISCLAIMER: I am NOT supporting nor endorsing anything offered in this URL, nor any commercial product whatsoever. This information is presented for educational and discussion purposes ONLY).


----------



## cemab4y

(DISCLAIMER: I am NOT a fan of the New York Times, and I do not necessarily agree with their editorial policies. This link is presented for discussion purposes only) (ditto for the Florida paper as well)

There is definitely a crisis in civics education in the USA. With all of the focus on English and Math skills declining, civics is getting left behind.

Please see:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/education/05civics.html?_r=0

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/government-636474-bell-city.html

PLEASE SEE: Especially the imbedded video!

http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/...crisis-in-civics-notes-from-my-2013-dml-talk/

Then tell me how US High School kids are doing on their "civic literacy"!


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> When the Rabbi introduced the candidate, the rabbi made reference to Mr. Dreyfuss' Jewish background. I had no reason to believe that Mr. Dreyfuss was not Jewish, and that he believed in the Deity. Mr. Dreyfus took his oaths on the VSL, so I naturally assumed that he believed in the sacredness of the holy book.



I understand and accept that you would not have known his beliefs at the time of the ceremonies.  But now faced with the knowledge that Dreyfuss publicly professes to be an agnostic do you believe that an avowed agnostic should be made a Mason?  Do you believe that there is a distinction between agnostic and atheist as it pertains to the requirement for a belief in a Supreme Being?

Also, since you were present what was his response when asked "In whom do you place your trust" in the EA degree, and what VSL did he choose to take his obligation on?

Please give direct answers to the questions posed and refrain from your propensity to resort to circumlocution (hows that for a big word) when answering questions.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> The point I was trying to make, is that Richard Dreyfuss was definitely NOT made a Mason "at sight", as some people claim.



What do consider to be the procedure for "making a Mason at sight"?

Based on Mackey's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry it appears that was in fact what happened:

OCCASIONAL LODGE

A temporary Lodge con-voked by a Grand Master, as for the purpose of making Freemasons, after which the Lodge is dissolved. The phrase was first used by Anderson in the second edition of the Book of Constitutions, and is repeated by subsequent editors. To make a Freemason in an Occasional Lodge is equivalent to making him "at sight." But any Lodge, called temporarily by the Grand Master for a specific purpose and immediately afterward dissolved, is an Occasional Lodge. Its organization as to officers, and its regulations as to ritual, must be the same as in a permanent and properly warranted Lodge (see Sight, Making Freemasons at).

SIGHT, MAKING MASONS AT

The prerogative of the Grand Master to make Freemasons at sight is described as the eighth landmark of the Order. It is a technical term, which may be defined to be the power to initiate, pass, and raise candidates, by the Grand Master, in a Lodge of Emergency, or, as it is called in the Book of Constitutions, an Occasional Lodge, specially convened by him, and consisting of such Master Masons as he may call together for that purpose only; the Lodge ceasing to exist as soon as the initiation, passing, or raising has been accomplished, and the Brethren have been dismissed by the Grand Master.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/mackeys_encyclopedia/s.htm



cemab4y said:


> "stairwell" lecture


I think you mean "stairway" or "staircase".


----------



## coachn

If you want to change the Masonic experience, *then you best focus upon first practicing Masonry* and not getting distracted by having the organization involved in things that are related but not directed toward Masonry's purpose.  The Society as a whole doesn't even begin to do what it should be doing and instead redirects the attention of its members toward things that are "nice" but not its primary purpose.  The presented opportunities for further distraction and the motivation for further distraction are evidence that some members still think the purpose is anything but what members should be focusing upon.

The "basics" aren't even known much less understood.  They are not running meetings or degrees.  They re not minutes or treasury reports. They are not fundraising to compensate for low dues.  They are not improving attendance or the "freemasonic" experience, not to be confused with the "Masonic" experience.

None of these things are the basics of Masonry.  None of these things contribute to making a good man better.  The society as a whole has no clue how to do this, yet they fight vehemently to preserve codes that are the very thing that they need to pay attention to and follow to better the existing members.

Go ahead and throw ideas at the wall or the fan or in the air.  Until those ideas have anything to do with bettering the members of the organization directly, and making them into Builders, you're distracting them from Masonry's purpose.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> "Lead, follow. or get out of the way". -Laurence J. Peter


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> I understand and accept that you would not have known his beliefs at the time of the ceremonies.  But now faced with the knowledge that Dreyfuss publicly professes to be an agnostic do you believe that an avowed agnostic should be made a Mason?  Do you believe that there is a distinction between agnostic and atheist as it pertains to the requirement for a belief in a Supreme Being?
> 
> Also, since you were present what was his response when asked "In whom do you place your trust" in the EA degree, and what VSL did he choose to take his obligation on?
> 
> Please give direct answers to the questions posed and refrain from your propensity to resort to circumlocution (hows that for a big word) when answering questions.



===========================
*(DISCLAIMER: I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of Potomac Lodge #5 (Washington DC), nor any lodge under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of Washington DC. I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the Washington DC Scottish Rite bodies. I am NOT an expert on the rules and regulations of any Masonic (or appendant) bodies in Washington DC). 

I am not an expert on the personal religious beliefs of any man, other than myself. In answer to your question, do I believe that an atheist and/or agnostic person should be made a Mason? The answer is a simple "no". I personally, do NOT REPEAT NOT believe that atheists/agnostics have a place in our Craft. 

In answer to your second question, do I believe that there is a distinction between an atheist and agnostic person, pertaining to the requirement. The answer here is "no". Neither an atheist nor an agnostic can answer (honestly) to the question, and meet the requirements for admission to the Craft. There IS a distinction between an atheist and an agnostic. 

Keep in mind, that this was 4 years ago, and I admit that I am "star-struck" by this academy-award winning actor. I believe that when asked in whom do you place your trust, that he answered "In God". I could be wrong. I am not trying to evade, just trying to answer truthfully. (Suggestion, you can possibly obtain the minutes of the meeting, and determine his answer from the official record) 

As to which VSL he actually placed his hands on, I simply do not have a clue. I was out in the audience some distance away. After the MM degree was concluded, and the meeting took a break to set up for the SR degrees, I strolled up on stage, to get a closer look at the altar. I remember seeing the Talmud, the Holy Qu'Ran, and the Book of Mormon. There were some other books there as well, but I do not remember what they were. 

I must say, that I am satisfied that Brother Dreyfuss completed the petitioning process successfully, at least according to the regulations of Potomac Lodge #5, and the Grand Lodge of WashDC. He must have petitioned, and been investigated, and then balloted on properly. As I stated, I am not an expert on the regulations of the GL of DC.*


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> What do consider to be the procedure for "making a Mason at sight"?
> 
> *----I have no direct knowledge of the procedure for making a man a Mason "At sight". I have read about this on the internet, and I admit that I am curious. I have read that Danny Thomas and Ronald Reagan (and of course, other men) have been made a Mason "at sight". I understand that some Grand Lodges permit the Grand Master to invoke this. BUT- I am certainly no expert, and I know next to nothing about it. *
> 
> Based on Mackey's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry it appears that was in fact what happened:
> 
> OCCASIONAL LODGE
> 
> A temporary Lodge con-voked by a Grand Master, as for the purpose of making Freemasons, after which the Lodge is dissolved. The phrase was first used by Anderson in the second edition of the Book of Constitutions, and is repeated by subsequent editors. To make a Freemason in an Occasional Lodge is equivalent to making him "at sight." But any Lodge, called temporarily by the Grand Master for a specific purpose and immediately afterward dissolved, is an Occasional Lodge. Its organization as to officers, and its regulations as to ritual, must be the same as in a permanent and properly warranted Lodge (see Sight, Making Freemasons at).
> 
> SIGHT, MAKING MASONS AT
> 
> The prerogative of the Grand Master to make Freemasons at sight is described as the eighth landmark of the Order. It is a technical term, which may be defined to be the power to initiate, pass, and raise candidates, by the Grand Master, in a Lodge of Emergency, or, as it is called in the Book of Constitutions, an Occasional Lodge, specially convened by him, and consisting of such Master Masons as he may call together for that purpose only; the Lodge ceasing to exist as soon as the initiation, passing, or raising has been accomplished, and the Brethren have been dismissed by the Grand Master.
> 
> http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/mackeys_encyclopedia/s.htm
> 
> 
> I think you mean "stairway" or "staircase".



*--Here again, I was personally present when Brother Dreyfuss took the EA/FC/MM degrees. The Grand Lodge of DC (Here again, I am NOT an expert), sometimes permits its subordinate lodges to conduct a "one-day class". This is what happened in the Dreyfuss case (how is that for an irony!). Even though I am NOT an expert, It is inaccurate to claim that Richard Dreyfuss was made a mason "at sight". He observed the degree instructions, and took the solemn oaths of all three degrees. It is correct to say that he took the degrees in a "one-day class". 

And: In my lodge in  Kentucky that lecture is called the "Stairwell Lecture", Other Grand Lodges and other lodges in KY may use "stairway/staircase". Brother Dreyfuss, definitely did NOT receive this lecture when he took the FC degree. *


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> If you want to change the Masonic experience, *then you best focus upon first practicing Masonry* and not getting distracted by having the organization involved in things that are related but not directed toward Masonry's purpose.
> 
> ---*I have little interest in changing the Masonic (and appendant bodies) experience. This may sound strange, but it is a fact. I would like very much to see more use of modern technology. I would like to see more daylight lodges, to accommodate our aging population and shift workers. I would like to see more care and support for our Masonic widows.
> 
> This discussion is about what YOU would like to see changed. (I keep cutting and pasting the title of the thread). If you are 1000% satisfied that every thing in all of our Craft and the appendant bodies is absolutely fine and nothing needs to be changed or modernized, then this discussion is NOT for you. Most Masons that I have met in my 33 years in the Craft, are of this category. ALL is fine, there are NO problems, EVERYTHING is "peachy-keen and hunky-dory".
> 
> I am out in the Kuwaiti desert. There are no lodges here, and I have only met one other Mason, since I have been in country. It is virtually impossible to practice any Masonry here, so there is no point in telling me to do the impossible. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Society as a whole doesn't even begin to do what it should be doing and instead redirects the attention of its members toward things that are "nice" but not its primary purpose.
> 
> *--Since when is Masonry a "society"? I have never found it to be so. What are these things that members are being "redirected" towards? What do think should be its "primary purpose"? *
> 
> 
> The presented opportunities for further distraction and the motivation for further distraction are evidence that some members still think the purpose is anything but what members should be focusing upon.
> 
> *--Fill us in. If you think that Masonry is not focusing on the proper "targets", then where should we "aim". It sounds to me, like you are more interested in changing the Masonic experience, than you admit to. *
> 
> The "basics" aren't even known much less understood.  They are not running meetings or degrees.  They re not minutes or treasury reports. They are not fundraising to compensate for low dues.  They are not improving attendance or the "freemasonic" experience, not to be confused with the "Masonic" experience.
> 
> 
> --*OK! Then what? How would you convey these "basics", without making any changes? *
> 
> 
> None of these things are the basics of Masonry.  None of these things contribute to making a good man better.  The society as a whole has no clue how to do this, yet they fight vehemently to preserve codes that are the very thing that they need to pay attention to and follow to better the existing members.
> *
> --Most masons fight to preserve the "status quo". More effort is expended on stopping any new idea, or modernizing our administrative procedures, than are spent on any other endeavour. *
> 
> Go ahead and throw ideas at the wall or the fan or in the air.  Until those ideas have anything to do with bettering the members of the organization directly, and making them into Builders, you're distracting them from Masonry's purpose.



*
--I am delighted to discuss new ideas and projects. The Shrine was a social club for over 50 years, before someone suggested that a hospital needed to be opened in Shreveport, Louisiana in 1922. I am sure that the hospital program "distracted" from the purposes of the Shrine. I am also certain that the thousands of children who have been treated in the hospitals are grateful for this distraction.

In Kentucky, there was a Masonic orphan's home. The Grand Lodge determined that the need could be better served in other venues, so the orphan home program was discontinued. 

As we discussed previously, there are over 100 appendant/concordant bodies. (If you count the clandestine and international organizations). The wide majority of Masonically-affiliated charitable activities occur in the appendant/concordant bodies. (IMHO- This is by far the best way to administer and promote these programs). *


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...And: In Kentucky that lecture is called the "Stairwell Lecture"...








Maybe he is wrong.


----------



## cemab4y

I do not believe this man is wrong. He is using different titles for the same lecture.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> do I believe that an atheist and/or agnostic person should be made a Mason? The answer is a simple "no".





cemab4y said:


> I personally, do believe that atheists/agnostics have a place in our Craft.


To me those statements appear contradictory.  What place do you believe that atheists/agnostics have in our Craft?



cemab4y said:


> I believe that there is a distinction between an atheist and agnostic person, pertaining to the requirement. The answer here is "yes".



Can you explain what that distinction is?


----------



## cemab4y

MY MISTAKE! I went back and changed my response. I DO NOT REPEAT NOT BELIEVE THAT ATHEISTS/AGNOSTICS HAVE A PLACE IN OUR CRAFT.


----------



## cemab4y

Here it is from Wikipedia:

*Agnosticism* is the view that the truth values of certain claims – especially metaphysical and religious claims such as whether or not God, the divine or the supernatural exist – are unknown and perhaps unknowable.[1][2][3] In the popular sense of the term, an "agnostic", according to the philosopher William L. Rowe, is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of God, while a theist believes that God does exist and an atheist believes that God does not exist.[2] Agnosticism is a doctrine or set of tenets[4] rather than a religion as such.

Thomas Henry Huxley, an English biologist, coined the word "agnostic" in 1869. Earlier thinkers, however, had written works that promoted agnostic points of view, such as Sanjaya Belatthaputta, a 5th-century BCE Indian philosopher who expressed agnosticism about any afterlife;[5][6][7] and Protagoras, a 5th-century BCE Greek philosopher who expressed agnosticism about "the gods".[8] The Nasadiya Sukta in the Rigveda is agnostic about the origin of the universe.[9][10][11]

Since Huxley coined the term, many other thinkers have written extensively about agnosticism.


*Atheism* is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist.[4][5][6][7] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[8][9] which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.[9][10][11]

The term "atheism" originated from the Greek ἄθεος (_atheos_), meaning "without god(s)", used as a pejorative term applied to those thought to reject the gods worshiped by the larger society.[12] With the spread of freethought, skeptical inquiry, and subsequent increase in criticism of religion, application of the term narrowed in scope. The first individuals to identify themselves using the word "atheist" lived in the 18th century.[13] Some ancient and modern religions are referred to as atheistic, as they either have no concepts of deities or deny a creator deity, yet still revere other god-like entities.

Arguments for atheism range from the philosophical to social and historical approaches. Rationales for not believing in any supernatural deity include the lack of empirical evidence;[14][15] the problem of evil; the argument from inconsistent revelations; the rejection of concepts which cannot be falsified; and the argument from nonbelief.[14][16] Although some atheists have adopted secular philosophies,[17][18] there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.[19] Many atheists hold that atheism is a more parsimonious worldview than theism and therefore that the burden of proof lies not on the atheist to disprove the existence of God but on the theist to provide a rationale for theism.[20]

Since conceptions of atheism vary, accurate estimations of current numbers of atheists are difficult.[21] Several comprehensive global polls on the subject have been conducted by Gallup International: their 2015 poll featured over 64,000 respondents and indicated that 11% were "convinced atheists" whereas an earlier 2012 poll found that 13% of respondents were "convinced atheists."[22][23] An older survey by the BBC, in 2004, recorded atheists as comprising 8% of the world's population.[24] Other older estimates have indicated that atheists comprise 2% of the world's population, while the irreligious add a further 12%.[25] According to other studies, rates of atheism are among the highest in Western nations, again to varying degrees: the United States, for example, returned 4%,[26] while Canada returned 28%.[27] The figures for a 2010 Eurobarometer survey in the European Union (EU), reported that 20% of the EU population claimed not to believe in "any sort of spirit, God or life force".[28]


----------



## LAMason

You said:


cemab4y said:


> I DO NOT REPEAT NOT BELIEVE THAT ATHEISTS/AGNOSTICS HAVE A PLACE IN OUR CRAFT.



In January 2011 Richard Dreyfuss publicly said:
“But I’m an agnostic,” Dreyfuss added. “I’m willing to be surprised, but I’m an agnostic. But if there’s a God and he’s morally involved in our affairs, those guys are in trouble.” http://cnsnews.com/news/article/act...re-s-god-politically-uncivil-guys-are-trouble

In June 2011 you were present at the meeting where he was made a Mason.

Now knowing that he publicly professes to be an agnostic, do you still say:


cemab4y said:


> I consider being present at Brother Dreyfuss initiation to be the high point of my Masonic career.


----------



## cemab4y

The answer is a definite "Yes"! I consider being present at his initiation/passing/raising, to be the high point of my Masonic career.  When I was there, I had no reason to believe that he did not meet the requirements for the Craft. After all, Potomac lodge investigated him, and he was unanimously voted in. The Grand Master of Masons in Washington DC was also present. 

I am only speculating, but maybe Brother Dreyfuss felt differently on the day of his initiation. Maybe he has decided to modify his religious views. I have no way of knowing. 

Please give this a rest. If you wish to inquire about the personal religious views of this man, just ask him yourself, and don't ask me. 

C.S. Lewis was a "devout" atheist, then he modified his views, and wrote "Mere Christianity" (and other books).

I will say, that if any man is a member of the Craft, he decides to abandon belief in the Deity, then he should consider resigning the Craft. If a man is in Masonry, and he ceases to meet any of the requirements, then he should resign, because he is in the Craft under "false pretenses".


----------



## LAMason

I do not need a Wikipedia course on the difference between agnosticism and atheism, I am fully aware of the difference.

My question was:


LAMason said:


> Do you believe that there is a distinction between agnostic and atheist as it pertains to the requirement for a belief in a Supreme Being?



You responded:


cemab4y said:


> I believe that there is a distinction between an atheist and agnostic person, pertaining to the requirement. The answer here is "yes".



I asked:


LAMason said:


> Can you explain what that distinction is?



You replied with the Wikipedia citation.

So I will clarify, In my opinion Freemasonry requires that a man reply with an unequivocal affirmative response to the question:  Do you believe in a Supreme Being? Neither an agnostic or atheist can do that, so what do you see as the distinction between them in answering that question?


----------



## cemab4y

I believe your conception parallels mine.  Since neither can answer this question, in the affirmative (honestly), then neither an atheist, nor an agnostic has any place in our Craft. 

I really see no "distinction" in the traditional sense, pertaining to the requirement. My response is somewhat unclear. 

There IS a distinction between an atheist and an agnostic. With respect to whether a man who holds either of these beliefs (or non-beliefs, if you wish), in answering and meeting the requirements to be a Freemason, there really is no "distinction". 

My bad.


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑
> If you want to change the Masonic experience, _then you best focus upon first practicing Masonry_ and not getting distracted by having the organization involved in things that are related but not directed toward Masonry's purpose.
> 
> * ---I have little interest in changing the Masonic (and appendant bodies) experience.*


Then why create a thread asking for Brothers to share on that very thing?  Your posts are very confused.


cemab4y said:


> This may sound strange, but it is a fact.


MAY?!?!?!


cemab4y said:


> I would like very much to see more use of modern technology. I would like to see more daylight lodges, to accommodate our aging population and shift workers. I would like to see more care and support for our Masonic widows.


And none of this will *change* the masonic experience you have no interest changing?  Very confused indeed!  If this would not CHANGE the EXPERIENCE, why bring it up at all?  It's off topic according to you.


cemab4y said:


> ... I am out in the Kuwaiti desert. There are no lodges here, and I have only met one other Mason, since I have been in country. It is virtually impossible to practice any Masonry here, so there is no point in telling me to do the impossible.


So, you are of the opinion that one MUST have a Lodge to practice Masonry then?  That sounds like Freemasonry not Masonry.



cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑  The Society as a whole doesn't even begin to do what it should be doing and instead redirects the attention of its members toward things that are "nice" but not its primary purpose.
> 
> --Since when is Masonry a "society"?


Did I ever say that?


cemab4y said:


> I have never found it to be so.


Me Too!


cemab4y said:


> What are these things that members are being "redirected" towards?


Things having nothing to do with the business of the lodge.


cemab4y said:


> What do think should be its "primary purpose"?


The Primary Purpose is: Making (as in "initiating") Masons by putting them through plays called "rituals".
What it should be: Cultivating Members toward Mastery.


cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑  The presented opportunities for further distraction and the motivation for further distraction are evidence that some members still think the purpose is anything but what members should be focusing upon.
> 
> --Fill us in. If you think that Masonry is not focusing on the proper "targets", then where should we "aim". It sounds to me, like you are more interested in changing the Masonic experience, than you admit to.


The aim is as stated previously.  There is nothing more to it, unless you wish to add things that distract men from this activity.


cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑
> The "basics" aren't even known much less understood. They are not running meetings or degrees. They re not minutes or treasury reports. They are not fundraising to compensate for low dues. They are not improving attendance or the "freemasonic" experience, not to be confused with the "Masonic" experience.
> 
> --OK! Then what? How would you convey these "basics", without making any changes?


Great questions.  I already have done so and have made absolutely no changes in the organization whatsoever.  If you are interested, follow the links in my signature to see what I have conveyed.



cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑
> None of these things are the basics of Masonry. None of these things contribute to making a good man better. The society as a whole has no clue how to do this, yet they fight vehemently to preserve codes that are the very thing that they need to pay attention to and follow to better the existing members.
> 
> --Most masons fight to preserve the "status quo". More effort is expended on stopping any new idea, or modernizing our administrative procedures, than are spent on any other endeavour.



Yup.  Business as usual for sure.



cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑
> Go ahead and throw ideas at the wall or the fan or in the air. Until those ideas have anything to do with bettering the members of the organization directly, and making them into Builders, you're distracting them from Masonry's purpose.
> --I am delighted to discuss new ideas and projects. The Shrine was a social club for over 50 years, before someone suggested that a hospital needed to be opened in Shreveport, Louisiana in 1922. I am sure that the hospital program "distracted" from the purposes of the Shrine. I am also certain that the thousands of children who have been treated in the hospitals are grateful for this distraction.
> 
> In Kentucky, there was a Masonic orphan's home. The Grand Lodge determined that the need could be better served in other venues, so the orphan home program was discontinued.
> 
> As we discussed previously, there are over 100 appendant/concordant bodies. (If you count the clandestine and international organizations). The wide majority of Masonically-affiliated charitable activities occur in the appendant/concordant bodies. (IMHO- This is by far the best way to administer and promote these programs).


All of which can and should be done outside of the Freemasonic Organization so that they can focus on their primary purpose - Initiating members - with some possible hope that one day they shall also apply themselves toward cultivating actual Mastery.


----------



## pointwithinacircle2

LAMason said:


> So I will clarify, In my opinion Freemasonry requires that a man reply with an unequivocal affirmative response to the question:  Do you believe in a Supreme Being? Neither an agnostic or atheist can do that, so what do you see as the distinction between them in answering that question?


I have taken the liberty of pulling this idea out and starting a new thread.  I hope that everyone who has shared on this topic will take a look at it.

http://myfreemasonry.com/threads/why-does-freemasonry-require-a-belief-in-god.25316/


----------



## cemab4y

coachn said:


> Then why create a thread asking for Brothers to share on that very thing?  Your posts are very confused.
> 
> *--Read the title of this thread carefully. The operative word is YOU Y-O-U. I am interested in finding out what other Masons would like to see changed. I know that none of my ideas are ever going to see reality, Masons do not believe in change. This thread is for discussion purposes only. All of my ideas are "pipe dreams", even "crack pipe dreams". ALL are fantasy, none will see reality. Masonry will not change. *
> 
> MAY?!?!?!
> 
> And none of this will *change* the masonic experience you have no interest changing?  Very confused indeed!  If this would not CHANGE the EXPERIENCE, why bring it up at all?  It's off topic according to you.
> 
> --*See the above. *
> 
> So, you are of the opinion that one MUST have a Lodge to practice Masonry then?  That sounds like Freemasonry not Masonry.
> 
> --*I have found it easier to practice masonry in a group setting. Either in a lodge or in a "square and compass" club. *
> 
> 
> Did I ever say that?
> 
> Me Too!
> 
> Things having nothing to do with the business of the lodge.
> 
> The Primary Purpose is: Making (as in "initiating") Masons by putting them through plays called "rituals".
> What it should be: Cultivating Members toward Mastery.
> 
> The aim is as stated previously.  There is nothing more to it, unless you wish to add things that distract men from this activity.
> 
> Great questions.  I already have done so and have made absolutely no changes in the organization whatsoever.  If you are interested, follow the links in my signature to see what I have conveyed.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup.  Business as usual for sure.
> 
> 
> All of which can and should be done outside of the Freemasonic Organization so that they can focus on their primary purpose - Initiating members - with some possible hope that one day they shall also apply themselves toward cultivating actual Mastery.


*

---If you think that the primary purpose of Freemasonry is to initiate new members, then we are failing miserably. See the membership statistics at

www.msana.com

Masonry is LOSING members. (Not all Masons believe this, you should see the hate mail I get!) One man wrote me ,complaining about the "flood gates being open". I answered him, saying that the flood gates are indeed open, just that the membership is flooding OUT!*


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑
> Then why create a thread asking for Brothers to share on that very thing? Your posts are very confused.
> 
> *--Read the title of this thread carefully. *


I have, repeatedly.  You seem to be contributing quite a few ideas all targeting change.
*


cemab4y said:



			Masons do not believe in change.
		
Click to expand...

*
Perhaps the Freemasons you hang with.  That has not been the case with the Brothers I hang with.
*


cemab4y said:



			This thread is for discussion purposes only. All of my ideas are "pipe dreams", even "crack pipe dreams".
		
Click to expand...

*Yup.  I concur.
*


cemab4y said:



			ALL are fantasy, none will see reality. Masonry will not change.
		
Click to expand...

*Masonry doesn't have to.  It is designed to change members, not itself.


cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑ So, you are of the opinion that one MUST have a Lodge to practice Masonry then? That sounds like Freemasonry not Masonry.
> 
> --*I have found it easier to practice masonry in a group setting. Either in a lodge or in a "square and compass" club. *


To each his own then. You have not addressed the question however.


cemab4y said:


> coachn said: ↑ The Primary Purpose is: Making (as in "initiating") Masons by putting them through plays called "rituals".
> What it should be: Cultivating Members toward Mastery.
> The aim is as stated previously. There is nothing more to it, unless you wish to add things that distract men from this activity.
> Great questions. I already have done so and have made absolutely no changes in the organization whatsoever. If you are interested, follow the links in my signature to see what I have conveyed.
> Yup. Business as usual for sure.
> All of which can and should be done outside of the Freemasonic Organization so that they can focus on their primary purpose - Initiating members - with some possible hope that one day they shall also apply themselves toward cultivating actual Mastery.
> *---If you think that the primary purpose of Freemasonry is to initiate new members, then we are failing miserably. *


You have failed to comprehend what I have written.  There is the purpose that is currently being served, which is what you immediately grabbed hold of.  Then there is the purpose that you asked me about having to do with what I thought is should be.  Your response shows that you did not read and understand what I wrote.  Which makes me wonder if you have studied any of the trivium.

The organization is not failing in its current purpose.  It is doing exactly what it is designed to do.  It could do so much more to cultivate Masterful members though and that is where it fails.
*


cemab4y said:



			Masonry is LOSING members.
		
Click to expand...

*It is only Freemasonry that is losing members.  Masonry continually reaps this benefit when its members realize the society is not practicing what it preaches and go off on their own to seek these ends outside the organization.
*


cemab4y said:



			(Not all Masons believe this, you should see the hate mail I get!)
		
Click to expand...

*I fail to see how such comments would ever be the focus of any of your hate mail. 
*


cemab4y said:



			One man wrote me ,complaining about the "flood gates being open". I answered him, saying that the flood gates are indeed open, just that the membership is flooding OUT!
		
Click to expand...

*<snicker> Great analogy.


----------



## RyanC

If I am not mistaken the one day class is the same as making a Mason on Sight, as you need a special dispensation from the Grand Master to have a one day class. Please correct me if I am wrong in this.


----------



## cemab4y

RyanC said:


> If I am not mistaken the one day class is the same as making a Mason on Sight, as you need a special dispensation from the Grand Master to have a one day class. Please correct me if I am wrong in this.



(Repeating: I am NOT an expert on the laws, rules, and regulations of the Grand Lodge of Washington DC)

Some (not all) grand Lodges, permit the Grand Master, to make a man a Mason "at sight". . I read that Danny Thomas and Ronald Reagan, were made Masons in this manner (I have no direct knowledge of this, and I have no documentation).

General Douglas MacArthur was definitely made a Mason 'at sight'. See:

http://watch.pair.com/macarthur-6-freemasonry.html

A "one-day class", is when ALL of the craft degrees are performed in one day. The candidate receives the EA,FC,and MM in one sitting. You go to the lodge at 0600 on a Saturday morning, and the degrees are performed one after the other. By lunchtime you are a Master Mason. My USA residence is in Virginia. The Grand Lodge of Virginia permits each district to hold one (1) "one-day class" per year, at the discretion of the Deputy District Grand Master. Not all districts will hold a "ODC" in a given year.

Obviously, the regulations vary from Grand Lodge to Grand Lodge. Not all GLs permit ODCs. Some Masons call a man who has completed a ODC a "McMason".

There is a difference between a ODC and making a man a Mason "at sight".

Hope that clarifies.


----------



## coachn

*I: What Makes (Initiates) you a Mason?
R: My Obligation!*​
Whether ODC or Mason At Sight, the Obligation is STILL required or the "Making" is null and void. Making (Initiating and Accepting are all synonymous terms!) a Mason "At Sight" means performing an Initiation of a person with an impromptu Degree ceremony. _*The "at sight" refers to the GMs ability to convene "Occasional" Lodges for the purposes of Making (as in "Initiating") without the usual required scheduling (charters or warrants); that is his prerogative.  However:*_

1) The minimal required number of officers is still required to proceed.
2) An affirmative vote of the members present is still required to proceed.
3) The Initiation Obligations are still required for the "Making" to be binding.​
Any uninformed GM who makes effort to exercise this "Making a Mason at Sight" prerogative without these requirements (and possibly others) has violated the intent and administration of the "at sight" landmark.

ODCs are _*scheduled*_ and hence do not qualify as *"at sight" events.

(source: http://www.masonicdictionary.com/sight.html)
*


----------



## LAMason

http://www.dcgrandlodge.org/uploads/6/9/5/4/6954862/voice2011-vol28no2-final.pdf


----------



## cemab4y

The whole point of this discussion topic, is to hatch and "massage" ideas.
Q:
Oh! Thanks for pointing this out. I thought is was merely to share what each poster wanted to change about their organizational experiences; not to drum up ideas to change the organization. End Q. 

Delighted to help! Most people pick up on this concept right away. 

I have been a Mason for 33 years, and I have not been able to change anything in all this time. The only thing I ever convinced my home lodge to do was to buy a copy of "101 ways to improve your lodge". They ignored all of the ideas in the text. 

Masonry is not going to see any major changes, not it the organizational structure, and not in the administrative procedures. If you could just see the fury which Masons employ to fight change, you would be impressed.


----------



## Jason A. Mitchell

cemab4y said:


> Masonry is not going to see any major changes, not it the organizational structure, and not in the administrative procedures. If you could just see the fury which Masons employ to fight change, you would be impressed.



That is a jurisdictional limitation. Other Jurisdictions have made significant changes both at the Grand and Local level.


----------



## cemab4y

If your lodge/Grand Lodge is making progress to deal with the 21st century, I applaud you. Please post some of the progress here, I am very interested!


----------



## cemab4y

Zack said:


> You left out all your efforts to establish a Masonic "employment bureau" and what about your efforts to get Masonic license plates and your advocacy for a
> "national" GL.
> If I was as discontented with Masonry as you appear to be, I would resign.



I have left out many of my efforts over the past 33 years that I have been a Mason. To be more accurate, I have done some research to re-establish a Masonic Employment Bureau in Virginia. Since most Masons are loath to make any changes and to bring in anything new, I have often suggested bringing back some activity which Masonry did in the past. At least, this way, I do not have to hear "We never did it that way before".

Masonic Employment Bureaus are one of our splendid traditions. During the Great Depression of the1930's, Many (not all) of the Grand Lodges/Lodges in the USA assisted the brothers in locating employment. The result was that the overall unemployment rate for Masons was lower than for the remainder of the public. (Don't ask for documentation, I do not have it).

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints (The Mormons) operate a national network of employment bureaus, to assist their membership (AND ANYONE ELSE) in seeking employment. Classes are offered in resume preparation, and how to seek work on the internet,etc. You can participate in practice interviews, which are videotaped and then you get advice. 

I believe that we could emulate the process which the Mormons use, and assist our membership, and dependents AND ANYONE ELSE, who needs employment. 

The government operated employment agencies are just not cutting it, in assisting people in locating work. 

For the record, I have NEVER advocated the creation of a national Grand Lodge, no way, never. 

I am NOT discontented with Masonry. I am disappointed with the direction that the Craft is taking both in my lodge, my Grand Lodge, and in the USA as a whole. I gave up a long time ago, in trying to initiate any substantive changes, but I enjoy discussing the topic, and "massaging" some ideas. 

(If you scan through this thread, you will see where I suggested to my state senator to obtain a Masonic license plate for Kentucky. )


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> The point I was trying to make, is that Richard Dreyfuss was definitely made a Mason "at sight", as some people claim.



You have edited your post by removing "NOT".

Here is what your post said before you edited it:

cemab4y said: ↑
The point I was trying to make, is that Richard Dreyfuss was definitely NOT made a Mason "at sight", as some people claim.

Why not just admit that you were wrong.  By editing your post in the way that you did, it makes you appear deceitful.


----------



## Jason A. Mitchell

cemab4y said:


> If your lodge/Grand Lodge is making progress to deal with the 21st century, I applaud you. Please post some of the progress here, I am very interested!



This isn't a 21st century problem. It's a human problem. It's an organizational leadership problem. That's the first thing to overcome - perception.


----------



## cemab4y

You are correct, I did go back and edit the post. My original post was correct, to the best of my knowledge at the time. I was present during the entire ceremony, and no one ever used the words "at sight" at the time. When I read the magazine article, I said "OOPS!", so I went back and made the correction. 

I believe that posting incorrect information makes me look deceitful, but changing the post to present correct information, is the proper course of action.

Thanks for pointing this out to me.


----------



## coachn

cemab4y said:


> ...Most people pick up on this concept right away...


Yup.  I know what you mean.  Most people pick a Thread Topic that more closely reflects the true intent of the thread.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> You are correct, I did go back and edit the post. My original post was correct, to the best of my knowledge at the time. I was present during the entire ceremony, and no one ever used the words "at sight" at the time. When I read the magazine article, I said "OOPS!", so I went back and made the correction.
> 
> I believe that posting incorrect information makes me look deceitful, but changing the post to present correct information, is the proper course of action.
> 
> Thanks for pointing this out to me.



Well, to correct the post you should have also deleted "The point I was trying to make", because in fact you had been trying to make the opposite point, that he was not made a mason at sight.


----------



## LAMason

cemab4y said:


> ...Masonry is not going to see any major changes...



I am not sure if your are limiting "changes" to be creating a charity for every societal ill and the other things that you bloviate about, but many Grand Lodges have instituted some significant changes largely in an attempt to stem the tide of declining numbers. The Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania made the following changes:

Selective invitations allowed
Three black balls now required to reject a candidate, instead of one
A Masonic "congress" meeting in February for all Masonic groups, to seek ways to work together statewide
One day class in 13 locations next October 30th
District ritual teams may confer degrees on multiple candidates
Any 60+ year old Mason who successfully recommends two new members under 30 are granted lifetime dues remission
Dues may now be paid via credit or debit card 
A proficiency pin program certified by schools of instruction 
Shortened versions of opening and closings for meetings are now allowed
Suspensions and expulsions to be largely handled at the local lodge level, and not by the Grand Master
Relaxation of the traditional formal dress code in meetings
Per capita increase of 50¢ to support youth groups
Greater expansion of community and charity service, including an individual commitment by every single Pennsylvania Freemason to perform a weekly random act of kindness 
Simplified secretary/treasurer software to help each lodge with its annual audit 
A written ritual will now be made available for study for the first time in Pennsylvania history
http://www.lodge515.org/masonic-renaissance

Other Grand Lodges have lowered the age to petition to 18 and as you have pointed out instituted one day classes.  My own Grand Lodge (Louisiana), now has ciphers for the Catechisms and Rituals, has a "fast track" proficiency, now only requires 5 members instead of 7 to conduct business.

It doesn't matter if I agree with any or all of the changes being made, some of them are rather significant in my opinion.



cemab4y said:


> One man wrote me ,complaining about the "flood gates being open". I answered him, saying that the flood gates are indeed open, just that the membership is flooding OUT!



Perhaps he was referring to what he perceives to be relaxing of standards in requirements for accepting and advancing candidates, rather than raw numbers.


----------



## Ripcord22A

You guys are not.being.very "MASONIC" in your conversations here.  You sound.like a couple of.old.ladys arguing over whos caserole is better.  Act like the men and masons you are and agree to.disagree!....i recomend that someone delete this thread


----------



## HumbleTXMason

@LAMason 

Thanks for posting the article that clearly states Bro. Dreyfus was made a mason "at sight" and for pointing out that cemab4y had changed his position, since I usually don't go back and re-read all posts when new information is posted. I'd posted on top of p.25 about the "at sight" and felt like a fool when an eye-witness to the event vehemently indicated that wasn't the case. 

Good to be clear on the "at sight" been more than a "hey you... you're a mason now" and that the degrees are conferred on the candidate, etc.


----------



## Morris

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> You guys are not.being.very "MASONIC" in your conversations here.  You sound.like a couple of.old.ladys arguing over whos caserole is better.  Act like the men and masons you are and agree to.disagree!....i recomend that someone delete this thread



My grandma would use the term fuddy-duddy. She loved that word


----------



## cemab4y

HumbleTXMason said:


> @LAMason
> 
> Thanks for posting the article that clearly states Bro. Dreyfus was made a mason "at sight" and for pointing out that cemab4y had changed his position, since I usually don't go back and re-read all posts when new information is posted. I'd posted on top of p.25 about the "at sight" and felt like a fool when an eye-witness to the event vehemently indicated that wasn't the case.
> 
> Good to be clear on the "at sight" been more than a "hey you... you're a mason now" and that the degrees are conferred on the candidate, etc.



*--I made the same mistake!  I saw Mr. Dreyfuss take the degrees. I have heard for many years about this "at sight" business, and have never witnessed one. Then, when I was actually present at one (at sight), and no one ever used that term, I just assumed that since the man was made a Mason in one day, that it was a "one-day class". It turns out, that I was present at an "at sight" event, and just never knew it! 

I got a real chuckle when I read, that Bro. Dreyfuss had been interested in Masonry for over ten years, before he actually made application. I have been to California many times, and there are lots of lodges out there, he could have just asked for a petition.*


----------



## cemab4y

LAMason said:


> I am not sure if your are limiting "changes" to be creating a charity for every societal ill and the other things that you bloviate about, but many Grand Lodges have instituted some significant changes largely in an attempt to stem the tide of declining numbers. The Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania made the following changes:
> 
> Selective invitations allowed
> Three black balls now required to reject a candidate, instead of one
> A Masonic "congress" meeting in February for all Masonic groups, to seek ways to work together statewide
> One day class in 13 locations next October 30th
> District ritual teams may confer degrees on multiple candidates
> Any 60+ year old Mason who successfully recommends two new members under 30 are granted lifetime dues remission
> Dues may now be paid via credit or debit card
> A proficiency pin program certified by schools of instruction
> Shortened versions of opening and closings for meetings are now allowed
> Suspensions and expulsions to be largely handled at the local lodge level, and not by the Grand Master
> Relaxation of the traditional formal dress code in meetings
> Per capita increase of 50¢ to support youth groups
> Greater expansion of community and charity service, including an individual commitment by every single Pennsylvania Freemason to perform a weekly random act of kindness
> Simplified secretary/treasurer software to help each lodge with its annual audit
> A written ritual will now be made available for study for the first time in Pennsylvania history
> http://www.lodge515.org/masonic-renaissance
> 
> Other Grand Lodges have lowered the age to petition to 18 and as you have pointed out instituted one day classes.  My own Grand Lodge (Louisiana), now has ciphers for the Catechisms and Rituals, has a "fast track" proficiency, now only requires 5 members instead of 7 to conduct business.
> 
> It doesn't matter if I agree with any or all of the changes being made, some of them are rather significant in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps he was referring to what he perceives to be relaxing of standards in requirements for accepting and advancing candidates, rather than raw numbers.




Some (NOT ALL) of the changes that the brothers in Pennsylvania are instituting, look excellent to me. It just confirms that what I have secretly believed all along,  that Masonry is a "work in progress".

If these changes prove beneficial in the Keystone state, maybe other Grand lodges can emulate them! Bravo!

My home lodge (KY) is very traditional, and I cannot imagine them adopting some of these ideas.

And I do not want to see a lowering of dress standards. I believe that men should dress appropriately for lodge meetings. I have attended Masonic meetings in the combat zone, where we wore battle dress utility uniforms and combat boots. This was appropriate for this situation.

In Paris France, coat and tie is mandatory! If a brother does not have one, the lodge has "loaners".


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## cemab4y

HumbleTXMason said:


> @LAMason
> 
> Thanks for posting the article that clearly states Bro. Dreyfus was made a mason "at sight" and for pointing out that cemab4y had changed his position, since I usually don't go back and re-read all posts when new information is posted. I'd posted on top of p.25 about the "at sight" and felt like a fool when an eye-witness to the event vehemently indicated that wasn't the case.
> 
> Good to be clear on the "at sight" been more than a "hey you... you're a mason now" and that the degrees are conferred on the candidate, etc.




*--Ditto here. I have heard of men being made a mason "at sight", I never put a lot of credence into such tales. I see the spelling "sight" ,when it would be more accurate to spell "site". Also, One-Day classes have been around for many years. I have never been to one. When I went to a place and saw a man being made a Mason in one day, I concluded (incorrectly), that it was a "one-day class". 

I also feel like a fool, because I could make the distinction.*


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## coachn

Aren't all members "Made" Masons in just a few hours?


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## hanzosbm

I joined this forum today after several years away from lodge and saw this discussion.  Knowing the reasons I had been away for so long and considering coming back, I thought it would be interesting to see the ideas that Masons from around the world had on how to improve things. 
Instead what I found was several individuals trying to tear one another down.  Debate is one thing, what several of you have demonstrated is just plain nastiness.  I originally came to masonry in an attempt to surround myself with other men who are trying to improve themselves.  If this is the caliber I can expect to find, then I say good riddance.


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## pointwithinacircle2

At the risk of tooting my own horn, try this thread:
http://myfreemasonry.com/threads/the-great-masonic-challenge.24983/#post-143069
or this one:
http://www.myfreemasonry.com/threads/masonic-training.24979/#post-143832


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## JJones

hanzosbm said:


> I joined this forum today after several years away from lodge and saw this discussion. Knowing the reasons I had been away for so long and considering coming back, I thought it would be interesting to see the ideas that Masons from around the world had on how to improve things.
> Instead what I found was several individuals trying to tear one another down. Debate is one thing, what several of you have demonstrated is just plain nastiness. I originally came to masonry in an attempt to surround myself with other men who are trying to improve themselves. If this is the caliber I can expect to find, then I say good riddance.





jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> You guys are not.being.very "MASONIC" in your conversations here. You sound.like a couple of.old.ladys arguing over whos caserole is better. Act like the men and masons you are and agree to.disagree!....i recomend that someone delete this thread



What's sad is that this thread really had some potential to be informative and interesting, which is why I didn't want to close this thread.  What we've ended up with, however, is 27 pages of brother Masons trying to tear one another down and make each other look like fools.  The conversation has barely remained on topic for the life of this thread anyhow.

If this was the type of discussion I came across when I joined these forums several years ago then it's highly unlikely that I would have stuck around either.  Which is sad because these forums made the biggest contributions towards renewing my interest in Freemasonry and getting me involved once more.

Anyhow, I'm locking this thread.  There are a few nuggets worth reading so I'm hesitant to delete it right now.


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