# Would u return the sign



## Bboc (Sep 14, 2010)

While driving down the road the other day. I saw a car with a mm symbol on the back. The driver was black. He gave me the sign of an ea. Would u return it? Also if u are prince hall if roles where reveresed would u return the sign to a member of a blue lodge.


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## tom268 (Sep 15, 2010)

In my jurisdiction (and all others in Germany too) the sign is no mode of recognition outside the lodge. The grip is, not the sign. You can never know who is watching and whom you just gave the last bits and pieces to become an imposter.


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## Wingnut (Sep 15, 2010)

No and I would NOT to anyone in public


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## Ben Rodriguez (Sep 15, 2010)

Wingnut said:
			
		

> No and I would NOT to anyone in public



I was thinking that exactly!


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## Blake Bowden (Sep 16, 2010)

I wouldn't.


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## Dave in Waco (Sep 16, 2010)

I swore that I wouldn't.


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## Bboc (Sep 19, 2010)

So the way I see it. Every thing that we do now in the lodge is the way they did it when it first started. Or real close to it. Given that i see it like the bible. When it was written that's how it was. But they did not have the Internet. And a bunch of people blabbing their mouth. Nor did they have the history channel (which shows a mm ceremony on it like every other day). In the bible it says a bunch of stuff that I know every one one here as broken. But I'm not touching that subject on here lol. Anyways so If someone flashes a quick sign to a vehicle  to show each other respect I don't see a problem with that at all. ( this auta be interesting wonder how many responses I get to this one. )


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## tom268 (Sep 19, 2010)

If the sign is not more that a funny tradition-greeting to you, you are absolutely right. But at least think about the fact, that it is much much more to other brothers, who consider it something intimate, that is only shared among brothers in the place of the temple. It is a symbol of the obligations we gave, of our innermost spiritual connection to the craft. It is not a "hey-dude-hailing-sign".


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## Bboc (Sep 19, 2010)

tom268 said:
			
		

> If the sign is not more that a funny tradition-greeting to you, you are absolutely right. But at least think about the fact, that it is much much more to other brothers, who consider it something intimate, that is only shared among brothers in the place of the temple. It is a symbol of the obligations we gave, of our innermost spiritual connection to the craft. It is not a "hey-dude-hailing-sign".



I totally see where you are coming from. I guess it's something I need to ponder. But the three times so far that someone I did not know that very quickly gave me the penal sign of an ea I returned the same thing. It was more a sign of respect than a sign of hey what up homey.


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## Ben Rodriguez (Sep 19, 2010)

Signs are a form of Masonic communication inside our lodge. Any mason ought to dismiss such sign given outside of our lodge. Some brothers need to review their obligations!


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## tom268 (Sep 20, 2010)

Bboc said:


> It was more a sign of respect than a sign of hey what up homey.


 Men have so many ways of showing their respect, do we really need one more that may reveal so much? A brother, who uses the sign as a hailing (the one who uses it first) does not only need respect, he needs guidance. Because maybe *he *is the one, who does not take his obligation seriously, or he just haven't understood for what the sign is used for.

What recognitions are allowed outside the lodge are explained in our GL rules. Do you have such?


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## Bro.BruceBenjamin (Oct 7, 2010)

A simple head nod would suffice. I am not in the habit of returning signs thrown from a passing car. Were I grew up the wrong hand sign will get you murdered on the spot in broad day light with no witnesses. Times are hard and I give respect were respect is due, but not in a passing car.

My two cents.


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## mark! (Oct 7, 2010)

How can you verify that person giving the sign isn't the son of an actual mason?  Perhaps he stumbled upon one of many websites that would share this information, and he's just screwing around.  I don't think it should be given as such, in a vehicle or outside the lodge room.


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## Benjamin Baxter (Mar 7, 2011)

I would however use a token of an EA.


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## jhodgdon (Mar 8, 2011)

I was under the impression the sign/grips and words were for lodge use only. And I don't think returning the sign while in a moving vehicle is a good idea for a number of reasons besides the Masonic ones 


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## steve632111 (Mar 8, 2011)

signs to recognize in light grip recognize in dark when driving I was taught to honk the horn


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## Beathard (Mar 8, 2011)

I did not hereafter receive it that way therefore I can not give it. If he pulls over I would be happy to share a token before proceeding.


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## Jacob Johnson (Mar 8, 2011)

With no disrespect to others' opinions, I believe its SILLY to think that the signs and tokens should not be given outside of the lodge. It is a necessary aspect of the examination process. That said, NO you should absolutely NOT give the signs or tokens to the purpose of "hey dude, what up". I think that the signs and tokens are acceptable when used in their intended use... i.e., a man informs you that he is a Mason, and you examine each other. 

We should remember that these MOR's were developed because we are... FREEmasons. That means free to travel and seek work/wages that are due us. So they were obviously developed to be used MOSTLY outside of the lodge. 

But in the interest of discretion, I would say that the signs are too big in their motions to conceal from the eyes of the profane. Most of the tokens would be unrecognizable as such to anyone not giving or receiving it, so they're mostly safe. 

I've had several men notice my ring or a tie tac, or something and give me one of the tokens, smile, and say nothing. 

All that being said, there are PLENTY of other ways to make yourself known as a Mason without doing the sign/token/word. Like I said, I usually elect to simply wear a ring. That's good enough for me most times.

But you should definitely not attempt to give the signs while driving, lol.


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## Benton (Mar 8, 2011)

I've had a brother give me the MM sign subtly without anyone around us nothing. I went to a restaurant, and he was a server. (Stranger, I'd never met him before.) He noticed my ring, introduced himself, and asked if I was finding everything 'on the level tonight' while he quickly gave the sign of a MM. No one noticed it or took it as anything unusual, partially because they were wondering what he meant by on the level, lol. 

But anyway, it was a good experience, as the both of us, complete strangers, had connected in a fraternal way in just a brief passing moment. No one realized that he gave the sign, because they didn't know what to look for.

Of course, that did lead to the, "I'm a Freemason" discussion with my friends, who were oblivious. One of them had never even heard of Freemasonry. So, him popping the phrase 'on the level' introduced a group of people my age to Freemasonry, as well, since it sparked a discussion.

Just an anecdote.


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## Beathard (Mar 8, 2011)

BTW, I'm not sure I would call any of what this thread is talking about signs. The only sign I know of in masonry has to do with distress. I believe the group is discussing due guards.  Of course we all know that and I feel stupid for bringing it up now. Sorry, I will crawl back in my shell. 8)


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## Brother Jason Eddy (Apr 12, 2011)

Kenneth Hart said:


> Yes as a matter of fact I will and have - you don't know by the color of his skin whether or not he is or isn't PHA.  Texas does not prohibit a good man from becoming a Mason based on the color of his skin. We are taught that it is the internal and not the external.
> 
> I travel a great deal and have been acknowledged by Masons of color many times in airports and hotels.
> 
> That being said - if he informs me that he is from a jurisdiction that Texas dosen't have fraternal relations then the Masonic communication ends there, because it is the law. We are told to treat all mankind with the highest regard. Therefore from that point he is a man whom I will regard as man and if he should be in need of my help I will do my very best to assist, because it is the right thing to do. That's what its all about anyway - aint it?



While I would not return the sign, I find your virtuous perspective very honorable.


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## Brother Jason Eddy (Apr 12, 2011)

Beathard said:


> BTW, I'm not sure I would call any of what this thread is talking about signs. The only sign I know of in masonry has to do with distress. I believe the group is discussing due guards.  Of course we all know that and I feel stupid for bringing it up now. Sorry, I will crawl back in my shell. 8)


 
Perhaps this is a regional difference in terminology.  In Ohio, we have both due guards and signs for each degree.


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## Beathard (Apr 12, 2011)

Got it. My bad. Must be getting old. We have penal signs as well, duh!?  Climbing back under my rock.


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## Michaelstedman81 (Apr 12, 2011)

Just curious, but in the even that being stranded on the side of the road, would it be okay to give the penal sign of a EA, RC, or MM (as what I believe the original question is describing) or is that really frowned upon or not even allowed?


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## Beathard (Apr 12, 2011)

I think being stranded on the side of the road in Texas heat with the crazy drivers out there is a life threatening situation that would put anyone in distress.


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## Michaelstedman81 (Apr 12, 2011)

Beathard said:


> I think being stranded on the side of the road in Texas heat with the crazy drivers out there is a life threatening situation that would put anyone in distress.




Hhhahahah


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## MikeMay (Apr 21, 2011)

Beathard said:


> I think being stranded on the side of the road in Texas heat with the crazy drivers out there is a life threatening situation that would put anyone in distress.



Brother, with the heat in Texas, it can be just as stressful "not" being stranded on the highways...I'm still working on cleaning up my vocabulary while driving in traffic.  ;-)


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## choppersteve03 (Apr 22, 2011)

it says here in my e.a. study work that, the word and grip are our means of recognition when among strangers and in distant places, then it goes on to say. the right of salutation is the respectful salute given by canidates and members, and it is a means of signifying their acceptance of the authority of the princeable officers. so to me that means if someone gives me the sign i would not return it, because where not in the lodge and i dont know if dude is a princeable officer or not, you cant be thrown up due guards and signs from a moving car. plus iam with brother bruce, where i come from you get dealt with quick in Oakland CA, for throwing up signs, way too many gangstas.


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## AnthonyBolding (Apr 29, 2011)

I wouldn't. That is not a public thing to do whether he is pha or Grand Lodge of Texas.


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## Ashlar (May 3, 2011)

No I would not . I have had Due guards and signs given to me in public and all I did was nod my head and smile .


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## bullrack33 (Aug 27, 2011)

I would not give any signs in public. Think about it this way, one of the reasons that a Entered Apprentice is not allowed into a Fellowcraft or Masters Lodge is because the signs are given and an EA is not privy to them. 

The Due Guards and Penal Signs are to be kept from the uninitiated.


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## Huw (Aug 27, 2011)

Certainly not.  This is nothing to do with what jurisdiction the other guy belongs to (if any - he might be a fake!), but simply because it's not proper to give a Sn in public.

If I need to test someone who tells me he's a Brother, then I'll find somewhere private for it, not the public street.  And that's darn rare, I've only had proper cause to do this a couple of times in nearly 20 years of membership.

T & F,

Huw


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## dnewman3 (Aug 27, 2011)

This leads to another question.....how have you been approached or approached someone else to allude to their existance in the "ranks"

My self...have passed a token....and had it returned.  But after i saw the "bling".  Or have asked a leading question.


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## Ashlar (Aug 30, 2011)

I do not approach strangers in public who happen to be wearing Masonic insignia's just "for the heck of it" . If it is a brother I know I will say hello . If I know them well , I will strike up a conversation . But I do not actively look for Masonic rings , shirts or hats and if I do notice them I will not actively engage in conversation just because they are Masons . I have been asked leading questions by strangers , but I don't ask them myself , even if I am talking directly to them . Do not take me wrong , I will hold a pleasant conversation with a fellow Mason if he so wishes , I will tell him what lodge I belong to , but I will not speak Masonicly outside of a lodge setting as there is no need for it .

I do not give signs , passes or grips outside of lodge and I would never do it to a stranger . Suppose you notice a ring , walk up and give him a grip and it happens that this man is wearing his (Grand)Father's ring and is not a Mason or is  clandestine  , then you have violated your OB . I have a young couple down the road from me who purchased an old used car that is covered in Masonic decals from the previous owner , suppose you drive by them and give them the sign of an EA or it is the wife of a Mason or the son of a Mason , you have violated your OB . This is why  there is a time and place for these types of things , rings , hats , shirts , car decals may be purchased on the internet by anyone who so wishes to buy them , you have Old Navy selling t-shirts with the SR double headed eagle , you have that Jay Z selling clothes with Masonic imagery on them so we should exercise caution when in public . This is why I do not approach men wearing the S & C as I do not take it for granted that they are true and lawful brother Masons .

And if you must give a sign , grip and word while in public , make sure it is in private and that you have seen a dues card or some other form of validation first or have sat in lodge with them .


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## Brian Morton (Aug 31, 2011)

Great response but I do see a great conversation starter with rings, decals, and the like. That's why there's challenges to weed out the profane.


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## Raymond Walters (Sep 2, 2011)

SMH; 

because if a person is in distress of some kind, they are seeking assistance? Is it not our duty as Freemason's to offer aid to another Freemason and as human beings to offer aid in general. In fact, I recall that our ritual and charges say we are to show preferment to our brother masons first and above the general public. 

And can't a person's masonic standing be gathered discreetly when in a public setting? I advocate that it can if you are truly conversant in the ritual of your jurisdiction, and have made study of Freemasonry in general. This would prevent you from violating your obligations.

There are ways outside of the standard Q & A you may have been taught to ascertain a true brother, and I maintain that questions outside of the "norm" may be safer ways to determine a true brother from an imposter in a public setting. 

As an earlier post commented, a person could be an imposter, yet, I maintain that same imposter with a sign or a grip will not have the things that go with that sign or grip(if they are an imposter). If a person has never sat in a lodge, they will not be able to tell you things that anyone who has sat in a lodge will know. 

Hence, questions outside of the norm may help spot an imposter from the true even quicker, and those questions would be permissible in public, and negate a person from violating their obligations.

I get so puzzled at some the responses I see/read, and how things in our obligations get so twisted into something unrecognizable to the average mason.

Side note: I stopped once to assist a brother mason, who happened to be white (which for me didn't matter). He had such a problem with me being Black, and acknowledging/ responding to him as a Freemason that he turned his masonic ring upside down so that the masonic emblem couldn't be seen from the top of his finger. 

Now, I was a member of the so-called "mainstream" Grand Lodge system at the time, but he never bothered to find out where I hailed from, he made an assumption, and therein is the biggest problem I see with these one-sided viewpoints regarding our obligations. 

In the end, it appears that it is a personal choice whether to acknowledge any masonic signs or to render aid or how to go about it. That's the only point I seek to make, and am not interested in prolonged personal debate on this topic. I have simply offered an opinion, just as others have done on this same topic. 

Respect my opinion as I have respected yours. (I feel this was a required comment since I have certain individuals on this forum that always want to challenge my opinions on subjects up for discussion) Why? Because none of you know me or the personal hell I went through to earn the title "Master Mason".

I thank the original poster of the question, because it was an interesting question(in my opinion).


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## JTM (Sep 2, 2011)

Please remember that "tone" isn't easily conveyed over text.  

No harm was meant.

Either way, this is an internet forum, I would expect opinions to be challenged on a regular basis.  There is no malicious intent that I've seen here.  If you feel that there is, please report the post immediately (it's okay to report mods, me, and blake, too!) and we'll look into it.

Carry on, gents.


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## Plustax (Nov 16, 2013)

I recall years ago while in the military (Ft Sill, OK) of a black woman coming up to me at a ball game and gving me a MM token. Talk about getting caught off guard.... LOL  Of course I said or returned nothing & she proceeded to recite & say things that just threw me for a loop. I had never encountered anything like this so it definitely threw me for a loop & left me dumbfounded. I also recall a young black boy (maybe 13), notice my ring & proceeded to try & give me a token as well & try to have a conversation with other modes of recgnition. He got very frustrated with me when I kept saying I had no idea what he was talking about. I think I must have been a "clandy magnet" for a few years. LOL


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## scialytic (Nov 16, 2013)

jhodgdon said:


> I was under the impression the sign/grips and words were for lodge use only. And I don't think returning the sign while in a moving vehicle is a good idea for a number of reasons besides the Masonic ones 



It is not *only* in Lodge after you know ***HE*** has received the degree in a r&dcL, etc. You must KNOW before commencing in Masonic modes of communication. But in a Lodge is one instance where you can be sure he is a true Brother.


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## BroBook (Nov 16, 2013)

That's the only way to spot us/y'all !!!! now to get around the pretender I was taught not to follow or mimic and never try anybody who isn't trying you ! But why did this person flash you? Did they need help or guidance ? Yes flashing the wrong sign in the right place could get you felled on the spot but there is a difference between being discreet and scared!!! 


My Freemasonry


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## masonicdove (Nov 16, 2013)

i wouldn't give the sign


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## Bro Darren (Nov 16, 2013)

I look forward to learning the signs, handshakes and words on my journey, but from my understanding, these things are about ones trustworthiness in sharing the secrets. To openly offer them in public would tend to make me double guess my trust in that mason. 


My Freemasonry


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## Lowcarbjc (Nov 17, 2013)

Ok but I am curious, so let's say you really want to, how would you indicate to someone else in the car next to you that you are also a brother? 


My Freemasonry


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## Blake Bowden (Nov 18, 2013)

Lol

My Freemasonry


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## PHA KD#50 (Nov 18, 2013)

Lol too funny


My Freemasonry


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## crono782 (Nov 18, 2013)

I take it the OP meant DG &/or PS (but I got the gist)... and no, I would not return it. The S, DG &/or PS is not meant as a mode of recognition (unless you're talking examination, hah).


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## Browncoat (Nov 18, 2013)

To answer the poll, no, I would not return this man's sign. Not in public. That said...I am preparing for my EA exam, which is only 2 days away, so this is all very fresh in my mind. 

The signs of an Entered Apprentice (as well as all degrees), have an allusion. The token and words are ways for you to identify yourself to other Masons. I mean, that's part of the exam, right? You need to know the signs, token, and words in order to advance. You need to be a MM in order to visit other Lodges (at least in my state), all of which being dependent on identifying yourself to others.

I don't interpret signs, tokens and words as being for Lodge use only. Part of the ritual is designed to give you the means to examine others.


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## dfreybur (Nov 19, 2013)

Lowcarbjc said:


> Ok but I am curious, so let's say you really want to, how would you indicate to someone else in the car next to you that you are also a brother?



I wave and pass them so they can see my Master Mason license plates and the plastic frame that says "Proud to be a Shriner".  Often the brother passes me and waves back.  On rare occasions I have changed the wave a bit but that's mostly  when driving to and from GL so there are tons of Brothers on the highway.

When behind a Brother three flashes of the lights works when it's noticed.


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## Bro Darren (Nov 19, 2013)

I would love to know what caused the "MM" in the original post to show the sign of an EA to a complete stranger in the first place. You can't just go throwing out signs to everyone that notices the MM Symbol on your car!


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