# Time from initiation to raising



## jfree7997 (May 24, 2015)

Curious is it possible to go from initiation to raising in 4 months or less without a book or "live in teacher"?


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## MRichard (May 24, 2015)

Yes. Depending on the jurisdiction time limits to the next degree. Someone could have a photographic memory for one thing. Not every jurisdiction is mouth to ear for another. The lodge might be another issue, some schedule degrees more quickly than others. There are many variables that could come into play.


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## dalinkou (May 25, 2015)

jfree7997 said:


> Curious is it possible to go from initiation to raising in 4 months or less without a book or "live in teacher"?



I've seen it done.  The only way this guy could have been faster is a one-day class event.  I remember seeing him in lodge exactly three times....EA, FC, MM, and to this day I haven't seen him ever again.


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## HumbleTXMason (May 25, 2015)

@dalinkou 

wow... that is sad. Have y'all reach out to him to see what happened? I mean, after all that effort, did he just burned out?

@jfree7997 
yes, it is possible I guess... but just curious how the student is going to learn without a teacher (or a book)?


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## Pscyclepath (May 25, 2015)

Me, initiated 2/11/2012, passed 3/15/2012, raised 4/12/2012, a total of 61 days.  Pretty quick, but then I didn't miss very many study sessions and was diligent about learning the lectures.

You are pretty much the limiting factor.  you mest learn and turn in your proficiency lectures for the EA and FC before you can receive the next degree, and in many jurisdictions it's required to lay over one month between degrees. I turned my lectures in at the very next meeting after the degree, so was able to scoot on through in minimum time.  And we are a mouth-to-ear jurisdiction, so you learn from a lecturer...


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## dfreybur (May 25, 2015)

It's somewhat common WITH a book or live teacher.  Of course it is best with a live teacher.  There are tales of brothers who did their degrees a month or even a week apart and delivered both the questions and answers for their proficiencies.  Usually the tales are about the skills of a professional actor but sometimes about a brother who happens to have had an in born talent for memorization.

Not sure how it could be done without a book or live teacher except by someone with an in born talent for memorization.  More importantly I'm not sure why it would be considered beneficial.  The fastest I've seen non-class degrees performed was 3 days in a row by special dispensation for a candidate who was abut to ship overseas for a combat deployment.  He was going to have to do his proficiencies when he got back.


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## LAMason (May 25, 2015)

I did mine on 3 consecutive regular meeting nights. EA-10-12-1973, FC-10-26-1973, MM-11-9-1973.  I was in college at the time and made six 80 mile round trips to meet with my instructor between the EA and FC, it did not take that many between the FC and MM, mouth to ear, he was retired and was a very good instructor. He became my mentor in Freemasonry, a role model, and very dear friend.  I miss him very much and think of him often and the influence he had on me and many other Masons young and old.

I was then elected and installed as JW at our regular meeting on 12-14-73.


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## dalinkou (May 26, 2015)

HumbleTXMason said:


> @dalinkou
> 
> wow... that is sad. Have y'all reach out to him to see what happened? I mean, after all that effort, did he just burned out?
> 
> ...



Several people did, but as far as I know, he's never been back.  It's kind of hard to be burned out if you only come to Lodge three times though.


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## Companion Joe (May 26, 2015)

It took me four months, only because one of those months was December 1993, and our lodge doesn't do degree work in December. I was fortunate enough to be young (22) and sharp and have the time to work on the lectures freely with my instructor.


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## Joshua71 (May 28, 2015)

I was initiated in the month of February, passed in the month of April and not raised until the month of September when I went through. We go dark for July and August so that's just how the timeline fell. I was quite happy that it took the time it took. I waited over a year to be initiated anyway so I felt it was all worth the wait and enjoyed the ride lol. Still am!


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## frs225 (May 29, 2015)

Yes very possible. My lodge is mouth to ear and holds "education" sessions every Monday. My brother and I attended just about every week and had no issues. We actually continued to attend and are currently learning how to confer degrees. Good luck to you, and don't stress... this is going to be a very rewarding time in your life. Enjoy it. Another tip that I was given here was do not research the degrees before you go through them. It lessens the experience.


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## jfree7997 (May 29, 2015)

Oh no I was raised about 3 weeks ago.  I was just curious because up here I'm seeing a lot of guys go from beginning to end in 3 months.  Not really understand how or if that even makes sense to do so fast.


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## MarkR (May 31, 2015)

It's most commonly _two _months in my area, actually.  Initiate an EA today, he'll spend the month working with a coach, prove up, pass to FC one month from today, spend a month working with a coach, prove up, raise to MM two months from today.  Some take longer to learn the work, but most don't.


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## Glen Cook (May 31, 2015)

jfree7997 said:


> Curious is it possible to go from initiation to raising in 4 months or less without a book or "live in teacher"?


I did so: Jan, Feb., Mar, demonstrating proficiency for each degree in open lodge.  We had no book.  I went to my coach's home.


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## Bob Reed (Jun 3, 2015)

It's impressive that so many can learn the full proficiency in so short a time, especially when it's ear to mouth. It can obviously be done, but my question is why so fast? Are we shortchanging the EA and FC degrees by spending so little time on them? I think so. Why not take some time to meditate on the lessons and hidden meaning contained in the degree, especially the penalties. What is the benefit of moving so fast?


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## Glen Cook (Jun 3, 2015)

I've not seen a qualitative difference in learning lessons of the degrees between thirty days or thirty months (indeed, 30 years for some).  Remember, the two degrees were conferred in one day in Scotland. Stevenson, _The First Freemasons_.  Further, it is uniquely US that the lengthy proficiency has been required.  In UGLE, where it may well take a year to get the degrees as we may only have four meetings and one is installation, proficiency is about 11 questions with the Deacon prompting.


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## hanzosbm (Jun 3, 2015)

Bob Reed said:


> Are we shortchanging the EA and FC degrees by spending so little time on them? I think so. Why not take some time to meditate on the lessons and hidden meaning contained in the degree, especially the penalties. What is the benefit of moving so fast?



I was getting ready to say 'yes', that we are short changing them.  However, I think the question is a bit more difficult to answer than that.  There is SO much to learn from each of the degrees that it could easily take years for each one.  I will even go so far as to say that it would be impossible to understand what has been presented in a month or two.  That being said, not everyone is looking for that deep of a level of understanding.  The deeper lessons of Freemasonry are there and available to those who seek them and are willing to put the time and effort into finding them, but for those who aren't interested in that aspect, it shouldn't be thrust upon them.
That being said, I think where we often run into problems is that there are essentially 2 paths for 'proficiency'.  There is memorizing the catechisms and attaining a true understanding.  The question is how to make both paths available to the new brothers.

Case in point: I was entered on 03/12/2009, passed on 07/09/2009, and raised on 09/12/2009.  My EA and FC catechisms were perfect, both question and answer in the long form.  But looking back on it, I didn't have the slightest clue about what was really being presented to me.  I am now going back and relearning a lot.  However, what is the alternative?  If someone would've told me the night of my initiation that there is a much deeper meaning to the ritual and that it would likely take years to understand before moving on and then doing it all over again, what would my reaction have been?  Furthermore, is offering that up pointe blank a bit like cheating?  In my lodge, if there were any brothers looking deeper, it was unknown to me, so the thought of slowing down would've been met with a resounding 'why?'.


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## Bob Reed (Jun 3, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> I've not seen a qualitative difference in learning lessons of the degrees between thirty days or thirty months (indeed, 30 years for some).  Remember, the two degrees were conferred in one day in Scotland. Stevenson, _The First Freemasons_.  Further, it is uniquely US that the lengthy proficiency has been required.  In UGLE, where it may well take a year to get the degrees as we may only have four meetings and one is installation, proficiency is about 11 questions with the Deacon prompting.



I did not know that about Scotland...thanks! I just wonder that a new brother coming in might be disappointed to shotgun through the degrees and be left asking: Is that it? I just hear stories about brothers never coming back after their raising and wonder if their attention and expectations may have been better cultivated by being compelled to look deeper at what they just experienced. But as was stated by hanzosbm it is up to the individual to do that. Anyway good perspectives that I really didn't have before.


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## Glen Cook (Jun 3, 2015)

By way of analogy, even though my mother jurisdiction of Utah has requirements to be a Master (open, close and confer all three degrees, KS in third, one of the degree lectures), I didn't really know the ritual until I served a G Lecturer some 10 years years into my Masonic career. I certainly didn't "rush" through the ritual.  I still had t absorbed all I should learn. I've been practicing Masonic jurisprudence for my mother GL and three international bodies for some 16 years.  I just learned something new last week (some jurisdictions allow any MM to confer the degree). 

OTOH, maybe I'm just a slow learner.


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## dfreybur (Jun 4, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> I just learned something new last week (some jurisdictions allow any MM to confer the degree).



Because the long form of the proficiency (for jurisdictions that have a long form) contains so much of the opening and all of the obligation, I had no idea that some jurisdictions restrict who can obligate.  Maybe I learned that for the jurisprudence qualification for JW and have since forgotten?  I know of restrictions to open a lodge but not to obligate.  I thought it was tradition in my jurisdictions that wardens, masters or PM obligate not a requirement.


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 15, 2015)

In Kentucky there has to be at least 28 days between degrees.


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 17, 2015)

In oregon the norm is to ve enterted today, next regular communication prove up, then either a special communication will he called or at the next regular you will be passed and that will be repeated for the raising.  On occasions where the candidateslif gets in the way they may open lodge, prove up, close and reopen for the degree


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## Canadian Paul (Jun 18, 2015)

In lodges holding of the GL of Scotland, the 'proving of proficiency', as said earlier, consists of answering only a handful of provided questions, with prompting by the Deacon allowed! In theory candidate could get all 3 degrees in a few days. In practice, except in special circumstances, the shortest time would be four monthly meetings from balloting to MM degree. However, since lodges always work in the EA degree the EA is able to sit in lodge immediately upon being Initiated and so no pressure is felt about having to get him to the 3rd degree so he can sit in lodge. In my Mother Lodge, as in many others, the preference is to let the brother sit as an EA for several months before being Passed so he can observe and learn, both in his own lodge and by visiting other lodges. The same reasoning follows for having him sit as a FC for a while before being Raised. A similar situation holds in our sister jurisdiction, the GL of Newfoundland and Labrador.


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## Roy Vance (Jun 18, 2015)

In Texas, there is a mandatory two weeks between degrees, although, an EA has up to a year to complete his memory work and prove his proficiency in open lodge. FC also has up to a year, but MM must show his proficiency in open lodge within ninety days or he could go suspended. Now, in case a MM is not able to turn in his work in the alloted time, the Master of the Lodge may grant a short, up to sixty days, extention, as long as the Brother has not *WILLFULLY* refused to do the work. For example, I was initiated on 24 March 2011, passed 05 May 2011 and raised on 25 May 2011, but, I was able to meet with my instructor/mentor four days a week. I also turned in all three sections of the EA at one single meeting. Let me tell you, that was a lot of work.


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## Dennis Hurts (Jun 19, 2015)

I did it in three and a half, at 
Fred C. Brooks 60# in Oakland Ca..
It's up to the individual,how bad you want learn,and better yourself!


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