# Sacred Geometry



## Virgin Islands Brother

So, I'm digging a little deeper into the hidden mysteries of nature and science. My RA companion has been enthusiastic from the jump. I'm trying to figure out the 5 p solids and I get a text from him that baffles my eyes. An Internet search into the solids now peaks interest in sacred geometry. After absorbing as much as I can. I realize I'm overwhelmed, it's 12:30 am and I've been reading and surfing for 4 hours. It's implications are astounding; however, how to use it in life is the riddle I'm trying to solve. I want to believe this is an individual journey. The question is, as masons, how has this information been used in your life? Is it limited to study and speculation, or can it be applied?


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## BryanMaloney

I have found sacred geometry to be an amusing diversion.


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## widows son

I think there may be something behind it but a serious inquiry needs to be put into it. I also want to believe as there are many cultures and even masonry that's boasts about geometry. But I think it's a bit more mundane at closer scrutiny. Another thing I'm on the fence with.


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## JJones

I don't find it mundane at all, check this out:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number

That's just scratching the surface in my opinion.


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## jvarnell

You need to look at Frequency's and which are natural Fibonacci numbers.  Witch some old coulchers called the third eye.


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## widows son

I've read quite a bit about sacred geometry, like I said, we need a serious inquiry into it, I'm not a scientist so I can't say for sure if it's true or not, but it's compelling to say the least.


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## jvarnell

widows son said:


> I've read quite a bit about sacred geometry, like I said, we need a serious inquiry into it, I'm not a scientist so I can't say for sure if it's true or not, but it's compelling to say the least.



What were the major titles so I can go find them?


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## widows son

If your asking for references to books I've read on sacred geometry, here they are:
The ancient secret of the flower of life by drunvalo melchizedek 

The temple of Karnak
R.A. Schwallwer de lubicz

The secret teachings of all ages
Manly P. Hall

Sacred geometry: philosophy and practice
Robert Lawlor

Uriel's machine
Christopher knight and Robert Lomas

I havent been able to find much on the debunking side so far, only what google can find and they all say the same thing. If you come across something that debunks it please let me know as i am incorporating it in my anti Masonic work


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## widows son

Se Lubicz has a bunch of books on the subject which I think are worth the read.


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## MarkR

I got some of the best introductory understanding of Sacred Geometry from The Secrets of Solomon's Temple by Kevin L. Gest.

http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Solom...TF8&qid=1352443202&sr=1-3&keywords=kevin+gest


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## Virgin Islands Brother

Thanks for citing those sources, I will have to check them out.


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## widows son

Ya id say they're worth the read, but just remember that these are just theories and are not peer reviewed


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## Virgin Islands Brother

Got ya. But I agree with you. Some sort of fact finding mission should take place.


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## widows son

Absolutely, problem is everyone capable looks at it and dismisses it before even viewing it. I think some scientists need to get off their high  horse, a lot of people with ideas that seems unorthodox at the time have proven to be right later on, perhaps this can be another case of that...


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## Ecossais

The dimensions of the Texas apron, as specified in Grand Lodge Law, provides a solution for the ancient problems of "Squaring the Circle." 

The dimensions of the Texas apron are based on the Phi Proportion (or Golden Section), which is approximately 1.61803....  The Texas apron is sixteen inches square, with a six-inch drop in the triangular bib. This divides the height of the apron into two parts, the bib (6 inches), and the part from the tip of the bib to the bottom of the apron (10 inches). Think of drawing the apron on a checkerboard, which is 8 squares by 8. If each square is 2 by 2, then the checkerboard is 16 by 16. The tip of the bib would be at a point 3 squares down from the top on the vertical centerline of the checkerboard.

If you take a compass, and put one point at the tip of the bib, and the other point at the mid-point of the bottom edge of the apron (or checkerboard), so that you have a radius of ten inches between the compass points, and then draw a circle, using the point at the tip of the bib as the center of the circle, you will have a circle with a circumference that very closely approximates the perimeter of the apron.

In fact, each of the two bottom edges of the bib will also approximate the radius so that the circle will just touch the top two corners of the apron (or checkerboard).

An equilateral triangle can be drawn between the two bottom points of the apron and the tip of the bib. The dimensions of this triangle are based on the Phi Proportion. The height of that triangle, when divided by half the base, will approximate 1.618.... (The Phi Proportion). That triangle is of the same dimensions as the Great Pyramid on the Gizeh Plateau in Egypt.

The Phi Proportion can be demonstrated by the Fibonacci series of numbers:  1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21 ..., where each number in the series, added to the next number, will give you the third number. So, 3 plus 5 equals 8, and 5 plus 8 equals 13, and so on. When you take any number in the series and divide it by the previous number, the answer will approximate 1.618... (The Phi Proportion). So, 21 divided by 13 equals 1.615.... The higher you go up the number series, the ratio of one number to the previous becomes closer and closer to the exact Phi Proportion.

Here's an interesting factoid: Years ago, when archaeologists were stumped by the fact that there seemed to be an expanding ratio of distances along the "Avenue of the Dead" in the Teotihuacan Pyramid complex near Mexico City, they asked the Astronomer General from Scotland to take a look at their drawings. He did some quick measurements and realized that the distances were based on the Fibonacci Series, and therefore, the Phi Proportion. The archaeologists, not being mathematicians, did not understand what he was trying to tell them. So, he picked up a guitar and laid the neck of the guitar along the blueprint drawing of the Avenue of the Dead. He then fretted the guitar neck at each of the points on the drawing and played the subsequent chords, each one higher in pitch than the previous. Everyone immediately recognized the music "Thus Spake Zarathustra" by Richard Strauss. This was the same music used in Stanley Kubrick's movie "2001: A Space Odyssey" when all the planets came into alignment.


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## widows son

Ecossais, you and I need to meet in person. Your apron info has solidified my theories further on the dimensions of the apron, all of the stated points I wholly agree and feel more inquiry needs to be done in general by those capable to do so.


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## jvarnell

Thanks


widows son said:


> If your asking for references to books I've read on sacred geometry, here they are:
> The ancient secret of the flower of life by drunvalo melchizedek
> 
> The temple of Karnak
> R.A. Schwallwer de lubicz
> 
> The secret teachings of all ages
> Manly P. Hall
> 
> Sacred geometry: philosophy and practice
> Robert Lawlor
> 
> Uriel's machine
> Christopher knight and Robert Lomas
> 
> I havent been able to find much on the debunking side so far, only what google can find and they all say the same thing. If you come across something that debunks it please let me know as i am incorporating it in my anti Masonic work


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## BryanMaloney

widows son said:


> Absolutely, problem is everyone capable looks at it and dismisses it before even viewing it. I think some scientists need to get off their high  horse, a lot of people with ideas that seems unorthodox at the time have proven to be right later on, perhaps this can be another case of that...



You neglected to mention that none of this stuff is new. It was bandied about in the Renaissance and studied extensively by the scientists of that time. They discovered that it was rubbish and forgot about it. Serious scientists should not have to waste their time refuting nonsense over and over, every time it recrudesces.


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## BryanMaloney

Ecossais said:


> He then fretted the guitar neck at each of the points on the drawing and played the subsequent chords, each one higher in pitch than the previous. Everyone immediately recognized the music "Thus Spake Zarathustra" by Richard Strauss. This was the same music used in Stanley Kubrick's movie "2001: A Space Odyssey" when all the planets came into alignment.



The point being? Strauss came from an era when musicians were expected to know math (and mathematicians expected to play an instrument).


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## JJones

BryanMaloney said:


> You neglected to mention that none of this stuff is new. It was bandied about in the Renaissance and studied extensively by the scientists of that time. They discovered that it was rubbish and forgot about it. Serious scientists should not have to waste their time refuting nonsense over and over, every time it recrudesces.



:blink:

The same scientists that believed the world was flat and advocated use of leeches to heal the sick?

I don't know about it being nonsense brother.  Respectfully, I think we shouldn't dismiss one another's beliefs as rubbish simply because we don't subscribe to it.

Personally, I think we are taught to learn math and geometry for reasons that far exceed building with stone.  I believe examples of the golden ration and the Fibonnaci sequence can be found all throughout nature...if masons use math and geometry to build structures why wouldn't the Great Geometrician use it in nature?  By learning how to understand and identify sacred geometry we become more capable of appreciating the work of the Divine.

.02


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## widows son

But music is math, I play music myself and every note and octave can translate into a number value. This stuff has been around long before the renaissance, and serious inquiry has been done especially by those during the renaissance, for example davinci, who himself devoted his life to these subjects. The problem is that modern science and it's methods don't consider these methods the people in that era used we're valid, so inquiry stops there, but men like Carl Sagan ( happy birthday) see something behind it all. Carl Sagan is a great example and there are many videos on the subject. Show how it is rubbish otherwise it's hearsay on your part.


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## widows son

JJones I agree with those points


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## jwhoff

there goes another bedroom wall?  If you guys keep this digging up, I'm gonna have to by a single-bed, bath with a warehouse attached to cover this growing library.

:blink:


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## BryanMaloney

widows son said:


> But music is math, I play music myself and every note and octave can translate into a number value. This stuff has been around long before the renaissance, and serious inquiry has been done especially by those during the renaissance, for example davinci, who himself devoted his life to these subjects. The problem is that modern science and it's methods don't consider these methods the people in that era used we're valid, so inquiry stops there, but men like Carl Sagan ( happy birthday) see something behind it all. Carl Sagan is a great example and there are many videos on the subject. Show how it is rubbish otherwise it's hearsay on your part.



I know people who still believe crap like the "doctrine of signs". I don't have the time and money to refute stupid pseudomedicine, and that's within my own field. How about you contact professional physicists, yourself, and demand they disprove things already disproved long ago, just to satisfy your ego?


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## widows son

Again I see no reference. You are the one trying to convince me that I'm wrong, so why not reference your comments? I think you have the ego problem my friend. I saying we need to look more into certain subjects because there hasnt been a serious inquiry into it, and you saying its rubbish because you say so, doesn't cut it for me.  I never asked you to look into these subject nor do I think you are the right person to do so. Everyone here knows you think it's crap, so why keep insulting other people? I can easily insult you, but I won't because it would go against my MM OB, and it's just not a nice thing to do. Check YOUR ego, king of science.


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## BryanMaloney

Because logic favors "It is not true" over "It is true"--that is how proof has always worked in the real wold. Show the evidence. Show the actual experiments that prove. Responsible thought requires that we not believe until evidence is presented. Therefore, since you believe it to be true, the responsibility lies upon you. This is the underpinning of all science and has always been. It is the underpinning of "innocent until proven guilty"--as in "not true until proven true".

Everything is done by invisible pink Gremlins, who use pixie dust! If you don't disprove it, then it MUST be true!!!!!


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## JJones

> Everything is done by invisible pink Gremlins, who use pixie dust! If you don't disprove it, then it MUST be true!!!!!



I've seen that same argument used countless times by Athiests to justify their beliefs.  You can't paint everything with such broad brush strokes.

Just because you can't prove something right off the bat doesn't discredit it.  As a biologist I can appreciate the scientific method and the advances it has brought us but on the other hand just because something isn't yet proven doesn't mean it doesn't have merit.

Sorry to say it but "sacred geometry" will always be considered pseudo science and will never be taken seriously by the scientific community.


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## widows son

Right and this far I agree with you, and I don't really believe the sacred geometry theories but, CERN and other new technologies are allowing us to see smaller and smaller. The part that intrigued me is how there seems to be a pattern on every scale.


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## Trufflehound

BryanMaloney said:


> Because logic favors "It is not true" over "It is true"--that is how proof has always worked in the real wold. Show the evidence. Show the actual experiments that prove. Responsible thought requires that we not believe until evidence is presented. Therefore, since you believe it to be true, the responsibility lies upon you. This is the underpinning of all science and has always been. It is the underpinning of "innocent until proven guilty"--as in "not true until proven true".
> 
> Everything is done by invisible pink Gremlins, who use pixie dust! If you don't disprove it, then it MUST be true!!!!!


Bryan, if I understand correctly,he's saying that he would like someone in the scientific community to go back and re-examine.  Nothing more.  He doesn't need to prove anything; he isn't really making any extraordinary claims.  If someone were to go back and look at this again (I'm sure they already have), I don't see an issue with it.  I also don't see any reason for all the condescension, either.


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## widows son

Yes that's all I'm saying needs to happen with our modern methods we can either prove and move forward or disprove  and move forward. Many of the conspiracies are tied into this subject and of we can definitively figure out if there's truth or not will significantly change perceptions of the way we go about our lives, and they way people perceive freemasonry. A brother posted some valuable info on our aprons. If the masons who put this into practice agree that there is something behind it why not look into it? When looking at everything from a strictly scientific point of view things can be cold, and things that appear to be pseudoscience can  change as we find newer way to explain our questions.


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## CajunTinMan

STOP!!! your hurting my head! I am trying to keep my mind closed and your streching my brain. I reject your reality and substitute my own.


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## daddyrich

The condescension is pretty strong here. I always thought it was an interesting topic but everyone seems concerned w/ it's 'practical' applications and that's what it will take  before it can travel from 'interesting notion' to a basis for an applicable world view. I'm always looking for signs and finding them, just wondering what is to be done after you recognize them. You keep writing, Widows Son, and I will keep reading.


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## widows son

Thank you brothers, I also wonder if anything real found, where does it apply in the real world?


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## daddyrich

I can see how the Dionysiac Builders erected temples according to attributes they believed corresponded to astral alignments that 'shared' qualities w/ the deities they were consecrated to. That's kind of cool. Same w/ the Great Pyramid at Giza, et al.


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## daddyrich

Vitruvius covered that pretty well, if you haven't read what remains of his writings on architecture, you really should. Same with Hawksmoor and other great builders.


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## widows son

Will do. I have McCoys dictionary of freemasonry and a chapter is dedicated to the dionysiac artificers, pretty cool stuff. Especially on how he goes to say one of the last roman legions to exist after the fall of the empire was in York England. Roman legions always had a group of masons to help build their fortifications and war machines, and apparently a lot of what stone masonry in England and Europe is, came down from them. I find it fascinating.


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## CajunTinMan

daddyrich said:


> The condescension is pretty strong here. I always thought it was an interesting topic but everyone seems concerned w/ it's 'practical' applications and that's what it will take  before it can travel from 'interesting notion' to a basis for an applicable world view. I'm always looking for signs and finding them, just wondering what is to be done after you recognize them. You keep writing, Widows Son, and I will keep reading.


. 
I am sorry my Brothers. If I sounded condescending it was purely intentional and for a point. If two Brothers can sit and enjoy each others company discussing some 'interesting notions' then that's 'practical application' enough and time well spent. As I get older i find that a nice cold drink and a warm conversation can be a very valuable thing.


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## CajunTinMan

Although I am not as intelligent as some of our good Brothers here and worthy of involvement  in their debates.  I find it interesting, non the less, to read the various thoughts and to ponder how they fit into the scheme of things as I know it. Without ideals that stretch limits of our imagination we cannot grow.  We must remember that for hundreds of years the greatest scientific minds of the time believed that the earth was the center of the universe and any other thoughts were just hogwash.  I know we feel that we are a lot more intelligent now, but are we really?  Or are we still just infants when it comes to truly understanding the universe.


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## widows son

I believe we are infants in that way, or entered apprentices


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## CajunTinMan

Lol. Good way to put it.


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## Virgin Islands Brother

Some pretty interesting information was shared here. Although the discussion got a little heated, I am walking away with more information than I came with-especially the explanation of the apron. 

I think it is important to note that we can disagree without injuring each others feelings. One of the main things that attracted me to this board was the ability to voice your opinions without the discussion deteriorating to subtle jabs at intellect. I believe that all of us have been given the tools necessary to keep our discussions tasteful to the majority. 

Additionally, I am admittedly still learning. So, I might find information shared fascinating. Others may not. Respect is the key. Keep in mind, and I have been guilty of this myself, sometimes we can lose track of the tone of our delivery-be it verbal or written.


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## jvarnell

I got everything I needed from Widows Son and MarkR when they listed resources for me to resurch I to don't need any one giving me their views of sources of information, I will decide if they are good or bad.  Good subject.


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## widows son

True say brothers.  If there's anything I'd say to watch its the cosmos series by Carl Sagan, it's quite good for being made in the 70s. He puts a great outlook on science.


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## BryanMaloney

Where will the money come from to conduct the research? Contrary to popular delusion, scientists have mortgages, children to feed, etc. Laboratories require money to run. Technical staff has to be paid. Money to fund research does not come out of a magic fairy pot. It is limited and very strictly doled out. Contrary to popular delusion, scientists don't get to wander wherever they want. Research money is given out for specific projects. If this "sacred geometry" is so important, raise the money to fund research. 

Cue the conspiracy theories to make excuses why money won't be available.


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## widows son

Well Bryan, maybe we should fund research for it. Science may be a cold calculated subject for you, but if we didn't dive into the things unknown how would advance? By studying subjects that we are not sure of, to learn and figure out where it fits with the rest the world is why we continue to look in the unknown. Just because money is need doesn't mean it shouldn't be researched. The fact that a fellow brother showed you the math that PHI and fibbonaci are used in the design of your apron that you wear as a badge, I think should tell you that those mathematical sequences have importance in nature, and you are told to divulge into it.  We need to remember that just because YOU dont believe it doesn't mean that it's not worth looking into, and doesn't mean that it's useless.  I also think that your comments are offensive and condescending. You have the right to believe in what you want, but don't offend others for what they believe, it's unmasonic, and gives a bad impression on those who aren't masons.


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## barryguitar

I have not read most of this thread because there is too much irrelevant bickering going on when a very good topic was offered for our edification. But I would like to offer a little evidence to the existence of the reality of sacred geometry.
The equal temperament piano, and the violin. Harmony, melody, and the difference between music and noise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
As a guitar builder I use phi to lay out fingerboards, correct intonation, and create a fundamental tone according to the dimensions of the resonator as it relates to string length. It is a ratio that exists now as it did in nature long before man discovered it.Without it there is no musical scale.
The violin was invented by a man named Andrea Amatti after a conversation with Leonardo Di Vinci about using the golden ratio to calculate the various dimensions of the various parts of a lute in order to maximize the resonant frequencies. This system was perfected  by his grandson Nicolo who taught this sacred art to Antonio Stradivarius who over the course of his lifetime applied the same proportions to all his instruments: violin, viol, viola de gamba, cello, double bass, and even created several guitarra batenta (early guitar with ten strings) It is from these proportions that nearly every instrument on the earth is based today. Every music store in the world has that one strange instrument that nobody likes the sound of because the builder tried to work outside of this ratio.

This ratio is what defines beauty and perfection. It surprises me greatly that I would find on this blogsite a brother who would reject this most basic notion that some buildings are more beautiful than others because the builder applied these same proportions of divinity when others knew nothing about there existence. I so often hear it said that there are no secrets in masonry. It is sad that so much of what our ancient brothers considered so sacred has been rejected (ignorantly) by the modern fraternity.


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## widows son

I wholly agree with you. I myself play guitar and am intrigued by your findings. Are you familiar for the reason why instruments are now tuned in 440hz when they used to be in 432hz?


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## daddyrich

Damn, some folks just don't find this a worthy pursuit, apparently. Good on you guys for not being deterred. Strange to have a topic like this, so initmately entwined w/ Freemasonry get pounded into the ground by people. Very odd. Keep it going Widows Son, for what it's worth - I support your desire to learn more and will keep up my studies on my end as well.


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## widows son

Bryan you are a mason and therefore my brother. We have our own beliefs, we can dispute them all we want but it doesn't matter because it's not going to get us or anyone, anywhere. You said your a biologist and it's obvious you are quite learned in the subject and I respect that, and have learned a few things from you too. But I did not join this forum with the intention of creating animosity, I'll feeling or to center anyone out. So from one brother to another, I apologize if I have struck any nerve. We are on this forum because of Freemasonry, regardless of the subject, and are therefore representing it, so let us do so in a respectful, professional, and honest way. Men who are newly initiated and who are prospecting our order need to see us uphold the name of a master mason


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## Frater Cliff Porter

Just a late two sense.  Euclid's Elements is essential to understand this topic.  You can't understand the sacred if you don't first understand the Geometry and because in his Elements, Geometry is presented as a moral science it is all the more important.

The Pythagorean Source Book would, likewise, prove exceedingly valuable as it is the current largest collection of Pythagorean philosophical writings from the various neo-Pythagorean biographies to small philosophical fragments.  Masons will be shocked at the similarities of Masonry and what is known about the Pythagoreans.


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## widows son

Yes I've come across some of the neo- Pythagorean works and was surprised at the findings.


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## widows son

Also check out the video on YouTube: Secrets in plain site. Not a conspiracy video, the gentleman narrating the video also made the video, I won't explain as to not ruin it for those who are going to view. But again I will say, NOT a conspiracy video. Enjoy brethren.


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## Godfrey Daniel

Â¢Â¢


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## widows son

It is a textbook but Euclid, and the like essentially saw geometry as something different than we do today.


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## Godfrey Daniel

"moral science"


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## widows son

I haven't really found anything that's says otherwise, specifically on Euclid, but however, on the topic of geometry many credible thinkers have written about the peculiarity of mathematics and deity. It is present in our lodges, our aprons, ritual, monuments, road plans, musical instruments, Masonic and Non Masonic. To deny that I say watch the video I recommended on an earlier post in this thread. The ancient Greeks always related their findings back to the singularity of the deity, and used the symbols of geometry to explain it. Pythagoras even started a secret society, believing that one had to be worthy to understand and utilize the science. Today this is not the case as anyone can learn this subject in school, but I think this happened due to science being devoid of any spirituality, even if those that contribute to it are spiritual, so naturally any thought relating to spirituality and science is immediately debunked. Issac Newton was a firm believer that spirituality and science should be one subject, not religious in nature but the esoteric aspects, coupled with scientific inquiry.


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## Godfrey Daniel

Wholly owned and operated, Batman.


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## widows son

I don't think hes trying to add mysticism to the film, I think hes just showing how it's almost everywhere. I'm skeptical on most conspiracies, of not all, but when it comes to this subject i too look from a critical eye, but still think there is something to it worth studying.


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## Godfrey Daniel

108 (ha)


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## Godfrey Daniel

He should have spent the $$$


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## widows son

I'm pretty sure illuminat, annunaki and the like aren't mentioned in movie.


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## widows son

And I didn't get any conspiracy feel out of it at all, but if that is what you got out of it I cant argue that. I feel the point the narrator is trying to get at is that sacred geometry is present throughout the world, regardless of culture or creed, and I think he is just bringing to light the fact that there is something to it. I don't think he says the illuminati or annunaki are responsible for it, nor does he say that there is a secret cabal behind it, so I don't where you are getting that from. You don't have to agree with it, I thought it would be a kind gesture to tell those who are interested in it and who take it seriously to watch. Especially since its present in freemasonry. So my question is do you not agree with it because you have found information that is contrary to it, or do you not agree with it because you think the narrator is a conspiracy theorist? ( which he is not)


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## Godfrey Daniel

I did enjoy


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## widows son

It's obvious you are quite familiar with the subject. An you are right that he does speculate a lot on the subject. I haven't viewed the movie in a month or too so I think I forgot about his mention of sitchin. Either way he brings forth some info to further ponder on and further investigation. In reference to aprons, an earlier post by another brother on this thread was made in the measurements of the aprons worn by Texas masons, and it's  relationship with the golden ratio. I still don't see the film as conspiracy because if it was I would of turned it off. Like I said, a serious inquiry by professionals should be done to determine what is relevant and what is not. If you have some light to shed on the subject I'd love to read/watch it


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## widows son

BTW sitchin and the ancient aliens is all bunk IMO


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## Godfrey Daniel

I should be on "Jeopardy".


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## Frater Cliff Porter

For the Brother that was wondering why I offered Elements for moral study, the idea is not new.  First, in order to study the sacred aspects of Geometry, we must study the "number."

Second, it was believed by many traditional schools that Elements teaches and conditions the mind towards precise logical thinking.  It was once said, "that being steeped, day in and day out, in the rigorous and precise demonstrative character of Euclidâ€™s proofs accustoms the mind to employ such rigor in formulating its own thoughts, and, on the other hand, to recognize the gaps in less sound arguments it may encounter." 

It is also believed that the study of the forms manifest the moral habit of the mindâ€™s general orientation towards the truth.

The idea of the axiom was believe to apply to all and every aspect of the Universe to include the spiritual.  In other words, we could not, in our spiritual lives, escape the Divine Principle.  So we must always work from the axiom outward to arrive at a moral conclusion.

I hope that helps.  My recommendation remains that all books deserve study and meditation...and a pen a paper.  Studying geometry without studying number is like trying to pray without thinking about God.


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## Godfrey Daniel

so interesting


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## widows son

Ya I saw the Venus transit this past summer online in real time. Pretty sweet if you ask me. And I'm quite familiar with bro. Halls work, i have about 5 of of his books and have numerous audio files of him speaking. The platonic solids are present in most forms in nature if not all, from micro to macro.


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## Godfrey Daniel

Blessed are the eyes that see, and the ears that hear, and the heart that understands.


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## Godfrey Daniel

Proposition XXX


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## widows son

I'm not exactly sure what your trying to get at


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## Godfrey Daniel

structures


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## widows son

I think one of the most important concepts in sacred geometry is the term squaring the circle.


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## Godfrey Daniel

Why do you think


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## Godfrey Daniel

Thought


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## widows son

Well from what I've gathered it's nearly impossible to do mathematically, but as always with freemasonry theres the beauty of allegory. I believe the phi ratio had something to do with it also.


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## Godfrey Daniel

Metapontum


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## widows son

I thought the great pyramid was true to phi among other things


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## Godfrey Daniel

He's the one in the tutu.


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## widows son

The degree of Inaccuracy could account for the fact that even in nature phi isn't always accurate varying in a few decimal places, which maybe the builder tried to demonstrate. I personally believe that the Pyramids of Giza weren't designed to be a tomb at all. Manly. P Hall states that it was intended to be a chamber of initiation into the rites of Egypt, which I believe to be true.


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## Godfrey Daniel

Boris Karloff


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## widows son

I'll have to check that passage. I'm glad we agree on that point.


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## Godfrey Daniel

irrational


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## Godfrey Daniel

great deal of insight


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## widows son

Yes I Am working on a piece. Taxil has figured in and i plan on adding the protocols as well as  The illuminati, sacred geometry, and religious and secular persecutions, along with other Topics relating to anti masonry.  I'll have to check that book out too. The main focus of the work is to identify key points which are used in anti freemasonry and to help those brothers that are confronted with questions from people who are either staunch believers of the anti Masonic conspiracy and try and used disproven or manipulated facts, as foundation for a debate, or have come across it in passing and are  inquiring to get a level answer.


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## Godfrey Daniel

conspiracy theory


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## Godfrey Daniel

free


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## widows son

Recent archeological evidence suggests that the Israelites were the revolting peasant class of the Canaanites. The pottery and house hold ware between the two are identical, but pottery doesn't prove that alone. Canaanite temples were nearly identical to Solomon's temple and there are many examples in the lay out of them to show that. But as for Moses being an egyptian, it's a possibility. Ive read something where the author correlates the pharaoh Akhenaten to Moses and claims they were one in the same. We also know the Hyksos people had a hand in ruling Egypt as well and were of Semitic orgin.


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## CajunTinMan

Godfrey Daniel said:


> The fact that the Bible makes no mention of the pyramids hadn't occurred to me until this day.  You'd think it would have been mentioned, especially since Moses was supposed to have been initiated into the mysteries of Egypt.  Fact?  A French philosopher by the name of Edouard Schure' wrote an exhaustive book, _The Great Initiates, _in which (Chapter 20.  The Initiation of Moses in Egypt) he mentions records of the Egyptian priest Manethon for "the most authentic information regarding the dynasties of the Pharaohs, information now confirmed by the inscriptions on the monuments, affirms that Moses was a priest of Osiris."  He says Strabo attests to the same.  The impression I get from the entire entry suggests that Moses wasn't Jewish, but that the Jews were compelled to "regard the founder of their nation as a man of the same blood with themselves."  Talk about a conspiracy theory.


Is this the same guy that writes all the books on Masonry.


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## Godfrey Daniel

in-between


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## Godfrey Daniel

Neolithic


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## Frater Cliff Porter

Godfrey I don't understand your point and the two sense thing was meant to be funny.

Are you arguing that geometry has not been considered a moral science?

And second is a name that means "God Damn Them" a truly appropriate name for this forum?


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## Godfrey Daniel

Shucks


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## Godfrey Daniel

almond-shaped


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## widows son

All the items in the tabernacle/temple have astronomical import. I too agree the bible is full of this information, one just needs to look past the literal and more in the allegorical.


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## Godfrey Daniel

feel the heat


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## widows son

The tools are there for us, we just need to labor


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## Bill Lins

Godfrey Daniel said:


> What did Ray Wylie Hubbard intone:  "Some get spiritual cause they see the light, and some cause they feel the heat."



So mote it be!  :wink:


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## Godfrey Daniel

enjoy


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## BryanMaloney

Godfrey Daniel said:


> As we know, Hiram I was a Phoenician King and came from Tyre.  Another Phoenician settlement was in Byblos.  Byblos was a name given by the Greeks.  Prior to that, it was known as Gebal - home of the Giblim, or Ghiblim, or perhaps more familiarly, Giblites.  The stone-squarers.  They worshipped Baal.  What has been suggested as a prototype of Solomon's Temple is Melqart's Temple at Tyre, right down to the twin pillars at the entrance.  That makes sense, because as you say, the Hebrews were, at that point in history, a nomadic (and extremely warlike)  people, who mostly lived in tents.  Gebal, on the other hand, is an ancient city.  _Really_ ancient - having Neolithic origins.



Gebal probably means "the well"/"the source" + "God", from "GB" + "El"--"The well of God" or "The Source of God". "Ba'al" is not a name, but a word. It means "lord" or "master". Thus, every Phoenician town worshipped some "Ba'al" or another, but not the same "Ba'al".


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## widows son

Very true. In fact a lot Canaanite/phoenician rulers attached ba'al to the end of their name to show they were the lord of the domain, usually a  city state. Their gods were asherah, el and ba,al


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## Godfrey Daniel

Melqart


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## Frater Cliff Porter

A little off topic, but I have been to Byblos and what an extraordinary area.  Near by is Baalbek and some of the most extraordinary ruins in the world.  The temples there that still remain are to Jupiter and to Bacchus.  Local legend and some archaeological evidence suggest in Byblos and throughout the area was a mixture of different monolatristic approaches to Deity.


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## Godfrey Daniel

I don't eat giblets.


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## widows son

There are some good BBC documentaries of archeology in the holy land. If you YouTube : BBC archeology Israel you'll find two of them. A good watch, and 100% no conspiracy, just science at its best.


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## Godfrey Daniel

Mt. Hermon.


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## widows son

I think the reference with nimrod and the origins of masonry are due to the area between the Tigris and Euphrates is where most of things civilized emerged, including building. The one movie concerns the legitimacy of biblical archeology and discusses some theories as to how things were when king David ruled. They get into whether David was a regal king or a rural chieftain. The other concerns the history of the Israelites and their links with the Canaanites.


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## Godfrey Daniel

moderation in all things


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## widows son

It's interesting to hear that turkey was home to the earliest civilization, but i think a date 6500BCE is when the earliest date for sumer and akkadian civilizations. I'm not sure the name but the mountainous caves in turkey have been inhabited since 10,000 to 7000 BCE, making it the oldest continually inhabited area on earth. I think looking at Euclidean geometry as an operative geometry is a great point of view. Sacred geometry has been around for 1000's of years asks I don't see it dying out anytime soon.


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## Godfrey Daniel

So much depends


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## widows son

The fertile crescent I believe is the tern


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## widows son

I was also reading how trade from the mod east went as far as Gaul  before, during and after the roman empire. Tin was mined in Gaul, and many traders from the Levant travelled there to get it. It's always assumed that contact with Europe wasn't as wide spread as it really was.


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## Godfrey Daniel

about as far as it can go.


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## widows son

I thought the fertile crescent encompassed more area than that. I'm sure contact with other peoples around them was a constant.


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## Godfrey Daniel

encompass


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## widows son

What are your thoughts on the ancient mysteries?


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## Godfrey Daniel

Fertile Croissant


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## widows son

Lol pilsbury?


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## Bill Lins

Godfrey Daniel said:


> I'm still reeling from the mystery of the Fertile Croissant.



Should be a lot of them sighted Thursday!  :wink:


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## Godfrey Daniel

You have to want it, and you have to labor.


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## Godfrey Daniel

one who has not


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## widows son

The Egyptian had a form of tarot. The way we have tart cards today is a European invention, but the concept has been around well before the Templars. The Benbine table of Isis is a tarot concept. It is true that men who guard a secret, the secret is usually a fallacy. But does freemasonry do the same? In ways yes, however at any point when the mysteries were being practiced, the neophyte always had to prove himself before he was elevated to adept. The reason I believe is so the candidate can fully understand the import of what he is about to go through.  Everyone has the right and ability to know the true mystery of thy self, but proving that you are capable of responsibly doing something with it is where the trails and degrees come into play.


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## Godfrey Daniel

receive those transmissions


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## Frater Cliff Porter

> This is another attempt to explain my views on "ancient mysteries". The urban legend that quotes Einstein as saying humans use only 10% of their brain function is just that - an urban legend (even though it's sometimes easy enough to believe). But that said, under some conditions, we are clearly capable of much more than we realize. Maybe the Egyptians did levitate all those stones into place.



But Leman, Eric Berne, Rhoads and other famous men of the field of psychology do believe that something like 10 percent of the brain is used in conscious thought and that 90 percent is devoted to the subconscious.

There are also several symbols in Masonry that have remained potent throughout history to include the schools of Greece wherein the term mysteries is most often applied that relate directly to teachings designed to build upon an understanding of the subconscious.  The point within the circle being one of them.


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## widows son

The knowledge of thyself. Such a broad term. I believe it's knowing our place in the universe. We are on a insignificant little planet, orbiting an insignificant little star, in a galaxy among billions. However we are the pinnacle of creation/evolution. We are just babies in terms of how long we've been around and what are brains can accomplish. Imagine what we will become in another 1000 years. To know that we  are God and our consciousness is collective, is to know thyself. To see patterns in the universe and nature and ourselves is to know thyself.  To recognize that ultimate good triumphs over evil is to know thyself. To know we are full of raw potential and literally create our reality is to know thyself.


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## Godfrey Daniel

receive those transmissions


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## widows son

I've read to that the point within the circle refers to the deity. The point, the beginning, the circle the boundaries of consciousness, then returning to the original point.


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## Godfrey Daniel

serious study


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## widows son

Well to be honest, you are right, a life time, perhaps two is need to comprehend this subject but I think when it comes down to, all these symbols and philosophies, and texts and beliefs from ancient times doesn't amount to the one true fact. Simplicity. I believe it's important to know these subjects, especially as masons, but what are we comparing here? Other mens ideas. We are no closer to the truth than they were in those times of old. Their mind set may have been different but what has been accomplished? If I may ask, you are quite knowledgable in this field but do you know where, when and how to apply this knowledge? I think the key with all this geometry is that all things are geometric in their form. All things. And the pi and phi ratios are present in almost every aspect of nature. Davinci was obsessed with this, and is exemplified in his work. All in all what I am tryin to say is I try and see for myself what these philosophers say by studying the mysteries of nature and science, and death.


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## Godfrey Daniel

Minutiae
_
_


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## widows son

That sentence screams the truth.


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## Godfrey Daniel

widows son said:


> That sentence screams the truth.




How so?


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## widows son

I believe he's referring to the force of the people, and when improperly direct, can do more harm than good or be pointless and contribute nothing.


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## Godfrey Daniel

the Cube


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## widows son

The part where he talks about delineating a cube on a plane? If so yes, I agree.


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## Godfrey Daniel

And more


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## widows son

The universal purveyance. GAOTU.


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## widows son

Sorry to go off topic but a couple posts ago you were talking about the eye of horus being a symbol of the penal gland, which I wholly agree, as the Egyptians were the first to perform a primitive form of brain surgery. But anyway it reminded me of the painting on the roof of the Sistine chapel, we're God and Adams finger tips touch. Look at what God and his cherubim are in. To me it looks strikingly like a cross section of a human brain. Which leads me to believe that Michelangelo was hinting on God as intelligence/consciousness. JMO


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## Godfrey Daniel

Bubba Ho-tep


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## widows son

They'll find another date from their return lol. But   Look closely at their fingers. They aren't touching. If God is symbolized by being universal intelligence inside a universal brain then the fact that Adams finger and Gods finger are almost touching, enough it seem a spark if transferred from one to the other, to me means we only have put a spark of God. If we were anything more God and Adam would be holding hands!


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## Godfrey Daniel

Genesis


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## bjdeverell

It is a fascinating topic. If you get anything out of it; it is great brain training. Helps you to see patterns more easily, and you start associating things a bit differently than before. I don't necessarily buy into all of it, but it is great mental/philosophical exercise.


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## widows son

I know what your saying, it's true.


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## rhitland

I have not done the math on this sunflower I grew but dang sure looks like phi to me!


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## widows son

I believe in nature the fibbonaci sequence is multiplied by the previous number to get a number closer and closer to phi, but won't achieve it- the imperfection of nature.


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## Godfrey Daniel

raise rabbits


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## Godfrey Daniel

read and review


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## Bro_Vick

Another source you might want to consider is Phoenix Masonry has a great article with some links on the subject for you to look at:

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/sacred_geometry_the_flower_of_life.htm

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## Godfrey Daniel

Rest


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## widows son

I watches something where it's showed a human embryo developing in the early stages of division and, essentially was a 3D version of the flower of life. I believe it's called the seed of
Life when some of the lines in the circles are removed to make a 3D version of it.


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## Godfrey Daniel

imperfection


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## widows son

How so?


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## Godfrey Daniel

"a guy in a bar told me?"


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## Godfrey Daniel

widows son said:


> How so?



Just so.


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## widows son

S and D are close on my touch keyboard, and I got big thumbs. Not sure what you mean by other board. I think the fact that we know that nature is slightly imperfect means that we will continue to try and achieve perfection. Sometime in the future we will along with becoming star children


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## Godfrey Daniel

"imperfection"


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## crono782

> Give me an example of Nature's "imperfection".


Cancer?


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## Godfrey Daniel

crono782 said:


> Cancer?




A mutation.


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## crono782

It's hard to see nature's perfection when you're looking into the dying eyes of a relative with such a mutation as cancer or when trying to speak to someone with Alzheimers. Try watching a friend with ALS degrade quickly and painfully at the ripe old age of 26. Granted these are just MY views colored by my experiences. I'm sure those afflicted with the previous conditions wouldn't themselves imperfect, but I doubt they'd dub their condition as the pinnacle of nature's perfection either. Someone with a more empirical view of life might see it as the cycle of nature though.

EDIT: Hmm, as I re-read my written post, I realize I sound like those people who say there can't be a God because God wouldn't allow all the sickness and strife out there.


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## Godfrey Daniel

"God wouldn't allow"


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## widows son

Well If nature was perfect then there would be no need for evolution. Everything would already be at its pinnacle.  If we were perfect we would be impervious to disease, and we definitely wouldn't be warring with each other. I think we would also know all the answers to life. I think that we are a part of this imperfection, makes us  strive to try and be perfect of like God. But on the other hand, when I see things like the pho ratio in nature, it makes me think that nature may be perfect in the sense, that nature can be seen as God or an aspect of God, who IS perfect. I guess theres points from both sides that make sense


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## Godfrey Daniel

snapshot in time


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## Brent Heilman

Godfrey Daniel said:


> I didn't claim that Nature was _complete_.  We represent little more than a snapshot in time.
> 
> You won't get any argument out of me with respect to the imperfection of our species.  Arrogance, a manifestation of vanity, would have to be on the list of imperfections.




In the words of the great Carl Sagan:

[video=youtube;Ln8UwPd1z20]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln8UwPd1z20[/video]


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## Godfrey Daniel

Brent Heilman said:


> In the words of the great Carl Sagan:



Happy New Year !


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## widows son

Definitely. I love Carl Sagan. He had to of been one of the most valuable minds.


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## BryanMaloney

widows son said:


> Well If nature was perfect then there would be no need for evolution. Everything would already be at its pinnacle.



Evolution has no pinnacle. Evolution is change over time that does not have any underlying plan or goal. It doesn't even have to be related to "fitness" (which is not "perfection" or a "pinnacle"). Evolution can be entirely random. _Development_ is change over time according to a plan or goal. Unfortunately, popularizers and politicizers took hold of "evolution" in order to support their own agendas.


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## BryanMaloney

Godfrey Daniel said:


> A mutation.



The ability for such "mutations" to exist at all. If it is possible to fall from "perfection", then the entity in question is not perfect.


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## Godfrey Daniel

imagine


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## widows son

Evolution is the continuance of the those who can survive. Their genes pass on, while those who can't cope die off. Humanity is no exception. However if nature was truly perfect there would e no need for evolution because everything would already be the best it can be, what can evolve from perfection?


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## Godfrey Daniel

Canst thou by searching find


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## Godfrey Daniel

lost posts


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## widows son

I've posted that before I left, also im very lost now that ive been away on here.  And Ps Canada customs is a bit lighter than in America.


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## Winter

Lightlife said:


> This may help.


Posting in a 6 year old thread is usually considered bad forum etiquette, brother.  Usually it is better to just start a new discussion if it is a topic you want to discuss. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Winter

Lightlife said:


> OK, news to me.  If the admins don't want folks to post in old threads, I'd recommend they lock them.  I was previously told (not here) that it was bad form to duplicate topics.


There's no hard rule. But the admonision not to duplicate topics usually applies to current topics being actively discussed. Posting in a dead topic is called Necro'ing and it usually is fruitless because often the people that were talking on it aren't even on the forum anymore. No need to lock old threads. They just die a natural death. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Lightlife

Post deleted.


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## Winter

Lightlife said:


> Post deleted.


Deleting your posts is called Nuking and is also bad form. Lol

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## David612

When something is dead just let it stay dead, Necromancy never ends well.


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## Winter

David612 said:


> When something is dead just let it stay dead, Necromancy never ends well.


I'm just a single necromancer trying to raise a family! 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## David612

Winter said:


> I'm just a single necromancer trying to raise a family!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I stand corrected! 
Best joke I’ve heard this Halloween.


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## Lightlife

Winter said:


> Deleting your posts is called Nuking and is also bad form. Lol



Yep, you are a PM.  Putting it here was wrong, leaving it here was wrong, and deleting it was wrong.


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## Winter

Lightlife said:


> Yep, you are a PM.  Putting it here was wrong, leaving it here was wrong, and deleting it was wrong.



It's OK, brother! Nobody's going to get that upset. It's just considered netiquette. But people do it all the time anyway so take anything I say on the matter with a grain of salt. And my being a PM has nothing to do with the conversation. Not sure why you had to bring that up.


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## Warrior1256

Winter said:


> Posting in a 6 year old thread is usually considered bad forum etiquette, brother.


When I first joined the forum I'd see years old threads on topics that interested me and post to them to revive them. The only reason that I stopped is that I used up all the old threads of interest.


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## jermy Bell

And here I couldn't get past algebra. Lol !


----------

