# My Concerns regarding Masonry



## Eric Edwards (Jul 4, 2012)

I have to say that I do believe Christ's suffering and Resurrection is the only way to salvation 

since He said. I am the way the truth and the light and NO man comes to The Father 

but by me. This does not mean I run around telling people they are going to hell or disrespect other people in their religion. 

I want to join your fraternity badly. I have done countless hours of 

research and soul searching. OF COURSE I have come across some very weird 

info on masonry most of which is probably false. I have a friend who is a 32Â° 

mason who signed my petition. I am not going to run around and ask everyone in a 

lodge what their beliefs are but I just want assurance that Masonry can co-exist 

with Christ. I am a Christian first and then a mason should I be raised one. 

I also believe salvation is by grace through faith alone. I do however think that 

faith produces works and that evidence of faith is found in works. The epistle of 

James clearly states faith without works is dead. I have one final concern which I 

hope you can answer... In my degrees will I have to take vows to other gods that 

I do not believe in? I have read that to be a shiner you must take a vow to Allah etc...

Thank You So Much,

Eric


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## scialytic (Jul 4, 2012)

What did your friend say?


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## JJones (Jul 4, 2012)

Sorry, but doesn't Allah mean God?  That's always been how I've understood it anyhow.

Either way, did you turn in your petition yet?  You will be, or should have been, asked if you had a faith in deity.  I've been a MM for eight years and haven't ever encountered anything in the Blue or York Rite degrees that's contrary to mine, or anyone elses, faith.


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## BroBill (Jul 4, 2012)

Check www.texasyorkrite.org/commandery/ to see if that site clarifies the topic for you.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Jul 4, 2012)

The first steps in Masonry only require one to believe in Diety. There is no right or wrong Diety. Nothing is "forced" on you.

In the upper degrees of York Rite Masonry, at a certain point there is a clarification as to which Diety as BroBill just pointed out.


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## Bill Lins (Jul 4, 2012)

Eric Edwards said:


> I have to say that I do believe Christ's suffering and Resurrection is the only way to salvation
> since He said. I am the way the truth and the light and NO man comes to The Father but by me. I just want assurance that Masonry can co-exist with Christ. I am a Christian first and then a mason should I be raised one.
> 
> I also believe salvation is by grace through faith alone. I do however think that faith produces works and that evidence of faith is found in works. The epistle of James clearly states faith without works is dead.



My beliefs are exactly the same as yours.



Eric Edwards said:


> In my degrees will I have to take vows to other gods that I do not believe in?



I can speak only in regard to Masonic (blue) Lodges and the Scottish Rite when I say absolutely not. We only require that one who wishes to become a Brother among us believes in a Supreme Being- we don't care what you call him, and _your_ Deity is the only one you must show your allegiance to. As I do not belong to the York Rite nor the Shrine, I have no knowledge of their requirements.


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## Eric Edwards (Jul 5, 2012)

The York Rite seems cool. I like the name Knights Templar of Texas.

Thank you for the posts so far. I saw pictures of red fez hats with islam written across them. Allah may mean God but Allah is not the God of the Bible as they are diametrically and dogmatically opposed to one another at the fundamental level. I also saw a video by a "ex mason" who said that at some level you had to drink wine from a skull and vow something about the sins of the owner being on your head should you ever break a vow. The thing is for a outsider it makes it a hard decision to make because 
you want to make sure the lodge is in alignment with your religious conviction. I am from texas and conservative and while I do not hate people...I don't regard Islam in high esteem. I see it as a geo political agenda masked in a religion.

My friend basically told me almost all the guys in his lodge were born again Christians which made me feel good.

I have no problem saying you can slit my throat, pull my tongue out by the root etc..
I understand that is symbolic and is teaching the value of keeping loyalty to the brotherhood. I read that the UGLE took that out of the vows as well. I don't know if that translates over to Texas and the U.S. or not but either way I think I am okay with the vows.

I guess another question would be let's say you want to become a shiner or advance to 
a very high level but you discover in the vows something your not ready to vow. 
Is it okay to back out or would you be expelled for deciding against that degree?

To answer your question future brother-Jones I have one signature so far. 
My friend basically said my signature will get other guys to help you. 
I need to go back to lodge on a stated meeting night for dinner and 
see if some of the officers I met a month or so ago will sign as well.

I have a good idea what I will be getting in the blue lodge and that's fine with me.

I must admit the Hiram Abiff ritual reminds me a lot of baptism which sort of 
bothers me but I am sure being a non-member there is symbolism I am not 
aware of. I got really curious about masonry after seeing the special on the 
discovery channel. I have even read most of morals and dogma and another 
book called The Masonic Myth which is a pro-mason book written by a brother.


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## JJones (Jul 5, 2012)

99% of what info you find on the internet is misinformation, if that puts you at any ease. 

You won't get expelled for having concerns about your vows but it could halt your advancement until you're ready to accept them.  I can't speak for the Scottish Rite, but I'll point out again that I haven't found any of the vows or anything questionable so far in my Masonic career.  I'd be surprised if there was anything diabolical in the Scottish Rite though.


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## Eric Edwards (Jul 5, 2012)

Thank you. How long have you been a mason and are you a member of any of the bodies? I am sorry if my questions are offensive in any way and you guys probably get asked these type of things all too often but... I am just trying to lay my reservations to rest as anything I do I do @ 100%


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## Blake Bowden (Jul 5, 2012)

Check your email, that should help.


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## BroBill (Jul 5, 2012)

If you are turning to the internet for some of your research, I recommend the web pages for the Grand Lodges (each state has one) and perhaps Lodges of Research. 

You can search on "Grand Lodge of ........" (fill in the state). 

I understand the instinct to turn to the internet, but I always recommend against it. It tends to create false expectations. I always recommend visiting a lodge a few times and meet the brothers; spend time with them and talk to them about your interest.


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## Cigarzan (Jul 5, 2012)

BroBill, you stole my thunder!  Eric, go ahead and petition if that is what you really want, confident that nothing in Masonry will conflict with your firmly held beliefs.  As an aside, your beliefs are mine.

I think nothing has hurt the Fraternity as much as the internet.  I was raised pre-internet and had absolutely no idea about the workings of the lodge.  I joined because of the men I knew and respected who were Masons.  It was a truly enlightening experience.  Nowadays guys google everything and know all the ins and outs before even darkening the door.  Beside this, it can cause false impressions about what Masonry is...making good men better, period.  It's not about magical, mystical or occult knowledge that so many seem to grasp after and become disillusioned after their initiation.

Masonry is about building.  Building yourself into the man you _can_ be.


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 5, 2012)

Eric Edwards said:


> Allah may mean God but Allah is not the God of the Bible as they are diametrically and dogmatically opposed to one another at the fundamental level.



I know Arab Christians. These Arab Christians come from families that have been Christian since before the fall of the Western Roman Empire--that is, before the foundation of Islam, and before any English-speakers became Christian. Do you know what word they use when they want to refer to "God" as we English-speaking Christians refer to Him?

They use "Allah", because that is the word that Arab-speaking Christians have been using long before Mohammed was even born.

"Allah" means "God" (as in "The God", distinct from any old "god"), and it has meant "God" to Arab-speaking Christians before any English-speakers used the word "God" to refer to Him.


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Jul 5, 2012)

If you are looking for a boogie man to the Christian faith you will not find one.

Yet, there are things that some Christian churches take umbrage with.  You should be aware of these and go in with both eyes open and more importantly an open heart.

1.  You can not proselytize except to live your life in a manner and form that is Christian while you are in lodge.  You can not proselytize at a bank, in the armed forces, working as a law enforcement officer, etc.  But many Christian groups focus in on this and claim that Masonry is anti-Christian because of it.  

2.  In lodge you will pray with men regardless of their faith.  I pray with Buddhist, Muslims, Jews, Druze, the occassional neo-pagan, etc.  There is no prayer wherein we say..."Oh, Buddha, etc."  But there isn't a prayer where we say "In Christ name, amen" either.  If your church claims this is yoking you to an unbeliever, then you might be in trouble.  I personally searched the Bible and found that this one guy named Jesus didn't seem to avoid people of other faiths (think lady by a well)...but some churches take a different slant.

3.  The Hiramic legend is reminiscent of a resurrection.  It is not a resurrection, but certainly maintains that flavor.  There is no promise that Masonry gets you any kind of salvation whatsoever.  But, there are statements that you should be good, pure, and moral and that these things will be judged by God.


There is a difference between the teachings of Christ and what Christian churches profess...some additions, some deletions, etc.  But if your church community is important to you and they have a strong feeling on Masonry or its practices...you might be forced to choose.  I was.  I am denied membership in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod because of my Freemasonry.  It was a hard choice, but I made it.

I don't think every man is going to make the same choice and its okay to choose your church.  

Ask your pastor how he feels if its going to matter to you down road.

Me personally, I won't be a member of a church that does not trust my decisions or bars membership in groups based on false information or superstition.  But, I would also support a man that says...I don't care why my church says so...they don't like Masonry so I am going to make life a little easier and avoid it.


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## scialytic (Jul 5, 2012)

Technically Allah is the same God as the God of Abraham. The diversion is between Isaac and Ishmael (from a historical perspective). You should also note that Islamists do believe in Jesus, just not that died for our sins, etc. Not to get too theological, but wanted to point out that they refer to the same God, but differ based on other historical events.


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## Eric Edwards (Jul 5, 2012)

scialytic said:


> Technically Allah is the same God as the God of Abraham. The diversion is between Isaac and Ishmael (from a historical perspective). You should also note that Islamists do believe in Jesus, just not that died for our sins, etc. Not to get too theological, but wanted to point out that they refer to the same God, but differ based on other historical events.


 
In that light they are the same God. In the light of the person hood of God they are not. God is love as expressed by Christianity.

Prophet of Doom - Islamic Quotes - Fighting


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## Michael Hatley (Jul 5, 2012)

That website is garbage.  You'd be well served taking a class at your local community college on Islam, and for that matter world religions in general.

Masons may swear their obligations on the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, and the Bhagavad Gita.  If you go into Masonry believing that one of those other religions are inherently evil, chances are you will eventually run into trouble.  Masonry is at its heart universal.  We speak of the Great Architect, not Jehovah, Allah, Yahweh, Shiva, or anything else specifically at Blue Lodge.

Bottom line is you will never be compelled to swear allegiance to a God other than the one you believe in, or for that matter do much discussing of religion at all.  Freemasonry is not a religious organization.  In Texas, our members are predominantly Christian.  I feel pretty confident that the next largest group are deists, which is what our founding fathers were, and those folks rarely identify themselves as such and don't wear it on their shirtsleeve.  In my experience none of our members do - religion and a man's relationship to his God is his own affair outside of very neutral sort of prayers.  Again, universality.


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## scialytic (Jul 5, 2012)

I guess my point is that _you_ are the determining factor. An idol is not an idol until _you_ make it an idol by idolizing it. A statue of Buddah or Krishna is not an idol to me. Your faith and belief is what makes you a Christian. Noone can change that but you. I am ignorant in true way of these things, as I am trying to start this journey, like yourself, so I should have remained silent. Best wishes and I hope you find the assurances you are looking for.


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## chrmc (Jul 5, 2012)

This is a good topic, and as already said by other other I can only echo that there is nothing in masonry that will interfere with your religion or obligation to Christ - whether you are very religious. 
Masonry requires a belief in deity, but leave it completely up to you what that means. Which is one of the things I really like about it personally. 

My best suggestion would be go to visit some lodges in your area and get a feel for them. Masonry is also to a large extent a fraternity and a brotherhood, and it's important that you fit in with the people in your lodge. 

And lastly remember that there are no stupid questions, so ask away. There are plenty of people here who will be happy to answer and help you.


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## Eric Edwards (Jul 5, 2012)

I think I understand what most of you all are saying. My friend told me unless your a Christian you probably aren't in 
the lodge I am thinking of joining. He also repeated my belief that Christ was the only way to salvation. I will admit 
I have wondered at times whether or not another religion or all religions could be a road to God. I however after much 
careful consideration decided that if that was the case there was no point in Jesus dying. I don't think God sent him 
to the cross because He wanted a good story for a certain group of people. I do not believe that someone who has 
never heard the gospel will go to hell when they die. I think Christ will offer himself to them upon or after death.

“the gospel was _preached_ also to those who are _dead_” (1 Peter 4:6)

I think God judges only by the light we have. In that light I guess I am a bit universal however I honestly think 
many of the worlds religions are created by the evil one to lead men astray. I mean if all religions lead to God 
why did Jesus claim to be the only way?  If we believe the bible to be our set of plans or your VSL then we believe 
that every word is God's divine word. If all religions lead to God why did God become angry in the Bible about 
idol worship? After all wouldn't it just be a way for those men to act out their moral beliefs etc...

If all religions lead to God why would God send a messiah to Israel who already had a covenant 
with him and establish a new covenant? 

That covenant being the stone which the builders rejected. Christ being the cornerstone 
of the faith upon which ALL other living stones are built.  

 I know religion is not discussed in lodge but since this is a website 
I suppose we can discuss such things. I guess I am also curious when you look at the definition of religion 
masonry seems to fit it. Many of the writers also seem to suggest it to be one.

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion and its teachings are instruction in religion. -Albert Pike 

"The religion, then, of Masonry is pure Theism"
Albert Mackey [33rd degree Mason and Secretary General of the Supreme Council of the thirty third degree Scottish Rite] 'Lexicon of Freemasonry' p 404
"The meeting of a Masonic Lodge is strictly a religious ceremony. The religious tenets of Masonry are few, simple, but fundamental. No lodge or Masonic assembly can be regularly opened or closed without prayer"
T. S. Webb 'Masonic Monitor' p 284
"The truth is that Masonry is undoubtedly a religious institution, its religion being of that universal kind in which all men agree"
 Albert Mackey [33rd degree Mason and Secretary General of the Supreme Council of the thirty third degree Scottish Rite] 'Textbook of Masonic Jurisdiction' p. 95


Were these men who many masons revere speaking out of line? 

I know I am probably raising questions that may annoy someone but 
I really want to know what insiders say not outsiders.


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## cemab4y (Jul 5, 2012)

Eric Edwards said:


> I have to say that I do believe Christ's suffering and Resurrection is the only way to salvation
> 
> since He said. I am the way the truth and the light and NO man comes to The Father
> 
> ...



Masonry is NOT a religion.  Of this you can be certain! I have been a Mason for nearly 30 years, and I study comparative religions. There is absolutely no conflict between Christianity, and Freemasonry.  This being said, Masonry is composed of men from many different and wildly varying religious beliefs. If associating with men from a whole "rainbow of faiths", presents a problem to you, then you should not pursue Freemasonry. 

There is no salvation of any kind, in Freemasonry. Do not have any concerns in this regard. 

In the degree ceremonies, you will be required to swear an oath. This oath will in no way conflict with the duties which you owe to God, your family, your neighbor, or your country. Just like when you join the Army, you swear an oath, or when you marry, you swear an "I do".  You will take this oath on the Volume of Sacred Law. For a Christian, this will be the Holy Bible (Old and New testaments, most likely the King James Version). 

The Shrine is not a Masonic organization.  Membership in Freemasonry, is prerequisite to joining the Shrine. If you choose to join the Shrine, you will take an oath on the Volume of Sacred Law for your faith. Please see Home - Be A Shriner Now


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## Michael Hatley (Jul 5, 2012)

I think “revere” might be too strong a word really, but perhaps some do.  Admire perhaps, or be intrigued by I think may be closer. 

Pike for example was a learned theologian – for the time.  He was also influential in the KKK, so not exactly perfect by a good, long stretch.   I think most folks who know their literature, mason or not, would admit that his contemporaries Thoreau and Emerson were really a cut above Pike in the area of world religion, if they have read all three men in detail.

But it is true Pike was very influential in Freemasonry, specifically in Scottish Rite.  A lot of what goes on in those degrees would have been truly illuminating – in 1870 or so.

Today we all have access to many resources Pike did not.  And for that matter, than medieval Christians did.  Even men of very modest means can do a little (real) research (and I don’t mean web searches…books, and librarians – they don’t just shelve books) will show you how the modern day  Bible got put together and that journey alone ought to have you asking deeper questions. 
I would advise you to do what the Pikes, the Thoreaus, and what any theology student does: read primary sources.  Read the Bhagavad Gita.  The Koran.  The Torah.  Confucius.  The Tao.  Socrates.  Plato.  Aristotle.  Spinoza.  Aquinas.  Bacon.  Hobbes.  Etc etc etc.  Let go of this idea that the devil is behind all these other approaches and views of the world, it is the first step toward bigotry and that is direct truth.

There is a word that I think applies to many masons – seeker.  Many of us are that.  That means having an open mind.  Noone will try to change your own path.  But by learning the other paths you are bound to see that almost all the religions of the world have some universal truths that connect them all together.  Love your neighbor as yourself.  Be good to people.  Work to be a kind, upright, and honest man.  These essences are the epitome of freemasonry, not one particular creed or approach.

Good luck.


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 5, 2012)

Eric Edwards said:


> In that light they are the same God. In the light of the person hood of God they are not. God is love as expressed by Christianity.
> 
> Prophet of Doom - Islamic Quotes - Fighting



And what do you say to the Arab Christians who call Him "Allah" and have done so for centuries, long before Islam was invented?


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## Star Mztyk (Jul 5, 2012)

Eric...

   You said ~~I think God judges only by the light we have.~~ From  what I am reading you have already been brought to Light in your beliefs and opinions. If I interpret correctly, you wonder or want us to tell you if you have all the Light you need. I was taught to judge not least I be judged....so I dont know what you need. I know that any Mason enters as an apprentice...to learn things. Like subdueing his passions. If you want to improve yourself as a Mason ....Ask to be one. My hobby... makes most on here cringe....because I am an astrologer. When I was a kid I developed a strange fascination with Benjamin Franklin ....to the point that I wanted to be like him. I dont necessarily agree with Pike, Mackey, Webb or anybody.....because they sure as Hades will not agree with me. The High and Mighty that showed up for the birth of Jesus ....had been looking for several years for this King of Kings. The Magi....were not just Traveling Men .....they were astrologers.

   Now I address the forum....The Magi were Three Grand Masters in every sense of the Word. Following a Light...Star....same difference.


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## Eric Edwards (Jul 5, 2012)

Star Mztyk said:


> Eric...
> 
> You said ~~I think God judges only by the light we have.~~ From  what I am reading you have already been brought to Light in your beliefs and opinions. If I interpret correctly, you wonder or want us to tell you if you have all the Light you need. I was taught to judge not least I be judged....so I dont know what you need. I know that any Mason enters as an apprentice...to learn things. Like subdueing his passions. If you want to improve yourself as a Mason ....Ask to be one. My hobby... makes most on here cringe....because I am an astrologer. When I was a kid I developed a strange fascination with Benjamin Franklin ....to the point that I wanted to be like him. I dont necessarily agree with Pike, Mackey, Webb or anybody.....because they sure as Hades will not agree with me. The High and Mighty that showed up for the birth of Jesus ....had been looking for several years for this King of Kings. The Magi....were not just Traveling Men .....they were astrologers.
> 
> Now I address the forum....The Magi were Three Grand Masters in every sense of the Word. Following a Light...Star....same difference.



very enlightening reply.


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## Eric Edwards (Jul 5, 2012)

BryanMaloney said:


> And what do you say to the Arab Christians who call Him "Allah" and have done so for centuries, long before Islam was invented?


 
Jews call Jesus Yeshua so...makes no difference in my opinion. 
"invented" I agree.


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 6, 2012)

Eric Edwards said:


> Jews call Jesus Yeshua so...makes no difference in my opinion.
> "invented" I agree.


 
But Jews aren't Christians. You have stated multiple times that Allah cannot be the God that Christianity recognizes. Thus, is it not reasonable to conclude that you believe that Arab Christians are not actually Christians?


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## Plustax (Jul 6, 2012)

seems like some are trying to "split hairs" on what is a christian, what is the right name for God, Allah, Dios, Gott, ..... we can go on and on..... 
i recommend not to use google because there are too many crazy interpretations of Masons out there. Best thing to do is to find one (elder or Senior) mason because he has been around awhile and has heard just about all the misconceptions of masonry. it is what I did and that was 26 years ago that I became a mason.


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## anthonywilson (Jul 6, 2012)

Eric Edwards said:


> I have to say that I do believe Christ's suffering and Resurrection is the only way to salvation
> 
> since He said. I am the way the truth and the light and NO man comes to The Father
> 
> ...


 
Eric, I can give you the sterotypical speech and all Masons give, but I won't. Best thing to do is to vist the Lodge that you plan on joining and get to know everyone. Share your thoughts with the Master of Lodge and he can help you with your questions. One thing I will say is that Masonary is subjective and everyone has their own view of it, so be careful if you read Masonic books by Pike, Macoy, and so on. One thing that might help is this link: Membership Center | The Grand Lodge of Texas A.F. & A.M. when you click on it, scroll down till you see "Between Friends." This is a series of audio recordings that our Grand Lodge made to give to people who are thinking about joining. Hope this helps.


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## Eric Edwards (Jul 6, 2012)

I was speaking messianic Jews but no I do not conclude a Arab Christian who calls God Allah is not a Christian.

I personally refuse to call God Allah but it's no so much about the name it's more about the statement

"There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet"  

That and the belief that Jesus came back down from the cross because angels took him off of it. 
This means I am relying on my goodness...In which case I am screwed... and so are you by the way.


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## anthonywilson (Jul 6, 2012)

Is this a Masonic forum or a religious forum? Eric, your personal beliefs won't come under attack in a Masonic Lodge because Masons aren't supposed to discuss religion (or politics) at Lodge, that's one the unwritten rules, so others won't be offended.


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## Bro. Brad Marrs (Jul 6, 2012)

anthonywilson said:


> Is this a Masonic forum or a religious forum? Eric, your personal beliefs won't come under attack in a Masonic Lodge because Masons aren't supposed to discuss religion (or politics) at Lodge, that's one the unwritten rules, so others won't be offended.


 
Brother Wilson is correct about your personal beliefs not coming under attack. In Texas however, it's actually a written rule. It's against the law to discuss partisan politics and sectarian religion in Lodge. These topics divide, and typically do not promote peace and harmony.

"Masonry goes hand in hand with religion until religion enters the field of sectarian feud, and there it stops; because Masonry seeks to unite men, not to divide them."

-Joseph Fort Newton


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## jwhoff (Jul 6, 2012)

Belief in deity, your choice, and your immortal soul is a prerequisite to freemasonry. 

A good healthy dose of "The Golden Rule" is a tenant we subscribe to.  We're not in the business of telling a man what to believe in ... but we demand that he believe in the aforementioned requirements.

Be careful to remember the Golden Rule.  Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Precisely, that means neither you or I have the right to tell a man how to believe.  The same goes for whom you should cast a vote.

That's sometime heavy sledding.  But not everyone is cracked up to be a mason.  You've got several choices to make.  Choose wisely my friend.


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## VHN5150 (Jul 6, 2012)

I will just add, that I as well am Christian,  and believe the same way that you do. I have applied what I have learned in masonry to my life, and have to day, my relationship with my Lord, Jesus Christ,  has only increased. I feel wonderful about my decision,  love my Lodge, my Brothers, and will continue to serve Jesus Christ with all my heart and soul. 
We've all been where u are my friend, pray, and you shall receive your answer.
God Bless man.. and good luck!
Bro.  Field


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## anthonywilson (Jul 6, 2012)

Bro. Brad Marrs said:


> Brother Wilson is correct about your personal beliefs not coming under attack. In Texas however, it's actually a written rule. It's against the law to discuss partisan politics and sectarian religion in Lodge. These topics divide, and typically do not promote peace and harmony.
> 
> "Masonry goes hand in hand with religion until religion enters the field of sectarian feud, and there it stops; because Masonry seeks to unite men, not to divide them."
> 
> -Joseph Fort Newton


 
Thank you Brother Marrs, please forgive my ignorance of the GLoT by-laws.


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## Eric Edwards (Jul 6, 2012)

So question why the NE corner. I know that islam circles their black box with the door on the left counter clockwise 
starting at the ne corner but I was wondering what the sybolism behind ne is. You probably can't answer me....But anyhow.


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## Bro. Brad Marrs (Jul 6, 2012)

anthonywilson said:


> Thank you Brother Marrs, please forgive my ignorance of the GLoT by-laws.


 
Your point was and is valid, Bro. I was just giving it more umph! :beer:


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## Bill Lins (Jul 6, 2012)

Eric Edwards said:


> So question why the NE corner.  I was wondering what the sybolism behind ne is.


 
You'll find out during your initiation.  :wink:


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## BryanMaloney (Jul 7, 2012)

Eric Edwards said:


> I personally refuse to call God Allah but it's no so much about the name it's more about the statement
> 
> "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet"



That would be reasonable if and only if the word "god" were distinct in Arabic from the same word that is used as a name ("Allah"). They're not distinct words. In Arabic, a literal meaning would be "There is no god but The God," etc. One might as well insist that we English speakers never use the word "god" to refer to the Trinity, since it was used by pagans long before it was used by Christians.


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Jul 7, 2012)

Eric your post seem similar to an anti-Mason I have met that post at Ephesians 5-11 and I wonder, due to the nature of your post if your goal is to find out about Freemasonry or to "witness" to what you believe are a group of men who are not living within their Christian obligations if, in fact, they are Christians who are Freemasons.

Many have written on the religion of Freemasonry.  It is not uncommon for men to refer to religion as a big "R" and a little "r".  Pike has referred to Masonry as the religion in which all men can agree.  These references should be taken as the most generic of terms and Mackey's reference was to the fact that if Masonry had a dogma that was designed to encourage faith, it did not go beyond acknowledging the existence of Deity.

If you are here under a false pretense and you are trying to "witness" and have lied about your interest in Masonry; I don't think that is either Christian or Masonic and although your zeal and love for God might have led you to this decision, the ends do not justify the means and you will eventually be discovered.


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## osiris (Jul 7, 2012)

I'm a newly raised MM but have been researching the subject of freemasonry which consequently is the one of the broadest subjects out there but from what I get out of it is that there is one true God who exists in every culture even though he has many name. Freemasonry in my opinion is an echo of the old mystery rites that were performed in the middle east, Europe , china and even north and south America


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## hilal200 (Jul 7, 2012)

I'm a muslim does that mean I can't be a free mason?


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## scialytic (Jul 7, 2012)

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> Eric your post seem similar to an anti-Mason I have met that post at Ephesians 5-11 and I wonder, due to the nature of your post if your goal is to find out about Freemasonry or to "witness" to what you believe are a group of men who are not living within their Christian obligations if, in fact, they are Christians who are Freemasons. [...]
> 
> [...] If you are here under a false pretense and you are trying to "witness" and have lied about your interest in Masonry; I don't think that is either Christian or Masonic and although your zeal and love for God might have led you to this decision, the ends do not justify the means and you will eventually be discovered.


 
I bet that kind of thing happens pretty frequently...shame. Eric, you mentioned that you have a close friend that is a 32nd Degree SR Mason, you should probably seek more counsel from him or have dinner at the Lodge you are considering. That may be the best way to get your specific concerns addressed.


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## Traveling Man (Jul 7, 2012)

hilal200 said:


> I'm a muslim does that mean I can't be a free mason?


 
Unless your faith prohibits it, then no would be the answer.


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## Eric Edwards (Jul 8, 2012)

scialytic said:


> I bet that kind of thing happens pretty frequently...shame. Eric, you mentioned that you have a close friend that is a 32nd Degree SR Mason, you should probably seek more counsel from him or have dinner at the Lodge you are considering. That may be the best way to get your specific concerns addressed.


 

To answer am I here to witness...Not at all actually. 
I find it easier to ask tough questions here than at a 
lodge I am petitioning because I would hate my 
questions to make me seem like I think ill of 
your craft. I also get a diverse group of men from 
many lodges here to respond. I have found your 
responses to be truthful and sincere.

I really am joining lodge 438 in arlington,tx my friend is 
Bobby Washburn whose entire family are masons and 
actually most of them are pastors. My posts may sound 
anti-masonic (which I am not) because some of the concerns 
I brought up are echoed by some anti masonic groups on the net.

I actually bring these issues up to masons because I know in 
Texas most of you are probably believers in Christ. I really wanted 
to see how your faith and masonry coincide. 

I was actually thinking of this prior to getting on here today.

My conclusion so far is this... 

Christianity as taught by Jesus is complete and wanting in nothing. 
Christianity as expressed by modern society and most churches is correct 
in doctrine but wanting in practice and practical expression.  


For example...

Helping your brothers, helping widows, 
giving time to give back. 

It is my honest opinion one could belong to a church 
and if they fell on hard times the church in most churches 
would simply pray. 

That's wonderful. God can solve all things with prayer.

I think if a man was a member of the lodge and fell on hard 
times the brothers would help in any way they could. 

That might even mean financially. 

I think this goes back to where Jesus said if your brother is cold 
and you tell him be warm but do not give him a blanket that's not 
really love. 

I think masons are practicing this by being doers and not just 
hearers of the word. 

*I see masonry as a way to assist me in the practice element of faith.*


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## scialytic (Jul 8, 2012)

Eric Edwards said:


> To answer am I here to witness...Not at all actually.
> I find it easier to ask tough questions here than at a
> lodge I am petitioning because I would hate my
> questions to make me seem like I think ill of
> ...


 
Then you are in the same boat as me. I asked similar questions when I was researching the Craft while deployed in Baghdad. My ultimate conclusion is that it is entirely up to the individual what Light they receive. I expect that the "koinonia" enhances this relationship, as fellowship is only deepens your relationship with God. 

You come across as an interesting fellow. Feel fre to PM me. I'd love to meet for lunch and chat. Especially since it looks like we'll be going through a lot of study in the coming months. I wish you the best on your Journey!


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Jul 8, 2012)

Well then you are in a good place Eric and I hope that your Masonic journey is an extraordinary one.

To the Muslim man asking about the Fraternity.  I have sat in lodge in Muslim countries with rooms full of Muslim Brothers and here in Colorado with some Muslim Brothers.  All good men with a faith in God are welcome.


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## Eric Edwards (Jul 9, 2012)

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> Well then you are in a good place Eric and I hope that your Masonic journey is an extraordinary one.
> 
> To the Muslim man asking about the Fraternity.  I have sat in lodge in Muslim countries with rooms full of Muslim Brothers and here in Colorado with some Muslim Brothers.  All good men with a faith in God are welcome.


 
I see you wrote a very well reviewed book. 

Graham - pm me your contact info. :thumbup:


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## polmjonz (Jul 9, 2012)

Well unfortunately it sounds that during search for compatibility you may have stumbled upon some of the processes of ritual within masonry.  I truly hope that you choose to forget them prior to participating in any ritual.  The anticipation and trying to figure out where you are and what is next takes away from the overall experience and can detract from the lessons that are being presented.  Good luck on your journey and let us know when you decide.


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## cog41 (Jul 9, 2012)

"He would become an accomplished Mason must not be content merely to hear, or even to understand the lectures: he must, aided by them, and they having as it were, marked out the way for him, study, interpret, and develop these symbols for himself."


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## hilal200 (Jul 9, 2012)

How can I join the brotherhood?


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Jul 9, 2012)

Locate a local lodge in your area, find out their meeting times, introduce yourself around and then ask to join if you feel that you and the lodge are a good fit and they feel the same, you will receive a petition and the process starts from there.

Can I ask why you would like to join?

and

Where do you live, city/state?


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## hilal200 (Jul 9, 2012)

I live in the sultanate of Oman. In muscat ..and I would like to join because I think I can contribute and help other members..I'm a commercial pilot


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## Eric Edwards (Jul 9, 2012)

I can only say this...If I am approved. I will probably become one of the louder voices for masonry to the world.

I think I could explain things in a way that more people would want to join and remove much suspicion since 

I approached my decisions with sincere concerns and some heavy research.


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## sands67 (Jul 9, 2012)

Eric...As many have suggested that although there is good info on the internet, but there is an awful lot of misinformation about Freemasonry. I would not be afraid to ask questions once you start your journey as there should be no brother who would not want to answer. If anything your questions may serve as a refresher for many who may have forgotten the answers to what you are asking There is no such thing as a silly question.  That is where you will find your best information.  With respect to your question of the question about the Shriners it is not a degree. It is a volunteer organzation run by and supported by Masons to help burned and crippled children. There is no obligation to join and no issues if you don't.


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## jwhoff (Jul 11, 2012)

Sounds like Brother Porter read his last book!  He's got a nose for that sort of thing you know.

:sneaky2:


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## towerbuilder7 (Jul 14, 2012)

Eric, I wish you well in your quest for membership in this Brotherhood.   I also wish you well in your continued quest for knowledge.   Your concerns about what you may have seen and/or read on an Anti-Masonic website are valid.   I grew up Roman Catholic, as 5 generations of my family before me in SW Louisiana did; so, I heard all of the old Anti-Masonic banter from my Mother and a few other *uninformed* relatives before I joined.   I did what the Brothers here are suggesting that you do-----consult the Brothers in the Lodge in which you seek membership.   I looked at the *character* of Men in the Lodge in which I sought membership, and each of them happened to be Christian, Family Oriented, Community Minded Individuals who were seeking to become BETTER MEN.  (I am a member of a Prince Hall Affiliated Lodge here in Houston, Texas)

When I learned about the CHARACTER of the Men in the Lodge, *THAT* is all I needed to know before submitting MY petition.   It appears by some of the questions asked regarding the Ritual that you want answers to some things before its proper time.   Masonry provides the test that one cannot study for prior to Initiation-----it is a test that will allow you to focus on that with which you are presented, and you will have the opportunity to choose whether or not to to MOVE FORWARD and apply the study of our tenets and teachings to your life ON YOUR OWN FREE WILL AND ACCORD.  If you do not feel comfortable with something you hear or are asked, you will have an opportunity to leave.   It's that simple.   But, judging from the faith in GOD that you profess, I do NOT see your beliefs being diametrically opposed to anything you will see or hear.   

Last point that I want you to consider-----I want to strongly echo the sentiments of the Brethren that have commented before me-----while you are going through your Degree Work, I would strongly suggest that you rely *ONLY *on the teaching of the *BROTHERHOOD,* and *stay off of the Internet for that period of time*.    Allow the knowledge to enter your "attentive ear", and be patient.  Trust me, the Brothers in the Lodge in which you seek admission will ensure that you are taught the information needed to possess proficiency in the Degrees you are pursuing.   The Internet has *some *valuable information,(and plenty which is NOT) but you must ALWAYS CONSIDER THE SOURCE OF THE INFORMATION.   If the information is provided by some RECOGNIZED MASONIC BODY with which your Lodge is affiliated, such as the Grand Lodge of Texas, or the Research Lodge, that would be all that I would ingest for the moment.   

If you are as dedicated as you tell us, you should have ENOUGH on your plate with what your Lodge will have waiting for you in regard to your Memory Work to keep you busy for a while.......*BE PATIENT*, Brother.   Two things that any good Mason pursues during his LIFELONG investigation of the Mysteries of Man and World are the *PURSUIT OF TRUTH*, and* KNOWLEDGE OF SELF*.   Some of the questions you had on your posts will be answered during Initiation or at other points in your Degree Work.   If we told you the answers ON AN INTERNET FORUM, we would be doing a HUGE disservice to your Lodge as well as YOU, and the Man who answered any question on this Forum related to the Ritual wouldn't be in adherence to the obligations that we all took and hold as solemn.   

Please keep us informed on your progress.   I will be praying for your progress in Masonry, as you seek the LIGHT Masonry can provide*..........Fraternally, Bro. Vincent C. Jones, Sr., Lodge Chaplain, Bayou City Lodge #228, Houston, Texas, Prince Hall Affiliation, Free and Accepted Masonry, Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas

*


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## Eric Edwards (Jul 14, 2012)

very good reply thank you for your sincerity.


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## Cigarzan (Jul 15, 2012)

Eric wrote: I really am joining lodge 438 in arlington,tx my friend is 
Bobby Washburn whose entire family are masons and 
actually most of them are pastors. My posts may sound 
anti-masonic (which I am not) because some of the concerns 
I brought up are echoed by some anti masonic groups on the net.

Cigarzan:  Then by God stay off the stinkin' internet and TALK to your friend.  You don't know us from Adam.

Eric wrote:   I will probably become one of the louder voices for masonry to the world.

Cigarzan:  I'm not so sure Masonry needs loud voices.


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## Alhambran (Jul 15, 2012)

BryanMaloney said:


> I know Arab Christians. These Arab Christians come from families that have been Christian since before the fall of the Western Roman Empire--that is, before the foundation of Islam, and before any English-speakers became Christian. Do you know what word they use when they want to refer to "God" as we English-speaking Christians refer to Him?
> 
> They use "Allah", because that is the word that Arab-speaking Christians have been using long before Mohammed was even born.
> 
> "Allah" means "God" (as in "The God", distinct from any old "god"), and it has meant "God" to Arab-speaking Christians before any English-speakers used the word "God" to refer to Him.



Just to add further clarification, "Allah" is Arabic for "Yahweh" - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and God the Father of the Christian Trinity.


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Jul 15, 2012)

> Just to add further clarification, "Allah" is Arabic for "Yahweh" - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and God the Father of the Christian Trinity.



If there is only one God how can humans change that reality by assigning to God different names.

It only makes sense that in different cultures and in different times God is known by different names.  

We should worry less about what others call God and more about how we demonstrate a love for God in the way we live our lives.


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## JMGibson (Jul 17, 2012)

I found this site to be helpful.

A Page About Masonry: Questions: Difficult Questions About Freemasonry


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## jhale1158 (Jul 22, 2012)

Being a mason is a rewarding thing. As far as religions, you will meet many Freemasons that have a different religious belief than yourself. I have met many here in Oklahoma that believe in A God, not a specific God and I love it. As long as Religion is not brought up in lodge, I see no reason why the religions AND Freemasonry can't co-exist


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## T.N. Sampson (Aug 28, 2012)

Alhambran said:


> Just to add further clarification, "Allah" is Arabic for "Yahweh" - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and God the Father of the Christian Trinity.


I've noticed several references to Allah in this thread, but I think a key fact has been missed.

Both the Bible and the Koran define the 'god' to which they refer.  Those definitions form what we know of those beings, and point to two different entities.  Essentially, Allah, as defined by the Koran, is not the same being as is God/Yahweh/Elohim/etc as defined in the Bible.  I think the main reason that the Masonic phrase "GAOTU" was adopted was to paper over such differing definitions in the interest of harmony.

Context and intent determine the proper understanding of 'Allah.'  When a Christian uses 'Allah' to refer to the God of the Bible in his Arabic prayers, he is on proper linguistic and religious grounds.  But he does not mean the Allah of the Koran when he does so.  When a English-speaking Christian uses 'Allah' in the Shrine initiation, for example, he is referring to the god of the Koran, not the God of the Bible.

Such 'conflicts' occur elsewhere.  The Muslim, Mormon and Christian may all pray to 'Jesus,' but they are, in fact, praying to three different entities, as each has defined the term differently.  In religion, as in all other topics, we have to use common defintions to communicate effectively.

So, 'Allah' is indeed the Arabic for 'Yahweh,' but only under certain conditions.  It is a mistake to assume that they are different names for the same God.  Cordially, Skip.


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## BryanMaloney (Aug 28, 2012)

If you truly believe that Freemasonry merely "papers over" important issues and differences, why did you bother to become a Master Mason? "Paper over" means that it is wrong--that you disagree with it. If you disagree with a fundamental principle of Masonry, why did you join and why did you stay with it? After all, your profile states that you are a Master Mason.


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## Traveling Man (Aug 28, 2012)

T.N. Sampson said:


> Cordially, Skip.



Is this the same "Cordially," Skip Sampson that's the friend of Ed King? My Linguistics processor says it's 99.7% confident!


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## T.N. Sampson (Aug 28, 2012)

Gentlemen:
1.  To 'paper over' means to "gloss over, explain away or to patch up (as major differences or disparities) expecially in order to maintain a semblance of unity or agreement.  (Merriam-Webster).  The idea in the last part of that definition was behind my use of the phrase.  No insult was intended.

2.  I am not a Mason.  The profile apparently auto-filled the Master Mason part, which I have since corrected.

3.  I doubt seriously that Ed King would refer to me as a friend, but I do believe he knows who I am.  Cordially, Skip.


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## Traveling Man (Aug 28, 2012)

T.N. Sampson said:


> Gentlemen:
> 1.  To 'paper over' means to "gloss over, explain away or to patch up (as major differences or disparities) expecially in order to maintain a semblance of unity or agreement.  (Miriam Webster).  The idea in the last part of that definition was behind my use of the phrase.  No insult was intended.
> 
> 2.  I am not a Mason.  The profile apparently auto-filled the Master Mason part, which I have since corrected.
> ...


Skip: 

Thanks for the "Miriam" (sic) Webster definition. 
(Don't be deceitful here, that was your full intent; to be divisive, as sure as you are Skip Sampson) That's what you came here to do, as always...

Now how about a "proper" introduction to the Gentlemen here? How about a link to your web site?

Why don't you state why you want copies of any mentoring guides?
 I'm sure we would all like to know. You do realize that this NOT the place for you to "proselytize" don't you?
 Please tell the Gentlemen (Brethren) why Bro. Ed King wouldn't consider you a "friend"?
We all would like to know. "Cordially" Skip?


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## T.N. Sampson (Aug 29, 2012)

Traveling Man said:


> Thanks for the "Miriam" (sic) Webster definition.  Don't be deceitful here, that was your full intent; to be divisive, as sure as you are Skip Sampson) That's what you came here to do, as always...


You are welcome, both for the definition and for pointing out the spelling error (since corrected).  I would offer the view that were deceit my goal, I would not have used my own name on this forum.  As to divisiveness, I do not see how a non-Mason can cause division among Masons.



> Now how about a "proper" introduction to the Gentlemen here? How about a link to your web site?


I do not have a website.  As to introductions, what would you like to know?



> Why don't you state why you want copies of any mentoring guides?


Since you ask, it is for the same reason that newly-made Masons ask for it:  to learn about Texas Masonry.  My view has long been that if you want to know what a group teaches, read their own materials.  Primary sources are always much more accurate than the opinions of others, don't you think?


> You do realize that this NOT the place for you to "proselytize" don't you?


I do indeed.



> Please tell the Gentlemen (Brethren) why Bro. Ed King wouldn't consider you a "friend"?


Since I do not know his standards on 'friendship,' I would not presume to make such a claim without positive assurance on his part.  Aside from that, I do not recall any significant personal interaction with him upon which either of us would base a claim to friendship.  Cordially, Skip.


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## Traveling Man (Aug 29, 2012)

T.N. Sampson said:


> Since I do not know his standards on 'friendship,' I would not presume to make such a claim without positive assurance on his part. Aside from that, I do not recall any significant personal interaction with him upon which either of us would base a claim to friendship. Cordially, Skip.



That's an understatement if I ever read one!

You came here to gather material for your anti-Masonic preaching didn't you? Come on now, be honest with that at very least least! I still ask why you don't give us a full introduction and you real motives for being here?


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## JTM (Aug 29, 2012)

He hasn't done anything wrong here, and he's been fairly cordial.  I don't have a problem with anti-masons being on these forums as long as they treat folks with respect and aren't here to cause problems.  If ya'll two want to continue, then take it to private messages


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## Traveling Man (Aug 29, 2012)

I don't have a problem with him being here either. I just want him to be honest and forthright is all. I think it's only fair to state what his full intentions were


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## Brent Heilman (Aug 29, 2012)

I just looked at it as a heads-up thing. Until a rule is broken he will be welcomed and remain.


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## Brotimpa62 (Aug 29, 2012)

Brothers please remember we lead by example.


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## Ali (Sep 10, 2012)

Greetings brothers and friends. I found this thread to be interesting for several reasons. I am  a MM who happens to be a Muslim and have taken my obligations on the Holy Quran. Although I find several ways that Masonry relates to Islam, as I'm sure it relate to any religion, there is a reason why we choose not to discuss the topic of religion at lodge. I would rather focus on the cement that unites us. The only reason one must declare a belief in deity is so that an obligation would be binding. Other than that Masonry is not a religion or substitute there of. I think bro. Michael Hatley & cemab4y seem to hit the nail right on the head with their wise council for you. Although I appreciate your admiration and respect for masonry, I not not necessarily agree with your views. I would advise you to carefully consider your journey into masonry if you have trouble harmonizing with men from different faiths. As obvious by this thread, one way I can tell a Bro. Mason from a non-mason is the way they speak of other religions. Again, please consider carefully as we all did, if we are worthy and well qualified.


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## Traveling Man (Sep 10, 2012)

Thank you Brother Ali, how very succincly stated. If I recall properly this was supposed to have been hashed out; oh, say 150 years ago?


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## MarkR (Sep 11, 2012)

Ali said:


> Greetings brothers and friends. I found this thread to be interesting for several reasons. I am  a MM who happens to be a Muslim and have taken my obligations on the Holy Quran. Although I find several ways that Masonry relates to Islam, as I'm sure it relate to any religion, there is a reason why we choose not to discuss the topic of religion at lodge. I would rather focus on the cement that unites us. The only reason one must declare a belief in deity is so that an obligation would be binding. Other than that Masonry is not a religion or substitute there of. I think bro. Michael Hatley & cemab4y seem to hit the nail right on the head with their wise council for you. Although I appreciate your admiration and respect for masonry, I not not necessarily agree with your views.* I would advise you to carefully consider your journey into masonry if you have trouble harmonizing with men from different faiths.* As obvious by this thread, one way I can tell a Bro. Mason from a non-mason is the way they speak of other religions. Again, please consider carefully as we all did, if we are worthy and well qualified.


 Well said brother.  I'm a college professor, and fairly recently I had a young man in my office for an academic advising session.  I have Masonic symbols clearly displayed in my office.  This young man is a Muslim.  He asked me about the symbols and Freemasonry.  During the course of the discussion, of course the subject of men of different faiths being able to gather together as brothers came up.  He said "I could never call a Jew my brother."  I simply said, "well, then Freemasonry is obviously not for you" and we wrapped up that discussion.


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## Michael Hatley (Sep 11, 2012)

When you get right down to it, it is rarely the actual religions that make men feel so distant from one another.  Politics is at the root of that.


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Sep 11, 2012)

Hey Skip,

Long time no see.  Man since you and the boys from E5-11 were all over LRUS...creating fake posters, editing content and all the other devious things you guys pulled in the name of Christ; I had not seen you in a while.

Brethren I have been an e-Mason since I was a Freemason.  I watched Skip and his buddies kill one of the most successful Masonic forums in existence at the time.  They turn every discussion into a defense of Masonic principles.  Men can't post without ending up in some discussion as to how they are both a Christian and a Mason and then Skip and some of his boys will follow will start with the same old rhetoric and eventually your members here at MoT will leave because they did not come to defend their faith or Freemasonry.

Skip and his friends have lied and fabricated in their war on Freemasonry because in their version of Christianity the ends justify the means.

I recommend you BAN him and don't look back.  

My two cents based on experience.


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## T.N. Sampson (Sep 11, 2012)

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> Long time no see.


Good to hear from you, too.

BTW, I was banned in 2008 and LRUS survived until late in 2011, so I'm not sure why you'd give me credit for its demise.  Personally, I believe I was one of the reasons it was an interesting place, with Theron being one of the other key reasons.  In the end, though, it just died of apathy.  Cordially, Skip.


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## Ali (Sep 11, 2012)

Bro. Mark. I'm pleased to hear that you display Masonic signage openly in your office. I too am very open about what I stand for. I agree with you that masonry is probably not for the student that came to seek your advise. Our fraternity is sacred and we must do all we can to preserve its innocence. As for my personal beliefs regarding this matter I can speak for the lodge I attend and say with confidence that there is not a single brother at my lodge whom I would not trust with my life. Regardless of their religious beliefs.


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## bofahs (Sep 12, 2012)

Your position is perfectly stated, and perfectly in accord with Masonic principles.  Freemasonry deliberately and emphatically places itself in a position well down the list of your principle responsibilities.  You will not find any discussion of religion or politics in a Lodge - these topics are forbidden.  You will, however, be continually encouraged to pursue your own faith.  You will NOT be asked what that faith is - that is your own business.  
There are no "other gods" in Freemasonry.  We hope to make your relationships with your fellow man better, but every Mason will attest that the foundation of all of that lies within you and your Church.


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## T.N. Sampson (Sep 13, 2012)

bofahs said:


> There are no "other gods" in Freemasonry.


Could you expand upon that thought?  I'm not sure what you mean by it.  Cordially, Skip.


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## dhouseholder (Sep 13, 2012)

T.N. Sampson said:


> Could you expand upon that thought?  I'm not sure what you mean by it.  Cordially, Skip.



Not to put words in his mouth, but I am sure he means that Freemasonry does not have a "god-entity" of its own. We do not have a specific deity that we are required to worship. Each brother brings his own personal concept of a Supreme Being; and when we pray, each brother prays to _that_ Supreme Being.


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## Phre-massen.nash (Sep 13, 2012)

If you look at Religion, and the main goal of each person and their view on their Religion.  You will notice that all Religions have the same goal in mind.  To obey the caommandments, laws, or the will of G-d. YHVH, G-d, Allah, Adonai all are names refering to the same.  We just call upon him by a different name.  If you look at the Tower of Babel, when all the people woke up and spoke different languages.  G-d understood them, even if the next man didn't.

If He did not want us to call Him by different names, then why did He seperate us as a people and form us to speak different languages?  And if you look at things within Masonry without going through them, you may not get the proper meaning.  It's just likes soneome not being a Mason on the outside looking in, they interpret things as they see them, not as they are supposed to be interpreted

Adonai- the Hebrew name for G-d 
Allah- The name of G-d among Muslims (and Arab Christians)
YHVH- The Hebrew Tetragrammaton representing the name of G-d
G-d-The creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the Supreme Being


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## C_Cabra (Sep 14, 2012)

Eric Edwards said:


> I however after much
> careful consideration decided that if that was the case there was no point in Jesus dying. I don't think God sent him
> to the cross because He wanted a good story for a certain group of people. .


  Why not? We're talking about the flesh here. Not only did Jesus not die (according to the Christian beliefs) but whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.  While the death of his flesh might mean salvation and a great deal to mere mortals why wouldn't God send him to the cross in order to provide salvation to a certain group of people?

I don't really buy into much of the ideology and dogma of the Christian religion. I have a hard time with organized religion in general but I do believe in God and I believe that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all worship the same God.  That is my understanding.  I also see that within the Christian religions the Southern Baptists think the Catholics will go to hell, The Catholics have issues with the protestants, and so on and so forth. Heaven is such an exclusive place it's a wonder anyone gets in... I was raised Southern Baptist and I was led to believe if I listened to rock and roll and danced I was on the path to hell. It was preached from the pulpit and in Sunday school... Three services a day on Sunday, again on Wednesday and bible study every night... I'm only two pages in but I would say if you are having this much trouble with the fact that you might fellowship with the "unclean" then this is probably not for you.  You seem to want someone to say that we're all Christians and welcome to the good ole' boy club. That might have been true at some point due to geography and religious predominance but in theory that has never been Freemasonry if not in practice. It might still be true somewhere... but it isn't true everywhere...


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## bofahs (Sep 14, 2012)

Part of the original post, asking what to expect, was the question, "In my degrees will I have to take vows to other gods that I do not believe in?"  [underlining is mine] The answer is, of course, no, he will not have to take such vows to "other gods" - there is no such thing in Freemasonry. 
The gentleman had already, in his post, expressed a perfect commitment to his faith, and seemed to be concerned that the fraternity would expect him to change or dilute or amend that faith.  I was simply, using his own words, attempting to assure him that there will be no such expectation.  
Critics of the fraternity of Freemasons often insist otherwise in their attempts to discourage participation.   They mention Baphomet, or Ba'al, or Lucifer, and warn that initiates will be required to acknowledge these in addition to, or in preference over, their own faith.  Nothing could be further from the truth, and the truth is, each man comes to the fraternity with his own faith, and Freemasonry does what it can to encourage and support him in that faith.  
That's what I intended to communicate, sorry if I didn't make it clear.  Of course, I remain happy to continue any discussion of this fraternity which has served me so well.  Thanks.


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## JTM (Sep 17, 2012)

eric, the other brethren have addressed your concerns.  mine is: did you write your original post?  the formatting was confusion.  how come you chose that format?  

other than that, they are wonderful questions and I hope you continue down this path.


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## daddyrich (Oct 1, 2012)

Does anyone here know how things panned out for the original poster?


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## rpbrown (Oct 1, 2012)

I will say a couple of things here.
 (1) I don't believe in religion. I believe in the God, Jesus, and the teachings of the Bible. Religions are what has had this world so messed up for centuries. Look at the differences in say Baptist and Catholics. Those are religions but have very different beliefs.
(2) If you want to surf the net, look up religion, or christianity or any other religion. There are nasty things written about them all.
(3) The associate pastor of my church is a mason. 

So in short form, no you do not give up your christian (or any other belief) values to become a mason. If this were so, I would have never become one myself. And BTW, I am a Scottish Rite 32 and there was no drinking of wine or blood from a scull.


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## MarkR (Oct 1, 2012)

rpbrown said:


> And BTW, I am a Scottish Rite 32 and there was no drinking of wine or blood from a skull.


If you're referencing Brown's The Lost Symbol, from what I understand he got that from the 33Â° ritual of the obsolete Cerneau Scottish Rite.


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## mrmarcust (Oct 1, 2012)

Not reading 10 pages of replies, so if it's been answered, my bad for repeating. I'm a member of the Grand Lodge of Texas. I am a member of Scottish Rite, York Rite and the Shrine. None of which will obligate you against your beliefs in God or the Bible. No blood or wine drinking. No professing or even obliging in any other God other than who you profess your trust in. And your obligation is between you and your God with the Lodge or body as a witness. That's it.

I have a pastor who asks me about masonry EVERY TIME he sees me. He asked a question that put a lot of his concerns to rest when I answered yes. He asked if I ever found something I'm masonry that was against my Christian beliefs would I walk away? I told him yes, but I haven't yet, so what's that tell him.


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## jvarnell (Oct 1, 2012)

mrmarcust said:


> Not reading 10 pages of replies, so if it's been answered, my bad for repeating. I'm a member of the Grand Lodge of Texas. I am a member of Scottish Rite, York Rite and the Shrine. None of which will obligate you against your beliefs in God or the Bible. No blood or wine drinking. No professing or even obliging in any other God other than who you profess your trust in. And your obligation is between you and your God with the Lodge or body as a witness. That's it.
> 
> I have a pastor who asks me about masonry EVERY TIME he sees me. He asked a question that put a lot of his concerns to rest when I answered yes. He asked if I ever found something I'm masonry that was against my Christian beliefs would I walk away? I told him yes, but I haven't yet, so what's that tell him.



I have not replyed on this thread till now but want to say you are right.  Some of the of the people that don't understand what you have just said is because they get cought up in the translation that goes into the word God.  Some faiths even have a proabition on using anyother word than what is in there dogma.


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Oct 1, 2012)

In our YR and SR bodies there are communion like aspects where we drink wine and I am certain that although in your area they might use grape juice or skip the degree, the SR definitely has this aspect to it and I am likewise certain the degree of the temple does as well.  In either case, its enough that it is not Christian communion.  Never purports to be and never tries in anyway to usurp it.  

The greatest gift any god to include the Christian one ever gave us is a mind.  We ought to use it.  A Christian man can go through the degrees and if he sees, hears or experiences nothing he believes in conflict with his faith; we should respect him and his faith enough to say "Well okay then."


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