# anti masonry



## widows son

I recently had a convo with someone and they threw the proverbial anti Masonic book at me, but thankfully I had a good background with anti masonry, as I started my Masonic career against freemasonry, which is kinda odd but nonetheless my opinion changed after I got the facts straight, but in the back of my head I couldn't help but think that the so called conspiracy is growing, which might compromise our fine order, what do you guys think the best approach is to handling this problem?


----------



## BryanMaloney

Truth ultimately defeats lies. That is all that is necessary.


----------



## MarkR

If the anti-Masonry of the early 19th century didn't do it, the little bit that's going on now certainly won't.  The few anti's out there are certainly not getting any wide-spread public attention.


----------



## BroBill

If it's a topic you want to read up on, I found two reasonably neutral books that discuss the "how" and "why" of anti-masonry that provide some really good insight as to how it got started and why it won't seem to go away.  I'd recommend- in this order-

1. Morgan: The Scandal That Shook Freemasonry by Stephen Dafoe
2. The Red Triangle: A History of Anti-Masonry by L.D. Cooper

I did write my opinions on these books under the "Education and Literature" forum if you want to read my summaries of them.  

BroBill


----------



## Ashlar

This will sound odd , but I truly enjoy anti-Masons . I do ! They talk as if they actually know what they are talking about , when it is one anti Mason passing on the mistaken mis-quoted/out of context ritual and writings of Masons such as Pike that originally came from other anti-Masons  . They further the mystery of Freemasonry . They make us look so much more important than we truly are in that we actually run the world . They attribute all this power to us that  does not exist .

We have a few good , active brethren who joined because of anti-Masonry . These Brothers wanted to see if the stories were true , came in found no merit in the anti-mason's argument and became serious , active Masons . 

Also , I enjoy them for pure entertainment value . They make me laugh . I spend hours a week on anti-Mason forums , no matter what you tell them their minds will not be changed . They call us liars and make the claim we are not "high enough in rank" to know the real secrets of the 33rds (and HIGHER) , yet even though they are on the outside of Freemasonry they do know the "secrets" that we "porch Masons" do not . Funny stuff .


----------



## widows son

I agree brother it is hilarious but don't you guys think that the Internet poses a problem? I mean the 19th century is far different than now in terms of information being spread


----------



## Brent Heilman

I don't think it makes any difference whether it is now or the 19th century. Yeah, the internet makes it easier to reach people, but then again their target audience is small and probably not much different than it was in 19th century America, proportion wise. 

I just watched America's Book of Secrets on H2 the night before last. I sat through it (first time seeing it) and shook my head in agreement with some of the things and laughed at some of the anti-masonry folks like Jim Marrs and the other guy they had on there, Alex King or something. Some of the stuff they spouted off was ludicrous at best. These guys go on and on repeating things that have been proven to be out right lies but yet they continue to perpetuate it.


----------



## jvarnell

widows son said:


> I agree brother it is hilarious but don't you guys think that the Internet poses a problem? I mean the 19th century is far different than now in terms of information being spread



I think the internet is good if we put out as much info as we can that is good qulity like the Ben Franklin things that the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts.  Make it easy for them to find both sides.


----------



## BryanMaloney

widows son said:


> I agree brother it is hilarious but don't you guys think that the Internet poses a problem?



No. Lunatics on the internet have no more influence than lunatics off the internet, except among other lunatics.


----------



## widows son

I think grand lodges need to step up and start retaliating in terms of information, we're a lot more knowledgable on our subject than these lunatics


----------



## JJones

> _I agree brother it is hilarious but don't you guys think that the Internet poses a problem? I mean the 19th century is far different than now in terms of information being spread_



Nope.  There's so much factual information on the internet that's easily available to non-masons that I'm glad there so many kooky theories out there that throw people off.


----------



## JJones

Double post


----------



## martin

I got into a fight in innisfil Ontario with 2 punks my family was in the car we were waiting in a coffee place and 2 guys star been mouthy  saying fucking Freemasons I gonna kick ur ass so I don't say anything but soon they star getting close to my car my wife and 4 year old son got scare so I got out and beat the shit out 2 punk , now I know as a mason I should b more calm but when comes to my family I get mad anyways I hope would never happend again


----------



## widows son

Violence isn't the answer unless you are physically being attacked


----------



## widows son

But I'm glad some sense got knocked into them!


----------



## HKTidwell

When I started looking into Masonry back in 2003 or so most of the internet was Anti-Masonic.  Today it is night and day, I attribute it to the Brothers, Lodges, and Grand Lodges becoming more visible.  It is getting better and will continue to do so as each of us live our lives and the younger generations becomes active.


----------



## widows son

But I think in someway the Internet might be preventing the younger generations for coming through our doors, that generation is lost without the Internet and in some areas it's becoming a downfall tithe craft


----------



## MarkR

widows son said:


> But I think in someway the Internet might be preventing the younger generations for coming through our doors, that generation is lost without the Internet and in some areas it's becoming a downfall tithe craft


If that's your experience, then something is seriously wrong with the way your Lodge is using the internet.  The single biggest reason for the resurgence of my Lodge (we currently have a progressive officer line with nobody over 40 years old, and not a single PM in the line, with young brothers sitting on the sidelines waiting for a chance to get into the line, and petitions coming in with regularity) is the establisment of a web site.  

You're correct; the first place today's young men go for information is the web, and in Mankato, when they do, our Lodge web site is the first thing that comes up on their search.  They read, they use the email link to contact us, then they get to know us and petition.


----------



## widows son

Then I need to express this issue, I wouldn't say that our grand lodge isn't doing enough, the area I'm from is very small, but I meant on a wider level that all grand lodges need to step it up including yours, they should all be on the same page


----------



## widows son

Also in America this problem shouldnt be happening or should be on the decline due to the fact that Canada Has 68 million ppl and America has what 380 million ppl. Info gets  passed around more efficiently due to your population. Believe me I'm not taking offense to anything, but if America is supposedly the "best country in The world" then shouldnt its values follow the same line as well? Mason or non mason?  The question was on anti masonry and I'm expressing the concerns and issues that are happening in my country/area, you can't blame the grand lodge for these issues because they were inherited by my father, your father, everyone else's father and grandfather and so on. They kept masonry such a secret that it was made to be more than what it is. Now im not saying freemasonry is nothing to turn your cheek at because it is something and the. Some but the problem lies in the fact that on the 40s 50s 60s freemasonry was a father-son pass along which is one of the reasons that it is on the decline. I'm am so happy that your lodge has many people coming thru your doors because the value which makes us brothers will live forever, but you can't blame the grande lodge for the lack of people coming thru the doors, like I said the Internet has I profound effect on the new generation a basic search of freemasonry will show up more anti material than pri


----------



## BryanMaloney

The internet is not under anyone's control. No coalition of grand lodges can change this.


----------



## widows son

No but grand lodges can put info out to combat the crap that's out there


----------



## BroBill

But true anti-masonry is fairly insignificant.  If there was an organized group that was actually doing things - such as proposing legislation for the purpose of harming or eliminating masonry- then I would agree the Grand Lodge(s) should get involved.  Right now the anti-masons are small groups or individuals  that spread mis-information mostly, I believe, as a way to boost their own relevance.  If Grand Lodges tried to take on the individuals and groups, it would a) bring more attention to the anti-mason(s), b) create the impression the anti-masons are on to something, c) bestow some legitamacy on the anti-mason arguments by virtue of the GL public reaction, and d) use up enormous time and resources that we need them to be using to promote masonry and help our lodges.  

Anti-masonry in history actually did have political sway- even political parties.  There was actually legislation proposed that would have harmed masonry.  Anti-masonry on that level needs the direct intervention of our Grand Lodges, not internet traffice where you have no real idea who it really might be putting forth rubbish.

The strongest "anti-masonry" program is us. We are in the community and we are in contact with our friends, neighbors, co-workers, and their families. It is how we live our lives that will provide the strongest argument against anti-masons. At least, in my humble opinion.


----------



## jleesmith1999

I find it funny anti masonry groups think they know everything saying we are in the NWO getting ready to take over the world with our lord satan and we dont know it because we are not high enough in our degrees ive gotten on them groups on facebook and say yeah we already had the world we gave it back to much stress


----------



## Ashlar

widows son said:


> No but grand lodges can put info out to combat the crap that's out there


 

There is no need to "combat" the crap out there because (as already stated) those who believe the anti-masonry garbage is insignificant and in a very small minority . I tend to give people more credit and believe they have more common sense than the average conspiracy theorist . If someone believes that we worship the devil , eat babies , drink blood and howl at the moon then let them . It says more about them than it does about us and they are someone we do not need in our Fraternity because they can not think for themselves , they have no reasoning skills and in some cases are actually paranoid to the point that it is unhealthy .

Grand Lodges and individual Masons already do a good job of putting the truth out there about Freemasonry by posting what Freemasonry REALLY is on their web sites . And it is nearly impossible to combat the antis' because we can not disprove a negative anyway .  Also anti's love to move the goal posts continuously , an anti will post a quote from Pike/Hall/Mackey or ritual out of context and we post the entire quote that proves them wrong , they merely change tactics or come at it from a different angle . Believe me , I have spent many , many hours on conspiracy forums , some of what they say is so far out there that it is laughable and does not need to be refuted because they do a great job of making themselves look like idiots . You can even prove that some anti-Masonic author is a liar and your average anti will tell you that he just may be a liar , but he is lying for a good cause . Does that make any sense to you ? Is this really something we can "combat" . No , because they do not fight on a level playing field .

If Grand Lodges were to "combat" anti-masonry , they would be continuously posting to their web sites because the lies of the anti's are continually changing , evolving , twisting to the point that it would have to become a full time job .

BUT If you really want to see good Masons "combating" the anti's , then go out and purchase a copy of "Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry" by Art de Hoyos & S. Brent Morris . Or just look it up on line , it is there to read for free to anyone who wishes to know the truth .


----------



## widows son

I will check that reading material out, I think both you guys are right, it probably would make it look suspicious if grand lodge retaliates against small conspiracy groups


----------



## Virgin Islands Brother

In all honesty, the anti masons can be helpful. I was anti masonry before I met one of my brothers in law. He is 32 degree mason. The level of his charity floored me. I could not bring myself to believe he worshipped Satan. I still did ask. He almost looked hurt by the question. (I feel ridiculous now)

So I continue my Internet searches, then YouTube. YouTube had so many negatives and also some outstanding positives. I realized the positives held a common thread, while the negatives were all over the place.

I remember it clearly, when I realized masonry was a good thing, my friend, from middle school days forward, called and said he found the lodge for us. So began our journey. 

I joined with faith that God would not allow me to stain my soul, but I was still nervous. I made this sentiment very clear to my soon to be brothers. 

Not wanting to ruin the experience, I stopped viewing anything that had to do with rituals and read more. Then I stumble on the Taxil Hoax and the last bits of anxiety disappeared. 

Rational people will eventually find us.


----------



## widows son

Our paths started the same brother, like you said the anti theories are all over the place where the positives are coherent and rational, I'm glad to see there are other who were in the same position as me


----------



## JJones

widows son said:


> No but grand lodges can put info out to combat the crap that's out there


 
I visit conspiracy sites on a regular basis for amusement, let me tell you that as masons we can't (and shouldn't) bother trying to set them straight.

Masons trying to dispel while ideas are usually accused of trying to perform damage control or blatant lying.  To be honest though, I don't know what the problem is anyhow.  As Freemasons, should we care that people think we are low level Illuminati who worship the devil (without knowing it) and serve shape-shifting reptilian alien overlords?  If so, why?  People that think things like that sure aren't Mason material anyhow in my humble opinion.


----------



## Ashlar

JJones said:


> As Freemasons, should we care that people think we are low level Illuminati who worship the devil (without knowing it) and serve shape-shifting reptilian alien overlords? .


 
This is what I mean by trying to disprove a negative , it is useless . They say we worship the devil , and when we say we do not and ask them to point out in the ritual where the devil comes into play they will move those goal posts and say we are worshiping the devil without really knowing it . So we then ask them "how can I be forced to worship anything without knowledge of it because when I am praying in lodge I am praying to my Lord and Savior ?"   they will then move the goal posts again and say we are not high enough in rank . A Mason will tell them "well I am a 32 second degree SR Mason" , they will say "You have to be a 33rd to truly know  !" . Then a 33rd comes along and says "Not in the 33rd degree we don't !" they then move those goal posts yet again and say "Well it is in the 96th degree !"

You simply can not disprove something that only exists in the minds of an anti .


----------



## widows son

Someone spray painted on our lodge " eat shit devil fuckers" it really made me angry, I don't worship Satan, I just want to help people


----------



## jleesmith1999

The other day while coming out of our lodge some mexican kids come up to us and say when are you illuminati going to take over we all looked at those kids with a look get out of here one of the older guys walked to his car pulled out a lighter that looked like a gun those kids ran off se all had a good laugh at that


----------



## widows son

I don't think that would of helped to change the way they look at us, prob made it worse


----------



## jleesmith1999

Yeah I know but the way they took off it was funny


----------



## Tony Uzzell

It's always easier for the ignorant (I'm thinking about the spray-paining incident widow's son mentioned) to break things down than it is for people to actually learn what is reality. Just like it's easier to knock down the sand castle than it is to build your own.

TU


----------



## widows son

I cant explain how angry I was, one of the brothers was almost in tears, and he said "why can't people just keep to themselves, they have to stigmatizes us then vandalize us too"


----------



## MarkR

As has already been stated, no matter what you tell them, they give you one of two responses: "you're not high enough in Masonry to know what really goes on" or "even if I was right, you wouldn't tell me, because you've taken an oath to cover it up."  With that "heads I win, tails you lose" argument confronting you, all you can do is smile, say "have a great day" and walk away.


----------



## CajunTinMan

I am new to this forum Brothers and this is just my opion but as Matthew 5:14 says: You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.  
The only way we are going to combat all the anti Masonic rhetoric out there is to live lives that are examples to others.  We can't answer all the lies. We can only hope to shine through them.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

CajunTinMan said:


> but as Matthew 5:14 says:


Jesus was referring to his disciples; that is, Christians.  Why would you apply that verse to Masonry, which accepts men of all faiths?  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## Brent Heilman

Why not use it? While the verse in the Bible was referring to Christians it could also be used as an analogy to say that if we just do what we say we do and continue in our works of charity then some will see that what is put out there as us worshiping the devil or works will disprove that. 

Besides if the Bible lessons taught are for Christians only then how are we supposed to use It as a tool to save the lost and dying sinner? If these teachings are for Christians only then they would not apply to the lost.


----------



## CajunTinMan

Why not Skip?  If I want people to know that I am not satanist then as a Christian I must shine for Christ, just as Muslims must shine for Allah, etc.. And we a Masons must shine as good men.  If someone can look at me and say, "I know that man to be a Christian, and he's a mason", then I just helped debunk the lie.


----------



## Virgin Islands Brother

Someone spray painted on our lodge " eat shit devil fuckers" it really made me angry, I don't worship Satan, I just want to help people


Brother, our anti-masonry situation is so bad, we can't park outside of lodge. When I was an EA the JWs car glass was broken, an EA, on the night of his initiation, his glass was smashed. 
Now get this. At least once a month, there is a fresh clump of human feces greeting us at the entrance. The street cameras just don't do the job and we haven't been able to identify anyone. 

All I can say is pitty them. Always remember when a wise man and a fool argue, people standing at distance can't tell the difference. We can only rise above it and install the appropriate equipment necessary to catch them.


----------



## widows son

I feel for you brother, and I am disgusted with some people, I'm trying to convince our master to install a camera on our property, even of its not running anything, it might make people think twice


----------



## T.N. Sampson

CajunTinMan said:


> Why not Skip?  If I want people to know that I am not satanist then as a Christian I must shine for Christ, just as Muslims must shine for Allah, etc.. And we a Masons must shine as good men.  If someone can look at me and say, "I know that man to be a Christian, and he's a mason", then I just helped debunk the lie.


I mainly object to your misuse of scripture.  The verse you used is, of course, part of the Sermon on the Mount, in which Jesus is teaching his disciples about the Christian lifestyle.  He is not speaking to world at large, but only to those who have chosen to follow him, and letting them know what is expected of them.

The Bible speaks in both generalities and specificities.  The commandment "Do not steal" is a general statement applicable to all mankind.  Jesus' words to the thief "today you will be with me in paradiseâ€ is a specific statement, applicable to a single person at a single time.  To make more, or less, out of scripture is a problem.  In your case, to take a specific comment meant for disciples and apply it to Masons, both Christian and non-Christian, is simply unwarranted.  This is especially true when one considers that Jesus described himself as the "light of the world" which provides the context to Matt 5, in that our 'light' is reflective of his.  I personally find such scripture misapplication objectionable.

It would seem to me that the 'light' you are referring to is not Jesus, but the 'light' one finds within Masonry.  I think you would be better served to dwell on that light found in the Lodge than applying a Christian concept to all Masons.  If you wish to 'prove' that you are a Christian to others, your actions in the here and now should testify to that status.  I do not see how your membership in Masonry provides such a testimony.





> The only way we are going to combat all the anti Masonic rhetoric out there is to live lives that are examples to others.


Then show how Masonry has made you an example for others to follow.  I would assume that the basis of criticism you imply is Freemasonry, not Christianity; thus, address it from the center of the criticism.


> just as Muslims must shine for Allah,


Do you think that the 'light' of the Christian is also the 'light' of the Muslim?  Do you see any need to witness to the Muslim of your own beliefs?  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

Virgin Islands Brother said:


> Someone spray painted on our


I'm surprised the rules of the forum do not prohibit such obscenities.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## Brent Heilman

T.N. Sampson said:


> I'm surprised the rules of the forum do not prohibit such obscenities.  Cordially, Skip.



I don't see a problem since it was a quote. Now if the obscenities start flowing in every post then we might have a problem.


----------



## widows son

The obscenities weren't directed to you Skip, or to anyone i quoted what was sprayed on the side of my lodge, and they're only words Skip, sticks and stones brother, sticks and stones


----------



## Virgin Islands Brother

Understood Brother. No worries.


----------



## CajunTinMan

I think your hung up on the wrong thing here Skip. First of all those quotes are in the Bible to give examples. So the audience is far larger. Secondly, good examples of how to live can be found in the Bible, the Korean, the teachings Neechee, all over the place. The light I was talking about from the quote, for me as a Christian, was for Jesus but was also referencing how we as Mason we should use this example of how to act as an example of how to shine good light on Masonry too. Masonry is not and never has been a road to salvation. This was never implied. And you have completely twisted the reference to Islam because it did not in anyway imply that Christianity was a light for Muslims. I was clearly stating that it is my belief that they should both be a beacon to thier faiths. How that was misunderstood I have not ideal. But then again people misunderstand Masonary too. So I guess it is possible. I can see that I offended you by the point I was trying to make by saying that both Christians and Muslims should be a light to thier faiths, and as such could not be mistaken as worshiping satan. I apologize for this.


----------



## widows son

Don't Christians and Muslim believe in the same God? One just requires Christ to be the path to God? Both have the same end result: paradise; walking with the Maker( this doesnt reflect my beliefs though). I agree with CajunTinMan, there are many good examples on how to life a good can be found in the bible etc, but I think that these morals are human morals rather than christian or muslim morals. Even the ten commandments, does God really need to tell you that it's wrong to steal from someone? Or to not be covetous? I think just putting yourself in someone else's shoes will tell you the answer


----------



## T.N. Sampson

widows son; said:
			
		

> The obscenities weren't directed to you Skip


Sure they were:  they were on a thread I was reading.  I see no place for such words on this forum.


> they're only words


So were your obligations and the phrase you ended them with.  Were they meaningless as well?  Jesus noted that we need to be careful of every word we speak, because we will be held accountable for them.


> Don't Christians and Muslim believe in the same God?


No, they do not.  Their respective authorities describe them in mutually exclusive ways.



> I think that these morals are human morals rather than christian or muslim morals. Even the ten commandments, does God really need to tell you that it's wrong to steal from someone? Or to not be covetous? I think just putting yourself in someone else's shoes will tell you the answer


I think you've missed a serious point.  Morality is either God-centered or man-centered.  If man-centered, the moral code is ever-changing and context dependent.  If God-centered, it is absolute and unchanging.  Yes, God really did need to tell his people that they cannot steal, period.

I don't know how Texas treats the issue, but some GL's are clear that what is called 'Masonic morality' is the idea that each Mason determines what his moral code is and, once determined, will be expected to live up to that ideal.  It's a perfect example of man-centered morality.    Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

CajunTinMan said:


> First of all those quotes are in the Bible to give examples.


I do not agree.



> The light I was talking about from the quote, for me as a Christian, was for Jesus but was also referencing how we as Mason we should use this example of how to act as an example of how to shine good light on Masonry too.


The light the Christian shows is a reflection of Jesus.  As I noted earlier, if you wish to show the Masonic light in your life, I'd suggest you find a way that does not include misapplication of scripture.



> Masonry is not and never has been a road to salvation.


I would not agree with that, but such a discussion is outside the scope of this forum.


> I was clearly stating that it is my belief that they should both be a beacon to thier faiths.


I think that already happens.  When you see muslims killing people in the street over a perceived disrespect to Muhammad, I'd say that is certainly illuminating their faith. 



> I can see that I offended you by the point I was trying to make by saying that both Christians and Muslims should be a light to thier faiths, and as such could not be mistaken as worshiping satan. I apologize for this.


No offense taken and no apology needed.  I was just asking a follow-up question.  I apologize for not being more clear on that matter.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## CajunTinMan

_I_ _think you've missed a serious point. Morality is either God-centered or man-centered. If man-centered, the moral code is ever-changing and context dependent. If God-centered, it is absolute and unchanging. Yes, God really did need to tell his people that they cannot steal, period.


_Can't argue with that one. But the examples are there in the Bible to be a guide to all things.


----------



## phulseapple

Brothers, be mindful of your words on the subject of Freemasonry when in presence of its' enemies.


----------



## Traveling Man

> I would not agree with that, but such a discussion is outside the scope of this forum.


Youâ€™ve already gone down that track.



> I think that already happens. When you see Muslims killing people in the street over a perceived disrespect to Muhammad, I'd say that is certainly illuminating their faith.


Pretty broad brush there Skip, donâ€™t you think?



> No, they so not. Their respective authorities describe them in mutually exclusive ways.


Wow, as a friend of mine claims they pray to the G_d of Abraham. Who would that be?



> I don't know how Texas treats the issue, but some GL's are clear that what is called 'Masonic morality' is the idea that each Mason determines what his moral code is and, once determined, will be expected to live up to that ideal.


Please cite your source, as this is a first; as I have traveled more than around the block.



> So were your obligations and the phrase you ended them with. Were they meaningless as well? Jesus noted that we need to be careful of every word we speak, because we will be held accountable for them.


Nice circular argument thereâ€¦ You are really equating a solemn obligation with a bunch of obscenities graffitied on a building? Thanks for that nice tid-bit, I guess we know where we stand.



> The commandment "Do not steal" is a general statement applicable to all mankind.


So the Decalogue is the â€œgeneral statementsâ€, correct? Not just commandments to Israel and mankind in general.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

Traveling Man said:


> Pretty broad brush there Skip, donâ€™t you think?


No, I think it accurate.  Also illuminating is the lack of muslims standing up to condemn such behavior.  Should one Mason be found passed out drunk in front of a Lodge, all Masons would be judged by his actions.  Fairly or unfairly, it's how actions are seen.



> Wow, as a friend of mine claims they pray to the G_d of Abraham. Who would that be?


Ask him.  As well, ask him upon what authority does he base his understanding of his God.  All views of God have an authoritative source (e.g., Bible, Torah, Koran, etc.) and our knowledge comes from the source we hold to be authoritative.  Upon which VSL did you take your obligations and oath?  Did you not hold it authoritative on such matters?



> Please cite your source,


I do not have anything from Texas, but here are a few you may wish to consider on the topic:


> Morals, good morals, are those accepted standards of behavior by which any action is measured to determine its fitness for practice. Morality by the same token, is the exercise of those accepted standards. With these definitions, it becomes clear that Morality is the use of good morals in our daily lives. Morality is not a matter of compunction. The man, who acts always within the moral law, or within the bounds of propriety, solely because he fears to act otherwise, may be fooling himself and seldom others. Thus such a man becomes a kind of dual personality - one side of him wishing to act properly as a matter of principle,the other side restrained from immorality only by fear. It is the precepts that makes for morality and conduct, which establishes it. There is no such thing as Masonic Morality, as indicating a separate or exclusive code of conduct.  Masonry offers no set of specific morals nor does any particular moral originate in it. Masonry teaches the practice of all good morals, leaving the interpretation of right and wrong to the individual conscience. That Masonry abides deeply in the practice of Morality will be evident to you as you progress through itsDegrees.  (FL GL, LSME Booklet 1, 2009,pg. 8)






> The Plumb is a symbol of uprightness of conduct. In Freemasonry it is associated with the plumb line which the Lord promised Amos He would set in the midst of his people of Israel, symbolizing His standard of divine righteousness.  The plumb line in the midst of a people should mean that they will be judged by their own sense of right and wrong and not by the standards of others.  Freemasons, understanding the Plumb, are to judge each brother by his own standards and not those of another. When the plumb line is thought of in this way, it becomes a symbol of an upright life and of the conscience by which each must live.  (GA GL, Mentors Manual, 2010, pg. 28; (Same thought also in these sources:  NM GL,Masonic Etiquette, 2005, pg. 3; VA GL, Mentor's Manual, 2002, pg. 35; NE GL, Mentoring Manual, 2006, pg. 47; MS GL, Mentor's Manual, 1986, pg. 16; MSA, _Pocket Encyclopedia of Masonic Symbols_; CA GL, Mentoring Program, 2004, pg. 89; UT GL, FC Education Plan, 2007, pg. 4; IL GL, Intender Program, FC Guidebook, 2003, pg. 25; TN GL, BMEC-FC, 2003, pg. 8))



Though only indirectly a GL source, Allen E. Roberts addressed the issue concisely:



> A question often asked is, "What is morality?"  It is difficult to define.  What is moral to one man may be immoral to another.  Each man must decide for himself what the word encompasses, taking into account the moral standards of the society in which he lives.  He must take into account his conscience, circumstances, and conduct.  He must set his own standards, his own principles.  It can be dangerous to apply his standards in judging another person. (Allen E. Roberts, _The Craft and Its Symbols_, 1974, pg. 43)





> When a brother is in danger of any kind, it is your duty to advise him of his impending peril.  In doing so, you must remember that it is not by your "plumb line" that you judge him, but by his.  And it is his Square and his Level, not yours, by which you are to determine his actions.  His opinions may differ from yours politically or religiously, but they are his tools, not yours.  When he goes astray from his principles, then and only then, should you quietly remind him that he is in error.  Then you should assist him to find the right track for him to follow.  (Ibid, pg. 90)


What is clear from all of this is that the morality in Masonry is a man-centered one, though it is fair to say that some moral prohibitions do exist within Masonic law.  But the Mason is instructed to determine his own morality, then live within it.



			
				Traveling Man said:
			
		

> You are really equating a solemn obligation with a bunch of obscenities graffitied on a building? Thanks for that nice tid-bit, I guess we know where we stand.


My point was that words have meanings, and if one holds that they do not, of what import were those such a man used while kneeling at the Lodge altar?

In the larger sense, my view is that any use of profane language cheapens both writer and reader.  Surely the ideas we express are adorned by the words we use.  In the grafitti case, I see no need to quote what was left on the wall to express the outrage over the action.  BTW, that Masons should avoid the type of language I objected to has its roots in the Constitutions of 1723, Section V: 


> The Craftsmen are to avoid all ill language, and to call each other by no disobliging Name, but Brother or Fellow; and to behave themselves courteously within and without the Lodge.â€  (quoted in _Coilâ€™s Masonic Encyclopedia_, 2nd edition)





			
				Traveling Man said:
			
		

> So the Decalogue is the â€œgeneral statementsâ€, correct?


Within the context I used, yes.  It applies to all who claim them followers of God.  It is useful to also note that God did not clarify his views, or argue their validity or state the penalties for their violation.  He just expressed his moral view of right and wrong.  It's the perfect example of the God-centered morality I was addressing.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## Traveling Man

> No, I think it accurate. Also illuminating is the lack of muslims standing up to condemn such behavior. Should one Mason be found passed out drunk in front of a Lodge, all Masons would be judged by his actions. Fairly or unfairly, it's how actions are seen.


 Then this gives me the liberty of painting you the same as the Westboro Baptist as you are also a christian.



> Ask him. As well, ask him upon what authority does he base his understanding of his God. All views of God have an authoritative source (e.g., Bible, Torah, Koran, etc.) and our knowledge comes from the source we hold to be authoritative. Upon which VSL did you take your obligations and oath? Did you not hold it authoritative on such matters?




I did and I gave you his answer; the G_D of Abraham! And it is none of your concern upon which VSL I made my obligations. (Thanks for going there...).



> My point was that words have meanings, and if one holds that they do not, of what import were those such a man used while kneeling at the Lodge altar?



Your intent spoke to itself! I know for a fact this is truly what you meant and believe.



> I do not have anything from Texas, but here are a few you may wish to consider on the topic:



Nice try, quoting someone that's deceased that's not here to properly frame those quotes. 
I have several Masonic *jurisprudence* books that mentions nothing of which you are trying to say, you're trying to make an abstract statement into a binding law! Wow!



> Within the context I used, yes. It applies to all who claim them followers of God. It is useful to also note that God did not clarify his views, or argue their validity or state the penalties for their violation. He just expressed his moral view of right and wrong. It's the perfect example of the God-centered morality I was addressing.




So now the decalogue are views? Have you ever heard the term "Commandments"?


----------



## widows son

Skip,
I am wondering what happens when you see other obscenities in other places and how you react. If you don't like cursing and wander into something, than that's your problem, I quoted it because that was part of the topic I wanted to display, and wasn't directed toward you or anyone else. Perhaps obscenities have no place in masonry but I think your religious conviction is making you say that and not your own thoughts. Have you never stubbed your toe and yelled a curse word? I can guarantee you have. My obligation. All the obligations I took in masonry were the one of the most important things I've done in my life. I took an obligation of fidelity to my brotherhood, it's laws, it's landmarks, not betray the secrets or my fellow brethren, which includes you skip, and everyone on this forum, although. We have never met. Do not ask me if my obligation was meaningless, as i take offense to that especially when you bring in Jesus. Jesus has nothing to do with the obligations we took, Jesus can note all he wants,other people have used that quote too. So are words just words? Yes they are. The obligation represents something, the words are just the medium to convey. Muslims Christian and Jews worship the God of Abraham, so yea it is the same God in a sense, just interpreted differently based on the different people it influences. As for your God centered morality, I can hardly believe that God would concern himself with us, especially since that there are probably more intelligent beings in our universe, unless you believe God to be a white man sitting  on a cloud waiting to punish. Morality is based off of the sufferings of other humans, and humans recognizing this. The Masonic moral code is based off this, which among other things helps us realize ultimate truth in the GATOU. I you can't honestly figure out on your own that stealing is wrong, than that's an issue. What about Polynesian cultures who have a strict moral code, essentially they same as ours and have no concept of a single God?  Masonic morality is found in our rituals and landmarks that have come down to us. Skip this topic was on anti masonry, and I don't know how or why this became a religious subject, but in no offense to you at all, I think you think too much with the bible, which compromises your own opinion. People wrote the bible not God. Using 16th and 17th century thinking to amylose everything can only be harmful. Again I am not trying to offend you, you are my brother and so is everyone on this forum. And as for watch what we say in front of our enemies, i think we are all allies here, 
Cordially,
Widows Son


----------



## T.N. Sampson

Traveling Man said:


> Then this gives me the liberty of painting you the same as the Westboro Baptist as you are also a christian.


Indeed it does, at least until you research them and find that they are more of a family than a church, and not affliiated with any Baptist Convention.   As well, their acts give lie to their claim to be Christians.  After such research, you can no longer compare my actions to theirs.



> I did and I gave you his answer; the G_D of Abraham!


You missed the point.



> I know for a fact this is truly what you meant and believe.


Must be interesting to have such insight into my motivations and beliefs.



> Nice try, quoting someone that's deceased that's not here to properly frame those quotes.


Mr. Roberts book speaks for itself.   It's also a pretty influential book that is often found in GL bookstores and in a large percent of Masonic libraries.



> I have several Masonic *jurisprudence* books that mentions nothing of which you are trying to say, you're trying to make an abstract statement into a binding law!


Not really.  I'm showing where 10 GL's agree with the point I'm making, to say nothing of the MSA.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

widows son said:


> I am wondering what happens when you see other obscenities in other places and how you react.


Same way I react here:  I try to convince them that profanities degrade themselves and the entire forum community.



> I quoted it because that was part of the topic I wanted to display,


Understood, but why was the direct quote necessary?  It was your anger towards the graffitti that was at issue.  The words themselves were unnecessary to the discussion, and quite offensive.



> Perhaps obscenities have no place in masonry but I think your religious conviction is making you say that and not your own thoughts.


My thoughts stem from my religious convictions.  How a person sees the world is called his 'worldview' and that view usually comes through his religious beliefs.



> Have you never stubbed your toe and yelled a curse word?


Indeed I have, though in private.  We're never in complete control, but I avoid the use of profanity for the simple reason that it's not a practice I can see God approving.



> So are words just words? Yes they are.  The obligation represents something, the words are just the medium to convey.


I don't see how you can come to such a conclusion, especially considering the penalties you incurred.  Let's not go there, but words carry freight, which is why we should be real careful about what we say.



> Muslims Christian and Jews worship the God of Abraham, so yea it is the same God in a sense, just interpreted differently based on the different people it influences.


I do not agree, but it's not something that needs to be addressed on this forum.



> I can hardly believe that God would concern himself with us,


I can.  He's shown that concern by dying for our sins.  But your beliefs are your own, and I do not presume to challenge them.



> Skip this topic was on anti masonry, and I don't know how or why this became a religious subject


I don't see it as such.  At issue was whether Masonry teaches a man-centered or God-centered morality.  I, and many GL's, hold to the former view.  But, your point is taken:  perhaps Masonic Morality should be a separate thread.



> People wrote the bible not God.


Your personal view seems to conflict with the Masonic concepts of the Three Great Lights and the VSL.   If it is man-made, why would it be called the rule and guide to faith and practice?  If man-made, how could it have made your obligations more binding?  If man-made, why is it considered an indespensable piece of Lodge furniture, without which the Lodge cannot be opened?  Wouldn't a telephone book have sufficed just as well if you are correct?  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## widows son

Skip I respect you and your opinions but perhaps to keep the peace here we should continue our debate in private MSG, I have this forum as an app on my iPhone so im not sure how to do so yet. Please understand that i take freemasonry very seriously, and am a spiritual person and only want to help further myself in a positive way


----------



## dhouseholder

T.N. Sampson said:


> Also illuminating is the lack of muslims standing up to condemn such behavior.



http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://www.isna.net/Interfaith/pages/UP-Fatwa.aspx
http://www.ciogc.org/Go.aspx?link=7655053
http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism/IslamicStatementsAgainstTerrorism.aspx
http://www.religioustolerance.org/islfatwa.htm

There are two reasons why only radical Muslims get all of the attention...
1) It sells in America.
2) There is no organization in the Muslim faith. There is no spokesperson, Pope, leader, representative, Public Relations Department, etc, to deal with public image.


----------



## Traveling Man

> Indeed it does, at least until you research them and find that they are more of a family than a church, and not affliiated with any Baptist Convention. As well, their acts give lie to their claim to be Christians. After such research, you can no longer compare my actions to theirs.


Skip, I know who they are and have done the research, I also have known you and your acts (for a very long time). Enough said? (See the answer in quote four).


> I did and I gave you his answer; the G_D of Abraham!





> You missed the point.


As you can see here and as others have pointed out again, â€œthe G_D of Abraham!â€


> Must be interesting to have such insight into my motivations and beliefs.


Thank you, as you have been following me all the way back from the days of CompuServe.
I have read your mission statements, I know your ministry to Masons (Cornerstone Ministries); shall we continue?


> Mr. Roberts book speaks for itself. It's also a pretty influential book that is often found in GL bookstores and in a large percent of Masonic libraries.





> Not really. I'm showing where 10 GL's agree with the point I'm making, to say nothing of the MSA.


Brother Roberts wrote that abstract in completely different terms than which you are trying to imply.
You know that from his days on CompuServe, didnâ€™t you? You were called out then and Iâ€™m calling you out again.
So I repeat:


> I have several Masonic jurisprudence books that mentions nothing of which you are trying to say, you're trying to make an abstract statement into a binding law!


----------



## T.N. Sampson

Traveling Man said:


> Thank you, as you have been following me all the way back from the days of CompuServe.  I have read your mission statements, I know your ministry to Masons (Cornerstone Ministries); shall we continue?


By all means.



> Brother Roberts wrote that abstract in completely different terms than which you are trying to imply.


Mr. Roberts wrote what he wrote and I have quoted him in context.  Those wishing to check on that matter need only open his book to the indicated pages and read.  His view that men choose their own moral code and that other Masons judge them on only their adherence to their chosen code is well-founded in Masonry, as I have noted.  All considered, I'd say my conclusion is well supported in Masonic training documentation which addresses the subject.  It would be interesting to see what similar documents issued by the TX GL say, but I have not been able to find them.  Perhaps you could quote the relevant passages.



> I have several Masonic jurisprudence books that mentions nothing of which you are trying to say, you're trying to make an abstract statement into a binding law!


That your jurisprudence books do not address that topic is irrelevant.  As well, nothing in what I've written could lead anyone to the conclusion in your last sentence.  We are not talking about law herein, but how Freemasonry addresses morality.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

widows son said:


> Skip I respect you and your opinions but perhaps to keep the peace here we should continue our debate in private MSG


I have no problem with that.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## phulseapple

T.N. Sampson said:


> By all means.
> 
> Mr. Roberts wrote what he wrote and I have quoted him in context.  Those wishing to check on that matter need only open his book to the indicated pages and read.  His view that men choose their own moral code and that other Masons judge them on only their adherence to their chosen code is well-founded in Masonry, as I have noted.  All considered, I'd say my conclusion is well supported in Masonic training documentation which addresses the subject.


Since there is no central governing authority to Freemasonry, the words written by Brother Roberts are merely his own personal interpretations of the various symbols found in Freemasonry.


----------



## daddyrich

This is very interesting. Grown men can agree to disagree. But it does go a long way towards showing how something with quite pagan beginnings has been almost entirely co-opted by Christianity. I don't know for sure, but it seems the two of you have laid out your arguments well , according to your beliefs - but where do you go from here? FWIW, I am not offended by you directly quoting the grafitti, we are all adults here.


----------



## daddyrich

Whoa, my phone app jumped topic and response fields. Apologies, gentlemen. My response covered 2 different topics...sheesh.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

phulseapple said:


> Since there is no central governing authority to Freemasonry, the words written by Brother Roberts are merely his own personal interpretations of the various symbols found in Freemasonry.


That is indeed true; however, he speaks with authority on the subject and is/was widely respected within Masonry.  His views should be carefully considered based his experiences in, and knowledge of, Freemasonry.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## Michael Hatley

Wackos will be wackos.  Best you can do is not let them waste your time, even mental.  That and guard the door against folks who try to carry the wacko in with them.


----------



## widows son

*anti masonry( private)*

Hello skip thank you for accepting my request. I don't want this to get out of hand which is why I want to do this in private. First off where we're you raised as a master mason?


----------



## widows son

Oops didn't send to your inbox can you msg me?


----------



## phulseapple

T.N. Sampson said:


> That is indeed true; however, he speaks with authority on the subject and is/was widely respected within Masonry.  His views should be carefully considered based his experiences in, and knowledge of, Freemasonry.  Cordially, Skip.


True, however the only person he speaks for is himself.  He does not speak for the Fraternity as a whole....noone does.


----------



## daddyrich

Well put. Hopefully that ends the 'debate'.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

phulseapple said:


> True, however the only person he speaks for is himself.  He does not speak for the Fraternity as a whole....noone does.


What about the GL's that include his book on their recommended reading lists and sell it through their book store?  Would you not construe that as their endorsement of his views?  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## Traveling Man

T.N. Sampson said:


> What about the GL's that include his book on their recommended reading lists and sell it through their book store? Would you not construe that as their endorsement of his views? Cordially, Skip.


The answer is: emphatically, NO! As I was given some your propaganda as a recommend read, an endorsement, hardly.

You have for years tried to use this methodology as cannon fodder, with out much luck. This looks like the same tactic you tried to use with Bro. Dr. Brent Morris, Bro. Ed King, Bro. Nelson… 

Let me leave this conversation with a profound quote:

Every president of the Southern Baptist-run Baylor since its founding has been a Mason. Abner McCall, president emeritus of Baylor, asserted in his article that "membership and work in the Masonic Lodge and the Baptist Church have supplemented and supported each other and in no way supplanted nor subverted each other. They conflict only in the mind of a person who subscribes to a perverted version of Freemasonry, the church, or both." 

And if everyone/anyone wants to know what’s this all about, checkout the following site:
http://www.formermasons.org/what/toask.php

Strange, the site is titled, “former masons” . Skip, you’re not a former mason are you?
Advice about something you’re not, keep tilting at those windmills. <VBG>


----------



## T.N. Sampson

Traveling Man said:


> The answer is:


The question was not asked of you.  I suggest you have the courtesy of letting the intended recipient respond first, then you may weigh in.



> asserted in his article


Mind citing the source?  I'd like to read it.



> Strange, the site is titled, â€œformer masonsâ€ . Skip, youâ€™re not a former mason are you?


Not strange at all:  it's not my site, though the owner has my permission to use my material.  And you already know I'm not a Mason.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## widows son

Skip I think you need to find another forum, cuz nobody here is buying your BS


----------



## Traveling Man

T.N. Sampson said:


> The question was not asked of you. I suggest you have the courtesy of letting the intended recipient respond first, then you may weigh in.



Wow, I thought this was an open forum. I just looked up your profile and I see you are not a moderator.
When you ask a question here of Masons they are free to answer. I see you havenâ€™t changed your tactics.



> Not strange at all: it's not my site, though the owner has my permission to use my material. And you already know I'm not a Mason. Cordially, Skip.



I just wanted to make sure everyone here; again, knew that before they followed the link. They will then have some useful background information. Youâ€™re quite welcome.



> Mind citing the source? I'd like to read it.



Since you are so well versed in all things Masonic you should be able to find the source of that quote. Itâ€™s called research!

Try just repeating that quote over and over, again and again.:001_smile:


----------



## CajunTinMan

I just know this. Skip, neither you, nor any other person on this earth, can tell me that I am not a Christian, who I pray to, or what I believe. Nor do you or the Anti- Masonic crowd have the power to condemn me to hell. That power is reserved to my God. And if you or anyone else has an issue with that then take it up with him..


----------



## phulseapple

T.N. Sampson said:


> What about the GL's that include his book on their recommended reading lists and sell it through their book store?  Would you not construe that as their endorsement of his views?  Cordially, Skip.


Most Grand Lodges also sell works by Hodapp, Morris, Porter, Mackey, Hall, and Pike, etc and so on, however these are also those authors own personal view and interpretations of the symbols and signs found in Freemasonry.  So no, it would not be an endorsement of their views, it would be an example of where to find a well thought out, and concisely presented interpretation of the symbols in Masonry that a person could read to come up with their own explanations.  Something your pal Duane could not do. 

Would the works of Martin Luther, John Calvin or John Wycliffe be 100% accurate representations of Christianity?


----------



## T.N. Sampson

CajunTinMan said:


> Skip, neither you, nor any other person on this earth, can tell me that I am not a Christian, who I pray to, or what I believe. Nor do you or the Anti- Masonic crowd have the power to condemn me to hell.


And where have I done so?  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

phulseapple said:


> Would the works of Martin Luther, John Calvin or John Wycliffe be 100% accurate representations of Christianity?


Only to the degree that they reflect Biblical doctrine.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## daddyrich

Disingenuous and facetious. Phulseapple, your well-reasoned points are wasted in this conversation. This guy believes we are going to hell for our membership and still has the unmitigated gall to play a victim that we don't think of his feelings when we counter with his groups core beliefs. I am not one to pray much, but I do pray that group would consider me a 'persistant Freemason'. Please do go somewhere else and make your, "who me? I don't question your Christianity (etc.)"


----------



## daddyrich

Skip, have you looked up "internet troll" yet?


----------



## phulseapple

T.N. Sampson said:


> Only to the degree that they reflect Biblical doctrine.  Cordially, Skip.



Hardly......Luther's 95 Theses were his arguments based on his point of view and interpretation of what HE read in the Bible.....


----------



## phulseapple

daddyrich said:


> Disingenuous and facetious. Phulseapple, your well-reasoned points are wasted in this conversation. This guy believes we are going to hell for our membership and still has the unmitigated gall to play a victim that we don't think of his feelings when we counter with his groups core beliefs. I am not one to pray much, but I do pray that group would consider me a 'persistant Freemason'. Please do go somewhere else and make your, "who me? I don't question your Christianity (etc.)"


Oh I know that, I have seen him and his crew in action before.


----------



## widows son

Phulsapple is 100% accurate in his statement, those books are the authors interpreting of the symbols, nowhere in any of these books does it say " this book is endorsed by the GL. " you still haven't said which GL you are getting your reference from. There are many grand lodges in the world.


----------



## crono782

daddyrich said:


> Please do go somewhere else and make your, "who me? I don't question your Christianity (etc.)"


:thumbup:


----------



## T.N. Sampson

phulseapple said:


> Hardly......Luther's 95 Theses were his arguments based on his point of view and interpretation of what HE read in the Bible.....


Exactly.  He drew on the Bible as the authority for his points and one can address them on that basis for correctness.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## phulseapple

T.N. Sampson said:


> Exactly.  He drew on the Bible as the authority for his points and one can address them on that basis for correctness.  Cordially, Skip.



Nice try....but no.


----------



## Hndrx

I have generally found that anti-masons of various types have either a fear of things they find hard to understand or a fear of things they find to be "different".  Unfortunately, this often leads to intolerance, hate, and a propensity to attempt to cast their opinions as divine revelation or political rhetoric.  Everyone or everything that lacks conformity with their narrow viewpoint is somehow evil or an enemy.  (BTW, this is the same phenomenon that causes people to rant about Harry Potter, Sponge Bob, Dungeons & Dragons, etc.   Within the Christian community, these harmful attitudes hurt the spread of the gospel of Christ and make the unchurched public view most Christians as ignorant and hateful instead of Christlike.  As a very conservative Christian,  I've seen this first hand.)

Anti-masonry is present in a great many religious and political arenas.  Some good examples include radical versions of Islam, the governments of various communist states, totalitarian regimes world wide, and the Nazi party in WW2 Germany.  Unfortunately,  anti-masonry is simultaneously home to a great many lunatics and conspiracy theorists.  

Fighting against untruth and ignorance about Freemasonry is a tough job.  However, I think that we must do it for our future growth.


----------



## widows son

I agree, the the generation I'm growing up in, I feel, wants nothing to do with freemasonry, but I feel the same about Christianity. I don't anyone out of my friends and family that want to
Be a mason, but I also don't know anyone who wants to be a priest or pastor either. You are right we need fight this untruth, but we should pick our battles, people like skippy are people you will never get through, hes the kind of guy who wants us to not exist  and burn in hell for all of eternity cuz we are masons. Ludicrous, but a very real problem


----------



## Frater Cliff Porter

There will always be debate...there is a certain point in a Masons journey, at least there was mine, when I felt compelled almost to defend Freemasonry from the zealots.

Masonry has an answer for this which appears in the EA charge which admonishes us not to debate with the ignorant.

FYI for those wading into these waters.  Skip, WD Rice, Kunk, and the rest of the e-Masons that are or were part of the Ex-Masons for Jesus and E5:11 ilk have lied, changed post, made up whole people to convert to Christ so we could all watch.  In their version of Christianity you are evil and misinformed and they are doing God's work by battling with you because you have been tricked by something EVIL and that is FREEMASONRY and they feel the ends justify the means and have reduced themselves to horrible tactics to win this.

I honestly believe you are wasting time and should cut Skip like a cancer from this forum.  

He will learn nothing from you and you nothing from him.

Skip....I know it won't work, but I will ask anyway.  Please go away.


----------



## Hndrx

I was once an anti-mason.  I was misinformed by other anti-masons and through my ignorance opposed Freemasonry.  Most anti-masons fall into this category.  However, I do agree that the hardcore anti-masons are mostly a lost cause.  I don't respond to "convert" the hardcore anti-masons.  I respond so that others who may be like I once was will have a voice of reason instead of only hearing one side of the story and believing it because Masons, through their silence, are appearing to confirm the ridiculous accusations that are being made by the conspiracy nutters.


----------



## widows son

I think he's  got the point lol


----------



## Traveling Man

> * Masons, through their silence, are appearing to confirm the ridiculous accusations that are being made by the conspiracy nutters.*



*We would always be trying to prove a negative. All one has to do is look at their sources and the truth comes out. It has time and time again. The axiom about wrestling with pigs comes to mind: **I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.*
George Bernard Shaw
*
I was once told that the Masonic Charities contributions were exaggerated, these individuals don't have a clue as to what each local lodge contributes to each community, but again we don't have to brag about it like some other organizations. Does this mean we should have to open our books to them? I think not!*


----------



## widows son

Love the quote. I think we need to break the silence, but choose our battles. I think a GL program should be instituted, sanctioned by UGLE, and the affiliated bodies


----------



## widows son

My question to skip is why do you hate freemasonry? If religious and political freedoms are allowed in your country, why do you insist on putting them down. Satanist have as much a right to practice as you do, not that i agree with satanism but the point is they have the right to religious freedom.  Isnt it in your first amendment ?.( I took advanced American history in grade 12, correct me if my wrong)


----------



## T.N. Sampson

widows son said:


> My question to skip is why do you hate freemasonry?


I never said I did.  In fact, I don't.


> If religious and political freedoms are allowed in your country, why do you insist on putting them down.


I don't put them down, nor have I ever. 


> Satanist have as much a right to practice as you do, not that i agree with satanism but the point is they have the right to religious freedom.


Of course they do.  And I have the right to oppose them under the same freedom.


> Isnt it in your first amendment?


Freedom of speech and religion are both in there.  But on this forum, one sees Masons wishing to deny both to me.  An interesting occurance, one might say.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## JJones

> Masonry has an answer for this which appears in the EA charge which admonishes us not to debate with the ignorant.



And for good reason.



> *Masons, through their silence, are appearing to confirm the ridiculous accusations that are being made by the conspiracy nutters.*



No, we're neither confirming nor denying.  Assuming we were willing and able to clear all our accusations and conspiracies we'd lose a lot of our mystery.


----------



## Frater Cliff Porter

I am comfortable denying any anti-Mason a platform on a Masonic website as much as I would also keep you from the Fraternity.  The Craft is not the community.  It is a secretive society that specifically excludes madmen and fools.  I would have no problem throwing a cube at any one of the folks from E5-11 Skip. 

You can play sweet here, but Skip I remember the good old days.  The lies, the false identities, all the stuff done to Theron, etc.  I don't pretend you are a good man anymore.  To the contrary although you appear polite here.


----------



## widows son

Very true. But skip you dislike masonry, I've seen your stuff on the net you've said. Does your rightful opposition include hostility? Even verbal hostility can be harmful. I will never deny your religious rights ever, but I will debate you on how far you can go with them. People can make a conscious decision on they're own if they want to be a part of something or not. I don't think anyone on here is denying your first amendment, but you can't expect to enter a masonic forum, make statements which oppose it and not expect the brethren to be somewhat offended. Again skip, there is something that you dislike about freemasonry, if there wasn't you wouldnt be trying to convert people away from it, so what exactly is it?


----------



## daddyrich

Poor troll is being treated poorly. That's really awful.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

Frater Cliff Porter said:


> The lies, the false identities, all the stuff done to Theron, etc.


You have got to be kidding.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

widows son said:


> Does your rightful opposition include hostility?


Hostility is in the eye of the beholder.  If you don't like having Masonic doctrine cited, directly from Masonic sources, that could be described as hostility.  I think I can discuss Masonry on this forum in a reasoned manner.  Whether others can respond to it in a reasoned way is up to them.



> I don't think anyone on here is denying your first amendment, but you can't expect to enter a masonic forum, make statements which oppose it and not expect the brethren to be somewhat offended.


Just what statement have I made on this forum which you find offensive?  As long as this forum is open to non-Masons, I believe I have a right to discuss the subject fully, including the parts that some may perhaps not like.  



> Again skip, there is something that you dislike about freemasonry, if there wasn't you wouldnt be trying to convert people away from it, so what exactly is it?


Again, where have I tried to convert anyone on this forum?  If you wish to know my concerns with Freemasonry, I'd suggest you visit the E5-11 forum, or Christian Forums (Unorthodox Religion).  I'd be happy to discuss them with you there.  But such discussions are outside the scope of this forum.   Here, it seems, it is acceptable to discuss what Freemasonry teaches and what it's members perceive it to be.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## Traveling Man

T.N. Sampson said:


> Here, it seems, it is acceptable to discuss what Freemasonry teaches and what it's members perceive it to be.


 
And that seems to be the problem here; you telling us what Freemasonry teaches, and we're telling you that is not what it teaches. It will never end, as long as people of your ilk continue to try to tell us how we should live our lives, how to interpret what ever you dig up, and us telling you that we are free to live our lives as we please. You telling us Masonic doctrine, and us telling you, "it is not Masonic doctrine". You still haven't learned that from your â€œPikeâ€ escapades? You are wasting your time!:52:

You fail to understand; it is we that constitute the "Grand Lodge"; we are the voting members of our Grand Lodges. Now in different jurisdictions what constitutes the voting membership may be defined differently. What we have in our libraries does not constitute Masonic doctrine, period. Your Masonic sources mean little, as they do not constitute Freemasonry as a whole, they are as such, each individuals with perceptions and opinions.

I find it amusing that Masonry is what unites us, while you on the other-hand are attempting to divide us. You ungraciously brought up about how blacks were excluded, how about your church? What about that convoluted, deliberate miss-quote about the curse of Ham used to justify the slavery of blacks by Christians?



> Eleven o'clock Sunday morning is the most segregated hour and Sunday school is still the most segregated school of the week.


 
And in the churches that teach hate, itâ€™s still the most segregated hour. Howâ€™s yours looking? :32:

You have an almost unhealthy obsession with Freemasonry, itâ€™s almost a neurosis, if you really think that you can â€œconvert usâ€, or that we are so stupid that we will give you some kind of fodder for your cannon, youâ€™re mistaken.

Howâ€™s your old Buddy Dr. Larry Holly getting along? Last I heard he was kind of pushed out of his church because of a like neurosis.


----------



## widows son

You've  cited like three things and misquoted the "GL" documents just like those who misquoted pike and hall, for example you say GL. Which one? UGLE? There are thousands of GL's.  I have this forum as an app on my phone so I'm not sure how you see this forum but on page six of this thread is where this all started. I've seen your E5-11, but I've also seen a work done by Arturo De Hoyas and S Brent Morris about you skip. As far as I'm concerned you've been branded, and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt but even the brothers here and scottish rite authorities seem to not be buying what your saying, and I hold their word over yours especially from Arturo de Hoyas. one site I visited has a checklist for Christians who are considering joining masonry seems pretty anti, and your name searched on google is attached to that site  www.formermasons.org/what/toask.php
Seems to have some pretty unmasonic overtones to it in my books. You are On a site of former masons and you've never even stepped foot in a lodge. #4 on the site struck my attention which you state: "Since the Bible is on the "sacred altar" of the Lodge, you may wish to ask if Jesus Christ is also taught there, since he is such a large part of that book." Last time I check masonry isn't Christianity.  Jesus Christ was in half the book and the VSL is used only as a spiritual text for moral reference. Which is why its called VSL and not the not the bible, and which is why anyone of any monotheistic religion can be a mason. I don't think hostility is in the eye of the beholder, hostility is hostility. You have said you have nothing against masonry but yet you don't deny being hostile to it. Clearly there is an issue there, So I will ask again. What is it about masonry that irks you?


----------



## phulseapple

You see skip, what you are lacking is the experience of going through the degrees.  You can read about them all you like, and then try and twist and turn what you read into almost anything your heart desires.  The fact of the matter is, your knowledge of Masonry was gained through reading about it.  Since you mention GL documentation like mentoring material and ritual, you had to have obtained those documents through dishonest means, since those documents are meant for members only.  Not because there is anything sinister or nefarious in them, but because you are not entitled to them.  You did not do the work to earn the right to possess them.  There is definitely something taught in Masonry, it is nothing different than what one learns in school or in life.  You seem bent on getting us to discuss our ritual with you.  Well, I hate to disappoint you, but none of us will do that and there is a very good reason for that.  It is a universal part of the solemn obligation we took that we do not discuss it with either cowans and eavesdroppers.  So, try as you might, your efforts will be in vain.  
 Cordially -  The Freemasons


----------



## Ashlar

Edited : A good point was raised about feeding the trolls , so I will gladly withdraw my post .


----------



## crono782

I get the sense it's a whole "make mildly audacious statements to get the trolling started while maintaining an annoying naivete when rebutted" kinda thing.

Reminds me of this:



:30:


----------



## JJones

> I have seen other antis join Masonic forums , post their lies and misconceptions and when they push Masons to far , the Brethren become angry and say things they may regret , then the anti runs off saying things such as " See , Masons can not control themselves !!" , " Masons are foul mouthed and mean !!" etc; etc; .



Someone made the suggestion that we ignore the fellow several posts ago.  I understand it's hard to do, but if you don't feed the trolls they'll go elsewhere.


----------



## Ashlar

JJones said:


> Someone made the suggestion that we ignore the fellow several posts ago.  I understand it's hard to do, but if you don't feed the trolls they'll go elsewhere.



I can live with that and edited my other post to reflect it .


----------



## T.N. Sampson

Traveling Man said:


> It will never end, as long as people of your ilk continue to try to tell us how we should live our lives,


Where have I done that?



> You telling us Masonic doctrine, and us telling you, "it is not Masonic doctrine".


According to an old copy of the GLoT Constitution, 





> Section 2d.  The Grand Lodge has exclusive jurisdiction over all regular Lodges and Ancient Free and Accepted Masons within the limits of Texas; and power to constitute new Lodges; to revoke charters granted; to maintain uniformity in the mode of working; and generally to control Masonic affairs.  (Taylor's Monitor, 1898, pg. 177)


Mirroring this is this from the installation ceremony of a Lodge WM, from the same source, pg. 113:





> V. You agree to hold in veneration the original rulers and patrons of the Order of Masonry, and their regular successors, supreme and subordinate, according to their stations; and to submit to the awards and resolution of your Brethren, when convened, in every case consistent with the Constitutions of the Order.





> X. You promise to pay homage to the Grand Master for the time being, and to his officers when duly installed; and strictly to conform to every edict of the Grand Lodge, or General Assembly of Masons, that is not subversive of the principles and groundwork of Masonry.


These may have been altered over time, but I'd be surprised that they'd give up the power therein.  Thus, the GLoT sees itself as in control of all regular Texas Blue Lodge Masonry and expects the WM to agree to that.  Given all of this, I'd say the GLoT has every right to promulgate doctrine as part of its duties.

Closer to the discussion is the training documentation put out by the TX GL Committee on Masonic Education and Service, whose duties, according to the GLoT website, include:





> to formulate and promulgate a system of instruction in the fundamental principles, symbolism, teachings and practical application of Masonry; ...


Thus, any training documentation put out by this committee is indeed Masonic 'doctrine,' is binding upon the regular TX Mason and can be used to determine how Texas Masonry sees itself and trains its members to see Freemasonry within that jurisdiction.  I'd be willing to bet that the current GLoT Constitution goes further into the Masonic Education area and may well dictate it's use by subordinate Lodges.  I'll have to check into that.



> You still haven't learned that from your â€œPikeâ€ escapades?


I haven't had any Pike 'escapades' that I know of. 



> You fail to understand; it is we that constitute the "Grand Lodge"; we are the voting members of our Grand Lodges. Now in different jurisdictions what constitutes the voting membership may be defined differently.


Indeed, but not just any TX Mason can show up to vote.  The old Constitution limited it to a certain number of representatives from each Lodge, not the entire Lodge membership.



> What we have in our libraries does not constitute Masonic doctrine, period. Your Masonic sources mean little, as they do not constitute Freemasonry as a whole, they are as such, each individuals with perceptions and opinions.


As noted above, if they are issued by the GLoT, they sure are.  Those not so-originated are indeed commentary, which can be useful or a waste of time based on the author's qualities.



> You ungraciously brought up about how blacks were excluded,


Nothing ungracious about it.  I just noted that SC Masons happily participated in an organization that specifically excluded non-whites.   Given the main themes of Freemasonry, it seems the highest form of hypocrisy to me, and to many Masons as well.  Bear in mind, it's one thing to challenge the legitimacy of Prince Hall Masonry, at least up until the UGLE recognized it.  But it's another to specifically exclude a man solely on the account of his race.



> how about your church?


I attend a mixed race church.



> What about that convoluted, deliberate miss-quote about the curse of Ham used to justify the slavery of blacks by Christians?


Interesting how it falls to a non-Mason to address that charge.  What is very clear from history is that Christians, from the time of Jesus' crucifixion, opposed slavery.  In the recent few centuries, it was Christians who began the world wide efforts to eradicate the practice.  My personal view is that anyone justifying slavery from the Bible is not a Christian.



> if you really think that you can â€œconvert usâ€


I doubt if that's possible.



> Howâ€™s your old Buddy Dr. Larry Holly getting along?


Don't know.  I never knew the man.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## widows son

Werent the men who brought slavery to the US Christian? And why do you have this obsession with masonry if your not intent on joining it? Like I said something about it irks you, you would be trying to steer people away from it of you didn't


----------



## T.N. Sampson

widows son said:


> You've  cited like three things and misquoted the "GL" documents


That is untrue.  The GL quotes were properly cited and are accurate.  One only need follow the trail to see that.



> You are On a site of former masons and you've never even stepped foot in a lodge.


No, an article of mine is quoted on a site of former masons, with my permission.  Quite a different thing than you have implied.



> Last time I check masonry isn't Christianity.


A very true statement.



> Jesus Christ was in half the book


Well, no, but that's a matter for a forum dealing with Christian doctrine, not Masonic.



> and the VSL is used only as a spiritual text for moral reference.


Only for moral reference?  That's interesting.  I thought it was the rule and guide of faith, the great light in Masonry, a symbol of the will of God as man understands it, an essential piece of Lodge furniture.  



> Which is why its called VSL and not the not the bible,


That is incorrect.  It's called the Bible, and probably called that in your BL ritual.  Freemasonry includes it under a category of books referred to as the VSL, which essentially includes any book a Freemason holds as holy (e.g., Koran, Book of Mormon, Torah, etc).  From what I've seen, it's the 'Bible' in ritual, but the VSL in training documentation.



> and which is why anyone of any monotheistic religion can be a mason.


Again untrue, at least in the GLoT jurisdiction.  As their petition states:





> Do you seriously declare, upon your honor, that you firmly believe in the existence of God, the immortality of the soul, and the Divine Authenticity of Holy Scripture?


In general, any belief in a Supreme Power is enough to qualify a man for membership.  If you were correct, Mormons and Hindus would not be allowed to join as neither are monotheistic religions.




> What is it about masonry that irks you?


And again I reply:  the topic is outside the scope of this forum.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## widows son

Well I dunno about Texas but I was asked in the belief of a supreme being, not God and not once have i heard the word bible in lodge, always VSL, again lack of experience on your part. The old testament last time I check has no mention of christ, as it is originally jewish ( which jesus was by the way) You can read all you want.  And what ritual have you seen? Ritual varies, In Canada it's slightly different than in America and same to other countries in the world. Look freemasonry in France, you will see the difference.  Also your security"checklist" seems to mention a lot of Jesus. If you know so much about masonry then you'd know that Jesus won't be in the lodge. I think the reason for that is because jesus would not make Freemasonry universal. why impose this question? You know there is going to be no change. Freemasonry is universal, which is why you don't understand it.  so many people can enjoy it, it is tolerant  which because of your religious convictions you can't be. I think maybe freemasonry should exclude Christians like yourself. I truly believe that you are wrong. You may cite real references but your interpretation is too narrow to properly cite them.  I think Jesus himself would be appalled at the distortion of his word by people like yourself. Humanity will evolve and the world has a way of cutting out loose ends, and I think you might fit that category one day skipper


----------



## widows son

And if you don't think that question doesn't apply to you in this forum then why are you posting your opinions on a thread whose topic is anti masonry


----------



## Traveling Man

> You are On a site of former masons and you've never even stepped foot in a lodge.
> No, an article of mine is quoted on a site of former masons, with my permission. Quite a different thing than you have implied.


 
And that is construed as lying by omission, omitting the fact on that site that you never were a Freemason. Because you let some minion do your dirty work doesn’t remove you from your moral obligation to tell the truth. The implication, the title etc., but that’s your style.

What you quote is Grand Lodge Law, not doctrine. You are trying to count angels dancing on the head of a pin. You time and time again are trying to pretend that what your spouting is “doctrine”, trying to co-mingle it with your interpretation of religious doctrine or dogma. G.L. Constitutions, Laws and other senseless incoherent babbling mixing it all together and then you’ll claim it’s a religion! First it was Pike then Brother Roberts, who next?
Let’s use Occam’s razor here, shall we? You are trying (covertly) to insinuate that Freemasonry is not compatible with (your brand) of Christianity period. You are out to recon any information that you can twist into fit your end game. The problem arises when you were identified as a Cowan (just as you cried about being called a Cowan on all of the other forums).
The other problem arises when so many of religious clerics are also Freemasons.
I’m sure you find that very troublesome, but this fact has been pointed out to you before.



> I haven't had any Pike 'escapades' that I know of…


Really? Try this...


> "Since it has been somewhat over 3 years since I first started writing on Masonry, you may be interested to know how I have changed my own views. First, I no longer bring Albert Pike into the equation, as the main fact of his Luciferian viewpoints has indeed shown to be a lie (though there is a slight hint of this in Morals & Dogma, pg. 321)… "


 If your memory gets any worse, you could throw your own surprise party.:12:

It’s really too bad I didn’t save some of your dialogue from the Masonic Forum on CompuServe, I could really have some fun here. And you claim not to know Dr. Larry Holly? Really?


What about that convoluted, deliberate miss-quote about the curse of Ham used to justify the slavery of blacks by Christians? 





> In the recent few centuries, it was Christians who began the world wide efforts to eradicate the practice.


 

It sure was a Christian religion that first tried to abolish slavery in the U.S., but it wasn’t yours and in some circles (your Christian hating), those individuals are considered a “cult”, i.e. anyone but us because we are the only true believers etc.



> And again I reply: the topic is outside the scope of this forum.


And we know why, but why do your persist on baiting individuals here when you know what your trying to attempt is forbidden?

I too am about to swear off troll feeding. Adios and vaya con dios, Cowan!


----------



## phulseapple

Skip - You are relying on not only outdated material in some cases, but it is material that you are not rightfully entitled to have in the first place.  In closing, all I will say is you need to put aside what you have been  fed by your E511 and EMFJ buddies if you want to truly learn what  Freemasonry is about, because it is clear that they do not know either.


----------



## Ashlar

phulseapple said:


> Skip -  material that you are not rightfully entitled to have in the first place / E511 and EMFJ buddies .



I chopped this up to show the "Christian" values of the E 5/11 EFMJ buddies of ol' Skip . 

I was checking out their websites on a lark when I noticed they were selling the Kentucky Monitor (along with many other states rituals) in CD format . This Monitor is still covered by copyright laws to keep people like Larry Kunk and his cronies from making money off of it . It has been brought to their attention that they are violating copyright laws , but I guess they think their tax free , anti-mason money making ministry scheme is above the law .

And if Skip or anyone else says it is not still covered by copyright laws is dead wrong .


----------



## widows son

Absolutely brutal.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

Traveling Man said:


> And that is construed as lying by omission, omitting the fact on that site that you never were a Freemason.


Not hardly.  By your logic, the fact I'm on this website must mean I'm claiming to be a Mason from Texas.  I'm not a member of the group in question, though they have blanket permission to use my materials.



> What you quote is Grand Lodge Law, not doctrine.


Partially true; however, the doctrine comes from those charged by GL law to promulgate it, as I have shown.



> Letâ€™s use Occamâ€™s razor here, shall we? ...  The problem arises when you were identified as a Cowan


If so, it is incorrectly done.  Here's the key part of the definition from the online Masonic Dictionary:





> If a man has learned the work by some illegal method he is a cowan.


Since I have learned the work by legal methods, the definition does not fit.  As it happens, the Masonic material in my possession came from Ebay purchases and from Grand Lodges themselves.  You'd be surprised how many rituals and training documents you can buy simply by filling out a GL order form and sending in the required amount.



> The other problem arises when so many of religious clerics are also Freemasons.  Iâ€™m sure you find that very troublesome, but this fact has been pointed out to you before.


Not troublesome at all.  They have their ability to choose as well as I do.



> Really?


Yes, really.  Here's the definition of the term:





> A wild, exciting adventure; ... any lighthearted or carefree episode.


The quote you offered is an acknowledgement that I do not use a specific Pike reference.  That is hardly as escapade.



> And you claim not to know Dr. Larry Holly? Really?


Yes, really.  I've never met the man, though I am familiar with his work.



> It sure was a Christian religion that first tried to abolish slavery in the U.S., but it wasnâ€™t yours


Well, actually it was.  The SBC came out of the Baptists who fought against slavery from their establishment in America in the 18th century on.  They certainly did lose their way after the Revolution, but have apologized for it since.  Not sure I've ever seen a Masonic GL apologize for the same thing, but I might have missed it.  At least one GL has had a black GM.



> those individuals are considered a â€œcultâ€, i.e. anyone but us because we are the only true believers etc.


Not hardly.  A group is considered a cult when they misinterpret a core Christian doctrine, usually at the impetus of one man.  My beliefs are true only to the degree that they find clear Biblical support.



> And we know why, but why do your persist on baiting individuals here when you know what your trying to attempt is forbidden?


There's no baiting.  I hadn't realized discussions involving Masonic morality and answering questions asked of me is 'baiting.'  My view is that I'm doing what everyone else around here is doing:  discussing Freemasonry.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

Ashlar said:


> And if Skip or anyone else says it is not still covered by copyright laws is dead wrong .


Larry Kunk was asked similar questions, and here is his response:





> Several years back, in response to a request in a Masonic news group, several Masons contacted our ISP claiming that we were selling copyrighted Masonic materials. The individual at the ISP who received the complaints was going through the chairs at a local lodge, he was and is a Master Mason. He examined the claims, investigated the matter and concluded that we were not in violation of the US Copyright laws.


The E5-11 site has quite a lot of information on the topic which you can find by searching on the word 'copyright.'  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

phulseapple said:


> Skip - You are relying on not only outdated material in some cases,


I don't rely on older material unless I can find support for it.  Still, I've noted that Monitors don't change all that much over the years.  I doubt whether a monitor can be outdated.



> but it is material that you are not rightfully entitled to have in the first place.


Not so.  All the materials I have are legally purchased.  You may make the point that the seller never should have sold them to me, but that's on him, not me.  You'll be interested to know that my most recent monitors, rituals and training documents come from the GL's themselves.  I've received such information from about a half-dozen GL's just by sending in an order form, in my own name, with a check to cover expenses.  Thus, I am entitled to them by GL decision.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

widows son said:


> not once have i heard the word bible in lodge, always VSL,


Very interesting.  So the VSL is the great light, furniture, rule and guide, and all of that?  When a man takes his obligation using a Bible, it's still not mentioned by name?  As I said, interesting.  I've noted slight alterations in various GL training documents in the U.S. that indicate a move on their part to just the view you've noted.  "VSL" is getting more usage than "Bible" in such documents, though I've seen no such replacements in ritual.



> If you know so much about masonry then you'd know that Jesus won't be in the lodge.


I kinda figured that out fairly early in my Masonic research.  We are in agreement:  there is definitely no room for him there.



> I think maybe freemasonry should exclude Christians like yourself.


I'd like to think it already does, though in a different sense.  But don't such comments make you intolerant?  Your GL says it welcomes everyone "regardless of race, colour or creed."



> I think Jesus himself would be appalled at the distortion of his word by people like yourself.


In what way have I distorted Jesus' words?  



> why are you posting your opinions on a thread whose topic is anti masonry


Same reason I post on other topics of interest to me.  My actual point is that this website is not about discussing the varied criticisms of Freemasonry, so one would go elsewhere to pursue that.  Here we just discuss Freemasonry.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## phulseapple

T.N. Sampson said:


> Not so.  All the materials I have are legally purchased.  You may make the point that the seller never should have sold them to me, but that's on him, not me.  You'll be interested to know that my most recent monitors, rituals and training documents come from the GL's themselves.  I've received such information from about a half-dozen GL's just by sending in an order form, in my own name, with a check to cover expenses.  Thus, I am entitled to them by GL decision.  Cordially, Skip.


 Not so.  You did not do the work to be entitled to own the materials.  Submitting a request to a GL for materials intended for Master Masons only proves you to be nothing more than an eavesdropper and in my book that makes your word worth precisely squat.  And, at least in NY, you need to provide your lodge information to request materials.  Do share your source of these alleged GL request forms.  So, by your own words, you *bought* something that in the real world of Masonry, needs to be earned.   

So tell us, what is your qualm with Masonry?  I bet I know what it is, and since you have been asked multiple times by multiple members, do tell us what that qualm is.....


----------



## widows son

Any holy text that a supreme being is at the core is used,  and the word VSL is used in ritual. God is universal.  As for my intolerance, I have not an ounce of intolerance in my being, such a statement is shocking coming from such an intolerant person as yourself. Like you said masonry welcomes all race, color or creed but it will exclude people like you because if your hostile and slanderous actions towards it, plus your religion forbids it. The are many examples on how Jesus' or rather Gods word is warped by fundamentalist view. Jesus said love thy neighbor. Now fundamentalism is against freemasonry, so if your neighbor is a mason, do you still love him, even though your leaders say he will go to hell and is evil? Who has more sway over you thoughts, your leader or christ?Here's a quote from Pat Robertson : "(T)he feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." –Pat Robertson. Here's some more :"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism." 
-Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue
Quoted in The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana. 8-16-93. "In winning a nation to the gospel, the sword as well as the pen must be used." "Democracy is a heresy against God!"
-R.J. Rushdooney, Director of the Rutherford Institute,
which was the principal funder of Monica Lewinsky's
legal defense, and architect of "Christian Reconstructionism.". "Not only is homosexuality a sin, but anyone who supports fags is just as guilty as they are. You are both worthy of death." American Fred Phelps leader of the Westboro Baptist Church. "With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew." American evangelist Bailey Smith. "AIDS is not just GodÂ´s punishment for homosexuals; it is GodÂ´s punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." American Jerry Falwell founder of the Thomas Road Baptist Church. Warped! Skip, aren't we all equal in the eyes of the maker? By the fact that you follow these type of people, there is no possible way you can properly interpret any Masonic work.


----------



## MarkR

T.N. Sampson said:


> I kinda figured that out fairly early in my Masonic research.  We are in agreement:  there is definitely no room for him there.


There's room for Jesus in a Masonic Lodge; the individual Mason can bring Him to the Lodge in his heart.  We just don't require anyone to believe that the only path is through Jesus in order to sit in Lodge with us.  How they define the Grand Architect is up to them.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

phulseapple said:


> You did not do the work to be entitled to own the materials.


Yes, I did.  I paid for them.  Res ipsa loquitur. 



> Submitting a request to a GL for materials intended for Master Masons


If they were intended for Master Masons, I could not have bought them.  The GL's put no such restriction on them, obviously.  I even talked directly to one person at a GL over the order and told her specifically that I wasn't a Mason but was just interested.  The materials, including ritual, arrived shortly thereafter.



> Do share your source of these alleged GL request forms.


Check out GL bookstore order forms and you'll get a good idea of who is offering what.



> So tell us, what is your qualm with Masonry?


I don't have a sudden feeling of apprehensive uneasiness about Masonry.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

widows son said:


> As for my intolerance, I have not an ounce of intolerance in my being


Sure looked that way to me.  Still does, but that is your right.



> Like you said masonry welcomes all race, color or creed but it will exclude people like you because if your hostile and slanderous actions towards it, plus your religion forbids it.


Ok, I see.  Masonry would welcome me but you would not.  As to my religion forbidding it, I think it more correct to say that my view of what is proper Christian behavior is more the culprit.



> The are many examples on how Jesus' or rather Gods word is warped by fundamentalist view.


Your original comment implied that I had misused Jesus' words.  I see now that you meant that about others not about me.  Thanks for the clarification.  But I might ask this:  what makes you think I support the people you've quoted?

A common misconception among Masons is that all those characterized as 'anti-Masons' fit into one convenient description; thus you have a mindset about them that isn't really valid, any more than assuming that all Masons think, act and believe in the same things would be valid.  That mindset allows you to assume things about me that simply aren't true and are without foundation of fact.



> Jesus said love thy neighbor. Now fundamentalism is against freemasonry, so if your neighbor is a mason, do you still love him,


I don't think you understand what fundamentalism actually is.  I do, and none of its tenets deals with Freemasonry.

To answer your question:  of course.  But if a man was about to get hit by a truck, would I not be motivated by that love to warn him? 



> Who has more sway over you thoughts, your leader or christ?


Christ is my leader, so that's an easy one to answer.



> aren't we all equal in the eyes of the maker?


We all are his creations; however, the Bible teaches that only those who follow Jesus can be described as children of God and can call on him as Father.  That fact pretty much blows a hole in the Fatherhood of God doctrine, which is only correct if the fatherhood is limited to the creative aspect of our equality.

I think all religions establish a certain separation between their adherents and the rest of the world.  Jesus put the requirement for love more heavily on believers in their relationship to other believers than to the world at large.  Masons restrict their teachings only to Masons, assuming they will lead the rest of the world into the light.  I guess none of us believe in actual equality before God in an absolute sense.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## Ashlar

T.N. Sampson said:


> Larry Kunk was asked similar questions, and here is his response:The E5-11 site has quite a lot of information on the topic which you can find by searching on the word 'copyright.'  Cordially, Skip.



So  ISPs' employees in the call center are copyright lawyers now !? I did not know that ! ETA: So Skip , you are merely going to take ol' Larry's word for it huh , the very same guy that called his ISP and made claims that Masons were destroying his life by spying on him like he is that important ? Larry posted it on his web site SO IT JUST HAS TO BE TRUE ! It is okay to steal and make profit off of someone's material ? They can make any type of claim of innocence they wish but it still does not prove it to be true . I can rob a bank and when questioned say that I didn't do it , you know , kinda of like every other criminal out there . Of course he will not fess up to breaking the law , it IS for a greater cause in his own mind . This was brought up in lodge once when we were having a laugh at your types , a prosecuting attorney made the statement of this copyright infringement , but the GL does not wish to pursue it due to the cost .

They are selling Monitors in CD format , that IS (or was if he stopped) a clear violation of copyright laws . I guess I may take some authors book , their intellectual property , place it in CD format and sell it then . Am I correct in this assumption ? I can call my ISP and ask them to make a ruling so if it comes up in a court of law I can say "My ISP stated that I was not breaking the law !" and they should reply "oh , if Roadrunner says it's cool then it is all fine and dandy ! Please do carry on selling this author's  books on CD " .


----------



## Traveling Man

*Re: anti masonry, Cowan: Defined*

Cowan:
This is a purely Masonic term, and signifies in its technical meaning an intruder, whence it is always coupled with the word eavesdropper.


----------



## widows son

Well to be honest skip I am tolerant. Extremely tolerant, but in the scope of things, your ultimate goal is to see every lodge in the world with it's doors closed for good, which obviously every brother on this forum and the rest of the world would be against. So naturally those who are against, should not be welcome.  Would you not agree if you were in the same scenario? What I'm trying to say is tolerance can only go so far. You can think I'm going to hell all you want. That doesn't bother me one bit, but I'd still tolerate your beliefs because that's your right, just as its my right to believe I can find values and morals in the lodge, just keep you opinion to yourself of
Its a negative one.  Again another reason i think you would be denied membership is because you are looking for christ in freemasonry, which you already know he is not a part of, which would make you think that it would constitute "unchristian behavior". Then again that thought would stem from your religious convictions, and if you interpreted your Masonic research properly you would find that Masonic behavior demands the highest standards of of morality and citizenry by it members, which in some cases exceeds the christian behavior standard.   As for my implication, it was directed to you skip and here's why: correct me if I'm wrong but you believe in the literal translation of the bible. Word for word. Truth or should i say fact. Jesus taught the simple values of love, honesty, and belief in God.  That's it . Now your church leaders are the authority in your  specific faith, as there is no pope or central figure in the reform Christian sects.  They preach the " word of God through Jesus Christ." They condemn freemasonry and others in the quotes I cited because they don't conform to their beliefs of "christianity," or " christian behavior." Now you being part of the faith that these people preach to, and they being the authority saying the bible is fact, which you believe is fact, and these groups are " violating" the word of God, you now use that's as means to analyze everything you come in contact with. If this weren't true you would not be trying to convert people away from Freemasonry or saying that only Christians are Gods children and nobody else.  To kind of use your words skip: "A common misconception among most christians is that all those characterized as 'secret societies, past or present, good or evil' fit into one convenient description; Freemasonry,thus you have a mindset about them that isn't really valid, any more than assuming that all Christians think, act and believe in the same things would be valid. That mindset allows you to assume things about Freemasons that simply aren't true and are without foundation of fact. "Skip it works both ways. Again If none of the tenants of fundamentalism deal with freemasonry then why do fundamentalists condemn it? I'm glad to hear that at least in life or death situations you would be motivated by Christ's love to help someone in need although it's just the right HUMANE thing do, not religious.  As for the Fatherhood of God, the Torah or old testament which is part of the holy book, which to you is factual and historical, states that the Israelites are Gods children and chosen people only.  Who's to say that Jews aren't right and Christians have it Wrong?  We know that Jesus was a Jew, and that Christianity would not exist without Judaism. We also know that the old testament said that man will worship God only, and it seems that Christians worship Jesus and the saints more than God itself.  Also the Koran states that those who don't worship Allah will be punished, but reveres Jesus as a prophet and Christians and Islamist hate each other.  Kind of an oxymoron but anyways. Now biblical and theological study has shown us that these three faiths recognize the same God, the God of Abraham. Although Christians and Jews share at least one holy text Islam does not, but the Koran features biblical stories, characters, and landmarks.  These 3 faiths make up the majority of the worlds population, and if the same God is at the center of these faiths then I guess you can say we are under the Fatherhood of God. I think the reason for the separation of the worlds religious adherents is ignorance. Even though there is war and hate caused by religion, at the core, every religion is about peace, love for God and thyself, which I think we can at least agree on. Every culture has its own traditions and customs that are different, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a level of respect. I think Some of the reasons why Freemasonry has evolved to the way it is, is because of that very ignorance, and it still strives to for equality, and tolerance in an intolerant world, Skip I think your the only one who doesn't believe in equality in the eye of God on this forum.


----------



## widows son

Sorry in the Christian reform part of my statement, mean to say central governing figure rather than just central figure as that can mean Christ as well


----------



## CajunTinMan

Brothers. This man is just using our words for cannon fader.  Just as the words of the Bible and the Constitution are constantly being twisted and misused by the misguided.  Best just to ignore him. We know who we are. We have no need to defend ourselves.


----------



## phulseapple

Skip - The only way you could have gotten a monitor and ritual from GLoNY is if you were in fact a Mason.  These items are intended for and provided to Masterr Masons in the NY lodges.  The only person who is authorized in a Lodge to request such items is the lodge Secretary.  GLoNY does not have a bookstore where these items can be purchased.  So, either you are lying now about how you obtained those items, or you lied at the time you made your purchase.  Either way, you are not entitled to be in possesion of those items from GLoNY.  You may have earned *the money* that you allegedly used to allegedly purchase said items, but you did not do the work to entitle you to *the right* to possess them.  You ARE in the wrong, and you know it.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

phulseapple said:


> The only way you could have gotten a monitor and ritual from GLoNY is if you were in fact a Mason.  These items are intended for and provided to Masterr Masons in the NY lodges.


That's true, but I did not obtain my GLoNY materials directly from the GL, nor have I ever made that specfic claim.  They were purchased legally from a seller via Ebay.  The GLoNY certainly intended them for use by the Craft in its jurisdiction, but their intent does not carry the cover of civil or criminal law, and has no sway over my actions.  I'd guess the person selling them, if a NY Mason, might be subject to Masonic legal action, but that's about it.  As I noted, mine was legally purchased; therefore, I am entitled to them.  To say the intent of the GL is binding on non-Masons is neither logical nor a legally accurate view.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

Ashlar said:


> So Skip , you are merely going to take ol' Larry's word for it


Yep.  You don't have to if you choose not to.  You may research the topic for yourself.



> a prosecuting attorney made the statement of this copyright infringement , but the GL does not wish to pursue it due to the cost.


And you took his word for it?



> I guess I may take some authors book , their intellectual property , place it in CD format and sell it then . Am I correct in this assumption ?


Yes, as long as you don't violate copyright law in in the process.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## Ashlar

T.N. Sampson said:


> Yep.  You don't have to if you choose not to.  You may research the topic for yourself.
> 
> And you took his word for it?
> 
> Yes, as long as you don't violate copyright law in in the process.  Cordially, Skip.



I will take the word of an attorney over Larry Kunk anyday of the week .

You can not be serious !? Making a profit off of someone's copyrighted material IS VIOLATING COPYRIGHT LAWS ! That is one of the MAIN REASONS for copyright laws ! You can not be that blind can you !?


----------



## widows son

You are entitled to nothing that is Masonic. Period. You are a Cowan and an eavesdropper. Your obsession to bring it down entitles you to absolutely nothing. Cowan.


----------



## widows son

He clearly is blind


----------



## phulseapple

T.N. Sampson said:


> That's true, but I did not obtain my GLoNY materials directly from the GL, nor have I ever made that specfic claim.  They were purchased legally from a seller via Ebay.  The GLoNY certainly intended them for use by the Craft in its jurisdiction, but their intent does not carry the cover of civil or criminal law, and has no sway over my actions.  I'd guess the person selling them, if a NY Mason, might be subject to Masonic legal action, but that's about it.  As I noted, mine was legally purchased; therefore, I am entitled to them.  To say the intent of the GL is binding on non-Masons is neither logical nor a legally accurate view.  Cordially, Skip.


Please provide me, through a PM, with the contact information of the person you obtained the NY materials from.  As a MM in a lodge under the jurisdiction of the GLoNY, I have every right to know sold you those items so that I may investigate further.  You personally, as a non-mason, do not have any right to be in possession of those materials, period.  You have not earned that right, no matter what you may believe.  In the ritual book, it clearly states that they are intended for use by Master Masons and is to be returned to the GL upon the release of a new version or the death of the member in possession of it.


----------



## phulseapple

widows son said:


> He clearly is blind


And clearly believes he is entitled to anything he wants.....in this case, he has not earned that right, nor will he ever.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

widows son said:


> What I'm trying to say is tolerance can only go so far.


We are in agreement here.  But if you can make the statement that Freemasonry is a worthy organization, then I can take the opposite view under the same logic.  We tolerate each others viewpoint, as both of us have the right to our positions.  Now if a man took the view that all members of a group should be murdered, that's something neither of us would tolerate.  Similarly, if a man's views against Freemasonry could not be backed up by fact, neither of us would tolerate that either.  So, where we draw the line between tolerance and intolerance is the key to it all.



> Again another reason i think you would be denied membership is because you are looking for christ in freemasonry,


I beg to differ.  That is totally wrong as, like you, I already know he cannot be found in Freemasonry.



> if you interpreted your Masonic research properly you would find that Masonic behavior demands the highest standards of of morality and citizenry by it members, which in some cases exceeds the christian behavior standard.


I think you are wrong on both counts.  As I have pointed out, Masonry only demands that its members live up to their own moral standards.  Christianity demands that they live up to God's standards.  I doubt if any of us actually live up to either.  O, wretched men that we are!



> As for my implication, it was directed to you skip and here's why: correct me if I'm wrong but you believe in the literal translation of the bible. Word for word. Truth or should i say fact.


I think you are conflating two things.  First, the Bible can be translated many ways, the most common being literal (word for word) and thought-for-thought (what they meant)  I prefer the literal, which is really the translation of the words they used in the Hebrew/Greek books to their modern English equivalents.  The second element is the infallibility and inerrancy of the original manuscripts.  It is more true to say I believe that the Bible is inerrant (no errors of fact) and infallible (reliable about spiritual matters).  I prefer the literal translations, such as the NIV 1984, to any other translation, but any translation is acceptable as long as it faithfully keeps to the meanings of the manuscript record.



> Jesus taught the simple values of love, honesty, and belief in God.  That's it .


He taught far more than that, including the fact that no one comes to God except through him.



> Now your church leaders are the authority in your  specific faith,


Again, that is not true.  My Bible is the source of my authority, and the indwelling spirit my guide.  Any church I attend must use the Bible as its authority.



> They condemn freemasonry and others in the quotes I cited because they don't conform to their beliefs of "christianity," or " christian behavior."


If you mean the churches which condemn Freemasonry do so on Biblical grounds, you are correct.



> That mindset allows you to assume things about Freemasons that simply aren't true and are without foundation of fact.


Others may have that mindset, but I do not.  If you've read my criticisms elsewhere, you will note that they are firmly based on Masonic GL documentation, which is truly the authority for Freemasonry within the various juisdictions.  Quite simply, I don't assume much about Freemasony, but have concluded much based on what Freemasonry says about itself and what it teaches.



> As for the Fatherhood of God, the Torah or old testament which is part of the holy book, which to you is factual and historical, states that the Israelites are Gods children and chosen people only.  Who's to say that Jews aren't right and Christians have it Wrong?


Each of us can make that determination for himself, so both outcomes can be reached.



> We know that Jesus was a Jew, and that Christianity would not exist without Judaism. We also know that the old testament said that man will worship God only, and it seems that Christians worship Jesus and the saints more than God itself.


You should be careful in casting too wide a net.  We worship Jesus because he is God, not a separate being.  Catholics certainly worship the saints, but not 'Christians' in general.  Catholic doctrine includes the dead as part of the church, and the 'worship' (our characterization, not theirs) of those made saints is seen as beneficial.  But it's not an essential 'Christian' belief.  As to Judaism, you might want to consider that God set apart the Jews as the race through which the Messiah would come.  I'm not really sure he classified them as his children, though; I'd have to check on that.  He did indeed choose them for that honor, but once the prophecy was fulfilled, the way was opened for all men to become children of God, through faith in Jesus.  Again, this is Christian doctrine 101.



> Also the Koran states that those who don't worship Allah will be punished,


Again, be careful on such statements.  The Allah of the Koran is unrestrained by anything, and is descrbed as a being of pure will.  Thus, anything he does is right, and he can punish or not punish anyone, regardless of belief.  One of the reason Muslims have been so anti-science over the years is due to that 'free will' element of Allah's nature.  Christian scientists over the years did their research with the assumption that God had specific laws in effect; essentially, they wanted to read his mind about his creation.  Muslims long fought that view as it would impede on Allah's free will.



> but reveres Jesus as a prophet and Christians and Islamist hate each other.


The Koran rejects the Biblical view of Jesus, which their view of Jesus is one reason that Muslims hate both Christians and Jews.  Christians were taught to hate Muslims for one reason:  Muslim attacks against Christians have been ongoing and relentless since the 7th century.  The intolerance Muslims brought to bear against Christians and Jews was eventually learned and used by Christian armies.  There is a view out there that has, with some credence, pointed out that Christianity was a pretty pacifistic religion up until the Islamic holy wars drove them nearly to extinction. 



> Now biblical and theological study has shown us that these three faiths recognize the same God, the God of Abraham.


I'd like to know your sources because that conclusion is false.  One only need read the Koran to see that Allah is nothing like the God of the Bible, nor is the Muslim Jesus anything like the real one.  Whoever told you that all three 'recognize' the same God is simply ignorant of the facts.



> the Koran features biblical stories, characters, and landmarks.


I've found it interesting that the Koran also changes the elements of the Biblical stories it copies.  In my view, the Koran is a mess from any investigatory viewpoint and is probably nothing resembling what Mohammad actually taught.



> at the core, every religion is about peace, love for God and thyself, which I think we can at least agree on.


No, we can't.  Islam, in general, is not about peace at all, but about warfare, hatred and violence.



> Skip I think your the only one who doesn't believe in equality in the eye of God on this forum.


I hope not, as that would make me the only Christian viewer who understands the implications of John 1:12-13.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

Ashlar said:


> You can not be serious !? Making a profit off of someone's copyrighted material IS VIOLATING COPYRIGHT LAWS !


A true statement, but an issue different from your question, which asked:





> I guess I may take some authors book , their intellectual property , place it in CD format and sell it then .


I answered 'yes' for this reason:  once a book has entered the public domain, anyone can take the book, someone's 'intellectual property' and repackage it for sale. 1923 is currently the year for books to leave copyright status and enter the public domain.  Kessinger Publications has made an industry of this practice.

So, yes you can take someone's intellectual property, place it on a CD and sell it, as long as it's in the public domain.  But no, you cannot do the same to property still under copyright.  And now you know.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

widows son said:


> He clearly is blind


Well, I once was....  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## Traveling Man

> Well, actually it was. The SBC came out of the Baptists who fought against slavery from their establishment in America in the 18th century on. They certainly did lose their way after the Revolution, but have apologized for it since. Not sure I've ever seen a Masonic GL apologize for the same thing, but I might have missed it. At least one GL has had a black GM.


 
Well actually it wasnâ€™t the SBC, and I knew you were not a Mennonite. They didnâ€™t need to apologize for the abhorrent crime against humanity.

So far I havenâ€™t seen a Masonic GL that practiced slavery, but I can see that you are so full of hatred that you would seem to think so. But then again we (Freemasons) didnâ€™t spread the lie of Ham either! Twist things as you may, but the facts remain.

You might want to rethink this thing out again as you have been told by many clergy and their wives whom sit on the SBC/HMB, you all have more pressing matters than trying to assassinate Freemasonry. How many SBC members do you think are Freemasons, verses the percentage that are not, slim pickings, huh?

If you really think that Freemasons have a plan for salvation, or that we pray to a different G_d than you do, you are truly delusional.

This sort of reminds me of the madman I saw at the zoo the other day. He thought the zebra was a horse and somehow if he yelled at it loud enough and long enough, it would be come the horse he saw in his mind.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

phulseapple said:


> Please provide me, through a PM, with the contact information of the person you obtained the NY materials from.  As a MM in a lodge under the jurisdiction of the GLoNY, I have every right to know sold you those items so that I may investigate further.


I truly sympathize with you and understand your anger; however, I must respectfully decline to provide that information.

I will, however, in respect for your request, ensure this material is returned to the GLoNY at some point prior to my death, and ensure that action is codified in my will in case of accidental death.  I make that offer in all sincerity.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## widows son

Masonic behavior standards are determined by the laws of the land that the mason is residing and  by his faith so if he is a Christian and American then the laws of God and the constitution are binding to him. But since certain aspects of freemasonry require the member to respect and tolerate other peoples view points  this is were it exceeds that of Christianity. We are not wretched creatures, in fact we are the culmination of creation, we just haven't  realize our place and potential in the universe yet. By you believing that the bible is fact and infallible has severe repercussions. Those stories of the bible were written down thousands of years ago and can't really apply, other than allegorically, to a modern mindset, unless you devolve your mindset to suit it. Psychology has done many experiments on people who are fanatical fundamentalists, and their thought patterns and has conclusively determined that these people  are delusional and can be classified as clinically insane ( Religulous Bill Maher) As a species we are rapidly evolving and and many fields of science such as physics, particle physics, chemistry, archeology, astronomy,noetics, as well as social sciences are leading some to a new understanding of spirituality and our relationship with God , and is painting a new picture of our role in the Cosmos. I truly think that as Jew Jesus wouldn't say that the only way through God is through him, as that is blasphemous of the Jewish faith, however recent evidence has proven that many attributes of Jesus were voted on during the council of Nicea during the reign of Constantine. Constantine was a patron of the cult of Mithra and high priest of Sol Invictus. He also was protector of christianity because he saw power in numbers. Many of Mithras attributes are identical with Christ such as the halo, the virgin birth, born on December 25th.  One similarity is Christ died on the cross for humanity and Mithras slayed the bull for humanity. And when we look further back we see other cultural heroes and religious figures who share these attributes as well.  I and many biblical and archeological researchers believe that this was due to the fact that Christianity was dire to compete with other more popular religions, not due to a vision that Constantine saw.  Your story book authority is on shaky foundation of exaggeration and politics. Where in the bible does Christ condemn freemasonry? There are numerous Christians who are freemasons, who are of the reform sects that do not believe so.  Your GL information would prove to you that any of the accusations made against freemasonry on the grounds of being global conspiracists, satanist etc are false. What freemasonry says of itself is that it takes good men and makes them better, through teaching of fidelity, fraternity and brotherly love. As for Judaism YOU may want to consider that the old testament God is the Christian God and God says that the Israelites were Gods children and he would deliver them to the promise land as Gods children. Deuteronomy 14:2 states: "For you are a holy people to YHWH your God, and God has chosen you to be his treasured people from all the nations that are on the face of the earth." this stems for the covenant made between God and Abraham, hence the major 3 religions worship the God of Abraham. Even the term messiah is Jewish and was a concept created during the Roman occupation to signify a leader of the Israelites who would defeat their enemy, not literally the coming of God as again that would be blasphemous to judaism.  Now your comments regarding Islam are hateful and ignorant and don't belong on a masonic forum of tolerance and i take offense to that as I have friends who are loving and devote Muslims. Now in genesis God created all the universe, every single atom. We are just beginning to understand the vastness of the universe. To create something on the Magnitude of the universe God would have to be unrestrained by anything. Our existence is Gods pure will as we our created in his image. In the old testament God is repeatedly describe as being jealous, spiteful and vengeful, often killing those who are in his opposition. Remember this is your God.  The first problem i have with " Christian scientists" is that Christian and scientist are in the same category. There are many Christians in scientific fields as I stated above, but christian science isn't a real science. In fact its a joke. As for Muslims being anti science, here's a list of scientific inventions made by Muslims from the 7th century to the 17th century: 
1. Coffee
2. Pinhole camera
3. Chess 
4. Parachute
5. Shampoo
6. Refinement( distillery)
7. Crank shaft
8. Metal Armor
9. The pointed arch
10. Surgery
11. Vaccination
12. Fountain pen
13. Windmill and bridge mill
14. Numerical numbering 
15. Soup
16. Carpets
17. Pay cheques
18. Spherical shape of the earth( concept)
19. Rocket and torpedo
20. Gardens
21. The discovery and isolation of Acetic acid, Citric acid, Nitric acid, sulfuric acid, hydrochloric  acid, and Tartaric acid
22. Tin glazing
These are some of the inventions that you could not live without.  As you can see Muslims are quite the contrary to being anti scientific, in fact I believe Christianity was the only one faith that was and in some cases still is anti scientific ( biblical museum in kentucky.) As for Muslims hating Christians you are wrong, that is fundamentalist propaganda, only in recent time has there been wide spread hostility to Christians and westerners. There are examples of brutality against Christians by Muslims in the past, but the majority of it was isolated and due to conquest, consequentially other populations and ethnicities succumbed to the Muslim sword side by side with Christians. I think a more accurate statement would be that
Muslims were increasingly hostile to Christians due to the crusades, which was just an excuse to unite Europe with the pope as the ruler. And finally as for the big 3 worshipping the god of Abraham: all three claim that God made a covenant with Abraham, God in the old testament and in the Koran are very similar, both Christianity and Islam holy texts stem for the Torah. The Abrahamic god in this sense is the conception of God that remains a common attribute of all three traditions. In all of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Baha'i Faith God is conceived of as eternal, omnipotent, omniscient and as the creator of the universe. God is further held to have the properties of holiness, justice, omni-benevolence and omnipresence. As the creator, adherents of Abrahamic faith believe he is also transcendent, meaning that he is outside space and outside time and therefore not subject to anything within his creation, but at the same time personal and involved, listening to prayer and reacting to the actions of his creatures. As for some sources here you go: Derrida, Jacques (2002). Anidjar, Gil. ed. Acts of Religion. New York & London: Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-92401-6.
Assmann, Jan (1998). Moses the Egyptian: the memory of Egypt in western monotheism. Harvard University Press. ISBN 978-0-674-58739-7.
Barnett, Paul (2002). Jesus & the Rise of Early Christianity: A History of New Testament Times. InterVarsity Press. ISBN 978-0-8308-2699-5.
Blasi, Anthony J.; Turcotte, Paul-AndrÃ©; Duhaime, Jean (2002). Handbook of early Christianity: social science approaches. Rowman Altamira. ISBN 978-0-7591-0015-2.
de Perceval, Armand-Pierre Caussin (1847) (in French). Calcutta review – Essai sur l'histoire des Arabes avant l'islamisme, pendant l'Ã©poque de Mahomet, et jusqu'Ã  la rÃ©duction de toutes les tribus sous la loi musulmane. Paris: Didot. OCLC 431247004.
Dodds, Adam (July 2009). "The Abrahamic Faiths? Continuity and Discontinuity in Christian and Islamic Doctrine". Evangelical Quarterly 81 (3): 230–253.
Firestone, Reuven; American Jewish Committee, Harriet and Robert Heilbrunn Institute For International Interreligious Understanding (2001). Children of Abraham: an introduction to Judaism for Muslims. Hoboken, NJ: KTAV. ISBN 978-0-88125-720-5.
Freedman H. (trans.), and Simon, Maurice (ed.), Genesis Rabbah, Land of Israel, 5th century. Reprinted in, e.g., Midrash Rabbah: Genesis, Volume II, London: The Soncino Press, 1983. ISBN 0-900689-38-2.
Guggenheimer, Heinrich W., Seder Olam: The rabbinic view of Biblical chronology, (trans., & ed.), Jason Aronson, Northvale NJ, 1998
Kritzeck, James (1965). Sons of Abraham: Jews, Christians, and Moslems. Helicon.
Greenstreet, Wendy (2006). Integrating spirituality in health and social care. Oxford; Seattle, WA: Radcliffe. ISBN 978-1-85775-646-3.
Johansson, Warren (1990). "Abrahamic Religions". In Dynes, Wayne R.. Encyclopedia of Homosexuality. New York: Garland. ISBN 978-0-8240-6544-7.
Longton, Joseph (1987–2009). "Fils d'Abraham". In Longton, Jospeh. Fils d'Abraham. S.A. Brepols I. G. P. and CIB Maredsous. ISBN 2-503-82344-0.
Massignon, Louis, "Les trois priÃ¨res d'Abraham, pÃ¨re di tuos les croyants", Dieu Vivant, 13, (1949) 20–23.
Masumian, Farnaz (1995). Life After Death: A study of the afterlife in world religions. Oxford: Oneworld Publications. ISBN 1-85168-074-8.
Reid, Barbara E. (1996). Choosing the Better Part?: Women in the Gospel of Luke. Liturgical Press.
Scherman, Nosson, (ed.), Tanakh, Vol.I, The Torah, (Stone edition), Mesorah Publications, Ltd., New York, 2001
Smith, Jonathan Z. (1998). "Religion, Religions, Religious". In Taylor, Mark C.. Critical Terms for Religious Studies. University of Chicago Press. pp. 269–284. ISBN 978-0-226-79156-2.
Smith, Peter (2008). An Introduction to the Baha'i Faith. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-86251-6. Skip I'd like to kind of use your words again. "I've found it interesting that the christians also changes the elements of the Biblical stories it copies. In my view, the Christian fundamentalism ( and Muslim) is a mess from any investigatory viewpoint and is probably nothing resembling what Jesus actually taught." "Fundamental Christianity in general, is not about peace at all, but about warfare, hatred and violence. Again skip here are some "christian quotes" "Not only is homosexuality a sin, but anyone who supports fags is just as guilty as they are. You are both worthy of death." American Fred Phelps leader of the Westboro Baptist Church
"I donÂ´t know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." Former American President George Bush. "Homosexuals are weak, morally sick wretches." American Jesse Helms who was a Republican Senator. "I'd like for you to take - but your paper might not allow you to do it - and that is to take the Jewish element in the ACLU which is trying to drive Christianity out of the public place, and I'd like to see you do the something objective there. Because the ACLU is made up of a tremendous amount of Jewish attorneys." (Taped interview with the Los Angeles Times, November 14, 1990) BILLY McCORMACK (Director of the Christian Coalition)  "There is no such thing as separation of church and state. It is merely a figment of the imagination of infidels." [Taped interview at the Republican National Convention (9/6/84)]W.A. CRISWELL (Senior Pastor of Dallas's First Baptist Church) 
Skip after reading these quotes you have no right to call a Muslim hateful or violent. Who cares what John 1: 12-13 says. That was written too long ago for me to care. We are all a way for the universe to observe itself and you are completely and utterly wrong to say we are not equal. Again your basing your opinions off other people opinions, and are therefore not your opinions


----------



## Ashlar

T.N. Sampson said:


> A true statement, but an issue different from your question, which asked:I answered 'yes' for this reason:  once a book has entered the public domain, anyone can take the book, someone's 'intellectual property' and repackage it for sale. 1923 is currently the year for books to leave copyright status and enter the public domain.  Kessinger Publications has made an industry of this practice.
> 
> So, yes you can take someone's intellectual property, place it on a CD and sell it, as long as it's in the public domain.  But no, you cannot do the same to property still under copyright.  And now you know.  Cordially, Skip.



And NO Skipper , if a book is revised or the copyright is updated to keep the copyright in good standing then it can not be repackaged and resold . The Ky Monitor HAS NEVER been in the public domain as the copyright has been kept up to date no matter the year said Monitor being repackaged and resold was printed  . The only time anyone's intellectual property becomes "public domain" is when they owner's of said property fail to update their copyright and allows it to lapse . And now you know .

ETA: And now I am done with you . You are truly blind .


----------



## phulseapple

T.N. Sampson said:


> I truly sympathize with you and understand your anger; however, I must respectfully decline to provide that information.
> 
> I will, however, in respect for your request, ensure this material is returned to the GLoNY at some point prior to my death, and ensure that action is codified in my will in case of accidental death.  I make that offer in all sincerity.  Cordially, Skip.


And why is it that you decline?  Is it that you did not truly get them in the manner that you described?  Must be, because if you were truly the upright person you try to claim you are, you would honor my respectful request.  And, by the way, you have yet to see me angry.  Anger is an emotion that we Masons are so far above that you profane cannot comprehend it.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

Ashlar said:


> And now you know .


I already knew, as my post indicated.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## widows son

Treacherous


----------



## BryanMaloney

Ashlar said:


> And NO Skipper , if a book is revised or the copyright is updated to keep the copyright in good standing then it can not be repackaged and resold . The Ky Monitor HAS NEVER been in the public domain as the copyright has been kept up to date no matter the year said Monitor being repackaged and resold was printed  . The only time anyone's intellectual property becomes "public domain" is when they owner's of said property fail to update their copyright and allows it to lapse.



That's about as wrong as wrong can be. Under US law, there is no such thing as perpetual copyright that can be endlessly renewed. If a work was under copyright before 1978, then it can be renewed for up to another 76 or 95 years (depending on certain details), but no more, under US law. Under US law, all copyrighted works eventually will enter the public domain. Like very many people with no on-the-job working knowledge of intellectual property law, you confuse copyright and trademark law. I've had to work with patent and copyright for years as a biologist.


----------



## CajunTinMan

That is a mute point if the item in question is less then 76 years old then it is still a violation.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

Traveling Man said:


> So far I havenâ€™t seen a Masonic GL that practiced slavery,


I don't think organizations can 'practice' slavery, but individual Masons certainly have.  Worse they carried their viewpoints into the political environment.  The list of famous Masons includes a large number of racists.  More to the point, U.S. Masonry excluded blacks from membership for centuries.  Historically, the 'brotherhood of man' did not count for much if a man's skin were black or his faith were Catholic in the eyes of many GL's.  Fortunately for us all, those practices have pretty much come to an end.



> but the facts remain.


Indeed they do, and they are stubborn things that just don't go away.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

phulseapple said:


> And why is it that you decline?


Let's just say that I protect my sources.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## phulseapple

T.N. Sampson said:


> Let's just say that I protect my sources.  Cordially, Skip.



Riiiiight...If that is the story you are going to go with.....


----------



## Traveling Man

T.N. Sampson said:


> I don't think organizations can 'practice' slavery, but individual Masons certainly have. Worse they carried their viewpoints into the political environment. The list of famous Masons includes a large number of racists. More to the point, U.S. Masonry excluded blacks from membership for centuries. Historically, the 'brotherhood of man' did not count for much if a man's skin were black or his faith were Catholic in the eyes of many GL's. Fortunately for us all, those practices have pretty much come to an end.
> 
> Indeed they do, and they are stubborn things that just don't go away. Cordially, Skip.



And this comes to mind: "And why worry about a speck in *your* friend's *eye* when you have a *log in your* own? *...*


----------



## widows son

Catholics were threatened with excommunication if they joined freemasonry. Catholics excluded themselves from freemasonry, freemasons did not exclude Catholics. Skipper.


----------



## timgould

Coming into Masonry from within the Ministry took me YEARS. There is a lot of bad information out there. Mostly, from the Christian perspective, there is a big question about Freemasonry being a "cult". With the absence of counter information, these claims go unanswered and cause a lot of good men to stay away from Freemasonry. I know it did for me. 
But, once I learned a very basic principle... that freemasonry is NOT a religious organization, but a secular fraternity that accepts, and upholds biblical morality, I found the organization very comfortable. I throughly enjoy it. I also tell every christian man I know, when they see my ring, or cap, and look at me with question, what freemasonry is all about.  
We, as a group, in my opinion, need to embrass the questions. There is nothing to fear since we hold to Truth. Most things that are publicized as "questionable" are merely things not understood due to the antiquity of our fraternity. We do many things because of tradition and let's face it, many now a days don't see a lot of value to holding to tradition. 

We are a fraterity. a LONG lasting fraternity with a rich tradition. We do things allorically for reasons known to us. It is part of our tradition. The best way to understand it, is to join and experience it. Then all the questions will be answered and fears will be dismissed. There is nothing about our fraternity to offend the moral conscience.


----------



## widows son

Well said brother


----------



## phulseapple

timgould said:


> We are a fraterity. a LONG lasting fraternity with a rich tradition. We do things allorically for reasons known to us. It is part of our tradition. The best way to understand it, is to join and experience it. Then all the questions will be answered and fears will be dismissed. There is nothing about our fraternity to offend the moral conscience.


This is something the profane cannot fully understand through reading.  They can read all the works by all the authors out there, but all that reading will not gain them the full understanding of what the Fraternity is REALLY about.  It doesn't work that way, and was never designed to work that way.


----------



## widows son

I think he's getting the point, he hasn't really directly responded to any of our statements, cant process the info.


----------



## Traveling Man

Hey Skip:



> You might want to rethink this thing out again as you have been told by many clergy and their wives whom sit on the SBC/HMB, you all have more pressing matters than trying to assassinate Freemasonry. How many SBC members do you think are Freemasons, verses the percentage that are not, slim pickings, huh?



And here's todays news...





From USA Today:

Religion in America Pew pollâ€¦

The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life released an analytic study today titled, Nones on the Rise, now that one in five Americans (19.6%) claim no religious identity.

This group, called "Nones," is now the nation's second-largest category only to Catholics, and outnumbers the top Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptists. The shift is a significant cultural, religious and even political change.

One in three (32%) are under age 30 and unlikely to age into claiming a religion, says Pew Forum senior researcher Greg Smith. The new study points out that today's Millennials are more unaffiliated than any young generation ever has been when they were younger.

"The rise of the Nones is a milestone in a long-term trend," Smith says. "People's religious beliefs, and the religious groups they associate with, play an important role in shaping their worldviews, their outlook in life and certainly in politics and elections."

Now I'll state again, don't you think your efforts should be directed elsewhere? _Adios and vaya con dios_ *... *:001_huh:


----------



## widows son

People 101 skip.


----------



## CajunTinMan

A small correction. In Louisiana we have quiet a few Catholics in the Lodge. But that wouldn't matter to Skip anyway because I stopped by E/511 just to check it out and on there I saw them attacking Catholics as being non-Christian. His ramblings aren't about enlightening anyone. It's about wanting to attack anything HE deosn't agree with. So I guess thats just another one of those places that "If you ain't us, you ain't right". I could care less what he thinks of me or what I do.


----------



## MarkR

He loves engaging in this type of debate.  It's what he lives for.  The best thing is just to ignore him.


----------



## phulseapple

He does, no matter how misinformed or off the mark he may be.


----------



## widows son

I can just see him now. Copy and pasting our words on to some anti life blog


----------



## phulseapple

widows son said:


> I can just see him now. Copy and pasting our words on to some anti life blog



Not all of them, just the ones that fit his agenda.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

CajunTinMan said:


> I saw them attacking Catholics as being non-Christian.


"them?"

I think you have mischaracterized my remarks.  My criticisms are generally against organizations, not their adherents.  As well, if the Catholic Church can state that those not baptised are condemned, I can take the opposing view.  Freedom of speech, and all that.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## widows son

How people's remarks have you mischaracterized skippy?


----------



## phulseapple

T.N. Sampson said:


> "them?"
> 
> I think you have mischaracterized my remarks.  My criticisms are generally against organizations, not their adherents.  As well, if the Catholic Church can state that those not baptised are condemned, I can take the opposing view.  Freedom of speech, and all that.  Cordially, Skip.



A case in point where you only pick and choose.  The actual quote was 


CajunTinMan said:


> I stopped by E/511 just to check it out and on  there I saw them attacking Catholics as being non-Christian.


So yes, "them" is accurate.  Meaning you AND the other anti's at E511.  Don't trip on your back peddling.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

widows son said:


> How people's remarks have you mischaracterized skippy?


None.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

phulseapple said:


> The actual quote was


Nope, the actual quote was:





			
				CajunTinMan said:
			
		

> But that wouldn't matter to Skip anyway because I stopped by E/511 just to check it out and on there I saw them attacking Catholics as being non-Christian.


I wondered why he used the word 'them' when I was apparently the subject.  I'm not really a 'them.'  

But the point remains:  I generally criticize organizations, not people.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## phulseapple

T.N. Sampson said:


> Nope, the actual quote was:I wondered why he used the word 'them' when I was apparently the subject.  I'm not really a 'them.'
> 
> But the point remains:  I generally criticize organizations, not people.  Cordially, Skip.


No, you are not a them, as the pronoun *you* is singular.  The them refers to you AND the other 3 members of E511.  Collectively the four of you are a them.  Since all of you were discussing the topic....simple grammar.  But don't forget rhetoric, and logic as they are needed as well.


----------



## widows son

You lie a lot out of your teeth for a guy who's "mission" is for christ. I guess lying isn't included in your obscenities list


----------



## CajunTinMan

T.N. Sampson said:


> "them?"
> 
> if the Catholic Church can state that those not baptised are condemned, I can take the opposing view.  Freedom of speech, and all that.  Cordially, Skip.



Now you have just confused the crap out of me. Your argument against the Catholic Church is their requirement of Baptism to enter Heaven?  You claim to be a Christian but take an opposing view to this?  I could understand if you claimed to be Jewish or Muslim but you claim to be Christian and isn't that one of the tenants of the Christian faith?  Have you found your own path to salvation Skip?  Does the name David Koresh ring a bell? And yes I said "them" before.  You and I both know it was the proper use of the word.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

CajunTinMan said:


> Your argument against the Catholic Church is their requirement of Baptism to enter Heaven?


No, I was using their salvific view of baptism to make a point.  Essentially, any group can make a claim, and the freedom they have to make such claims also justifies another in stating an opposing view.



> You claim to be a Christian but take an opposing view to this?  I could understand if you claimed to be Jewish or Muslim but you claim to be Christian and isn't that one of the tenants of the Christian faith?


Roman Catholic doctrine views baptism as an act of salvation, and the person undergoing the sacrament is forgiven of his sins and regenerated by the Holy Spirit. In fact, a person cannot be saved if he has not been baptized, according to the Church.  This is one reason that Catholic couples try to get their infants baptised as soon as practical.

Protestants and Baptists do not agree with that doctrine.  We view baptism as an act of obedience, an outward sign of an inward change.  Faith, and faith alone, are what saves a person.

Again, my point is this:  in the marketplace of ideas, the Church is free to promote this doctrine and I am free to rebut it.  Both sides would agree to that, and neither side would consider coming to blows over it, at least not in this country, as we both agree that it's God's job to condemn, not ours.  Hope this clarifies things.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

widows son:
Given the wide ranging nature of your post #150, I'm going to respond to it in different threads on the Philosophy, religion and spirituality sub-forum.  The material doesn't really fit into this thread.  If the moderators do not agree, I'm sure they will take whatever action is necessary.  There are, however, a few things that can be addressed directly:


widows son said:


> Masonic behavior standards are determined by the laws of the land that the mason is residing and  by his faith so if he is a Christian and American then the laws of God and the constitution are binding to him.


That pretty much confirms what I noted earlier, that a Mason's morality is pretty much determined by himself.  But in noting that behavior standards are not absolute, you've given permission for the Muslim Mason to involve himself in a jihad involving the death of others as it is approved by his faith.  I think God's command Do not murder is an absolute one, precluding religious-motivated murders. 



> Again your basing your opinions off other people opinions, and are therefore not your opinions


I disagree.  I base my conclusions on documents which are authoritative within Masonic GL's.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## CajunTinMan

Oh I see Skip. Your a strict legalists.  Your trying to use cannon law to condemn Catholics.  I knew of another group that did things like this, maybe you've heard of them, there were the Pharisees.  You are trying to do the same thing here by trying to twist the words of good men.  As far as the Catholic Church saying that Peter was their first Pope. So what. Christ said his Church was to be built upon him. So if they want to claim that he was the first leader of their Church then wouldn't that be correct. Personally Skip, I attend a non-denominational biker church. That probably bothers you too.  A place, where ex thieves and former prostitutes are just thankful to be saved and to have their live changed.  You know, the kind of place where Christ would have hung out.


----------



## T.N. Sampson

CajunTinMan said:


> Your trying to use cannon law to condemn Catholics.


Not so.  I'm using the Catholic Catechism to answer your question.



> As far as the Catholic Church saying that Peter was their first Pope. So what. Christ said his Church was to be built upon him. So if they want to claim that he was the first leader of their Church then wouldn't that be correct.


Not necessarily, but they can claim it none the less.



> I attend a non-denominational biker church.


What's its name?  I'd be interested in reading their statement of faith.  Cordially, Skip.


----------



## Traveling Man

T.N. Sampson said:


> What's its name?  I'd be interested in reading their statement of faith.  Cordially, Skip.


Because he would like to condemn them too!!!

Is there any other faith here that this bigot hasn't manage to offend?


----------



## widows son

It appears that I can't find your thread in the the said sub forum. It was there


----------



## widows son

Well skip is banned. Almost a month running his
Mouth,


----------



## phulseapple

It is usually a sad thing when someone is banned, however in this case it is for the best.  He has an agenda and a mindset that will not be changed.  I may not agree with his literal views, but I do wish him well just the same.


----------



## widows son

I would like to apologize if at anytime my comments to skip relating to religion or politics offended any brothers on this forum. No offense intended, the facts I presented were to show him that he was in the wrong and that his twisted view of reality can be justified with his version of "facts.". Again I would never go out of my way to offend any of you.


----------



## timgould

Likewise I want to ask forgiveness to all the brothers out there for Skip. His zealousness does NOT represent the True Christian Faith.


----------



## Virgin Islands Brother

Skip was an interesting character, to say the least. However, one thing his presence did crystallize for me--we should not talk religion. If we are not to do so in lodge, I cannot see how it would benefit us here.


----------



## widows son

I don't think a healthy debate isn't uncalled for, or presenting some information that may be useful, he was a narrow minded guy who was intolerant that doesn't understand what a debate is.


----------



## CajunTinMan

A respectful debate leeds to understanding.  I don't have to agree with the person but it does help to know where they are coming from.


----------



## widows son

I agree. There should be nothing wrong with a healthy debate, or presenting information respectfully. But I think in the situation here a guy like skip needs to be contested with, because people like him have been giving a our order and ourselves a bad name for far too long, as I for one won't stand for it, and will defend all of us.  His narrow mind and ignorance wasn't allowing him to interpret Masonic information, and thus warping it into some twisted version of history where by he and his religion were to be a new age crusading army, bent on destroying freemasonry and other groups who don't bow down to Pat Robertson.  I will admit his comments about Islam and Muslims really got I me only because I have very close friends who are of the Islamic faith and have their family ties to the middle east. We love to debate. I love questioning them on their views and they to me. But at the end of the day we are still friends and have more respect for each other because we do it in a non confrontation, and respectful way. They don't hate Christians, Jews or masons. They don't believe in a jihad, and although they have no desire to be masons, they do not have an urge to destroy it. Their parents and grandparent grew up during the Islamic revolutions and are strict observers of the Islamic faith, and they too say try do not hate western civilization. According to them it's usually people who hold government positions or high positions in their society and don't represent the civilian populations sentiments.  Again I apologize if I offended any brothers on this forum during the heated debate with skip. But he needs to be aware that masonry isn't going to sit back anymore.


----------



## Frater Cliff Porter

I think there is a difference between lovingly and Masonically learning about religion and discussing it...and proselytizing and degrading somebody else.


----------



## Frater Cliff Porter

I would never stop doing something because some idiot like Skip can't handle himself appropriately.  That is why I am a Mason and not a member of Skip's church.


----------



## widows son

Agreed.


----------



## CajunTinMan

I think you mean the church of Skip


----------



## widows son

It's scary that there's 100's of thousands of people like skip


----------



## CajunTinMan

It's ok Brother. It has always been this way. In the end it just adds to our mystique. People fear what they do not understand.


----------



## widows son

That is true. But is freemasonry really a concept that is hard to understand? In my opinion no. Skip refuses to believe things that disprove his own beliefs. The symbols and ritual and even inner workings at first seem a bit complicated but careful examination reveals that it is not. I'm still learning the inner workings aspect of the craft and i have a good understanding of the ritual, but by no means do I know exactly what the degrees teach in full, as I believe many years of contemplation will help that light grow. Rationality is what I believe helps drive our order   Brother Manly P Hall in his book "the secret teachings of all ages" dedicated his work to "Rational Soul of the World."


----------



## BryanMaloney

What I am beginning to think I see is that the inner workings are the simplest part of Masonry, which means they are the hardest part to really get ones head around.


----------



## widows son

Simplicity can complex in a complex world


----------



## Virgin Islands Brother

(It's scary that there's 100's of thousands of people like skip)

You are so correct. Last week, once again, one of them broke a Bro.s side passenger window glass. It's sad that there are enough spaces to park outside the lodge, but we can't because of this problem.


----------



## widows son

Brutal. I truly believe freemasonry needs to step up to the plate and sit back no longer. The Internet, the greatest transmitter of information will be the downfall of our craft...that is if we let it


----------



## widows son

I am preparing some work on anti masonry to present to my lodge for the good of the order. Any info that can help this cause would be greatly appreciated.  I think our brethren cozuld benefit from this information and can help raose our order to the status it deserves. Once I have completed it I will gladly email it to anyone here who would like to use it in their lodge. All I ask is that the credit for the work goes to where it is due. Thx brothers


----------



## BryanMaloney

Anti-masonry is a non-issue in terms of US membership numbers (adjusted for population). The worst years for membership loss in the USA were roughly 1990-2000. Since then, while masonry has lost members annually, the rate of decline has leveled off and started to reverse its previous ever-accelerating trend.

PS: The "best" year for masonry in the USA was not 1959, either. When adjusted for adult male population, the "best" year on record is actually 1926, and it has been a net loss since. There was a brief resurgence in the middle of the 20th century, but it never reached the 1926 level.


----------



## widows son

Thx, is that your own words though? If not please cite your reference. I only say this so ppl can cross check for themselves, and also for credibility. Again thanks for the info brother


----------



## JJones

> Brutal. I truly believe freemasonry needs to step up to the plate and sit back no longer. The Internet, the greatest transmitter of information will be the downfall of our craft...that is if we let it



If you want, I'll PM you the address for a great conspiracy site and you can see the degree of 'success' other brethren have had trying to convince people about the truth.  Then again, it might be good for your research if nothing else. 

On the other hand, I think a presentation on the matter is a -great- idea and I'd love to see the finished product.


----------



## widows son

I'll email or to you when it's done. I'm doing it more for the brethren to take into lodge and educate the other brethren on the issue. I think most of the old guys dot really know how bad it is and they need to know the facts.


----------



## widows son

JJones please do


----------



## BryanMaloney

widows son said:


> Thx, is that your own words though? If not please cite your reference. I only say this so ppl can cross check for themselves, and also for credibility. Again thanks for the info brother



US masonic total membership can be had from the Masonic Service Association of North America.
US population figures can be had from the US Census.
It's a matter of simple division: masons/adult male population


----------



## widows son

Right, but is it your division? I only ask so I don't miss cite work and can potentially get in some trouble.


----------



## BryanMaloney

I did the math in that particular case, but anyone can take the numbers and do the math.


----------



## widows son

Gotcha. Thx for the info. I've got about a 2 page intro so far. I think it's a good start


----------



## BryanMaloney

Give me a day or two and I can send figures that map the entire trend from the mid 1920s.


----------



## widows son

Take your time brother, when ever you can find the time.


----------



## jjjjjggggg

As a former fundamentalist Christian I can understand why freemasonry would clash with their beliefs. I have a friend, a fundamentalist Christian Baptist, has asked me about freemasonry. We haven't spoke in depth yet, but knowing that freemasonry finds its roots in gnostic/hermetic thought, with a touch of universalism, I don't think freemasonry would be a good fit for him. However, I have friends who are both fundamentalists and freemasons who seem to be able to meld both ways of life just fine... and being a novice, I'm not sure yet how to approach the issue (as I also have reservations about what topics can be broached as to not reveal our secrets).


----------



## widows son

I think the key is if they feel freemasonry would be compatible with their beliefs. No matter how convincing you can be, it is ultimately up to them to make that choice. I wouldn't push too hard.  


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


----------



## dmbarr964

I agree widows son good advice


Hoc Signo Vincam


----------



## dfreybur

jamie.guinn said:


> However, I have friends who are both fundamentalists and freemasons who seem to be able to meld both ways of life just fine...



They sure get itchy when brothers start discussing what Masonry actually is and how our symbols work.  I'm past being an apologist for antis and having interest in watering down Masonry for it to have a wider appeal.  I suggest that getting itchy means there's a mind expanding experience inside itching to get out.  I have come to think that seeing a brother get itchy when such topics are discussed is a good thing.


----------



## jjjjjggggg

Dfreybur, well said!


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App


----------



## Warrior1256

Considering some of the totally crazy things that I have heard and read that Freemasonry is blamed for whenever someone asks me why I want to join the Freemasons I usually laugh and tell them that if they have the kind of mind set to believe the ridiculous things that they hear then there is no use trying to reason with them.


----------

