# Just a few concerns... or curiosities



## Derek Barclay (Oct 23, 2015)

Hey guys,

I entertained the idea of petitioning to join the Scottish Rite lodge in Dallas a while back. I eventually lost interest because I felt I could never reconcile my beliefs, or lack thereof, with the rules of the fraternity.

Some things left me genuinely perplexed so I'd like to ask yall about them.

Why is there, seemingly, an emphasis on formal attire and rituals? So often those things seem, to me, to be mistaken for having intrinsic meaning. I was asking the head of a different local lodge about attending a public get-together at a bar, and he informed me the attire was formal. I informed him that I only own jeans and t-shirts, and he said that was fine so long as I did not feel intimidated or offended (can't remember which) by the others being dressed formally. This truly confused me. I thought of it the other way around. I didn't want them to take offense at my lack of "proper dress."

Also, the notion that 'God' is an absolute term is something I can't understand, atleast not yet. Do I believe in a master plot to life, no. But I often find myself feeling/thinking about life, in general, the way many people do with regard to 'God.'

Any thoughts on these ramblings?


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## BroBook (Oct 23, 2015)

If you do not believe that there is a power higher than all, freemasonry is not for you.


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 23, 2015)

What do we mean when we say 'power'? I don't believe that mankind is the pinnacle of evolution. I'm not even sure if such a thing could exist. I do genuinely want to discuss these things with yall because they seem to matter. At the very least, they're interesting. Beats talking 'bout football


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 23, 2015)

Deists seem to still conceptualize some kind of universal ego or consciousness. I don't.


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## Glen Cook (Oct 23, 2015)

I draw your attention to question 30 in the link.  It's either Yes or No.  

As to the dress, some lodges are quite informal. Others are more formal. 

http://grandlodgeoftexas.org/pdf/forms/26.pdf


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 23, 2015)

Hey Glen, I appreciate the response. I know yall probably hear people bring this up alot, and I'm not intending to be frivolous in asking it.

Clearly the question 'Do you believe in God?' is more complicated than simply 'Yes' or 'No'.


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## Glen Cook (Oct 23, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> Hey Glen, I appreciate the response. I know yall probably hear people bring this up alot, and I'm not intending to be frivolous in asking it.
> 
> Clearly the question 'Do you believe in God?' is more complicated than simply 'Yes' or 'No'.


But that isn't the only question there, is it?  

It is you who must declare Yes or No, on your honor. No one here can answer it for you.  We can't define G-d for you.  You must do that. 

It may also be that your beliefs aren't sufficiently formed to answer the question.  That's ok.  When and if they are, you may look at the questions again and see how you would answer honorably.


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 23, 2015)

Sorry, I thought you said question #26. Looking at question #30 I can honestly answer 'no', as far as I can tell. 

I don't believe I form my beliefs; rather, my beliefs form me.


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## Glen Cook (Oct 23, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> Sorry, I thought you said question #26. Looking at question #30 I can honestly answer 'no', as far as I can tell.
> 
> I don't believe I form my beliefs; rather, my beliefs form me.


Note, I did not say you form your beliefs.


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 23, 2015)

If beliefs are out of our control, why require a declaration of certain beliefs in order to fraternize?

In order to simplify, for my benefit, I'd compare it to how I "choose" my friends. If one has a desire to learn and a willingness to admit their ignorance, that seems like a person I'd want to associate with.

I don't know. Please know that I'm not offended in any way for not being "accepted." I'm just trying to figure it out.

I assume the overall purpose of the order is to eliminate unnecessary suffering in the world, though I'm sure I'm mistaken about that as well, and I view divisiveness a key contributor to that.


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## Glen Cook (Oct 23, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> If beliefs are out of our control, why require a declaration of certain beliefs in order to fraternize?
> 
> In order to simplify, for my benefit, I'd compare it to how I "choose" my friends. If one has a desire to learn and a willingness to admit their ignorance, that seems like a person I'd want to associate with.
> 
> ...


See the discussion here: http://www.myfreemasonry.com/thread...uire-a-belief-in-god.25316/page-5#post-150230

I had not heard that as a purpose of Freemasonry


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## Bill Lins (Oct 23, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Mainstream Grand Lodges have declared the genuine secrets to be lost.  If so, the overall purpose of the order may equally be lost.


The purpose of Freemasonry is no secret and is plainly and clearly stated: To take good men and make them better. No more & no less.


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 23, 2015)

What is about being atheistic that deems a man not good, or unable to be bettered? If nothing, why care? Why compartmentalize life?

I may move my questioning to the other thread that Glen shared.


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 24, 2015)

But do they understand that and view it as a point of weakness? Diversity is necessary for strength.


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 24, 2015)

I suppose the question was rhetorical. They obviously don't view it as a weakness. I'm trying to understand why.


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## dfreybur (Oct 26, 2015)

On dressing up -

My career was reaching the point where I had to do presentations.  Some of them in suit and tie.  To me it was an advantage in life to become comfortable in formal attire.  After enough practice I can now walk around in a tuxedo as naturally and as easily as I see in James Bond movies.  If I can handle a tux, I can handle any sort of attire required by any profession.  There are jobs that never require dressing up but they are not the professional jobs.

Dressing up is highly correlated with career advancement.  No one has to like the fact but it remains a fact.  There is a pragmatic advantage to dressing up.

On ritual -

Memorized ritual is the same across generations.  An entire body of symbolic meaning can be encoded in such a ritual and stored there.  A generation can grow up thinking the group's purpose is social and charitable with almost no members paying attention to the encoded symbolic meaning but it remains there intact.  Then a new generation can study the ritual and there it is to be found.  Exactly this has happened at least once with Masonic ritual.

On requiring a belief in a supreme being -

A friend told me he did not believe in religions but he was interested in petitioning a lodge.  We had lunch for a year discussing the issue.  He did believe in a supreme being but he had read too much history of abuse by humans in charge of religious institutions to participate.  Once he understood that we don't require participation in a religious institution he petitioned.  In the years since he became a Mason he became more generous in his approach to institutions and is now okay with them.   Not sure if this is similar to your situation.

In the end it's required because we require it.  We need enough in common to be able to start building ourselves into a family.  A man of faith can chose to have faith in us and so we can have faith in him.  Having that faith is needed for it to end up mutual.


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## coachn (Oct 26, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> ...Clearly the question 'Do you believe in God?' is more complicated than simply 'Yes' or 'No'.


Clearly it is for you.  For most though, it is not complicated at all. 

Furthermore, if you were sincerely contemplating joining the SR, you would have already known from the petition and before you posted here that you had to be a Blue Lodge member first. 

You're trying to involve us in a conversation that is obviously premature. 

So, what's your game Derek.


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## coachn (Oct 26, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> ...I don't believe I form my beliefs; rather, my beliefs form me.


Personal Responsibility and accountability Derek.  You must believe in free-will for any of this to work OR be understood.  Otherwise, how would you convince others that it was actually you that was making your choices and decisions of your *OWN FREE-WILL AND ACCORD?  *That's how it works! (or doesn't...)


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## coachn (Oct 26, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> What is about being atheistic that deems a man not good, or unable to be bettered? If nothing, why care? Why compartmentalize life?


Moot point.  It's neither the argument nor the issue. 

The requirements for joining are the requirements for joining.  Either choose or claim that you have something else choose for you because you are unable to do so for yourself.


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## coachn (Oct 26, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> But do they understand that and view it as a point of weakness? Diversity is necessary for strength.


Moot Point Also.  The requirements for joining are put before all who choose to petition.  Choose.


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## coachn (Oct 26, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> I suppose the question was rhetorical. They obviously don't view it as a weakness. I'm trying to understand why.


Yes, and you have already indicated that you are not in control and hence there is no free-will behind your question and equally the capacity to accept a requirement without an answer that fits what controls you.  See the game being played out here Derek.  It is you that can't accept that a requirement exists that doesn't require a reason that fits your world view.  No matter what the response, you're choosing not to see it for what it is:  A choice that separates out believers from non-believers.  It's a winnowing process that works toward the very end that is desired by those who join.


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## Ressam (Oct 26, 2015)

Gentlemen!
I've created a New Thread named -- "Causes of Crisis. The Time Game" in Philosophy/Religion Part.
But it had disappeared! Why?


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 26, 2015)

coachn said:


> Clearly it is for you.  For most though, it is not complicated at all.
> 
> Furthermore, if you were sincerely contemplating joining the SR, you would have already known from the petition and before you posted here that you had to be a Blue Lodge member first.
> 
> ...


Brother hes mentioned in another thread that he petioned an irregular lodge.  So its probably one of those john g jones SR clandestine deeelywops


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## coachn (Oct 27, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Brother hes mentioned in another thread that he petioned an irregular lodge.  So its probably one of those john paul jones SR clandestine deeelywops


<sigh> thanks.  makes sense...


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## NY.Light.II (Oct 27, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Brother hes mentioned in another thread that he petioned an irregular lodge.  So its probably one of those john paul jones SR clandestine deeelywops



Explain the reference? As in chevalier John Paul jones?


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## dfreybur (Oct 27, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Brother hes mentioned in another thread that he petioned an irregular lodge.  So its probably one of those john paul jones SR clandestine deeelywops



In the US any lodge that starts with SR is clandestine.  Not so in other countries.


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## junae (Oct 27, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> Hey Glen, I appreciate the response. I know yall probably hear people bring this up alot, and I'm not intending to be frivolous in asking it.
> 
> Clearly the question 'Do you believe in God?' is more complicated than simply 'Yes' or 'No'.


It shouldnt be a hard question, Do you love your Mom,Grandmom,kids's]ect... that is not hard to answer, you know deep down inside you, that just that you are questionong this seriously you may just be waiting to find the Proof, but, you think theirs one and Want their to be one, but, may have had to many hardships to think that nothing is watching over us. only Maybe..


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 28, 2015)

dfreybur said:


> In the US any lodge that starts with SR is clandestine.  Not so in other countries.


Hes from Texas


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 28, 2015)

NY.Light.II said:


> Explain the reference? As in chevalier John Paul jones?


Correction John G Jones

http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/johnjones.php


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 28, 2015)

dfreybur said:


> In the US any lodge that starts with SR is clandestine. Not so in other countries.


Good info, thanks brother.


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## Bill Lins (Oct 28, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Hes from Texas


We have a buttload of clandestine GLs here.


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 28, 2015)

coachn said:


> Furthermore, if you were sincerely contemplating joining the SR, you would have already known from the petition and before you posted here that you had to be a Blue Lodge member first.


I mispoke. I toured the Scottish Rite Temple in Dallas. I understand that the degrees involved with SR are extra and one must achieve or complete the first 3 degrees of "standard"? Masonry.



coachn said:


> You're trying to involve us in a conversation that is obviously premature.


I'm really just trying to have a conversation - to see where it leads. I've already had a couple of lightbulbs go off. If we were speaking in person, I don't think I'd be pushing it because ya know, we all things to do. But this is a forum for talking about Freemasonry, so I figured it'd be okay.



coachn said:


> So, what's your game Derek.


I've been sincere in everything I've said, John.



coachn said:


> Moot point. It's neither the argument nor the issue.


But...it is the point... This is the topic of discussion.



coachn said:


> Either choose or claim that you have something else choose for you because you are unable to do so for yourself.


It's both. I tried to explain that, but it's difficult to find the words.



coachn said:


> See the game being played out here Derek. It is you that can't accept that a requirement exists that doesn't require a reason that fits your world view.


I really don't, John.
I'm not objecting to anything. I'm simply using these discussions as an opportunity to grow. Am I choosing to do so?... I do not know.



jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Brother hes mentioned in another thread that he petioned an irregular lodge.


I investigated a regular lodge first. After learning of the requirements for entry, I started investigating alternatives. I was accepted - though never went through initiation - into the order of La Droit Humain based out of Colorado Springs.



NY.Light.II said:


> As in chevalier John Paul jones?


The Triquetra? 



dfreybur said:


> In the US any lodge that starts with SR is clandestine.


I thought SR stood for Scottish Rite.



junae said:


> It shouldnt be a hard question, Do you love your Mom,Grandmom,kids's]ect... that is not hard to answer, you know deep down inside you, that just that you are questionong this seriously you may just be waiting to find the Proof, but, you think theirs one and Want their to be one, but, may have had to many hardships to think that nothing is watching over us. only Maybe..


I thought I answered it to be honest. "Do you believe in a supreme being?" "I don't know."


Do yall think all human beings are fundamentally identical?


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 28, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> One of the interesting aspects veiled by Jacob's Ladder is that there are various grades of mental substance.


I'm not particularly asking you to do so, but would it not be more effective to speak literally? If allegory is a veil, to speak in such a manner seems to allude to an intention to obscure truth. Can truth be found without allegory? Is all truth found or can it be made?



JamestheJust said:


> for example from grinding the teeth.


I almost started laughing while I read this because literally as I read the line my mother started grinding her teeth (something she does in her sleep).


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 28, 2015)

I hope so man.


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## coachn (Oct 29, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> I'm really just trying to have a conversation - to see where it leads. I've already had a couple of lightbulbs go off. If we were speaking in person, I don't think I'd be pushing it because ya know, we all things to do. But this is a forum for talking about Freemasonry, so I figured it'd be okay.


Sure, on the surface, it appears harmless, but I've experienced far too many of these types of gentle "let's throw a lot of other hot-button things into the mix" inquisitions to not recognize the subtle manipulations, the hidden agendas at play and the end game.  You're playing a game and it is not a nice one. 


Derek Barclay said:


> > > Derek Barclay said: ↑
> > > What is about being atheistic that deems a man not good, or unable to be bettered? If nothing, why care? Why compartmentalize life?
> >
> >
> ...


It is not the point.  The point is entry requirements; it is not and never will be: 1) the goodness of non-believers, 2) inability of non-believers to be bettered, 3) compartmentalizing life.  Bringing these into the "discussion" only clouds the issue.  And you appear to be very good at clouding the issue to stir the pot of un-necessary discussion.


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 29, 2015)

coachn said:


> the hidden agendas at play and the end game. You're playing a game and it is not a nice one.


I'm just talking about the nature of belief and the nature of nature. If there's a game being played I'm unaware. Can you not choose to disengage? I wish my text didn't sound dismissive or defensive because that's not my intent. Are you implying that I'm trying to draw something out of you? I am. Ideas.


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## dfreybur (Oct 29, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> I thought SR stood for Scottish Rite.



Starts why I wrote that any lodge that *starts* with the SR is automatically clandestine in the US.  In the US all jurisdictions trace their lineage to a point before French lodges designed the Scottish Rite.  In the US the Scottish Rite is always in addition to, optional to and after the first three degrees.

In the US any jurisdiction that has the word Scottish in its name and conducts the first three degrees is clandestine.  The three SR organizations in the US are not grand lodges.  They are appendent bodies.

SR ritual books do have the first three degrees.  Any US jurisdiction that uses these rituals or rituals derived from them are automatically clandestine.

In the US it depends on the local jurisdiction it presenting one of those first three degrees as an exhibition on a man who is already a Master Mason is allowed.  Some states allow such exhibitions for educational purposes.  Some states do not.



> I thought I answered it to be honest. "Do you believe in a supreme being?" "I don't know."



Then you are not qualified to be adopted into our family.



> Do yall think all human beings are fundamentally identical?



I'm with brother Coach N on this.  By tossing such questions into the mix you have demonstrated that your motivations are those of an anti.  You have been told in several ways why we require candidates to have faith but you have discarded those answers.  Now you move directly on to other questions used by antis.  Pass.  I'll see if the ignore function is still available as soon as I have posted this message.


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## coachn (Oct 29, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> I'm *just* talking about the nature of belief and the nature of nature.


Careful, you're justifying yourself and it's not accurate in appearance.


Derek Barclay said:


> If there's a game being played I'm unaware.


Oh please, give it a break.


Derek Barclay said:


> Can you not choose to disengage?


That's not the point though, is it?


Derek Barclay said:


> I wish my text didn't sound dismissive or defensive because that's not my intent.


It's far more than these and it's obvious to anyone who has been around these forums.  And your intent appears to be questionable.


Derek Barclay said:


> Are you implying that I'm trying to draw something out of you? I am. Ideas.


No. I am not.  I am stating from your meandering methods, you appear to not be what you profess and your stated goals appear to be out of unity with the manner to which you are engaging.


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 29, 2015)

I think that's just what the building is called - Scottish Rite Cathedral of Dallas. They have many lodges that meet there, and I think all of them are recognized by the GLoT.

I don't think yall are doing anything sinister. I really am just naive. 

I'll leave it alone.


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## Ressam (Oct 29, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> Do yall think all human beings are fundamentally identical?



Of course.
[Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and *all ye are brethren*]
We are all same, on The Earth.
The God's Law is One for everyone.
Spiritual Development is -- same for all human beings.


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## chrmc (Oct 29, 2015)

dfreybur said:


> SR ritual books do have the first three degrees.  Any US jurisdiction that uses these rituals or rituals derived from them are automatically clandestine.



Not to mince words or derail the conversation, but there are a couple of lodges in Louisiana that confer the first 3 degrees, but uses SR ritual fully sanctioned and regular under the GL. Etoile Polaire No1 in New Orleans is probably the most well known.


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 29, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> A well-satisfied inquirer!


Huh? 



... Perhaps I can't ...


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Oct 29, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> Do yall think all human beings are fundamentally identical?


I believe that all human beings a number of human components such as a body, intellect, emotions, etc.  That we share the common experience of living on the same planet and that we are all moving forward together through time.  Is that close enough to meet your definition of "fundamentally identical"?


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 29, 2015)

"One man practicing kindness in the wilderness..."

Brothers, something is happening. There's...something on the wing...some......thing!


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## Derek Barclay (Oct 30, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> Brother, you put us to shame.


Why do you say that? With my previous post, I was implying that a shift in my thinking is occurring. These discussions are doing something to change my outlook on things, apparently for the better.

Edit: I think I may be misinterpreting your meaning.

Another edit: Haha, nevermind. I shouldn't rush to think the worst. Sorry.


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## MarkR (Nov 1, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> How will the widespread rejection of incumbent parties affect Freemasonry?


I don't see the connection.


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## Derek Barclay (Nov 1, 2015)

I'm surprised we haven't moved away from the two-party system yet, but it is happening. The leading Democrat is actually an independent and the leading Republican isn't even a politician. You heard me.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 1, 2015)

JamestheJust said:


> There is indeed something on the wing and it can be seen in many aspects of human society, particularly politics.
> 
> How will the widespread rejection of incumbent parties affect Freemasonry?


I suspect much in the same manner as the raspberry crumble I had for my dessert last night.


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## Ressam (Nov 1, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> I'm surprised we haven't moved away from the two-party system yet, but it is happening. The leading Democrat is actually an independent and the leading Republican isn't even a politician. You heard me.


Why it's happenin'?
Could you, please, explain?


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## Derek Barclay (Nov 1, 2015)

Ressam said:


> Why it's happenin'?


Because the public is becoming more informed.


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## Ressam (Nov 1, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> Because the public is becoming more informed.


The Public?

Who's "the public"? And "informed" about what?


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## NY.Light.II (Nov 1, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> Because the public is becoming more informed.



Or because they are more populist driven and willing to support demagogues, willing to vote for those who embody the memes associated with popular opinion, in which the public may in fact remain uninformed.


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## Derek Barclay (Nov 1, 2015)

They all try to appeal to the masses. That's how they win the election. It does seem to me that we are all in this together, however, and that is not based on emotion or fear. Rather, it's based on reason and love. Love is not without reason. Though there are many who would disagree, I simply don't see it that way.


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## Ressam (Nov 1, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> They all try to appeal to the masses. That's how they win the election. It does seem to me that we are all in this together, however, and that is not based on emotion or fear. Rather, it's based on reason and love. Love is not without reason. Though there are many who would disagree, I simply don't see it that way.


Why U.S. is using "Indirect System" in Presidential Elections?!
Dayum! *Al Gore* must have been The President in 2000 Elections!
But, of course, may be it was for the benefit of humanity.
Only God knows.


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## Classical (Nov 1, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> "One man practicing kindness in the wilderness..."
> 
> Brothers, something is happening. There's...something on the wing...some......thing!



I always read that quote in my best Shatner voice!


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## Glen Cook (Nov 2, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> "One man practicing kindness in the wilderness..."
> 
> Brothers, something is happening. There's...something on the wing...some......thing!


Are you a Mason?


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## Derek Barclay (Nov 2, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> Are you a Mason?


No Glen, I'm not.


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## coachn (Nov 2, 2015)

Classical said:


> I always read that quote in my best Shatner voice!


I, always, hear, that, quote, in, my, best, Shatner, voice.


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## Derek Barclay (Nov 2, 2015)

If you guys don't mind, take a listen and be honest with me. Do you hear potential? 
https://soundcloud.com/derek-barclay-104816130/change-is-gonna-come


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## Glen Cook (Nov 2, 2015)

Derek Barclay said:


> No Glen, I'm not.


You referred to us as brothers. In this forum that carries a particular connotation


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## Derek Barclay (Nov 2, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> You referred to us as brothers. In this forum that carries a particular connotation


Sorry, Glen. I thought most participating in this thread were aware that I am not a Mason. I call people I don't even know 'brother.'


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## Glen Cook (Nov 2, 2015)

In


Derek Barclay said:


> Sorry, Glen. I thought most participating in this thread were aware that I am not a Mason. I call people I don't even know 'brother.'



Understood, but as it has a particular connotation in this forum, you may wish to use another term.


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## Derek Barclay (Nov 2, 2015)

I understand.


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