# Conducting Business on the EA Degree



## CLewey44 (Sep 28, 2017)

I wanted to get your opinions on this. Would you gentlemen be in favor or against conducting most or all tyled meetings on the EA degree? Also, would you be opposed to allowing members that are first or second degree to be some of the 'lower' officer positions? We often complain about guys not understanding the work and are often rushed through. If we conducted business on the EA degree this would allow for more participation from the EAs and FCs without feeling rushed.  Therefore creating better Masons perhaps and not just parrots that can recite back some Q&A session?. Allowing them to sit in JS/SS positions or even some of the FCs as deacons may be a good idea. Would this create a more emotional investment in the fraternity? Any thoughts?


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## HoldenMonty (Sep 28, 2017)

That is an interesting idea. Would have to get the Grand Lodge of your jurisdiction on board but I think if we had some new people coming in and we had some then it seems like it could be done in EA or FC. I remember after I got my 3rd then I was told that I could make a motion and voice my thoughts in the open lodge as long as I addressed the WM in the proper way and was acknowledged before speaking. It does make me wonder why they originally opened in the MM instead of EA or FC. It would make sense though that if you had enough people that they tyler could be an EA or FC since they are suppose to sit on the outside of the outside door.


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## MWS (Sep 28, 2017)

In my jurisdiction we open and do all our business in the EA, only knocking up for degree work or installation. I prefer it this way. All officers must have returned proficiency as a MM, but any work can be done by any member (of the degree, of course). I also prefer this and it allows the officers to take a break from time to time, esp. the JW when as he has enough on his plate.


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## Brother JC (Sep 28, 2017)

CA conducts all stated communications in the First. They only go up for degrees. NM opens at the WM’s discretion, usually based on who’s attending.


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## rpbrown (Sep 28, 2017)

We are allowed to open and conduct all business in an EA or FC except receiving a grand lodge officer or for degrees above whoever is present. They are allowed to sit in for votes but not allowed to vote.


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## CLewey44 (Sep 28, 2017)

I visited in TX once and they were open on the EA degree and voted while the EA was present but he wasn't allowed to vote.


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## David Duke (Sep 28, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> I visited in TX once and they were open on the EA degree and voted while the EA was present but he wasn't allowed to vote.



This is correct, it is up to the WM as to what Lodge is opened. We have 2 Stated Meetings a month we normally open on the Masters the first and EA the second unless we are receiving a GL officer at that meeting. 


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## Bloke (Sep 28, 2017)

UGLV Lodges all open on the First Degree and then move up if needed. When closing, the Lodge is returned to the first degree before the lodge is closed.

EAs have full voting rights in a Lodge. They cannot be made MMs for at least 52 weeks after they are initiated (a newer rule). The great advantage in opening and closing in the first is that it includes newer members in the lodge discussions and such. I am a big fan of this.


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## CLewey44 (Sep 28, 2017)

I think giving more of those rights, lights and benefits progressively is good. Maybe let FCs vote and serve up to SD since it was HA in the JW spot. EAs up to stewards, Marshall or other similar spots that some states  (or countries) have.


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## Glen Cook (Sep 28, 2017)

Dated, but see http://bessel.org/firstdeg.htm


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## MarkR (Sep 29, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Dated, but see http://bessel.org/firstdeg.htm


Yep, we can open and conduct business on any degree, at the will and pleasure of the WM.  So, we open on whatever degree we need to accommodate the lowest-degreed brother present (except when we're going to confer a degree; then we obviously open on that degree.)

As for making EAs or FCs officers, that I would not be in favor of.  For one thing, to have someone who is not a voting member sitting in an officers' chair seems counter-intuitive.  Also, they couldn't sit in their chair on evenings when we're going to be conferring a degree higher than they hold.  It doesn't take all that long to become a MM; many lodges have to rush people in to the officer line as it is; let's not exacerbate that problem.


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## Mike Martin (Sep 29, 2017)

In the Home Grand Lodges all business is conducted in the First Degree and a Lodge will usually resume to it and re-admit EAs in order to carry out general business, votes, etc following a Degree Ceremony or Ceremonies.


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## CLewey44 (Sep 29, 2017)

MarkR said:


> Yep, we can open and conduct business on any degree, at the will and pleasure of the WM.  So, we open on whatever degree we need to accommodate the lowest-degreed brother present (except when we're going to confer a degree; then we obviously open on that degree.)
> 
> As for making EAs or FCs officers, that I would not be in favor of.  For one thing, to have someone who is not a voting member sitting in an officers' chair seems counter-intuitive.  Also, they couldn't sit in their chair on evenings when we're going to be conferring a degree higher than they hold.  It doesn't take all that long to become a MM; many lodges have to rush people in to the officer line as it is; let's not exacerbate that problem.



Yes, I can see where degrees would be a problem. In those cases, you'd have to have a MM do them anyways. It seems most of the time that people filling the roles in say, the MM degree, are not even the actual JD, SD, etc and so on. But in lodges that do prefer to use the actual officer member, that'd be a problem when conferring higher degrees. Good point.


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## Thomas Stright (Sep 29, 2017)

We have 2 stated meeting every month, 1st and 3rd Tuesdays.
2nd Tuesday is opened in EA.

I know when I was an EA, being able to attend 1 meeting a month was a blessing.

We also do not confer degrees on those nights.


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## Ripcord22A (Sep 29, 2017)

Both NM and OR can work on any degree the WM chooses.  I prefer the MM def only because it doesn't take so long.....lol.....I want to get to the discussion/deg/presentation of the night, I don't need to hear where and why the treasurer is where he is


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## CLewey44 (Sep 29, 2017)

That's true. Give me the big 3's reasons and I'm good with that.


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 29, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Both NM and OR can work on any degree the WM chooses. I prefer the MM def only because it doesn't take so long.....lol.....I want to get to the discussion/deg/presentation of the night, I don't need to hear where and why the treasurer is where he is


Agreed. Here in Kentucky regular meetings can only be opened on the MM degree. However, this year there will be a vote at Grand Lodge  as to whether the Master can open on a lesser degree. For a few reasons I am in favor of keeping it as is.


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## Ripcord22A (Sep 29, 2017)

Can I ask what those reasons are?


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## MarkR (Sep 30, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> Yes, I can see where degrees would be a problem. In those cases, you'd have to have a MM do them anyways. It seems most of the time that people filling the roles in say, the MM degree, are not even the actual JD, SD, etc and so on. But in lodges that do prefer to use the actual officer member, that'd be a problem when conferring higher degrees. Good point.


It's not just that; he couldn't even be there for the opening of lodge!


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 30, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Can I ask what those reasons are?


One that was brought up recently is that some small lodges that are just hanging on as it is would sometimes not be able to open on the with 7 or more. My main reason is simply a personal one. I think that you should have to attain MM status to attend meetings. JMHO.


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## Ripcord22A (Sep 30, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> One that was brought up recently is that some small lodges that are just hanging on as it is would sometimes not be able to open on the with 7 or more. My main reason is simply a personal one. I think that you should have to attain MM status to attend meetings. JMHO.



As for the seven or more the lodge would not have to open on the EA simply would be able to open on the EA. Someone on here can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe I read somewhere that jurisdictions that allow EA's and Fellowcraft to attend stated meetingshave a higher activity and retention rate with newer brothers.  I can respect your opinion but let me ask you this brother the new EA has paid his fee and gone through the initiation should he not receive a part of the lights rights and benefits of his degree? In both the jurisdictions in which I hold membership PAs and Bella crabs are not only allowed but encouraged to attend meetings, they are not allowed to vote but they are allowed to take part in lodge discussions and when discussing something dealing with the lodge itself are allowed to speak but again they are not allowed to vote so really they are just stating an opinion and a feeling on the matter. I know I know when I was initiated and later past I attended the meetings in between my degrees granted it was only one or two meetings in between my degrees as I was a fast learner but I still wanted to be there and get to know the brothers and get to know what I was joining, I was about to become a part of, and I think thatis what has kept me active during my time in the craft especially with all the times I've moved.  As long as we guard the Westgate we don't have anything to worry about shady figures joining our lodge just to figure out what we're doing in there and then never take the second and/or 3rd°, and in my opinion I'd rather that happen then then get the 3rd° and they never come back


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## CLewey44 (Sep 30, 2017)

MarkR said:


> It's not just that; he couldn't even be there for the opening of lodge!



I would say in those cases that you'd definitely have to have MMs fill in those positions. However, FCs would be allowed to do them on EA and other FC degree night and obviously EAs would be available on EA degree nights. The only time they would not be allowed would be on MM degree night which isn't that common anyways then the simple solution would just be to have other MMs do the degree work.


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 30, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> As for the seven or more the lodge would not have to open on the EA simply would be able to open on the EA.


Not as it is being proposed here. The legislation up for vote in the Grand Lodge this year is that the members of each lodge can vote whether or not the lodge will open on the EA. If the vote passes then the lodge MUST open on the EA unless or until the lodge holds another vote to open only on the MM degree and this passes.


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## David Duke (Sep 30, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> ..... If the vote passes then the lodge MUST open on the EA unless or until the lodge holds another vote to open only on the MM degree and this passes.



I definitely don't like this being the only option. 

when we first began opening on the EA I was saw the benefit but was against it because I felt you should "earn" the right and still do to some extent. But I must say after seeing the excitement of the EAs and FCs in being allowed (no voting) it has won me over. The reason we do alternate openings MM then EA is that when we started it we went exclusively EA we went a few months without having a MM degree and when we did you could tell we were out of practice. Doing alternate openings keeps everyone fresh and on their toes. 


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## Warrior1256 (Sep 30, 2017)

David Duke said:


> I definitely don't like this being the only option.


Same here.


David Duke said:


> when we first began opening on the EA I was saw the benefit but was against it because I felt you should "earn" the right and still do to some extent.


This is the way that I look at it now. If we start opening on the EA and I see positive things would I change my mind? Very possible. I always try to keep an open mind.


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## Ripcord22A (Sep 30, 2017)

And paying the initiation degree fees and being regularly initiated in to a lodge of EAs hasn't earned him to right to sit in a lodge of EAs?


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 1, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> And paying the initiation degree fees and being regularly initiated in to a lodge of EAs hasn't earned him to right to sit in a lodge of EAs?


That's not what I am saying at all. I am saying that, at this point, I am against opening regular meetings on anything but the MM degree.


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 1, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> That's not what I am saying at all. I am saying that, at this point, I am against opening regular meetings on anything but the MM degree.



But why?


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 1, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> But why?


For the reasons that I stated in #21 and #24.


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 1, 2017)

24 you say cause GL proposal is that the lodge MUST open on the EA, ok I get that I don't like GL saying we HAVE to do something like that either.  
In 21 you say your personal opinion is that a Bro should have to be MM to attend meetings. I ask why should they be MMs?   You also say that smaller lodges would struggle with the 7 or more, to that I say even though a lodge of MMs says 3 or more in reality a lodge iot to open needs @ least 6.....T, JD,SD, JW , SW & WM....so that point is moot(unless ur jurisdiction truly only needs 3) in which case I ask who would attend the alter and who would tyle the lodge?  

So if GL said a lodge COULD open on the EA/FC if an EA/FC was present or just for practice why do you feel only MM are worthy of sitting in lodge for reasons other then watching a degree?  I mean if MM business needs to be conducted then by all means ask the brother to wait outside till that part is done then bring em back....you never know what might happen...Just a hypothetical....there is a petition read in lodge, one of your EAs or FCs know the man and know him to not be an upright man or they just don't get along and brining him in would cause disharmony, if the "young" brothers aren't there they never know until it's too late, if they are aloud in the meeting then they can at least stand and speak,  they don't get a vote but can at least let the lodge know or at a minimum notify a MM if the situation


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## Bloke (Oct 1, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> As for the seven or more the lodge would not have to open on the EA simply would be able to open on the EA. Someone on here can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe I read somewhere that jurisdictions that allow EA's and Fellowcraft to attend stated meetingshave a higher activity and retention rate with newer brothers...



Often said.. but never actually seen it proved....



Warrior1256 said:


> ... My main reason is simply a personal one. I think that you should have to attain MM status to attend meetings. JMHO.



Do your partners or kids ever attend lodge ? Ours do..... It would seem strange to put a brother on the same footing, by only opening on the third degree.

How long does it take for an EA to become a MM - here it is a year, which is a long time to be sitting outside..


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## Bloke (Oct 1, 2017)

(oh... and we encourage brother to attend any rehearsal for a degree they have - this means we sometimes see EAs and FCs and MMs not in office at rehearsal just watching... they learn a lot, both about the degree, the work that goes on, the mechanics of how it works. It also means, if I am looking for someone to do a job or charge, the MMs there get jobs. Next meeting I have a MM who's attended every rehearsal he could since being an EA (being away and rehearsing higher degrees aside), I've actually put him displacing the installed JD because that JD was not showing up...)


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 1, 2017)

Bloke said:


> It would seem strange to put a brother on the same footing, by only opening on the third degree.


Not sure what you mean?


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## David Duke (Oct 1, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> And paying the initiation degree fees and being regularly initiated in to a lodge of EAs hasn't earned him to right to sit in a lodge of EAs?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry



In sitting in an EA Lodge yes; but a Stated Meeting is different; as I said earlier I am one who always felt you should "earn" the right, paying a degree fee and being initiated IMHO does not earn you anything other than the opportunity to learn. 

But as I also said earlier I can truly see the benefits of "granting " the EA and FC the privilege of sitting in on a Stated (business) meeting.  I know during my year in the East I purposely held off discussions of what may have been controversial issues when we were opened on the EA until the next meeting because I felt, and still do that some discussions needed to be held among MM only. Your reply will probably be to ask them to leave the Lodge and I say that would only highlight further or draw more attention to the possible controversy. 

As far as an EA or for that matter a MM standing up in Lodge and talking about a potential candidate, in Texas this is strictly forbidden. Speaking to the WM or even the members of the Investigation Committee yes of course but campaigning in open Lodge for or against a candidate is a BIG no no. 

Once again I will say I truly see the benefit of allowing admission but do not think it should be an absolute right. 


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 1, 2017)

David Duke said:


> In sitting in an EA Lodge yes; but a Stated Meeting is different; as I said earlier I am one who always felt you should "earn" the right, paying a degree fee and being initiated IMHO does not earn you anything other than the opportunity to learn.
> 
> But as I also said earlier I can truly see the benefits of "granting " the EA and FC the privilege of sitting in on a Stated (business) meeting.  I know during my year in the East I purposely held off discussions of what may have been controversial issues when we were opened on the EA until the next meeting because I felt, and still do that some discussions needed to be held among MM only. Your reply will probably be to ask them to leave the Lodge and I say that would only highlight further or draw more attention to the possible controversy.
> 
> ...



In both my jurisdictions discussion on a petition is part of the process, but once voted no discussion.  

A stated meeting in most places is just bills and junk anyways so maybe it is better to keep em out...lol.

I like the idea of not having the "controversial" discussion when they are present, one way to avoid this is to notify the breathren beforehand that it's a MM only meeting.


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## Bloke (Oct 1, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Not sure what you mean?


Sorry, I was not clear. We have our families to lodge sometimes. The non-freemasons cannot enter the lodge meeting. I was making a comparison between our families and an EA who attends a lodge opening on the third - both cannot enter, but one is actually a Freemason...


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 2, 2017)

Ah I get it now....yes I agree!

Several months ago we had a FC deg in NM an EA came to dinner and then waited outside till the deg was over and then accompanied us all to a local cigar bar for drinks and smokes 


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## HoldenMonty (Oct 2, 2017)

Seeing all the discussions I really think it depends on the Jurisdiction, and the Lodge itself. For me when I got my first degree knowing now they opened at the MM level and conducted their business and then lowered it to the EA level to give me my first degree and at the next stated meeting was when I got my FC degree and they did things the same way, and then they had the summer break and then at the next stated meeting was when I got my MM degree but the opened on at the MM level and raised me and then I was able to be apart of the business and felt really special and like I was finally truly apart of the Lodge after I became a MM. I was the first person that voted depends and I stand by my depends because it depends on your Jurisdiction like for me and I think most Lodges in Pennsylvania do it the way my Lodge made me a MM so there really aren't any stated meetings from when you get one degree until you get the next degree then there really isn't a need to open in any other degree then a MM.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 2, 2017)

Bloke said:


> How long does it take for an EA to become a MM - here it is a year, which is a long time to be sitting outside..


An EA can apply for FC 28 days after receiving his EA providing that he can pass his proficiency. The same from FC to MM.


David Duke said:


> In sitting in an EA Lodge yes; but a Stated Meeting is different; as I said earlier I am one who always felt you should "earn" the right, paying a degree fee and being initiated IMHO does not earn you anything other than the opportunity to learn.


Same here.


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## Bloke (Oct 2, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> An EA can apply for FC 28 days after receiving his EA providing that he can pass his proficiency. The same from FC to MM.
> 
> Same here.



it's always going to take an EA not less than 12 months here to get his MM.... and the reality is in a busy lodge.. it can take a lot longer.. we did a batch of thirds this year, because some of those guys were initiated more than 2 years ago... that's a lot of time to be sitting outside, and I know from experience, they will stop comming to every meeting and start to ask how long they can expect to be in the lodge room before deciding if they will show. Not all are like that, but the ones who always show - they always end up being the best members..


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 2, 2017)

Bloke said:


> it's always going to take an EA not less than 12 months here to get his MM.... and the reality is in a busy lodge.. it can take a lot longer.. we did a batch of thirds this year, because some of those guys were initiated more than 2 years ago... that's a lot of time to be sitting outside, and I know from experience, they will stop comming to every meeting and start to ask how long they can expect to be in the lodge room before deciding if they will show. Not all are like that, but the ones who always show - they always end up being the best members..


In this case I would more understand opening in the EA degree. But here in my jurisdiction you can become an MM in a matter of two months  after receiving your EA degree if you work diligently on your proficiency. Therefore, I do not see the need to change the rules to opening on the EA degree.


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## Bloke (Oct 2, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> In this case I would more understand opening in the EA degree. But here in my jurisdiction you can become an MM in a matter of two months  after receiving your EA degree if you work diligently on your proficiency. Therefore, I do not see the need to change the rules to opening on the EA degree.


It would be a big factor.. a few months is nothing and actually incentives the new brother to make progression. Here, progression is controlled and stretched out by our Const - and just the operational pace of the lodges I am in.....


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## MarkR (Oct 3, 2017)

Recently, I traveled to a lodge in the Twin Cities to put on a presentation about my Masonic trip to Scotland, where I saw all three degrees conferred on different nights in different lodges.  Since an EA was present, and I was talking about the differences in the degrees from the way we do things, after I covered the EA section, he was excused from the lodge room and went out into the ante-room to work on his proficiency with his coach while I talked about the FC and MM degrees.  It was really not a big problem.


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## goomba (Oct 3, 2017)

Working mainly on the 3rd degree is a result of the Morgan Affair and Convention of 1843.  So I support going back to working mainly on the 1st degree.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 3, 2017)

goomba said:


> Working mainly on the 3rd degree is a result of the Morgan Affair and Convention of 1843. So I support going back to working mainly on the 1st degree.


I don't quite understand Brother. Could you give a brief explanation?


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 3, 2017)

Cpt Morgan wrote an expose on freemasonry and then was never heard from again.  It was believed he was "dealt" with by freemasons.  So as a way to keep off cowans many US GLs went to only opening on the MM.  there are a few GLs, NJ comes to mind, that don't even have ritual to open on the EA or FC.


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## goomba (Oct 3, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> I don't quite understand Brother. Could you give a brief explanation?



Sorry for the delay.  I work night shift and sleep during the day.

The Morgan Affair prompted a wave of anti-masonic sentiment in the USA.  As a result some grand lodges began looking at ways to prevent bad apples from harming the fraternity.

The Convention of 1843 was a convention requested by GL of Alabama for reps of all US grand lodges to meet.  The purpose of the meeting was to unify the work and address other concerns.  One of those concerns was security.

There was a trestle board (book of work) that was published to help unify the work and the suggestions to open on the 3rd degree unless you were preforming degree work.  I would argue that each of us who have visited other jurisdictions see the unification of work was an utter failure since each GL is different.  I also don't think the 3rd degree requirement worked either.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 4, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Cpt Morgan wrote an expose on freemasonry and then was never heard from again. It was believed he was "dealt" with by freemasons. So as a way to keep off cowans many US GLs went to only opening on the MM. there are a few GLs, NJ comes to mind, that don't even have ritual to open on the EA or FC.





goomba said:


> The Morgan Affair prompted a wave of anti-masonic sentiment in the USA. As a result some grand lodges began looking at ways to prevent bad apples from harming the fraternity.


Thanks. I knew of the Morgan incident but didn't know how it affected the operations of the lodges.


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## jermy Bell (Oct 8, 2017)

Paying bills in any degree. Just gives them a better understanding on the business end of the lodge.


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## Brother_Steve (Oct 10, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Cpt Morgan wrote an expose on freemasonry and then was never heard from again.  It was believed he was "dealt" with by freemasons.  So as a way to keep off cowans many US GLs went to only opening on the MM.  there are a few GLs, NJ comes to mind, that don't even have ritual to open on the EA or FC.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


Correct. We only have ritual to open on the third. The next GM wants to change it so the lodge can open and do business on any degree it wishes.

Saluting the master is going to be fun next year.


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## Brother_Steve (Oct 10, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Thanks. I knew of the Morgan incident but didn't know how it affected the operations of the lodges.


Read up on the Baltimore Convention of 1843. It is very interesting.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 10, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> Read up on the Baltimore Convention of 1843. It is very interesting.


Will do! Thanks.


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## David Duke (Oct 10, 2017)

Brother_Steve said:


> .....,
> 
> Saluting the master is going to be fun next year.



Where that really comes into play is balloting. 


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Oct 10, 2017)

David Duke said:


> Where that really comes into play is balloting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app



It wasn’t as big of an issue as you might think. The year that the GLoTX opened up to EA’s and FC’s I was an Entered Apprentice.

Some of the older Brethren were a little forgetful in the early stages and needed gentle reminders when opening as to what degree the Stated Meeting was being conducted under. However, I was unaware of any slip ups, personally... if you catch my drift.


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## David Duke (Oct 10, 2017)

There are still the occasional slip ups including myself guess I classify now as on if the "older" Brethren 


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Oct 11, 2017)

David Duke said:


> There are still the occasional slip ups including myself guess I classify now as on if the "older" Brethren
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry



Well, the point was directed more to the drawing attention to the mistake more so than the physical age... Masonic age has a LOT to do with it, as in old habits. Our 40 & 50 year Brethren were notorious about balloting in the wrong degree.

It’s amazing what “mistakes” don’t get caught by not so well versed individuals when attention is not drawn to it. 

Of course, in TX the decision is left to the Worshipful Master as to what appropriate degree to conduct the meetings. My year I chose to conduct all of our Stated Communications in the Masters Degree. I always personally enjoyed the extra study time with the Tiler, when I was going through the degrees even though I could go inside the door. I purposely placed a well versed Brother outside as a Tiler for this study. Obviously, this received mixed reviews, but was non the less accepted.


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## dfreybur (Oct 12, 2017)

Opening for business is the worldwide standard.  I favor needing a reason to diverge from the worldwide standard.  it was that way when I petitioned is not in the list of reasons I support.  At this point all 3 of my jurisdictions allow opening for business on any degree.

Charging dues to EA and FC is the worldwide standard.  As is allowing them to vote.  I think it's time to return to the worldwide standard on this.  If they want to go away, they can do so NPD knowing they made that choice.

I have no idea if the worldwide standard allowed EAs or FCs to participate in the ballot.

To my knowledge being installed to a chair is reserved for MM.  Sitting in a chair pro tem for one meeting by an EA or FC is something I think should be called mentoring one of the new guys up.


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## CLewey44 (Oct 12, 2017)

I have been thinking of this some more and it seems we sort of have two categories of BL masons. We have Master Masons and the 'other two'. There is no advantage of being an FC really and lets be honest, back in the day, most members were FCs and EAs, not mostly MMs with a few new guys moving up. I think if the standard was a several year progression vs. several weeks or even same day conferrals, it may mean something more to folks too. I'd have no problem being an FC now if that were the standard. It allow for true mastery of each degree perhaps and make us want to strive for the MM degree. Idk, just a thought.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Oct 12, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> Opening for business is the worldwide standard.  I favor needing a reason to diverge from the worldwide standard.  it was that way when I petitioned is not in the list of reasons I support.  At this point all 3 of my jurisdictions allow opening for business on any degree.
> 
> Charging dues to EA and FC is the worldwide standard.  As is allowing them to vote.  I think it's time to return to the worldwide standard on this.  If they want to go away, they can do so NPD knowing they made that choice.
> 
> ...



As far as Texas is concerned, EA’s and FC’s are not “dues paying” and do not go NPD. Only once raised as a Master do these come in to effect. An EA or FC can go for any length of time, and can come back upon completion of their proficiency in their current degree, and pay for their next degree. These wayward students may come and even study with current Brethren, once proof of their current degree level can be made by the Lodge, but may not attend any meetings until completely current and proficient.


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## HoldenMonty (Oct 13, 2017)

It does make me wonder how it would go if you were in a jurisdiction where you open on an EA or FC degree and have an EA or FC visiting. I think I just don't understand how it would work because in my jurisdiction part of the examination of a visitor is for them to prove they are a MM. Or maybe the jurisdictions that open in the EA or FC degree to conduct business tell their members that it's better to be a MM before you visit other lodges, and would you get your  dues card as an EA or an FC.


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 13, 2017)

HoldenMonty said:


> It does make me wonder how it would go if you were in a jurisdiction where you open on an EA or FC degree and have an EA or FC visiting. I think I just don't understand how it would work because in my jurisdiction part of the examination of a visitor is for them to prove they are a MM. Or maybe the jurisdictions that open in the EA or FC degree to conduct business tell their members that it's better to be a MM before you visit other lodges, and would you get your  dues card as an EA or an FC.



Those that have not reached MM MUST have someone that can vouch for them.


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## dfreybur (Oct 13, 2017)

Bro. Stewart P.M. said:


> As far as Texas is concerned, EA’s and FC’s are not “dues paying” and do not go NPD.



Sure, that's the current rule.  It does not match the worldwide standard.

My point is - Do we have a justification for this divergence from the worldwide standard other than "that's how it was when I petitioned".  An actual reason that has some benefit.  With data if there's an assertion about attendance.

The change to MM only paying dues was part of the long obsolete Baltimore Convention during the Anti-Masonic political movement before the US Civil War.  No longer a valid reason to diverge from the worldwide standard.


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## David Duke (Oct 13, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> Sure, that's the current rule.  It does not match the worldwide standard.
> 
> My point is - Do we have a justification for this divergence from the worldwide standard .....



What worldwide standard? The work is different from Grand Jurisdiction to Jurisdiction and always has been an I would be willing to bet will always be. Why should the general practices and laws  be different?

While we are a global fraternity and should welcome all brothers we should also respect the customs and traditions of each GL. I see no reason to "standardize" Masonry other than Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth. 



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## Ripcord22A (Oct 13, 2017)

David Duke said:


> What worldwide standard? The work is different from Grand Jurisdiction to Jurisdiction and always has been an I would be willing to bet will always be. Why should the general practices and laws  be different?
> 
> While we are a global fraternity and should welcome all brothers we should also respect the customs and traditions of each GL. I see no reason to "standardize" Masonry other than Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth.
> 
> ...



Meaning we(US GRAND JURISDICTIONS) are the only ones in the world that open on the MM for the majority of meetings


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## tldubb (Oct 14, 2017)

My Jurisdiction only conducts business on the 3rd. But if the day ever comes I would support on 1st, or 2nd. Change things up a bit, see if keeps the participation of up in lodges...


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## MarkR (Oct 14, 2017)

HoldenMonty said:


> It does make me wonder how it would go if you were in a jurisdiction where you open on an EA or FC degree and have an EA or FC visiting. I think I just don't understand how it would work because in my jurisdiction part of the examination of a visitor is for them to prove they are a MM. Or maybe the jurisdictions that open in the EA or FC degree to conduct business tell their members that it's better to be a MM before you visit other lodges, and would you get your  dues card as an EA or an FC.


In Minnesota, an EA or FC can only visit another lodge if he's accompanied by a MM who actually saw him initiated or passed to vouch for him.


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 14, 2017)

MarkR said:


> In Minnesota, an EA or FC can only visit another lodge if he's accompanied by a MM who actually saw him initiated or passed to vouch for him.


Same in Oregon and nm

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## acjohnson53 (Oct 14, 2017)

Sounds like a good idea, but what if you had other business that can only be dealt with on the 3rd Degree?


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 14, 2017)

acjohnson53 said:


> Sounds like a good idea, but what if you had other business that can only be dealt with on the 3rd Degree?



Such as?  The only thing I can think of would be a MM Degree. But if there was a situation where business would need to be done with only MM present then u simply open on the MM deg.


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## SCStrong (Oct 14, 2017)

MarkR said:


> In Minnesota, an EA or FC can only visit another lodge if he's accompanied by a MM who actually saw him initiated or passed to vouch for him.


 Same in SC


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## MarkR (Oct 15, 2017)

acjohnson53 said:


> Sounds like a good idea, but what if you had other business that can only be dealt with on the 3rd Degree?





Ripcord22A said:


> Such as?  The only thing I can think of would be a MM Degree. But if there was a situation where business would need to be done with only MM present then u simply open on the MM deg.


Yeah, the only things I can think of that can only be done on the MM degree are conferring the MM degree and conducting a Masonic trial.  We wouldn't take a EA or FC to a lodge that was conducting a MM degree that night, and outsiders should not be visiting at all at a Masonic trial.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Oct 15, 2017)

MarkR said:


> Yeah, the only things I can think of that can only be done on the MM degree are conferring the MM degree and conducting a Masonic trial.  We wouldn't take a EA or FC to a lodge that was conducting a MM degree that night, and outsiders should not be visiting at all at a Masonic trial.



This is correct.


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## dfreybur (Oct 15, 2017)

David Duke said:


> What worldwide standard?



Notice I did not mention landmarks.  It is not a landmark to conduct monetary votes on a specific degree.

Not one jurisdiction outside of North America *ever* switched to conducting monetary votes in the Master Mason degree.  Not even all jurisdictions in North America made the switch.

Your jurisdiction, your rules.  I get that.  It's why I expressed my opinion as myself.  I don't support any of my jurisdictions maintaining a difference from the international standard univsally practiced without data as to why.



MarkR said:


> In Minnesota, an EA or FC can only visit another lodge if he's accompanied by a MM who actually saw him initiated or passed to vouch for him.



Among my jurisdictions California and Illinois practice that.

Texas issues a new brother a provisional dues card good only for EA, then one good only for EA/FC meetings.  Texas, as usual, is wierd.  It's crazy to call it a dues card, but that's just one more bit of evidence to support my personal opinion that it's time to go back to charging dues from the gate.



acjohnson53 said:


> Sounds like a good idea, but what if you had other business that can only be dealt with on the 3rd Degree?



The word business has specific meanings in Masonry.  One of those two meanings is monetary business.  There's no need to only discuss expenses on the Master Mason degree in my opinion.  The other meaning is the ballot box.  I don't care if EA/FC participate in the ballot but it is my opinion witnessing the ballot is an excellent teaching experience for them.

I have had Masonic Education presentation ready that discussed third degree topics, when EAs showed up.  Ah well, do that particular presentation at a different meeting.


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## Glen Cook (Oct 15, 2017)

MarkR said:


> Yeah, the only things I can think of that can only be done on the MM degree are conferring the MM degree and conducting a Masonic trial.  We wouldn't take a EA or FC to a lodge that was conducting a MM degree that night, and outsiders should not be visiting at all at a Masonic trial.


In Utah we must demonstrate the catechism of each degree each year, and will require opening in the appropriate degree. 

We must also open on the MM for installation and funerals, even if we then allow in the public. 

In UGLE installations we have work to in each degree as well as the Board of Installed Masters.  

In each of these instances, brethren who do not possess the requisite qualifications may retire for a short time.


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 15, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> We must also open on the MM for installation and funerals, even if we then allow in the public.
> 
> In each of these instances, brethren who do not possess the requisite qualifications may retire for a short time.



I had forgot about those 2 instances.....



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## Warrior1256 (Oct 15, 2017)

Grand Lodge starts tomorrow and this is one of the pieces of legislation being voted on. Hoping we continue to open on the MM degree in Kentucky for reasons previously stated


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## Bill Lins (Oct 15, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> We must also open on the MM for installation and funerals


Under GLoTX, in addition to the above, the reception of Grand Lodge officers can only be done in a Masters' Lodge.


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## Glen Cook (Oct 15, 2017)

Bill Lins said:


> Under GLoTX, in addition to the above, the reception of Grand Lodge officers can only be done in a Masters' Lodge.


Hmm. Do you have public grand honors in addition to private?


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## Bloke (Oct 16, 2017)

HoldenMonty said:


> It does make me wonder how it would go if you were in a jurisdiction where you open on an EA or FC degree and have an EA or FC visiting. I think I just don't understand how it would work because in my jurisdiction part of the examination of a visitor is for them to prove they are a MM. Or maybe the jurisdictions that open in the EA or FC degree to conduct business tell their members that it's better to be a MM before you visit other lodges, and would you get your  dues card as an EA or an FC.



We don't have dues cards. In relation to admission, we work by convention rather than rule. I took an obligation to keep secrets, if I am satisfied I am not breaking that obligation, I would admit an EA I did not know. I would be looking for a travel letter, or dues card or passport. If he had none of those, I would apologise, not admit him, but ask him to come to dinner and if returning, get him to obtain them. If he had them, I would prove him in the degree he has, but ..... well, I dont want to give hints, but I would examine him remembering he is only an EA or FC.
All that said, most commonly, when admiting an EA or FC, they normally come via GL and are directed specifically to me - same with visiting MMs (hello Tomas if you are reading  )



Glen Cook said:


> Hmm. Do you have public grand honors in addition to private?



I know the question was not directed at me, but no, our grand honours are grand honours and they are given the same way in public and private - but by Freemasons only.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 16, 2017)

Just got back from the first day of Grand Lodge for Kentucky. The proposal for opening lodge on a lesser degree than MM was voted down by a large margin.


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 16, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> Just got back from the first day of Grand Lodge for Kentucky. The proposal for opening lodge on a lesser degree than MM was voted down by a large margin.



So when a brother turns in his proficiency the lodge opens, drops to XX deg lets him in, he does his proficiency then immediately has to leave?  Or is the rest of the meeting carried out on the lower deg until closing?


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## Bill Lins (Oct 16, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Hmm. Do you have public grand honors in addition to private?


We have both but only use the private ones in the reception. Public grand honors here are entirely different & are used in constituting new Lodges and in some of the funeral rituals.


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 17, 2017)

Bill Lins said:


> We have both but only use the private ones in the reception. Public grand honors here are entirely different & are used in constituting new Lodges and in some of the funeral rituals.



I just started a thread on public and private grand honors

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## HoldenMonty (Oct 17, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> So when a brother turns in his proficiency the lodge opens, drops to XX deg lets him in, he does his proficiency then immediately has to leave? Or is the rest of the meeting carried out on the lower deg until closing?


 So I have been paying more attention to this in the Lodge I attend since we are only allowed to conduct business at the MM level. 

For an example lets say we are going to do the 1st degree. We open on MM send out the guide, close the MM, open on the EA, perform the 1st degree, then the WM says anyone who are not MM please retire or something along those lines, we then close at the EA level, open back on the MM level, do any business at the MM level then fully close and then go out to have coffee and whatever refreshments were brought. 

I think I might ask the question why so much switching back and forth because it seems kind of silly to open on the MM level just to close the MM level to go down to whatever degree we are going to do. It makes me wonder if it's one of those that's how it's always been things or I'm thinking probably one of the things passed down from Grand Lodge.


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 17, 2017)

HoldenMonty said:


> So I have been paying more attention to this in the Lodge I attend since we are only allowed to conduct business at the MM level.
> 
> For an example lets say we are going to do the 1st degree. We open on MM send out the guide, close the MM, open on the EA, perform the 1st degree, then the WM says anyone who are not MM please retire or something along those lines, we then close at the EA level, open back on the MM level, do any business at the MM level then fully close and then go out to have coffee and whatever refreshments were brought.
> 
> I think I might ask the question why so much switching back and forth because it seems kind of silly to open on the MM level just to close the MM level to go down to whatever degree we are going to do. It makes me wonder if it's one of those that's how it's always been things or I'm thinking probably one of the things passed down from Grand Lodge.



They probably don't "close"  just "step down" and then "step up" but yeah I agree it's very inefficient


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## HoldenMonty (Oct 17, 2017)

Yeah that is what they do because there is no closing charge or opening charge in between.


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## Brent Heilman (Oct 17, 2017)

Last year Oklahoma voted to allow business to be conducted on any degree, so no longer do we have to open strictly on the MM. The EAs and FCs aren't allowed to vote but they can be there for the meetings. When doing degree work we opened on whatever degree was being done. Not long ago I had a Brother turning in his EA Cat Lecture. I opened the Lodge on the EA. We did the business stuff and then had him turn in his lecture. It was really nice to just be able to open on the EA and not have to open on the MM then go down, turn in his lecture, and then go back up and close. It definitely was a long time coming and it only passed when we had the Grand Secretary and several PGMs submit the resolution.


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## Keith C (Oct 17, 2017)

HoldenMonty said:


> So I have been paying more attention to this in the Lodge I attend since we are only allowed to conduct business at the MM level.
> 
> For an example lets say we are going to do the 1st degree. We open on MM send out the guide, close the MM, open on the EA, perform the 1st degree, then the WM says anyone who are not MM please retire or something along those lines, we then close at the EA level, open back on the MM level, do any business at the MM level then fully close and then go out to have coffee and whatever refreshments were brought.
> 
> I think I might ask the question why so much switching back and forth because it seems kind of silly to open on the MM level just to close the MM level to go down to whatever degree we are going to do. It makes me wonder if it's one of those that's how it's always been things or I'm thinking probably one of the things passed down from Grand Lodge.



It is not from Grand Lodge, but might be from your DDGM or just the way your lodge does it.  When we have extra meetings we open on the degree to be conferred, do the degree and then close on the degree conferred.  The only time we open on MM, and then switch is when we do a degree on a Stated Meeting night, which is typically in December, when the new JW needs to either confer or emulate an EA Degree.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 17, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> So when a brother turns in his proficiency the lodge opens, drops to XX deg lets him in, he does his proficiency then immediately has to leave? Or is the rest of the meeting carried out on the lower deg until closing?





HoldenMonty said:


> For an example lets say we are going to do the 1st degree. We open on MM send out the guide, close the MM, open on the EA, perform the 1st degree, then the WM says anyone who are not MM please retire or something along those lines, we then close at the EA level, open back on the MM level, do any business at the MM level then fully close and then go out to have coffee and whatever refreshments were brought.


The above is the way that we do it.


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## HoldenMonty (Oct 17, 2017)

Keith C said:


> The only time we open on MM, and then switch is when we do a degree on a Stated Meeting night, which is typically in December


 That might be why because we only do degrees on stated meeting nights unless we have an extra meeting a particular month to do degree work.


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## Keith C (Oct 17, 2017)

HoldenMonty said:


> That might be why because we only do degrees on stated meeting nights unless we have an extra meeting a particular month to do degree work.



Interesting.  How do you have time for anyting else during your stated meetings?  With the typical programs we have we would be in lodge until 11:30 - Midnight if we had to do degrees during our stated meeting.


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 17, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> The above is the way that we do it.



Which part?


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## HoldenMonty (Oct 18, 2017)

Keith C said:


> How do you have time for anyting else during your stated meetings?


 Well the only one I have seen them do degree work during a stated meeting was when I got my 3rd degree since I became a MM they decided to do their business after so I could sit in and watch it. They either do it before or after and read the minutes from the last meeting, take care of any petitions in whichever stage they might be and the degree work is their program for that night.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 18, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Which part?





HoldenMonty said:


> We open on MM send out the guide, close the MM, open on the EA, perform the 1st degree, then the WM says anyone who are not MM please retire or something along those lines, we then close at the EA level, open back on the MM level, do any business at the MM level then fully close and then go out to have coffee and whatever refreshments were brought.


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 18, 2017)

Why though? Is how much the electricity bill really a masonic secret that only Master Masons can know? What if that EA is a world-class financier and the largest having problems with money by letting him sit in on a meeting maybe he could save the lodge I know that's a far out there hypothetical I'm just saying. There is no reason that an Entered Apprentice or a fellowcraft shouldn't be allowed to sit in on a regular business meeting

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## Brent Heilman (Oct 18, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Why though? Is how much the electricity bill really a masonic secret that only Master Masons can know? What if that EA is a world-class financier and the largest having problems with money by letting him sit in on a meeting maybe he could save the lodge I know that's a far out there hypothetical I'm just saying. There is no reason that an Entered Apprentice or a fellowcraft shouldn't be allowed to sit in on a regular business meeting
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using My Freemasonry mobile app


I totally agree with you on that. That is one of the reasons I was so happy to see our GL pass the resolution. The only problem I am having with it is getting them in the door. We have one guy who would be there for everything, but his work schedule won't allow it.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 18, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> Why though? Is how much the electricity bill really a masonic secret that only Master Masons can know? What if that EA is a world-class financier and the largest having problems with money by letting him sit in on a meeting maybe he could save the lodge I know that's a far out there hypothetical I'm just saying. There is no reason that an Entered Apprentice or a fellowcraft shouldn't be allowed to sit in on a regular business meeting


I've already stated my reasons previously. We simply have a difference of opinion on this. Why keep going over and over the same ground?


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## Ripcord22A (Oct 18, 2017)

You did sir. ..they should have to earn it....I'm just trying to understand that thought process as I'm sure your not the only one that thinks that way.

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## Warrior1256 (Oct 18, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> You did sir. ..they should have to earn it....I'm just trying to understand that thought process as I'm sure your not the only one that thinks that way.


Very true. We've each made our opinions clear and we also have shown that we can disagree without being disagreeable.


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## daviddenboer (Oct 18, 2017)

When I was visiting in Arizona seeing states meetings there as a FC was beneficial to my Masonic journey.  Lots to learn and it seemed to help other candidates feel part of the group.


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