# Line Progression Good Thing / Bad Thing?



## Bro_Vick (Jul 14, 2013)

After reading Bro Porter's book, he asserts that the progressive line is helping further the demise of our lodges as it allows men that have no business being in the east, to sit there, simply because they did their "time".  We don't want to not elect them to the next station for fear of hurt feelings and being accused of the dreaded "Unmasonic behavior" (which is Goodwin's Law in masonic debates).

I have witnessed men who went through the progression line who were awesome in one station and horrible in the next, I think any Master Mason that has been around long enough see men that had no business sitting in the east, yet are still elected out of "tradition".

Still there was one Worshipful Master we had that went from Junior Deacon to Junior Warden to Worshipful Master who was one of the best WMs I had, he was "quasi" progressive.

So, my question to the seasoned masons, is the progressive line a good thing or bad thing?  I am still personally torn on the issue, as I can see the benefits of both, but a historical count of competent Masons that have gone through the progressive line and elected to the East, isn't that good.

Thoughts?

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## LittleHunter (Jul 14, 2013)

I loved Porter's book and he has great ideas! Personally, I'm torn on the progressive line issue.

I think that if Blue Lodge is a place t
For men to develop leadership skills the the line is a great tool for that purpose. But that means there are going to be mistakes made. We must be tolerant when a new WM pisses someone off of makes a faux pas because he's really still learning.

If we want Blue Lodges to be as well-run as they posibly can be then The Line does not work. Find a good WM And keep voting him in year after year.

I think The best approach might be a balance. Have a progressive Line but be more choosy about who gets To sit in the chairs. An informal group Of experienced "elders/PMs" could actively groom The officers and serve as a sort of cabinet for each WM


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## jaanthony (Jul 14, 2013)

Being a three time PM and Secretary I can say that if you chose the correct people to serve in leadership roles there should be no problems.  I have seen a SR Warden not advanced for proficiency issues.  I have also turned down the East due to conflicts with appointed positions and elected positions in other bodies YR, SR, and invitational.   It just depends on the individual circumstances of the officer(s) involved. 

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## Michael Hatley (Jul 14, 2013)

I too am torn on the issue, but I come down on the side of the progressive line.  I too have read Bro. Porter's book.

The reality is that who is best suited to the job vs who is unsuited is subjective.  One man's Washington is another man's Napoleon is another man's Pvt. Pyle.

On one other hand, the progressive line can see men promoted who have been long time Masons, who know the work really well, or what have you - but aren't really wired to be "leaders".

And in a lodge where there is no progressive line, you exchange the "inevitability" factor with an oligarchy of men (past masters, the sitting secretary and so forth - or some other critical mass of men) who are essentially the king makers.  You introduce political machinations, usually covert, round about and so forth into the mix.  It empowers the men who are not in the east and creates a lodge led by an eminence gris or host of them.  

If such a "shadow council" does not exist in the lodge to endorse the candidate, you have the same issue as you have with the progressive line - the chance for a charismatic fellow with no leadership skills to not just sit in the east, but skip their way directly to it.  

So it is all rather a wash, to me - with the added bit that the progressive line at least in some shape or form isn't really going anywhere in Texas.

If I'm really to break down the issue at a 30,000 foot view, I think, in Texas, the issue is less the progressive line and more the structure of our Grand Lodge - whereby all Past Masters get a permanent vote at Grand Lodge.  This and other things "incentivizes" pressing to the East, and in truth I would "deincentivize" it.

Also the _*order*_ of the chairs I'd change.  Put simply, I would see the Master of Ceremonies chair be just as, if not more desirable than Junior Deacon.  But if a man were to choose, most would choose JD, because it puts them in line for the coveted Past Master title.

And I would see the Steward's chair be more desirable than either, in some way.  It is they who sweat and spend an inordinate amount of time, in real terms, for a lodge.  But the fact is many Texas' lodges real line starts inside the door at deacon, and the stewards roles are filled by placeholders or long serving men.  I'd prefer that be reversed, personally.  You learn a lot about a man by if and how they do physical labor for a lodge.  

But that is just, as is all of this, my personal opinion.


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## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 14, 2013)

earth-shattering revelation


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Jul 14, 2013)

The progressive line CAN develop leadership. However, it is up to the individual's development in order to determine this.

Should a "progressed" Brother not meet the standards of the Lodge at the time of election, then he should not be advanced just because of "time served".


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## Bro_Vick (Jul 14, 2013)

Godfrey Daniel said:


> I've not read the book you cite but this question isn't about a book report.  It also has nothing to do with the latest fashion in Masonic lodges.  The question is one that many lodges and many Masons have wrestled and continue to wrestle with, and it involves more than just the progressive line.  And the topic isn't some earth-shattering revelation.  These questions have been asked for decades.  It also has nothing to do with my personal opinion regarding the publicizing of issues perhaps better addressed more privately.
> 
> Membership increases peaked in 1959 and have been falling since.  I've no doubt that the book included the same old "quality" versus "quantity" argument as if it were being recognized for the very first time.  It only took MWB Dwight Smith a couple of years to see the writing on the wall.
> 
> ...



I used the book as a lead in, not to say that this is the first time I have heard the issue debated, nor will it be the last, but given that in Texas most installations are happening right now it seemed like a good topic of discussion.

Excellent point that it goes back to the West Gate, still the question remains if the progressive line is broken, what must be done to fix it, or is it worth fixing?

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## Godfrey Daniel (Jul 14, 2013)

advance


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## jaanthony (Jul 14, 2013)

I like this discussion and I'm glad you brought it up. Going to be TIM in another Council this year.  I am serving as DDGHP and DDGM R&SM this year and have official visits in August.  See you in the quarries. 

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## relapse98 (Jul 14, 2013)

Bro. Stewart said:


> Should a "progressed" Brother not meet the standards of the Lodge at the time of election, then he should not be advanced just because of "time served".



But how do you address that? Gonna stick out like a sore thumb at elections time when you speak up or its gonna look great when you start talking to other brothers about someone not being ready to move forward.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M. (Jul 14, 2013)

relapse98 said:


> But how do you address that? Gonna stick out like a sore thumb at elections time when you speak up or its gonna look great when you start talking to other brothers about someone not being ready to move forward.



Quite simply, go direct.

I overcame a similar hurdle my year. I quite simply had a sit down with the Brother, it changed both of our perspectives.


Trust me if your Lodge does not realize you line issues, you have larger problems than your line....


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## JJones (Jul 15, 2013)

The progressive line serves a purpose in my opinion, which is to gradually give the brother responsibility and make him more familiar with the lodge work.

Sadly, too often brothers will shirk their responsibility and will overlook one another's inability or unwillingness to learn the work.

What does this mean to me?  There's a place for the progressive line but we also need to be willing and able to make educated and informed decisions  when elections roll around.  Ideally, a brother who isn't a PM should advance through each chair before sitting in the East...but a brother should not be advanced simply because he held an office for a year, especially if he doesn't attend regularly or bother to learn the work.



> But how do you address that? Gonna stick out like a sore thumb at elections time when you speak up or its gonna look great when you start talking to other brothers about someone not being ready to move forward.



There's a lot of fear about discussing the lineup because nobody wants to sound as though they are politicking, I don't agree with this mentality but to each their own.

If you're going to nominate someone outside of the progressive line then experience has taught me that it's important to discuss this with the person you are nominating and especially the brother you have concerns about.  If it's an appointed position then it should be discussed with the WM.  Just my opinion.


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## dfreybur (Jul 16, 2013)

I read W Bro Porter's book and I agreed with a lot of his points.  This one I disagreed with.  The progressive line demonstrates that leaders are made not born and it fits perfectly with Masonry's stated goal of "We make good men better".

The progressive line has larger and larger commitments each year and that gives the brother plenty of time to learn not just the work but to learn that he can in fact take on greater tasks and thrive.  But some brothers max out and they generally should not progress.  Occasionally working with a brother who fails at some of the pieces and excels at others does work and that shows that the progressive line works for team building as well as career building.


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## crono782 (Jul 16, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> I read W Bro Porter's book and I agreed with a lot of his points.  This one I disagreed with.  The progressive line demonstrates that leaders are made not born and it fits perfectly with Masonry's stated goal of "We make good men better".



So after our usual Tuesday floor school tonight a bunch of us went to get burgers. A lady saw my s&c polo and remarked that she was a past worthy advisor for rainbow girls and whose father was a PM. Our new master was there, introduced himself, and joked how he was the new guy in the hot seat. Her response was "God doesn't choose the equipped. He equips the chosen."

I thought this anecdote fit the discussion at hand. 


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## rpbrown (Jul 17, 2013)

dfreybur said:


> I read W Bro Porter's book and I agreed with a lot of his points. This one I disagreed with. The progressive line demonstrates that leaders are made not born and it fits perfectly with Masonry's stated goal of "We make good men better".
> 
> The progressive line has larger and larger commitments each year and that gives the brother plenty of time to learn not just the work but to learn that he can in fact take on greater tasks and thrive. But some brothers max out and they generally should not progress. Occasionally working with a brother who fails at some of the pieces and excels at others does work and that shows that the progressive line works for team building as well as career building.



Very well stated.


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## cool ron00 (Jul 17, 2013)

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U rigjt about that brother


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## rhitland (Jul 17, 2013)

It is not the progressive line that is broke it is the folks in the fraternity.  Just as Brother Stewart stated that if we choose to support the progressive line then it will work greatly, bottom line is what ever we choose to support will succeed.  The tall and skinny of it is that we have no gas left to support the massive system we have in place.  I am talking in general here not pointing any fingers.  Our fraternity grew out of small humble roots.  Lodges used to be small and cohesive and they seem to have grown large and competitive.  We all know the woes of most stated meetings or the dreaded "mean ole Past Master" or a just plain dead lodge everywhere you look is despair from our buildings to our education programs.  The panic has set in and is greatly effecting our craft because we do not have the members and money we had in the 60's.  The problem has been amplified because we did let our guard down a bit in the west gate as Brother Godley alluded to but the system it self is not broken


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## rhitland (Jul 17, 2013)

Was the line up originally meant to be progressive?  Maybe tradition has to take some of the blame because it has become (being mostly out of gas in our craft) ritualistic for most lodges to just vote the officers up one station and see where the chips land and if it is bad everyone just does not come for a year.


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## Bill Lins (Jul 17, 2013)

rhitland said:


> Was the line up originally meant to be progressive?



Absolutely not. The Lodge is supposed to constantly evaluate each Officer as to his job performance and his learning the role of his immediate superior in the line and, at election time, decide if each is worthy of promotion.


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## Roy Vance (Jul 18, 2013)

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Absolutely not. The Lodge is supposed to constantly evaluate each Officer as to his job performance and his learning the role of his immediate superior in the line and, at election time, decide if each is worthy of promotion.



I am in a position now, Senior Warden, that has the eyes and ears of the lodge on me. I just hope I can live up to their expectations, and mine too. This is a small, rural lodge where everyone in the lodge is a PM two or three times over, except me, and they are a wealth of Masonic information, education and ritualistic instruction. These are the main reasons I affiliated with this lodge. I hope I can prove worthy of their vote come election time next year.


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## rmcgehee (Jul 18, 2013)

It is sad but true,a lot of times a "warm body" is put in the line cause no one else steps up.The Brother is flattered and does his best but doesn't really know what he is in for.He finally sees the writing on the wall,bails out,then the "process" starts again.


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## Bill Lins (Jul 18, 2013)

Roy Vance said:


> I am in a position now, Senior Warden, that has the eyes and ears of the lodge on me. I just hope I can live up to their expectations, and mine too. This is a small, rural lodge where everyone in the lodge is a PM two or three times over, except me, and they are a wealth of Masonic information, education and ritualistic instruction. These are the main reasons I affiliated with this lodge. I hope I can prove worthy of their vote come election time next year.



I have faith in you, my Brother- the fact that you care means a lot.


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