# Causes of the US Civil War



## lwdisney

I love history, especially the Civil War.  The cause of the war is still debated today and some on the Southern side say states rights and others (the modern racists) say slavery.
I was curious what yall thought about it.  And is "Civil War" an accurate name?  What would be better?  If the South had won, would slavery still exist and would the CSA eventually have rejoined the Union?  If Texas or any other state seceded, would you support them?  I ask that question because a lot of people are advocating seccession today.


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## lwdisney

oh and what thoughts do you have when you see someone flying the Confederate flag?


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## TCShelton

I'll go with "irreconcileable differences."

Depends on whether the guy with the flag also has a shaved head or not...


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## Sirius

As a Texan the Confederate flag does nothing for me. Texas was Texas before the CSA was the CSA. 

States rights = slavery. Or, it was the states right to have slavery. The fight had been brewing since to Constitutional Convention. It was a true civil war. War of Northern aggression is bull to anyone who understands the history. Armed insurrection will not be tolerated. Texas succession was a black mark on our history. We asked to join the Union. 

However there was reason to believe that Texas would be lumped in with the South by the Union anyway, so why not just join the CSA and hope for the best? We probably should have seceded and become our own nation again until the end of the war. There is a great feaux documentary about the civil war from the prospective of if the south won.  The conclusions were very interesting. The CSA essentially goes on to do away with slavery naturally. I think its called 'CSA'.  

I have noticed that Rick Perry loves America so much that he thinks the  destruction of the Union is better than going on. How Patriotic.


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## JBD

If you think it was about slavery re-read the emancipation proclimation.  
See who was really "freed"
It was states rights and no, I am not a racist - never was, never plan to be.
There were slaves in the North and the South.

I didn't read the proclimation with open eyes until my son showed it to me after he finished Constitutional Law in Law School - - really an interesting read.

The real story is not what I was taught in school


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## Sirius

JBD said:


> If you think it was about slavery re-read the emancipation proclimation.
> See who was really "freed"
> It was states rights and no, I am not a racist - never was, never plan to be.
> There were slaves in the North and the South.
> 
> I didn't read the proclamation with open eyes until my son showed it to me after he finished Constitutional Law in Law School - - really an interesting read.
> 
> The real story is not what I was taught in school



I know you are not a racist. Saying it all boiled down to states rights isn't racist. 

The proclamation freed all slaves in states engaged in insurrection. Of course. it was tactic amied at weakining the enemy. Notice Lincoln didnt issue it the day the CSA was formed. It was much later. 

The war happened because of Southern resistance to federal control, or states rights. What exactly was the federal government trying to control that got the Southern feathers ruffled? Slavery. So what did it boil down to? Either/Or. Doesn't really matter. Both seem to point to each other.


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## Wingnut

Most of Texas was pro-Union.  James Webb Throckmorton, Sam Houston and 6 others voted against secession.  Interestingly both were Masons...  You also have to understand that prior to the Civil War, the country didnt have the attitude that the Fed Government was over them.  The individual states and residents placed loyalty to their state first, then to the Fed Gov.  In fact many lawyers believe that they did have the right to succeed prior to the Civil War.

An interesting note:  Throckmorton was elected govornor of Texas after the war but was forced out by Sheridan because he didnt believe that Throckmorton was providing protection for the freed former slaves or following the direction that the military occupation wanted him to.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

Sirius said:


> The war happened because of Southern resistance to federal control, or states rights. What exactly was the federal government trying to control that got the Southern feathers ruffled? Slavery. So what did it boil down to? Either/Or. Doesn't really matter. Both seem to point to each other.



History will tell you that the only reason why the Federal Government chose to force the CSA States back in to the Union was simply the Import/Export Tax profit lost by them leaving the Union. The "drive" for the Union was to re-establish its income. The major taxable export at that time was cotton, and almost all of it was grown in the South and sold to Europe. If you look at timing, the Emancipation Proclamation (which only freed slaves in the South) was drafted just in time for Europe to grant her full support of the CSA. Funny how the "new" support scared the heck out of the Union because they knew at that time the renewed support could change the course of the War. Europe also being Slavery based wanted nothing to do with the Proclamation.

The facts of why and where are just as cloudy about the War of Northern Aggression as the JFK assasination IMO; due in part to the "victors go the spoils" I will leave you with a couple of my favorite quotes from the era, and one modern one from Pankow...

_"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suites them better. This is a most valuable and most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit." ~ Abraham Lincoln, January 12, 1848

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality.  And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man I am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.  I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything." ~  Abraham Lincoln, September 18, 1858 –Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas in Charleston Illinois

"…My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union and is not, either to save or destroy slavery.  If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that…" ~ August 25, 1862 letter to Honorable Horace Greeley of the New York Tribune by Abraham Lincoln

"We could have pursued no other course without dishonor. And as sad as the results have been, if it had all to be done over again, we should be compelled to act in precisely the same manner." ~ General Robert E. Lee

"Surrender means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy, that our youths will be trained by Northern school books, their version of the War; and taught to regard our gallant dead as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit subjects of desertion." ~ General Patrick Cleburne


To me, the campaign by certain groups to remove all the symbols and memorials to our Southern past amounts to the same thing...a desecration of graves. Every flag or monument that is removed, every plaque taken down, every school or street or bridge that is re-named, is no different from a broken tombstone. It is wanton and hateful violence directed at the dead who can no longer defend themselves.'' ~ John Field Pankow_


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## Sirius

Bro. Stewart said:


> To me, the campaign by certain groups to remove all the symbols and memorials to our Southern past amounts to the same thing...a desecration of graves. Every flag or monument that is removed, every plaque taken down, every school or street or bridge that is re-named, is no different from a broken tombstone. It is wanton and hateful violence directed at the dead who can no longer defend themselves.'' ~ John Field Pankow[/I]



Good Post. My own Greatx3 Grandfather was a a Col in the Texas Calvary. And I honor that part of my family history and heritage. Certainly heroes were on both sides. It's kinda like figuring out who caused the divorce when you're friends with both sides.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

Sirius said:


> Good Post. My own Greatx3 Grandfather was a a Col in the Texas Calvary. And I honor that part of my family history and heritage. Certainly heroes were on both sides. It's kinda like figuring out who caused the divorce when you're friends with both sides.



4G-Grandfather
34th Arkansas Infantry, Co. D. -CSA +5 other brothers killed at Pea Ridge

...and so I am fair also 4G-Grandfather - Illinois Infantry -USA

So I qualify for both Sons of Union Veterans, and Sons of Confederate Veterans, I am a past Camp Commander of the latter...


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## JTM

The War of Northern Aggression, you mean?

When "All the United States of America" became "THE United States of America"

it was the beginning of the end.  it was all about control.  rabble rabble rabble rabble!     /tinfoil.


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## RJS

JTM said:


> The War of Northern Aggression, you mean?
> 
> When "All the United States of America" became "THE United States of America"
> 
> it was the beginning of the end.  it was all about control.  rabble rabble rabble rabble!     /tinfoil.



No, no...before the war it was said "The United States are America" after the war is where we get the "United States of America".


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## Nate Riley

I get way to emotionally involved in these conversations, so I am not going to.  I'll just through this out there, there was nothing "Civil" about it.  

GreatX3 Grandfather, Ben Pierce Killingsworth - Georgia Militia
GreatX4 Grandfather, Daniel Killingsworth - Georgia Militia


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## Sirius

Nate Riley said:


> I'll just through this out there, there was nothing "Civil" about it.



They usually aren't.  Georgia suffered greatly at the hands of Sherman.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

I have to say that as of recent the "tinfoil" comment is offensive on ALL message boards. This is like the 5th or 6th time that I have seen it in a post this week, and to me seems like getting the last word without actually doing so.

Anyone follow what I am saying or is it just me??


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## RJS

lwdisney said:


> oh and what thoughts do you have when you see someone flying the Confederate flag?



Are you talking about the Battle Flag or the Confederate flag?


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

RJS said:


> Are you talking about the Battle Flag or the Confederate flag?



Valid point! I await the rebuttal..


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## JTM

RJS said:


> No, no...before the war it was said "The United States are America" after the war is where we get the "United States of America".
> 
> Edit: I seemed to have misplaced my foil hat....



it was said a couple ways.  These United States of America, as well.


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## JBD

Bro. Stewart said:


> I have to say that as of recent the "tinfoil" comment is offensive on ALL message boards. This is like the 5th or 6th time that I have seen it in a post this week, and to me seems like getting the last word without actually doing so.
> 
> Anyone follow what I am saying or is it just me??




No it is not just you, that comment is offensive, dismissive and inappropriate.  It does speak directly to the understanding and subject knowledge of the poster however - so in that regard it is a useful statement


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## JTM

hrm, my bad if i offended anyone.  it wasn't meant to be offensive, dismissive or inappropriate.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

JTM said:


> hrm, my bad if i offended anyone.  it wasn't meant to be offensive, dismissive or inappropriate.



It was not just you my Brother, nor this site as a whole. The term has been used a lot recently on many sites, and I was simply stating my opinon of the new term. It was not my intention to single anyone out, I promise!!


NOW, back to the subject at hand!


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## RJS

JTM said:


> hrm, my bad if i offended anyone.  it wasn't meant to be offensive, dismissive or inappropriate.



Me too!  I went ahead and removed mine.


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## TCShelton

RJS said:


> Are you talking about the Battle Flag or the Confederate flag?



+1.


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## Sirius

Neither flag gives me the fuzzy warm feeling that the Lone Star flag does.


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## TCShelton

Sirius said:


> Neither flag gives me the fuzzy warm feeling that the Lone Star flag does.



I prefer my "Come and Take It."


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## Sirius

TCShelton said:


> I prefer my "Come and Take It."



I just got the fuzzies.


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## lwdisney

RJS said:


> Are you talking about the Battle Flag or the Confederate flag?



Well really either...both are Confederate.  But we do see the Battle Flag more often, which by the way, does it annoy anyone else when people call the Battle Flag the national flag?  

What do yall think of "War Between the States", "War for Southern Independence", "Second American Revolution" or any other you've heard?  Technically speaking, "Civil War" is incorrect since the two sides were not fighting for control over the same government.  Its as much of a civil war as the American Revolution.

And I love the "Come and Take It" flag, as well as the "Don't Tread on Me", which is why I had those words tattooed.

PS enough about your fuzzies...we don't go for that kind of thing


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## Nate Riley

Bro. Stewart said:


> I have to say that as of recent the "tinfoil" comment is offensive on ALL message boards. This is like the 5th or 6th time that I have seen it in a post this week, and to me seems like getting the last word without actually doing so.
> 
> Anyone follow what I am saying or is it just me??



Please excuse my ignorance, but what does it mean?


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## RJS

lwdisney said:


> Well really either...both are Confederate.  But we do see the Battle Flag more often, which by the way, does it annoy anyone else when people call the Battle Flag the national flag?
> 
> What do yall think of "War Between the States", "War for Southern Independence", "Second American Revolution" or any other you've heard?  Technically speaking, "Civil War" is incorrect since the two sides were not fighting for control over the same government.  Its as much of a civil war as the American Revolution.
> 
> And I love the "Come and Take It" flag, as well as the "Don't Tread on Me", which is why I had those words tattooed.
> 
> PS enough about your fuzzies...we don't go for that kind of thing



Yes the are both Confederate but their is a big difference.  For instance do you think the battle flag would be able to fly next to the other five flags in front of the Bob Bullock State History Museum?  I don't, I bet people would scream for it to come down.  Yet people don't seem to have a problem with the Confederate flag flying up there.


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## lwdisney

RJS said:


> Yes the are both Confederate but their is a big difference.  For instance do you think the battle flag would be able to fly next to the other five flags in front of the Bob Bullock State History Museum?  I don't, I bet people would scream for it to come down.  Yet people don't seem to have a problem with the Confederate flag flying up there.



Right, I just meant what are your thoughts when you see someone supporting the Confederacy (most common is flying the flag)?...racist, history, whatever.  Has anyone ever seen a black person flying the Confederate flag? I have, its rare.


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## Sirius

When I see someone flying the rebel battle flag I think, 'wow, they really don't have anything to be proud of.'


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## TCShelton

Nate Riley said:


> Please excuse my ignorance, but what does it mean?



+1.


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## Wingnut

Ive been trying and failing to properly use compasses today but...

The Battle Flag has and always will be a symbol of defiance.  No matter where you stand on the North v South discussion one thing can not be denied, many young men on both sides fought bravely and with honor.

The Battle Flag has a very unique and very distinctive look just as the state of Texas does.  It wasnt considred to be a symbol of racism until the Klan and skin heads took it up as their banner of bigotry.

At one time in my life I flew it not as a symbol of racism but a symbol of youthful revolt.  I did graduate high school in 79 after all!  I was a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans but dropped because of the racism exhibited.  I think most people are ignorant of the National Flag of the Confederacy and it hasnt been tied to the racism that the Battle Flag has and is therefore much more accepted and PC.


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## Bryan

What ever the reasons may or may not have been for the war between the states the Federal Government of the USA turned it to their advantage in as much as an opportunity to seize more power for its self.  

Ever since that time the powers of the federal government have increased to the point to where government owns our Banks, Auto Industry and is making a run to seize control of the Health Care program.  

I know this is not exactly on target as far as the "causes" of the Civil War but It is my belief that we are still feeling the effects of it to this very day.      

Just for the record:  Winn Parish (we have parishes instead of counties in Louisiana) Louisiana not only succeeded from the Union but it also succeeded from the CSA, and the State of Louisiana.   We called our selves the "Free State of Winn"   However we did manage to send 200 soldiers to fight for the confederacy.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

I would like to add that Six Flags Over Texas once was tempted witht the thought of removing the First National flag because someone "finally" figured out what it was. If I am not mistaken a lawsuit was filed, but the judge over ruled the suit because of its historical background in Texas.


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## drapetomaniac

This is from the Texas Ordinance of Secession

"In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon the unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color--a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and the negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States. "
Texas Ordinance of Secession

I encourage you to read through the various ordinances of secession.

These letters detail the exact causes and motives behind secession.  And, they not only typically mention slavery , but also that "debasing doctrine of the equality of all men."

I was shocked when I led through the ordinances (I searched them each for terms like race, negro, equality, slavery) because I thought the issue was actually debatable.  

On "the flag"

I'm going to be less detailed, but I think those versed in the history and controversy can fill in...

My understanding is "the flag" was NOT "the flag" and it was used by one batllation (or platoon)?  Nathan Bedford Forrest I believe, often credited and debunked as being the Klan founder.

These are the flags of Texas:
Flags of the Republic of Texas

There is a Confederate flag, but it is not "the flag"

"The flag" became notorious and more publically used via Klan use.

They became popularized in state flags and on state grounds as protest during the civil rights movement. 

I think only one state had that symbol in their flag during the confederacy - and the others introduced it to protest "that debasing doctrine."

Only a small part of the Confederacy can say it's about their heritage.  Several states, as a matter of fact, reverted their flags and have flown their *actual* confederate flags instead of the one introduced in protest of equal rights.

Why not fly the actual flags? (to which there is next to no protest)
Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## drapetomaniac

This was types about 10 years ago - the docs should still be available

----

Go to American Civil War - Home. In the Documents: Government section you will find the following:
In the Constitution of the {United} [Confederate] States of America, there are 8 distinct parts dealing with different laws of slavery.

Jefferson Davis' first message to the Confederate Congress:
Slave is mentioned 23 times from beginning to end of his speech.

Jefferson Davis' farewell to US Senate:
Mentions slavery throughout.

Georgia's declaration of secession:
The word slave appears 36 times throughout the length of the document.

Mississippi declaration of secession:
The word slave appears 7 times throughout the length of the document.
Including :
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. "

South Carolina declaration of secession:
The word slave appears 18 times throughout the length of the document.

Texas declaration of secession:
The word slave appears 22 times throughout the length of the document.
Including:
"In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law."


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## TCShelton

drapetomaniac said:


> Why not fly the actual flags? (to which there is next to no protest)



+1.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

Funny, the referral to the Articals of Secession. The key point missing in the argument is the fact that the Union didn't end slavery until many years after the end of the War in 1864.

The story behind the "battle flag" is thus: At the begining of the War the CSA used a flag called the "Bonnie Blue" (solid blue color, single five-pointed star centered); the Confederate congress approved the "First National" (circular star pattern over solid blue canton, and alternating red & white horizontal bars) as the National flag also known as the "stars and bars"; it was this flag initially carried into battle. However the FN caused some confusion in the heat of battle accross the lines due to the similarity to the then US flag. A new flag had to be created in order to better tell the difference between enemies during battle thus creating the "battle flag" (blue X over red background with stars equally positioned within the blue field). All CSA units carried a version of this flag into battle along with the FN.

Most of you are already during the time of the Battle of the Wilderness a second flag was created for the CSA. This flag incorporated the "battle flag" into the canton over a solid white background known as the "Second National". Its first use was to drape the coffin of General "Stonewall" Jackson. Of course this flag also created some issues during battle becasue of its white background appearing as a flag of surrender.

Close to the close of the war the SN was modified and a solid red bar was included on its flying edge. This "Third National" was only briefly used by the CSA.


Also in closing, the association between General Forrest the Klan and the CSA is something that happend after the close of the War. I assure you that the actions of Forrest post-war is an embarassment to those of us who hold our Southen values and roots dear. It is an utter disgrace to see what modern hate groups have done to MY heritage and its flags. It is because of people like him that make people in today's society give individuals like me the evil eye when we chose to fly OUR flags. Of which my extensive collection contains only Artillery "battle flag", all others are local state/town flags, army departments, or others.


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## Bryan

Bro. Stewart said:


> Also in closing, the association between General Forrest the Klan and the CSA is something that happend after the close of the War. I assure you that the actions of Forrest post-war is an embarassment to those of us who hold our Southen values and roots dear. It is an utter disgrace to see what modern hate groups have done to MY heritage and its flags. It is because of people like him that give people like me the evil eye when we chose to fly OUR flags.



Very very true.    

There were plenty of nasty things done after the war by all parties involved.  Things that should never have happened.


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## drapetomaniac

Bro. Stewart said:


> Funny, the referral to the Articals of Secession. The key point missing in the argument is the fact that the Union didn't end slavery until many years after the end of the War in 1864.



Not really.  There is an argument
* The Union went to war against the south over slavery 

I don't agree with this.  Lincoln was  a white supremacist.  He might have been an abolitionist, but he also believed in inequality of races.

This debate frequently relies in glorifying the North.  The North had abolitionists, but they were still supremacists who disavowed equality adn brotherhood of all man (see Prince Hall).

* The second question is one of - What was the Civil War over.

I think it can be said the South seceded over slavery. If not the only reason, it was in the top two or three. It sure was mentioned a lot during the secession and start of the confederate states.
And the North at the very least went to war over secession (which was caused by...).

When was the flag popularized and put on state grounds and used as an emblem throughout the confederacy popularly? At the end of the war - is this the symbol all the former confederate states were flying like they are today to show their loyalty and heritage? If you have good reading on the popular symbols, I'm always up for learning.  I haven't read up on it in a decade, but the reading then indicated the popularization of the widespread showing of that symbol didn't start until the civil right period.

I simply find it odd that local focused veterans wouldn't revere their local symbols, which next to no one has a problem with.  A lot of people think the stars and bars are included in the 6 flags over Texas and are confused when they find out it's not.  Which heritage was lost?


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

> A lot of people think the stars and bars are included in the 6 flags over Texas and are confused when they find out it's not.



Really? Have you ever traveled by one of the Texas tourist stations on a major highway? The "stars and bars" IS included within the six flags proudly displayed. As I mentioned in my previous post the common mis-conception of people today is that the "battle flag" is not the "stars and bars", the First National is.

As to the "cause of the War" I refer back to my original reply within this thread:



> History will tell you that the only reason why the Federal Government chose to force the CSA States back in to the Union was simply the Import/Export Tax profit lost by them leaving the Union. The "drive" for the Union was to re-establish its income. The major taxable export at that time was cotton, and almost all of it was grown in the South and sold to Europe. If you look at timing, the Emancipation Proclamation (which only freed slaves in the South) was drafted just in time for Europe to grant her full support of the CSA. Funny how the "new" support scared the heck out of the Union because they knew at that time the renewed support could change the course of the War. Europe also being Slavery based wanted nothing to do with the Proclamation.
> 
> The facts of why and where are just as cloudy about the War of Northern Aggression as the JFK assasination IMO; due in part to the "victors go the spoils" I will leave you with a couple of my favorite quotes from the era, and one modern one from Pankow...


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## rhitland

I have many many ancestors who fought and died in the Civil War on both sides and I am very proud of that fact but I do understand that the Confedrate flag has been deemed an emblem of hate and as much as I hate that it is reality and I will not asscosiate myself to it anymore b/c of that fact, just as the swatstika is no longer a symbol of the 4 Ls Life, Love, Laughter and Loyality as it symbolized for many centuries then Hitler ruined that one for us. We learn in Masonry symbols have a profound effect upon the mind and body and if we tote symbols of hate then we will generate just that.


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## TCShelton

rhitland said:


> I have many many ancestors who fought and died in the Civil War on both sides and I am very proud of that fact...



+1, but only the south for mine.  14 fought that I know of, and about 6 died.:beer:


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## Blake Bowden

Bumpy


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