# Grand Orient National Convention (Los Angeles)



## jay357 (Aug 9, 2013)

Greetings and salutations brethren! On behalf of Abiff Lodge #615 we would like 2 invite you to fellowship with us!
Hope to see you tonight! 

Bro. Jason Crenshaw M.M.


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Aug 9, 2013)

Which grand orient is that?

Disregard, found it.


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## jay357 (Aug 9, 2013)

That is quite a resume brother! I am a 4th generation Scottish Rite mason and I have recently been to raised. I am the youngest in my Lodge at age 33. Will you give me a few words of wisdom?


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## Frater Cliff Porter (Aug 9, 2013)

I would simply say to enjoy the journey and don't rush it.  If what you are doing brings you peace, fulfillment and stokes the fire...then keep doing it and do it well.


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## BryanMaloney (Aug 12, 2013)

So, is this a regular body or an irregular/clandestine body?


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## widows son (Aug 12, 2013)

The majority of the Grand orient system is not recognized by mainstream/PHA GL's in North America, England and parts of Europe.


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## BryanMaloney (Aug 12, 2013)

So, PHA would list it among the bogus organizations...


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## jay357 (Aug 12, 2013)

What do you mean "BOGUS"? I am Scottish Rite and not a Prince Hall Mason (I assume that's what PHA is) also "Grand Orient" is NOT clandestine and is ABSOLUTELY recognized in ENGLAND. My worshipful master was Knighted by the queen of England so I'm not sure what your source is brother but I don't believe the queen would Knight a clandestine mason. I do realized that most black masons are Clandestine but you should know that not all of us are


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## BryanMaloney (Aug 12, 2013)

If you are under the "National Supreme Council, AASR Masons", this is a clandestine organization, not recognized by UGLE or any other legitimate Masonic body. No Regular Scottish Rite body in the USA awards [the first three degrees--added on edit]. There are four and only for regular Scottish Rite bodies in the USA. There are the Supreme Council 33deg for the Northern Masonic Jurisdiction, the Supreme Council 33deg for the Southern Masonic Jurisdiction, United Supreme Council, PHA, Northern Jurisdiction, and United Supreme Council, PHA, Southern Jurisdiction. Likewise, no "Grand Orient" of any sort in North America is recognized by UGLE. As far as I can tell, only one "Grand Orient" by name is recognized by UGLE, being the Grand Orient of Haiti 1824. UGLE maintains a complete list of all Grand Lodges they currently recognize: http://www.ugle.org.uk/about/foreign-grand-lodges

 If you are under the Grand Lodge of California or the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of California, the only two Grand Lodges recognized by "England" to operate in California, I humbly apologize. Any other _soi-disant_ "Masonic Lodge" operating in that state is either under a clandestine organization, operating within California in contravention of Masonic principles, or of that rare breed of lodge that has been granted leave by the local territorial lodge to operate under a "foreign" Grand Lodge.


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## crono782 (Aug 12, 2013)

paper trail:
http://mtsinai.50webs.com/index_files/Lodge615.htm
http://mtsinai.50webs.com/index_files/AboutUs.htm
http://www.nationalsupremecouncil.com/home.html
look about right?


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## jay357 (Aug 12, 2013)

Wow ... I have to dig to find out more info as to what the history is here.  Thank you for the info. This is news to me


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## dfreybur (Aug 12, 2013)

jay357 said:


> Wow ... I have to dig to find out more info as to what the history is here.  Thank you for the info. This is news to me



The vast majority of clandestine masons have never been told that's what their order is.  Most came in sincere and had no idea they were not joining the real deal.  Sorry that it came as a surprise my friend.  I urge you to locate a recognized lodge and transfer to it.  The process is called being "healed".

You're fourth generation Scottish Rite?  Are you a member of your great-grandfather's valley?  If you are maybe that tradition counts enough for you that you don't care that we have promised to not acknowledge you clandestine orders.  Clandestine lodges tend to do good in their communities.  But I suggest you learned that your father, grandfather, great-grandfather were Scottish Rite Masons so you joined an order with those words in its name.  And without knowing it you got tricked into joining a counterfeit.

How it should work is you petition a lodge in a jurisdiction in the list from the United Grand Lodge of England, work your way through your degrees and then proceed to join the Scottish Rite affiliated with that lodge.


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## crono782 (Aug 12, 2013)

It's a bit shocking to find out I'm sure. The subject of lineage can be murky at times. A bit like joining a major leage baseball team, but aren't a part of the MLB. You indeed play baseball, you call yourself a major leage team, but the MLB doesn't recognize that you are one, and in turn they are not allowed (and will not) play with you. -_-


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## widows son (Aug 12, 2013)

Also the Queen doesn't care if your a Mason if you are being knighted. Knighthood on that sense has nothing to do with Freemasonry.


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## dfreybur (Aug 13, 2013)

BryanMaloney said:


> Any other _soi-disant_ "Masonic Lodge" operating in that state is either under a clandestine organization, operating within California in contravention of Masonic principles, or of that rare breed of lodge that has been granted leave by the local territorial lodge to operate under a "foreign" Grand Lodge.



A claim of having been Knighted by the Queen should be easy to confirm.  It sounds too much like folks going around claiming to be former Navy SEALs so I'll pass on checking.  It's not relevant to Masonry and as such sounds to me like a justification for their status instead of having a valid lineage.

Lodges outside of their territory do happen -

As a part of PHA recognition California took several steps to establish they could grant individual exceptions to the American doctrine of exclusive jurisdiction without setting a general precedent.  When Alaska formed its own GL at least one of the original lodges in that territory declined to join and decided to continue with their Washington charter.  California voted on legislation that boiled down to "As long as Alaska and Washington are okay with it then we are too".  A year later one of the Mexican GLs requested permission to charter a Spanish speaking lodge near the Mexican border in a community with very high percentage of Spanish speakers.  California voted on legislation to allow the charter as long as any other charters in California are also by request and subject to our GL vote.  Then with the precedent of individual exceptions established California voted to recognize MWPHAGLofCA+HI as soon as Hawaii also recognized them.  Later that year Hawaii did vote to recognize.  Those events all happened as I progressed though the line but before I was JW so before I started attending GL in California.  Since then PHA has split to MWPHAGLofCA and MWPHAGLofHI with everyone recognizing everyone.


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## tomasball (Aug 14, 2013)

This outfit has three functioning lodges in all of California?  Sounds pretty exclusive.  I have noticed that many of these "less regular" organizations have an Eastern Star component that, far from being an "affiliate body", is treated on an equal footing in their websites and journals.


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## jay357 (Aug 14, 2013)

Excuse me Mr. Tomas Hall but is that sarcasm or sincerity when you say it "sounds exclusive?" I cannot tell emotion thru text but If i had 2 guess i'd say u are being a smart ass :-/ I hope I'm wrong 



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## Billy Jones (Aug 14, 2013)

I knew as soon as I saw the title I could tell it was not regular. Only once in USA history was there even the consideration of anything close to having a national anything. There is an article on this site on it.

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## tomasball (Aug 14, 2013)

jay357 said:


> Excuse me Mr. Tomas Hall but is that sarcasm or sincerity when you say it "sounds exclusive?" I cannot tell emotion thru text but If i had 2 guess i'd say u are being a smart ass :-/ I hope I'm wrong
> 
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect HD


No, you're right.  I was the one who was wrong.  Apologies.


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## jay357 (Aug 14, 2013)

Dfrey and Crono I appreciate the compassion and patience and thank you for not belittling me. As a new master mason, this is obviously a shocker to me but a Mason is a Mason in his heart first and in a lodge second. Whether someone chooses 2 recognize me as a brother mason or not, my oath and my obligation was real in my heart and I take it very seriously! I will consider and research being "healed" but healed or not, by gods grace, I am what I am.


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## relapse98 (Aug 19, 2013)

jay357 said:


> Whether someone chooses 2 recognize me as a brother mason or not, my oath and my obligation was real in my heart and I take it very seriously!



The problem being that you almost certainly will not be able to gain admission to any other lodge's tiled meeting.


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