# Deist or Irreligious Freemasons



## RhushidaK (Nov 22, 2016)

Are there any deists or irreligious, regular Freemasons here? If so, what do you have as VSL while swearing? And how do you see them as in general?

Note: Irreligious here would denote Freemasons who believe in a god, but do not follow any religion.


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## RhushidaK (Nov 22, 2016)

Interesting. But then what did you swear on? I have read about two different VSLs used, the Jefferson Bible and a blank book.


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## Bloke (Nov 22, 2016)

RhushidaK said:


> Interesting. But then what did you swear on? I have read about two different VSLs used, the Jefferson Bible and a blank book.


Your in India? I would think you'd seen a few VSLs... in my lodge I've seen Bibles, Korans, Gitas and Buddhist texts used as VSLs and visited Lodges with the Talmud...

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## Scoops (Nov 22, 2016)

Counting myself as a Panentheist, in theory, I'd have been happy taking my Obs. on any Holy Book that is an interpretation of the Divine Will. In practice, I used a Bible as it's the book I'm most familiar with having been raised as a Christian.


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## RhushidaK (Nov 22, 2016)

Cool..
@Scoops I'm a panentheist too. My beliefs lie quite close to that of Advaita Vedanta in Hinduism. And I swore my obs. on the Gita.

@Bloke Yup. We always have five VSLs on the altar. The Gita, Bible, Quran, Guru Granth Sahib (the Sikh book) and Zend Avesta (the Zoroastrian book).


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## Glen Cook (Nov 22, 2016)

A blank book is specifically prohibited in some jurisdictions, as it cannot contain the revealed word of God.


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## RhushidaK (Nov 22, 2016)

Interesting.. But what if someone does not believe that there is specifically a revealed text by God? Since the requirement for being a Freemason is having faith in God, and not necessarily belonging to any religion.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 22, 2016)

RhushidaK said:


> Interesting.. But what if someone does not believe that there is specifically a revealed text by God? Since the requirement for being a Freemason is having faith in God, and not necessarily belonging to any religion.


Two different issues arise.  1.   Not believing in a revealed text does not prohibit taking an obligation on such. 2. In some jurisdictions, membership would be prohibited. For instance, Texas requires on its petition for the degrees a belief in the the divine  authenticity of the volume of sacred law (and the US Constitution). http://grandlodgeoftexas.org/assets/uploads/2015/10/26.pdf


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## RhushidaK (Nov 22, 2016)

Owww.. 1 Yes of course
But for 2, is that allowed? Allowing membership to only those who have revealed scriptures? Or is that upto the Grand lodge?


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## Glen Cook (Nov 22, 2016)

RhushidaK said:


> Owww.. 1 Yes of course
> But for 2, is that allowed? Allowing membership to only those who have revealed scriptures? Or is that upto the Grand lodge?


Yes, yes, and yes, as seen in the link.

Remember, we have GLs which are Christian, and until 1984, UGLE condoned excluding Latter-day Saints.


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## RhushidaK (Nov 22, 2016)

Ouch.. That's sad.. My personal opinion of course. Freemasonry should be for all. Not including women, I can understand, since it's a fraternity. Atheists I can understand since Freemasonry is based on the fatherhood of God. But it's sad if a GL limits people according to religion or race or sexual orientation.. Hope they change that one day.


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## dfreybur (Nov 22, 2016)

I don't think the word "irreligious" works for men who are not members of any specific religion, but that's a terminology issue.

A friend asked me about the Masons then mentioned that he didn't believe in churches.  I responded that Masonry requires a belief in a supreme being and that's not the same as human organizations.  This led to a year of discussions over lunch.  Then he asked for a petition and I helped him select a lodge and work through his degrees.  He was a man of faith without a specific religion or church.

Masonry teaches us to be better members of our chosen church and also to be more generous of heart.  My friend took those lessons to heart and ended up attending a local church.  As he'd started out believing in the existence of a supreme being he didn't need to convert he just started showing up.  His objections had been to the history of the human organization.

Deists have been fairly common in Masonry in the US.  It's an idea that becomes more then less popular across the decades.  As the idea accepts the existence of a supreme being deists have long been welcome in our lodges.


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## RhushidaK (Nov 22, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Masonry teaches us to be better members of our chosen church



INTERESTING.... This just lit up my philosophical lightbulb as a panentheist  Truly Freemasonry sheds light on us, in unique ways.


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## deministri (Nov 22, 2016)

I feel im both: deist since i belive in the Grand architect and do not follow any dogma. Irreligious because i dont follow any but, i respect and honor all believes. 

Sent from my XT1563 using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## Bloke (Nov 22, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Two different issues arise.  1.   Not believing in a revealed text does not prohibit taking an obligation on such. 2. In some jurisdictions, membership would be prohibited. For instance, Texas requires on its petition for the degrees a belief in the the divine  authenticity of the volume of sacred law (and the US Constitution). http://grandlodgeoftexas.org/assets/uploads/2015/10/26.pdf



Wow. Thank you for that link Bro Glen.

 "Firm belief" in the Divine Authenticity of the VSL... i did not know that. If we had that here, we'd have A LOT less Freemasons. If that had of been a requirement, I would not have been able to join.. or would have spent a long time Soul Searching... All other questions, including components of that one and even belief in the USA Const are okay but if you put the form in front of me right now, I would not be able to sign it. I'd cross that out and take my chances. Would the same be true for affiliation ? Looks like I can't be a Texan Freemason under that GL..


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 22, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Wow. Thank you for that link Bro Glen.
> 
> "Firm belief" in the Divine Authenticity of the VSL... i did not know that. If we had that here, we'd have A LOT less Freemasons. If that had of been a requirement, I would not have been able to join.. or would have spent a long time Soul Searching... All other questions, including components of that one and even belief in the USA Const are okay but if you put the form in front of me right now, I would not be able to sign it. I'd cross that out and take my chances. Would the same be true for affiliation ? Looks like I can't be a Texan Freemason under that GL..


Are u saying because u r Australian you dont believe in the authority of the US Constitution?  what about if unwere visiting the US? Would u follow our laws?  To me that is believing in the constitution.....

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## RhushidaK (Nov 23, 2016)

Ripcord22A said:


> Are u saying because u r Australian you dont believe in the authority of the US Constitution? what about if unwere visiting the US? Would u follow our laws? To me that is believing in the constitution.....



Well believing in the constitution would mean one thing. Being governed by them would be another. Much like an Australian would not be governed by the US Constitution in Australia, a Christian would not believe that a Quran is divine revelation, and vice versa. Which is where the difference between Freemasons and common men would come in. We have divine revelations/divine will of our own faiths in God. We need not believe that all books are divine revelation, but we still give respect to all VSLs. That is where Brotherhood would come in. Likewise, irreligious or deists might not have a revealed scripture, but they have respect for and take their obligations on VSLs still, as symbolic of Divinity. (My interpretation; This may be different for other brethren).

So likewise, I may not believe in any revealed scripture, but I still took my obs on a Gita, as symbolic of the will of God. For me, it would be the same even I took my obs on a Bible, Quran, Torah, Tripitaka, Jefferson Bible, Guru Granth Sahib, Zend Avesta or a blank book (much like normal water blessed to make holy water). Since for me, it signifies the greatness of God over man, and our inferiority portrayed by us not knowing God's will.


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## Bloke (Nov 23, 2016)

Ripcord22A said:


> Are u saying because u r Australian you dont believe in the authority of the US Constitution?  what about if unwere visiting the US? Would u follow our laws?  To me that is believing in the constitution.....
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry mobile app



No my friend, I'm saying I would have not problem saying (or swearing) I have a firm belief in the US Constitution .... my issue would be solely on the "Firm belief " of the  devine authenticity of any VSL, even the Bible, which is the Holy Text of my faith.


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## Bloke (Nov 23, 2016)

Bloke said:


> No my friend, I'm saying I would have not problem saying (or swearing) I have a firm belief in the US Constitution .... my issue would be solely on the "Firm belief " of the  devine authenticity of any VSL, even the Bible, which is the Holy Text of my faith.


Actually... requiring a firm belief in the "divine authority" of a VSL kinda conflicts with the right to Religious Freedom protected *in* the Constitution.... that Constitutional  clause is the sort of thing which makes the USA Constitution a great document.....


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## MarkR (Nov 23, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Actually... requiring a firm belief in the "divine authority" of a VSL kinda conflicts with the right to Religious Freedom protected *in* the Constitution.... that Constitutional  clause is the sort of thing which makes the USA Constitution a great document.....


No, not really.  The Constitution constrains the government from interfering in religion, it does not constrain private organizations from having rules.


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## SimonM (Nov 23, 2016)

Ripcord22A said:


> Are u saying because u r Australian you dont believe in the authority of the US Constitution?  what about if unwere visiting the US? Would u follow our laws?  To me that is believing in the constitution.....



I thought that was a strange requirement as well. Of course the constitution as a legal document is something that exist. That’s not a question of belief. I interpreted it as a belief in the philosophical ideas expressed in the constitution, but as a foreigner I would not be able to give a good explanation of those ideas.

Do I misunderstand that requirement?


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## Bloke (Nov 23, 2016)

MarkR said:


> No, not really.  The Constitution constrains the government from interfering in religion, it does not constrain private organizations from having rules.



Nice point....

However  ...  here Freemasonry stays out of religion, and the status of the Bible is a question of Religious Doctrine, hence it is strange to me to see that creep into the Craft, but I also well understand the more Christian character of Freemasonry in some American States.... make no mistake, I'm not attacking anyone over this point ( just in case some might think I am) but my concept of ( regular) Freemasonry is a diverse group of men, many from diverse religions, all with the belief in GAOTU but leaving the details of that to each Brother..... even if you  narrow the VSL to the Bible, which version (_translation_) does your GL choose ? ( a rhetorical question best left to the Church each man belongs to or his own heart as his conscience guides him, not a GL as the GL is then not only in the domain of religion but religious doctrine IMHO ).

I hope people see where I am coming from and am close to hearing myself tell me to shut up cause I'm talking religion...


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## Bloke (Nov 23, 2016)

SimonM said:


> I thought that was a strange requirement as well. Of course the constitution as a legal document is something that exist. That’s not a question of belief. I interpreted it as a belief in the philosophical ideas expressed in the constitution, but as a foreigner I would not be able to give a good explanation of those ideas.
> 
> Do I misunderstand that requirement?



I don't think that one is strange cause in our ritual we're told to obey the laws of the country in which we reside and in the US the Constitution is at the basis of that


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## SimonM (Nov 23, 2016)

Bloke said:


> I don't think that one is strange cause in our ritual we're told to obey the laws of the country in which we reside and in the US the Constitution is at the basis of that



What I’m trying to say is that asking if you have a belief in it feels weird. If the question would be framed something like “do you swear to follow the principles and laws outlined in the constitution” I would have no problem with it. But now I have to believe in it? Perhaps it’s just that English is not my native language but for me that wording implies something more than just follow the laws of the nation.


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## pointwithinacircle2 (Nov 23, 2016)

A study of logic tells me that no one else can have my feelings, that they are mine alone.  While you my think that you understand my feelings because you have had feelings similar to mine, you cannot understand my feelings with 100% accuracy because you cannot experience my feelings.  In the same way that humans cannot feel each others feelings, they cannot know each others beliefs.  A man may think he understands another mans beliefs, but since he cannot experience those beliefs he will always be limited in his ability to understand them.

Therefore, each man is the only person who can say whether his beliefs meet the guidelines laid out by Freemasonry.  This is an important point to me because I have pondered long and hard on it during my Masonic career.  This principle explains to me why we are able to sit comfortably in Lodge with men of different faiths.  Because no matter what name a man calls his God, The meaning that God has to the individual can be known only by him.  Therefore I recognize that I am incapable of judging a mans relationship to God because I can not truly know it.


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## Bloke (Nov 23, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> If it were possible to use the "plumbline" in a moral sense it would be possible to measure the trueness of any human to God.


I hear what you are saying and can picture the mental image you're evoking - but move on that line ( in 2nd WTs) and it's all about behaviours not faith ( and potential result of that behaviour)


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 23, 2016)

Depends on which hand u use.  If i use my right hand rotating things clock wise is more comfortable and if I use my left its counter clockwise...as that is the natural way the wrist rotates.

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## jermy Bell (Nov 24, 2016)

My great grandmother was Roman catholic, and later in life fell from the church,reasons unknown, we were taught just because our family faith was Roman catholic, didnt mean that we couldn't explore other religions and faiths. But was also taught that one does not have to belong to any one certain faith or church in order to belive in the one true deity. And that you lived a clean and upstanding life that you would gain entrance into the kingdom above, now with that last part being said, it almost fits the apron ceremony,  that you keep your apron unstained from the world.and keep your 4 fold duty.


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## Canadian Paul (Nov 30, 2016)

Bro. Cook said : "Two different issues arise. 1. Not believing in a revealed text does not prohibit taking an obligation on such. 2. In some jurisdictions, membership would be prohibited. For instance, Texas requires on its petition for the degrees a belief in the the divine authenticity of the volume of sacred law (and the US Constitution). http://grandlodgeoftexas.org/assets/uploads/2015/10/26.pdf"

The application form linked above contains this question

:15. Do you believe in the Constitution of the United States? ______________________________________________ (Yes or No)

What exactly does it mean by 'believe'? Is it claiming the U.S. Constitution has divine authority?  My Grand Lodge (Scotland) requires that I should 'pay due obedience to the law of any state in which (I) reside' but adds "and must never be remiss in the allegiance due to the sovereign of (my) native land.' 
('Aims and Relationships of the Craft - Item 5)

So if living in Texas I am obliged to obey its laws but not to forget that I am a Canadian and not an American.  For example, I respect the American flag and what it stands for, but could not, in all conscience, pledge allegiance to it. Does that mean that, if living and working in Texas, I could not affiliate with a Texas lodge?


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## dfreybur (Dec 1, 2016)

Interesting question on the pledge.  In California I know a lodge that asks US citizens to pledge at opening.

In Texas we pledge both the US and Texas flags but I have not checked if there is a rule that mandates it. There are enough citizens of other countries there is likely a ruling on the topic.


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## Ripcord22A (Dec 1, 2016)

Canadian Paul said:


> Bro. Cook said : "Two different issues arise. 1. Not believing in a revealed text does not prohibit taking an obligation on such. 2. In some jurisdictions, membership would be prohibited. For instance, Texas requires on its petition for the degrees a belief in the the divine authenticity of the volume of sacred law (and the US Constitution). http://grandlodgeoftexas.org/assets/uploads/2015/10/26.pdf"
> 
> The application form linked above contains this question
> 
> ...


Im gonna go way out in left field and say that if u moved to the US for purposes of living and working indefinately and you couldn't pledge alegience to your adopted home id kindly ask u go back wjere ya came from....lol.....but seriously if ur just there temporarily i don't see why it would be a problem.  We have a 2x PM in my lodge here who is a Canadian citizen but has permanent residency here and stands places his hand over his heart and says the pledge every meeting...oh and he was initiated in Texas

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## Bloke (Dec 1, 2016)

Ripcord22A said:


> Im gonna go way out in left field and say that if u moved to the US for purposes of living and working indefinately and you couldn't pledge alegience to your adopted home id kindly ask u go back wjere ya came from....lol.....but seriously if ur just there temporarily i don't see why it would be a problem.  We have a 2x PM in my lodge here who is a Canadian citizen but has permanent residency here and stands places his hand over his heart and says the pledge every meeting...oh and he was initiated in Texas
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry mobile app



I think if you are not willing to live under the laws of a western democracy like American, then yes, it's not a place you have the right to reside in or visit.


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## RhushidaK (Dec 1, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Interesting question on the pledge.  In California I know a lodge that asks US citizens to pledge at opening.
> 
> In Texas we pledge both the US and Texas flags but I have not checked if there is a rule that mandates it. There are enough citizens of other countries there is likely a ruling on the topic.



Here in India, (or at least in my lodge; don't know about others), we do sing the national anthem at the end of every lodge meeting. That would be the Indian equivalent of pledging your allegiance to the flag in USA. So I guess we're not that different after all..


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## dfreybur (Dec 2, 2016)

RhushidaK said:


> Here in India, (or at least in my lodge; don't know about others), we do sing the national anthem at the end of every lodge meeting. That would be the Indian equivalent of pledging your allegiance to the flag in USA. So I guess we're not that different after all..



To me it is the same concept.  Others disagree.  That's how politics works so we avoid discussing it in lodge.

The pledge is not a part of a degree ceremony.  It's a part of the opening.  In one of my jurisdictions it is done before the opening starts so it isn't even a part of the ceremonial work - A technicality.  I would not even notice if a Brother stood silently saluting.

One of my early mentors said something like this -

I'm happy to salute the Mexican flag if they do that when I'm visiting.  I'm happy to salute any flag of whatever country I'm visiting.  I'll salute and remain silent.


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## CLewey44 (Dec 10, 2016)

RhushidaK said:


> Are there any deists or irreligious, regular Freemasons here? If so, what do you have as VSL while swearing? And how do you see them as in general?
> 
> Note: Irreligious here would denote Freemasons who believe in a god, but do not follow any religion.



For me personally, as a Mason, I have respect for all religions and if I were in a lodge in Istanbul, Delhi, Jerusalem, NYC or wherever, that VSL would be sworn upon with equal fervency and sincerity.


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## Warrior1256 (Dec 20, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> A blank book is specifically prohibited in some jurisdictions, as it cannot contain the revealed word of God.


Interesting, this had never occurred to me. Will check this out in my lodges as a matter of curiosity.


deministri said:


> I feel im both: deist since i belive in the Grand architect and do not follow any dogma. Irreligious because i dont follow any but, i respect and honor all believes.


I like this.


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## 88DAM88 (Feb 6, 2017)

I would posit that a blank book could constitute a VSL.

Many Masons believe scientific texts are also inspired and enlightened words revealing Sacred principles. For many Masons, Natural Law and Sacred Law are inseparable. The word _Geometry_, after all, was for the longest time, well known and generally accepted as a synonym of the word _Masonry_.

Masonry definitely has room for conscious and enlightened men of science and for those for whom any thing contemplated can shed light, educate, illustrate and speak "volumes" about the Order and Sacredness of the Universe and Life. A Mason who believes in One Supreme Being may be a Mason who believes in Oneness or wholeness or the Supreme Reality of Indivisibility and Unity of all. One may see the physical world as both container and manifestation of Natural or Sacred Law, echoing Voltaire "_God is an infinite sphere whose center is everywhere, and whose circumference is nowhere,_” and Blaise Pascal, “_Nature is an infinite sphere whose center is everywhere, and whose circumference is nowhere_.” One may see Nature and Natural Law as a revealed manifestation of God's Law.

Too many Masons only think of the word volume in one sense, however, it's secondary definition may also apply

*Vol·ume*
[ˈvälyəm, ˈvälˌyo͞om]
*NOUN*

a book forming part of a work or series.
*the amount of space that a substance or object occupies, or that is enclosed within a container, especially when great:*

"Emptiness" is also a great concept for Buddhist and Taoist Brethren, which does not denote the nullity nor Nihilism that many unstudied in these philosophies or the practices of meditation fear, but an indefinable, unnameable quality to God or Nature, far beyond our ken and limited understanding. It is a position of accepting vulnerability, fallibility, not-knowing and submission in opposition to bull-headedness, vanity, narcissistic, know-it-all bluster that often accompanies those who over-identify with the Ego.

*Sa·cred*
[ˈsākrəd]
*ADJECTIVE*

*connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration:*

Although I personally think an acorn or a leaf would be a more elegant adornment befitting the altar than a blank book, a blank book would, by it's very composition of paper and glue, still be comprised of manifest laws and the study of it would reveal order and interconnection. And, if the Mason delving into it's mystery were capable of applying the secrets therein to his life to better it and thus benefit all mankind by it's communication, it would be a great and admirable and _laudable _undertaking.

I believe that Masonry values education and illumination and life-long learning and betterment of each man specifically, and mankind in general. This great and honorable fraternity could hope for nothing more than to attract the most educated and intelligent men into its brotherhood. The great destiny of mankind is one of Unity and Order, Peace and Tranquility, Fraternity and Harmony, thus it is understood that through education and illumination Man might achieve a state beyond divisive, tribal, discriminatory ideas or sectarian religion and predatory or party politics (considered by many Masons to be ignorant, intolerant and tyrannical darknesses in which any enlightened man would not long dwell), perhaps one day needing neither as guides.

*Law*
[lô]
*NOUN*

(the law)
the system of rules that a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and may enforce by the imposition of penalties:
"they were taken to court for breaking the law" · 
[more]


*a statement of fact, deduced from observation, to the effect that a particular natural or scientific phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions are present:*
"the second law of thermodynamics"


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## Elexir (Feb 6, 2017)

I understand your proposition.

However I would argue that becuse of the nature of the masons work is of spiritual nature a belif and understanding of a higher power is needed and not just scientific understanding of the outside.

The breaking down is intressting but in the end pointless unless we want to asume that masonry is 100% litteral.
The law that is refered to in the VSL not only gives the rules to religon (as a lawbook do) but it also provides comfort and for a lack of better word, initiation into life.


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## Glen Cook (Feb 6, 2017)

88DAM88 said:


> I would posit that a blank book could constitute a VSL.
> 
> Many Masons believe scientific texts are also inspired and enlightened words revealing Sacred principles. For many Masons, Natural Law and Sacred Law are inseparable. The word _Geometry_, after all, was for the longest time, well known and generally accepted as a synonym of the word _Masonry_.
> 
> ...


My ruling was to the contrary; that a blank text is not the revealed word of G-d.

Further, utilizing the definitions above, a blank page would appear to be the antithesis of connection; demonstrating the lack of connection.

It would also promote a single Man's definition of what should be on those pages above that of Deity.  It is the opposite of the humble, reverent, childlike attitude we are to assume upon entering our Masonic endeavors.   We are to submit our will to G-d's, not tell him what His will should be.


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## dfreybur (Feb 6, 2017)

88DAM88 said:


> I would posit that a blank book could constitute a VSL.



I get the idea behind the approach.  I have two issues with the approach.

1) If it's blank it does not describe laws.  As such it fails an important part of the concept.  A couple of years ago there was a case of a Brother who asked that an Eagle Feather be used in his obligations folded into a book so the forms could be observed.  At least a feather is not blank.

2) Blank books tend to be used as objections to non-blank books.  Outside context and the attitude they carry matter.

I think you miss the point on science.  Science is not laws.  Science is a process that searches for laws.  Done right science answers those questions which religion does not ask.  Done right religion answers those questions which science does not ask.  Science is not a matter of faith.  Religion and science overlap through imagination not through faith.


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## coachn (Feb 6, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> I don't think the word "irreligious" works for men who are not members of any specific religion, but that's a terminology issue.


Agreed!


dfreybur said:


> Masonry teaches us to be better members of our chosen church...


I disagree.  Masonry teaches us to be better, period.  Freemasonry encourages us to be better, period.  Church is not involved, unless you want it to be.


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## coachn (Feb 6, 2017)

It's quite interesting the takes every one has on this VoSL thing.  It's all symbolic.  The book only matters to the person going through the degree(s).  Each candidate is blind folded and believes the book he is obligating himself upon is the one he has chosen.  It could be blank up until his hoodwink comes off, swapped out and he wouldn't know the difference.  

And in truth, if it is indeed symbolic, the props used should not matter at all, unless it would negatively affect the feel for the candidate going through the ceremony, not the people putting on the ritual play.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 6, 2017)

Elexir said:


> However I would argue that becuse of the nature of the masons work is of spiritual nature a belif and understanding of a higher power is needed and not just scientific understanding of the outside.





Glen Cook said:


> My ruling was to the contrary; that a blank text is not the revealed word of G-d.
> 
> Further, utilizing the definitions above, a blank page would appear to be the antithesis of connection; demonstrating the lack of connection.


Agreed.


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## dfreybur (Feb 7, 2017)

coachn said:


> The book only matters to the person going through the degree(s).



If only that were the case.   Were it the case no Brother would report having been to degrees with certain VSLs, among other happenings.  Your statement is an ideal many Brothers work to live up to not the way it actually happens.


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## coachn (Feb 7, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> If only that were the case.   Were it the case no Brother would report having been to degrees with certain VSLs, among other happenings.  Your statement is an ideal many Brothers work to live up to not the way it actually happens.


Yep.  And if we remain true to the ideals, we wouldn't have so many ruffians ruling the roost.


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## RhushidaK (Feb 7, 2017)

Well brethren the problem with *only *revealed scriptures as VSLs is that some religions don't actually have revealed scriptures in the conventional sense, like in Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. The scriptures are not revealed by God to man, but are realized by man as a part of the unwritten will of God, or the patterns of the universe, and so on. Like the Vedas are not revealed scriptures but realized scriptures. So are Buddhist and Jain sutras. So while some religions have a man appointed as a prophet to give humanity the will of God, others have man reaching out to God and obtaining that wisdom. So a layman cannot write a scripture, unless he goes through extremities to realize God, the world, and himself.

In the end of course, considering the goal of Freemasonry to make a good man better, and that of his chosen VSLs as the point of focus of his conscience, I don't think a blank book should be a problem. For me, it would be symbolic of the unwritten will of God, which mankind's goal is to realize.


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## Bloke (Feb 7, 2017)

coachn said:


> .... The book only matters to the person going through the degree(s).  ..



By extension that logic says a dictionary is okay. I think there is a certain spirit of faith for all in using an actual VSL, regardless of which VSL is used...


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## coachn (Feb 7, 2017)

Bloke said:


> By extension that logic says a dictionary is okay. I think there is a certain spirit of faith for all in using an actual VSL, regardless of which VSL is used...


It truly depends what you want the ritual play to be for yourself.  Some candidates take it in literally and want to get swept away in the authenticity that is being symbolically portrayed.  Others understand it for what it actually is, symbolic, so it doesn't matter what book is used since what they know that they are doing is re-enacting and using props to do this.


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## Bloke (Feb 8, 2017)

coachn said:


> It truly depends what you want the ritual play to be for yourself.  Some candidates take it in literally and want to get swept away in the authenticity that is being symbolically portrayed.  Others understand it for what it actually is, symbolic, so it doesn't matter what book is used since what they know that they are doing is re-enacting and using props to do this.



I think it might upset some folk to refer to their VSL as a "prop". I think i dont feel comfortable to hear someones VSL decribed like that. 

You and I agree on a lot of stuff, but are very opposed in others... but that's one of the beauties of Freemasonry for me, that it brings diverse (and sometimes opposed men ) together.I always  say, Freemasonry is about what unites and not what divides men. I think one of the ingredients in that mix is mutual respect.... and just because I'm upset by a view another might have, that does not mean I'm right and they are wrong..

One thing's for sure Coach, I'm much more likely to learn from you than someone I always agree with  Thanks for the time you spend with us.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 8, 2017)

Bloke said:


> You and I agree on a lot of stuff, but are very opposed in others... but that's one of the beauties of Freemasonry for me, that it brings diverse (and sometimes opposed men ) together.I always say, Freemasonry is about what unites and not what divides men. I think one of the ingredients in that mix is mutual respect.... and just because I'm upset by a view another might have, that does not mean I'm right and they are wrong..


Absolutely!


Bloke said:


> One thing's for sure Coach, I'm much more likely to learn from you than someone I always agree with  Thanks for the time you spend with us.


Agreed!


----------



## coachn (Feb 8, 2017)

Bloke said:


> I think it might upset some folk to refer to their VSL as a "prop". I think i dont feel comfortable to hear someones VSL decribed like that.


I didn't at first either, until I recognized that ritual is not about a man's religion; it's about his faith.  If a man requires a VSL as a prop for his ritual experience, by God, you'd better provide it for him or the whole experience is gonna suck for him.


Bloke said:


> You and I agree on a lot of stuff, but are very opposed in others... but that's one of the beauties of Freemasonry for me, that it brings diverse (and sometimes opposed men ) together.I always  say, Freemasonry is about what unites and not what divides men. I think one of the ingredients in that mix is mutual respect.... and just because I'm upset by a view another might have, that does not mean I'm right and they are wrong..


The magic in sharing opinions is recognizing every person has one and if you want yours to be respected, you had best set an overwhelmingly good example for others or you'll reap the rewards of your overwhelmingly bad example.


Bloke said:


> One thing's for sure Coach, I'm much more likely to learn from you than someone I always agree with  Thanks for the time you spend with us.


You're most welcome.  Thanks for inspiring me ad nausea.    Without your prompting, much of what you see me post here would not exist. 

So, what I'm saying is you are to blame. ;-)


----------



## 88DAM88 (Feb 15, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> My ruling was to the contrary; that a blank text is not the revealed word of G-d.
> 
> Further, utilizing the definitions above, a blank page would appear to be the antithesis of connection; demonstrating the lack of connection.
> 
> It would also promote a single Man's definition of what should be on those pages above that of Deity.  It is the opposite of the humble, reverent, childlike attitude we are to assume upon entering our Masonic endeavors.   We are to submit our will to G-d's, not tell him what His will should be.



These responses are too shallow in my opinion. Not seeing the forest for the trees. The world created by G-d is his word to me, not those written by well meaning men. Was G-ds will not known to man before written language and books? Many take the "word of G-d" far too literally. The blankness or lack of words does not connote a lack of revealed word of G-d; the paper itself, the elements and INTERCONNECTION of all things to make it, for it to be, in it's very state of being and manifestation of sacred laws, the atoms and physical properties the mathematical geometries of physical matter of Nature far exceed, in my opinion, any words or concepts man might write on those pages...remember that the stones themselves can reveal truth, the world around me is "revealed" enough for me, and is word of G-d enough for me. The study of those blank pages would reveal all the secrets of the Universe if one delved deep enough. For some, Masonry and Spirituality are not shallow and wisdom is not found only at the written words at the page level...but far deeper. Creation and the laws of creation are revelation and a suitable path of higher knowledge and higher spirituality. The original manifestation of the word of G-d is the creation of space and matter. I invite you to go deeper than printed words of men, and into the living word of G-d as the manifest Universe, or Single Oneness. Many of us do not believe in a supernatural, but in Oneness and levels of perception. You speak of "humble, reverent, childlike attitude we are to assume upon entering our Masonic endeavors.   We are to submit our will to G-d's, not tell him what His will should be." and yet this is exactly what we do when we ignore the truth of the Supreme Reality in favor of the vain and self-glorified ideas of the religions of man. Masonry should take one beyond the personal religion to the Universal and non-divisive, non-sectarian. 

"Out beyond ideas of wrong doing and right doing there is a field. I'll meet you there."
~Rumi


----------



## 88DAM88 (Feb 15, 2017)

dfreybur said:


> I get the idea behind the approach.  I have two issues with the approach.
> 
> 1) If it's blank it does not describe laws.  As such it fails an important part of the concept.  A couple of years ago there was a case of a Brother who asked that an Eagle Feather be used in his obligations folded into a book so the forms could be observed.  At least a feather is not blank.
> 
> ...



Science is educating oneself to the Laws. Education is seeking the subtle revelations. Religion and science are converging in our day and age as each is finding that the others path is also true and moving toward the same point. There are many Laws that can be discovered in a blank book, they are revealed not by words of men, but by the Geometry and design of matter of which the books are composed. Many believe the world we are in and of and a part of is the revealed Word and that Nature or "Grand Architecture" as created by the God of Nature or GAOTU is revelation enough, that in forms and geometry, Laws can be revealed . . . is Masonry not a beautiful system of morality veiled in allegory?


----------



## 88DAM88 (Feb 15, 2017)

Elexir said:


> I understand your proposition.
> 
> However I would argue that becuse of the nature of the masons work is of spiritual nature a belif and understanding of a higher power is needed and not just scientific understanding of the outside.
> 
> ...



What is your definition of spiritual?

Do you not see scientific delving and discovery as a path of discovering the higher power?

Can having faith in Nature and Natural Law not also be faith in the will of TGAOTU?

Masonry is VERY literal, the words are chosen with great precision, to the highest degree of understanding of those who wrote them, anyway. If we discount communication through language, either spoken or written, as not being "literal" that is, not true to it's symbolic representation of ideas, then are we really communicating. People like to say, "Oh that's just semantics," but semantics is the study of meaning. Language is a code, it is abstract symbols used to convey concrete ideas.

Nature's Laws teach us how to live. The study of Nature and connection to it provides comfort to many who put their faith in it. The material world, our Universe is our home, it's design and manifestation "by word alone" as the allegory goes, by the Creator or TGAOTU, and in it's design and geometry, as manifest word, we see the allegories of much that any written word of man only pales in comparison with. In my opinion. 

For me story and allegory and scientific knowledge are spiritual. The spiritual gift of knowledge is also known as the “word of knowledge” or “utterance of knowledge.” The Greek word for this gift is Gnosis and it simply means knowledge and understanding. The Scriptural emphasis in 1 Corinthians 12:8 is on the ability to speak this knowledge to others in a given situation. 

It has been said that God is the author of such knowledge; and that _flesh and blood reveals it_. Mortal men are capable of imparting the knowledge of human arts and sciences, and skill in temporal affairs. God is the author of such knowledge by those means: _flesh and blood_ is employed as the _mediate_ 
or _second_ cause of it; He conveys it by the power and influence of natural means. This to me is also is Spiritual Light.

I hope that my comments and contribution to this discussion can fall on some receptive ears who are open to receive it, and thereby, gain more Light and grow closer to men of other wisdom traditions besides those of written word and organized religions.


----------



## Glen Cook (Feb 15, 2017)

88DAM88 said:


> These responses are too shallow in my opinion. Not seeing the forest for the trees. The world created by G-d is his word to me, not those written by well meaning men. Was G-ds will not known to man before written language and books? Many take the "word of G-d" far too literally. The blankness or lack of words does not connote a lack of revealed word of G-d; the paper itself, the elements and INTERCONNECTION of all things to make it, for it to be, in it's very state of being and manifestation of sacred laws, the atoms and physical properties the mathematical geometries of physical matter of Nature far exceed, in my opinion, any words or concepts man might write on those pages...remember that the stones themselves can reveal truth, the world around me is "revealed" enough for me, and is word of G-d enough for me. The study of those blank pages would reveal all the secrets of the Universe if one delved deep enough. For some, Masonry and Spirituality are not shallow and wisdom is not found only at the written words at the page level...but far deeper. Creation and the laws of creation are revelation and a suitable path of higher knowledge and higher spirituality. The original manifestation of the word of G-d is the creation of space and matter. I invite you to go deeper than printed words of men, and into the living word of G-d as the manifest Universe, or Single Oneness. Many of us do not believe in a supernatural, but in Oneness and levels of perception. You speak of "humble, reverent, childlike attitude we are to assume upon entering our Masonic endeavors.   We are to submit our will to G-d's, not tell him what His will should be." and yet this is exactly what we do when we ignore the truth of the Supreme Reality in favor of the vain and self-glorified ideas of the religions of man. Masonry should take one beyond the personal religion to the Universal and non-divisive, non-sectarian.
> 
> "Out beyond ideas of wrong doing and right doing there is a field. I'll meet you there."
> ~Rumi


You draw an artificial dichotomy. Studying scriptures does not preclude going deeper than the printed word. Many of us believe in personal revelation.

Edit: you also  operate from the premise that all scriptures are the written word of man. Not all of us, and not all GLs, accept that premise.


----------



## Elexir (Feb 15, 2017)

88DAM88 said:


> What is your definition of spiritual?
> 
> Do you not see scientific delving and discovery as a path of discovering the higher power?
> 
> ...



My defenition of spiritual is that you belive in a supreme entety that reveals higher understanding thats beyond human and scientific understanding.

The words are chosen becuse they were not meant to be taken litteraly, they are only there to be pointers.

The dictomy between religion and science is a new idea, wich the Jesuits are good evidence for.
When modern freemasonry started to apear in the 1700s science and religion where highly entertwined with each other.


----------



## coachn (Feb 16, 2017)

88DAM88 said:


> What is your definition of spiritual?


Recognizable and discernible patterns that transcend time and space, which animate time and space and which make souls possible through clearly recognizable and discernible processes.


88DAM88 said:


> Do you not see scientific delving and discovery as a path of discovering the higher power?


No.  I do see it as a possible path.


88DAM88 said:


> Can having faith in Nature and Natural Law not also be faith in the will of TGAOTU?


Define "Faith".


88DAM88 said:


> Masonry is VERY literal, the words are chosen with great precision, to the highest degree of understanding of those who wrote them, anyway.


You are mistaken.  Although some Freemasons may be very literal, Freemasonry points, and with great reoccurrence through inculcation, with metaphor, allegory and a host of figures of speech (you know, non literal stuff) toward many transcendent things that could not possibly be understood if one remained Literal in one's thoughts.  In fact, one critical part of Masonic development is training the figurative mind and is pointed toward by suggestion to study and know the Trivium.


----------



## Warrior1256 (Feb 16, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> You draw an artificial dichotomy. Studying scriptures does not preclude going deeper than the printed word. Many of us believe in personal revelation.
> 
> Edit: you also operate from the premise that all scriptures are the written word of man. Not all of us, and not all GLs, accept that premise.





Elexir said:


> My defenition of spiritual is that you belive in a supreme entety that reveals higher understanding thats beyond human and scientific understanding.





coachn said:


> Recognizable and discernible patterns that transcend time and space, which animate time and space and which make souls possible through clearly recognizable and discernible processes.





coachn said:


> Although some Freemasons may be very literal, Freemasonry points, and with great reoccurrence through inculcation, with metaphor, allegory and a host of figures of speech (you know, non literal stuff) toward many transcendent things that could not possibly be understood if one remained Literal in one's thoughts. In fact, one critical part of Masonic development is training the figurative mind and is pointed toward by suggestion to study and know the Trivium.


Agreed!


----------



## Bro MBGellner RAM; 32nd (Mar 10, 2017)

It is easy to become obsessed with a billion explanations of our symbols. The craftsman should reflect on his teachings and works. The deeper meanings will occur to you more over time and with practiced reflection.

In the end, we are but a copy made in an image. And our teachings are to practice this image. It is a sacred truth that if you are a copy; then the one true form exists. We are rough longing to be perfect and by the symbolism of the dialogue the allegory teachings are a prophecy to us that the perfect one does exist.

God is at its center
And we are God's followers.
God calls us a priesthood.
We are the priests. 
We have chosen a side because we choose light. Light is good. And there is no darkness in God.


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## 88DAM88 (Mar 12, 2017)

coachn said:


> Recognizable and discernible patterns that transcend time and space, which animate time and space and which make souls possible through clearly recognizable and discernible processes.
> 
> No.  I do see it as a possible path.
> 
> ...



A. I respect your view, however, I am a bit taken aback by a man who says that he does not trust inquiry and observation and study and delving in depth into matter and spirit is a valid path of gaining wisdom and insight. Even the bible says that the stones speak truth to those who will listen. Masonry was founded in science as a way to know higher laws and workings. Freemasonry is not a religion, but a fraternity and a wisdom path to me. Why do we even have the Staircase Lecture then, why is Freemasonry's main charity the advancement of education? Is the Trivium not science?

B) faith
[fāTH]
*NOUN*

complete trust or confidence in someone or something:
C) Of course the allegories are not literal, but they point to the literal spirit behind the words. When I say that Freemasonry is literal I am speaking of the ritual. These words are the exact correct words, irreplaceable by others as the meaning would change. This was crafted by highly educated scholars and Masons in a VERY deliberate and intentional manner. Such things as our Constitution and Declaration of Independence are also crafted with this same precision. I would say that your assertion that freemasons may be literal but that Freemasonry is not would be as incorrect as my mis-stated sentence about Freemasonry being very literal. 

I also wish to express my gratitude for your continued conversation on this topic. Much to learn, interesting perspectives, not mine, but that is what Brotherhood is all about, is it not? Learning from each other? This, in my opinion is why there are more than one of us.  
Thank you for your opinions, your scholarship, insight, knowledge and experience. I have been improved by the conversation.


----------



## 88DAM88 (Mar 12, 2017)

Elexir said:


> My defenition of spiritual is that you belive in a supreme entety that reveals higher understanding thats beyond human and scientific understanding.
> 
> The words are chosen becuse they were not meant to be taken litteraly, they are only there to be pointers.
> 
> ...




Interesting, your definition of spiritual is more a definition of religion and in my opinion somewhat touching on a definition of _spirituality_, but not of _spiritual_. My definition of spiritual is "_non-material._" I see matter and I see spirit, and I see that all of these are forms of energy. To me things of spirit are "meaning" "story" "ideas" thoughts" "intention" etc . . . 

Much of Freemasonry, the language of the rituals and constitutions are extremely literal, use of exact wording to denote specific ideas being conveyed . . . one could not take the rituals in their old precise English crafted with extreme intelligence and literacy and render them in a lesser, colloquial manner and still have the same meaning, nor the same esoteric or spiritual conveyance. There is of course, much use of allegory and parable and symbol in Freemasonry, but I see them used to point to, or express, specific philosophies of morality and ethos. Science and religion, just as philosophy and metaphysics diverged, however, they are reuniting in our time as deepening of discoveries and understanding in all these disciplines are bringing them all closer again.

Thank you for your contribution to this conversation. I am bettered by the interaction and value it greatly even though we may as of yet disagree on some aspects, this is the joy of Fraternity to me. To listen and discover and be thereby expanded in my understanding of Humanity.


----------



## 88DAM88 (Mar 12, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> You draw an artificial dichotomy. Studying scriptures does not preclude going deeper than the printed word. Many of us believe in personal revelation.
> 
> Edit: you also  operate from the premise that all scriptures are the written word of man. Not all of us, and not all GLs, accept that premise.



Ah! I agree, Sir.

True: Studying scriptures does not preclude going deeper than the printed word.
True: Many of us believe in personal revelation.
Personal revelation is the way we know for ourselves the most important truths of our existence. I agree, but would posit that one man's path of revelation or practice of path, does not negate the legitimacy of another man's valid personal path or valid personally valid practice . . . and thereby, that one may receive spiritual knowledge via science, and that one may know the will of God by the functioning of the Laws of Nature which are "His" design, his Grand Architecture. I feel that many Masons seem to forget that God is a word to refer to a concept, that GAOTU stands for Grand Architect Of The Universe, that any Supreme Being would then be The God of (who rules) Nature, or Nature's God, Nature's Architect. 

I would love to see a Sacred Volume of the Law actually written in the handwriting of God.....I believe in the bible it said that God gave Moses one once, but that Moses broke the tablets, and so God then had Moses dictate (write) them down. Inspired writings, I can understand that, but that could be as broad as any Mason's definition or understanding of God / Deity / Supreme Being / GAOTU. 

Grand Lodge's only dictate the politics of the Freemasonic organization / business, they do not define Freemasonry nor God to Mason's. They couldn't, otherwise there would be one Universal definition of it, all GL Constitutions would read the same etc .  .. just like there are SO many different churches, there is no one true truth. That is, _quite obviously_, each man's own personal territory of understanding and development. Freemasonry should be the Fraternity, a supportive scaffolding for each Brother to seek and explore and discover an define this.


----------



## coachn (Mar 12, 2017)

88DAM88 said:


> A. I respect your view, however, I am a bit taken aback by a man who says that he does not trust inquiry and observation and study and delving in depth into matter and spirit is a valid path of gaining wisdom and insight. .



I was quite specific when I used the word "*possible*".  You clearly have mistaken what I made effort to communicate.


----------



## 88DAM88 (Mar 16, 2017)

coachn said:


> I was quite specific when I used the word "*possible*".  You clearly have mistaken what I made effort to communicate.



You are correct again, Brother. Your response was "No. I do see it as a possible path." and I somehow misread that as No. I do not see it as a possible path." Your conveyance is clear to me, now that my error in perception has been corrected. Thank you.


----------



## Mark S (Apr 12, 2017)

This was a very good read. I am not a mason yet, and have been missing out on opportunities in the past. I always thought I tik all the mason boxes, but for the faith part. I life my life according to the good book of Christianity and respect and love other people's choice of faith. My wish to do good and end in a happy place is very important to me. Although I would not give myself the title of Christian as I do not practice it. This issue was always my greatest worry if I had the privilege of an interview. 

Sent from my SM-N910C using My Freemasonry mobile app


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## GGG (Apr 14, 2017)

Although I'm only in the beginning of the road towards entering a regular lodge, I already noticed a sharp state or feeling of active opposition towards the irregular philosophy in my country (and I think vice versa) -> not towards brothers in person, but rather towards the way of thinking). But I like the idea of having VSL/Bible as a philosophical, ethical scripture or a referral to any holy book and not Christian in a dogmatic way in particular. Religious, but not dogmatic. I wouldn't mind to find a bible an a regular lodge.


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## Warrior1256 (Apr 19, 2017)

GGG said:


> I wouldn't mind to find a bible an a regular lodge.


The best of luck to you!


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## GGG (Apr 19, 2017)

Warrior1256 said:


> The best of luck to you!


 tnx


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## Cruce (May 2, 2017)

I have a mixture of beliefs from Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism, Judaism, Gnostic teachings and ancient beliefs.


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## Cruce (May 2, 2017)

Regarding the U.S constitution, I believe it is technically null and void after the estate fractured into the original 13 colonies. It's a little legal technicality that's worth looking into. Also mentioning the constitution makes you a potential terrorist now by law and detainable indefinitely. Just some useful information.


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## coachn (May 3, 2017)

Cruce said:


> Regarding the U.S constitution, I believe it is technically null and void after the estate fractured into the original 13 colonies. It's a little legal technicality that's worth looking into. Also mentioning the constitution makes you a potential terrorist now by law and detainable indefinitely. Just some useful information.


Doesn't that make you a potential terrorist?


----------



## Warrior1256 (May 3, 2017)

coachn said:


> Doesn't that make you a potential terrorist?


Lol!


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## Keith C (May 3, 2017)

Cruce said:


> Regarding the U.S constitution, I believe it is technically null and void after the estate fractured into the original 13 colonies. It's a little legal technicality that's worth looking into. Also mentioning the constitution makes you a potential terrorist now by law and detainable indefinitely. Just some useful information.



So you are not a Mason, but know more about Freemasonry than the majority of posters here.

And you are not a US Citizen, but know more about the US Constitution than the majority of Constitutional scholars and Justices of the US Supreme Court?

Am I missing something?


----------



## Warrior1256 (May 3, 2017)

Keith C said:


> And you are not a US Citizen, but know more about the US Constitution than the majority of Constitutional scholars and Justices of the US Supreme Court?
> 
> Am I missing something?


I foresee some interesting discussions in the future with this fellow Cruce.


----------



## Cruce (May 3, 2017)

coachn said:


> Doesn't that make you a potential terrorist?



Luckily no. I Live in England 



Keith C said:


> So you are not a Mason, but know more about Freemasonry than the majority of posters here.
> 
> And you are not a US Citizen, but know more about the US Constitution than the majority of Constitutional scholars and Justices of the US Supreme Court?
> 
> Am I missing something?



When did I say i know more about the constitution than US scholars? lol

Where do you think I learned what I know about the constitution? American scholars and legal/Law experts.


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## Cruce (May 4, 2017)

Do you even know your country never really got independence from Britain and that the Queen is still the beneficiary of your social security system? America (land of the snakes - from Hopi native American language) is not even a country it's technically a corporation. Do you even know about your birth certificate bonds? Your country was not discovered by Christopher Columbus (that's not even his real name) it was discovered by Japanese and Chinese dynasties, then Vikings, celts etc and probably visited/discovered thousands of years before that as we have the ancient maps now. Due to the cestui que vie act of 1666 you don't even have rights or claim to property since you registered your birth certificate. Unless you provided proof of life within 7 years. You're classed by law as dead at sea you have no rights or claim to property. The Vatican owns all your stuff. Your car you don't own. when you registered it you gave away ownership, you're now just the "registered keeper". lol


There is so much people don't realise.


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## coachn (May 4, 2017)

Cruce said:


> Luckily no. I Live in England


Potential terrorists are not lucky to live outside the US borders.  

Guys, it's time to block the troll!


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## Cruce (May 4, 2017)

talk about misinterpret. I'm not a troll! If I wanted to troll I'd delete your website or create an account creating bot to create thousands of accounts and set them to just spam all your threads. (before you misinterpret that, that is NOT a threat to do so or an intention). I don't "troll" I have better things to do. Infact I've spent a lot of time combatting trolls, bots, spammers and scammers for multiple organisations and online businesses. I live in England therefore American law doesn't apply to me is what I meant -.-' for an "enlightened" "charitable" person you're pretty touchy and insulting.

So yeah thanks for that I feel so welcomed :/


coachn said:


> Potential terrorists are not lucky to live outside the US borders.
> 
> Guys, it's time to block the troll!



I'm not a potential terrorist as that law doesn't apply to me.

If it's something I've said that you would rather I didn't then private message me and I will keep such things to myself.  but say what you mean because the whole "troll" label is nonsense. I've been nothing but polite, friendly and engaging in conversation. Is that trolling?

About the only thing I've done wrong on this thread is be a little "off topic". But it's all relevant to the previous posts.

You're pushing me out when I could be VERY useful. If you block me it's your loss not mine. All of the  freemasonry secrets of the 33 degrees are already on the internet posted by ex 33rd degree freemasons. My Family are an occult family there's not much more I can learn from you anyway but I wanted to help. I already know all your rituals, plays, stances, hand shakes, songs and teachings. Infact I can probably teach you a few things save you waiting till your 80. you're just a low lvl politician or businessman lol. I'm going to just leave you're not charitable or welcoming at all. We've trained you well . You'll probably be a freemason your whole life and we still won't teach you anything. Good luck with that. You missed out. lol

Cya


Thanks to everyone who was nice to me and welcoming this is no way aimed towards you <3


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## Warrior1256 (May 4, 2017)

Cruce said:


> I'm going to just leave


Bye.


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## 88DAM88 (Aug 4, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> A blank book is specifically prohibited in some jurisdictions, as it cannot contain the revealed word of God.


That prohibition is SO silly and I hope enlightenment eventually moves those Brothers and Jurisdictions to abandon that unfounded dogma. . I find it strange that "word" is taken so conservatively when even the bible as SVL has so many multidimensional interpretations of "word."
The whole aversion to a blank book is a manifestation of ignorance and lack of imagination, not to mention a it seems a dogma mired in an undeveloped understanding of our science . .  . a dogma based in ignorance and not a far cry from fanaticism. The idea that a blank book cannot reveal the "word" of God, or that a blank book could not "be" the revealed word of GodJesus has said that even the very stones speak truth. Albert Pike has stated "The first Scriptures for the human race were written by God on the Earth and Heavens. The reading of _these_ Scriptures is Science. Familiarity with the grass and trees, the insects and the infusoria, teaches us deeper lessons of love and faith than we can glean from the writings of FENELO and AUGUSTINE. The great Bible of God is ever open before mankind."


----------



## 88DAM88 (Aug 4, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Wow. Thank you for that link Bro Glen.
> 
> "Firm belief" in the Divine Authenticity of the VSL... i did not know that. If we had that here, we'd have A LOT less Freemasons. If that had of been a requirement, I would not have been able to join.. or would have spent a long time Soul Searching... All other questions, including components of that one and even belief in the USA Const are okay but if you put the form in front of me right now, I would not be able to sign it. I'd cross that out and take my chances. Would the same be true for affiliation ? Looks like I can't be a Texan Freemason under that GL..


...And any dogma that is exclusive and sectarian as such has no place in the Brotherhood of Man.


----------



## 88DAM88 (Aug 4, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Yes, yes, and yes, as seen in the link.
> 
> Remember, we have GLs which are Christian, and until 1984, UGLE condoned excluding Latter-day Saints.


The great work and conversations like this bring us closer and reveal how we are similar and moves us to remove the egotism that creates divisions, discriminations and sectarianism that prevents "a more perfect union" of our Brotherhood.


----------



## Glen Cook (Aug 5, 2017)

88DAM88 said:


> That prohibition is SO silly and I hope enlightenment eventually moves those Brothers and Jurisdictions to abandon that unfounded dogma. . I find it strange that "word" is taken so conservatively when even the bible as SVL has so many multidimensional interpretations of "word."
> The whole aversion to a blank book is a manifestation of ignorance and lack of imagination, not to mention a it seems a dogma mired in an undeveloped understanding of our science . .  . a dogma based in ignorance and not a far cry from fanaticism. The idea that a blank book cannot reveal the "word" of God, or that a blank book could not "be" the revealed word of GodJesus has said that even the very stones speak truth. Albert Pike has stated "The first Scriptures for the human race were written by God on the Earth and Heavens. The reading of _these_ Scriptures is Science. Familiarity with the grass and trees, the insects and the infusoria, teaches us deeper lessons of love and faith than we can glean from the writings of FENELO and AUGUSTINE. The great Bible of God is ever open before mankind."


Oh, now you're just trying to make us feel good.

Describing others' position as silly, a manifestation of ignorance, or shallow, is not helpful if your goal is to persuade.  If you are just wanting to vent and bully, then you have succeeded in your goal.  Many rituals teach that a goal of the fraternity is harmony. Such pejoratives are unlikely to contribute to that goal. 

May I ask, what is your grand lodge, and what do you understand their position to be on the subject?


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 5, 2017)

Glen Cook said:


> Describing others' position as silly, a manifestation of ignorance, or shallow, is not helpful if your goal is to persuade. If you are just wanting to vent and bully, then you have succeeded in your goal. Many rituals teach that a goal of the fraternity is harmony. Such pejoratives are unlikely to contribute to that goal.


Agreed!


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## LeoValMer05 (Jan 28, 2018)

RhushidaK said:


> Are there any deists or irreligious, regular Freemasons here? If so, what do you have as VSL while swearing? And how do you see them as in general?
> 
> Note: Irreligious here would denote Freemasons who believe in a god, but do not follow any religion.



I would consider myself somewhat Deist, though I share a lot of Pantheist and Panentheist views as well. A Panendeist perhaps?


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