# Candidate unbecoming



## Radical540 (Jan 16, 2016)

Several months ago our lodge got a letter from an FC member's soon to be father in law. The letter depicted the true character of this brother; ,a lying, stealing, cheating (bastard). Inaddition, I personally had some unsavory dealings with this individual. ( shoddy business transactions).  After expressing my personal thoughts to a brother I (used to) truly respect, I was met with the response of: "...a brother's personal character and business outside the lodge, has no bearing on his Masonic worthiness...."    What!!?? Are you kidding me?  
Since then, I've had every intention on black balling this individual from further Masonic advancement, due to a multitude of reasons I truly feel are unbecoming a proper Mason; additionally, I cannot in good conscience, sit in the same lodge with this individual.
Any thoughts/insights?


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## Bloke (Jan 16, 2016)

Radical540 said:


> ..... I was met with the response of: "...a brother's personal character and business outside the lodge, has no bearing on his Masonic worthiness...."    What!!?? Are you kidding me?
> ........



Well, my view is while i am not my brothers keeper, I do have a duty to protect and promote the good name of the Craft.

It's complicated by the fact he is a freemason in name,  although he sounds like he's unworthy. I've been here several times before and in my experience guys like that dont stay. That said, I would be sharing your experiences with Sec  WM SW and IPM, just the facts and your concern, dont editorialise his behaviour too much.  It would also decline to participate in raising him, but not be communicating that to everyone, just those who plan the degrees.

Alternatively, i would be looking for clear grounds for a masonic charge.

I would also canvas a few opinions before doing anything...


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## Radical540 (Jan 16, 2016)

Since the "good ole boy" system seems to prevail most often, the status quo always prevails as well. No one wants to make waves. All the current officers know, but apparently don't care.
As I mentioned, I can't sit in lodge with a clear conscience with this individual; I'll be looking to transfer to a new lodge.


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## Radical540 (Jan 16, 2016)

JamestheJust said:


> In our local EA ritual the new brother is quite specifically told not to sit in lodge with a brother with whom he is at variance.  In your situation I would explain to the Secretary and Master that I will not attending lodge when that brother is present.
> 
> The rest is up to the lodge.


Ironically, our current (bleeding heart liberal) Secretary is the one I originally told and said what I listed in my original post. He wants to bring every indigent, ignorant, unworthy male into our exclusive fraternity! I thought freemasonry was supposed to be sort of like the Marines, "...a FEW good men..."  NOT every schmuck that raps on the door!?!?!!


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## Glen Cook (Jan 16, 2016)

Radical540 said:


> Ironically, our current (bleeding heart liberal) Secretary is the one I originally told and said what I listed in my original post. He wants to bring every indigent, ignorant, unworthy male into our exclusive fraternity! I thought freemasonry was supposed to be sort of like the Marines, "...a FEW good men..."  NOT every schmuck that raps on the door!?!?!!


Many of us have in our obligations or charges not to dislcose lodge business outside of the lodge. Consider whether this last bit of criticism falls within that.


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## Radical540 (Jan 16, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Many of us have in our obligations or charges not to dislcose lodge business outside of the lodge. Consider whether this last bit of criticism falls within that.


Can you please rephrase this reply in a more comprehensible fashion..?


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## Glen Cook (Jan 16, 2016)

Radical540 said:


> Can you please rephrase this reply in a more comprehensible fashion..?


Oookay.  You shouldn't post personal attacks on lodge brethren on a public forum.


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## Radical540 (Jan 16, 2016)

Who was i attacking? Did I mention anybody by personal name? Did I even mention the name if the lodge?
NO!! And I resent your implication.
  I posted a grievance looking for insight from others.


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## Radical540 (Jan 16, 2016)

And because I loathe any and all things "politically correct".....
Go Trump Go!!


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## chrmc (Jan 16, 2016)

It's funny how quickly a thread can change to show what the real problem might be...


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## Browncoat (Jan 16, 2016)

The glaring question in my mind is why didn't you black ball this guy when his application was presented before the lodge? He's been accepted, initiated, and passed...but *now* there's a problem?


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## Companion Joe (Jan 16, 2016)

I don't know about every jurisdiction, but here, we start every degree with "if there be no objections." If there is an objection - and the member doesn't even have to give a reason - you close the lodge and go home. The objection stands for 6 months. When the time has expired and the candidate comes back for the degree, object again. A man's advancement does not end at the ballot box.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 16, 2016)

Companion Joe said:


> I don't know about every jurisdiction, but here, we start every degree with "if there be no objections." If there is an objection - and the member doesn't even have to give a reason - you close the lodge and go home. The objection stands for 6 months. When the time has expired and the candidate comes back for the degree, object again. A man's advancement does not end at the ballot box.


It's allows an objection, though we allow a trial at the candidate's request


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## Randy81 (Jan 16, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> It's allows an objection, though we allow a trial at the candidate's request


Have you ever seen anything like that happen?


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## Glen Cook (Jan 17, 2016)

Randy81 said:


> Have you ever seen anything like that happen?


Yes, and the individual was denied advancement. Sometime later, he was caught trying to sneak into an accelerated degree day.  It appears the lodge made the correct decision.


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## Randy81 (Jan 17, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Yes, and the individual was denied advancement. Sometime later, he was caught trying to sneak into an accelerated degree day.  It appears the lodge made the correct decision.


That's just crazy! I assume that he must of done something serious for it to happen! 

The worst thing I've seen in my lodge in my limited time is a fellow EA who was initiated in April. He's a good kid but is lazy. I'm already going to get passed and he's still lingering. What's crazy is that there are so many brothers who are willing to help but he just won't put forth the effort.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 17, 2016)

Some GLs have time limits on advancement. Does LA?


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## Randy81 (Jan 17, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Some GLs have time limits on advancement. Does LA?


I'm still very new so don't quote me on this but I think we do and it's twelve months. Part of me feels that he's being disrespectful to the brothers who took a chance accepting him into their lodge. The other part of me wants to make sure he progresses.

I'm doing my proficiency Monday and feel very comfortable with it. It's a federal holiday so I've offered for him to study all day so he can do his proficiency as well. Hopefully he will come through and can progress as well. As I said, he's a good guy and has good character but is lacking motivation.


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## Radical540 (Jan 17, 2016)

Browncoat said:


> The glaring question in my mind is why didn't you black ball this guy when his application was presented before the lodge? He's been accepted, initiated, and passed...but *now* there's a problem?


Because the letter referenced in the original post, didn't show up until after he was already an FC.


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## Radical540 (Jan 17, 2016)

Companion Joe said:


> I don't know about every jurisdiction, but here, we start every degree with "if there be no objections." If there is an objection - and the member doesn't even have to give a reason - you close the lodge and go home. The objection stands for 6 months. When the time has expired and the candidate comes back for the degree, object again. A man's advancement does not end at the ballot box.


In MI, we don't have such verbiage.


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## Radical540 (Jan 17, 2016)

chrmc said:


> It's funny how quickly a thread can change to show what the real problem might be...


Do tell.....


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## Companion Joe (Jan 17, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> It's allows an objection, though we allow a trial at the candidate's request



I have never heard of us having any provision for a trial at a candidate's request. There might be one; I have just never heard of it. For us, as I said, one single objection is the equivalent to one single black cube. If I member says "I object" when the question is asked, then that's the end of it; you close the lodge and go home. I've honestly never seen that happen in open lodge. If you have an objection to a candidate's advancement, take care of it in private with the WM, and then he doesn't have to schedule the man's next degree conferral. To do it in open lodge, in my opinion, would simply be grandstanding.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 17, 2016)

Companion Joe said:


> I have never heard of us having any provision for a trial at a candidate's request. There might be one; I have just never heard of it. For us, as I said, one single objection is the equivalent to one single black cube. If I member says "I object" when the question is asked, then that's the end of it; you close the lodge and go home. I've honestly never seen that happen in open lodge. If you have an objection to a candidate's advancement, take care of it in private with the WM, and then he doesn't have to schedule the man's next degree conferral. To do it in open lodge, in my opinion, would simply be grandstanding.


I agree that for a candidate for advancement, that would be the better means of approaching it.


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## CLewey44 (Jan 17, 2016)

Radical540 said:


> Since the "good ole boy" system seems to prevail most often, the status quo always prevails as well. No one wants to make waves. All the current officers know, but apparently don't care.
> As I mentioned, I can't sit in lodge with a clear conscience with this individual; I'll be looking to transfer to a new lodge.



This is what I'd do if he gets voted proficient as a FC and then ultimately raised. Check into some T.O. lodges. They seem to have more strict entrance requirements.


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## flipster (Jan 17, 2016)

"Among whom no enmity should ever exist"  I would suggest you be careful to not sully your own good reputation with concern for the character flaws of the brother.   All seasoned brothers on this board have dealt with difficult brothers, or been the subject of concern by a difficult brother.   I would suggest patience.  And don't let the man's father-in-law issues become your issues.  You will be best served to be the best man you can be.  Good luck.


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## JJones (Jan 17, 2016)

Browncoat said:


> The glaring question in my mind is why didn't you black ball this guy when his application was presented before the lodge? He's been accepted, initiated, and passed...but *now* there's a problem?



Easier said than done in some jurisdictions. You have to have three black balls in Texas do be  denied.


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## Radical540 (Jan 19, 2016)

JJones said:


> Easier said than done in some jurisdictions. You have to have three black balls in Texas do be  denied.


In MI, one will do it.  

Unfortunately since the vote was snuck in on the sneak, I wasn't given a ballot.


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## MRichard (Jan 19, 2016)

Radical540 said:


> In MI, one will do it.
> 
> Unfortunately since the vote was snuck in on the sneak, I wasn't given a ballot.



How is this possible? We vote on candidates during open lodge here. If you are a member of the lodge, you must vote to the best of my knowledge. Unless you were not at that meeting.


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## Radical540 (Jan 19, 2016)

MRichard said:


> How is this possible? We vote on candidates during open lodge here. If you are a member of the lodge, you must vote to the best of my knowledge. Unless you were not at that meeting.


Exactly...I wasn't at the meeting. I just happened to go to Royal Arch that night, and missed the balloting (I almost think they did it on purpose)


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## Bloke (Jan 19, 2016)

Was the required notice given ? Here, members are invited to write to the Grand Sec in confidence to object.


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## Pscyclepath (Jan 19, 2016)

As Companion Joe said, at the beginning of each degree, the second phrase from the Master is "...if there are no objections..."  Any objection (you must be a member in good standing of that lodge) shuts the proceeding down, cold turkey.  That's good for at least one shot, the objection only stands month to month, and on the second shot you need to be ready to justify yourself to the Master.  In the same manner, if a candidate doesn't pass his proficiency and present himself for advancement within 6 mos. of his election or last degree, he must pass the ballot box again.  If rejected, he can reapply the following month, hopefully after having gotten himself straightened out.  And here (AR) EA's and Fellowcrafts are still subject to Masonic discipline for violations of their obligation, or of Grand Lodge law.   We are a 1-ball jurisdiction, so it only takes one to reject at any point along the way.


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## GKA (Jan 19, 2016)

We are experiencing the same thing at my home lodge, a certain brother transfered from another lodge and is now hell bent on showing us how we should do things, he has caused much tension and even has been caught in more than a few lies, he continues to stir up trouble among the brethren but he has a small following of like minded zelots 
So far three brothers have stopped attending, and when confronted with this fact he just says, " good riddance"
I have decided to leave myself because his activities are intolerable, The remaining brothers are afraid to confront him and the pressure from GL reps are no help because they are only interested in keeping the issue from ending up with charges filed.
It is a hopeless situation


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## Companion Joe (Jan 20, 2016)

GKA,
I would find a way to remedy that situation in a heartbeat, either through Masonic protocol or a more frank discussion out behind the woodshed. I don't know if there is anything in this world that infuriates me more than someone riding in and telling me how great it was where they were previously. I'm all for new ideas and approaches to things, but this guy sounds like he making demands instead of offering suggestions ... especially if you say some new guy is running off people who have been there long before him. We recently had a situation where I was on a Masonic committee with a guy who had been a MM for about 6 months. I had done this dozens of times, and it was his first. He piped up with a "you're not doing it right." I guess he saw mushroom clouds in my eyes because he quickly decided it was time to be quiet and listen. Don't come to my lodge, my work, my town, my state, or my country and tell me where you left was better; I will tell that person that I'm positive the road that got them here has a lane going back the other direction. (end of rant )


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## Browncoat (Jan 20, 2016)

Companion Joe said:


> Don't come to my lodge, my work, my town, my state, or my country and tell me where you left was better; I will tell that person that I'm positive the road that got them here has a lane going back the other direction. (end of rant )


This has all the earmarks of the "we've always done it this way" mentality written all over it.

No one likes a know-it-all, be it the veteran or the newbie. But maybe, _just maybe_, there's a chance that there is a new/better/different way of doing things and it's worth hearing the guy out. I mean, if you've been beating your head against a wall for 10 years and someone comes along and offers you a helmet, you might want to stop banging and listen. Just some food for thought.


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## Companion Joe (Jan 20, 2016)

I don't have a problem with that earmark in some instances. There is a huge difference between offering suggestions and saying "good riddance" the way GKA described. Suggestions are good. Demands are bad.

As for the end of my post, Masonry has nothing to do with it. Don't ask to be invited to a party then tell the host that your cousin's party is better.


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## dfreybur (Jan 20, 2016)

Pscyclepath said:


> As Companion Joe said, at the beginning of each degree, the second phrase from the Master is "...if there are no objections..."



Only 1 of my 3 jurisdictions says that in the degrees.  Still, if you have an objection to a candidate, say so to the WM in private.  If they ignore you, put it in writing to the WM and the GM including reference to your having been ignored the first time.


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## JJones (Jan 20, 2016)

I've always been told that a MM can enter a protest on an EA or FC with the WM and halt his progression for a time here in Texas.  It's probably nothing though, I've never seen it in the law book to my recollection.


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## Warrior1256 (Jan 20, 2016)

Companion Joe said:


> Don't come to my lodge, my work, my town, my state, or my country and tell me where you left was better; I will tell that person that I'm positive the road that got them here has a lane going back the other direction. (end of rant )


Agreed, I don't like demands either.


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## Bill Lins (Jan 20, 2016)

JJones said:


> I've always been told that a MM can enter a protest on an EA or FC with the WM and halt his progression for a time here in Texas.  It's probably nothing though, I've never seen it in the law book to my recollection.


Check Articles 421-429.


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## Radical540 (Feb 5, 2016)

All great suggestions that might halt the aforementioned "unbecoming's" progress.  However, frankly I'm done.  
     As I originally mentioned he was the straw the broke the camel's back. There has been too much schnanigans going on at this lodge, and the "_good ole' boy_" system has annoyed me enough. Plus, there's not joy anymore- it's more like "*Garden Club for Men*".  Nothing new being learned; and simply put its become a stress in my life and is bloody boring!  
     I'm in the process of transferring to another blue lodge and will likely dive into RAM or SR a little more.


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## acjohnson53 (Feb 5, 2016)

That's why we vote on petitions in order to weed out them bad seeds...that's why they have those investigation committees to weed out them bad seeds...Might turn out to be a good Brother...But I'd watch him...


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## Bloke (Feb 6, 2016)

The best of luck and good wishes Radical540


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 7, 2016)

Bloke said:


> The best of luck and good wishes Radical540


Same here.


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## MRichard (Feb 14, 2016)

DeusLuxVitam said:


> Hey man if you give him a good sucker punch "Outside the lodge" would it be warranted?
> 
> brothers fight in real life. im talking about blood brothers.. when your brother does some stupid stuff, you give him a swift ass kicking..
> 
> ...



This is not something that we would joke about. Maybe you should reconsider giving advice about freemasonry when you are not a freemason. This fraternity is not for everyone.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 14, 2016)

MRichard said:


> This is not something that we would joke about. Maybe you should reconsider giving advice about freemasonry when you are not a freemason. This fraternity is not for everyone.


Very true! It's obvious that this guy just wants attention and to get a rise out of everyone. I simply don't pay any attention to his posts.


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## MRichard (Feb 14, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> Very true! It's obvious that this guy just wants attention and to get a rise out of everyone. I simply don't pay any attention to his posts.



You just reminded me of an useful feature of this site. The good ole ignore button.


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## flipster (Feb 14, 2016)

Dues lucks is not a Mason?  Thanks for the insight.


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## Warrior1256 (Feb 15, 2016)

flipster said:


> Dues lucks is not a Mason?  Thanks for the insight.


Nope, he's not.


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