# Are black people allowed?



## KO2134

I'm sorry i have to even ask this question but in my town we are privileged enough to have a mainstream and pha lodge and i have noticed that the af&am lodge has absolutely no black people at all and the pha lodge is all black i personally am deciding which one i want to join because i turn 18 on feb.14 i am leaning towards the mainstream lodge because i already know some of the members and am accepted by them as being different from the average 18 year old but i am considering the pha lodge simply due to the strong history of pha masonry which the mainstream also has. Please don't be an idiotic jerk when answering this question i am simply curious.


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## chrmc

Yes, black people, or any other race for that matter, is most certainly allowed in all lodges. Both "mainstream" and PHA. The good think about masonry is that it looks at the internal qualities of a man, not the external ones. 

That being said (and without turning this into a debate) I do think that masonry as many others things, could do with a bit more diversity. But it's thankfully coming.


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## tomasball

There is no rule about the race of the petitioner, but the members of the lodge vote on each petition.  All it takes is three men voting their prejudices to keep a good man out.  It isn't a perfect system.


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## Blake Bowden

I suggest visiting both Lodges and go with the one you feel more comfortable with. Can't go wrong with either one.


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## Bro.BruceBenjamin

When considering which to join it is important to remember that they are looking at the man not the ethnic make-up of the man.


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## KO2134

why aren't there more blacks in mainstream lodges


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## widows son

Both have their own traditions that go back to the early days of America, which has been preserved down to today. Great responses too by the brethren.


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## crono782

I would conjecture that because such an organization existed with its own rich history, roots, and traditions, the majority of african americans gravitated to it and not to mainstream lodges.


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## KO2134

Do y'all think that its wrong for me to want to join the mainstream lodge (sulphur springs lodge #221) over the prince hall lodge (Columbia lodge #81) simply because the mainstream lodge is more active in charity and the community and if any of you guys have been to on of these lodges please share your experience


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

KO2134 said:


> why aren't there more blacks in mainstream lodges



Slowly but certainly the invisible walls are coming down. All races and cultures are breaking down barriers, both directions. Yes, I can say for a fact that I personally know of several of my Brothers in the "main stream" are black, but I don't see color. I only see Brothers.



KO2134 said:


> Do y'all think that its wrong for me to want to join the mainstream lodge (sulphur springs lodge #221) over the prince hall lodge (Columbia lodge #81) simply because the mainstream lodge is more active in charity and the community and if any of you guys have been to on of these lodges please share your experience



I have been to neither. My best suggestion is to try and get to know the members of both. Leave your options open (don't commit), then jump into the group that best suits you personally. Both types of masonry are rich in culture, and unique in their own way though no one more perfect than the other. Enjoy, and Good Luck!


Stewart


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## KO2134

Let's be real how likely is it for a young black man to get into an all white lodge


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## tomasball

I imagine (if he's a good man) he'd get into mine.


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## Bill Lins

KO2134 said:


> Let's be real how likely is it for a young black man to get into an all white lodge



It was no problem in ours.


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## KO2134

I'm sorry if i am asking to many questions i'm just nervous even though i still have like 20 some odd days but i live in a very small town in east texas and i am not from here and i'm not well known and my family doesn't own some lavish business or anything as a matter of fact i can afford to pay the dues and everything i need. I'm really am scared that some individuals in society are still stuck in old time thinking and then i come on here and read and you guys do nothing but confirm it. My reassurance is the fact that I know many people consider me a good man and I am very good at convincing people know matter how stubborn they are. I will keep y'all posted on what happens thanks for y'all help and 1. More question What day do most lodges meet and do any meet on Valentines Day (My birthday)


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## Brent Heilman

I wish it were a perfect world and this type of behavior from some people was nonexistent, but this isn't a perfect world and it does exist. What we can do is call those people out and show others that there should be no contention between anyone, whether PHA or "mainstream". We are all Brothers and should act as such. Do not let the fact that there a few out there that hold to the 1950's way of thinking regarding race deter you from visiting both a PHA and "mainstream" lodge. You will find that most will not judge you based on skin color but will make their judgments based on who you are as a person. 

To find out what days the lodges meet on you can call the lodge directly or use the lodge locator function on the respective Grand Lodge websites. You will find that lodges will all meet on different days. My Lodge meets on the 2nd and 4th Tuesdays and the Lodge just south of us meets on the 1st and 3rd Thursday. Each will have their own schedule. Good luck on you journey and I look forward to hearing the tales of your travels.


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## widows son

I'm sorry I'm not sure what you mean when you say people in society are stuck in old ways of thinking, and we confirm it on here. Are you saying that there are people on this forum who are prejudice? Just asking because there are numerous PHA brothers on here and I don't think that seems to be the case. By all means correct me if I'm wrong.


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## crono782

I thought that as well when I read that post. I don't presume to know what you're thinking KO2134, but I'm thinking he's saying we confirm as in we have all said, "yeah society is unfortunately, prejudiced in areas still". I would hope we don't come off as prejudicial..


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## CajunTinMan

A Brother is a Brother.


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## CajunTinMan

widows son said:


> I'm sorry I'm not sure what you mean when you say people in society are stuck in old ways of thinking, and we confirm it on here. Are you saying that there are people on this forum who are prejudice? Just asking because there are numerous PHA brothers on here and I don't think that seems to be the case. By all means correct me if I'm wrong.


I think he meant in Masonry as a whole. And unfortunately they do still exist. It would be unfair to the young man to convince him that he would not face challenges at some mainstream lodges. I pray that he would have the fortitude to face these challenges so that we can continue to chip away at the old prejudices. But at the same time I could ask no man to do something without knowing what he could be facing. I pray the best for him. Either way is the right path.


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## KO2134

Thank you guys for your responses and to respond to the statements if i insinuated in any way that the gentlemen on here were racist or left any room for error let me clear this up. What I meant by my statement was that on this site there is a lot of conversation about the 9 states who don't recognize Prince Hall masonry and the disagreements some have on the way the 2 grand lodges in this state decided to recognize each other with inter-visitation. I also meant that some individuals on this site come and vent about their lodge about how the lodge isn't open to change. By no stretch are any of the gentlemen i have encountered on this site racist if anything the gentlemen on this site have been the pinnacle of hospitality no matter how many question us non-masons ask and no matter how dumb and to that I salute you


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## chrmc

KO2134 said:


> Do y'all think that its wrong for me to want to join the mainstream lodge (sulphur springs lodge #221) over the prince hall lodge (Columbia lodge #81) simply because the mainstream lodge is more active in charity and the community and if any of you guys have been to on of these lodges please share your experience



Absolutely not. Find a lodge that fits you and what you are looking for, and so be it. Whether it is PHA or mainstream should not matter.


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## CajunTinMan

You came to the right place and are asking the right questions. I have noticed that the Brothers here will answer honestly which is not always easy. Don't be afraid to ask questions here. These are good people.


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## widows son

Bro. Cajun is right. And unfortunately there are people in freemasonry, who still maintain the old way of thought. But as far as this forum goes, you'll get honest answers from honest men as bro Cajun said. We sometimes vent our frustrations out on here about our lodges or about other things because we want to see the best out of freemasonry. As masons it's our duty to see that our order is preserved and that we each get as much knowledge and experience as we can out of its deep roots and traditions.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

KO2134 said:


> Let's be real how likely is it for a young black man to get into an all white lodge



As I previously posted, I have seen it with my Own Eyes! It is real, and it is happening.


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## CajunTinMan

Bro. Stewart said:


> As I previously posted, I have seen it with my Own Eyes! It is real, and it is happening.


And it needs to happen more.


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## Ashlar76

KO2134 said:


> Let's be real how likely is it for a young black man to get into an all white lodge



I believe it is very likely. I would say, g[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]et to know the Brethren at both lodges and see where you feel you will fit, I believe you can't go wrong choosing either path. I can tell you from my own experience, I am a Hispanic man and a Prince Hall Master Mason and I was welcomed with open arms in my lodge, it's been a joyous ride. D[/FONT]on't judge a book by its cover, instead open it and see what's inside.


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## Traveling Man

You must remember that you're shopping for the lodge that makes you feel comfortable as well. If you don't feel at ease, try elsewhere... It's your journey, not anyone else's.


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## Frater Cliff Porter

Everywhere in the Masonic world outside of the Southern part of the United States and a couple of states in the mid-west, race is not an issue.  This is a remnant of America's past and will someday dissipate.  Until then don't shop a lodge for race, shop a lodge for good men whom you want to emulate and where you will fill comfortable with.


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## Brent Heilman

As has been stated by others this is a journey about _*you*_ and your journey not anyone else. It is your decision to make where you will feel most comfortable. The more comfortable you are with the Lodge and the Brothers that make up the membership the more likely you will be to active and involved. I am sure no matter the path you choose it will not be a bad choice. As you get to know people in the lodge and they get to know you I am sure you will have no problems and the last thing on anyone's mind (at least it should be) will be skin color. Who knows you may be the catalyst that brings more good men into the Fraternity just because of this step. Good luck and never hesitate to ask any question on here. We are all here to help.


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## KO2134

Thank y'all for all y'alls answers i was wondering what questions should i ask when i go to the lodge to decide


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## Virgin Islands Brother

My curious, hopefully soon to be brother. I had the same concern once upon a time. There is a book called "Recognizing Prince Hall".  It was written from the point of view of a Caucasian Brother.  It is awesome!  He is honest forthright and a downright beautiful Brother.  His fight to get his mainstream lodge to tear down the invisible barriers give real hope that we may all sit in the same lodge one day. My lodge is mainstream- but I'm in the Virgin Islands. Although not PHA, we are predominantly black. However, I sit in a lodge of Black men, White men, people of Arab, East Indian and Asian descent. It's beautiful and really educational from a cultural aspect. 

I once met an elderly brother who gave me a profound statement.  If my church were like my lodge, I probably would have never become a mason.  Do your best to keep this lodge diverse because this world consists of a diverse amount of people that we must interact with. To so effectively, we must tolerate all.

Good Luck!


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## Dow Mathis

KO2134 said:


> Thank y'all for all y'alls answers i was wondering what questions should i ask when i go to the lodge to decide



I congratulate you in your interest in the Craft, and in coming here to have some of your questions answered.  In response, I'm going to throw out some thoughts that won't be in any order and may or may not help you.  All of us come from different places, both in our lives and in our communities.  As such, all of our roads are a little different.  Yours will be different as well.  Okay, here goes.



On the race question... My thoughts here are that we tend to find in life what we look for.  If I expect to be treated well, then I usually seem to be treated well.  If I expect trouble, then I usually find it. By that token, if you go into a lodge expecting for there to be a big deal made about your skin color, then folks may pick up on that, either consciously or unconsciously, and you may see a big deal made of it.  However, if you go in expecting to be treated as a man, not a black man, or a white man, or an orange-with-pink-polka-dots man, then I would expect that you will be treated as a man, plain and simple.  There is a recording by Brother Earl Nightingale called "*The Strangest Secret*."  One of the primary points he makes is that "we become what we think about."  Keep that in mind, and you shouldn't have any problems regardless of which lodge you choose. 
Don't get in a big hurry to ask questions of the lodges you visit.  Take the time to get to know the brothers there, and to let them get to know you.  If it's a fit, then you'll sense that.  If it's not, then you'll sense that too. 
Be prepared to visit the lodge several times.  Many lodges have a meal before their stated meetings, and those meals are open to non masons as well as masons.  Here is where you'll start to get to know the men in the lodge. 
Don't expect them to roll out the red carpet and invite you in with open arms.  You must take the initiative.  We don't invite.  We don't recruit.  You must seek us. 
Think long and hard about this question:  "Why do you want to become a Mason?"  If you do decide to petition a lodge, then you'll be asked that question.  It's much easier to answer a question like this if you've thought it through first.  For some, it was because Daddy was a Mason, for others, it was because someone else that they respected was one.  For still others, the answer is different. 
Be open and honest.  These men are evaluating you as you are evaluating them.  If you are sincere, honest, respectful, and forthright, then they'll recognize and respect that.  If you are overbearing, arrogant, loud-mouthed, opinionated, etc., then they'll definitely not respect that. 
The last thing that I can think of right now is this:  Be yourself.  Be the best you that you can be.  Remember, Masonry seeks to make good men better. 

Good luck to you, Sir.  I'm sure you'll be fine, whichever road you take.


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## robhanna

Masonry regards no man for their worldly wealth or honors, and it is the internal and not the external that recommends a man be made a Mason.

Race has nothing to do with being a Mason.


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## widows son

Which is why we meet on the level.


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## Benjamin Baxter

I dont feel either lodge I attend would have any issue. It is the internal, not the external.


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## Scorpionlawz

Interestingly enough I am the only one of my color in my Lodge and there has always without fail been the utmost disregard for my skin color, and the utmost regard for me as a man. 
Should be that way everywhere, anything else is against the principles we hold so dear. 


Bro. Junior A. Knight 
Chicopee Lodge
GL Massachusetts


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## ni3f

Masons have always been a step or two ahead of the general society -- which is not to say that there haven't been prejudices and discrimination. Freemasonry has been ahead of the curve but hasn't utterly transcended the values of the culture in which it exists.  Of course there has been bigotry and on occasion there are reports of this sort of thing happening from time to time. But rest assured that the vast majority of brothers regard discrimination as reprehensible and unmasonic, not to mention stupid.

Are you a good man? That is all that matters. 




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## Bro. Vincent

I am an EA about to get my FC degree this Thursday. I am prince hall for life, but I do find this question interesting  from the OP. I have an interesting view of my history, the history of freemasonry  and the history of man.

But I haven't travelled far enough yet to express it.  After Becoming a MM maybe i will be at a point to discuss ...I'm interested in asking my WM the same question. But I want to get to a point where I can challenge my mainstream brothers on history as well as the craft and the dialogue be honest and rooted on love and respect of one another... Good question brother.


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## ni3f

The very fact that there is PH at all is because of racism. Black people weren't welcome in the mainstream. This is akin to the existence of African American churches; most mainstream churches today would be thrilled to have black members, but African Americans have developed their own religious culture, unique styles of worship: music, "call and response" preaching, social activism etc. The differences need to be respected and celebrated. 

I belong to the Washington,DC Scottish Rite. A high percentage if our membership and leadership are black BUT they are overwhelmingly either African immigrants or Afro Caribbean and NOT African Americans, who tend to join the PH SR. So while we are demonstrably not racist--emphatically so--the division between the mainstream and the SR is most certainly the legacy of racism. 

It can't be racism if the black members we have, in all likelihood, have the very same tribal origins in Africa as the African Americans who prefer PH.  The issue isn't race or pedigree--it is social and historical. 

We would be glad to have the PH masons join us or merge with us -- if they wanted. The question remains: would this contribute to the eventual loss of the PH's own unique traditions? Does PH want to risk assimilation? I haven't check the numbers, but there would also be some possibility that the so called "mainstream" might assimilate into the culture of PH, which would then become the "mainstream." 


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## Michael Neumann

ni3f said:


> The very fact that there is PH at all is because of racism. Black people weren't welcome in the mainstream. This is akin to the existence of African American churches; most mainstream churches today would be thrilled to have black members, but African Americans have developed their own religious culture, unique styles of worship: music, "call and response" preaching, social activism etc. The differences need to be respected and celebrated.
> 
> I belong to the Washington,DC Scottish Rite. A high percentage if our membership and leadership are black BUT they are overwhelmingly either African immigrants or Afro Caribbean and NOT African Americans, who tend to join the PH SR. So while we are demonstrably not racist--emphatically so--the division between the mainstream and the SR is most certainly the legacy of racism.
> 
> It can't be racism if the black members we have, in all likelihood, have the very same tribal origins in Africa as the African Americans who prefer PH.  The issue isn't race or pedigree--it is social and historical.
> 
> We would be glad to have the PH masons join us or merge with us -- if they wanted. The question remains: would this contribute to the eventual loss of the PH's own unique traditions? Does PH want to risk assimilation? I haven't check the numbers, but there would also be some possibility that the so called "mainstream" might assimilate into the culture of PH, which would then become the "mainstream."
> 
> 
> Freemason Connect Mobile



Very good post here and something I have noticed myself in trying to break down the barriers between Mainstream and PHA.


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## AdQuadratum

It is my opinion that in this day and age of social and racial equity that although we must and need to recognize the accomplishment of Most worshipful Bro. P.H and his determination to establish equality within masonry, it is my belief that there is no need anymore for the PHA as the Prince Hall Masons are Bro.s recognized by the UGLE. Meet on the Level /G\


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## Michael Hatley

One of the men in my lodge was a liberal Frenchman with an accent so strong some folks can't understand him (though I always tell him he has no accent haha, what can I say, I love him).  And we have had a Muslim man of color twice serve as Master in the last decade.

I have a good friend who is about to become a 2nd Lt in the Air Force who happens to be African American.  I'd be overjoyed if he asked me for a petition, and I've several times told him that if he ever has any questions about Masonry to please call on me.  If I could recruit I'd drag him to lodge forcibly, he's a really honorable young man I already think of as a brother.

I think it is mostly gravity that is keeping up the "divide".  When a man of color sees a crowd of mostly Anglo-Saxon types and another crowd made up of mostly men of color, the first is intimidating and the latter is where gravity takes them.  I don't know how to work against that, and I have no wish to try and hurt PH membership by actively working to recruit potential PH Masons.  

But I will say that I and every man my age I know who is a Mason stand ready to be a good a trusty friend and Brother to any good man.  And they don't have to feel as if they have to leave their race and heritage at the door, either.  I accept them as they are completely - the entire package, gladly.


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## dfreybur

One of the advantages of being a California and Illinois Mason living in Texas and not yet a Texas Mason is I get to visit at recognized lodges and both of the Texas jurisdictions are recognized.  So I've gone to visit lodges in both Texas jurisdictions.  I'm in no hurry to affiliate at the moment partially because of what happens to my ability to visit across jurisdictions once I do affiliate.

Meetings I've been to in both Texas jurisdictions have been integrated and that says something important about Masons and our principles.  We live by our principles.  The reason the two branches exist is historical.  Generations ago the reason for the separation was race.  Now the reason is deep cultural roots, long established traditions and valuing those roots and traditions.  Other than at the Nascar track that race stuff is fading history for our elderly members, something to be remembered and not tolerated by our middle aged members, something that's never been a part of their lives by our younger members.


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## ni3f

The parallel to the two paths of Freemasonry, "mainstream" and PHL might be compared to the existence of African American churches. The original division was doubtlessly because of segregation. Today, most "mainstream" denominations will welcome African American members -- but Black churches still thrive because they have their own unique traditions. This isn't racism although it is part of the legacy of the racist past. Were I the king of the Freemasons, would I merge the two strands? Yes and no. Integrating is good but assimilation? Loss of cultural identity? How can that be good? Perhaps integration of formerly PH lodges into to mainstream GL -- respecting the unique traditions of the PH lodges. This is much like our current practice of various historically "ethnic" lodges: Polish, French, German, Turkish, Jewish, Italian etc. we could do the same with PH lodges and have dispensation so they could preserve variations of liturgy and style. Full integration at the GL level and autonomy on the local level. 


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