# Love It or Hate It...passed



## Blake Bowden

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091108/D9BR59EO0.html


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## Bill Lins

"Obama had said the day's vote "is going to define the difference between the Republican and Democratic parties for decades.""

He's exactly correct.


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## HKTidwell

It has passed the House, it still has the senate to go.  Also once this is signed into law you will have the court battles.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

Some times its best for one to keep his "true" feelings and emotions in private when it comes to dealing with these kinds of subjects. I will offer one and only one statement.

Its Wrong.


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## TCShelton

Ron Paul 2012.


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## owls84

I do not like this at all. I mean 39 Democrats voted against it. They were talking about it last night and said "By the time the Senate is done with it it will look nothing like the one that the house passed." Then I think, how in the hell can that be. The same bill should have to pass house and senate is that not how checks and balances work? I hate the way our politicians have turned the best government in the world into such an ineffective piece of crap that is currently is. Not for the people but the politicians pocketbook. I can't wait till they go before God and have to explain this one.


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## TCShelton

I can't wait to hear all of the old guys go nuts over this tomorrow night.


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## Sirius

owls84 said:


> I do not like this at all. I mean 39 Democrats voted against it. They were talking about it last night and said "By the time the Senate is done with it it will look nothing like the one that the house passed." Then I think, how in the hell can that be. The same bill should have to pass house and senate is that not how checks and balances work? I hate the way our politicians have turned the best government in the world into such an ineffective piece of crap that is currently is. Not for the people but the politicians pocketbook. I can't wait till they go before God and have to explain this one.



You actually want it to be hard and complicated for a bill to become a law. The house passes a bill , the senate amends the bill , and both chambers appoint a conference committee. then both cahmbers agree to one bill. 

I think everyone is way to hung up on the public option. It's one of the smaller aspects of the bill. Competition is encouraged by this bill. What could be more capitalist? 

What is it that there going to have to explain to God? That seems a bit over the top. I mean it's health care legislation, not a bill to kill all the puppies and kittens in the land.


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## TCShelton

Our health care system is broken.  We gotta try something.


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## owls84

Sirius said:


> You actually want it to be hard and complicated for a bill to become a law. The house passes a bill , the senate amends the bill , and both chambers appoint a conference committee. then both cahmbers agree to one bill.
> 
> I think everyone is way to hung up on the public option. It's one of the smaller aspects of the bill. Competition is encouraged by this bill. What could be more capitalist?
> 
> What is it that there going to have to explain to God? That seems a bit over the top. I mean it's health care legislation, not a bill to kill all the puppies and kittens in the land.



After reading this, I am convinced there is absolutely nothing wrong with politicians and how they (or their parties) receive kick-backs by lobbyist. That this is a bill that was pushed by private companies that will become very wealthy. Nope. I totally think that the system as we know it is completely for the people by the people.


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## TCShelton

But Josh, more importantly, is God happy now? lol


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

owls84 said:


> After reading this, I am convinced there is absolutely nothing wrong with politicians and how they (or their parties) receive kick-backs by lobbyist. That this is a bill that was pushed by private companies that will become very wealthy. Nope. I totally think that the system as we know it is completely for the people by the people.



LMAO!! I agree totally! By the People & for the People... The rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting further in debt with no way out.


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## Bro. Stewart P.M.

TCShelton said:


> But Josh, more importantly, is God happy now? lol



Well IMO, No.

Even I am embarassed by the current situation.


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## HKTidwell

blake said:


> http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091108/D9BR59EO0.html



I've come to the determination that you like stirring the pot and the bigger the pot the more spoons you get out and rig to automatically stir!:biggrin:

I try to limit the amount of political comments I make here.  My comments tend to be very blunt on politics and not the reason I am here.  Thus why my above comments I held to fact and not my opinion.  No I do not always do this, sometimes I go ahead and spit out what I'm thinking.


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## Nate Riley

Its going to be interesting to see what happens in the next two elections.


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## HKTidwell

Nate Riley said:


> Its going to be interesting to see what happens in the next two elections.



I can not wait.  Looks like I'll be helping in the Ft. Hood - Waco area.  For the most part Texas overwhelmingly was against this bill.  Only Six of Thirty-two representatives from Texas voted for it.


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## JTM

end the fed and this will fall as well.


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## Bill Lins

Sirius said:


> I think everyone is way to hung up on the public option. It's one of the smaller aspects of the bill. Competition is encouraged by this bill. What could be more capitalist?



The problem is that the government does not & will not compete with private enterprise on an equal footing. Sooner or later the private interests will be driven from the field & all we will be left with is the government's "solution".

Yes, there are problems & abuses in our current system, but I believe we would be better served to correct those problems & abuses rather than to reinvent the entire system.


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## Bill Lins

HKTidwell said:


> I can not wait.  Looks like I'll be helping in the Ft. Hood - Waco area.  For the most part Texas overwhelmingly was against this bill.  Only Six of Thirty-two representatives from Texas voted for it.



Yup- even Chet Edwards smelled the coffee.


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## Bill Lins

HKTidwell said:


> I try to limit the amount of political comments I make here.  My comments tend to be very blunt on politics and not the reason I am here.  Thus why my above comments I held to fact and not my opinion.  No I do not always do this, sometimes I go ahead and spit out what I'm thinking.



Well, at least you're not a Puss-Boy like rhit! :21:


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## Bill Lins

Bro. Stewart said:


> Its Wrong.



So Mote It Be.


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## Sirius

owls84 said:


> After reading this, I am convinced there is absolutely nothing wrong with politicians and how they (or their parties) receive kick-backs by lobbyist. That this is a bill that was pushed by private companies that will become very wealthy. Nope. I totally think that the system as we know it is completely for the people by the people.



Now that's a completely different subject than the one you raised smart ass. Your original post was about the senate and house passing different bills.  I don't like the $ in politics any more than you do.


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## Bill Lins

Sirius said:


> Now that's a completely different subject than the one you raised smart ass.



Play nice, ladies!  :10:


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## Blake Bowden

This plan will not spur competition. Health insurance companies cannot compete with a provider aka the Government who isn't required to turn a profit. On the flip side, those same companies are the ones who profit from denying treatment. I find it ironic that the Republicans in DC are on their soapbox now.  It's not about giving two craps about YOU, it's about screwing the Democrats in 2010 by blocking this plan. They had years to pass something, they didn't. Why all of a sudden do they have all these wonderful new ideas to counteract the Obama plan? Why didn't they implement them when they had control. I'll tell ya why...$$$. Ah...tort reform...gotta love that suggestion. We passed that in Texas and while I can't speak for everyone, my premiums haven't gone down as promised. I'll sum it up for you Brothers, you're screwed either way. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's not about us, but control, power and money. The hard part is figuring out the lesser of two evils.


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## owls84

Sirius said:


> Now that's a completely different subject than the one you raised smart ass. Your original post was about the senate and house passing different bills.  I don't like the $ in politics any more than you do.





> I hate the way our politicians have turned the best government in the world into such an ineffective piece of crap that is currently is. Not for the people but the politicians pocketbook



That is my quote Brother that is precisely what I was talking about "their pocketbooks". You decided to quote me and say "I was a bit over the top" you were correct that it is not "Killing puppies," itâ€™s just yours and my life. Not to mention a ton of children. I am for health care reform I am but this is not the bill. It won't work this will do nothing but take money from the rich and give to the poor. If you want to see the middle class go away just keep voting the people in that are there. 

The third sentence dealt with how a bill that passes the house is different. You of all people cannot be ok with this? The bill that our two chambers pass is so different than the other that they have a "compromise" party to decide who gets what. Now who decides this "committee"? Not you or I so how could this be the system that was set in place to handle checks and balances. As far as if it is done the "right" way and a bill will be so hard to pass through without changing and adapting to where EVERY congressperson gets a cut or a piece of pork. Then you know what, I don't know that we need the laws that are being passed then. 

As far as a solution, I recommend that each and every person contact their congressman/woman. Let them know how you feel. Keep contacting and for Godâ€™s sake vote. The one thing that I really don't like is the guy that don't vote then wants to debate about the poor job their reps are doing.


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## Sirius

owls84 said:


> That is my quote Brother that is precisely what I was talking about \"their pocketbooks\". You decided to quote me and say \"I was a bit over the top\" you were correct that it is not \"Killing puppies,\" itâ€™s just yours and my life. Not to mention a ton of children. I am for health care reform I am but this is not the bill. It won't work this will do nothing but take money from the rich and give to the poor. If you want to see the middle class go away just keep voting the people in that are there.



You'll get no argument from me that there is to much money in politics. Your employer alone gave over 10 million dollars last year. But killing children? how does a health care bill kill children? That is obnoxious hyperbole. 




> The third sentence dealt with how a bill that passes the house is different. You of all people cannot be ok with this? The bill that our two chambers pass is so different than the other that they have a \"compromise\" party to decide who gets what. Now who decides this \"committee\"? Not you or I so how could this be the system that was set in place to handle checks and balances. As far as if it is done the \"right\" way and a bill will be so hard to pass through without changing and adapting to where EVERY congressperson gets a cut or a piece of pork. Then you know what, I don't know that we need the laws that are being passed then.



This is how a bill becomes a law and always has, when the two chambers pass a the same bill but in a different form a joint conference committee is appointed from both chambers to decide on the compromise. This is nothing new. The people are represented, they elected every member. Checks and balances refers to the oversight of the three branches on each other. 

We don't have direct democracy, that is mob rule. The mob is easy to get stirred up. They get told death panels are coming to kill grandma and force your daughters to have abortions. You see, if there was a real argument to be made, you and everyone else could sight the section of the bill that is so wrong. And don't say the bill is to big. If it has flaw, name it! tile and section. lets hear it.

This is what the R's have been saying all summer, all rhetoric and no substance. If you were really angry you would know exactly where you're mad about in this bill. You have a couple of generalizations. 

[video=youtube;mEJL2Uuv-oQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ[/video]


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## owls84

My anger is where in the hell is this money going to come from? It has to come from somewhere? Do you think the gov is going to foot the bill and go deeper in debt? No. It is going to come from companies and business owners. It is going to come from the rich in this country. Who is going to benefit from this plan? Look at Medicaid and Medicare. They are two entirely screwed up systems so how is this one going to be different. You want to see the higher middle class tax brackets go away then support it. They will be the ones hit the hardest with the highest tax increases due to this. Guess who will fall in this group next year....ME. My taxes will increase substantially. Why, because I have a good job and my GF soon to be wife went to school and has a good paying job so we will see a huge tax increase. Is that right? Especially when it is only getting passed because Politicians have something personally to gain. That is my point. Healthcare Reform has been in congress since the 50's and never passed, why now? Because healthcare companies this last year has fed more money into campaign funds and lobbying than any other year. Now why?

I know how a bill becomes a law by the way thanks for the lesson though. One thing the cartoon failed to show was the money and kickbacks the politicans that have our best intrest at heart get. Oh not to mention they awesome healthcare they get. Hey how about this lets put them on the plan and see if it passes.


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## Sirius

owls84 said:


> My taxes will increase substantially.
> 
> I know how a bill becomes a law by the way thanks for the lesson though. One thing the cartoon failed to show was the money and kickbacks the politicans that have our best intrest at heart get. Oh not to mention they awesome healthcare they get. Hey how about this lets put them on the plan and see if it passes.



Josh, thats more like it!That is an argument I can live with. "I don't want to pay higher taxes".  OK. 

I would ask you this, how would you get the money out of politics?


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## TCShelton

Sirius said:


> But killing children? how does a health care bill kill children? That is obnoxious hyperbole.



Where did you read that?  He didn't say anything about killing children.


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## Sirius

TCShelton said:


> Where did you read that?  He didn't say anything about killing children.





> Josh :
> You decided to quote me and say "I was a bit over the top" you were correct that it is not "Killing puppies," itâ€™s just yours and my life. Not to mention a ton of children.



Did I misread?


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## JTM

obama kills babies.  it's a fact.

edit: sorry, can't help but troll.  this is why politics aren't supposed to be in lodge.


either way, this healthcare bill is going to bankrupt us.


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## Sirius

JTM said:


> obama kills babies.  it's a fact.



Really? Personally? before or after his National Security Briefing?


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## Nate Riley

owls84 said:


> *My anger is where in the hell is this money going *to come from? It has to come from somewhere? Do you think the gov is going to foot the bill and go deeper in debt? No. It is going to come from companies and business owners. It is going to come from the rich in this country. Who is going to benefit from this plan? .



Yes, I know that in the short term (my life) my pocketbook will be hit and I am angry about that.  What angers me even more is the effect that the huge spending and policies of at least the last two adminstrations will have on my little girl.  I wonder if she will she have the opportunity to chase dreams with an entrepreneurial spirit and a finger to the government that have been the second biggest tradition in my family for many generations and the foundation of country.  

I guess its not about the money, but government control.


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## TCShelton

Sirius said:


> Did I misread?



Yes.  

It is our lives this _affects_, not _takes_.  Not to mention countless children.


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## TCShelton

owls84 said:


> My anger is where in the hell is this money going to come from? It has to come from somewhere?



Same place all of our ridiculous insurance premiums come from.  Our already thin wallets.  Looks to me like we are trading one scam for another, I mean hell, that's what insurance is anyway.  One big scam.


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## owls84

This thing is full of things that will cause middle class taxes to go up. Not to mention it will be repealing the tax breaks we currently get. There is a solution. Like I said I wouldn't have a problem but all of congress on the same plan. 

Want to do away with some corruption, make ANY amount of money or items received by a Politician Illegal. Hell if I get anything over $25 in value I have to give it to the company for our legal department to scrutinize. That is a meal included. That is mandatory because of our government contract yet it ok if you are elected. Do away with parties. Make a general political fund and it is spread out to all candidates evenly. Make all congressional raises have to go to a popular vote instead of their own. If you miss work you don't get paid. If you decide to no vote and then you don't get paid. Hell I don't need someone that is never there or one that is a no vote. I want a stance. How about that for a start?


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## TCShelton

owls84 said:


> How about that for a start?



I like.


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## owls84

http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf 

Read it and weep..!


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## Sirius

owls84 said:


> This thing is full of things that will cause middle class taxes to go up. Not to mention it will be repealing the tax breaks we currently get. There is a solution. Like I said I wouldn't have a problem but all of congress on the same plan.
> 
> Want to do away with some corruption, make ANY amount of money or items received by a Politician Illegal. Hell if I get anything over $25 in value I have to give it to the company for our legal department to scrutinize. That is a meal included. That is mandatory because of our government contract yet it ok if you are elected. Do away with parties. Make a general political fund and it is spread out to all candidates evenly. Make all congressional raises have to go to a popular vote instead of their own. If you miss work you don't get paid. If you decide to no vote and then you don't get paid. Hell I don't need someone that is never there or one that is a no vote. I want a stance. How about that for a start?



On the whole, I don't disagree. And there are rules. Members of congress cant even except a meal now. Not to mention the Supreme Court says money is speech. How do you get around that? What you are advocating is a massive expansion of the government.


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## Scotty32

> This plan will not spur competition. Health insurance companies cannot compete with a provider aka the Government who isn't required to turn a profit. On the flip side, those same companies are the ones who profit from denying treatment. I find it ironic that the Republicans in DC are on their soapbox now. It's not about giving two craps about YOU, it's about screwing the Democrats in 2010 by blocking this plan. They had years to pass something, they didn't. Why all of a sudden do they have all these wonderful new ideas to counteract the Obama plan? Why didn't they implement them when they had control. I'll tell ya why...$$$. Ah...tort reform...gotta love that suggestion. We passed that in Texas and while I can't speak for everyone, my premiums haven't gone down as promised. I'll sum it up for you Brothers, you're screwed either way. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's not about us, but control, power and money. The hard part is figuring out the lesser of two evils.




Blake I am glad you said this because I think it is the only thing so far that has been said that makes any sense at all. They had the chance to do something about this problem and they didn't. 

Let it be known, I hate Health insurance companies! They are the scum of the earth in my opinion & I will rejoice with great enthusiasm on the day when their executives are drug through the streets. They are not there to help us, they are there to make money.
All they care about is money. They will give a damn about nothing else but money. They are a cartel of criminals. I do not believe that the government should get involved in everything, but sorry, I would like to see them nail these cartels to the floor for what they do to people and run away with the disgusting amounts of profit masking it as the 'God almighty free market' at work. If that makes me a socialist, communist, liberal or whatever title you can come up with, then so be it. I don't give a damn!  I had to watch my father cry in agony for a couple weeks from kidney stones because it felt like his balls were being crushed by a hydraulic press. When you see a tough, 56 yr man in pain like that, it messes with you. He needed surgery to remove them because there were 2 the size of marbles. The health insurance co would only cover a small portion of the cost, what seemed like only a coupon. After appealing a couple times, they dropped him because they could care less about anything but making money. If you were in that situation or had to witness it, I am willing to bet you would feel the same way. 

Something needs to be done, and fast. The system is broken, and no it is not the best health care system in the world. It is not for the people, only for the money. So the sooner we can quit the childish pointing fingers and calling each other socialists and obstructionists, the better we can work together & fix the problem at hand.

Sorry, I'm done now. Just had to get that out there.


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## Wingnut

The bill, as its currently written, requires every person to have insurance.  Failure to get it will result in a 2% of their income fine.  Failure to pay, can result in jail. Im still trying to find in the Constitution where Congress can make it mandatory that a citizen spend his money on something other than taxes.

There is no torte reform, and yes blake you didnt get cheaper rates, but it also didnt raise at near the rate of the rest of the country.  The biggest gain for torte reform is it cuts out a lot of the testing that doctors have to run today to prevent a lawsuit.  Cutting out the extra tests will lower the costs of a doctor visit/hospital visit.

There is no opening of companies to sell insurance across state lines (like auto insurance) which would allow residents in states like AL where there are only a few insurance companies to purchase insurance from ANY company in the US.  This single provision would have saved a LOT of money!  The Public Option to encourage competion?  Open up the market and let me get insurance from any company I want!

Something that is often over looked in this is that in most cases it is NOT the insurance company that decided what your coverage would be.  Reality is its your coverage is decided by the contract YOUR EMPLOYER signed with the insurance company based on costs to the company and the premiums your willing to pay.  There is NOTHING stopping a person from getting different insurance with better coverage.  ATT Managers have a very POS insurance policy now that the CWA has gotten a good one.  So I dropped it and got insurance through my wifes company and an auxillary policy.

To that end many companies will look at the fine they will get for not covering their employees and compare it to the cost of providing coverage.  If the fine is (I believe I havent finished reading the bill) 8% and companies are paying 14% today for insurance what do you think they will do?  Your damn skippy, they wont renew their contract with the insurance companies and your swinging in the wind having to get the Public Option.

Yes, today insurance companies have a board or panel that decides coverage and this Public Option is no different.  Basically the Public Option is an HMO run by many new bureaucracies.  There wont be as much pressure for the Public Option to make money, but there sure as hell will be major pressure to keep costs down!  After all it has to be budget neutral.

Huge reductions based on eliminating fraud in Medicare?  Seriously?  They know where the fraud is and can get rid of it?  Then why the hell havent they before?


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## HKTidwell

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jul/23/health-care-debate-heats/

Alright I've heard numerous politicians lately talking about oh the health care industry is making record profits, or yada yada yada.  Insurance is a business, it is not in business to loose money.  I personally have an issue with people who drive the cost of health care up by going to the doctor, with a sniffle, cough, or runny nose, while expecting health insurance to cover the cost of it.  You know how many times an ambulance, Emergency room and/or Fire department run on stupid stuff that people have no right to abuse the system for.  Hello the Emergency room isn't for a sniffle.  If you haven't been to a emergency room lately go to one and look around the room.  Most the people could have seen a Dr. at his office but hey instead of putting money back they bought beer, new car, new TV, or something else.  

Years ago you might have insurance to cover broken bones, kidney stones, cancer, or any other "Major" incident but for all other things you paid cash.  Now we think it is a "Right" to have health care.  I'm sorry it isn't, it is a privileged!  My brother-in-law is a Farrier and he also had kidney stones, he did not have insurance.  I think the doctor wanted $12,000 dollar to use a laser to break the stones up, and would not allow for a payment plan.  Instead of doing this(lack of funds) my brother-in-law tried some home-remedies, and pills.  Eventually it worked, yes he was in pain but this was because of decisions he made.  To me $12,000 dollars is a ludicrous amount but I can also understand the cost the doctor incurs.  

We own a Environmental company, the insurance we carry is outrageous in cost. This cost is then passed on to our customers.  The Doctors carry insurance because of lawsuits, etc. I'm sure the cost on that insurance is nuts.  

As to premiums in the State of Texas, I believe if you look at the rate of increase in Texas it is lower then other states who have not enacted tort reform.  

I really tried not to comment in this thread to much, but the fact that we the people expect Government to do things for us is crazy.  What program has the Government touched which has increased in efficiency, lowered cost of operation, and hasn't been screwed up by politics?  When the government can run any of the numerous programs it has enacted over the years with efficiency, cost savings, and a lack of political wrangling I might be interested in them doing something for me.  Every time we give them more power, more ability to run our lives, and concede states rights we loose personal Freedoms.


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