# Opening and closing lodge



## Papatom

Should the Worshipful Master and both Wardens be able to open and close all four lodges correctly?


----------



## MacFie

From what I've seen, Masonry always seems to be improving in it's work, even if it isn't always perfect.


----------



## Bigmel

The Worshipful Master and Senior Warden should be able to open and close in all four lodges.  The Senior Warden moves to the East if WM is Absent or cannot perform his duties.  Even thouugh the Junior Warden does not move forward He should be in learning and know how to open all four Lodges.


----------



## David Duke

I would hope all three could open/close a MM, FC and EA with little trouble, the Lodge of Sorrow shouldn't but the double order seems to give a lot of people fits. But to be completely honest I would be pretty satisfied if the WM was proficient in all 4 because I have visited too many lodges where it seem to be a struggle just to get an EA opened and this is with the line officers in place and at mid year.


----------



## tomasball

Bigmel said:


> Even thouugh the Junior Warden does not move forward He should be in learning and know how to open all four Lodges.


 
I imagine you mean by that that if the SW has to serve as Master, the JW doesn't move up.  If both Master and SW are gone, the JW would serve as Master, right?

Tom Ball
District Instructor 40-A


----------



## Bro. Stewart P.M.

IMO, these principal officers owe it to the Lodge to which they serve to know the estorical opening & closing of all 4 Lodges. The WM, SW, & JW are elected for a reason and these stations of authority should not simply be "given" out just because.

You want to lead my Lodge? Show me.


----------



## Bigmel

Yes that is what i meant  my fingers got on the wrong keys


----------



## rhitland

Each Lodge to its own I say.  If the culture of the lodge demands good open and close they will have it.  If they demand good fish fries or fellowship then that is what they get.  Each lodge has a culture to itself and sometime the ritual work is not on the same priority ranking as another lodge.  I do not believe this makes them any less of a Mason just bad ritualist.  Just because it works in one lodge does not mean it will work in another.  No matter how bad they are you still see an open and a close and the effort is what counts.


----------



## Blake Bowden

Bro. Stewart said:


> IMO, these principal officers owe it to the Lodge to which they serve to know the estorical opening & closing of all 4 Lodges. The WM, SW, & JW are elected for a reason and these stations of authority should not simply be "given" out just because.
> 
> You want to lead my Lodge? Show me.


 
Well said.


----------



## jonesvilletexas

YES, YES,YES. I still can't belive the 101 was voted down.


----------



## gilv

Bro. Stewart said:


> IMO, these principal officers owe it to the Lodge to which they serve to know the estorical opening & closing of all 4 Lodges. The WM, SW, & JW are elected for a reason and these stations of authority should not simply be "given" out just because.
> 
> You want to lead my Lodge? Show me.


 
I agree 100%


----------



## jonesvilletexas

My EA Brother. Talk to your good brothers at your lodge in a one on one, some talk could have an EA or FC stopped by some brothers, and I for one would not wonâ€™t that to happen with you. You state a good point.


----------



## Dave in Waco

gilv said:


> I agree 100% with the borther but this brings lots of quiestions. Being so new (still an EA) to Masonary I don't understand how people get to occupy the possitions of leadership like WM, SW and JW. In my lodge they seem to be people that know the esoterical parts well and who (for the most part) are great leaders.
> 
> After reading some posts is seems that there is a certain and "given" chair rotation which implies that people may be moved in the Wm possition before they are ready not in the esoterical work but in the leadership qualities. Is this is the case, it must be a dangerous system to operate under. So WMs are not "voted" into the possition?


 
I also agree 100% that all 3 should know at least how to open and close in all 4 Lodges.  All 3 of those officers in my Lodge can and are getting "C" certificates in about a month.  

People usually do move up in the line of officers which is supposed to be based on them knowing the work and having good leadership qualities.  Depending on the Lodge there may be a lack of active talent, which those Lodges should look to recycling some of their past officers.  But WM, SW, JW, Sec, and Treasurer are all voted in by the Lodge.  Usually, the WM this year will nominate his SW to become WM for the next year.  He nominates the JW for SW, and the JW will nominate the SD.  A lot of times Sec and Treas are hold overs, and the WM will appoint the other officers usually moving those up who have served well in their position and wish to continue.  

While the WM runs the Lodge during his year, he usually works closely with his SW because he is at the same time training him to take over his chair for the next year.  The JW at that time also gets to observe more closely how the Lodge is managed and gets exposed more to the business side of the Lodge and also GL Law.  As JW, the GL Law Book becomes your friend, which reminds me that I need to put it on my phone.


----------



## HKTidwell

Brother Tom, me and you have discussed this before.  I have a unique perspective on this probably.  I'm currently  Senior Steward and if it pleases the lodge and WM then I will progress further in the chairs.  However if I do not feel like I'm ready to be a JW then I shall at that time withdrawl from progressing further..  

To me a JW better be able to effectively open/close lodge.  Chances are at some point in the year he may end up wearing the hat.  I happen to think that he should be able to open and close EA, FC, and MM lodge.  Don't really care if the JW and SW are able to do a Lodge of Sorrow.  I also believe that the JW, SW, and WM should be proficent in the degree work.  I use the term proficent and not the term perfect for a reason.  Ritual is important to a degree but the best ritualist may be the worst leader.  So sometimes there is a fine line.  We need to make sure the JW, SW, and WM are truely worthly leaders with a good grasp of the work, and the different lodges.


----------



## tomasball

Anyone who sits in the East needs to be fluent in the ceremonies required for the occasion for several reasons.  We come from all walks of life...that's the nature of a lodge...but when the man in the East drops the gavel, whether he's a judge or a janitor, he becomes MASTER.  The opening isn't just a formality; it sets the tone for the evening.  It focuses our attention on what we're doing.  The words we use establish the Master's authority and our duty to him.  

These ceremonies are a two-edged sword.  If the Master presides over the opening with confidence and skill, it makes the brethren confident of his right and competence to preside.  If he blunders through it, he embarrasses the brethren and makes them question whether he has the commitment to their interests and the mental capacity the job requires.  Those impressions, good or ill, are reinforced at every meeting. 

This reasoning will cause a Master to demand similar competency from his officers.  A well-performed opening is uplifting to us all, and that feeling is the main reason we come to lodge.  

Finally, competence in the ritual shows that the officers have respect for the brethren and their time.  It shows preparation and forethought.  Conversely, when the brethren see that the officers are poorly prepared, it tells them that the officers don't value their time and attention as they should.  Patience is often a non-renewable resource.

Tom Ball
District Instructor 40-A


----------



## gilv

jonesvilletexas said:


> some talk could have an EA or FC stopped by some brothers, and I for one would not wonâ€™t that to happen with you.



Jonesville my brother, I am not understanding your statement. Are you saying that as an EA I may be censored or expelled for expressing my point of view here on anywhere else?


----------



## rhitland

Why do we need Grand Lodge to police our ritual why can we not handle this at the lodge level?


----------



## ChrisB

What are the four lodges? Because I only know of three, and Im a PHA mason from new York. And I only know ea, fc,mm. Iam also a 7th degree ram.  Ok thank you then I do know all four. Next how do I upload a picture?


----------



## rhitland

4th is called Lodge of Sorrow which is required here to perform burials.


----------



## Bill Lins

Bro. Chris- we consider the MM Lodge of Sorrow to be separate from the usual MM Lodge, thus 4 Lodges.

WMPB- the problem is that the Lodges have not done a very good job of policing the ritual. Ask any Brother who has been around for 20 or 25 years or so- they'll tell you how badly the quality of the ritual has declined.

To add to what Bro. Ball posted, I feel that a Lodge officer should have enough pride in himself as an officer and enough consideration for his Brethren & Lodge to make himself as competent in the ritual as he can.


----------



## ChrisB

That true I can agree with that. Sometimes I see a lot of older brothers reading from a book. And it sickens me.


----------



## rhitland

Cannot argue that the ritual is in the krapper within allot of lodges but why?  It was spot on 30 years and back.  My lodge had two sometimes 3 degree teams that where about as clean as they come from I read and am told, so what happen?  Some of those men are even still alive and active?  Did Grand Lodge police the ritual back then?  My guess is it might be connected to the that generation not replacing themselves with the new generation so after years of churning out the same ritual they got tired of it and went on to something else.  Most went to appendant bodies where fresh challenges await them and the blue lodge ritual was left behind because no new blood was there to marvel in its mysteries.  That is just a theory.  Seeing the results Tommy Griffin had trying to improve the ritual I am not sure legislation would help.  That caused a ton of belly aching but maybe that is a good thing this is a tough issue as I am very partial to a good ritual but hate hearing the moaning some do over the issue.


----------



## Papatom

rhitland said:


> Cannot argue that the ritual is in the krapper within allot of lodges but why?  It was spot on 30 years and back.  My lodge had two sometimes 3 degree teams that where about as clean as they come from I read and am told, so what happen?  Some of those men are even still alive and active?  Did Grand Lodge police the ritual back then?  My guess is it might be connected to the that generation not replacing themselves with the new generation so after years of churning out the same ritual they got tired of it and went on to something else.  Most went to appendant bodies where fresh challenges await them and the blue lodge ritual was left behind because no new blood was there to marvel in its mysteries.  That is just a theory.  Seeing the results Tommy Griffin had trying to improve the ritual I am not sure legislation would help.  That caused a ton of belly aching but maybe that is a good thing this is a tough issue as I am very partial to a good ritual but hate hearing the moaning some do over the issue.


Do you know the difference between a terrorist and a ritualist?


----------



## rhitland

I think?  but enlighten me none the less.


----------



## Papatom

rhitland said:


> I think?  but enlighten me none the less.


Sometimes you can talk a terrorist into giving up.


----------



## Dave in Waco

rhitland said:


> Cannot argue that the ritual is in the krapper within allot of lodges but why? It was spot on 30 years and back. My lodge had two sometimes 3 degree teams that where about as clean as they come from I read and am told, so what happen? Some of those men are even still alive and active? Did Grand Lodge police the ritual back then? My guess is it might be connected to the that generation not replacing themselves with the new generation so after years of churning out the same ritual they got tired of it and went on to something else. Most went to appendant bodies where fresh challenges await them and the blue lodge ritual was left behind because no new blood was there to marvel in its mysteries. That is just a theory. Seeing the results Tommy Griffin had trying to improve the ritual I am not sure legislation would help. That caused a ton of belly aching but maybe that is a good thing this is a tough issue as I am very partial to a good ritual but hate hearing the moaning some do over the issue.



For some of those experienced Masons, it has just been so long since they have done the rituals.  I remember an EA degree we had a few months ago.  A PM from about 30 years ago wanted to master the degree, so we gave it to him and never doubted his ability him having performed so many degrees in the past.  I had been originally asked to confer it, but I was still a little shaky on a part and wanted to make sure the guy had a good degree.  So anyway, the PM went to confer the degree and he began to stumble right out of the gate.  He was prompted a little bit thinking that it would come flooding back.  It got progressively worse between his frustration with himself and from being prompted, and we found out afterwards that it had been about 30 years since he had done one.  So to that is a lesson in itself on the practice we need to maintain our knowledge.  

Right now, my Lodge has a set night every week we practice.  During practice we usually try to cover a degree plus questions and answers.  We also might go over openings and closings and/or other rituals in the Lodge.  It's both educational, plus gives everyone more of a chance to get comfortable taking on different roles and perfecting their usually.  Plus it makes it all look sharp, and perception goes a long way.


----------



## JEbeling

amen brother papatom... !


----------



## Bro. Stewart P.M.

rhitland said:


> Why do we need Grand Lodge to police our ritual why can we not handle this at the lodge level?



As much as I would love to be able to agree to a non-"policed" ritual it is unfortunate that many of the Lodge's as a whole are not currently preforming the rituals correctly today. District Instructors and ritualistic standards set forth by the Committee on Work are a needed structure for us to be able to keep that which is not written intact within its Ancient Form.


----------



## Bill Lins

rhitland said:


> Cannot argue that the ritual is in the krapper within allot of lodges but why?  It was spot on 30 years and back.  <snip>  Did Grand Lodge police the ritual back then?


 
Yes, they did.  Had the Grand West not done away with officer certification some years back, this whole thing would be a non-issue. What I find interesting is, that the Lodges with younger officers have no problem with certification nor with being graded on their proficiency. Rather than bitching about it, they have accepted the challenge and have arisen to it as all Lodge officers should.


----------



## kmfisher1

Should is the key word here. Yes, in a perfect world.


----------



## Bill Lins

Papa, the GL Law used to read "shall"- it got changed to "should" & that's when the ritual went south.


----------



## Papatom

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Papa, the GL Law used to read "shall"- it got changed to "should" & that's when the ritual went south.


 Do you think R.W. Carnes and R.W. Rogers can get the law changed back? I for one would sure like to see it happen. This past week I visited three lodges and 2 (TWO) could not even come close to opening or closing. Talk about short form.


----------



## Christopher

I think men come to Masonry for many different reasons, and I think that's okay.  For me personally, the ritual and philosophy is very important and meaningful.  I personally would enjoy a very formal lodge.  However, I've also come to appreciate sitting around in my jeans, chewing the fat, and just enjoying the company of my brothers.  I can understand why someone would come to Masonry and stay active in Masonry just for the company of good men.

In my opinion, we have more than enough lodges in Texas that we can have ritual/philosphy-focussed lodges and more fraternity-focussed lodges and direct candidates to lodges appropriate for their interests.  I think it's a sign of the depth of Freemasonry if different men can get different things out of it.


----------



## Bill Lins

Papatom said:


> Do you think R.W. Carnes and R.W. Rogers can get the law changed back?


 
Remember, it got changed back during PGM Griffin's year & then was gutted last year. I doubt it'll get changed back until the young guys take over the Grand West.


----------



## Bill Lins

Christopher said:


> I think men come to Masonry for many different reasons, and I think that's okay. However, I've also come to appreciate sitting around in my jeans, chewing the fat, and just enjoying the company of my brothers.  I can understand why someone would come to Masonry and stay active in Masonry just for the company of good men.



My Lodge is one in which we dress casually & put great importance on fellowship, however we also place great emphasis on correct ritual. (Could it be because the DI is also the Secretary?)  ;-)



Christopher said:


> In my opinion, we have more than enough lodges in Texas that we can have ritual/philosphy-focussed lodges and more fraternity-focussed lodges and direct candidates to lodges appropriate for their interests.  I think it's a sign of the depth of Freemasonry if different men can get different things out of it.


 
Why can't a Lodge place proper importance on both ritual & philosophy and fraternity? I think it can & mine does. We insist upon correct ritual, our Chaplain presents a Masonic educational talk (usually philosophical in nature) at almost every meeting, and, besides the fellowship before & during Lodge, many of us meet at a local watering hole afterwards for "Liquid Lodge".


----------



## MacFie

Yeah ours is very informal for the dinner and everything, but our guys are amazing with the work.  Every now and then there's a slip up, a bit of a laugh, and bam, people are better than they were before.  I'm glad I came across the lodge I did!


----------



## Papatom

> many of us meet at a local watering hole afterwards for "Liquid Lodge".


Are you going to share your LIQUID LODGE with other brothers?


----------



## Bro. Stewart P.M.

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> My Lodge is one in which we dress casually & put great importance on fellowship, however we also place great emphasis on correct ritual. (Could it be because the DI is also the Secretary?)  ;-)




Brother Bill, you are correct. Lodges need to have a proper balance of both in order to help appeal to both the older & younger Brothers.




Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Why can't a Lodge place proper importance on both ritual & philosophy and fraternity? I think it can & mine does. We insist upon correct ritual, our Chaplain presents a Masonic educational talk (usually philosophical in nature) at almost every meeting, and, besides the fellowship before & during Lodge, many of us meet at a local watering hole afterwards for "Liquid Lodge".




Our Lodge set up is very similar to yours. It is most likely easier for us to blend the estorical excellence with relaxation and fellowship when we meet twice a week. When it is time to prepare for an event or degree our floor school time is just that, school and the expectations are high. We are proud to have two District Instructors (14-G & 14-H) as members and mentors, what one doesn't catch the other one does. We laugh a lot during degree practice but the team pulls off spotless degrees come showtime. When we are not studying for something comming up we use the time to simply be social and "catch up" in each others lives.

I must also add that we have a "5-O'clock" crew that meets up before everything really starts on meeting nights. We get all of our social activities done and out of the way long before the older crew shows up at 6:45PM for the instruction or degree. I really believe that this really helps our fraternal bonds.

I LOVE the idea of a Liquid Lodge!


----------



## Bill Lins

Papatom said:


> Are you going to share your LIQUID LODGE with other brothers?


 
Sure! Following our stated meetings on the second Tuesday of every month at Larry's Texas Cafe y Cantina, 210 S. Richmond Rd., Wharton, Texas- come on down!


----------



## kmfisher1

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Papa, the GL Law used to read "shall"- it got changed to "should" & that's when the ritual went south.


 
Sad, that with the change of one word the work could become so bad in such a short time. That change had to have been for-see-able...or did it just go from bad to worse?


----------



## Bill Lins

Couldn't tell ya- before my time.


----------



## owls84

Bill_Lins77488 said:


> Yes, they did.  Had the Grand West not done away with officer certification some years back, this whole thing would be a non-issue. What I find interesting is, that the Lodges with younger officers have no problem with certification nor with being graded on their proficiency. Rather than bitching about it, they have accepted the challenge and have arisen to it as all Lodge officers should.


 
I think it is a pride thing Bill. Even though the Grand West did away with it each year at Fort Worth 148/Tarrant 942 we have have our 3 Sr. Officers for the upcoming year certified in all 4. It is not a "Law" but it is "Tradition" now. We even have a small requirement that you must have confered at least one degree. Bottom line is we have raised the bar. Yeah there is no law on it but you can bet if someone doesn't have it done they won't be mentioned for the nomination much less the vote.


----------



## Dave in Waco

owls84 said:


> I think it is a pride thing Bill. Even though the Grand West did away with it each year at Fort Worth 148/Tarrant 942 we have have our 3 Sr. Officers for the upcoming year certified in all 4. It is not a "Law" but it is "Tradition" now. We even have a small requirement that you must have confered at least one degree. Bottom line is we have raised the bar. Yeah there is no law on it but you can bet if someone doesn't have it done they won't be mentioned for the nomination much less the vote.



I think those are excellent "traditions" to have.  We are establishing a few of those same traditions in my Lodge.


----------



## JEbeling

I think its hard for some people to understand that some brothern will not sit around and wait for a visit from the Grand Inquisitor.. ! The Grand Lodge has a hard time understanding when they pass some of the Great Ideas that some brothern just don't like having the Grand Lodge run everything...? I know of two lodges that just closed.. ! the Brothern meet once a month at a local eatery and have lunch with their family .. ! and heard comments by some of the Grand Inquisitors that THESE PEOPLE don't need to be in masonary.. ? sad day in masonary when a little club of ritualist can set themself up as better that other masons and start "weeding them out.." ..?


----------



## owls84

Then join the Kiwanians. This Fraternity is not for everyone but we do have to keep the ritual and the teachings alive. I am not saying everyone needs to be "A" certified but we have to pass this on to other generations. I am not for opening the doors for every swinging Richard can get in the door just so we can appease the Appendant Bodies. We are going to close doors because towns are dying themselves. People are moving to metropolitan areas. Heck I know Lodges here that are bringing people in but since their dues are at a minimum there will be lucky to stay open 5 years. There is no easy answer but just because some Lodges refuse to reinvent themselves and upgrade with the times don't mean we need to open the gates. If you want to call "weeding them out" then thats what it is. It is weeding out the ones that don't need to be leaders. It is this mentality that has caused us to be in the shape we are in currently.


----------



## JEbeling

Well I think you proved my point... ! If they can't strive for perfection ( like us ) then they should be weeded out.. !


----------



## rhitland

Good point Jebeling.  Would we want someone in the frat that has no desire for perfection?  That desire is what drives us to be better men so one day we may be perfect or enter that perfect realm. (depending how you believe)  This frat makes good men better mostly by the atmosphere these better men can create for the good men to safely and quickly get better.   If we flood the frat with good men or allow the good men in the frat to stay who are complacent with the way things are on any level and have no desire to achieve that perfect spiritual building then the atmosphere becomes that as well, and these good men predominantly stay good men and there is rare chance for labor on our spiritual temple.  The word perfect ritual is certainly not the end all be all but that desire to make it and everything else around us better is the quintessential quality of a mason.  No matter how good a man is if he has no desire to get better (and as a mason that includes the ritual) then he will constantly feel misunderstood in Freemasonry.


----------



## Dave in Waco

JEbeling said:


> Well I think you proved my point... ! If they can't strive for perfection ( like us ) then they should be weeded out.. !



That's not what he said.  He's saying that we don't need to lower our standards just to bring in more people.  Again, it goes back to Res #1 cheapening Masonary.  I will not be a party of robbing new Masons of being able to share in the same experiences that we have.  Why is it you want to take that away from them so bad?  Our membership isn't hurting so bad that we have to lower our standards for our membership to grow.  

I will not be party in the making of Masonary Lite.  If you think that's where the future of Masonary lies, that perhaps you should get to know the brothers that are up and coming better.  The brothers that are on the move do not want the diluting of the Craft, we want to enrich it.  We do not want the easy path.  Perhaps you've completely missed all the discussion on improving and enhancing Masonic education?  That desire has been almost universal here.  Making the memory work runs complete counter to that growing movement inside the lodges.  And yes, that movement has already moved far beyond the discussions on here.  It was a feeling I heard expressed at the JW Retreat and heard other talk about from other retreats.  

So my vote at the Grand Communication will be a resounding "NO" on Res #1 and the cheapening of Masonary.


----------



## JEbeling

Those are your words not mine... ! your idea of standards have nothing to do with masonary.. ! it has only to do with the memory work.. ! none of the other qualification that recomand a man to be made a mason count... ! only one thing matters.. ! if he can remember the 2 and 3 sectons of the EA... ! in your words masonary is cheap in all other Grand Lodges...? they should not even be allowed to visit.. ! they are just low lifes because they don't learn all the memory work... ! in fact if we lerned all the work in the monoter we could even have better masons...?


----------



## Bill Lins

owls84 said:


> I think it is a pride thing Bill. Even though the Grand West did away with it each year at Fort Worth 148/Tarrant 942 we have have our 3 Sr. Officers for the upcoming year certified in all 4. It is not a "Law" but it is "Tradition" now. We even have a small requirement that you must have confered at least one degree. Bottom line is we have raised the bar. Yeah there is no law on it but you can bet if someone doesn't have it done they won't be mentioned for the nomination much less the vote.


 
In order to conform to Art. 276a we have the prospective officers pro tem in the offices they seek at the stated meeting one month prior to election & demonstrate their proficiency in the work. While perfection is not required, I'm sure the Brethren take their performance into account when making their decisions.

While I make no claim that ritual is the most important part of Masonry, I believe that not only the lessons taught in the material, but the rigor of learning it, are as important as any other part. And yes, we all SHOULD strive for perfection, even though we all know we will never attain it.


----------



## Bill Lins

JEbeling said:


> I know of two lodges that just closed.. !


 
I've never heard of any Lodge which demised due to a lack of proficiency in the ritual. Their lack of proficiency was merely a symptom of the problems that caused their demise.


----------



## Papatom

Just a good note; Fredericksburg Lodge #794 all three Officers are "A" certificate carrying Brothers, and two appointed officers are "B" certified. I think that is a great accomplishment for a small lodge with under 100 members.


----------



## rhitland

yes it is Brother Papa.


----------



## Dave in Waco

Papatom said:


> Just a good note; Fredericksburg Lodge #794 all three Officers are "A" certificate carrying Brothers, and two appointed officers are "B" certified. I think that is a great accomplishment for a small lodge with under 100 members.



Brother Papa, I think that's a great accomplishment for any lodge!!


----------



## Bill Lins

Papatom said:


> Fredericksburg Lodge #794 all three Officers are "A" certificate carrying Brothers, and two appointed officers are "B" certified. I think that is a great accomplishment for a small lodge with under 100 members.


 
That is noteworthy!


----------



## Dave in Waco

JEbeling said:


> Those are your words not mine... ! your idea of standards have nothing to do with masonary.. ! it has only to do with the memory work.. ! none of the other qualification that recomand a man to be made a mason count... ! only one thing matters.. ! if he can remember the 2 and 3 sectons of the EA... ! in your words masonary is cheap in all other Grand Lodges...? they should not even be allowed to visit.. ! they are just low lifes because they don't learn all the memory work... ! in fact if we lerned all the work in the monoter we could even have better masons...?



Actually those are your own words, because that is not what I said.  You seem to "paraphrase" by taking opinions out of context and applying them in a manner that was not present or alluded to in order to suit your own opinion.  I would appreciate it if in the future you didn't make up opinions for me, akin to me saying that because you support Res. #1 by extention you are against all education.  I don't know what axe you have to grind against the Committee of Work, but I do not wish to be drug into your personal issues.


----------



## JEbeling

This is not the first time this was debated... ! when Grand Master Jack Kelly came into office he ordered that only the first section of the EA's had to be turn in... ! the other sections were optional... ! and the same whinnnnnng about how important it was came from all the ritualist... ! We are in a more serious time now then we were then with 30%-35% of the men we have come in as EA's don't make it to the fellowcrafts degree...? is it all because of the work.. NO.. ! is some it because of the amount of the work... YES.. ! and as far as having an axe to grind with the committee on hope and change .. the answer is .. YES.. ! but thats another debate.. ! The number of Texas masons have gone from 265,000+/- to somewhere in the 140,000+/-....? There is great preasure on the Scottish Rite and Shrine to take in non-masons.. ? and with millions of dollars in hospital overhead.. ! Great works for all children with both hospitals.. ! and we debate how important those two sections are...? I think we should do everything we can to up our membership in Texas.. ! and your right it is personal.. ! its about the furture of masonary in Texas.. ! and not turning Masonary from what it has been into a little click of ritualist who don't even what someone to be master of a lodge unless they can pass the Grand Inquisitor.. ! and the arrogance to believe that the more memory work produces better masons..? because memory work is their thing.. ?


----------



## Dave in Waco

So the root of it all is numbers.  I will point out that our history shows that in Texas we have done some of our best work when we were a small group.  I would also point out that Masonry follows economic trends as well, yet in the last few years we have seen increases in the number of new Masons.  To put it in a strictly numbers sense, right now the group that swelled our ranks to record levels 50 years ago are accounting for the greatest number of losses among our members.  Not to be crasp, but when the largest demographic comes to the end of its run, it's natural that our numbers go down.  

The thing to remember, is that they 40 and under crowd is the demographic that is picking up steam, and they are the ones that don't want Masonary Lite.  They want the full experience.  So if numbers are your concern, then marketing strategy would dictate that you market to your target demographic, and that demographic wants the work.  You've heard too many of them speak about that on here to even begin to legitimately deny that.  If Scottish Rite and Shriners are so concerned with getting their numbers up, then I would suggest they become more active in their blue lodges to get their numbers up first.  This is not so different then the Cola Wars from the 80's.  Coke changed their famous formula to be more like Pepsi all the while they had been marketing to the wrong people.  Pepsi was marketing to the young crowd while Coke was marketing to the people they already had.  You lessen the work to market to the people we already have, just like Coke, you blinked, and we will continue to lose good men by not marketing to them.

I suggest you put aside your differences with the Committee on Work and open your mind to reason and the facts.  Look at the facts, lodges with active members aren't the ones that lessen the work, they are the ones enrich the Craft and educate their members.  Those aren't the little clicks that you suggests, they are the future of Masonary regardless of if you like it or not, because they are the part of Masonary that is growing.  You see them as a little click because these are the people just now starting to show up at GL, but it is also the group that grows larger every year.  And for your information, this "little click" as you call it, isn't worried about the "Grand Inquisitor" because what they strive in themselves is beyond what the "Grand Inquisitor" looks to pass.  They hold themselves to a higher standard.  They compete with themselves and help each other to be better ritualist, better morally, better men, and above all better Masons.  And they will not let you take those things from them because you can't or won't get along with the C.O.W.

If Masonary dies, it will be because people like you JEbeling made it irrelievent by making it so easy.  Open your eyes and look what the young brothers are wanting, because it's not to be coddled and made weaker.  Look at the numbers, overall in the state a third don't make it from EA to FC, but in the Lodges of the people on here who have spoken out against lessening the work are in Lodges +90% success rates.  We are the ones having the success, I wise man would listen to the people who are having success.


----------



## MacFie

> I would suggest they become more active in their blue lodges to get their numbers up first.



Great statement there imo


----------



## Bro. Stewart P.M.

Okay Boyz.

The fact is that "we" may have to agree to disagree on this issue. There is no sense to get too personal in our statements as is the key to all debates. The minute a Debate turns personal it becomes an Argument. IMO, from this point on everyone involved should present facts and facts only. Try not to use I, You, We and other more personal discriptions.

I have read quite a few posts that I personally feel were written in anger, frustration, and spite. This type of posting is disruptive to the Harmony and Balance we Brothers are responsible for upkeeping. Remember the lesson of the Compasses, and the Level. So we ever meet act and part.

So Mote it Be!


----------



## david918

I agree with brother Stewart we should remember the working tools of a Master Mason.


----------



## rhitland

Great post Brother Dave.  I remember the cola wars well and that is a very colorful comparison to our troubles now! 
Brother Stewart's wisdom is very true, hot heads get us no where so we must all "be a couple of Fonzies and be cool" Now on to the Facts Jack.  Nothing is wrong with a little passion as long as it is in due bounds though.


----------



## Bill Lins

david918 said:


> I agree with brother Stewart we should remember the working tools of a Master Mason.


 
You mean baseball bats & tire tools?  :wink:


----------



## Dave in Waco

Bro. Stewart said:


> Okay Boyz.
> 
> The fact is that "we" may have to agree to disagree on this issue. There is no sense to get too personal in our statements as is the key to all debates. The minute a Debate turns personal it becomes an Argument. IMO, from this point on everyone involved should present facts and facts only. Try not to use I, You, We and other more personal discriptions.
> 
> I have read quite a few posts that I personally feel were written in anger, frustration, and spite. This type of posting is disruptive to the Harmony and Balance we Brothers are responsible for upkeeping. Remember the lesson of the Compasses, and the Level. So we ever meet act and part.
> 
> So Mote it Be!



Whew! I thought I was in trouble for a moment, but you didn't use my whole name or threaten to turn the car around. :-D

You are quite correct Brother.  I will keep my passions within due bounds.


----------

