# 'The Elitist Inside'



## CLewey44 (Aug 2, 2017)

I saw this on TMR podcast on Youtube and wanted to share it. Any thoughts?

http://www.millennialfreemason.com/2017/07/the-elitist-inside.html


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 2, 2017)

Wow! Certainly something to think about and some very valid points!


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## CLewey44 (Aug 2, 2017)

Yeah, I thought so too. Some sort of provocative statements too but then again, some pretty legit statements too.


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## JJones (Aug 2, 2017)

Dues are too low, I believe this very firmly. I think he's suggesting that we raise them too high but there's got to be a middle ground somewhere.

I'm starting to believe there's a real disconnect between the predominant generation we currently have in the fraternity and my generation, which is what we are trying to attract. The GI generation seems to feel that dues need to be low while the Millenials expect Freemasonry to be expensive and they are generally surprised when they find out it is not. This is part of the reason I suspect we don't stick around. (In fact, I'm the only Millenial I know of that has remained active in the fraternity for as long as I have...which I think is a little over ten years).

I actually had a guy my age expect to pay a few thousand dollars to become a mason when everything was said and done. He was very surprised, and a little disappointed, that it was so cheap and easy to join.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 2, 2017)

JJones said:


> The GI generation seems to feel that dues need to be low while the Millenials expect Freemasonry to be expensive and they are generally surprised when they find out it is not.


True. Al lot of the older guys around get outraged and threaten to leave the lodge if you talk about raising dues.


JJones said:


> This is part of the reason I suspect we don't stick around. (In fact, I'm the only Millenial I know of that has remained active in the fraternity for as long as I have...which I think is a little over ten years).


This is sad.


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## CLewey44 (Aug 2, 2017)

JJones said:


> Dues are too low, I believe this very firmly. I think he's suggesting that we raise them too high but there's got to be a middle ground somewhere.
> 
> I'm starting to believe there's a real disconnect between the predominant generation we currently have in the fraternity and my generation, which is what we are trying to attract. The GI generation seems to feel that dues need to be low while the Millenials expect Freemasonry to be expensive and they are generally surprised when they find out it is not. This is part of the reason I suspect we don't stick around. (In fact, I'm the only Millenial I know of that has remained active in the fraternity for as long as I have...which I think is a little over ten years).
> 
> I actually had a guy my age expect to pay a few thousand dollars to become a mason when everything was said and done. He was very surprised, and a little disappointed, that it was so cheap and easy to join.



My thoughts too.


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## chrmc (Aug 2, 2017)

One of my friends usually say that if something is easy to obtain and cheap to maintain people usually won't value it. 
Not saying that we need to charge a lot just for the sake of it, but what you are willing to pay for something and how much you value it is linked to some degree.


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## BullDozer Harrell (Aug 2, 2017)

All i know is that my Lodge raised dues a couple of times but had to reverse those hikes the following year. 

I wasn't Sec'y then so i don't know the exact math percentage of lost membership. But we did find ourselves with a very steep drop in membership. They began to come back the following year every time after we amended our by-laws covering dues.


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## CLewey44 (Aug 3, 2017)

chrmc said:


> One of my friends usually say that if something is easy to obtain and cheap to maintain people usually won't value it.
> Not saying that we need to charge a lot just for the sake of it, but what you are willing to pay for something and how much you value it is linked to some degree.


 Totally. I don't know if it'll ever get through to some members. Dues actually may be pretty much spot on in some lodges as I know some lodges that have 10s of thousands of dollars saved up. Some may even have 100s or more. With that said, that money should be going back into the lodge for updates, guest speakers, and nice dinners/events. Not just Little Caesars (not a knock against them lol) and carpet that is 40 years old, wood paneling walls. Young folks walk in a see that, they are turned off.


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## Bloke (Aug 3, 2017)

"We don't have doctors, lawyers, and businessmen joining."

Our lodges are full of lawyers and business people. I only know a few Doctors, but they have very little social life and are constantly working...

Out of interest, I just looked at employment at my mother lodge;
Architect 1
Currency Trader 1
Employee 7
Farmer 1
Gov Servant 1
Lawyer 2
Medical 1
Nurse 3
Pensioner 2
Retired 10
Self Employed 1
Small Business Owner 6 (and ones another farmer who retails his harvest)
Student 3
Tradesperson 1
Unknown 1

I'm one of those professions he lists as not joining the Craft (business person, not a lawyer). My lodges does are about $240 and $350 for each craft lodge (plus a GL fee of $114, noting its about .79 AUD to $1 USD, average Australia wage is $80K, USA $81K PA).

The blog was interesting, but I get the feeling very Nth American centric... however he is right, look at the history of a building, and you will often find a patron who was a brother - we just don't seem to get those anymore in the English speaking world.....


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## CLewey44 (Aug 3, 2017)

Bloke said:


> "We don't have doctors, lawyers, and businessmen joining."
> 
> Our lodges are full of lawyers and business people. I only know a few Doctors, but they have very little social life and are constantly working...
> 
> ...



Who's the 'Unknown' guy lol.


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## Elexir (Aug 3, 2017)

Bloke said:


> "The blog was interesting, but I get the feeling very Nth American centric... however he is right, look at the history of a building, and you will often find a patron who was a brother - we just don't seem to get those anymore in the English speaking world.....



My English seen to fail me here. So you mean patron as person paying for a buildnig?


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## Bloke (Aug 3, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> Who's the 'Unknown' guy lol.


Not sure what he is up to - he's MIA.... changed his mobile and not responding to email or post... he's from South America and might be on a trip home... not sure what he did...


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## Bloke (Aug 3, 2017)

Elexir said:


> My English seen to fail me here. So you mean patron as person paying for a buildnig?


Yes, that's what I mean. (or making a substantial contribution, or one of several, or donating land to build). It's quite common in the histories of local Freemasonry here.


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## Derek Harvey (Aug 3, 2017)

They think it cost alot because of all the disinformation on the Internet. It's because they don't really know what it about.

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## CLewey44 (Aug 3, 2017)

I don't know if it is misinformation necessarily. In Europe, India for example, it does cost a lot. 10x or more what it costs here in some cases. They also typically have nicer facilities and guard the west a little more diligently.


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## Derek Harvey (Aug 3, 2017)

I don't no about you but I'm not rich. 

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## Derek Harvey (Aug 3, 2017)

More than half the people in America are by no means wealthy. If I was I'd give a lot more to masonic charities lol

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## Derek Harvey (Aug 3, 2017)

I to expected there to be more rich and powerful people. My cousin got me in. Now in a couple of days I'm joining the York rite in a one day festival.  At the end of the day I will be a member of the Knights templar 

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## CLewey44 (Aug 3, 2017)

Derek Harvey said:


> I to expected there to be more rich and powerful people. My cousin got me in. Now in a couple of days I'm joining the York rite in a one day festival.  At the end of the day I will be a member of the Knights templar
> 
> Sent from my SM-G360T1 using My Freemasonry mobile app


Nice, a buddy of mine may be apart of the ritual team there in Norman. WM in Edmond this year. No, I'm not rich either lol.


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## Thomas Stright (Aug 3, 2017)

I wouldn't mind seeing our dues doubled.... Would still be cheap IMHO.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 3, 2017)

Derek Harvey said:


> Now in a couple of days I'm joining the York rite in a one day festival. At the end of the day I will be a member of the Knights templar


Great!


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## JJones (Aug 3, 2017)

Derek Harvey said:


> They think it cost alot because of all the disinformation on the Internet. It's because they don't really know what it about.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G360T1 using My Freemasonry mobile app



Is there disinfo that says we are expensive online? Serious question because I haven't seen it.

I think younger generations perceive our fraternity as something that's old, exclusive, mysterious, and respectable and, because of this, they assume it will be expensive. Millenials know that quality things should be expensive and we should be flattered that they associate our fraternity with quality, but I think the disconnect begins the moment they walk into many of our doors and realize that entire masonic generations have done everything they could to make the fraternity as mundane as possible.


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## CLewey44 (Aug 3, 2017)

JJones said:


> Is there disinfo that says we are expensive online? Serious question because I haven't seen it.
> 
> ... disconnect begins the moment they walk into many of our doors and realize that entire masonic generations have done everything they could to make the fraternity as mundane as possible....



Unfortunately, this is true in many cases.


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 3, 2017)

See i dont think that quality necessarily needs to be expensive, and i guess technically im a millenial(that was so hard to type)  
I think levis are better quality then Lucky brand jeans and luckys are WAAAAY more expensive.  As for dues if they had been as much as is being called for in the article i wouldnt have been able to join when i did.

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## JJones (Aug 3, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> See i dont think that quality necessarily needs to be expensive, and i guess technically im a millenial(that was so hard to type)
> I think levis are better quality then Lucky brand jeans and luckys are WAAAAY more expensive.  As for dues if they had been as much as is being called for in the article i wouldnt have been able to join when i did.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app



It was really hard for me to type at first also. I was born in '83 so I was born at a time when I could probably be called either generation.

You're right, sometimes you're just paying for a name and Freemasonry is THE name as far as fraternities go. That alone doesn't justify dues like are mentioned in the article.

I think the real key point to all of this dues talk is the fact that simply raising dues doesn't guarantee anything and I'm in agreement that raising dues jsut for the sake of raising them is likely to run people off. Now, if that money is going back into the making the lodge a better/nicer place and improving the overall lodge experience (better food/catering, guest speakers, new carpet, paint the walls, etc.) then the dues increase won't seem so arbitrary to the membership.


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## MarkR (Aug 4, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> I think levis are better quality then Lucky brand jeans and luckys are WAAAAY more expensive.


I'm a Wrangler guy, myself!


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## CLewey44 (Aug 4, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> See i dont think that quality necessarily needs to be expensive, and i guess technically im a millenial(that was so hard to type)
> I think levis are better quality then Lucky brand jeans and luckys are WAAAAY more expensive.  As for dues if they had been as much as is being called for in the article i wouldnt have been able to join when i did.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app



I'm with you on that, I wouldn't have been able to join at those astronomical numbers (and maybe that would indicate I'm not ready at that time) but it would weed out a lot less desirable folks and make fellows take it a bit more seriously. If I dropped that kind of money, I'd be at every single meeting available if they were good. Which leads to the next point, raising dues doesn't necessarily equate better lodge experience, however if the money was put to good use it would provide for better experiences and potentially a better 'selling point' to potential new members. To me, it's not just about raising the dues but improving the lodge and the lodge experience.


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 4, 2017)

MarkR said:


> I'm a Wrangler guy, myself!


Wearing those now

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## Derek Harvey (Aug 4, 2017)

JJones said:


> Is there disinfo that says we are expensive online? Serious question because I haven't seen it.
> 
> I think younger generations perceive our fraternity as something that's old, exclusive, mysterious, and respectable and, because of this, they assume it will be expensive. Millenials know that quality things should be expensive and we should be flattered that they associate our fraternity with quality, but I think the disconnect begins the moment they walk into many of our doors and realize that entire masonic generations have done everything they could to make the fraternity as mundane as possible.


My step daughter told my wife" he's not a real freemason that would cost $100,000 lol

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## Warrior1256 (Aug 4, 2017)

JJones said:


> I think the disconnect begins the moment they walk into many of our doors and realize that entire masonic generations have done everything they could to make the fraternity as mundane as possible.





CLewey44 said:


> Unfortunately, this is true in many cases.


Yep.


JJones said:


> I'm in agreement that raising dues jsut for the sake of raising them is likely to run people off. Now, if that money is going back into the making the lodge a better/nicer place and improving the overall lodge experience (better food/catering, guest speakers, new carpet, paint the walls, etc.) then the dues increase won't seem so arbitrary to the membership.


Yes.


CLewey44 said:


> if the money was put to good use it would provide for better experiences and potentially a better 'selling point' to potential new members. To me, it's not just about raising the dues but improving the lodge and the lodge experience.


Yes.


Derek Harvey said:


> My step daughter told my wife" he's not a real freemason that would cost $100,000 lol


Lol!


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## BullDozer Harrell (Aug 4, 2017)

Ripcord22A said:


> See i dont think that quality necessarily needs to be expensive, and i guess technically im a millenial(that was so hard to type)
> I think levis are better quality then Lucky brand jeans and luckys are WAAAAY more expensive.  As for dues if they had been as much as is being called for in the article i wouldnt have been able to join when i did.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app


Well said Brother. Not sure what generation i fall in at 45yrs old. But you said something that's strikingly 'old school' and makes you even more ok with me.

Quality doesn't need to be expensive. I spend my money on jeans without a name at the discount store and find they fit better than the high end name brand pants out there in the big name stores. 

Same as shoes. The sneakers i might spend $50-60 tops are more comfortable and seem to outlast the fancy brands.


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## CLewey44 (Aug 5, 2017)

I think we are veering off track and it makes anyone that agrees with the article, whether partly or completely, seem a little shallow and too concerned with physical things like nice cars and whatnot. I understand being on the level and being humble etc is apart of Masonry but the lodge experience can always stand for improvement and have some respect thrown towards it. Lets be on the level, but lets be on a higher level. Lets raise ourselves up to that level if possible.

One point of this article was not only 'lets charge more and buy flamboyant xyz articles for the lodge and act like arrogant pricks' One of the points was also that by charging more, it does allow for less members being herded in like cattle. For 50 bucks you can learn all the secrets of Masonry type of thing which cheapens the entire fraternity. One thing I remember, my wife was so curious about the lodge and she had heard about how nice the lodges were where she is from and had seen them from the outside. She's also an architect by trade and lived in Europe/Asia most of her life.  Later I took her to a family event and she was so shocked as to how out dated and how poorly some people presented themselves. The intrigue suddenly left her just from a family event with the dated furniture and décor, fold out metal chairs and plastic fold out tables. Cheap wood paneling and paper thin doors. It lacked anything she ever expected from a Masonic lodge. The same applies to new members when they get in and leave less than impressed.  It helps guard the west from less desirable folks. It allows for a nicer experience when fellas do show up and increased attendance hopefully. My lodge may have 200 members but on any given night, only 10-18 shows up. That sort of participation says something and it says, we are failing our members and if charging more is one answer, so mote it be.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 5, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> One point of this article was not only 'lets charge more and buy flamboyant xyz articles for the lodge and act like arrogant pricks' One of the points was also that by charging more, it does allow for less members being herded in like cattle. For 50 bucks you can learn all the secrets of Masonry type of thing which cheapens the entire fraternity.


True.


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## JJones (Aug 6, 2017)

Cheap dues (and a lax West Gate) allow for lots of dabblers to enter the fraternity. A dabbler is someone who's 'kind of' interested and goes ahead and petitions because it's so cheap and easy to get in. We're really practically giving away the secrets of our fraternity at bargain bin rates.

Higher dues may run a few men off, but from what I've read over the years this number tends to be very low, provided the lodge invests that money back into the Masonic experience. It would also seem that those that remain are more likely to be active in the lodge. This is likely because they are paying more money so they are determined to get everything out of their membership that they can.


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## CLewey44 (Aug 6, 2017)

JJones said:


> Cheap dues (and a lax West Gate) allow for lots of dabblers to enter the fraternity. A dabbler is someone who's 'kind of' interested and goes ahead and petitions because it's so cheap and easy to get in. We're really practically giving away the secrets of our fraternity at bargain bin rates.
> 
> Higher dues may run a few men off, but from what I've read over the years this number tends to be very low, provided the lodge invests that money back into the Masonic experience. It would also seem that those that remain are more likely to be active in the lodge. This is likely because they are paying more money so they are determined to get everything out of their membership that they can.



W. Bro. Jones, I think we're on the same page with this.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 6, 2017)

JJones said:


> Higher dues may run a few men off, but from what I've read over the years this number tends to be very low, provided the lodge invests that money back into the Masonic experience. It would also seem that those that remain are more likely to be active in the lodge. This is likely because they are paying more money so they are determined to get everything out of their membership that they can.


Agreed!


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## JJones (Aug 6, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> W. Bro. Jones, I think we're on the same page with this.



Wow, nobody has ever called me that before. We don't address past masters like that here in Texas, although I wish we did.


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## Thomas Stright (Aug 7, 2017)

JJones said:


> Cheap dues (and a lax West Gate) allow for lots of dabblers to enter the fraternity. A dabbler is someone who's 'kind of' interested and goes ahead and petitions because it's so cheap and easy to get in. We're really practically giving away the secrets of our fraternity at bargain bin rates.
> 
> Higher dues may run a few men off, but from what I've read over the years this number tends to be very low, provided the lodge invests that money back into the Masonic experience. It would also seem that those that remain are more likely to be active in the lodge. This is likely because they are paying more money so they are determined to get everything out of their membership that they can.





CLewey44 said:


> W. Bro. Jones, I think we're on the same page with this.



Same here...

I will say that the reason I want dues to be doubled is $10/mo is a joke. Lodge would be able to do so much more IMHO if dues were $20/mo. minimum...


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## Keith C (Aug 7, 2017)

I recall when I set up my interview with the investigating committee they mentioned they prefer to meet at the candidate's home to "see how they live" and to be sure by observation and discussion with the candidate and family that the Dues "Wouldn't be a burden financially for the family."  I was thinking to myself "OMG, the yearly dues must be pretty high"...Though I was fairly certain I could afford it whatever it would be.  Turns out dues for our lodge are $90.00 / year.  I was a bit surprised that they were that low and the lodge was concerned that $90 would prove to be a 'burden."

I get the feeling the dues have been at this level for a long time, and perhaps when put in place would have been considered expensive.  The financial situation in our lodge, however, make is very difficult to suggest raising the dues.  We have substantial funds in reserve and even tough we are currently spending significant amounts on building improvement, there is no real justification to raise dues.  Our programs and our building do need improvements, but they are systematically being done well within the resources we have at hand and more money wouldn't make them go faster.  

I think one of the biggest obstacles to improvement of the Lodge, either physically or in programs is resistance to change, no lack of funds in our case.


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 7, 2017)

Thomas Stright said:


> Lodge would be able to do so much more IMHO if dues were $20/mo. minimum...


The dues in my mother lodge are $55.00 YEARLY!


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 7, 2017)

Keith C said:


> The financial situation in our lodge, however, make is very difficult to suggest raising the dues. We have substantial funds in reserve


Same here. A lot of lodges are really struggling financially but both lodges that I belong to are very financially sound.


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## LK600 (Aug 7, 2017)

I'm fairly new so I can only give my perspective from that point of view.  I believe entry fees should be quadrupled  (in most cases... some places it's already high) and dues should be at minimum, tripled.  We have Lodges falling apart and others looking like they haven't been updated since the 50's-60's... which is probably accurate.  Most Lodge's (in my limited experience) have next to no money for education, events, or buying much more than stamps. 

It should not be easy to join, but there should be a clear path for all to potentially be able to join.  Instant gratification is not what we are about, and accepting Lodges with cracks on the walls and yellowed 1950's drop ceilings shouldn't be acceptable.  Sorry lol... rant off.


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## CLewey44 (Aug 7, 2017)

Keith C said:


> I recall when I set up my interview with the investigating committee they mentioned they prefer to meet at the candidate's home to "see how they live" and to be sure by observation and discussion with the candidate and family that the Dues "Wouldn't be a burden financially for the family."  I was thinking to myself "OMG, the yearly dues must be pretty high"...Though I was fairly certain I could afford it whatever it would be.  Turns out dues for our lodge are $90.00 / year.  I was a bit surprised that they were that low and the lodge was concerned that $90 would prove to be a 'burden."
> 
> I get the feeling the dues have been at this level for a long time, and perhaps when put in place would have been considered expensive.  The financial situation in our lodge, however, make is very difficult to suggest raising the dues.  We have substantial funds in reserve and even tough we are currently spending significant amounts on building improvement, there is no real justification to raise dues.  Our programs and our building do need improvements, but they are systematically being done well within the resources we have at hand and more money wouldn't make them go faster.
> 
> I think one of the biggest obstacles to improvement of the Lodge, either physically or in programs is resistance to change, no lack of funds in our case.



Great points there. Certainly a cultural change is in need a lot of times. Unfortunately, a lot of lodges are keeping their dues low, losing members due to lack of interest in the area anymore. Likely because,  as you said, that culture needs to change.


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## Keith C (Aug 7, 2017)

I had another thought relating to the value of 'elitism', and that is the "Traditional Observant Lodge" movement.  I think these lodges do offer some level of 'elitism' in how they 'step up' the Blue Lodge experience and this does move more in the direction that the linked article describes.  I am not sure of the dues structure of the local TO lodge vs other lodges in the area, so I can't comment on whether or not a higher dues is in place, but some of the other guards to the West are there.


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## CLewey44 (Aug 7, 2017)

Keith C said:


> I had another thought relating to the value of 'elitism', and that is the "Traditional Observant Lodge" movement.  I think these lodges do offer some level of 'elitism' in how they 'step up' the Blue Lodge experience and this does move more in the direction that the linked article describes.  I am not sure of the dues structure of the local TO lodge vs other lodges in the area, so I can't comment on whether or not a higher dues is in place, but some of the other guards to the West are there.



I have a friend who is a member of a TO lodge and their dues were higher but not much. They also had PHA, 'normal' BL, OES, Demolay, Rainbow etc all out of one lodge building so with all those other 'bodies' that allows them to keep it on the lower end since they share it with so many other groups.


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## Bloke (Aug 7, 2017)

Keith C said:


> ..., but they are systematically being done well within the resources we have at hand and more money wouldn't make them go faster..



Are those resources increasing or diminishing?


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## Bloke (Aug 7, 2017)

LK600 said:


> I'm fairly new so I can only give my perspective from that point of view. ....



An important perspective !


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## CLewey44 (Aug 7, 2017)

It is a very important perspective actually.


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## BullDozer Harrell (Aug 7, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> I have a friend who is a member of a TO lodge and their dues were higher but not much. They also had PHA, 'normal' BL, OES, Demolay, Rainbow etc all out of one lodge building so with all those other 'bodies' that allows them to keep it on the lower end since they share it with so many other groups.


What's normal Blue Lodge???


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## Ripcord22A (Aug 7, 2017)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> What's normal Blue Lodge???


Assume he means nonTO lodge

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## CLewey44 (Aug 7, 2017)

I guess I should have written out 'non-TO/non-PHA/' to be clear but 'normal' was shorter and I think most people understand what I meant. Not a knock on either and they are just as much Masonry....depending on who you ask.


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## Brother JC (Aug 7, 2017)

My Cali TO lodge is $300+per capita (~46) a year. My UGLE lodge was £83 ($106.64) this year.
There is another TO lodge in the vicinity that charges $1,000 for the Degrees.


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## CLewey44 (Aug 8, 2017)

Brother JC said:


> My Cali TO lodge is $300+per capita (~46) a year. My UGLE lodge was £83 ($106.64) this year.
> There is another TO lodge in the vicinity that charges $1,000 for the Degrees.



Have you visited the $1000 one? I wonder how nice it is. They have a website, bro?


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## Keith C (Aug 8, 2017)

Bloke said:


> Are those resources increasing or diminishing?



Talking with Brothers who have been in the lodge for some time, they have been pretty much the same over many years.  A deliberate decision was made to make some expenditures for repairs and renovations to the building that will cause the monies in reserve to be reduced, but the funds that exist are such that we could buy another building and still have a reserve left.  

So, with 'normal' operation the lodge has worked on the dues collected, and the money just sat there.


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## Bloke (Aug 8, 2017)

Keith C said:


> Talking with Brothers who have been in the lodge for some time, they have been pretty much the same over many years.  A deliberate decision was made to make some expenditures for repairs and renovations to the building that will cause the monies in reserve to be reduced, but the funds that exist are such that we could buy another building and still have a reserve left.
> 
> So, with 'normal' operation the lodge has worked on the dues collected, and the money just sat there.



Thanks. Just remember, a dollar today is not worth what it will be in a decade. If the money is just sitting there, then you're going backwards (BUT KUDOS for having a lot of it  )


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## Bloke (Aug 8, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> Have you visited the $1000 one? I wonder how nice it is. They have a website, bro?


We have a $1K PA lodge.... but their web site is terrible, but I know they have a Facebook page if you want to reach out.
A pic of a entree at dinner there can be found here http://www.lodgedevotion.net/devoti...odges/lodge-of-the-golden-fleece-uglv-2011-03

Last time I went there, members were feeding me scotch and cigars


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## Warrior1256 (Aug 8, 2017)

LK600 said:


> It should not be easy to join, but there should be a clear path for all to potentially be able to join. Instant gratification is not what we are about, and accepting Lodges with cracks on the walls and yellowed 1950's drop ceilings shouldn't be acceptable


Agreed!


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## Brother JC (Aug 8, 2017)

CLewey44 said:


> Have you visited the $1000 one? I wonder how nice it is. They have a website, bro?



I haven't. Their website is www.prometheuslodge.com and they meet at the University Club of San Francisco www.uclubsf.org


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