# How important is recognition?



## bupton52 (Dec 26, 2012)

Exactly how important is recognition vs regularity? Unfortunately, the GL of GA and eight other states don't recognize PHA, but they are just as regular as any other. There are several bretheren that are misinformed when it comes to these matters. Your thoughts?


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## crono782 (Dec 26, 2012)

My thoughts. Recognition is a means of enforcing regularity. How do you keep other jurisdictions from changing their definition of what they consider "regular" (or at least from straying too far from the status quo)? The threat of rescinding recognition. I think they inevitably go hand-in-hand.
Does that sound correct? :001_huh:


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## tomasball (Dec 26, 2012)

The commission on information for recognition, which is a committee of the Conference of Grand Masters of North America, defines regularity as involving three principles.  "Legitimacy of origin" means that a body is directly descended from either the United Grand Lodge of England (or it's two predecessors) or the Grand Lodge of Scotland or the Grand Lodge of Ireland.  "Adherence to the ancient landmarks" is a little more nebulous, since there is no universal agreement on what the "landmarks" of freemasonry are.  But the "set in stone" points are belief in deity, the volume of sacred law on the altar, "men only", and the prohibition of discussion of politics and religion.  

The third principle is "territorial exclusivity".  Respect the sovereignty of other grand bodies, and don't set up lodges in their territory without their permission.

That is how the Conference of Grand Masters of North America defines "regularity".  Obviously, there are "grand lodges" out there that don't agree that one or more of those principles is important.  For instance, the Grand Orient of France certainly considers itself regular, even though "mainstream" grand lodges do not, primarily because the GO doesn't require the belief in God.  The "Most Worshipful Mount Carmel Grand Lodge" in Austin considers itself regular, although nearly nobody else does.


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## widows son (Dec 26, 2012)

I feel that if PHA lodges follow the requirements set out by the committee of GMs of N. America then there should be no issue of regularity, or visitation. I personally feel that, black, white and any other race of men who are masons should sit in the same lodge. I know that in the early days tolerance wasn't practiced, which is why we have PHA, but now a days there shouldn't be an issue. Unless they are operating in a way which would cause them to be irregular.


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## ess1113 (Dec 26, 2012)

Yes, Recognition is important for several reasons.  It provides legitimacy and heritage.  It is a form of pedigree that you meet the standard among grand lodges and are accepted into the fold.  

At this years Grand Lodge of Texas, the Fraternal Recognition committee reported on the constant desire to share and extend recognition to Grand Lodge of Texas Prince Hall (hope thats the correct title).  It is still a work in progress but its interesting.  This year the committee brought up issues involving territoral jurisdiction involving the Grand Lodge Ivory Coast.  
Fraternal recognition will always remain a personal desire of mine and I truly believe that someday this will be possible.

Standards adopted for use by The Commission for Information for Recognition of the Conference of Grand Masters of Masons in 
North America in the 1950's:
I. Legitimacy of Origin
That the Grand Lodge requesting recognition has been lawfully formed by at least three just and duly constituted Lodges, or that it 
has been legally recognized by a Grand Lodge in fraternal relation with the Grand Lodge from whom recognition has been requested.
That such Grand Lodge must be "under the tongue of good repute" for an adequate number of years before such fraternal recognition is 
extended. An existence for such a period as satisfies the Grand Lodge whose recognition is sought, during which time the highest standards of 
the Craft have been practised [sic] by the applicant Grand Lodge, may cure what would otherwise be considered illegitimacy of origin.

II. Territorial Sovereignty
That it is an independent, self-governing organization, having Masonic authority within the governmental territory over which it assumes 
jurisdiction -- whether Country, Province, State or other political subdivision; or else shares such exclusive territorial jurisdiction with another 
Grand Lodge by mutual consent and/or treaty.

III. Ancient Landmarks
That it subscribes fundamentally, ritualistically and in all its relations to the Ancient Landmarks, Customs and Usages of the Craft. 
This requires adherence to the following:
1. Monotheism -- An unalterable and continuing belief in God.
2. The Volume of The Sacred Law -- an essential part of the furniture of the Lodge.
3. Prohibition of the discussion of Religion and Politics.


Grand Lodge of Texas


Art. 18. (18). Recognition Criteria of Other Grand Lodges. Fraternal recognition may be extended to a Grand Lodge when it appears 
to the satisfaction of this Grand Lodge, a Committee having first considered and reported thereon:

1. That such a Grand Body has been formed lawfully by at least three just and duly constituted Lodges, or that it has been legalized 
by a valid act issuing from the Grand Lodge of Texas, of from a Grand Body in fraternal relations with this Grand Lodge.

2. That it is an independent, self-governing, responsible organization with entire, undisputed and exclusive dogmatic 
and administrative authority over the Symbolic Lodges within its jurisdiction, and not in any sense whatever subject to, or dividing such 
authority with, a Supreme Council, or other Body claiming ritualistic or other supervision or control.

3. That it makes Masons of men only.

4. That it requires conformity to the following, which the Grand Lodge of Texas 
considers necessary in a Masonic Body:
A. Acknowledgment of a belief in God the Father of all men.
B. Secrecy.
C. The Symbolism of Operative Masonry.
D. The division of Symbolic Masonry into the three degrees in Texas.
E. The legend of the Third Degree.
F. That its dominant purposes are charitable, benevolent, educational and religious, and that it excludes controversial politics 
and sectarian religion from all activities under its auspices.
G. The Sacred Book of the Divine Law, Chief among the Three Great Lights of masonry, indispensably present in the Lodges while at work.

5. That it occupies exclusively its territorial jurisdiction or else shares the same with another by mutual consent; and that it does not presume  to extend its authority, or presume to establish Lodges in, a territory occupied by a lawful Grand Lodge, without the expressed assent of such supreme governing Masonic Body.


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## chrmc (Dec 26, 2012)

It's an interesting question. To the individual mason in his search for light I guess you can say that recognition isn't that important, but for a lodge or a grand lodge it is everything. 
Like it or not recognition is how masonic jurisdictions have historically dealt with each other, and it is currently the main form of "inter lodge jurisdiction" that we have. 

With regards to the matters of PHA recognition the matter gets even trickier. I think it is hard talk about PHA without considering the historical reason why they came about, and in that sense I personally feel that these lodge as just as regular as any other (though I could hope that we'd one day see all of them gathered under just one grand lodge that had room for all). 
That being said it also mean that if PHA is as recognized and regular as all other lodges they must abide by the same rules, landmarks, forms and territorial boundaries as all other lodges.


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## THurse (Dec 26, 2012)

Brothers, this is exactly what I mean, having fresh ideas to changing for the same alliances, regardless of separate governing bodies, through different jurisdictions, worldwide.


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## tomasball (Dec 26, 2012)

THurse said:


> Brothers, this is exactly what I mean, having fresh ideas to changing for the same alliances, regardless of separate governing bodies, through different jurisdictions, worldwide.



I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you just said.


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## THurse (Dec 27, 2012)

What I mean is in our studies and the different posts that I have read from, their are so many different opinions of different lodges and how the should perform and dress. What i mean is everyone does have new ideas to bring that may be beneficial to some but not others I'am keeping my mind fresh in trying to understand, because the words that I love is free and accepted.


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## widows son (Dec 27, 2012)

Lol THurse, there isn't a negative bone in your body. I love it. But I totally understand what you mean. Fresh new ideas keeps things running smoothly. Even in an unchangeable organization such as freemasonry, new and fresh ideas are needed, especially in an ever changing, ever evolving western society.


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## widows son (Dec 27, 2012)

But any good standing PHA mason, is my brother, and any good standing man is my friend.


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## widows son (Dec 27, 2012)

And there's no difference between the two


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## THurse (Dec 27, 2012)

This is exactly true Brother, Widows Son. This is how I feel. We are all Brothers, that is working for positivity.


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## Bro_Vick (Dec 28, 2012)

widows son said:


> And there's no difference between the two



Than why have two regular and fully recognized Grand Lodges in the same jurisdiction?  The Europeans are constantly harping on this point, and have half a point.

S&F,
-Bro Vick


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## tomasball (Dec 28, 2012)

sooo...recognition vs. regularity?  Why is regularity important?  The PHA lodges don't consider the "National Compact Prince Hall Origin" lodges regular, but the PHO lodges certainly consider themselves regular.  The only difference is that PHA doesn't "recognize" PHO.  EVERYONE considers themselves "regular".  It's only when you want to interact with bodies outside your circle that recognition matters.


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## widows son (Dec 28, 2012)

I don't agree with the fact that there is a factional divide between white and black masons and that they are under their prospective GL. It's not the 1700s anymore. I think it's great that prince hall did what he did for colored masons, and there is a tradition there, however in a day in age when tolerance has prevailed, the need for two sets of freemasony: one for blacks and one for white shouldn't even be a topic. If we are to lead by example, and there is a divide, what kind of example is that setting?


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## crono782 (Dec 28, 2012)

I totally agree with WS above, but here's my $.02: In this day and age, there should be no problem with having a single "unsegregated" Masonry, HOWEVER I totally understand that both have a deep and rich history and set of traditions and not all of those could be preserved if one were to be absorbed into the other or merged or what have you. In some areas tolerance may still be an issue, but in the areas where it isn't an issue, I would think neither side wants to lose their unique identity and that would be a holdback even after the issue of acceptance is quashed. I think that is a much deeper societal issue though and not unique to Freemasonry.


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## widows son (Dec 28, 2012)

Maybe all can be recognized and keep their traditions, and still be under one fraternal roof


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## Ecossais (Dec 28, 2012)

The problem stems from the fact that regular Freemasonry has no copyright on the word "Freemasonry," or it's several related words ("Masonry," "Masonic," "Mason," etc.) For that reason, virtually anyone can create a bogus Masonic lodge or a bogus Grand Lodge. Three college boys can find a Duncan's ritual in a used bookstore, buy some regalia over the Internet and create a bogus Masonic lodge, or several Masonic lodges, in a dorm room or on the Internet. In fact, they have done so. 

This does not mean that they are part of the worldwide network of Masonic grand lodges that all descend from the original grand lodges of the British Isles. They are what we call "irregular" or even "clandestine." They write their own rules, often admitting women and/or atheists, etc. Some may even require that members be of a particular religion or religious denomination. Some may even rewrite the degrees so that they do not include the Hiramic Legend.

There are, at one count, fifteen irregular and unrecognized bogus Masonic grand lodges in Texas. They are all very small, and often have no more than one or two lodges. One such bogus grand lodge, located in Houston, even used Grand Master Tommy Griffin's 2008 Masonic logo on their website, as if it was their own.

In the past, regular grand lodges have developed a fairly simple set of "Standards of Recognition" to determine if other grand lodges have 1.) Regularity of Origin, 2.) Regularity of Practice, and 3.) Autonomy.

The Phylaxis Society (the Prince Hall research society) has a website for "The Joseph A. Walkes, Jr., Commission on Bogus Masonic Practices." You can view this at http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/index.php , and I would encourage everyone to take a look at it. 

The Phylaxis Society has posted a very concise article on "What Makes a Grand Lodge Regular?" You can see that at http://www.thephylaxis.org/bogus/regularity.php .

The Prince Hall Masons at The Phylaxis Society have done a really good job of keeping track of bogus (irregular grand lodges) and there are many. These bogus grand lodges, of which many are nothing more than elaborate pyramid scams, divert many good men away from regular Freemasonry.


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## THurse (Dec 28, 2012)

All as one Free and Accepted.


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## widows son (Jan 3, 2013)

Look up Rui Gabirro and you'll see why regularity and recognition are important.


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## THurse (Jan 4, 2013)

Under the different bodies, their are differences, but my question is how can you  tell who is who? I'am for free and accepted and unity. This is not the past, like Brother widow, has said. This is a difficult task, but could be achieved one day.


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## widows son (Jan 4, 2013)

Well this rui guy blatantly mocks the UGLE so his group obviously not recognized. Most unrecognized GL's have degrees that aren't a part of anything


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## widows son (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm for unity as well but these guys see freemasonry either as a political tool or have taken what it is completely out of context.


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## tomasball (Jan 4, 2013)

THurse said:


> how can you  tell who is who?



You can tell who is recognized by mainstream freemasonry by looking in the "List of Lodges Masonic" published by Pantograph.  Simple as that.


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## tomasball (Jan 4, 2013)

As for unity...the community of mainstream grand lodges is united because they not only all have the same pedigree, but because they all agree on what they consider fundamentals.  Other grand lodges, being sovereign, may not care to buy into our system of landmarks...some want to admit women, some want to admit atheists, some don't believe in territorial exclusivity, some haze their candidates.  That's their business.  Nobody says they have to be part of the mainstream.


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## widows son (Jan 4, 2013)

But they also give us a bad name, which is not ok


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## Bill Lins (Jan 4, 2013)

widows son said:


> But they also give us a bad name, which is not ok



True, but there isn't much, besides withholding recognition, that we can do about it.


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## widows son (Jan 4, 2013)

Unfortunately


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## THurse (Jan 5, 2013)

Clandestine, Lodges, that are not real, but if you are apart of a new lodge which is supported by your Grand Lodge, could be looked upon as the same. PHO, is considered to be Ex PHA members, that has opened their own Lodges, I have read that PHO, also means the Original, PHA, members. You can look through the list which is true, but my point is, their is so much finger pointing. How can you really tell who is who? I'am pretty sure that some of you Brothers, may have run across an imposter without knowing it. This destroys the name of  Regular legitimate Lodges, that are expanding.


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## Eagle (Jan 5, 2013)

I personally noticed a big difference between PHA and Scottish Rights here in Charlotte.  This city is bias to almost everything.  PHA masons get looked at like they arent masons by majority of our white lodges here.  You can try speaking to a white lodge member here and they might look at you like your crazy.  Me personally, I recognize all my brethren no matter the race because we are all the same.  As long as you are doing everything correctly, you should be recognized the same.  Recognition means alot to me!


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## widows son (Jan 5, 2013)

The thing that makes it difficult is when these lodges follow the same landmarks as we do. The regular grand lodge of England claims to do so. But when you look further they rework out dated discarded degrees, use the craft for political aims, and fabricate lies. So to me it doesn't matter if they choose to follow the landmarks, their conduct and behavior as "masons" is what matters and they are giving the craft a bad name


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## Ecossais (Feb 22, 2013)

Let's just do away with the whole concept of regularity. Then, as soon as we do, I can go online, order a bunch of aprons and regalia, and start selling degrees. I live near a big college campus where there are thousands of college students who would pay several hundred dollars to receive all three degrees in one day. I could do it in the conference room at the Holiday Inn, and then hand out dues cards to everyone before the day is out. I could make myself the Grand Master for life, and I'd be set to start taking in the big bucks. Yeah. Let's do away with regularity.


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