# York or Scottish Rite?



## Mel Knight (Nov 8, 2015)

I've heard some Mason's stop at Knights Templar because you're required to be a Christian. I know this is a silly question but do you technically have to believe in Jesus to be a Christian? 

I'm not sure if I should go the Scottish or York route!


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## Brother JC (Nov 8, 2015)

Mel Knight said:


> I know this is a silly question but do you technically have to believe in Jesus to be a Christian?


Well, you have to recite the Apostolic Oath, so it would certainly help.


Mel Knight said:


> I'm not sure if I should go the Scottish or York route!


Why go either? Be a Mason, support your lodge, focus on the teachings and the Craft itself.


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## Ressam (Nov 8, 2015)

Mel Knight said:


> I've heard some Mason's stop at Knights Templar because you're required to be a Christian. I know this is a silly question but do you technically have to believe in Jesus to be a Christian?
> 
> I'm not sure if I should go the Scottish or York route!


I'd choose -- York Rite! The American Rite!
What do you mean by sayin' -- "technically believe"?


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## Warrior1256 (Nov 8, 2015)

I will be going through the Knights Templar Order next month and The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite later this month. I am doing both but then I am a Christian so will have no problem with a Christian oath.


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## Jason A. Mitchell (Nov 8, 2015)

http://www.arslatomorum.com/which-rite-is-right/


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## Mel Knight (Nov 9, 2015)

Ressam said:


> I'd choose -- York Rite! The American Rite!
> What do you mean by sayin' -- "technically believe"?



Meaning can I just respect Jesus words and teachings without solely physically believing in him. I'm not sure if that made sense lol 

For example: I truly enjoy Trismegistus work, but does it mean that I believe he actually existed? I'm not sure.


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## Mel Knight (Nov 9, 2015)

Brother JC said:


> Well, you have to recite the Apostolic Oath, so it would certainly help.
> 
> Why go either? Be a Mason, support your lodge, focus on the teachings and the Craft itself.



Why not?


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## Zaden (Nov 10, 2015)

This actually came up as a topic of discussion among some of the brothers who are York Rite during the Scottish Rite Reunion last weekend. Some of them pointed out that, in Texas, at least, one is only required to swear to defend the Christian faith. Then, another brother brought up a phrase in the Order of Malta, that has one referring to holding a belief that "the" savior of the world was crucified etc. or something to that effect. Rendering the Knights Templar part of the York Rite technically prohibited for non-Christians unless you use some major rationalizations. It was also pointed out that this is not the case in Canada. 

  That said, the other bodies of the YR are open to all (regular) masons of any faith. Personally, the complete openness to faiths, and the depth of the philosophy in the Scottish Rite were what drew me most to it. I honestly have no real interest in pursuing the YR.

Both rites have a Royal Arch degree, both have "Templar" degrees/orders.


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## Ressam (Nov 10, 2015)

Mel Knight said:


> Meaning can I just respect Jesus words and teachings without solely physically believing in him.



And that's, actually, enough! What you're sayin'.
We may have not to believe that he was "physically" livin'.
The important thing is -- just tryin' to not to break Law, Commandments.


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## MarkR (Nov 11, 2015)

The web site of the Grand Encampment of the United States says, in several places (FAQ, online petition, for example) that you must believe in the Christian religion.  Not be willing to defend it, not just respect his words and teachings without believing that he physically existed (I don't see how you can do that, but whatever,) but believe in the Christian religion.


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## mrm113 (Nov 11, 2015)

Brother JC said:


> Well, you have to recite the Apostolic Oath, so it would certainly help.
> 
> Why go either? Be a Mason, support your lodge, focus on the teachings and the Craft itself.



Stopping at blue lodge is completely fine, but its like reading a book and stopping less than half way without knowing the ending or even why things happened the way they did. In blue lodge alot of things are said in ritual that aren't explained or even spoken about again. For instance.....wages. York rite tries to follow masonry as it was done  centeries ago. As a master mason you are required to recieve your wages. Well in york rite you receive your wages and its fully explained. I see York rite as the college for masonry and Scottish rite the icing on the cake. S.R. has huge gala's and meetings giving you a chance to bond with other brothers while experiencing a classy meal with you and yours.

Fraternally yours, Sir knight Marvin E Williams Jr sublime prince of the royal secret 32°


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## Mel Knight (Nov 11, 2015)

I don't follow nor practice any particular religion. I don't have any issues I'm wondering if the order would have an issue with I.


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## GKA (Nov 11, 2015)

To the OP, you may find it useful to revisit the definition of Christian


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## GKA (Nov 11, 2015)

One more point, there is a big difference between being interested in something and believing in it, call it a form of faith.
As you search for your true path, you will encounter many teachings, some will work for you, others will not, it's not a matter of truth, it's more a matter of application


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## dfreybur (Nov 13, 2015)

Mel Knight said:


> I don't follow nor practice any particular religion. I don't have any issues I'm wondering if the order would have an issue with I.



One of my friends was in a similar situation.  He phrased it "I don't believe in churches".  A year of lunch discussions later I was pleased to deliver his petition with my signature on it to a lodge near his home.  At some point about a year after he was raised he had come to enough peace with churches that he became active in his local YR bodies.

This was in California where to go through the Commander degree one only needs to swear to defend the Christian faith.  The brother who obligated me on my third is a practicing Buddhist who was willing to swear that.  Discussing with him the process he went through to decide that is a mind expanding experience.  No idea if I agree with him on his process and decision but I'm here to serve my lodges not to agree with people.


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## Ranger Morris (Nov 14, 2015)

If you don't believe in Christ as God, then don't go Scottish Rite. Personally, I am a devoted Christian, and belong to both Rites. That being said, I enjoy the Scottish Rite more by leaps and bounds!


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## Ranger Morris (Nov 14, 2015)

Oops. I meant York Rite at the beginning!


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 14, 2015)

Ranger Morris said:


> If you don't believe in Christ as God, then don't go Scottish Rite. Personally, I am a devoted Christian, and belong to both Rites. That being said, I enjoy the Scottish Rite more by leaps and bounds!


Christ is not God....hes the son of God


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## Ranger Morris (Nov 15, 2015)

By name alone, a Christian is a Christ follower!


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## Glen Cook (Nov 15, 2015)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Christ is not God....hes the son of God[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:
> ...


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## Ripcord22A (Nov 15, 2015)

Hence y i didnt respond to him


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## Ranger Morris (Nov 15, 2015)

God is God, Christ is God, and The Holy Spirit is God. This is what is called the Trinity. Water, ice, and vapor, are all h2O. Same thing. Not trying to argue this point as it is just Truth. In Society today, we are surely lacking Truth. One needs only look at the Word of God to find it!


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## GKA (Nov 15, 2015)

For your consideration


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## GrandJojo (Nov 17, 2015)

I am not a Christian, and yet still a York Rite and Scottish Rite Mason. The Christian Faith is not required, just Faith in a Supreme Being. There are Orders in Belgium, where the Christian Faith is required - the Red Cross of Constantine, the Royal Order of Scotland - and the Knight Templar might too.

I've been taught that Freemasonry is universal, that Good men of (mostly) any faith may be accepted. My opinion on Orders that require a specific Faith from its candidates, is that those Orders should reconsider the requirement and Oath of that order, if it recruiting candidates from Blue Lodges. It's one thing to ask to defend Christian values, it is an entirely other thing to require to believe in the Trinity.

Imagine if there was a Regular Masonic Order where they only allowed Muslim Brethren to join.


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## GKA (Nov 17, 2015)

Such a Order would make me uncomfortable, for so many reasons


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## Glen Cook (Nov 17, 2015)

GrandJojo said:


> I am not a Christian, and yet still a York Rite and Scottish Rite Mason. The Christian Faith is not required, just Faith in a Supreme Being. There are Orders in Belgium, where the Christian Faith is required - the Red Cross of Constantine, the Royal Order of Scotland - and the Knight Templar might too.
> 
> I've been taught that Freemasonry is universal, that Good men of (mostly) any faith may be accepted. My opinion on Orders that require a specific Faith from its candidates, is that those Orders should reconsider the requirement and Oath of that order, if it recruiting candidates from Blue Lodges. It's one thing to ask to defend Christian values, it is an entirely other thing to require to believe in the Trinity.
> 
> Imagine if there was a Regular Masonic Order where they only allowed Muslim Brethren to join.


You indicate you are a York Rite Mason, but not a member of KT?

There are GLs with which your GL is in amity which are Christian only. Many not Muslim only?


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## GrandJojo (Nov 17, 2015)

Right - I am not a member of KT, but I am a Mark Mason, a member of the Royal Arch Mariners (this is the District of Belgium for England) -and a Royal Arch Mason (Belgium has its own Grand Chapter and only does one degree). None of these degrees require the Christian Faith. The KT is not practiced in Belgium (there are chapters in the Netherlands and France, some just accross the border which are attended by Belgian Brethren). We have something equivalent - the Scottish Rectified Rite - which is Chivalrous and Christian themed. The SRR requires its candidates to defend Christian values - values which I find difficult not to defend.

We are in amity with Sweden and Denmark - although Denmark has created a sub/provincial Grand Lodge where non-Christians may apply. There is the other issue of practicing degrees other than the first three - they go up to twelve, and all this is regulated by the same Grand Master. This violates one of the criteria for Regularity set forth by the United Grand Lodge of England - but they recognize Sweden and Denmark nevertheless. The Royal families of Sweden and Denmark have ties with the Royal family of Great Britain.

Personally, I don't feel this is right - but there are historical and political explanations. It might also be something that is very difficult to change - due to the very nature of our organization.


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## dfreybur (Nov 17, 2015)

GrandJojo said:


> Imagine if there was a Regular Masonic Order where they only allowed Muslim Brethren to join.



If it were an appendent body parallel in some way to the Commandery I'd not have any issue with the group.

If it were a lodge or jurisdiction conferring the first 3 degrees, they would have to be so old they predate our universality like Sweden.  (all sorts of caveats about the Swedish Rite here).


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## GrandJojo (Nov 17, 2015)

Freemasonry unites those that might otherwise have remained at a perpetual distance.

I know, I know  - quoting ritual is cheap, just like quoting scripture, it can be used in favor or against any argument.

I have in fact no problems with the KTs, The Royal Order of Scotland, or many other Orders - but if something is to be "Masonic", or recruit from a Regular Grand Lodge, or claim a Masonic connection - I still feel it should adhere to the principals of its base.

But that's just me and my 2 cents.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 17, 2015)

GrandJojo said:


> Right - I am not a member of KT, but I am a Mark Mason, a member of the Royal Arch Mariners (this is the District of Belgium for England) -and a Royal Arch Mason (Belgium has its own Grand Chapter and only does one degree). None of these degrees require the Christian Faith. The KT is not practiced in Belgium (there are chapters in the Netherlands and France, some just accross the border which are attended by Belgian Brethren). We have something equivalent - the Scottish Rectified Rite - which is Chivalrous and Christian themed. The SRR requires its candidates to defend Christian values - values which I find difficult not to defend.
> 
> We are in amity with Sweden and Denmark - although Denmark has created a sub/provincial Grand Lodge where non-Christians may apply. There is the other issue of practicing degrees other than the first three - they go up to twelve, and all this is regulated by the same Grand Master. This violates one of the criteria for Regularity set forth by the United Grand Lodge of England - but they recognize Sweden and Denmark nevertheless. The Royal families of Sweden and Denmark have ties with the Royal family of Great Britain.
> 
> Personally, I don't feel this is right - but there are historical and political explanations. It might also be something that is very difficult to change - due to the very nature of our organization.


In dealing with American Masons, claiming you are a York Rite Mason might well cause confusion.  Many will think you are a member of Royal Arch, Cryptic and possibly  KT. I think your point is that your symbolic lodge uses a Preston Webb ritual.


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## GrandJojo (Nov 17, 2015)

I'm actually giving a lecture next week explaining just how confusing the York Rite is in Europe ! It can mean different things depending on the jurisdiction, but I blame the French for this most


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## coachn (Nov 17, 2015)

GKA said:


> For your considerationView attachment 4861



More to perpend!


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## Bloke (Nov 17, 2015)

I would say a significant number of Masons here in Victoria Australia have never heard of York and Scottish Rite. We have many of the degrees - but people skip between what many Americans represent as two different streams.

Degrees worked here are listed here 
http://www.lodgedevotion.net/devoti...ic-Orders-Worked-by-Victorian-Masons-200904-1


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## dfreybur (Nov 17, 2015)

Glen Cook said:


> In dealing with American Masons, claiming you are a York Rite Mason might well cause confusion.



Most American brothers have not seen/read the SR scripts for the first 3 degrees and may not even be aware there exist SR scripts for the first 3 degrees.  As a result most American brothers are not aware that they went through and learned a version of the ritual that is more closely related to the YR system than to the SR system.  The exceptions being brothers who have attended degrees in Louisiana or lodges that still use Louisiana ritual which is descended from the SR branch of our family.

The Scottish Rite is actually French and that's why Louisiana.  The York Rite is really the American Rite.  The rest of the YR degrees are built on the Preston ritual so parentage of degrees isn't the same in the two systems.  Calling it YR derived isn't accurate.  More like degrees that YR is derived from.


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## GKA (Nov 17, 2015)

I love that diagram coach


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## coachn (Nov 18, 2015)

dfreybur said:


> ...More like degrees that YR is derived from.


yup


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## chrmc (Nov 18, 2015)

GrandJojo said:


> I'm actually giving a lecture next week explaining just how confusing the York Rite is in Europe ! It can mean different things depending on the jurisdiction, but I blame the French for this most



I'd love to read that, if it is possible to share afterwards.


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## Glen Cook (Nov 18, 2015)

GrandJojo said:


> I'm actually giving a lecture next week explaining just how confusing the York Rite is in Europe ! It can mean different things depending on the jurisdiction, but I blame the French for this most


Always acceptable to blame the French


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