# Recognition



## BroBook (Jun 7, 2016)

Greetings Brothers: I need some aide, my Grand Lodge just started a University of Instruction, I went to the inaugural classes, we have to do a research project. For my subject I picked " Grand lodges that don't recognize PHA " . I know who they are I need some assurance as to why. Is there a site, that would help ? 


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## Ripcord22A (Jun 7, 2016)

phoenix masonry or the phlaxis society.  Also go to those GLs websites and see if they have GM edict or something in their bylaws about it.


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## dfreybur (Jun 8, 2016)

http://bessel.org/masrec/phachart.htm
http://bessel.org/masrec/phamap.htm

Unfortunately the site is no longer under maintenance.  It tells one side of the who recognizes story so it gives doubly incomplete answers to your questions.

I think what you need is to look up both sides of our family in states that don't have current local recognition and find their history.  There have been rumors that GLofXX offered local recognition but MWPHGLofXX turned them down.  Finding out what really happened would be instructive.

We aren't supposed to contact foreign jurisdictions directly.  We are supposed to go through our own Grand Secretary office indirectly.  That's 18 parallel queries in 9 states to even find out what year to look in.

There's a loop hole to the contact rule - Nearly every jurisdiction has at least 1 Lodge of Research who do respond across jurisdictions.  That's 18 parallel quires that are at least direct.

The questions I would ask each Lodge of Research is something like this -

(Usual introductions and fraternal greetings)

I'm doing a research project on the history of PHA recognition across the country.  To this end I wold like to know what years, if any, the subject have come up for vote at Annual Communication.  Then once I know the years to look into how I could purchase or borrow a copy of the Proceedings of the Annual Communications from your jurisdiction for those years.  I'm interested in years sending an offer of recognition came up for a vote and years that an offer for recognition arrived from the other local jurisdiction, if any.

In the long run I may want to contact brothers involved in those discussions for any discussion that is suitable to share outside of the jurisdiction.  Please let me know any of those Brothers are members of your Lodge of Research to see if it's possible to contact them directly, or if I have to channel the requests through our respective Grand Secretary offices.

(Usual thanks and fraternal regards)

The problem you'll face is that any discussion that does have to go through channels will fail because it would be between jurisdictions without recognition.  Being in PHA union GL in Florida any such request by you would fail on all of the GLofXX side.

That's why you want to contact Lodge of Research whose members deal with outsiders.  That's why you want to read copies of Proceedings which are allowed to the general public.

Bon chance my Brother


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## BroBook (Jun 8, 2016)

Thanks brothers, good and wholesome !!!


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## BullDozer Harrell (Jun 14, 2016)

Brother, you more than likely won't find a website that gives you the full story about both sides of the issue.
Yes it's a 2 sided issue.
It's not only that those GLof State have denied recognition to the concurrent PHGLofState, but there's also a refusal by PH Grand Lodges to grant recognition to their Fraternal counterparts.

You seem to be aware of this though but i say this perspective should serve your research well going into the matter.
Neither sides have been willing to reach out as of lately nor respond to each other so that this issue could be decided on the respective floor during Grand Lodge Sessions.

It probably hasn't been put to votes in awhile. Consider that for a perspective.



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## hanzosbm (Jun 30, 2016)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> Brother, you more than likely won't find a website that gives you the full story about both sides of the issue.
> Yes it's a 2 sided issue.
> It's not only that those GLof State have denied recognition to the concurrent PHGLofState, but there's also a refusal by PH Grand Lodges to grant recognition to their Fraternal counterparts.
> 
> ...



Agreed.  And then, to make matters worse, there's no guarantee that the explanation you receive will REALLY explain anything.  I'd be willing to bet that you'll run into a number of cases along the lines of "we don't think it's right at this time" without telling you why.  And honestly, I wouldn't blame them.  It's kind of a sensitive subject to actively decide NOT to recognize one's counterpart.  I recall a PH Mason telling me that upon a visit to mainstream lodge, they were surprised that the floor work was rather sloppy in comparison.  Now, I'm not saying that recognition would be withheld for that reason, but for the sake of example, let's say one branch decided not to recognize another due to the feeling that their ritual work and Masonic education were not up to snuff.  I doubt they would really want to put that in writing as the reason for fear of insulting those being denied.  In short, while I applaud your effort and would love to read the final paper, prepare yourself for the possibility of not getting as clear of answers as you might like.


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## Warrior1256 (Jun 30, 2016)

As I understand it here in Kentucky the two Grand Lodges recognize each other but we do not have visitation rights. No one has been able to give me the reason, only opinions.


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## king82 (Jun 30, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> As I understand it here in Kentucky the two Grand Lodges recognize each other but we do not have visitation rights. No one has been able to give me the reason, only opinions.


from what I here in ky next year they are voting on visitation both sides. Its in layover now. So we will know when they vote at GL


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jul 1, 2016)

If there are differences in the ritual and degree work, what does a visiting brother do ?


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## Brother JC (Jul 1, 2016)

Watch, learn, appreciate. Just like visiting any lodge outside your jurisdiction.


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## Dontrell Stroman (Jul 1, 2016)

Thank you for your answer, but I'm asking more in the sense does the visiting brother mimic what said lodge is doing or does he do what he was taught ?

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## hanzosbm (Jul 1, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Thank you for your answer, but I'm asking more in the sense does the visiting brother mimic what said lodge is doing or does he do what he was taught ?
> 
> Sent from my 831C using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Are you talking about from the sidelines?  If so, there's really not much you need to do, per se.  And while I haven't traveled extensively, I highly doubt that the due guards and signs differ much by jurisdiction.  If I'm mistaken, I'd be interested in hearing more about it.


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## Glen Cook (Jul 1, 2016)

hanzosbm said:


> Are you talking about from the sidelines?  If so, there's really not much you need to do, per se.  And while I haven't traveled extensively, I highly doubt that the due guards and signs differ much by jurisdiction.  If I'm mistaken, I'd be interested in hearing more about it.


Actually, the signs can vary. I recommend my guests attending my UGLE lodges use their own signs.


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## Warrior1256 (Jul 1, 2016)

king82 said:


> from what I here in ky next year they are voting on visitation both sides. Its in layover now. So we will know when they vote at GL


I'll be looking forward to the vote. I would like the opportunity to visit Brethren in PHA lodges.


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## hanzosbm (Jul 1, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Actually, the signs can vary. I recommend my guests attending my UGLE lodges use their own signs.


Good to know, thank you for the clarification.


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## dfreybur (Jul 1, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> If there are differences in the ritual and degree work, what does a visiting brother do?



There are often detailed differences in the signs, but some of them are subtle enough they are hard to notice and some are not well learned.  Toes pointing straight forward and straight out versus toes point out at 45 degrees.  Movements on a 3 count versus movements on a 5 count.  Squared movements versus rounded movements.  I am currently a member in 3 jurisdictions so I know 3 different ways to give signs.  Unless you are told what to look for you might not even see the differences.  Do it the way you learned in the jurisdiction you are a member of and if the Brothers notice a difference have fun comparing notes.

There are always differences in opening and closing but many don't matter.  If you visit a jurisdiction that gathers the pass, give it when asked.  Among my jurisdictions, one gathers the pass in 2 degrees, one gathers the pass in 1 degree, one gathers the pass in 0 degrees.  The word given is the same with plenty of mumbling and accent variation.

Some brothers like to discuss ritual variation others don't.  When some Brothers were interested I have demonstrated a scene from the second section that gets deleted in many states.  Or was it inserted in only a few states.


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## Bloke (Jul 1, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Thank you for your answer, but I'm asking more in the sense does the visiting brother mimic what said lodge is doing or does he do what he was taught ?



Use your own "secrets", mimic their words if you respond in a group in ritual. Your own signs are all you can prove and trying to mimic signs will just ring false and make you look suspicious. I love it when we get visitors with different signs and encourage demonstrations; some of them are very different, almost unrecognizable.


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## caution22113 (Jul 1, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Use your own "secrets", mimic their words if you respond in a group in ritual. Your own signs are all you can prove and trying to mimic signs will just ring false and make you look suspicious. I love it when we get visitors with different signs and encourage demonstrations; some of them are very different, almost unrecognizable.


Do as you would in your jurisdiction.


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## Ripcord22A (Jul 1, 2016)

When we visitied PHA i noticed that during prayer they placed their arms differently then us....we give the sign of the Good Shepard.  We still gave the sign of the Good Shepard.  Then when they came to our EA last month they did their thing during prayer and we ours.  Our passes are the same so when we went their, as they open on MM, it was all good.  Other than that not much someone from the sidelines to do.

My suggestion is the first time u go to a PHA lodge go as a group and let them know your coming.  Chances are that their GM has or will have been to ur GL and ViceVersa so that can make it easier if there's someone to vouch for the visitors...

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## Dontrell Stroman (Jul 1, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> When we visitied PHA i noticed that during prayer they placed their arms differently then us....we give the sign of the Good Shepard.  We still gave the sign of the Good Shepard.  Then when they came to our EA last month they did their thing during prayer and we ours.  Our passes are the same so when we went their, as they open on MM, it was all good.  Other than that not much someone from the sidelines to do.
> 
> My suggestion is the first time u go to a PHA lodge go as a group and let them know your coming.  Chances are that their GM has or will have been to ur GL and ViceVersa so that can make it easier if there's someone to vouch for the visitors...
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Sign of the good Sheppard ? Never heard of that.


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## Ripcord22A (Jul 1, 2016)

Arms crossed on the chest left over right fingers extended and joined

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## Dontrell Stroman (Jul 2, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Arms crossed on the chest left over right fingers extended and joined
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Interesting. I will have to look into that. This is new to me.


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## Warrior1256 (Jul 2, 2016)

Travelling Man91 said:


> Sign of the good Sheppard ? Never heard of that.


Neither have I. Maybe I've seen it and did not know what it was called.


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## Warrior1256 (Jul 2, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Arms crossed on the chest left over right fingers extended and joined
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Is this the same as in the Scottish Rite?


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## dfreybur (Jul 2, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> Is this the same as in the Scottish Rite?



AASR-SJ is the place I learned to us the arms in the Good Shepard position.  I've seen Brothers to that at blue lodge and have done so myself.  I've never seen it taught at blue lodge so I figured it was always a sign the Brother was an SR Brother.

Interesting variation that it is taught in at least one jurisdiction.


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## Brother JC (Jul 2, 2016)

It is taught in the First Degree in NM. After nearly three years away I still find myself "almost" doing it every time.


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## Ripcord22A (Jul 2, 2016)

Both OR and NM do it.  In Oregon its also the "Masonic Position of Attention".  Used when forming ranks for accepting official visitors and during obligations, masonic funerals and the like

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## BullDozer Harrell (Jul 2, 2016)

It's also called, the 'Grand Honor' but maybe we shouldn't speak anymore about it.



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## BullDozer Harrell (Jul 2, 2016)

Does the saying, "when in Rome, do as the Romans" mean anything?

As a visitor, you should observe and participate as a good guest to your host.
They already know that you're a visitor.

Nothing to sweat about.

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## BullDozer Harrell (Jul 2, 2016)

I am privileged to visit my brethren lodges of the MWGLofIL. 
It's always a cordial affair and it hasn't mattered yet that i might do things the Prince Hall way during a tyled meeting.
Nobody cares.






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## Brother JC (Jul 2, 2016)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> It's also called, the 'Grand Honor' but maybe we shouldn't speak anymore about it.


Grand Honours are a different thing, at least in my GLs.


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## Glen Cook (Jul 2, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> Both OR and NM do it.  In Oregon its also the "Masonic Position of Attention".  Used when forming ranks for accepting official visitors and during obligations, masonic funerals and the like
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Well, I wondered why those folks did so when visiting in UT.  Thanks


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## Glen Cook (Jul 2, 2016)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> It's also called, the 'Grand Honor' but maybe we shouldn't speak anymore about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910P using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Which jurisdiction calls it that?


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## Bloke (Jul 3, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Which jurisdiction calls it that?


UGVL has movements called "Grand Honours"


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## Glen Cook (Jul 3, 2016)

Bloke said:


> UGVL has movements called "Grand Honours"


Most jurisdictions do. I had not heard of the Sign of the Good Shepherd as one


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## Ripcord22A (Jul 3, 2016)

NMPHA uses it as part of theirs but theres mire to it than just that.

Funny thing about Grand Honors...in NM they only have 1 GH and use it in public and pvt.  In Oregon we have 2.  Public and pvt.  Public is the 3x3 and pvt is all 3 dg and Penalsigns (and just so no one jumps down my throat, that is written monitorially in our ritual so its not a secret)

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## Warrior1256 (Jul 3, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> AASR-SJ is the place I learned to us the arms in the Good Shepard position.  I've seen Brothers to that at blue lodge and have done so myself.  I've never seen it taught at blue lodge so I figured it was always a sign the Brother was an SR Brother.
> 
> Interesting variation that it is taught in at least one jurisdiction.


Thank you Brother. I joined the AASR this past November and was taught the folded arm left over right technique. I'm not sure if I was not informed what it was called or If I was told and just forgot. Was a lot to take in in two days.


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## Warrior1256 (Jul 3, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Most jurisdictions do. I had not heard of the Sign of the Good Shepherd as one


Same here. To me Grand Honors means only one thing, which I will not describe on an open forum.


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## Bloke (Jul 3, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> NMPHA uses it as part of theirs but theres mire to it than just that.
> 
> Funny thing about Grand Honors...in NM they only have 1 GH and use it in public and pvt.  In Oregon we have 2.  Public and pvt.  Public is the 3x3 and pvt is all 3 dg and Penalsigns (and just so no one jumps down my throat, that is written monitorially in our ritual so its not a secret)
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app



We only have 1 and will use it in when cowans are present


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## Glen Cook (Jul 4, 2016)

Many US GLs have two. The public grand honors are 3x3


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## Warrior1256 (Jul 4, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Many US GLs have two. The public grand honors are 3x3


This was the way that it was taught to me.


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## king82 (Jul 4, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> Is this the same as in the Scottish Rite?


I've seen it used at Columbia lodge during a mm degree. Didn't know what it was called to now. In ky


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## dfreybur (Jul 5, 2016)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> I am privileged to visit my brethren lodges of the MWGLofIL.



Back when we lived in Chicago metro I visited Pleiades one or twice so some of the Brothers are familiar.  I worked with Tim for a while, the Brother second from the right bottom row.

Astronomy nerd stuff on Pleiades.  The cluster is the seven sisters.  In Japan the cluster is called the sisters of industry.  The symbol that appears on Subaru cars is a depiction of the Pleiades.  Subaru is not a company that was founded to manufacture cars.  It was an alliance of seven existing industrial companies in Japan that came together to manufacture cars for the American market.  US and EU companies have tried this strategy over the years.  The Geo Metro was a "world car" made by a Subaru style alliance.  I think the best known example is the Smart car which is made by an alliance of companies that existed before the Smart car line was designed.  Subaru remains the most successful of the alliance style manufacturers.

Br JD reports two styles of Grand Honors.  Illinois matches the style he describes for New Mexico - The same in private or public.  California matches the style he describes for Oregon - Different versions for tiled or public.


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## Ripcord22A (Jul 5, 2016)

@dfreybur i love how you can take almost all topics and add some outside value to them.  There are a few members on here whos replys i anticipate reading and urs are 1 of them

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## Brother JC (Jul 6, 2016)

jdmadsenCraterlake211 said:


> NMPHA uses it as part of theirs but theres mire to it than just that.
> 
> Funny thing about Grand Honors...in NM they only have 1 GH and use it in public and pvt.


NM used to have two. I found them in an old Monitor in the tall locked cabinet in the library. No idea when they dropped the second one, though.


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## BullDozer Harrell (Jul 6, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> Which jurisdiction calls it that?


Illinois

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## Glen Cook (Jul 6, 2016)

BullDozer Harrell said:


> Illinois
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910P using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app


Hmm. Thanks.  I'll put it down to failing memory.


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## Ripcord22A (Jul 6, 2016)

Brother JC said:


> NM used to have two. I found them in an old Monitor in the tall locked cabinet in the library. No idea when they dropped the second one, though.


Ill take a look on saturday during the rendezvous.  Thanks 

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## dfreybur (Jul 6, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> The public grand honors are 3x3



My mother lodge Pasadena 272 in GLofCA tends to do a battery of 3x3 as a part of member honors.  Outgoing Master at installation, Mason of the Year award (named Hiram Award in California), 50 year pin, a group receiving a 25 year pin, being named to a GL post or retiring from that post, a Brother getting some big award at an appendent body.

You name it there we are all clapping like a drill team.  It's pretty impressive when well practiced like that with 30-50 guys standing straight and clapping slowly and loudly watching the east for the cadence.


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## Warrior1256 (Jul 6, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> It's pretty impressive when well practiced like that with 30-50 guys standing straight and clapping slowly and loudly watching the east for the cadence.


I'll bet!


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## Matt S (Jul 22, 2016)

The 2nd degree duegard in illinois differs slightly than the way we do it in az in illinois they due it as though they are holding something in left hand


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## Matt S (Jul 22, 2016)

Matt S said:


> The 2nd degree duegard in illinois differs slightly than the way we do it in az in illinois they due it as though they are holding something in left hand


The above was a reply to brother Hanzobm in case my response seemed out of place


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