# 2B1 ask 1.



## Warrior1256 (Oct 4, 2016)

Coming before the Grand Lodge of Kentucky this year is a proposal to allow members to actually recruit members instead of waiting for them to ask. Last night my mother lodge voted to support this proposal. I have mixed feelings but I cast my vote to support it at the meeting. As Grand Lodge will be held this month we won't have to wait long to learn the outcome.


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## cemab4y (Oct 4, 2016)

I am delighted to hear this! I have long supported asking worthy men to participate in Freemasonry. My mother lodge is Bowling Green #73, Bowling Green KY (F&AM). I hope the proposal passes!


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## Bloke (Oct 4, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> Coming before the Grand Lodge of Kentucky this year is a proposal to allow members to actually recruit members instead of waiting for them to ask. Last night my mother lodge voted to support this proposal. I have mixed feelings but I cast my vote to support it at the meeting. As Grand Lodge will be held this month we won't have to wait long to learn the outcome.


Yep, we can suggest a man becomes a Freemason and it's a good thing. Trust me, I just don't suggest joining to one and all...


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## Glen Cook (Oct 5, 2016)

Some jurisdictions do allow solicitation. UGLE: there is no objection to a neutrally worded approach being made to a man who could is considered a suitable candidate for Freemasonry. There can be no objection to his being reminded, once, that the approach was made. Information for the Guidance of Members of the Craft, 2013, page 36.

Utah: The definition of improper solicitation of a potential candidate is any proposal by a Mason that involves coercion or implied negative retaliation of any kind. 2012 Proceedings Page 39.

Minnesota rule:
Proper solicitation shall consist of the following: A man of sterling qualities may be approached and informed, but only once. He must be left to make his own decision. He should not be badgered

The current understanding in CA is that a mason could tell someone that they think that they would be a good mason.  After that, if asked, the mason may provide more information.


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## dfreybur (Oct 5, 2016)

Many jurisdictions allow Brothers to invite men, each with a slightly different set of rules.  I think most of these descend from the success of the "Brother to Brother" program in Pennsylvania started over a decade ago.


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## Brother_Steve (Oct 5, 2016)

I have no problem with it so long as the approach also carries the caveat that there is a process and a vote to get in.

It would be a shame to "invite" someone to a fraternity only to have them turned away by the ballot.


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## Bloke (Oct 5, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Many jurisdictions allow Brothers to invite men, each with a slightly different set of rules.  I think most of these descend from the success of the "Brother to Brother" program in Pennsylvania started over a decade ago.




Brother to Brother program.... sounds interesting.. tell me more...


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## Bloke (Oct 5, 2016)

(Please... how rude of me ! :/ )


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 5, 2016)

cemab4y said:


> I am delighted to hear this! I have long supported asking worthy men to participate in Freemasonry. My mother lodge is Bowling Green #73, Bowling Green KY (F&AM). I hope the proposal passes!


Me too!


Bloke said:


> Trust me, I just don't suggest joining to one and all...


Me either.


Brother_Steve said:


> I have no problem with it so long as the approach also carries the caveat that there is a process and a vote to get in.
> 
> It would be a shame to "invite" someone to a fraternity only to have them turned away by the ballot.


Well, really no worse than if he asked to join and was turned down.


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## Blake Bowden (Oct 6, 2016)

If you had asked me when I joined Freemasonry if I thought this was a good idea, I would of say yes. Now that I have a little experience under my belt, I would say no.


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## Brother_Steve (Oct 6, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> Me too!
> 
> Me either.
> 
> Well, really no worse than if he asked to join and was turned down.


The word "invite" has a connotation that there is no precondition that has to be fulfilled.

Now, imagine that you've been invited to a party, club or perhaps a fraternity. Then, as you're about to enter, a hand is placed on your chest and you're told to wait outside while everyone discusses you. Even the person that invited you has to cast a vote on your behalf.

So, again, I say that there is a difference in how you approach and present the offer. No disrespect, Brother.


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## dfreybur (Oct 6, 2016)

Bloke said:


> Brother to Brother program.... sounds interesting.. tell me more...



http://pamasons.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/FM_Aug13_web.pdf

Articles on the topic including the statue at the Gettysburg battle site.

http://www.mastermason.com/RichmondLodge412/Masonic Education/Friend to Friend.htm

This appears to be the "invitation" message used in Virginia.


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## truthseeker (Oct 6, 2016)

I think it is a really good ideal, I am in Alabama and our Grand Lodge was originally chartered from Kentucky, this just got voted in this year and is working great for me, I only ask people with which I feel and see have the utmost integrity, and nothing less. 


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 6, 2016)

Brother_Steve said:


> Now, imagine that you've been invited to a party, club or perhaps a fraternity. Then, as you're about to enter, a hand is placed on your chest and you're told to wait outside while everyone discusses you. Even the person that invited you has to cast a vote on your behalf.


I understand. However, I would most certainly tell the person that I invited that he would be subject to the ballot. that it is not a sure thing. But, knowing my Brothers in the lodge, anyone that I would invite would probably have a 99% chance. 


Brother_Steve said:


> No disrespect, Brother.


None taken Brother.


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## Brother JC (Oct 7, 2016)

Brother_Steve said:


> The word "invite" has a connotation that there is no precondition that has to be fulfilled.



The Brother in this situation should make it clear that this is an invitation "to Petition," not an invitation to "join the party."


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## Glen Cook (Oct 7, 2016)

Brother JC said:


> The Brother in this situation should make it clear that this is an invitation "to Perition," not an invitation to "join the party."


 I surely hope you meant petition, though a rejection may feel like perition.


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## Brother JC (Oct 7, 2016)

Auto-correct is a wonderful thing... *rolls eyes*


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## Brother_Steve (Oct 7, 2016)

Brother JC said:


> Auto-correct is a wonderful thing... *rolls eyes*


lol


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## CLewey44 (Oct 7, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> Coming before the Grand Lodge of Kentucky this year is a proposal to allow members to actually recruit members instead of waiting for them to ask. Last night my mother lodge voted to support this proposal. I have mixed feelings but I cast my vote to support it at the meeting. As Grand Lodge will be held this month we won't have to wait long to learn the outcome.



I've said to some worthy guys, 'You'd make a great Mason. If you ever want to join, let me know.' I don't see that is wholeheartedly soliciting but just a bit of a jump starter and encouragement that they'd get a lot out of it.


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## Bloke (Oct 7, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> I've said to some worthy guys, 'You'd make a great Mason. If you ever want to join, let me know.' I don't see that is wholeheartedly soliciting but just a bit of a jump starter and encouragement that they'd get a lot out of it.



Perfect.


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## CLewey44 (Oct 7, 2016)

Warrior1256 said:


> Coming before the Grand Lodge of Kentucky this year is a proposal to allow members to actually recruit members instead of waiting for them to ask. Last night my mother lodge voted to support this proposal. I have mixed feelings but I cast my vote to support it at the meeting. As Grand Lodge will be held this month we won't have to wait long to learn the outcome.



As I said, I will tell individuals they'd be a good Mason, I do however have mixed feelings on actually recruiting. The reason is because it'll water us down due to MASS RECRUITING. They'll have highway signs recruiting, tv commercials, magazine ads and every Tom, Dick and Harry will be petitioning and it may lose its luster. I don't think direct recruitment is the answer, I think changing some things and getting back to the way things were 299 years ago meaning, have some class and mystery. Bring that 'darkness' back into it etc.


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## Bloke (Oct 7, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> As I said, I will tell individuals they'd be a good Mason, I do however have mixed feelings on actually recruiting. The reason is because it'll water us down due to MASS RECRUITING. They'll have highway signs recruiting, tv commercials, magazine ads and every Tom, Dick and Harry will be petitioning and it may lose its luster. I don't think direct recruitment is the answer, I think changing some things and getting back to the way things were 299 years ago meaning, have some class and mystery. Bring that 'darkness' back into it etc.



People can't join us if they've never heard of us. Advertising is not soliciting.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 7, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> I've said to some worthy guys, 'You'd make a great Mason. If you ever want to join, let me know.' I don't see that is wholeheartedly soliciting but just a bit of a jump starter and encouragement that they'd get a lot out of it.


Sounds good!


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 7, 2016)

Bloke said:


> People can't join us if they've never heard of us. Advertising is not soliciting.


Also sounds good!


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## dfreybur (Oct 8, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> As I said, I will tell individuals they'd be a good Mason, I do however have mixed feelings on actually recruiting. The reason is because it'll water us down due to MASS RECRUITING. They'll have highway signs recruiting, tv commercials, magazine ads and every Tom, Dick and Harry will be petitioning and it may lose its luster. I don't think direct recruitment is the answer, I think changing some things and getting back to the way things were 299 years ago meaning, have some class and mystery. Bring that 'darkness' back into it etc.



This is why I like the idea of invitations.  Jurisdictions on mainland Europe that do invitations end up with high quality members.  They don't do it en masse.

Then again I like the idea of PR.  Individuals can't come to us if they don't know we exist.

I have no idea how to combine my two opinions above in any reasonable manner.


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## Bloke (Oct 8, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> This is why I like the idea of invitations.  Jurisdictions on mainland Europe that do invitations end up with high quality members.  They don't do it en masse.
> 
> Then again I like the idea of PR.  Individuals can't come to us if they don't know we exist.
> 
> I have no idea how to combine my two opinions above in any reasonable manner.



Easy. Qualify your potential candidates properly.  Also have a bit of faith that once you vet them, let Masonry do its thing...


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 8, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> This is why I like the idea of invitations. Jurisdictions on mainland Europe that do invitations end up with high quality members. They don't do it en masse.
> 
> Then again I like the idea of PR. Individuals can't come to us if they don't know we exist.
> 
> I have no idea how to combine my two opinions above in any reasonable manner.





Bloke said:


> Easy. Qualify your potential candidates properly. Also have a bit of faith that once you vet them, let Masonry do its thing...


Great!


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## Glen Cook (Oct 8, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> As I said, I will tell individuals they'd be a good Mason, I do however have mixed feelings on actually recruiting. The reason is because it'll water us down due to MASS RECRUITING. They'll have highway signs recruiting, tv commercials, magazine ads and every Tom, Dick and Harry will be petitioning and it may lose its luster. I don't think direct recruitment is the answer, I think changing some things and getting back to the way things were 299 years ago meaning, have some class and mystery. Bring that 'darkness' back into it etc.


The first highway signs were c1995. We've already had TV ads


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## dfreybur (Oct 9, 2016)

Glen Cook said:


> The first highway signs were c1995. We've already had TV ads



I've seen cinema ads by SR Valley of Chicago.

The most common one I've seen as at least that indirect.  Tons of 18-wheeler trailers on the Interstate have Shiner stickers asking for donations to the hospitals.


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## Seeves (Oct 9, 2016)

I am very new to Masonry. Hopefully will pass to FC on Tuesday. My thoughts as a new member of the fraternity... 

Every biological brother in my dads generation where Masons in good standing at one point in time or another. My father is currently a Mason in good standing. My uncle passed away as a Mason in good standing and another uncle was a member, but lost interest. I grew up around Masonry. I've been in events that lodges have held all along the east coast. The reason this background is important is that to me the fraternity is more about legacy and family. Learning the knowledge that my father and uncles have learned. I remember in early adulthood asking my dad things like "What does it take to be a Mason?" I remember the most common question I would always ask was "Why haven't you asked me to join?" I never felt pressured to join. But also in a weird way wondered if I had maybe didn't have the right character or something. He never even asked me if I wanted to. I always had a desire to join, but I was never quite ready. My dad would always respond to that question with "When you are ready to become a Mason son you'll know and if you ever do, I'll be proud to sign your petition." I finally decided to petition my dad's mother lodge last June and started my EA degree last month. I've never been happier to do so and I'm glad that my dad will get to see me be raised as I'm the only son who has decided to join the fraternity. To me joining the fraternity was something that I built a desire to do over my lifetime because it was something that was always around and something I had to choose to take part in. It makes you feel like you are joining an elite group of brothers. I feel that if the fraternity starts asking members to join that it will take away from that causing the fraternity to be just another brotherhood amongst many. I firmly believe that you don't find Masonry, Masonry finds you. 


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 10, 2016)

Seeves said:


> I am very new to Masonry. Hopefully will pass to FC on Tuesday. My thoughts as a new member of the fraternity...


Congratulations!


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## dfreybur (Oct 10, 2016)

Seeves said:


> I remember the most common question I would always ask was "Why haven't you asked me to join?"



I was at a family social event and pointed to a man's ring.  He said something like "It's not well known, but there are no invitations to become a Mason.  The only way in is to ask for a petition".  I remembered that as a couple of years later I showed up and asked for a petition.

Brothers need to be far more explicit when someone expresses interest.  Tell them the only way in is to ask for a petition.



> I finally decided to petition my dad's mother lodge last June and started my EA degree last month.



Welcome to the family once adopted Brother.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 10, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Brothers need to be far more explicit when someone expresses interest. Tell them the only way in is to ask for a petition.


Very true. You really don't need to ask someone to join. If you have a friend that you think would make a good Mason you could simply start a conversation on Masonry and talk about how great that you think it is. Then if the person asks about how to join it's "Well, since you asked....".


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## CLewey44 (Oct 10, 2016)

I guess my question would be then, how'd Masonry get advertised in the 18th and 19th century without being advertised at all? Are we already watered down and basically just trying to keep a lot of smaller lodges afloat therefore trying to get as much attention as possible without coming off as 'advertising'. Maybe one way to spark some interest in current Masons would be to consolidate lodges? I DEFINITELY like the invitation but do so in a very careful manner. If a couple of Masons have their eye on a man who is up to par, then some sort of  invitation vote would happen, then send the man an official invitation. I bet you it'd bring in the kind of guys most Masons would like to be around and alleviate having to awkwardly blackball someone or worst yet, blindly vote on someone you've never met.


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## Bloke (Oct 10, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> I guess my question would be then, how'd Masonry get advertised in the 18th and 19th century without being advertised at all? Are we already watered down and basically just trying to keep a lot of smaller lodges afloat therefore trying to get as much attention as possible without coming off as 'advertising'. Maybe one way to spark some interest in current Masons would be to consolidate lodges? I DEFINITELY like the invitation but do so in a very careful manner. If a couple of Masons have their eye on a man who is up to par, then some sort of  invitation vote would happen, then send the man an official invitation. I bet you it'd bring in the kind of guys most Masons would like to be around and alleviate having to awkwardly blackball someone or worst yet, blindly vote on someone you've never met.



Freemasonry was heavily advertised and publicized in the 1800's and prior to the 1930's (here). Lodges meetings were in Australian Papers, the the Craft had a good presence in the paper, partly because of our Vice Regal Grand Masters, but also generally. American newspapers would also carry reports on Freemasonry. The Anti-masonic movement in the States made Freemasonry front page news...

How would consolidating lodges "spark interest", if you have a large disengaged membership, you are probably just going to end up with a larger disengaged membership, not even member of the lodge they may have some tie to because the were initiated in it, longer a member of their mother lodge. That would likely be counter productive



CLewey44 said:


> ... I bet you it'd bring in the kind of guys most Masons would like to be around and alleviate having to awkwardly blackball someone or worst yet, blindly vote on someone you've never met.



Building lodge is building a social group. I always ask, is the proposed guy the sort of man you want to be at a dinner party with or go away on a weekend with? These are important, because our lodge has dinner parties and goes away as a group... we discover that by having them as guests, so we can mutually check them out. If they are into fine dining, we are not the lodge for them, but I know the right lodge.  If they love live music, we are not the lodge for them, but I know the right lodge... Being a member of two lodges, I've got several who visited one but joined the other because it was a better fit; but I've also sent them to other lodges which I feel they would have  a better environment for  success. Being able to do that is a great advantage, but if you're in a country town its harder, but two guys are enough to create the kernel of a group, and if it needs more people, get some non-freemasons involved.. .that's just the sort of thing which brings new members..


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## MarkR (Oct 11, 2016)

dfreybur said:


> Brothers need to be far more explicit when someone expresses interest.  Tell them the only way in is to ask for a petition.


I know of one very solid Mason whose own father wouldn't discuss Masonry with him until he had asked three times.  He had been taught that a man had to ask three times to show he was sincerely interested.

Anybody who asks me about Masonry gets an earful.


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## CLewey44 (Oct 11, 2016)

How would consolidating lodges "spark interest", if you have a large disengaged membership, you are probably just going to end up with a larger disengaged membership, not even member of the lodge they may have some tie to because the were initiated in it, longer a member of their mother lodge. That would likely be counter productive


I think I was a little unclear on this. I was alluding to towns that have more than one lodge and say 2 or 3 (or more) of them are hanging by a thread, haven't updated their building in 40 years(old building and old interior but not in a good way old), way more are dying than joining and they barely have enough folks attending to open up for a meeting on the MM degree. Or even lodges that only have 6-12 people per night but again struggling to gain new members. I think consolidating would allow for lodge funds to go to one lodge vs paying the taxes, utilities and rent/mortgage on several lodges, you'd probably see the sidelines packed a little more since everyone is going to one place and would allow for more fun events. More diversity therefore more interesting topics and ideas.

When you came in, and maybe you did have this experience, what if it was a very large, spacious lodge full of Masons there to support you the night you were initiated vs. 8 or 9 people showed up like I've seen and even sort of experienced myself. Spreading us thin I don't think works. I think small towns with one lodge, sure, they should stay open but if they're the only lodge in a town of 20-30K people, odds are, they're doing OK.  I visited a lodge last week in western NY, beautiful lodge, glorious old building from the early 1800s, good ambiance, old furniture (but GOOD old, not late 70s old) had younger members but even on a night when the DGM, Grand Steward and Grand Lecturer came on a official visit, there was only nine people there. Nine. Obviously if I hadn't been there, there'd be only the officers, one sideliner and three distinguished guests. Just down the street, they're is another small lodge that I visited and only 10-12 folks that night. I think that's spread a little thin.

In Oklahoma, how many times have I seen a guy get initiated and we would be scrambling trying to figure out who's going to do what and even once, they almost tried to consider the initiate as one of the seven to open on a lodge of EAs but luckily someone showed up. Every lodge I've been to, TX, OK and NY have all been very low attendance and they all were in towns with way more than one lodges. Even some small towns, like the one in TX I went to, had at least 4 lodges. They were spread thin and I can't imagine how any idealist candidate would view that.

I think too, it may help alleviate some of the rogue lodges that give us a bad name from time to time. I know of at least one lodge in the Midwest that will downright not allow black men to join despite the state allowing black me to join. Small lodge that is out in the sticks sort of, just in the metro area of a much larger city. 

I guess the bottom line is, we have a bad business model if lodges are closing or are on the brink of closing as much as people say.


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## Bloke (Oct 11, 2016)

CLewey44 said:


> .......I guess the bottom line is, we have a bad business model if lodges are closing or are on the brink of closing as much as people say.



Now you're onto it. Merging lodges with bad business models does not solve the model problem.

Also " As much as they say'- don't get dragged down by people talking down the Craft. It's the old story, when things go right, not much is said, when they go wrong, the noise is deafening. Dont paint the devil on the wall. The "Golden Age" of Freemasonry is today, because it's ours, what our grandfather did, or even what's going on in the next town over is not as important as what's your own lodge. It's like a family, next doors kids are great, but not as important as your own. So it is with lodges.. Freemasonry is full of Chicken Littles who think the sky is falling 

I'll share two stories

1. 
We almost merged with another lodge once, it teased a lot of issues out for us and after going through the process, we even changed our meeting night. The other lodge was shocked we did not merge, they were bigger, more experienced, richer. We'd carefully rebuilt after getting down to 14 members, and we knew the most important thing is attitude; a willingness to adjust to position for success. Two years on, they were gone and we were still going, and going strong. It was 6 masters ago....

2.
 two lodges merged here. They'd merged because each lodge had 15 guys attending and they figured a room of 30 would be better. In about a year, they were down to 15 guys attending... it was obvious why, there were the officers, there was the guys giving charges, the guy doing the raffle, sec treasurer etc, they all had a job and purpose. Those members  who lost their purpose  in the larger group left because the merged lodge just kept doing what it had been doing since the merge. Numbers we're not the problem, their purpose and operations were...

My lodge of 14 saved it's building and saved it's lodge simply by defining failure as handing in its warrant and realizing we needed to change to get and retain  new guys. Retention is the big challenge. 

You only have to focus on making your own lodge great ( or keeping it that way, which ironically will mean you need to change). It's a challenge but a really rewarding one


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