# Observe Freemasonry



## °Joel (Oct 9, 2019)

Hi.

I am not a member of the Brotherhood nor do I sincerely want to be.
I have a question that I'm afraid to ask in person which is why I'm seeking the answer here.

Is it possible for me to become an "observer" of freemason workings as an outsider?
As it may seem odd to just want to watch, it is what I do on a daily basis, I watch people.


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## Elexir (Oct 9, 2019)

°Joel said:


> Hi.
> 
> I am not a member of the Brotherhood nor do I sincerely want to be.
> I have a question that I'm afraid to ask in person which is why I'm seeking the answer here.
> ...



No. To gain entry to freemasonry you have to join. In some juristictions you might be able to meet up with brothers before lodge and maybe watch a few public things. There are still things that are considerd secret and that are not for non-masons.


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## Mike Martin (Oct 9, 2019)

°Joel said:


> Is it possible for me to become an "observer" of freemason workings as an outsider?


No, it is a private club.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 11, 2019)

Elexir said:


> No. To gain entry to freemasonry you have to join. In some juristictions you might be able to meet up with brothers before lodge and maybe watch a few public things. There are still things that are considerd secret and that are not for non-masons.





Mike Martin said:


> No, it is a private club.


Ditto!


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## Winter (Oct 11, 2019)

°Joel said:


> Hi.
> 
> I am not a member of the Brotherhood nor do I sincerely want to be.
> I have a question that I'm afraid to ask in person which is why I'm seeking the answer here.
> ...


So what is it you are hoping to see? If you have any questions we would be happy to answer them if we can.  But, as has already been mentioned, what goes on in open Lodge is restricted to initiates of our order. But many Lodges also have social events open to the public that you would be welcome to attend and observe.  You could start by contacting them and ask of they have anything coming up you could attend.  

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## °Joel (Oct 11, 2019)

I just want to learn about their ways, anything, even if it's just a little bit. I'm surrounded by Masons everyday and it just makes me very curious. From what has already been said, it seems that one has to accept with blind faith and that's not my thing.


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## Winter (Oct 11, 2019)

°Joel said:


> I just want to learn about their ways, anything, even if it's just a little bit. I'm surrounded by Masons everyday and it just makes me very curious. From what has already been said, it seems that one has to accept with blind faith and that's not my thing.


Not so.  Our foundational tenets are widely available for anyone to find. They're no secret.  The only thing you will be restricted from seeing is the actual form of our ritual.  I suggest Freemasons for Dummies. It was written by an esteemed Brother and provides an excellent look at our Fraternal Order. 

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## Keith C (Oct 11, 2019)

°Joel said:


> I just want to learn about their ways, anything, even if it's just a little bit. I'm surrounded by Masons everyday and it just makes me very curious. From what has already been said, it seems that one has to accept with blind faith and that's not my thing.



Faith and trust, yes.  "Blind" to a degree.

No one should attempt to go into Freemasonry without a large amount of trust.  That trust should be developed over time, by interacting with the Brethren of the Lodge you wish to associate with.  Potential petitioners should, in my opinion, either already be close friends with at least one, preferably several Freemasons, or spend sufficient time getting to know Brethren in the Lodge in order to develop a sense of friendship and trust.   The knowledge that people you know, admire and trust have been through the rituals and would not see anything negative, harmful or disturbing put to you is what inculcates the faith the candidate possesses to go forward into a situation where the details are unknown to them.  

Also my opinion here, but foreknowledge of the details of the Degree Work ruins the experience for the Candidate.


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## Elexir (Oct 11, 2019)

Keith C said:


> Faith and trust, yes.  "Blind" to a degree.
> 
> No one should attempt to go into Freemasonry without a large amount of trust.  That trust should be developed over time, by interacting with the Brethren of the Lodge you wish to associate with.  Potential petitioners should, in my opinion, either already be close friends with at least one, preferably several Freemasons, or spend sufficient time getting to know Brethren in the Lodge in order to develop a sense of friendship and trust.   The knowledge that people you know, admire and trust have been through the rituals and would not see anything negative, harmful or disturbing put to you is what inculcates the faith the candidate possesses to go forward into a situation where the details are unknown to them.



Here we see another diffrence between juristictions. In My juristiction, non-masons are not allowed to enter the premises when there are meetings so its kind of hard to get to know the brothers.
We have certain events where non-masons can come.


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## Winter (Oct 11, 2019)

Elexir said:


> Here we see another diffrence between juristictions. In My juristiction, non-masons are not allowed to enter the premises when there are meetings so its kind of hard to get to know the brothers.
> We have certain events where non-masons can come.


It is the same here is the States for rituals or business meetings. But most jurisdictions have several functions that are not Tyled where guests can attend and get to know the Brothers.  

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## Elexir (Oct 11, 2019)

Winter said:


> It is the same here is the States for rituals or business meetings. But most jurisdictions have several functions that are not Tyled where guests can attend and get to know the Brothers.
> 
> Transmitted via R5 astromech using Tapatalk Galactic



All functions here are basicly tyled at a certain degree becuse of the rituals. The information eavnings that we have have maybe a few members (mostly officers at diffrent lodges) present.


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## Winter (Oct 11, 2019)

Elexir said:


> All functions here are basicly tyled at a certain degree becuse of the rituals. The information eavnings that we have have maybe a few members (mostly officers at diffrent lodges) present.


So you have no dinners, or pig roasts, or fish frys, (we have a lot of food-centric events lol) or any other Lodge events that are purely social in nature with no degree work? Interesting. 

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## Elexir (Oct 11, 2019)

Winter said:


> So you have no dinners, or pig roasts, or fish frys, (we have a lot of food-centric events lol) or any other Lodge events that are purely social in nature with no degree work? Interesting.
> 
> Transmitted via R5 astromech using Tapatalk Galactic



Some lodges holds mass wich due to church law you cant keep private.
There are more social event but these are more aimed at brothers and their familys.
Heres the thing, to cook food you have to abide by certain laws  wich makes it more complex and expensive then it might be in the US.


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## Winter (Oct 11, 2019)

Elexir said:


> Some lodges holds mass wich due to church law you cant keep private.
> There are more social event but these are more aimed at brothers and their familys.
> Heres the thing, to cook food you have to abide by certain laws  wich makes it more complex and expensive then it might be in the US.


We have strict food prep laws if you are running a for profit food business. But most Lodges here have a kitchen used for their own events that is less governed, but there are usually still some legal requirements that my need to be maintained, even for a private club. But that is not universal. It all depends on the local laws. But it does sound like we have it easier here to put on a social dinner for the members and guests. 

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## CLewey44 (Oct 12, 2019)

You can sit around and watch whoever you want except Freemasons while in a stated meeting. Period.


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## Luigi Visentin (Oct 13, 2019)

Dear Joel, please reflect on this point: millions of Brothers in three centuries has followed the same path, that is first join and then "observe" (but it is better to say "participate") to the works. Why it should be different for you or for any other? The works are not a show.


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## Mike Martin (Oct 14, 2019)

°Joel said:


> I just want to learn about their ways, anything, even if it's just a little bit.


Well you ask us some questions and we'll tell you, however, you should probably understand from the start that "our ways" are probably the same as "your ways".


°Joel said:


> I'm surrounded by Masons everyday and it just makes me very curious.


That is highly unlikely!


°Joel said:


> From what has already been said, it seems that one has to accept with blind faith and that's not my thing.


I don't understand what you have to accept.


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## Keith C (Oct 14, 2019)

Elexir said:


> Here we see another diffrence between juristictions. In My juristiction, non-masons are not allowed to enter the premises when there are meetings so its kind of hard to get to know the brothers.
> We have certain events where non-masons can come.



That is very interesting indeed.  The great majority of Lodges in PA have a meal before every Stated Meeting.  We use the meal as an opportunity to invite prospective petitioners and candidates to engage socially with the Brethren and get to know them.  It varies Lodge to Lodge and Master to Master, but currently we expect a potential petitioner to attend at least a couple meals prior to entering their petition and to continue to be there for meals until they are Raised.  If we have EAs or FCs as members we will hold our Stated Meeting in the EA Degree to permit them to attend, unless prevented by the Work to be done.

Not having this venue of social interaction would, in my opinion, be an impediment to allowing enough Brethren to get to know the Petitioner to have an informed ballot.


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## Elexir (Oct 14, 2019)

Keith C said:


> That is very interesting indeed.  The great majority of Lodges in PA have a meal before every Stated Meeting.  We use the meal as an opportunity to invite prospective petitioners and candidates to engage socially with the Brethren and get to know them.  It varies Lodge to Lodge and Master to Master, but currently we expect a potential petitioner to attend at least a couple meals prior to entering their petition and to continue to be there for meals until they are Raised.  If we have EAs or FCs as members we will hold our Stated Meeting in the EA Degree to permit them to attend, unless prevented by the Work to be done.
> 
> Not having this venue of social interaction would, in my opinion, be an impediment to allowing enough Brethren to get to know the Petitioner to have an informed ballot.



There are more factors then just potential brothers to take into consideration though. Historical reasons as well as the current climate will affect how open you can be.


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## David612 (Oct 14, 2019)

We do a similar thing with holding meals after meetings.
With the passing of my father I attended none of them and was still approved to receive the degrees-


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## coachn (Oct 14, 2019)

°Joel said:


> ...I am not a member of the Brotherhood nor do I sincerely want to be.


<coach sits back and braces himself...>


°Joel said:


> I have a question that I'm afraid to ask in person which is why I'm seeking the answer here.


<sigh> what on God's green earth could you possibly be afraid of?!?!?!


°Joel said:


> Is it possible for me to become an "observer" of freemason workings as an outsider?


Yes.  However, it'd be outside an open lodge and not as boring. ;-) 

You'd likely have seen freemasons working all around you but haven't noticed.


°Joel said:


> As it may seem odd to just want to watch, it is what I do on a daily basis, I watch people.


And likely some of them were freemasons working, just as you desired, perhaps right beside you MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!


°Joel said:


> I just want to learn about their ways, anything, even if it's just a little bit.


Record yourself for 24 hours and watch the recording.  It's likely that 100% of what you do as a human being is what you'd see freemasons doing, except for the private plays they engage in, all else is mainstream.


°Joel said:


> I'm surrounded by Masons everyday and it just makes me very curious.


See!  Already!...

BTW - If you're surrounded already, then your request is a plot. You already have what you claim you seek: Watching freemasons working.


°Joel said:


> From what has already been said, ...


By who?


°Joel said:


> ...it seems that one has to accept with blind faith ...


Accept WHAT with blind faith?!?!?!


°Joel said:


> ...and that's not my thing.


No, but it does come across like you're seeding the conversational soil with weeds of deception.


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 14, 2019)

Lol!!! The biting wit of coachn strikes again!


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## jermy Bell (Oct 14, 2019)

You must submit a written request of your request in triplicate to the over seers the lizard people. Then you must wait a minimum of 4-5 Galactic weeks for a reply. Most refusals are non negotiable.
                   All hail zook zook !


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## David612 (Oct 14, 2019)

jermy Bell said:


> You must submit a written request of your request in triplicate to the over seers the lizard people. Then you must wait a minimum of 4-5 Galactic weeks for a reply. Most refusals are non negotiable.
> All hail zook zook !


Best information in the thread thus far 10/10


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## Warrior1256 (Oct 15, 2019)

jermy Bell said:


> You must submit a written request of your request in triplicate to the over seers the lizard people. Then you must wait a minimum of 4-5 Galactic weeks for a reply. Most refusals are non negotiable.
> All hail zook zook !


LOL!!!! Great!!!


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## Matt1 (Dec 31, 2019)

Not to encourage "observing" but there was a non-mason, late mr Harri Heino, dr. theol, who was granted the right to observe.

It had been suggested that no minister of the Church should join the freemasons. The idea was to convince the Church of Finland that there is nothing in Freemasonry that would be in contrast with Christianity or the  Church.

There wasn't,  and the ministers were de free to attend freemasonry if they wanted. Dr Heino conluded that the masons were, in fact, active churchgoers.

Almost 70% of Finns are members of the Evangelic Lutheran Church of Finland, so it was quite important to root out any distrust.

Edit: https://www.amazon.com/What-does-Finnish-Freemason-believe/dp/9516932061 , currently unavailable


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## Elexir (Dec 31, 2019)

Matt1 said:


> Not to encourage "observing" but there was a non-mason, late mr Harri Heino, dr. theol, who was granted the right to observe.
> 
> It had been suggested that no minister of the Church should join the freemasons. The idea was to convince the Church of Finland that there is nothing in Freemasonry that would be in contrast with Christianity or the  Church.
> 
> ...



We had such an thing happening here in Sweden. Some ministers field complaints to the church of Sweden. I dont know if they observed but they where given acess to rituals and came to the conclusion that it was no problem.

Its espacily important for the swedish rite as there are certain offices that are meant only for priests and the likes.


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## Luigi Visentin (Jan 17, 2020)

The ancient Charges foresaw that non-mason, particularly sheriffs and high dignitaries of the town, could be invited, particularly in case of possibile disorders, to observe workings. I do not think that it has been done from 1717 till today as with the modern Freemasonry, there should not be "disorders" anymore. As I have written, works are not a show.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 18, 2020)

Luigi Visentin said:


> The ancient Charges foresaw that non-mason, particularly sheriffs and high dignitaries of the town, could be invited, particularly in case of possibile disorders, to observe workings. I do not think that it has been done from 1717 till today as with the modern Freemasonry, there should not be "disorders" anymore. As I have written, works are not a show.


My experience is that Freemasonry can very much be a show.


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## coachn (Jan 18, 2020)

Glen Cook said:


> My experience is that Freemasonry can very much be a show.


When the performance is for show, the actors reveal their true character.


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## Luigi Visentin (Jan 18, 2020)

Glen Cook said:


> My experience is that Freemasonry can very much be a show.


In another sense you are fully right!  But not in the sense of the initial request at the root of this post.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 18, 2020)

Luigi Visentin said:


> In another sense you are fully right!  But not in the sense of the initial request at the root of this post.


As in observe?  What about public installation ceremonies, public masonic funerals, and public cornerstone ceremonies?


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## Luigi Visentin (Jan 18, 2020)

It would be a good thing but public ceremonies are not common in Italy. Mainly the events open to public are conferences or concerts. Non Masons can usually attend open dinners when invited by Brothers.
This is what I have experienced till now. Our Grand Master is trying to wide the occasions to let people know us better, in order to fight the fake news sorrounding us. However the pressure is high. A few months ago, for example, a High School in Rome has organized a meeting with a local Lodge to know something more about Freemasonry. The meeting has been held but there have been protests on many newspapers before and after the meeting.


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## TheThumbPuppy (Jan 19, 2020)

Luigi Visentin said:


> The meeting has been held but there have been protests on many newspapers before and after the meeting


Italy is a rather problematic country to raise the profile of Freemasonry. I'm thinking for example of the P2 lodge and the Vatican's long-standing anti-masonic position.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 19, 2020)

Luigi Visentin said:


> It would be a good thing but public ceremonies are not common in Italy. Mainly the events open to public are conferences or concerts. Non Masons can usually attend open dinners when invited by Brothers.
> This is what I have experienced till now. Our Grand Master is trying to wide the occasions to let people know us better, in order to fight the fake news sorrounding us. However the pressure is high. A few months ago, for example, a High School in Rome has organized a meeting with a local Lodge to know something more about Freemasonry. The meeting has been held but there have been protests on many newspapers before and after the meeting.


Yes, having been in meetings with the GOI GM, I’m well aware of the issues there. However, your comment wasn’t limited to Italian Freemasonry. It is parlous to make a general comment regarding Freemasonry worldwide .


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## Luigi Visentin (Jan 20, 2020)

Glen Cook said:


> However, your comment wasn’t limited to Italian Freemasonry. It is parlous to make a general comment regarding Freemasonry worldwide .


I was referring to Freemasonry in a broad sense, not referred to its "implementation". Likely I have translated my thoughs in a wrong way.


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## Glen Cook (Jan 21, 2020)

Luigi Visentin said:


> I was referring to Freemasonry in a broad sense, not referred to its "implementation". Likely I have translated my thoughs in a wrong way.


To the contrary. You specifically used the very narrow example of Italian Freemasonry to argue your point.


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## Luigi Visentin (Jan 22, 2020)

Likely I'm still having problem with translation. My reference to Italian Freemasonry was referred to your reference to public events. I will use better the quoting next time.


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