# An old man in his dotage



## beehiveblack (Mar 18, 2014)

Thank you.


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## vangoedenaam (Mar 18, 2014)

In our lodge we initiated a candidate who is a refugee from another country. He does speak our language, but limited. We know that limits some of the things he can do in lodge. However, he has life experience we can all learn from and be inspired by, and we know we can offer him a place in a group of ppl in a new country.

Your question isn't all about speaking, I'm just picking out one aspect. 

My suggestion would be to look at what the new brother would bring to the lodge. Not just the limitations. Someone may be an excellent brother, yet be unable to fill many position in lodge.

Hope this helps...


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## Zack (Mar 18, 2014)

"...advanced age....clearly in his 60's".  Are you sure you are not laboring under the generational gap?


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## vangoedenaam (Mar 18, 2014)

We recently initiated a candidate already 70yo. I think there should not be any discrimination based on age. Its not about a return on investment 


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## afterlodgejason (Mar 18, 2014)

Some of the best brothers I know never held a office. 

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## beehiveblack (Mar 18, 2014)

Brothers, forgive me, I typed all of this up on my phone last night, I got sick of typing.  There was more that was worth staying but didn't have it in me at the time... that being said,

Zach, one of the best ritualists at my lodge is a 9x year old man, we just gave him his 65 year pin 2 weeks ago. So, I am well aware of what our elder brothers can contribute to our lodges. As far as the "gap" is concerned, I honestly don't even see/play into that divide. A brother is a brother regardless of age.  But, these are brothers that have had decades to become the great masons they are.

Vangoe,  I'm not sure if your serious about the return on investment or not.  If your are, I am going to absolutely disagree with you.  Imagine if we as a fraternity, were to bring in waves of brothers that we don't expect anything out of, imagine down the line the problems we'd see... better yet, don't imagine... that's happened a few times in American masonry, historically speaking. And we are still trying to clean it up to this day.  It might be a hardline stance but can you honestly say, you'd be excited for just another warm body in your lodge?

Jason, I'll refer you to my second post on the same topic on reddit.  

Thank you brothers for your thoughts on the matter.

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## Brother_Steve (Mar 18, 2014)

We all join Masonry for our own reasons that should never be judges by others.

Some men are content with fellowship and what we do upstairs is the work whereas some men see ritual and wearing an apron as the core meaning of masonry and fellowship is a means to their end. Then you have those in the middle of that spectrum. There are many more circumstances but I will be in my dotage by the time I list them all!

Point being, all of those reasons are correct so long as your motives are not mercenary in nature.

This man is a cancer survivor. He has an experience most of us do not every want to go through. He may have comforting words for Brethren who are walking that path. You never know.

Also, to be fair, I would not call a man in his dotage unless he was senile. Physical prowess might escape some of us but that should not disqualify someone.

Tell your SD to walk a little slower and take your time putting him in due form.

New masons, while encouraged to get in line, they do not have to get in line.

You sat in on the IC but you are not officially part of the IC. If the IC comes back favorably can you yourself find any masonic reason to cube someone? I would not do such a thing unless I knew the person was going to harm our craft publicly or privately. 

Remember, Masonry could arguably be summed up in one phrase. Extraordinary men in ordinary circumstances. How will you find yourself in this circumstance?

Yeah, that was a low blow. I apologize. I believe you need to dig deeper into the definition of Dotage in the speculative sense. We no longer work in quarries or move heavy stone. Dotage in the speculative sense would be strictly speaking of a weak mind.

We recently initiated a man who had hip replacement and could not be in due form at the Altar. He had to be seated. It is the words and lessons we impart on the candidate and how they put those words and tools to use in their life. So long as they do not make a malicious attempt to mock the degree work and are truly there for becoming a better man, I say have at it.


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## cacarter (Mar 18, 2014)

I understand your concerns and give you credit for wanting to guard the west gate. 

If you are concerned about dotage then I point to this specific quote of yours:


beehiveblack said:


> He did at times seem to forget the questions we asked and ended up on a tangent or restating an early point he made.



Saying that though, I know many "young" guys who SQUIRREL! have a habit of going off on tangents. 

As to your questions: No, I have not darkened a ballot, the situation has never arisen for me to consider it.

It is up to the grand lodge to decide if a physical ailment will bar a candidate from receiving the degrees.


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## afterlodgejason (Mar 18, 2014)

Cacarter you just described my whole show. 

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## JJones (Mar 18, 2014)

I just saw and replied to this on Reddit.  I'm one of those folks that has a minority opinion so I'll just say do what your conscious tells you is right for your lodge.


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## cacarter (Mar 18, 2014)

AfterlodgeJason, you specifically came to mind when I typed that.


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## vangoedenaam (Mar 18, 2014)

To get back to that return on investment, good men make freemasonry better. If you let in the good men, it will be better. It really isnt about roi. I dont thing this should be a theme when deciding to let someone join or not. Part of that argument also has to do with the strange idea some ppl have thinking they are able or even justified to judge. If a man is a good man, a free man, and he actually lived, he'll somehow find a way to be an asset to the lodge. I believe that. And if i can be proven completely wrong, please do so, im quite willing to learn.


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## CTSloan (Mar 18, 2014)

I believe he should be judged on his heart and his intentions. Just because he goes off on tangents while carrying on a conversation that's not a big deal. I do that sometimes and I'm 32. Who knows he maybe be able to learn memory work no problem. Kinda like a singer that stutters when talking but not when singing because they know what they are going to say. I could be wrong but it's my opinion. 


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## JohnnyFlotsam (Mar 18, 2014)

beehiveblack said:


> Brothers, forgive me, I typed all of this up on my phone last night, I got sick of typing.  There was more that was worth staying but didn't have it in me at the time... that being said,
> 
> Zach, one of the best ritualists at my lodge is a 9x year old man...



In my SR jurisdiction there was a man of similar age and who was capable of only  rather hoarse, low-volume speech. It was a treat to listen to him as his command of the ritual, including subtler nuances... you know, of the type a trained actor knows how to deliver, were without equal. 

IIRC, the ritual says nothing about "painfully near dotage". 

It appears that there is no reason to disqualify this man.


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## dfreybur (Mar 18, 2014)

cacarter said:


> Saying that though, I know many "young" guys who SQUIRREL! have a habit of going off on tangents.



By the way, the dog in the movie Up is named Doug.  Being a bit ADHD myself I SO MUCH identified with that other Doug.  That's what our world is like except for having a tail.

I also suggest that dotage is about the mental not the physical.  I've been at degrees where the candidate needed various types of physical help including some who needed extensive help.


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## rpbrown (Mar 18, 2014)

Now I have to ask, what age do you consider Dotage? I am also clearly up in my 60's and was raised 6 years ago, just before my 60th birthday. I am now in line for the East. So at what point are we, the older generation, to be disregarded because of age?


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## afterlodgejason (Mar 18, 2014)

rpbrown said:


> So at what point are we, the older generation, to be disregarded because of age?



Never. Sadly our culture sometimes disregards the life experiences and wisdom old age brings. 

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## vangoedenaam (Mar 18, 2014)

Some of my brethren are well into their 80s and still active in lodge. I have a lot to learn from all of them.
Tonight i listened to the talk of a 32yo brother and learned a lot too. Its really not about age at all


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## dfreybur (Mar 19, 2014)

rpbrown said:


> Now I have to ask, what age do you consider Dotage?



While legal systems need to declare ages for various legal status situations, Masonry does not need to do that.  To me dotage is about mental acuity.  I've met men in their 30s I didn't think could handle the content of the degrees and men at 100 who have a lot to teach about the content of the degrees.


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## JJones (Mar 19, 2014)

Dotage - A period of life where one is old and weak

Dotard - An old person that is weak or senile

I interpret it like this: If the potential member might be a burden on the lodge, or has some pre-existing condition that would make it near impossible to learn the work and attend lodge regularly (deaf, blind, alzeimer's, etc.)  then that is the kind of person they are referring to.  My guess is that when masonic charity was directed more towards lodge members and their families then the new comer might be bringing a burden on the lodge or possibly be joining for mercenary motives.

Does simply being old make you a dotard? I don't believe so, we've got two elderly members, one 89 and the other 100, who still know the ritual front and back.  Blue lodge, Chapter, and Council.  It's very inspiring!


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## jjjjjggggg (Mar 19, 2014)

.


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## nixxon2000 (Mar 19, 2014)

I don't think it's right to judge him because he might go off on side trips while talking. 

Any man who seeks light should be welcome in Masonry. 

Some of us seek light in our 20's 
Some when we're in our 90's. 

To me it's like an atheist finding religion at the end of life. It's not about when you find it. It's just finding it. 

If he's willing to try and wants to better himself I think that's awesome. 


Sorry but I feel passionate about this post.     


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## MarkR (Mar 20, 2014)

dfreybur said:


> While legal systems need to declare ages for various legal status situations, Masonry does not need to do that.  To me dotage is about mental acuity.  I've met men in their 30s I didn't think could handle the content of the degrees and men at 100 who have a lot to teach about the content of the degrees.


This.  My understanding of the prohibition on making Masons of "old men in dotage" has to do with the "free will and accord" requirement.  If a man is so addled by age-related dementia that you don't believe he truly is able to understand what he is obligating himself to, you should not make him a Mason.  If you believe that he is able to understand the obligation, then dotage doesn't come into play.

In addition, unless he clearly signals that he is only joining to get to the Shrine, you should not assign some "suspicion" to him and assume "facts not in evidence."


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## Go49ersuk (Mar 22, 2014)

We had an initiate who was 83, he enjoyed masonry for 7 years before going to the Grand Lodge above. He even enjoyed 12 months as a steward. His ritual was pretty good as well.


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## Pscyclepath (Mar 23, 2014)

Last Saturday I had the privilege of conferring the Master's degree on an 82-year-old brother... I had done his EA back last November, and all of his lectures and mentoring.  Brother B wasn't able to memorize and repeat back the lecture word-perfect, but he was able to prove a working knowledge of the information.  The fellow is mentally sharp, it's jutst that short-term memory centers sometimes get affected as we grow older.  I lost both my parents in the past few years to Alzheimers and stroke-induced dementia, so to me, "dotage" means that the person is mentally impaired to an extent where he (or she) is unable to make reasonable decisions on their own behalf.  Mere age is not that much of a factor as is mental capacity and the ability to make reasoned decisions.


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