The Eagle Feather.

[Bloke]

This just came of of another post
http://www.freemasonryresearchforumqsa.com/the-eagle-feather.php
http://www.freemasonryresearchforumqsa.com/the-eagle-feather.php

Sad state of affairs.

Me, never ask a question you dont know what the answer is and it's better to beg forgiveness than ask for permission. That said, I can well understand the brother feeling the need to the use of the Eagle Feather sanctioned by GL.

I think I would have suggested to the bro, he be obligated on a VSL with a feather on top between the VSL and his hand.... or is that just naughty ?

 

[pointwithinacircle2]

The VSL can only be a book, and the Lost Masonic Word can only be a verbal utterance. Did I get that right?

 

[Glen Cook]

I did not read all of the link. Too many antics with the type face. I did note the intemperate tone. As one who dealt with the Fraternity's perception of my faith, it is not productive. This is also a year old.

The use of the term "pagan" was unfortunate, but the ruling in my estimation is correct. The feather is not a Volume of the Sacred Law. I would question whether such use would meet the CGMNA standard of recognition.

 

[Bloke]

Hi Glen.

Given your experience, I'm asking for an off the cuff, non-binding opinion on two situations

1. Would a "Pagan" with an established VSL (no idea what would be... looked it up) like the Book of Shadows qualify if the candidate confirmed a belief in a Supreme Being and nominated the Book of Shadows as their VSL ? Or is the VSL irrelavant the "Paganism" the issue ?
   
2. Would a Zoroastrian who nominated the Avesta qualify as a candidate ?

(and I am assuming the lodge was in full support of initiation of the hypothetical person above).

No doubt this has been considered (faced) before..

(and perhaps i should have put this in the jurisprudence section - i would be happy to see it moved it a mod thinks it should).

 

[Glen Cook]

Is the Book of Shadows considered by its adherents the revealed word of God/Deity/Supreme Being? Or is it just a book of purported spells? That, in my view, is the problem with the feather. While it may be considered as a means of accessing the Divine Will, like a Urim and Thummin, it does not contain, as I understand it, the knowledge provided by the Great Spirit to his children.

 

[Glen Cook]

As to Zorastrianism, I understand the Avesta to contain hymns attributed to the prophet Zoraster. If Ahura Mazda is considered a Supreme Being, would this meet the qualifications for membership and a VSL?

 

[Bloke]

Thanks Bro Glen. I think the Avesta is an easy one and yes is the answer. The other, not so sure.

Thanks

 

[dfreybur]

Would a "Pagan" with an established VSL (no idea what would be... looked it up) like the Book of Shadows qualify if the candidate confirmed a belief in a Supreme Being and nominated the Book of Shadows as their VSL ? Or is the VSL irrelavant the "Paganism" the issue ?

I read the article and I can't say I care about most of the issues discussed. Before petitioning I checked carefully that Masonry actually practices freedom of religion and had I encountered such issues I never would have turned in my petition. All religious questions can be answered simply - Live up to our principles.

As to Book of Shadows that's usually done by one individual and as such no two are alike. I don't have any issue with that because an oath is an oath is an oath to me but there is no mechanism to approve such a class of books. Is approval needed? I've never been convinced approval is needed. I dispute the notion that either permission is needed or that forgiveness applies.

There are pagan and heathen paths with definite VSLs and ones without. Whether Hindu counts as pagan or heathen is open to discussion but I have been to a degree with a Bagavat Gita. I've never been to an obligation for a Shinto brother and don't know what book would be used but there are plenty of Shinto brothers in the world. I'm not sure Four Branches counts for most Druids as it's not clear they have a definite VSL. I know Druid, Asatru and Wiccan brothers none of whom requested the Poetic Edda, Four Branches or Shadows.

The issue I have with the feather is it's not book. Bring a book of his tribe's myths with the feather in it. I grew up near Seneca and I'd be able to find such a book quickly. I have no idea why that simple solution was not used.

A book is largely irrelevant because to pagans and heathens of every path I've ever heard of an oath is an oath is an oath. Taken sincerely oaths do not need a book. That should be true of all good men but discussions on the point tend to suggest otherwise for certain individuals. The book is an amplifier when it comes to oaths not a requirement. The book is a requirement for lodge to be open not for the oath to be binding. As such I don't yet know of any pagan or heathen brother who requested their book yet I know numerous brothers of pagan and heathen religions.

When I took my EA degree I had no idea there was going to be an altar with a Bible. When I was told to kneel and put my hands on the Bible for my obligation I thought it was very nice that there was a Bible there. It never occurred to me that I could have asked to use one of my copies of the Poetic Edda for my FC and MM obligations. To me an oath is an oath is an oath and I don't need a book as an accelerator. Plus requesting my own book pushed close to introducing the topic of sectarian religion so I never thought to ask.

Would a Zoroastrian who nominated the Avesta qualify as a candidate ?

Grand Lodge of California has a list of pre-approved VSLs and a mechanism to add books. The Zen Avesta was in the original pre-approved list. I am not convinced that permission is needed to use a book but it's nice to know what to offer when a candidate comes forward.

 

[Bloke]

When I took my EA degree I had no idea there was going to be an altar with a Bible. When I was told to kneel and put my hands on the Bible for my obligation I thought it was very nice that there was a Bible there. It never occurred to me that I could have asked to use one of my copies of the Poetic Edda for my FC and MM obligations. To me an oath is an oath is an oath and I don't need a book as an accelerator. Plus requesting my own book pushed close to introducing the topic of sectarian religion so I never thought to ask..

Thanks Doug - to my mind Pagan and Heathen all both relatives terms. I have a good Muslim friend and he often described me as an Infidel and I call him Pagan... Likewise I have other good Christian friends I call heretics... We laugh about this understanding that religion is often a function of culture and geography. If I'd been born in Mecca, chances are I would be Muslim. We should meet all these faith on the level without feeling our own is threatened... I have a faith that these problems are the GAOTU and he/she/it can sort it out... On a sort of similar note recently a new WM was obligating two candidates and asked them for their names and they only gave their first rather than full name. One PM was very upset and I simply replied I thought regardless, the GAOTU had their number....

(Oh, and I used the word "Pagan" because that's how some folk identify themselves, not in consideration of how others may identify another's faith).

Describing a VSL as an "amplifier" is interesting. I dont really think about it, but if look you in the eye and promise something, if the VSL is or is not there, it makes no difference.. my word is my word, so we are from the same school, but I know humans are fragile creatures and if push came to shove, having promised something over my VSL, I think I would be less likely to crumble under pressure.. but this also comes from someone who once chaired a meeting of 150 people and casually unequivocally stated "X will happen" and as soon as I said it, said to myself SH#T, I just made a promise, and spent the next 4 years of my free time making sure I delivered on it.

It is interesting that the VSL was not discussed prior to your initiation. It's a must here, they last thing one would want to do is make an assumption which gives offense.

Like you, I think the OP did not circumscribe his passions. No did they take the time to reflect on this and look for solutions.

I guess if the requirement is to take an obligation on a book, then that's what is required, but like you Doug, I can see ways to meet both needs.

 

[dfreybur]

Thanks Doug - to my mind Pagan and Heathen all both relatives terms.

There's the dictionary definition and there's who actually uses the words for themselves.

On a sort of similar note recently a new WM was obligating two candidates and asked them for their names and they only gave their first rather than full name. One PM was very upset and I simply replied I thought regardless, the GAOTU had their number....

California ritual has a note to handle this. The candidate is asked for his name in full. It can happen that a candidate with no middle name says "That was my name in full". The obligator is supposed to check that before the degree.

Describing a VSL as an "amplifier" is interesting.

It never occurred to me that some good men would care if there's a book under their hand or what book it is. It's like looking for a loophole to me. I just don't get how the book would be viewed as anything other than an amplifier. As it says in the lecture everything around the altar are details to stress the sanctity of the oath. That and the book being the one known by the local majority is a matter of adding comfort.

It is interesting that the VSL was not discussed prior to your initiation. It's a must here, they last thing one would want to do is make an assumption which gives offense.

My mother jurisdiction asks if I believe in the existence of a supreme being. I said yes. They ask for character references. The investigating committee asked my character references if I have a reputation for honesty. They said yes. That was the end of any religious discussion.

I decided to go in cold because I was aware that initiations have the most emotional and spiritual impact when taken cold for the surprise. So the only questions I asked were what I should wear, what fees I should pay, when I should present myself.

Like you, I think the OP did not circumscribe his passions. No did they take the time to reflect on this and look for solutions.

Exactly. Put the eagle feather in a book. Done.

Then again I read the article's report on the discussion. If I'd been exposed to such a discussion during my progress from petition through raising I too would have walked away saying "lip service". The discussion in the article made it clear the grand officers in that jurisdiction did not life up to our principles of freedom of religion.

 

[Bloke]

The discussion in the article made it clear the grand officers in that jurisdiction did not life up to our principles of freedom of religion.

Read like all parties sounded like they had a very dogmatic approach

On the Ob., here was have "Say I and state your names at length.." and the WM should wait for the response.... but your confirmation sounds good, WMs will often do it informally though....

 

[Warrior1256]

This is unlike anything I have encountered in Masonry.

 

[Ripcord22A]

I agree that the feather is not a VSL

 

[Warrior1256]

The feather is not a Volume of the Sacred Law. I would question whether such use would meet the CGMNA standard of recognition.

I agree that the feather is not a VSL

I agree.