Playing Devils advocate

[MasterBulldawg]

I have a few questions on the gay issue if you want to answer.

1 what is your definition of a man?


2 what is the reason for women not being allowed to join?


3 what would you say if a Transgender person wants to join?


4 what group of people are you prejudiced against?


I see this issue as being a Pandora's box for freemasonry with no answer the going to satisfy everyone.

 

[Ripcord22A]

I have a few questions on the gay issue if you want to answer.

1 what is your definition of a man?


2 what is the reason for women not being allowed to join?


3 what would you say if a Transgender person wants to join?


4 what group of people are you prejudiced against?


I see this issue as being a Pandora's box for freemasonry with no answer the going to satisfy everyone.

1: some one born with the Male chromisomes; and is still living as a man...IE; Bruce Jenner is not a man

2: We are a FRATernaty not a SORORity

3: I would vote against it 100% of the time

4: Other branches of the Military that arent Army...lol For real though I am not prejudice against anyone just cause they belong to a certain group. I do believe that sterotypes exist for a reason though.

 

[dfreybur]

1 what is your definition of a man?

Human. I try, not always successfully, to use the word in a gender independent way when not at lodge.

2 what is the reason for women not being allowed to join?

Substantive social changes when women are present. Men behave differently in male only groups.

It used to be that women had many choices of female only networking groups in which to teach each other the nature of femininity but men had few choices of male only networking groups in which to teach each other masculinity. Sadly, very many of the former options for women have evaporated.

I am also comfortable with the fact that Comasonry meets over their and female only Masonry meets over in that other place. There are a hundred or a thousand of us for every one of them so I'm not worried about a tempest in a teapot.

3 what would you say if a Transgender person wants to join?

I hope I'm not present when the investigation or ballot happens. I know that my intellect says grant this person sanctuary. I know outside of lodge i'm not bothered at all. I would rather not test my heart at the ballot box though.

4 what group of people are you prejudiced against?

Non-observant fundies of any religion. Those who use their religion as if it were a political platform to exclude or oppress. There's enough overlap between those sets they may seem alternative phrasing of the same idea.

Tyrants, their thugs and dupes.

 

[hanzosbm]

I have a few questions on the gay issue if you want to answer.

1 what is your definition of a man?

An X and Y chromosome

2 what is the reason for women not being allowed to join?

That's a difficult question. If you're asking why they originally weren't allowed to join, I could take a few stabs, but they'd all be conjecture. If you're asking why they're not allowed now, it's because it is one of the landmarks of Freemasonry.

3 what would you say if a Transgender person wants to join?

No. Either it is a woman (2 X chromosomes) wanting to join, in which case she is not a man, or it is/was a man (an X and Y chromosome) that has chosen to no longer identify as a man. It's similar to being a US citizen by way of birth. Someone from another country can't just decide they're a US citizen, but a native born US citizen can abandon their citizenship.

4 what group of people are you prejudiced against?

I would slightly reword this and say that I am prejudiced towards everyone. Prejudging is just making a judgment without having 100% of the information. If I see someone walking down the street dressed in a black leather jacket and carrying a helmet, I would probably make a prejudgment that they ride a motorcycle. Why did I come to that conclusion? Because of a stereotypes. Stereotypes can be good, bad, or neutral, but regardless of their form, to me, the important thing is how we act on them. If someone looks at me as a tall, white guy with glasses and makes the prejudgment that I'm a nerd, that's fine PROVIDED that they are willing to adjust that view after getting more information. We make assumptions about all kinds of things in our daily lives, including people, and those assumptions do shape our actions. I don't have a problem with that since we all have to make decisions based on limited information by filling in the gaps based on either past experiences, stereotypes, or something else, but we need to have the capacity to recognize that those assumptions are just that, and are not facts.
If a man with a big mustache wearing cut off jean shorts and a rainbow striped tubetop comes skipping down the sidewalk towards me, I'm going to make the assumption that he's gay. I'm further going to stereotype him by assuming he is interested in interior decorating (something which I have no interest in discussing). But, if when he reaches me, he asks me if I saw the football game last night and strikes up a conversation about it, then right on.
I think we're so conditioned to think that prejudice means hateful that it has become a bad word and everyone wants to act like they never make judgments about others. Judgments are okay, hate is not.

 

[CLewey44]

I have a few questions on the gay issue if you want to answer.

1 what is your definition of a man?


2 what is the reason for women not being allowed to join?


3 what would you say if a Transgender person wants to join?


4 what group of people are you prejudiced against?


I see this issue as being a Pandora's box for freemasonry with no answer the going to satisfy everyone.

1. A man takes care of his $***. Takes care of the weak. Doesn't cause drama and keeps his cool. Works hard and doesn't take advantage of the weak. Lives as a male (or man). Recognizes himself as a man. Dresses as a man. I don't care who he's sleeping with as long as they are a consenting adult. In all honesty, if Chaz Bono walked into a lodge and petitioned, nobody would ever know he was born a woman.

2. I think, as others have said, women were thought of as lower than men were. They weren't on the level. That's still prevalent in some parts of the world but I would say the main reason women aren't allowed to join now, at least in the U.S., is because most men don't want their wives going with them to lodge. They want that as their own private time. Understandably so, it's some men's only "guy" time.

I wouldn't mind an all female version of Masonry, but different. Different name, concept, ritual and all of that. It could be just as deep and spiritual as Masonry, but different modes of recognition and different degrees. I honestly feel women are short-ended in that regard. Sure, there's OES and Amaranth and a few others but they are cloaked in one-sided religiousness that is to make women feel they aren't doing something God wouldn't like and keeps them at ease. But really it's a slap in their faces saying they couldn't handle something that was not strictly Biblically based.

3. If it was a woman who was now a man that wanted to join, looked the part, they are 'legally' considered a man on their ID, and they believed in a Supreme Being, were a good person, not a former drug addict or felon; I wouldn't have a problem with giving them a white ball. Not the other way around though. A person born a man living as a woman? No because they recognize as a woman and that'd be one disadvantage of doing so I guess; not being able to become a Freemason.

4. I am prejudiced against racists and bigots....and people that have a cold or flu...stay away from me....

 

[Ripcord22A]

3. If it was a woman who was now a man that wanted to join, looked the part, they are 'legally' considered a man on their ID, and they believed in a Supreme Being, were a good person, not a former drug addict or felon; I wouldn't have a problem with giving them a white ball. Not the other way around though. A person born a man living as a woman? No because they recognize as a woman and that'd be one disadvantage of doing so I guess; not being able to become a Freemason.

Bro, I respect your opinion but let me ask you something, What if that same person was preop? still had all the woman parts? Also just because they identify as a man and their ID card says male does not, in my opinion make them a man.

One other question, If you have a daughter and she comes home from High School and tells you that their school is now allowing students that claim to ID as the opposite sex use the locker room and bathrooms of the sex they ID as, and there are about 10 males that claim to ID as girls that will be showering with and sharing a locker room with your daighter, would you be ok with that? I know that when i was in HS if my school had put that out, there would have been about 100 dudes caliming they were girls so they could get a peak in the girls lockerroom

 

[acjohnson53]

like golf, guys only ladies forbidden..

 

[CLewey44]

Bro, I respect your opinion but let me ask you something, What if that same person was preop? still had all the woman parts? Also just because they identify as a man and their ID card says male does not, in my opinion make them a man.

One other question, If you have a daughter and she comes home from High School and tells you that their school is now allowing students that claim to ID as the opposite sex use the locker room and bathrooms of the sex they ID as, and there are about 10 males that claim to ID as girls that will be showering with and sharing a locker room with your daighter, would you be ok with that? I know that when i was in HS if my school had put that out, there would have been about 100 dudes caliming they were girls so they could get a peak in the girls lockerroom

I feel you on that but people are more comfortable than ever with being themselves so it'll eventually be an issue. Maybe in 100 years but at some point it will. I don't know the legality of that subject, but I'd think to be 'legally' considered a male on your ID, then that person would have to be post-op. I'm not sure but like I said, most of you wouldn't even know the difference and I don't think a "junk" check would ever be in order before one is initiated lol. If you did suspect someone was a woman, then you'd blackball them. That's it.

As for the HS point, I don't think anyone in their right mind would go around dressing and acting like a girl to the point of legally being a 'female' just to take a peak at girls in the shower. Also, allowing transgender to shower with other students is not even in the ballpark as to what we're talking about on here and I don't think 10 guys would be doing that. Totally apples and oranges.

 

[dfreybur]

BWhat if that same person was preop?

I sure hope such a situation, which is going to eventually come up somewhere, is handled by the investigating committee. Offer to return the petition and suggest they try again at some point in the future where being a male does not get an unambiguous answer. IF the jurisdiction's rules allow any petition to be withdrawn.

I also hope that I don't have to face the ballot box in such an occurrence. Being post-op would be difficult enough to sort through my intellect and emotions on the topic.

 

[MasterBulldawg]

Thank you all for your time this has been enlightening.

 

[Glen Cook]

There is all women Freemasonry

 

[Bloke]

1 what is your definition of a man?
I am going to read that, "what is your definition of a male". For me, male genitalia only. ("only" because of hermaphrodites which in a masonic context is not acknowledged in our rules).

"A man" is much more complex as it is to attitude and character when used in a traditional sense.


2 what is the reason for women not being allowed to join?
Tradition, it's a fraternity, but in staying so it creates a unique environment for male intimacy which is like no other I have experienced.


3 what would you say if a Transgender person wants to join?
See answer 1


4 what group of people are you prejudiced against?
Hmm... I try to curb my passions on stupid people. Often I know I make assumptions based on people's accents and that is wrong. We always need to size up people by how they treat those around them... but always using tolerance, acceptance and forgiveness.

Less "prejudice" but more "discriminating" I try to surround myself with humans who are of good character and central to that is how honest they are and how they treat those around them.

 

[Brother JC]

I suppose it comes down to whether the GAOTU is male or female or both.

Anthropomorphizing Deity is a combination of human vanity and the need to rationalize that which we can't understand. Like morality it is purely subjective.
Deity isn't male or female, Deity Is.

 

[Ripcord22A]

Anthropomorphizing Deity is a combination of human vanity and the need to rationalize that which we can't understand. Like morality it is purely subjective.
Deity isn't male or female, Deity Is.

But if deity was female men would get periods....lol

Sent from my LG-D415 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app

 

[Warrior1256]

That's a difficult question. If you're asking why they originally weren't allowed to join, I could take a few stabs, but they'd all be conjecture. If you're asking why they're not allowed now, it's because it is one of the landmarks of Freemasonry.

Agreed.

No. Either it is a woman (2 X chromosomes) wanting to join, in which case she is not a man, or it is/was a man (an X and Y chromosome) that has chosen to no longer identify as a man. It's similar to being a US citizen by way of birth. Someone from another country can't just decide they're a US citizen, but a native born US citizen can abandon their citizenship.

I had not thought of this before but it makes sense to me.