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admarcus1

Registered User
You've never studied any biology at all in your entire life, I take it.

1: Vaccines also exist for bacterial diseases, NOT JUST VIRAL.
2: The VAST MAJORITY of vaccines are not live vaccines. They are either subunit or "inactive" (dead) vaccines. The "live" pathogen is usually not necessary for successful vaccination. THIS HAS BEEN KNOWN FOR MANY DECADES AND CAN VERY EASILY BE FOUND IN ANY NON-CRACKPOT SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON VACCINES.
3: MOST VACCINES DO NOT CONTAIN LIVE ANYTHING, and some viruses and bacteria can be dormant for YEARS. THEY DO NOT HAVE TO BE FED!

Do not make decisions about medicine if you are so fundamentally ignorant of such basic medical concepts.

Deduction is garbage in, garbage out. You start with pure garbage as your premises. You get pure garbage as your conclusions.

One must acknowledge that the MMR vaccine (the one most identified as the culprit by anti-vaxxers when it comes to autism) is a live vaccine. Live, weakened measles, mumps, and rubella virus is injected. It infects some cells which then produce antibodies to the three viruses, destroying them, with the wonderful additional benefit of rendering the injectee immune to the non-weakened virus. Is there a risk to the use of these live viruses? Of course. There is nothing in medicine, or in life, that is risk free. The CDC website enumerates those risks quite clearly (and they are small). I suppose a reasonable parent may not consider those risks acceptable. Just as state and local governments may consider the risk of having unvaccinated children in the school to be an unacceptable risk to other students. Many pediatricians will not accept children in their practices who don't get vaccinated because of the risk they pose to other patients. Its all about risk, but it must be based on empirical evidence.

As for the following: "After all it is only through the faculties of deductive and inductive reasoning that one uncovers truths...per my good friend Rene Descartes."

That is a great quote, and it is the BEGINNING of science. This is where science and philosophy part ways. Reasoning, whether deductive and inductive, is not enough. Reasoning is used to generate hypotheses about how the world works (or really how some small part of the world works). Science then requires that you collect empirical data to see if your hypothesis can be supported. If it cannot (as in the link between vaccines and autism), then the hypothesis must be discarded. Reason can then be used to try and determine where the hypothesis went wrong, and develop to new and better hypotheses. In fact, much of what scientist do every day is try to figure out why what they thought would work, didn't.

 

Brother_Steve

Premium Member
I think we need to circumscribe ourselves, have the weekend and come back fresh.

While the education is great, it sometimes gets buried in the voice of the reader instead of the voice of the writer. Well thought out replies can be misinterpreted and the thread goes to the moon...:29:
 

admarcus1

Registered User
I think we need to circumscribe ourselves, have the weekend and come back fresh.

While the education is great, it sometimes gets buried in the voice of the reader instead of the voice of the writer. Well thought out replies can be misinterpreted and the thread goes to the moon...:29:


Wise words, Brother. I hope you all have a great weekend. For any of you Massachusetts Masons in the greater Boston area, the Fifth District Blood Drive is this Saturday at 8 am at the Newtonville Masonic Apartments, 460 Newtonville Ave, Newtonville, MA. A hot breakfast will be served.
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
As for the following: "After all it is only through the faculties of deductive and inductive reasoning that one uncovers truths...per my good friend Rene Descartes."

That is a great quote, and it is the BEGINNING of science.


It's not even the beginning of science. Observation is the beginning of science. Deduction comes after observation. The observation comes first and all deductions (and inductions) must be checked against observations.

Reasoning is used to generate hypotheses about how the world works (or really how some small part of the world works).

And even then, the reasoning cannot begin until something has been observed about which one reasons.

 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
We have to be tolerant

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No. We are asked to be tolerant. It is still a choice though. At least, at this point in time.

Furthermore, we should exercise tolerance discriminately, just as other options such as "Acceptance; Resistance; Rejection".
 
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rebis

Premium Member
I was obviously referring to live viral vaccines. Which is clearly inferred by the words live and virus.

Going on about dead viruses and bacterial viruses is a divergent tangent.

I am not getting much love on this thread so I am going to move on.

I suggest reviewing you degree proficiencies.

Good day gentlemen.



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admarcus1

Registered User
It's not even the beginning of science. Observation is the beginning of science. Deduction comes after observation. The observation comes first and all deductions (and inductions) must be checked against observations.



And even then, the reasoning cannot begin until something has been observed about which one reasons.

[/COLOR]

Quite right, Brother. I stand corrected. My job involves study design and data analysis. I can get so focused on my own part of the process that it is easy to forget all the work that is done upstream, and that the hypotheses we are asked to investigate don't just come out of nowhere.
 
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jjjjjggggg

Premium Member
Don't lodge meetings get more spirited than this? Id say this has been pretty tame considering. Haven't brothers been known to argue and bicker every once and while? I've even been in a few fists fights with my biological brother, but we still love each other.

If you aren't willing to defend your position then don't play the game. There is just way too much scientific data and consensus for this to even be a rational argument. Even anti-vaccination queen Jenny McCarthy is back peddling on her stance. No one here is saying that vaccinations don't come with risks, but no one can deny their efficacy.


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JohnnyFlotsam

Premium Member
So when people of equal intellect are presented the same evidence will they all always arrive at the same consensus?
Take city counsel members or supreme court judges as an example...even though they all are presented the same evidence do they all conclude or judge the case in the same manner? Should the dissenting voices be labeled and categorized as foolish for perceiving or interpreting evidence differently?

In cases where the evidence is abundant and incontrovertible, as in the case of the efficacy of vaccination for common contagious diseases, there can be only one rational conclusion. Making another conclusion is, to say the least, foolish. We are not talking about a matter of "perception" or opinion here, so stop trying to conflate cases like this with those that genuinely do allow for differences of opinion.
 

admarcus1

Registered User
When the risks presented by failing to be vaccinated are far, far greater, refusing to accept the risks of vaccination is anything but reasonable.

I suppose I was trying to be charitable. It can be difficult to intuitively evaluate competing risks. To give just two examples, people tend to have a greater fear of flying in an airplane that driving in their car, despite the fact that the risk of death in a car accident is far higher. When it comes to the risks of smoking, people are much more concerned about lung cancer than heart disease, even though smoking-related deaths do to excess heart disease far outnumbers lung cancer deaths. People tend to focus on the most visible, immediate risks. The damage done by measles, whooping cough, polio, etc is to most people today, history. Rash and high fever in your child is real and immediate to people. I do not defend the decision to forgo vaccination, but I understand it. That is why discussions such as this one are important. People need to be educated on this issue. Unfortunately, the media does a very poor job of this, presenting every opinion as equally valid.

And yes, the moon landing was real. If you like a good fake space mission conspiracy story, though, check out the movie Capricorn One. It is great 70s fun, with the added bonus of OJ Simpson in a dramatic role. Also with Elliot Gould and Telly Savalas.
 

JohnnyFlotsam

Premium Member
I suppose I was trying to be charitable. It can be difficult to intuitively evaluate competing risks..

And that, as others have already observed here, is the saddest thing; that far too many people allow things other than reason to cloud there judgement. There's a word for that. The word is "superstition". Yes, I am aware that superstition and "faith" are pretty much interchangeable in many contexts, so let's confine the context to "where irrational beliefs present a real risk of physical harm to self or others". Belief in power of salvation through Holy Communion (for example) then, is faith. Belief in the power of salvation through the handling of venomous snakes, no so much.

Superstitious people live in fear and ignorance, which sucks all by itself, but worse, such people are all too easy to manipulate. I am forever at a loss to explain why otherwise reasonable people will latch on to some nut-ball notion or theory and refuse, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, to let go. I suppose the "cognitive dissonance" thing goes a long way towards explaining it, but not completely, not to my satisfaction at least. At any rate, the phenomenon is as troubling as it is fascinating, for reasons not the least of which is that such people are still allowed to vote and hold public office.
 
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