Dining Area in Lodge

[Plustax]

Are there lodges in Texas that permit use of their Dining areas for "other" organizations? Of course understanding that no alcohol use is permitted. We are being asked if the local Boy Scouts can use our lodge dining area (only) for their meetings.

 

[Plustax]

Just no sure if GLoT permits this. I don't see anything in the Law Book.

 

[MRichard]

Are there lodges in Texas that permit use of their Dining areas for "other" organizations? Of course understanding that no alcohol use is permitted. We are being asked if the local Boy Scouts can use our lodge dining area (only) for their meetings.

@Bill Lins might know or have your secretary contact the Grand Secretary or go through the proper chain of command.

 

[Benjamin Baxter]

I am a member of a few Texas lodges and 3 of them do this on a regular basis. I even know of some lodges that rent some space of there lodge building as office space. The dining area is not the lodge room. You could even rent it to them and get some extra cash flow or they could clean it for you as payment. I would not allow them in the lodge room its self unless you are there...

But brother Bill Lins will know the real deal....

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[Bloke]

I'm naughty and have this view... better to ask for forgiveness than permission ... esp on something so mutually beneficial and benevolent.

 

[Bill Lins]

OK, y'all- here's the skinny. GM's Decision 2002-#6 holds that a Lodge may allow a Boy Scout troop to use the dining room (but NOT the Lodgeroom or anterooms) under the following conditions:
1. The Brethren vote to approve such use @ a stated meeting,
2. The Scouts may NOT use the dining room while the Lodgeroom is being used, be it for a stated or called meeting or during funerals.

Other GM Decisions prohibit such usage on a regular basis on Sundays (special meetings may be allowed) and require a Lodge member to be present whenever a non-Masonic group is using the facility.

 

[Bloke]

OK, y'all- here's the skinny. GM's Decision 2002-#6 holds that a Lodge may allow a Boy Scout troop to use the dining room (but NOT the Lodgeroom or anterooms) under the following conditions:
1. The Brethren vote to approve such use @ a stated meeting,
2. The Scouts may NOT use the dining room while the Lodgeroom is being used, be it for a stated or called meeting or during funerals.

Other GM Decisions prohibit such usage on a regular basis on Sundays (special meetings may be allowed) and require a Lodge member to be present whenever a non-Masonic group is using the facility.

That's a bit of an obstacle to integrating with the community.... i've brought in over $300k rent because I don't have to operate within those sort of rules, which just make things hard..

 

[MarkR]

That's a bit of an obstacle to integrating with the community.... i've brought in over $300k rent because I don't have to operate within those sort of rules, which just make things hard..

Yeah, we have very few rules about how we can use our building. No alcohol in the actual lodge room, but that's about it. We can rent out the dining area and kitchen to whomever we wish, and if they have a caterer with a liquor license, they can have alcohol there. We're in a university town, and we rent to fraternities and sororities for their initiations, and they even use the lodge room. We aren't making anywhere near the money you're talking about, but the rules are pretty lax about what we can do with our building.

 

[acjohnson53]

I have visited in the past where some Lodges prepared dinner in the Lodge, good meals I might add, for a minimul price...some Brothers would come in a few hours early and put it down....You remember I was in the military, and a lot of the Brothers work in the d-fac.....(mess hall)

 

[Companion Joe]

I'm not in Texas, but here is something just for perspective:
(I'm not sure if it's a hard state GL rule, just a suggestion, or just our setup)
The way our insurance and liability works is we can't use our building or grounds for anything non-Masonic. It can't be rented or loaned out. Period. If I - as a PM, trustee, and building and grounds member with a key to all the doors - wanted to host a reception in the dining hall for my parents who happen to be a 50-year Mason and member of the Star, I couldn't do it.

 

[Bloke]

I'm not in Texas, but here is something just for perspective:
(I'm not sure if it's a hard state GL rule, just a suggestion, or just our setup)
The way our insurance and liability works is we can't use our building or grounds for anything non-Masonic. It can't be rented or loaned out. Period. If I - as a PM, trustee, and building and grounds member with a key to all the doors - wanted to host a reception in the dining hall for my parents who happen to be a 50-year Mason and member of the Star, I couldn't do it.

Get a new insurance policy

Really, GL's and Freemasons often get so focused on cost cutting they loose sight of the fact what really can be easily nudged for health is income. We've covered, but the moment our GL decided to get a cheaper policy where we're not, we'll opt out and get our own..

 

[Scoops]

Our building is used for many events from conferences to weddings and there is full catering facilities and a bar on the premises. One of the two Temple rooms is even licensed for civil wedding ceremonies.

http://www.cheshireview.co.uk/

The building is owned jointly by the nearly 3 dozen Craft lodges and other Chapters, Councils etc. that meet there.

 

[Bloke]

Our building is used for many events from conferences to weddings and there is full catering facilities and a bar on the premises. One of the two Temple rooms is even licensed for civil wedding ceremonies.

http://www.cheshireview.co.uk/

The building is owned jointly by the nearly 3 dozen Craft lodges and other Chapters, Councils etc. that meet there.

Great to see a decent web site ! well done !!!!!!

 

[Scoops]

Great to see a decent web site ! well done !!!!!!

Haha, thanks. I'd love to take credit for that but it's managed by the building'ss management team which is a separate legal entity to the Lodges, who are the shareholders.

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[Bloke]

Haha, thanks. I'd love to take credit for that but it's managed by the building'ss management team which is a separate legal entity to the Lodges, who are the shareholders.

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Looks like they're going a great job of it... its rare here to find lodges doing a good job of running buildings..they need to focus on Freemasonry and a separate group outside lodge time is always they way to go...

 

[MarkR]

Looks like they're going a great job of it... its rare here to find lodges doing a good job of running buildings..they need to focus on Freemasonry and a separate group outside lodge time is always they way to go...

The problem, at least for us, is that if the building is "owned" by some outside entity (even if that outside entity is a "legal fiction" made up entirely of Masons) that rents it to the Lodge, then it's taxed as income property, rather than at a much lower rate for a fraternal organization.

 

[Companion Joe]

I guess taxes are another issue for us. We don't pay property tax. Our lodge sits on a large chunk of land in the middle of what has grown up to be the major commercial stretch in town. If we turned a profit somehow and had to pay commercial income and property tax, I'm sure it would be five figures.

 

[dfreybur]

The problem, at least for us, is that if the building is "owned" by some outside entity (even if that outside entity is a "legal fiction" made up entirely of Masons) that rents it to the Lodge, then it's taxed as income property, rather than at a much lower rate for a fraternal organization.

Perspectives vary - To me that's an advantage not a disadvantage.

My mother lodge and one of the other lodges in our district own buildings that are nice enough to rent out for a positive cash flow. My mother lodge's building is used for everything from weddings to TV episodes. The other building has a strip mall on the first floor. The fact that these buildings generate a positive cash flow makes them a foundation pillar for Masonry in the region.

My Illinois lodge worked to go off the tax roles. As a result we could only lease to fellow non-profits at rates far under market. Eventually the maintenance ate us and we had to sell the lot the building was on. We became tenants and having lost our location in our home town we eventually consolidated.

That difference in outcomes decades later is the result of staying on the tax roles and renting to commercial tenants. It's a huge difference. Masonry is for the ages - Please consider that when making decisions about buildings.

 

[Bloke]

Perspectives vary - To me that's an advantage not a disadvantage.

My mother lodge and one of the other lodges in our district own buildings that are nice enough to rent out for a positive cash flow. My mother lodge's building is used for everything from weddings to TV episodes. The other building has a strip mall on the first floor. The fact that these buildings generate a positive cash flow makes them a foundation pillar for Masonry in the region.

My Illinois lodge worked to go off the tax roles. As a result we could only lease to fellow non-profits at rates far under market. Eventually the maintenance ate us and we had to sell the lot the building was on. We became tenants and having lost our location in our home town we eventually consolidated.

That difference in outcomes decades later is the result of staying on the tax roles and renting to commercial tenants. It's a huge difference. Masonry is for the ages - Please consider that when making decisions about buildings.

Yep...its a great trap, trying to minimize tax at the expense of income... it happens too frequently..... for me, I want to pay lots of tax, because it means we have lots of income and there is only two things which saves masonic buildings; positive cash surplus (after maintenance) and masons to meet in them...but really, if you want to preserve and improve your building and maintenance is a pre-tax expense... even if we make $500K PA, we could spend it on our building for a few years then re-evaluate.. The key is to look at it with a financial eye looking at financial outcome, the bottom line... If you double insurance from $2K to $4K, offer to external parties and raise only $400 per week (about $20K PA), increase your land tax by $5K, your still $13K better off PA. With this approach, I've saved two masonic buildings which surely would not have been sold due to insolvency.. and in doing that, created a project and point of pride for lodges, which helped save them...

 

[MarkR]

Ah, but once you make it income property, you pay property tax at that rate whether you have tenants or not. I've seen plenty of Masonic centers with vacant office space, paying high property taxes. We explored getting full-time renters for part of our building, and it went nowhere. A couple of nibbles, but no renters. There are plenty of shiny new office buildings downtown that have space available.

I wasn't saying that lodges shouldn't do that, and I know that some are very successful. I was more responding to the idea of having some outside management group take care of the building and rent it to the lodge. That puts you in the "income property" category, even though nothing but the Masonic Lodge is housed in the building. If the Lodge owns the building, it's taxed at a fraternal organization rate. Your mileage may vary.