What is 'clandestine'?

[Rifleman1776]

By my question, I am wondering just what makes an entity, or group, clandestine?
We have a sad situation in Arkansas where several years ago the GM declared the Shrine clandestine. Quite a few MMs have been expelled just for being members of the Shrine. Many others demited out and joined lodges in other states before being expelled. Can a GM declare anything he wants as clandestine? e.g. can he declare the Saturday mens bowling league clandestine just because he wants to? Or the Methodist church? And does such declaration die when his term expires or continue forever? It is a sad situation here. We have some lodges in Arkansas that will allow an MM who is also a Shriner to sit in lodge but others will not allow a Shriner in the door. It is hurting everyone. Did I say sad? Yes, it is. I cannot even enter the lodge I was raised in and where many of my friends are members. :RpS_confused:
Edit: I should mention, I am a Shriner, demited out of my Arkansas lodge and now belong to a lodge in Missouri where I, and others, are welcomed as Brothers should be.

 

[Mike Martin]

Here in England we don't have the Shrine and Appendant bodies are kept at arms length from Freemasonry so we are not likely to have a situation as occurred in your State. However, having read the detailed information supplied on the summation linked below the Grand Lodge acted fairly and within its power to disassociate itself from the Shrine. It is worth highlighting that it did NOT require any Master Masons to resign from the Shrine.

http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/Masonry/Reports/arkansas-shrine.html

 

[Rifleman1776]

There are simply too many misstatements and misleading statements in that letter to point by point respond to them all in detail. But, I will note the date which is about ten years prior to most of the current issues. The Arkansas law regarding sales of alcohol has been misrepresentated and improperly applied for many decades. Only OWNERS of entities engaged the business of alcohol sales are prevented from Masonic membership in Arkansas. But the misapplication that has gone on for those decades has wrongly treated anyone even close to the business, like clerks in stores. The Brother accused of selling alcohol (which actually was not a violation) had an open bar at his daughters wedding reception. It was not a violation. But, in Arkansas, the various former lodge WMs and former GMs are a close knit group that stands together regardless of what Brothers around the state want. Anything involving alcohol they automatically reject as Masonically illegal. I may respond further later. That letter dated ten years earlier than the incident in question is the biggest problem I have with that response. And, it does not address my question of what constitutes a 'clandestine' entity or how a WM has the power to so declare it. Please keep in mind Brother Mike, every state in America has it's own set of laws in Masonry. No general statements can be made without studying the laws of each state individually.

 

[Mike Martin]

So it would seem that you need to address the question to your own Grand Lodge as it has its own rules.

 

[RyanC]

When it comes to alcohol the Grand Lodges need to start treating it's members like man, no where ever did it stat in the old charges that a man can not have alcohol.

 

[Rifleman1776]

So it would seem that you need to address the question to your own Grand Lodge as it has its own rules.

As I said, I am no longer a member of the Arkansas Masonic family, I am a Missouri MM. The situation in Arkansas is the GM says whatever he says is law. To date none have challenged him/them but there are rumblings the next Grandl Lodge meeting may be historic.
For whatever it is worth, last year the Imperial Potentate had several prolonge discussions with the GM. The GM finally agreed to end the situation and permit Shriners to carry on as they had in the past. The only condition was that Shrine was to give all their money to the Grand Lodge. That sort of changed the meaning of 'brotherly love' in Arkansas.
As background, the only (valid) agreement between Grand Lodge and Shrine in Arkansas stated the two organizations would exist "in amity". That was never a problem and never challenged until the wedding reception incident. After that the GM claimed he had total authority over the lives of a MMs in Arkansas and could dictate activities the Shrine. Of course, the Shrine claimed they were a separate entity and not subject to the Grand Lodge or GM. When that happened the GM delcared Shrine "clandestine" and forbade all MMs from participating in any Shrine activities. That is when many Arkansas MMs demited out and transfered to other states.

 

[Rifleman1776]

When it comes to alcohol the Grand Lodges need to start treating it's members like man, no where ever did it stat in the old charges that a man can not have alcohol.

Agree. But this old law in Arkansas is unlikely to change anytime soon.

 

[BroBook]

That is a good question that I can not find a masonic answer for I was I , P & R in what I know now is considered irregular/ unrecognized or /clandestine, but the OB I took had that same restriction , while I was doing the work I found clandestine to mean hiding, but to any learned brothers what is this word and what does it mean? P.S. healing in process !!! I will be glad when it is complete!!!


Bro Book

 

[MarkR]

If an appendant/concordant body requires its members be Masons, then the Grand Lodge has a say in whether its members can belong. So the Shrine is different than a bowling league or your church.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Did he really say that?


Kind Regards,

Daryl Linkous

Admittedly it is second hand info. But at the rate he/they have been expelling MMs for where they go, who they associate with, what they imbibe, etc. I believe he believes it.

 

[Rifleman1776]

If an appendant/concordant body requires it's members be Masons, then the Grand Lodge has a say in whether its members can belong. So the Shrine is different than a bowling league or your church.

What does "appendant/concordant" body mean? The Arkansas Shrine existed "in amity" with Grand Lodge. What does that mean?

 

[Squire Bentley]

Clandestine refers to whether a Lodge or Grand Lodge has a duly accepted charter from a Masonic Body recognized world wide. Many times the rating of the UGLE is used to make this decision. Many clandestine Lodges and Grand Lodges have a civil state charter or corporation charter only but they do not have a charter issued by another recognized Grand Lodge. So clandestine has only to do with whether you are properly chartered. I often make the analogy with dogs. A mutt is a clandestine dog. It does not have papers. A pure bred AKC registered dog is not clandestine. It is all about pedigree.

Irregular is not practicing Freemasonry according to agreed upon standards. It could be admitting women, refusing to require a belief in Deity or not teaching the Hiramic legend. Regularity depends upon what country you are in as the definition of regularity can differ. Many again would use the standards of the UGLE as a guide.

It is possible to be duly chartered and therefore not clandestine but practice irregular Freemasonry. Many would say that the Grand Orient of France falls into this category. Conversely many clandestine Lodges and Grand Lodges practice regular Freemasonry.

Recognition is a third category. It refers to whether a Grand Lodge wants to have relations with another Grand Lodge. An unrecognized Grand Lodge could be both not clandestine and regular but a Grand Lodge might not want to recognize it just the same. In Texas for years the Grand Lodge of Texas regarded Texas Prince Hall as neither clandestine nor irregular but still refused to recognize it. That, of course, has changed.
Frederic L. Milliken
"The Beehive"

 

[Rifleman1776]

IMHO, that is a perfect definition. But, it still leaves the question hanging as to how an organization that is not a lodge can be declared "clandestine" by a GM. :RpS_confused:

 

[Brother JC]

As has been mentioned before, if an organization requires members to be Master Masons, then they open themselves to Grand Lodge scrutiny.

 

[Rifleman1776]

As has been mentioned before, if an organization requires members to be Master Masons, then they open themselves to Grand Lodge scrutiny.

I believe that may be debateable. But, in Arkansas, Shrine no longer requires one to be an MM for membership. But the GM is still expelling MMs who participate in Shrine activities. As I said before, the situation is "sad".

 

[Hermias]

Ok brethren, since I don't have a clue as to what a shrine actually is (obviously this doesn't exist in the Southern African region) I would appreciate a short educational introduction?


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App

 

[Rifleman1776]

Ok brethren, since I don't have a clue as to what a shrine actually is (obviously this doesn't exist in the Southern African region) I would appreciate a short educational introduction?


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App

The Shrine, full name: Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine. But now known as Shrine International.
Was originally established in 1870 as a fun organization requiring members to be Masons who had reached the 32nd degree in Scottish Rite or Knight Templar in York Rite. For years all they did was party and parade. At some point in the early 1900s they established clinics then hospitals to provide free orthopedic care for children. In some states, Arkansas being one, the requirement for 32nd degree or KT members was dropped. And, in Arkansas (and maybe one other state, not sure) the MM requirement was dropped. A well known activity and fund raiser is the circus, an annual event in many cities and towns. How such good people (Masons) became the target of the GMs in Arkansas for the past several years is a tragic chapter in Masonic history. We still party and are in parades and we are happy to support our hospitals and help care for children.

 

[dfreybur]

IMHO, that is a perfect definition. But, it still leaves the question hanging as to how an organization that is not a lodge can be declared "clandestine" by a GM.

The only way he can do so is in error. In spite of what specific GMs seem to think there is a long history of GMs being wrong of assorted topics. GMs are supposed to be well versed in Masonry but historically many have only been well versed in blue lodge ritual - Not the same thing. GMs are supposed to be not ruled by bias or pique but historically a number of them have been.

He can use the word clandestine, but that doesn't make his usage correct. In Arkansas, as a direct result of unMasonic actions by the grand line, the Shrine decided to make itself irregular by admitting non-Masons. Do not think for a minute that the blame falls solely on the side of the Arkansas grand line. At the Imperial level the Shrine has been pushing boundaries for many years. This time instead of playing a long term game they encountered blatantly unMasonic treatment and decided to stop playing the game in Arkansas. The year before in South Carolina the Shrine decided to not drop Shriners who are NPD at their blue lodge. I don't know what happened in South Carolina.

I think of what the Shrine did in Arkansas as an experiment. Will I eventually decline to renew my Shrine membership? Not being in Arkansas and being current in my dues at all of my lodges it's not a decision I need to address this year. But the Shrine just keeps pushing. One of these days they'll push too hard in California, Illinois and/or Texas and I will have to address the question. I rarely attend Shrine events so I know the answer, but I rather like being a Shriner.

 

[Hermias]

I believe that may be debateable. But, in Arkansas, Shrine no longer requires one to be an MM for membership. But the GM is still expelling MMs who participate in Shrine activities. As I said before, the situation is "sad".

Thanks. Now I know.


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App

 

[Rifleman1776]

It is hard to understand why you assign blame to the Shrine. Shrine cannot become "irregular" as they never were an appendant body like York or Scottish rites. They are "pushing" nothing. To a man, Shriners want to continue being MMs and communicate with them as Brothers. The situation in Arkansas is nothing short of bizzare. In the incident that preciptated all this mess, the Shriner was at a private function that was neither Masonic or Shrine sponsored. He was not selling alcohol. He was subject to three investigations, one by Grand Lodge, and exonerated every time. Shrine did not "push" anything but only protected itself and it's members. For myself, and many other Shriners we choose to give up MM membership (if needed) to remain Shriners. The philantropy of helping children was the main motivation. And, honestly, the spirit of brothership was/is far stronger in Shrine than in Arkansas Masonry. I eventually was able to join a Missouri Lodge that welcomed me, and many others, very warmly. I will probably bow out of this discussion as it has gone directions I did not intend. I don't want to argue with Brothers. We are no longer examining facts here.