divine authenticity of the Holy Scriptures

[barryguitar]

I would be opposed to that change.
If a candidate can not say that they believe in the divine authenticity of the holy scriptures the interview is over. Their heart is not yet ready to be made a Mason.
It reads perfectly as is.
It is a Landmark.

 

[Sirius]

It is a Landmark.

Bro Barry,

Which landmark do you speak of? Would you mind explaining the value of that question? What value does it have to you? Thank you for your response.

Sonny

 

[JohnnyFlotsam]

I would be opposed to that change.
If a candidate can not say that they believe in the divine authenticity of the holy scriptures the interview is over. Their heart is not yet ready to be made a Mason.
It reads perfectly as is....

Does it really? How does it read for those candidate's whose religion does not include some printed and bound VSL? Are you suggesting that only men of certain religions are suitable to be made Masons?

 

[barryguitar]

It sounds a bit like we are discussing whether or not there is such a thing as a divinely inspired Word of God at all.

I would refer you to our oldest documents such as the Regis manuscript, which clearly lays out the requirement for belief, being strictly Trinitarian in nature. This would exclude Me. Thankfully we have evolved to the point where we are truly accepting of the vast diversity if religious belief.The Law already clearly lays out a reasonable solution to obligating a Mason on his VSL, displayed with the Holy Bible, not in place of.

The declaration that you believe in a Creator God rules out Many so called religions. I would venture to say that it rules out the profession of any religion that has no Volume of Sacred Law. ( please let us know what acceptable religion has no Book)
That the Bible is gods gift to man- is in the ritual, and has always been in the ritual. Belief in it is an essential quality that recommends a Man to be made a mason. Let Me be clear. I welcome the opportunity to sit and work in lodge with any brother of any Religion: Jew, Hindu, Catholic or Methodist, Muslim or LDS or Rastafarian as well as Black or White, but I will not bring to the door any man who denies the Divine Authenticity of the scriptures.

Please define for me what is "an irreligious libertine"

How 'bout this: Someone who is not sure if there is a God, doubts the divine authenticity of the Holy Scriptures, believes whatever they want based on how it makes them "feel", does not think it necessary to seek "the aid of Diety" before entering into their undertakings, or believes that They are equal to God.

No. If we remove G from the square and compasses there is nothing left but tools which have been stripped of their meaning.

 

[rhitland]

Deism is just such a religion.

 

[peace out]

Rhitland, would you be responding to post #24 or 25?

 

[JohnnyFlotsam]

Deism is just such a religion.

...to name but one. There are many systems of spiritual belief that have no written collection of dogma, but nevertheless have very well defined "laws" that a Mason might use as "the rule and guide" of his faith. Moreover, some of those religions hold a decidedly different view on how "morality" is defined, placing a much higher importance on the individual's responsibility to actively seek out and do "the right thing" because it is right, rather than blindly obeying a list of proscriptions out of fear of Divine retribution. I find the thought of a Brother who is willing to bind himself to that law to be very well qualified, but that's just me. The point is that we are asking our candidates to make a meaningful promise to us. Whatever object provides that meaning should be fine with us.

 

[JohnnyFlotsam]

The declaration that you believe in a Creator God rules out Many so called religions. I would venture to say that it rules out the profession of any religion that has no Volume of Sacred Law. ( please let us know what acceptable religion has no Book)

Please, where is there a list of "acceptable religions"?

 

[Traveling Man]

Please, where is there a list of "acceptable religions"?

And that's the point; there is no list of "acceptable religions". (Or it should be the point).

I liked the summations of posts 28 & 29.

Note: the following posit does not conform to our standard or conventions but was relayed through a discussion on another (closed) private international Masonic group…

Let’s say the candidate is a deist and has no proscribed VSL but took the obl. upon a book called “The White Book”, which contains no printing? As it was explained to me; "the book contains that which is embedded upon his soul and that declares by all that is holy…"

I didn’t mean to derail this discussion but just wanted to add some interesting information.

 

[Christopher]

I would just point out that about 45% of Jews self-identify as Reform Jews and in general, Reform Jews don't believe the Tanakh to be divinely inspired. Conservative Jews make up another 45% and while more conservative in their opinions, still, in general, don't believe the Tanakh to be divinely inspired. So, about 90% of Jews would not conform to the Protestant Christian notion of Scriptural inspiration and infallibility but I've yet to meet anyone who would bar a Jew from becoming a Mason.

 

[peace out]

Great post Christopher.

Again, divinely inspired, divine, deity, and holy scriptures can be seen as very broad terms, while others will very narrowly define them. Yet, others will concede broad definitions of some while narrowly defining others.

For example. One can say God is not necessarily defined as the God of Abraham, Holy Scriptures is not specifically the Holy Bible (KJV), but divinely inspired specifically means a book written by God through man. With such a definition, many may be alienated from masonry.

 

[Traveling Man]

Please define for me what is "an irreligious libertine"

The irreligious libertine
Source: Palmetto Mason stupid atheist and irreligious libertine


…an irreligious libertine.

This may be the most confusing of the phases due to the fact that the use and intent of the word “libertine” has changed very much over the years. Using the intent of the words in the 1720s; an irreligious libertine is a person who does not believe that he is responsible for his own moral – or immoral – behavior. He is morally irresponsible.

So let us now put this sentence from the first Old Charge into more modern words.

A Mason is obligated, while he remains a Mason, to be a man of good morals, and if he truly comprehends the teachings of Freemasonry, he will not be handicapped by subscribing to atheism and he will not be morally irresponsible

 

[dbindel]

If we remove G from the square and compasses there is nothing left but tools which have been stripped of their meaning.

Brother, I'm afraid that is a quite ignorant statement. I dare you to make that claim to any Brother under the United Grand Lodge of England or many of its descendants throughout the world. For them, the emblem of our Fraternity is the Square and Compasses and rarely includes a G!

 

[rhitland]

I have read in numerous places that a jewler in the 40's made the G in the S&Q famous. I would have to look for the cite as I stumble across it. I have read as well the Yod is placed there.

 

[Sirius]

This has been an interesting discussion. I have yet to determine the value of the question, "do you believe in the divine authenticity of the holy scriptures?" Especially since we say it means what you want it to mean. How does a mans acknowledgment of a holy book recommend a man to made a Mason? It does not. Which is why most regular Grand Lodges do not ask this question.

For some men, their maturity did not begin until they found some religious truth as reviled in a holy book. But Masonry is a philosophy not a religion. Nor does it embrace any religion.

We may use the Bible, King Solomon, the Temple as symbols for our own purposes, but that does not mean we embrace two whole religions and all of their denominations. But the question on the petition regarding divine authenticity implies that we do.

 

[Jamesb]

I just have a problem with "Authenticity" it implies that God has given it the stamp of approval, somehow

 

[Sirius]

I just have a problem with "Authenticity" it implies that God has given it the stamp of approval, somehow

Exactly. What business is it of ours to say what God approves of? That sounds like the role of religion.

 

[JohnnyFlotsam]

Exactly. What business is it of ours to say what God approves of? That sounds like the role of religion.

Exactly!
Assuming, for the moment, that the wording was not a thinly-veiled attempt to inject a particular collection of religious scripture into Freemasonry, the notion that we must take as "authentic" some collection of stories about things religious is troubling. There are religions wherein the only real dogma is the idea that the "revealed will" of the Creator can only be arrived at by personal experience. Within such a belief system, the suggestion that "all the answers" could be found in a book would be, well... absurd.

I recently attended a Raising, and near the end of the evening I witnessed the most beautifully delivered Masonic lecture I've ever heard. It was a part of the Bible presentation. The Brother doing the presentation was a beautifully gifted speaker and the presentation was rich with meaningful content; meaningful for a Christian, that is. As beautiful as the presentation was and as powerful was it's impact on our new Brother Master Mason, I could not help but be struck by the question, "What if he was not a Christian?" What would he be presented with instead? Would the lecture have been delivered with the same extraordinary level of enthusiasm and skill? I don't know the answer, but I do know that any disparity in that area is a failing if we truly believe in the importance of a Mason's chosen VoSL. I do believe in that importance and I would have every Brother receive such a gift, in such a beautiful and powerful presentation, as far as it is in our power to do so.

 

[owls84]

At 148 for some time we have not had a Bible Presentation for this reason. We asked ourself this question. Don't get me wrong we offer them if the candidate chooses but we have other options as well. Stuff like a Lodge Polo etc.

 

[dhouseholder]

The Brother doing the presentation was a beautifully gifted speaker and the presentation was rich with meaningful content; meaningful for a Christian, that is. As beautiful as the presentation was and as powerful was it's impact on our new Brother Master Mason, I could not help but be struck by the question, "What if he was not a Christian?" What would he be presented with instead? Would the lecture have been delivered with the same extraordinary level of enthusiasm and skill?

I believe that the Bible Presentation as given in the GLoT Monitor is sufficiently non-denominational as such, it focuses on the concept that within that book are some pretty good ideas on how to live your life, regardless of what you may believe.

As far as the divine authenticity thing, it seems as though one can construe that statement to mean a lot of different things. THAT is the beauty of Freemasonry! We all, as Masons, know that there are some good things in the Bible and should we use it as a guide to our faith, we can't go wrong. The beautifully ambiguous part here is WHAT part we should use. We stay silent on that. For good reason.