do I believe that an atheist and/or agnostic person should be made a Mason? The answer is a simple "no".
To me those statements appear contradictory. What place do you believe that atheists/agnostics have in our Craft?I personally, do believe that atheists/agnostics have a place in our Craft.
I believe that there is a distinction between an atheist and agnostic person, pertaining to the requirement. The answer here is "yes".
I DO NOT REPEAT NOT BELIEVE THAT ATHEISTS/AGNOSTICS HAVE A PLACE IN OUR CRAFT.
I consider being present at Brother Dreyfuss initiation to be the high point of my Masonic career.
Do you believe that there is a distinction between agnostic and atheist as it pertains to the requirement for a belief in a Supreme Being?
I believe that there is a distinction between an atheist and agnostic person, pertaining to the requirement. The answer here is "yes".
Can you explain what that distinction is?
Then why create a thread asking for Brothers to share on that very thing? Your posts are very confused.coachn said: ↑
If you want to change the Masonic experience, then you best focus upon first practicing Masonry and not getting distracted by having the organization involved in things that are related but not directed toward Masonry's purpose.
---I have little interest in changing the Masonic (and appendant bodies) experience.
MAY?!?!?!This may sound strange, but it is a fact.
And none of this will change the masonic experience you have no interest changing? Very confused indeed! If this would not CHANGE the EXPERIENCE, why bring it up at all? It's off topic according to you.I would like very much to see more use of modern technology. I would like to see more daylight lodges, to accommodate our aging population and shift workers. I would like to see more care and support for our Masonic widows.
So, you are of the opinion that one MUST have a Lodge to practice Masonry then? That sounds like Freemasonry not Masonry.... I am out in the Kuwaiti desert. There are no lodges here, and I have only met one other Mason, since I have been in country. It is virtually impossible to practice any Masonry here, so there is no point in telling me to do the impossible.
Did I ever say that?coachn said: ↑ The Society as a whole doesn't even begin to do what it should be doing and instead redirects the attention of its members toward things that are "nice" but not its primary purpose.
--Since when is Masonry a "society"?
Me Too!I have never found it to be so.
Things having nothing to do with the business of the lodge.What are these things that members are being "redirected" towards?
The Primary Purpose is: Making (as in "initiating") Masons by putting them through plays called "rituals".What do think should be its "primary purpose"?
The aim is as stated previously. There is nothing more to it, unless you wish to add things that distract men from this activity.coachn said: ↑ The presented opportunities for further distraction and the motivation for further distraction are evidence that some members still think the purpose is anything but what members should be focusing upon.
--Fill us in. If you think that Masonry is not focusing on the proper "targets", then where should we "aim". It sounds to me, like you are more interested in changing the Masonic experience, than you admit to.
Great questions. I already have done so and have made absolutely no changes in the organization whatsoever. If you are interested, follow the links in my signature to see what I have conveyed.coachn said: ↑
The "basics" aren't even known much less understood. They are not running meetings or degrees. They re not minutes or treasury reports. They are not fundraising to compensate for low dues. They are not improving attendance or the "freemasonic" experience, not to be confused with the "Masonic" experience.
--OK! Then what? How would you convey these "basics", without making any changes?
coachn said: ↑
None of these things are the basics of Masonry. None of these things contribute to making a good man better. The society as a whole has no clue how to do this, yet they fight vehemently to preserve codes that are the very thing that they need to pay attention to and follow to better the existing members.
--Most masons fight to preserve the "status quo". More effort is expended on stopping any new idea, or modernizing our administrative procedures, than are spent on any other endeavour.
All of which can and should be done outside of the Freemasonic Organization so that they can focus on their primary purpose - Initiating members - with some possible hope that one day they shall also apply themselves toward cultivating actual Mastery.coachn said: ↑
Go ahead and throw ideas at the wall or the fan or in the air. Until those ideas have anything to do with bettering the members of the organization directly, and making them into Builders, you're distracting them from Masonry's purpose.
--I am delighted to discuss new ideas and projects. The Shrine was a social club for over 50 years, before someone suggested that a hospital needed to be opened in Shreveport, Louisiana in 1922. I am sure that the hospital program "distracted" from the purposes of the Shrine. I am also certain that the thousands of children who have been treated in the hospitals are grateful for this distraction.
In Kentucky, there was a Masonic orphan's home. The Grand Lodge determined that the need could be better served in other venues, so the orphan home program was discontinued.
As we discussed previously, there are over 100 appendant/concordant bodies. (If you count the clandestine and international organizations). The wide majority of Masonically-affiliated charitable activities occur in the appendant/concordant bodies. (IMHO- This is by far the best way to administer and promote these programs).
I have taken the liberty of pulling this idea out and starting a new thread. I hope that everyone who has shared on this topic will take a look at it.So I will clarify, In my opinion Freemasonry requires that a man reply with an unequivocal affirmative response to the question: Do you believe in a Supreme Being? Neither an agnostic or atheist can do that, so what do you see as the distinction between them in answering that question?
Then why create a thread asking for Brothers to share on that very thing? Your posts are very confused.
--Read the title of this thread carefully. The operative word is YOU Y-O-U. I am interested in finding out what other Masons would like to see changed. I know that none of my ideas are ever going to see reality, Masons do not believe in change. This thread is for discussion purposes only. All of my ideas are "pipe dreams", even "crack pipe dreams". ALL are fantasy, none will see reality. Masonry will not change.
MAY?!?!?!
And none of this will change the masonic experience you have no interest changing? Very confused indeed! If this would not CHANGE the EXPERIENCE, why bring it up at all? It's off topic according to you.
--See the above.
So, you are of the opinion that one MUST have a Lodge to practice Masonry then? That sounds like Freemasonry not Masonry.
--I have found it easier to practice masonry in a group setting. Either in a lodge or in a "square and compass" club.
Did I ever say that?
Me Too!
Things having nothing to do with the business of the lodge.
The Primary Purpose is: Making (as in "initiating") Masons by putting them through plays called "rituals".
What it should be: Cultivating Members toward Mastery.
The aim is as stated previously. There is nothing more to it, unless you wish to add things that distract men from this activity.
Great questions. I already have done so and have made absolutely no changes in the organization whatsoever. If you are interested, follow the links in my signature to see what I have conveyed.
Yup. Business as usual for sure.
All of which can and should be done outside of the Freemasonic Organization so that they can focus on their primary purpose - Initiating members - with some possible hope that one day they shall also apply themselves toward cultivating actual Mastery.
I have, repeatedly. You seem to be contributing quite a few ideas all targeting change.coachn said: ↑
Then why create a thread asking for Brothers to share on that very thing? Your posts are very confused.
--Read the title of this thread carefully.
Masons do not believe in change.
Yup. I concur.This thread is for discussion purposes only. All of my ideas are "pipe dreams", even "crack pipe dreams".
Masonry doesn't have to. It is designed to change members, not itself.ALL are fantasy, none will see reality. Masonry will not change.
To each his own then. You have not addressed the question however.coachn said: ↑ So, you are of the opinion that one MUST have a Lodge to practice Masonry then? That sounds like Freemasonry not Masonry.
--I have found it easier to practice masonry in a group setting. Either in a lodge or in a "square and compass" club.
You have failed to comprehend what I have written. There is the purpose that is currently being served, which is what you immediately grabbed hold of. Then there is the purpose that you asked me about having to do with what I thought is should be. Your response shows that you did not read and understand what I wrote. Which makes me wonder if you have studied any of the trivium.coachn said: ↑ The Primary Purpose is: Making (as in "initiating") Masons by putting them through plays called "rituals".
What it should be: Cultivating Members toward Mastery.
The aim is as stated previously. There is nothing more to it, unless you wish to add things that distract men from this activity.
Great questions. I already have done so and have made absolutely no changes in the organization whatsoever. If you are interested, follow the links in my signature to see what I have conveyed.
Yup. Business as usual for sure.
All of which can and should be done outside of the Freemasonic Organization so that they can focus on their primary purpose - Initiating members - with some possible hope that one day they shall also apply themselves toward cultivating actual Mastery.
---If you think that the primary purpose of Freemasonry is to initiate new members, then we are failing miserably.
It is only Freemasonry that is losing members. Masonry continually reaps this benefit when its members realize the society is not practicing what it preaches and go off on their own to seek these ends outside the organization.Masonry is LOSING members.
I fail to see how such comments would ever be the focus of any of your hate mail.(Not all Masons believe this, you should see the hate mail I get!)
<snicker> Great analogy.One man wrote me ,complaining about the "flood gates being open". I answered him, saying that the flood gates are indeed open, just that the membership is flooding OUT!
If I am not mistaken the one day class is the same as making a Mason on Sight, as you need a special dispensation from the Grand Master to have a one day class. Please correct me if I am wrong in this.
Masonry is not going to see any major changes, not it the organizational structure, and not in the administrative procedures. If you could just see the fury which Masons employ to fight change, you would be impressed.
You left out all your efforts to establish a Masonic "employment bureau" and what about your efforts to get Masonic license plates and your advocacy for a
"national" GL.
If I was as discontented with Masonry as you appear to be, I would resign.